Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)

[mikeyd23]

What you are saying makes sense.  To reframe what I am saying does NOT make sense to me is this:  I understand intellectually what #2 means.  But I cannot conceptualize why #2 is a thing people can or should realistically expect from a drummer--ANY drummer--who has been playing this long.  Again, it generally just doesn't happen.

I'm tracking with you. I think with drums, this typically is hard, especially drummers with long careers. That said - I think guys like Mike Mangini and Virgil Donati are examples of guys who continue to work on their craft, practice new techniques, and push themselves physically and mentally. That shines through in their playing in small ways sometimes, but it does show.

[bill1971]

Oh, I know.  Your post made sense.  Mine was in response to the two before yours (and others that have said the same thing).  It's just that you posted yours while I was typing, so mine just happened to fall after yours in the thread.

It's hard to explain, but for me there are two separate things (1) enjoying MP's drumming and (2) finding his drumming to be innovative, fresh, forward-progressing.

Generally speaking I enjoy MP's drumming. I just don't think he's been doing number two for a long time, that's all. Part of it might be what Stads touched on, the fact that after SDOIT, MP found himself (by his choice or others) playing on records that were arguably more "defined" - a metal record, a classic prog record, etc... Maybe the diversity of the music on an album like SDOIT made or enabled Mike to be more innovative and fresh.

What you are saying makes sense.  To reframe what I am saying does NOT make sense to me is this:  I understand intellectually what #2 means.  But I cannot conceptualize why #2 is a thing people can or should realistically expect from a drummer--ANY drummer--who has been playing this long.  Again, it generally just doesn't happen.

Neil Peart has been playing far longer than MP and he always grew as a drummer and had unique and interesting drum parts. Perhaps it's a creativity  rather than skill issue. MP is obviously skilled but his creativity is just not there anymore. Just listen to Neil's drum solos vs MP's. Neil is well crafted and is a musical journey but MP's were very boring. I thought so going way back when I was high on the MP band wagon.

[MoraWintersoul]

My opinion of the album (that it's some interesting sections on top of beige metal with beige lyrics) is doubtlessly influenced by the circumstances of its release. Those circumstances aren't Derek repeating an unfunny joke a million times because he thinks he's struck a nerve, or the bravado, or how it's not on trend and how their promo pics are lame or any other theory. I am partial to the saturation theory myself.

Let's face it, Mike has taken his sweet ass time to come out with a permanent prog metal project, and in the mean time he has played prog and metal and rock and played with everyone who is everyone. Every one of those albums was THE BEST HE'S EVER DONE and THE MOST FUN HE'S HAD with THE BEST LINEUP. Now that he's announcing that this is definitely the thing and the best... it's not. It's not the best prog he's done since DT, it's not the first time he worked with DS or BS. Soto is an extremely competent singer, but he's probably the least best (lol) singer MP has worked with since 1992. It's not the most time he's taken to write and record and polish, and probably not the most passionate he's been - and all of that shows in the material. And the promo cycle just pointed all of that out and reminded me of it every time I heard a new song.

Yes, I might be a moron for expecting more than just a project but MP always used to speak some measure of truth alongside the hyping up he does. He was always the one to tell us what aspects of DT albums he would have done differently, or which stuff he doesn't like. Ever since he left everything has been the best ever and it's done the opposite of hyping me up. It's almost like there's a marriage analogy hidden in here about a guy who dates a string of amaaaazing GFs to rebound from his ex wife and now that he finds another steady GF... heh.

[Madman Shepherd]

I'll say for the Xth time that I really don't get the criticism of Mike's drumming.  I just don't comprehend it.  I mean, I get that it is more or less the same as what we've heard.  But I mean I don't get it as a criticism.  He's a drummer.  The vast majority of drummers don't change or evolve their style much over time.  And even when they do add some new things, due to the nature of the instrument, it often times isn't going to sound "new" even in those circumstances.  Maybe I'm missing something, but it just seems to me that you either like Mike's drumming or you don't.  And if you did and you've lost interest over time, then that's really not on him, and it just is what it is.

