DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: XJDenton on May 28, 2021, 01:15:36 PM
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Old thread here:
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=54761.0
Track cases here: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Track various data (including vaccines) here: https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus
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Finally getting a vaccine next month, first shot scheduled in the middle of June.
I won't show up in this thread again though, the discussion is a bit too much for me honestly.
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We're still doing this coronavirus thing then?
:(
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It’s just the flu
/sarcasm
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The old thread wasn't that long... Shit it was only #5 on the list.
Still, it will always be remembered for having the best opening response ever... Nice work Bill
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Did the last thread finally got its vaccination?
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I lived through the pandemic apocalypse and all I got was a lousy mask...
And the sniffles.
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Still, it will always be remembered for having the best opening response ever... Nice work Bill
Those first could pages are a fascinating time capsule. I've read through them a couple times these past 12+ months.
Second shot today at a county mass vaccination site. Still impressed by how the processed was managed. Hats off to that crew.
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Still, it will always be remembered for having the best opening response ever... Nice work Bill
Those first could pages are a fascinating time capsule. I've read through them a couple times these past 12+ months.
Second shot today at a county mass vaccination site. Still impressed by how the processed was managed. Hats off to that crew.
There's a brilliant transition right around pg 3 or 4 where everyone is realizing that 'holy shit...we might be in deep trouble'
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I got my first shot yesterday. My Wi-Fi has been acting up all day today. Hmmm...
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Still, it will always be remembered for having the best opening response ever... Nice work Bill
Those first could pages are a fascinating time capsule. I've read through them a couple times these past 12+ months.
Definitively. None of us was prepared for it, I was one of those who took it immediately seriously, and yet I was thinking it was a short time problem. I was thinking that spring 2020's lockdown was the equivalent of staying in a refuge while the hurricane is passing, and once it passed, the sky would be clear. I remember someone planning a trip to Italy and discussing it with me, and I was saying stuff like "well, spring is gone, I believe that by July it will all be over and you can travel freely".
Boy I was wrong.
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I didn't verbalize it to anyone around me at the time as I didn't want to come off as Mr. Pessimist, but I remember last March a few friends and family members saying stuff along the lines of, "I hope this is over in a few weeks," or something to that effect, and I just remember thinking, "No way will this be over that quickly. The country doesn't shut down for something that will go away quickly." Sadly, I was right. To be at the point we are now is a great feeling, though, and I pray the worst really is over and we do not see relapse with the virus here soon.
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I got the second shot today and I'm looking forward to start seeing friends again after fifteen months. ;D
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I too didn't take it seriously at the start. I figured it'd be similar to the SARS pandemic years ago but not on the scale that it turned out to be.
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I too didn't take it seriously at the start. I figured it'd be similar to the SARS pandemic years ago but not on the scale that it turned out to be.
Me too, and I think that was one of my first initial posts on the matter. Someone shared with me a site that talked about the math of virus and epidemiology, and that was my holy-fuck / aha (not in a good way) moment. That was the first Thursday in March - I remember because it was on a team call that I got that website.
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I too didn't take it seriously at the start. I figured it'd be similar to the SARS pandemic years ago but not on the scale that it turned out to be.
That's where I was as well. It wasn't till Italy went down for the count and I started getting really frightening reports from an old flame who lives in Milan that I got really scared and really serious about it.
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I didn't verbalize it to anyone around me at the time as I didn't want to come off as Mr. Pessimist, but I remember last March a few friends and family members saying stuff along the lines of, "I hope this is over in a few weeks," or something to that effect, and I just remember thinking, "No way will this be over that quickly. The country doesn't shut down for something that will go away quickly." Sadly, I was right. To be at the point we are now is a great feeling, though, and I pray the worst really is over and we do not see relapse with the virus here soon.
I'm with ya on this. I was the same way. I saw a Joe Rogan podcast with Michael Olsterholm and knew we were in for a shit-storm. It isn't as much about pessimism as much as it is about realism.
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Still, it will always be remembered for having the best opening response ever... Nice work Bill
Those first could pages are a fascinating time capsule. I've read through them a couple times these past 12+ months.
Second shot today at a county mass vaccination site. Still impressed by how the processed was managed. Hats off to that crew.
There's a brilliant transition right around pg 3 or 4 where everyone is realizing that 'holy shit...we might be in deep trouble'
It's fascinating to watch that in hindsight, isn't it?
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Still, it will always be remembered for having the best opening response ever... Nice work Bill
Those first could pages are a fascinating time capsule. I've read through them a couple times these past 12+ months.
Second shot today at a county mass vaccination site. Still impressed by how the processed was managed. Hats off to that crew.
There's a brilliant transition right around pg 3 or 4 where everyone is realizing that 'holy shit...we might be in deep trouble'
It's fascinating to watch that in hindsight, isn't it?
Yup, akin to reflecting on one's youth and thinking "awwww, we were so cute and naive back then" :lol
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My kid got his first shot yesterday, he’ll be last in my immediate family to be fully vaccinated. It’s a different feeling having your kid get it then getting it yourself.
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Getting my first shot next Tuesday, after my parents got one last week, grandparents got both already. I'm relieved but also kinda scared. I don't believe in any conspiracy theory but my FB has been full of it lately and I can't help but read comments, like someone trying to poison us with it, people are dying from blood cloths etc. Just came here for some light comments as I see most of you are happy and well with it :hug: I hope we all see the end of it soon
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Getting my first shot next Tuesday, after my parents got one last week, grandparents got both already. I'm relieved but also kinda scared. I don't believe in any conspiracy theory but my FB has been full of it lately and I can't help but read comments, like someone trying to poison us with it, people are dying from blood cloths etc. Just came here for some light comments as I see most of you are happy and well with it :hug: I hope we all see the end of it soon
"They're poisoning us with it" is so lame and stupid that doesn't even need a comment, not everything is a global conspiracy FFS, and even if it was, it certainly wouldn't be discovered by your Aunt Karen on Facebook.
Blood cloths... shit can happen once in a million or even less. Every medication you take has potential damages. I don't know how it is in other parts of the world, but in Italy with every medicine you buy there's a small paper with tiny writing describing everything, from way to take to medicine, to possible collateral damages, if you have those too, go and read them, even the aspirine is a potential threat. Everything is a potential threat, included planes flying over your house and then crashing, from soneone running you over with the car while you're going to take the vaccine. The benefits of the vaccines, in the entire history of vaccines, have always greatly outweighed the possible risks, risks that are potentially present in the common aspirin as well.
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Yup... Blood clot rate from the vaccine is about 1/200,000. Rate from dying of covid in the USA is about 1/500.
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I'm on blood thinners the rest of my life. I got 2 shots. I'm ok.
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NJ lifted the mask mandate on Friday, I went to the grocery store and a wawa, both had signs up saying to still wear a mask so I did. Sunday I went on a date to an arcade and dinner, nieither had people with masks on so we took ours off as well. It was soooo nice to have a normal day in public without wearing a mask. Went back out today with out it, even to another grocery store. Feels good.
Getting my first shot next Tuesday, after my parents got one last week, grandparents got both already. I'm relieved but also kinda scared. I don't believe in any conspiracy theory but my FB has been full of it lately and I can't help but read comments, like someone trying to poison us with it, people are dying from blood cloths etc. Just came here for some light comments as I see most of you are happy and well with it :hug: I hope we all see the end of it soon
And all of what I wrote above is only posible because of the vaccines. So you definitely should not feel worried and be happy to have it available to you so everyone can get back to "normal" sooner than later.
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Getting my first shot next Tuesday, after my parents got one last week, grandparents got both already. I'm relieved but also kinda scared. I don't believe in any conspiracy theory but my FB has been full of it lately and I can't help but read comments, like someone trying to poison us with it, people are dying from blood cloths etc. Just came here for some light comments as I see most of you are happy and well with it :hug: I hope we all see the end of it soon
I don't know how it is in other parts of the world, but in Italy with every medicine you buy there's a small paper with tiny writing describing everything, from way to take to medicine, to possible collateral damages, if you have those too, go and read them, even the aspirine is a potential threat.
Never seen an American TV commercial for prescription drugs, huh? Half of every commercial is spent rhyming off the possible side effects and dangers. Even in a 1 minute commercial.
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Never seen an American TV commercial for prescription drugs, huh? Half of every commercial is spent rhyming off the possible side effects and dangers. Even in a 1 minute commercial.
Sometimes you think, yeah, I'll just take my chances with the disease.
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Never seen an American TV commercial for prescription drugs, huh? Half of every commercial is spent rhyming off the possible side effects and dangers. Even in a 1 minute commercial.
Sometimes you think, yeah, I'll just take my chances with the disease.
Reminded me of this
(https://i.imgur.com/D6963tZ_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)
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Never seen an American TV commercial for prescription drugs, huh? Half of every commercial is spent rhyming off the possible side effects and dangers. Even in a 1 minute commercial.
Sometimes you think, yeah, I'll just take my chances with the disease.
Ever since drug commercials started drug costs went through the roof.
That's because those dumb commercials cost crazy money. Big business again for something that shouldn't be big business.
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Attended a wedding over the weekend.
Everyone was vaccinated, so no masks. Big fun.
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Attended a wedding over the weekend.
Everyone was claims they were vaccinated, so no masks. Big fun.
Fix'd :neverusethis:
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Attended a wedding over the weekend.
Everyone was claims they were vaccinated, so no masks. Big fun.
Fix'd :neverusethis:
Close enough for me.
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Never seen an American TV commercial for prescription drugs, huh? Half of every commercial is spent rhyming off the possible side effects and dangers. Even in a 1 minute commercial.
Sometimes you think, yeah, I'll just take my chances with the disease.
Ever since drug commercials started drug costs went through the roof.
That's because those dumb commercials cost crazy money. Big business again for something that shouldn't be big business.
Arguably one of the three greatest marketing coups of all time (from a marketing standpoint): getting patients - who are not a front-line customer of most pharmaceutical companies - to lobby their doctors to get certain drugs. Sheer brilliance. Built in, invested sales persons who won't take no for an answer, and complicit doctors who now have to consider losing a patient base because they are not informed or willing to prescribe the latest and greatest.
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Are people experiencing others who are lying about receiving the vaccine? I'm not sure how we would really know; I know for me, far more have gotten the vaccine than are saying "I'm going to wait", but I haven't been checking cards (I do carry mine with me).
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Never seen an American TV commercial for prescription drugs, huh? Half of every commercial is spent rhyming off the possible side effects and dangers. Even in a 1 minute commercial.
Sometimes you think, yeah, I'll just take my chances with the disease.
Ever since drug commercials started drug costs went through the roof.
That's because those dumb commercials cost crazy money. Big business again for something that shouldn't be big business.
Arguably one of the three greatest marketing coups of all time (from a marketing standpoint): getting patients - who are not a front-line customer of most pharmaceutical companies - to lobby their doctors to get certain drugs. Sheer brilliance. Built in, invested sales persons who won't take no for an answer, and complicit doctors who now have to consider losing a patient base because they are not informed or willing to prescribe the latest and greatest.
Add to that doctors promoting these drugs instead of a generic drug that can do the same for a lesser cost. You have to ask or you won't get that info from a doctor. That irks me as well. LOL
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Are people experiencing others who are lying about receiving the vaccine? I'm not sure how we would really know; I know for me, far more have gotten the vaccine than are saying "I'm going to wait", but I haven't been checking cards (I do carry mine with me).
I know a lady who got her first shot and intentionally let her second one lapse. She tells people she's fully vaxxed.
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Are people experiencing others who are lying about receiving the vaccine? I'm not sure how we would really know; I know for me, far more have gotten the vaccine than are saying "I'm going to wait", but I haven't been checking cards (I do carry mine with me).
Not really. I mean.....the stats that I've seen say Missouri is 53% vaccinated and our county is 58% vaccinated.....but, I rarely see anyone wearing a mask anywhere anymore. So....someone is lying :lol
Saw that the past week only 6k new cases....I think that with numbers like that and the fact they're staying 'low' like that.....you're going to have a hard time getting people to buy back in to any type of mandates or anything like that. And, if you're not vaccinated yet, you're probably not going to get vaccinated anyway.
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Ran out of toilet paper and started using lettuce leaves. Today was just the tip of the iceberg, tomorrow romaines to be seen. ;)
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Are people experiencing others who are lying about receiving the vaccine? I'm not sure how we would really know; I know for me, far more have gotten the vaccine than are saying "I'm going to wait", but I haven't been checking cards (I do carry mine with me).
Not really. I mean.....the stats that I've seen say Missouri is 53% vaccinated and our county is 58% vaccinated.....but, I rarely see anyone wearing a mask anywhere anymore. So....someone is lying :lol
Saw that the past week only 6k new cases....I think that with numbers like that and the fact they're staying 'low' like that.....you're going to have a hard time getting people to buy back in to any type of mandates or anything like that. And, if you're not vaccinated yet, you're probably not going to get vaccinated anyway.
Yeah... The toothpaste is out of the tube for good this time.
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Are people experiencing others who are lying about receiving the vaccine? I'm not sure how we would really know; I know for me, far more have gotten the vaccine than are saying "I'm going to wait", but I haven't been checking cards (I do carry mine with me).
I know a lady who got her first shot and intentionally let her second one lapse. She tells people she's fully vaxxed.
You know, if she had a mild case of Covid previously then getting one shot is probably sufficient and she is fully vaxxed.
https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2021/april/penn-study-suggests-those-who-had-covid19-may-only-need-one-vaccine-dose
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I'm interested in what they told you about time to maximum safety from 2nd shot? I remember everyone talking about 2 weeks but I got vaccinated yesterday and it says it's a week after. I mean, I don't care because I scheduled (seaside) vacation for only a few days after my 2nd :lol
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I'm interested in what they told you about time to maximum safety from 2nd shot? I remember everyone talking about 2 weeks but I got vaccinated yesterday and it says it's a week after. I mean, I don't care because I scheduled (seaside) vacation for only a few days after my 2nd :lol
I was told by the people who gave me the J&J shot that you are good after 1 week, but I read it's really 2 weeks to be considered "fully vaxxed" and after 3 weeks is when you are really fully settled with max protection.
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One other thing that happens with the shot (I'm only referring to the mRNA vaccine) is that it it stays around long enough to teach your system how to fight the virus and then it exits the body. I think that's the main reason for the wait between the first shot and after the second shot.
Here is an excellent article regarding the promising use of mRNA vaccines:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/01/health/mrna-vaccines-covid-future/index.html
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I'm interested in what they told you about time to maximum safety from 2nd shot? I remember everyone talking about 2 weeks but I got vaccinated yesterday and it says it's a week after. I mean, I don't care because I scheduled (seaside) vacation for only a few days after my 2nd :lol
It depends on what shot you get. I don't remember the exact days, but the Moderna shot had a minimum gap from 1st to 2nd (I want to say 24 days) and a maximum gap (I want to say 6 weeks). They are not the same; I think the minimum time is to allow the first shot to trigger the immune system (else it was like getting just one shot), and the maximum time was more about "we haven't studied it this long yet" and so may not be anything more than a precaution.
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I had the Pfizer vaccine, and was told I would be considered "fully vaccinated" around 2 weeks after my second shot.
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Illinois will be entering their Phase 5 / Full Vaccination stage next Friday. That means the state is fully open again for all businesses. I remember seeing the governor's stages last year and thinking how far off we were from having a vaccine. Counties were bouncing between Stage 1 and 2 lockdowns and restrictions throughout the fall of 2020.
It's really weird to know that I won't have to wear a mask in a week, unless mandated by federal/state/local guidelines (i.e. public transportation, etc.).
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Are people experiencing others who are lying about receiving the vaccine? I'm not sure how we would really know; I know for me, far more have gotten the vaccine than are saying "I'm going to wait", but I haven't been checking cards (I do carry mine with me).
We were at a family gathering a couple of weeks ago and one of my dad's cousins was telling us (with a smug look and tone) that "he identifies as vaccinated". He had it once (was in the hospital for five days), and so now doesn't think he needs to be vaccinated. We told him about one of the employees at my dad's restaurant getting it early on, and then six months later getting it again and having it much worse the second time, didn't really seem to move the needle. He also said that he had already procured fake vaccination cards for his kids so they could go back to school in person in the fall because he doesn't think kids should have to get the vaccine.
It's the latter bit that particularly pisses me off. Anybody in the medical field who would forge evidence of vaccination should be at the very least barred from the industry for life, and I wouldn't mind if they all went to jail.
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Are people experiencing others who are lying about receiving the vaccine? I'm not sure how we would really know; I know for me, far more have gotten the vaccine than are saying "I'm going to wait", but I haven't been checking cards (I do carry mine with me).
We were at a family gathering a couple of weeks ago and one of my dad's cousins was telling us (with a smug look and tone) that "he identifies as vaccinated". He had it once (was in the hospital for five days), and so now doesn't think he needs to be vaccinated. We told him about one of the employees at my dad's restaurant getting it early on, and then six months later getting it again and having it much worse the second time, didn't really seem to move the needle. He also said that he had already procured fake vaccination cards for his kids so they could go back to school in person in the fall because he doesn't think kids should have to get the vaccine.
It's the latter bit that particularly pisses me off. Anybody in the medical field who would forge evidence of vaccination should be at the very least barred from the industry for life, and I wouldn't mind if they all went to jail.
And it's examples like this why the US will NEVER achieve 'herd immunity', and we'll still be in this global pandemic for at least 2-3 more years. There's lots of other reasons, but this is one of them. Antibodies from having contracted a disease are weaker and not as long lasting as vaccine effectiveness - oh, not to mention that without a vaccine, people are absolutely vulnerable to the variant strains.
Case in point, Manaus (https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/27/americas/manaus-brazil-covid-19-new-variant-intl/index.html) in the Amazon. TL;DR version - outbreak early in the pandemic with well over 50% of the region contracting COVID and 350 deaths; new outbreak in January .... 1300+ deaths in January alone.
Pervasive was the now demonstrably false notion that Manaus' massive first wave of Covid-19 reached enough of the population to create herd immunity.
Attitudes like your father's cousin are what give fear and worry that a "US variant" is very much possible, if not likely.
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Today is the day! first dose for me :metal
Fingers crossed that I won't get any reactions or spend three days with fever or headache :D
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Are people experiencing others who are lying about receiving the vaccine? I'm not sure how we would really know; I know for me, far more have gotten the vaccine than are saying "I'm going to wait", but I haven't been checking cards (I do carry mine with me).
I have received 100% vaccination status from the FDA approved vaccine.
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"he identifies as vaccinated".
:lol
He also said that he had already procured fake vaccination cards...
It's the latter bit that particularly pisses me off. Anybody in the medical field who would forge evidence of vaccination should be at the very least barred from the industry for life, and I wouldn't mind if they all went to jail.
I got a 3x5-ish piece of paper that has some handwritten stuff on it (dates, locations, vaccine types), some of which wasn't done by anyone in the medical field. If this is my "official vaccination card" it is the least official thing I have ever owned.
I would assume falsifying medical records is already a punishable offense, I am just not sure what constitutes "medical records" when it comes to Covid and its associated vaccines.
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Got my Moderna shot today!
Damn, the arm hurts quite a bit. It's the hurt of when you get hit on it and then the bruise forms, it's not that I'm suffering, but almost every moment of the arm hurts in that "ouch, I got hit there, don't touch the bruise" way.
Hoping I won't develop a fever tonight, so far so good, I'm lucid and I'm not tired.
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Has anyone actually encountered a situation where they needed proof of vaccination? No one's ever asked me to show proof. I think most companies are going to stay well clear of going down that rabbit hole, and for good reason IMO.
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I've yet to be asked
And yesterday I went to a beer and music festival, outdoors with a few thousand people but there was a mosh pit and it was awesome. Not a mask to be seen by anyone. Like covid never existed... except when using Uber
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I've yet to be asked
And yesterday I went to a beer and music festival, outdoors with a few thousand people but there was a mosh pit and it was awesome. Not a mask to be seen by anyone. Like covid never existed... except when using Uber
I went to an outdoor event a couple weekends ago with 10,000 people. Maybe 5% had masks apart from workers. Though eating and drinking was kind of the point of the event, so it would have been difficult to wear one. It felt really nice.
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Has anyone actually encountered a situation where they needed proof of vaccination? No one's ever asked me to show proof. I think most companies are going to stay well clear of going down that rabbit hole, and for good reason IMO.
The electrical contractor I work for is having everyone answer a survey question on their online payroll account, since some jobsites are considering mandating vaccinations. They said it was 100% voluntary to answer the survey, but stated plainly that if this becomes the norm, not getting vaccinated can impact your ability to qualify for a job.
I'm fully vaccinated and answered as such, but when opening up the survey, there was an option to upload supporting documentation. It wasn't required to complete, so I didn't provide it, but I'm curious if that will be required once I move on to the next jobsite.
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"he identifies as vaccinated".
:lol
He also said that he had already procured fake vaccination cards...
It's the latter bit that particularly pisses me off. Anybody in the medical field who would forge evidence of vaccination should be at the very least barred from the industry for life, and I wouldn't mind if they all went to jail.
I got a 3x5-ish piece of paper that has some handwritten stuff on it (dates, locations, vaccine types), some of which wasn't done by anyone in the medical field. If this is my "official vaccination card" it is the least official thing I have ever owned.
I would assume falsifying medical records is already a punishable offense, I am just not sure what constitutes "medical records" when it comes to Covid and its associated vaccines.
But - and not my area of legal expertise - I would question whether there's any real duty to a bartender, or doorman, or greeter at Wal-mart. For there to be a problem with "falsification", there first has to be a duty to tell the truth.
And I'm just throwing the idea out there... what does it matter if that person or persons "identifies as vaccinated"? I'm vaccinated, my kid is vaccinated. There are no guarantees in our life, and to expect guarantees is to be sorely and completely disappointed. I did my part - I tended my garden. The load on the hospitals is now manageable. If that person wants to roll the dice with his/her health, who am I to say anything about that? I know, I know "he's harming me", but so what? People harm me every friggin' day in one form or another, and no one cares, in fact, in some cases, they celebrate it. It's up to me to minimize my harm, not everyone else.
I'm not saying they are right, I'm saying that I don't think I can or should absorb the stress of worrying about something I cannot control, and perhaps, maybe, SHOULDN'T control.
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If a person wants to roll the dice with drinking before 21, we still penalize fake IDs :P
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If a person wants to roll the dice with drinking before 21, we still penalize fake IDs :P
Not back in the day when my parents were teens. It was easier to do this. Now, the only reason why, here in my state, it's hard to get an ID wasn't because of Underage drinking and kids getting fake ID's, it was the illegal immigrants getting ID's that made our legislatures come up with a way to make it harder for them to get an ID, well a Real ID anyways. They also, made the penalties for serving/distributing to an underage person, or if caught making fake IDs, much harsher.
I could even argue, the state has purposes and reasons for doing things. If they really cared about our health and really were concerned, and were adamant about it, they'd do exactly what they're doing with Covid-19 for these other health related ways that people can harm my health. Going to the extremes and lengths to make sure people are healthy. People won't like it, and in a communist country, the people have no choice, as the state knows what's best for it's people and the state makes decision for it's people, the people have no choice or say in the matter at all, that's how China's Society is ran...
We in The United States of America, have a constitution that guarantees it's citizens rights, listed in the Bill of Rights.
First and foremost we, as a country, all must abide by this constitution. Only, Indigenous Peoples of America had to be forced to adopt this policy. Which in fact the constitution was based on an Indigenous constitution.
Stadler makes a great point. Okay, why are you worried about what I do? Are you not being a bit too nosey, up in my business? What are you doing to better yourself, if you are so concerned and worried about me?
This is exactly what I mean by being Self-Dependant and Self-Reliant. Don't be worrying about what "The Other" does. First and foremost, you should be worrying and caring about yourself first. Because people give advice all the time, it's up to that person receiving the advice whether they'll take it to heart and actually act upon it. Most don't even take the advice of their doctor, and in fact it's their own consequences for their choices, If they ignored the doctors advice telling them to stop smoking, eating greasy foods, sugary drinks, and to exercise more and eat a better diet. Does that person do it?No. Then they'll end up blaming "The Other" because they are now susceptible to a disease Pandemic. It's a persons Self-Responsibility to listen to their doctors advice, so they won't end up being susceptible. It's not my fault, or societies fault, I am not in control of ones health or body. Being Self-Dependant and being Self-Responsible, means holding accountability for yourself and your decision, and the consequences involved in those decisions. You should be making these choices and decisions with careful thought.
Which leads to this question. Did people really get the vaccine for their health? Or because they just wanted to get back to the comforts of life and their daily routines?
Actions speak louder than words. And you know what, I question peoples actions all the time. Because they speak about things, but then end up not acting upon it. Like how some preach words, but don't end up living what they preach, example Catholism/Christians, imagine if they lived like their Savior Jesus told them too.
Like Stads said, there are no guarantees in life. You don't know if you'll even wake up the next day. You could very likely asphyxiate on your saliva while sleeping and no would know until it's too late. Humans are not guaranteed life. No being is guaranteed life.
And it's your life to live, just live your life without any worries about what "The Other" does. Stop making unnecessary stress on yourself, which can lead to worry, and you overwhelm yourself with it, and you become more susceptible to sickness and diseases.
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Bill, I see your point, but I still think you're full of shit. :lol :lol
When someone lies to intentionally disregard the protocols that are being put in place to minimize the risk of others, yeah ... I care. If you don't, all the power to you.
How would you feel if someone driving with a blood alcohol level in the 0.teens "identifies as sober"? Rhetorical question, please do not answer it as I'm not sure I'm ready to hear some manner of defense on that :biggrin:.
As a society, we place restrictions on impaired (drug/alcohol) people for the health and safety of others, so I have no issue in placing restrictions on unvaccinated people. Maybe it's not the best analogy*, but someone who wilfully and maliciously misrepresents something that might have an impact on others' health (either directly with the current strains, or in being part of the group that is contributing to the potential of developing a new strain/variant), yeah... I care.
Yes, I can do my part, but I'm not simply going to be forgiving and dismissive of others that are (imo) not only NOT doing their part, but actively doing an 'opposing' part.
* Perhaps the closer analogy is that we don't allow HIV infected persons to have unprotected intercourse without disclosing this fact. Again, not perfect, so don't feel the need to pick it apart. Hopefully you get the point - even if you disagree with it.
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Bill, I see your point, but I still think you're full of shit. :lol :lol
When someone lies to intentionally disregard the protocols that are being put in place to minimize the risk of others, yeah ... I care. If you don't, all the power to you.
How would you feel if someone driving with a blood alcohol level in the 0.teens "identifies as sober"? Rhetorical question, please do not answer it as I'm not sure I'm ready to hear some manner of defense on that :biggrin:.
As a society, we place restrictions on impaired (drug/alcohol) people for the health and safety of others, so I have no issue in placing restrictions on unvaccinated people. Maybe it's not the best analogy*, but someone who wilfully and maliciously misrepresents something that might have an impact on others' health (either directly with the current strains, or in being part of the group that is contributing to the potential of developing a new strain/variant), yeah... I care.
Yes, I can do my part, but I'm not simply going to be forgiving and dismissive of others that are (imo) not only NOT doing their part, but actively doing an 'opposing' part.
* Perhaps the closer analogy is that we don't allow HIV infected persons to have unprotected intercourse without disclosing this fact. Again, not perfect, so don't feel the need to pick it apart. Hopefully you get the point - even if you disagree with it.
With your logic, I think humanity as whole is not doing it's part to protect the health of our Mother Earth. We are not doing our part, we are actively doing the opposing, which is causing The Earth to Heal Itself, in turn causing our Destruction and even possibly, extinction.
Yet, I don't fault anyone. It's just life. And human nature doing it's part. We humans lost a connection to the Earth. To the point where some people dream about living in the stars, on another planet.
You could have all the restrictions in the world made and yet, life will still find a way around it. Humans are not indestructible, and never will be. It's a false reality to believe in this, and people are striving and finding ways to become indestructible.
Humans like to place blame on "The Other" rather than reflecting upon oneself and understanding it was their own consequence for their decision and choice. Leaders do this all the time, they blame the other country, or find a scapegoat, in order to not face those consequences. It's why we had to make a system of laws, because people lie all the time. It's a way to get honesty out of a situation and to know and understand the honest truth. It's why, people swear to tell the whole truth, and are put under oath.
The maliciousness and willful acts of the Colonists developing and destroying all the things us Indigenous Peoples relied on for our health is one that no one cares about. They misrepresented whom we are, by manipulation to their congregations. So should I be blaming all the immigrant white people for this...Maybe? But I don't, really blame them, I am more saddened by what was lost and what these people were and how they acted and treated people.
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If a person wants to roll the dice with drinking before 21, we still penalize fake IDs :P
Don't assume I agree with that.
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If a person wants to roll the dice with drinking before 21, we still penalize fake IDs :P
Don't assume I agree with that.
A wise man once told me that one should see things for how they are, not for how they want them to be.
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Bill, I see your point, but I still think you're full of shit. :lol :lol
When someone lies to intentionally disregard the protocols that are being put in place to minimize the risk of others, yeah ... I care. If you don't, all the power to you.
How would you feel if someone driving with a blood alcohol level in the 0.teens "identifies as sober"? Rhetorical question, please do not answer it as I'm not sure I'm ready to hear some manner of defense on that :biggrin:.
As a society, we place restrictions on impaired (drug/alcohol) people for the health and safety of others, so I have no issue in placing restrictions on unvaccinated people. Maybe it's not the best analogy*, but someone who wilfully and maliciously misrepresents something that might have an impact on others' health (either directly with the current strains, or in being part of the group that is contributing to the potential of developing a new strain/variant), yeah... I care.
Yes, I can do my part, but I'm not simply going to be forgiving and dismissive of others that are (imo) not only NOT doing their part, but actively doing an 'opposing' part.
* Perhaps the closer analogy is that we don't allow HIV infected persons to have unprotected intercourse without disclosing this fact. Again, not perfect, so don't feel the need to pick it apart. Hopefully you get the point - even if you disagree with it.
Not for nothing, but it's a little... frustrating to read "[point one], but don't pick it apart!" and "[point two], but don't pick it apart!". We're not talking about personal views, we're talking about the intersection of personal rights, what we can hold OTHERS to, and what should be the punishment. That needs to be discussed, and as important as one persons's view is, it's only one half of the equation. If I sleep with someone that has the AIDS and doesn't tell me, I can sue them. I have recourse. The point I'm trying to make - and it holds across the board, because if nothing else, I'm pretty goddamn consistent - is that what we, individually, believe may not be what everyone else believes and that's a problem when it comes to who gets to be heard. Just because there's "harm" doesn't answer the question of whose rights "trump".
If I ask Mora if she's vaccinated, yes or no I'm taking it on faith. She's got no obligation whatsoever to be truthful to me, other than her own conscience, and my only recourse is to pursue her for damages in the event I rely on her word and it's false. The answer to all the world's problems isn't "more laws!". Government is not here to make sure we're bundled up in a safe little cocoon.
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If a person wants to roll the dice with drinking before 21, we still penalize fake IDs :P
Don't assume I agree with that.
A wise man once told me that one should see things for how they are, not for how they want them to be.
??? I don't get that; I'm the poster boy for seeing the world the way it is not the way I want it to be. That's the crux of 95% of my arguments (and why I get called an "apologist" so often). What is the basic premise of "tend your own garden" than accepting the world the way it is?
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If I sleep with someone that has the AIDS and doesn't tell me, I can sue them. I have recourse.
Exactly. The premise is the same between HIV and COVID. Both are a contagious virus. If you (royal) spread HIV, you're harming the health of someone else. If you spread COVID, you're harming the health of someone else. In it's most basic comparable terms, this seems pretty straight-forward. But if someone spreads COVID to me, I have ZERO recourse. Even if that person did so knowingly, and while in willful and malicious breach of protocols and health regulations/guidelines. THAT is what I have a problem with. It's kinda like "suck it up, buttercup". And I'm not prepared to dismiss/forgive those with that attitude, to the limit that it's my responsibility to tend my own garden. I'd like to see some responsibility on others not to fuck up my garden.
The answer to all the world's problems isn't "more laws!". Government is not here to make sure we're bundled up in a safe little cocoon.
Maybe not a "safe little cocoon", but I'm pretty sure that is the purpose of laws created by government - to safeguard its citizens. But by this measure, you're against the HIV laws around intercourse? If not, I'm confused.
Re: the last post, I was trying to poke a little fun at you I know you're the poster boy - I was referencing your wisdom, you knucklehead! You seemed opposed to penalizing people who drink via the use of fake id's - but, dem's da laws. Well, I'm opposed to people disregarding my health, but the response seems to boil down to 'sorry 'bout your views, deal with it'. I'm being brutally callous in that last statement, I know that's not exactly what you're suggesting.
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the penalty should be wearing a mask everywhere in shame. Put an "A" on them. :lol
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If I sleep with someone that has the AIDS and doesn't tell me, I can sue them. I have recourse.
Exactly. The premise is the same between HIV and COVID. Both are a contagious virus. If you (royal) spread HIV, you're harming the health of someone else. If you spread COVID, you're harming the health of someone else. In it's most basic comparable terms, this seems pretty straight-forward. But if someone spreads COVID to me, I have ZERO recourse. Even if that person did so knowingly, and while in willful and malicious breach of protocols and health regulations/guidelines. THAT is what I have a problem with. It's kinda like "suck it up, buttercup". And I'm not prepared to dismiss/forgive those with that attitude, to the limit that it's my responsibility to tend my own garden. I'd like to see some responsibility on others not to fuck up my garden.
You do not have zero recourse. If you can sue someone for infecting you with HIV, you can sue someone for infecting you with the COVID. There's no difference between the two in that regard (I'm not talking about the laws in some states - I think it's up to 20 now, or 21 - that make it a crime; I'm talking simple tort).
As for the latter, you and I just have to disagree. It's not the world's problem to make sure my precious little garden is pristine. We've spoiled ourselves into thinking we're entitled to that, and we're not.
The answer to all the world's problems isn't "more laws!". Government is not here to make sure we're bundled up in a safe little cocoon.
Maybe not a "safe little cocoon", but I'm pretty sure that is the purpose of laws created by government - to safeguard its citizens. But by this measure, you're against the HIV laws around intercourse? If not, I'm confused.
I'm confused by your confusion. Seriously. I'll answer you, but I'm not sure what you're asking.
It's obviously a matter of opinion, and debate, but depending where you fall on the traditional "conservative/liberal" (I DO NOT mean Republican and Democrat, I mean historical "role of government" ideology) spectrum, "safeguard" can have a wide meaning. "Protect from outside interests", that is to say, other country's armies? Sure!!! We certainly do not want each person to have to muster their own army to protect against an invasion by Canada. "Protect me personally from any harm or shortfall that may ever occur"? Not to me. That's neither practical or possible. But even beyond that, too often today it seems that the world "safeguard" now means "shield me from people I think - unilaterally - are douchebags".
Re: the last post, I was trying to poke a little fun at you I know you're the poster boy - I was referencing your wisdom, you knucklehead! You seemed opposed to penalizing people who drink via the use of fake id's - but, dem's da laws. Well, I'm opposed to people disregarding my health, but the response seems to boil down to 'sorry 'bout your views, deal with it'. I'm being brutally callous in that last statement, I know that's not exactly what you're suggesting.
Well, to be fair, that's not far from what I'm suggesting. You're right, I AM 'dem's the laws', because at some point, someone smarter than you or me made them the laws, and they've endured for decades. We don't get to ignore laws we don't like just because we don't like them. A good example is weed; I am 100% for the legalization of marijuana, but I don't at all agree with the concept of "well, even if there is a law, it's harmless so go fuck yourself". It's illegal, deal with it, and if you don't like the law, CHANGE IT. And drinking ID's falls in this category. The drinking age (as well as Sunday abstinence) is largely for religious reasons. The age has raised for medical concerns, but if it was really about medical issues, the drinking age would be 25, 26 since kids' brains don't fully form until then. So it really makes little practical sense. Most laws like this aren't about the specific law - it's not meant to literally stop 19 year olds from drinking (most states actually DON'T make consumption illegal, only the purchase and sale), only to provide another means of punishment in case something ELSE bad happens.
But to me, "people disregarding my health" falls into a different category. It becomes purely subjective and allows for too much in-the-moment judgment by people that may or may not have a vested interest in the outcome. There need not be LAWS requiring someone else to "not disregard your health"; if they do, carelessly or wantonly, then you have recourse through the courts. Plenty of lawyers will take that case for free, if it exists. Past the point of pandemic, I don't see why that's not the path forward. When we were in crisis, it made sense, since I can't individually tell if the emergency rooms were over-saturated, and even if I could it's not within my power to change that. But we should all be starting from the premise that "no one can protect me better than me." and move out from there.
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you and I just have to disagree.
Agreed. I may need to sig this. Right after the one I have saved that "Jingle is right as rain". :rollin
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you and I just have to disagree.
Agreed. I may need to sig this. Right after the one I have saved that "Jingle is right as rain". :rollin
Can ya have it both ways? :) :)
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you and I just have to disagree.
Agreed. I may need to sig this. Right after the one I have saved that "Jingle is right as rain". :rollin
Can ya have it both ways? :) :)
There ain’t good guy, there ain’t no bad guy........
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BTW, I got away with just one day of sore arm, like when you're hit and got a big bruise, from my first Moderna dose. No fever, no headache, no weird stuff, just a day without being able to lift the arm.... I was lucky then, where do I sign to have just 24 hours of sore arm for the second shot as well?
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you and I just have to disagree.
Agreed. I may need to sig this. Right after the one I have saved that "Jingle is right as rain". :rollin
Can ya have it both ways? :) :)
There ain’t good guy, there ain’t no bad guy........
There's just you and me and we just disagree......... :corn
#OldiesButGoodies
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Ha! We are being magnetized and loaded with 5G!
OHIO: Anti-vaccine *expert* witness claims vaccine causes forks and keys to stick to your forehead and it’s linked to 5G network towers…. Up there trying to out-Tennessee us!
https://twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1402408416228806663?s=20
:facepalm:
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Ha! We are being magnetized and loaded with 5G!
OHIO: Anti-vaccine *expert* witness claims vaccine causes forks and keys to stick to your forehead and it’s linked to 5G network towers…. Up there trying to out-Tennessee us!
https://twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1402408416228806663?s=20
:facepalm:
Don't forget to say, "Beam me up, Scotty." when the Aliens come and rapture all the vaccinated people up in their UFO's. :corn :corn :corn :biggrin:
This is actually a great article about Gullibility....
https://phys.org/news/2017-03-people-gullible.html
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If she's worried about proteins with metals in them, she's going to be horrified when she finds out what's in blood.
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Goddammit.
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I probably already said it, but I hope that the next disaster is gonna be acid rain, just to enjoy seeing people whining and bitching about umbrellas and waterproof coats.
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I hope we have a moratorium on disasters for a while, so we can (hopefully) reset. I think it's high time that we start to udnerstand better how we as people work in the (new) environment we're finding ourselves in, where increasingly our tethers to society are more and more unreliable (I'm thinking of social media, though that's not the entirety of it). I don't think the people pointing fingers and laughing are being fully sympathetic to how much these people's world view is being challenged, and I think that the more "kind" we can be to some of these people the better chance we have of increasing our collective understanding. It's high time that we reject this idea that "you don't agree therefore you're dumb, deplorable, and my mocking and marginalization is fully acceptable", which of course ASSUMES we know why they disagree, and start to have the first step be "why do you disagree, what is driving that?" so we can have more meaningful dialogue.
Just by way of example, I'm in no way, shape or form an anti-vaxxer, but I do, kind of, understand it. My stepson - who I love and admire - is on the spectrum, and I watch his parents struggle with that every day in every way, INCLUDING finding answers as to "why" (it doesn't help that one of them is as insecure as a screen door in a hurricane; for him, every "answer" is predicated on "mom is a c***"). People NEED answers to things that don't always have answers, and we are by our nature "trained" to see patterns, even when there are no patterns. Yes, education - and so much of education is REPETITION - would help, but how many of us are secure, aware, and disciplined enough to say "I have a world view, and even though it's my belief, I know it's wrong, so I'm going to literally retrain my brain to be 'right'?"
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Florida stopped reporting daily cases.
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I probably already said it, but I hope that the next disaster is gonna be acid rain, just to enjoy seeing people whining and bitching about umbrellas and waterproof coats.
"We better stay inside...at least, until the squirrels stop melting" (https://youtu.be/ccQoSl5buQ4)
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Ha! We are being magnetized and loaded with 5G!
OHIO: Anti-vaccine *expert* witness claims vaccine causes forks and keys to stick to your forehead and it’s linked to 5G network towers…. Up there trying to out-Tennessee us!
https://twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1402408416228806663?s=20 (https://twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1402408416228806663?s=20)
:facepalm:
I'll see your :facepalm:
And raise you three :rollin :rollin :rollin
"....but we don't know about the metals that are associated with this new interface of stuff that's introducing magnetism, not animal magnetism like 80's Tom Selleck or The Marlboro Man, but metal on metal magnetism like suddenly everyone who got the vaccine has forks and knives sticking to their foreheads and chests and, well, I don't know how much you know about fork-chest-magnetism but I happen to be an expert in the field and I can tell you right here and now that the 5G signals are bouncing off the amygdala glands of the children of the corn and when they come down from Witch Mountain to ride the lightning it could signal the end of society as we know it....."
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It's high time that we reject this idea that "you don't agree therefore you're dumb, deplorable, and my mocking and marginalization is fully acceptable", which of course ASSUMES we know why they disagree, and start to have the first step be "why do you disagree, what is driving that?" so we can have more meaningful dialogue.
Is it really worth wasting your time trying to have rational conversations with people who think the earth is flat, the world is controlled by lizard people or that getting a vaccine makes forks stick to your head? Nah.
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It's high time that we reject this idea that "you don't agree therefore you're dumb, deplorable, and my mocking and marginalization is fully acceptable", which of course ASSUMES we know why they disagree, and start to have the first step be "why do you disagree, what is driving that?" so we can have more meaningful dialogue.
Is it really worth wasting your time trying to have rational conversations with people who think the earth is flat, the world is controlled by lizard people or that getting a vaccine makes forks stick to your head? Nah.
If you are so concerned about it, then yes, it should be worth your time.
Most, are not concerned and just go and tend their own garden.
But, understanding why they believe those things is a start to discussing.
It's been this way since different societies met. When one has a certain belief, and the other has a certain belief. And when one has a view that they consider "Right" that the other views as "Wrong" is when culture clashes happen.
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But, understanding why they believe those things is a start to discussing.
So this is an interesting thought as I had an experience today and I was thinking about this very thing..
I was in the drive through CVS picking up a script. A big girl comes out of the house across the street and she's wearing a mask. Now I live in a very small town, and there's certainly no sidewalk traffic, meaning that there is NO ONE around her. She's the only pedestrian I can see. She walks and eventually crosses the street in front of me. It was like 90 degrees today, and I was like WTF??
I really just wanted to jump out of my car and say that I'm not in any way trying to harass her or passing any judgement on her, but I just wanted to ask her WHY did she have her mask on?
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But, understanding why they believe those things is a start to discussing.
So this is an interesting thought as I had an experience today and I was thinking about this very thing..
I was in the drive through CVS picking up a script. A big girl comes out of the house across the street and she's wearing a mask. Now I live in a very small town, and there's certainly no sidewalk traffic, meaning that there is NO ONE around her. She's the only pedestrian I can see. She walks and eventually crosses the street in front of me. It was like 90 degrees today, and I was like WTF??
I really just wanted to jump out of my car and say that I'm not in any way trying to harass her or passing any judgement on her, but I just wanted to ask her WHY did she have her mask on?
Yeah. I do wonder why too...
What I think, is they are concerned out of fear. The fear, is causing them to question things, even the CDC decisions. Their thunder buddy of comfort and safety got more cushion and they don't want to leave it. They, themselves, think they are keeping themselves safe by still wearing the mask. One fear and concern, is clouding them from other concerns, like passing out in the heat with that mask on.
I find it funny, because it was the CDC that told them to mask up, and people voluntarily did so, because they felt more safe in doing so. And now the CDC says vaccinated people are fine, and don't have to mask up, yet people voluntarily still wear them.
Where is the line to when it becomes a case of fear, and a case of a concern?
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Yeah, I told my wife the same story and she said that it was Fauci that has scared everyone. Not to go into "The Politics OF The Coronavirus" territory.
I went to the store today, and I work in a store, and I honestly am very surprised at how many people are still masking up.
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Yeah, I told my wife the same story and she said that it was Fauci that has scared everyone. Not to go into "The Politics OF The Coronavirus" territory.
I went to the store today, and I work in a store, and I honestly am very surprised at how many people are still masking up.
It's crazier how people are now being fearful of people mask shaming them for wearing a mask. Because they don't want to be accused of being an unvaccinated person for wearing a mask. As, unvaccinated people should be wearing masks. Or like the sign at the Albertsons I went to says "It is Encouraged for unvaccinated people to wear a mask."
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As part of my job today, I went to a hardware store, a lumber yard, a paint store and a tile store. Some require masks for all customers, others for just non-vaccinated. It is too annoying to keep track of which store is which, so I just have my mask on any time I go to a store, since it is too annoying to keep track of which stores have which policies.
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It's high time that we reject this idea that "you don't agree therefore you're dumb, deplorable, and my mocking and marginalization is fully acceptable", which of course ASSUMES we know why they disagree, and start to have the first step be "why do you disagree, what is driving that?" so we can have more meaningful dialogue.
Is it really worth wasting your time trying to have rational conversations with people who think the earth is flat, the world is controlled by lizard people or that getting a vaccine makes forks stick to your head? Nah.
It is, though, if you get into the psychology of it. With exceptions, of course, we're finding that many of the more radical ideas we're seeing today are rooted in common ground of insecurity and marginalization. Further marginalizing them DOES NOT WORK, and only makes the problem WORSE. So even if you don't change their minds in the present tense, by engaging them thoughtfully - as opposed to confrontationally - you set the stage to either move them more to the accepted line of thinking or at the very least, move them away from some of the more fringe ideas.
Look, if this is about YOUR (generally, not you Soupytwist) insecurity in YOUR position - where you have to WIN, where you have to CRUSH those deplorables that disagree with you - then keep on keeping on. Have at it. But if you're really about minimizing this trend to extremity - and it's on both sides, make no mistake, even if you (and now I am talking to individuals) believe your "side" is "better at it" - then we do what we have to do. This is the geopolitical version of "of course that dress looks great on you; but why don't you go with something more casual?". Diplomacy.
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As part of my job today, I went to a hardware store, a lumber yard, a paint store and a tile store. Some require masks for all customers, others for just non-vaccinated. It is too annoying to keep track of which store is which, so I just have my mask on any time I go to a store, since it is too annoying to keep track of which stores have which policies.
Yup, I'm mentally preparing myself for this idiocy come next week.
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It's high time that we reject this idea that "you don't agree therefore you're dumb, deplorable, and my mocking and marginalization is fully acceptable", which of course ASSUMES we know why they disagree, and start to have the first step be "why do you disagree, what is driving that?" so we can have more meaningful dialogue.
Is it really worth wasting your time trying to have rational conversations with people who think the earth is flat, the world is controlled by lizard people or that getting a vaccine makes forks stick to your head? Nah.
It is, though, if you get into the psychology of it. With exceptions, of course, we're finding that many of the more radical ideas we're seeing today are rooted in common ground of insecurity and marginalization. Further marginalizing them DOES NOT WORK, and only makes the problem WORSE. So even if you don't change their minds in the present tense, by engaging them thoughtfully - as opposed to confrontationally - you set the stage to either move them more to the accepted line of thinking or at the very least, move them away from some of the more fringe ideas.
People are entitled to believe whatever they want, I'm not interested or arrogant enough to think I can change their mind.
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It's high time that we reject this idea that "you don't agree therefore you're dumb, deplorable, and my mocking and marginalization is fully acceptable", which of course ASSUMES we know why they disagree, and start to have the first step be "why do you disagree, what is driving that?" so we can have more meaningful dialogue.
Is it really worth wasting your time trying to have rational conversations with people who think the earth is flat, the world is controlled by lizard people or that getting a vaccine makes forks stick to your head? Nah.
It is, though, if you get into the psychology of it. With exceptions, of course, we're finding that many of the more radical ideas we're seeing today are rooted in common ground of insecurity and marginalization. Further marginalizing them DOES NOT WORK, and only makes the problem WORSE. So even if you don't change their minds in the present tense, by engaging them thoughtfully - as opposed to confrontationally - you set the stage to either move them more to the accepted line of thinking or at the very least, move them away from some of the more fringe ideas.
People are entitled to believe whatever they want, I'm not interested or arrogant enough to think I can change their mind.
Fair enough, I'm with you on that, but do you - do any of us - have an implicit duty to not make the problem worse in service of our own ego? How is that any different than that what we argue against?
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It's high time that we reject this idea that "you don't agree therefore you're dumb, deplorable, and my mocking and marginalization is fully acceptable", which of course ASSUMES we know why they disagree, and start to have the first step be "why do you disagree, what is driving that?" so we can have more meaningful dialogue.
Is it really worth wasting your time trying to have rational conversations with people who think the earth is flat, the world is controlled by lizard people or that getting a vaccine makes forks stick to your head? Nah.
It is, though, if you get into the psychology of it. With exceptions, of course, we're finding that many of the more radical ideas we're seeing today are rooted in common ground of insecurity and marginalization. Further marginalizing them DOES NOT WORK, and only makes the problem WORSE. So even if you don't change their minds in the present tense, by engaging them thoughtfully - as opposed to confrontationally - you set the stage to either move them more to the accepted line of thinking or at the very least, move them away from some of the more fringe ideas.
People are entitled to believe whatever they want, I'm not interested or arrogant enough to think I can change their mind.
The purpose isn't to change their minds. It's to understand, why. It's an understanding of "The Other" Culture.
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Fair enough, I'm with you on that, but do you - do any of us - have an implicit duty to not make the problem worse in service of our own ego? How is that any different than that what we argue against?
I (and most likely everybody) have my own set of red flags. I'm happy to engage with anyone on common interests, but if one of those red flags appears I'll look to politely change the subject or leave the conversation. An easy example is if I ever got the chance to have a one to one with Tom Cruise I'd love to talk to him about his movies and career, but if he started talking about Scientology I'd be uncomfortable.
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Florida stopped reporting daily cases.
I can see this becoming a trend for other states very soon.
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The purpose isn't to change their minds. It's to understand, why. It's an understanding of "The Other" Culture.
The Psychology of what drives the behavior of the human mind is no doubt an extremely fascinating subject, but not one I (or many) can personally claim to have much understanding in.
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The purpose isn't to change their minds. It's to understand, why. It's an understanding of "The Other" Culture.
The Psychology of what drives the behavior of the human mind is no doubt an extremely fascinating subject, but not one I (or many) can personally claim to have much understanding in.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to pound on you, but your post triggered the idea: that's fine, no one said that we all have to be experts. But just as we defer to experts on climate change, and virology, and economics, so here. I'm really not pointing at you, but there are a lot of people that don't just "walk away uncomfortably"; they engage, and in an aggressive, marginalizing way. I think we all have to take a step back and look in the mirror at the old "accepted" ways of dealing with people we don't see eye-to-eye with and perhaps contemplate that our behaviors have made the problem WORSE - inadvertently - not better. We've evolved our thinking with so many things over the years, why not "social and political disagreement"?
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The purpose isn't to change their minds. It's to understand, why. It's an understanding of "The Other" Culture.
The Psychology of what drives the behavior of the human mind is no doubt an extremely fascinating subject, but not one I (or many) can personally claim to have much understanding in.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to pound on you, but your post triggered the idea: that's fine, no one said that we all have to be experts. But just as we defer to experts on climate change, and virology, and economics, so here. I'm really not pointing at you, but there are a lot of people that don't just "walk away uncomfortably"; they engage, and in an aggressive, marginalizing way. I think we all have to take a step back and look in the mirror at the old "accepted" ways of dealing with people we don't see eye-to-eye with and perhaps contemplate that our behaviors have made the problem WORSE - inadvertently - not better. We've evolved our thinking with so many things over the years, why not "social and political disagreement"?
Aside from the fact I really don't want you pounding on me ;D I agree with you.
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I just got out of a meeting with a gal that still masks up in the office. She's fully vaccinated but her husband is on medication where he can't take the vaccine so to mitigate risk, she masks when meeting with people.
People that are immunocompromised, like aids patients or cancer patients undergoing chemo treatment will often wear masks even outdoors so mask wearing is not just for COVID.
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The purpose isn't to change their minds. It's to understand, why. It's an understanding of "The Other" Culture.
The Psychology of what drives the behavior of the human mind is no doubt an extremely fascinating subject, but not one I (or many) can personally claim to have much understanding in.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to pound on you, but your post triggered the idea: that's fine, no one said that we all have to be experts. But just as we defer to experts on climate change, and virology, and economics, so here. I'm really not pointing at you, but there are a lot of people that don't just "walk away uncomfortably"; they engage, and in an aggressive, marginalizing way. I think we all have to take a step back and look in the mirror at the old "accepted" ways of dealing with people we don't see eye-to-eye with and perhaps contemplate that our behaviors have made the problem WORSE - inadvertently - not better. We've evolved our thinking with so many things over the years, why not "social and political disagreement"?
Aside from the fact I really don't want you pounding on me ;D I agree with you.
Poor choice of words. :) :tup
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The purpose isn't to change their minds. It's to understand, why. It's an understanding of "The Other" Culture.
The Psychology of what drives the behavior of the human mind is no doubt an extremely fascinating subject, but not one I (or many) can personally claim to have much understanding in.
of course not, and differences of Cultures, and differences of Societies, all play an important role in the behavior of the human mind, and what makes one do the things they do.
None are necessarily right or wrong. That's just how they do things. When one starts declaring itself the right way, and then starts to shun "The Others" way of doing things, such as declaring it blasphemy, then a culture clash occurs which has lead to genocide, indoctrination, and even falls of societies as people leave and form newer cities/villages, leaving the once great city/village just a hollow shell of it's former greatness.
The purpose isn't to change their minds. It's to understand, why. It's an understanding of "The Other" Culture.
The Psychology of what drives the behavior of the human mind is no doubt an extremely fascinating subject, but not one I (or many) can personally claim to have much understanding in.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to pound on you, but your post triggered the idea: that's fine, no one said that we all have to be experts. But just as we defer to experts on climate change, and virology, and economics, so here. I'm really not pointing at you, but there are a lot of people that don't just "walk away uncomfortably"; they engage, and in an aggressive, marginalizing way. I think we all have to take a step back and look in the mirror at the old "accepted" ways of dealing with people we don't see eye-to-eye with and perhaps contemplate that our behaviors have made the problem WORSE - inadvertently - not better. We've evolved our thinking with so many things over the years, why not "social and political disagreement"?
Precisely. It's Society itself that needs a reflective intervention. In this case, it's the American Society. It's why I have asked before, what are American values and ideals? What is the American Culture?
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There are just too many conversations that have some form of "I can't understand why..." and that understanding is the crux of the issue. We seem to have crossed a milestone on "understanding" the black experience, the homosexual experience, the trans experience. I think we need to make headroads in "understanding" the liberal experience, the conservative experience, the poor experience, the rich experience. We've grown to an almost unmanageable size now; we're at 330 million people who are all unique and special and deserve to be heard. When the country was formed, we were 2.5 million people who were focused on living past the age of 26.
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Without getting too far astray, I don't think "I can't understand why..." is the crux of the issue. I don't need to understand why you think differently than I do on X issue in order to simply recognize that you do think differently, and to recognize that, despite that, you are still a human being that is entitled to the same dignity and respect that I am, no matter what your thinking on any issue. And I think the latter is far more important than understanding "why."
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Without getting too far astray, I don't think "I can't understand why..." is the crux of the issue. I don't need to understand why you think differently than I do on X issue in order to simply recognize that you do think differently, and to recognize that, despite that, you are still a human being that is entitled to the same dignity and respect that I am, not matter what your thinking on any issue. And I think the latter is far more important than understanding "why."
This something that I has always bothered me. A human is a human and should be treated as an equal.
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Without getting too far astray, I don't think "I can't understand why..." is the crux of the issue. I don't need to understand why you think differently than I do on X issue in order to simply recognize that you do think differently, and to recognize that, despite that, you are still a human being that is entitled to the same dignity and respect that I am, not matter what your thinking on any issue. And I think the latter is far more important than understanding "why."
This something that I has always bothered me. A human is a human and should be treated as an equal.
Exactly. Except the French.
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Croissants are a gift from the French. They get a pass.
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Croissants are a gift from the French. They get a pass.
Never!
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Without getting too far astray, I don't think "I can't understand why..." is the crux of the issue. I don't need to understand why you think differently than I do on X issue in order to simply recognize that you do think differently, and to recognize that, despite that, you are still a human being that is entitled to the same dignity and respect that I am, no matter what your thinking on any issue. And I think the latter is far more important than understanding "why."
I actually won't argue that. I'm cool with jumping right to that sort of "tolerance". I just figured that "understanding" was a requisite for some people, since most of the latest identity politics thrust is well past just "tolerance" and firmly entrenched in "acceptance". I'm just looking for the same attitudes towards those that we don't agree with as we give to the special interests du jour. (That's a cynical way of looking at it, but I'm making a point.)
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New vaccination calendar for Norway just dropped, I should get offered a first shot in about a month and then the second one 12 weeks later (somewhere in October). 18-24yos likely get to go ahead of 25-39yos.
I'm, like, dying of boredom over here. The price of only using the fancy vaccines and buying just enough of them so that when there's a slight delay in production, it delays your country's entire vaccine schedule! My lipsticks are expiring slowly in a drawer. :lol
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Lipstick has a shelf life?
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The last step towards normalcy happened today, at work I'm no longer required to take a temperature scan and no longer need to wear a mask if vaccinated. This was the only place where I've been masking up for the last few weeks.
Having gone to a concert, gone on dates, went to an arcade, went to packed bars/restuarants, saw my Mom who came up from Florida, going to a wedding this weekend.... life is back to normal here in NJ.
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New vaccination calendar for Norway just dropped, I should get offered a first shot in about a month and then the second one 12 weeks later (somewhere in October). 18-24yos likely get to go ahead of 25-39yos.
I'm, like, dying of boredom over here. The price of only using the fancy vaccines and buying just enough of them so that when there's a slight delay in production, it delays your country's entire vaccine schedule! My lipsticks are expiring slowly in a drawer. :lol
There are places around the globe that are offering vaccination vacations. Travel to a country and get the shot along with checking out the sites of that country.
Just a thought...............
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California drops a ton of restrictions today. Unfortunately both my jobs still require masking up.
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California drops a ton of restrictions today. Unfortunately both my jobs still require masking up.
I think those who serve food is the last in line to drop the masks. Which sucks for you.
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The UK has delayed it's final dropping of major restrictions by four weeks. It was going to be next Monday, now it'll be 19 July. Mainly due to the Delta variant being so much more transmissable and becoming widespread across the UK, the intention is to give more time to get all adults at least their first jab, and to get millions more people fully vaccinated.
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The UK has delayed it's final dropping of major restrictions by four weeks. It was going to be next Monday, now it'll be 19 July. Mainly due to the Delta variant being so much more transmissable and becoming widespread across the UK, the intention is to give more time to get all adults at least their first jab, and to get millions more people fully vaccinated.
Does the UK have the same hesitancy problem as the US? As in, does this 4 extra week actually buy the time needed to make a difference? It feels like here in the US, if you haven't gotten a shot yet, you likely aren't and with things fully open, there's no longer much of an incentive to get one. (should be noted the US is still doing about 1M shots a day, so my statement isn't entirely accurate but certainly feels that way from anyone not vaccinated that I've spoken to)
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California drops a ton of restrictions today. Unfortunately both my jobs still require masking up.
I think those who serve food is the last in line to drop the masks. Which sucks for you.
According to state guidelines it's open pending on vaccination status, unless the individual businesses dictate otherwise
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California drops a ton of restrictions today. Unfortunately both my jobs still require masking up.
I think those who serve food is the last in line to drop the masks. Which sucks for you.
According to state guidelines it's open pending on vaccination status, unless the individual businesses dictate otherwise
Right but, just a guess, most restaurants will hold off longer than most businesses. Just a hunch.
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The UK has delayed it's final dropping of major restrictions by four weeks. It was going to be next Monday, now it'll be 19 July. Mainly due to the Delta variant being so much more transmissable and becoming widespread across the UK, the intention is to give more time to get all adults at least their first jab, and to get millions more people fully vaccinated.
Does the UK have the same hesitancy problem as the US? As in, does this 4 extra week actually buy the time needed to make a difference? It feels like here in the US, if you haven't gotten a shot yet, you likely aren't and with things fully open, there's no longer much of an incentive to get one. (should be noted the US is still doing about 1M shots a day, so my statement isn't entirely accurate but certainly feels that way from anyone not vaccinated that I've spoken to)
Nope, some people expressed some level of hesitancy, but take-up has been very high. For older age ranges, take-up is really, really high (95%+ from age 65 and up). There was some concern that younger generations might be more hesitant because they see less need for it, but take-up so far has been good. On the day that ages 25-29 became eligible to book a first fab, more than 1 million people signed up that very day (which is about a quarter of that entire demographic, just in one day).
So the issue has very much not been about hesitancy, so as a result the squeeze has been on the practical rollout/supply in terms of how many doses can be administered in any given day/week. So in that sense, yes these 4 weeks can make a massive difference to the amount that people are protected (millions of new first jabs, and millions of new second doses giving fuller protection).
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That makes senes since the hesitancy is low. Good on the people out there to get the jab and being informed. I spoke to my friend who is not vaccinated (and refuses to) if he was aware of the Delta variant and he was not. People here in the US are just ignorant to the reality. He previously had told me "I'm 35 and healthy so no need" which is a big :facepalm: to me.
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New vaccination calendar for Norway just dropped, I should get offered a first shot in about a month and then the second one 12 weeks later (somewhere in October). 18-24yos likely get to go ahead of 25-39yos.
I'm, like, dying of boredom over here. The price of only using the fancy vaccines and buying just enough of them so that when there's a slight delay in production, it delays your country's entire vaccine schedule! My lipsticks are expiring slowly in a drawer. :lol
There are places around the globe that are offering vaccination vacations. Travel to a country and get the shot along with checking out the sites of that country.
Just a thought...............
My home country is one of them, but I might have problems getting my permanent residence permit next year if I exceed something like six months away in the last three years, and last year I spent more than five months stuck back home due to COVID. What goes around comes around lol :police:
The UK has delayed it's final dropping of major restrictions by four weeks. It was going to be next Monday, now it'll be 19 July. Mainly due to the Delta variant being so much more transmissable and becoming widespread across the UK, the intention is to give more time to get all adults at least their first jab, and to get millions more people fully vaccinated.
I felt gutted reading about that. It really is a minor setback and it's nice your government is acting proactively, but it seemed so nice that you would go back to full normal so soon and we were all rooting for you.
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California drops a ton of restrictions today. Unfortunately both my jobs still require masking up.
I think those who serve food is the last in line to drop the masks. Which sucks for you.
According to state guidelines it's open pending on vaccination status, unless the individual businesses dictate otherwise
Right but, just a guess, most restaurants will hold off longer than most businesses. Just a hunch.
I haven't heard of one that isn't. Both my jobs are still requiring them, one is an ultra progressive corporation, the other is whole foods, so it's fair to say I'll be masked at work for the foreseeable future.
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That makes senes since the hesitancy is low. Good on the people out there to get the jab and being informed. I spoke to my friend who is not vaccinated (and refuses to) if he was aware of the Delta variant and he was not. People here in the US are just ignorant to the reality. He previously had told me "I'm 35 and healthy so no need" which is a big :facepalm: to me.
No shit. The UK is seeing virtually no cases of the original strain. Some people are so blissfully ignorant... I just hope it doesn't cost them their health (or worse).
I just saw an article this morning that stated Canada just passed the UK in terms of % of population with at least 1 dose - 65%. Hesitancy thankfully isn't a problem; supply *was*, which is why we're so slow on the 2nd doses. Now our main problem will be distribution and execution. It's still going to take at least 2-3 months to get that same population their 2nd dose. Good news is, my pharmacy is getting AZ supply next week or two, and since mrs.jingle and I were vax'd on the first or 2nd day they had supply initially, we should have our 2nd jab within the next two weeks. jingle.mom got her 2nd shot on Friday.
Case numbers are WAY down in Ontario (less than 300 @ 2.3% test positivity), so that's also a good sign we're trending in the right way. Down over 90% across the country in the last 60 days, under 1000 new daily cases nationally. Just have to keep an eye on that Delta variant. That fucker can/will spread like a Californian wildfire.
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That fucker can/will spread like a Californian wildfire.
I'm a little bit shocked that this is our third noteworthy mutation and people are still laughing it off and saying "pfft how convenient there's a mutation, yeah I bet this one is more dangerous too".
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Well the good thing is Delta variant isn't going to be an issue for the vaccinated folks. So I'm not worried at all about it and sometimes I question if the media fear mongering is in effect when they say its more contagious and more dangerous. I'm just not so sure how they know that. It may be true. They've said that basically with every variant and it really hasn't been the case. Here in NJ we are at 1% positivity on tests. It's basically non existent at the moment.
Also, be careful when you read "cases doubled since yesterday" as lots of states have stopped regularly reporting so you do get weekly data dumps that may look like a spike but when you average it out, it really isn't anything of concern.
I'm just super happy that it seems locally we are well on our way for the pandemic to be over. For those non vaccinated, good luck. You may have natural immunity, you may not, but it certainly has and continues to look like you either get covid or you get vaccinated (or both). No one in this world is going to escape it completely IMO.
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The UK has delayed it's final dropping of major restrictions by four weeks. It was going to be next Monday, now it'll be 19 July. Mainly due to the Delta variant being so much more transmissable and becoming widespread across the UK, the intention is to give more time to get all adults at least their first jab, and to get millions more people fully vaccinated.
I felt gutted reading about that. It really is a minor setback and it's nice your government is acting proactively, but it seemed so nice that you would go back to full normal so soon and we were all rooting for you.
Yeah it's a bit sucky, but it does also make sense really. The UK hasn't handled many aspects of the pandemic well at all, but vaccines is something we have thankfully done well - getting in quickly to fund and purchase vaccines, roll them out successfully, overcome hesitancy, and made some good judgement calls on how to roll them out and who to prioritise. Hopefully these four weeks will be it. If so, I think it will be a good omen for the rest of the world as other countries catch up with the vaccine rollout.
That makes senes since the hesitancy is low. Good on the people out there to get the jab and being informed. I spoke to my friend who is not vaccinated (and refuses to) if he was aware of the Delta variant and he was not. People here in the US are just ignorant to the reality. He previously had told me "I'm 35 and healthy so no need" which is a big :facepalm: to me.
No shit. The UK is seeing virtually no cases of the original strain. Some people are so blissfully ignorant... I just hope it doesn't cost them their health (or worse).
Yeah, even the Alpha strain (the one that was first identified in Kent, UK and was dominant for most of the second wave here because it was so much more transmissable) is now only a fraction of sequenced cases, as the Delta one is even more transmissable than that.
I just saw an article this morning that stated Canada just passed the UK in terms of % of population with at least 1 dose - 65%. Hesitancy thankfully isn't a problem; supply *was*, which is why we're so slow on the 2nd doses. Now our main problem will be distribution and execution. It's still going to take at least 2-3 months to get that same population their 2nd dose. Good news is, my pharmacy is getting AZ supply next week or two, and since mrs.jingle and I were vax'd on the first or 2nd day they had supply initially, we should have our 2nd jab within the next two weeks. jingle.mom got her 2nd shot on Friday.
It's very interesting seeing Canada's approach to this. The UK prioritised maximising first doses until the vulnerable/priority groups had all had them, which was about 45% of the population, before then slowing down first jabs to prioritise second jabs - especially because the second jab has a huge impact on the transmissability of the virus (even more so with Delta than previous strains). Canada seems to have only just started focusing on second doses having given first jabs to around 60% of the population. If the supply has been there to do it and maintain 12 weeks between doses then I guess fine, but that does come with risks too.
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Well the good thing is Delta variant isn't going to be an issue for the vaccinated folks. So I'm not worried at all about it and sometimes I question if the media fear mongering is in effect when they say its more contagious and more dangerous. I'm just not so sure how they know that. It may be true. They've said that basically with every variant and it really hasn't been the case. Here in NJ we are at 1% positivity on tests. It's basically non existent at the moment.
Actually, it has been the case that previous variants have been more transmissable/contagious/whatever. Alpha was quite a lot more so and became dominant in the UK. Beta and Gamma I think were more so than the original strain as well, but perhaps not as much. And Delta very much more so than any of them.
But that's about how the virus spreads. For countries with high vaccine rollout and availability, arguably the more important thing is whether the strains are any more dangerous particularly to vaccinated people. And the evidence so far is that the vaccine is still extremely effective at preventing serious illness.
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It's not over till it's over.... and that means globally.
As long as there is spread there is a risk of new variants that the vaccines will not work against and that can be even easier to spread and give worse symptoms.
There is a study from Scotland saying that the Delta variant doubles risk of hospitalisation for the unvacinated.
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/delta-variant-doubles-risk-covid-hospitalisation-scottish-study-2021-06-14/
Vaccines are also not as effective against it. Pfizer has been tested to 79 % efficency compared to 93 % for the original strain.
Looking forward to getting my second Pfizer shot on the 22nd and thinking there will be a third sooner rather than later.
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It's not over till it's over.... and that means globally.
As long as there is spread there is a risk of new variants that the vaccines will not work against and that can be even easier to spread and give worse symptoms.
There is a study from Scotland saying that the Delta variant doubles risk of hospitalisation for the unvacinated.
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/delta-variant-doubles-risk-covid-hospitalisation-scottish-study-2021-06-14/
Vaccines are also not as effective against it. Pfizer has been tested to 79 % efficency compared to 93 % for the original strain.
Looking forward to getting my second Pfizer shot on the 22nd and thinking there will be a third sooner rather than later.
Quoted for truth.
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Vaccines are also not as effective against it. Pfizer has been tested to 79 % efficency compared to 93 % for the original strain.
That's efficacy at preventing any symptomatic infection. It's effectiveness at preventing hospitalisation (i.e. serious illness) is more than 90%.
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79% is still impressive for a virus vaccine. For comparison, 50% is considered good efficiency rate for a flu vaccine from what I've understood.
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Well the good thing is Delta variant isn't going to be an issue for the vaccinated folks. So I'm not worried at all about it and sometimes I question if the media fear mongering is in effect when they say its more contagious and more dangerous. I'm just not so sure how they know that. It may be true. They've said that basically with every variant and it really hasn't been the case. Here in NJ we are at 1% positivity on tests. It's basically non existent at the moment.
I think this is absolutely the case (the fear mongering). You had a story that dominated the news - local, regional, cable - for the better part of 18 months and what, we're going to have story after story about nothing? About how it's over? And the terminology is very important. If I smoke one cigarette in a year, that's more dangerous than smoking no cigarettes, and if I double it to 2 cigarettes that is even more dangerous... but we're talking about 2 cigarettes in a year. That's hardly Eddie Van Halen/Denis Leary territory.
Also, be careful when you read "cases doubled since yesterday" as lots of states have stopped regularly reporting so you do get weekly data dumps that may look like a spike but when you average it out, it really isn't anything of concern.
My state has stopped the daily reporting, AND has closed the mass vaccination centers. You can still get vaccines if you want them, but the commandeering of high schools (which is what happened in my town) and such is apparently over.
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My state has stopped the daily reporting, AND has closed the mass vaccination centers. You can still get vaccines if you want them, but the commandeering of high schools (which is what happened in my town) and such is apparently over.
That's not surprising, the mass vaccination centers have played their important role and are no longer needed. Shots are basically all local at this point if you want them. My pediatrician friend said his office is soon going to have their own supply to administer if children want them (and he is only recommending it if the child has other health issues).
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Yep, the mass vaccination centers here in NC are pretty much gone, as they have served their purpose.
We now have medical teams basically going door-to-door in low-income neighborhoods, since that is where the bulk of the remaining unvaccinated people live.
We also instituted a lottery similar to Ohio's. Everyone 18 and older who are already vaccinated gets entered once. Anyone getting vaccinated from this point forward will get entered twice (incentive to get vaccinated). There will be 4 separate draw dates, with each winner receiving $1 million. Separately, there will also be separate drawings for the 12-17 age group, and they will receive $125,000 towards college.
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California drops a ton of restrictions today. Unfortunately both my jobs still require masking up.
I think those who serve food is the last in line to drop the masks. Which sucks for you.
According to state guidelines it's open pending on vaccination status, unless the individual businesses dictate otherwise
Well, it's that AND the fact that, even though the Dept. of Health lifted the mask mandate in general, Cal. OSHA's mask mandate for all employees in the workplace does not lift until tomorrow. So employees at work are still technically required to wear them.
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Yep, the mass vaccination centers here in NC are pretty much gone, as they have served their purpose.
We now have medical teams basically going door-to-door in low-income neighborhoods, since that is where the bulk of the remaining unvaccinated people live.
We also instituted a lottery similar to Ohio's. Everyone 18 and older who are already vaccinated gets entered once. Anyone getting vaccinated from this point forward will get entered twice (incentive to get vaccinated). There will be 4 separate draw dates, with each winner receiving $1 million. Separately, there will also be separate drawings for the 12-17 age group, and they will receive $125,000 towards college.
That's actually pretty smart - don't penalize the people that already vax'd while rewarding those that have held out ... but giving an incentive to those hesitating. Good call on the 12-17 age group too!
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California drops a ton of restrictions today. Unfortunately both my jobs still require masking up.
I think those who serve food is the last in line to drop the masks. Which sucks for you.
According to state guidelines it's open pending on vaccination status, unless the individual businesses dictate otherwise
Well, it's that AND the fact that, even though the Dept. of Health lifted the mask mandate in general, Cal. OSHA's mask mandate for all employees in the workplace does not lift until tomorrow. So employees at work are still technically required to wear them.
Didn't know that one. My brothers country club tossed them yesterday, haven't heard what my other bro at Scott's did. I still think both my workplaces will require them indefinitely
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At long last, I'm getting my first shot on 24th of this month! I'm getting Moderna if I'm not mistaken.
Can't wait! :metal
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I'm getting mine on the 27th and the second on August 1st!
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With luck, I should have my first dose on Monday.
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For polarbear, Elite, and XJ, good luck (not with the shot itself, but getting it)! It was a big relief for me when I finally got the second one.
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I feel like I'm getting it from both ends. On one hand, I have in-laws that have been anti-mask and anti-vaxx all along. And they've been quite loud and disrespectful about it, telling people who comply or have their kids comply that they are committing child abuse, telling people who get the shot that they support abortion, etc.
On the other hand, now that I'm vaccinated, I've been getting back to normal life as much as I can, and I'm feeling a little bit of shade from people on the other side. Like people telling me "I don't know how you could go out to a restaurant with friends when your kid isn't vaccinated". For starters, whether my kid gets vaccinated at all is a question for his pediatrician. And believe it or not, it doesn't seem to be a sure thing that it will happen at all.
It was a rough transition getting used to life under covid and I guess now everyone has to get used to some sense of normalcy, people will process that differently and there is enough pent-up anxiety to spew out in any direction.
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I don't pay any attention to it. Cram is right in this thread - the people that want to be vaccinated have already been, and those that aren't yet, well, they probably won't anyways. So you just have to live how you are comfortable and forget everyone else's opinions.
My kids are in summer camps, wear masks when they're supposed to and take them off when they can (outdoors). It is what it is. We've taken them to the mall, restaurants, and will be going to Florida very soon. I can't keep them at home for another year - the youngest needs social development and preschool, which he didn't get last year when they cancelled his pre-school classes outright. They also need to just be kids and play at playgrounds or go on vacations.
I'm living my life with the guess that 2 of every 3 people I encounter are likely vaccinated. I live in a very red-county, so maybe that isn't true. But it makes me feel better being around others and learning to try and trust people again...and also not judge others, like I have been over the last year. It's nice to feel that life is returning to normal, and that also means encountering some sick people in public, sadly. We go out with head colds and other illnesses - it is what it is.
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I don't pay any attention to it. Cram is right in this thread - the people that want to be vaccinated have already been, and those that aren't yet, well, they probably won't anyways. So you just have to live how you are comfortable and forget everyone else's opinions.
My kids are in summer camps, wear masks when they're supposed to and take them off when they can (outdoors). It is what it is. We've taken them to the mall, restaurants, and will be going to Florida very soon. I can't keep them at home for another year - the youngest needs social development and preschool, which he didn't get last year when they cancelled his pre-school classes outright. They also need to just be kids and play at playgrounds or go on vacations.
I'm living my life with the guess that 2 of every 3 people I encounter are likely vaccinated. I live in a very red-county, so maybe that isn't true. But it makes me feel better being around others and learning to try and trust people again...and also not judge others, like I have been over the last year. It's nice to feel that life is returning to normal, and that also means encountering some sick people in public, sadly. We go out with head colds and other illnesses - it is what it is.
Precisely being concerned about yourself.
What they're doing is being over-considerate to where it becomes invasive.
And it's not going back to normal. It's going back to living life again. And being able to do what we please again. Society and Culture dictate what is Normal, and one cultures Normal is vastly different in meaning than Western Civilization and it's Culture.
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I feel like I'm getting it from both ends. On one hand, I have in-laws that have been anti-mask and anti-vaxx all along. And they've been quite loud and disrespectful about it, telling people who comply or have their kids comply that they are committing child abuse, telling people who get the shot that they support abortion, etc.
On the other hand, now that I'm vaccinated, I've been getting back to normal life as much as I can, and I'm feeling a little bit of shade from people on the other side. Like people telling me "I don't know how you could go out to a restaurant with friends when your kid isn't vaccinated". For starters, whether my kid gets vaccinated at all is a question for his pediatrician. And believe it or not, it doesn't seem to be a sure thing that it will happen at all.
It was a rough transition getting used to life under covid and I guess now everyone has to get used to some sense of normalcy, people will process that differently and there is enough pent-up anxiety to spew out in any direction.
I'm experiencing that difficulty in getting back into the groove too. The rules are changing again, and that's always a time for turmoil. I will only note that I've been seeing (and experiencing) the "shade" from both sides all along; it's not really new. It just strikes me that as soon as someone sees something that doesn't jive with their world view, there's this feeling of entitlement that they can or should speak up (which needless to say, I'm not really down with). Up here, it's actually a little stronger on the bullying side. Then again, I live in a pretty blue state, so it's sort of par for the course.
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Whole Foods lifted masking for vaccinated employees. Feels fucking weird to be mask less when 90 % of the customers are still masked, but fuck it, it's been long enough.
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Whole Foods lifted masking for vaccinated employees. Feels fucking weird to be mask less when 90 % of the customers are still masked, but fuck it, it's been long enough.
It feels normal real fast.
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That makes senes since the hesitancy is low. Good on the people out there to get the jab and being informed. I spoke to my friend who is not vaccinated (and refuses to) if he was aware of the Delta variant and he was not. People here in the US are just ignorant to the reality. He previously had told me "I'm 35 and healthy so no need" which is a big :facepalm: to me.
No shit. The UK is seeing virtually no cases of the original strain. Some people are so blissfully ignorant... I just hope it doesn't cost them their health (or worse).
I just saw an article this morning that stated Canada just passed the UK in terms of % of population with at least 1 dose - 65%. Hesitancy thankfully isn't a problem; supply *was*, which is why we're so slow on the 2nd doses. Now our main problem will be distribution and execution. It's still going to take at least 2-3 months to get that same population their 2nd dose. Good news is, my pharmacy is getting AZ supply next week or two, and since mrs.jingle and I were vax'd on the first or 2nd day they had supply initially, we should have our 2nd jab within the next two weeks. jingle.mom got her 2nd shot on Friday.
