Author Topic: Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)  (Read 256811 times)

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Online Adami

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1575 on: December 17, 2019, 02:28:30 PM »
Who cares?

The movie will make between 1 and 2 billion dollars. The movie is being made for the sole purpose of making that money. I highly doubt it's because anyone involved was passionately wanting to make a great Star Wars movie, other than possibly Rian Johnson who didn't quite succeed.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1576 on: December 17, 2019, 02:32:38 PM »
The movie will make between 1 and 2 billion dollars. The movie is being made for the sole purpose of making that money. I highly doubt it's because anyone involved was passionately wanting to make a great Star Wars movie, other than possibly Rian Johnson who didn't quite succeed.

This goes to the very core of my complaints with this new trilogy, and it's problematic on so many levels, and unfortunately Star Wars is not the only victim of this mentality. Sigh. And the fact that this film is guaranteed to make money hand over fist only adds to reasons why a studio shouldn't give a damn about taking risks in the next trilogy/series of films.
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1577 on: December 17, 2019, 02:55:51 PM »
The movie will make between 1 and 2 billion dollars. The movie is being made for the sole purpose of making that money. I highly doubt it's because anyone involved was passionately wanting to make a great Star Wars movie, other than possibly Rian Johnson who didn't quite succeed.

This goes to the very core of my complaints with this new trilogy, and it's problematic on so many levels, and unfortunately Star Wars is not the only victim of this mentality. Sigh. And the fact that this film is guaranteed to make money hand over fist only adds to reasons why a studio shouldn't give a damn about taking risks in the next trilogy/series of films.

Maybe I'm being naive, but both J.J. and Rian have sounded pretty passionate in the interviews I've seen. I completely agree that the big studio executives don't care about quality - that has been made clear by how quickly they are rushing these things out the door - but I'm hesitant to conclude that no one involved was passionate about the movies.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1578 on: December 17, 2019, 02:56:52 PM »
Who cares?

The movie will make between 1 and 2 billion dollars. The movie is being made for the sole purpose of making that money. I highly doubt it's because anyone involved was passionately wanting to make a great Star Wars movie, other than possibly Rian Johnson who didn't quite succeed.

Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that any major studio film is anything but an attempt to make money. There are definitely people at Lucasfilm that are passionate about making great Star Wars movies. But yes, it is, first and foremost, a business.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1579 on: December 17, 2019, 02:59:03 PM »
Who cares?

The movie will make between 1 and 2 billion dollars. The movie is being made for the sole purpose of making that money. I highly doubt it's because anyone involved was passionately wanting to make a great Star Wars movie, other than possibly Rian Johnson who didn't quite succeed.

Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that any major studio film is anything but an attempt to make money. There are definitely people at Lucasfilm that are passionate about making great Star Wars movies. But yes, it is, first and foremost, a business.

I mean, yes they all need to make money, but there is just something about TFA (and others, but definitely not all) that seems to be built around appealing to the most people. I dunno, it just seems more product and less film. I don't get that feeling with a lot of the Marvel movies. I think product is in there, but I think a lot of them (definitely not all) are just stories people are excited to tell. I felt that way about TLJ, I just didn't like how he did it, but that's cool. TFA, and from what I'm reading about ROS, it seems the phrase "checking off boxes" is getting used a whole lot.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1580 on: December 17, 2019, 03:00:24 PM »
Who cares?

The movie will make between 1 and 2 billion dollars. The movie is being made for the sole purpose of making that money. I highly doubt it's because anyone involved was passionately wanting to make a great Star Wars movie, other than possibly Rian Johnson who didn't quite succeed.

Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that any major studio film is anything but an attempt to make money. There are definitely people at Lucasfilm that are passionate about making great Star Wars movies. But yes, it is, first and foremost, a business.

I mean, yes they all need to make money, but there is just something about TFA (and others, but definitely not all) that seems to be built around appealing to the most people. I dunno, it just seems more product and less film. I don't get that feeling with a lot of the Marvel movies. I think product is in there, but I think a lot of them (definitely not all) are just stories people are excited to tell. I felt that way about TLJ, I just didn't like how he did it, but that's cool. TFA, and from what I'm reading about ROS, it seems the phrase "checking off boxes" is getting used a whole lot.