Gotta agree with Bosk to an extent. A while back I made the same observation with Derek's keyboard sound. If you're a guitar player you seem to get a pass because guitars are sometimes supposed to sound quiet and sometimes loud and distorted. With Derek he relies on a lot of the same sounds which is more or less what guitarists do but people are more critical of Derek because they think he's supposed to have a million more sounds.

With drummers there's only so much you can do. Mike has already done most of it which is way more than a lot of drummers.

On that same token, when he repeats similar unique patterns I'm tempted to call him out for desperately trying to recapture the past because that's the same decency he afforded dream theater.  As it stands, in one of the SoA songs he uses a pattern very close to what he uses in John Arch's song Relentless. It happens to be my favorite portnoy performance ever so I'm actually ok with it. But like I said, many people here are only being as hard on mike as he has been on other people in the past so in a way he's earned that karma. He doesn't help himself any more by bragging about how he doesn't care about music theory and practicing.

Then again, my favorite band of all time is Black Sabbath so I don't mind repetition. If it sounds good, It's good.

[eric42434224]

It's a fair criticism of MP.  He should be innovating sounds, styles, techniques on every release.  Sounding the same every time is not acceptable at this level of Prog.  Look at the threads lambasting John Myung for the same sound every album.....oh wait.

[theshatteredfortress]

OK, I will talk about the actual album.  I'm aware of the promos & interviews etc.......but I just purchased the album through iTunes and I'd like to share my thoughts so far. 

With this reply, I'd like to focus on the music rather than the personality of this guy or that guy or the things that he said or did etc...... 

First of all I will say that I REALLY LIKE the album so far.  That might change over the course of the next days.  Here are the songs I've heard so far:

God Of The Sun: I absolutely like this one because it is a song that is unpredictable (9/10 as of now).

Coming Home: I don't really like this one because the tempo slows down throughout the song (5/10 as of now).

Signs Of The Times: this one also have the «problem» of slowing down at the end of the song.........BUT from the middle of the song that's where the Prog Element shows itself and the song becomes really big (9/10 as of now).

Labyrinth: another long song that seems a lot shorter than it is which is a good sign in my book (8/10 as of now).

Alive: this one is a good one I think because it shows a more mellow side to the band which I liked on the first listen (7/10 as of now).

So that's it for the moment.  I will vote later on when I'll have listened to the whole album at least a few times.

So far my impression is that it's the next logical step from Black Clouds & Silver Linings, kind of like a futuristic Dream Theater.

Tx

[KevShmev]

This is probably the most telling for my part: After the release of Sons of Apollo, I've not listened once. Not because it's bad, but it's just not memorable enough for me. If you pressed me to sing a song right now, i think the only part I would be able to sing is the chorus to Alive...

That is always a telling point for me as well: if I like something a lot, I listen to it a lot.

Granted, I do not own this CD, and have no urge to seek out the mp3s "elsewhere," so YT is the only place I can hear it, but I have no urge to revisit any of the songs that are on YT (which is most of them). 

[mikeyd23]

It's a fair criticism of MP.  He should be innovating sounds, styles, techniques on every release.  Sounding the same every time is not acceptable at this level of Prog.  Look at the threads lambasting John Myung for the same sound every album.....oh wait.

Actually, for the last few DT releases, we have had quite a bit of discussion around JMX's tendency to mirror JP's guitar parts and not really shape his own unique lines. In comparison to the early DT albums where he was far more creative in terms of establishing memorable bass lines that stood on their own, separate of the heavy guitar tracks.

[Stadler]

It's a fair criticism of MP.  He should be innovating sounds, styles, techniques on every release.  Sounding the same every time is not acceptable at this level of Prog.  Look at the threads lambasting John Myung for the same sound every album.....oh wait.

Actually, for the last few DT releases, we have had quite a bit of discussion around JMX's tendency to mirror JP's guitar parts and not really shape his own unique lines. In comparison to the early DT albums where he was far more creative in terms of establishing memorable bass lines that stood on their own, separate of the heavy guitar tracks.