Case numbers are WAY down in Ontario (less than 300 @ 2.3% test positivity), so that's also a good sign we're trending in the right way. Down over 90% across the country in the last 60 days, under 1000 new daily cases nationally. Just have to keep an eye on that Delta variant. That fucker can/will spread like a Californian wildfire.
my original booking for Pfizer dose #2 was august 21st but today I was able to move it forward to july 22nd, things are progressing.
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Whole Foods lifted masking for vaccinated employees. Feels fucking weird to be mask less when 90 % of the customers are still masked, but fuck it, it's been long enough.
It feels normal real fast.
Yup, took all of 15 minutes for the weird feeling to wear off lol
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Worst case for me / mrs.jingle, we just booked a Pfizer/Moderna 2nd dose for Thursday through the Provincial booking system. It's possible our local pharmacy (where we got our 1st dose of AZ) might get an AZ batch before then, but one way or another, we'll be double dosed by this time next week.
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Worst case for me / mrs.jingle, we just booked a Pfizer/Moderna 2nd dose for Thursday through the Provincial booking system. It's possible our local pharmacy (where we got our 1st dose of AZ) might get an AZ batch before then, but one way or another, we'll be double dosed by this time next week.
Is it okay to mix doses?
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Is it okay to mix doses?
Yeah, it's safe. There are folks over here who've had AZ as their first dose, and will have Pfizer or Moderna for their second because AZ has since been shelved by most EU countries.
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Worst case for me / mrs.jingle, we just booked a Pfizer/Moderna 2nd dose for Thursday through the Provincial booking system. It's possible our local pharmacy (where we got our 1st dose of AZ) might get an AZ batch before then, but one way or another, we'll be double dosed by this time next week.
Is it okay to mix doses?
I heard Fauci say it was fine for Moderna/Pfizer but I never heard about AZ being mixed with either. My understanding is AZ is an adeno virus and Moderna/Pfizer is mRNA so I'm kind of surprised you could mix those two.
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Yeah..that doesn't seem right.
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Well I just read this
https://www.yahoo.com/news/covid19-vaccine-astrazeneca-pfizer-moderna-second-shot-naci-230829766.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/covid19-vaccine-astrazeneca-pfizer-moderna-second-shot-naci-230829766.html)
"An mRNA vaccine is now preferred as the second dose for individuals who received a first dose of the AstraZeneca/COVISHIELD vaccine, based on emerging evidence of a potentially better immune response from this mixed vaccine schedule and to mitigate the potential risk of VITT [vaccine-induced immune thrombotic thrombocytopenia] associated with viral vector vaccines," the recommendation from NACI reads.
So I guess it is legit.
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No peer reviewed studies, and I'm sure AZ (the company) is fucking livid over this, but the whole VITT blood-clot issue has made guidance on AZ shots an absolute cluster fuck - at least here in Canada.
The reality is, we don't even know what brands of vaccines we receive for other virus' / diseases. It's only because of the race to market (and the sheer number of companies in the race) that we know the brand name of these. I mean, can anyone name me the brand of vaccine or booster you got for the flu? Or MMR? Or who the maker of Shingrix is?
I was a little skeptical at first, but the field studies are showing that it's at least as good as 2-shots of the same vaccine, and some show it's better - limited formal study though.
Honestly, my gut says it's more likely because of some kind of deal that Pfizer and Moderna have cut with the Cdn government.
BTW, NACI is a fucking joke. Their "guidance" changes pretty much every week. Less than a month ago, their guidance on AZ was that it's was safe and effective (because there was AZ-hesitation back in April/May up here).
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In the UK, AstraZeneca is still the main vaccine for over 40s as the blood clot risk seems to mainly be among younger people.
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What's the % of those with blood clots Rich?
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What's the % of those with blood clots Rich?
Oh it's really, really tiny still. Like, a fraction of a %.
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I'm putting my vaccine to the test in a trial by fire...family vacation to Panama City Beach, FL. I can count on one hand the number of people I have seen wearing a mask in Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama and Florida. :lol
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What's the % of those with blood clots Rich?
Oh it's really, really tiny still. Like, a fraction of a %.
That sounds very familiar to the Johnson & Johnson issue here.
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I see some masks here locally, but they are definitely on the way out for most people. I have not been into any businesses in the last few days that are requiring them for customers, but I have been bringing mine just in case.
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I am back to working in the city and I'm finding that black people are still wearing their masks.
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Some observations on the restrictions being lifted around my area. As you all know I picked up a 2nd job at Whole Foods, and it's been a trip not only to watch what has been happening there, but also what happens inside my head, my perception of people and how I have to force changes in how I think of them. I'd say in the three days we've been open, the percentage of customers and employees dropping the mask is slowly increasing. I definitely know of some employees who are full of shit about their vax status, and are just saying fuck it besides. I know of some people who are being toally cautious, are totally vaxxed, and are still wearing their mask, and every bit in between. I personally have dropped it whenever allowable.
So in my head, I'm slowly dropping that instant judgement I've been having about people based on their mask status. Earlier we'd see someone maskless and we'd immediately jump to all sorts of conclusions about them, mostly negative. We wait for the aggression, the defensiveness, and brace for it. Now I go to those same conclusions, and remind myself that they can fit into any of the above categories, the current situation is completely taking away that aspect of the last year, and I love it. Being in that state of defensiveness is fucking exhausting man. Mask or no mask, I could give fuck all about how customers wanna do it, and it feels great.
Also, it's really, really nice to finally smile at a stranger, and get a smile back. I missed that more than I could imagine.
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Oslo dropped obligatory masks in shops (idk if they were a thing during most of the pandemic in most other places in Norway?), but some stores have notes on the door kindly asking the customers to wear a mask if they can't maintain one meter distance. Let's see how quickly people drop them. It would be nice to feel the good vibes again. The other day I got suddenly sick of it in the phone repair shop, having to project my voice in my third language over my thick cloth mask and squint and angle my face funny when the guy is showing me something on the phone because my glasses have to be on a mask-friendly angle now.
We do everything without masks in kindergartens and I have already picked up the kids' bugs from every place I worked at, so I'm already used to feeling exposed and getting sick again, but I imagine if you spent all of last year masked everywhere, it's quite an adjustment.
Side note, trying to build up immunity again will not be pretty for most of us :corn I always only ever get sick enough to sneeze and cough, but I can stand and do stuff just fine. I got sick twice since March and it was a full fever, couldn't sleep, have to preserve my energy a week into feeling sick still kind of affair.
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Also, it's really, really nice to finally smile at a stranger, and get a smile back. I missed that more than I could imagine.
Word up. Could not agree with this any more than I already do.
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It's been great to see sporting events with live humans in the stands too.
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This happened last night, completely sold out Madison Square Garden. Had to show proof of vaccination to get in. It was amazing.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4YODVDXMAUblUr?format=jpg&name=medium)
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Not the hugest Foo Fighters fan, but that's a beautiful sight.
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Not the hugest Foo Fighters fan, but that's a beautiful sight.
Me neither, they were good and all but I'm not a crazy fan. I just really wanted to be there. It was advertised as the return of Rock n Roll. It was surreal.
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That's fantastic!
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The Foos put on a killer show. So energetic live.
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I love David Grohl and think he's an amazing musician and all around human, but I could never get into the Foo Fighters. I'd see them live in a heartbeat shows. Their shows must be wild.
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Also, it's really, really nice to finally smile at a stranger, and get a smile back. I missed that more than I could imagine.
Word up. Could not agree with this any more than I already do.
Have mask mandates in the US included outdoors as well as indoors?
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Also, it's really, really nice to finally smile at a stranger, and get a smile back. I missed that more than I could imagine.
Word up. Could not agree with this any more than I already do.
Have mask mandates in the US included outdoors as well as indoors?
It varies by region. When I went to Province Town last September, they had mask mandate everywhere in town.
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Also, it's really, really nice to finally smile at a stranger, and get a smile back. I missed that more than I could imagine.
Word up. Could not agree with this any more than I already do.
Have mask mandates in the US included outdoors as well as indoors?
Depends on your local governance, but most places from my understanding only required masks outdoords when you couldn't social distance.
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Also, it's really, really nice to finally smile at a stranger, and get a smile back. I missed that more than I could imagine.
Word up. Could not agree with this any more than I already do.
Have mask mandates in the US included outdoors as well as indoors?
In CA it did. In San Francisco, at the height of it, it was mask up if you were within 30 feet of someone else, no matter what.
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The Foos put on a killer show. So energetic live.
For sure.
I saw them twice and the experiences were quite different.
The first was on the tour for Echoes, Silence, Patience & Grace, and it was great. Great set list, the volume was perfect, and the atmosphere was money.
The second was on the tour for Wasting Light. I often joke that when I am deaf someday due to loud music, I am throwing most of the blame at four concerts, and this is one of them (Metallica, Judas Priest and DT in KC in '14 being the others). Between the ear-splitting volume and their need that tour to add a 3-4 minute jam at the end of seemingly every song, most of which sounded like the same jam repeated over and over, made that concert unbearable. That was one of the rare concerts where I was thrilled when it was over (Make it stop!!).
But that first time seeing them was great! :metal :metal
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Also, it's really, really nice to finally smile at a stranger, and get a smile back. I missed that more than I could imagine.
Word up. Could not agree with this any more than I already do.
Have mask mandates in the US included outdoors as well as indoors?
In CA it did. In San Francisco, at the height of it, it was mask up if you were within 30 feet of someone else, no matter what.
Wow, yeah that must be pretty weird. It's been indoor only in the UK and so it won't be such a major change when we stop wearing masks, I imagine.
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First Jab today!
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No peer reviewed studies, and I'm sure AZ (the company) is fucking livid over this, but the whole VITT blood-clot issue has made guidance on AZ shots an absolute cluster fuck - at least here in Canada.
The reality is, we don't even know what brands of vaccines we receive for other virus' / diseases. It's only because of the race to market (and the sheer number of companies in the race) that we know the brand name of these. I mean, can anyone name me the brand of vaccine or booster you got for the flu? Or MMR? Or who the maker of Shingrix is?
I was a little skeptical at first, but the field studies are showing that it's at least as good as 2-shots of the same vaccine, and some show it's better - limited formal study though.
Honestly, my gut says it's more likely because of some kind of deal that Pfizer and Moderna have cut with the Cdn government.
BTW, NACI is a fucking joke. Their "guidance" changes pretty much every week. Less than a month ago, their guidance on AZ was that it's was safe and effective (because there was AZ-hesitation back in April/May up here).
Yeah, so frustrating. I got my second dose of AZ 2 weeks ago, then NACI comes out with the new recommendation of stopping AZ for the second dose and giving an MRNA dose instead. Now I feel inadequate. :P Here in BC they didn't follow the guidelines, but the demand for AZ dropped hugely due to the NACI guidelines.
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No peer reviewed studies, and I'm sure AZ (the company) is fucking livid over this, but the whole VITT blood-clot issue has made guidance on AZ shots an absolute cluster fuck - at least here in Canada.
The reality is, we don't even know what brands of vaccines we receive for other virus' / diseases. It's only because of the race to market (and the sheer number of companies in the race) that we know the brand name of these. I mean, can anyone name me the brand of vaccine or booster you got for the flu? Or MMR? Or who the maker of Shingrix is?
I was a little skeptical at first, but the field studies are showing that it's at least as good as 2-shots of the same vaccine, and some show it's better - limited formal study though.
Honestly, my gut says it's more likely because of some kind of deal that Pfizer and Moderna have cut with the Cdn government.
BTW, NACI is a fucking joke. Their "guidance" changes pretty much every week. Less than a month ago, their guidance on AZ was that it's was safe and effective (because there was AZ-hesitation back in April/May up here).
Yeah, so frustrating. I got my second dose of AZ 2 weeks ago, then NACI comes out with the new recommendation of stopping AZ for the second dose and giving an MRNA dose instead. Now I feel inadequate. :P Here in BC they didn't follow the guidelines, but the demand for AZ dropped hugely due to the NACI guidelines.
Nothing to feel inadequate about, AZ is as effective as the other vaccines based on the evidence so far so you're fully protected like every other double-jabbed person. The change in guidance is only because of the slightly higher blood clot risk, but that evidently didn't affect you, so you're good.
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The second dose of Pfizer is in the arm.....
Feel good..... and now I have 5G..... love it
215 Mbit/s right after the shot..... wonder about the speed in 2 weeks when I'm fully baked ;)
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No peer reviewed studies, and I'm sure AZ (the company) is fucking livid over this, but the whole VITT blood-clot issue has made guidance on AZ shots an absolute cluster fuck - at least here in Canada.
The reality is, we don't even know what brands of vaccines we receive for other virus' / diseases. It's only because of the race to market (and the sheer number of companies in the race) that we know the brand name of these. I mean, can anyone name me the brand of vaccine or booster you got for the flu? Or MMR? Or who the maker of Shingrix is?
I was a little skeptical at first, but the field studies are showing that it's at least as good as 2-shots of the same vaccine, and some show it's better - limited formal study though.
Honestly, my gut says it's more likely because of some kind of deal that Pfizer and Moderna have cut with the Cdn government.
BTW, NACI is a fucking joke. Their "guidance" changes pretty much every week. Less than a month ago, their guidance on AZ was that it's was safe and effective (because there was AZ-hesitation back in April/May up here).
Yeah, so frustrating. I got my second dose of AZ 2 weeks ago, then NACI comes out with the new recommendation of stopping AZ for the second dose and giving an MRNA dose instead. Now I feel inadequate. :P Here in BC they didn't follow the guidelines, but the demand for AZ dropped hugely due to the NACI guidelines.
Nothing to feel inadequate about, AZ is as effective as the other vaccines based on the evidence so far so you're fully protected like every other double-jabbed person. The change in guidance is only because of the slightly higher blood clot risk, but that evidently didn't affect you, so you're good.
Gotta disagree. I think their changing guidance is coming from political pressure. No data/information has changed about the VITT risk in the last number of weeks, so why is their guidance flopping back and forth? Likely answer is political pressure stemming from A) AZ supply shortage, and B) the reason for the AZ supply shortage (see my point above).
The initial agreements we had were to "secure access" to 20M doses of AZ, so there *shouldn't* have been a supply issue. Obviously, things change, and since our source was to be coming largely from India, I think the outbreak there also played a role in the shift of "preference" to Pfizer/Moderna.
Whatever ... I'm getting my 2nd dose on Thursday, and I'm not stuffed about the mixing of brands.
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Wonder what's going on in MA?
https://www.bostonherald.com/2021/06/16/nearly-4000-fully-vaccinated-people-in-massachusetts-have-tested-positive-for-coronavirus/
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Wonder what's going on in MA?
https://www.bostonherald.com/2021/06/16/nearly-4000-fully-vaccinated-people-in-massachusetts-have-tested-positive-for-coronavirus/
Well, you can still get infected but you should hopefully get little or no symptoms.
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0.1% is a much smaller percentage than the efficacies would suggest in any case. Some people still testing positive is to be expected.
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No peer reviewed studies, and I'm sure AZ (the company) is fucking livid over this, but the whole VITT blood-clot issue has made guidance on AZ shots an absolute cluster fuck - at least here in Canada.
The reality is, we don't even know what brands of vaccines we receive for other virus' / diseases. It's only because of the race to market (and the sheer number of companies in the race) that we know the brand name of these. I mean, can anyone name me the brand of vaccine or booster you got for the flu? Or MMR? Or who the maker of Shingrix is?
I was a little skeptical at first, but the field studies are showing that it's at least as good as 2-shots of the same vaccine, and some show it's better - limited formal study though.
Honestly, my gut says it's more likely because of some kind of deal that Pfizer and Moderna have cut with the Cdn government.
BTW, NACI is a fucking joke. Their "guidance" changes pretty much every week. Less than a month ago, their guidance on AZ was that it's was safe and effective (because there was AZ-hesitation back in April/May up here).
Yeah, so frustrating. I got my second dose of AZ 2 weeks ago, then NACI comes out with the new recommendation of stopping AZ for the second dose and giving an MRNA dose instead. Now I feel inadequate. :P Here in BC they didn't follow the guidelines, but the demand for AZ dropped hugely due to the NACI guidelines.
Nothing to feel inadequate about, AZ is as effective as the other vaccines based on the evidence so far so you're fully protected like every other double-jabbed person. The change in guidance is only because of the slightly higher blood clot risk, but that evidently didn't affect you, so you're good.
Gotta disagree. I think their changing guidance is coming from political pressure. No data/information has changed about the VITT risk in the last number of weeks, so why is their guidance flopping back and forth? Likely answer is political pressure stemming from A) AZ supply shortage, and B) the reason for the AZ supply shortage (see my point above).
The initial agreements we had were to "secure access" to 20M doses of AZ, so there *shouldn't* have been a supply issue. Obviously, things change, and since our source was to be coming largely from India, I think the outbreak there also played a role in the shift of "preference" to Pfizer/Moderna.
Whatever ... I'm getting my 2nd dose on Thursday, and I'm not stuffed about the mixing of brands.
I don't think we disagree at all, I agree with you about the politics, although that still does result from the blood clot issue (either in itself, or as an excuse due to supply issues). My main point was that it's nothing to do with the effectiveness of the vaccine, which is just as good as the others.
Wonder what's going on in MA?
https://www.bostonherald.com/2021/06/16/nearly-4000-fully-vaccinated-people-in-massachusetts-have-tested-positive-for-coronavirus/
Well, you can still get infected but you should hopefully get little or no symptoms.
Exactly. You're also less likely to get infected, and less likely to pass it on if you do.
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Wonder what's going on in MA?
https://www.bostonherald.com/2021/06/16/nearly-4000-fully-vaccinated-people-in-massachusetts-have-tested-positive-for-coronavirus/
It doesn't stop one from catching Covid. It only helps in preventing severe symptoms associated with Covid.
It's to prevent and ease people from overwhelming the hospitals and to continue living their lives without feeling sick. Asymptomatic cases are what we all have with the common cold, but some people can still die even from catching a common cold, if their illness is that severe, those people are usually kept in isolation.
People who are immunocompromised are at a greater risk for breakthrough cases.
This vaccine is not a cure. There are no cures. Only remedies and all drugs, vaccines, herbal treatments are remedies to ease the pain and the severity of the illness.
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My main point was that it's nothing to do with the effectiveness of the vaccine, which is just as good as the others.
Well then yes ... we agree!
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I don't what to call this. I am so worn down by people who think this way.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/her-mother-died-of-covid-but-that-wont-convince-her-to-get-vaccinated?source=articles&via=rss
The important parts of the article:
Hart’s mom, 58-year-old Mary Knight, passed away last week from complications related to COVID-19
A second unvaccinated member of the IT department, 53-year-old systems analyst Alphonso Cox, also died last week after coming down with COVID-19. Three others in the office who were unvaccinated and contracted the virus were ill enough to be hospitalized, but survived.
None of their vaccinated coworkers were affected at all
Hart: "Stress killed her, not COVID. A healthy body and immune system [do] not need the vaccine.” :facepalm:
Hart: “No one in my family will be getting the vaccine,”
I know it is fruitless to get upset over this. These people won't change and they may get sick and possibly die as well. Saw a story that something like 23% of infected people are entering long-haul status, even when they showed no symptoms, is beyond scary to me.
Just venting. Have had a bad week at work and am fried and burned out. Stories like this just set me off, moreso now that I am irritated.
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Survival of the fittest goes beyond physical health, having a brain plays a role too.
As much as I say a lot of the news headlines are misleading and fear mongering, there is definitely some truth to what's going on right now regarding the delta variant. If you've successfully escaped a covid infection this long, your time may be running out.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, my belief is everyone on this planet is either going to get covid or get vaccinated. No one is going to be able to escape contact with the virus. So you can take the risk and see what happens when you get an infection or play it safe and get the vaccine. One is a smarter decision with less risk than the other. I'm at the point where I don't feel too bad for people who make the wrong decision here, but it's very obvious these deaths are very avoidable at this point in the US and there's no one to blame besides themselves.
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Survival of the fittest goes beyond physical health, having a brain plays a role too.
As much as I say a lot of the news headlines are misleading and fear mongering, there is definitely some truth to what's going on right now regarding the delta variant. If you've successfully escaped a covid infection this long, your time may be running out.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, my belief is everyone on this planet is either going to get covid or get vaccinated. No one is going to be able to escape contact with the virus. So you can take the risk and see what happens when you get an infection or play it safe and get the vaccine. One is a smarter decision with less risk than the other. I'm at the point where I don't feel too bad for people who make the wrong decision here, but it's very obvious these deaths are very avoidable at this point in the US and there's no one to blame besides themselves.
Well said. If I wasn't so fried I might have come up with something along those lines. Right now, I am ranting old man. I'm TAC telling people to get off my lawn.
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You know what's fascinating...Is how different cultures and societies perceive illnesses and disease. And how they treat those illness and disease and How they consider why these people are sick with that illness. And other terms for a sickness only known by that society and culture.
Mostly, it's all herbal and mental remedies to help the Ill. It wasn't until the colonists came and assimilated many cultures where they began to think like them about illness, disease, remedies, and healing.
So you can't expect people to think like you do about illness and disease. The one way we all know about pharmaceuticals and drug companies, are a part of the one mindset I talk about. It's only one mindset and they're convincing people it's the only way.
When in fact, they depleted and wiped away all of what these other Societies and cultures utilized for their health, these were what kept them healthy and how they had a good immune system.
I am taking a class and I am loving it. It's an Anthropology class.
The further I go within this class. The more I learn, I was already doing this.
And unhealthy immune systems (which a healthy immune system is necessary to fight off diseases and illnesses), were caused by not just bad foods and non-exercize, but conditions of the environment, and social structures that cause poverty, as poverty leads to unhealthy immune systems because they can't afford these things that make them have better immune systems. Like access to nutritious foods.
And now they want to come in and claim savior with this vaccine? GTFOH
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Finnish football fans returned by bus from St. Petersburg, Russia after Finland was eliminated from the European championships. Result? Almost 100 confirmed cases and counting. They couldn't test everyone at the border because it got severely congested in hot weather, so some 800 people need to get tested on their own. I'm not liking this.
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Finnish football fans returned by bus from St. Petersburg, Russia after Finland was eliminated from the European championships. Result? Almost 100 confirmed cases and counting. They couldn't test everyone at the border because it got severely congested in hot weather, so some 800 people need to get tested on their own. I'm not liking this.
Are these people vaccinated? If not, I'm kind of surprised they allowed fans to travel internationally without that at this moment in time. If they are vaxxed, then I wouldn't be too worried about positive tests from forced testing. It's going to happen.
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Are these people vaccinated? If not, I'm kind of surprised they allowed fans to travel internationally without that at this moment in time. If they are vaxxed, then I wouldn't be too worried about positive tests from forced testing. It's going to happen.
Since most of them are likely not elderly they've had one dose, which is probably not as effective against the prominent Delta variant as the older strains. One dose tends to prevent severe outcomes (need of intensive care), but to properly prevent the spread we need both doses. Finland has vaccinated 55-60% of it's eligible population with at least one dose at this point.
I had my first dose on Monday, btw
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There's been 2 Canadian cases of deaths from the Delta variant from fully vaccinated individuals. So yeah, this virus does get stronger with each new variant it seems - and now India has identified a "Delta +".
No one is fully and absolutely immune. This is likely to be the new normal the world will live in for many years to come. I just hope the pharma's can keep one step ahead of the virus.
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There's been 2 Canadian cases of deaths from the Delta variant from fully vaccinated individuals. So yeah, this virus does get stronger with each new variant it seems
Well, no it's not possible to draw that conclusion from the available data. It's much more transmissable so is more likely to get past the vaccines. So if you're more likely to become infected, you're also more likely to be hospitalised or die, but only in relative terms. The proportion of infected people going to hospitable and dying is dropping massively as a result of the vaccines, even in the UK where the Delta variant is now completely dominant.
EDIT:
No one is fully and absolutely immune. This is likely to be the new normal the world will live in for many years to come. I just hope the pharma's can keep one step ahead of the virus.
Yes, agreed. The crucial thing will be the vaccines keeping deaths and hospitalisations low and comparable with other infectious illnesses, like flu and pneumonia. If they can do that, then to be honest I don't really see how the new normal would be massively different to the old normal.
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There's been 2 Canadian cases of deaths from the Delta variant from fully vaccinated individuals. So yeah, this virus does get stronger with each new variant it seems - and now India has identified a "Delta +".
No one is fully and absolutely immune. This is likely to be the new normal the world will live in for many years to come. I just hope the pharma's can keep one step ahead of the virus.
This honestly means very little when you look at the details:
Kerry Williamson with Alberta Health Services says the two patients, a man and a woman, were in their 80s, had significant co-morbidities and probably acquired the virus in the hospital.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-two-patients-at-calgary-hospital-die-from-covid-19-delta-variant/ (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-two-patients-at-calgary-hospital-die-from-covid-19-delta-variant/)
but your bolded statement is absolutely true. The vaccines do a great job at preventing severe infections, but it's not perfect. You can still get sick and if you are old and/or have other health issues, death is still possible. However, the data shows the % is very low and the vaccines overall are very effective.
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There's been 2 Canadian cases of deaths from the Delta variant from fully vaccinated individuals. So yeah, this virus does get stronger with each new variant it seems - and now India has identified a "Delta +".
No one is fully and absolutely immune. This is likely to be the new normal the world will live in for many years to come. I just hope the pharma's can keep one step ahead of the virus.
This honestly means very little when you look at the details:
Kerry Williamson with Alberta Health Services says the two patients, a man and a woman, were in their 80s, had significant co-morbidities and probably acquired the virus in the hospital.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-two-patients-at-calgary-hospital-die-from-covid-19-delta-variant/ (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-two-patients-at-calgary-hospital-die-from-covid-19-delta-variant/)
but your bolded statement is absolutely true. The vaccines do a great job at preventing severe infections, but it's not perfect. You can still get sick and if you are old and/or have other health issues, death is still possible. However, the data shows the % is very low and the vaccines overall are very effective.
Precisely. Peoples immune systems could still be bad enough that a vaccine won't help them really. They could die from catching any other coronavirus besides Covid-19.
After factoring in the age, co-morbidities, and the fact they were in the hospital already. It's important to have these facts when discussing the severity.
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After my first shot I got a red rash on my left buttock treated first with antivirals.... went away, came back and was treated with antibiotica.... went away
What do yo think happened after my second shot. Same place a red rash.... now I'm on antibiotica again
Hope it works this time
Looks like I'm the second swede to get erysipelas after the vaccine.... well I got it twice...
Oh well... at least I have some loose underware that I bought after my first shot
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That's unforunate Goose, is it going to be something long term or will the next round of meds clear it up? My aunt had some rashes from her first shot and didn't follow up for the 2nd because of that.
In covid death related news: https://www.yahoo.com/news/nearly-covid-deaths-us-now-154100375.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/nearly-covid-deaths-us-now-154100375.html)
Nearly all COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. now are in people who weren’t vaccinated, a staggering demonstration of how effective the shots have been and an indication that deaths per day — now down to under 300 — could be practically zero if everyone eligible got the vaccine.
An Associated Press analysis of available government data from May shows that “breakthrough” infections in fully vaccinated people accounted for fewer than 1,200 of more than 853,000 COVID-19 hospitalizations. That’s about 0.1%.
And only about 150 of the more than 18,000 COVID-19 deaths in May were in fully vaccinated people. That translates to about 0.8%, or five deaths per day on average.
As stated earlier, death is not 100% escapeable from the vaccines, but it's still highly effective and the trends really show how much so. Also, while this article doesn't give stats about those who have died while fully vaxxed, other stories I have read show that it's mostl older people with health issues. Vaccinated young or healthy people aren't dying.
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There's been 2 Canadian cases of deaths from the Delta variant from fully vaccinated individuals. So yeah, this virus does get stronger with each new variant it seems - and now India has identified a "Delta +".
No one is fully and absolutely immune. This is likely to be the new normal the world will live in for many years to come. I just hope the pharma's can keep one step ahead of the virus.
This honestly means very little when you look at the details:
Kerry Williamson with Alberta Health Services says the two patients, a man and a woman, were in their 80s, had significant co-morbidities and probably acquired the virus in the hospital.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-two-patients-at-calgary-hospital-die-from-covid-19-delta-variant/ (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-two-patients-at-calgary-hospital-die-from-covid-19-delta-variant/)
but your bolded statement is absolutely true. The vaccines do a great job at preventing severe infections, but it's not perfect. You can still get sick and if you are old and/or have other health issues, death is still possible. However, the data shows the % is very low and the vaccines overall are very effective.
To be clear, when I said "stronger" i meant in any/all aspects of transmissibility and/or how it affects people. The vaccines were found to be 100% effective against death and hospitalization against the original strain. That's clearly not the case now with Delta. That's all I was trying to insinuate.
Also, the second case I was referring to was in Ontario actually. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/fully-vaccinated-woman-died-covid-19-waterloo-region-1.6072972. I'm not being chicken little, just suggesting that the variant's of the virus can have an impact on efficacy of vaccines. As Rich mentioned, I do think we're getting closer to these being like flu / pneumonia as opposed to Spanish Flu.
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That's unforunate Goose, is it going to be something long term or will the next round of meds clear it up? My aunt had some rashes from her first shot and didn't follow up for the 2nd because of that.
I certainly hope it will go away. It's very uncomfortable where it's placed.
Still glad I took a second shot and would take a 3rd too if/when it's deemed necessary.
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Got my first shot of Pfizer-BioNTech yesterday! No side effects aside from a bit of a sore arm.
Second dose in September. :tup
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Got home from Florida yesterday. I wore a mask twice - once, when it was required at Gulf World, though there were plenty that disobeyed that request, including one dude in a shirt that just said 'MURICA, and once when my wife freaked out on the first day at a random gas station in Kentucky (just to go along with her and set an example for the kids).
NOBODY wore a mask in Panama City Beach. One day, i was in an elevator with 14 other people, coming up from the pool. Zero masks, no social distancing. I just embraced it and threw it all to the wind. I'm vaccinated. No point in trying to social distance when there are only two slow elevators, hundreds of people at the pool and beach, and I'm on the 14th floor. I took the stairs up with my daughter one day just because waiting for an elevator would have taken 45 minutes based on the line. I had to laugh - Chicago just removed their big social distancing floor stickers in elevators, only allowing four people in an elevator - one in each corner, and here I am in Florida, where we're packing into an elevator as tightly as possible. :lol
I loved it, it felt normal again and so freeing. I wanted the kids to feel normal and have fun on vacation, so I wasn't going to be a stickler on them wearing masks. My wife eventually got over her heebie-jeebies and stopped freaking out about being around strangers after a day or two. Though we constantly joked about how COVID just isn't a thing in the south.
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I loved it, it felt normal again and so freeing.
Yup! I told my friend who is going to transition back to working in the office in NYC that it's like riding a bike. It feels very awkward at first but then it just feels normal fairly quickly.
If I can be in a sold out MSG, I feel like I'm comfortable doing anything again. Having said that, it's in the back of my mind.... did I get exposed? I'm not worried, just curious.
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One of the local pharmacies here had extra doses at the end of the day yesterday, so the jingle.kids got their second shot. Now the entire jingle.family is double vaccinated.
Still under a lot of restrictions here in Ontario (only 30% of adults are double vax'd, though 77% have at least 1 dose). As of Wednesday, the province enters stage 2 of re-opening, and should enter stage 3 in another 21 days. This damn government ... back in the winter when there was very little vaccine supply, they weren't cautious enough, and opened up things unnecessarily and too fast. Now, with vaccines on the rise (almost 250k doses administered yesterday, the highest single day total yet), they're still slow and overly cautious.
jingle.kids start their work on Thursday and next Monday respectively, so it's a massive relief for mrs.jingle that they're double-vax'd - especially jingle.daughter, who's a camp counsellor with young kids who won't/can't be vax'd.
"Normal" is still quite a few months away around here.
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I loved it, it felt normal again and so freeing.
Having said that, it's in the back of my mind.... did I get exposed? I'm not worried, just curious.
That's exactly how I felt, and it's all situational. I'm comfortable being in my office or around a small amount of people that I know without a mask. But when I'm in a big group or around strangers, I wonder if I've been exposed. I'm not fearful, but I'm certainly aware. My wife is more concerned about the kids, since they're too young to be vaccinated yet.
While we were in the south, I just assumed that a lot of people already had COVID and it didn't matter.
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I'm getting mine on the 27th and the second on August 1st!
Yay! That was today!
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This is encouraging:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9733211/Pfizer-Moderna-COVID-19-vaccines-provide-protection-against-virus-years-study-finds.html
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This is encouraging:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9733211/Pfizer-Moderna-COVID-19-vaccines-provide-protection-against-virus-years-study-finds.html
I hope so!
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That would be amazing :hat
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While that may be the case, if have an old work colleague who participated in the first Pfizer trials, and is now participating in a booster trial.
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I've always kind of felt the vaccines should be good for quite awhile and maybe even a lifetime based on how it's designed to teach your body to fight off the spiked protein which so far hasn't changed from any of the mutations and likely why all the vaccines are still effective.
Having said that, I am reading more and more about how mixing the MRNa and Adenovirus vaccines may actually be the most effective way of being vaccinated. Makes me consider the idea of getting a pfizer/moderna shot since I got J&J. But so far, the virus really just isn't an issue locally to have me concerned at all and I shouldn't be taking any shot that can go into someone who isn't vaccinated.
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While that may be the case, if have an old work colleague who participated in the first Pfizer trials, and is now participating in a booster trial.
Of course, they'll need to trial boosters of all the vaccines to see what difference it makes.
If the mRNA ones really do provide lifetime or at least much longer lasting full protection, that would be amazing and would also make it worth how much more they cost than the other jabs.
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Cautiously optimistic.
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Another 3 day lockdown here in Brisbane Aus starting today.
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Another 3 day lockdown here in Brisbane Aus starting today.
I read something that like Australian only purchased vaccines for like 4% of the population? I guess because they've overall been pretty good with low infections, but it seems kind of ignorant to not want to vaccinate the country.
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Another 3 day lockdown here in Brisbane Aus starting today.
I read something that like Australian only purchased vaccines for like 4% of the population? I guess because they've overall been pretty good with low infections, but it seems kind of ignorant to not want to vaccinate the country.
I haven't been following the news that much over here truthfully, mainly because we've had it so easier, but yeah, something like that. Now though Sydney is in lock down and now us because it's this new Delta strain and now the government is panicking pushing to try and get more people vaccinated. But I heard the vaccine doesn't work or something against this new strain? Not sure but it's a mess.
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Another 3 day lockdown here in Brisbane Aus starting today.
I read something that like Australian only purchased vaccines for like 4% of the population? I guess because they've overall been pretty good with low infections, but it seems kind of ignorant to not want to vaccinate the country.
I haven't been following the news that much over here truthfully, mainly because we've had it so easier, but yeah, something like that. Now though Sydney is in lock down and now us because it's this new Delta strain and now the government is panicking pushing to try and get more people vaccinated. But I heard the vaccine doesn't work or something against this new strain? Not sure but it's a mess.
Nah, as far as I know, all the vaccines (at least within the US, not sure what ones Australia has) are effective against all known varaints at this time. They may be slightly less effective, but so far the evidence seems they work well.
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Another 3 day lockdown here in Brisbane Aus starting today.
I read something that like Australian only purchased vaccines for like 4% of the population? I guess because they've overall been pretty good with low infections, but it seems kind of ignorant to not want to vaccinate the country.
I haven't been following the news that much over here truthfully, mainly because we've had it so easier, but yeah, something like that. Now though Sydney is in lock down and now us because it's this new Delta strain and now the government is panicking pushing to try and get more people vaccinated. But I heard the vaccine doesn't work or something against this new strain? Not sure but it's a mess.
They work, but the Delta strain can cause hospitalization and has even been the cause of a few deaths of fully vaccinated people here in Canada. That strain is no joke, so panic is not a bad response.
But yeah, your gov't should get off their asses and get buying some vaccines.
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Ah fair enough then. Yeah, I think we were ahead of the pack and then a little bit of complacency may have crept in from the government. The quick response and panick is real though.
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Just got home from getting my 2nd vaccine shot. Feels good to be fully vaccinated now - well as full as you can be after two shots.
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I got the appointment for my first shot in a week! The second shot is scheduled 12 weeks from now because of a delay with Pfizer, and it will be interesting to see if they shorten the wait again because we're getting more Moderna. I'm surprised my first dose wasn't scheduled as Moderna but as Pfizer tbh, I hope they do more Moderna for a while to bring the wait to a more acceptable interval. AFAIK we are the only country doing this with the mRNA vaccines, when I told people from all different countries about my dates everyone asked if I was getting Astra Zeneca.
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I got the appointment for my first shot in a week! The second shot is scheduled 12 weeks from now because of a delay with Pfizer, and it will be interesting to see if they shorten the wait again because we're getting more Moderna. I'm surprised my first dose wasn't scheduled as Moderna but as Pfizer tbh, I hope they do more Moderna for a while to bring the wait to a more acceptable interval. AFAIK we are the only country doing this with the mRNA vaccines, when I told people from all different countries about my dates everyone asked if I was getting Astra Zeneca.
No, Canada had all vaccines spaced at 16 weeks once they got past the long-term care residents and staff. Once supply stabilized and we got to about 65% with 1 dose, only then did they start shortening the interval. I ended up being 8 weeks in between (AZ + Pfizer). Jingle.kids got bumped up to 5 weeks (Pfizer + Moderna)
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Here's an example of the delta variants vs. vaccinated, from Sydney
https://www.yahoo.com/news/delta-variant-infected-almost-everyone-194317750.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/delta-variant-infected-almost-everyone-194317750.html)
A birthday party in Australia has been called a "superspreader" event after 24 guests tested positive for the coronavirus.
The highly infectious Delta variant could have infected every guest at the party had there not been six fully vaccinated healthcare workers in attendance, New South Wales Health Minister Brad Hazzard said on Monday.
Hazzard told reporters that all 24 guests who tested positive were unvaccinated, demonstrating "just how important vaccinations are," per the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.
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Another 3 day lockdown here in Brisbane Aus starting today.
I read something that like Australian only purchased vaccines for like 4% of the population? I guess because they've overall been pretty good with low infections, but it seems kind of ignorant to not want to vaccinate the country.
I haven't been following the news that much over here truthfully, mainly because we've had it so easier, but yeah, something like that. Now though Sydney is in lock down and now us because it's this new Delta strain and now the government is panicking pushing to try and get more people vaccinated. But I heard the vaccine doesn't work or something against this new strain? Not sure but it's a mess.
I don't know, most of the mainstream science people are saying the vaccines are highly effective against the delta variant.
https://www.uchealth.org/today/vaccines-work-well-against-covid-19-delta-variant/
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From what I've read, mRNA and Astrazeneca is nearly as effective after 2 doses, but 1 dose provides significantly less protection, which is what is driving the rise in cases in the UK atm.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01696-3
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Our surgical director and one other staff member have tested positive. Things are better but we still have al ways to go.
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From what I've read, mRNA and Astrazeneca is nearly as effective after 2 doses, but 1 dose provides significantly less protection, which is what is driving the rise in cases in the UK atm.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01696-3
That is to say, significantly less protection against any form of symptomatic infection. But one dose is still highly effective at reducing the severity of infection.
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From what I've read, mRNA and Astrazeneca is nearly as effective after 2 doses, but 1 dose provides significantly less protection, which is what is driving the rise in cases in the UK atm.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01696-3
That is to say, significantly less protection against any form of symptomatic infection. But one dose is still highly effective at reducing the severity of infection.
This. Considering the gap of how many people in Canada have 1 dose and who are fully dosed (75% of 12-and-older have 1 dose; 53% are double dosed), and how the case counts have plummeted over the past 2 months (approx 90% reduction in daily case counts), 1 dose does have a meaningful impact.
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I thought I read somewhere that one dose of the Moderna or Pfizer is just slightly less effective than the current flu shots we get. The second dose propels it to significantly higher effective rate. I mean, to some extent we're spoiled with this idea that everything has to be perfect. I get it, we live in an age of medical marvels and we should take advantage of that; but never at the expense of forgetting that we're here by the grace of god/random chance/dumb luck/fate/whatever you believe in.
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AFAIK we are the only country doing this with the mRNA vaccines, when I told people from all different countries about my dates everyone asked if I was getting Astra Zeneca.
Finland is also doing the 12 week interval thing to ensure a good coverage of people with one dose. My parents had AZ for their first dose and will be getting Pfizer or Moderna for their second on Monday. I will most likely have Pfizer for both doses.
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Recent data showed that of the almost 20 million Californians vaccinated, only 7550 have had breakthrough infections, for a .039% infection rate. Dayum.
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It's become much worse in Missouri. Springfield's hospitals are nearly full and they have run out of ventilators and they have had to redirect patients out of State.
The delta variant is infecting mainly the unvaccinated but it's also jumping the Phizer vaccine (No word on Moderna) but vaccinated people aren't getting as sick as they possibly could be. Also, we have a pretty significant outbreak in our assisted living facilities.
Oh - and the Governor has approved of a Federal task force to come in and evaluate things (whatever that means).
Right now, it's the unvaccinated that pose the greatest threat to our way of life.
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Why spend the money on a task force, I can do that job.
My report-get fucking vaccinated.
Over 99% of current covid death are unvaccinated. I mean, CA the stats get any more blatant?
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The delta variant is infecting mainly the unvaccinated but it's also jumping the Phizer vaccine (No word on Moderna) but vaccinated people aren't getting as sick as they possibly could be. Also, we have a pretty significant outbreak in our assisted living facilities.
Israel is showing data that the pfizer is less effective against infection of the delta variant but still highly effective (over 90%) for server infection or death. So, it's still basically really good at keeping people alive.
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While the Delta variant may be the prevalent variant right now.....I think it says something when their reporting the percentage of cases are delta......and aren't reporting the actual number of cases. I haven't bothered to really look into it but I suspect that is because it's more frightening to say that 80% of the recent reported cases are the delta variant rather than report the actual number of cases because the cases are low.
Yes, Springfield's ICU's filled up but that also has to do with the fact that the majority of the hospitals have returned to normal operations.....and in normal operations there aren't a lot of ICU rooms.
Listen....I'm not dismissing any of this.....only maintaining that if there is ANY opportunity for the media to pimp fear and milk this covid deal to the last drop they will. At this point, the people who are going to get the vaccine have and those who aren't haven't. If you get covid and are unvaccinated then it's kind of your own fault and it shouldn't be news.
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Fair points Gary, but two things are still an issue (in my mind).
1 - The vaccinated people that still catch it (whether mildly, or severely), we don't know if those individuals might potentially suffer from 'long haul' effects. Only time will tell.
2 - You can't convince me that there won't be a "US variant" at some point in the future. With many southern states as low as the low 30% of fully vaccinated people, I firmly believe it's a matter if when, not if it will mutate in the US.
The Delta variant is something to be 'concerned' about - not nearly to the extent the world was/should've been with the original strain at the start of the pandemic, but it is still something that is going to cause a lot of sickness and death still.
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Fair points Gary, but two things are still an issue (in my mind).
1 - The vaccinated people that still catch it (whether mildly, or severely), we don't know if those individuals might potentially suffer from 'long haul' effects. Only time will tell.
2 - You can't convince me that there won't be a "US variant" at some point in the future. With many southern states as low as the low 30% of fully vaccinated people, I firmly believe it's a matter if when, not if it will mutate in the US.
The Delta variant is something to be 'concerned' about - not nearly to the extent the world was/should've been with the original strain at the start of the pandemic, but it is still something that is going to cause a lot of sickness and death still.
I think there's over 4000 covid variants. I'm sure many of those are from the US. It's just a matter if the variant mutates in a way to make it more dangerous. I have still not seen any data to say any variant is more "deadly" than the other. There's lots of data to show ones like Delta are more contagious though and because of that, they become dominant. A US version could become dominant at some point, but a bit less likely due to the overall high vaccination rate. I read something today that even breakthrough cases of infections, those people aren't likely to create a variant because generally the viral load is too low, similar to how vaccinated people aren't likely to spread covid.
The only concern to me, are the people who don't get vaccinated because of bogus reasons, not the variants themselves. The reason this will drag on and more and more people will die is because of people choosing not to vaccinate and the people who can't get vaccinated (whether due to age, health issues, or no access to a vaccine... all legit reasons that the bogus people can very much help with)
Having said that, NJ has reported no deaths today. Hospitalizations are at all time lows since this started. Yes, there are still infections happening, but very small amounts. NJ is ranked around 7/8 in states for vaccinations. "the proof is in the pudding" as I've said time and time again with these vaccines. They work, the data shows this. The side effect risks are very much worth it. I know this all falls on deaf ears to the anti vaxx people, but I can't help myself from expressing this.
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It feels kind of weird to me that the actual numbers of those fully (or even partially vaccinated) are as low as they still are. But whatever. :dunno:
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got pfizer dose #2 today. I know there's two weeks before it kicks in fully but it feels good to be here, finally
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Awesome.
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Went to a bar in New York City with some coworkers last night and had drinks with no masks, no distance. Felt weird but oddly invigorating.
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Went to a bar in New York City with some coworkers last night and had drinks with no masks, no distance. Felt weird but oddly invigorating.
I notice I didn't get a call. :'(
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Went to a bar in New York City with some coworkers last night and had drinks with no masks, no distance. Felt weird but oddly invigorating.
I notice I didn't get a call. :'(
I'm sorry! It would have been nice to see you. But I wasn't the senior person in the group so I didn't know when or where I'd be until I was pretty much there! :)
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Fair points Gary, but two things are still an issue (in my mind).
1 - The vaccinated people that still catch it (whether mildly, or severely), we don't know if those individuals might potentially suffer from 'long haul' effects. Only time will tell.
2 - You can't convince me that there won't be a "US variant" at some point in the future. With many southern states as low as the low 30% of fully vaccinated people, I firmly believe it's a matter if when, not if it will mutate in the US.
The Delta variant is something to be 'concerned' about - not nearly to the extent the world was/should've been with the original strain at the start of the pandemic, but it is still something that is going to cause a lot of sickness and death still.
I don't disagree and again...I'm not trying to dismiss it. I just go back to when this all began and it was 'two weeks to slow the spread' that was to not overload the hospitals....it was never to make sure that no one caught this. Average, healthy people are not going to die from Covid even if they're unvaccinated. Sure there have been the random one offs of 'healthy' people dying but those who die are almost always people with underlying health issues that Covid intensifies and compounds.
That doesn't mean I want people to die or anything like that....only that, with the amount of vaccinated people out there and our healthcare systems being unlikely to be overwhelmed.....to me it just is what it is now. If you want to run around unvaccinated and take your chances then so be it. You're probably going to get sick at some point.
I personally don't think we will see some massive influx of a new strain infecting at the same rate that the original did due to the amount of people who have either had Covid and/or been vaccinated. I think we're probably looking at something similar to the Flu.....Covid never goes away and it just becomes a part of our lives and as the years progress our systems learn how to better defend against it and we carry on.
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Fair points Gary, but two things are still an issue (in my mind).
1 - The vaccinated people that still catch it (whether mildly, or severely), we don't know if those individuals might potentially suffer from 'long haul' effects. Only time will tell.
2 - You can't convince me that there won't be a "US variant" at some point in the future. With many southern states as low as the low 30% of fully vaccinated people, I firmly believe it's a matter if when, not if it will mutate in the US.
The Delta variant is something to be 'concerned' about - not nearly to the extent the world was/should've been with the original strain at the start of the pandemic, but it is still something that is going to cause a lot of sickness and death still.
I don't disagree and again...I'm not trying to dismiss it. I just go back to when this all began and it was 'two weeks to slow the spread' that was to not overload the hospitals....it was never to make sure that no one caught this. Average, healthy people are not going to die from Covid even if they're unvaccinated. Sure there have been the random one offs of 'healthy' people dying but those who die are almost always people with underlying health issues that Covid intensifies and compounds.
That doesn't mean I want people to die or anything like that....only that, with the amount of vaccinated people out there and our healthcare systems being unlikely to be overwhelmed.....to me it just is what it is now. If you want to run around unvaccinated and take your chances then so be it. You're probably going to get sick at some point.
I personally don't think we will see some massive influx of a new strain infecting at the same rate that the original did due to the amount of people who have either had Covid and/or been vaccinated. I think we're probably looking at something similar to the Flu.....Covid never goes away and it just becomes a part of our lives and as the years progress our systems learn how to better defend against it and we carry on.
We're still here. And we will still be here, as the human race has survived loads of worse turmoil.
I could say a lot more about what causes sickness and death, but I do not want to get into a big argument over it.
To put it simply, the causes of sickness and death deal with how every organism within this Earth relies on each other. Our sicknesses and diseases are reactions to these ways we humans are treating the Earth, no other organism is destroying the balance of Earth. All you need to do is look at the pollution, and the worry of Global Warming, to get a sense of how the human species is affecting the other organisms living in the world.
We rely on the plants and animals for our sustenance. When we put chemicals in the water, air, and land, when we change the environmental habitat of the minerals and organisms, we create a reaction in the animals whom use the water, air, land, minerals, and organisms for sustenance. In turn, when we eat these animals and plants, we absorb these environmental changes, thus what we eat is having an affect on our overall health, as these environmental changes are affecting the overall health of the organisms in the Earth.
If people and humans really do care about our health and ridding ourselves of sickness and disease. I feel, an entire change of mindset and lifestyle needs to happen. Or else, with the way the machine is rolling, it's not going to look good for our future generations down the road. They will experience worse diseases and worse natural disasters than we are seeing today. All for the comforts of the lifestyle humans currently are living.
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Fair points Gary, but two things are still an issue (in my mind).
1 - The vaccinated people that still catch it (whether mildly, or severely), we don't know if those individuals might potentially suffer from 'long haul' effects. Only time will tell.
2 - You can't convince me that there won't be a "US variant" at some point in the future. With many southern states as low as the low 30% of fully vaccinated people, I firmly believe it's a matter if when, not if it will mutate in the US.
The Delta variant is something to be 'concerned' about - not nearly to the extent the world was/should've been with the original strain at the start of the pandemic, but it is still something that is going to cause a lot of sickness and death still.
I don't disagree and again...I'm not trying to dismiss it. I just go back to when this all began and it was 'two weeks to slow the spread' that was to not overload the hospitals....it was never to make sure that no one caught this. Average, healthy people are not going to die from Covid even if they're unvaccinated. Sure there have been the random one offs of 'healthy' people dying but those who die are almost always people with underlying health issues that Covid intensifies and compounds.
That doesn't mean I want people to die or anything like that....only that, with the amount of vaccinated people out there and our healthcare systems being unlikely to be overwhelmed.....to me it just is what it is now. If you want to run around unvaccinated and take your chances then so be it. You're probably going to get sick at some point.
I personally don't think we will see some massive influx of a new strain infecting at the same rate that the original did due to the amount of people who have either had Covid and/or been vaccinated. I think we're probably looking at something similar to the Flu.....Covid never goes away and it just becomes a part of our lives and as the years progress our systems learn how to better defend against it and we carry on.
On this, I agree whole-heartedly. The rest, not so much. More and more, the Delta variant is going to bring many States crashing back to the realities the rest of the world has had to deal with - especially those states with low vaccination rates.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/08/us-heading-for-dangerous-fall-with-surge-in-delta-covid-cases-and-return-of-indoor-mask-mandates.html
Some excerpts:
As the highly transmissible delta Covid variant continues to spread rapidly across the United States and elsewhere around the world, scientists and other health experts are warning that indoor mask mandates and other public health measures will likely make a return in the U.S. this fall.
Authorities in Australia, South Africa and Asia have recently reintroduced curfews or other measures to curb rising delta outbreaks. Japan just declared a coronavirus state of emergency in Tokyo and banned spectators at the Olympics. High vaccination rates in the U.S. and the warm summer months have bought the country some extra time, but outbreaks across the world are giving Americans a preview of what may come this fall.
“I could foresee that in certain parts of the country, there could be a reintroduction of indoor mask mandates, distancing and occupancy limits” in the coming months, said Lawrence Gostin, director of the World Health Organization’s Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law.
He said he fears there will be “major outbreaks” in the U.S. this fall, especially in states with low vaccination rates.
“We are heading for a very dangerous fall, with large swaths of the country still unvaccinated, a surging delta variant and people taking off their masks,” Gostin added.
Officials in Los Angeles County, California, also recommended last week that “everyone, regardless of vaccination status,” wear masks indoors in public places as a precautionary measure.
Guys, seriously... and I'm not being Chicken Little here - don't get overly complacent. Remember the early warnings coming out of Italy and the UK way back in Feb/March last year? Never thought it could happen in the US, and you guys got it worse for that complacency. Look to what's happening in the UK, Israel and other places who are MORE vaccinated than the US.
Buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy ride.
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Fair points Gary, but two things are still an issue (in my mind).
1 - The vaccinated people that still catch it (whether mildly, or severely), we don't know if those individuals might potentially suffer from 'long haul' effects. Only time will tell.
2 - You can't convince me that there won't be a "US variant" at some point in the future. With many southern states as low as the low 30% of fully vaccinated people, I firmly believe it's a matter if when, not if it will mutate in the US.
The Delta variant is something to be 'concerned' about - not nearly to the extent the world was/should've been with the original strain at the start of the pandemic, but it is still something that is going to cause a lot of sickness and death still.
I don't disagree and again...I'm not trying to dismiss it. I just go back to when this all began and it was 'two weeks to slow the spread' that was to not overload the hospitals....it was never to make sure that no one caught this. Average, healthy people are not going to die from Covid even if they're unvaccinated. Sure there have been the random one offs of 'healthy' people dying but those who die are almost always people with underlying health issues that Covid intensifies and compounds.
That doesn't mean I want people to die or anything like that....only that, with the amount of vaccinated people out there and our healthcare systems being unlikely to be overwhelmed.....to me it just is what it is now. If you want to run around unvaccinated and take your chances then so be it. You're probably going to get sick at some point.
I personally don't think we will see some massive influx of a new strain infecting at the same rate that the original did due to the amount of people who have either had Covid and/or been vaccinated. I think we're probably looking at something similar to the Flu.....Covid never goes away and it just becomes a part of our lives and as the years progress our systems learn how to better defend against it and we carry on.
On this, I agree whole-heartedly. The rest, not so much. More and more, the Delta variant is going to bring many States crashing back to the realities the rest of the world has had to deal with - especially those states with low vaccination rates.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/08/us-heading-for-dangerous-fall-with-surge-in-delta-covid-cases-and-return-of-indoor-mask-mandates.html
Some excerpts:
As the highly transmissible delta Covid variant continues to spread rapidly across the United States and elsewhere around the world, scientists and other health experts are warning that indoor mask mandates and other public health measures will likely make a return in the U.S. this fall.
Authorities in Australia, South Africa and Asia have recently reintroduced curfews or other measures to curb rising delta outbreaks. Japan just declared a coronavirus state of emergency in Tokyo and banned spectators at the Olympics. High vaccination rates in the U.S. and the warm summer months have bought the country some extra time, but outbreaks across the world are giving Americans a preview of what may come this fall.
“I could foresee that in certain parts of the country, there could be a reintroduction of indoor mask mandates, distancing and occupancy limits” in the coming months, said Lawrence Gostin, director of the World Health Organization’s Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law.
He said he fears there will be “major outbreaks” in the U.S. this fall, especially in states with low vaccination rates.
“We are heading for a very dangerous fall, with large swaths of the country still unvaccinated, a surging delta variant and people taking off their masks,” Gostin added.
Officials in Los Angeles County, California, also recommended last week that “everyone, regardless of vaccination status,” wear masks indoors in public places as a precautionary measure.
Guys, seriously... and I'm not being Chicken Little here - don't get overly complacent. Remember the early warnings coming out of Italy and the UK way back in Feb/March last year? Never thought it could happen in the US, and you guys got it worse for that complacency. Look to what's happening in the UK, Israel and other places who are MORE vaccinated than the US.
Buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy ride.
The vaccines clearly work, but I also keep thinking that last summer we(US and Canada) were doing pretty good without them until 2nd and 3rd waves started hitting. Right now places in the southern hemisphere like Autralia are in the winter, so I'm definitely worried about fall and winter up here.
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“I could foresee that in certain parts of the country, there could be a reintroduction of indoor mask mandates, distancing and occupancy limits” in the coming months, said Lawrence Gostin, director of the World Health Organization’s Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law.
There is no way that there will be renewed mask mandates, business shut downs, or any other major restrictions in the US.
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“I could foresee that in certain parts of the country, there could be a reintroduction of indoor mask mandates, distancing and occupancy limits” in the coming months, said Lawrence Gostin, director of the World Health Organization’s Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law.
There is no way that there will be renewed mask mandates, business shut downs, or any other major restrictions in the US.
I dont think so here either. Our Governor in NJ, with some of the most restrictions and yet some of the worst results, had pushed a campaign of move forward and not backward. There will be infections and waves, but all these will be less than 2020 and our capabilities as society to handle them.
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That and I strongly suspect your average person is just fed up with hearing about all of this, especially when you think you did all the right things last year then got the vaccine and all that jazz only for what seems like another effort to move the goalposts back just a little more. Not to be callous but in terms of how this particular virus ended up panning out there's a point where the financial impact outweighs public health impacts and personally I think we're at or beyond that point.
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“I could foresee that in certain parts of the country, there could be a reintroduction of indoor mask mandates, distancing and occupancy limits” in the coming months, said Lawrence Gostin, director of the World Health Organization’s Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law.
There is no way that there will be renewed mask mandates, business shut downs, or any other major restrictions in the US.
Guess you didn't read the article.
In Mississippi, for example, where less than a third of the state’s eligible population is fully vaccinated, officials last week recommended that all residents continue to wear masks indoors as delta becomes the dominant variant in the state. About 96% of new Covid cases in Mississippi are among unvaccinated people, state health officials said on a call with reporters
Mississippi!!!! And (which I already posted)
Officials in Los Angeles County, California, also recommended last week that “everyone, regardless of vaccination status,” wear masks indoors in public places as a precautionary measure.
Not "mandates" yet, but "recommendations" are the first step in that direction.
I hope your (US) optimism/confidence doesn't come back to bite you in the ass. I mean, ffs, you're not even 50% vaccinated nationally, Delta cases are growing at a 30% clip, much more transmissible, and even vaccinated people that don't get sick can transmit it ("Even people who are fully protected have cause for concern when it comes to Covid variants. While the vaccines protect well against severe disease and death, they may not protect as well against mild disease or spreading Covid to others"). But, whatever.... America's approach to handling the virus already put it at the top of the leaderboard in cases and deaths. Ya'll can place you faith in vaccines, but your collective execution of that strategy may not outpace the virus' ability to adapt and mutate.
Just as I stated in Feb '20, time will tell. A lot of people here were claiming the fears of the virus was being blown out of proportion back then.
:dunno:
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Don't worry so much; the COVIDs will kill off all the deplorable Republicans, and we'll be fine in 18-24 months. ;). I mean that to be more funny than sarcastic, but there has to be a balance. I was in NYC this week and they are HURTING. BAD. It cannot go back into lockdown, not for the sake of the 5 or 10% that refuse to be vaccinated or take precautions. It's bad, I get that, but there's a degree of risk - yes, including risk to you all who do EVERYTHING right - in living on this planet. This is one of them, and it's not really relevant if it's "preventable" in the strictest sense of the word.
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Current vaccination rates in NY state are 55-60%, so its not the "5-10% that refuse to be vaccinated". Restrictions will be required to keep the R0 in check until that number reaches the required threshold for natural sub-unity R0 values.
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Current vaccination rates in NY state are 55-60%, so its not the "5-10% that refuse to be vaccinated". Restrictions will be required to keep the R0 in check until that number reaches the required threshold for natural sub-unity R0 values.
It is shocking to see how many Americans are unwilling to get the vaccine. How is it in other countries?
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It is going relatively well for us. About 65% of our population have received at least one vaccine dose at this point in time (more than 10 million people). Cases are rising sharply now that most lockdown rules have ended, but hospital numbers remain low and are expected to stay relatively low, as the majority of vulnerable people have had a shot.
But now we have another problem. If we have too many cases, other countries will label us "red", thus significantly impacting the freedom of our citizens in the EU. We are a small country and many people work abroad, so this doesn't just affect holiday plans.
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Serbia capped out at about 37% fully vaccinated. Granted, a lot of people must have antibodies, because there was an initial spring wave, a very deadly summer wave, and then the standard winter wave, but for the past few months you could have literally walked into a vaccine center, chosen a vaccine and gotten revaccinated in 3 weeks, and they still haven't run out.
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It's not really surprising to me, as I know and understand just how many different mindsets we have here in America. These mindsets are based on the culture, values, and beliefs, of a society. We have so many that they're butting heads with each other.
America is just realizing that not everyone has the same mindset as them, the dominant society mindset. And it's becoming a shock, how people can think and feel differently.
Here's how it is in Mexico.
https://theconsciousresistance.com/indigenous-towns-in-mexico-are-rejecting-the-co-vid-shots/
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It's the other culture I'm talking about Ben. We are also not talking about the common cold. It's much bigger than one's beliefs. There are many who call this a hoax. There is a lot in America that believe that.
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America is just realizing that not everyone has the same mindset as them, the dominant society mindset. And it's becoming a shock, how people can think and feel differently.
Just realizing? 160 years ago there was a literal war that was Americans vs Americans.
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It's the other culture I'm talking about Ben. We are also not talking about the common cold. It's much bigger than one's beliefs. There are many who call this a hoax. There is a lot in America that believe that.
You sure. Cause the destruction of the planet is bigger than ones beliefs. Yet, no one seems to give a shit about the planet. These sicknesses and diseases are the reactions to what we are doing on the planet.
But people have the belief that profits are more beneficial for humans than the ecological value of the planet. In turn, causing us humans more sickness as they deplete the nature in the forests, toxify the waters, and pollute the air.
But they won't change it because they are making profits by using ignorance of 'science' against the people.
Science is good, but it has been used for an agenda before. Like they do when we tell them not to drill on the land, and not to build the pipeline, as it will cause toxifying of the water and not only humans use the water. Plants, and animals use that water, the minerals use that water.
Also, that culture and society has made their decision and who are we to tell them they made a wrong decision? To them, it is good to die for your beliefs. If this pandemic is as bad as the 'experts' say, they'll die off. And you won't have to worry about them and their beliefs getting in the way anymore.
And then you have Fauci saying there's 2 Americas, and that Poll with vaccination and election results. Yeah, that doesn't scream dividing the nation and creating a civil war.
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Anyone who tells you it's good to die for your beliefs are radicalized. In this day and age I hope no one is that willing to give up one's life for nothing.
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Anyone who tells you it's good to die for your beliefs are radicalized. In this day and age I hope no one is that willing to give up one's life for nothing.
Dude, people do that all the time. I believe in this bungee cord that it will save me, I have faith it will save me. Yet, it snaps and he dies. He died for his belief that the bungee will save him.
Us Native Americans died for our beliefs and values. We considered it a good day to die.
There are times when it is good to die.
And this is dependant on ones beliefs and values of Death. As death itself is viewed differently throughout the world.
All that you're saying is based on your own values and beliefs. That is your mindset. And not everyone has that same mindset as you.
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I think it's time for vaccine mandates and vaccine passports. Children have to get vaccinated for measles, mumps etc.. before they can enroll in school.
Nobody bats an eye when they have to have a license to drive with the whole point of making our streets safer. Nobody bitches about personal freedoms when they are not allowed to smoke in a restaurant.
This while mindset of personal freedoms and beliefs has gotten out of hand. Whatever happened to good old "personal responsibility" or doing something positive for the greater whole of society? Governors have signed laws that prohibit businesses from requiring vaccinations of employees. Whatever happened to being pro-business?
The unvaccinated pose a clear an present threat to all of society so it's time their for freedoms are curtailed. You want to go to a football game then you need to get vaccinated. Eat out? Vaccinate.
What happens when a variant jumps the vaccine and now we are all in danger again?
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America is just realizing that not everyone has the same mindset as them, the dominant society mindset. And it's becoming a shock, how people can think and feel differently.
Just realizing? 160 years ago there was a literal war that was Americans vs Americans.
See, I push back on any statement that says we're aware or enlightened about our differences. America is about as intolerant a society as I can name that still tries to use the words "democracy" and "free will" in the title. I don't mean racial or identity intolerance; I mean personal intolerance. We not only tolerate but CELEBRATE marginalizing and ostracizing those that don't see the world "our" way. if you don't like socialized medicine, you want to kill babies! If you don't like reasonable immigration policy you're "letting criminals flood our country". And it gets uglier: our response now is predominantly ad hominem: the other side is "deplorable", "unhinged", "radical", "extreme". I can go back and forth with topics from both sides, where there's almost no acceptance of ANYTHING that violates our precious and sacred world view (which is nothing but opinion; the world is not black and white, right and wrong).
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I think it's time for vaccine mandates and vaccine passports. Children have to get vaccinated for measles, mumps etc.. before they can enroll in school.
Nobody bats an eye when they have to have a license to drive with the whole point of making our streets safer. Nobody bitches about personal freedoms when they are not allowed to smoke in a restaurant.
This while mindset of personal freedoms and beliefs has gotten out of hand. Whatever happened to good old "personal responsibility" or doing something positive for the greater whole of society? Governors have signed laws that prohibit businesses from requiring vaccinations of employees. Whatever happened to being pro-business?
The unvaccinated pose a clear an present threat to all of society so it's time their for freedoms are curtailed. You want to go to a football game then you need to get vaccinated. Eat out? Vaccinate.
What happens when a variant jumps the vaccine and now we are all in danger again?
All those are choices, not mandates. I don't have to drive; I know plenty of people that just say no to driving. I don't have to attend the schools that require vaccinations; I know plenty of people that home school their kids, several because they don't want poison and DNA trackers pushed into their kids' bloodstreams.
I'm glad - sincerely - you're so certain about what other people should do with their lives. I'm not. I don't believe we can force people do things just because there might be a benefit to "society". How about we euthanize unrepentant killers or rapists? How about we sterilize those with genetic abnormalities. Go back to my post above; people CAN disagree, including on what the criteria should be for the violation of personal liberties.
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Anyone who tells you it's good to die for your beliefs are radicalized. In this day and age I hope no one is that willing to give up one's life for nothing.
Dude, people do that all the time. I believe in this bungee cord that it will save me, I have faith it will save me. Yet, it snaps and he dies. He died for his belief that the bungee will save him.
Us Native Americans died for our beliefs and values. We considered it a good day to die.
There are times when it is good to die.
And this is dependant on ones beliefs and values of Death. As death itself is viewed differently throughout the world.
All that you're saying is based on your own values and beliefs. That is your mindset. And not everyone has that same mindset as you.
Ben those beliefs that Native Americans died for were good reasons 200 years ago. Now, we have a better understanding and can meld both worlds. There are so many people that think the vaccine was rushed out when in fact it was worked on for decades. Sometimes you can't always go by believe but you have to by science.
I'm not forcing anyone to get it but in all honesty people who put their beliefs first need to do their homework and then respond. It's obvious that the vaccine is working and there is data to back it up.
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Anyone who tells you it's good to die for your beliefs are radicalized. In this day and age I hope no one is that willing to give up one's life for nothing.
Dude, people do that all the time. I believe in this bungee cord that it will save me, I have faith it will save me. Yet, it snaps and he dies. He died for his belief that the bungee will save him.
Us Native Americans died for our beliefs and values. We considered it a good day to die.
There are times when it is good to die.
And this is dependant on ones beliefs and values of Death. As death itself is viewed differently throughout the world.
All that you're saying is based on your own values and beliefs. That is your mindset. And not everyone has that same mindset as you.
Ben those beliefs that Native Americans died for were good reasons 200 years ago. Now, we have a better understanding and can meld both worlds. There are so many people that think the vaccine was rushed out when in fact it was worked on for decades. Sometimes you can't always go by believe but you have to by science.
I'm not forcing anyone to get it but in all honesty people who put their beliefs first need to do their homework and then respond. It's obvious that the vaccine is working and there is data to back it up.
I have no problem with increased education. I think we will get many people to - even if in secret - to put aside their vocal "beliefs" and get the vaccine if we give them data. Calling them "unhinged" and forcing them will not get it done.
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Speaking of Native Americans....
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/native-americans-highest-covid-vaccination-rate-us/ (https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/native-americans-highest-covid-vaccination-rate-us/) :tup
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Exactly Stads. People want to live off faith but put some time into the data shown then make a educated decision.
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Speaking of Native Americans....
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/native-americans-highest-covid-vaccination-rate-us/ (https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/native-americans-highest-covid-vaccination-rate-us/) :tup
Thanks Marc. This goes to show what I was talking about. 200 years later, the Native Americans have embraced both world of faith and science. Do your homework to find the answers you need.
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I think it's time for vaccine mandates and vaccine passports. Children have to get vaccinated for measles, mumps etc.. before they can enroll in school.
Nobody bats an eye when they have to have a license to drive with the whole point of making our streets safer. Nobody bitches about personal freedoms when they are not allowed to smoke in a restaurant.
This while mindset of personal freedoms and beliefs has gotten out of hand. Whatever happened to good old "personal responsibility" or doing something positive for the greater whole of society? Governors have signed laws that prohibit businesses from requiring vaccinations of employees. Whatever happened to being pro-business?
The unvaccinated pose a clear an present threat to all of society so it's time their for freedoms are curtailed. You want to go to a football game then you need to get vaccinated. Eat out? Vaccinate.
What happens when a variant jumps the vaccine and now we are all in danger again?
All those are choices, not mandates. I don't have to drive; I know plenty of people that just say no to driving. I don't have to attend the schools that require vaccinations; I know plenty of people that home school their kids, several because they don't want poison and DNA trackers pushed into their kids' bloodstreams.
I'm glad - sincerely - you're so certain about what other people should do with their lives. I'm not. I don't believe we can force people do things just because there might be a benefit to "society". How about we euthanize unrepentant killers or rapists? How about we sterilize those with genetic abnormalities. Go back to my post above; people CAN disagree, including on what the criteria should be for the violation of personal liberties.
OK - so if they choose not to get vaccinated, then they lose certain rights it's that simple. If you "choose" not to drive, fine but if you choose to drive then guess what you have to do?
And BTW, choosing not to drive doesn't harm anyone but choosing not to get vaccinated does harm people and possibly kill them including me.
I'm not saying throw people in jail but seriously curtailing their freedoms to protect society as a whole is not a new concept.
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You can't do that but certain private establishments may ask for you to prove your vaccinated or ask to wear a mask still.
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Speaking of Native Americans....
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/native-americans-highest-covid-vaccination-rate-us/ (https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/native-americans-highest-covid-vaccination-rate-us/) :tup
That's only because indigenous people are unhealthy and our rates of unhealthy conditions is high. All due to the depleting of our ecological habitats.
See, they caused us to become so unhealthy by destroying our very fabric of our lives. If they did not we would likely be fine and wouldn't be worrying about it, because our mindset and faith would be on the plants, herbs, and healing traditions we used to utilize. That knowledge was lost during the assimilating.
And now we are relying on them to keep us healthy. When we were Self-Dependant enough to have our own system of healing.
Science is good, and it's a tool for us to use to understand the fabrics of this life and nature. We had this knowledge of science, yet those scientists neglected our perspective, for their own benefits and world view of science. And to use their product rather than what has been used for thousands of years.
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I think it's time for vaccine mandates and vaccine passports. Children have to get vaccinated for measles, mumps etc.. before they can enroll in school.
Nobody bats an eye when they have to have a license to drive with the whole point of making our streets safer. Nobody bitches about personal freedoms when they are not allowed to smoke in a restaurant.
This while mindset of personal freedoms and beliefs has gotten out of hand. Whatever happened to good old "personal responsibility" or doing something positive for the greater whole of society? Governors have signed laws that prohibit businesses from requiring vaccinations of employees. Whatever happened to being pro-business?
The unvaccinated pose a clear an present threat to all of society so it's time their for freedoms are curtailed. You want to go to a football game then you need to get vaccinated. Eat out? Vaccinate.
What happens when a variant jumps the vaccine and now we are all in danger again?
All those are choices, not mandates. I don't have to drive; I know plenty of people that just say no to driving. I don't have to attend the schools that require vaccinations; I know plenty of people that home school their kids, several because they don't want poison and DNA trackers pushed into their kids' bloodstreams.
I'm glad - sincerely - you're so certain about what other people should do with their lives. I'm not. I don't believe we can force people do things just because there might be a benefit to "society". How about we euthanize unrepentant killers or rapists? How about we sterilize those with genetic abnormalities. Go back to my post above; people CAN disagree, including on what the criteria should be for the violation of personal liberties.
OK - so if they choose not to get vaccinated, then they lose certain rights it's that simple. If you "choose" not to drive, fine but if you choose to drive then guess what you have to do?
And BTW, choosing not to drive doesn't harm anyone but choosing not to get vaccinated does harm people and possibly kill them including me.
I'm not saying throw people in jail but seriously curtailing their freedoms to protect society as a whole is not a new concept.
People actually don't have to have a license to drive. It's illegal not to, but the reality is, people still drive without a license or insurance.
And also, how bout we stop driving and polluting the Earth because that's obviously harming people to the point of extinction. All because we consume products made by the destruction of those peoples ecological habitats.
But since that isn't affecting you, who cares about their health and safety, right?
If they're not dying of diseases they're dying from other causes. This virus is not the only thing that kills people. Our actions kill people all the time, yet we are unaware of these situations.
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I think it's time for vaccine mandates and vaccine passports. Children have to get vaccinated for measles, mumps etc.. before they can enroll in school.
Nobody bats an eye when they have to have a license to drive with the whole point of making our streets safer. Nobody bitches about personal freedoms when they are not allowed to smoke in a restaurant.
This while mindset of personal freedoms and beliefs has gotten out of hand. Whatever happened to good old "personal responsibility" or doing something positive for the greater whole of society? Governors have signed laws that prohibit businesses from requiring vaccinations of employees. Whatever happened to being pro-business?
The unvaccinated pose a clear an present threat to all of society so it's time their for freedoms are curtailed. You want to go to a football game then you need to get vaccinated. Eat out? Vaccinate.
What happens when a variant jumps the vaccine and now we are all in danger again?
All those are choices, not mandates. I don't have to drive; I know plenty of people that just say no to driving. I don't have to attend the schools that require vaccinations; I know plenty of people that home school their kids, several because they don't want poison and DNA trackers pushed into their kids' bloodstreams.
I'm glad - sincerely - you're so certain about what other people should do with their lives. I'm not. I don't believe we can force people do things just because there might be a benefit to "society". How about we euthanize unrepentant killers or rapists? How about we sterilize those with genetic abnormalities. Go back to my post above; people CAN disagree, including on what the criteria should be for the violation of personal liberties.
OK - so if they choose not to get vaccinated, then they lose certain rights it's that simple. If you "choose" not to drive, fine but if you choose to drive then guess what you have to do?
And BTW, choosing not to drive doesn't harm anyone but choosing not to get vaccinated does harm people and possibly kill them including me.
I'm not saying throw people in jail but seriously curtailing their freedoms to protect society as a whole is not a new concept.
Look, Jingle is going to jump up my ass for this, for going "legal", but let's use the right terminology. You don't have the RIGHT to drive. You don't have the RIGHT to go to school (shit you not; education is not a fundamental right in the U.S.). Abortion says that privacy IS a fundamental right. I don't know (yet) how vaccines fit into that, but I can see a credible argument that the ability to say NO to a vaccine is a RIGHT under the U.S. Constitution, just as abortion is, and can only be limited by the standard look at fundmamental rights (compelling state interest, least restrictive means for attaining that interest, tailored narrowly to JUST that interest).
"Harm" is this made up subjective standard. Go to other threads where "not driving" is a harm when people can't vote, or can't get to the vaccination clinics. There are PLENTY of things that "harm" people, or "harm" people in different ways that we don't limit, too bad, so sad. How about we limit the insecurity that is plaguing our nation, leading to divisiveness, bigotry and worse? That's harming me. If you don't want to be harmed, don't go around people. Don't send your kids to school (there's no RIGHT to go to school). I don't mean that literally but you're doing a lot of finger pointing DEMANDING that others tailor their decisions and abridge THEIR rights for YOU.
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Anyone who tells you it's good to die for your beliefs are radicalized. In this day and age I hope no one is that willing to give up one's life for nothing.
Dude, people do that all the time. I believe in this bungee cord that it will save me, I have faith it will save me. Yet, it snaps and he dies. He died for his belief that the bungee will save him.
Us Native Americans died for our beliefs and values. We considered it a good day to die.
There are times when it is good to die.
And this is dependant on ones beliefs and values of Death. As death itself is viewed differently throughout the world.
All that you're saying is based on your own values and beliefs. That is your mindset. And not everyone has that same mindset as you.
Ben those beliefs that Native Americans died for were good reasons 200 years ago. Now, we have a better understanding and can meld both worlds. There are so many people that think the vaccine was rushed out when in fact it was worked on for decades. Sometimes you can't always go by believe but you have to by science.
I'm not forcing anyone to get it but in all honesty people who put their beliefs first need to do their homework and then respond. It's obvious that the vaccine is working and there is data to back it up.
I have no problem with increased education. I think we will get many people to - even if in secret - to put aside their vocal "beliefs" and get the vaccine if we give them data. Calling them "unhinged" and forcing them will not get it done.
I agree with this. I think if we try to compel people to vaccinate by some kind of legal mandate or putting in place some kind of penalty for refusing to vaccinate, it's only going to harden the position of the people resisting the vaccine. I think a better approach is to incentivize vaccination somehow. Now I don't know if that means limiting access to certain things only to people who can prove they've been vaccinated, or if it means we all have to carry around a vaccine status card or something like that. I know that's a huge can of worms, but why else do we document vaccinations if it's not so that the vaccinated person can be validated as having been vaccinated?
I don't want to force people to get the vaccine, but if we make getting the vaccine more attractive than NOT getting the vaccine, maybe that will help get the numbers up. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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And that's exactly what I've been saying. I just think most will not because most won't invest in the time to do so.
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Anyone who tells you it's good to die for your beliefs are radicalized. In this day and age I hope no one is that willing to give up one's life for nothing.
Dude, people do that all the time. I believe in this bungee cord that it will save me, I have faith it will save me. Yet, it snaps and he dies. He died for his belief that the bungee will save him.
Us Native Americans died for our beliefs and values. We considered it a good day to die.
There are times when it is good to die.
And this is dependant on ones beliefs and values of Death. As death itself is viewed differently throughout the world.
All that you're saying is based on your own values and beliefs. That is your mindset. And not everyone has that same mindset as you.
Ben those beliefs that Native Americans died for were good reasons 200 years ago. Now, we have a better understanding and can meld both worlds. There are so many people that think the vaccine was rushed out when in fact it was worked on for decades. Sometimes you can't always go by believe but you have to by science.
I'm not forcing anyone to get it but in all honesty people who put their beliefs first need to do their homework and then respond. It's obvious that the vaccine is working and there is data to back it up.
I have no problem with increased education. I think we will get many people to - even if in secret - to put aside their vocal "beliefs" and get the vaccine if we give them data. Calling them "unhinged" and forcing them will not get it done.
I agree with this. I think if we try to compel people to vaccinate by some kind of legal mandate or putting in place some kind of penalty for refusing to vaccinate, it's only going to harden the position of the people resisting the vaccine. I think a better approach is to incentivize vaccination somehow. Now I don't know if that means limiting access to certain things only to people who can prove they've been vaccinated, or if it means we all have to carry around a vaccine status card or something like that. I know that's a huge can of worms, but why else do we document vaccinations if it's not so that the vaccinated person can be validated as having been vaccinated?