Nailed it, Adami.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1581 on: December 17, 2019, 03:18:09 PM »
I think we need to wait and see what happens with ROS. Thus far, there has been one "check off the boxes" kind of movie (TFA) and one "I'm going to try something new" kind of movie (TLJ). If ROS goes the same route as TFA with regards to fan service and playing it safe, then it will be hard for people like me to argue that Star Wars is not a 100% cold, dispassionate product. I already see and accept that it's mostly that, but as things currently stand, I don't feel as though it's completely without sincerity, IMO.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1582 on: December 17, 2019, 03:40:15 PM »
Totally agree. The checking off boxes comments were taken from reactions to ROS from people at the premiere.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1583 on: December 17, 2019, 07:12:58 PM »
If you want to see biggest difference between a “passion project” and a “we did this for the paycheck”...just look at the Lord of the Rings Trilogy vs The Hobbit Trilogy.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1584 on: December 17, 2019, 08:59:38 PM »
Totally agree. The checking off boxes comments were taken from reactions to ROS from people at the premiere.

The bulk of the non-spoiler reviews I've seen have really liked the movie. I mean, it's SW....with the story that has been told spanning all of these films there HAS to be some 'checking off boxes'.

Anyway....this debate will rage on and on and on and on.....


Just finished our re-watch of the series.....I'll reiterate again just how much I like and dig TLJ. Hadn't watched it in a good year or so and I like it more and more. If it weren't for Mary Poppin's Leia in the beginning I wouldn't really have an issue with the movie at all. Even the Canto Blight casino escapade is fading away for me.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1585 on: December 17, 2019, 09:30:16 PM »
Rewatching TFA tonight in preparation. 

I hate the "checking the boxes" comparison.   I honestly think this is an AMAZING SW film.   Ok, there are some similarities, but it's done extremely well, and the actors all have heart, motivation, and good performances.     In fact (and I've said this before) it really just deepens my hatred of the prequels because Kylo Ren's character PROVES that it was possible to do a whiny, spoiled, immature brat and still give him the depth of character to make him interesting.   He was everything that Anikan should have been in the prequels, and....absolutely wasn't.

Even Kylo's light saber was part of his character.   It's totally impractical, and totally HIM.   He's like those rednecks that purposefully make their engines burn too rich so they blow black smoke everywhere they go.   It's totally impractical, totally immature, and totally Kylo.     It's all power and no self-control whatsoever.   If Kylo were a kid on earth, he would be the guy with fake testicles on the hitch of his truck. 


I really love this movie.   
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1586 on: December 17, 2019, 09:44:09 PM »
I particularly like the faceoff between Kylo and Rey in the prisoner's chair.   The facial acting is off the chart.  You can tell that Kylo is unnerved by her almost from the start.   

This is an extremely well done movie.   Even if they do try to "echo" previous achievements.   

Don't most people around these parts claim that that very thing is one of the strengths of ADTOE?   ;D :angel:
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1587 on: December 17, 2019, 10:17:32 PM »
Watching the Han death scene.   One more thing I'm reminded of.   

Ever since 1986, Harrison had said he would NEVER go back to playing Han unless he died.   So I went into the movie not only prepared, but *expecting* that Han would die.     But the fact that the way the scene played out made me doubt myself for even 5 seconds after expecting it for 30 years, says a lot. 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 10:26:20 PM by jammindude »
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1588 on: December 17, 2019, 10:25:50 PM »
I don't feel nearly as positively about TFA as you, but:

So I went into the movie not only prepared, but *expecting* that Han would die.     But the fact that the way the scene played out made me doubt myself for even 5 seconds after expecting it for 30 years, says a lot. 

That is spot on for me. In fact, looking back, that is one of the few bright spots of that movie for me.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 10:33:26 PM by Cool Chris »
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1590 on: December 18, 2019, 07:05:47 AM »
Anywho,

Finished Return of the Jedi for my rewatch.

Honestly? Pretty good! The Ewok stuff ranges from cute (about 5%) to terrible (about 35%) to just extremely boring (60%). But the rest of the movie is fantastic.........except for the major changes in the new versions. I found that muting that stupid song at Jabba's really helped it haha.

But once they get Han back, the movie is actually great. The stuff on the new Death Star is really riveting and emotional.

So this one actually came off better than I remember it. I would still cut out like 20 minutes of Ewoks at least, but minus them and some of the dumb changes, it's a great movie.


Tomorrow is TFA.
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1591 on: December 18, 2019, 07:25:12 AM »
Started to watch The Last Jedi yesterday on a DVD I borrowed from the library, but it ended up being so scratched I couldn't get more than 45 minutes into it. So I won't be able to rewatch that in advance of tomorrow's ROS showing. Oh well. I remember it well enough.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1592 on: December 18, 2019, 07:31:13 AM »
Well, since it all ends tomorrow I'll jump on the ranking bandwagon...