To the extent you can even hear him.   As a general rule, he's not usually mixed like Steve Harris, Chris Squire or Geddy Lee. 

[mikeyd23]

It's a fair criticism of MP.  He should be innovating sounds, styles, techniques on every release.  Sounding the same every time is not acceptable at this level of Prog.  Look at the threads lambasting John Myung for the same sound every album.....oh wait.

Actually, for the last few DT releases, we have had quite a bit of discussion around JMX's tendency to mirror JP's guitar parts and not really shape his own unique lines. In comparison to the early DT albums where he was far more creative in terms of establishing memorable bass lines that stood on their own, separate of the heavy guitar tracks.

To the extent you can even hear him.   As a general rule, he's not usually mixed like Steve Harris, Chris Squire or Geddy Lee.

True and that varies from record to record depending on the production, but it also doesn't help that he has had a tendency to match JP's rhythm guitar either.

I was simply pointing out that it's a comparable talking point and it's definitely been discussed.

[Skeever]

Still very curious - how did the album sell?

[eric42434224]

It's a fair criticism of MP.  He should be innovating sounds, styles, techniques on every release.  Sounding the same every time is not acceptable at this level of Prog.  Look at the threads lambasting John Myung for the same sound every album.....oh wait.

Actually, for the last few DT releases, we have had quite a bit of discussion around JMX's tendency to mirror JP's guitar parts and not really shape his own unique lines. In comparison to the early DT albums where he was far more creative in terms of establishing memorable bass lines that stood on their own, separate of the heavy guitar tracks.

To the extent you can even hear him.   As a general rule, he's not usually mixed like Steve Harris, Chris Squire or Geddy Lee.

True and that varies from record to record depending on the production, but it also doesn't help that he has had a tendency to match JP's rhythm guitar either.

I was simply pointing out that it's a comparable talking point and it's definitely been discussed.

I was being facetious, so I really didn't know about discussions regarding Myung.  But I can't think they were as often or harsh as is done with Portnoy.  But when I thought about it, some of that might be Mikes responsibility.  From the things he has said to the sheer number of albums he puts out, certainly might put him in the crosshairs more.  If you have less than positive sound bites and interviews out there, along with the constant barrage of new music, I can see fans getting  fatigued....and it might be very fair for said fan to ask for more diversity in his playing.

[RodrigoAltaf]

I too miss Myung's more creative basslines, especially like the ones he did on WDADU...but it also seems like the production hurts his sound like hell. Hear how beautiful he can sound, even when doubling the guitar parts, if the production/mixing favours him:

https://youtu.be/rGb7CFlmJ7E

[erwinrafael]

I'll say for the Xth time that I really don't get the criticism of Mike's drumming.  I just don't comprehend it.  I mean, I get that it is more or less the same as what we've heard.  But I mean I don't get it as a criticism.  He's a drummer.  The vast majority of drummers don't change or evolve their style much over time.  And even when they do add some new things, due to the nature of the instrument, it often times isn't going to sound "new" even in those circumstances.  Maybe I'm missing something, but it just seems to me that you either like Mike's drumming or you don't.  And if you did and you've lost interest over time, then that's really not on him, and it just is what it is.

Think about it this way. Compare the following works of MP that are several years apart:

Train of Thought
BC&SL
Psychotic Symphony

You really won't hear much of a difference in the drumming in these albums. I would contend that almost all of MP's techniques in these albums, you would pretty much hear as variations of The Glass Prison and Blind Faith. And even for those two songs, you could already trace the style in Peruvian Skies and Trial of Tears.

Now let's compare for example with Mangini. Compare Elements of Persuasion and ADTOE. The snare and bass technique plus the lefty to righty shifts are retained but the difference in the orchestration is substantial. ADTOE is really MM's first time to showcase how he can support so many instruments at once.

But it doesn't stop there. Compare ADTOE with DT12. The difference again is susbstantial. You now hear for the first time those drum fills that use almost the whole kit. Then there are new polyrhythm combinations, most prominent in IT and Enigma Machine. And most important new technique is MM using two hi-hats or two rides at the same time, which are most prominent in TLG instrumental, in STR first stanza, and in the IT first stanza and chorus. He would incorporate that technique in The Astonishing and in the current IW&B tour, most noticeable in Take The Time.