I don't want to force people to get the vaccine, but if we make getting the vaccine more attractive than NOT getting the vaccine, maybe that will help get the numbers up. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'd be very curious from an economic standpoint what's the magic number. Meaning, if we incentivize $50, $100, whatever to those vaccinated, what's the tipping point? I have a feeling that number is not as high as we might think.
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If all it took was people wearing a mask and social distancing in public. Then that is what can be done. But people will not do that for whatever reasons, which the data is proving. Just stay away from these people, and do you. Do not go to their states, and stay away. It's why in the bible, they exiled the Lepers, because they did not want to catch leprosy, so they neglected them from partaking in their society.
Yet, Jesus visited the lepers, and wasn't like those people afraid of them to the point of exiling them. His mindset wasn't like theirs. What if he had knowledge of a certain herb, or process, that no one had knowledge about. What if this was how he did his miracles, but people just don't know the technique he used for these herbs/processes to work.
If you so desperately want to visit a state where people are not vaccinated, because you think you have the right and privilege to go to that state, then go ahead and risk catching it. Out in the real world, outside where people gather in mass numbers, you have no way to know. People will voluntarily tell you sometimes, but others are more private with their lives and will not tell you and they'll see that as an invasion of personal space. Not everyone is so telling and open about their private lives, not everyone is Forest Gump. The majority of people on Social Media are people that are very open about their private lives, to where the viewer/follower can live vicariously through their Social Media page. (It's great data on Social Structures)
It's gotten to the point where people expect you to be very open about your private life. People do get a bit upset when you don't disclose information you don't want to tell them. They think they have an entitlement to know you.
I also agree, Education is what is needed. Our entire Education System has failed the people. And now, the country is reaping what it sowed with regards to the education of it's people. And here we are with people not having the intelligence and understanding of concepts, and these people need different ways to comprehend these concepts that the "intelligent" can easily grasp and have knowledge about. Like Kristi Noem not comprehending that Native Reservations are Sovereign Nations, and do not have to follow anything the State says or does. they only follow the United States Laws and Regulations, which is why some Tribes are not legalizing cannabis.
If you visit any Native Reservation, you/the other, do not have a right and privilege to just go and do whatever on that land. Yet, people do assume they do have a right and privilege, like Kristi Noem thinks she does when the Tribes locked down and shut access to all outsiders.
There's reasons besides Health for why Natives took the vaccine. One is so they can see their families that reside in another reservation.
People have their own reasons that are unrelated to Health, or Fear of Dying of catching the virus, for taking the vaccine. If people didn't have other reasons to take the vaccine, would they still have taken it? What are the reasons for why people took the vaccine? Was it for their health and safety for other people, or was it to be able to do the things they wanted to do since before the pandemic took away their fun?
I personally think these reasons matter, if we are going to be talking about morals and concerns about the unvaccinated not wanting to take the vaccine and claiming they don't care about other peoples health and safety.
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Current vaccination rates in NY state are 55-60%, so its not the "5-10% that refuse to be vaccinated". Restrictions will be required to keep the R0 in check until that number reaches the required threshold for natural sub-unity R0 values.
It is shocking to see how many Americans are unwilling to get the vaccine.
Maybe because it's the least deadly pandemic ever, and Americans are seeing their 'elected' leaders and unelected bureaucrats pushing more and more towards totalitarianism.
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Current vaccination rates in NY state are 55-60%, so its not the "5-10% that refuse to be vaccinated". Restrictions will be required to keep the R0 in check until that number reaches the required threshold for natural sub-unity R0 values.
It is shocking to see how many Americans are unwilling to get the vaccine.
Maybe because it's the least deadly pandemic ever, and Americans are seeing their 'elected' leaders and unelected bureaucrats pushing more and more towards totalitarianism.
and you just drop that little nugget like it’s no big deal right? whatever it’s not even worth looking up how many people have died from covid-19.
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Both sides are to blame for this split. Both are being lead by extremists. Hell, the voters are becoming extremists. I feel lost in the middle.
And least deadly. That's comforting.
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It is not least deadly.
It’s not as bad as many others in history….because of how much better our medicine is. So the death toll is lower than many other pandemics BECAUSE people got vaccinated and wore masks and did all that stuff. It’s not less deadly because the virus is less deadly.
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Maybe because it's the least deadly pandemic ever, and Americans are seeing their 'elected' leaders and unelected bureaucrats pushing more and more towards totalitarianism.
Maybe. Or maybe they've been subjected to so much disinformation they no longer have the ability to tell truth from fact.
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Maybe because it's the least deadly pandemic ever, and Americans are seeing their 'elected' leaders and unelected bureaucrats pushing more and more towards totalitarianism.
Maybe. Or maybe they've been subjected to so much disinformation they no longer have the ability to tell truth from fact.
better yet... all of the above.
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Well everything except the pandemic being the least deadly. That is arse-gravy.
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Current vaccination rates in NY state are 55-60%, so its not the "5-10% that refuse to be vaccinated". Restrictions will be required to keep the R0 in check until that number reaches the required threshold for natural sub-unity R0 values.
It is shocking to see how many Americans are unwilling to get the vaccine.
Maybe because it's the least deadly pandemic ever, and Americans are seeing their 'elected' leaders and unelected bureaucrats pushing more and more towards totalitarianism.
Is the 55-60% taking into account children who are not yet eligible for vaccines? The 5-10% refusal may still be a legit number when taking into account people who legitimately can't get a vaccine.
Also, can you provide some data to say this is the least deadly pandemic?
As of now, I see 4 million deaths. It's not like the spanish flu or the black plague, but it's not some small number either. A lot of this can be attributed to science and while it was very shakey understanding things in 2020, we did have some science to help us understand things to make this less deadly to the general population (even with some fuck ups like NY/NJ using LTC facilities). This may likely go down as the biggest pandemic in our life times. Is that not enough to be important?
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Current vaccination rates in NY state are 55-60%, so its not the "5-10% that refuse to be vaccinated". Restrictions will be required to keep the R0 in check until that number reaches the required threshold for natural sub-unity R0 values.
It is shocking to see how many Americans are unwilling to get the vaccine.
Maybe because it's the least deadly pandemic ever, and Americans are seeing their 'elected' leaders and unelected bureaucrats pushing more and more towards totalitarianism.
Is the 55-60% taking into account children who are not yet eligible for vaccines? The 5-10% refusal may still be a legit number when taking into account people who legitimately can't get a vaccine.
Also, can you provide some data to say this is the least deadly pandemic?
As of now, I see 4 million deaths. It's not like the spanish flu or the black plague, but it's not some small number either. A lot of this can be attributed to science and while it was very shakey understanding things in 2020, we did have some science to help us understand things to make this less deadly to the general population (even with some fuck ups like NY/NJ using LTC facilities). This may likely go down as the biggest pandemic in our life times. Is that not enough to be important?
Do we have data for the amount of Natives lives lost to diseases during the colonization? We do not.
I doubt there is accurate data for past pandemics before the invention of Vaccines. There is no way we can get an accurate account for the deaths that occurred from past diseases and epidemics. We can only go on stories. Which is how the future will understand this current pandemic, by the stories being written by the media. This leads to why it is a big problem and concern that they are censoring the opposing perspectives, regardless if what they say is bologna.
As the story of the pandemic will be understood from how it is written.
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Since someone brought up incentives... there was a local report that a WA state lottery system set up for vaccinations resulted in a 24% increase in vax rates.
In total, the DOH estimates that between June 3 and June 22, roughly 28,500 more people received their first dose as a result of the lottery, marking a 24% increase from a scenario where the state hadn’t done the lottery at all.
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Stockholm opened up for 18+ to get vaccinated yesterday.
My son managed to book a shot on monday wich means he will hopefully get his second dose before going back to stidy at The Royal Institute of Technplogy.
That just leaves my daughter unvaccinated so far. She is 14 years old so not sure she will get one at all.
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Maybe because it's the least deadly pandemic ever, and Americans are seeing their 'elected' leaders and unelected bureaucrats pushing more and more towards totalitarianism.
Maybe. Or maybe they've been subjected to so much disinformation they no longer have the ability to tell truth from fact.
better yet... all of the above.
Yeah, I tend to think there is a lot to that. Obviously, we can't generalize and say that those factors are THE factors for everybody. There are tons of different factors for many different people. But I think the ones you mentioned and the one XJ mentioned seem to be big factors for quite a few people. And, yeah, we can nitpick the "least deadly pandemic" issue. If we are truly looking at ALL pandemics, that isn't true. But I get what you are saying--most people probably have no idea about most of the pandemics we have dealt with since the beginning of time other than the ones that are well known because of how deadly they are. So, yeah, again, while the blanket statement of "least deadly pandemic" is not technically correct, I think the point is still valid from a perception standpoint. And that is ultimately what we are talking about here--people's perceptions that lead them to not get vaccinated.
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Right now covid is sitting at #8 all time by death toll. I'd say that shows that the whole 'least deadly' comment is patently false.
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Well, respectfully, I think if you want to categorize it as "patently false," you are missing the spirit of what he is saying in favor of focusing on the technical.
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First off, based on past posts of his, he actually suscribes to such beliefs concerning the pandemic. There's no 'spirit of what he is saying' here, he has posted such sentiments time and time again. Facts are needed to fly in the face of bullshit like that. We need to call out bullshit when we see it.
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The spirit of what he is saying is also false. Being against medical measures that prevent cases of a pandemic because "its not that deadly" is like removing seatbelts and airbags from your new SUV because it already has a 5 star NCAP rating.
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Second Moderna shot for me today.... early noon, vaccine, evening, Italy vs England who knows in which conditions :lol
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Well, respectfully, I think if you want to categorize it as "patently false," you are missing the spirit of what he is saying in favor of focusing on the technical.
Curious... what do you see as the "spirit" of what Darkshade is saying?
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It could also get a whole lot more deadly, because it ain't over yet.
This thing is worldwide. That's why people who keep thinking about it in the lense of US two party politics are missing the point. It's not about anyone's politics. 4M have already died and variants are spreading in the largely unvaccinated world.
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Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.
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It could also get a whole lot more deadly, because it ain't over yet.
This thing is worldwide. That's why people who keep thinking about it in the lense of US two party politics are missing the point. It's not about anyone's politics. 4M have already died and variants are spreading in the largely unvaccinated world.
Exactly...there's 7.6 billion people on earth, and I'd gather 7 billion of them see this as the actual threat it is. Tokyo just shut down before the Olympics. That's how adults deal with this. I wish we could ignore those who deny the worldliness and deadliness of this thing, but even in their ignorance, their actions have repercussions that resound around the world.
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The spirit of what he is saying is also false. Being against medical measures that prevent cases of a pandemic because "its not that deadly" is like removing seatbelts and airbags from your new SUV because it already has a 5 star NCAP rating.
That's just as false as what Darkshade is saying, in it's own way. "Against medical measures"? What does that mean? There always has to be some cost (in the general sense of the word)/benefit analysis when assessing what might be done as a society to protect what ultimately might be a small section of that society. There also has to be some concensus on what level of risk is acceptable. "Zero tolerance" only really works when you're bullying your moral position on someone, not in real life examples like this one. We are (likely) never going to completely eradicate COVID, so what level is an acceptable and manageable risk? A year ago, it was just "not overwhelming our healthcare system". It's changed since then, that's clear, as people forgot about that, but it's not clear where it changed TO.
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That's just as false as what Darkshade is saying, in it's own way.
No it isn't. The only reason the pandemic has been as "undeadly" as it has been is because of measures like masks, self-isolation, lockdowns and travel restrictions keeping the R0 in check. IF you decide to remove those restrictions WITHOUT replacing it with an equally effective measure of reducing the transmission (like near universal vaccination), you WILL cause cases to increase and people to be hospitalised and die, same as if you take a "safe" car and remove all the safety mechanisms, more people will be more severely injured or die when those cars crash. This is is not my opinion, this is just how the virus works. You can of course have a discussion about how much death you are willing to accept as a society, but letting a virus propagate through a still majority-unvaccinated/partially vaccinated population is an extreme position that will maximse pain and suffering, and is a thoroughly counterproductive position, especially if it ends up breeding a variant that is vaccine resistant and fucks up all the progress we made so far.
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I think there are just like two words of people even within places like the US. You have the people who never changed one thing about their behavior because of the pandemic, and if they were lucky enough not to have experienced anything that would change their mind they just assume that everyone else was like them, not taking precautions or making voluntary sacrifices. A few of my in-laws are this way - they are blown away when they see family who still wear masks, they joke about "child abuse" "taking peoples kids away" when they see them wearing masks. They think the whole thing was made up, and ran its natural course, regardless of what precautions people took. Everyone who made some kind of sacrifice and even took the marginal personal risk of getting the vaccine get their efforts demeaned and devalued, of course THEY aren't part of the reason why the pandemic wasn't as bad as it could have been. Because to admit that would be to admit that they (my in-laws) are part of the reason why the pandemic has been as bad as it's going.
To me, it's ridiculous. I missed so much good stuff because of this pandemic. I missed sharing many life moments with family, and the chance to spend time with my grandfather who was in hospice. I've had a (very young, healthy) relative die of COVID, and several more family members effected and hit hard. There are close family I did not get to see except occasionally from behind a mask at all for months at a time. And then there are the mundane things we all shared: cancelled plans, putting life on hold, and so on. So to sit there and act like no one did anything, that no one's sacrifice (voluntary or otherwise) mattered would be deeply insulting if it was not so clearly rooted in total ignorance.
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That's just as false as what Darkshade is saying, in it's own way.
No it isn't. The only reason the pandemic has been as "undeadly" as it has been is because of measures like masks, self-isolation, lockdowns and travel restrictions keeping the R0 in check. IF you decide to remove those restrictions WITHOUT replacing it with an equally effective measure of reducing the transmission (like near universal vaccination), you WILL cause cases to increase and people to be hospitalised and die, same as if you take a "safe" car and remove all the safety mechanisms, more people will be more severely injured or die when those cars crash. This is is not my opinion, this is just how the virus works. You can of course have a discussion about how much death you are willing to accept as a society, but letting a virus propagate through a still majority-unvaccinated/partially vaccinated population is an extreme position that will maximse pain and suffering, and is a thoroughly counterproductive position, especially if it ends up breeding a variant that is vaccine resistant and fucks up all the progress we made so far.
I think we're talking past each other here. I'm talking about specific measures, individually, and it seems to me you're talking about them as a group. I agree that there has to be SOMETHING done, but I think there's great debate as to the exact what, and I don't think there's simply one right answer and everything else is wrong. California and Florida. Connecticut and Texas.
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Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".
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Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".
That's not a yes or no question. I am in favor of vaccines being readily available. I got mine on literally the first day I was able to in my state. My wife and three oldest kids all have them. I arranged for my parents to get theirs. I am in favor of everyone being able to make that choice for themselves. Someone in my family, close to me, has not gotten one and doesn't plan to. It is what it is. He is not deplorable, stupid, in denial, or any of those fun things that we like to throw at people that don't live their lives exactly the way we want them to.
FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.
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The question is without the vaccine and the measures we took before the vaccine, would Darkshade be able to say this was the least deadly pandemic?ever?
The obvious answer is no since the data proves that the vaccine and these measures are working.
They didn't have the technology for medication like we do today as well as the communication to get the info out there like in earlier pandemics.
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He is not deplorable, stupid, in denial, or any of those fun things that we like to throw at people that don't live their lives exactly the way we want them to.
Okay. why doesn't he plan to vaccinate then?
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He is not deplorable, stupid, in denial, or any of those fun things that we like to throw at people that don't live their lives exactly the way we want them to.
Okay. why doesn't he plan to vaccinate then?
Because he is scared of it.
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Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".
FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.
Fair, but (and on this we do not see eye-to-eye), why should someone's decision to not get vaccinated then also put my health at risk? This is what I take issue with. I think public and private institutions should have the ability to limit access to services and/or facilities for those that put others' health at risk because of their decisions / actions. If they want to put their own health at risk - hey, go for it. But don't in turn put mine at risk.
I think we need to develop quick/rapid/instant tests that are accurate for those that refuse to vaccinate. If they have an alternative, then they can get access to services/facilities.
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Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".
FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.
Fair, but (and on this we do not see eye-to-eye), why should someone's decision to not get vaccinated then also put my health at risk? This is what I take issue with. I think public and private institutions should have the ability to limit access to services and/or facilities for those that put others' health at risk because of their decisions / actions. If they want to put their own health at risk - hey, go for it. But don't in turn put mine at risk.
I think we need to develop quick/rapid/instant tests that are accurate for those that refuse to vaccinate. If they have an alternative, then they can get access to services/facilities.
This.
One person's precious freedoms shouldn't come at the cost of another's.
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He is not deplorable, stupid, in denial, or any of those fun things that we like to throw at people that don't live their lives exactly the way we want them to.
Okay. why doesn't he plan to vaccinate then?
Because he is scared of it.
I'm not sure "scared" is 100% accurate, but that's close enough. He's not against it, he gets flu shots periodically, but doesn't trust the part of science that says "we would know if there is a problem within the first six months or so...". He's being cautious. As is his right.
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Over here since the Government really got a bit complacent over the last six months, they are starting to ramp up vaccinations. But truthfully, I don't know what to think. I don't even get flu shots anymore as they were making me sick, so I'm so reluctant to even think about a COVID jab. Dunno, just don't trust it just yet.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6Fy46RWYAE7M0t?format=jpg&name=medium)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6FkBh5X0AIlhyy?format=jpg&name=medium)
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That's just as false as what Darkshade is saying, in it's own way.
No it isn't. The only reason the pandemic has been as "undeadly" as it has been is because of measures like masks, self-isolation, lockdowns and travel restrictions keeping the R0 in check. IF you decide to remove those restrictions WITHOUT replacing it with an equally effective measure of reducing the transmission (like near universal vaccination), you WILL cause cases to increase and people to be hospitalised and die, same as if you take a "safe" car and remove all the safety mechanisms, more people will be more severely injured or die when those cars crash. This is is not my opinion, this is just how the virus works. You can of course have a discussion about how much death you are willing to accept as a society, but letting a virus propagate through a still majority-unvaccinated/partially vaccinated population is an extreme position that will maximse pain and suffering, and is a thoroughly counterproductive position, especially if it ends up breeding a variant that is vaccine resistant and fucks up all the progress we made so far.
Not sure what the point of comparing car crashes to covid survival rate, when you have a 73% chance of not getting into a car accident every day, and you have a 99.7% chance of surviving covid, which you'll get once (or twice if you're unlucky) and that survival rate only goes up if you are younger than 60.
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The 'spirit' of what I was saying is that the virus survival rate is incredibly high, especially for those under the age of 60, you didn't hear or see kids and young people dropping like flies, it's why the media has never been up front on WHO has been dying from this virus.
and for those unlucky to go to the hospital, we have technology to help and medication (much of which was censored)
but mostly this virus was as deadly for some as it was because of their diet, a diet of food that was APPROVED for consumption by govt bureaucrats, including foods with sugar, processed chemicals, lard, high fructose corn syrup, ingredients you cannot pronounce without taking a second to sound it out, etc.. plus tobacco products, something that was once considered safe and healthy, that helped lower their immune systems. Many 80 and 90 year old covid patients survived and are still alive today, so age isn't even necessarily a factor in and of itself.
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I think there are just like two words of people even within places like the US. You have the people who never changed one thing about their behavior because of the pandemic, and if they were lucky enough not to have experienced anything that would change their mind they just assume that everyone else was like them, not taking precautions or making voluntary sacrifices. A few of my in-laws are this way - they are blown away when they see family who still wear masks, they joke about "child abuse" "taking peoples kids away" when they see them wearing masks. They think the whole thing was made up, and ran its natural course, regardless of what precautions people took. Everyone who made some kind of sacrifice and even took the marginal personal risk of getting the vaccine get their efforts demeaned and devalued, of course THEY aren't part of the reason why the pandemic wasn't as bad as it could have been. Because to admit that would be to admit that they (my in-laws) are part of the reason why the pandemic has been as bad as it's going.
It's as bad as it is because of disinfo coming from the entirety of the federal government early on, as well as CCP censoring doctors and scientists in 2019.
The rest unraveled from there. Thankfully, the internet has slowed the process of the US becoming a totalitarian state, a little... Thousands, maybe millions, are waking up to what's been going on lately. Joe Biden and the Federal Government want to go door to door with a list of 'bad' people, eh? Sounds eerily familiar.
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Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.
Yet (at least in the US) hospital rates are below or near pre-pandemic levels.
This, according to the untrustworthy CDC
(https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/07092021/images/hospitalizations-07092021.jpg)
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Thousands, maybe millions, are waking up to what's been going on lately. Joe Biden and the Federal Government want to go door to door with a list of 'bad' people, eh? Sounds eerily familiar.
Wait until they get their helicarriers completed!
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Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".
That's not a yes or no question. I am in favor of vaccines being readily available. I got mine on literally the first day I was able to in my state. My wife and three oldest kids all have them. I arranged for my parents to get theirs. I am in favor of everyone being able to make that choice for themselves. Someone in my family, close to me, has not gotten one and doesn't plan to. It is what it is. He is not deplorable, stupid, in denial, or any of those fun things that we like to throw at people that don't live their lives exactly the way we want them to.
FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.
I'm also not anti-vax. I don't want people getting polio, measles, small pox, etc... Those vaccines work.
I've also never told someone they shouldn't get the jab. That is something they need to discuss with their doctor and the ingredients should be well researched before you decide to put them into your body.
Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.
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Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.
Yet (at least in the US) hospital rates are below or near pre-pandemic levels.
This, according to the untrustworthy CDC
(https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/07092021/images/hospitalizations-07092021.jpg)
If they are so untrustworthy, why do you cite their information? Oh, right... because it suits your arguement.
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Thousands, maybe millions, are waking up to what's been going on lately. Joe Biden and the Federal Government want to go door to door with a list of 'bad' people, eh? Sounds eerily familiar.
Wait until they get their helicarriers completed!
I believe they intend to escape to Mars, and that's not fictional.
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Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.
*awaits Stads to chime in chastising for ad-hominem attacks*
:corn
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Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.
Yet (at least in the US) hospital rates are below or near pre-pandemic levels.
This, according to the untrustworthy CDC
(https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/07092021/images/hospitalizations-07092021.jpg)
So you are showing the vaccines work? I mean, in the US 48% of the population is fully vaxxed. That's not even close to the rest of the world.
And what's the point of the twitter spamming of the same messages? Makes me not think you are doing this:
It's as bad as it is because of disinfo
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Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.
Yet (at least in the US) hospital rates are below or near pre-pandemic levels.
This, according to the untrustworthy CDC
(https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/07092021/images/hospitalizations-07092021.jpg)
If they are so untrustworthy, why do you cite their information? Oh, right... because it suits your arguement.
Because it shows the hypocrisy of the whole thing. If we're below pre-pandemic hospitalization levels, why the increased push for the vaccine?
Essentially, the pandemic ended June 2020 (flatten the curve. Yes, 2020) yet here we are.
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Thousands, maybe millions, are waking up to what's been going on lately. Joe Biden and the Federal Government want to go door to door with a list of 'bad' people, eh? Sounds eerily familiar.
Wait until they get their helicarriers completed!
I believe they intend to escape to Mars, and that's not fictional.
Who are "they"? Hydra? The Cabal? The Blacklist? The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen?
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They're called "twitter bots" and the tech companies are in lock step with the US federal government and the UN.
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Thousands, maybe millions, are waking up to what's been going on lately. Joe Biden and the Federal Government want to go door to door with a list of 'bad' people, eh? Sounds eerily familiar.
Wait until they get their helicarriers completed!
I believe they intend to escape to Mars, and that's not fictional.
Who are "they"? Hydra? The Cabal? The Blacklist? The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen?
I can see you do not wish to engage with me on any serious level.
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Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.
Yet (at least in the US) hospital rates are below or near pre-pandemic levels.
This, according to the untrustworthy CDC
(https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/07092021/images/hospitalizations-07092021.jpg)
If they are so untrustworthy, why do you cite their information? Oh, right... because it suits your arguement.
Because it shows the hypocrisy of the whole thing. If we're below pre-pandemic hospitalization levels, why the increased push for the vaccine?
Essentially, the pandemic ended June 2020 (flatten the curve. Yes, 2020) yet here we are.
You know what a correlation is, right? How do you think the US got to pre-pandemic hospitalization levels.
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Keep in mind that chart is for cases, not deaths, which have significantly dropped, long before any vaccine roll outs.
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Thousands, maybe millions, are waking up to what's been going on lately. Joe Biden and the Federal Government want to go door to door with a list of 'bad' people, eh? Sounds eerily familiar.
Wait until they get their helicarriers completed!
I believe they intend to escape to Mars, and that's not fictional.
Who are "they"? Hydra? The Cabal? The Blacklist? The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen?
I can see you do not wish to engage with me on any serious level.
I'm curious how I take anyone seriously who thinks "Twitter bots" that are colluding with the US Federal Government and the UN are "intending to escape to Mars". If you believe that, then is it far fetched to think you believe in a secret Cabal?
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:corn
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Speaking of misinformation ....
Keep in mind that chart is for cases, not deaths, which have significantly dropped, long before any vaccine roll outs.
Fact: First Covid-19 Vaccine Given to U.S. Public .... December 14, 2020
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Speaking of misinformation ....
Keep in mind that chart is for cases, not deaths, which have significantly dropped, long before any vaccine roll outs.
Fact: First Covid-19 Vaccine Given to U.S. Public .... December 14, 2020
And case spikes lead death spikes by a month as the disease runs its course
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Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.
Yet (at least in the US) hospital rates are below or near pre-pandemic levels.
This, according to the untrustworthy CDC
(https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/07092021/images/hospitalizations-07092021.jpg)
If they are so untrustworthy, why do you cite their information? Oh, right... because it suits your arguement.
Because it shows the hypocrisy of the whole thing. If we're below pre-pandemic hospitalization levels, why the increased push for the vaccine?
Essentially, the pandemic ended June 2020 (flatten the curve. Yes, 2020) yet here we are.
I don't think you understand how virus's work then. The unvaccinated will allow the virus to continue to mutate and potentally reverse the posiitive effects of the vaccines. It could make this similar to the flu and I don't think anyone wants to get to the point where we consistently need boosters to keep the at risk people from dying.
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Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".
FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.
Fair, but (and on this we do not see eye-to-eye), why should someone's decision to not get vaccinated then also put my health at risk? This is what I take issue with. I think public and private institutions should have the ability to limit access to services and/or facilities for those that put others' health at risk because of their decisions / actions. If they want to put their own health at risk - hey, go for it. But don't in turn put mine at risk.
I think we need to develop quick/rapid/instant tests that are accurate for those that refuse to vaccinate. If they have an alternative, then they can get access to services/facilities.
Why? Because you have no "right" to a zero-risk existence. That's the fallacy. You're at risk every single day based on the acts/omissions/decisions of others. Some obvious and direct, others not so obvious and more consequential. No rights are absolute; in a democratic society, rights are relative, relative to those rights of those around you. I don't have the right to kill you... unless you abuse my right to privacy. You have the right to free speech... unless you abuse my right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness (you cannot slander/libel me). All rights have some level of compromise as they butt against someone else's right, and so here with the added proviso that you arguably don't have the "right" that is being compromised to begin with. I've often suggested that when having this conversation, insert "abortion" in with "vaccine" because the premise is the same, the rights in question are the same, and the analysis is the same.
We KNOW that an abortion - by an individual woman - has societal impacts. There is cost, there is impact on things like crime, etc. But do we MANDATE abortions? Absolutely not, and when legislature gets uppity in terms of putting any framework around abortion, WE get uppity (myself included). All on the premise that a woman's rights to privacy are sacrosanct, regardless of the impact to others or society.
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Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".
FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.
Fair, but (and on this we do not see eye-to-eye), why should someone's decision to not get vaccinated then also put my health at risk? This is what I take issue with. I think public and private institutions should have the ability to limit access to services and/or facilities for those that put others' health at risk because of their decisions / actions. If they want to put their own health at risk - hey, go for it. But don't in turn put mine at risk.
I think we need to develop quick/rapid/instant tests that are accurate for those that refuse to vaccinate. If they have an alternative, then they can get access to services/facilities.
This.
One person's precious freedoms shouldn't come at the cost of another's.
And yet they do, every single day, in a multitude of ways. It's actually nothing new.
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Keep in mind that chart is for cases, not deaths, which have significantly dropped, long before any vaccine roll outs.
No they didn't, they dropped exactly the same time (OK maybe about a few weeks after as death's lag infections) as the vaccines started being admined at the end of December/beginning of January. It's a very easy to see graph, looks almost like the infections.
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Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.
I'll be honest; I'm not always down with everything you say (and I'll cop to not always understanding it), but on this you're getting warmer. There are a LOT of assumptions in today's intellectual market, and while that's not bad in and of itself, when it's coupled with the judgement and the de rigeuer partisan ad hominem attacks that invariably go along with it ("deplorable" "radical", "unhinged", "failed") it chills an important essence of what was, at least philosophically, supposed to be an integral part of the American form of democracy.
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Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.
*awaits Stads to chime in chastising for ad-hominem attacks*
:corn
See above (and posted before I saw your post).
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Indeed. The current vaccination rates worldwide are 1/4 with one dose, less than 13% fully vaccinated. Variants will breed in the infected population and do not care about international borders.
Yet (at least in the US) hospital rates are below or near pre-pandemic levels.
This, according to the untrustworthy CDC
(https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/07092021/images/hospitalizations-07092021.jpg)
If they are so untrustworthy, why do you cite their information? Oh, right... because it suits your arguement.
Because it shows the hypocrisy of the whole thing. If we're below pre-pandemic hospitalization levels, why the increased push for the vaccine?
Essentially, the pandemic ended June 2020 (flatten the curve. Yes, 2020) yet here we are.
You know what a correlation is, right? How do you think the US got to pre-pandemic hospitalization levels.
Hearing you argue "correlation" makes me feel like the best dad on the planet. ;) :) :) :)
As I said above, I'm not in on a lot of what Darkshade is saying - the conspiracy side of things escapes me and Mars is, well, Mars - but what's the issue with the tweets? It's pretty clear that BOTH SIDES are playing whatever game they need to play to get their point across. Disinformation knows no partisan, ideological boundary. That's an important point regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum.
And here's the point: if the "I'm not getting vaccinated!" crowd is somehow "polluted" by the mis- and dis-information out there, why are the "we should ALL be vaccinated NOW!" crowd somehow immune, even if it's a matter of degree? Why does the focus on these issues - falsehoods, conspiracies - always seem to flow along party/ideological lines?
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This thread never fails to deliver.
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This thread never fails to deliver.
Agreed.
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Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.
I'll be honest; I'm not always down with everything you say (and I'll cop to not always understanding it), but on this you're getting warmer. There are a LOT of assumptions in today's intellectual market, and while that's not bad in and of itself, when it's coupled with the judgement and the de rigeuer partisan ad hominem attacks that invariably go along with it ("deplorable" "radical", "unhinged", "failed") it chills an important essence of what was, at least philosophically, supposed to be an integral part of the American form of democracy.
It is quite interesting to me that you so regularly choose to take the position of defending a post like this that is full of fallacious and false information just because you can glean a little kernel from it and use that to dangle some form of "I'm right about something you all don't see!" over the heads of everyone else. You're a smart guy, but is feeling intellectually one-step ahead of the rest of the forums at all times really that important to you?
I've seen you respond to several interesting, thoughtful posts on this forum (several of them authored by yours truly) by picking out a sentence or two you don't like and using that as an excuse to rationalize throwing out the entirety of someone else's point. Here you quote a post where 3/4ths of the ideas articulated are completely false, and respond with "you're getting warmer, here's how you're right about why everyone else here is being unreasonable!"
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Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.
I'll be honest; I'm not always down with everything you say (and I'll cop to not always understanding it), but on this you're getting warmer. There are a LOT of assumptions in today's intellectual market, and while that's not bad in and of itself, when it's coupled with the judgement and the de rigeuer partisan ad hominem attacks that invariably go along with it ("deplorable" "radical", "unhinged", "failed") it chills an important essence of what was, at least philosophically, supposed to be an integral part of the American form of democracy.
It is quite interesting to me that you so regularly choose to take the position of defending a post like this that is full of fallacious and false information just because you can glean a little kernel from it and use that to dangle some form of "I'm right about something you all don't see!" over the heads of everyone else. You're a smart guy, but is feeling intellectually one-step ahead of the rest of the forums at all times really that important to you?
I've seen you respond to several interesting, thoughtful posts on this forum (several of them authored by yours truly) by picking out a sentence or two you don't like and using that as an excuse to rationalize throwing out the entirety of someone else's point. Here you quote a post where 3/4ths of the ideas articulated are completely false, and respond with "you're getting warmer, here's how you're right about why everyone else here is being unreasonable!"
Stop. Not "defending" anything, and I'm not "throwing out" anything. Jingle, Cram, and Lonestar do not need more stats from me to make their point. For fuck's sake, read what I wrote about assumptions. That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. DON'T ASSUME YOU KNOW WHAT MY POSITION IS BECAUSE I POINT OUT ONE THING.
I am pro-vax (up to the point of forcing people to take them). I am anti-conspiracy theory. I can't say that enough, and I said it in that post. I am also, first and foremost, against the sort of partisan "you're dumb" back and forth that, supposedly, "delivers". Let's be able to talk about ALL aspects of this without a ton of presupposition. I did not in any way say that the REST of his position is "warmer" because he got close on one thing. I said he's getting warm because THAT point had some truth. Why not look at it that the dude is getting POUNDED by you all - and I threw him a bone, fair is fair. Why are some of you so scared to acknowledge that it's not a matter of "100% right side of history! and 100% bat-shit turbo crazy!" We're ALLOWED to disagree with nuance.
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And here's the point: if the "I'm not getting vaccinated!" crowd is somehow "polluted" by the mis- and dis-information out there, why are the "we should ALL be vaccinated NOW!" crowd somehow immune, even if it's a matter of degree? Why does the focus on these issues - falsehoods, conspiracies - always seem to flow along party/ideological lines?
There's a difference between forming your opinion on what you see on social media vs. what the data shows and it's hard to argue against the data but very easy to see how someone's claims are polluted when they make little sense when you look at what they are basing their thoughts on. I don't know why this happens to also fall along party lines, that's very concerning to me, but it also follows along education levels too which makes more sense.
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They didn't have the technology for medication like we do today as well as the communication to get the info out there like in earlier pandemics.
People also weren't as connected and united in communication as much as we are today. People did not fly all over and make it easier to spread those Virus.
A lot of why Natives caught these bad diseases was because they were introduced to vectors. They were forced to go to these places that were infested with the diseases. They were fine until these people came and brought their nasty unsanitary bodies from the contagious ships.
Our medicine was herbs and plants, we ate these because they had properties for our bodies that kept us in good shape. We knew not to overindulge in food. We had techniques to utilize the healing properties of these plants. That is Our "Technology for Medication". So who are you to say we didn't have "Technology for Medication". What if our evidence was destroyed and burned and is now in the ruins of the destroyed cities?
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Keep in mind that chart is for cases, not deaths, which have significantly dropped, long before any vaccine roll outs.
No they didn't.
(https://i.imgur.com/9OYFrVa.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/KPXkXUn.png)
Data taken from here: https://covid.ourworldindata.org/data/owid-covid-data.csv
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Why? Because you have no "right" to a zero-risk existence. That's the fallacy. You're at risk every single day based on the acts/omissions/decisions of others. Some obvious and direct, others not so obvious and more consequential.
As someone who has both a child and a parent who are in higher risk categories, I'm totally aware of this. So how am I supposed to interact with a guy like darkshade in a way that respects the solemn "American principles" you have invoked? Seems to me like my only answer would be to stay as far away from possible from people like him. Just as I have had to do with my inlaws who must subscribe to the same alternative news sources. Sorry, but you don't get to say that people need to meet each other in the middle under any other conditions but compromise. Practically speaking, there is no "middle" if there is no compromise. There are just two sides that ignore eachother and call eachother crazy. That is where you personally are totally off the mark in your quest to uncover some kind of principle in darkshade's posts here. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND WITH PEOPLE WHO WILL NOT COMPROMISE. Why not ask darkshade what he is willing to do in order to help combat COVID? @darkshade, if I promise not to ask you about whether you got your little shot yet, what will you promise to do for me and others who are worried about the spread of this pandemic in our communities?
Suddenly now it makes sense why we totally dismiss and disassociate from those we disagree with in this country.
darkshade has continuously hammered on the idea of totalitarianism yet his whole view on this subject stems from the idea that COVID only kills a "minority of minorities". Ok, so? That's still significant. And I'm in with that minority. Does that mean I am to expect nothing from my society and my nation because "the majority" will be fine? Sorry, that is way closer to some kind of totalitarianism than ANY mask mandate or other sort of emergency regulations. You can invoke "American values" all you want but the idea that we only take actions and plan around the majority and any inconvenience for the sake of the minority is "tyranny" is an idea that would have more currency in a place such as 1960s China.
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Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.
I'll be honest; I'm not always down with everything you say (and I'll cop to not always understanding it), but on this you're getting warmer. There are a LOT of assumptions in today's intellectual market, and while that's not bad in and of itself, when it's coupled with the judgement and the de rigeuer partisan ad hominem attacks that invariably go along with it ("deplorable" "radical", "unhinged", "failed") it chills an important essence of what was, at least philosophically, supposed to be an integral part of the American form of democracy.
It is quite interesting to me that you so regularly choose to take the position of defending a post like this that is full of fallacious and false information just because you can glean a little kernel from it and use that to dangle some form of "I'm right about something you all don't see!" over the heads of everyone else. You're a smart guy, but is feeling intellectually one-step ahead of the rest of the forums at all times really that important to you?
I've seen you respond to several interesting, thoughtful posts on this forum (several of them authored by yours truly) by picking out a sentence or two you don't like and using that as an excuse to rationalize throwing out the entirety of someone else's point. Here you quote a post where 3/4ths of the ideas articulated are completely false, and respond with "you're getting warmer, here's how you're right about why everyone else here is being unreasonable!"
Stop. Not "defending" anything, and I'm not "throwing out" anything. Jingle, Cram, and Lonestar do not need more stats from me to make their point. For fuck's sake, read what I wrote about assumptions. That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. DON'T ASSUME YOU KNOW WHAT MY POSITION IS BECAUSE I POINT OUT ONE THING.
I am pro-vax (up to the point of forcing people to take them). I am anti-conspiracy theory. I can't say that enough, and I said it in that post. I am also, first and foremost, against the sort of partisan "you're dumb" back and forth that, supposedly, "delivers". Let's be able to talk about ALL aspects of this without a ton of presupposition. I did not in any way say that the REST of his position is "warmer" because he got close on one thing. I said he's getting warm because THAT point had some truth. Why not look at it that the dude is getting POUNDED by you all - and I threw him a bone, fair is fair. Why are some of you so scared to acknowledge that it's not a matter of "100% right side of history! and 100% bat-shit turbo crazy!" We're ALLOWED to disagree with nuance.
See my above post. Your entire objective with defending darkshade is completely fallacious. There is no "middle ground" and "mutual acceptance" if there is no compromise. All we can do is disagree if both sides are unwilling to change ANY of their behaviors as part of a greater commitment.
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Keep in mind that chart is for cases, not deaths, which have significantly dropped, long before any vaccine roll outs.
No they didn't.
(https://i.imgur.com/9OYFrVa.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/KPXkXUn.png)
Data taken from here: https://covid.ourworldindata.org/data/owid-covid-data.csv
The data proves we are out of the pandemic, and those not vaccinated don't necessarily need it. This doesn't account for those with antibodies.
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Hard to take darkshade serious when he calls Dr. Fauci a "Failed Dr." No one that fails get put into the position he is in now and what he has achieved over his medical career.
Honestly trying to gauge what is needed with an ever changing virus is like a weatherman predicting the weather. It's unpredictable. People like darkshade, in their minds, he failed. Fits their narrative.
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And here's the point: if the "I'm not getting vaccinated!" crowd is somehow "polluted" by the mis- and dis-information out there, why are the "we should ALL be vaccinated NOW!" crowd somehow immune, even if it's a matter of degree? Why does the focus on these issues - falsehoods, conspiracies - always seem to flow along party/ideological lines?
There's a difference between forming your opinion on what you see on social media vs. what the data shows and it's hard to argue against the data but very easy to see how someone's claims are polluted when they make little sense when you look at what they are basing their thoughts on. I don't know why this happens to also fall along party lines, that's very concerning to me, but it also follows along education levels too which makes more sense.
I don't disagree with that at all. And the data is pretty clear. But there are other aspects to this that transcend vaccines, and that transcend that hard data. Again, Florida and California, Texas and Connecticut. They attacked this very differently, and yet have results that are if not identical then at least consistent. I don't see this as strictly about data and graphs.
Marc, it falls on educational lines and economic lines far more than political lines (the "I can predict how you voted by whether you're vaccinated" line of reasoning that was discussed a while ago notwithstanding). There was an article in the Times that talked about the educational impacts of COVID and it focused heavily on economic and racial lines. Thankfully, they avoided the typical "bipartisan" excuse. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/12/briefing/remote-learning-covid.html)
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Hard to take darkshade serious when he calls Dr. Fauci a "Failed Dr."
https://www.aier.org/article/fauci-was-duplicitous-on-the-aids-epidemic-too/ (https://www.aier.org/article/fauci-was-duplicitous-on-the-aids-epidemic-too/)
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/whitewashing-aids-history_b_4762295 (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/whitewashing-aids-history_b_4762295)
https://iotwreport.com/fauci-authorized-aids-vaccine-experiments-on-mentally-disabled-foster-children/ (https://iotwreport.com/fauci-authorized-aids-vaccine-experiments-on-mentally-disabled-foster-children/)
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Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.
I'll be honest; I'm not always down with everything you say (and I'll cop to not always understanding it), but on this you're getting warmer. There are a LOT of assumptions in today's intellectual market, and while that's not bad in and of itself, when it's coupled with the judgement and the de rigeuer partisan ad hominem attacks that invariably go along with it ("deplorable" "radical", "unhinged", "failed") it chills an important essence of what was, at least philosophically, supposed to be an integral part of the American form of democracy.
It is quite interesting to me that you so regularly choose to take the position of defending a post like this that is full of fallacious and false information just because you can glean a little kernel from it and use that to dangle some form of "I'm right about something you all don't see!" over the heads of everyone else. You're a smart guy, but is feeling intellectually one-step ahead of the rest of the forums at all times really that important to you?
I've seen you respond to several interesting, thoughtful posts on this forum (several of them authored by yours truly) by picking out a sentence or two you don't like and using that as an excuse to rationalize throwing out the entirety of someone else's point. Here you quote a post where 3/4ths of the ideas articulated are completely false, and respond with "you're getting warmer, here's how you're right about why everyone else here is being unreasonable!"
Stop. Not "defending" anything, and I'm not "throwing out" anything. Jingle, Cram, and Lonestar do not need more stats from me to make their point. For fuck's sake, read what I wrote about assumptions. That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. DON'T ASSUME YOU KNOW WHAT MY POSITION IS BECAUSE I POINT OUT ONE THING.
I am pro-vax (up to the point of forcing people to take them). I am anti-conspiracy theory. I can't say that enough, and I said it in that post. I am also, first and foremost, against the sort of partisan "you're dumb" back and forth that, supposedly, "delivers". Let's be able to talk about ALL aspects of this without a ton of presupposition. I did not in any way say that the REST of his position is "warmer" because he got close on one thing. I said he's getting warm because THAT point had some truth. Why not look at it that the dude is getting POUNDED by you all - and I threw him a bone, fair is fair. Why are some of you so scared to acknowledge that it's not a matter of "100% right side of history! and 100% bat-shit turbo crazy!" We're ALLOWED to disagree with nuance.
See my above post. Your entire objective with defending darkshade is completely fallacious. There is no "middle ground" and "mutual acceptance" if there is no compromise. All we can do is disagree if both sides are unwilling to change ANY of their behaviors as part of a greater commitment.
Greater commitment to what exactly?
Getting people to change mindsets and how they think about things totally reminds me of "Kill the Indian, save the man."
Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".
FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.
Fair, but (and on this we do not see eye-to-eye), why should someone's decision to not get vaccinated then also put my health at risk? This is what I take issue with. I think public and private institutions should have the ability to limit access to services and/or facilities for those that put others' health at risk because of their decisions / actions. If they want to put their own health at risk - hey, go for it. But don't in turn put mine at risk.
I think we need to develop quick/rapid/instant tests that are accurate for those that refuse to vaccinate. If they have an alternative, then they can get access to services/facilities.
Why? Because you have no "right" to a zero-risk existence. That's the fallacy. You're at risk every single day based on the acts/omissions/decisions of others. Some obvious and direct, others not so obvious and more consequential. No rights are absolute; in a democratic society, rights are relative, relative to those rights of those around you. I don't have the right to kill you... unless you abuse my right to privacy. You have the right to free speech... unless you abuse my right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness (you cannot slander/libel me). All rights have some level of compromise as they butt against someone else's right, and so here with the added proviso that you arguably don't have the "right" that is being compromised to begin with. I've often suggested that when having this conversation, insert "abortion" in with "vaccine" because the premise is the same, the rights in question are the same, and the analysis is the same.
We KNOW that an abortion - by an individual woman - has societal impacts. There is cost, there is impact on things like crime, etc. But do we MANDATE abortions? Absolutely not, and when legislature gets uppity in terms of putting any framework around abortion, WE get uppity (myself included). All on the premise that a woman's rights to privacy are sacrosanct, regardless of the impact to others or society.
To add an example to how others decisions affect our health everyday. All you need to do is look at the decisions made by these companies that are causing toxicity to us humans. Look at how much pollution is in a major city, compared to a rural area.
Honestly, these big cities are too compact, health problems are causes of this condition and environment. It's unhealthy, and the only way people see a better life if to leave those cities. You have people wanting to live off the grid, away from this because they see it as unhealthy and sickening.
You realize how infested and unsanitary cities are? Those actions of every homeless person peeing on the side, the exhaust fumes from the many cars and busses that spread those chemicals that are harmful to the air into a crowd of peoples lungs.
These actions of driving in a congested city, rather than biking, are causing many Health Issues to those whom walk the streets. Yet, they're unaware of it and see no harm. Because it's not immediate harm.
It's still killing you, and other things are still killing you. We are actually dying a little every day.
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Keep in mind that chart is for cases, not deaths, which have significantly dropped, long before any vaccine roll outs.
No they didn't.
(https://i.imgur.com/9OYFrVa.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/KPXkXUn.png)
Data taken from here: https://covid.ourworldindata.org/data/owid-covid-data.csv
The data proves we are out of the pandemic, and those not vaccinated don't necessarily need it. This doesn't account for those with antibodies.
See, the correct response there would be "Oh it seems like my previous statement was a lie/false. I apologise."
In any case:
1. Cases are exponentially growing again in multiple countries with similar vaccine rates, and you can see an uptick in cases on the first graph in the USA as well, so to declare the pandemic over would be exceedingly premature.
2. While there is promising data to suggest that antibody protection post COVID is decent (see: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9) variants could present a problem, as very little of the US number of cases were due to the more problematic delta variant, and additionally the total confirmed cases is less than 10% of the US population, which even assuming there is no overlap between infected and vaccinated (a pretty rubbish assumption), it still does not raise the protected population to the percentages required for herd immunity to kick in.
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:lol
We really need a dumpster fire emote.
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And here's the point: if the "I'm not getting vaccinated!" crowd is somehow "polluted" by the mis- and dis-information out there, why are the "we should ALL be vaccinated NOW!" crowd somehow immune, even if it's a matter of degree? Why does the focus on these issues - falsehoods, conspiracies - always seem to flow along party/ideological lines?
There's a difference between forming your opinion on what you see on social media vs. what the data shows and it's hard to argue against the data but very easy to see how someone's claims are polluted when they make little sense when you look at what they are basing their thoughts on. I don't know why this happens to also fall along party lines, that's very concerning to me, but it also follows along education levels too which makes more sense.
I don't disagree with that at all. And the data is pretty clear. But there are other aspects to this that transcend vaccines, and that transcend that hard data. Again, Florida and California, Texas and Connecticut. They attacked this very differently, and yet have results that are if not identical then at least consistent. I don't see this as strictly about data and graphs.
Today's discussion hasn't really been about lockdowns so the comparisons of how states handled it, to me at least, wasn't part of my thought process. I think there's still a lot of debate about the right and wrong ways to handle covid. I'm not sure I know the answers either.
NJ, for example, was one of the worst states in terms of infections/deaths and had some of the strictest restrictions. Some of it might be explainable, as the state was hit early before there was mass testing and too many unknowns at the time on how to help people with infections, and they had their mistake of putting covid patients into LTC facilities. Also the most densely populated state so people in close quarters are very likely to spread. So while one can say, the restrictions helped make the numbers not be as bad as they could be, they were still so bad, that maybe the restrictions hurt more than they helped. I don't know. There may likely never be data that shows that to be the case. However, what we do have data on is how the vaccines work. NJ is one of the top states for vaccinations and we've actually seen some days of 0 deaths. NJ has been fully opened and things are normal here. While I don't think I will ever know how our governence truly affected the outcomes, I know for a fact as of today, the vaccinations are why we are here.
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As a point of comparison, Sweden had much high numbers of cases and case rates compared to its neighbour Denmark in spite of a much lower nationwide population density. And Sweden basically had very lax restrictions for the first 50-70% of the pandemic. They only started to lock down harder come Winter, and even then it wasn't that restricted.
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Hard to take darkshade serious when he calls Dr. Fauci a "Failed Dr."
https://www.aier.org/article/fauci-was-duplicitous-on-the-aids-epidemic-too/ (https://www.aier.org/article/fauci-was-duplicitous-on-the-aids-epidemic-too/)
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/whitewashing-aids-history_b_4762295 (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/whitewashing-aids-history_b_4762295)
https://iotwreport.com/fauci-authorized-aids-vaccine-experiments-on-mentally-disabled-foster-children/ (https://iotwreport.com/fauci-authorized-aids-vaccine-experiments-on-mentally-disabled-foster-children/)
Sure. If it was all true he'd still be in the position he's in today? I think not. Think about it. If he really had unauthorized testing would he still be in the position he was today?
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This thread never fails to deliver.
This thread is a virus.
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This thread never fails to deliver.
This thread is a virus.
100% :lol
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As a point of comparison, Sweden had much high numbers of cases and case rates compared to its neighbour Denmark in spite of a much lower nationwide population density. And Sweden basically had very lax restrictions for the first 50-70% of the pandemic. They only started to lock down harder come Winter, and even then it wasn't that restricted.
Also, another point of comparison and this relates to Delta. India really didn't have a covid problem at all in 2020. A lot of thought was because the people might have had some natural immunity. But eventually, a mutation got them, the delta variant. THIS is a really good data point to show how you aren't as safe as you think you may be just because you've gone this far without issues (you, as in general you, not anyone specific) and why vaccination makes sense even if you are healthy and young.
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This thread never fails to deliver.
This thread is a virus.
100% :lol
I'd like to respond to some of these comments but I just don't know where to start. :omg:
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Join the shit show. Jump on in.
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Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".
FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.
Fair, but (and on this we do not see eye-to-eye), why should someone's decision to not get vaccinated then also put my health at risk? This is what I take issue with. I think public and private institutions should have the ability to limit access to services and/or facilities for those that put others' health at risk because of their decisions / actions. If they want to put their own health at risk - hey, go for it. But don't in turn put mine at risk.
I think we need to develop quick/rapid/instant tests that are accurate for those that refuse to vaccinate. If they have an alternative, then they can get access to services/facilities.
Why? Because you have no "right" to a zero-risk existence. That's the fallacy. You're at risk every single day based on the acts/omissions/decisions of others. Some obvious and direct, others not so obvious and more consequential. No rights are absolute; in a democratic society, rights are relative, relative to those rights of those around you. I don't have the right to kill you... unless you abuse my right to privacy. You have the right to free speech... unless you abuse my right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness (you cannot slander/libel me). All rights have some level of compromise as they butt against someone else's right, and so here with the added proviso that you arguably don't have the "right" that is being compromised to begin with. I've often suggested that when having this conversation, insert "abortion" in with "vaccine" because the premise is the same, the rights in question are the same, and the analysis is the same.
We KNOW that an abortion - by an individual woman - has societal impacts. There is cost, there is impact on things like crime, etc. But do we MANDATE abortions? Absolutely not, and when legislature gets uppity in terms of putting any framework around abortion, WE get uppity (myself included). All on the premise that a woman's rights to privacy are sacrosanct, regardless of the impact to others or society.
Similarly, people have no "right" to go see a concert, or a sporting event, or crossing a border, or <insert pretty much anything>. So, if those rights are removed for whatever reason, then my response is 'suck-it-up-buttercup'. We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to smoke on a plane was removed, or smoke indoors. We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to drive while impaired was removed. We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to carry 4oz bottles of liquid on a plane was removed. So if a company or gov't wants to limit "rights" because of vaccination or COVID status, I don't see where that is out of line.
Ironic you chose abortion as your analogy, because some States essentially MANDATE no-abortion, regardless of the impact to the individual.
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Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.
*awaits Stads to chime in chastising for ad-hominem attacks*
:corn
See above (and posted before I saw your post).
Right on cue. You're consistent if nothing else. ;D ;) :tup
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The data proves we are out of the pandemic, and those not vaccinated don't necessarily need it. This doesn't account for those with antibodies.
Not sure why I'm trying to educate you, but here goes. Data trends don't prove anything. They only reveal patterns. The "Pandemic" is not solely a reflection of case counts in the United States. Do you think the virus knows about boundaries? Do you think they need to clear customs before coming into the US? Only the ignorant or arrogant could think that this chart "proves we are out of the pandemic". If you were to look at this chart in the timeframe of 2016-2019, would your conclusion then be "we'll never experience a pandemic"?.
Also, anti-bodies =/= immunity. In fact, anti-bodies resulting from infection are weaker and shorter lasting than the antibodies that vaccines teach our body to develop.
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Why? Because you have no "right" to a zero-risk existence. That's the fallacy. You're at risk every single day based on the acts/omissions/decisions of others. Some obvious and direct, others not so obvious and more consequential.
As someone who has both a child and a parent who are in higher risk categories, I'm totally aware of this. So how am I supposed to interact with a guy like darkshade in a way that respects the solemn "American principles" you have invoked? Seems to me like my only answer would be to stay as far away from possible from people like him. Just as I have had to do with my inlaws who must subscribe to the same alternative news sources. Sorry, but you don't get to say that people need to meet each other in the middle under any other conditions but compromise. Practically speaking, there is no "middle" if there is no compromise. There are just two sides that ignore eachother and call eachother crazy. That is where you personally are totally off the mark in your quest to uncover some kind of principle in darkshade's posts here. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND WITH PEOPLE WHO WILL NOT COMPROMISE. Why not ask darkshade what he is willing to do in order to help combat COVID? @darkshade, if I promise not to ask you about whether you got your little shot yet, what will you promise to do for me and others who are worried about the spread of this pandemic in our communities?
Well, I get to say whatever I want as long as I don't yell "Fire" in a crowded theater or call you an embezzler to your boss. :) You're preaching to the choir here with respect to "compromise", so I'm not sure what you're asking/telling me, other than you're not willing to take the first step, I guess. You can ask Darkshade whatever you want, he's here. I would just advise both of you to recognize that "compromise" includes pain; "compromise" doesn't mean "forcing the other guy to do what you want".
I'm with you, Skeever; I have a daughter in college and a 13-year-old on the spectrum who is in middle school. He's good about certain aspects of the COVID protection scheme - he wears his mask like a trooper - but not so great about others - he struggles with personal space. My other stepson has a four-year-old and is expecting his second. I wholly understand the dilemma that you face. I don't know that it materially changes anything.
Even with what you say, though, about compromise, the path to getting "them" to modify their position doesn't start with "you fucking idiot".
Suddenly now it makes sense why we totally dismiss and disassociate from those we disagree with in this country.
darkshade has continuously hammered on the idea of totalitarianism yet his whole view on this subject stems from the idea that COVID only kills a "minority of minorities". Ok, so? That's still significant. And I'm in with that minority. Does that mean I am to expect nothing from my society and my nation because "the majority" will be fine? Sorry, that is way closer to some kind of totalitarianism than ANY mask mandate or other sort of emergency regulations. You can invoke "American values" all you want but the idea that we only take actions and plan around the majority and any inconvenience for the sake of the minority is "tyranny" is an idea that would have more currency in a place such as 1960s China.
And what about "your" position (in quotes, because I don't mean you, Skeever, but the "us" in the "us vs. them"). Can you see ANY reason or aspect that might be viewed as skeptically? One of the aspects of negation - of compromise - is being tolerant, in putting yourself in the other party's shoes, even if you're NOT there, and find their position untenable. I hear you on the "minority" discussion; but what are we (assuming I'm part of the "us") going to offer/give in order to get what we really want?
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Interesting how some people assume what your views are based on you questioning the government, media, un-elected bureaucrats, failed doctors like Fauci, and billionaire college drop outs, over an experimental drug that is one step short of being forced onto the general public, when the general public has not been at risk with this virus, only a small minority, of which an even smaller minority have succumbed to the virus.
I'll be honest; I'm not always down with everything you say (and I'll cop to not always understanding it), but on this you're getting warmer. There are a LOT of assumptions in today's intellectual market, and while that's not bad in and of itself, when it's coupled with the judgement and the de rigeuer partisan ad hominem attacks that invariably go along with it ("deplorable" "radical", "unhinged", "failed") it chills an important essence of what was, at least philosophically, supposed to be an integral part of the American form of democracy.
It is quite interesting to me that you so regularly choose to take the position of defending a post like this that is full of fallacious and false information just because you can glean a little kernel from it and use that to dangle some form of "I'm right about something you all don't see!" over the heads of everyone else. You're a smart guy, but is feeling intellectually one-step ahead of the rest of the forums at all times really that important to you?
I've seen you respond to several interesting, thoughtful posts on this forum (several of them authored by yours truly) by picking out a sentence or two you don't like and using that as an excuse to rationalize throwing out the entirety of someone else's point. Here you quote a post where 3/4ths of the ideas articulated are completely false, and respond with "you're getting warmer, here's how you're right about why everyone else here is being unreasonable!"
Stop. Not "defending" anything, and I'm not "throwing out" anything. Jingle, Cram, and Lonestar do not need more stats from me to make their point. For fuck's sake, read what I wrote about assumptions. That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. DON'T ASSUME YOU KNOW WHAT MY POSITION IS BECAUSE I POINT OUT ONE THING.
I am pro-vax (up to the point of forcing people to take them). I am anti-conspiracy theory. I can't say that enough, and I said it in that post. I am also, first and foremost, against the sort of partisan "you're dumb" back and forth that, supposedly, "delivers". Let's be able to talk about ALL aspects of this without a ton of presupposition. I did not in any way say that the REST of his position is "warmer" because he got close on one thing. I said he's getting warm because THAT point had some truth. Why not look at it that the dude is getting POUNDED by you all - and I threw him a bone, fair is fair. Why are some of you so scared to acknowledge that it's not a matter of "100% right side of history! and 100% bat-shit turbo crazy!" We're ALLOWED to disagree with nuance.
See my above post. Your entire objective with defending darkshade is completely fallacious. There is no "middle ground" and "mutual acceptance" if there is no compromise. All we can do is disagree if both sides are unwilling to change ANY of their behaviors as part of a greater commitment.
One, you're flat wrong; I'm not "defending" Darkshade. Whether you want to be considerate and tolerant, and call it one of a few points he has right, or whether you want to continue to be marginalizing and rejecting and say "even a broken clock is right twice a day", he made a point that was worth discussing further, IMO.
And you're missing a big point I've been making for months (maybe years) now. YOU CAN'T CONTROL THE "THEM". You can only control yourself. You can't FORCE them to compromise, but you CAN set the stage for the them to compromise. I've been saying until I'm blue in the face that continuing with the "you're stupid/deplorable/unhinged/whatever" isn't setting the stage for compromise, it's ACTIVELY making it less likely you will get compromise. If you're okay with that, so be it (I'm not here to tell you what to think), but at least own your position in that matter, and acknowledge you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
And again, this isn't DEFENDING either side. If you'd like I'll ask Darkshade the same questions: what are you willing to concede to get what you really want?
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Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".
FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.
Fair, but (and on this we do not see eye-to-eye), why should someone's decision to not get vaccinated then also put my health at risk? This is what I take issue with. I think public and private institutions should have the ability to limit access to services and/or facilities for those that put others' health at risk because of their decisions / actions. If they want to put their own health at risk - hey, go for it. But don't in turn put mine at risk.
I think we need to develop quick/rapid/instant tests that are accurate for those that refuse to vaccinate. If they have an alternative, then they can get access to services/facilities.
Why? Because you have no "right" to a zero-risk existence. That's the fallacy. You're at risk every single day based on the acts/omissions/decisions of others. Some obvious and direct, others not so obvious and more consequential. No rights are absolute; in a democratic society, rights are relative, relative to those rights of those around you. I don't have the right to kill you... unless you abuse my right to privacy. You have the right to free speech... unless you abuse my right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness (you cannot slander/libel me). All rights have some level of compromise as they butt against someone else's right, and so here with the added proviso that you arguably don't have the "right" that is being compromised to begin with. I've often suggested that when having this conversation, insert "abortion" in with "vaccine" because the premise is the same, the rights in question are the same, and the analysis is the same.
We KNOW that an abortion - by an individual woman - has societal impacts. There is cost, there is impact on things like crime, etc. But do we MANDATE abortions? Absolutely not, and when legislature gets uppity in terms of putting any framework around abortion, WE get uppity (myself included). All on the premise that a woman's rights to privacy are sacrosanct, regardless of the impact to others or society.
Similarly, people have no "right" to go see a concert, or a sporting event, or crossing a border, or <insert pretty much anything>. So, if those rights are removed for whatever reason, then my response is 'suck-it-up-buttercup'. We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to smoke on a plane was removed, or smoke indoors. We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to drive while impaired was removed. We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to carry 4oz bottles of liquid on a plane was removed. So if a company or gov't wants to limit "rights" because of vaccination or COVID status, I don't see where that is out of line.
Ironic you chose abortion as your analogy, because some States essentially MANDATE no-abortion, regardless of the impact to the individual.
Except you hopped the fence there. There was never a "right" to smoke, etc. There IS a right to privacy, and a fundamental one, that the Supreme Court has extended to one's body (thus the abortion reference). There have been how many court cases regarding the delineation of that line, and as we all know now that Brett Kavanaugh is on the Court, women are dropping like flies (the reference being that it is clearly an important issue to many).
If you don't like the abortion reference, why not use "voting"? We're bending over backwards to make sure people can vote with the least amount of restrictions - really, NO restrictions - and if you advocate restrictions, you're apparently a fascist totalitarian Trump-maniac and probably a racist to boot. Many of us (myself included) feel we're being harmed by an abundance of deference to that particular right, but "harm" doesn't seem to matter. Why not the same deference to that right of a person to have ultimate authority of their body?
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How is asking for proof of one's vaccination status a violation of their privacy? We allow for a roadside sobriety test, so how is Covid status (negative or vaccinated) different. Serious question.
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Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".
FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.
Fair, but (and on this we do not see eye-to-eye), why should someone's decision to not get vaccinated then also put my health at risk? This is what I take issue with. I think public and private institutions should have the ability to limit access to services and/or facilities for those that put others' health at risk because of their decisions / actions. If they want to put their own health at risk - hey, go for it. But don't in turn put mine at risk.
I think we need to develop quick/rapid/instant tests that are accurate for those that refuse to vaccinate. If they have an alternative, then they can get access to services/facilities.
Why? Because you have no "right" to a zero-risk existence. That's the fallacy. You're at risk every single day based on the acts/omissions/decisions of others. Some obvious and direct, others not so obvious and more consequential. No rights are absolute; in a democratic society, rights are relative, relative to those rights of those around you. I don't have the right to kill you... unless you abuse my right to privacy. You have the right to free speech... unless you abuse my right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness (you cannot slander/libel me). All rights have some level of compromise as they butt against someone else's right, and so here with the added proviso that you arguably don't have the "right" that is being compromised to begin with. I've often suggested that when having this conversation, insert "abortion" in with "vaccine" because the premise is the same, the rights in question are the same, and the analysis is the same.
We KNOW that an abortion - by an individual woman - has societal impacts. There is cost, there is impact on things like crime, etc. But do we MANDATE abortions? Absolutely not, and when legislature gets uppity in terms of putting any framework around abortion, WE get uppity (myself included). All on the premise that a woman's rights to privacy are sacrosanct, regardless of the impact to others or society.
Similarly, people have no "right" to go see a concert, or a sporting event, or crossing a border, or <insert pretty much anything>. So, if those rights are removed for whatever reason, then my response is 'suck-it-up-buttercup'. We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to smoke on a plane was removed, or smoke indoors. We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to drive while impaired was removed. We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to carry 4oz bottles of liquid on a plane was removed. So if a company or gov't wants to limit "rights" because of vaccination or COVID status, I don't see where that is out of line.
Ironic you chose abortion as your analogy, because some States essentially MANDATE no-abortion, regardless of the impact to the individual.
No state has an outright ban on abortion. I think it is 12 states that have restrictions - either time or scope - on abortions, some more restrictive than others, but no mandates. I'm personally not in favor of any outright restrictions (I don't have issue with many of the administrative constraints) but none of the more onerous ones have passed muster with the courts as of yet.
And here's the thing: if the legislature - elected by the people - and supported by the courts - confirmed by the legislature - enact restrictive vaccination laws, and the court upholds them, I'll be the first to support them, because at least it was done according to the democratic process, not some arbitrary standard. That's the way the law works; we win some and we lose some (ideologically).
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How is asking for proof of one's vaccination status a violation of their privacy? We allow for a roadside sobriety test, so how is Covid status (negative or vaccinated) different. Serious question.
I would imagine that's because it is illegal to drive drunk. Not being vaccinated is not illegal or criminal in nature.
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Also, health / life insurance companies ask for a LITANY of health status' before providing their product. How is that not a violation of individual privacy? I'm genuinely trying to understand where the difference / distinction is.
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The data proves we are out of the pandemic, and those not vaccinated don't necessarily need it. This doesn't account for those with antibodies.
Not sure why I'm trying to educate you, but here goes. Data trends don't prove anything. They only reveal patterns. The "Pandemic" is not solely a reflection of case counts in the United States. Do you think the virus knows about boundaries? Do you think they need to clear customs before coming into the US? Only the ignorant or arrogant could think that this chart "proves we are out of the pandemic". If you were to look at this chart in the timeframe of 2016-2019, would your conclusion then be "we'll never experience a pandemic"?.
As a general point, and not specific to you, Jingle, I canNOT wait for the next gun discussion. I have enough for probably 25, 30 posts (not just from you, but generally). :) :) :)
Also, anti-bodies =/= immunity. In fact, anti-bodies resulting from infection are weaker and shorter lasting than the antibodies that vaccines teach our body to develop.
I did not know that. Learn something new..... Medical question: how does the body know the difference?
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No state has an outright ban on abortion. I think it is 12 states that have restrictions - either time or scope - on abortions, some more restrictive than others, but no mandates. I'm personally not in favor of any outright restrictions (I don't have issue with many of the administrative constraints) but none of the more onerous ones have passed muster with the courts as of yet.
Fair... and I'm not advocating for a ban on not-being vaccinated ... but I have no problem with restrictions on those that are or are at risk of catching/spreading COVID, and/or actually being COVID positive.
I did not know that. Learn something new..... Medical question: how does the body know the difference?
Not sure, but it's something I've heard specifically in interviews (video and print) with virologists - specific to mRNA vaccines and COVID. A quick scan on the interwebz suggests that my statement is not absolute, but "it depends".
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How is asking for proof of one's vaccination status a violation of their privacy? We allow for a roadside sobriety test, so how is Covid status (negative or vaccinated) different. Serious question.
There are too many conflicting things going on here; all that I've written above is about forcing someone to GET a vaccine, not disclose. Other than HIPPA, there's no reason someone can't ASK for proof of vaccine; what they do with it is another story. A private owner could concievably deny access for no vaccine. But I would consider the analogy here to be "HIV". What would your reaction be if someone denied someone else access to a store because they wouldn't reveal whether they were HIV positive or not?
This might pull El Barto out of the woodwork - :) - but a cop needs probable cause to do a breathalyzer. I imagine the concept of "expectation of privacy" is a factor here as well.
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Also, health / life insurance companies ask for a LITANY of health status' before providing their product. How is that not a violation of individual privacy? I'm genuinely trying to understand where the difference / distinction is.
It's complicated, but presumably, you're volunteering the information in order to get the product that you neither have to buy, nor that they have to sell you. For healthcare procured through your employer, for example - and I can check this - much of the data is anonymous. The healthcare company gets the "feed" of the employee base - there are 15 smokers, 5 with cancer, 3 with herpes, 10 who are obese, but they don't actually know if Stadler is one of the obese, herpetic, cancerous smokers (I don't smoke, FYI).
They also cannot disclose this information to any third party without your authorization.
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The data proves we are out of the pandemic, and those not vaccinated don't necessarily need it. This doesn't account for those with antibodies.
Not sure why I'm trying to educate you, but here goes. Data trends don't prove anything. They only reveal patterns. The "Pandemic" is not solely a reflection of case counts in the United States. Do you think the virus knows about boundaries? Do you think they need to clear customs before coming into the US? Only the ignorant or arrogant could think that this chart "proves we are out of the pandemic". If you were to look at this chart in the timeframe of 2016-2019, would your conclusion then be "we'll never experience a pandemic"?.
As a general point, and not specific to you, Jingle, I canNOT wait for the next gun discussion. I have enough for probably 25, 30 posts (not just from you, but generally). :) :) :)
Touche. Surely you've noticed that I've tapped out of those discussions. :P
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No state has an outright ban on abortion. I think it is 12 states that have restrictions - either time or scope - on abortions, some more restrictive than others, but no mandates. I'm personally not in favor of any outright restrictions (I don't have issue with many of the administrative constraints) but none of the more onerous ones have passed muster with the courts as of yet.
Fair... and I'm not advocating for a ban on not-being vaccinated ... but I have no problem with restrictions on those that are or are at risk of catching/spreading COVID, and/or actually being COVID positive.
I did not know that. Learn something new..... Medical question: how does the body know the difference?
Not sure, but it's something I've heard specifically in interviews (video and print) with virologists - specific to mRNA vaccines and COVID. A quick scan on the interwebz suggests that my statement is not absolute, but "it depends".
I wasn't quizzing you; I am absolutely FASCINATED by the concept of immunology. I was pre-med for the first two years of college, but opted to a) drink and play Setback most of that time, and b) to switch to engineering once I sobered up, but if I knew then what I know now, I would have gone into immunology. It's one of the five wonders of the world, for me. :O
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Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.
Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.
They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!
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Also, health / life insurance companies ask for a LITANY of health status' before providing their product. How is that not a violation of individual privacy? I'm genuinely trying to understand where the difference / distinction is.
It's complicated, but presumably, you're volunteering the information in order to get the product that you neither have to buy, nor that they have to sell you.
They also cannot disclose this information to any third party without your authorization.
On your first point, isn't that then the same say, if you want to go to TD Garden to watch a game? You're required to "volunteer" the information (ie, COVID status) in order to get the product (ticket) "that you neither have to buy, nor they have to sell you"?
On the second point, Ok, I'm game. I absolutely agree that any collection of vax status needs to have very clear protocols around it.
I wasn't quizzing you;
Never thought you were - I was just holding myself accountable to the validity of my own statements. There was no defensiveness in my response - just explaining.
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Also, health / life insurance companies ask for a LITANY of health status' before providing their product. How is that not a violation of individual privacy? I'm genuinely trying to understand where the difference / distinction is.
It's complicated, but presumably, you're volunteering the information in order to get the product that you neither have to buy, nor that they have to sell you.
They also cannot disclose this information to any third party without your authorization.
On your first point, isn't that then the same say, if you want to go to TD Garden to watch a game? You're required to "volunteer" the information (ie, COVID status) in order to get the product (ticket) "that you neither have to buy, nor they have to sell you"?
On the second point, Ok, I'm game. I absolutely agree that any collection of vax status needs to have very clear protocols around it.
I suppose it is; I don't necessarily have a problem (legally, I don't mean personally, though I don't personally have a problem either) with TD Garden requiring people to be vaccinated.
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I suppose it is; I don't necessarily have a problem (legally, I don't mean personally, though I don't personally have a problem either) with TD Garden requiring people to be vaccinated.
Sorry for not responding a lot here (busy work day, also a lot of this thread is getting way off track), but isn't this the same kind of activity that is being called "bullying" and "totalitarianism" here? People are being asked by the government and often their workplaces to volunteer to get the vaccine. No one is being forced. Offering private incentives to those who have gotten it is nothing new. In some cases people are able to enjoy additional loosening of restrictions for being able to demonstrate vaccine status.
So what am I missing? Where does the meter flip a few notches into totalitarianism? (And no, I didn't click the agitation politics news sites that were linked earlier). You asked earlier what I'd do to meet darkshade in the middle. I have no idea what I could do, because darkshade has been "forced" to do nothing. The whole rollout has been designed to make the skeptics feel as comfortable and coddled as possible that the vaccine will be less dangerous even than taking a tylenol (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/us/politics/johnson-johnson-vaccine-blood-clots-fda-cdc.html) and yet we're still here.
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Gentle reminder that some of these discussions may be better taken to the P/R coronavirus thread. :)
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Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.
Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.
They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!
Well hope you get better soon, and congrats on the full dosage!
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The data proves we are out of the pandemic, and those not vaccinated don't necessarily need it. This doesn't account for those with antibodies.
Not sure why I'm trying to educate you, but here goes. Data trends don't prove anything. They only reveal patterns. The "Pandemic" is not solely a reflection of case counts in the United States. Do you think the virus knows about boundaries? Do you think they need to clear customs before coming into the US? Only the ignorant or arrogant could think that this chart "proves we are out of the pandemic". If you were to look at this chart in the timeframe of 2016-2019, would your conclusion then be "we'll never experience a pandemic"?.
As a general point, and not specific to you, Jingle, I canNOT wait for the next gun discussion. I have enough for probably 25, 30 posts (not just from you, but generally). :) :) :)
Also, anti-bodies =/= immunity. In fact, anti-bodies resulting from infection are weaker and shorter lasting than the antibodies that vaccines teach our body to develop.
I did not know that. Learn something new..... Medical question: how does the body know the difference?
The mRNA vaccines have a blueprint in the mRNA that causes your Immune system to create and make the antibodies that are strong enough to defend from covid-19. The issue is are these blueprints good enough to help the immune system create strong antibodies that will defend against the stronger mutations of the virus.
The natural immune system doesn't have a blueprint that forces your immune system to create these anitbodies.
The reason why people are concerned about the vaccines is due to if these blueprints won't cause the immune system to make stronger antibodies levels than is needed and may cause more harm than good for the person.
A study published yesterday in JAMA Internal Medicine of 175 patients who recovered from mild COVID-19 reveals wide variation in the levels of antibodies against the novel coronavirus, ranging from very high levels in 2 patients to undetectable levels in 10—but no significant difference in illness duration.
Researchers from Fudan University in Shanghai, China, measured antibody levels in COVID-19 patients released from Shanghai Public Health Clinical Center after being hospitalized from Jan 24 to Feb 26.
Of the 175 patients, 165 (94%) had significantly higher levels of COVID-19 antibodies than 13 uninfected controls in the convalescent phase of infection. Antibody levels were medium-low in 29 patients (17%), medium-high in 69 patients (39%), and high in 25 patients (14%).
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/08/covid-19-antibody-levels-vary-widely-recovered-patients
“Everyone’s immune response is unique to that individual. We have been studying individual immune responses to COVID-19 and COVID-19 vaccination, and we are finding that the immediacy, strength, and duration of antibody responses can vary widely based on a multitude of variables,” said Amro Albanna, Co-founder and Chief Executive Officer of Aditxt. “The addition of this new AditxtScore for COVID-19 captures important data on how effective an individual’s antibodies are for inactivating the virus. We believe that as more people become vaccinated or exposed to the virus, AditxtScore for COVID-19 with neutralizing antibody diagnostics adds that next level of precision, delivering more detailed information of the strength of immune response against the virus.”
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210712005125/en/Aditxt-Launches-High-Sensitivity-Neutralizing-Antibody-Test-to-Detect-Individual-Immune-Response-to-COVID-19/?feedref=JjAwJuNHiystnCoBq_hl-fqXyBvmekC3Xq1G1wQ7hjMFbZM1ntlKeK-8bUzJqFSVSfe41V1BKA-b6v2ZVrSSNs-dUYKiDvY7XniNSqv88QcY1Ge_vf9QIMZ4alzIf_0HlyE0C4hZhHVlTvKnn0d0vQ==
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The mRNA vaccines have a blueprint in the mRNA that causes your Immune system to create and make the antibodies that are strong enough to defend from covid-19. The issue is are these blueprints good enough to help the immune system create strong antibodies that will defend against the stronger mutations of the virus.
The natural immune system doesn't have a blueprint that forces your immune system to create these antibodies.
This is not quite right. The mRNA vaccines in fact work by giving the body instructions to self-synthesise parts of the virus. While that might sound a bit scary on first reading, it really isn't.
Cells basically make parts and replicate by taking RNA (single strand DNA) and using that a blueprint/set of instructions to create whatever bit of cell they want. The mRNA covid vaccines work by injecting viral RNA into the body such that the body's cells read and process that RNA in addition to all the RNA the body usually produces, instead of just making their own parts, will also make the key parts of the virus that provoke an immune response (namely the spike proteins), but ONLY those parts. There is no RNA for other parts of the virus, so the body never sees a full virus (alive, dead, attenuated, or otherwise) as a result of the vaccine.
So the vaccine is not so much a blueprint for the antibodies, but a blueprint for inert, safe bits of the virus that enable your body's immune system to train itself to fight the virus and produce its own effective antibodies. It's like giving your immune system a series of pop quizzes or mock exams before a real test shows up. Sure, you can take the test without prior practice, but you'll probably do worse than you would do otherwise, and you'll be a hell of a lot slower in getting to the right answers.
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Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.
Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.
They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!
You should be fine. That is just the normal effects of the second shot. Many people I know got like this when they took their second Moderna shot.
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The mRNA vaccines have a blueprint in the mRNA that causes your Immune system to create and make the antibodies that are strong enough to defend from covid-19. The issue is are these blueprints good enough to help the immune system create strong antibodies that will defend against the stronger mutations of the virus.
The natural immune system doesn't have a blueprint that forces your immune system to create these anitbodies.
This is not quite right. The mRNA vaccines in fact work by giving the body instructions to self-synthesise parts of the virus.
Cells basically make parts and replicate by taking RNA (single strand DNA) and using that a blueprint/set of instructions to create whatever bit of cell they want. The mRNA covid vaccines work by injecting viral RNA into the body such that the bodies cells, instead of just making their own parts, will also make the key parts of the virus that provoke an immune response (namely the spike proteins), but ONLY those parts. There is no RNA for other parts of the virus, so the body never sees a full virus as a result of the vaccine.
So the vaccine is not so much a blueprint for the antibodies, but a blueprint for inert, safe bits of the virus that enable your body's immune system to train itself to fight the virus. It's like giving your immune system a series of pop quizzes or mock exams before a real test shows up. Sure, you can take the test without prior practice, but you'll probably do worse than you would do otherwise, and you'll be a hell of a lot slower in getting to the right answers.
Keyword there is probably. Because as the links above explained. Everyone's immune response is unique to that individual. There could be individuals that can pass the test without practice as they're naturally knowledgeable. What if these people naturally just have great immune responses?