1- Rogue One (I fall in love with it more and more with each viewing)
2- New Hope
3- Empire
4- Force Awakens
5- Solo
6- Revenge of the Sith
7- Return of the Jedi (fucking Ewoks)
8- Last Jedi
9- Phantom Menace
10- Attack of the Clones

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1593 on: December 18, 2019, 07:43:38 AM »
Dang that Mandalorian episode was amazing! Sad we only have one more episode but I've enjoyed them all so far and the last two have been flat out exciting.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1594 on: December 18, 2019, 07:49:49 AM »
There's only one more? :( I was hoping for 10. Darn it.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1595 on: December 18, 2019, 07:51:48 AM »
There's only one more? :( I was hoping for 10. Darn it.

They're already in the middle of or near completing S2....so it shouldn't be too long a wait for it I would think....hopefully?
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1596 on: December 18, 2019, 08:22:11 AM »
I hate the "checking the boxes" comparison.   

Same here.  It really misses the point.  TFA was a good, fun film in its own right.  No need to be dismissive by, ironically, trying to put it into a box to try to make it into something it's not. 

Anyhow, that said, let's move on...

Ep. IV - A New Hope:

Three things that worked:
-1.  Vader's entrance.  Actually, the entire opening sequence.  Just brilliant.  It set up the Empire as something scary, and Vader as the rightful face of that terrifying entity.
-2.  The battle of Yavin.  Yeah, space battles have become much better and more epic.  But this was really the first of its kind on film.  And the dated effects notwithstanding, it still holds up. 
-3.  Luke's character.  He was whiny, immature, and annoying.  Yet, he was entirely likeable and relatable.  Whatever flaws you can argue, the fact is that EVERY kid in my generation wanted to be Luke Skywalker.  Well, okay, some wanted to be Han too.  But that's beside the point.  The farmboy who becomes a reluctant hero when he loses everything, and manages to harness a cosmic power bigger than himself to defeat an unbeatable enemy was inherently likeable.  A New Hope is absolutely his story and his journey. 

Three things that didn't
-1.  Greedo did NOT shoot first.  He just didn't.  This really should have been left alone.
-2.  Pacing.  Overall, the pacing is just a bit too slow.  Some may say it is just a product of its time, and that the pacing was perfectly fine for the time in which this film was released.  I disagree.  I was 7 when this came out.  I was the target audience.  And I had sat through many movies up to that point.  But despite all the amazing visuals and world-building, I kept getting bored and distracted when I first saw it as a kid.  Although I love the movie, that feeling has never left me.  Thankfully, there is enough action spread out to keep getting my attention and draw me back in when I start to drift. 
-3.  Retcon needed!  Okay, this isn't really a flaw with THIS film.  It's more to do with Lucas doing things in subsequent films that are inconsistent with things in this film ("I don't seem to recall ever owning a droid.").  Lucas should have just been more careful in those subsequent films and found ways to NOT make us roll our eyes and have to explain away things.  But honestly, I just don't really have many flaws to point out in this film. 

Minor tweaks that could have made it better:  Honestly, not much.  The story was fine.  Most problems I have are either too minor to dwell on or were actually problems created by what Lucas did afterward.  I don't think I'm going to have much to say in this category for the original trilogy films at all.  I guess if I have to say anything at all, I'll just say that Lucas should have been more judicious with his changes/updates in later releases.  Don't make Greedo shoot first!  Don't include the Jabba scene that not only looks wonky, but actually undercuts some things we know about the Han/Jabba relationship from later on.  Don't change Obi-Wan's krayt dragon call.  But I'm fine with the other updates.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1597 on: December 18, 2019, 08:58:49 AM »
I'm not sure if my "checking boxes" comment was misunderstood. It just means that the people behind the movie, in mine and others' opinions, based a substantial amount of creative decisions on what they imagined the fans want most out of the next movie. It doesn't mean they didn't execute that very well, or that the movie isn't very fun or good in its own right.

I very much enjoyed TFA, as I have said numerous times, so my comments are not trying to discount it being an enjoyable movie. It just felt more like a very very well crafted product for the fans than it did a story that someone really wanted to tell, though it obviously had plenty of elements of that in there.