But it still doesn't stop there. Compare DT12 with TA. SwingJazz blastebeats in Thee Days. Simultaneous snare rolls in Astonishing. Playing the ride with one hand while doing a melodic tom pattern with the other in Dystopian Overture. Then the whole The Walking Shadow. Those are things we haven't heard before.

I could do the same thing with Virgil Donati and Marco Minnemann. But the point is, Portnoy is a talented drummer but he really stopped growing with SDOIT. After that, he is just recombining old stuff. Still fun to play, but if you're a drummer, everything would really be familiar.

[bosk1]

I understand all of that.  Again, I just don't understand why it is a criticism.  It's like criticizing John Petrucci for not playing bluegrass.  Yeah, you can rightly point out that he doesn't.  And you can rightly point out that he has been playing guitar since the late '70s and STILL apparently refuses to branch out and play bluegrass so many years later.  But so what?

[Adami]

I understand all of that.  Again, I just don't understand why it is a criticism.  It's like criticizing John Petrucci for not playing bluegrass.  Yeah, you can rightly point out that he doesn't.  And you can rightly point out that he has been playing guitar since the late '70s and STILL apparently refuses to branch out and play bluegrass so many years later.  But so what?

Because it's a novelty. Those aren't just fills or beats. They are Portnoyisms. When someone wants to sound/play like Portnoy, they do exactly what he did on the SoA album. So when you have those very specific mannerisms repeated over and over and over, they tend to stand out a lot more. At least that's how it is for me. It would be like if LaBrie hit the F# in every single song. Eventually it gets annoying because it's a very specific thing and when it's repeated SO much, it can be annoying.

Not sure if any of that helps. If not, then I'll just say that Stadler is a liar and see where that takes me.

[erwinrafael]

It's not about JP playing bluegrass. It's about him still coming up with new catchy riffs and new melodic solos that still sound fresh after the years of guitar playing. Based on The Astonishing, he still can.

Can we say the same of MP and his drum patterns and fills? No. The first thing that comes to mind when I hear him now is "I have heard this before." Before, I looked at it as a positive. Few drummers have a signature sound that is instantly recognizeable. But now, I don't view it positively anymore because it's now sounding like a crutch instead of a signature.

[TAC]

I understand all of that.  Again, I just don't understand why it is a criticism.   

Bosk, I actually agree with you, and you've done a good job of helping me understand why I hate people saying "same old MP".

I think MP reached a certain level, and now he just wants to play drums in a band. It's not about exploration or drilling down into some ridiculous technique for him. His motivations are just different than Mangini or Minneman.  That's ok.
 

[ganpondorodf]

I made a similar point once before; 'prog' doesn't really mean 'progressive' anymore, in the same way that an 'indie' band can be on a major label. It grew to refer to a particular style and sound and not necessarily the ideology behind it. Portnoy wants (occasionally) to play prog, but he's not interested in being progressive in the literal sense of exploring new styles or fusions thereof. And that's fine! Sons of Apollo is still boring to me though.

[Madman Shepherd]

Good points all around.  Especially ganpondorodf and erwinrafael.  I can totally understand why MP may bore you guys as of late.  But for someone like me that can't play drums but still has enough musical knowledge to examine those things, Mike's lack of improvement doesn't matter *that* much.  I still prefer Mangini as a drummer (and a personality) but Portnoy's portnoyisms aren't much of a turnoff at all.  Of course, had he spent some more time improving his craft then maybe it would make the music more exciting.  SoA is the only thing he has done post-DT that even remotely interests me. 

[erwinrafael]

A confounding factor is that MP handles his drums like a lead instrument, ala Peart, Donati, and Bozzio. This is opposed to amazing drummers who drum as a rhythm player, like Mangini, Bruford and Alan White. Because of this, MP's lack of "arsenal" is more noticeable because he is very up front.