How is one to know if that natural response is good by not catching the virus? And you won't need to inject a novel vaccine.
It's new technology that hasn't been used in the masses, and is injected into the body. Do we really know the long-term effects of this vaccine? Or are just having faith in the numbers and models and studies that the mRNA, in the longer term, won't have any effect on the immune system?
See, it's hard to force people to take a vaccine that is novel and is brand new technology, and if everyone's immune response is different, how is one to know, FOR SURE, these won't have long term effect 5 years down the road?
Any remedy or vaccine is based on Faith that it will work. I have faith that this cord won't break on me that is keeping me safe from falling 50 feet while cleaning the outside window of the CEO. I have faith, this Dialysis and Radiation technology, will cure me. I have faith this novel mRNA vaccine will keep me from dying from Covid-19.
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Keyword there is probably. Because as the links above explained. Everyone's immune response is unique to that individual. There could be individuals that can pass the test without practice as they're naturally knowledgeable. What if these people naturally just have great immune responses?
How is one to know if that natural response is good by not catching the virus? And you won't need to inject a novel vaccine.
Are you suggesting it's better to get the virus than the vaccine? No one knows how their immune system will respond, but the numbers show it's much more likely to be a worse response to gain a natural infection than the vaccine. Also, as a bonus, you are less likely to infect someone you love being vaxxed versus waiting to find out how your natural infection will play out.
See, it's hard to force people to take a vaccine that is novel and is brand new technology, and if everyone's immune response is different, how is one to know, FOR SURE, these won't have long term effect 5 years down the road?
It's great that we have the J&J vaccine then because it's not new technology. It's a proven effective and safe technology that we've all been given before for other disease.
Any remedy or vaccine is based on Faith that it will work.
No. It's based on science.
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Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.
Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.
They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!
Moderna guy here. The second shot was not fun at all. Got mine around Noon time back in January. By late evening I was not well. I barely slept that night and had a splitting headache that seemed worse than a migraine and felt like I had been beaten. By about 36 hours after the shot, it's like nothing happened.
Now I enjoy my 5G. Not quite sure why all of my money goes to a Democratic super PAC, but it just feels right. I can feel it in my genes. Not to mention all the Microsoft stock I bought. :biggrin:
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Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.
Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.
They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!
Moderna guy here. The second shot was not fun at all. Got mine around Noon time back in January. By late evening I was not well. I barely slept that night and had a splitting headache that seemed worse than a migraine and felt like I had been beaten. By about 36 hours after the shot, it's like nothing happened.
Now I enjoy my 5G. Not quite sure why all of my money goes to a Democratic super PAC, but it just feels right. I can feel it in my genes. Not to mention all the Microsoft stock I bought. :biggrin:
We'll have to look for a USB port on you. :lol
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Keyword there is probably. Because as the links above explained. Everyone's immune response is unique to that individual. There could be individuals that can pass the test without practice as they're naturally knowledgeable. What if these people naturally just have great immune responses?
How is one to know if that natural response is good by not catching the virus? And you won't need to inject a novel vaccine.
Are you suggesting it's better to get the virus than the vaccine? No one knows how their immune system will respond, but the numbers show it's much more likely to be a worse response to gain a natural infection than the vaccine. Also, as a bonus, you are less likely to infect someone you love being vaxxed versus waiting to find out how your natural infection will play out.
No, I am not suggesting it is better the get the virus. Though, it is personal, and why you should have visited your doctor before making that choice to get the vaccine.
There are stories of people that are getting bad symptoms, and that is there choice to make. Their decision and consequence is getting the virus and possibly even dying. You whom got the vaccine, should be fine, if the vaccine does indeed do it's job in creating a stronger immune response against the virus.
The thing is as well. It's pretty damn hard to control the people. History shows this many times. Knowing this, it will be very, very, difficult to completely get to zero covid-19, where it will be completely wiped out. If you think it will, then that is a hard rude awakening.
Because due to one's perspectives on medicine, most are relying on their own traditional knowledge, rather than the knowledge of the "Other."
This American Society thinks the world has that same mindset. The reality is, there a many vast mindsets, and these are dealing with Covid-19 in their own ways.
No. It's based on science.
How is Science not based on faith? Doesn't the scientist have faith his experiment will prove his hypothesis correct? Science itself is not definitive, it's based on many experiments that prove their hypothesis. And there are other scientists that will challenge that experiment result, by creating their own experiment that is set out to prove that hypothesis false.
And what they are doing is silencing the opposing Scientists that are setting out to prove the hypothesis and results are not correct. While, these other "experts" are screaming dissent at these quack doctors, whom know nothing about science.
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I suppose it is; I don't necessarily have a problem (legally, I don't mean personally, though I don't personally have a problem either) with TD Garden requiring people to be vaccinated.
Sorry for not responding a lot here (busy work day, also a lot of this thread is getting way off track), but isn't this the same kind of activity that is being called "bullying" and "totalitarianism" here? People are being asked by the government and often their workplaces to volunteer to get the vaccine. No one is being forced. Offering private incentives to those who have gotten it is nothing new. In some cases people are able to enjoy additional loosening of restrictions for being able to demonstrate vaccine status.
Well, not to encourage you lumping anyone that's not on the "Yay" Train into one, but as someone that has said "bullying" and "totalitarianism", what you are offering is not the same. I can't speak for Darkshade, but I've already said I'm in strong favor of incentives for vaccination. As for restrictions and limits, the difference is, private entity/citizen, operating unilaterally, and taking a position is not "bullying" or "totalitarianism". It crosses the line to "bullying", for me, when it goes beyond a single actor and starts to incorporate influence and consequences.
It starts to veer into "totalitarianism" when it becomes an administrative mandate from the government.
None of these are absolutes, they are just my guide.
So what am I missing? Where does the meter flip a few notches into totalitarianism? (And no, I didn't click the agitation politics news sites that were linked earlier). You asked earlier what I'd do to meet darkshade in the middle. I have no idea what I could do, because darkshade has been "forced" to do nothing. The whole rollout has been designed to make the skeptics feel as comfortable and coddled as possible that the vaccine will be less dangerous even than taking a tylenol (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/us/politics/johnson-johnson-vaccine-blood-clots-fda-cdc.html) and yet we're still here.
As I said above, the meter flips, for me, at government mandate. I get it, and I complied, but some of the actions of the governors during the early stages of the pandemic were on the other side of that equation. That doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong, especially in the case of emergency, but the emergency - the overwhelming of our healthcare system - has passed.
As for the latter part of your paragraph, neither one of you should be "forced", except by your compromise. Why "force" him? That's not a compromise then. As as for "coddled", well, I hear that and I just want to drop everything and join you.
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No. It's based on science.
How is Science not based on faith? Doesn't the scientist have faith his experiment will prove his hypothesis correct? Science itself is not definitive, it's based on many experiments that prove their hypothesis. And there are other scientists that will challenge that experiment result, by creating their own experiment that is set out to prove that hypothesis false.
And what they are doing is silencing the opposing Scientists that are setting out to prove the hypothesis and results are not correct. While, these other "experts" are screaming dissent at these quack doctors, whom know nothing about science.
If you don't understand the difference between faith and science, I don't think I can fathom a response. I mean you kind of wrote the difference, but you still don't seem to understand. And maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't seen or heard of anyone showing the science against the vaccine and being silenced. Can you share a scientific article that shows this?
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How is Science not based on faith? Doesn't the scientist have faith his experiment will prove his hypothesis correct? Science itself is not definitive, it's based on many experiments that prove their hypothesis. And there are other scientists that will challenge that experiment result, by creating their own experiment that is set out to prove that hypothesis false.
And what they are doing is silencing the opposing Scientists that are setting out to prove the hypothesis and results are not correct. While, these other "experts" are screaming dissent at these quack doctors, whom know nothing about science.
Aren't you missing a step, or at the very least, downplaying it? It's science because those other scientists try to debunk it (in so many words) and cannot. Real science is the antithesis of faith, in that it gives you the same answer regardless of what your belief system is. I mean, I see where you are going - we don't need to see it working to know it's there, which is a form of faith - but philosophically there is a huge difference.
Now, we have to sort of clarify that there is science - as in 2+2 - and science - as in the general theory of relativity, where we are constantly and repeatedly "fine tuning" as more and more data and evidence comes in.
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Keyword there is probably. Because as the links above explained. Everyone's immune response is unique to that individual. There could be individuals that can pass the test without practice as they're naturally knowledgeable. What if these people naturally just have great immune responses?
This response seems to be based on an ignorance of how the immune system actually functions. People have different levels of innate immunity and that will have an effect on the probability of an infection being able to enter or taking hold, however when an infection does get a foothold (which with a virus like Covid is a matter of when, not if in an unvaccinated population with little spread mitigation), a person who has been exposed to the virus or better a vaccine WILL unequivocally have an advantage over a person who is seeing the virus/proteins for the first time. In an unexposed/vaccinated individual, the body is relying initially on the B-lymphocytes (antigen producing cells) that will be producing the antigens randomly until they find an antigen that matches the specific threat, before they can start differentiating into the plasma cells and start pumping out antigens. This initial search is a stochastic process.
The immune response will ALWAYS be quicker in a vaccinated person since there will be existing memory B cells that IMMEDIATELY differentiate into plasma cells to produce antigens.
It's new technology that hasn't been used in the masses, and is injected into the body. Do we really know the long-term effects of this vaccine?
Not in practical terms, but neither do we have any knowledge of what the long term effects of unchecked covid infection are. Long COVID is a thing, and we have no idea if an initial infection may lie dormant or resurface (like shingles or Measles encephalitis). When it comes to risk evaluation, vaccines are are demonstrably lower risk than unmitigated spread of COVID. And if you are worried about novel technology, there are plenty of vaccines based on "mature" vaccine technologies.
Or are just having faith in the numbers and models and studies that the mRNA, in the longer term, won't have any effect on the immune system?
Trust is not faith. We trust in the models, we trust the experts that analyse possible failure modes or test cases which would show a deficiency in their models, we trust the multiple sets of trials show how safe the vaccines are and what dangers there are (if any) and we trust in the data that shows they are working with minimal side effects in the vaccinated population.
See, it's hard to force people to take a vaccine that is novel and is brand new technology, and if everyone's immune response is different, how is one to know, FOR SURE, these won't have long term effect 5 years down the road?
How do you know your airbag won't misfire and fling shrapnel into your eyes? How do you know the coffee machine isn't miswired and has the entire case at 120V? You don't but again, it comes down to evaluating the probable risk. And the vaccines ARE safer than catching COVID.
Any remedy or vaccine is based on Faith that it will work.
No, its based on data that shows it demonstrably DOES work.
I have faith that this cord won't break on me that is keeping me safe from falling 50 feet while cleaning the outside window of the CEO.
No. You trust that a engineer did the stress and yield strength calculations on the rope and carabiner, the factory and the federal or national agencies that enforce inspection and material standards did their job to ensure the rope performs to the required specifications, and you trust in the training of either yourself or the rope operator that they use it correctly.
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Gentle reminder that some of these discussions may be better taken to the P/R coronavirus thread. :)
Oh god there's more of this??? :lol
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How is Science not based on faith? Doesn't the scientist have faith his experiment will prove his hypothesis correct? Science itself is not definitive, it's based on many experiments that prove their hypothesis. And there are other scientists that will challenge that experiment result, by creating their own experiment that is set out to prove that hypothesis false.
And what they are doing is silencing the opposing Scientists that are setting out to prove the hypothesis and results are not correct. While, these other "experts" are screaming dissent at these quack doctors, whom know nothing about science.
Aren't you missing a step, or at the very least, downplaying it? It's science because those other scientists try to debunk it (in so many words) and cannot. Real science is the antithesis of faith, in that it gives you the same answer regardless of what your belief system is. I mean, I see where you are going - we don't need to see it working to know it's there, which is a form of faith - but philosophically there is a huge difference.
Now, we have to sort of clarify that there is science - as in 2+2 - and science - as in the general theory of relativity, where we are constantly and repeatedly "fine tuning" as more and more data and evidence comes in.
I replied in the P/R Thread.
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Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.
Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.
They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!
This sort of story makes me even more apprehensive to get a jab.
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Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.
Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.
They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!
This sort of story makes me even more apprehensive to get a jab.
You do realize your not getting actual COVID right? Think of it like working out with heavy weights and being really sore the next couple of days. Would that deter you from exercise? (Prolly not the best example but hey, it's all I got).
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Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.
Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.
They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!
This sort of story makes me even more apprehensive to get a jab.
None of us know your health. You may experience the same side effect symptoms, and you may not even feel these side effects at all. It won't be known until you take that vaccine. It's why it's your personal decision whether to take it or not. As they say, the benefits outweigh the risks.
Just go to your doctor and get their professional opinion on the vaccine. They're the one that knows your personal health information and is the one who guides you to have better overall health. And if you don't trust that doctor, then go to other doctors and get their professional opinion and come to a consensus.
Your body, is your body and you only get one. Many have chosen to take it, as they see the benefits outweigh the risks.
And you really don't have to be so upfront with your decision either. Many are voluntarily choosing to tell the world and show their pride in taking the vaccine. As we live in a world where everyone has to let the world know what they're eating, at which restaurant they're eating at, who was their waiter, whether he is cute, etc. as if people are so invested and interested in these exclamations.
Thinking for yourself is not easy, and is where many tough, life changing decisions are made, as you are the one in charge of the life you were gifted with living. There are consequences for every one of these decisions, and we being human, must accept these consequences and face them head on as they are the results and effects of the decision we chose to make. There are many instances where one man has created a world-wide effect that affected many aspects of the world. It's why I find it insane how much control 1 business owner has. Their decisions affect the entire world.
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Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.
Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.
They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!
This sort of story makes me even more apprehensive to get a jab.
You do realize your not getting actual COVID right? Think of it like working out with heavy weights and being really sore the next couple of days. Would that deter you from exercise? (Prolly not the best example but hey, it's all I got).
You do realize I'm not a total fuckwit right?
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At the moment, I'm not pro or anti vax at all. Just very skeptical and luckily my age and health means I'm happy to see how things play out for a bit. Again, we are seeing ramifications from the virus, but nothing like over there.
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99.9% of all doctors will tell you to get the shots.
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Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.
Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.
They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!
This sort of story makes me even more apprehensive to get a jab.
None of us know your health. You may experience the same side effect symptoms, and you may not even feel these side effects at all. It won't be known until you take that vaccine. It's why it's your personal decision whether to take it or not. As they say, the benefits outweigh the risks.
Just go to your doctor and get their professional opinion on the vaccine. They're the one that knows your personal health information and is the one who guides you to have better overall health. And if you don't trust that doctor, then go to other doctors and get their professional opinion and come to a consensus.
Your body, is your body and you only get one. Many have chosen to take it, as they see the benefits outweigh the risks.
And you really don't have to be so upfront with your decision either. Many are voluntarily choosing to tell the world and show their pride in taking the vaccine. As we live in a world where everyone has to let the world know what they're eating, at which restaurant they're eating at, who was their waiter, whether he is cute, etc. as if people are so invested and interested in these exclamations.
Thinking for yourself is not easy, and is where many tough, life changing decisions are made, as you are the one in charge of the life you were gifted with living. There are consequences for every one of these decisions, and we being human, must accept these consequences and face them head on as they are the results and effects of the decision we chose to make. There are many instances where one man has created a world-wide effect that affected many aspects of the world. It's why I find it insane how much control 1 business owner has. Their decisions affect the entire world.
I find thinking for myself quite easy truthfully.
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99m9% of all doctors will tell you to get the shots.
I haven't been to a GP in over 10 years.
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And maybe your in good health. The doctor would still tell you to get the vaccine.
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At the moment, I'm not pro or anti vax at all. Just very skeptical and luckily my age and health means I'm happy to see how things play out for a bit. Again, we are seeing ramifications from the virus, but nothing like over there.
I don't get why you want to get the vaccine but what would it take to convince you? I really want to know. Is the hesitancy religion? Politics? Ignorance? I could understand this mindset in say March of this year. But we have too much data about the efficacy of the vaccines so hopefully without chastising you, what is your reasoning ?
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I find thinking for myself quite easy truthfully.
TBH, while we all think of ourselves first and I think that's totally fair. Once you recognize you are unlikely to have a serious side effect from the vaccine (you only mentioned you are young and healthy, which is great, but some people have known adverse side effects to vaccines from prior experience or have known allergies or other illness that prevents them from being vaccinated). Thinking about others should be next in line and a reason to put up with the potential short term side effects which includes helping those people who legitimately can't be vaccinated by vaccinating yourself. Also, many people don't have side effects at all, so please take that into account too.
A lot of healthy people can carry the virus without even knowing and spreading it to others they care about without knowing. I think about this a lot, well did think about this, which is how would I feel if my parents got seriously sick/died and they contact traced it back to me? I've got to imagine you know someone in your personal life who is susceptible to covid even if you are not. Luckily most people I know, including myself and my parents who were very on the edge, are vaccinated so this worry doesn't really exist anymore for me.
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At the moment, I'm not pro or anti vax at all. Just very skeptical and luckily my age and health means I'm happy to see how things play out for a bit. Again, we are seeing ramifications from the virus, but nothing like over there.
I don't get why you want to get the vaccine but what would it take to convince you? I really want to know. Is the hesitancy religion? Politics? Ignorance? I could understand this mindset in say March of this year. But we have too much data about the efficacy of the vaccines so hopefully without chastising you, what is your reasoning ?
You quoted his answer.
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Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.
Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.
They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!
This sort of story makes me even more apprehensive to get a jab.
None of us know your health. You may experience the same side effect symptoms, and you may not even feel these side effects at all. It won't be known until you take that vaccine. It's why it's your personal decision whether to take it or not. As they say, the benefits outweigh the risks.
Just go to your doctor and get their professional opinion on the vaccine. They're the one that knows your personal health information and is the one who guides you to have better overall health. And if you don't trust that doctor, then go to other doctors and get their professional opinion and come to a consensus.
Your body, is your body and you only get one. Many have chosen to take it, as they see the benefits outweigh the risks.
And you really don't have to be so upfront with your decision either. Many are voluntarily choosing to tell the world and show their pride in taking the vaccine. As we live in a world where everyone has to let the world know what they're eating, at which restaurant they're eating at, who was their waiter, whether he is cute, etc. as if people are so invested and interested in these exclamations.
Thinking for yourself is not easy, and is where many tough, life changing decisions are made, as you are the one in charge of the life you were gifted with living. There are consequences for every one of these decisions, and we being human, must accept these consequences and face them head on as they are the results and effects of the decision we chose to make. There are many instances where one man has created a world-wide effect that affected many aspects of the world. It's why I find it insane how much control 1 business owner has. Their decisions affect the entire world.
I find thinking for myself quite easy truthfully.
:tup
For some it doesn't come easy, it's why I worded it that way.
Being skeptical is fine. Skepticism is a human instinct that it does when it fears the unknown. It's like a defense mechanism.
The hollering of "we are right and they are wrong" does nothing to help this skepticism. It creates more confusion as one doesn't know whether who is lying and who is telling the truth.
One thing I am finding out, is that this can be treated as an entire social experiment. We are seeing certain psychological effects and mentalities take hold and play out in real time. People are really facing a severe mental crisis, as they come to the consensus and analyze all the data to make a life-time decision of whether to put this new mRNA vaccine technology into our one and only body. And these decisions are all related to one's own beliefs, truths, and faiths. Many are facing challenges to these 3 things and the thinking is mentally taking a toll on people.
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At the moment, I'm not pro or anti vax at all. Just very skeptical and luckily my age and health means I'm happy to see how things play out for a bit. Again, we are seeing ramifications from the virus, but nothing like over there.
I don't get why you want to get the vaccine but what would it take to convince you? I really want to know. Is the hesitancy religion? Politics? Ignorance? I could understand this mindset in say March of this year. But we have too much data about the efficacy of the vaccines so hopefully without chastising you, what is your reasoning ?
Honestly, I don't know. I've never been big on vaccines and even the flu shot I don't get each year, I feel it's useless for me.
I haven't followed the full thread but the last few pages I have and I can see all points, but with so many different viewpoints, it's going to be a never ending discussion.
The virus hasn't been anywhere near as devastating over here than the states. If you guys lived here, you'd probably understand why I don't have a strong viewpoint on it. I see what you guys are saying but can see points darkshade is trying to make also. I guess it hasn't impacted my life enough to warrant urgency in going and getting a jab.
What would make me change my mind? I guess, my job didn't get affected, I've been paid every since the start of the pandemic. I'm not a social guy so my outside life hasn't been affected. Me and the misses can't go away but that's about it. I haven't felt the harshness of this. In my line of work, I admit a lockdown here and there gave me a good breather. Selfish I know but I still get paid.
As I said I don't have strong viewpoints but I can see the way it's heading that vaccinations may be unavoidable. I'll look at all angles when I need to or when it affects me enough to really give a shit. I like the idea of our body using it's natural immunity towards things hence why I don't get the flu shot. But again, I'm not a total fucking wombat and can see the way it's heading. I fear when governments make the jab mandatory and what happens then with the people that refuse. Could be chaos. I won't be one of those people, I'm just undecided.
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I find thinking for myself quite easy truthfully.
TBH, while we all think of ourselves first and I think that's totally fair. Once you recognize you are unlikely to have a serious side effect from the vaccine (you only mentioned you are young and healthy, which is great, but some people have known adverse side effects to vaccines from prior experience or have known allergies or other illness that prevents them from being vaccinated). Thinking about others should be next in line and a reason to put up with the potential short term side effects which includes helping those people who legitimately can't be vaccinated by vaccinating yourself. Also, many people don't have side effects at all, so please take that into account too.
A lot of healthy people can carry the virus without even knowing and spreading it to others they care about without knowing. I think about this a lot, well did think about this, which is how would I feel if my parents got seriously sick/died and they contact traced it back to me? I've got to imagine you know someone in your personal life who is susceptible to covid even if you are not. Luckily most people I know, including myself and my parents who were very on the edge, are vaccinated so this worry doesn't really exist anymore for me.
I get all that but are we ever going to get a 100% vaccination rate? That's really what is needed is it not to somehow live with this thing. Everyone has their own morals but we can't control what any other single human being does in their life. It's a huge feat. I can't see it happening.
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Adding to my comment above, if I lived over there where it's been more devastating, my view on the realness and urgency of all this would no doubt be different.
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I find thinking for myself quite easy truthfully.
TBH, while we all think of ourselves first and I think that's totally fair. Once you recognize you are unlikely to have a serious side effect from the vaccine (you only mentioned you are young and healthy, which is great, but some people have known adverse side effects to vaccines from prior experience or have known allergies or other illness that prevents them from being vaccinated). Thinking about others should be next in line and a reason to put up with the potential short term side effects which includes helping those people who legitimately can't be vaccinated by vaccinating yourself. Also, many people don't have side effects at all, so please take that into account too.
A lot of healthy people can carry the virus without even knowing and spreading it to others they care about without knowing. I think about this a lot, well did think about this, which is how would I feel if my parents got seriously sick/died and they contact traced it back to me? I've got to imagine you know someone in your personal life who is susceptible to covid even if you are not. Luckily most people I know, including myself and my parents who were very on the edge, are vaccinated so this worry doesn't really exist anymore for me.
I get all that but are we ever going to get a 100% vaccination rate? That's really what is needed is it not to somehow live with this thing. Everyone has their own morals but we can't control what any other single human being does in their life. It's a huge feat. I can't see it happening.
We only can't because of the disinformation at this time IMO. Most experts say 70ish% to reach herd immunity so once you rule out those who can't and children, it is achievable if people just did it. But that 70% can also include previous infections. I think this is why NJ has reached herd immunity. We got hit really hard with one of the most infectious states AND we have a high vaccination rate. It's practically like there's no covid at all in this state these days (that's not true, but the numbers are negligible).
I've said it before a few times in this thread, and I certainly still believe it. Covid isn't going anywhere so you either get a natural infection or you get the vaccine. One is the better option not just for yourself, but for the greater good of humanity.
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We only can't because of the disinformation at this time IMO.
I think people can be very informed and still be hesitant. We (society, not you Marc) seem to equate hesitancy with disinformation, politics, etc... when it's simply the fear of injecting a foreign substance into your body. I'm sure that's scary for some people.
I've said it before a few times in this thread, and I certainly still believe it. Covid isn't going anywhere so you either get a natural infection or you get the vaccine. One is the better option not just for yourself, but for the greater good of humanity.
Well, the thing about this is the passability of the virus from one to another. That's an interesting dynamic. It's the thing that invites conversation about societal norms or social responsibility surrounding getting vaccinated. It's a conundrum for sure.
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We only can't because of the disinformation at this time IMO.
I think people can be very informed and still be hesitant. We (society, not you Marc) seem to equate hesitancy with disinformation, politics, etc... when it's simply the fear of injecting a foreign substance into your body. I'm sure that's scary for some people.
Well, as Darkshade tried to point out a couple of pages ago, people are hesitant for a lot of different reasons. But for some reason, I guess since it came from him, a lot of folks can't see past that to see what he was saying, and are more interested in arguing dog whistles and straw men so they can remain entrenched in their echo chambers rather than trying to understand why some people are hesitant.
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We only can't because of the disinformation at this time IMO.
I think people can be very informed and still be hesitant. We (society, not you Marc) seem to equate hesitancy with disinformation, politics, etc... when it's simply the fear of injecting a foreign substance into your body. I'm sure that's scary for some people.
True, but you even admit in this post that disinformation plays a role in hesitancy. Politcs play a role too, which should not be the case for the health of the population, but it no doubt is. However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food. That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.
I've said it before a few times in this thread, and I certainly still believe it. Covid isn't going anywhere so you either get a natural infection or you get the vaccine. One is the better option not just for yourself, but for the greater good of humanity.
Well, the thing about this is the passability of the virus from one to another. That's an interesting dynamic. It's the thing that invites conversation about societal norms or social responsibility surrounding getting vaccinated. It's a conundrum for sure.
Agreed about this. This virus is tricky and it's not a "known variable" which creates lots of ambiguity.
We only can't because of the disinformation at this time IMO.
I think people can be very informed and still be hesitant. We (society, not you Marc) seem to equate hesitancy with disinformation, politics, etc... when it's simply the fear of injecting a foreign substance into your body. I'm sure that's scary for some people.
Well, as Darkshade tried to point out a couple of pages ago, people are hesitant for a lot of different reasons. But for some reason, I guess since it came from him, a lot of folks can't see past that to see what he was saying, and are more interested in arguing dog whistles and straw men so they can remain entrenched in their echo chambers rather than trying to understand why some people are hesitant.
Care to elaborate? Most of the hesitations in this thread have been from disinformation (including basically everything Darkshade has posted). It's also what I've seen from personal, anecdotal, experience. There's certainly lots of legit reasons for hesitancy. Wolfking brings one up himself being from a mostly unaffected region of the world. Others have as well with health conditions and even religious reasons are understandable (like James Hetfield).
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I find thinking for myself quite easy truthfully.
TBH, while we all think of ourselves first and I think that's totally fair. Once you recognize you are unlikely to have a serious side effect from the vaccine (you only mentioned you are young and healthy, which is great, but some people have known adverse side effects to vaccines from prior experience or have known allergies or other illness that prevents them from being vaccinated). Thinking about others should be next in line and a reason to put up with the potential short term side effects which includes helping those people who legitimately can't be vaccinated by vaccinating yourself. Also, many people don't have side effects at all, so please take that into account too.
A lot of healthy people can carry the virus without even knowing and spreading it to others they care about without knowing. I think about this a lot, well did think about this, which is how would I feel if my parents got seriously sick/died and they contact traced it back to me? I've got to imagine you know someone in your personal life who is susceptible to covid even if you are not. Luckily most people I know, including myself and my parents who were very on the edge, are vaccinated so this worry doesn't really exist anymore for me.
I get all that but are we ever going to get a 100% vaccination rate? That's really what is needed is it not to somehow live with this thing. Everyone has their own morals but we can't control what any other single human being does in their life. It's a huge feat. I can't see it happening.
Current estimates for the required vaccinated population for herd immunity are closer to 80-85%. Even if we don't reach that threshold, the higher the number is, the less intrusive future lockdown measures to contain outbreaks will be needed. (Masks and self isolation also reduce the R0). A higher vaccinated percentage also makes it much more likely outbreaks will be geographically contained.
Another good reason for as high a percentage as possible is that it reduces the length and severity of infection, which overall reduces the chances of more dangerous variants being created.
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I will say my viewpoint comes from mostly ignorance and a lack of information or caring for that matter in result of being largely unaffected so take my views with a grain of salt.
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What part of the world do you live in out of interest?
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We only can't because of the disinformation at this time IMO.
I think people can be very informed and still be hesitant. We (society, not you Marc) seem to equate hesitancy with disinformation, politics, etc... when it's simply the fear of injecting a foreign substance into your body. I'm sure that's scary for some people.
True, but you even admit in this post that disinformation plays a role in hesitancy. Politcs play a role too, which should not be the case for the health of the population, but it no doubt is.
Sure, but my point was that people can be hesitant and it have nothing to do with politics or disinformation.
However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food. That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.
I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.
Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!
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My mate has a pathological fear of needles. He had to be sedated for his holiday vaccinations when we went to Asia.
Key is to identify where these fears have their origin, whether they are based in a real risk, and do our best to counter disinformation that certain individuals and organisations spread.
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What part of the world do you live in out of interest?
Australia.
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We only can't because of the disinformation at this time IMO.
I think people can be very informed and still be hesitant. We (society, not you Marc) seem to equate hesitancy with disinformation, politics, etc... when it's simply the fear of injecting a foreign substance into your body. I'm sure that's scary for some people.
True, but you even admit in this post that disinformation plays a role in hesitancy. Politcs play a role too, which should not be the case for the health of the population, but it no doubt is.
Sure, but my point was that people can be hesitant and it have nothing to do with politics or disinformation.
However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food. That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.
I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.
Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!
I agree with Tim, I can have all the info and facts in the world, I'd still be undecided and hesitant. My indecisiveness doesn't really stem from politics or disinformation I don't think.
I also agree, while I'm a bit of a health and exercise freak, you can't compare something like this to a meal of Mikkey Dees.
And ha, when we use to go to Sydney which we can't do because of this, it's a 12 hour drive. I would drive the whole way myself with only 3 or 4 stops. Even if we only went for 5-6 days, I'd easily take 2 of those days to drive as opposed to flying. Just would rather drive every day of the week.
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However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food. That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.
I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.
Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!
While eating food is not the same as an injection from a pharmaceutical, I'd say there are way more unknowns with what we, as a world, consume daily. This inludes myself who will eat or drink almost anything to at least try it out. The real hesitancy you have alluded to though, I haven't seen that in this thread. People however do have lots of irrational fears, including myself in some things. If someone said, I can't do needles (wow was about to post before XJ's needle fear reference :lol). I would highly suggest they find a way to overcome that fear for this time and then understand they aren't going to be able to take this version of the vaccine because of that innate fear. If they instead presented me with twitter posts about how needles kill people every year (not what's in the needles) and that's why they are scared, I would say they need to be educated.
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However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food. That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.
I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.
Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!
While eating food is not the same as an injection from a pharmaceutical, I'd say there are way more unknowns with what we, as a world, consume daily. This inludes myself who will eat or drink almost anything to at least try it out. The real hesitancy you have alluded to though, I haven't seen that in this thread. People however do have lots of irrational fears, including myself in some things. If someone said, I can't do needles (wow was about to post before XJ's needle fear reference :lol). I would highly suggest they find a way to overcome that fear for this time and then understand they aren't going to be able to take this version of the vaccine because of that innate fear. If they instead presented me with twitter posts about how needles kill people every year (not what's in the needles) and that's why they are scared, I would say they need to be educated.
That all depends on your diet and food choices as an individual.
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However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food. That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.
I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.
Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!
While eating food is not the same as an injection from a pharmaceutical, I'd say there are way more unknowns with what we, as a world, consume daily. This inludes myself who will eat or drink almost anything to at least try it out. The real hesitancy you have alluded to though, I haven't seen that in this thread. People however do have lots of irrational fears, including myself in some things. If someone said, I can't do needles (wow was about to post before XJ's needle fear reference :lol). I would highly suggest they find a way to overcome that fear for this time and then understand they aren't going to be able to take this version of the vaccine because of that innate fear. If they instead presented me with twitter posts about how needles kill people every year (not what's in the needles) and that's why they are scared, I would say they need to be educated.
That all depends on your diet and food choices as an individual.
Of course, and my perspective comes from an American where we eat like shit. I know you don't, it's just an example of how many people put questionable substances in their body without regard, but won't take a vaccination that has now passed 6 months of massive data to prove it's not only effective but safe.
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I think in general he has a semi-reasonable point. Vaccines are manufactured by companies with very stringent quality control, multiple international and national agencies approving them, so you know exactly what is in them. Whereas the rice in your grocery store might have more arsenic or not depending on where it was sourced that month, or how it was washed, or whatever. There's a lot of factors that are opaque to the average food shopper.
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However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food. That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.
I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.
You actually can, because you are ingesting the nutrients from the foods you eat. This affects your body and your health. If you eat something your body doesn't agree with, it will cause your stomach to become upset. You'll then throw up or throw up the other end. This is called Food Poisoning.
The processing of the foods by how they feed the animals, treat the animals, and how the workers handle the carcasses, all affect the final meat product that is sold in the grocery stores.
I just had to watch this documentary and it's a damn good insight into where our food comes from and all that is involved from the farming of the animal, to the plant processing (including the workers), to the grocery store shelves.
The reasons for the rise in cases of E.Coli outbreaks in the foods, as an example.
Food, Inc. (https://youtu.be/GB4flBxNpuc)
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However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food. That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.
I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.
Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!
While eating food is not the same as an injection from a pharmaceutical, I'd say there are way more unknowns with what we, as a world, consume daily. This inludes myself who will eat or drink almost anything to at least try it out. The real hesitancy you have alluded to though, I haven't seen that in this thread. People however do have lots of irrational fears, including myself in some things. If someone said, I can't do needles (wow was about to post before XJ's needle fear reference :lol). I would highly suggest they find a way to overcome that fear for this time and then understand they aren't going to be able to take this version of the vaccine because of that innate fear. If they instead presented me with twitter posts about how needles kill people every year (not what's in the needles) and that's why they are scared, I would say they need to be educated.
That all depends on your diet and food choices as an individual.
Of course, and my perspective comes from an American where we eat like shit. I know you don't, it's just an example of how many people put questionable substances in their body without regard, but won't take a vaccination that has now passed 6 months of massive data to prove it's not only effective but safe.
Yeah, I thought you were speaking on behalf of the population on a whole, I should have mentioned that. Getting everyone to change their diet to eat better could be a similar analogy in people not wanting the jab to take it up really. No matter how much info out there that a certain diet is bad, people won't change. They have all the facts but are hesitant to change.
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However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food. That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.
I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.
You actually can, because you are ingesting the nutrients from the foods you eat. This affects your body and your health. If you eat something your body doesn't agree with, it will cause your stomach to become upset. You'll then throw up or throw up the other end. This is called Food Poisoning.
The processing of the foods by how they feed the animals, treat the animals, and how the workers handle the carcasses, all affect the final meat product that is sold in the grocery stores.
I just had to watch this documentary and it's a damn good insight into where our food comes from and all that is involved from the farming of the animal, to the plant processing (including the workers), to the grocery store shelves.
The reasons for the rise in cases of E.Coli outbreaks in the foods, as an example.
Food, Inc. (https://youtu.be/GB4flBxNpuc)
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
Obviously, I don't know everything that goes into a fucking sausage. I guess our opinions differ then. To me, I just cannot equate a food choice to an injection choice.
I just think real hesitancy boils down to a feeling of a loss of control. Once you inject a substance into your body, there's no turning back. Kind of like stepping on a plane for me.
Look, I'm not here to argue about fucking food. My point in jumping into the conversation was that I feel for those that have a fear, a legitimate fear. I never had disinformation about planes. I had good information, but I was still too scared to fly. When the ironic thing is that I probably put my family in more danger by driving from Massachusetts to Florida 35+ times.
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However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food. That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.
I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.
You actually can, because you are ingesting the nutrients from the foods you eat. This affects your body and your health. If you eat something your body doesn't agree with, it will cause your stomach to become upset. You'll then throw up or throw up the other end. This is called Food Poisoning.
The processing of the foods by how they feed the animals, treat the animals, and how the workers handle the carcasses, all affect the final meat product that is sold in the grocery stores.
I just had to watch this documentary and it's a damn good insight into where our food comes from and all that is involved from the farming of the animal, to the plant processing (including the workers), to the grocery store shelves.
The reasons for the rise in cases of E.Coli outbreaks in the foods, as an example.
Food, Inc. (https://youtu.be/GB4flBxNpuc)
nah mate, you really can't. If you eat something that doesn't agree with you, then you don't eat that type of food, simple.
If you choose your diet wisely and eat the best you can, you can't compare the two. The average American diet I agree is shit but eating a Big Mac is not that same thing.
The food people eat causes problems because of how much and how often they eat it. I love Mikkey Dee's as much as the next bloke even though I'm a health guy, but eating a Big Mac once a month is not going to do a damn thing to my health or my body. Eating it every day, that's a different story. You have pretty much a wide variety of control over your food intake.
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However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food. That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.
I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.
You actually can, because you are ingesting the nutrients from the foods you eat. This affects your body and your health. If you eat something your body doesn't agree with, it will cause your stomach to become upset. You'll then throw up or throw up the other end. This is called Food Poisoning.
The processing of the foods by how they feed the animals, treat the animals, and how the workers handle the carcasses, all affect the final meat product that is sold in the grocery stores.
I just had to watch this documentary and it's a damn good insight into where our food comes from and all that is involved from the farming of the animal, to the plant processing (including the workers), to the grocery store shelves.
The reasons for the rise in cases of E.Coli outbreaks in the foods, as an example.
Food, Inc. (https://youtu.be/GB4flBxNpuc)
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
Obviously, I don't know everything that goes into a fucking sausage. I guess our opinions differ then. To me, I just cannot equate a food choice to an injection choice.
I just think real hesitancy boils down to a feeling of a loss of control. Once you inject a substance into your body, there's no turning back. Kind of like stepping on a plane for me.
Look, I'm not here to argue about fucking food. My point in jumping into the conversation was that I feel for those that have a fear, a legitimate fear. I never had disinformation about planes. I had good information, but I was still too scared to fly. When the ironic thing is that I probably put my family in more danger by driving from Massachusetts to Florida 35+ times.
Well said. If eat something bad, I throw it up and it's out of my body. The vaccine is in me then you can't reverse that.
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This is totally relevant to the discussion...
Edible Vaccines (https://allianceforscience.cornell.edu/blog/2020/05/gmo-tomato-as-edible-covid-vaccine-mexican-scientists-work-to-make-it-a-reality/)
Regulatory and biosafety obstacles, rather than technical and experimental constraints, could delay the arrival of edible vaccines to our tables and hospitals, especially in the countries most in need.
Although many countries on all continents develop, or have developed, GM crops on an experimental level, only 26 nations currently have regulations implemented for their commercial use. The fact that so many countries lack legislation, or use backward and cumbersome regulatory frameworks, such as the one employed by the European Union, could increase the final cost of bringing the edible vaccine from the laboratory to the market, making it difficult for small and medium-sized companies or public institutions to develop this technology.
In the case of Mexico, where they are already working on the development of an edible vaccine in tomato plants against COVID-19, local scientists are dealing with difficult times under the mandate of a president who has repeatedly declared himself against the use of GM crops and who appointed a scientist famous for being a staunch GM opponent as director of CONACYT, the government entity that regulates the national science budget. Nor can we forget the recent problem of Mexican cotton growers, who aren’t receiving new permits for the cultivation of GMOs by the current government..
“Given the current contingency situation for the COVID-19 we are experiencing, it will undoubtedly make us rethink the legislation of the GMOs that apply not only in Mexico but in Latin America,” Garza noted. “What is currently happening allows us to rethink whether we are really capable as countries of being able to face a pandemic of such magnitude without using the full potential that GMOs offer us for the development of vaccines, especially for developing countries … The benefits of biotechnology must be shown to society not as an evil, but as an effective solution to many of the problems that we currently have in the region.”
Paradoxically, if the investigation into this promising edible vaccine — created in the Mexican public sector — progresses successfully, it is highly likely that its development towards the clinical phase and productive escalation would move north, to the US or Canada, where companies are already working in molecular pharming aimed at COVID-19 and have the world’s most agile GMO regulatory frameworks. This could happen despite high-level research centers and top scientist working in agricultural biotechnology in Mexico, such as CIMMYT, CINVESTAV and INIFAP, as well as local universities with biopharming capabilities.
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However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food. That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.
I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.
Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!
While eating food is not the same as an injection from a pharmaceutical, I'd say there are way more unknowns with what we, as a world, consume daily. This inludes myself who will eat or drink almost anything to at least try it out. The real hesitancy you have alluded to though, I haven't seen that in this thread. People however do have lots of irrational fears, including myself in some things. If someone said, I can't do needles (wow was about to post before XJ's needle fear reference :lol). I would highly suggest they find a way to overcome that fear for this time and then understand they aren't going to be able to take this version of the vaccine because of that innate fear. If they instead presented me with twitter posts about how needles kill people every year (not what's in the needles) and that's why they are scared, I would say they need to be educated.
That all depends on your diet and food choices as an individual.
Of course, and my perspective comes from an American where we eat like shit. I know you don't, it's just an example of how many people put questionable substances in their body without regard, but won't take a vaccination that has now passed 6 months of massive data to prove it's not only effective but safe.
Yeah, I thought you were speaking on behalf of the population on a whole, I should have mentioned that. Getting everyone to change their diet to eat better could be a similar analogy in people not wanting the jab to take it up really. No matter how much info out there that a certain diet is bad, people won't change. They have all the facts but are hesitant to change.
Well, of course being healthier will help you, but it doesn't stop a virus from spreading and mutating. Eventually there will be people, mostly older, who are susceptible and will die. The average life expectancy of a human in the US has gone down in the last year for example. https://www.npr.org/2021/02/18/968791431/american-life-expectancy-dropped-by-a-full-year-in-the-first-half-of-2020#:~:text=Life%20expectancy%20at%20birth%20for,0.9%20year%20decrease%20from%202019. (https://www.npr.org/2021/02/18/968791431/american-life-expectancy-dropped-by-a-full-year-in-the-first-half-of-2020#:~:text=Life%20expectancy%20at%20birth%20for,0.9%20year%20decrease%20from%202019.)
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However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food. That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.
I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.
Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!
While eating food is not the same as an injection from a pharmaceutical, I'd say there are way more unknowns with what we, as a world, consume daily. This inludes myself who will eat or drink almost anything to at least try it out. The real hesitancy you have alluded to though, I haven't seen that in this thread. People however do have lots of irrational fears, including myself in some things. If someone said, I can't do needles (wow was about to post before XJ's needle fear reference :lol). I would highly suggest they find a way to overcome that fear for this time and then understand they aren't going to be able to take this version of the vaccine because of that innate fear. If they instead presented me with twitter posts about how needles kill people every year (not what's in the needles) and that's why they are scared, I would say they need to be educated.
That all depends on your diet and food choices as an individual.
Of course, and my perspective comes from an American where we eat like shit. I know you don't, it's just an example of how many people put questionable substances in their body without regard, but won't take a vaccination that has now passed 6 months of massive data to prove it's not only effective but safe.
Yeah, I thought you were speaking on behalf of the population on a whole, I should have mentioned that. Getting everyone to change their diet to eat better could be a similar analogy in people not wanting the jab to take it up really. No matter how much info out there that a certain diet is bad, people won't change. They have all the facts but are hesitant to change.
Well, of course being healthier will help you, but it doesn't stop a virus from spreading and mutating. Eventually there will be people, mostly older, who are susceptible and will die. The average life expectancy of a human in the US has gone down in the last year for example. https://www.npr.org/2021/02/18/968791431/american-life-expectancy-dropped-by-a-full-year-in-the-first-half-of-2020#:~:text=Life%20expectancy%20at%20birth%20for,0.9%20year%20decrease%20from%202019. (https://www.npr.org/2021/02/18/968791431/american-life-expectancy-dropped-by-a-full-year-in-the-first-half-of-2020#:~:text=Life%20expectancy%20at%20birth%20for,0.9%20year%20decrease%20from%202019.)
I'm not saying it does.
Regardless of the pandemic, I can see life expectancy declining far into the future for a variety of different reasons.
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Anyway, I had to suffer for one day, now I'm fine. Fever has gone and headache too, I'm not 100% alright but overall I'm fine, I had to endure through it all for just one day in the end.
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I think there are just like two words of people even within places like the US. You have the people who never changed one thing about their behavior because of the pandemic, and if they were lucky enough not to have experienced anything that would change their mind they just assume that everyone else was like them, not taking precautions or making voluntary sacrifices. A few of my in-laws are this way - they are blown away when they see family who still wear masks, they joke about "child abuse" "taking peoples kids away" when they see them wearing masks. They think the whole thing was made up, and ran its natural course, regardless of what precautions people took. Everyone who made some kind of sacrifice and even took the marginal personal risk of getting the vaccine get their efforts demeaned and devalued, of course THEY aren't part of the reason why the pandemic wasn't as bad as it could have been. Because to admit that would be to admit that they (my in-laws) are part of the reason why the pandemic has been as bad as it's going.
It's as bad as it is because of disinfo coming from the entirety of the federal government early on, as well as CCP censoring doctors and scientists in 2019.
The rest unraveled from there. Thankfully, the internet has slowed the process of the US becoming a totalitarian state, a little... Thousands, maybe millions, are waking up to what's been going on lately. Joe Biden and the Federal Government want to go door to door with a list of 'bad' people, eh? Sounds eerily familiar.
I miss this in all the kerfuffle, but this stops way short of addressing my point. Sure governments and elected leaders may have made less than ideal decisions at many places in the chain of events, but that doesn't mean everyone gets to pass the buck on personal responsibility. You're so concerned about totalitarianism, why do you consider protocols to minimize the spread and protect the elderly and minorities to be so dire? The state doing nothing to help the weak and elderly is a lot more like the attitude of totalitarian states you keep mentioning than anything that's going on currently in the West. It's called tyranny of the majority.
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We're having a surge in FL. Local governments are discussing mask mandates again, even for the vaccinated. Close to 100% of the new cases are unvaccinated folks. I sure hope this segment of the population has a collective change of heart.
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At the moment, I'm not pro or anti vax at all. Just very skeptical and luckily my age and health means I'm happy to see how things play out for a bit. Again, we are seeing ramifications from the virus, but nothing like over there.
I don't get why you want to get the vaccine but what would it take to convince you? I really want to know. Is the hesitancy religion? Politics? Ignorance? I could understand this mindset in say March of this year. But we have too much data about the efficacy of the vaccines so hopefully without chastising you, what is your reasoning ?
But why does there have to be a reason? And by that I mean, conscious, logical, data-driven reason? XJ wrote something like this too. Don't you ever just do (or not do) something because it feels right/not right? I'm a scientist, in the sense that I have an Engineering degree from a major university, I have an MBA from a top 10, maybe 15 business school, and I'm Six Sigma certified. I understand the quantitative means to arriving at a decision.
I did none of that when I got my shot. I WANTED the shot. Simple as that. There are entire BOOKS written on the "irrationality" of man's decision-making process, and yet here, we want everyone to be precisely data driven and in lock-step with the data that we feel is of importance. I pimp this book so much I should get a cut of the proceeds at this point, but "How Risky Is It, Really?" by Dave Ropeik. We - as humans - are HORRIBLE at this. HORRIBLE. We smoke. We screw without protection. We drive without seatbelts. We drink diet soda. We scream to ban guns. We complain immigrants are criminals. Our FEARS do not match the data in a wildly excessive amount of cases. Why is ANYONE surprised that it's happening here, and why are we expecting anything different? I would posit it's selfishness, and our own fears (meaning we demand others comply with our wishes and we're terrified if/when they don't), but I don't think people are going to like that answer very much.
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There's always a reason Stads. Against medication, fear, you think you're healthy enough and don't want it. Religious.
There's always a reason. Now he doesn't have to answer because it is a "personal" choice.
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Well my little sister who is anti-vax, and has told me she won't get the vaccine because she had constantly been exposed via her church (had many cases of covid throughout the 1.5 years) and step son (who lived with them while he was sick with covid) and never tested positive. Thinking she had some sort of natural immunity.... now has covid. So does her husband. So do her two young children. The ignorance amazes me and they are paying for it now.
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Damn... I hope they get through it safely.
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Well my little sister who is anti-vax, and has told me she won't get the vaccine because she had constantly been exposed via her church (had many cases of covid throughout the 1.5 years) and step son (who lived with them while he was sick with covid) and never tested positive. Thinking she had some sort of natural immunity.... now has covid. So does her husband. So do her two young children. The ignorance amazes me and they are paying for it now.
How bad are they?
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My nieces are mostly fine. My sister and her husband are dealing with fevers and fatigue.
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We're having a surge in FL. Local governments are discussing mask mandates again, even for the vaccinated. Close to 100% of the new cases are unvaccinated folks. I sure hope this segment of the population has a collective change of heart.
“I could foresee that in certain parts of the country, there could be a reintroduction of indoor mask mandates, distancing and occupancy limits” in the coming months, said Lawrence Gostin, director of the World Health Organization’s Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law.
There is no way that there will be renewed mask mandates, business shut downs, or any other major restrictions in the US.
Boy, that post of Chris' sure didn't age well. ;D
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Probably not the first time that could be said...
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We're having a surge in FL. Local governments are discussing mask mandates again, even for the vaccinated. Close to 100% of the new cases are unvaccinated folks. I sure hope this segment of the population has a collective change of heart.
Did FL ever have a mask mandate? I guess maybe in local areas by the way you worded it. But yeah, FL is one of the worst states with new cases now.
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We're having a surge in FL. Local governments are discussing mask mandates again, even for the vaccinated. Close to 100% of the new cases are unvaccinated folks. I sure hope this segment of the population has a collective change of heart.
Did FL ever have a mask mandate? I guess maybe in local areas by the way you worded it. But yeah, FL is one of the worst states with new cases now.
Not worse than Missouri unless Arkansas has surpassed us. It's still getting worse in elderly care facilities. 99% of overall new infections are unvaccinated. And now, I heard this morning that we may we have another new strain. Hurray for personal freedoms! :tdwn
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Probably not the first time that could be said...
True... someone pointed out to me that one of mine from the beginning of the outbreak last year didn't quite pan out. :lol
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We're having a surge in FL. Local governments are discussing mask mandates again, even for the vaccinated. Close to 100% of the new cases are unvaccinated folks. I sure hope this segment of the population has a collective change of heart.
Did FL ever have a mask mandate? I guess maybe in local areas by the way you worded it. But yeah, FL is one of the worst states with new cases now.
Not worse than Missouri unless Arkansas has surpassed us. It's still getting worse in elderly care facilities. 99% of overall new infections are unvaccinated. And now, we have another new strain. Hurray for personal freedoms! :tdwn
Yeah, "one of the worst" I didn't look into who is the worst, but FL has been on the list of worst states recently.
Also, TBH, I'm not entirely sure there is going to be lockdowns again. I'm not 100% on that thought, but I do feel like things will have to get a lot worse than it currently is before they start imposing restrictions again. I think people will really uproar if they have to again. The reality is, covid isn't going anywhere and we have to live with it.
Having said that, two tours recently got rescheduled. Deftones/Gojira and Nightwish all got pushed back to 2022 over the past few days. That is concerning and could be a sign that restrictions could come back. Or it could be that those tours featured foreign bands that may have issues touring the US. I'm not sure as neither gave much details on why they are being rescheduled, but I just am very iffy if restrictions at this point will make any sense when we have proven vaccines that work. When you read things like 99% of deaths are from unvaccinated people when anyone can easily get a vaccine. It's just on the individual at this point, so I'm not sold on the idea of hurting business' to protect people who choose to not be protected.
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Probably not the first time that could be said...
I swear Chad has a whole big file of posts that he's just waiting to throw back into people's faces. He's done it to me many times. :lol
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Probably not the first time that could be said...
I swear Chad has a whole big file of posts that he's just waiting to throw back into people's faces. He's done it to me many times. :lol
Jesus fucking christ that's depressing.
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Just spell wrong RJ and distract him. Works for me. :lol
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We're having a surge in FL. Local governments are discussing mask mandates again, even for the vaccinated. Close to 100% of the new cases are unvaccinated folks. I sure hope this segment of the population has a collective change of heart.
Did FL ever have a mask mandate? I guess maybe in local areas by the way you worded it. But yeah, FL is one of the worst states with new cases now.
Not worse than Missouri unless Arkansas has surpassed us. It's still getting worse in elderly care facilities. 99% of overall new infections are unvaccinated. And now, we have another new strain. Hurray for personal freedoms! :tdwn
Yeah, "one of the worst" I didn't look into who is the worst, but FL has been on the list of worst states recently.
Also, TBH, I'm not entirely sure there is going to be lockdowns again. I'm not 100% on that thought, but I do feel like things will have to get a lot worse than it currently is before they start imposing restrictions again. I think people will really uproar if they have to again. The reality is, covid isn't going anywhere and we have to live with it.
Having said that, two tours recently got rescheduled. Deftones/Gojira and Nightwish all got pushed back to 2022 over the past few days. That is concerning and could be a sign that restrictions could come back. Or it could be that those tours featured foreign bands that may have issues touring the US. I'm not sure as neither gave much details on why they are being rescheduled, but I just am very iffy if restrictions at this point will make any sense when we have proven vaccines that work. When you read things like 99% of deaths are from unvaccinated people when anyone can easily get a vaccine. It's just on the individual at this point, so I'm not sold on the idea of hurting business' to protect people who choose to not be protected.
I just saw that In Flames had to drop from the Megadeth tour due to "International Visa Issues" so Hatebreed is the replacement.
Could be that Gojira and Nightwish are also having "international visa issues" as well preventing them from touring elsewhere. Nightwish also had to reschedule their Latin American dates as well.
Lamb of God was the only one to give an actual reason for In Flames dropping. The others don't even mention anything at all, only saying "we will be back, sorry for the reschedule"
This article has an interesting figure with more than a "yes" or "no" response for the question: "Have you personally received at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine, or not? As you may know, an FDA-authorized vaccine for COVID-19 is now available for free to all adults in the U.S. Do you think you will…?"
Demographic patterns in vaccine uptake and intentions are similar to those measured in previous surveys, with large majorities of older adults, those with serious health conditions, college graduates, and Democrats saying they have gotten at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine. Black and Hispanic adults along with younger adults remain somewhat more likely than their counterparts to say they will “wait and see” before getting vaccinated, while Republicans, rural residents, and White Evangelical Christians continue to be disproportionately more likely to say they will definitely not get vaccinated.
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-june-2021/
There are 5 different responses to this question.
- I already got it
- As soon as possible
- wait and see
- Only if required
- Definitely not
It would be interesting to know out of those vaccinated, how many got it because it was required? If these people were not required to get the vaccine, would they have been in the "Wait and See" or the "Definitely Not" response group?
That data would add to the overall perspective of those that are unvaccinated.
And I noticed that by using the term Unvaccinated, you are lumping 3 groups of people into one label. From what I quoted above, these 3 groups are not all the same either. It's why I asked if people were not required to take the vaccine, where would they be lumped. Wouldn't that change the demographics for the identity of these 3 groups, as it becomes 2? Those who will "wait and see" and those who are "definitely not".
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After I posted that, I saw the same thing about In Flames which made me think it was a covid travel thing, but Gojira is still doing their headline US tour (actually added 3 dates now too). So I don't know.
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After I posted that, I saw the same thing about In Flames which made me think it was a covid travel thing, but Gojira is still doing their headline US tour (actually added 3 dates now too). So I don't know.
Oh yeah, didn't snap about that. Who knows with the Deftones/Gojira tour then.
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Probably not the first time that could be said...
I swear Chad has a whole big file of posts that he's just waiting to throw back into people's faces. He's done it to me many times. :lol
Jesus fucking christ that's depressing.
:biggrin:
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I don't think there will be full on lockdowns again because of how economically devastating they are, plus about half of the population has been fully vaccinated. No, there won't be any national lockdowns or even mask mandates. There will be "outbreaks" in various regions. If you want to know where the outbreaks are going to be, just look at the Trump vs Biden election map. If a state is red, they're going to be having outbreaks, especially in the fall and winter. If a state is blue, they probably won't be having any major outbreaks. Just look at where cases are on the rise right now.
There is a hardcore group, I'd say probably about 1/3 or maybe 1/4 of the general population who are just not going to get vaccinated. These are the people who will be arguing that the "china virus" is "nothing to be concerned about" and "overblown" and "just like a cold" from their ICU beds in the hospital, while the doctor is explaining why they have to intubate them. My sister-in-law is works in a hospital and she tells me that practically everyone who is in there now with a Covid-19 infection are the unvaccinated. Many only realizing in their final moments the horrible mistake they've made. It's simultaneously sad and infuriating. Sad because it didn't have to be like this and infuriating because there are still people out there pushing bullshit conspiracy theories and misinformation about the vaccines and it's literally killing people. A healthy portion of those deaths 100% preventable. :facepalm:
[/size]I get the numbers, I can read, but it's not THAT definitive. 10% of Democrats and 37% of Republicans live in homes where NO ONE is vaccinated. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/30/us/vaccinated-households-poll-results.html) That's not all or nothing; these are trends.And we've had a long conversation already that just because you don't get vaccinated doesn't mean you're a racist, bigoted moron who doesn't understand basic science. Perpetuating those myths does NOTHING for improving the numbers.
Weird. The words "racist" "bigoted" and "moron" appear nowhere in my post. I wish you would stop doing shit like this. You are like a strawman machine.
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I get the numbers, I can read, but it's not THAT definitive. 10% of Democrats and 37% of Republicans live in homes where NO ONE is vaccinated. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/30/us/vaccinated-households-poll-results.html) That's not all or nothing; these are trends.
And we've had a long conversation already that just because you don't get vaccinated doesn't mean you're a racist, bigoted moron who doesn't understand basic science.
Perpetuating those myths does NOTHING for improving the numbers.
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It's not surprising because there are deaths that are preventable 100% but people still choose to do these things. It's not just Covid-19 and vaccinations.
The only ones getting bad are the ones who chose not to vaccinate and are likely bad in health already.
The difference is. They know the consequences, they know it's preventable, yet they still choose to do it.
I hate to be bleak, but when you look at it that way, they chose death. And wouldn't it be a form of natural selection, darwin award worthy, and weeding out the stupid?
How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.
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How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.
Probably not too many..
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It's not surprising because there are deaths that are preventable 100% but people still choose to do these things. It's not just Covid-19 and vaccinations.
The only ones getting bad are the ones who chose not to vaccinate and are likely bad in health already.
The difference is. They know the consequences, they know it's preventable, yet they still choose to do it.
I hate to be bleak, but when you look at it that way, they chose death. And wouldn't it be a form of natural selection, darwin award worthy, and weeding out the stupid?
How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.
So you are saying we have reached natural selection of the human race all simply based on people who are reluctant to get vaccinated?
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How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.
Probably not too many..
And those are the people who we, as a society, have a responsibility to protect by getting vaccinated ourselves.
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Keep in mind that chart is for cases, not deaths, which have significantly dropped, long before any vaccine roll outs.
No they didn't.
(https://i.imgur.com/9OYFrVa.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/KPXkXUn.png)
Data taken from here: https://covid.ourworldindata.org/data/owid-covid-data.csv
The data proves we are out of the pandemic, and those not vaccinated don't necessarily need it. This doesn't account for those with antibodies.
See, the correct response there would be "Oh it seems like my previous statement was a lie/false. I apologise."
I wasn't lying or intentionally trying to spread a falsehood. I specifically recall reading about, and seeing, cases dropping (or maybe it was deaths dropping) before there was any widespread vaccinations. There may have been some public figures who put on a show early on, but the average US citizen who wanted a vaccine hadn't gotten one yet. The 1st chart kind of shows that.
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Could it be that most isolated so it dropped the rate?
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:millahhhh
How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.
Probably not too many..
And those are the people who we, as a society, have a responsibility to protect by getting vaccinated ourselves.
About how many people is that?
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And here's the point: if the "I'm not getting vaccinated!" crowd is somehow "polluted" by the mis- and dis-information out there, why are the "we should ALL be vaccinated NOW!" crowd somehow immune, even if it's a matter of degree? Why does the focus on these issues - falsehoods, conspiracies - always seem to flow along party/ideological lines?
There's a difference between forming your opinion on what you see on social media vs. what the data shows and it's hard to argue against the data but very easy to see how someone's claims are polluted when they make little sense when you look at what they are basing their thoughts on. I don't know why this happens to also fall along party lines, that's very concerning to me, but it also follows along education levels too which makes more sense.
I don't disagree with that at all. And the data is pretty clear. But there are other aspects to this that transcend vaccines, and that transcend that hard data. Again, Florida and California, Texas and Connecticut. They attacked this very differently, and yet have results that are if not identical then at least consistent. I don't see this as strictly about data and graphs.
Today's discussion hasn't really been about lockdowns so the comparisons of how states handled it, to me at least, wasn't part of my thought process. I think there's still a lot of debate about the right and wrong ways to handle covid. I'm not sure I know the answers either.
NJ, for example, was one of the worst states in terms of infections/deaths and had some of the strictest restrictions. Some of it might be explainable, as the state was hit early before there was mass testing and too many unknowns at the time on how to help people with infections, and they had their mistake of putting covid patients into LTC facilities. Also the most densely populated state so people in close quarters are very likely to spread. So while one can say, the restrictions helped make the numbers not be as bad as they could be, they were still so bad, that maybe the restrictions hurt more than they helped. I don't know. There may likely never be data that shows that to be the case. However, what we do have data on is how the vaccines work. NJ is one of the top states for vaccinations and we've actually seen some days of 0 deaths. NJ has been fully opened and things are normal here. While I don't think I will ever know how our governence truly affected the outcomes, I know for a fact as of today, the vaccinations are why we are here.
This doesn't take into account that on the day of Joe Biden’s alleged inauguration, the World Health Organization (WHO) quietly issued new guidance on the manner in which polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests were to be conducted and reported. It warned against reporting someone as having COVID-19, just because the test had been positive, when they did not actually present any symptoms.
https://www.who.int/news/item/20-01-2021-who-information-notice-for-ivd-users-2020-05 (https://www.who.int/news/item/20-01-2021-who-information-notice-for-ivd-users-2020-05)
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So Biden was allegedly inaugurated? That didn't actually happen?
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:lol
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Darkshade, it looks like you search for anything to debunk the virus.
It affects those who are older and not in God health. Do you not look at those as important to those who are younger and in good health?
You know those in good health can still spread it?
So Biden was allegedly inaugurated? That didn't actually happen?
Tim, I love you. :lol
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Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".
FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.
Fair, but (and on this we do not see eye-to-eye), why should someone's decision to not get vaccinated then also put my health at risk? This is what I take issue with. I think public and private institutions should have the ability to limit access to services and/or facilities for those that put others' health at risk because of their decisions / actions. If they want to put their own health at risk - hey, go for it. But don't in turn put mine at risk.
I think we need to develop quick/rapid/instant tests that are accurate for those that refuse to vaccinate. If they have an alternative, then they can get access to services/facilities.
Why? Because you have no "right" to a zero-risk existence. That's the fallacy. You're at risk every single day based on the acts/omissions/decisions of others. Some obvious and direct, others not so obvious and more consequential. No rights are absolute; in a democratic society, rights are relative, relative to those rights of those around you. I don't have the right to kill you... unless you abuse my right to privacy. You have the right to free speech... unless you abuse my right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness (you cannot slander/libel me). All rights have some level of compromise as they butt against someone else's right, and so here with the added proviso that you arguably don't have the "right" that is being compromised to begin with. I've often suggested that when having this conversation, insert "abortion" in with "vaccine" because the premise is the same, the rights in question are the same, and the analysis is the same.
We KNOW that an abortion - by an individual woman - has societal impacts. There is cost, there is impact on things like crime, etc. But do we MANDATE abortions? Absolutely not, and when legislature gets uppity in terms of putting any framework around abortion, WE get uppity (myself included). All on the premise that a woman's rights to privacy are sacrosanct, regardless of the impact to others or society.
Similarly, people have no "right" to go see a concert, or a sporting event, or crossing a border, or <insert pretty much anything>. So, if those rights are removed for whatever reason, then my response is 'suck-it-up-buttercup'. We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to smoke on a plane was removed, or smoke indoors. We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to drive while impaired was removed. We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to carry 4oz bottles of liquid on a plane was removed. So if a company or gov't wants to limit "rights" because of vaccination or COVID status, I don't see where that is out of line.
Ironic you chose abortion as your analogy, because some States essentially MANDATE no-abortion, regardless of the impact to the individual.
Yea... but...
Some Americans, including Thomas Jefferson and George Mason, incorporated the concept of the pursuit of happiness into man's natural, or inherent, universal rights. Although not legally binding, cancelling concerts, social events, ball games, etc... is not infringing on anyone's rights, as long as it is temporary. But then, there is nothing more permanent than a temporary government policy, or something like that.
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Do you think they need to clear customs before coming into the US?
Considering the many months in 2019 when CCP knew about the virus leak, and they still let people travel from China to Europe and the United States via airplane...
YES
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:millahhhh
How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.
Probably not too many..
And those are the people who we, as a society, have a responsibility to protect by getting vaccinated ourselves.
About how many people is that?
Enough that they warrant us being mature, banding together, and doing what we can to make sure they survive.
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:millahhhh
How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.
Probably not too many..
And those are the people who we, as a society, have a responsibility to protect by getting vaccinated ourselves.
About how many people is that?
Enough that they warrant us being mature, banding together, and doing what we can to make sure they survive.
Stop being an adult RJ.
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As I said above, the meter flips, for me, at government mandate. I get it, and I complied, but some of the actions of the governors during the early stages of the pandemic were on the other side of that equation. That doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong, especially in the case of emergency, but the emergency - the overwhelming of our healthcare system - has passed.
That's what I was getting at with the pandemic being essentially over in May-June 2020, that's around the time deaths stopped being reported en masse in the news media, in the US at least.
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This doesn't take into account that on the day of Joe Biden’s alleged inauguration, the World Health Organization (WHO) quietly issued new guidance on the manner in which polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests were to be conducted and reported.
Is another one of those "spirit of what he's saying" moments?
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This doesn't take into account that on the day of Joe Biden’s alleged inauguration, the World Health Organization (WHO) quietly issued new guidance on the manner in which polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests were to be conducted and reported.
Is another one of those "spirit of what he's saying" moments?
Depends. "Alleged inauguration" is pretty indefensible, and using that term says a lot that is unflattering about Darkshade. But if the point to be discussed is what the WHO did, deflecting that to fixate on how silly "alleged inauguration" is says more about the person arguing with Darkshade than it does about him.
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:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
When someone leads off with "Joe Biden's alleged inauguration", pretty much everything they say after that is considered, by me at least, to be trash.
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Let's bring in Ben Gates to figure this out.
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:millahhhh
How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.
Probably not too many..
And those are the people who we, as a society, have a responsibility to protect by getting vaccinated ourselves.
About how many people is that?
Enough that they warrant us being mature, banding together, and doing what we can to make sure they survive.
It's so they can enjoy their lives without fear of catching the virus and dying.
It's to give them an ease so they can safely enjoy the many things all humans should be able to enjoy.
But yet, we still do things to others that make it harder for others to enjoy these supposed benefits and comforts of life, their death is just gradual. Gradual killings are less obvious, but still do the same thing as Covid, just slower.
We have since the beginning of time been trying to prevent death. There's reasons for the saying "We are living on borrowed time."
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This doesn't take into account that on the day of Joe Biden’s alleged inauguration, the World Health Organization (WHO) quietly issued new guidance on the manner in which polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests were to be conducted and reported.
Is another one of those "spirit of what he's saying" moments?
It's another of those "WTF is he saying" moments.
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I don't think there will be full on lockdowns again because of how economically devastating they are, plus about half of the population has been fully vaccinated. No, there won't be any national lockdowns or even mask mandates. There will be "outbreaks" in various regions. If you want to know where the outbreaks are going to be, just look at the Trump vs Biden election map. If a state is red, they're going to be having outbreaks, especially in the fall and winter. If a state is blue, they probably won't be having any major outbreaks. Just look at where cases are on the rise right now.
There is a hardcore group, I'd say probably about 1/3 or maybe 1/4 of the general population who are just not going to get vaccinated. These are the people who will be arguing that the "china virus" is "nothing to be concerned about" and "overblown" and "just like a cold" from their ICU beds in the hospital, while the doctor is explaining why they have to intubate them. My sister-in-law is works in a hospital and she tells me that practically everyone who is in there now with a Covid-19 infection are the unvaccinated. Many only realizing in their final moments the horrible mistake they've made. It's simultaneously sad and infuriating. Sad because it didn't have to be like this and infuriating because there are still people out there pushing bullshit conspiracy theories and misinformation about the vaccines and it's literally killing people. A healthy portion of those deaths 100% preventable. :facepalm:
but what are the average ages of those un-vaccinated on their death beds?
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How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.
Probably not too many..
That could still be tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of people.
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:lol
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So Biden was allegedly inaugurated? That didn't actually happen?
Video footage from 'official' sources doesn't match with video footage from other sources alleged to be from the same day, like from the news cameramen's phones.
Some footage (from broadcasts) shows a bright sunny day, other footage shows a cold, rainy, dreary day.
Why was he sworn in about 15 minutes before noon? I watched it "live" on TV.
Trump is still President until noon, Inauguration Day.
At the very least, it was recorded in multiple takes on multiple days, because Dementia Joe...
At the most, he's not the duly elected representative of the United States federal government, and why DC is fenced up.
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How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.
Probably not too many..
That could still be tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of people.
Hundreds of thousands of people that:
1. Had a health condition that their doctor said it'd be better to not get the vaccine
2. Got Covid
3. Died
Talk about alleged..
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So Biden was allegedly inaugurated? That didn't actually happen?
Video footage from 'official' sources doesn't match with video footage from other sources alleged to be from the same day.
At the very least, it was recorded in multiple takes on multiple days, because Dementia Joe...
At the most, he's not the duly elected representative of the United States federal government, and why DC is fenced up.
This is batshit crazy man.
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So Biden was allegedly inaugurated? That didn't actually happen?
Video footage from 'official' sources doesn't match with video footage from other sources alleged to be from the same day.
At the very least, it was recorded in multiple takes on multiple days, because Dementia Joe...
At the most, he's not the duly elected representative of the United States federal government, and why DC is fenced up.
Can you please tell me the St. Louis Blues didn't actually win the Stanley Cup in 2019? That would make me very happy.
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So Biden was allegedly inaugurated? That didn't actually happen?
Video footage from 'official' sources doesn't match with video footage from other sources alleged to be from the same day.
At the very least, it was recorded in multiple takes on multiple days, because Dementia Joe...
At the most, he's not the duly elected representative of the United States federal government, and why DC is fenced up.
Can you please tell me the St. Louis Blues didn't actually win the Stanley Cup in 2019? That would make me very happy.
:lol
I love you Tim.
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So Biden was allegedly inaugurated? That didn't actually happen?
Video footage from 'official' sources doesn't match with video footage from other sources alleged to be from the same day.
At the very least, it was recorded in multiple takes on multiple days, because Dementia Joe...
At the most, he's not the duly elected representative of the United States federal government, and why DC is fenced up.
This is batshit crazy man.
I tend to believe my lyin' eyes. It's batshit crazy that so many don't see it.
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So Biden was allegedly inaugurated? That didn't actually happen?
Video footage from 'official' sources doesn't match with video footage from other sources alleged to be from the same day.
At the very least, it was recorded in multiple takes on multiple days, because Dementia Joe...
At the most, he's not the duly elected representative of the United States federal government, and why DC is fenced up.
Can you please tell me the St. Louis Blues didn't actually win the Stanley Cup in 2019? That would make me very happy.
Would you settle for me saying they allegedly won?
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So Biden was allegedly inaugurated? That didn't actually happen?
Video footage from 'official' sources doesn't match with video footage from other sources alleged to be from the same day.
At the very least, it was recorded in multiple takes on multiple days, because Dementia Joe...
At the most, he's not the duly elected representative of the United States federal government, and why DC is fenced up.
Can you please tell me the St. Louis Blues didn't actually win the Stanley Cup in 2019? That would make me very happy.
Would you settle for me saying they allegedly won?
I'd allegedly settle for that.
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This stuff is out there, if it can easily be debunked, then debunk it.
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How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.
Probably not too many..
That could still be tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of people.
Hundreds of thousands of people that:
1. Had a health condition that their doctor said it'd be better to not get the vaccine
2. Got Covid
3. Died
Talk about alleged..
Hundreds of thousands of people is "not that many" when you consider the world population of almost 8 billion humans.
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So Biden was allegedly inaugurated? That didn't actually happen?
Video footage from 'official' sources doesn't match with video footage from other sources alleged to be from the same day, like from the news cameramen's phones.
Some footage (from broadcasts) shows a bright sunny day, other footage shows a cold, rainy, dreary day.
Why was he sworn in about 15 minutes before noon? I watched it "live" on TV.
Trump is still President until noon, Inauguration Day.
At the very least, it was recorded in multiple takes on multiple days, because Dementia Joe...
At the most, he's not the duly elected representative of the United States federal government, and why DC is fenced up.
Let's keep focused on that instead of what the WHO did on Jan. 20
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This stuff is out there, if it can easily be debunked, then debunk it.
(https://i.imgflip.com/4c2u0s.jpg)
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So Biden was allegedly inaugurated? That didn't actually happen?
Video footage from 'official' sources doesn't match with video footage from other sources alleged to be from the same day.
At the very least, it was recorded in multiple takes on multiple days, because Dementia Joe...
At the most, he's not the duly elected representative of the United States federal government, and why DC is fenced up.
This is batshit crazy man.
I tend to believe my lyin' eyes. It's batshit crazy that so many don't see it.
The only think deceiving you is yourself.
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How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.
Probably not too many..
That could still be tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of people.
Hundreds of thousands of people that:
1. Had a health condition that their doctor said it'd be better to not get the vaccine
2. Got Covid
3. Died
Talk about alleged..
Hundreds of thousands of people is "not that many" when you consider the world population of almost 8 billion humans.
Well there's been 4 million Covid deaths. Lets say the "hundreds of thousands" equals what..300,000 people.
Are you telling us that 7.5% of all Covid Deaths were due to people's doctors telling them NOT to get vaccinated because of the risks? C'mon bro. Don't make me use the J-Phone and call on J-Boy!
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So Biden was allegedly inaugurated? That didn't actually happen?
Video footage from 'official' sources doesn't match with video footage from other sources alleged to be from the same day, like from the news cameramen's phones.
Some footage (from broadcasts) shows a bright sunny day, other footage shows a cold, rainy, dreary day.
Why was he sworn in about 15 minutes before noon? I watched it "live" on TV.
Trump is still President until noon, Inauguration Day.
At the very least, it was recorded in multiple takes on multiple days, because Dementia Joe...
At the most, he's not the duly elected representative of the United States federal government, and why DC is fenced up.
Dude, I joined the discussion yesterday and haven't followed the thread at all due to reasons I posted on the lack of affect the virus has on me and thought perhaps maybe you had been copping it a bit unfairly from everyone from maybe from your controversial views. A couple of things yesterday you said I found interesting I'll admit but dude, WTF? Seriously?!
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How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.
Probably not too many..
That could still be tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of people.
Hundreds of thousands of people that:
1. Had a health condition that their doctor said it'd be better to not get the vaccine
2. Got Covid
3. Died
Talk about alleged..
Hundreds of thousands of people is "not that many" when you consider the world population of almost 8 billion humans.
Well there's been 4 million Covid deaths. Lets say the "hundreds of thousands" equals what..300,000 people.
Are you telling us that 7.5% of all Covid Deaths were due to people's doctors telling them NOT to get vaccinated because of the risks? C'mon bro. Don't make me use the J-Phone and call on J-Boy!
Yeah, I'm opened minded on both sides here but that's just madness.
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I feel like I just stepped into an attempted recreation at Who's on First? But not a funny one. More like a
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F744.gif&hash=1b3b6505129d1b4d5a5fbe98f2087d01de55cb1c)
mixed with
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F857.gif&hash=602abe2391f2393f7cbfa00f09e304073d1caca6)
and a side of
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F1237.gif&hash=b25a421f7cb7e6ef179f889d7357a49599adae78)
This doesn't take into account that on the day of Joe Biden’s alleged inauguration, the World Health Organization (WHO) quietly issued new guidance on the manner in which polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests were to be conducted and reported.
Is another one of those "spirit of what he's saying" moments?
Depends. "Alleged inauguration" is pretty indefensible, and using that term says a lot that is unflattering about Darkshade. But if the point to be discussed is what the WHO did, deflecting that to fixate on how silly "alleged inauguration" is says more about the person arguing with Darkshade than it does about him.
If the point to be discussed is what the WHO did* (which, I'm still unclear what the fuck that is and why it's a problem - guess I haven't done enough of 'my own research'), then why does someone need to lead into that topic of discussion with "alleged inauguration"?
I find it strange that someone routinely looks for some kind of gem in a massive steaming pile of shit.
*Which Darkshade DOESN'T discuss, just throws out some random comment that is absolutely meaningless in and of itself.
BTW... I'm kinda surprised darkshade didn't get a warning for taking a non P/R thread into P/R territory. I would've thought that would be a violation of Rule 13.
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I'll be honest, I think there's a few members who have at least been skirting close to P/R territory (myself, perhaps, included), which is perhaps not unexpected since the response to Corona is inherently political, so I might have been a bit more lax than I might have been in other threads. Needless to say however that the suggestion of Biden's inauguration being fake is well over that line.
So given that, this is now a formal reminder to all members that political stuff should be taken to P/R. Violations from this point on shall result in warnings and temp bans should they continue.
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WASHINGTON — The COVID-19 curve in the U.S. is rising again after months of decline, with the number of new cases per day doubling over the past three weeks, driven by the fast-spreading delta variant, lagging vaccination rates and Fourth of July gatherings.
Confirmed infections climbed to an average of about 23,600 a day on Monday, up from 11,300 on June 23, according to Johns Hopkins University data. And all but two states — Maine and South Dakota — reported that case numbers have gone up over the past two weeks.
Source (https://www.khou.com/article/news/nation-world/us-covid-19-cases-rising-again/507-02189704-a000-43c1-a609-c585ed926c68)
And this
Health care workers in southwest Missouri are sounding the alarm over a wave of young, unvaccinated COVID-19 patients who are now filling hospital beds.
Leanne Handle, an assistant nurse manager of a medical surgical COVID-19 unit at CoxHealth in Springfield, Missouri, said she and her staff have seen the patient population over the past year go from elderly people who are immunocompromised or have multiple other conditions to, more recently, younger individuals who "don't think COVID is real" and haven't been vaccinated against the disease.
"Right now, our average patient population is anywhere from 30 to 55 [years old]. We have seen patients as young as 18," Handle told ABC News in a self-filmed video diary on Tuesday. "I cannot speak to the pediatric population, as our unit doesn't take care of them."
"So, what we're seeing now are the patients who are coming in who don't think that they're going to get sick from it, who aren't mentally prepared to make life and death decisions of do they want to be intubated, do you want CPR if your heart should stop," she added. "We have very few patients who have been admitted that have been vaccinated. So it has been proven to keep you at least out of the hospital, and from severe disease."
Handle also noted a "scary trend" among younger patients with the spread of the so-called delta variant, a highly contagious strain of the virus that was first identified in India and has since been detected in more than 80 countries around the world as well as dozens of U.S. states, including Missouri.