And the phrase "checking off the boxes" or whatever, I was taking directly from several twitter reactions from people who have seen ROS and also mostly enjoyed it.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1598 on: December 18, 2019, 09:01:02 AM »
I think there's validity in the "checking off boxes" criticism, though. Much as it might sound dismissive to those who read that criticism, I think it's equally dismissive to act as if that's something you can't say about a movie. All the reviews I'm reading that have used that particular term have backed it up with references to what happens in the movie. But we'll just have to see for ourselves.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1599 on: December 18, 2019, 09:02:59 AM »
No, I hear your opinion.  I just dismiss it.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1600 on: December 18, 2019, 09:06:03 AM »
No, I hear your opinion.  I just dismiss it.

I dismiss you! I dismiss the whole court!

I diss you. I miss you. I dismiss you!
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1601 on: December 18, 2019, 09:16:25 AM »
I will add an element to my criticism of TFA.

I don’t think any of the stuff I’m saying they did was done out of cynicism. I think it was done to give the fans as much of what they want as possible in effort to make them happy.

Contrast that with Transformers, which felt like “who cares? They want splosions! They aren’t smart enough to care about story or character”
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1602 on: December 18, 2019, 09:40:02 AM »
Watching the Han death scene.   One more thing I'm reminded of.   

Ever since 1986, Harrison had said he would NEVER go back to playing Han unless he died.   So I went into the movie not only prepared, but *expecting* that Han would die.     But the fact that the way the scene played out made me doubt myself for even 5 seconds after expecting it for 30 years, says a lot.

My favorite part of that scene is the how light on Ben's faces shifts from Blue to Red signifying his internal struggle with the Light and Dark side. Brilliant.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1603 on: December 18, 2019, 11:08:11 AM »
My ranking thus far:

1.  Rogue One:  I love this movie.  It was wholly unnecessary, and dialed back prior pre-Disney canon about how the rebels got the plans.  But it was fantastically done.  It added so much color and depth to the Star Wars universe.  It wasn't perfect.  But, man, if all the Star Wars films were this level of quality, I would have absolutely zero complaints.

2.  The Force Awakens:  It's probably controversial to rank it this highly, but I do.  It took a lot of what was great about Star Wars in general, and brought it into this era in film making in a very satisfying way.  Loved it.  This is a VERY close second to Rogue One.

3.  The Empire Strikes Back:  Solid.  It being ranked #3 is in no way a knock on anything.  But the modern, fresh approach to the films in my #1 and #2 spots just make them slightly better to me.

4.  Return of the Jedi:  This film had some problems.  But in the grand scheme of things, they are minor and easily overlooked.  Such a grand ending to the original story.

5.  Solo:  I like this movie more than I thought I would or should.  So much about it, and indeed the film as a whole, felt so "unnecessary."  But at the same time, it was just fun all around and made you feel that you were seeing the type of Star Wars movie that Star Wars always felt like it was supposed to be about.  That's a big win in and of itself.

6.  A New Hope:  If I'm being completely honest, me putting Solo in front of this one is probably more about me trying to make a statement in my own mind about the OT not being "untouchable" than it is about the actual relative quality of these two movies.  But in any case, this is, overall, a very good movie.  It suffers a bit in the pacing.  But that's really the only issue with it (aside from some of the changes Lucas made in later editions), and that's not a major issue by any stretch.

7.  The Last Jedi:  Good movie.  It would rank higher if not for the casino planet sub-plot being SUCH a distraction and feeling so mishandled.  Other little issues also feel magnified because there are just so many of them.  Overall, it's a good film with a good story to tell.  It's just that there were a lot of distractions.  And while I can explain most of them away and say, "Yeah, it's not really a big deal now that I think about it," the fact that I DO think about it and have to tell myself that knocks the film down a few pegs.  But the whole slow chase "BSG '33' episode" was a really cool idea.  And I (mostly) loved where they went with Luke's character, Rey potentially being more of a "nobody" than "amazing because she is a Skywalker so there," Snoke, and Kylo.

8.  Revenge of the Sith:  It's such a shame that most of the "problems" with this movie aren't problems that are actually IN this movie, but are residual problems created by the two films that preceded it.  It had a lot of good things, and is overall fairly enjoyable.  But, as I said, it is unfortunately mired in some issues that I find hard to completely overlook as a fan.  To me, for the PT as a whole, it's best to just take what I enjoy from them and not dwell on the negatives too much.

9.  The Phantom Menace:  I didn't dislike the movie at the time it came out.  But I think its "problems" are magnified when places in context of the entire PT.  There was a lot about it that was pretty good and pretty fun.  But it just got too silly and too offtrack.