This doesn't mean that he never played good drums. It just means that a song needs to be written around the Portnoyisms to make them brilliant. Stream of Consciousness, Panic Attack, Constant Motion are examples of these.

Given the lack of new fills and combos, I wish MP would go back to what made Awake my favorite MP record: his ability to make distinct drum patterns for each song. In Awake, each song, eavh section, is marked by a signature pattern. This is something MP sort of "forgot" after becoming reliant on the Portnoyisms. It's the rrason why my favorite drumming in Psychotic Symphony is that simple intro and verse pattern to Signs of the Times. Very catchy and very distinct.

[portnoy311]

My thing is that MP has really serious holes in his playing that get exposed when he does different types of music. His playing is very flat without any real sense of groove or feel, or really much dynamics. He has chops, sure, but claiming to be a 'musical chameleon' and then playing the same flat way in bands calling for very different types of feeling and groove just doesn't cut it for me.

[KevShmev]

As I have said before, while I agree that Portnoy's playing is very samey and predictable, my enjoyment of it is directly correlated to how good the music around it is.

If the songs are great, like on The Similitude of a Dream, I enjoy his playing a ton.

If the songs are bland, like on the Sons of Apollo record, his drumming stands out in a "been there, heard this" kind of way. 

Seems like nowadays you can almost air drum to some of his parts the first time hearing a song because you just know what is coming.

Given the fact that he admits that he doesn't practice anymore, it kind of just seems like he arrives in the studio and reaches into his usual grab bag.  Nothing wrong that since, like has been said before, he does a lot of things extremely well, but it's kind of disappointing to see such an accomplished musician rest on his laurels and take the "I've done enough" approach to his playing.

[Madman Shepherd]

My thing is that MP has really serious holes in his playing that get exposed when he does different types of music. His playing is very flat without any real sense of groove or feel, or really much dynamics.

Always drives me nuts when people say he plays with more "feel" as if a more technically inclined drummer like Mangini doesn't have any feel (he does).  Interesting to hear someone say Portnoy doesn't have much feel.  I wouldn't go that far but I do think the idea that he plays with more feel is way over-exaggerated. 

[erwinrafael]

Portnoy's drumming has feel when he composes the parts well. Just listen to Peruvian Skies.

[emtee]

I can't jump on the anti-Portnoy bandwagon in terms of his playing.

The man is an elite drummer with a catalog of recorded music that he should be proud of. Do I think that he would benefit from
taking longer to create his parts? Yes. But his studio work is flawless.

I think some people need to ask themselves a serious question. Do you hold Portnoy to a different standard? Do you expect every
drummer to bring in a wheelbarrow of new ideas on every recording? If so, fine, then go ahead and expect that from him too. But
if not, just appreciate his raw talents.

In some regard, though I'm sure he wishes now it weren't true, MP created this 'expectation' during his tenure with DT and has
mentioned it during interviews. He knew the fans expected something more on every album and it was a lot of pressure for him.

[mikeyd23]

I think some people need to ask themselves a serious question. Do you hold Portnoy to a different standard? Do you expect every
drummer to bring in a wheelbarrow of new ideas on every recording? If so, fine, then go ahead and expect that from him too. But
if not, just appreciate his raw talents.

Honestly yes, I do. Because....

The man is an elite drummer with a catalog of recorded music that he should be proud of. Do I think that he would benefit from
taking longer to create his parts? Yes. But his studio work is flawless.

Therefore, expectations are higher.

[The Curious Orange]

I thought MP's playing on the SoA album was some off the best he's done for many a year. There's little drum fills in there that really show off how good he is.

Do I think he's as good as he used to be? No, he's gotten lazy. But he's still a highly listenable drummer.

But I wish he'd stop riding that fucking cymbal. I want to snatch it off him and ram it up his arse.

[The Walrus]

But I wish he'd stop riding that fucking cymbal. I want to snatch it off him and ram it up his arse.

Is that why they call it a ride cymbal?

[mikeyd23]

I thought MP's playing on the SoA album was some off the best he's done for many a year. There's little drum fills in there that really show off how good he is.