"With the new variant in our area, these patients are getting sicker quicker," she said. "They are progressing through this spectrum very, very quickly."
Source (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/missouri-sees-rise-severe-covid-19-cases-young/story?id=78437479)
The Delta variant is no joke, folks.
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Reminder for anyone who has the urge to point out the absolute numbers are relatively small atm:
(https://i.imgur.com/BbJhhtA.jpg)
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XKCD is always on point.
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TO DARKSHADE
I still want to see you answer a question on something that seems to be at the center of your unwillingness to consider different restrictions and protocols.
IF we agree that COVID only is really serious for a minority of people, and fatal for a minority of that minority (and I don't agree, BTW, because that is oversimplifying a ton of complications that arise from the rate of spread, ability to treat, etc... but I will pretend to agree with this for conversation's sake) than what are the disabled entitled to expect from their nation? What does darkshade believe would have been appropriate, if we all agree that here's a virus going around killing the old at immunodeficient at unprecedented rates?
You are very concerned apparently about "totalitarianism". OK. So why are you OK with the response to the pandemic being totally organized around catering to the needs of the majority?
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WASHINGTON — The COVID-19 curve in the U.S. is rising again after months of decline, with the number of new cases per day doubling over the past three weeks, driven by the fast-spreading delta variant, lagging vaccination rates and Fourth of July gatherings.
Confirmed infections climbed to an average of about 23,600 a day on Monday, up from 11,300 on June 23, according to Johns Hopkins University data. And all but two states — Maine and South Dakota — reported that case numbers have gone up over the past two weeks.
Source (https://www.khou.com/article/news/nation-world/us-covid-19-cases-rising-again/507-02189704-a000-43c1-a609-c585ed926c68)
And this
Health care workers in southwest Missouri are sounding the alarm over a wave of young, unvaccinated COVID-19 patients who are now filling hospital beds.
Leanne Handle, an assistant nurse manager of a medical surgical COVID-19 unit at CoxHealth in Springfield, Missouri, said she and her staff have seen the patient population over the past year go from elderly people who are immunocompromised or have multiple other conditions to, more recently, younger individuals who "don't think COVID is real" and haven't been vaccinated against the disease.
"Right now, our average patient population is anywhere from 30 to 55 [years old]. We have seen patients as young as 18," Handle told ABC News in a self-filmed video diary on Tuesday. "I cannot speak to the pediatric population, as our unit doesn't take care of them."
"So, what we're seeing now are the patients who are coming in who don't think that they're going to get sick from it, who aren't mentally prepared to make life and death decisions of do they want to be intubated, do you want CPR if your heart should stop," she added. "We have very few patients who have been admitted that have been vaccinated. So it has been proven to keep you at least out of the hospital, and from severe disease."
Handle also noted a "scary trend" among younger patients with the spread of the so-called delta variant, a highly contagious strain of the virus that was first identified in India and has since been detected in more than 80 countries around the world as well as dozens of U.S. states, including Missouri.
"With the new variant in our area, these patients are getting sicker quicker," she said. "They are progressing through this spectrum very, very quickly."
Source (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/missouri-sees-rise-severe-covid-19-cases-young/story?id=78437479)
The Delta variant is no joke, folks.
To further drive home the point - https://www.lakeregional.com/lettertocommunity
This is not and never has been a civil liberty issue this is and always has been a public health issue.
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:millahhhh
How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.
Probably not too many..
And those are the people who we, as a society, have a responsibility to protect by getting vaccinated ourselves.
About how many people is that?
Enough that they warrant us being mature, banding together, and doing what we can to make sure they survive.
For the record, I agree with that 100%, but the devil is in the details.
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XKCD is always on point.
This one was in fact not from xkcd, but from someone who aimed to emulate the style.
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TO DARKSHADE
I still want to see you answer a question on something that seems to be at the center of your unwillingness to consider different restrictions and protocols.
IF we agree that COVID only is really serious for a minority of people, and fatal for a minority of that minority (and I don't agree, BTW, because that is oversimplifying a ton of complications that arise from the rate of spread, ability to treat, etc... but I will pretend to agree with this for conversation's sake) than what are the disabled entitled to expect from their nation? What does darkshade believe would have been appropriate, if we all agree that here's a virus going around killing the old at immunodeficient at unprecedented rates?
You are very concerned apparently about "totalitarianism". OK. So why are you OK with the response to the pandemic being totally organized around catering to the needs of the majority?
Even though I do believe that Joe Biden was rightfully inaugurated and is our legitimate, rightful President, since I do tend to see Darkshade's point on the question presented above, I will weigh in: full disclosure, and full, unbiased information as well as the resources for both sides of the discussion to make as best a decision as they can: for those that want the vaccine, make it as available as possible (vaccine centers, door-to-door, pamphlets on the efficacy of the vaccines to the best of our current knowledge), and for those that are susceptible, making PPE available and providing information on alternate means of doing the day-to-day that minimizes exposure. If the people in the latter group are susceptible, then vaccines are only part of a mitigation strategy. My father is in this group (he suffers from a chronic immuno-compromising condition); he's been vaccinated, as has my mom, but the work doesn't end there. We get groceries delivered; we make sure that any service people that come to the condo are met by others, or are socially distanced. My dad is forgetful, let's say, so it's not perfect, but it is what it is. This is one of a long line of risks that my dad has had to endure in his life (he's been basically "handicapped" since I was an adolescent).
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To further drive home the point - https://www.lakeregional.com/lettertocommunity
This is not and never has been a civil liberty issue this is and always has been a public health issue.
Unfortunately the two are indelibly related. Remember the discussions about "The Patriot Act".
I like that response, though. Clear, decisive information, and a strong suggestion as to a (or perhaps, the best) path forward. I think that's the right response, the right balance.
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TO DARKSHADE
I still want to see you answer a question on something that seems to be at the center of your unwillingness to consider different restrictions and protocols.
IF we agree that COVID only is really serious for a minority of people, and fatal for a minority of that minority (and I don't agree, BTW, because that is oversimplifying a ton of complications that arise from the rate of spread, ability to treat, etc... but I will pretend to agree with this for conversation's sake) than what are the disabled entitled to expect from their nation? What does darkshade believe would have been appropriate, if we all agree that here's a virus going around killing the old at immunodeficient at unprecedented rates?
You are very concerned apparently about "totalitarianism". OK. So why are you OK with the response to the pandemic being totally organized around catering to the needs of the majority?
Even though I do believe that Joe Biden was rightfully inaugurated and is our legitimate, rightful President, since I do tend to see Darkshade's point on the question presented above, I will weigh in: full disclosure, and full, unbiased information as well as the resources for both sides of the discussion to make as best a decision as they can: for those that want the vaccine, make it as available as possible (vaccine centers, door-to-door, pamphlets on the efficacy of the vaccines to the best of our current knowledge), and for those that are susceptible, making PPE available and providing information on alternate means of doing the day-to-day that minimizes exposure. If the people in the latter group are susceptible, then vaccines are only part of a mitigation strategy. My father is in this group (he suffers from a chronic immuno-compromising condition); he's been vaccinated, as has my mom, but the work doesn't end there. We get groceries delivered; we make sure that any service people that come to the condo are met by others, or are socially distanced. My dad is forgetful, let's say, so it's not perfect, but it is what it is. This is one of a long line of risks that my dad has had to endure in his life (he's been basically "handicapped" since I was an adolescent).
The difference between you and darkshade Stads is the thoughtfulness of others the virus could affect. Even though you think it will not affect you as much as others, you still take precautions for other more susceptible. You are being selfless.
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TO DARKSHADE
I still want to see you answer a question on something that seems to be at the center of your unwillingness to consider different restrictions and protocols.
IF we agree that COVID only is really serious for a minority of people, and fatal for a minority of that minority (and I don't agree, BTW, because that is oversimplifying a ton of complications that arise from the rate of spread, ability to treat, etc... but I will pretend to agree with this for conversation's sake) than what are the disabled entitled to expect from their nation? What does darkshade believe would have been appropriate, if we all agree that here's a virus going around killing the old at immunodeficient at unprecedented rates?
You are very concerned apparently about "totalitarianism". OK. So why are you OK with the response to the pandemic being totally organized around catering to the needs of the majority?
Even though I do believe that Joe Biden was rightfully inaugurated and is our legitimate, rightful President, since I do tend to see Darkshade's point on the question presented above, I will weigh in: full disclosure, and full, unbiased information as well as the resources for both sides of the discussion to make as best a decision as they can: for those that want the vaccine, make it as available as possible (vaccine centers, door-to-door, pamphlets on the efficacy of the vaccines to the best of our current knowledge), and for those that are susceptible, making PPE available and providing information on alternate means of doing the day-to-day that minimizes exposure. If the people in the latter group are susceptible, then vaccines are only part of a mitigation strategy. My father is in this group (he suffers from a chronic immuno-compromising condition); he's been vaccinated, as has my mom, but the work doesn't end there. We get groceries delivered; we make sure that any service people that come to the condo are met by others, or are socially distanced. My dad is forgetful, let's say, so it's not perfect, but it is what it is. This is one of a long line of risks that my dad has had to endure in his life (he's been basically "handicapped" since I was an adolescent).
The difference between you and darkshade Stads is the thoughtfulness of others the virus could affect. Even though you think it will not affect you as much as others, you still take precautions for other more susceptible. You are being selfless.
Try to; not perfect, but I mask up until it's clear I don't have to, and I social distance (that's not a problem; I'm not a huge "invade your personal space" guy).
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To further drive home the point - https://www.lakeregional.com/lettertocommunity
This is not and never has been a civil liberty issue this is and always has been a public health issue.
Unfortunately the two are indelibly related. Remember the discussions about "The Patriot Act".
I like that response, though. Clear, decisive information, and a strong suggestion as to a (or perhaps, the best) path forward. I think that's the right response, the right balance.
One of the bigger mistakes the previous administration made at the outset of the Pandemic (and they made plenty) was framing COVID as personal liberties issue. From the stay at home orders to mask wearing it was all about your civil liberties.
Maybe if the message had been about public health and civil duties from the very beginning we could have been in a better position where vaccinations rates could be higher.
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We all try. Hey, I hated the masks. I was having trouble breathing and when shopping with the with I would go to my car because I was overheating but I isolated myself to take the mask off.
I still hate masks. It is what it is.
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To further drive home the point - https://www.lakeregional.com/lettertocommunity
This is not and never has been a civil liberty issue this is and always has been a public health issue.
Unfortunately the two are indelibly related. Remember the discussions about "The Patriot Act".
I like that response, though. Clear, decisive information, and a strong suggestion as to a (or perhaps, the best) path forward. I think that's the right response, the right balance.
One of the bigger mistakes the previous administration made at the outset of the Pandemic (and they made plenty) was framing COVID as personal liberties issue. From the stay at home orders to mask wearing it was all about your civil liberties.
Maybe if the message had been about public health and civil duties from the very beginning we could have been in a better position where vaccinations rates could be higher.
To P/R......
-
To further drive home the point - https://www.lakeregional.com/lettertocommunity
This is not and never has been a civil liberty issue this is and always has been a public health issue.
Unfortunately the two are indelibly related. Remember the discussions about "The Patriot Act".
I like that response, though. Clear, decisive information, and a strong suggestion as to a (or perhaps, the best) path forward. I think that's the right response, the right balance.
One of the bigger mistakes the previous administration made at the outset of the Pandemic (and they made plenty) was framing COVID as personal liberties issue. From the stay at home orders to mask wearing it was all about your civil liberties.
Maybe if the message had been about public health and civil duties from the very beginning we could have been in a better position where vaccinations rates could be higher.
To P/R......
To the Bat Mobile!
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TO DARKSHADE
I still want to see you answer a question on something that seems to be at the center of your unwillingness to consider different restrictions and protocols.
IF we agree that COVID only is really serious for a minority of people, and fatal for a minority of that minority (and I don't agree, BTW, because that is oversimplifying a ton of complications that arise from the rate of spread, ability to treat, etc... but I will pretend to agree with this for conversation's sake) than what are the disabled entitled to expect from their nation? What does darkshade believe would have been appropriate, if we all agree that here's a virus going around killing the old at immunodeficient at unprecedented rates?
You are very concerned apparently about "totalitarianism". OK. So why are you OK with the response to the pandemic being totally organized around catering to the needs of the majority?
Even though I do believe that Joe Biden was rightfully inaugurated and is our legitimate, rightful President, since I do tend to see Darkshade's point on the question presented above, I will weigh in: full disclosure, and full, unbiased information as well as the resources for both sides of the discussion to make as best a decision as they can: for those that want the vaccine, make it as available as possible (vaccine centers, door-to-door, pamphlets on the efficacy of the vaccines to the best of our current knowledge), and for those that are susceptible, making PPE available and providing information on alternate means of doing the day-to-day that minimizes exposure. If the people in the latter group are susceptible, then vaccines are only part of a mitigation strategy. My father is in this group (he suffers from a chronic immuno-compromising condition); he's been vaccinated, as has my mom, but the work doesn't end there. We get groceries delivered; we make sure that any service people that come to the condo are met by others, or are socially distanced. My dad is forgetful, let's say, so it's not perfect, but it is what it is. This is one of a long line of risks that my dad has had to endure in his life (he's been basically "handicapped" since I was an adolescent).
The difference between you and darkshade Stads is the thoughtfulness of others the virus could affect. Even though you think it will not affect you as much as others, you still take precautions for other more susceptible. You are being selfless.
Try to; not perfect, but I mask up until it's clear I don't have to, and I social distance (that's not a problem; I'm not a huge "invade your personal space" guy).
I think a majority of us will agree that the concept of social distancing is a keeper.
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I don't think there will be full on lockdowns again because of how economically devastating they are, plus about half of the population has been fully vaccinated. No, there won't be any national lockdowns or even mask mandates. There will be "outbreaks" in various regions. If you want to know where the outbreaks are going to be, just look at the Trump vs Biden election map. If a state is red, they're going to be having outbreaks, especially in the fall and winter. If a state is blue, they probably won't be having any major outbreaks. Just look at where cases are on the rise right now.
There is a hardcore group, I'd say probably about 1/3 or maybe 1/4 of the general population who are just not going to get vaccinated. These are the people who will be arguing that the "china virus" is "nothing to be concerned about" and "overblown" and "just like a cold" from their ICU beds in the hospital, while the doctor is explaining why they have to intubate them. My sister-in-law is works in a hospital and she tells me that practically everyone who is in there now with a Covid-19 infection are the unvaccinated. Many only realizing in their final moments the horrible mistake they've made. It's simultaneously sad and infuriating. Sad because it didn't have to be like this and infuriating because there are still people out there pushing bullshit conspiracy theories and misinformation about the vaccines and it's literally killing people. A healthy portion of those deaths 100% preventable. :facepalm:
but what are the average ages of those un-vaccinated on their death beds?
Well, an exhaustive 4-second search (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html) on the CDC's website netted this nugget of information:
We have seen the success of the U.S. vaccination program over the last 8 months. As of July 8, 2021, 183.2 million people have received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine, and 158.3 million are fully vaccinated.* However, we are also seeing new and emerging trends that are concerning. Cases and hospitalizations are on the rise in areas with low vaccination coverage. Data from recent weeks show that adults ages 18–49 now account for more than 40% of COVID-19-associated hospitalizations.
Those are the alleged facts
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This stuff is out there, if it can easily be debunked, then debunk it.
Prove I'm not a fucking unicorn
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This stuff is out there, if it can easily be debunked, then debunk it.
Prove I'm not a fucking unicorn
We're not allowed to talk about porn here Barry. :lol
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That begs a photoshop.
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Unicorn Porn! :metal
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This stuff is out there, if it can easily be debunked, then debunk it.
Prove I'm not a fucking unicorn
Pics don't lie!
(https://i2.wp.com/strangehorizons.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/horakova_unicorn-dog.jpg?resize=400%2C306)
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https://m.jagranjosh.com/current-affairs/cubas-soberana-2-covid19-vaccine-what-is-conjugate-vaccine-and-how-does-it-work-1626167243-1
Cuba has developed the world’s first conjugate Covid-19 vaccine Soberana 2 (Sovereign 2). Cuba’s State-run corporation BioFarma confirmed on July 9, 2021 that its indigenously produced Soberana 2 vaccine showed 91.2% efficacy when delivered with a booster shot of Soberana Plus during phase-3 clinical trials.
If approved, Cuba will become the first Latin American country indigenously develop and produce a vaccine against Covid-19. Following the announcement of the efficacy results, Cuban President Miguel Díaz-Canel thanked the island nation’s scientists for working on the vaccine.
Cuba is currently working on five coronavirus vaccines and it started vaccinating its population using two of them -- Abdala and Soberana 2 -- even before they received approval. The nation has not bought or sought vaccines from elsewhere and aims to immunize its population before the end of the year with its own vaccines.
• Around 6.8 million people out of Cuba's total 11.2 million people have received at least one dose of either vaccine, of which 1.6 million have received the required three doses. Both Soberana 2 and Abdala are three-dose vaccines.
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We have seen the success of the U.S. vaccination program over the last 8 months. As of July 8, 2021, 183.2 million people have received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine, and 158.3 million are fully vaccinated.* However, we are also seeing new and emerging trends that are concerning. Cases and hospitalizations are on the rise in areas with low vaccination coverage. Data from recent weeks show that adults ages 18–49 now account for more than 40% of COVID-19-associated hospitalizations.
Those are the alleged facts
But this: "Cases and hospitalizations are on the rise in areas with low vaccination coverage"
And this: "Data from recent weeks show that adults ages 18–49 now account for more than 40% of COVID-19-associated hospitalizations."
Are incomplete pieces of data and don't necessarily connect. They might, but not necessarily. I'm not asking you to produce more data - I can do that as well (and some of it is elsewhere in your link) - but it's dangerous to fill in the gaps. How much on the rise? Are there other factors that account for that (summer, changes in work or school arrangements, etc.)? And 40% of what? The implication is, of course, that the 18-49 age group is under-vaccinated, at least compared to the 50-and-over group (which presumably makes up the bulk of the 60% remaining) but if we're up week over week, but down month over month, then there's something else potentially going on here.
I'm not defending a particular position - I've been clear I'm pro-vaccine - I'm just pointing out the trouble with some of the numbers and the story/stories they tell.
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It's simply going up, especially amongst those not vaccinated, even to some right wing pundits
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-07-13/column-right-wing-paranoia-could-get-you-killed
and the facts https://www.healthline.com/health-news/here-are-the-states-where-covid-19-is-increasing-2
I am 99% certain that if I get C19, I won't be hospitalized. I might still get it, so I still take the precaution of wearing a mask in stores. The variants aren't anything to eff around with. Plus, the mask drastically reduces my chances of catching a cold or the flu, so I'll continue to wear one in stores and restaurants.
A neighbor got it in March in spite of taking safeguards, a week before he was to get vaxxed. He's in his late 50s, was in better shape than me, and after spending three weeks in ICU, and another two in the hospital, was released. He is finally off oxygen, and is strong enough to finally walk to the end of the driveway on his own a couple of times a day with a walker. At least he didn't have to have a single or double lung transplant as some have had and will have.
I'd rather be able to shop, golf, enjoy life with the wife and dog whilst in relatively good health. The shots and the little inconvenience of a mask for a few moments is now part of 'life', and definitely has its rewards. Oh, and polio shot I received decades ago has worked out quite well, too.
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=Oh, and polio shot I received decades ago has worked out quite well, too.
Same with the small-pox one that most people of my generation have a doozy of a scar for. :tup
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Polio vaccine shot? We got sugar cubes soaked with a liquid oral vaccine while we were at school. The shit tasted awful so the sugar cube was meant to mask the taste. It worked about as well as the "no smoking" section on a plane works. Meaning, it didn't work. It still tasted like a mouthful of pure ass cheese.
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Polio vaccine shot? We got sugar cubes soaked with a liquid oral vaccine while we were at school. The shit tasted awful so the sugar cube was meant to mask the taste. It worked about as well as the "no smoking" section on a plane works. Meaning, it didn't work. It still tasted like a mouthful of pure ass cheese.
Yeah, but you made up for it later with the really fun sugar cubes...
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I probably (most likely/absolutely) have my vaccines mixed up. Senior moment here.
Hey, whaddya expect? I was maybe five years old at the time;)
I do know that both polio and smallpox were not cured by 'herd mentality'...er 'immunity'. They were cured by vaccines.
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So LA county just reinstated mask mandates for indoors as cases have increased over 250%. Areas in Missouri are running out of ER beds and some areas are even looking for ventilators.
We have three vaccines that have been shown to be safe and highly effective. They are free and readily available to all Americans, yet we are sliding back into another wave of cases, riding solely on our arrogance, ignorance, and hubris. Fucking embarrassing.
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We have three vaccines that have been shown to be safe and highly effective. They are free and readily available to all Americans, yet we are sliding back into another wave of cases, riding solely on our arrogance, ignorance, and hubris. Fucking embarrassing.
This is exactly how I feel. I earned a muting on a local FB group for telling a bunch of anti Vax moms to stop getting angry at the school board for considering having kids wear masks in school again and point their fingers back at themselves for not getting vaccinated.
The district will use local metrics....go get a shot and protect the kids around you so they can go to school without a mask. Ugh. People are so dumb and I'm tired of the political divide surrounding a public health issue.
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Sliding in the summer time. Where there is a lot of outdoor activities.
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We have three vaccines that have been shown to be safe and highly effective. They are free and readily available to all Americans, yet we are sliding back into another wave of cases, riding solely on our arrogance, ignorance, and hubris. Fucking embarrassing.
This is exactly how I feel. I earned a muting on a local FB group for telling a bunch of anti Vax moms to stop getting angry at the school board for considering having kids wear masks in school again and point their fingers back at themselves for not getting vaccinated.
The district will use local metrics....go get a shot and protect the kids around you so they can go to school without a mask. Ugh. People are so dumb and I'm tired of the political divide surrounding a public health issue.
It's truly baffling. We literally have a way out, it's easy, and for 99.99999% it's totally safe. The amount of anti-science idiocy is just :zeltar:
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Seems like new cases are rising but everyone is acting like we're in a down turn. Just sat in a work call where director level leadership where outright giddy about everyone "coming back to work to be together again". They pretty much ignored every single question about the delta variant, rising case counts, etc., that were posted in the meeting chat.
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We have three vaccines that have been shown to be safe and highly effective. They are free and readily available to all Americans, yet we are sliding back into another wave of cases, riding solely on our arrogance, ignorance, and hubris. Fucking embarrassing.
This is exactly how I feel. I earned a muting on a local FB group for telling a bunch of anti Vax moms to stop getting angry at the school board for considering having kids wear masks in school again and point their fingers back at themselves for not getting vaccinated.
The district will use local metrics....go get a shot and protect the kids around you so they can go to school without a mask. Ugh. People are so dumb and I'm tired of the political divide surrounding a public health issue.
It's truly baffling. We literally have a way out, it's easy, and for 99.99999% it's totally safe. The amount of anti-science idiocy is just :zeltar:
One mom honestly made the argument that bacterial infections are on the rise (confirmed by HER doctor) and gum infections are on the rise (confirmed by HER dentist) because of people wearing dirty masks, so masks should no longer be worn.
???
Gee, I'm sorry that the mask bothers you that much. Why don't you try a ventilator instead?
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Pretty much what you all are saying.
I saw a story recently about a 24 year old dude that wouldn't get the vax due to fear of side-effects and long term unknowns. His whole family got vaxxed and begged him to as well.
The end result? Dude got a double lung transplant due to covid destroying them. Now he is trying to tell people to get the vax as it is not worth the potential alternative. I know my hospital did a double lung transplant on a dude last year as well.
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So on my way home from work, I was listening to the evening talk host about vaccines, mainly due to LA and to the Yankee players testing positive. Some of the people calling in to berate him were just so off the fucking rails. One guy simply said he didn't believe in them, and that we 'Libs' should all be glad anyways because if he dies it's just one less deplorable, all with a shitty smug ass attitude. Another talked about how all the young people who went out and got vaxxed in the promise of opening up were just 'suckers' and 'idiots' because the 'guv'mint' would never let us out of this cycle of oppression. I could literally hear the host facepalming as he's trying to tactfully maneuver his way through things.
Though this is but a small sample of the myriad reasons people aren't getting shots, I'm sure the basic vibe runs through most of their reasoning. As I said above, ignorance and hubris abound.
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Sliding in the summer time. Where there is a lot of outdoor activities.
Right!?!? Just wait until Sept when schools are back in session, and the Fall weather turns (ie, more people indoors more often)
Wouldn’t surprise me to see limitations on the NBA and NHL attendance in arenas. Who knows about concerts (sorry Marc)
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Polio vaccine shot? We got sugar cubes soaked with a liquid oral vaccine while we were at school. The shit tasted awful so the sugar cube was meant to mask the taste. It worked about as well as the "no smoking" section on a plane works. Meaning, it didn't work. It still tasted like a mouthful of pure ass cheese.
I've never heard of that before. Interesting.
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So LA county just reinstated mask mandates for indoors as cases have increased over 250%. Areas in Missouri are running out of ER beds and some areas are even looking for ventilators.
We have three vaccines that have been shown to be safe and highly effective. They are free and readily available to all Americans, yet we are sliding back into another wave of cases, riding solely on our arrogance, ignorance, and hubris. Fucking embarrassing.
I agree. I see a lot of arrogance and hubris around this issue.
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Let's just remember, this current spike is still a small fraction of the previous spikes. I wouldn't be surprised if by August it's already trending back down. There's no doubt delta is much more contagious (lots of data is supporting that) but it's not any more deadly (data is starting to show that). Most cases are from unvaccinated still. The pandemic definitely isn't over, but I still don't see much reason to panic. Unvaccinated people still really need to be pushed to get the jab. Disinformation is really playing a major role sadly.
Who knows about concerts (sorry Marc)
The concert last night was really fun
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6YOgFNXoAERvPs?format=jpg&name=large)
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One of my rules in life is "Never deprive anyone of hope... it might be all they have". :lol
:|
I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/05/6c/c0/056cc0a7b090fed22413d7e2481af204.gif)
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Our hospital is clamping down again. Temp checks, 1 guest only per patient, etc...
It"s so frustrating and demoralizing to be going backwards again. Ugh! Plenty of positives in house.
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Our hospital is clamping down again. Temp checks, 1 guest only per patient, etc...
It"s so frustrating and demoralizing to be going backwards again. Ugh! Plenty of positives in house.
I feel for you and all front-line workers (not to mention appreciate the hell out of you all). My father-in-law (FIL) had a stroke in his eye and my wife drove them to Columbia (60 miles away) and that hospital had a 1 guest per patient policy (which caused another issue). They wanted to run a bunch of tests but he would need to stay overnight because they ran out of rooms in the ER because they were full of COVID patients with more in waiting. He refused to be admitted so they went home. Deep sigh.......
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One of my rules in life is "Never deprive anyone of hope... it might be all they have". :lol
:|
I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/05/6c/c0/056cc0a7b090fed22413d7e2481af204.gif)
https://www.yahoo.com/news/steep-plunge-virus-cases-every-120859155.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/steep-plunge-virus-cases-every-120859155.html)
Still, the country’s prognosis remains better than at previous points in the pandemic. The vaccines are widely available, cases and hospitalizations remain at a tiny fraction of their peaks and deaths are occurring at some of the lowest levels since the early days of the pandemic.
There is reason for concern... if you aren't vaccinated. But overall, these numbers are still fairly low all things considered. Yes the trends are bad but it's almost exclusively impacting one group of people (the unvaccinated). I expect them to continue to go up over the next couple weeks, but we aren't very likely to see a huge spike to the point of shutting things down other than local hot spots... which guess what, all correlate to low vaccination areas. The only debbie downer needed is to those who still aren't vaccinated. (notice the trend).
My little sister is a perfect example. She didn't believe in the vaccine and is paying for it now. Her husband and herself are still in pain. However, I who babysat my nieces who were already sick (no one knew at the time it was covid) have not had any symptoms (almost 2 weeks out now).
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it’s NOT as simple as well they’re not vaccinated so screw them, that’s not good public health policy.
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it’s NOT as simple as well they’re not vaccinated so screw them, that’s not good public health policy.
He's not saying that. He's saying they reap what they sow for not getting vaccinated.
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it’s NOT as simple as well they’re not vaccinated so screw them, that’s not good public health policy.
He's not saying that. He's saying they reap what they sow for not getting vaccinated.
how is that different? and btw I didn’t really mean that in an accusatory way, I could have worded that better.
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Cram isn't saying screw them. He's saying they put themselves in this position by not wanting the vaccine. You can say they are idiots for not taking the vaccine. It doesn't mean screw them for not taking the vaccine. He's even pointed out stats that it would be better for everyone to get the vaccine. Used himself and his family as an example on why it's good to get the vaccine.
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It's safe to say we're currently at a point where every US covid death could've been easily prevented.
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My point in that post was not to say "screw them" but their decision is the reason there is a spike.
But if you want my honest opinion, there is a part of me that says "screw them" not in that I wish any harm on anyone, but they are the #1 reason we are where we are and it pisses me off that it's going to lead to deaths. There's basically nothing we can do to change their minds so if they die, they die. There's nothing I can do. Unless the government forces me again, I will continue to live my life the way I have the last few months. I'm not going to stay inside because a subset of this country doesn't believe in a virus and/or vaccine.
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I agree with you on that last part Marc, and am going to be fucking pissed if they reinstate mask mandates here...
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Watching the news today in NH, it was brought up that the Delta Variant is very low in NH right now.
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
#facts
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
This is the exact reason why I AM for vaccine mandates and no I am not advocating knocking down doors and prick people at gunpoint but I do think the unvaccinated privilege's need to be curtailed.
It's maddening to me that we restrict peoples liberties all the time in the name of saving lives but we can't do it with this health crisis? Good fucking grief, I'm tired of wearing masks too but the unvaccinated will ensure that this will keep happening and because of the data we now have, we can point the finger right at the source of the problem.
Call me selfish but I for one WANT a return to normalcy even if we have to curb "liberties" because I AM concerned about a variant jumping the virus and if this happens then as you say, we're ALL fucked.
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The ironic thing is that not getting vaxxed in the name of liberties will ensure the actual taking away of liberties in the form of mask mandates, closures, travel restrictions, etc..
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Yeah, but they're sure "sticking it to the man" or...something :\
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
This exactly.
Just saying that anyone can get it who wants it is great. Wish for more vaccinations all you want*, but the reality is 40%+ of the US are unvaccinated. Are you just going to ignore or disregard them? Not provide them healthcare? Hospitals can still be overwhelmed with the Delta variant - and subsequent/potential others. How do you protect that 40% from themselves (collectively), or do you (royal) just not care?
*insert Bad Santa line here.
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
I think that's an important point.
We're - generally, not here - not really distinguishing between those that can't and those that won't. I think that's an important distinction that the "red/blue" (which I know you didn't raise, but others here have) discussion clouds, and if we can pick off some of the "can't"'s, it might improve our chances against your point.
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
This exactly.
Just saying that anyone can get it who wants it is great. Wish for more vaccinations all you want*, but the reality is 40%+ of the US are unvaccinated. Are you just going to ignore or disregard them? Not provide them healthcare? Hospitals can still be overwhelmed with the Delta variant - and subsequent/potential others. How do you protect that 40% from themselves (collectively), or do you (royal) just not care?
*insert Bad Santa line here.
We're going to do what we always do when people do things that have (undue) risk. When those skiers jump out of helicopters and get caught in an avalanche, we go save them. When boaters get caught too far ashore in a storm they can't navigate, we go save them. When someone eats McDonald's and Diet Coke to the point they need a crane to get out of bed, we go help them. When people have unprotected sex and end up with an STD, we treat them.
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
I think that's an important point.
We're - generally, not here - not really distinguishing between those that can't and those that won't. I think that's an important distinction that the "red/blue" (which I know you didn't raise, but others here have) discussion clouds, and if we can pick off some of the "can't"'s, it might improve our chances against your point.
We should make that distinction, though, because people who can't get the vaccine for health reasons, well, that's not their fault at all. It's the people who won't get it that are going to cause this thing to stretch out into a 3 or 4 year ordeal. We're already 18 months into it and we are no where even remotely close to the end. Largely due to the group who are refusing to get vaccinated. Among the group refusing to vaccinate I've yet to hear a single rationale that wasn't based on straight up internet conspiracy theory bullshit.
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
This exactly.
Just saying that anyone can get it who wants it is great. Wish for more vaccinations all you want*, but the reality is 40%+ of the US are unvaccinated. Are you just going to ignore or disregard them? Not provide them healthcare? Hospitals can still be overwhelmed with the Delta variant - and subsequent/potential others. How do you protect that 40% from themselves (collectively), or do you (royal) just not care?
*insert Bad Santa line here.
We're going to do what we always do when people do things that have (undue) risk. When those skiers jump out of helicopters and get caught in an avalanche, we go save them. When boaters get caught too far ashore in a storm they can't navigate, we go save them. When someone eats McDonald's and Diet Coke to the point they need a crane to get out of bed, we go help them. When people have unprotected sex and end up with an STD, we treat them.
And when there is cigarette smoke in a restaurant, we require smokers to smoke outside. When drivers drive drunk, we throw them in jail. We require children to be vaccinated before entering Public schools with bullshit exceptions. We regulate personal liberties ALL THE TIME.
What's the difference?
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45 is the difference
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So the fda just announced that they'll be fast tracking the pfizer shot, and say full authorization could come as early as this month.
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So the fda just announced that they'll be fast tracking the pfizer shot, and say full authorization could come as early as this month.
this seems like the wrong track… prioritizing the distribution of existing vaccines the parts of the world that need them and getting people to actually take them would be time and ressources better spent, imo.
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
This is the exact reason why I AM for vaccine mandates and no I am not advocating knocking down doors and prick people at gunpoint but I do think the unvaccinated privilege's need to be curtailed.
It's maddening to me that we restrict peoples liberties all the time in the name of saving lives but we can't do it with this health crisis? Good fucking grief, I'm tired of wearing masks too but the unvaccinated will ensure that this will keep happening and because of the data we now have, we can point the finger right at the source of the problem.
Call me selfish but I for one WANT a return to normalcy even if we have to curb "liberties" because I AM concerned about a variant jumping the virus and if this happens then as you say, we're ALL fucked.
That's easy to say when you don't value the liberties you're taking from other people as highly as they do. Why does your fear of being sick trump someone else's fear of putting something they don't want in their body (for whatever reason)
The problem with mandates, of course, is enforcing them. There's little concern with childhood mandates, because even if you prevent them from going to school, the "patient" has alternatives (home school, no school, etc., which only really compounds the problem; now you have an un- or poorly educated, unvaccinated child). What are you going to do? Prevent them from going to Starbucks? Fine them? Okay, so the town is $100 richer, but we're still faced with an unvaccinated person who's now pissed off that he was made to spend the $100 to protect what was his to begin with.
Still far better off trying to educate and push for as high a rate as we can from the people willing, and as in depth an outreach as we can for those that appear now to be unwilling.
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So the fda just announced that they'll be fast tracking the pfizer shot, and say full authorization could come as early as this month.
this seems like the wrong track… prioritizing the distribution of existing vaccines the parts of the world that need them and getting people to actually take them would be time and ressources better spent, imo.
One of the main arguments of the vaccine hesitant is that it's not an fda approved drug, so I think it's actually a very big priority. Also, there really doesn't need to be much studying since we already got a sample of 80 million people who have taken it. Seems mostly a matter of hard lining the data.
As to distribution to other countries , I think that'd be outside of the FDAs zone, wouldnt it?
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So the fda just announced that they'll be fast tracking the pfizer shot, and say full authorization could come as early as this month.
this seems like the wrong track… prioritizing the distribution of existing vaccines the parts of the world that need them and getting people to actually take them would be time and ressources better spent, imo.
One of the main arguments of the vaccine hesitant is that it's not an fda approved drug, so I think it's actually a very big priority. Also, there really doesn't need to be much studying since we already got a sample of 80 million people who have taken it. Seems mostly a matter of hard lining the data.
As to distribution to other countries , I think that'd be outside of the FDAs zone, wouldnt it?
okay I misunderstood. Though this was about a 3rd pfizer dose, something I’ve heard about recently
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:tup
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
I think that's an important point.
We're - generally, not here - not really distinguishing between those that can't and those that won't. I think that's an important distinction that the "red/blue" (which I know you didn't raise, but others here have) discussion clouds, and if we can pick off some of the "can't"'s, it might improve our chances against your point.
We should make that distinction, though, because people who can't get the vaccine for health reasons, well, that's not their fault at all. It's the people who won't get it that are going to cause this thing to stretch out into a 3 or 4 year ordeal. We're already 18 months into it and we are no where even remotely close to the end. Largely due to the group who are refusing to get vaccinated. Among the group refusing to vaccinate I've yet to hear a single rationale that wasn't based on straight up internet conspiracy theory bullshit.
That's actually not true. I've given one example (several posts back) of a rationale that wasn't based on straight up internet conspiracy theory bullshit.
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Local bay area health officials, who cater to about 10 million people in the bay area, have 'strongly recommended' that vaccinated people wear masks indoors.... To protect the unvaccinated...
:zeltar:
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Yeah, unfortunately my impression is that many of those who have been using the lack of full FDA authorization as a rationale for not taking the vaccine will simply find another reason to not take it. I watched a video of a guy yesterday, it was taken the day before he died from complications of the caronavirus and in the video he rants about how the "china virus is a hoax" in between gasps of air in his oxygen mask. Swears he just has a "bad flu" and will be "back on his feet in a couple of days" at the end of the video it said he died the next morning, basically suffocated to death as his lungs filled up with fluid because he never got vaccinated and caught the delta variant. He lived 10 days from the onset of symptoms and spent 9 days, 23 and a half hours of it ranting and raving about vaccine conspiracy theories, only when he was minutes from death did he admit that he might have made a mistake. I don't cry a lot but that video made me cry when I saw his daughter's reaction to the news. His 6 year old daughter. Fuck. :( I tried to find the video but they made it private.
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
This exactly.
Just saying that anyone can get it who wants it is great. Wish for more vaccinations all you want*, but the reality is 40%+ of the US are unvaccinated. Are you just going to ignore or disregard them? Not provide them healthcare? Hospitals can still be overwhelmed with the Delta variant - and subsequent/potential others. How do you protect that 40% from themselves (collectively), or do you (royal) just not care?
*insert Bad Santa line here.
We're going to do what we always do when people do things that have (undue) risk. When those skiers jump out of helicopters and get caught in an avalanche, we go save them. When boaters get caught too far ashore in a storm they can't navigate, we go save them. When someone eats McDonald's and Diet Coke to the point they need a crane to get out of bed, we go help them. When people have unprotected sex and end up with an STD, we treat them.
And when there is cigarette smoke in a restaurant, we require smokers to smoke outside. When drivers drive drunk, we throw them in jail. We require children to be vaccinated before entering Public schools with bullshit exceptions. We regulate personal liberties ALL THE TIME.
What's the difference?
It's not 45. The anti-vaxx idea was around LONG before Trump, and will be with us long after he's gone (which means, now).
It's that cigarette smoking is not a fundamental right.
It's that driving is not a fundamental right.
It's that education, believe it or not, in the U.S. is not a fundamental right.
Personal privacy - the constitutional theory under which a "vaccine" would likely fall - IS a fundamental right (Roe v. Wade solidifies that for us) and thus gets analyzed under a different scheme; it's called "strict scrutiny".
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
I think that's an important point.
We're - generally, not here - not really distinguishing between those that can't and those that won't. I think that's an important distinction that the "red/blue" (which I know you didn't raise, but others here have) discussion clouds, and if we can pick off some of the "can't"'s, it might improve our chances against your point.
We should make that distinction, though, because people who can't get the vaccine for health reasons, well, that's not their fault at all. It's the people who won't get it that are going to cause this thing to stretch out into a 3 or 4 year ordeal. We're already 18 months into it and we are no where even remotely close to the end. Largely due to the group who are refusing to get vaccinated. Among the group refusing to vaccinate I've yet to hear a single rationale that wasn't based on straight up internet conspiracy theory bullshit.
Can the virus still mutate in those that can not take the vaccine due to health reasons?
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What percent would you estimate the unvaccinated as those who are unable because of other health reasons? I can't help but think that number would be fairly insignificant. I could be wrong..
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What percent would you estimate the unvaccinated as those who are unable because of other health reasons? I can't help but think that number would be fairly insignificant. I could be wrong..
Quick search brought up an article from Yale that says the only people who absolutely can't get vaxxed are those who suffer from anaphylaxis to the ingredients. They also strongly suggest pregnant women wait.
That's it.
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What percent would you estimate the unvaccinated as those who are unable because of other health reasons? I can't help but think that number would be fairly insignificant. I could be wrong..
Quick search brought up an article from Yale that says the only people who absolutely can't get vaxxed are those who suffer from anaphylaxis to the ingredients. They also strongly suggest pregnant women wait.
That's it.
Which many pregnant women already got the vaccine.
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What percent would you estimate the unvaccinated as those who are unable because of other health reasons? I can't help but think that number would be fairly insignificant. I could be wrong..
Quick search brought up an article from Yale that says the only people who absolutely can't get vaxxed are those who suffer from anaphylaxis to the ingredients. They also strongly suggest pregnant women wait.
That's it.
Also everyone under 12.
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What percent would you estimate the unvaccinated as those who are unable because of other health reasons? I can't help but think that number would be fairly insignificant. I could be wrong..
Quick search brought up an article from Yale that says the only people who absolutely can't get vaxxed are those who suffer from anaphylaxis to the ingredients. They also strongly suggest pregnant women wait.
That's it.
Also everyone under 12.
Bingo - I was specifically thinking of this population when I posted before. And this is very worrisome for me because as the Delta variant is spreading it is impacting younger and younger populations more severely - probably because they were less likely to get vaccinated during the roll out and/or didn't qualify due to age.
FYI pregnant women are actually advised to get the vaccine by most OB/GYNs. Active Covid in pregnancy is highly risky for both mother and fetus. Evidence shows the protective antibodies from the vaccine can be transferred to the fetus/baby to some degree and even through breastmilk. That said, I can understand a pregnant woman wanting to wait and thus, I don't think the vaccine should be forced on her or anyone for that matter. I agree with Stadler that we reach more hesitant folks through education and discussion. We should be mindful of just who is leading that discussion - trusted folks from inside of particular community is going to be listened to far more than politicians or highly polarizing figures and celebrities.
Outside of children under 12 and pregnant women, the number of people who should be excluded from those who can safely be vaccinated is quite small. Anaphylaxis, a history of guillain barre, some immunocompromised (who actually could get the vax but who may not get full protection, oddly) would fall into those we typically try to protect via herd immunity. Unfortunately, I doubt we get to herd immunity any time soon.
The vaccination of young kids brings up a whole lot of other nuances around making decisions about whether or not to get it. There are some side effects happening related to heart inflammation in especially males. Kids at this point, seem to be much less likely to contract Covid and if they do, to have less severe symptoms. This could be changing with the variants, but even so if I were a parent of a 12 and under, I'd need a lot more convincing at this point. I'm not saying I couldn't be convinced but looking at the risk/benefit ratio as it stands today, I'd likely pass.
Another slightly off topic subject that irks me is this push for a 3rd round of vaccine. At this point, there is not much evidence to suggest it is necessary. And yes, that could change. But there are still many places in the world where folks who want the vaccine cannot even get a first dose in their arms. Ethically how do we all sit with that? Personally, I think that is absolutely absurd.
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Another slightly off topic subject that irks me is this push for a 3rd round of vaccine. At this point, there is not much evidence to suggest it is necessary. And yes, that could change. But there are still many places in the world where folks who want the vaccine cannot even get a first dose in their arms. Ethically how do we all sit with that? Personally, I think that is absolutely absurd.
Ethically? Probably the same way I deal with feeling lucky to have been born in the US. I'm going to have a dinner tonight right?
It is indeed sickening to think there are other humans that have to go through what they go through based solely on where they happen to have been born.
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Another slightly off topic subject that irks me is this push for a 3rd round of vaccine. At this point, there is not much evidence to suggest it is necessary. And yes, that could change. But there are still many places in the world where folks who want the vaccine cannot even get a first dose in their arms. Ethically how do we all sit with that? Personally, I think that is absolutely absurd.
Ethically? Probably the same way I deal with feeling lucky to have been born in the US. I'm going to have a dinner tonight right?
It is indeed sickening to think there are other humans that have to go through what they go through based solely on where they happen to have been born.
In my mind I just see the pharma company executives looking like Mr. Burns at the thought of another round.
I know....I know....we should be grateful and I am to the scientists who made the vaccine. It's just..... :censored
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Yes... full disclosure I am the parent of an under 12.
As of now, it's hard to say. We've got him all his other shots. His pediatrician hasn't said one word about a COVID vax, though. He deals with some form of asthma too, though, which leads me to believe the benefits would outweigh the risks. But it's a really tough call, whenever that bridge needs to be crossed. That's why, to me, vaccines are not and have never been the TOTAL answer. But enough people who can get them and feel safe doing so (I'm in this category) need to do so in order to mitigate the risks of everyone out there with legitimate questions and concerns. Because if that doesn't happen there are indeed a lot of people going to be at risk and unnecessarily so.
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I'm afraid that this'll turn into a seasonal thing where well have to get a variant shot annually, like the flu.
On a side note, just got word my main worker and delivery guy will be out until he gets vaccinated, the company I contract for drew the line. I've been telling him for months it would happen, and now he's all fucking surprised. Fucking dipshit.
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Another slightly off topic subject that irks me is this push for a 3rd round of vaccine. At this point, there is not much evidence to suggest it is necessary. And yes, that could change. But there are still many places in the world where folks who want the vaccine cannot even get a first dose in their arms. Ethically how do we all sit with that? Personally, I think that is absolutely absurd.
Ethically? Probably the same way I deal with feeling lucky to have been born in the US. I'm going to have a dinner tonight right?
It is indeed sickening to think there are other humans that have to go through what they go through based solely on where they happen to have been born.
It's not sickening. That is just how life is. Life is not butterflies and rainbows. Life is in reality, cruel and hard. And these people whom "You(in general)" consider to be helpless without a vaccine, likely do not want it because they are in their belief their own medicines and ways of life, their lifestyle they've been doing since the dawn of time, is all they need to survive.
Entitlement over others is a big issue with people. And this entitlement leads to entitlement over another persons decisions and choices as they do not align with yours.
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Another slightly off topic subject that irks me is this push for a 3rd round of vaccine. At this point, there is not much evidence to suggest it is necessary. And yes, that could change. But there are still many places in the world where folks who want the vaccine cannot even get a first dose in their arms. Ethically how do we all sit with that? Personally, I think that is absolutely absurd.
Ethically? Probably the same way I deal with feeling lucky to have been born in the US. I'm going to have a dinner tonight right?
It is indeed sickening to think there are other humans that have to go through what they go through based solely on where they happen to have been born.
In my mind I just see the pharma company executives looking like Mr. Burns at the thought of another round.
I know....I know....we should be grateful and I am to the scientists who made the vaccine. It's just..... :censored
Of course they are....It's why I posted that possible Tomato Vaccine, and the idea of Edible Vaccines. But that is dismissed and not even considered because of that mindset of profit gains from marketing and selling their product. Putting slander on the other vaccines on the market, which creates a monopoly of vaccines. Like how patenting life made Monsanto patent seeds, and how that affected all the farmers. Which also means you can patent vaccines and viruses.
Everything in this world now has become a product, that the entire system of the world is ran under the economic mindset and values for the economic growth of profit gains.
I'm afraid that this'll turn into a seasonal thing where well have to get a variant shot annually, like the flu.
On a side note, just got word my main worker and delivery guy will be out until he gets vaccinated, the company I contract for drew the line. I've been telling him for months it would happen, and now he's all fucking surprised. Fucking dipshit.
And people will not want to get constant booster shots every year, so most people that are currently vaccinated will not want to get the booster shots.
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Another slightly off topic subject that irks me is this push for a 3rd round of vaccine. At this point, there is not much evidence to suggest it is necessary. And yes, that could change. But there are still many places in the world where folks who want the vaccine cannot even get a first dose in their arms. Ethically how do we all sit with that? Personally, I think that is absolutely absurd.
Ethically? Probably the same way I deal with feeling lucky to have been born in the US. I'm going to have a dinner tonight right?
It is indeed sickening to think there are other humans that have to go through what they go through based solely on where they happen to have been born.
It's not sickening. That is just how life is. Life is not butterflies and rainbows. Life is in reality, cruel and hard.
Yeah, and it's sickening too.
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In my mind I just see the pharma company executives looking like Mr. Burns at the thought of another round.
Sure, but I have zero energy in my life to concern myself with that.
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Another slightly off topic subject that irks me is this push for a 3rd round of vaccine. At this point, there is not much evidence to suggest it is necessary. And yes, that could change. But there are still many places in the world where folks who want the vaccine cannot even get a first dose in their arms. Ethically how do we all sit with that? Personally, I think that is absolutely absurd.
Ethically? Probably the same way I deal with feeling lucky to have been born in the US. I'm going to have a dinner tonight right?
It is indeed sickening to think there are other humans that have to go through what they go through based solely on where they happen to have been born.
It's not sickening. That is just how life is. Life is not butterflies and rainbows. Life is in reality, cruel and hard.
Yeah, and it's sickening too.
Yup, and we do things to life itself that causes it to become even more sickening and worse off for all of us that live on this Earth. And this is from other things besides not taking a vaccine.
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:huh:
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:huh:
We put stuff in our foods for convenience of not having to grow a garden.
We put stuff in the air for convenience to not have to walk and spend lots of time to travel across the pond.
These things have an effect on our overall health, and also have an effect on the quality of life. These things cause sickness for animals, plants, and water life. This is why we fought and stood against the pipeline. As the effect of the spills will have a long term effect on our future generations.
It's why I say. If we want to look in the longterm of not getting these future mutations, what is one doing for themselves besides vaccines. What is one doing to not develop unhealthy conditions that are easily preventable by a simple lifestyle change?
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:huh:
We put stuff in our foods for convenience of not having to grow a garden.
My wife has tried to grow a garden, but I can't live on one fucking zucchini and a couple of small green tomatoes a month.
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:huh:
We put stuff in our foods for convenience of not having to grow a garden.
My wife has tried to grow a garden, but I can't live on one fucking zucchini and a couple of small green tomatoes a month.
And that's the consequence of having urban areas. As you put more people in an enclosed area by building up and relying on outside sources for survival needs.
But, as is said. Life isn't easy. It's hard. And it's what we have to do if we want the best quality food that has all the nutrients our body needs to keep us healthy and strong. Or else, we sacrifice that nutrition for the product that has chemicals that help it stay more fresh, be so big, and last on your counter longer than the one freshly picked from the garden or tree. Which then we end up lacking these nutrients and get illnesses because we are not getting these nutrients our bodies need to work properly. All because it's more convenient and easier and requires less physical work to go to the grocery store.
Gardening is not as simple as people think it is either. There's a lot of things to know, like the soil, the plants and their habitats, dealing with the weather and the invasive bugs, like the squash bugs. It's a lot of work. This is what the farmers do for all the produce and products in the grocery stores. Food still has to grow somewhere and someone still has to do the farming.
But check this out...
I Grew and Foraged 100% of My Food for an Entire Year (https://youtu.be/nX4kq4QfYRA)
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:huh:
We put stuff in our foods for convenience of not having to grow a garden.
My wife has tried to grow a garden, but I can't live on one fucking zucchini and a couple of small green tomatoes a month.
And that's the consequence of having urban areas. As you put more people in an enclosed area by building up and relying on outside sources for survival needs. [/url]
Baloney. Our garden kicks ass. It takes a while to prosper.
The first time you try to play Stairway to Heaven it sounds like shit. But in time, with practice, you own it. Just like gardening.
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:huh:
We put stuff in our foods for convenience of not having to grow a garden.
My wife has tried to grow a garden, but I can't live on one fucking zucchini and a couple of small green tomatoes a month.
And that's the consequence of having urban areas. As you put more people in an enclosed area by building up and relying on outside sources for survival needs.
But I live in a small town in the country.
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And that's the consequence of having urban areas. As you put more people in an enclosed area by building up and relying on outside sources for survival needs. [/url]
Baloney. Our garden kicks ass. It takes a while to prosper.
You'll have to excuse me if I'm dying laughing while picturing you...gardening.
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By our, I mean my wife. Lol She kicks ass. Green thumb. Me, I'm the chef with all she produces.
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By our, I mean my wife. Lol She kicks ass. Green thumb. Me, I'm the chef with all she produces.
Let me guess, you tend to the cattle?
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Lawn boy.
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Lawn Jockey.
Fixed.
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Lawn Jockey.
Fixed.
I look like Jaba on his thrown driving my lawnmower.
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:huh:
We put stuff in our foods for convenience of not having to grow a garden.
My wife has tried to grow a garden, but I can't live on one fucking zucchini and a couple of small green tomatoes a month.
And that's the consequence of having urban areas. As you put more people in an enclosed area by building up and relying on outside sources for survival needs.
But I live in a small town in the country.
:tup
Even better, as you can grow more. Plants require a lot of care and tendering too. Some plants you have to baby. Pests are also a big issue, but if you are on them every morning and night, or during the day to rid them from your plants then your plants will produce. What I do for my squash bugs is put them in a cup filled with soap water and they drown, and also being consistent with the eggs is critical or else they'll hatch and you have an infestation of bugs, which is lot's of fun trying to get them all, nice and stinky work.
:huh:
We put stuff in our foods for convenience of not having to grow a garden.
My wife has tried to grow a garden, but I can't live on one fucking zucchini and a couple of small green tomatoes a month.
And that's the consequence of having urban areas. As you put more people in an enclosed area by building up and relying on outside sources for survival needs. [/url]
Baloney. Our garden kicks ass. It takes a while to prosper.
The first time you try to play Stairway to Heaven it sounds like shit. But in time, with practice, you own it. Just like gardening.
That's good to hear. And one aspect I like to be proven wrong about.
I agree. It does take time. Especially in brand new soil that hasn't had anything growing. There are ways to replenish soil enough to plant. It's awesome actually.
There's also ways urban areas are developing to grow farms, such as vertical farming. Which are interesting to see as well.
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Zucchini
Summer squash
Kale
Tomatoes (4 varieties)
Red leaf lettuce
Green leaf lettuce
Cauliflower
Brussel sprouts
Green beans
Cucumbers
Green beans
Sugar snap peas
Asparagus
Chives
Green onion
Rhubarb
Grapes
Blueberries
Strawberries
Swiss chard
Spinach
And many herbs
Oh, and hops for beer.
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:huh:
We put stuff in our foods for convenience of not having to grow a garden.
My wife has tried to grow a garden, but I can't live on one fucking zucchini and a couple of small green tomatoes a month.
And that's the consequence of having urban areas. As you put more people in an enclosed area by building up and relying on outside sources for survival needs.
But, as is said. Life isn't easy. It's hard. And it's what we have to do if we want the best quality food that has all the nutrients our body needs to keep us healthy and strong. Or else, we sacrifice that nutrition for the product that has chemicals that help it stay more fresh, be so big, and last on your counter longer than the one freshly picked from the garden or tree. Which then we end up lacking these nutrients and get illnesses because we are not getting these nutrients our bodies need to work properly. All because it's more convenient and easier and requires less physical work to go to the grocery store.
Gardening is not as simple as people think it is either. There's a lot of things to know, like the soil, the plants and their habitats, dealing with the weather and the invasive bugs, like the squash bugs. It's a lot of work. This is what the farmers do for all the produce and products in the grocery stores. Food still has to grow somewhere and someone still has to do the farming.
But check this out...
I Grew and Foraged 100% of My Food for an Entire Year (https://youtu.be/nX4kq4QfYRA)
Do I look like a fucking caveman?
I hate cooking and preparing a meal with more than a couple of ingredients so there is no fucking way, I'm growing my own shit, ever. Just because I don't though, it doesn't mean I don't eat well and pick good food to eat daily. Sure I don't know exactly how it was grown but it bet it's better than growing in my backyard.
My misses tried growing some tomatoes and shit once, and I didn't realise we had so many fucking cats around our joint. I love you outlook but I just people don't have the time and energy to live like we did back in the day, we live in a different day and age.
I agree the world is slowly going down the toilet, but it isn't going to change.
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Ben, you also say about putting people in rural areas, the population is growing, how are we supposed to combat that? The growth in my area alone with new housing estates getting built yearly is incredible. New houses built all the time and more and more people moving in.
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Zucchini
Summer squash
Kale
Tomatoes (4 varieties)
Red leaf lettuce
Green leaf lettuce
Cauliflower
Brussel sprouts
Green beans
Cucumbers
Green beans
Sugar snap peas
Asparagus
Chives
Green onion
Rhubarb
Grapes
Blueberries
Strawberries
Swiss chard
Spinach
And many herbs
Oh, and hops for beer.
GTFO! :lol
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Never heard of a green onion. :huh:
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Never heard of a green onion. :huh:
Scallions
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Zucchini
Summer squash
Kale
Tomatoes (4 varieties)
Red leaf lettuce
Green leaf lettuce
Cauliflower
Brussel sprouts
Green beans
Cucumbers
Green beans
Sugar snap peas
Asparagus
Chives
Green onion
Rhubarb
Grapes
Blueberries
Strawberries
Swiss chard
Spinach
And many herbs
Oh, and hops for beer.
GTFO! :lol
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pq6m2Jg8/FuckYEA.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfLdKrs9)
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Never heard of a green onion. :huh:
Scallions
Ah. I had to google that but we call them spring onions.
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Love them in my eggs on the weekends.
Oh, and Coronavirus sucks.
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My misses tried growing some tomatoes and shit once, and I didn't realise we had so many fucking cats around our joint.
Fuckers!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pq6m2Jg8/FuckYEA.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfLdKrs9)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFFuS64XUAApqPV.jpg)
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Scallions are what every fucking restaurant feels the need to chop and serve on top of whatever dish you order. If I get them I send it back and tell them to make me a whole new plate. And if I think they simply picked them off, I still demand a new meal! Assholes!
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My misses tried growing some tomatoes and shit once, and I didn't realise we had so many fucking cats around our joint.
Fuckers!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pq6m2Jg8/FuckYEA.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfLdKrs9)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFFuS64XUAApqPV.jpg)
Damn straight mofo!!
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Scallions are what every fucking restaurant feels the need to chop and serve on top of whatever dish you order. If I get them I send it back and tell them to make me a whole new plate. And if I think they simply picked them off, I still demand a new meal! Assholes!
With all due respect, don't ever come to my place.
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Scallions are what every fucking restaurant feels the need to chop and serve on top of whatever dish you order. If I get them I send it back and tell them to make me a whole new plate. And if I think they simply picked them off, I still demand a new meal! Assholes!
With all due respect, don't ever come to my place.
Nah, you can do better than that. If someone is so insecure in their plate that they need to add something pretty and green on top, then why not parsley or a twig of something that I can easily remove. Why add something so pungent that it fucks with the flavor profile? Plus try picking them out of mashed potatoes. Fuck that. It’s going back.
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Lawn Jockey.
Fixed.
You'll have to excuse me if I'm dying laughing while picturing Joe ... as a jockey on a horse. Zydar, please photoshop something for us.
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Scallions are what every fucking restaurant feels the need to chop and serve on top of whatever dish you order. If I get them I send it back and tell them to make me a whole new plate. And if I think they simply picked them off, I still demand a new meal! Assholes!
The sea was angry that day, my friends!
-
Zucchini
Summer squash
Kale
Tomatoes (4 varieties)
Red leaf lettuce
Green leaf lettuce
Cauliflower
Brussel sprouts
Green beans
Cucumbers
Green beans
Sugar snap peas
Asparagus
Chives
Green onion
Rhubarb
Grapes
Blueberries
Strawberries
Swiss chard
Spinach
And many herbs
Oh, and hops for beer.
I for some reason read that in my head like the Pokemon rap.
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Scallions are what every fucking restaurant feels the need to chop and serve on top of whatever dish you order. If I get them I send it back and tell them to make me a whole new plate. And if I think they simply picked them off, I still demand a new meal! Assholes!
With all due respect, don't ever come to my place.
Nah, you can do better than that. If someone is so insecure in their plate that they need to add something pretty and green on top, then why not parsley or a twig of something that I can easily remove. Why add something so pungent that it fucks with the flavor profile? Plus try picking them out of mashed potatoes. Fuck that. It’s going back.
First, I was just kidding around. But honestly, I hope you ask for no onions when you order, since that shit is everywhere. Personally I'd never use them as a garnish, I tend more towards micro greens or a nice salsa or relish.
Picking them out of the dish and sending it back to the customer is a cardinal sin in a kitchen.
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*opens thread* hrmm I'm behind a few pages, let me just skip to the end *sees TAC flipping out over scallions and a list of produce*
Interesting turn of events on this thread :lol
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Scallions are what every fucking restaurant feels the need to chop and serve on top of whatever dish you order. If I get them I send it back and tell them to make me a whole new plate. And if I think they simply picked them off, I still demand a new meal! Assholes!
With all due respect, don't ever come to my place.
Nah, you can do better than that. If someone is so insecure in their plate that they need to add something pretty and green on top, then why not parsley or a twig of something that I can easily remove. Why add something so pungent that it fucks with the flavor profile? Plus try picking them out of mashed potatoes. Fuck that. It’s going back.
Do you tell the servers with every meal not to add these no matter what you order? :lol As there are not normally listed on the menu items as they are just used as a light garnish.
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Scallions are what every fucking restaurant feels the need to chop and serve on top of whatever dish you order. If I get them I send it back and tell them to make me a whole new plate. And if I think they simply picked them off, I still demand a new meal! Assholes!
With all due respect, don't ever come to my place.
Nah, you can do better than that. If someone is so insecure in their plate that they need to add something pretty and green on top, then why not parsley or a twig of something that I can easily remove. Why add something so pungent that it fucks with the flavor profile? Plus try picking them out of mashed potatoes. Fuck that. It’s going back.
Do you tell the servers with every meal not to add these no matter what you order? :lol As there are not normally listed on the menu items as they are just used as a light garnish.
I know from posts elsewhere that he abhors onions, so I'd hope so.
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Had some basic chicken breasts tonight with a shit ton of grilled white caramalised onions actually, was glorious.
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I'm waiting for a mod to come in and tell us all to take it to the food thread...
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I always have red onions raw in salads too. So good.
I'm waiting for a mod to come in and tell us all to take it to the food thread...
It's Ben 's fault.
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I always have red onions raw in salads too. So good.
I'm waiting for a mod to come in and tell us all to take it to the food thread...
It's Ben 's fault.
It usually is.
Onions are god tier food, anyone who thinks otherwise has a dead palate.
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Onions really are amazing.
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So what you’re all saying is that if we just ate more onions, we’d all be naturally immune to COVID?
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So what you’re all saying is that if we just ate more onions, we’d all be naturally immune to COVID?
Except Tim...cause he hates fucking onions.
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So what you’re all saying is that if we just ate more onions, we’d all be naturally immune to COVID?
Except Tim...cause he hates fucking onions.
I’m anti-onion. I refuse to be onionated.
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So what you’re all saying is that if we just ate more onions, we’d all be naturally immune to COVID?
Except Tim...cause he hates fucking onions.
I’m anti-onion. I refuse to be onionated.
Listen, I don’t want to ridicule or berate you for your position. But let’s really get raw with it. Let’s peel back some of those layers and have a good cry. See if a bulb goes off.
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So what you’re all saying is that if we just ate more onions, we’d all be naturally immune to COVID?
Except Tim...cause he hates fucking onions.
I’m anti-onion. I refuse to be onionated.
Listen, I don’t want to ridicule or berate you for your position. But let’s really get raw with it. Let’s peel back some of those layers and have a good cry. See if a bulb goes off.
We don’t know the side effects. What if I turn red? Or what if rings appear? What if I start blooming’?
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I always have red onions raw in salads too. So good.
I'm waiting for a mod to come in and tell us all to take it to the food thread...
It's Ben 's fault.
It's not unrelated as I did post about Edible Vaccines, yet the discussion went more towards gardening and Tim's dislike for Scallions. :lol
Here's some more info about Edible Vaccines...
Some scientists believe that vaccines could be produced in edible plants, such as bananas or potatoes, which would then provide the delivery vehicle. This approach would yield vaccines that are needle-free and require no adjuvants, chemicals that stimulate the immune response. When the plant is ingested, the plant cell walls would protect the vaccine antigens from degradation by stomach acid and digestive enzymes. Then in the intestine, the antigens would be released and transported into the circulatory system. Edible vaccines would stimulate both mucosal and systemic immunity, providing a higher level of protection than traditional vaccines.
https://biosecurity.fas.org/education/dualuse-agriculture/2.-agricultural-biotechnology/making-edible-vaccines-in-plants.html
https://www.biotechnologynotes.com/transgenic-plants/edible-vaccines-applications-advantages-and-limitations/627
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I always have red onions raw in salads too. So good.
I'm waiting for a mod to come in and tell us all to take it to the food thread...
It's Ben 's fault.
It usually is.
:spitcoffee:
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
This exactly.
Just saying that anyone can get it who wants it is great. Wish for more vaccinations all you want*, but the reality is 40%+ of the US are unvaccinated. Are you just going to ignore or disregard them? Not provide them healthcare? Hospitals can still be overwhelmed with the Delta variant - and subsequent/potential others. How do you protect that 40% from themselves (collectively), or do you (royal) just not care?
*insert Bad Santa line here.
We're going to do what we always do when people do things that have (undue) risk. When those skiers jump out of helicopters and get caught in an avalanche, we go save them. When boaters get caught too far ashore in a storm they can't navigate, we go save them. When someone eats McDonald's and Diet Coke to the point they need a crane to get out of bed, we go help them. When people have unprotected sex and end up with an STD, we treat them.
Except those skiiers, boaters, McDonald's eaters, and bareback fuckers aren't creating 10s or potentially 100s of thousands of daily illnesses that continue to spread, many requiring hospitalization. Seems like a false equivalency. Actions and choices of undue risk are different from actions and choices that spread public un-health.
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Yeah, unfortunately my impression is that many of those who have been using the lack of full FDA authorization as a rationale for not taking the vaccine will simply find another reason to not take it. I watched a video of a guy yesterday, it was taken the day before he died from complications of the caronavirus and in the video he rants about how the "china virus is a hoax" in between gasps of air in his oxygen mask. Swears he just has a "bad flu" and will be "back on his feet in a couple of days" at the end of the video it said he died the next morning, basically suffocated to death as his lungs filled up with fluid because he never got vaccinated and caught the delta variant. He lived 10 days from the onset of symptoms and spent 9 days, 23 and a half hours of it ranting and raving about vaccine conspiracy theories, only when he was minutes from death did he admit that he might have made a mistake. I don't cry a lot but that video made me cry when I saw his daughter's reaction to the news. His 6 year old daughter. Fuck. :( I tried to find the video but they made it private.
IMO, citing the lack of FORMAL approval from the FDA as the cause to not get vaccinated is irrational, and for most people is probably a 'front' for other reasons to not get it. I'll bet next week's paycheque that formal approval doesn't move the needle AT ALL to increase daily vaccinations. Serious as a heart attack. Anyone wanna make that bet with me? I'll even give odds at + 190
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I agree with you on that last part Marc, and am going to be fucking pissed if they reinstate mask mandates here...
Local bay area health officials, who cater to about 10 million people in the bay area, have 'strongly recommended' that vaccinated people wear masks indoors.... To protect the unvaccinated...
:zeltar:
Boy, that didn't take long, eh? It's only a matter of time that places start legislating it again. My guess is it's no later than the end of the month for a LOT of local / state decisions.
Remember everyone, the data that is seen at any given time around the cases/hospitalizations is as a result of actions 2-3 weeks prior. What ya'll are seeing now is the result of the long weekend festivities and gatherings, as well as restrictions that were loosened at the end of June.
It's infuriating those that care about public health* are "infringed" upon due to the people that seemingly don't**
*Those that willingly and graciously accepted the mask requirements in the past, as well as went out and got vaccinated.
** Those that won't get vaccinated are the primary cause for the spread increasing again.
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Scallions are what every fucking restaurant feels the need to chop and serve on top of whatever dish you order. If I get them I send it back and tell them to make me a whole new plate. And if I think they simply picked them off, I still demand a new meal! Assholes!
With all due respect, don't ever come to my place.
Nah, you can do better than that. If someone is so insecure in their plate that they need to add something pretty and green on top, then why not parsley or a twig of something that I can easily remove. Why add something so pungent that it fucks with the flavor profile? Plus try picking them out of mashed potatoes. Fuck that. It’s going back.
damn, I love the flavor scallions bring! This is more offensive than some of the anti vaccine comments here :lol
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Local bay area health officials, who cater to about 10 million people in the bay area, have 'strongly recommended' that vaccinated people wear masks indoors.... To protect the unvaccinated...
:zeltar:
Saw this cause Chad quoted it but regardless of my sitting with a fence up my ass, this is where I start to take offense. I fucking hate wearing these masks out. I can be in the grocery store for 10 minutes and I can't wait to rip this thing from my face.
Getting rid of masks would probably be one of the tipping points in me taking a jab truthfully, but if I got a shot for whatever reason and I had to wear a mask to protect people that haven't gotten a shot, now fuck that and fuck them.
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
This is the exact reason why I AM for vaccine mandates and no I am not advocating knocking down doors and prick people at gunpoint but I do think the unvaccinated privilege's need to be curtailed.
It's maddening to me that we restrict peoples liberties all the time in the name of saving lives but we can't do it with this health crisis? Good fucking grief, I'm tired of wearing masks too but the unvaccinated will ensure that this will keep happening and because of the data we now have, we can point the finger right at the source of the problem.
Call me selfish but I for one WANT a return to normalcy even if we have to curb "liberties" because I AM concerned about a variant jumping the virus and if this happens then as you say, we're ALL fucked.
That's easy to say when you don't value the liberties you're taking from other people as highly as they do. Why does your fear of being sick trump someone else's fear of putting something they don't want in their body (for whatever reason)
The problem with mandates, of course, is enforcing them. There's little concern with childhood mandates, because even if you prevent them from going to school, the "patient" has alternatives (home school, no school, etc., which only really compounds the problem; now you have an un- or poorly educated, unvaccinated child). What are you going to do? Prevent them from going to Starbucks? Fine them? Okay, so the town is $100 richer, but we're still faced with an unvaccinated person who's now pissed off that he was made to spend the $100 to protect what was his to begin with.
Still far better off trying to educate and push for as high a rate as we can from the people willing, and as in depth an outreach as we can for those that appear now to be unwilling.
Oh I value liberty all right. In fact, I would argue I value liberty more than the ones arguing for not getting vaccinated because their choice may get people killed so yeah, my (and others) concerns that a variant might jump the vaccine supersedes others rights. Think if typhoid Mary were allowed to keep cooking how many more people would have died. Are you good with her being free to do this?
Look, I am all for outreach for the uneducated but there are those who refuse to get vaccinated for either political reasons or religious reasons and they pose a clear and present danger to all of our civil liberties.
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Local bay area health officials, who cater to about 10 million people in the bay area, have 'strongly recommended' that vaccinated people wear masks indoors.... To protect the unvaccinated...
:zeltar:
Saw this cause Chad quoted it but regardless of my sitting with a fence up my ass, this is where I start to take offense. I fucking hate wearing these masks out. I can be in the grocery store for 10 minutes and I can't wait to rip this thing from my face.
Getting rid of masks would probably be one of the tipping points in me taking a jab truthfully, but if I got a shot for whatever reason and I had to wear a mask to protect people that haven't gotten a shot, now fuck that and fuck them.
My feelings exactly...and I'd say were a few percentage points in the positivity rate from it being 'strongly recommended' to a mandate.
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Local bay area health officials, who cater to about 10 million people in the bay area, have 'strongly recommended' that vaccinated people wear masks indoors.... To protect the unvaccinated...
:zeltar:
Saw this cause Chad quoted it but regardless of my sitting with a fence up my ass, this is where I start to take offense. I fucking hate wearing these masks out. I can be in the grocery store for 10 minutes and I can't wait to rip this thing from my face.
Getting rid of masks would probably be one of the tipping points in me taking a jab truthfully, but if I got a shot for whatever reason and I had to wear a mask to protect people that haven't gotten a shot, now fuck that and fuck them.
My feelings exactly...and I'd say were a few percentage points in the positivity rate from it being 'strongly recommended' to a mandate.
My feelings too.
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Scallions are what every fucking restaurant feels the need to chop and serve on top of whatever dish you order. If I get them I send it back and tell them to make me a whole new plate. And if I think they simply picked them off, I still demand a new meal! Assholes!
I so want to see that in action. :) :) :)
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It has happened.
When I order a burger, I tell the wait staff ahead of time that I do NOT want the onion/tomato/lettuce set up on the plate. I've also learned that these are all sitting in a fridge already prepped, because I've asked for no onion, and the lettuce and tomato still smell and taste like onion.
If the wait staff asks if I want lettuce and tomato, I make it clear that I don't want it from the setup.
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
This exactly.
Just saying that anyone can get it who wants it is great. Wish for more vaccinations all you want*, but the reality is 40%+ of the US are unvaccinated. Are you just going to ignore or disregard them? Not provide them healthcare? Hospitals can still be overwhelmed with the Delta variant - and subsequent/potential others. How do you protect that 40% from themselves (collectively), or do you (royal) just not care?
*insert Bad Santa line here.
We're going to do what we always do when people do things that have (undue) risk. When those skiers jump out of helicopters and get caught in an avalanche, we go save them. When boaters get caught too far ashore in a storm they can't navigate, we go save them. When someone eats McDonald's and Diet Coke to the point they need a crane to get out of bed, we go help them. When people have unprotected sex and end up with an STD, we treat them.
Except those skiiers, boaters, McDonald's eaters, and bareback fuckers aren't creating 10s or potentially 100s of thousands of daily illnesses that continue to spread, many requiring hospitalization. Seems like a false equivalency. Actions and choices of undue risk are different from actions and choices that spread public un-health.
Everything I say is a false equivalency according to some. So be it. I tend to see the world as a more strategic place, whereas most people tend to see the world as a more tactical place. I've been dealing with this for going on 54 years now and I'm at peace with it. FOR ME, the false equivalency is and always has been in inserting YOUR judgement, in this case as to what is "undue".
Take that skier, and factor in the cost of saving that ONE person, and when you do that, make sure you add in all the training, all the equipment, all the readiness that goes into that ONE rescue that isn't a cat in a tree. Factor in the time drain from dedicating resources to that ONE rescue and what they could be accomplishing if they were allowed to spread their "touch" to the community at large.
Now contrast with the fact that there are ALREADY 10 or 100's of thousands of viruses out there that can make you seriously sick or kill you, and we're adding one more to the mix. If you're that worried about contracting an air-borne virus, you ought to be already. If that's the case, wear a mask; no one is stopping you, no one can tell you otherwise. THIS is the devil we know, so this is the devil we focus on. That doesn't make it the ONLY devil in our midst.
As for mutations, despite the deplorable assholes that are dragging this country into the sewer because <GASP!> they don't vote like we do (I kid!, I kid!), we still have one of the better vaccination rates on the planet. I'm no virologist, but if the virus is going to mutate, I'm pretty sure its not going to say "well, let me stick it to those Trump-loving, "I will not consent" assholes living in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, how about that!". If you're going to play the odds, PLAY THE ODDS, not just the odds that fit the worldview or are confined to our little piece of geography. We've already done more than our share of improving our planet's chances of minimizing the potentiality of a mutation, and we're still very much exposed to the possibility of a mutation regardless of whether Eric, Jr. gets the shot. And if that mutation jumps the vaccine, it's going to jump the vaccine regardless.
I certainly do get the idea of doing everything we, individually, can do to help the population as a whole - and I've done it; I'm fully vaccinated, as is my entire immediate family other than my 13-year-old step son - but for me, some of this analysis and some of these concerns transcend that. And as much as some of us seem abhorred by the idea of a reinstitution of a mask/social distance environment, it's likely going to be the least restrictive means of addressing the public health issue (that's a requirement of law), since it can be applied regionally, and involves no invasion of personal privacy.
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Stadler....what's the difference between strategic and tactical? :lol
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It has happened.
When I order a burger, I tell the wait staff ahead of time that I do NOT want the onion/tomato/lettuce set up on the plate. I've also learned that these are all sitting in a fridge already prepped, because I've asked for no onion, and the lettuce and tomato still smell and taste like onion.
If the wait staff asks if I want lettuce and tomato, I make it clear that I don't want it from the setup.
For various reasons, my stepson is the same way (his burgers are meat and cheese, that's it; he doesn't even want the pickle juice to get in the bun as it sometimes does) and we have to go through something similar. I will give you this: I know they have to run a business, but it's frustrating how often people in that position don't listen or aren't given the flexibility to move beyond the process when the situation warrants.
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Stadler....what's the difference between strategic and tactical? :lol
Seriously, or no? I see the "lol", but a lot of people don't understand the difference.
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Stadler....what's the difference between strategic and tactical? :lol
Seriously, or no? I see the "lol", but a lot of people don't understand the difference.
Well, I guess I don't understand either. I read that in the first paragraph, and thought...I'm already confused.
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As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate. Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated. The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.
This is the exact reason why I AM for vaccine mandates and no I am not advocating knocking down doors and prick people at gunpoint but I do think the unvaccinated privilege's need to be curtailed.
It's maddening to me that we restrict peoples liberties all the time in the name of saving lives but we can't do it with this health crisis? Good fucking grief, I'm tired of wearing masks too but the unvaccinated will ensure that this will keep happening and because of the data we now have, we can point the finger right at the source of the problem.
Call me selfish but I for one WANT a return to normalcy even if we have to curb "liberties" because I AM concerned about a variant jumping the virus and if this happens then as you say, we're ALL fucked.
That's easy to say when you don't value the liberties you're taking from other people as highly as they do. Why does your fear of being sick trump someone else's fear of putting something they don't want in their body (for whatever reason)
The problem with mandates, of course, is enforcing them. There's little concern with childhood mandates, because even if you prevent them from going to school, the "patient" has alternatives (home school, no school, etc., which only really compounds the problem; now you have an un- or poorly educated, unvaccinated child). What are you going to do? Prevent them from going to Starbucks? Fine them? Okay, so the town is $100 richer, but we're still faced with an unvaccinated person who's now pissed off that he was made to spend the $100 to protect what was his to begin with.
Still far better off trying to educate and push for as high a rate as we can from the people willing, and as in depth an outreach as we can for those that appear now to be unwilling.
Oh I value liberty all right. In fact, I would argue I value liberty more than the ones arguing for not getting vaccinated because their choice may get people killed so yeah, my (and others) concerns that a variant might jump the vaccine supersedes others rights. Think if typhoid Mary were allowed to keep cooking how many more people would have died. Are you good with her being free to do this?
Well, there's a slight difference of "knowledge". If I KNOW I'm contagious - not "might be", but "know for certain" - it's a different animal.
Look, I am all for outreach for the uneducated but there are those who refuse to get vaccinated for either political reasons or religious reasons and they pose a clear and present danger to all of our civil liberties.
No, they don't and you haven't shown that they do. You do NOT have a right to never be sick.
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Stadler....what's the difference between strategic and tactical? :lol
Seriously, or no? I see the "lol", but a lot of people don't understand the difference.
Well, I guess I don't understand either. I read that in the first paragraph, and thought...I'm already confused.
Strategic thinking is over all-plan, the set of goals, the general roadmap. The jump from "A" to "C". Steve Jobs "creating" the iPod.
Tactical thinking is the linear "A" to "B" to "C". The harddrive will be physical media, there will be a "hold" button, the "wheel" will be a series of microswitches that feed input to the processor...