10.  Attack of the Clones:  Some REALLY cool moments.  But so much about Anakin himself, the relationship between Anakin and Padme, and the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan made a lot of fans, myself included, feel like Lucas messed up the character of Anakin/Vader and was making him a much different character than the one we actually got and were promised in the OT.  And that, unfortunately, taints a lot of fans' views of the entire SW franchise.  Add to that the fact things like the droid factory sequence feeling like a parody and a combination of a video game and cartoon aimed solely at VERY young kids.  For those reasons, this film ranks at the bottom. 

The 10 films thus far being in the books, I have to comment for just a second on a theme I referenced a couple of times above.  These films are, for obvious reasons, interconnected.  What happens in one provides context and color to the others.  That being said, it would not surprise me if what ends up happening in Ep. IX might potentially change the rankings of some of the other films.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1604 on: December 18, 2019, 11:34:54 AM »
Dang that Mandalorian episode was amazing! Sad we only have one more episode but I've enjoyed them all so far and the last two have been flat out exciting.

Does this episode adds something to the Story of Star Wars as mentioned before? Rey parents? Anything? I will watch tonite

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1605 on: December 18, 2019, 11:36:33 AM »
Dang that Mandalorian episode was amazing! Sad we only have one more episode but I've enjoyed them all so far and the last two have been flat out exciting.

Does this episode adds something to the Story of Star Wars as mentioned before? Rey parents? Anything? I will watch tonite

Haven't watched yet, but from what I've read, it has a scene or sneak peak or something of TROS at the end.

It would be truly odd if The Mandalorian addressed Rey's parents.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1606 on: December 18, 2019, 11:46:22 AM »
So i have now seen The Rise Of Skywalker!

Whoa! What a sensory overload of a movie! Both in good and bad. This could contain some rambling as i'm still trying to sort my thoughts about it. None of this will contain spoilers!!

Best way i can sum up this movie, is that it feels like JJ's vision for episode 8 and 9 crammed into one movie. There is a lot of exposition. A lot of questions hovering around the sequel trilogy are answered. Some of them are answered in a way that creates new plot holes. Other seemingly very important questions are still left up in the air. There is not outright retconning of The Last Jedi, but a lot of the elements from TLJ are twisted in a different way.

TROS has a breakneck pace. So much so, that i wish it had slowed down more for the important and very heartfelt moments. Good comparison i think would be The Dark Knight Rises. Both movies had to resolve a lot of stuff in one movie. And in both movies some of the resolutions are glanced over very quick. But in the end, i think it gives a satisfying conclusion to the whole Skywalker Saga, but i have a feeling that not everybody is going to feel the same.

Daisy Ridley was as great as ever, as was Adam Driver. Ian McDiarmid seemed to have a blast. He is just as great as ever, in delivering evil one-liners and cackling maniacally :lol. Saying anything more would be very spoilerish!

I'll have to collect my thought before i can even attempt to give any kind of review. It's clear that JJ was fighting an uphill battle when making this movie. I think if he have had two movies dedicated to this story it would have come out better. I'm not a fan of needlessly long movies, but i think a longer running time would have also helped.

As it stands now, it is my least favorite sequel trilogy movie. Although i'm excited to see it again with friends next Monday. Not going to even attempt to rank it now. :lol




Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1607 on: December 18, 2019, 11:52:46 AM »
Some of them are answered in a way that creates new plot holes.

The term "plot hole" is SO frequently mis-used nowadays that I have to ask:  Does it TRULY create actual plot holes?  Or does it simply create more unanswered questions or questions that are answered in a way that subjectively feels unsatisfying?
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1608 on: December 18, 2019, 01:36:42 PM »
Dang that Mandalorian episode was amazing! Sad we only have one more episode but I've enjoyed them all so far and the last two have been flat out exciting.

Does this episode adds something to the Story of Star Wars as mentioned before? Rey parents? Anything? I will watch tonite

Not that I could see. There is an extras tab that is supposed to be something about Rise but I didn't watch that.
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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #1609 on: December 18, 2019, 01:42:26 PM »
Dang that Mandalorian episode was amazing! Sad we only have one more episode but I've enjoyed them all so far and the last two have been flat out exciting.

Does this episode adds something to the Story of Star Wars as mentioned before? Rey parents? Anything? I will watch tonite

Not really, but the only connection I could see (And i barley would call it a connection) is:


Spoilers for show and IX:



Baby Yoda uses the force to heal somebody, which Rey also does in IX


Besides that, its just sticks to Mandalorian story stuff and was a great episode  :tup