Do I think he's as good as he used to be? No, he's gotten lazy. But he's still a highly listenable drummer.

But I wish he'd stop riding that fucking cymbal. I want to snatch it off him and ram it up his arse.

Once again, I don't think anyone here is saying he isn't "listenable", heck he's still one of my favorite drummers. We are just pointing out that he stopped growing and evolving as a player a long, long time ago - and that's okay. I'm not saying he needs to do anything different. Just observing and commenting.

[Stadler]

I'll say for the Xth time that I really don't get the criticism of Mike's drumming.  I just don't comprehend it.  I mean, I get that it is more or less the same as what we've heard.  But I mean I don't get it as a criticism.  He's a drummer.  The vast majority of drummers don't change or evolve their style much over time.  And even when they do add some new things, due to the nature of the instrument, it often times isn't going to sound "new" even in those circumstances.  Maybe I'm missing something, but it just seems to me that you either like Mike's drumming or you don't.  And if you did and you've lost interest over time, then that's really not on him, and it just is what it is.

Think about it this way. Compare the following works of MP that are several years apart:

Train of Thought
BC&SL
Psychotic Symphony

You really won't hear much of a difference in the drumming in these albums. I would contend that almost all of MP's techniques in these albums, you would pretty much hear as variations of The Glass Prison and Blind Faith. And even for those two songs, you could already trace the style in Peruvian Skies and Trial of Tears.

Now let's compare for example with Mangini. Compare Elements of Persuasion and ADTOE. The snare and bass technique plus the lefty to righty shifts are retained but the difference in the orchestration is substantial. ADTOE is really MM's first time to showcase how he can support so many instruments at once.

But it doesn't stop there. Compare ADTOE with DT12. The difference again is susbstantial. You now hear for the first time those drum fills that use almost the whole kit. Then there are new polyrhythm combinations, most prominent in IT and Enigma Machine. And most important new technique is MM using two hi-hats or two rides at the same time, which are most prominent in TLG instrumental, in STR first stanza, and in the IT first stanza and chorus. He would incorporate that technique in The Astonishing and in the current IW&B tour, most noticeable in Take The Time.

But it still doesn't stop there. Compare DT12 with TA. SwingJazz blastebeats in Thee Days. Simultaneous snare rolls in Astonishing. Playing the ride with one hand while doing a melodic tom pattern with the other in Dystopian Overture. Then the whole The Walking Shadow. Those are things we haven't heard before.

I could do the same thing with Virgil Donati and Marco Minnemann. But the point is, Portnoy is a talented drummer but he really stopped growing with SDOIT. After that, he is just recombining old stuff. Still fun to play, but if you're a drummer, everything would really be familiar.

But some of that isn't apples to apples.  I'm not a drummer, but since it was widely reported that the level of contribution from Mangini in crafting the parts on ADTOE and 12 were very different, I'm not sure the "differences" are solely attributable to Mangini's creative superiority. 

And at the end of the day, to what end?   I sat in the theater for The Astonishing first waiting for intermission to get a beer, then waiting to see if we were getting anything special for the encore.  I sat in TSOAD with tears in my eyes watching every note, hearing every word.    I watched every minute of Shattered Fortress, watching each moment those musicians took.   The point here isn't to downplay the drumming - I get that this discussion is about that, not the music itself - but it is to say that "dual handed reverse paradiddles in 16/13 time played in conjunction with blastbeats in 9/12 time" isn't the only way to further the craft or be creative.   It's also a fair statement to say that songs like Kayla, The Storm, Stranger In Your Soul, Regret, and Momentum resonate differently than, say, Light Fuse and Get Away, and I think it's fair to say that at least some of that is attributable to Portnoy being a better drummer. 

Some of this is perhaps colored by the fact that I just saw Yngwie Malmsteen for the first time the other night, because he's sort of the same way for me, but as for "feel", who knows who plays with more feel?  All I know is that FOR ME, Portnoy can play 16/13 and make it feel to me like 4/4, Mangini plays 4/4 and makes it feel to me like 16/13.  The others in my drumming Mt. Rushmore - Peart, Collins, Bonham - do something similar.   That's how the great ones roll; to this day I hear drummers say how it's hard to play things like "Rock And Roll" and capture it exactly right.   