In a more general sense, it's the difference between thinking of the cause/effect/correlation of two or three discrete variables, versus the more macro "these are ALL the variables that factor in, and what is the outcome?". Strategic thinking is hard and unrewarding, because there are rarely easy outcomes and there are rarely nice, concise starts and ends. Tactical thinking tends - doesn't always, but tends - to ignore the collateral damage and the unintended consequences.
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Look, I am all for outreach for the uneducated but there are those who refuse to get vaccinated for either political reasons or religious reasons and they pose a clear and present danger to all of our civil liberties.
No, they don't and you haven't shown that they do. You do NOT have a right to never be sick.
[/quote]
I DO have the right to have dangerous people around me removed. Right now, the unvaccinated are stressing our health system. Perhaps the answer is to not admit them to a hospital. I'm good with that.
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I DO have the right to have dangerous people around me removed. Right now, the unvaccinated are stressing our health system. Perhaps the answer is to not admit them to a hospital. I'm good with that.
Wow.
Don't get me wrong, I wish everyone would get vaccinated, but suggesting that they not be treated when they do get sick strikes me as a bit unkind.
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Stadler....what's the difference between strategic and tactical? :lol
Seriously, or no? I see the "lol", but a lot of people don't understand the difference.
Well, I guess I don't understand either. I read that in the first paragraph, and thought...I'm already confused.
Strategic thinking is over all-plan, the set of goals, the general roadmap. The jump from "A" to "C". Steve Jobs "creating" the iPod.
Tactical thinking is the linear "A" to "B" to "C". The harddrive will be physical media, there will be a "hold" button, the "wheel" will be a series of microswitches that feed input to the processor...
In a more general sense, it's the difference between thinking of the cause/effect/correlation of two or three discrete variables, versus the more macro "these are ALL the variables that factor in, and what is the outcome?". Strategic thinking is hard and unrewarding, because there are rarely easy outcomes and there are rarely nice, concise starts and ends. Tactical thinking tends - doesn't always, but tends - to ignore the collateral damage and the unintended consequences.
I understand that, and basically understood that straight off. OK, I'll try that post again.
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I DO have the right to have dangerous people around me removed. Right now, the unvaccinated are stressing our health system. Perhaps the answer is to not admit them to a hospital. I'm good with that.
Wow.
Don't get me wrong, I wish everyone would get vaccinated, but suggesting that they not be treated when they do get sick strikes me as a bit unkind.
What's unkind is not getting vaccinated. Think of it as a child on a playground hitting other children with a stick. As an adult, you take the stick away and remove them from the playground for the good of all the other children and parents. Let's leave the hospital beds for patients that really need and WANT help.
Yes, I know I am being extreme but other people are thinking it - I'm just saying it...... :yarr
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Hospitals are not playgrounds.
We do not deny treatment to anyone.
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Hospitals are not playgrounds.
We do not deny treatment to anyone.
I know and I appreciate all who work on the front lines and their service. I'm just expressing my frustration because it's fucking maniacal.
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Hospitals are not playgrounds.
We do not deny treatment to anyone.
I know and I appreciate all who work on the front lines and their service. I'm just expressing my frustration because it's fucking maniacal.
I appreciate your frustration. But there’s no room for cruelty. Even toward those we perceive as harmful. I wouldn’t deny medical help to anyone.
Edit: even Stadler.
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Look, I am all for outreach for the uneducated but there are those who refuse to get vaccinated for either political reasons or religious reasons and they pose a clear and present danger to all of our civil liberties.
No, they don't and you haven't shown that they do. You do NOT have a right to never be sick.
I DO have the right to have dangerous people around me removed. Right now, the unvaccinated are stressing our health system. Perhaps the answer is to not admit them to a hospital. I'm good with that.
[/quote]
You absolutely do not. I don't know where you get that presumption, but on it's face that is NOT a right you have. It's not even close.
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I DO have the right to have dangerous people around me removed. Right now, the unvaccinated are stressing our health system. Perhaps the answer is to not admit them to a hospital. I'm good with that.
Wow.
Don't get me wrong, I wish everyone would get vaccinated, but suggesting that they not be treated when they do get sick strikes me as a bit unkind.
What's unkind is not getting vaccinated. Think of it as a child on a playground hitting other children with a stick. As an adult, you take the stick away and remove them from the playground for the good of all the other children and parents. Let's leave the hospital beds for patients that really need and WANT help.
Yes, I know I am being extreme but other people are thinking it - I'm just saying it...... :yarr
Very serious question, asked honestly so I can understand your point of view. Can you explain where you derive these assumptions? You are, to my view, making a very serious and discrete leap of logic. If I HIT you with a stick, there is a very clear, very tangible assault on your person, and there is no "potential" to that. Whether I ACTUALLY hurt you or not, I have violated your privacy. I can't TOUCH you. I can do that thing that kids do, wave my hands really close to your face to make you flinch, but that's not ASSAULT. It's just not. So to potentially, conceptually put you at a some theoretical level of increased risk - me, in Connecticut, not vaccinating has only a conceptual theoretical impact on your risk profile, but in no way, shape or form under ANY construct have I "assaulted" you - is a possibility, but that's not the same thing as what you are talking about. There's no TANGIBLE impact to you, only potential.
Where then do you perceive the right to ACTUALLY and TANGIBLY impinge on the stated rights to personal privacy that have been a part of our jurisprudence for almost a century?
And I think you're being presumptuous about "other people thinking it". I know I'm not.
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Hospitals are not playgrounds.
We do not deny treatment to anyone.
I know and I appreciate all who work on the front lines and their service. I'm just expressing my frustration because it's fucking maniacal.
I appreciate your frustration. But there’s no room for cruelty. Even toward those we perceive as harmful. I wouldn’t deny medical help to anyone.
Edit: even Stadler.
I would not consider myself either cruel or harmful. I believe myself - at least in the day-to-day - to be a rather compassionate, caring person.
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Hospitals are not playgrounds.
We do not deny treatment to anyone.
I know and I appreciate all who work on the front lines and their service. I'm just expressing my frustration because it's fucking maniacal.
I appreciate your frustration. But there’s no room for cruelty. Even toward those we perceive as harmful. I wouldn’t deny medical help to anyone.
Edit: even Stadler.
I would not consider myself either cruel or harmful. I believe myself - at least in the day-to-day - to be a rather compassionate, caring person.
You already got medical coverage, no need to beef up your CV for some. :-*
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I appreciate your frustration. But there’s no room for cruelty. Even toward those we perceive as harmful. I wouldn’t deny medical help to anyone.
Agreed. I get the frustration as well, but I cannot get on board with cruelty either. And that is the problem which some of us have touched on before, is that too many nowadays take the "if you are not on my side, you can f off" approach, or (to paraphrase) "if you are not on my side, you can rot to death rather than receive medical care" in this instance. I would say I am shocked to see someone here say something like that, but nothing surprises me anymore, sadly.
And I think you're being presumptuous about "other people thinking it". I know I'm not.
Amen to that. Those refusing to get vaccinated aggravate the hell out of me as well, but I would never wish death or harm on them.
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I DO have the right to have dangerous people around me removed. Right now, the unvaccinated are stressing our health system. Perhaps the answer is to not admit them to a hospital. I'm good with that.
Wow.
Don't get me wrong, I wish everyone would get vaccinated, but suggesting that they not be treated when they do get sick strikes me as a bit unkind.
What's unkind is not getting vaccinated. Think of it as a child on a playground hitting other children with a stick. As an adult, you take the stick away and remove them from the playground for the good of all the other children and parents. Let's leave the hospital beds for patients that really need and WANT help.
Yes, I know I am being extreme but other people are thinking it - I'm just saying it...... :yarr
There's people that want and need health-care but get denied because they do not have insurance, and can't "afford" the healthcare that they desperately want and need.
Is that unkind? I think it is.
Even if you do get vaccinated, who's to say you won't be denied because you also do not have health insurance and can't afford the high, luxury of being treated and healed.
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I DO have the right to have dangerous people around me removed. Right now, the unvaccinated are stressing our health system. Perhaps the answer is to not admit them to a hospital. I'm good with that.
Wow.
Don't get me wrong, I wish everyone would get vaccinated, but suggesting that they not be treated when they do get sick strikes me as a bit unkind.
What's unkind is not getting vaccinated. Think of it as a child on a playground hitting other children with a stick. As an adult, you take the stick away and remove them from the playground for the good of all the other children and parents. Let's leave the hospital beds for patients that really need and WANT help.
Yes, I know I am being extreme but other people are thinking it - I'm just saying it...... :yarr
There's people that want and need health-care but get denied because they do not have insurance, and can't "afford" the healthcare that they desperately want and need.
Is that unkind? I think it is.
Even if you do get vaccinated, who's to say you won't be denied because you also do not have health insurance and can't afford the high, luxury of being treated and healed.
No one is denied in hospitals in the US. I'm good with this. Hypothetically if, all things equal with one hospital bed left, there was one unvaccinated American with covid and someone else who were fighting for that last bed, I'd go for the someone else.
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As a matter of fact, those without insurance get the same help in a hospital as us with insurance.
When you get a bill for $30 for aspirin, it's because that's how a hospital makes up it's money. Guess who pays for it?
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Talked to 3 people who had chosen not to get the vaccine. All 3 said they were concerned about potential long term impacts that could not be known until many years pass.
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Talked to 3 people who had chosen not to get the vaccine. All 3 said they were concerned about potential long term impacts that could not be known until many years pass.
What potential long term impacts?
What about the potential long term impacts of having COVID, which are even less understood and seem to be potentially much more scary?
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No one is denied in hospitals in the US. I'm good with this. Hypothetically if, all things equal with one hospital bed left, there was one unvaccinated American with covid and someone else who were fighting for that last bed, I'd go for the someone else.
I'm on board with this. I have zero sympathy for an unvaccinated person that gets covid, even less for a covid denier. Everyone does deserve care, but this situation that cram proposed, I'm totally in agreement.
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Talked to 3 people who had chosen not to get the vaccine. All 3 said they were concerned about potential long term impacts that could not be known until many years pass.
What potential long term impacts?
What about the potential long term impacts of having COVID, which are even less understood and seem to be potentially much more scary?
To whom? Anecdotally, I know multiple people that have tested positive for COVID, including my asthmatic daughter. So far, there don't seem to be long term effects (my daughter, and her roommate, who tested positive simultaneously, and quarantined together, didn't have any symptoms other than sniffles and the roommate lost her sense of taste and smell). I don't personally believe that there are no long term effects, but according to this article, it's apparent that among those that initially hadn't gotten the vaccine but were convinced to (https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?abVariantId=0&campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210719&instance_id=35675&nl=the-morning&productCode=NN®i_id=98172875&segment_id=63826&te=1&uri=nyt%3A%2F%2Fnewsletter%2F6d943893-84bd-5d63-9179-cc1b92f9937b&user_id=aca5307c339a4c289909cc886a4db4a9), it's that type of information that we're working against. (Having said that, even though I got the vaccine on day one - literally - the impacts of the vaccine itself were a significantly bigger factor than the long-term effects of the virus. I did worry that my age and weight would make it worse for me, but I didn't segregate out the "long term impacts" as a major factor.)
The point here is simply to point out that it's a PERSONAL DETERMINATION OF RISK. Your personal determination, or that of the "experts" and "mainstream media" aren't as resonant as that of that person themselves and the people around THEM. This is basic human nature; anyone who's been married and has read "Love Languages" knows this implicitly. Anyone who wondered "how can [this person] find [that person] attractive" knows this implicitly. I'm not sure why this is that hard to follow.
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As a matter of fact, those without insurance get the same help in a hospital as us with insurance.
When you get a bill for $30 for aspirin, it's because that's how a hospital makes up it's money. Guess who pays for it?
You and me, babay!!!!
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Talked to 3 people who had chosen not to get the vaccine. All 3 said they were concerned about potential long term impacts that could not be known until many years pass.
What potential long term impacts?
What about the potential long term impacts of having COVID, which are even less understood and seem to be potentially much more scary?
To whom? Anecdotally, I know multiple people that have tested positive for COVID, including my asthmatic daughter. So far, there don't seem to be long term effects (my daughter, and her roommate, who tested positive simultaneously, and quarantined together, didn't have any symptoms other than sniffles and the roommate lost her sense of taste and smell). I don't personally believe that there are no long term effects, but according to this article, it's apparent that among those that initially hadn't gotten the vaccine but were convinced to (https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?abVariantId=0&campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210719&instance_id=35675&nl=the-morning&productCode=NN®i_id=98172875&segment_id=63826&te=1&uri=nyt%3A%2F%2Fnewsletter%2F6d943893-84bd-5d63-9179-cc1b92f9937b&user_id=aca5307c339a4c289909cc886a4db4a9), it's that type of information that we're working against. (Having said that, even though I got the vaccine on day one - literally - the impacts of the vaccine itself were a significantly bigger factor than the long-term effects of the virus. I did worry that my age and weight would make it worse for me, but I didn't segregate out the "long term impacts" as a major factor.)
The point here is simply to point out that it's a PERSONAL DETERMINATION OF RISK. Your personal determination, or that of the "experts" and "mainstream media" aren't as resonant as that of that person themselves and the people around THEM. This is basic human nature; anyone who's been married and has read "Love Languages" knows this implicitly. Anyone who wondered "how can [this person] find [that person] attractive" knows this implicitly. I'm not sure why this is that hard to follow.
I don't know what this has to do with my original question.
"What potential long term impacts?
What about the potential long term impacts of having COVID, which are even less understood and seem to be potentially much more scary?"
The second question is not a matter of "personal determination" (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351).
What "long term impacts" are of vaccination are we talking about? How are we comparing to the known immediate short term and potential long term impacts of the actual virus?
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Keywords in that article are "Some", "Many", "Most", and "Can".
This doesn't give numbers of how many people are actually likely to get long term Covid effects. And that could be high or low.
But based on this you "Could" be the lucky "Some" that does end up coming down with long term effects.
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Keywords in that article are "Some", "Many", "Most", and "Can".
This doesn't give numbers of how many people are actually likely to get long term Covid effects. And that could be high or low.
But based on this you "Could" be the lucky "Some" that does end up coming down with long term effects.
You want to take a stab at the two very direct questions I asked emtee or are we all just gonna keep nibbling away at the edges?
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Keywords in that article are "Some", "Many", "Most", and "Can".
This doesn't give numbers of how many people are actually likely to get long term Covid effects. And that could be high or low.
But based on this you "Could" be the lucky "Some" that does end up coming down with long term effects.
You want to take a stab at the two very direct questions I asked emtee or are we all just gonna keep nibbling away at the edges?
After vaccines are authorized and in use by the public, public health officials continue monitoring the data as an additional safety measure. Manufacturers must have a plan to report follow-up data, including any events such as hospitalizations and deaths, and they must continue research to generate more data on safety and efficacy.
https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects
The thing is we won't know until time passes.
What they are basing the outweighing on are models and the other vaccines and their side effects.
The fact is we won't know, that's why they also keep track of these side effects. And why the AstraZeneca and J&J vaccines were pulled on other countries. They had concerns about the possible side effects from these vaccines.
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Ben, have you seen medication commercials? They all have side affects. This is no surprise.
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Talked to 3 people who had chosen not to get the vaccine. All 3 said they were concerned about potential long term impacts that could not be known until many years pass.
What potential long term impacts?
What about the potential long term impacts of having COVID, which are even less understood and seem to be potentially much more scary?
To whom? Anecdotally, I know multiple people that have tested positive for COVID, including my asthmatic daughter. So far, there don't seem to be long term effects (my daughter, and her roommate, who tested positive simultaneously, and quarantined together, didn't have any symptoms other than sniffles and the roommate lost her sense of taste and smell). I don't personally believe that there are no long term effects, but according to this article, it's apparent that among those that initially hadn't gotten the vaccine but were convinced to (https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?abVariantId=0&campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210719&instance_id=35675&nl=the-morning&productCode=NN®i_id=98172875&segment_id=63826&te=1&uri=nyt%3A%2F%2Fnewsletter%2F6d943893-84bd-5d63-9179-cc1b92f9937b&user_id=aca5307c339a4c289909cc886a4db4a9), it's that type of information that we're working against. (Having said that, even though I got the vaccine on day one - literally - the impacts of the vaccine itself were a significantly bigger factor than the long-term effects of the virus. I did worry that my age and weight would make it worse for me, but I didn't segregate out the "long term impacts" as a major factor.)
The point here is simply to point out that it's a PERSONAL DETERMINATION OF RISK. Your personal determination, or that of the "experts" and "mainstream media" aren't as resonant as that of that person themselves and the people around THEM. This is basic human nature; anyone who's been married and has read "Love Languages" knows this implicitly. Anyone who wondered "how can [this person] find [that person] attractive" knows this implicitly. I'm not sure why this is that hard to follow.
I don't know what this has to do with my original question.
"What potential long term impacts?
What about the potential long term impacts of having COVID, which are even less understood and seem to be potentially much more scary?"
The second question is not a matter of "personal determination" (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351).
What "long term impacts" are of vaccination are we talking about? How are we comparing to the known immediate short term and potential long term impacts of the actual virus?
I think I answered you directly. You seemed to unilaterally determine that the long-term effects of COVID are "scary", or at least scarier than the impacts from the vaccine. And you should know the answer to your last question if you've even read 10% of my posts: I don't know how we're comparing because that's up to each individual person. That's up to THEM to do the comparison and see where they come out.
FOR ME, personally, I believe the science tells us there is a moderate chance that some people might have lingering effects of the virus after the fact. FOR ME, personally, I believe the science is telling us there is a very low chance that people will have long term lingering effects from the vaccination itself (generally speaking that's not how vaccines work; we generally know the impacts from a vaccine within two to six months of wide-spread administration). FOR ME, personally, neither of these were the primary concern when deciding to get or not get the vaccine.
If you read the article I posted, you'd know that of the people that initially resisted the vaccine but then changed their mind about getting it, it was the information regarding the SAFETY of the vaccine that helped convince them, not the hammering on the threats of the virus.
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Ben, have you seen medication commercials? They all have side affects. This is no surprise.
As an aside, life-threatening infection of the perineum is the one that not only amazes me - that there is such a thing - and scares me - how do you treat that? How do you tell people that's what you have?
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Ben, have you seen medication commercials? They all have side affects. This is no surprise.
As an aside, life-threatening infection of the perineum is the one that not only amazes me - that there is such a thing - and scares me - how do you treat that? How do you tell people that's what you have?
This is a post from me last week on Facebook
"If your allergic to Dupixent, stop taking Dupixent.
Under redundant, see redundant"
If there is so many side affects, why would we use it? We were better off not knowing. lol
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Stadler and others are overthinking my question.
I was curious exactly what "long term side effects" of the vaccine people are worried about?
I've heard the same stories as others with regards to J&J and I guess people have to weigh that risk against other risks, the risk of the virus chiefly among those.
But what are the other "long term side effects"? Anything concrete? Or just the vague sense of "I don't know if this vaccine will still be capable of producing some side effect to my health 1-2, 5, or even 10 years down the road". And if there's any basis to this, or is it just general fear of the new and unknown?
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But what are the other "long term side effects"? Anything concrete? Or just the vague sense of "I don't know if this vaccine will still be capable of producing some side effect to my health 1-2, 5, or even 10 years down the road". And if there's any basis to this, or is it just general fear of the new and unknown?
It's this. And it could be because of some misinformation they may have heard, or it simply could be a legit fear.
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Stadler and others are overthinking my question.
I was curious exactly what "long term side effects" of the vaccine people are worried about?
I've heard the same stories as others with regards to J&J and I guess people have to weigh that risk against other risks, the risk of the virus chiefly among those.
But what are the other "long term side effects"? Anything concrete? Or just the vague sense of "I don't know if this vaccine will still be capable of producing some side effect to my health 1-2, 5, or even 10 years down the road". And if there's any basis to this, or is it just general fear of the new and unknown?
From the people I know who have used that reasoning to not get vaccinated, it seems to be the broad "we just don't know because this is new" And while there is the truth of the mRNA being new, I just don't understand how this excuse plays out in the real world. Everything we do can have an unknown consequence and it could be over time as well. I just don't know if a truck is going to kill me on my commute to work in the morning, but I still do it. I've got no idea if that sushi I am eating is going to be bad and make me very sick, but I trust the restaurant to use good fish. I know these are not direct comparisons to a vaccine, but I think the point of "not knowing until there is more data" many times is just an excuse and not sound logic. I say that because there's a lot of data out there that the vaccines are safe. Taking into account the trials, and people have been getting shots for a year now. In the US it's been mass vaccinations for 7 months. Generally, if we see issues, we will know it by now. And there have been some such as the Astrazeneca and J&J have shown. But even then, the numbers are soooo low. Even if we say every death in VAERS after vaccination is a legit death caused by vaccination, it's still something like 0.00017% chance (I'm going off memory so this may be off, but my point is, it's a negligent number). We aren't in January anymore to say "I need more time and data" because it already exists.
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I think I've mentioned this, but our company had a highly 'decorated' infectious disease specialist do a company debrief. One of the things she mentioned was that, for almost all vaccines, serious side effects reveal themselves within 1-2 months of dosage.
History tells us that severe side effects are extremely rare, and if they if do occur, they usually happen within the first two months.
Source (https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects)
This is why clinical trials go on for months. I believe this is part of the reason why the FDA only has issued EMERGENCY authorization, and full authorization could only be applied for after 6 months.
... we don’t know the long-term effects of the vaccines: That’s always the case with new vaccines. But vaccine side effects usually show up within the first couple of months after vaccination, which is why the FDA insisted on two months of safety data before authorizing them. Adverse event reports since then have not detected patterns of death that would indicate a problem with the vaccines, the CDC says.
Source (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-22/are-mrna-covid-vaccines-risky-what-the-experts-say-quicktake)
I sure don't remember this level of furor for the HPV vaccine (not sure if that was a big deal anywhere else, but there was a big inoculation push here in the 2000s)
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Stadler and others are overthinking my question.
I was curious exactly what "long term side effects" of the vaccine people are worried about?
I've heard the same stories as others with regards to J&J and I guess people have to weigh that risk against other risks, the risk of the virus chiefly among those.
But what are the other "long term side effects"? Anything concrete? Or just the vague sense of "I don't know if this vaccine will still be capable of producing some side effect to my health 1-2, 5, or even 10 years down the road". And if there's any basis to this, or is it just general fear of the new and unknown?
From the people I know who have used that reasoning to not get vaccinated, it seems to be the broad "we just don't know because this is new" And while there is the truth of the mRNA being new, I just don't understand how this excuse plays out in the real world. Everything we do can have an unknown consequence and it could be over time as well. I just don't know if a truck is going to kill me on my commute to work in the morning, but I still do it. I've got no idea if that sushi I am eating is going to be bad and make me very sick, but I trust the restaurant to use good fish. I know these are not direct comparisons to a vaccine, but I think the point of "not knowing until there is more data" many times is just an excuse and not sound logic. I say that because there's a lot of data out there that the vaccines are safe. Taking into account the trials, and people have been getting shots for a year now. In the US it's been mass vaccinations for 7 months. Generally, if we see issues, we will know it by now. And there have been some such as the Astrazeneca and J&J have shown. But even then, the numbers are soooo low. Even if we say every death in VAERS after vaccination is a legit death caused by vaccination, it's still something like 0.00017% chance (I'm going off memory so this may be off, but my point is, it's a negligent number). We aren't in January anymore to say "I need more time and data" because it already exists.
The thing is the mRNA technology is NOT new. It's been around for 10 or 15 years and it's come a long way which will help with other diseases. When they sequenced the vaccine in Jan of 2020 they were not only able to come up with a test for COVID but also a vaccine. It was the clinical trials and gathering of data that took time. In fact, I think they had a vaccine within a matter of weeks.
If people are still thinking that mRNA is so new then something is getting lost in the messaging.
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I understand that, but people have not been getting mRNA vaccines like this before. The tech is not new, but people actually getting the shots is new. Having said that, things like the J&J kind of rule out that excuse.
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Stadler and others are overthinking my question.
I was curious exactly what "long term side effects" of the vaccine people are worried about?
I've heard the same stories as others with regards to J&J and I guess people have to weigh that risk against other risks, the risk of the virus chiefly among those.
But what are the other "long term side effects"? Anything concrete? Or just the vague sense of "I don't know if this vaccine will still be capable of producing some side effect to my health 1-2, 5, or even 10 years down the road". And if there's any basis to this, or is it just general fear of the new and unknown?
How do you answer that? That's up to the person. My dad has chronic rheumatoid arthritis, to the point that he's got as many artificial joints as real ones. His immune system is the Courtney Love of immune systems. For some time there was speculation that it may have come from a vaccine; that was shot down (for a while we thought it was an advanced, unique off-shoot of Lyme disease, but that too didn't pan out). I haven't asked him, but I can imagine some of my family members being leery of that. I mean, look: there's concern that the VIRUS, upon entering your body, may cause long-term, unknown effects. It's not a great leap to think that triggering an artificial reaction by an immune system might have similar long-term effects. Remember, we know here that it's not quite how mRNA works, but there are still a LOT of people that think "vaccines are sticking a portion of the virus in and triggering the immune system". mRNA is not new technology, but I understand this is the first MAJOR vaccine of it's type to get through human trials and be put into general use.
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I understand that, but people have not been getting mRNA vaccines like this before. The tech is not new, but people actually getting the shots is new. Having said that, things like the J&J kind of rule out that excuse.
The sad part if the timing of COVID is that it was 2021 that this mRNA technology would be pushed for a whole myriad of diseases but COVID took precedent.
Look at 2022 when mRNA vaccines will rule the headlines. Until the disinformation campaigns kick in. >:(
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I understand that, but people have not been getting mRNA vaccines like this before. The tech is not new, but people actually getting the shots is new. Having said that, things like the J&J kind of rule out that excuse.
The sad part if the timing of COVID is that it was 2021 that this mRNA technology would be pushed for a whole myriad of diseases but COVID took precedent.
Look at 2022 when mRNA vaccines will rule the headlines. Until the disinformation campaigns kick in. >:(
mRNA may potentially be the biggest medical breakthrough in our lives
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Hare, meet tortoise.
Over 50% of all Canadians are now fully vaccinated against COVID-19
Over 57 per cent of the population that’s eligible for the vaccine — Canadians aged 12 and up — are fully vaccinated.
The number of people who have received at least one dose, meanwhile, is slowly approaching 70 per cent of the total population, or almost 80 per cent of the eligible population. Second dose inoculations continue to climb at a steady pace in Canada, nearly tripling over the past 30 days.
On Saturday, the share of the Canadian population fully vaccinated against COVID-19 surpassed the United States for the first time. In the U.S., just 48.6 per cent of all Americans have received both doses, only growing by 0.2 per cent since the weekend.
...the seven-day average of new infections stands at 395 per day — a 95-per cent drop from the height of the record-setting third wave in April. Hospitalizations also fell below 500 patients nationwide over the weekend for the first time since late September 2020. During the third wave, there were close to 5,000 patients in hospital.
Cautiously :happydance:
My hope is that we get to >70% *total* population vaccinated, and/or 80% of eligible population, by the end of Aug. Hopefully that gets the country close enough to the fabled 'herd immunity' so that when schools go back in, workers continue to return to the office, and Fall weather kicks in, the inevitable rise in cases will not be drastic or problematic.
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I'm sure you guys will hit your wall of conservative idiots soon.
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An estimated 94% of the Dutch population is willing to be vaccinated at this point in time, which makes me hopeful for my country in general. The vast majority is inclined to at least take medical professionals seriously.
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I'm sure you guys will hit your wall of conservative idiots (hosers) soon.
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I'm sure you guys will hit your wall of conservative idiots (hosers) soon.
True, but that wall is closer to the 80% mark ... not 50%. :laugh: :P :-\ :'(
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I'm sure you guys will hit your wall of conservative idiots soon.
My town's school board held a meeting last night and a few parents got up to speak about whether the board would require masks in schools or make them optional. One dad is a raging conservative, but came prepared with citations of studies and some info about other local school boards' decisions. I disagree with a lot of the stuff this dad rages against, but he's not ill-informed.
The next mom got up, held up a map of Illinois and showed how it is a blue state, surrounded by red states with no school mask requirements and claimed that our state is "using her children politically" by forcing them to wear a mask and she would move to Wisconsin if masks are required by the schools - all because we live in a blue state. Then she quoted Fauci from early 2020 when he stated that cloth masks don't work. GTFO.
Seriously, we're now rehashing crap that is a year and a half old, as if a medical professional isn't allowed to change their mind after new data is available to them? That kind of stuff drives me crazy.
:facepalm:
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I'm sure you guys will hit your wall of conservative idiots (hosers) soon.
True, but that wall is closer to the 80% mark ... not 50%. :laugh: :P :-\ :'(
I've got to say though I don't see the anti vaccine people bragging about it of late on Facebook. They've seem to go into hiding of late.
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I'm sure you guys will hit your wall of conservative idiots (hosers) soon.
True, but that wall is closer to the 80% mark ... not 50%. :laugh: :P :-\ :'(
*insert laugh into cry gif*
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I'm sure you guys will hit your wall of conservative idiots (hosers) soon.
True, but that wall is closer to the 80% mark ... not 50%. :laugh: :P :-\ :'(
I've got to say though I don't see the anti vaccine people bragging about it of late on Facebook. They've seem to go into hiding of late.
It's all over twitter and tiktok. My mom said she is concerned because her tiktok feed has a lot of anti-vax propaganda. I had to tell her it's BS and that I'm glad she got vaccinated.
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I'm sure you guys will hit your wall of conservative idiots (hosers) soon.
True, but that wall is closer to the 80% mark ... not 50%. :laugh: :P :-\ :'(
I've got to say though I don't see the anti vaccine people bragging about it of late on Facebook. They've seem to go into hiding of late.
It's all over twitter and tiktok. My mom said she is concerned because her tiktok feed has a lot of anti-vax propaganda. I had to tell her it's BS and that I'm glad she got vaccinated.
I'm talking about those who brag not taking the vaccine. I honestly haven't seen the regular "Don't tread on me" friends bragging of late.
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I'm sure you guys will hit your wall of conservative idiots (hosers) soon.
True, but that wall is closer to the 80% mark ... not 50%. :laugh: :P :-\ :'(
I've got to say though I don't see the anti vaccine people bragging about it of late on Facebook. They've seem to go into hiding of late.
It's all over twitter and tiktok. My mom said she is concerned because her tiktok feed has a lot of anti-vax propaganda. I had to tell her it's BS and that I'm glad she got vaccinated.
I'm talking about those who brag not taking the vaccine. I honestly haven't seen the regular "Don't tread on me" friends bragging of late.
Maybe because they are like my sister who is still sick from covid after being all against the vaccine.
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I tend to think when one is quiet, they realize they were wrong.
For me, when I'm in a funk, I tend not to post. So it makes me wonder what's going on with my friends who are real hardcore left wing when it comes to the vaccine they defiantly rallied against.
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I'm sure you guys will hit your wall of conservative idiots soon.
Frustrating. Let's just focus on the one metric that fits the world view. Republicans! Goddamn Republicans! (Let's ignore that only 49% of the unvaccinated identify as Republican, 29% identify as Democrat, and of the vaccinated, 31% of Republicans ARE vaccinated). If you look at the differentials, age and insured are far bigger differentials than "political party" and education and race are close behind. (https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-profile-of-the-unvaccinated/)
This is NOT a one-variable equation.
I don't mean to knock you, personally, Lonestar, because I tend to think you might be joking, and of course, you're not the only one saying this and perpetuating this. We've got a problem, and it's not JUST those damn Republicans [Plus, insert all those other things I've posted regarding getting the recalcitrant to change their minds].
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So it's football season (thank goodness) .
The Cowboys report to training camp and have only a 70% team vaccination rate. The NFL cannot mandate vaccinations but teams can enforce other rules like - the Cowboys unvaccinated cannot travel on the same plane as vaccinated players. They have to get tested everyday as opposed to once a week for vaccinated players. They have to wear masks everywhere on campus and socially distance in meetings. And I can see a scenario where teams cut players or not sign them because they may have limited availability (like a team not signing a player because of injury history). You have to wonder if this season will become a blueprint for larger societal changes.
For instance, they brought us back to the office but all of us are lumped together not knowing who got vaccinated or not. If you get COVID and your job is cannot be done remotely then you have to take sick leave. If you have been vaccinated and you get COVID and your job cannot be done remotely then you have to take sick leave. Seems a little unfair.
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Why are people commenting on political affiliations in this thread?
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Rising cases in all 50 states. Wooohooo
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Can we please stop derailing the thread with these off-topic discussions and get back to discussing onions?
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I'm sure you guys will hit your wall of conservative idiots soon.
Frustrating. Let's just focus on the one metric that fits the world view. Republicans! Goddamn Republicans! (Let's ignore that only 49% of the unvaccinated identify as Republican, 29% identify as Democrat, and of the vaccinated, 31% of Republicans ARE vaccinated). If you look at the differentials, age and insured are far bigger differentials than "political party" and education and race are close behind.
This is NOT a one-variable equation.
I don't mean to knock you, personally, Lonestar, because I tend to think you might be joking, and of course, you're not the only one saying this and perpetuating this. We've got a problem, and it's not JUST those damn Republicans [Plus, insert all those other things I've posted regarding getting the recalcitrant to change their minds].
I knew I'd hear from you on that one.
I'm coming mostly from personal experience, in that every smidgen of antivax rhetoric I've seen has been coming from an idiotic, conservative direction.
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Can we please stop derailing the thread with these off-topic discussions and get back to discussing onions?
I garnished my enchiladas and frijoles today with green onions, just to spite Tim.
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I've seen enough of your Facebook posts to understand that you truly hate conservatives. (and have often thought that I must have done something to REALLY ingratiate myself to you to have somehow not been unfriended by now)
EDIT: And green onions are great on SO many things.
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I've seen enough of your Facebook posts to understand that you truly hate conservatives. (and have often thought that I must have done something to REALLY ingratiate myself to you to have somehow not been unfriended by now)
EDIT: And green onions are great on SO many things.
I don't though, and I have plenty of conservative FB friends. I enjoy intelligent discourse, something I learned to enjoy here . I do despise what Trump did to conservatives, and any that follow his lead and blindly attack my friends on my post get deleted quickly.
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I've seen enough of your Facebook posts to understand that you truly hate conservatives. (and have often thought that I must have done something to REALLY ingratiate myself to you to have somehow not been unfriended by now)
EDIT: And green onions are great on SO many things.
I don't though, and I have plenty of conservative FB friends. I enjoy intelligent discourse, something I learned to enjoy here . I do despise what Trump did to conservatives, and any that follow his lead and blindly attack my friends on my post get deleted quickly.
I'm not sure I would use EXACTLY the same language, but if it matters to you, I despise Trump and his legacy as well (there's no snark or sarcasm or innuendo in that statement).
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I'm sure you guys will hit your wall of conservative idiots soon.
Frustrating. Let's just focus on the one metric that fits the world view. Republicans! Goddamn Republicans! (Let's ignore that only 49% of the unvaccinated identify as Republican, 29% identify as Democrat, and of the vaccinated, 31% of Republicans ARE vaccinated). If you look at the differentials, age and insured are far bigger differentials than "political party" and education and race are close behind.
This is NOT a one-variable equation.
I don't mean to knock you, personally, Lonestar, because I tend to think you might be joking, and of course, you're not the only one saying this and perpetuating this. We've got a problem, and it's not JUST those damn Republicans [Plus, insert all those other things I've posted regarding getting the recalcitrant to change their minds].
I knew I'd hear from you on that one.
I'm coming mostly from personal experience, in that every smidgen of antivax rhetoric I've seen has been coming from an idiotic, conservative direction.
And I respect that; I just have a different personal experience. I know some, but very few, of those stereo-typical "Republicans", but I know a lot that don't fit the mold, and I know people that are anti-vaxx with no political undertone to it. Maybe it's the north east (again, being dead serious).
Just on my street I have Trump flags literally right next door to the "In This House, We Believe: [insert liberal agenda]" signs.
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I've seen enough of your Facebook posts to understand that you truly hate conservatives. (and have often thought that I must have done something to REALLY ingratiate myself to you to have somehow not been unfriended by now)
EDIT: And green onions are great on SO many things.
I like them in my mashed pertaters.
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I've seen enough of your Facebook posts to understand that you truly hate conservatives. (and have often thought that I must have done something to REALLY ingratiate myself to you to have somehow not been unfriended by now)
EDIT: And green onions are great on SO many things.
I've never seen you flaunt green onions as absolutes on Facebook. An onion extremist.
No posters on Facebook saying, "Green Onions: 2024. Make Onions Great Again."
Now that's where you'd cross the "RJ" line.
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I've seen enough of your Facebook posts to understand that you truly hate conservatives. (and have often thought that I must have done something to REALLY ingratiate myself to you to have somehow not been unfriended by now)
EDIT: And green onions are great on SO many things.
I like them in my mashed pertaters.
Potato skins with green onions ftw
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I can literally feel Tim cringing.
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:rollin
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I garnished my enchiladas and frijoles today with green onions, just to spite Tim.
EDIT: And green onions are great on SO many things.
I have never heard Scallions being referred to as green onions until today, but it makes sense I guess :lol
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I can literally feel Tim cringing.
Imagine onion in a carriage returned to tie corral? :mindblown:
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(https://media1.tenor.com/images/df449f13958098535186ef6184986365/tenor.gif?itemid=14694719)
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:lol
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Best thing about green onions is that they hit that sweet spot of (1) adds great flavor to almost anything, and (2) incredibly easy to grow. On point #2, you can be the worst ever at gardening, stick some of these in the ground, and still end up with a never-ending abundance. Once you start, you never have to shop for them again. Anytime you need some, you've got fresh ones to harvest at any given moment.
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Best thing about green onions is that they hit that sweet spot of (1) adds great flavor to almost anything, and (2) incredibly easy to grow. On point #2, you can be the worst ever at gardening, stick some of these in the ground, and still end up with a never-ending abundance. Once you start, you never have to shop for them again. Anytime you need some, you've got fresh ones to harvest at any given moment.
Also, Tim will never eat them so more for you.
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True. So I guess green onions are a true triple threat. And I'm starting to think that Tim patterned his life after Mikey. "He hates everything!"
But anyway, nice to have a bit of lightheartedness in the thread. The fingerpointing, mocking, accusations, etc. are getting old. Ultimately, no matter what your position, doing that doesn't help anything. And the back and forth arguments about whether one position or the other is defensible are tiring and don't get us anywhere. Speaking as a thread reader/participant (not wearing my mod hat, although it would be true in that context as well), I much more prefer posts more in line with Cram's optimism, or Harmony's thoughtful analysis, for example.
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Wait.
Tim doesn't like green onions?
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Can't use distortion on onions.
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Tim doesn't like green onions?
I think it's easier to question what Tim does like
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SMH
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(https://i.imgflip.com/5h3lgi.jpg)
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I'm sure you guys will hit your wall of conservative idiots soon.
If you look at the differentials, age and insured are far bigger differentials than "political party" and education and race are close behind. (https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-profile-of-the-unvaccinated/)
This is NOT a one-variable equation.
Regarding the link you cited, I don't think it's telling the story you think it does (I'm having trouble wrestling with the data myself). I don't think statements can be made that about these variables, because (as an example) it's not measuring that total population of the age group (or insured status, or ethnicity ...), it's measuring the total population of vacc'd and unvacc'd. You'd have to flip the variables around and measure all 18-29 year olds and get the vacc/unvacc split to make the claims you're making. Or maybe I'm mis-reading what you're trying to say.
Regardless, simply aggregating the highest rates in this article (bolding the similarities)
Unvaccinated people are most likely to be 30-49 yrs old, white, 'Red', uneducated, low income, insured, suburban.
Vaccinated people are most likely to be <statistically indistinguishable age category>, white, 'Blue', educated, low income, insured, suburban.
If all of these variables are at play, then why is Canada at the vaccination rates that we are (70% of total population with one shot; 80% of ELIGIBLE population with one shot), but the US isn't? Insurance is a variable we don't have to account for, but we have different incomes, ages, ethnicities, educations ... how are we so far ahead of the US in our vaccination distribution (measured by at least 1 shot)?
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I think you can lower that unvaccinated white demo into the 20's.
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I'm not sure insurance matters as a statistic when anyone can get the vaccine (maybe it matters for some sort of statistic that I'm not really seeing). There's basically no questions asked. I didn't even need to show ID. And no one is paying money directly for it.
And while I may not want to say "its the republicans" who aren't vaccinated because that's way too general. There are stats that show Republicans are less vaccinated than Democrats and Independents even if there's a % in all categories not vaccinated.
Anyway, https://www.yahoo.com/news/sean-hannity-other-fox-hosts-072301604.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/sean-hannity-other-fox-hosts-072301604.html) it's nice to finally see some conservatives with a voice and following come around. If only Tucker would as well, or ya know, maybe Trump actually start making public statements about people getting the vaccine like he did and that his experience with covid was very bad and we luckily now have a way to prevent what happened to him.
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I work in the Hyde Park section of Boston, a predominantly black neighborhood, and it feels like 90% of them are still wearing masks.
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I'm sure you guys will hit your wall of conservative idiots soon.
If you look at the differentials, age and insured are far bigger differentials than "political party" and education and race are close behind. (https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-profile-of-the-unvaccinated/)
This is NOT a one-variable equation.
Regarding the link you cited, I don't think it's telling the story you think it does (I'm having trouble wrestling with the data myself). I don't think statements can be made that about these variables, because (as an example) it's not measuring that total population of the age group (or insured status, or ethnicity ...), it's measuring the total population of vacc'd and unvacc'd. You'd have to flip the variables around and measure all 18-29 year olds and get the vacc/unvacc split to make the claims you're making. Or maybe I'm mis-reading what you're trying to say.
Regardless, simply aggregating the highest rates in this article (bolding the similarities)
Unvaccinated people are most likely to be 30-49 yrs old, white, 'Red', uneducated, low income, insured, suburban.
Vaccinated people are most likely to be <statistically indistinguishable age category>, white, 'Blue', educated, low income, insured, suburban.
If all of these variables are at play, then why is Canada at the vaccination rates that we are (70% of total population with one shot; 80% of ELIGIBLE population with one shot), but the US isn't? Insurance is a variable we don't have to account for, but we have different incomes, ages, ethnicities, educations ... how are we so far ahead of the US in our vaccination distribution (measured by at least 1 shot)?
You kind of answered the question with this...
Insurance is a variable we don't have to account for, but we have different incomes, ages, ethnicities, educations
These all affect how a society reacts to situations that concern the masses. All these different variables differ in weight of risk in every country.
But, a country's doctrine determines the enforcement of said mandates and regulations. The people in some countries do not have the freedom of choice, nor do they have guaranteed rights. America does have these in it's doctrine. America also relies on Insurance for health services, so Americans do have a variable to consider for the costs of the service for being treated at a health facility.
These do have an effect on people's decision making and risk assessment, and it's based on the doctrine of a society.
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I work in the Hyde Park section of Boston, a predominantly black neighborhood, and it feels like 90% of them are still wearing masks.
Yup, regardless if the data says it's ok to not wear a mask. They will still continue to wear a mask. One of the reasons I have been told is, I'm just taking extra precautions and would rather be safe than sorry. I've seen people still go all out with sanitizer and sprays before going into the store.
There's a lot of the Native population that is like this.
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Anyway, https://www.yahoo.com/news/sean-hannity-other-fox-hosts-072301604.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/sean-hannity-other-fox-hosts-072301604.html) it's nice to finally see some conservatives with a voice and following come around. If only Tucker would as well, or ya know, maybe Trump actually start making public statements about people getting the vaccine like he did and that his experience with covid was very bad and we luckily now have a way to prevent what happened to him.
I'm glad that they're finally saying something, but it's too little, too late I think. The anti-vax sentiment on that side of the aisle is so rooted in by now - the local people I see online have a very strong position against it. I'm irritated watching my local numbers start to climb after being at ZERO for a while in June. Just as my kids are headed back into school in a month and another surge is coming. This is never going to end.
Your point about Trump is big - he'd never admit it though. He had to look strong and tough and act like covid was no big deal, yet it came out that he was on oxygen at one point and certainly was bad enough to warrant being taken to a hospital. You could see how short of breath he was when he got out and he was on the White House steps for that photo-op. Just getting some sort of truth out of him would help push people to get vaccinated. It makes me so mad that he was vaccinated in private.
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Anyway, https://www.yahoo.com/news/sean-hannity-other-fox-hosts-072301604.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/sean-hannity-other-fox-hosts-072301604.html) it's nice to finally see some conservatives with a voice and following come around. If only Tucker would as well, or ya know, maybe Trump actually start making public statements about people getting the vaccine like he did and that his experience with covid was very bad and we luckily now have a way to prevent what happened to him.
I'm glad that they're finally saying something, but it's too little, too late I think. The anti-vax sentiment on that side of the aisle is so rooted in by now - the local people I see online have a very strong position against it. I'm irritated watching my local numbers start to climb after being at ZERO for a while in June. Just as my kids are headed back into school in a month and another surge is coming. This is never going to end.
Your point about Trump is big - he'd never admit it though. He had to look strong and tough and act like covid was no big deal, yet it came out that he was on oxygen at one point and certainly was bad enough to warrant being taken to a hospital. You could see how short of breath he was when he got out and he was on the White House steps for that photo-op. Just getting some sort of truth out of him would help push people to get vaccinated. It makes me so mad that he was vaccinated in private.
I read an article from the new book coming out about him that he was really bad, like maybe deathly ill because he's old, overweight, and generally not healthy so his prospects were really bad but he got the best treatment possible (and I'm not against that, he was the POTUS at the time) so that kind of makes me more mad if he went through the worst of it and still isn't advocating for vaccination (even though he STILL got one, when apparently you don't need a vaccine after infection). ???
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It's never too late to change your mind. Maybe it's a start to get others vaccinated.
Much better than the alternative.
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It's never too late to change your mind. Maybe it's a start to get others vaccinated.
Much better than the alternative.
He (Trump) got it early without making it newsworthy, so this is not new. But generally agree, it's better to change your mind late than never for something that is important a la Hannity. But Trump still hasn't really promoted getting a vaccine.
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Who cares about that asshole. The Republican party needs to save face. Change what they think about the virus. This is a step in the right direction.
Trump is in the past. The Republican party needs to save their image.
They are not dummies.
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Responded in PR, I went too far into politics by bringing up Fox News and Trump so I don't want to respond here.
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Lol. It's ok. I want to be positive and I believe you do too!
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I wish I could offer reasoned and uplifting thoughts but unfortunately, due to the fact that my colleagues and I have been dealing with this for 17 months (with a couple ebbs) I feel as if I'm at a personal tipping point. Florida is in the crapper again. We're treating way too many patients. What used to be empathy and compassion--when there was no vaccjne--is being replaced by unfavorable thoughts and emotions. There is no end in sight. I feel like I'm fighting a war with zero chance of winning.
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I'm not sure insurance matters as a statistic when anyone can get the vaccine (maybe it matters for some sort of statistic that I'm not really seeing). There's basically no questions asked. I didn't even need to show ID. And no one is paying money directly for it.
And while I may not want to say "its the republicans" who aren't vaccinated because that's way too general. There are stats that show Republicans are less vaccinated than Democrats and Independents even if there's a % in all categories not vaccinated.
Anyway, https://www.yahoo.com/news/sean-hannity-other-fox-hosts-072301604.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/sean-hannity-other-fox-hosts-072301604.html) it's nice to finally see some conservatives with a voice and following come around. If only Tucker would as well, or ya know, maybe Trump actually start making public statements about people getting the vaccine like he did and that his experience with covid was very bad and we luckily now have a way to prevent what happened to him.
I owe you $20 for this post, for (I'm assuming, inadvertently) teeing up what I've been trying to get across for weeks now: No, insurance ITSELF doesn't factor in, because you're right, the vaccine is to my knowledge freely distributed, but perhaps the same inputs that lead someone to be un- or underinsured also lead to not wanting to get the vaccine. Distrust of authority. Lack of access to actual reliable medical care (including the advise that would say "Get the vaccine!"). Lack of income to get to the vaccine distribution locations. Lack of awareness of the seriousness of one's medical history/condition. In other words, CORRELATION.
We had a series of articles - some snarky, some with agenda - that posited that "Republican" had something to do with whether one got vaccinated or not, and a lot of people with a foregone conclusion ran with it. But maybe it's the reasons one was led to vote Republican in the first place that led them to the conscious decision that it's not advisable to get the vaccine at this time. Who knows? It's just not that simple.
I think we SHOULD focus on the positive: that was in the NY Times article I posted yesterday or the day before. Promote the safety of the vaccine. Promote the ease of getting the vaccine. Promote the positive numbers from getting the vaccine. Be POSITIVE, instead of taking the opportunity to mock, belittle, and denigrate those you don't agree with.
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Best thing about green onions is that they hit that sweet spot of (1) adds great flavor to almost anything, and (2) incredibly easy to grow. On point #2, you can be the worst ever at gardening, stick some of these in the ground, and still end up with a never-ending abundance. Once you start, you never have to shop for them again. Anytime you need some, you've got fresh ones to harvest at any given moment.
On Alton Brown's Good Eats this season, he made a scallion flat bread, and part of the recipe was making a scallion oil. It looked and sounded so good.
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I wish I could offer reasoned and uplifting thoughts but unfortunately, due to the fact that my colleagues and I have been dealing with this for 17 months (with a couple ebbs) I feel as if I'm at a personal tipping point. Florida is in the crapper again. We're treating way too many patients. What used to be empathy and compassion--when there was no vaccjne--is being replaced by unfavorable thoughts and emotions. There is no end in sight. I feel like I'm fighting a war with zero chance of winning.
I can't imagine the frustration you and all those in the health fields must feel right now.
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I wish I could offer reasoned and uplifting thoughts but unfortunately, due to the fact that my colleagues and I have been dealing with this for 17 months (with a couple ebbs) I feel as if I'm at a personal tipping point. Florida is in the crapper again. We're treating way too many patients. What used to be empathy and compassion--when there was no vaccjne--is being replaced by unfavorable thoughts and emotions. There is no end in sight. I feel like I'm fighting a war with zero chance of winning.
I can't imagine the frustration you and all those in the health fields must feel right now.
Yeah, going from OMG to WTF.
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I wish I could offer reasoned and uplifting thoughts but unfortunately, due to the fact that my colleagues and I have been dealing with this for 17 months (with a couple ebbs) I feel as if I'm at a personal tipping point. Florida is in the crapper again. We're treating way too many patients. What used to be empathy and compassion--when there was no vaccjne--is being replaced by unfavorable thoughts and emotions. There is no end in sight. I feel like I'm fighting a war with zero chance of winning.
I understand completely those thoughts and emotions and I am not a front line worker. Hang in there!
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I wish I could offer reasoned and uplifting thoughts but unfortunately, due to the fact that my colleagues and I have been dealing with this for 17 months (with a couple ebbs) I feel as if I'm at a personal tipping point. Florida is in the crapper again. We're treating way too many patients. What used to be empathy and compassion--when there was no vaccjne--is being replaced by unfavorable thoughts and emotions. There is no end in sight. I feel like I'm fighting a war with zero chance of winning.
I am so sorry you are having to deal with this. I know what it's like. I mean, I don't work in healthcare, but my company is responsible for the HVAC systems in most of the major hospitals in Boston, so I am in there all the time, Children's Hospital, Boston City Hospital, Women & Children's, Tufts, etc. Even here in MA where 63% of our population has been fully vaccinated there is still a hard limit on how many will actually go and get the vaccine. Most believe we're rapidly closing in on that limit now. I'm sure you've got it worse where you are as 20% of the new cases in the United States are currently coming from Florida, but even here with 63% vaccinated our hospitals and especially our ICU units are beginning to fill up again only this time it's mostly people under 40-years-old who are coming in with Covid-19 symptoms.
What's truly sad about this is while I think there would have been some level of vaccine hesitancy regardless of the media, we are only now beginning to see some people in the media coming forward to say that the vaccines are safe and effective and people need to go and get the vaccine if they are eligible. There are still going to be some talking heads on TV who are literally going on every night and spreading bullshit about the vaccines. At what point does this become the equivalent of shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater? At what point does a person on television who is telling straight-up demonstrable falsehoods about both the virus and the vaccines encounter some consequences for those lies?
I'm not looking for an answer here, I'm asking rhetorical questions as a way of expressing my exasperation with some in the media who are callously using this emergency to generate ratings and advertising revenue and it's just....well....it's awful because it's making matters worse and no one seems to be doing anything to stop it. >:(
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I think this doctor sums up the way many physicians working in hospitals are feeling right now.
https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/im-sorry-but-its-too-late-alabama-doctor-on-treating-unvaccinated-dying-covid-patients.html
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Well that doesn't seem very optimistic!
“So it feels like impending doom, basically.”
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I think for healthcare workers in states with very low vaccination rates and the thought of kids back in classrooms without masks (at the very least) it does feel like impending doom.
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We hear that too often. "If I could go back in time I would get the vaccine."
btw, thanks for the encouragement.
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Speaking of political sides...Before Covid, the majority of anti-vaxxers were more on the left. It cracks me up that a hated Republican president gets us a great vaccine in record time - and now many on that side of the aisle turned into anti-vaxxers. And the left, suddenly loves vaccines, but won't even try to pull the Right into it by saying Hey! Trump did a great job getting us this vaccine and even took it himself! Everything has turned into a political boxing match and it's no wonder all the confusion. People don't trust anything anyone has to say about important medical things, because it all has been politicized. Add to this the Hate for the pharmaceutical industry..Why? They research and develop new and great meds that help us! Sure, not everyone can afford them, but this would be the truth anyway. It costs $$$ to do this. And we have the Covid vaccine. Bet that was pricey. People think not enough or too much.
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Best thing about green onions is that they hit that sweet spot of (1) adds great flavor to almost anything, and (2) incredibly easy to grow. On point #2, you can be the worst ever at gardening, stick some of these in the ground, and still end up with a never-ending abundance. Once you start, you never have to shop for them again. Anytime you need some, you've got fresh ones to harvest at any given moment.
On Alton Brown's Good Eats this season, he made a scallion flat bread, and part of the recipe was making a scallion oil. It looked and sounded so good.
I've followed that recipe and I can tell you first hand it is worth the time... the oil is great, but the crispy scallion's are beyond description! The scallion pancake is awesome too. I was seriously impressed with the crispy bits and the oil though. This season has been a good one...
Having met Alton a few times, I can say he's likely the nicest celeb that I've been in contact with... the next on my list would be JP & JM. Classy fellows all of them. I'd like to meet Babbish as the majority of his recipes have been awesome as well (of the ones I've tried)
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Best thing about green onions is that they hit that sweet spot of (1) adds great flavor to almost anything, and (2) incredibly easy to grow. On point #2, you can be the worst ever at gardening, stick some of these in the ground, and still end up with a never-ending abundance. Once you start, you never have to shop for them again. Anytime you need some, you've got fresh ones to harvest at any given moment.
On Alton Brown's Good Eats this season, he made a scallion flat bread, and part of the recipe was making a scallion oil. It looked and sounded so good.
I've followed that recipe and I can tell you first hand it is worth the time... the oil is great, but the crispy scallion's are beyond description! The scallion pancake is awesome too. I was seriously impressed with the crispy bits and the oil though. This season has been a good one...
Having met Alton a few times, I can say he's likely the nicest celeb that I've been in contact with... the next on my list would be JP & JM. Classy fellows all of them. I'd like to meet Babbish as the majority of his recipes have been awesome as well (of the ones I've tried)
I'd LOVE to meet Alton Brown; he seems to be an interesting guy and I like his point of view when it comes to food.
Fun Fact: he went to the University of Georgia for film and directed music videos before getting into food. He directed "The One I Love" for R.E.M.
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Fun Fact: he went to the University of Georgia for film and directed music videos before getting into food. He directed "The One I Love" for R.E.M.
That's interesting.
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I did not know that.
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I just read about Clapton refusing to play in venues that require proof of vaccination.
I'm sure he will find some venues to play in, but that may not happen in certain states like NY and CA.
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At this point I see that as proof of evolution
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Best thing about green onions is that they hit that sweet spot of (1) adds great flavor to almost anything, and (2) incredibly easy to grow. On point #2, you can be the worst ever at gardening, stick some of these in the ground, and still end up with a never-ending abundance. Once you start, you never have to shop for them again. Anytime you need some, you've got fresh ones to harvest at any given moment.
On Alton Brown's Good Eats this season, he made a scallion flat bread, and part of the recipe was making a scallion oil. It looked and sounded so good.
I've followed that recipe and I can tell you first hand it is worth the time... the oil is great, but the crispy scallion's are beyond description! The scallion pancake is awesome too. I was seriously impressed with the crispy bits and the oil though. This season has been a good one...
Having met Alton a few times, I can say he's likely the nicest celeb that I've been in contact with... the next on my list would be JP & JM. Classy fellows all of them. I'd like to meet Babbish as the majority of his recipes have been awesome as well (of the ones I've tried)
I'd LOVE to meet Alton Brown; he seems to be an interesting guy and I like his point of view when it comes to food.
Fun Fact: he went to the University of Georgia for film and directed music videos before getting into food. He directed "The One I Love" for R.E.M.
All the times I've met him, we've ended up talking about Led Zep the majority of the time :biggrin: Honestly, I've never spoken to him about food.
During the last book tour, he spent 3-hours in Asheville signing books and meeting his fans... seriously, that line was out the door of the venue, but he kept with it and never lost his energy!
Sorry to go off topic...
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Just read a story about a pastor in Missouri that was vaccine hesitant. He started noticing how bad things were with the un-vaccinated in his community and he and his wife decided to get it after all.
The result, several people left his congregation, he got a ton of Facebook hate messages. Apparently, the vaccine contains alien blood and is also the mark of the beast. Those were just some of the things that got thrown at him after he was a responsible adult.
What a country we are.
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The article that Harmony shared the other day was so sad - people are so resistant to this vaccine, thinking that their immune system is strong enough (it's just a flu!) and then they end up in the hospital begging for the vaccine as they are suffering, realizing their mistake.
There are just no more ways to get through to people right now. I'm glad that I got vaccinated when I did back in the spring.
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Just read a story about a pastor in Missouri that was vaccine hesitant. He started noticing how bad things were with the un-vaccinated in his community and he and his wife decided to get it after all.
The result, several people left his congregation, he got a ton of Facebook hate messages. Apparently, the vaccine contains alien blood and is also the mark of the beast. Those were just some of the things that got thrown at him after he was a responsible adult.
What a country we are.
It's impossible to reason with complete fucking idiocy.
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Just read a story about a pastor in Missouri that was vaccine hesitant. He started noticing how bad things were with the un-vaccinated in his community and he and his wife decided to get it after all.
The result, several people left his congregation, he got a ton of Facebook hate messages. Apparently, the vaccine contains alien blood and is also the mark of the beast. Those were just some of the things that got thrown at him after he was a responsible adult.
What a country we are.
It's impossible to reason with complete fucking idiocy.
They'll beat you down with years of experience and expertise!
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Just read a story about a pastor in Missouri that was vaccine hesitant. He started noticing how bad things were with the un-vaccinated in his community and he and his wife decided to get it after all.
The result, several people left his congregation, he got a ton of Facebook hate messages. Apparently, the vaccine contains alien blood and is also the mark of the beast. Those were just some of the things that got thrown at him after he was a responsible adult.
What a country we are.
This involves a lot more than that. It goes really deep.
It involves preaching to a congregation, and preaching your word that is considered the word of God. The congregation relies on the preachers words for their path of life to follow. The Bible utilizes the Flock of Sheep and the Shepard analogy.
It all depends on if he was preaching those claims to his congregation as well. If he was, then that is just plain stupid on his part. That's his consequence for manipulating. IF he was preaching those claims, then he has just been exposed and the only thing that happens is the congregation leaves. They either then search for a new beginning and understanding, form their own congregation/church, or bond together under the same premise and form their own church that way. What occurred is they lost trust in their Shepard.
Culture is very important to some people and to these people it is very important. Not to be harsh or mean...but, it's like some of you do not understand this, so the only way to react is in a confused state, and when that happens, people tend to mock/make fun of what they do not know. A way of mocking is to use words that have an insulting tone attached, like Idiocy.
It's like to me, there are a lot of people who do not understand this at all. How people can hold their stand in their beliefs to the point of going against what is considered righteous with what the majority of the modern society of the time dictates.
I don't think, it is necessarily Idiocy, or that they do not care. It has a lot to do with trust, beliefs, and a certain mindset that all those has created that gives a person his identity.
Also, geography could play a role, as there are people that live in rural areas that do not see people as often as most do, this could very well play into their mindset of viruses. The population densities of areas, like rural towns vs. major cities, I am sure plays a role in how viruses spread. As is evidenced, it only takes one person to travel from a heavily infected place to bring the virus to the small town. Which is why I truly believe that with how much we humans travel, that alone played a humungous role in the spread of this virus. In reality, all travel and borders would've had to shut down right at the detection of the virus, even at that, there was people that were already on the planes before it got detected. We should not forget about the mid-fall when there were many people getting a "Harsher Flu" diagnosis and suffering from symptoms that were very similar to Covid-19 symptoms.
The situation with us humans though is the same as an animal being caged. The longer it is caged, the more it will want to be let out and freed. Visit any zoo and tell me that the animal doesn't look like it wants to escape that zoo. There is only so long that a human will handle being locked up and prevented from doing what it wants to do. The mind can't handle it either, which leads to mental issues such as depression and suicidal thoughts, as one is left to ponder and think as the mind doesn't have the outside world to focus on.
That is an issue I see with regards to having to lockdown again, can the mind of us humans handle it?
edit:
I remember reading an article about what happened here during the Spanish Flu. That small town had people that would gather by the rail station with shotguns and if anyone was discovered or known to be infected they were not allowed to get off at their town and had to get off at the next town.
Here it is:
https://news-bulletin.com/the-spanish-flu-epidemic-of-1918-in-valencia-county/
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My fully vaccinated Mother has Covid. Symptoms are manageable…..I’m assuming because she’s vaccinated…..but the thing that ticks me off is where she got it.
Last weekend she got together with a couple of her friends to celebrate a birthday and one of them was symptomatic…..achy, headaches, etc etc……but still chose to go hang out with a group of people indoors.
An adult woman who is fully aware of what’s going on with this virus…..ignoring tell tale signs she has it and still going out and exposing who knows how many people to it. Just dumb.
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So infuriating man, hope she gets better soon. Thankfully she's vaxxed and will avoid the brundt of the disease.
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I spent some time with extended family who live halfway across the country from me. All of us are fully vaccinated including the 14 year old son of my cousin. This young man and his father went on a six mile hike and later that evening, he started feeling poorly - headache, nausea, warm forehead. No working thermometer to be found in the house so off to the drug store. Turns out he did not have a fever and after some hydration and some Tylenol he rebounded.
The boy's mother asked me if I thought she was over-reacting about getting the thermometer. This is with the grandparents (83 and 84 with diabetes) living in the house with them. I'm like, "I don't think checking for a temperature during a global pandemic is over-reacting at all."
That was 5 days ago and though he continues to feel well, I'm still on alert for break-through symptoms. Ugh, it feels like this is never going to end. I mean, I know I'm protected but I still don't want to get sick and potentially spread it around unknowingly to others.
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Don't be like Gmillers mom and go out when you're sick, if you do get sick. If you are sick or have any symptoms of being sick, stay home. If you are not sure, go to a doctor and stay home.
Sickness will never go away. We have things in the air, in the water, and in the Earth that cause us to get sick regardless... Look at the effect the wildfires of the west are having on the east coast. People are getting sick because of all that smoke. People in Flint are getting sick cause their water is almost toxic to drink.
Again, what is one doing to prevent form catching the sickness. In all actuality and the reality of the situation, it's all one can do.
And if so inclined might as well go off grid and isolate yourself from people all together. That's what some people chose to do.
If these vaccines do work, then those whom are vaccinated should be fine enough to not go to the hospitals. Unless, their health is already bad enough to begin with and the vaccine won't do much at all.
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My fully vaccinated Mother has Covid. Symptoms are manageable…..I’m assuming because she’s vaccinated…..but the thing that ticks me off is where she got it.
Last weekend she got together with a couple of her friends to celebrate a birthday and one of them was symptomatic…..achy, headaches, etc etc……but still chose to go hang out with a group of people indoors.
An adult woman who is fully aware of what’s going on with this virus…..ignoring tell tale signs she has it and still going out and exposing who knows how many people to it. Just dumb.
Was the other lady vaccinated?
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Don't be like Gmillers mom and go out when you're sick
It wasn't his mom that went out while sick, it was the other lady at the party.
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In Italy they're about to introduce a "Green Pass" to go around in restaurants, closed places and eventually trains, ships and planes, and - like in other parts of the world - people are going apeshit about it because it's a violation of privacy, of one's right, it's a dictatorship, blah blah blah.....
Really, what people were thinking? there's a pandemic, there's a vaccine, and people seriously expected that there was no difference between vaccinated people, and those without the vaccine?
Maybe to teach the world a lesson, there should have occoured something more drastic. Imagine a comic book-like mutation where it's sperm that floats in the air, not the virus droplets. Maybe, once some dudes started seeing their wives knocked up because their neighbour had sex without a condom, they would start to realize that when you live in a society your choices fall upon others and your "freedom" isn't limitless.
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Don't be like Gmillers mom and go out when you're sick
It wasn't his mom that went out while sick, it was the other lady at the party.
My bad. Sorry, Gmiller.
Yeah still, that lady should stay home. But also, how is one to know whether one is Asymptomatic or not? There was no way to know this about the flu.
In Italy they're about to introduce a "Green Pass" to go around in restaurants, closed places and eventually trains, ships and planes, and - like in other parts of the world - people are going apeshit about it because it's a violation of privacy, of one's right, it's a dictatorship, blah blah blah.....
Really, what people were thinking? there's a pandemic, there's a vaccine, and people seriously expected that there was no difference between vaccinated people, and those without the vaccine?
Maybe to teach the world a lesson, there should have occoured something more drastic. Imagine a comic book-like mutation where it's sperm that floats in the air, not the virus droplets. Maybe, once some dudes started seeing their wives knocked up because their neighbour had sex without a condom, they would start to realize that when you live in a society your choices fall upon others and your "freedom" isn't limitless.
According to my peoples stories, the Earth was destroyed 3 times, and we are living in the fourth world. The world was destroyed because the people were not abiding by creators laws and words, and instructions to live. So he destroyed the world's by ice, fire, and water, this is the fabled city of Atlantis or Lemuria.
The Roman Empire was destroyed by fire with Pompeii.
Are you saying that to teach us lessons about morals that this pandemic should have been worse?
As I have been saying. There's lots more than what you believe and think that plays into how other people think and feel and believe of life.
If it was easy, we wouldn't have the many problems we have concerning each others differences in the human species.
How was it we humans knew there was a pandemic. By the media, and the vast connections we humans are capable of now. This world connection was also how the virus spread as we humans now can travel around the world in a week.
Now how would we have known of this pandemic if we did not have media or this vast connection. We would know by people dying, and in some places people dying wasn't as severe as in other places. Big Cities and Rural areas are not the same and these Big Cities have more risks than a smaller town does.
Smaller towns have more community than a big city. In a big city, people tend to fend for themselves and focus on the individual more so than community. Smaller towns have huge community participation, people in these small towns knows mostly everyone, people in this small town know when a visitor comes, as they know they're not part of the community.
These are all parts of the whole that affects how a person thinks, feels, and believes.
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If it's "about" the flu you still should stay home. It's always been like that. Nothing new.
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I know we live in a perfect world where everyone acts perfectly correctly at all times and if they don't they're obviously stupid selfish idiots, but I'm not sure what we expect. If we get a sniffle, do we stay in and quarantine? My kid has Olympic-level allergies; every time she doesn't feel good, is the only acceptable path forward to stay home? My stepson has a four year old, and my other stepson is 13, meaning both are in school. We've jokingly referred to school as "germ soup" for years; every time there's anything not normal, is the only proper recourse to self-quarantine or test?
We know G-man's mom got the COVID, and for that I am deeply sorry and my heart goes out, but how many people have been in that exact scenario - around someone who was "achy, headaches, etc etc……" and it wasn't COVID?
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a "tend your own garden" guy, so if that IS the answer, I'm not going to squawk at that, and I'm not suggesting that I'm right or that Gary or anyone else is over-reacting, but I am asking a legit question: where are we going to draw the line? Is there even a line to be drawn? Increasingly it's seeming to me that "Zero infections, zero hospitalizations" are the only acceptable metrics and I believe that may be an unrealistic goal.
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Are you saying that to teach us lessons about morals that this pandemic should have been worse?
No, as if it wasn't clear enough by the absurdity of my example, I was making a sarcastic joke.
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Increasingly it's seeming to me that "Zero infections, zero hospitalizations" are the only acceptable metrics
just for the record, this is yet again a situation where absolutely no one is saying this.
There's obviously a huge difference between having the sniffles a few years ago and NOW in covid times. Although it would have been better if people stayed home more often before and I hope it becomes more accepted going forward, not just for covid but for more common things like cold or stomach flu etc. Again, no one is saying there should be zero infections but reducing is better for everyone, businesses included.
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Increasingly it's seeming to me that "Zero infections, zero hospitalizations" are the only acceptable metrics
just for the record, this is yet again a situation where absolutely no one is saying this.
There's obviously a huge difference between having the sniffles a few years ago and NOW in covid times. Although it would have been better if people stayed home more often before and I hope it becomes more accepted going forward, not just for covid but for more common things like cold or stomach flu etc. Again, no one is saying there should be zero infections but reducing is better for everyone, businesses included.
Please go back and tell me where I said anyone said this. "It seems as if" doesn't mean that someone SAID it, it means that it's difficult to see what the objective IS given some of the reactions. Your patent unwillingness to give even the slightest benefit of the doubt to me is the stuff of legend, but it's getting tiresome.
If it was so friggin' "obvious", we'd not be having this conversation. We've a couple examples here over the past couple weeks where people we know have gotten sick and not ONE of the responses has been "well, that sucks, and I wish your loved one well, but them's the breaks, people get sick!", which is, unfortunately, the world we live in. People DO get sick (and in some, non-COVID cases, that's actually a good thing). Instead, most of the reactions have been some variation on "that person that gave it to you was [insert insult du jour]". My point, not that you're even remotely interested in it, is "when do we get to the point that we acknowledge there will be some level of COVID infection that is part of our existence here on earth, like the flu, like the common cold, like any other illness we pick up in the course of our living our life." And my comment was simply to reflect that "it doesn't look like we're close to that yet."
Gary, I'm sorry as hell that your mom is at the heart of this discussion. I AM sorry she's ill, and I hope she recovers fully just as fast as possible.
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Increasingly it's seeming to me that "Zero infections, zero hospitalizations" are the only acceptable metrics
just for the record, this is yet again a situation where absolutely no one is saying this.
There's obviously a huge difference between having the sniffles a few years ago and NOW in covid times. Although it would have been better if people stayed home more often before and I hope it becomes more accepted going forward, not just for covid but for more common things like cold or stomach flu etc. Again, no one is saying there should be zero infections but reducing is better for everyone, businesses included.
Please go back and tell me where I said anyone said this. "It seems as if" doesn't mean that someone SAID it, it means that it's difficult to see what the objective IS given some of the reactions. Your patent unwillingness to give even the slightest benefit of the doubt to me is the stuff of legend, but it's getting tiresome.
"It seems as if ..." "Many people are saying ..." "why can't we ask the question...." All subtle slights of tongue which understandably can be mis-construed by some. I don't personally think that's what you're doing here, Bill, but can understand how/why another might.
"when do we get to the point that we acknowledge there will be some level of COVID infection that is part of our existence here on earth, like the flu, like the common cold, like any other illness we pick up in the course of our living our life." And my comment was simply to reflect that "it doesn't look like we're close to that yet."
No, we're not close to it yet. We're still in the MIDDLE of a global pandemic (and so long as the USA is part of the globe, you're in it too). Some people want to convince (fool?) themselves into thinking that their locale/region/nation is coming out of it, but that's not the case. For this specific example, how many people has/does Gary's mom now spread it to? Gary's three boys? I know they've already had it, but if they hadn't, maybe they catch it ... and then spread it to their friends, who spread it to their unvac'd parents. Or worse yet, the more people that catch it, the greater the likelihood of another variant/mutation. My belief is that society still has to be vigilant (maybe not HYPER vigilant like we had to be in the first 12 months of the pandemic) about the ease and rate at which COVID can spread.
I hope that within the next 12 months we get closer to the mindset that you mention, Bill, but think even that's aggressive. End of 2022 is probably more likely - so long as there aren't more (or continual) spikes and waves.
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"when do we get to the point that we acknowledge there will be some level of COVID infection that is part of our existence here on earth, like the flu, like the common cold, like any other illness we pick up in the course of our living our life." And my comment was simply to reflect that "it doesn't look like we're close to that yet."
No, we're not close to it yet. We're still in the MIDDLE of a global pandemic (and so long as the USA is part of the globe, you're in it too). Some people want to convince (fool?) themselves into thinking that their locale/region/nation is coming out of it, but that's not the case. For this specific example, how many people has/does Gary's mom now spread it to? Gary's three boys? I know they've already had it, but if they hadn't, maybe they catch it ... and then spread it to their friends, who spread it to their unvac'd parents. Or worse yet, the more people that catch it, the greater the likelihood of another variant/mutation. My belief is that society still has to be vigilant (maybe not HYPER vigilant like we had to be in the first 12 months of the pandemic) about the ease and rate at which COVID can spread.
I hope that within the next 12 months we get closer to the mindset that you mention, Bill, but think even that's aggressive. End of 2022 is probably more likely - so long as there aren't more (or continual) spikes and waves.
Fair points, and that's a legit answer to my question. I hope it's sooner rather than later, though, because I believe the "you're an IDIOT!" has already worn thin and made things worse, so we're on borrowed time.
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Dr. Google states approximately 80% of Covid infections are asymptomatic. I also read that we in the US are at the same level of infections that we were 365 days ago - which is probably incorrect as we aren't testing as much as we were a year ago.
I have a relative that does in-home therapy with special needs kids. She stopped telehealth visits July 1st and has been back in homes since then, wearing a mask and taking precautions. She is fully vaccinated but sometimes she works with an interpreter who is not vaccinated by choice.
Last Friday at 5 pm, this new policy comes down from her employer with a bunch of new rules they have to follow (after almost a month of already seeing kids). That includes checking temps from every person in the home before entering and requiring the families of these kids to wear masks as well. She was also told she can't under any circumstance disclose the fact that she is fully vaccinated. The only thermometer she has is one for infants/toddlers that is done by holding in the arm pit for 3 minutes. The employer has not provided her with any other equipment including masks to provide families. So along with checking the kid she is providing therapy to, she'll also be required to check all of that kid's siblings, parents, and anybody else in the home - she told me one family has a roommate that works nights and she's wondering how to tell them that they will need to get up out of bed so she can check their temp without upsetting them. She will also need to sterilize the one thermometer she has in between each person. So potentially the first 15 minutes of an hour visit will be doing this part. Along with asking the entire family about Covid symptoms. If anyone in the household has "Covid symptoms" (not listed in the policy) she will have to leave immediately and report the name of that person to her supervisor.
She told me that she'll be going back to telehealth even though this means the therapy she would have been able to provide will not be as effective for the child. It just isn't worth all of these new requirements that certainly many of her families will balk at anyway.
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I hope people are prepared for a new round of restrictions, which I support. The NFL is cracking down and now politicians are starting to make the distinction between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Hell, I've heard sports personalities rail against the unvaccinated because they want to see their favorite team on the field.
I've also slowly seen more business coming up with restrictions for the unvaccinated so just be prepared for what's coming....
Anybody paying attention to COVID and the Olympics?
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The NFL's policy is brilliant, and just the type of thinking we need. Basically, it says yeah, it's your choice, but your choice will have consequences aside from the whole becoming a disease vector, and since getting sick doesn't seem to be a deterrent, we know hitting you in the wallet will.
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I hope people are prepared for a new round of restrictions, which I support. The NFL is cracking down and now politicians are starting to make the distinction between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Hell, I've heard sports personalities rail against the unvaccinated because they want to see their favorite team on the field.
I've also slowly seen more business coming up with restrictions for the unvaccinated so just be prepared for what's coming....
Anybody paying attention to COVID and the Olympics?
I was watching an infectious disease expert on the news a few days ago, expressing concerns about athletes from different parts of the world bringing different strains of the virus together. All the different strains transmit information to each other on how to become more virulent and a monster strain is created.
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Dr. Google states approximately 80% of Covid infections are asymptomatic. I also read that we in the US are at the same level of infections that we were 365 days ago - which is probably incorrect as we aren't testing as much as we were a year ago.
I have a relative that does in-home therapy with special needs kids. She stopped telehealth visits July 1st and has been back in homes since then, wearing a mask and taking precautions. She is fully vaccinated but sometimes she works with an interpreter who is not vaccinated by choice.
Last Friday at 5 pm, this new policy comes down from her employer with a bunch of new rules they have to follow (after almost a month of already seeing kids). That includes checking temps from every person in the home before entering and requiring the families of these kids to wear masks as well. She was also told she can't under any circumstance disclose the fact that she is fully vaccinated. The only thermometer she has is one for infants/toddlers that is done by holding in the arm pit for 3 minutes. The employer has not provided her with any other equipment including masks to provide families. So along with checking the kid she is providing therapy to, she'll also be required to check all of that kid's siblings, parents, and anybody else in the home - she told me one family has a roommate that works nights and she's wondering how to tell them that they will need to get up out of bed so she can check their temp without upsetting them. She will also need to sterilize the one thermometer she has in between each person. So potentially the first 15 minutes of an hour visit will be doing this part. Along with asking the entire family about Covid symptoms. If anyone in the household has "Covid symptoms" (not listed in the policy) she will have to leave immediately and report the name of that person to her supervisor.
She told me that she'll be going back to telehealth even though this means the therapy she would have been able to provide will not be as effective for the child. It just isn't worth all of these new requirements that certainly many of her families will balk at anyway.
So the compromise is to not provide the possible care and help that is most effective for the child?
That's tough to make a choice between.
I hope people are prepared for a new round of restrictions, which I support. The NFL is cracking down and now politicians are starting to make the distinction between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Hell, I've heard sports personalities rail against the unvaccinated because they want to see their favorite team on the field.
I've also slowly seen more business coming up with restrictions for the unvaccinated so just be prepared for what's coming....
Anybody paying attention to COVID and the Olympics?
Which is dividing the people further into Stads us and them scenarios.
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The NFL's policy is brilliant, and just the type of thinking we need. Basically, it says yeah, it's your choice, but your choice will have consequences aside from the whole becoming a disease vector, and since getting sick doesn't seem to be a deterrent, we know hitting you in the wallet will.
If I understand it correctly, I like the NFL policy as well. It seems more nuanced than just "we're going to pretend to give you a choice, but the consequences for not doing as we wish kind of make it not really a choice". It seems to me they allow you to fuck up before there are ramifications, instead of the more common "bullying by consequences", which is fine by me.
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It seems more nuanced than just "we're going to pretend to give you a choice, but the consequences for not doing as we wish kind of make it not really a choice".
Hey, there's a whole subforum dedicated to religion.
;D
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A few days ago our daughter had a fever of 103 (if our thermometer is to be trusted). Gave her some Tylenol and went to the clinic. By the time they saw us, it was down to normal. No other symptoms. Neg Covid test. 24 hours later she was fine as if nothing happened. A bit scary for a bit as we were out of state and scheduled to fly home 2 days later.