[bosk1]

Yeah, I think there's a lot to that.  Not to go too far afield, but to use another drummer as an example, let's talk about Steve Smith for a second.  When I was younger, I always viewed him as being pretty plain, vanilla as a drummer.  And that's okay.  It wasn't a criticism.  Just an observation that I was never attracted to Journey because of any "creative" over the top drumming.  He laid down the solid rhythm for the others to do their thing.  I didn't understand so many people talking about what an incredible influence he is on so many well-known drummers and how sought-after he is as a session guy.  But when I hear others trying to cover his parts, it becomes pretty obvious that they can't play what he plays the way he plays it.  He does some really cool things and just makes them sound like no big deal.  And that in and of itself can be a pretty big deal. 

To bring it back, I think what Portnoy does is more complex than what Smith does.  But over the years, after hearing SO MUCH of Portnoy's drumming, it can start to sound like "no big deal."  But there is a lot going on that is easy to just gloss over and not appreciate, and just put in the box of "oh, that's just the standard Mike Portnoy chorus fill #1.  Next time through, he'll do standard Mike Portnoy chorus fill #2.  And so on."  But there's usually a lot more going on that I think we easily become deaf to just because of getting used to his style.  For me, being so immersed in DT with a new drummer, and hearing so much MP outside of DT, it has really made me RE-appreciate what Portnoy brings to the table...er...drum kit. 

[Kwyjibo]

We criticise MP for not evolving (enough) and then we go mad over the new Metallica disc. 

[goo-goo]

I thought MP's playing on the SoA album was some off the best he's done for many a year. There's little drum fills in there that really show off how good he is.

Do I think he's as good as he used to be? No, he's gotten lazy. But he's still a highly listenable drummer.

But I wish he'd stop riding that fucking cymbal. I want to snatch it off him and ram it up his arse.

Once again, I don't think anyone here is saying he isn't "listenable", heck he's still one of my favorite drummers. We are just pointing out that he stopped growing and evolving as a player a long, long time ago - and that's okay. I'm not saying he needs to do anything different. Just observing and commenting.

Looking back at my comment about Mike not evolving as a player, I think I should have said and added also something about the song arranging and composing.

His drumming playing actually shines when he is NOT involved in the arrangements. Take Winery Dogs and the Neal Morse band. He actually has very nice and interesting drum fills, but Richie has a lot of the songs written. In Transatlantic, he shined a lot in the early stuff but became more predictable in the last album. With the NNB, Neal writes most of the stuff and MP add his magic with something already written for him.  With Sons of Apollo, the arrangements and composing of the songs are a bit lacking and repeatable. You basically are hearing same drumming parts from Black Clouds and Systematic Chaos, where DT as a whole did had some sections that just did not belong there or seemed out of place (which falls into the song arrangement category, where JP and MP were involved). When MP left, I do think DT (more specifically JP) improved in the song arrangements. They feel more in place and more concise.

And someone here kind of addressed it where MP bases his arrangements on the "Meshuggah section", the "King Crimson Section" etc. You come with some preconceived ideas you want to FORCE when writing and arranging a song, and don't look back at it and llet the song breathe and make changes later on.

Finally, this is not a shot to MP. I love the guy. I've been an MP fanboy for many years. He's been very down to earth and approachable when I have met him a few times, and own all of his material and releases. But the guy is a blast to talk and watch. I agree and disagree on some of his behavior.  But this is the first release were I didn't feel the MP feeling that I always have for his releases. The singles felt uninspired, Soto's voice felt underused. I'm only talking musically about SoA. Hell, I even thought his drumming for Amob was great (served a purpose, to provide energy for the song). I did buy the album but I have only listened to it once when I got and haven't played it back.

Hopefully this explains my post a bit more in regards to MP's drumming.

[mikeyd23]

^ great post goo-goo, I can't argue with much of that.