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A few days ago our daughter had a fever of 103 (if our thermometer is to be trusted). Gave her some Tylenol and went to the clinic. By the time they saw us, it was down to normal. No other symptoms. Neg Covid test. 24 hours later she was fine as if nothing happened. A bit scary for a bit as we were out of state and scheduled to fly home 2 days later.
Glad to hear it wasn't the 'rona.
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Mom is vaxxed and the kids are under 12 (or whatever the age is). We were concerned, as the 3 year old and I had just flown, but airports and planes are enforcing mask wearing. So my thoughts went to "what are we supposed to do?" Which brings me back to your point. What do we do to "stay vigilant" here in July 2021? We didn't have to make the trip. Should I have not taken our unvaxxed kids 3,000 miles? How long do we avoid seeing our extended families? With tens of thousands of people attending sporting events, it sure doesn't feel like we are "in the middle" of a pandemic.
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3000 miles away? Where did you go to Chris!
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Hawaii big island. MiL is from there and most of her family is there. They usually rent a place for us all to stay, which is obviously a generous gift to us since travel can be costly. but is important for her for family to get together, especially as we all get older and even more especially after no one saw each other last year.
Would post pics but I have no idea how to do that here, which is sad because that is something even you do!
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Hawaii big island. MiL is from there and most of her family is there. They usually rent a place for us all to stay, which is obviously a generous gift to us since travel can be costly. but is important for her for family to get together, especially as we all get older and even more especially after no one saw each other last year.
Would post pics but I have no idea how to do that here, which is sad because that is something even you do!
Feel the shame, brother. Feel the shame. :lol
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Chris, Tim shaming you is the lowest of lows. :lol
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(https://media1.tenor.com/images/b178bb371954acb030acc1f812815ef7/tenor.gif?itemid=3532286)
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I know. When I want to share pics with family, I just email them. If it is a lot, I make an album in Google Photos and share them that way.
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Tim even agrees. Lol
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With tens of thousands of people attending sporting events, it sure doesn't feel like we are "in the middle" of a pandemic.
Pretty sure the virus doesn't care about anyone's feelings :lol
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The NFL's policy is brilliant, and just the type of thinking we need. Basically, it says yeah, it's your choice, but your choice will have consequences aside from the whole becoming a disease vector, and since getting sick doesn't seem to be a deterrent, we know hitting you in the wallet will.
mrs.jingle was telling me about Royal Caribbean's policies/protocols, and it makes it fairly expensive and cumbersome (insurance, testing, being denied ports of entry, limitation of ship services / where you can go) for unvaccinated people.
"The move came after Florida governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill into law that would penalize companies with $5,000 fines each time they ask a customer to provide proof that they've been vaccinated."
Good job Ron... all you've done is shift the burden (and/or cost) to consumers. Don't want to willingly provide proof of vaccination, fine... here's all your restrictions. Or worse yet ... they just won't set sail from Florida
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More and more Governors have signed legislation restricting how businesses can run their business with regards to covid. I thought republicans were pro-business? ???
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Better for the politics thread, but El Barto has written about this for years: it's not what's best for people, it's what gets votes. That might keep him in office.
Remember, Florida is in the top ten for sunlight potential, and yet the state has decreed that if you are a residential solar user, you can't contribute your excess back to the grid. From a renewable energy standpoint, it's about as inefficient a policy as you can get.
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More and more Governors have signed legislation restricting how businesses can run their business with regards to covid. I thought republicans were pro-business? ???
Without knowing what is being signed and by whom, that is a meaningless question.
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More and more Governors have signed legislation restricting how businesses can run their business with regards to covid. I thought republicans were pro-business? ???
Without knowing what is being signed and by whom, that is a meaningless question.
Florida, Texas.......It's out there......
COVID is bad - now are we back on track? :laugh:
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More and more Governors have signed legislation restricting how businesses can run their business with regards to covid. I thought republicans were pro-business? ???
If I google covid legislation I'm going to drown in articles unrelated to what you're discussing. Can you provide a few links so I know what you're talking about? Much appreciated.
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More and more Governors have signed legislation restricting how businesses can run their business with regards to covid. I thought republicans were pro-business? ???
If I google covid legislation I'm going to drown in articles unrelated to what you're discussing. Can you provide a few links so I know what you're talking about? Much appreciated.
Well here is one article that wasn't hard to find.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/05/20/mask-mandates-now-banned-for-local-governments-and-schools-in-growing-number-of-gop-states/?sh=4f943cfe66bf
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I appreciate that!
A quick skim though didn’t seem to have anything about business. It was about governments and schools.
Now, don't me wrong. I think it's very unwise and do not agree with it, but it's still not telling private businesses what they can and cannot do. At least as far as that article goes.
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I'm not saying a word here. Not a word.
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I'm not saying a word here. Not a word.
You said nine!
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I'm not saying a word here. Not a word.
You said nine!
Correction ... typed!
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I'm not saying a word here. Not a word.
You said nine!
Correction ... typed!
Voice to text!
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Better for the politics thread, but El Barto has written about this for years: it's not what's best for people, it's what gets votes. That might keep him in office.
Remember, Florida is in the top ten for sunlight potential, and yet the state has decreed that if you are a residential solar user, you can't contribute your excess back to the grid. From a renewable energy standpoint, it's about as inefficient a policy as you can get.
The full thing should be:
it's not what's best for people, it's what gets votes, and even more importantly, what makes my puppet master more money.
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More and more Governors have signed legislation restricting how businesses can run their business with regards to covid. I thought republicans were pro-business? ???
Spoiler alert. Both parties are filled with extremely corrupt, hypocritical people who care only for themselves and more importantly, those financing them.
"politicians" would have been quicker to type out.
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I'm not saying a word here. Not a word.
You said nine!
Correction ... typed!
Voice to text!
That poor smart phone.
Love you Stads.
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Right back attacha. :)
Once my daughter and I sat on the couch and our entire evening, all of our conversation was through the voice capture on the iPhone, with no chance to correct mistakes. I'm pretty sure I never laughed as hard as I did that night, with all the typos and such.
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https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/26/swedish-researchers-are-paying-people-23-to-have-their-covid-shot.html
This is an interesting one.
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Right back attacha. :)
Once my daughter and I sat on the couch and our entire evening, all of our conversation was through the voice capture on the iPhone, with no chance to correct mistakes. I'm pretty sure I never laughed as hard as I did that night, with all the typos and such.
That sounds fun. :lol
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I'm not saying a word here. Not a word.
*runs to buy lotto tickets*
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I'm not saying a word here. Not a word.
*runs to buy lotto tickets*
And skates, because Hell...
I'm also getting the smoke from the Cali fires out here (no lie) so the world is ending.
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I'm not saying a word here. Not a word.
You said nine!
Well a word would only be one. So he kept his promise.
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More and more Governors have signed legislation restricting how businesses can run their business with regards to covid. I thought republicans were pro-business? ???
Spoiler alert. Both parties are filled with extremely corrupt, hypocritical people who care only for themselves and more importantly, those financing them.
"politicians" would have been quicker to type out.
I will correct myself to say that Governors are restricting masked mandates to Government run offices and not necessarily businesses so that was my mistake so I am here to stand corrected.
And while I admit that both sides are corrupt, I see one side wanting to end this pandemic AND encouraging people to get the vaccine, while the other side has been discouraging that until recently.
COVID 19 sucks (keeping the subject on topic).
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I'm not saying a word here. Not a word.
*runs to buy lotto tickets*
And skates, because Hell...
I'm also getting the smoke from the Cali fires out here (no lie) so the world is ending.
Yeah, my kid lives in Connecticut, and said the same. Although, in California's defense, the biggest fire right now is mostly in Oregon.
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More and more Governors have signed legislation restricting how businesses can run their business with regards to covid. I thought republicans were pro-business? ???
Spoiler alert. Both parties are filled with extremely corrupt, hypocritical people who care only for themselves and more importantly, those financing them.
"politicians" would have been quicker to type out.
I will correct myself to say that Governors are restricting masked mandates to Government run offices and not necessarily businesses so that was my mistake so I am here to stand corrected.
And while I admit that both sides are corrupt, I see one side wanting to end this pandemic AND encouraging people to get the vaccine, while the other side has been discouraging that until recently.
COVID 19 sucks (keeping the subject on topic).
Like who? I see Republicans pushing for people to get Trump's vaccine, and I see Democrats pushing for people to get Biden's vaccine.
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More and more Governors have signed legislation restricting how businesses can run their business with regards to covid. I thought republicans were pro-business? ???
Spoiler alert. Both parties are filled with extremely corrupt, hypocritical people who care only for themselves and more importantly, those financing them.
"politicians" would have been quicker to type out.
I will correct myself to say that Governors are restricting masked mandates to Government run offices and not necessarily businesses so that was my mistake so I am here to stand corrected.
And while I admit that both sides are corrupt, I see one side wanting to end this pandemic AND encouraging people to get the vaccine, while the other side has been discouraging that until recently.
COVID 19 sucks (keeping the subject on topic).
Like who? I see Republicans pushing for people to get Trump's vaccine, and I see Democrats pushing for people to get Biden's vaccine.
There is only one vaccine. Tucker, Gaytz, Greene have all been talking negative about vaccines. Same with Trump. Name one Democrat that says don't get the vaccine.
COVID 19 sucks!
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Name one Democrat that says don't get the vaccine.
Um...have you forgotten that both our current president and current VP criticized the vaccine rollout during the election cycle and publicly said they would "never" get that vaccine? Just stop trying to make this a partisan issue. The virus sucks, and you have plenty of politicians on either side of the aisle that have handled themselves poorly. I fail to see the need for the constant blame game.
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Um...have you forgotten that both our current president and current VP criticized the vaccine rollout during the election cycle and publicly said they would "never" get that vaccine?
When did they ever say that?
Also, take it to P/R peeps. :p
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Name one Democrat that says don't get the vaccine.
Um...have you forgotten that both our current president and current VP criticized the vaccine rollout during the election cycle and publicly said they would "never" get that vaccine? Just stop trying to make this a partisan issue. The virus sucks, and you have plenty of politicians on either side of the aisle that have handled themselves poorly. I fail to see the need for the constant blame game.
Might want to check your sources there or at least put it in proper context.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/23/tiktok-posts/biden-harris-doubted-trump-covid-19-vaccines-not-v/
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Might want to check your sources
Thanks for the suggestion. But that article incorrectly implies that I am somehow relying on some Tiktok video, which I am not (and don't believe I have ever seen/heard).
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Might want to check your sources
Thanks for the suggestion. But that article incorrectly implies that I am somehow relying on some Tiktok video, which I am not (and don't believe I have ever seen/heard).
No that (Tik Tok) is just one example of how misinformation gets spread around. If you'd delve a bit further into the article it provides the exact quotes and context Biden and Harris made on the subject.
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Taking it to P/R
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More and more Governors have signed legislation restricting how businesses can run their business with regards to covid. I thought republicans were pro-business? ???
Spoiler alert. Both parties are filled with extremely corrupt, hypocritical people who care only for themselves and more importantly, those financing them.
"politicians" would have been quicker to type out.
I will correct myself to say that Governors are restricting masked mandates to Government run offices and not necessarily businesses so that was my mistake so I am here to stand corrected.
And while I admit that both sides are corrupt, I see one side wanting to end this pandemic AND encouraging people to get the vaccine, while the other side has been discouraging that until recently.
COVID 19 sucks (keeping the subject on topic).
Like who? I see Republicans pushing for people to get Trump's vaccine, and I see Democrats pushing for people to get Biden's vaccine.
There is only one vaccine. Tucker, Gaytz, Greene have all been talking negative about vaccines. Same with Trump. Name one Democrat that says don't get the vaccine.
COVID 19 sucks!
I know there's "only" one vaccine, but all the Trump haters, who called him Hitler for 4-5 years, rushed out to get it, and yet Biden is the one the press is saying 'saved the day' in regards to vaccine rollouts...
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Um...have you forgotten that both our current president and current VP criticized the vaccine rollout during the election cycle and publicly said they would "never" get that vaccine?
When did they ever say that?
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2021/07/18/im-not-taking-it-joe-biden-kamala-harris-led-covid-vaccine-skepticism-parade-before-election-1105376/ (https://www.bizpacreview.com/2021/07/18/im-not-taking-it-joe-biden-kamala-harris-led-covid-vaccine-skepticism-parade-before-election-1105376/)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/news/kamala-harris-says-she-wouldnt-trust-a-vaccine-trump-recommended/ar-BB19O9k4 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/news/kamala-harris-says-she-wouldnt-trust-a-vaccine-trump-recommended/ar-BB19O9k4)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-and-harris-preemptively-sow-doubt-on-trump-vaccine-announcement/ar-BB18QXKj (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-and-harris-preemptively-sow-doubt-on-trump-vaccine-announcement/ar-BB18QXKj)
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1. Not quite the same thing as what Bosk said, but still, not a great look I admit.
2. Any further discussion of Trump, Biden, Kamela, whomever goes to P/R. Final reminder.
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Well you can't trust anything a politician says especially during an election and one so close to election day. Either side.
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Also interesting that Biden said "Facebook is killing people" last week, in regards to covid 'misinformation' yet his own press secretary admitted on camera, with all her Neo-Marxist babble, "So we're regularly making sure social media platforms are aware of the latest narratives, dangerous to public health that we and many other Americans are seeing across all of social and traditional media. And we work to engage with them to better understand the enforcement of social media platform policies"
and she also said that the White House is "flagging problematic posts for Facebook that spread disinformation"
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fromaninukraine.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F01%2F35nfaEwQ.jpeg&hash=f3dc354ccb07d17891359390680dd67b6f4eb75a)
better quality
https://cbnc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/11930586556_dd9e143944_k-1-1536x1019.jpg (https://cbnc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/11930586556_dd9e143944_k-1-1536x1019.jpg)
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1. Not quite the same thing as what Bosk said, but still, not a great look I admit.
2. Any further discussion of Trump, Biden, Kamela, whomever goes to P/R. Final reminder.
Please allow me to post there.
I've sent requests multiple times.
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not for nothing, covid is political, so to have a thread about it and NOT debate politics is like saying we're going to bake a cake, and NOT use ingredients.
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XJ- take it to PR...
Everyone- fucking ignores him
:lol
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1. Not quite the same thing as what Bosk said, but still, not a great look I admit.
I was paraphrasing. But I do recall stronger comments made in less formal settings than what is quoted there. But regardless, (1) the particulars aren't relevant to my point, which is that there is no need to politicize it (at least, in this thread, although I would also argue that it need not be politicized in any context) and try to point fingers, because those fingers can easily be pointed in any direction. And also:
2. Any further discussion of Trump, Biden, Kamela, whomever goes to P/R. Final reminder.
This. Sorry for taking us farther down that tangent in responding to Hunnus.
1. Not quite the same thing as what Bosk said, but still, not a great look I admit.
2. Any further discussion of Trump, Biden, Kamela, whomever goes to P/R. Final reminder.
Please allow me to post there.
I've sent requests multiple times.
And those requests have been rejected, for what should be obvious reasons. If you have questions about that, you can ask privately and you will be responded to privately. But for the last time, this thread is not meant for political discussion. As I have said numerous times, I try to be understanding and give a little leeway for topics that naturally tend to gravitate that direction. Sometimes, it's hard to avoid keeping the discussion from occasionally straying that direction. I get it. But you keep repeatedly and deliberately taking the discussion that direction, and did so here even after being expressly told by XJ not to. This is your final warning on the subject, and if you keep making this discussion political, you will be banned.
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XJ- take it to PR...
Everyone- fucking ignores him
:lol
Zip it, Trump lover!
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:RJ:
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:thrustybosk:
:(
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:thrustybosk:
:(
#walkawaybackwards
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And those requests have been rejected, for what should be obvious reasons. If you have questions about that, you can ask privately and you will be responded to privately.
PM sent
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:thrustybosk:
:(
There is only one thrusty on these boards...
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_2648_1589658190.gif)
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Brutal surge down here in Florida. Every county is in the high category. We are back at peak levels again and 99% are not vaccinated. Following past trends, the northern states will experience what we are feeling in a few weeks. Buckle up and get ready.
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More and more Governors have signed legislation restricting how businesses can run their business with regards to covid. I thought republicans were pro-business? ???
Spoiler alert. Both parties are filled with extremely corrupt, hypocritical people who care only for themselves and more importantly, those financing them.
"politicians" would have been quicker to type out.
I will correct myself to say that Governors are restricting masked mandates to Government run offices and not necessarily businesses so that was my mistake so I am here to stand corrected.
And while I admit that both sides are corrupt, I see one side wanting to end this pandemic AND encouraging people to get the vaccine, while the other side has been discouraging that until recently.
COVID 19 sucks (keeping the subject on topic).
Yep, sides. Because that's how we'll stop this. Pointing fingers and mocking those that don't think like us. How's that worked so far?
I know PLENTY of Republicans, and the vast majority not only advocate for the vaccine, but have received it. The two people I know best in my life that have refused the vaccine? DEMOCRATS. Now, I know full well that's not statistically relevant, it's anecdotal at best, and not in keeping with the initial flurry of poll results (which we're not seeing a ton of reference too, largely because people smarter than us realized it was a misleading correlation rather than causation), but still, broad-brushes don't get us anywhere except more polarized, and more dug in to our positions.
This is not a political post. This is a COVID post. We know that the best way to get people to take the vaccine is to build up it's efficacy and it's safety (https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?abVariantId=0&campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210719&instance_id=35675&nl=the-morning&productCode=NN®i_id=98172875&segment_id=63826&te=1&uri=nyt%3A%2F%2Fnewsletter%2F6d943893-84bd-5d63-9179-cc1b92f9937b&user_id=aca5307c339a4c289909cc886a4db4a9), so let's do that instead of beating down and mocking those that aren't as "enlightened" (in quotes for sarcasm) as us.
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Brutal surge down here in Florida. Every county is in the high category. We are back at peak levels again and 99% are not vaccinated. Following past trends, the northern states will experience what we are feeling in a few weeks. Buckle up and get ready.
I think in a few weeks we will see the cases go back down. Following the UK timeline, we are a few weeks behind and they are going down over there. We will see. But typically these spikes last a couple months, we are probably peaking now or soon.
What's really important though, death counts have not been going up. It's been really steady under 300 daily for the last month. It may go up in a few weeks as it lags cases by a couple weeks, but I think this is a sign that the vaccine works. It doesn't prevent infections, but it does a great job preventing death.
And because of that, I really don't see the point in spreading fear. There's certainly pockets in the US and many countries in the rest of the world that have legitimate concerns because of the lack of access to vaccines (or hesitancy here in the US), but locally in the US, I just don't see much reason to be worried about the near future.
Also remember, the entire country is basically back to being fully opened without masks while the most contagious variant is running wild yet we aren't seeing a spike in deaths. We are doing OK (could be much much better without the misinformation though).
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From an addiction recovery friend on Facebook..
It's funny how so many folks we know use to put shit in our bodies without knowing what was in it but are afraid to get a vaccine. I was talking to someone the other day who use to shoot up with delta water but won't get the vaccine
. Can't make this shit up
I got nothing... :lolpalm:
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From an addiction recovery friend on Facebook..
It's funny how so many folks we know use to put shit in our bodies without knowing what was in it but are afraid to get a vaccine. I was talking to someone the other day who use to shoot up with delta water but won't get the vaccine
. Can't make this shit up
I got nothing... :lolpalm:
Addicition is so strong that you just don't care what you take, even though it is poisonous, toxic, and can kill you. The addicition causes one to forgo any sense of risk and would go to great lengths to have the fix. People end up stealing, being violent, and other types of behaviors that person would not be engaging in if not for their addiction.
When one recovers from Addiction. One then becomes aware of how much crazy ass shit they put into and did to their bodies. One realizes, how the hell am I alive?...
The addict was not aware, nor cared, that they were shooting up Delta Water. Their main priority and concern was to get that high and feel good.
The recovered addict is very aware, and highly concerned, over what they put into and do to their bodies. There's lots of things a recovering addict has to avoid just to not relapse.
It doesn't surprise me at all, if a recovering addict has concerns about the vaccines, and decides not to take it.
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Yeah... No. Speaking from over 10 years in recovery circles, while a few may change stripes in such a manner, moat issues like antivax don't change because of some super heightened awareness of what we put in our bodies. I've sponsored more than a few people, and they all remained of the same firm beliefs about pretty much everything post recovery. Such assumptions are just false.
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The whole 'experimental drug' argument from the folks who won't get vaccinated is just silly to me. Outside of the obvious reasons of it not really being experimental at all.....a large portion of the worlds population holds a smart phone to their ears and keeps them in their pockets near 90% of every day. We really don't have much long term data that truly shows the effects of wifi signals or any of the other invisible wave lengths or whatever that smart phones emit.
There's a chance that in 20-30 years we see some form of new tumor or cancer associated with this crap that slowly radiates and cooks through our bodies but no one talks about THAT experiment
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The whole 'experimental drug' argument from the folks who won't get vaccinated is just silly to me. Outside of the obvious reasons of it not really being experimental at all.....a large portion of the worlds population holds a smart phone to their ears and keeps them in their pockets near 90% of every day. We really don't have much long term data that truly shows the effects of wifi signals or any of the other invisible wave lengths or whatever that smart phones emit.
There's a chance that in 20-30 years we see some form of new tumor or cancer associated with this crap that slowly radiates and cooks through our bodies but no one talks about THAT experiment
Actually UC Berkeley just posted a study confirming a correlation between cell phones and cancer
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The whole 'experimental drug' argument from the folks who won't get vaccinated is just silly to me. Outside of the obvious reasons of it not really being experimental at all.....a large portion of the worlds population holds a smart phone to their ears and keeps them in their pockets near 90% of every day. We really don't have much long term data that truly shows the effects of wifi signals or any of the other invisible wave lengths or whatever that smart phones emit.
There's a chance that in 20-30 years we see some form of new tumor or cancer associated with this crap that slowly radiates and cooks through our bodies but no one talks about THAT experiment
Actually UC Berkeley just posted a study confirming a correlation between cell phones and cancer
Not surprising. I'm genuinely concerned about it. Not for me really....but my kids essentially growing up with all this wireless crap around them. It just hasn't been a technology long enough for us to truly understand the effects it has on our bodies. That should be WAY more concerning than a vaccine that was developed by people who's only agenda was/is to stop a global pandemic.
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The whole 'experimental drug' argument from the folks who won't get vaccinated is just silly to me. Outside of the obvious reasons of it not really being experimental at all.....a large portion of the worlds population holds a smart phone to their ears and keeps them in their pockets near 90% of every day. We really don't have much long term data that truly shows the effects of wifi signals or any of the other invisible wave lengths or whatever that smart phones emit.
There's a chance that in 20-30 years we see some form of new tumor or cancer associated with this crap that slowly radiates and cooks through our bodies but no one talks about THAT experiment
It's due to the fact it used new science technology involving compounds that are used for our biological basis. And people are afraid of what the consequences are for Patenting Life...
mRNA is brand new technology that science has developed.
Did people suddenly all drive cars when they were first developed? Did people suddenly jump on the Hindenburg?
Peoples awareness and concerns for this type of Science Technology is in that it has never been implemented and executed among the masses, until this moment in our human history (that we know of).
People do talk about Cancer causing radiation waves in Cellphones. That's the entire basis for 5G and it's effects that people are clamoring about now. They also talk about those in the Microwaves.
Also people talk about the Energy that comes from the sun. Solar Energy and Radiation waves strong enough to potentially fry our Electronic Technology. The ozone, and other layers in our sky, protect us from these harmful Rays and Waves.
In short. Some people's concerns has to do with the advancement of technology and some don't see any good coming from it.
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The whole 'experimental drug' argument from the folks who won't get vaccinated is just silly to me. Outside of the obvious reasons of it not really being experimental at all.....a large portion of the worlds population holds a smart phone to their ears and keeps them in their pockets near 90% of every day. We really don't have much long term data that truly shows the effects of wifi signals or any of the other invisible wave lengths or whatever that smart phones emit.
There's a chance that in 20-30 years we see some form of new tumor or cancer associated with this crap that slowly radiates and cooks through our bodies but no one talks about THAT experiment
Actually UC Berkeley just posted a study confirming a correlation between cell phones and cancer
Not surprising. I'm genuinely concerned about it. Not for me really....but my kids essentially growing up with all this wireless crap around them. It just hasn't been a technology long enough for us to truly understand the effects it has on our bodies. That should be WAY more concerning than a vaccine that was developed by people who's only agenda was/is to stop a global pandemic.
Yup... Totally agree.
And I'd likewise be concerned for myself except for me I'm pretty sure whatever cancers I develop will come from my extensive use of the two top carcinogenic substances, tobacco and alcohol.
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In short. Some people's concerns has to do with the advancement of technology and some don't see any good coming from it.
As opposed to all the 'good' that comes from leaving yourself more exposed to a global pandemic inducing virus??
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The whole 'experimental drug' argument from the folks who won't get vaccinated is just silly to me. Outside of the obvious reasons of it not really being experimental at all.....a large portion of the worlds population holds a smart phone to their ears and keeps them in their pockets near 90% of every day. We really don't have much long term data that truly shows the effects of wifi signals or any of the other invisible wave lengths or whatever that smart phones emit.
There's a chance that in 20-30 years we see some form of new tumor or cancer associated with this crap that slowly radiates and cooks through our bodies but no one talks about THAT experiment
Actually UC Berkeley just posted a study confirming a correlation between cell phones and cancer
Not surprising. I'm genuinely concerned about it. Not for me really....but my kids essentially growing up with all this wireless crap around them. It just hasn't been a technology long enough for us to truly understand the effects it has on our bodies. That should be WAY more concerning than a vaccine that was developed by people who's only agenda was/is to stop a global pandemic.
Funny enough, though, we don't go around telling people that use cellphones that they are stupid deplorable selfish Republican assholes. If anything, the focus is and always has been on the efficacy of hands free, how it is safer (to drive), more convenient, more liberating.
For the 100th time: "How Risky Is It, Anyway?" by Dave Ropeik. We're NOT GOOD at this, and don't - generally - assess risk in a purely mathematical, logical way.
BAFFLING to me for all the people here and elsewhere that claim to be science-first and data-driven that there's so little actual science in the "how do we fix this". We KNOW what works. No. 1: promote the CRAP out of the safety and efficacy of the vaccine. In my old town, Enfield (the same town where the guy around the corner had the "F*** Trump" sign on his front lawn), this past week, the local McDonald's had free vaccines in their dining room. Enough people came that it made the local news (there were incentives offered as well; Mickey D's gift cards and a drawing). I'm not sure what that actually tells us, but it tells us something at least about the availability of the vaccine (perceived or otherwise) and the context in which the vaccine is given (perceived or otherwise).
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I don't disagree with the premise of your first statement there, Bill ... but it's not a terribly sound analogy.
Using a cellphone around someone doesn't represent a known (albeit, potential) public health risk.
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In short. Some people's concerns has to do with the advancement of technology and some don't see any good coming from it.
As opposed to all the 'good' that comes from leaving yourself more exposed to a global pandemic inducing virus??
This advancement was worked on in labs for decades. People think the vaccine was rushed. They just had to tweak it and test results first to make sure it would work against the virus.
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Just wait until the masses find out about CRISPR gene altering. We are on the cusp of astounding possibilities but our ethical and moral boundaries will be tested.
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I don't disagree with the premise of your first statement there, Bill ... but it's not a terribly sound analogy.
Using a cellphone around someone doesn't represent a known (albeit, potential) public health risk.
If it causes cancer, of course it does. The "wifi" tendrils don't know if you are the user or not. There might be a proximity issue, but that's the same with COVID.
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In short. Some people's concerns has to do with the advancement of technology and some don't see any good coming from it.
As opposed to all the 'good' that comes from leaving yourself more exposed to a global pandemic inducing virus??
This advancement was worked on in labs for decades. People think the vaccine was rushed. They just had to tweak it and test results first to make sure it would work against the virus.
That's true, but it's also fair to say that people may or may not have been aware of that. I'm no idiot, I'm pro-vaccine, but I didn't know the extent of the research until I looked into it myself. And this wouldn't be the first time that something in the lab didn't expose other risks when in the real world. Microwave ovens were discovered in what, the '50's and didn't get into popular use until the 70's or something like that.
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It's been on the the major networks and if this dummy know it, shouldn't others? :lol I think it's the old, "Hear what you want to hear to fit your narrative" for most people. We've all done it.
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I don't disagree with the premise of your first statement there, Bill ... but it's not a terribly sound analogy.
Using a cellphone around someone doesn't represent a known (albeit, potential) public health risk.
If it causes cancer, of course it does. The "wifi" tendrils don't know if you are the user or not. There might be a proximity issue, but that's the same with COVID.
If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. (my standard answer to shaky 'if/then' statements)
Let me know when WIFI is declared a global pandemic, then I'll grant you the validity of the analogy :biggrin:
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I don't disagree with the premise of your first statement there, Bill ... but it's not a terribly sound analogy.
Using a cellphone around someone doesn't represent a known (albeit, potential) public health risk.
If it causes cancer, of course it does. The "wifi" tendrils don't know if you are the user or not. There might be a proximity issue, but that's the same with COVID.
If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. (my standard answer to shaky 'if/then' statements)
Let me know when WIFI is declared a global pandemic, then I'll grant you the validity of the analogy :biggrin:
Right after windmills. It's coming.
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I don't disagree with the premise of your first statement there, Bill ... but it's not a terribly sound analogy.
Using a cellphone around someone doesn't represent a known (albeit, potential) public health risk.
If it causes cancer, of course it does. The "wifi" tendrils don't know if you are the user or not. There might be a proximity issue, but that's the same with COVID.
If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. (my standard answer to shaky 'if/then' statements)
Let me know when WIFI is declared a global pandemic, then I'll grant you the validity of the analogy :biggrin:
Right after windmills. It's coming.
Windmills are going to be what does humanity in. Not only does the sound they emit cause cancer, but they kill ALL the birds. They can also ruin the ocean views for people with beachfront property. I hope all those people on Martha's Vineyard are able to cope!
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Florida reports over 16K new daily cases to CDC Tuesday.
https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-numbers/covid-in-florida-16000-cases-vaccine/67-511b337f-0ae9-4694-b927-5dffb346ae5a
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Florida reports over 16K new daily cases to CDC Tuesday.
https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-numbers/covid-in-florida-16000-cases-vaccine/67-511b337f-0ae9-4694-b927-5dffb346ae5a
Not surprising. A state that hasn't been strong on vaccination and a state that wasn't hit so hard in the first few waves is now getting hit hard due to the more contagious version of the virus. Similar to how India was doing fine until Delta.
In NJ our governor has stated he is currently not going to mandate the masks again.... unless things continue to get worse. So I'm curious how long he will wait it out because my thoughts are the cases will go down soon as we plateau in the next couple weeks. Most of the state is not considered to be a high virus area though according to the CDC (apparently, my county is though)
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These confirmed cases....
Are the people that are testing positive going to the doctor for Covid symptoms, or are they going in for something else entirely, then required to get tested and coming back positive?
Wouldn't that play into the intent of people by them only being tested because they went to the clinic or doctor for something else entirely, and wouldn't have went if not for that purpose and wouldn't have known they had Covid?
What if some of these people in Florida went to their annual check ups and got tested and came back positive?
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These confirmed cases....
Are the people that are testing positive going to the doctor for Covid symptoms, or are they going in for something else entirely, then required to get tested and coming back positive?
Wouldn't that play into the intent of people by them only being tested because they went to the clinic or doctor for something else entirely, and wouldn't have went if not for that purpose and wouldn't have known they had Covid?
What if some of these people in Florida went to their annual check ups and got tested and came back positive?
???
A positive test is a positive test. Not sure how someone sitting at home that is symptomatic is any different than someone going to the doctor for a colonoscopy and getting tested prior to the procedure. Both of them tested positive for COVID.
I'm so tired of the nitpicking of COVID data and deaths, as if the government is trying to hoodwink people.
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These confirmed cases....
Are the people that are testing positive going to the doctor for Covid symptoms, or are they going in for something else entirely, then required to get tested and coming back positive?
Wouldn't that play into the intent of people by them only being tested because they went to the clinic or doctor for something else entirely, and wouldn't have went if not for that purpose and wouldn't have known they had Covid?
What if some of these people in Florida went to their annual check ups and got tested and came back positive?
???
A positive test is a positive test. Not sure how someone sitting at home that is symptomatic is any different than someone going to the doctor for a colonoscopy and getting tested prior to the procedure. Both of them tested positive for COVID.
I'm so tired of the nitpicking of COVID data and deaths, as if the government is trying to hoodwink people.
The issue is spread. And these people would've been asymptomatically spreading it if they had not went to the doctor and gotten tested that way.
As it is, vaccinated people can still catch and spread it. Hence the reason for the CDC new recommendation for vaccinated people to wear masks indoors now.
So what's the point of a vaccination card and access if those vaccinated could still catch and spread the virus.
Unless I am missing something about why the CDC said for vaccinated people to also mask up indoors?...
As Is said, the vaccine is only to prevent "YOU" from getting any severe symptoms of the virus and possibly dying.
Apparently these vaccines won't help stop the spread as they thought, because what else is the reason for the CDC vaccinated must also wear masks indoors recommendation if not to stop the spread.
Vaccines do work, but not in the way people think they do. They're remedies as all drugs are. They can possibly cure and defeat the disease, so the sickness won't intrude on our rights to life, liberty and happiness.
Which is what it's about right. The right for the other to not have their life, liberties and happiness intruded by this disease.
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These confirmed cases....
Are the people that are testing positive going to the doctor for Covid symptoms, or are they going in for something else entirely, then required to get tested and coming back positive?
Wouldn't that play into the intent of people by them only being tested because they went to the clinic or doctor for something else entirely, and wouldn't have went if not for that purpose and wouldn't have known they had Covid?
What if some of these people in Florida went to their annual check ups and got tested and came back positive?
???
A positive test is a positive test. Not sure how someone sitting at home that is symptomatic is any different than someone going to the doctor for a colonoscopy and getting tested prior to the procedure. Both of them tested positive for COVID.
I'm so tired of the nitpicking of COVID data and deaths, as if the government is trying to hoodwink people.
If the data is valid it will survive the nitpicking. If we go back to the stated premise for the restrictions - the avoidance of overwhelming our healthcare system - then the data about symptomatic and asymptomatic cases (and the relative vaccination statuses of the two groups) is very relevant information. One might argue if 100% of COVID cases are asymptomatic, there is no need for any increased protocols (they're not, and I'm not, so don't panic, but it's a fair question).
I'm so tired of the dismissal of any point that doesn't follow the narrative. ;). (Kidding).
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My company just pushed our September 13th return to office date back "at least a month" with no new date formally declared yet.
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And the place I work has outbreaks in all buildings. It is recommended that we mask up when walking around the building.
BTW, they are not communicating the number of outbreaks like they did when we were at home. >:(
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17,589 new cases yesterday. Our facility, along with every other hospital in Central Florida is at level BLACK. There are no levels worse than black.
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17,589 new cases yesterday. Our facility, along with every other hospital in Central Florida is at level BLACK. There are no levels worse than black.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyx297ug6j1qkyo4ro2_250.gifv)
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:lol I shouldn't laugh but damn that was a well place gif Chino
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It's behind a paywall, but there's a great article in today's New York Times "The Morning" about the COVID virus and the mysteries that surround it (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/briefing/coronavirus-delta-mysteries.html). The "mysteries" are really those ways that the virus hasn't behaved in accordance with our expectations of human control. The fact is, it DOESN'T always respond directly to changed in human behavior.
- India: where the Delta variant was first identified, cases have plummeted over the past two months, and a similar thing in Britain, but with no clear impetus for these drops.
- U.S.: cases started dropping in January, before widespread vaccinations took hold, and there is no discernible change in American's COVID attitudes or behaviors to explain the drop.
- In March and April, the Alpha variant caused cases to spike in the upper Midwest and Canada, but it did NOT spread to the rest of America, despite expert fears.
- This spring, caseloads were NOT consistently higher in those parts of the U.S. that relaxed masking and distancing measures, as compared to those that kept them in place. (This is the Florida/California comparison I make a lot).
- Large swaths of Africa and Asia have not experienced the size of the outbreaks that Europe and the U.S. have seen.
The conclusion of Michael Osterholm, head of an infectious disease research center at the University of Minnesota maintains that, other than the vaccine itself, we should have a LOT more humility in terms of what we as humans are doing to "control" this essentially "uncontrollable" virus. Sure we can take precautions, but to presume they are hard and fast as cause and effect is not accurately supported by what we've seen.
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Protip... to get articles behind a paywall, just go to http://archive.is. I don't think posting this is a violation of any DTF forum rules, but if it is, my apologies in advance.
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Protip... to get articles behind a paywall, just go to http://archive.is. I don't think posting this is a violation of any DTF forum rules, but if it is, my apologies in advance.
*ducks to avoid banhammer*
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Jingle :tup
I wonder about this article though...
In India — where the Delta variant was first identified and caused a huge outbreak — cases have plunged over the past two months. A similar drop may now be underway in Britain. There is no clear explanation for these declines.
I'd love to see how David Leonhardt came to the conclusion of that last sentence.
Wouldn't natural immunity account for that? I'm no ID specialist but I have read numerous experts' opinions on India. I'll try to paraphrase from memory but during the initial outbreaks, India didn't seem to have a large impact from the virus but this was likely because the spread was among the lower castes who wouldn't not have had much access to testing and medical care. So the truth is, the actual impact was not known.
Then Delta comes and suddenly the whole populace of the country is impacted quite severely. Undoubtedly many of those severe cases also came with scores of less severe cases thus natural immunity becomes a large factor in the current plunge.
I guess my quibble - and it is only a quibble - with these types of articles is that the author seems to draw conclusions that may or may not be accurate or not account for all the variables.
Covid is maddening in its unpredictability. I think these variables are only beginning to be unpacked. I'm also certain there will be more surprises to come.
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What I'm concerned with is the breakthrough cases. I'm aware of more than 20 just from employees. Some were not super sick, others were very sick but not hospitalized. The CDC only reports breakthrough cases that require hospitalization or death. We're missing 14 nurses today. All were vaccinated. The truck driver that brings our supplies had Pfizer in April and got hammered 3 weeks ago. He missed 2 weeks of work. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic but I am genuinely concerned and think this might be more of an issue than anyone is willing to talk about.
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What I'm concerned with is the breakthrough cases. I'm aware of more than 20 just from employees. Some were not super sick, others were very sick but not hospitalized. The CDC only reports breakthrough cases that require hospitalization or death. We're missing 14 nurses today. All were vaccinated. The truck driver that brings our supplies had Pfizer in April and got hammered 3 weeks ago. He missed 2 weeks of work. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic but I am genuinely concerned and think this might be more of an issue than anyone is willing to talk about.
Dayum. This is indeed concerning. IMO, it's only a matter of time before all these breakthrough cases morph into something more than just a little (or a lot) sick.
Slight uptick in cases here in Ontario over the last few days. That's the first ring of the warning bell - that most people don't want to listen or pay attention to.
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Time for a booster... (https://youtube.com/shorts/Rant5nLR5GA?feature=share)
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https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/cdc-study-shows-74percent-of-people-infected-in-massachusetts-covid-outbreak-were-fully-vaccinated.html
I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I also don't really accept coincidences. It's hard to not read that and think "huh, setting the stage for another round of mandates!" I try hard not to be cynical, but it's starting to be the default setting when it comes to this stuff.
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Wow. Very troubling if true. Pretty much matches what I'm personally seeing on the front lines though. Honestly, I don't know what the hell to think any think any more.
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https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/cdc-study-shows-74percent-of-people-infected-in-massachusetts-covid-outbreak-were-fully-vaccinated.html
I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I also don't really accept coincidences. It's hard to not read that and think "huh, setting the stage for another round of mandates!" I try hard not to be cynical, but it's starting to be the default setting when it comes to this stuff.
Ooof. I'm going to a concert tonight in Bridgeport (that new Hartford Health amphitheater) and I'm low-key a bit concerned. I purposely picked seats in the back row to be above and behind everyone else, and I think I'm actually going to mask up.
As for the mandate thing... I mean, if this thing mutates to the point where only a quarter of vaccinated people are protected, and the virus has begins to spread more aggressively, they have to at the very least be floated. I don't think a lockdown like last year is in the cards without their being legit riots. I don't know what the solution is. Fingers crossed for whatever comes.
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The one thing about that article is that there didn't seem to be any raw numbers, just percentages. If 3 out of 4 people broke through, that's 75%, but that's not the same thing as 75,000 out of 100,000, statistically.
And that doesn't jive with the notion that the vast majority - if not all - of recent deaths/hospitalizations are of non-vaccinated people.
Again, no conspiracy guy, but it doesn't add up and in the minds of those that are more prone to conspiracies, this is fertile ground.
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I don't know how your government agencies communicate in the US, but over here the general communications clearly state vaccination is for protection against (severe) illness rather than prevention of infection.
Chances of severe illness are significantly smaller (around the 90% for Pfizer and Moderna, I believe. We stopped with Astrazenica and Jansen early on) for the fully vaccinated people. That group is way less likely to clog hospitals and drive the necessity for measures. But that does not mean they won't get ill.
Science thus far indicates the delta variant is bad news. And really affects the numbers we are seeing as well. It is not unreasonable to believe this variant would've been an even larger distaster if it struck pre-vaccine times. Unfortunately, it also seems to be a bigger burden on younger people as well.
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Yeah, those types of numbers and statistics aren't as alarming as they can at first appear. As more and more people become vaccinated a higher proportion of everything will involve people who are vaccinated. It's simple ratios. 6 months from now the Daily Mail (British tabloid) will be (accurately) running headlines that 98% of suicides were among Covid vaccinated people.
What we do know is that people who are vaccinated are far less likely to suffer greatly, and as regards lockdowns, if everyone who can safely be vaccinated gets vaccinated then the likelihood of serious illness overwhelming the capacity of hospitals is much lower. Massachusetts may have a lot of cases now but the daily death count is still tumbling since the vaccines came in:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/massachusetts/
It's not about preventing cases (it looks like we're never going to do this now; this is just a virus we're going to have to live with), it's about preventing deaths and cases so severe that they require hospitalisation.
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That is just what I was going to say. It is alarming at first pass until you consider how many people are vaccinated in Massachusetts. And there are other factors I'm sure that go into those statistics which aren't obvious immediately on the surface. I will say 4 hospitalizations out of 400 cases is pretty damn good, I'll take those chances any day of the week. And it's no deaths.
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The one thing about that article is that there didn't seem to be any raw numbers, just percentages. If 3 out of 4 people broke through, that's 75%, but that's not the same thing as 75,000 out of 100,000, statistically.
And that doesn't jive with the notion that the vast majority - if not all - of recent deaths/hospitalizations are of non-vaccinated people.
Again, no conspiracy guy, but it doesn't add up and in the minds of those that are more prone to conspiracies, this is fertile ground.
This is that "Dark Ironic Hilarity" I was talking about earlier in regards to Nature showing humans we do not dominate the world, even though many believe and think we do.
This is why it's still good to be asking these questions, regardless of how stupid they may sound. This proves to us that we don't know until it happens. The hard slap of reality of how harsh life truly is and how Nature truly is.
If they want to start doing these vaccine mandates, then they need to include testing all the people as well. And not just let the vaccinated in without a test, while making the unvaccinated require a negative test to enter.
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We put back mask mandates at my work place. Regardless of vaccination status, everyone must wear a mask unless you have your own office. Seems like NYC is going in that direction so we are trying to get ahead of it. It sucks, but it is what it is. I'm becoming numb to all these already.
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*rubs eyes and looks again*
DAVE!!! :hefdaddy
@Ben are you talking about antibody testing or testing for current infection?
It's always good to remember that one can test negative for current infection and be so early in their disease process that they don't have enough virus in them yet to test positive. And they can still spread it, thinking they are safe. There also false negatives.
I'm not saying I don't trust testing. I'm just saying that there is no perfect failsafe measure.
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Massachusetts representin'!
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*breathes massive sigh of relief*
Hi Dave :eek :-*
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*rubs eyes and looks again*
DAVE!!! :hefdaddy
@Ben are you talking about antibody testing or testing for current infection?
It's always good to remember that one can test negative for current infection and be so early in their disease process that they don't have enough virus in them yet to test positive. And they can still spread it, thinking they are safe. There also false negatives.
I'm not saying I don't trust testing. I'm just saying that there is no perfect failsafe measure.
Current infection.
Yup, I know about false positives.
I actually do not mind being tested to enter an event if that's how they want to implement a safe measure for the attendees.
Although, if they do implement a test, which do you think would be better to use?
I'm not sure on the antibody testing if that would be a better way or not?
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Oh for entry. PCR tests are best and more accurate but you'll likely be offered the rapid test.
*************
Walt Disney Co. is mandating Covid vaccines for US workers. I'm surprised that is going to fly in Flori-duh. Didn't Ron ban those or just the vaccine passports?
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Disney is its own state.
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Another snap 3 day lockdown here in Brisbane starting later today. Crazy, I haven't even been following how the latest outbreak even happened up here lol.
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Yeah, those types of numbers and statistics aren't as alarming as they can at first appear. As more and more people become vaccinated a higher proportion of everything will involve people who are vaccinated. It's simple ratios. 6 months from now the Daily Mail (British tabloid) will be (accurately) running headlines that 98% of suicides were among Covid vaccinated people.
What we do know is that people who are vaccinated are far less likely to suffer greatly, and as regards lockdowns, if everyone who can safely be vaccinated gets vaccinated then the likelihood of serious illness overwhelming the capacity of hospitals is much lower. Massachusetts may have a lot of cases now but the daily death count is still tumbling since the vaccines came in:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/massachusetts/
It's not about preventing cases (it looks like we're never going to do this now; this is just a virus we're going to have to live with), it's about preventing deaths and cases so severe that they require hospitalisation.
Yup. I've said a lot of the headlines have been fear mongering and that the vaccines have been working. It's very clear with the data out there. Yes, it may not work as well as the virus mutates, and yes you still can get sick... but the data so far pretty much shows that almost all very ill and dying people are unvaccinated.
I've had a few close friends being anti covid vax, and I've been pretty much the same here as in my group chat. Probably harder on them because it's not public. But one of them got his first shot, and the other finally said he will get it soon. :metal
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It's not about preventing cases (it looks like we're never going to do this now; this is just a virus we're going to have to live with), it's about preventing deaths and cases so severe that they require hospitalisation.
And as Stadler rightly pointed out, the raw numbers aren't as alarming as the SHOCKING headline - 469 COVID cases; 347 people were vax'd; 5 were hospiltalized. That pretty much tells me the vax is doing it's fucking job.
Massachusetts representin'!
LMAO!!
I've had a few close friends being anti covid vax, and I've been pretty much the same here as in my group chat. Probably harder on them because it's not public. But one of them got his first shot, and the other finally said he will get it soon. :metal
That's refreshing to hear.
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CDC is already hitting back at the media for the way they've run away with the story without providing the proper context or qualifications. And that's nothing new. The media love to run away with half digested information and don't really care about all that as long as it gets them the Doom clicks.
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It's not about preventing cases (it looks like we're never going to do this now; this is just a virus we're going to have to live with), it's about preventing deaths and cases so severe that they require hospitalisation.
I wrote about this a couple days ago; we are not even CLOSE to this line of thinking in America. Here in Connecticut, the "case" graph shows a surge back in I think it was January, and a surge now; the "death" graph shows a surge back in January (lagging the case surge by a short duration) but NO DEATH SURGE now. IF the goal is preventing serious ramifications of the virus, we're there right now, but that's not at all reflected in any of the dialogue or communications.
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It's not about preventing cases (it looks like we're never going to do this now; this is just a virus we're going to have to live with), it's about preventing deaths and cases so severe that they require hospitalisation.
I wrote about this a couple days ago; we are not even CLOSE to this line of thinking in America. Here in Connecticut, the "case" graph shows a surge back in I think it was January, and a surge now; the "death" graph shows a surge back in January (lagging the case surge by a short duration) but NO DEATH SURGE now. IF the goal is preventing serious ramifications of the virus, we're there right now, but that's not at all reflected in any of the dialogue or communications.
I still think it's better to vaccinate as many as possible, and as Cram's friends prove, there's still some wiggle room out there.
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We're expecting full mask mandates here within a week. Two other counties joined LA yesterday.
:zeltar:
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So I'm being forced to be the 'bad guy' today....here's the story.
We have friends who the wife is throwing her husband a surprise 40th party today. She finds out yesterday that her youngest who was at a camp all last week was in a group with a kid who tested positive for Corona. They haven't tested their son...but, I told my wife that I wasn't letting our youngest go to the party since he, that boy and all of his cousins would most likely just be together all night. I'm not going to go either.
Thing is she volunteered with her sister to get the house ready for the surprise while the mom has their family out for them to come home to the surprise. I just said me and my youngest aren't going. My other two sons were already not going to go....but, I just don't see risking it when we know that this boy was exposed all week long.
I feel like I'm doing the right thing on one hand.....and on the other I feel like I'm just allowing fear to dictate how I make decisions now?
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Trust your gut dude. Better safe than sorry.
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Trust your gut dude. Better safe than sorry.
This is what I am thinking.
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Trust your gut dude. Better safe than sorry.
Definitely. If you’re not comfortable with your youngest going that’s fine. I don’t even consider it as cow towing to fear. I mean COVID or no COVID, you wouldn’t let him play with kids that were sick anyway.
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So I'm being forced to be the 'bad guy' today....here's the story.
We have friends who the wife is throwing her husband a surprise 40th party today. She finds out yesterday that her youngest who was at a camp all last week was in a group with a kid who tested positive for Corona. They haven't tested their son...but, I told my wife that I wasn't letting our youngest go to the party since he, that boy and all of his cousins would most likely just be together all night. I'm not going to go either.
Thing is she volunteered with her sister to get the house ready for the surprise while the mom has their family out for them to come home to the surprise. I just said me and my youngest aren't going. My other two sons were already not going to go....but, I just don't see risking it when we know that this boy was exposed all week long.
I feel like I'm doing the right thing on one hand.....and on the other I feel like I'm just allowing fear to dictate how I make decisions now?
Nah man. You're being a dad. I hope at the very least your wife masks up.
I'm back to wearing a mask in public just in case. At least for a little while until we get a bit more data on what this variant is doing.
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Yeah, I'm back to masking at both jobs and all my 12 step meetings. Really hope they don't shut those down again, a year of zoom meetings can go fuck itself, that shit sucked.
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Yeah, I'm back to masking at both jobs and all my 12 step meetings. Really hope they don't shut those down again, a year of zoom meetings can go fuck itself, that shit sucked.
I see no reason why something like an AA meeting could be relocated to a gymnasium or something where everyone could sit like 20' apart while masked up.
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Yeah, I'm back to masking at both jobs and all my 12 step meetings. Really hope they don't shut those down again, a year of zoom meetings can go fuck itself, that shit sucked.
I see no reason why something like an AA meeting could be relocated to a gymnasium or something where everyone could sit like 20' apart while masked up.
That's more a matter of who will host an aa meeting. Most people won't, that's why we're usually in churches, they're more willing to help and need the extra coin from our rent.
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I probably wouldn't go to that party either. But I am also not a fan of adult birthday parties. If it was a kid party, it would be a much harder decision, as those are meaningful memories and important events for a kid.
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I probably wouldn't go to that party either. But I am also not a fan of adult birthday parties. If it was a kid party, it would be a much harder decision, as those are meaningful memories and important events for a kid.
Ditto on all points, but especially the bolded. Plus, do you absolutely 100% know all of the adults are 2-weeks post double vax? That would be something I'd be just as concerned about to tell you the truth.
FWIW, masking indoors when out in public is still largely mandated here - and we're way past pretty much everywhere in the US when it comes to vaccination rates. As I said, I fully expect to be masking indoors in public at least until the spring.
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So I'm being forced to be the 'bad guy' today....here's the story.
We have friends who the wife is throwing her husband a surprise 40th party today. She finds out yesterday that her youngest who was at a camp all last week was in a group with a kid who tested positive for Corona. They haven't tested their son...but, I told my wife that I wasn't letting our youngest go to the party since he, that boy and all of his cousins would most likely just be together all night. I'm not going to go either.
Thing is she volunteered with her sister to get the house ready for the surprise while the mom has their family out for them to come home to the surprise. I just said me and my youngest aren't going. My other two sons were already not going to go....but, I just don't see risking it when we know that this boy was exposed all week long.
I feel like I'm doing the right thing on one hand.....and on the other I feel like I'm just allowing fear to dictate how I make decisions now?
This is just one of many decisions you will have to make being a parent and married.
This decision is one you and your wife should make together. For the main concern of your son that one of you has. If she wants to go, what she could do is mask up.
The issue to is that the data is showing that vaccinated people can still spread the delta variant. That's why the CDC says for vaccinated people to mask up indoors and the reason for possible mask mandates again.
The best solution would be just to not go. But, I can't give you anything more, nor tell you what choice you should make.
I just hope that your decision turns out for the best, and that you and your family are all good.
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Ugghh! We broke our previous daily record...which was at the peak of the insanity. 21K new cases. This Delta variant is powerful stuff.
https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-health-business-arts-and-entertainment-florida-01fa89e1d9491ab075c5deb689af1ea8?fbclid=IwAR3VWn9lLsphCzlcx2qGRRodYY9zkRYrG1TFI9euXkUqB55GmRZp4bp16d4
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Just fucking crazy...122k new cases yesterday in the US...well on our way to another solid spike, and a lot of unnecessary deaths to go with it.
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We should all purposefully contract this damn thing, then, assuming we can't get it again, just be done with it. (not totally serious, but it did cross my mind...)
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Ugghh! We broke our previous daily record...which was at the peak of the insanity. 21K new cases. This Delta variant is powerful stuff.
https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-health-business-arts-and-entertainment-florida-01fa89e1d9491ab075c5deb689af1ea8?fbclid=IwAR3VWn9lLsphCzlcx2qGRRodYY9zkRYrG1TFI9euXkUqB55GmRZp4bp16d4
Just sayin ...
Just have to keep an eye on that Delta variant. That fucker can/will spread like a Californian wildfire.
A mere 6 weeks ago, there was a lot of 'nothing to worry aboutism'... even here on DTF. :-\ I personally don't think there's any coincidence that it's 4 weeks post July 4th celebrations, and dropping mask mandates.
Now, I'm not totally fear-mongering, because I do firmly believe the vaccine is doing it's job. Cases should no longer be the primary measurement of how bad things are... though it's the best LEADING indicator we've got. The more important outcomes we're all trying to avoid/reduce is hospitalizations/ICU/fatality. Nobody really cares how many people contract the flu, or get charged with DUI in a given time period, but the fatality statistics (used to) make the news.
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Except no one seems to be noting that while cases are rising, the deaths are not rising in a linear manner. This source (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html) has deaths (as a percentage) rising at only half the rate as cases and hospitalizations at about 2/3 the rate. And that's just one week, and not necessarily indicative of long term trends.
The message is so mixed it's not funny. I'm on top of this, I understand it and I have a (reasonably) open mind about the data and it's a struggle. I can only imagine if you're at a more polarized point on the continuum. There is PLENTY of data to support any of the more extreme positions, and PLENTY of data to be ignored when doing so.
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The message is so mixed it's not funny. I'm on top of this, I understand it and I have a (reasonably) open mind about the data and it's a struggle. I can only imagine if you're at a more polarized point on the continuum. There is PLENTY of data to support any of the more extreme positions, and PLENTY of data to be ignored when doing so.
Totally.
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We should all purposefully contract this damn thing, then, assuming we can't get it again, just be done with it. (not totally serious, but it did cross my mind...)
For those who are unvaccinated, many ID and PH docs are saying you WILL get it.
“If you have not been vaccinated, and you have not had COVID before, you will get the delta variant,” Giroir argued. “This is so infectious that you will get it.”
Brett Giroir - fmr Trump Covid testing czar
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/565595-former-trump-official-says-just-a-matter-of-time-before-unvaccinated-get
Also in this same article:
He went on to say that while a previous COVID-19 infection may give some natural immunity, it is not clear how long this protection lasts, adding, “The evidence is mounting that even natural immunity will not protect you against delta.”
And while it may seem like a good idea to 'purposefully contract this' disease, I'd spend some time talking to folks who have survived about their experiences in the hospital and/or some long haulers. Rolling the dice on this one wouldn't be the way I'd choose to go. Why not just get the jab?
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Here's a pic from this past weekends LaLaPalooza in Chicago. I'm sure Corona was too busy to take in a concert though.
(https://i.imgur.com/rV00KKH.jpg)
Oh and Obama is throwing a 500+ head 60th birthday party for himself in Martha's Vineyard with the Clooney's, Oprah's and Spielberg's of the world but I'm sure it's fine for them to pretend Covid is over....the rest of us should be more careful though?
My larger point is that it's pretty clear that America has decided Covid is no longer a thing and Covid needs to understand that. I used those two examples because 'the media' has been portraying the Red States and knuckle dragging republicans as the reason the Delta variant was allowed to circulate. When the truth is everyone has pretty much decided to say F it and go on with their lives.
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Lot's of those people got there via train as well:
(https://preview.redd.it/7lzdl2rtdpe71.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=16f4b0652656253b775e51de819044d805f9f369)
Nope. No thank you.
Oh and Obama is throwing a 500+ head 60th birthday party for himself in Martha's Vineyard with the Clooney's, Oprah's and Spielberg's of the world but I'm sure it's fine for them to pretend Covid is over....the rest of us should be more careful though?
Eh. Not exactly pretending it's over. You need to pass a test the day of to be allowed on the grounds, and there will be enforcement officials there making sure everything is in within CDC compliance. Not saying I agree with him having the party, but it's not like they're pretending Covid went away. That to me constitutes being careful, as opposed to something like LaLaPalooza.
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Agreed. There’s a difference between careful, and careless. Getting on a train like that unmasked is careless. A limited (by Obama standards) outdoor gathering enforcing physical distancing, vaccination (I’m assuming), and a negative tests sounds like being careful.
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Eh. Not exactly pretending it's over. You need to pass a test the day of to be allowed on the grounds, and there will be enforcement officials there making sure everything is in within CDC compliance. Not saying I agree with him having the party, but it's not like they're pretending Covid went away. That to me constitutes being careful, as opposed to something like LaLaPalooza.
Agreed. There’s a difference between careful, and careless. Getting on a train like that unmasked is careless. A limited (by Obama standards) outdoor gathering enforcing physical distancing, vaccination (I’m assuming), and a negative tests sounds like being careful.
I get it...I do. I just wonder what the headline would read were say.....DeSantis or Trump throw a similar event with similar precautions in place. I'd bet my bottom dollar it wouldn't be as accepted as obama's little shin dig is.
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WELL OBVIOUSLY!!!
:rollin
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That train picture gives me the shivers.
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That train picture gives me the shivers.
I’m sure the BART looks just like that.
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My larger point is that it's pretty clear that America has decided Covid is no longer a thing and Covid needs to understand that. I used those two examples because 'the media' has been portraying the Red States and knuckle dragging republicans as the reason the Delta variant was allowed to circulate. When the truth is everyone has pretty much decided to say F it and go on with their lives.
To be fair, in order to enter Lollapalooza, you had to pass through three checkpoints. Each checkpoint verified that you had your original vaccine card, or a photo of it. If you were not vaccinated, you had to show proof of a negative covid test, either taken on-site or at two locations close to the festival grounds. 600 people were turned back and denied entry on the first day because they did not have that documentation and thought that they could just do whatever the hell they want.
Most people attending Lollapalooza won't be a strain on the hospitals - to me, that's the overarching message. Vaccinated people can still spread the variant and catch covid, but they aren't going to add to the numbers in the hospital, which is the problem the country is having right now. Not that life is gong back to normal, but the unvaccinated are still causing strain on hospitals and allowing for virus mutations to persist.
I'd expect the festival to be a bit of a super-spreader event, but it might also show that case numbers can go up, but hospital numbers may not, so the idea of having big events for vaccinated people only actually works.
I take those same exact trains into Chicago for work and the only reason that they were that full is because of the festival. Only large-scale events (Cubs/Blackhawks victory parades or festivals) get the trains that packed, especially within the last year.
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Eh. Not exactly pretending it's over. You need to pass a test the day of to be allowed on the grounds, and there will be enforcement officials there making sure everything is in within CDC compliance. Not saying I agree with him having the party, but it's not like they're pretending Covid went away. That to me constitutes being careful, as opposed to something like LaLaPalooza.
Agreed. There’s a difference between careful, and careless. Getting on a train like that unmasked is careless. A limited (by Obama standards) outdoor gathering enforcing physical distancing, vaccination (I’m assuming), and a negative tests sounds like being careful.
I get it...I do. I just wonder what the headline would read were say.....DeSantis or Trump throw a similar event with similar precautions in place. I'd bet my bottom dollar it wouldn't be as accepted as obama's little shin dig is.
I didn't even know it was happening until you mentioned it :lol
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Also, per the federal mandate, masks are still required on the trains. But with that many people, it's impossible for conductors to police it. On a daily, commuter, basis 99% of the people still wear masks.
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Considering what I saw on social media, plenty of people were just breaking into that festival :lol
Generally I'd say outdoor events like that haven't proved to be much of an issue, but I'm not really certain that's the case with delta for me to confidently say that anymore.
As for the crowded train, I question how effective masks would even be in that situation considering how tightly packed that is and airflow is likely extremely poor already. Probably better to still wear one regardless, but if you are going to Lollapalooza, you've basically accepted the risk already.
I'll be going to Guns N Roses on Thursday in a packed stadium (well, it's not close to sold out, but still like 30k people).
We should all purposefully contract this damn thing, then, assuming we can't get it again, just be done with it. (not totally serious, but it did cross my mind...)
The problem is the ~1% that would die from doing this and the overload of the hospitals, but in the end, this is essentially what will happen just spread out over time. Everyone in this world is going to get exposed to covid. I feel at this point, it's not about not getting an infection, it's about getting vaccinated so you don't die from the infection and don't overload hospitals. It's proven to work for that. I feel we will be living in a world of constant covid exposure and I believe that's why the US is basically acting like covid is not a thing anymore. We have to move on at some point. We can argue if that point is now or not, but with a proven vaccine readily available, why should we wait any longer to move on?
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Here's a pic from this past weekends LaLaPalooza in Chicago. I'm sure Corona was too busy to take in a concert though.
(https://i.imgur.com/rV00KKH.jpg)
That looks like one of those pictures you squint at and you see a stereo image. Like the cover of that Dave Matthews record. :)
Oh and Obama is throwing a 500+ head 60th birthday party for himself in Martha's Vineyard with the Clooney's, Oprah's and Spielberg's of the world but I'm sure it's fine for them to pretend Covid is over....the rest of us should be more careful though?
My larger point is that it's pretty clear that America has decided Covid is no longer a thing and Covid needs to understand that. I used those two examples because 'the media' has been portraying the Red States and knuckle dragging republicans as the reason the Delta variant was allowed to circulate. When the truth is everyone has pretty much decided to say F it and go on with their lives.
Something I've been saying in a roundabout way for a while. But narratives persevere.
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Our Florida region (14 facilities) are at 106% of ICU capacity and 117% of total capacity. So what was initially feared at the onset of this nightmare has come to fruition in FL.
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That train picture gives me the shivers.
I’m sure the BART looks just like that.
Not sure it's there yet, ridership is still brutally low, they haven't even opened to a full schedule yet. Gotta remember, a massive percentage of their riders are tech nerds who will be working from home for some time to come.
In related news, bay area health officials gonna make an announcement at noon... Here come the mask mandates....
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That train picture gives me the shivers.
I’m sure the BART looks just like that.
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_949_1330718869.jpg)
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Our Florida region (14 facilities) are at 106% of ICU capacity and 117% of total capacity. So what was initially feared at the onset of this nightmare has come to fruition in FL.
Meanwhile, https://miami.cbslocal.com/2021/07/30/ron-desantis-no-school-mask-mandates-protecting-parental-rights/
:facepalm:
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Here's hoping he freedoms himself right out of a job.
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Lindsay Graham, fully vaccinated, tests positive and is symptomatic. Holy fuck... How many days since he was in the senate? Is there a chance they had their own spreader event there? Fucking delta is no joke.
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I feel as though the tide is turning where the unvaccinated are starting to rethink their choices. Unfortunately, someone has to be personally affected before they take action. At least Graham admits that he was vaccinated and would have been sicker had it not been for the vaccine.
Hopefully this spurs more action out of the unvaccinated to get vaccinated.
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I feel as though the tide is turning where the unvaccinated are starting to rethink their choices. Unfortunately, someone has to be personally affected before they take action. At least Graham admits that he was vaccinated and would have been sicker had it not been for the vaccine.
Hopefully this spurs more action out of the unvaccinated to get vaccinated.
The daily vaccination rate is going up in the US. As much as it sucks for this to be the reason, at least some people are starting to pay attention.
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Eh. Not exactly pretending it's over. You need to pass a test the day of to be allowed on the grounds, and there will be enforcement officials there making sure everything is in within CDC compliance. Not saying I agree with him having the party, but it's not like they're pretending Covid went away. That to me constitutes being careful, as opposed to something like LaLaPalooza.
Agreed. There’s a difference between careful, and careless. Getting on a train like that unmasked is careless. A limited (by Obama standards) outdoor gathering enforcing physical distancing, vaccination (I’m assuming), and a negative tests sounds like being careful.
I get it...I do. I just wonder what the headline would read were say.....DeSantis or Trump throw a similar event with similar precautions in place. I'd bet my bottom dollar it wouldn't be as accepted as obama's little shin dig is.
You are correct, they would be raked over the coals. But we have ample evidence that Obama is at least trying to do it responsibly while we know that the other guys would throw caution to the wind. And deSantis would prolly sign a Governors decree banning masks at the party. :facepalm:
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Yeah, Obama's event required proof of vaccination and a recent negative covid test, whereas a Trump event would barely require a heartbeat.
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Yeah, Obama's event required proof of vaccination and a recent negative covid test, whereas a Trump event would barely require a heartbeat.
...and a checkbook.
No doubt Obama is taking donations for something as well..
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Yeah, Obama's event required proof of vaccination and a recent negative covid test, whereas a Trump event would barely require a heartbeat.
...and a checkbook.
No doubt Obama is taking donations for something as well..
That's one thing both sides have in common...there's always an entrance fee.
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Eh. Not exactly pretending it's over. You need to pass a test the day of to be allowed on the grounds, and there will be enforcement officials there making sure everything is in within CDC compliance. Not saying I agree with him having the party, but it's not like they're pretending Covid went away. That to me constitutes being careful, as opposed to something like LaLaPalooza.
Agreed. There’s a difference between careful, and careless. Getting on a train like that unmasked is careless. A limited (by Obama standards) outdoor gathering enforcing physical distancing, vaccination (I’m assuming), and a negative tests sounds like being careful.
I get it...I do. I just wonder what the headline would read were say.....DeSantis or Trump throw a similar event with similar precautions in place. I'd bet my bottom dollar it wouldn't be as accepted as obama's little shin dig is.
You are correct, they would be raked over the coals. But we have ample evidence that Obama is at least trying to do it responsibly while we know that the other guys would throw caution to the wind. And deSantis would prolly sign a Governors decree banning masks at the party. :facepalm:
And yet, let's not forget the HARD DATA - the SCIENCE - that shows that up until the recent surge, the data in Florida was consistent with other regions that had much tighter "restrictions", like California. Let's not also forget the NY Times - the NY TIMES, not Fox, not CNN - article I posted earlier this week that CLEARLY showed - with hard data, with SCIENCE - that some of the "expected" relationships don't exist like the narrative assumes. This surge in Florida is no more an indictment of DeSantis (who I am not really a fan of, by the way; my parents and brother live in Florida) than previous surges were indictments of Cuomo, Newsome, or Lamont (our Democrat governor, who in my estimation is doing a PHENOMENAL job as governor of CT, and has my vote as long as he wants the job).
This idea that the virus follows political lines is embarrassing from people that claim to "believe in science" (I am not referring, directly or indirectly, to any particular person, here or elsewhere; it's just a blanket statement).
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Let's see how DeSantis fares after schools reopen and children start going into the hospital. Threatening to withhold funding to districts who are trying to do what is right for their communities is an interesting tactic. I guess time will tell. I hope children won't be made to pay the price but I suspect they will.
https://www.fox13news.com/news/two-florida-school-districts-drop-mask-mandates-after-desantis-threatened-to-withhold-funding
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I dread the thought of another mutation that becomes more deadly to that demographic.
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Let's see how DeSantis fares after schools reopen and children start going into the hospital. Threatening to withhold funding to districts who are trying to do what is right for their communities is an interesting tactic. I guess time will tell. I hope children won't be made to pay the price but I suspect they will.
https://www.fox13news.com/news/two-florida-school-districts-drop-mask-mandates-after-desantis-threatened-to-withhold-funding
Our children are already paying the price. This pandemic has affected them the most of all. What they once knew is not what the new children will come to understand. Their perceptions are changing and kids are more susceptible to information so will therefore be easier to accustomed to the changes.
Some of these kids are facing social and mental anxiety because they are not allowed to see anyone. Children need to develop these social skills and need face to face and physical contact for assurance.
I mean just because a child isnt physically paying the price. Mentally they are.
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I just found out that a friend of ours step-mom just died of COVID. She was vaccinated but I guess it was a break through case as it attacked her organs (according to his wife). I haven't really tried to get details but he was very close to her. :(
At least she tried to do the right thing. And I am reading more and more about regretting not getting the vaccine soon enough. BTW, that same couple lost a good friend to to COVID last year.
I 100% agree to your last post Lonestar........
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Let's see how DeSantis fares after schools reopen and children start going into the hospital. Threatening to withhold funding to districts who are trying to do what is right for their communities is an interesting tactic. I guess time will tell. I hope children won't be made to pay the price but I suspect they will.
https://www.fox13news.com/news/two-florida-school-districts-drop-mask-mandates-after-desantis-threatened-to-withhold-funding
And that's fair; I'm not sticking up for DeSantis. As I said, I'm not a fan for non-COVID reasons. But one thing we've seen over the last 18 months is that almost* every "cause" that leads to an "effect" has also NOT led to that effect. I'm pushing back on the anecdotal. We've had the same relaxation of restrictions, more or less, here in Connecticut and have NOT seen the surge. Granted, Florida - with their reliance on the travel industry and the transient nature of many of their residents - have a different dynamic, but they are in the top-half of States when it comes to vaccinations (49.1% of their pop), not that far behind California (53.1%) (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=vaccination+rate+by+state&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8). Compare that to the top five states, all New England states, that have a vaccination rate in excess of 60%. (One potential problem: it's two neighboring states are both in the bottom seven in terms of vaccinations, including Alabama, who is dead last.)
* Vaccines and vaccinations seem to be the one exception.
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Let's see how DeSantis fares after schools reopen and children start going into the hospital. Threatening to withhold funding to districts who are trying to do what is right for their communities is an interesting tactic. I guess time will tell. I hope children won't be made to pay the price but I suspect they will.
https://www.fox13news.com/news/two-florida-school-districts-drop-mask-mandates-after-desantis-threatened-to-withhold-funding
Our children are already paying the price. This pandemic has affected them the most of all. What they once knew is not what the new children will come to understand. Their perceptions are changing and kids are more susceptible to information so will therefore be easier to accustomed to the changes.
Some of these kids are facing social and mental anxiety because they are not allowed to see anyone. Children need to develop these social skills and need face to face and physical contact for assurance.
I mean just because a child isnt physically paying the price. Mentally they are.
And nowhere in my post did I suggest children should not be in school or are not paying a price.
I believe kids need to be in school. I also believe that doing everything possible to protect them in those environments is important. Masks, proper ventilation, social distancing, contact tracing if there is an outbreak, among other things to mitigate risk to staff and children. Especially when the infectivity rates in a particular area are exceedingly high.
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I've seen some people suggest purposely exposing children to the virus to get natural immunity similar to how parents will do so for their kids with chicken pox. I'm not a parent, I don't know how I feel about that idea nor have an opinion. I'd generally lean towards just get vaccinated but until that's deemed safe, I'm not really sure forcing an infection is a good idea either.
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I've seen some people suggest purposely exposing children to the virus to get natural immunity similar to how parents will do so for their kids with chicken pox. I'm not a parent, I don't know how I feel about that idea nor have an opinion. I'd generally lean towards just get vaccinated but until that's deemed safe, I'm not really sure forcing an infection is a good idea either.
It's dumb. I don't know how parents can even entertain a thought like that, with any illness. I've seen how miserable my kids are when they have a bad cold. My heart breaks when they get a stomach bug and they're throwing up. It's the one time I truly feel helpless as a parent - they're too young for cold medicine and I can't do anything about their illness, other than turn on a humidifier and give them some children's tylenol or ibuprofin.
To purposely expose them to any illness is just stupid. If it were just my wife and I at home, I'd say to hell with the masks, since we're vaccinated, but since we have a 3 and 6 year old, we're still trying hard to not bring anything home.
My six year old really wants to be vaccinated for COVID, so as soon as they say that's ok, we'll schedule an appointment for her.
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Our kid's in daycare because it's not possible for us to take care of him while working from home. I struggle mightily with the idea that maybe we made the wrong choice - one of us should quit our jobs to take care of him and protect him from COVID. But also, at least thus far this thing doesn't seem to be particularly bad when it gets to kids, and since our son pretty much lives with at least minor congestion and respitory symptoms on an ongoing basis, he already has a nebulizer and treatment that can help with that. So I'm not too worried. But also scared as hell. :-\
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I've seen some people suggest purposely exposing children to the virus to get natural immunity similar to how parents will do so for their kids with chicken pox. I'm not a parent, I don't know how I feel about that idea nor have an opinion. I'd generally lean towards just get vaccinated but until that's deemed safe, I'm not really sure forcing an infection is a good idea either.
To purposely expose them to any illness is just stupid.
Not arguing because I'm not really for this with covid, but are you also against doing this for chicken pox? That's generally been seen to be effective and safe. I don't recall if I was purposely exposed, I'd have to ask my parents.
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I've seen some people suggest purposely exposing children to the virus to get natural immunity similar to how parents will do so for their kids with chicken pox. I'm not a parent, I don't know how I feel about that idea nor have an opinion. I'd generally lean towards just get vaccinated but until that's deemed safe, I'm not really sure forcing an infection is a good idea either.
To purposely expose them to any illness is just stupid.
Not arguing because I'm not really for this with covid, but are you also against doing this for chicken pox? That's generally been seen to be effective and safe. I don't recall if I was purposely exposed, I'd have to ask my parents.
Yes, I feel the same way about chicken pox. I had chicken pox when I was in first grade and I remember it sucked and my mom covered me in calamine lotion for a few days. There's a vaccine for chicken pox now and my kids get it automatically as part of their pediatrician's vaccine schedule. Plus, if you've had the chicken pox, then you can get shingles later on as an adult, which isn't fun either.
Chicken Pox parties are one of the most moronic things a parent can do - let's purposely expose our kids to a shitty illness because we're anti-vaxxers. :facepalm:
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I didn't even know there was a vax for chicken pox.
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I've seen some people suggest purposely exposing children to the virus to get natural immunity similar to how parents will do so for their kids with chicken pox. I'm not a parent, I don't know how I feel about that idea nor have an opinion. I'd generally lean towards just get vaccinated but until that's deemed safe, I'm not really sure forcing an infection is a good idea either.
To purposely expose them to any illness is just stupid.
Not arguing because I'm not really for this with covid, but are you also against doing this for chicken pox? That's generally been seen to be effective and safe. I don't recall if I was purposely exposed, I'd have to ask my parents.
Yes, I feel the same way about chicken pox. I had chicken pox when I was in first grade and I remember it sucked and my mom covered me in calamine lotion for a few days. There's a vaccine for chicken pox now and my kids get it automatically as part of their pediatrician's vaccine schedule. Plus, if you've had the chicken pox, then you can get shingles later on as an adult, which isn't fun either.
Chicken Pox parties are one of the most moronic things a parent can do - let's purposely expose our kids to a shitty illness because we're anti-vaxxers. :facepalm:
I actually got shingles when I was 7. I still have scars from that. Where the Shingles scars are is a little numb. I got it on my chest by my heart and on the parallel area on my back.
It sucked because I couldn't touch it, and being a kid I would touch it. It was worse when I would sleep. I would leave my chest open and sleep on my back. I think my parents put some ointment on it the doctor prescribed, which soothed the burning. It would mainly burn and be untolerable when the blisters would pop and ooze the pus.
The long term effects of it is that I have those numb areas around the scars.
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I feel as though the tide is turning where the unvaccinated are starting to rethink their choices. Unfortunately, someone has to be personally affected before they take action. At least Graham admits that he was vaccinated and would have been sicker had it not been for the vaccine.
Hopefully this spurs more action out of the unvaccinated to get vaccinated.
Yeah, read an article about this in a swedish newspaper.
They interwiewed vaccinateurs who said that people want to be anonymous when taking the vaccine, even dressing up as someone else....
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I've seen some people suggest purposely exposing children to the virus to get natural immunity similar to how parents will do so for their kids with chicken pox. I'm not a parent, I don't know how I feel about that idea nor have an opinion. I'd generally lean towards just get vaccinated but until that's deemed safe, I'm not really sure forcing an infection is a good idea either.
It's dumb. I don't know how parents can even entertain a thought like that, with any illness. I've seen how miserable my kids are when they have a bad cold. My heart breaks when they get a stomach bug and they're throwing up. It's the one time I truly feel helpless as a parent - they're too young for cold medicine and I can't do anything about their illness, other than turn on a humidifier and give them some children's tylenol or ibuprofin.
To purposely expose them to any illness is just stupid. If it were just my wife and I at home, I'd say to hell with the masks, since we're vaccinated, but since we have a 3 and 6 year old, we're still trying hard to not bring anything home.
My six year old really wants to be vaccinated for COVID, so as soon as they say that's ok, we'll schedule an appointment for her.
I'm not suggesting that it's okay for COVID, or any specific disease, but systematic exposure to toxics and irritants may have lasting immune system benefits (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2012.10294).
Though you are right; there is nothing quite so helpless as the feeling of watching a young child struggle with congestion or pain that they don't know how to deal with.
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Has anyone seen this...
Since I am unable to comply with what is increasingly becoming an industry mandate - it has recently been decided that I am unsafe to be around, in the studio, and on tour," says Parada. "I mention this because you won€™t be seeing me at these upcoming shows."
"I have no negative feelings towards my band. They're doing what they believe is best for them, while I am doing the same," Parada clarifies.
He then declares "Unequivocally...that I support informed consent - which necessitates choice unburdened by coercion." He adds that he doesn't believe in allowing "those with the most power (government, corporations, organizations, employers) to dictate medical procedures to those with the least power."
Parada asks that people not "dominate, dehumanize and shout down at each other," noting that the vaccine-hesitant population "is not a monolithic group. All voices deserve to be heard."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/music/news/offspring-drummer-cant-get-covid-19-vaccine-for-medical-reasons-so-wont-play-at-upcoming-shows/ar-AAMTqa3?fbclid=IwAR0-R-83PTiqPXKRVQ23XDkLISY-rau-VuJhjH0EiLJx14AMzFATwQgGVDU
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I feel as though the tide is turning where the unvaccinated are starting to rethink their choices. Unfortunately, someone has to be personally affected before they take action. At least Graham admits that he was vaccinated and would have been sicker had it not been for the vaccine.
Hopefully this spurs more action out of the unvaccinated to get vaccinated.
Yeah, read an article about this in a swedish newspaper.
They interwiewed vaccinateurs who said that people want to be anonymous when taking the vaccine, even dressing up as someone else....
Yeah - that's a real thing here in Missouri. People don't want their spouses to know or other family members to know for fear of either divorce or ostracized from their families.
All I know is if I had a wife who threaten divorce because I am getting a vaccine - then that marriage is over anyway.
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Has anyone seen this...
Since I am unable to comply with what is increasingly becoming an industry mandate - it has recently been decided that I am unsafe to be around, in the studio, and on tour," says Parada. "I mention this because you won€™t be seeing me at these upcoming shows."
"I have no negative feelings towards my band. They're doing what they believe is best for them, while I am doing the same," Parada clarifies.
He then declares "Unequivocally...that I support informed consent - which necessitates choice unburdened by coercion." He adds that he doesn't believe in allowing "those with the most power (government, corporations, organizations, employers) to dictate medical procedures to those with the least power."
Parada asks that people not "dominate, dehumanize and shout down at each other," noting that the vaccine-hesitant population "is not a monolithic group. All voices deserve to be heard."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/music/news/offspring-drummer-cant-get-covid-19-vaccine-for-medical-reasons-so-wont-play-at-upcoming-shows/ar-AAMTqa3?fbclid=IwAR0-R-83PTiqPXKRVQ23XDkLISY-rau-VuJhjH0EiLJx14AMzFATwQgGVDU
yes and I don't see the issue, Offspring are supposed to tour Europe and he won't be allowed there. Certain states like NY will now require a vaccine to go to a concert. So if he can't tour, then he needs to be replaced until he is allowed to. It just sucks for him because his reasoning is a valid medical issue, not hesitancy.
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I'm not suggesting that it's okay for COVID, or any specific disease, but systematic exposure to toxics and irritants may have lasting immune system benefits (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2012.10294).
Though you are right; there is nothing quite so helpless as the feeling of watching a young child struggle with congestion or pain that they don't know how to deal with.
My daughter was in daycare from 3 months to 2.5 years of age. One February, she was sick for an entire month straight. Every week it was a different ailment or two.
- Strep throat
- Pink Eye
- Stomach Bug
- Pink Eye (again)
- Cold
She had tubes put into her eardrums because she probably had 8-10 ear infections from contracting colds. My wife stayed home with my son, so he's had considerably less exposure to illness, but it's not like he's NEVER been sick. When she brings home a bug from school or a birthday party, it runs through the house and everyone gets it (I got the stomach flu from her the same week I broke my ankle. Imagine trying to race up and down stairs to a bathroom when you're in a walking boot and can't move quickly).
If kids get exposed to illness in their daily routine, so be it. We can't keep them in a bubble. But holding a chicken pox/COVID party and purposely exposing your kids to a germ for natural immunity is 100% wrong.
I have no desire to watch my kids struggle to breathe if they get a bad case of COVID (this new variant is reportedly more severe in kids than the original strain). If it happens, it happens, but I'm not giving it to them on purpose.
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Has anyone seen this...
Since I am unable to comply with what is increasingly becoming an industry mandate - it has recently been decided that I am unsafe to be around, in the studio, and on tour," says Parada. "I mention this because you won€™t be seeing me at these upcoming shows."
"I have no negative feelings towards my band. They're doing what they believe is best for them, while I am doing the same," Parada clarifies.
He then declares "Unequivocally...that I support informed consent - which necessitates choice unburdened by coercion." He adds that he doesn't believe in allowing "those with the most power (government, corporations, organizations, employers) to dictate medical procedures to those with the least power."
Parada asks that people not "dominate, dehumanize and shout down at each other," noting that the vaccine-hesitant population "is not a monolithic group. All voices deserve to be heard."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/music/news/offspring-drummer-cant-get-covid-19-vaccine-for-medical-reasons-so-wont-play-at-upcoming-shows/ar-AAMTqa3?fbclid=IwAR0-R-83PTiqPXKRVQ23XDkLISY-rau-VuJhjH0EiLJx14AMzFATwQgGVDU
yes and I don't see the issue, Offspring are supposed to tour Europe and he won't be allowed there. Certain states like NY will now require a vaccine to go to a concert. So if he can't tour, then he needs to be replaced until he is allowed to. It just sucks for him because his reasoning is a valid medical issue, not hesitancy.
He's pretty much out of the band, he can not be around them in the studio, because he is not vaccinated, and can not be due to medical reasons. This is because the industry determined that he is unsafe because he isn't vaccinated. They mandated that all people must be vaccinated regardless. If they did not mandate that policy, he would still be able to be in the studio with them. He only put this out there to explain why he won't be on those shows in case people do wonder why another guy is playing drums.
What he is saying too, is that he doesn't see how these entities can dictate you have a medical procedure required before doing business with them. Which, if so, he won't be able to go if they demand him to have a vaccination card or passport.
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At some point I'd love to see a checklist or spreadsheet created on "issues" and have people fill it out just to see how consistent people are - or are not - on certain core beliefs. In particular with the medical reasoning, I don't see this any differently than any other medical/health/genetic condition that we - the rest of society - have to accommodate in the interest of being "tolerant". Why is Parada not a hero and Simone Biles is?
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Well, in Parada's case they just wanted to keep em separated.
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While I wouldn't call Parada a hero, I do think he's pretty fly...
....for a white guy.
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While I wouldn't call Parada a hero, I do think he's pretty fly...
....for a drum guy.
FTFY
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So Delta Plus is a thing now. Even more contagious than Delta. First cases in South Korea.
I will admit, the jokes on Twitter are quite humorous, considering. I think we are all breaking.
Maybe the rapture is upon us.
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Well, in Parada's case they just wanted to keep em separated.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/df0ae522b1c9de0d68b564b0bcb9a4d9/tenor.gif?itemid=9154215)
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If any of you gents need another reason to get vaccinated:
(https://i.imgur.com/y2WEp1K.jpg)
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Love the color choices... :rollin
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So Delta Plus is a thing now. Even more contagious than Delta. First cases in South Korea.
I will admit, the jokes on Twitter are quite humorous, considering. I think we are all breaking.
Maybe the rapture is upon us.
Delta plus? Do we get more leg room with that? :lol
If any of you gents need another reason to get vaccinated:
(https://i.imgur.com/y2WEp1K.jpg)
Great graphic. I actually just read something that IMO is much more worrisome impacting another area of the body.
Researchers had brain scans from over 700 patients, which were done before the pandemic. They did second MRI’s around three years after the first scan. 394 patients between 59 and 63 years old got the virus between the two scan. Those who recovered from COVID-19 had more brain atrophy or shrinkage in parts of the brain that control taste, smell, and memory. Most of those COVID cases were mild.
https://www.khou.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/covid-19-causes-brain-damage-even-in-mild-cases/285-eec1cf1c-ee28-4601-8af2-df71252fd340
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Great graphic. I actually just read something that IMO is much more worrisome impacting another area of the body.
To men, our private parts may be more important than our brains :lol
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Great graphic. I actually just read something that IMO is much more worrisome impacting another area of the body.
To men, our private parts may be more important than our brains :lol
LoL - well aware of that. But I'm pretty sure the brain is a crucial part of sexual function, albeit probably a more primitive part. Atrophy in either region should be concerning? :lol
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It's 28%....Most men will beat the odds.
Also, I find it hilarious how those "social justice warriors" could utilize this graphic to showcase racism as the black penis is used for erectile dysfunction, while the white is not. Then I laugh harder because it also shows Black penis are hung more than the white penis which is still smaller erect. :rollin
I'm sorry but that graphic is more hilarious than threatening to instill fear and concern for erectile dysfunction.
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Governor signs law banning mask mandates. Now the Governor wants the law struck down so mask mandates can be instituted. :facepalm:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/arkansas-governor-asa-hutchinson-mask-mandate-covid-cases-142346775.html
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Work is requiring masks again starting tomorrow.
Deaths are starting to climb again in the US. Florida seems like how the NYC area was at the beginning of the pandemic with hospitals being full and turning people away and leading the nation in cases.
If only, just only, people would get their vaccines.... :facepalm:
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Work is requiring masks again starting tomorrow.
I went back to work yesterday for the first time in 12 days, and there was a note hanging on the timeclock that we were back in masks.
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Don't mean to constantly provide downer info but it's hell down here.
ICU capacity in our region jumped from 106% Monday to 120% as of this morning. We've lost 3 patients in 12 hours. All were elderly and unvaccinated. Every day gets worse.
Fun times.
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Don't mean to constantly provide downer info but it's hell down here.
ICU capacity in our region jumped from 106% Monday to 120% as of this morning. We've lost 3 patients in 12 hours. All were elderly and unvaccinated. Every day gets worse.
Fun times.
Can you explain how over capacity works and how that metric is derived? Is it based on number of rooms/beds? Hours of doctor availability? Etc
Not challenging you. Just curious.
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Has anyone seen this...
Since I am unable to comply with what is increasingly becoming an industry mandate - it has recently been decided that I am unsafe to be around, in the studio, and on tour," says Parada. "I mention this because you won€™t be seeing me at these upcoming shows."
"I have no negative feelings towards my band. They're doing what they believe is best for them, while I am doing the same," Parada clarifies.
He then declares "Unequivocally...that I support informed consent - which necessitates choice unburdened by coercion." He adds that he doesn't believe in allowing "those with the most power (government, corporations, organizations, employers) to dictate medical procedures to those with the least power."
Parada asks that people not "dominate, dehumanize and shout down at each other," noting that the vaccine-hesitant population "is not a monolithic group. All voices deserve to be heard."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/music/news/offspring-drummer-cant-get-covid-19-vaccine-for-medical-reasons-so-wont-play-at-upcoming-shows/ar-AAMTqa3?fbclid=IwAR0-R-83PTiqPXKRVQ23XDkLISY-rau-VuJhjH0EiLJx14AMzFATwQgGVDU
yes and I don't see the issue, Offspring are supposed to tour Europe and he won't be allowed there. Certain states like NY will now require a vaccine to go to a concert. So if he can't tour, then he needs to be replaced until he is allowed to. It just sucks for him because his reasoning is a valid medical issue, not hesitancy.
He's pretty much out of the band, he can not be around them in the studio, because he is not vaccinated, and can not be due to medical reasons. This is because the industry determined that he is unsafe because he isn't vaccinated. They mandated that all people must be vaccinated regardless. If they did not mandate that policy, he would still be able to be in the studio with them. He only put this out there to explain why he won't be on those shows in case people do wonder why another guy is playing drums.
What he is saying too, is that he doesn't see how these entities can dictate you have a medical procedure required before doing business with them. Which, if so, he won't be able to go if they demand him to have a vaccination card or passport.
In principle, I don't have an issue with businesses/industries limiting things to vaccinated people as long as people with medical exemptions are also allowed to access those services. I'm kind of surprised that some places aren't doing that, it's vaccine certificate or nothing, which completely excludes people who are unable to get the vaccine (rather than choosing not to).
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Has anyone seen this...
Since I am unable to comply with what is increasingly becoming an industry mandate - it has recently been decided that I am unsafe to be around, in the studio, and on tour," says Parada. "I mention this because you won€™t be seeing me at these upcoming shows."
"I have no negative feelings towards my band. They're doing what they believe is best for them, while I am doing the same," Parada clarifies.
He then declares "Unequivocally...that I support informed consent - which necessitates choice unburdened by coercion." He adds that he doesn't believe in allowing "those with the most power (government, corporations, organizations, employers) to dictate medical procedures to those with the least power."
Parada asks that people not "dominate, dehumanize and shout down at each other," noting that the vaccine-hesitant population "is not a monolithic group. All voices deserve to be heard."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/music/news/offspring-drummer-cant-get-covid-19-vaccine-for-medical-reasons-so-wont-play-at-upcoming-shows/ar-AAMTqa3?fbclid=IwAR0-R-83PTiqPXKRVQ23XDkLISY-rau-VuJhjH0EiLJx14AMzFATwQgGVDU
yes and I don't see the issue, Offspring are supposed to tour Europe and he won't be allowed there. Certain states like NY will now require a vaccine to go to a concert. So if he can't tour, then he needs to be replaced until he is allowed to. It just sucks for him because his reasoning is a valid medical issue, not hesitancy.
He's pretty much out of the band, he can not be around them in the studio, because he is not vaccinated, and can not be due to medical reasons. This is because the industry determined that he is unsafe because he isn't vaccinated. They mandated that all people must be vaccinated regardless. If they did not mandate that policy, he would still be able to be in the studio with them. He only put this out there to explain why he won't be on those shows in case people do wonder why another guy is playing drums.
What he is saying too, is that he doesn't see how these entities can dictate you have a medical procedure required before doing business with them. Which, if so, he won't be able to go if they demand him to have a vaccination card or passport.
In principle, I don't have an issue with businesses/industries limiting things to vaccinated people as long as people with medical exemptions are also allowed to access those services. I'm kind of surprised that some places aren't doing that, it's vaccine certificate or nothing, which completely excludes people who are unable to get the vaccine (rather than choosing not to).
It also excludes people who had a natural infection which so far seems to provide just as good of an antibody response as a vaccine.
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About Parada - I have a question. I haven't read the whole story but if his doctor has told him not to get the vaccine and can sign a waiver then how is that not enough? Herd immunity is what it takes to protect people like him. So those who just don't want to get the vaccine but could get it are the real problem here.
The thing about GB syndrome is that the mRNA vaccine is NOT contraindicated in this population. Covid disease in folks who have previously had GB is a huge concern, however.
Obviously people need to check with their doctor, which is why I asked the first question.
And cram brings up a good point. Natural immunity should be a consideration IF the antibodies are present. If Prada already had Covid, an antibody test should confirm this and show his level of protection.
Disclaimer: Some studies seem to suggest that protection from natural immunity wanes more quickly because of a lack of T cell and B cell response, so YMMV
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Local school board meeting in a very affluent bay area suburbgot shut down because of an anti mask protest following our multi County mask mandate. It should be noted, average income here is north of 250k,and home prices are in the multi millions... (also the local bowling alley won't follow the mandate :lol )
https://youtu.be/UBB0qu5IzUQ (https://youtu.be/UBB0qu5IzUQ)
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RIGHT! Into the sun cannon with the lot of you. Come along now.
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Disclaimer: Some studies seem to suggest that protection from natural immunity wanes more quickly because of a lack of T cell and B cell response, so YMMV
I've read some sources that say natural infection gives better protection and some that say less. I've got no clue and it seems like no one really does either as to how much protection you truly have, but it does seem like you do have some level of protection which should be taken into account.
Also, I believe if you get covid, you aren't eligible for a vaccine for another 3 months. That's a decent chunk of time where you may not be eligible to do things while having some natural immunity which doesn't seem fair. But then again, if you get covid right now and aren't vaccinated, you have no one to blame but yourself so maybe "fair" gets thrown out the window.
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Don't mean to constantly provide downer info but it's hell down here.
ICU capacity in our region jumped from 106% Monday to 120% as of this morning. We've lost 3 patients in 12 hours. All were elderly and unvaccinated. Every day gets worse.
Fun times.
Can you explain how over capacity works and how that metric is derived? Is it based on number of rooms/beds? Hours of doctor availability? Etc
Not challenging you. Just curious.
Yes, sir, no problem. Basically it means we have to be creative and find ways/rooms to treat ICU level patients because all the ICU rooms are full. So, there are about 120 patients requiring ICU beds and levels of care, but they are no ICU rooms left. Docs and nursing staff are doing their best to treat these patients but we are stretched beyond our limits. Everyone is giving more than 100%.. After 4 surges, this one being the worst so far, it's taking a mental and physical toll.
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Don't mean to constantly provide downer info but it's hell down here.
ICU capacity in our region jumped from 106% Monday to 120% as of this morning. We've lost 3 patients in 12 hours. All were elderly and unvaccinated. Every day gets worse.
Fun times.
Can you explain how over capacity works and how that metric is derived? Is it based on number of rooms/beds? Hours of doctor availability? Etc
Not challenging you. Just curious.
Yes, sir, no problem. Basically it means we have to be creative and find ways/rooms to treat ICU level patients because all the ICU rooms are full. So, there are about 120 patients requiring ICU beds and levels of care, but they are no ICU rooms left. Docs and nursing staff are doing their best to treat these patients but we are stretched beyond our limits. Everyone is giving more than 100%.. After 4 surges, this one being the worst so far, it's taking a mental and physical toll.
Damn. So does that mean you have ICU patients starting to take up regular hospital rooms?
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Yes. And regular patients on recliners and wheelchairs in hallways. We have to operate like a MASH unit during war time.
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Has anyone seen this...
Since I am unable to comply with what is increasingly becoming an industry mandate - it has recently been decided that I am unsafe to be around, in the studio, and on tour," says Parada. "I mention this because you won€™t be seeing me at these upcoming shows."
"I have no negative feelings towards my band. They're doing what they believe is best for them, while I am doing the same," Parada clarifies.
He then declares "Unequivocally...that I support informed consent - which necessitates choice unburdened by coercion." He adds that he doesn't believe in allowing "those with the most power (government, corporations, organizations, employers) to dictate medical procedures to those with the least power."
Parada asks that people not "dominate, dehumanize and shout down at each other," noting that the vaccine-hesitant population "is not a monolithic group. All voices deserve to be heard."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/music/news/offspring-drummer-cant-get-covid-19-vaccine-for-medical-reasons-so-wont-play-at-upcoming-shows/ar-AAMTqa3?fbclid=IwAR0-R-83PTiqPXKRVQ23XDkLISY-rau-VuJhjH0EiLJx14AMzFATwQgGVDU
yes and I don't see the issue, Offspring are supposed to tour Europe and he won't be allowed there. Certain states like NY will now require a vaccine to go to a concert. So if he can't tour, then he needs to be replaced until he is allowed to. It just sucks for him because his reasoning is a valid medical issue, not hesitancy.
He's pretty much out of the band, he can not be around them in the studio, because he is not vaccinated, and can not be due to medical reasons. This is because the industry determined that he is unsafe because he isn't vaccinated. They mandated that all people must be vaccinated regardless. If they did not mandate that policy, he would still be able to be in the studio with them. He only put this out there to explain why he won't be on those shows in case people do wonder why another guy is playing drums.
What he is saying too, is that he doesn't see how these entities can dictate you have a medical procedure required before doing business with them. Which, if so, he won't be able to go if they demand him to have a vaccination card or passport.
In principle, I don't have an issue with businesses/industries limiting things to vaccinated people as long as people with medical exemptions are also allowed to access those services. I'm kind of surprised that some places aren't doing that, it's vaccine certificate or nothing, which completely excludes people who are unable to get the vaccine (rather than choosing not to).
It also excludes people who had a natural infection which so far seems to provide just as good of an antibody response as a vaccine.
Not quite right - as Harmony correctly said, the evidence suggests that the immune response is less strong and wanes more quickly because of T-Cells etc.
However, in the UK so far in general where full vaccination is required for something, confirmed infection in the past 6 months is also valid. So it is being used in the UK, but as a time-bound measure.
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So more and more employers are requiring the vaccine to maintain employment. Most allow for health/religious exemptions. Some are going to allow weekly testing for those who do not want the vaccine.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/united-airlines-will-require-all-67-000-u-s-employees-n1276156?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma
I have to say that while I do not believe in forcing people to get vaccinated, I do believe in the ability for an employer to ensure the safety of their employees. From comments I'm reading, it seems many people believe they have a "right" to employment.
I'm happy to see United take this stance. Interestingly, their rate of vaccination among employees appears higher than among healthcare workers. :huh:
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So more and more employers are requiring the vaccine to maintain employment. Most allow for health/religious exemptions. Some are going to allow weekly testing for those who do not want the vaccine.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/united-airlines-will-require-all-67-000-u-s-employees-n1276156?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma
I have to say that while I do not believe in forcing people to get vaccinated, I do believe in the ability for an employer to ensure the safety of their employees. From comments I'm reading, it seems many people believe they have a "right" to employment.
I'm happy to see United take this stance. Interestingly, their rate of vaccination among employees appears higher than among healthcare workers. :huh:
It's one of those instances where having a free market can be a good thing... Want to work? Get a Vax... And you're absolutely right that an employer has a right to protect their staff and customers.
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Along these lines, Oregon’s governor issued a statement a few days ago that unvaccinated healthcare workers will have a choice to make by Sept 30th. Either get vaccinated, or be subject to at least weekly COVID tests, mandatorily participate in education about the vaccine, and wear more PPE than vaccinated providers (which I can attest that even the addition of just a face shield to already wearing a mask fucking sucks). Can’t say I’m against this, but it does make me wonder how many caregivers are going to say, “Screw this, I’m out…” and move out of state or quit the field altogether.
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You gotta wonder when the medical insurance industry will play their hand... I mean the cost of one covid patient in the ice for two weeks has to be equal to a few thousand vaccines... The math has to play out heavily in favor of vaccination for them, they gotta have something in the works. Just pondering out loud.
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So more and more employers are requiring the vaccine to maintain employment. Most allow for health/religious exemptions. Some are going to allow weekly testing for those who do not want the vaccine.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/united-airlines-will-require-all-67-000-u-s-employees-n1276156?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma
I have to say that while I do not believe in forcing people to get vaccinated, I do believe in the ability for an employer to ensure the safety of their employees. From comments I'm reading, it seems many people believe they have a "right" to employment.
I'm happy to see United take this stance. Interestingly, their rate of vaccination among employees appears higher than among healthcare workers. :huh:
It's one of those instances where having a free market can be a good thing... Want to work? Get a Vax... And you're absolutely right that an employer has a right to protect their staff and customers. asses from being sued by someone who got Covid working or shopping there..
Fixed..
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My job was set to return to office right after Labor Day, just got an email today that it's pushed back with no new target date. Earliest we'll get our next update is October 1st and we'll have at least 30 days notice before offices are open, so it sounds like early November at the soonest for us.
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Yeah, the office I contract to pushed it back to February for all employees who aren't auto techs or drivers.
On a side note, Harris County reported that the average age of hospitalized covid patients was 20 :'(
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Yes. And regular patients on recliners and wheelchairs in hallways. We have to operate like a MASH unit during war time.
Feel for you going through that, really sorry. All I can say is that I hope we get out of all this. It seemed we were on the other side of the hill but clearly things are getting worse.
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So more and more employers are requiring the vaccine to maintain employment. Most allow for health/religious exemptions. Some are going to allow weekly testing for those who do not want the vaccine.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/united-airlines-will-require-all-67-000-u-s-employees-n1276156?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma
I have to say that while I do not believe in forcing people to get vaccinated, I do believe in the ability for an employer to ensure the safety of their employees. From comments I'm reading, it seems many people believe they have a "right" to employment.
I'm happy to see United take this stance. Interestingly, their rate of vaccination among employees appears higher than among healthcare workers. :huh:
It's one of those instances where having a free market can be a good thing... Want to work? Get a Vax... And you're absolutely right that an employer has a right to protect their staff and customers. asses from being sued by someone who got Covid working or shopping there..
Fixed..
That's the only reason why businesses are giving a crap about Covid and having to vaccinate.
If nobody was allowed to sue, I am sure they wouldn't care at all whether someone is vaccinated or not. As that is not their reliability to worry about. That would be on the customer to know the risks involved in waking inside their business.
Businesses I am sure are tired of having to change their overall processes of how they do business. There isn't a permanent process now, it's constantly shifting to something new the business has to abide by. Some arent able to accommodate to the new policies in place as it would take time for them to set up the process to do business.
It's rough on the small businesses to accommodate to these conditions. Some do not have the available resources to adapt to these and those were the ones that ended up closing their doors.
You gotta wonder when the medical insurance industry will play their hand... I mean the cost of one covid patient in the ice for two weeks has to be equal to a few thousand vaccines... The math has to play out heavily in favor of vaccination for them, they gotta have something in the works. Just pondering out loud.
That just makes me wonder why healthcare has to be so expensive and not something we could just use easily without having to pay someone for all us humans to utilize?
I find that aspect one of the messed up things of our current world.
How is it, healthcare is a privilege and people are wanting to use it as a privilege and deny others access to it all because that person does not want to take some new life saving technology?
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You'll get zero argument from me on that last point.
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You'll get zero argument from me on that last point.
I'm not looking for one. Just pondering out loud as well.
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REO Speedwagon has canceled two shows on their tour due to individuals within the tour testing positive. One of those shows was to be at the Sturgis rally.
This is Kevin Cronin's response to his own fans' social media comments reacting to the Sturgis cancelation, equating REO to sending a political message. We are in a sad state when the musicians that you love, who are performing for you, have to tell you to stop being an idiot.
Hi friends, as I sit alone in quarantine, dealing with the reduced, yet uncomfortable symptoms of Covid-19, and reading the comments regarding the shows we made the painful decision to cancel this weekend, I am struck by two things.
First, on behalf of myself, our entire band, crew, and management, I would like to thank the majority of people whose comments were understanding, supportive, and empathetic. I am so touched by the outpouring of positive energy. You are awesome.
Second, I have never personally responded to Facebook comments in the past. But as our band goes through this difficult period, the thoughtless, misinformed, and nasty comments I read this morning pushed my patience over the edge. I encourage lively discussion of differences of opinion. That is part of what makes the United States the Golden Country.
But our organization is living through Covid, and to hear people spouting ridiculous conspiracy theories, is more than I can bear right now. To those people: Call me back when you catch it. If you are not vaccinated you are in for a world of hurt. And if you take the vaccine, while you can still test positive, your experience will likely be mild by comparison.
This is a difficult medical, public health and safety issue. Within the REO organization there is a wide spectrum of political views. To connect our decision to cancel shows to some political agenda is absurd, insulting, and quite simply wrong…kc
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Good for him. That's a great response.
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https://variety.com/2021/music/news/live-nation-vaccination-best-practices-concerts-1235036359/?fbclid=IwAR28cVZNXtJRpHx14IqJPCn5GZ-ks0be1F-WsvxcL0tiZfRzAByubBUD6KQ
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Has anyone considered that computer bots can also contribute to negative comments and false information? People don't know this but we've been at computer warfare for years now. I know Cyber security people that fight this everyday and I know computer geeks whose test labs get attacked from bots from Russia to China. That and the very real fact that there are people here in our own country that will spread misinformation and try to overthrow our Democracy.
My point? It wouldn't surprise me one bit that REO Speed Wagon was subjected to this kind of attack and that the people criticizing them were on the other side of the world.
As for COVID, encourage people to talk with their doctor and not their Facebook when considering getting vaccinated. The vaccine is our only way out.
I fear that DT in Nov. won't happen because people are too stubborn about getting vaccinated.
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Has anyone considered that computer bots can also contribute to negative comments and false information? People don't know this but we've been at computer warfare for years now. I know Cyber security people that fight this everyday and I know computer geeks whose test labs get attacked from bots from Russia to China. That and the very real fact that there are people here in our own country that will spread misinformation and try to overthrow our Democracy.
My point? It wouldn't surprise me one bit that REO Speed Wagon was subjected to this kind of attack and that the people criticizing them were on the other side of the world.
As for COVID, encourage people to talk with their doctor and not their Facebook when considering getting vaccinated. The vaccine is our only way out.
I fear that DT in Nov. won't happen because people are too stubborn about getting vaccinated.
Wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if Russia was using their bots to continue to create divide in the US on social media. This would not be anything new, but we typically only associate it with politics, but certainly is in play not only for covid but basically anything that is divisive.
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I doubt it. Look at who listens to classic rock: white, older, Christians. Which demographic is very anti-democrat and anti-COVID? White, older Christians.
I saw the same kinds of comments a year ago from fans of a local classic rock tribute band, whose singer is an out and proud Republican and Trump supporter.
REO Speedwagon was not the victim of a cyber attack. They just have a fanbase that is predominantly conservative.
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I doubt it. Look at who listens to classic rock: white, older, Christians. Which demographic is very anti-democrat and anti-COVID? White, older Christians.
I saw the same kinds of comments a year ago from fans of a local classic rock tribute band, whose singer is an out and proud Republican and Trump supporter.
REO Speedwagon was not the victim of a cyber attack. They just have a fanbase that is predominantly conservative.
I'm not sure they would focus on REO (and I'm not at all familiar with this story), but in general I don't think it's out of the ordinary for bots to create divide on social media. It's already well documented that it happens. I do think there are likely legit people going off on the anti-covid/vax thing though. I see it with people I know so it's definitely not all bot driven.
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I might get one show in before things shut down again. Next Friday is the District 97 show in Chicago. When they scheduled it, they made it a socially distant show capped at 50 people. As of now, it's still on. Was hoping to not have to wear a mask, but I fear that might be out the window.
Now Primus next month, we'll see.
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I doubt it. Look at who listens to classic rock: white, older, Christians. Which demographic is very anti-democrat and anti-COVID? White, older Christians.
I saw the same kinds of comments a year ago from fans of a local classic rock tribute band, whose singer is an out and proud Republican and Trump supporter.
REO Speedwagon was not the victim of a cyber attack. They just have a fanbase that is predominantly conservative.
No, it's not all bot driven but one can't rule it out and all I am saying is that one has to be vigilant and if you get accused of being fat or ugly.....consider the source.
How does one know what the politics of the fanbase of REO leans towards????? ???
I'm not sure they would focus on REO (and I'm not at all familiar with this story), but in general I don't think it's out of the ordinary for bots to create divide on social media. It's already well documented that it happens. I do think there are likely legit people going off on the anti-covid/vax thing though. I see it with people I know so it's definitely not all bot driven.
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I might get one show in before things shut down again. Next Friday is the District 97 show in Chicago. When they scheduled it, they made it a socially distant show capped at 50 people. As of now, it's still on. Was hoping to not have to wear a mask, but I fear that might be out the window.
Now Primus next month, we'll see.
Saw Guns N roses last night, huge stadium concert. Then today the sold out concert for Limp Bizkit got cancelled, rumor is the bassist tested positive right before the show. I don't think the tours are going to get cancelled because of covid at this point. Just too much business to lose and a general sense that covid is here to stay and we need to live with it. However, seeing shows get cancelled/postponed on a small scale is going to be a thing for awhile. As well as international bands being able to tour in the US.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8EXBLuXMAIlAG3?format=jpg&name=large)
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Yeah, shows will be a case by case basis from here on out, as will most things. The toothpaste is out of the tube man.
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How does one know what the politics of the fanbase of REO leans towards????? ???
Why don't you wear a Biden shirt to Sturgis and see how the crowd treats you? ;)
Classic rock fans tend to be white, suburban conservatives (like me). I have no doubt that many of the comments came from real people, who have been emboldened in speaking unfiltered over the last four years. I live in a very red county and see it daily in local social media groups and definitely offline.
I just bought tickets for Last in Line at a small club near my house. I hope nothing gets shut back down.
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I might get one show in before things shut down again. Next Friday is the District 97 show in Chicago. When they scheduled it, they made it a socially distant show capped at 50 people. As of now, it's still on. Was hoping to not have to wear a mask, but I fear that might be out the window.
Now Primus next month, we'll see.
Saw Guns N roses last night, huge stadium concert. Then today the sold out concert for Limp Bizkit got cancelled, rumor is the bassist tested positive right before the show. I don't think the tours are going to get cancelled because of covid at this point. Just too much business to lose and a general sense that covid is here to stay and we need to live with it. However, seeing shows get cancelled/postponed on a small scale is going to be a thing for awhile. As well as international bands being able to tour in the US.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8EXBLuXMAIlAG3?format=jpg&name=large)
Of course they're gonna go on with the shows. They've invested a lot into making them happen, that if there is a way to let them continue they will do it.
One way, one band decided to continue on with the show was to not allow their non-vaccinated drummer to play shows and even be in the studio with them. They found a way around it, and it's unfortunate, but I am sure there is no hard feelings regarding the band members themselves. It's just how it has to be, and that's what I got with the drummers statement.
I wondered about this situation when they announced the shows were going to happen.
If anything, it's up to the band and their managers to decide what's best for their band.
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My job was set to return to office right after Labor Day, just got an email today that it's pushed back with no new target date. Earliest we'll get our next update is October 1st and we'll have at least 30 days notice before offices are open, so it sounds like early November at the soonest for us.
We got a similar email a few days ago.
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If anything, it's up to the band and their managers to decide what's best for their band.
That and local rules and regulations. I doubt LB wanted to cancel tonight, but I'm sure the venue and rules said you cannot perform if you have covid which makes sense. My point is, its not just the bands and their managers who decide these things. There's been no official word yet, but the rumors range from the bassist to have tested positive (very possible) to a security guard being positive (I doubt). Either way, I'd bet the band and management would love for the show to happen but the local rules probably force this to be cancelled. I don't blame them, I'm only upset because it impacted my friday night plans that I was looking forward to and that they aren't being transparent (yet, we will see). Fred Durst came out and took pics and talked to the fans who stuck around so he seems fine.
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If anything, it's up to the band and their managers to decide what's best for their band.
Let's say the bass player or the drummer tested positive. Unless they were actually too sick to perform, there's no reason they can't maintain a physical distance from the rest of the band or even the audience.
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If anything, it's up to the band and their managers to decide what's best for their band.
Let's say the bass player or the drummer tested positive. Unless they were actually too sick to perform, there's no reason they can't maintain a physical distance from the rest of the band or even the audience.
What I'm interested in, is say the drummer is positive. Sure he can stand on the side stage, (have someone fill in, use backing tracks and no bassist). But does he stay on tour? Do the rest of the band take the tour bus with him? Does he have to bunker down in a hotel in Asbury Park until he tests negative, and are all the next shows postponed? Do they just pack it up, travel to the next state that allows them to play?
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No band will perform when another bandmate is positive.
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Don't know if anyone here follows Jason Isbell on Twitter but he got into a pretty big dust-up with Marc Broussard today. Broussard called Jason "bourgois" for being in favor of proof of vax or negative Covid test to come to his show.
Hilarity ensued.
But seriously, the "fuck your feelings" crowd sure have a lot of feelings about being asked to protect their fellow human beings.
Hospitals all over America are on divert because they are full up of unvaccinated Covid patients. This means if you have chest pain, symptoms of a stroke, get in a car accident, or any other emergency health care problem putting you in urgent need you're fucked.
But damn it, I'm not going to take no free test to see a concert! :\
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No band will perform when another bandmate is positive.
I agree normally, but some band members can be replaced on the spot. Not saying it should have happened here, just saying we've seen other bands perform without members who were sick :cough: nightwish :cough:
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No band will perform when another bandmate is positive.
I agree normally, but some band members can be replaced on the spot. Not saying it should have happened here, just saying we've seen other bands perform without members who were sick :cough: nightwish :cough:
Robb Flynn from Machine Head posted a fantastic article about musicians being put into uncomfortable positions while touring, since the vaccines aren't foolproof and venues aren't following protocols or CDC guidance: https://www.machinehead1.com/blogs/the-general-journals/touring-during-a-pandemic
I'm not so sure that it's going to be as easy as plugging a new person into the sick person's role. The article says that bands should really have a backup plan ready in case someone catches COVID. Maybe some do. Maybe some don't. REO didn't - it looks like they had an outbreak among band and crew and they're cancelling shows.
From the little I've seen, bands are feeling that ONE single positive case in a touring company (band, tour manager, roadies, bus driver, etc.) will shut an entire tour down for good. Maybe they don't have the money to have backup crew available at a moment's notice or touring with them as a precaution. Chuck Billy from Testament just put out a little PSA about their tour, asking fans to wear masks to the shows if they're not vaccinated. He very bluntly said that if anyone tests positive, the tour is OVER.
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Another new record for FL. 23,747 in a single day.
I see those concert pics and think to myself, maybe hundreds of those attendees are going to get it. Then I think about schools opening down here next week. Delta is hard on the kids. 3 to 4 weeks after school starts, we could have 30K new cases a day or more. Then I think, when will this ever end?
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'Wish I could go to that mask burning gathering' proponent dies of covid days later :facepalm:.....
https://www.thedailybeast.com/h-scott-apley-chair-of-galveston-county-texas-gop-mocked-covid-days-before-he-died-of-virus
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Another new record for FL. 23,747 in a single day.
I see those concert pics and think to myself, maybe hundreds of those attendees are going to get it. Then I think about schools opening down here next week. Delta is hard on the kids. 3 to 4 weeks after school starts, we could have 30K new cases a day or more. Then I think, when will this ever end?
I saw a stat yesterday that said the average age of a covid patient in Houston area hospitals was 20..I mean damn, how does that not get people's attention?
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Boy do I feel great about my conference in Dallas in October and Transatlantic in April in Tennessee. Oof.
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Another new record for FL. 23,747 in a single day.
I see those concert pics and think to myself, maybe hundreds of those attendees are going to get it. Then I think about schools opening down here next week. Delta is hard on the kids. 3 to 4 weeks after school starts, we could have 30K new cases a day or more. Then I think, when will this ever end?
Are you seeing many kids at your hospital?
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Another new record for FL. 23,747 in a single day.
I see those concert pics and think to myself, maybe hundreds of those attendees are going to get it. Then I think about schools opening down here next week. Delta is hard on the kids. 3 to 4 weeks after school starts, we could have 30K new cases a day or more. Then I think, when will this ever end?
Are you seeing many kids at your hospital?
Unfortunately, yes. Far too many. Here is an article that sums it up. We really have to be careful with the kids.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/07/health/us-coronavirus-saturday/index.html
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Another new record for FL. 23,747 in a single day.
I see those concert pics and think to myself, maybe hundreds of those attendees are going to get it. Then I think about schools opening down here next week. Delta is hard on the kids. 3 to 4 weeks after school starts, we could have 30K new cases a day or more. Then I think, when will this ever end?
I saw a stat yesterday that said the average age of a covid patient in Houston area hospitals was 20..I mean damn, how does that not get people's attention?
Well - and I am in full support of your point here - that needs to be data that people KNOW. From what little press I hear/see, the information being put forth by our Fourth Estate is woefully lacking in terms of influencing and informing. It's less about giving the RIGHT information to drive better decision-making than it is bolstering preconceived opinions. I'm paying attention, and I didn't know that until I read your post.
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I'm really quite confused about all the articles you see about children these days. Yes more of them seem to be getting hospitalized but I just have to wonder is that because they are one of the bigger unvaccinated populations? And are the outcomes worse than these children see from any other type of respiratory infections that ravage schools and daycares year after year?
It just feels like we are not getting to that level with the data. There's the alarmist headline about "think of the children" and that's it. As a parent it's hard to make a decision about what risks you're comfortable with when the media seem so alarmist without ever wanting to give the full story.
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I'm really quite confused about all the articles you see about children these days. Yes more of them seem to be getting hospitalized but I just have to wonder is that because they are one of the bigger unvaccinated populations? And are the outcomes worse than these children see from any other type of respiratory infections that ravage schools and daycares year after year?
It just feels like we are not getting to that level with the data. There's the alarmist headline about "think of the children" and that's it. As a parent it's hard to make a decision about what risks you're comfortable with when the media seem so alarmist without ever wanting to give the full story.
First off, you should always take your kids to the doctor if they are not feeling good.
My brother did that with his adopted son, because he thought he caught his strep. But, the doctor said, the boy has a "Summer Cold" and that the clinic he went to told him they've been seeing a lot of kids with this.
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"Summer Cold"?? You mean, like ... COVID??
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"Summer Cold"?? You mean, like ... COVID??
No. The doctor at their Tribal Clinic is the one that told them this. That's all they told him.
I am thinking he means the "Summer Cold" that children usually develop around this time.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/kids-sick-covid-are-filling-children-s-hospitals-areas-seeing-n1276238
Her hospital has treated Covid in children ages from 3-week-olds to 17-year-olds in recent weeks. Iheagawara said that for the past month, her unit has had to treat 25 or 26 patients in a space designed for 20. And things are getting worse
Arkansas Children’s Hospital in Little Rock had 23 patients under 18 admitted to its system last week. Ten were in the ICU and five were on ventilators.
St. Louis Children’s Hospital in Missouri saw 13 kids come to the ER for Covid in the last week of July, and then it saw 20 who needed beds in the first week of August.
At Texas Children’s Hospital in Houston, Covid positivity rates have risen from around 3 percent to above 10 percent among kids. The number of hospitalized children was in the single digits several weeks ago but rose to more than 30 last week.
Louisiana Gov. John Bel Edwards said Friday that there are 13 children hospitalized with Covid at Children's Hospital New Orleans, including six under the age of 2. Four children are in the ICU, including a 3-month-old boy, a 23-month-old girl, an 8-year-old girl and a 17-year-old boy.
I think it's about the same as adults - some will be fine, some will need to be hospitalized. But the general idea is the same - try to stay healthy, because the hospitals are running out of room, even for kids. Bottom line is that it's mostly preventable, which is the message i'm getting from the media. It's not that kids are NEVER hospitalized - some have cancer, some have heart or other problems. If kids wear masks when needed and the adults in the household are vaccinated, then it's less of a chance of them getting sick.
We're doing a little more with my kids this year compared to last year, since my wife and I are both vaccinated. I've read that the Delta variant does make kids sicker than the original strain that went around last year, which gives me some worry, but we also can't make them live in a bubble again either.
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So more and more employers are requiring the vaccine to maintain employment. Most allow for health/religious exemptions. Some are going to allow weekly testing for those who do not want the vaccine.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/united-airlines-will-require-all-67-000-u-s-employees-n1276156?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma
I have to say that while I do not believe in forcing people to get vaccinated, I do believe in the ability for an employer to ensure the safety of their employees. From comments I'm reading, it seems many people believe they have a "right" to employment.
I'm happy to see United take this stance. Interestingly, their rate of vaccination among employees appears higher than among healthcare workers. :huh:
It's one of those instances where having a free market can be a good thing... Want to work? Get a Vax... And you're absolutely right that an employer has a right to protect their staff and customers. asses from being sued by someone who got Covid working or shopping there..
Fixed..
That's the only reason why businesses are giving a crap about Covid and having to vaccinate.
If nobody was allowed to sue, I am sure they wouldn't care at all whether someone is vaccinated or not. As that is not their reliability to worry about. That would be on the customer to know the risks involved in waking inside their business.
Businesses I am sure are tired of having to change their overall processes of how they do business. There isn't a permanent process now, it's constantly shifting to something new the business has to abide by. Some arent able to accommodate to the new policies in place as it would take time for them to set up the process to do business.
It's rough on the small businesses to accommodate to these conditions. Some do not have the available resources to adapt to these and those were the ones that ended up closing their doors.
But people DO have the right to sue; that's the premise in a free society. You get to do what you want, but if you cause harm* to someone else, you may have consequences.
*harm - I mean that in the legal sense, not in the sense that it has come to mean in the identity politics discussion. I mean physical, quantifiable - in extent and dollars - and measurable. I don't mean getting your precious feelings hurt.
You gotta wonder when the medical insurance industry will play their hand... I mean the cost of one covid patient in the ice for two weeks has to be equal to a few thousand vaccines... The math has to play out heavily in favor of vaccination for them, they gotta have something in the works. Just pondering out loud.
That just makes me wonder why healthcare has to be so expensive and not something we could just use easily without having to pay someone for all us humans to utilize?
I find that aspect one of the messed up things of our current world.
How is it, healthcare is a privilege and people are wanting to use it as a privilege and deny others access to it all because that person does not want to take some new life saving technology?
What do you mean by "not something we could just use easily without having to pay someone for all us humans to utilize?" Obamacare was supposed to drive out cost, but that didn't happen, because they didn't bother to address it. They didn't remove the state-by-state jurisdiction over insurance. They didn't address the pharmaceutical issue (in fact, they cut a deal GUARANTEEING the pharmaceuticals tens of billions in profits to not "torpedo" their deal). There are other areas to address this issue as well.
I also don't follow the last part; depending on where you sit on the debate (I am an advocate for single payer, by the way; yes it's an exception to my normal fiscal approach to things, but I think it's a necessary one) healthcare is a privilege or a right; if it's a privilege, then it absolutely should follow - if one is interested in consistency - that we could demand vaccination if one wants to avail themselves of those privileges. If it's a right, then we cannot demand vaccination as a precursor to receiving that right, since by definition one is entitled to it. The funny thing is, if you subscribe to the accepted wisdom of the ideology, the "privilege" people are the one's saying we shouldn't demand vaccination, and the "right" people are the one's saying we should.
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Our facility is now 56% Covid. We have another Central FL facility that is 93% Covid. Another one (my former location) is 69%. We came nowhere near these numbers at the worst peak of the pandemic. Not even close.
They are paying us a sizeable hourly bonus, which is nice, but mandating weekends because the volume is so astronomically high, the supplies run out by mid Saturday afternoon. If the northern states mirror what we are dealing with down here, in a couple weeks, hold on tight.
I'm so ready for this to be over.
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Our facility is now 56% Covid. We have another Central FL facility that is 93% Covid. Another one (my former location) is 69%. We came nowhere near these numbers at the worst peak of the pandemic. Not even close.
They are paying us a sizeable hourly bonus, which is nice, but mandating weekends because the volume is so astronomically high, the supplies run out by mid Saturday afternoon. If the northern states mirror what we are dealing with down here, in a couple weeks, hold on tight.
I'm so ready for this to be over.
The difference is the peak for maybe the north was last winter where FL and a lot of the south may be seeing the peak right now as those areas mostly escaped the harshness of last winter we up north experienced. I think this week will continue to see a rise and then this wave will plateau. Of course that doesn't mean there won't be more pain for some time though. I can't imagine how difficult this has and will continue to be for healthcare workers.
Also, I have no idea if my thought is true about peaking soon. I'm basing it on the trends from the UK where the spike took about 6 or so weeks to plateau. We are approaching that timeline but I think it will take a bit longer as our vaccination rate is not as good as the UK. Things are definitely going to get a bit worse and that's only amplified by the hospitals being overwhelmded. But this is also localized. The hospitals are not an issue for me locally for example. While cases are going up, it's not nearly the same as what FL and other states are experiencing. NJ still hasn't imposed the mask mandate for example. I really think they are trying to do their best to let this wave plateau and not have to enforce rules again. The problem is, what if it doesn't plateau soon? If my thoughts are incorrect (entirely possible, I'm no expert here just another internet junkie) then things really are going to get bad again.
But so far locally, the deaths per day is under 10 for awhile now. Not seeing the 100+ from the initial wave and 80+ from the winter wave. To me, that shows the vaccine is working. Cases are going to always happen, but once we have that initial protection, the deaths aren't going wild.
Now if only Desantis could push FL to get vaccinated ASAP ...
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Looks like vaccine mandates or "requirements" are about to be a thing.
About fucking time! :tup
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More data about how well the vaccines are working:
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-vaccine-updates-08-09-21/h_9c6a79bada1c3b54c7d873635394a789 (https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-vaccine-updates-08-09-21/h_9c6a79bada1c3b54c7d873635394a789)
As of Aug. 2, more than 164 million people in the United States were fully vaccinated against Covid-19, according to the CDC. Fewer than 0.001% of those individuals — 1,507 people — died and fewer than 0.005% — 7,101 people — were hospitalized with Covid-19.
...
About three-quarters (74%) of all reported breakthrough cases were among seniors age 65 or older. Of the roughly 1,500 people who died, one in five passed away from something other than Covid-19 even though they had a breakthrough case of the virus, according to the CDC.
I keep seeing on social media, posts about how "the vaccines aren't working" and I don't understand why people believe a spike in cases has much to do with the effectiveness of the vaccines.
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The vaccines are definitely working .... for the time being. But with the unvaccinated population being a virtual petrie dish to breed variants, it's only a matter of time they don't perform as well. The virus ain't stupid.
FYI, here in Ontario, we haven't lifted our mask mandates ... and cases have doubled in the past couple of weeks from being under 200 daily, to now over 400. I'm not as concerned about the raw case count - it's the data behind the case count that matters (imo). How many are from vax'd vs unvax'd? How many were from symptomatic testing? How many are hospitalized / ICU / fatal? I wish this kind of data would be reported. There's a website available, but it takes a bit of investigation to get thru. One thing I did see, of the total active cases in Ontario, 68% are in the age group 30 and under. UNDER. :omg:
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The vaccines are definitely working .... for the time being. But with the unvaccinated population being a virtual petrie dish to breed variants, it's only a matter of time they don't perform as well. The virus ain't stupid.
FYI, here in Ontario, we haven't lifted our mask mandates ... and cases have doubled in the past couple of weeks from being under 200 daily, to now over 400. I'm not as concerned about the raw case count - it's the data behind the case count that matters (imo). How many are from vax'd vs unvax'd? How many were from symptomatic testing? How many are hospitalized / ICU / fatal? I wish this kind of data would be reported. There's a website available, but it takes a bit of investigation to get thru. One thing I did see, of the total active cases in Ontario, 68% are in the age group 30 and under. UNDER. :omg:
I'm sure boosters will be thing in the future at this point, but it seems like that was always inevitable with the way this mutates. I'd imagine the current vaccines will do a good job preventing death for awhile, but will get worse at preventing illness more quickly. And while it's easy to blame the chosen unvaccinated, I think the issue is much larger than that. There's just no way to vaccinate the entire world population to prevent a mutation. It's just not possible. I don't think the chosen unvaccinated are helping by any means, but the logistical and monetary situation regarding the entire planet, just makes it unfeasible.
As to what I bolded, I'd guess that's because they are unvaccinated. Besides the children too young, it seems a lot of under 30s feel they are healthy and don't want the vaccine. Not sure that holds true in Canada, but certainly in the US, our young feel invincible.
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The vaccines are definitely working .... for the time being. But with the unvaccinated population being a virtual petrie dish to breed variants, it's only a matter of time they don't perform as well. The virus ain't stupid.
FYI, here in Ontario, we haven't lifted our mask mandates ... and cases have doubled in the past couple of weeks from being under 200 daily, to now over 400. I'm not as concerned about the raw case count - it's the data behind the case count that matters (imo). How many are from vax'd vs unvax'd? How many were from symptomatic testing? How many are hospitalized / ICU / fatal? I wish this kind of data would be reported. There's a website available, but it takes a bit of investigation to get thru. One thing I did see, of the total active cases in Ontario, 68% are in the age group 30 and under. UNDER. :omg:
As to what I bolded, I'd guess that's because they are unvaccinated. Besides the children too young, it seems a lot of under 30s feel they are healthy and don't want the vaccine. Not sure that holds true in Canada, but certainly in the US, our young feel invincible.
Unlikely current stats in Ontario:
People who are fully vaccinated (2 doses / by age)
18-29: 58.1%
12-17: 52.2%
Yes, they are less than the older population groups (64% and higher in 30+ categories), but it's still not a statistical correlation just for the unvax'd. Something is hitting these younger groups - perhaps it's the carelessness of them, perhaps it's something else.
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/mass-reports-100-breakthrough-coronavirus-case-deaths-as-of-july-31-average-age-was-82-5-years-old/ar-AAN7IPZ?ocid=hplocalnews
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The vaccines are definitely working .... for the time being. But with the unvaccinated population being a virtual petrie dish to breed variants, it's only a matter of time they don't perform as well. The virus ain't stupid.
FYI, here in Ontario, we haven't lifted our mask mandates ... and cases have doubled in the past couple of weeks from being under 200 daily, to now over 400. I'm not as concerned about the raw case count - it's the data behind the case count that matters (imo). How many are from vax'd vs unvax'd? How many were from symptomatic testing? How many are hospitalized / ICU / fatal? I wish this kind of data would be reported. There's a website available, but it takes a bit of investigation to get thru. One thing I did see, of the total active cases in Ontario, 68% are in the age group 30 and under. UNDER. :omg:
I'm sure boosters will be thing in the future at this point, but it seems like that was always inevitable with the way this mutates. I'd imagine the current vaccines will do a good job preventing death for awhile, but will get worse at preventing illness more quickly. And while it's easy to blame the chosen unvaccinated, I think the issue is much larger than that. There's just no way to vaccinate the entire world population to prevent a mutation. It's just not possible. I don't think the chosen unvaccinated are helping by any means, but the logistical and monetary situation regarding the entire planet, just makes it unfeasible.
As to what I bolded, I'd guess that's because they are unvaccinated. Besides the children too young, it seems a lot of under 30s feel they are healthy and don't want the vaccine. Not sure that holds true in Canada, but certainly in the US, our young feel invincible.
It was not possible and how much humans travel could be a big factor in this. Humans spread the virus and one way people spread it is through traveling. When they opened the country, people travelled, and people travelled to the places with high infection rates. People from all the states likely travelled to these places for "Summer Vacations".
And now as the data is revealing, vaccinated people still caught the virus and more than likely because they traveled to these places thinking since they got the vaccine they will be fine.
It's why I feel, shutting down the borders would've been more beneficial in stopping the spread or slowing it and confining it into these places. But, what do I know?... :lol
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Unlikely current stats in Ontario:
People who are fully vaccinated (2 doses / by age)
18-29: 58.1%
12-17: 52.2%
Yes, they are less than the older population groups (64% and higher in 30+ categories), but it's still not a statistical correlation just for the unvax'd. Something is hitting these younger groups - perhaps it's the carelessness of them, perhaps it's something else.
Percentage of what? Those add up to 110.3%. Only Yngwie and Chuck Norris can ACTUALLY give you more than 100%, so what are we looking at?
We need comparison numbers as well: how big are those groups compared to other groups? (If 50% of starting NFL QBs are vaccinated, that's not that big a deal since there are only 30 teams in the NFL (I'm not counting the Jaguars and the Jets).
And it's fair to point out that there are no COVID variants of high interest and four variants of concern, NONE of which originated in the States.
There's a lot of focus on the U.S. because I don't know (it's where many of us live? It's fun to point fingers?) but we're darn near 60% where the world is barely at 30% (https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations). Again, it goes back to our goals and what we're REALLY worried about.
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Um, Stads, read Jingle's post again. 58% of people aged 18-29 are vaxxed and 52% of people aged 12-17 are vaxxed. No need to add up the percentages as those are different control groups.
And as for Destupid mandating vaccines, he's threatening to not pay school officials that enforce mask mandates. The man has no interest in doing anything to deter this.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/09/florida-gov-desantis-threatens-salaries-school-superintendents-school-board-members-mask-mandates/5546215001/
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The vaccines are definitely working .... for the time being. But with the unvaccinated population being a virtual petrie dish to breed variants, it's only a matter of time they don't perform as well. The virus ain't stupid.
FYI, here in Ontario, we haven't lifted our mask mandates ... and cases have doubled in the past couple of weeks from being under 200 daily, to now over 400. I'm not as concerned about the raw case count - it's the data behind the case count that matters (imo). How many are from vax'd vs unvax'd? How many were from symptomatic testing? How many are hospitalized / ICU / fatal? I wish this kind of data would be reported. There's a website available, but it takes a bit of investigation to get thru. One thing I did see, of the total active cases in Ontario, 68% are in the age group 30 and under. UNDER. :omg:
As to what I bolded, I'd guess that's because they are unvaccinated. Besides the children too young, it seems a lot of under 30s feel they are healthy and don't want the vaccine. Not sure that holds true in Canada, but certainly in the US, our young feel invincible.
Unlikely current stats in Ontario:
People who are fully vaccinated (2 doses / by age)
18-29: 58.1%
12-17: 52.2%
Yes, they are less than the older population groups (64% and higher in 30+ categories), but it's still not a statistical correlation just for the unvax'd. Something is hitting these younger groups - perhaps it's the carelessness of them, perhaps it's something else.
That's a little mis-leading - that 64% applies to ages 30-39, but the % gets higher and higher with each age group - it's 91% for ages 70-79 and 93% for over 80s. https://covid19tracker.ca/provincevac.html?p=ON
It's similar in the UK, and so yes, it's almost certainly a combination of vaccination rates and possibly different behaviours (younger people going out and mingling more).
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We need comparison numbers as well: how big are those groups compared to other groups? (If 50% of starting NFL QBs are vaccinated, that's not that big a deal since there are only 30 teams in the NFL (I'm not counting the Jaguars and the Jets).
Why? What would knowing the precise skew of age brackets tell us?
And it's fair to point out that there are no COVID variants of high interest and four variants of concern, NONE of which originated in the States.
Again, why does that matter? Why is that "fair"? The Delta variant is in the US now, why does it matter where it originated? Alpha originated in Wuhan. I fail to understand how the origin is relevant.
There's a lot of focus on the U.S. because I don't know (it's where many of us live? It's fun to point fingers?) but we're darn near 60% where the world is barely at 30% (https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations). Again, it goes back to our goals and what we're REALLY worried about.
I think you answered it yourself - it's probably the country with the largest group of DTF'rs. There's not a lot of talk about how Spain is handling the pandemic, because I don't know if there are many Spaniards here.
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That's a little mis-leading - that 64% applies to ages 30-39, but the % gets higher and higher with each age group - it's 91% for ages 70-79 and 93% for over 80s. https://covid19tracker.ca/provincevac.html?p=ON
That's what I mean to suggest by indicating "64% and higher in 30+ categories", not specifically 64% in 30-39 - I was just lazy and didn't want to list out every age category. ;)
It's similar in the UK, and so yes, it's almost certainly a combination of vaccination rates and possibly different behaviours (younger people going out and mingling more).
I'm am genuinely curious if there is something physiologically (ie, not just behaviours) that is causing the higher caseload and increased sickness of the <30 crowd. I mean, we know the Alpha variant didn't hit children as hard as it did adults, so there is evidence the virus has different effects on different age groups. Is it unreasonable to think that Delta does somehow have a stronger effect on younger people?
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Um, Stads, read Jingle's post again. 58% of people aged 18-29 are vaxxed and 52% of people aged 12-17 are vaxxed. No need to add up the percentages as those are different control groups.
Yeah, thanks for clarifying; that's the part I missed.
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We need comparison numbers as well: how big are those groups compared to other groups? (If 50% of starting NFL QBs are vaccinated, that's not that big a deal since there are only 30 teams in the NFL (I'm not counting the Jaguars and the Jets).
Why? What would knowing the precise skew of age brackets tell us?
For one, it will help with:
I'm am genuinely curious if there is something physiologically (ie, not just behaviours) that is causing the higher caseload and increased sickness of the <30 crowd. I mean, we know the Alpha variant didn't hit children as hard as it did adults, so there is evidence the virus has different effects on different age groups. Is it unreasonable to think that Delta does somehow have a stronger effect on younger people?
I've posted articles that behavior isn't the number one driver of how the virus reacts (the New York Times Morning article from about a week or two ago), so there IS something else going on, it's just not clear what it is.
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Younger people, like those in those age categories, like to explore the world and discover what it is they can accomplish. They strive to find their place in life. How do you do this?....You go out and go places, you go out and experience the world, you don't just stay put at home and worry.
The younger crowds are the ones that are not going to take this, as they are young, wild, and free.
So what do the younger crowds do when the country opens, they traveled and explored the country. Being young and wanting to explore all the world has to offer.
I feel that travel and desire could play a role in the <30 crowd catching the virus.
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Um, Stads, read Jingle's post again. 58% of people aged 18-29 are vaxxed and 52% of people aged 12-17 are vaxxed. No need to add up the percentages as those are different control groups.
Yeah, thanks for clarifying; that's the part I missed.
No problem. Any chance to have the opportunity to say, 'I corrected Stadler!'. :biggrin:
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Younger people, like those in those age categories, like to explore the world and discover what it is they can accomplish. They strive to find their place in life. How do you do this?....You go out and go places, you go out and experience the world, you don't just stay put at home and worry.
The younger crowds are the ones that are not going to take this, as they are young, wild, and free.
So what do the younger crowds do when the country opens, they traveled and explored the country. Being young and wanting to explore all the world has to offer.
I feel that travel and desire could play a role in the <30 crowd catching the virus.
I don't know what the proper terminology is, but at that age, up to about 25 or so, there are differences in the brain in terms of risk awareness and risk tolerance. This isn't new, and is fairly well documented.
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Younger people, like those in those age categories, like to explore the world and discover what it is they can accomplish. They strive to find their place in life. How do you do this?....You go out and go places, you go out and experience the world, you don't just stay put at home and worry.
The younger crowds are the ones that are not going to take this, as they are young, wild, and free.
So what do the younger crowds do when the country opens, they traveled and explored the country. Being young and wanting to explore all the world has to offer.
I feel that travel and desire could play a role in the <30 crowd catching the virus.
I don't know what the proper terminology is, but at that age, up to about 25 or so, there are differences in the brain in terms of risk awareness and risk tolerance. This isn't new, and is fairly well documented.
Pretty sure you're thinking of the frontal lobe's development.
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Um, Stads, read Jingle's post again. 58% of people aged 18-29 are vaxxed and 52% of people aged 12-17 are vaxxed. No need to add up the percentages as those are different control groups.
Yeah, thanks for clarifying; that's the part I missed.
No problem. Any chance to have the opportunity to say, 'I corrected Stadler!'. :biggrin:
:tup
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Younger people, like those in those age categories, like to explore the world and discover what it is they can accomplish. They strive to find their place in life. How do you do this?....You go out and go places, you go out and experience the world, you don't just stay put at home and worry.
The younger crowds are the ones that are not going to take this, as they are young, wild, and free.
So what do the younger crowds do when the country opens, they traveled and explored the country. Being young and wanting to explore all the world has to offer.
I feel that travel and desire could play a role in the <30 crowd catching the virus.
I don't know what the proper terminology is, but at that age, up to about 25 or so, there are differences in the brain in terms of risk awareness and risk tolerance. This isn't new, and is fairly well documented.
Oh, okay. Is this a reason why you can't get Car Insurance until you turn 25?
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Younger people, like those in those age categories, like to explore the world and discover what it is they can accomplish. They strive to find their place in life. How do you do this?....You go out and go places, you go out and experience the world, you don't just stay put at home and worry.
The younger crowds are the ones that are not going to take this, as they are young, wild, and free.
So what do the younger crowds do when the country opens, they traveled and explored the country. Being young and wanting to explore all the world has to offer.
I feel that travel and desire could play a role in the <30 crowd catching the virus.
I don't know what the proper terminology is, but at that age, up to about 25 or so, there are differences in the brain in terms of risk awareness and risk tolerance. This isn't new, and is fairly well documented.
Oh, okay. Is this a reason why you can't get Car Insurance until you turn 25?
?? I was insured at 16. It's illegal to drive without it.
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Speaking of being corrected, Chad will be happy to know I humbly acknowledge I was wrong. My county is instituting a mask directive (it's not a mandate any longer...) for anyone over 5 in any indoor facility. Didn't think it would come to pass,and certainly not my county being the first in the state.
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Younger people, like those in those age categories, like to explore the world and discover what it is they can accomplish. They strive to find their place in life. How do you do this?....You go out and go places, you go out and experience the world, you don't just stay put at home and worry.
The younger crowds are the ones that are not going to take this, as they are young, wild, and free.
So what do the younger crowds do when the country opens, they traveled and explored the country. Being young and wanting to explore all the world has to offer.
I feel that travel and desire could play a role in the <30 crowd catching the virus.
I don't know what the proper terminology is, but at that age, up to about 25 or so, there are differences in the brain in terms of risk awareness and risk tolerance. This isn't new, and is fairly well documented.
Oh, okay. Is this a reason why you can't get Car Insurance until you turn 25?
?? I was insured at 16. It's illegal to drive without it.
Insurance is more than it is when you're 25.
I guess what I mean is...Is this a reason why the rates go down for car insurance when you're 25?
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Younger people, like those in those age categories, like to explore the world and discover what it is they can accomplish. They strive to find their place in life. How do you do this?....You go out and go places, you go out and experience the world, you don't just stay put at home and worry.
The younger crowds are the ones that are not going to take this, as they are young, wild, and free.
So what do the younger crowds do when the country opens, they traveled and explored the country. Being young and wanting to explore all the world has to offer.
I feel that travel and desire could play a role in the <30 crowd catching the virus.
I don't know what the proper terminology is, but at that age, up to about 25 or so, there are differences in the brain in terms of risk awareness and risk tolerance. This isn't new, and is fairly well documented.
Oh, okay. Is this a reason why you can't get Car Insurance until you turn 25?
?? I was insured at 16. It's illegal to drive without it.
When I was a young whipper-snapper, the 25 years old thing was when your car insurance went down in cost. I remember independence day when I my bill reduced significantly because stats showed the kids under 25 were more likely to get into crashes. I have know idea what the criteria is today.
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Um, Stads, read Jingle's post again. 58% of people aged 18-29 are vaxxed and 52% of people aged 12-17 are vaxxed. No need to add up the percentages as those are different control groups.
And as for Destupid mandating vaccines, he's threatening to not pay school officials that enforce mask mandates. The man has no interest in doing anything to deter this.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/09/florida-gov-desantis-threatens-salaries-school-superintendents-school-board-members-mask-mandates/5546215001/
You know, if I were from another planet or even the other side of the world, I would quickly come to the conclusion that governors such as Disantis and Abbott are actively trying to kill people. Madness! >:(
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Younger people, like those in those age categories, like to explore the world and discover what it is they can accomplish. They strive to find their place in life. How do you do this?....You go out and go places, you go out and experience the world, you don't just stay put at home and worry.
The younger crowds are the ones that are not going to take this, as they are young, wild, and free.
So what do the younger crowds do when the country opens, they traveled and explored the country. Being young and wanting to explore all the world has to offer.
I feel that travel and desire could play a role in the <30 crowd catching the virus.
I don't know what the proper terminology is, but at that age, up to about 25 or so, there are differences in the brain in terms of risk awareness and risk tolerance. This isn't new, and is fairly well documented.
Oh, okay. Is this a reason why you can't get Car Insurance until you turn 25?
?? I was insured at 16. It's illegal to drive without it.
When I was a young whipper-snapper, the 25 years old thing was when your car insurance went down in cost. I remember independence day when I my bill reduced significantly because stats showed the kids under 25 were more likely to get into crashes. I have know idea what the criteria is today.
All about risk. Age, where you live, where you drive, how long you had a license, all that can either increase of decrease your insurance cost.
The 25 year old thing I thought was for renting a car, but I believe that's not a thing anymore? Specially because things like Zipcar made it very easy for people to rent cars.
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Younger people, like those in those age categories, like to explore the world and discover what it is they can accomplish. They strive to find their place in life. How do you do this?....You go out and go places, you go out and experience the world, you don't just stay put at home and worry.
The younger crowds are the ones that are not going to take this, as they are young, wild, and free.
So what do the younger crowds do when the country opens, they traveled and explored the country. Being young and wanting to explore all the world has to offer.
I feel that travel and desire could play a role in the <30 crowd catching the virus.
I don't know what the proper terminology is, but at that age, up to about 25 or so, there are differences in the brain in terms of risk awareness and risk tolerance. This isn't new, and is fairly well documented.
Oh, okay. Is this a reason why you can't get Car Insurance until you turn 25?
?? I was insured at 16. It's illegal to drive without it.
When I was a young whipper-snapper, the 25 years old thing was when your car insurance went down in cost. I remember independence day when I my bill reduced significantly because stats showed the kids under 25 were more likely to get into crashes. I have know idea what the criteria is today.
All about risk. Age, where you live, where you drive, how long you had a license, all that can either increase of decrease your insurance cost.
The 25 year old thing I thought was for renting a car, but I believe that's not a thing anymore? Specially because things like Zipcar made it very easy for people to rent cars.
:lol :lol
That's what it was, Car Rentals.... :facepalm:
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Younger people, like those in those age categories, like to explore the world and discover what it is they can accomplish. They strive to find their place in life. How do you do this?....You go out and go places, you go out and experience the world, you don't just stay put at home and worry.
The younger crowds are the ones that are not going to take this, as they are young, wild, and free.
So what do the younger crowds do when the country opens, they traveled and explored the country. Being young and wanting to explore all the world has to offer.
I feel that travel and desire could play a role in the <30 crowd catching the virus.
I don't know what the proper terminology is, but at that age, up to about 25 or so, there are differences in the brain in terms of risk awareness and risk tolerance. This isn't new, and is fairly well documented.
Oh, okay. Is this a reason why you can't get Car Insurance until you turn 25?
?? I was insured at 16. It's illegal to drive without it.
Insurance is more than it is when you're 25.
I guess what I mean is...Is this a reason why the rates go down for car insurance when you're 25?
Not sure about where you live (insurance is regulated by state, so some rules are different state to state), but here in NC there is no magic "age 25" rule.
Most people start driving around 16, and for the first three years the premiums are, well, very high, to say the least.
But it has nothing to do with the actual age. It has to do with being an inexperienced driver. If you waited to get your license until you were 25, you would be facing those same exorbitant rates for your first 3 years of driving. Because a first-time driver aged 25 has no more experience than a first-time driver aged 16.
Assuming you have no accidents, and depending on the vehicle you drive, your rates should come down dramatically after your first three years.
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Speaking of being corrected, Chad will be happy to know I humbly acknowledge I was wrong. My county is instituting a mask directive (it's not a mandate any longer...) for anyone over 5 in any indoor facility. Didn't think it would come to pass,and certainly not my county being the first in the state.
I take no pleasure in being right about this ... I just knew that the optimism you (and others - here and elsewhere) had about the end of 'Rona Restrictions was misplaced - I'd lived through it already up here, and the virus doesn't care about borders ;)
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I had to have a vaccination record in grade school.
I had to have a vaccination record where I worked in Michigan for public utilities.
I had to have a vaccination record when I worked at Johns Hopkins Hospital.
If I was lacking, I had to get the shots.
Thank goodness!!!!!! :laugh:
So, I got both of my C19 shots earlier this year. I still wear a mask, but I 'breathe' easier. Better than a neighbor who got it six months ago, through no fault of his own. He can finally walk to the end of his driveway without a walker. That after two months with an intubator down his throat, and two months on oxygen.
A month ago, long delayed, my wife and I finally got the first of our two shingles shots. MO FO !!!! That shot, and the next two days, hurt like hell!!!!!
In the meantime, I just want to shop and dine and go to ball games and concerts.....masked, and mostly safe. At least I know I won't add to the emergency wards, and possibly die, if I get this killer.
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We've been pretty much shopping and dining.
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We've been pretty much shopping and dining.
I've lived life like there is nothing going on the last 3 months. Been to multiple concerts, some very large ones. Just flew across country to LA. If I get sick, I get sick. There's basically nothing I can do at this point. I got vaccinated, I play by the rules. I'm not going to live my depressed stay at home life like in 2020 if I don't have to.
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We've been pretty much shopping and dining.
I've lived life like there is nothing going on the last 3 months. Been to multiple concerts, some very large ones. Just flew across country to LA. If I get sick, I get sick. There's basically nothing I can do at this point. I got vaccinated, I play by the rules. I'm not going to live my depressed stay at home life like in 2020 if I don't have to.
Precisely, people are wanting to live out their lives and explore all the world has to offer. A lot of young people are having this mindset that Cram is.
Vaccinated or not, you're still going to catch it. Like it or not, it's been shown how impossible it is to get where the "experts" want and to eradicate it. The problem lies with how it spreads and how much our species has developed travel. If we are the vectors, we shouldn't be travelling as much as we do if it's about stopping the spread.
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Yeah, we just flew across country too.
I feel like restrictions are going to tighten up as companies try and cover their asses. I actually think it'll be a miracle if the DT tour goes on as planned.
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We've been pretty much shopping and dining.
I've lived life like there is nothing going on the last 3 months. Been to multiple concerts, some very large ones. Just flew across country to LA. If I get sick, I get sick. There's basically nothing I can do at this point. I got vaccinated, I play by the rules. I'm not going to live my depressed stay at home life like in 2020 if I don't have to.
I concur. I didn't think I was going to go to a concert, this year, and had little desires to buy tickets, but since I see shows pop up and as tickets go on sale, I think, "Ok, if people are smart about this, it should be safe to go. I'm vaccinated and also play by the guidelines. If the shows get delayed, oh well. I should either get a refund or go to the postponed show. No worries." I've lived like a hermit more or less my entire life with some exceptions. I'm going to roll with it and follow the mandated rules and if I don't feel well, I'll take the steps needed to get better. Simple as that.
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Yeah, we just flew across country too.
I feel like restrictions are going to tighten up as companies try and cover their asses. I actually think it'll be a miracle if the DT tour goes on as planned.
I wonder if it all comes down to how much the bands follow through with social distancing while on tour. Which is probably really tough. Like do they (not DT) still party and whatnot? Do they interact with fans? Are they vaccinated?
I get the feeling the tours are going to at least try and go, but can easily be shut down if there is a positive case on the tour crew. Which makes me happy that in two weeks I'll go to the first 311 show of the tour. They seem to be pretty positive that it's going to happen so that first date looks like a lock, but the second half of the tour? Who knows what will happen.
Also, so far all concerts I've attended have been outdoors besides the Foo Fighters which required proof of vaccination to get in. (and someone on their crew or band tested positive afterwards which made them postpone the LA show) I've yet to go to an indoor concert without having to provide proof. That is going to make things interesting. As of now, I don't think it will stop me. Those shows start up in September for me. Will have to play it by ear.
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I still don't understand if a tour crew tests positive, why a tour would have to be shut down. Can't they figure out how to quarantine the guy?
Like I mentioned, I see no reason why an asymptomatic performer can't perform socially distant.
I see Lynyrd Skynyrd postponed 4 shows because Ricky Medlocke tested positive, but it they also mentioned he was home "recovering", so I get that at least.
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Chad, it was more along the lines of political leaders having the will to institute measures, not whether or not they would be necessary.
I've been living my life as "normal" as possible since I went back to work last June. Outside of my elder daughter who was remote learning for a year, not much changed in my life. But I am mostly content to be a homebody. I do feel bad we can't take the kids to as many places as we otherwise would.
I am currently on my second vacation involving air travel. Masks aside, it doesn't feel any different than it would have in 2019.
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I still don't understand if a tour crew tests positive, why a tour would have to be shut down. Can't they figure out how to quarantine the guy?
Because of the unknown. It might not be a few days until they know he didn't spread it to others. If they remove the positive person, and perform a show, there's a chance of spreading to a lot more people. I *think* that's the reason. I really don't know though, it seems a lot of these rules are being made up on the fly. A lot of it is "an abundance of caution". I just got an email today saying an upcoming concert is NOW going to be vaccinated or negative test only. So these things are changing as we go. I'm not surprised by this. I think everyone in the business is going to do as much as possible to get the shows to happen, but also can't get wreckless with it and end up forcing everything to shut down. It's a fine line being walked.
I am currently on my second vacation involving air travel. Masks aside, it doesn't feel any different than it would have in 2019.
Yeah, other than the mask, it's really no different at least domestically. I think you need a negative test to return to the country though. Also, the delays and short staffs are still an issue with some airports/airlines. I didn't see any of that today from my experience but I was at two of the busiest airports so it's not surprising if they are mostly staffed.
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Yeah, we just flew across country too.
I feel like restrictions are going to tighten up as companies try and cover their asses. I actually think it'll be a miracle if the DT tour goes on as planned.
I wonder if it all comes down to how much the bands follow through with social distancing while on tour. Which is probably really tough. Like do they (not DT) still party and whatnot? Do they interact with fans? Are they vaccinated?
I get the feeling the tours are going to at least try and go, but can easily be shut down if there is a positive case on the tour crew. Which makes me happy that in two weeks I'll go to the first 311 show of the tour. They seem to be pretty positive that it's going to happen so that first date looks like a lock, but the second half of the tour? Who knows what will happen.
Also, so far all concerts I've attended have been outdoors besides the Foo Fighters which required proof of vaccination to get in. (and someone on their crew or band tested positive afterwards which made them postpone the LA show) I've yet to go to an indoor concert without having to provide proof. That is going to make things interesting. As of now, I don't think it will stop me. Those shows start up in September for me. Will have to play it by ear.
And yet even though that Foo Fighters crew/member tested positive, they still played here. I didn't go cause I do not like Foo Fighters.
Which gives hope that regardless of a positive test/case the show will go on, only certain shows will be affected.
Which also, shows that it likely wasn't anyone important enough to affect the entire Foo Fighters tour.
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No, that positive was from a month or so ago. They didn't play again until the band/crew were recovered.
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No, that positive was from a month or so ago. They didn't play again until the band/crew were recovered.
Again, it gives hope that these won't affect the tour, only certain shows.
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No, that positive was from a month or so ago. They didn't play again until the band/crew were recovered.
Again, it gives hope that these won't affect the tour, only certain shows.
They didn't really have a tour, just scattered dates. But yes, a lot of bands are still finding ways to continue. The Green Day tour isn't stopping but Fall Out Boy missed a bunch of shows because of a positive. Some tours are finding ways, some can't.
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A band I saw just two weeks ago is cancelling stuff now.
(https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/p843x403/227582337_387329466081726_4842387111689110236_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-4&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=tjrsd8k0VW4AX_yUvbW&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=17f4f9307679e80d3a814ab168cd9aa3&oe=61397BF4)
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On June 2nd our small county was at 2 cases, today we hit 100.
I guess the only silver lining I can think of is that it will eventually run through the population for better or worse......
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On June 2nd our small county was at 2 cases, today we hit 100.
I guess the only silver lining I can think of is that it will eventually run through the population for better or worse......
If you don't mind me asking, where are you from?? And apologies if you've stated it before, and I missed or have forgotten.
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Just tested negative for the antibodies (I was surprised)... I will be getting the first dose tomorrow of Pfzier.
I took the antibody test as a precursor to try and be prepared for a possible rough-go after the second dose; I've had some friends have issues after the second dose when antibodies have been present pre-vaccine (one of which has had a very rare side effect involving the vision center of his brain). Just covering as many bases as I can and making the most informed decision that I can. It would be nice to see all the data available without the polarization, but I think I've seen enough to make my own decision.
I'm only 41 and in what I feel is very good shape, so we'll see. One of the personal data points that helped me decide is the situation with my wife's cousin... early 50s, non-smoker, healthy, and with no underlying conditions known was diagnosed 10-days ago with COVID. He is now on a vent and struggling mightily; he coughed so frequent and so hard that somehow a small hole formed in his intestine (had to have emergency surgery for that).
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I had my second dose today, and it's been quite mild on the symptoms. Mostly local inflammation. Glad to be finally vaccinated though.
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I got my 2nd Pfizer shot in the middle of January and am starting to wonder just how much protection I currently have as this Delta variant is starting to wreak havoc.
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I got my 2nd Pfizer shot in the middle of January and am starting to wonder just how much protection I currently have as this Delta variant is starting to wreak havoc.
It seems that you should be ok unless you're quite old and have a preexisting condition.
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On June 2nd our small county was at 2 cases, today we hit 100.
I guess the only silver lining I can think of is that it will eventually run through the population for better or worse......
If you don't mind me asking, where are you from?? And apologies if you've stated it before, and I missed or have forgotten.
I live in Mid-Missouri near Jefferson City. Our county has a population of about 17K. Certainly not as severe as other parts of the nation but enough to keep me from venturing out. I will say that no one gives anyone a hassle if they are wearing a mask.
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I got my 2nd Pfizer shot in the middle of January and am starting to wonder just how much protection I currently have as this Delta variant is starting to wreak havoc.
Protection from Symptomatic Covid is between 60-85% depending on what source you trust, protection from hospitalisation is 96%.
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Ontario is starting to report cases/hospitalizations/ICU by vax status now as well, so that will give some much needed insight of the real impacts beyond just test positivity.
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I see so many friends on DTF from other countries just getting their 2nd shot and it makes me sad here in America because we had a leg up to beat this virus down but so many are not getting the vaccine.
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I see so many friends on DTF from other countries just getting their 2nd shot and it makes me sad here in America because we had a leg up to beat this virus down but so many are not getting the vaccine.
That's what happens when you have a country adamant about peoples liberty and freedoms.
You can't have both security and freedoms. You have to trade one for the other.
For protection and safety from anything, you need to give up your personal freedoms for the other to protect you and to keep you safe. If you want freedom, you are left to your own defenses for security and protection.
This is where the dilemma lies as people want freedom and the ability to think for themselves and fend for themselves while others want the dependency on the other to protect them and keep them safe, which means you are not responsible for your own safety and you therefore do not think for yourself as the other thinks for you and determines what is safe for you and others it must protect and keep safe.
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The company I work for announced this morning they are requiring vaccination. My team is all fully vaxxed, so no biggie for us, but I expect this will kind of force the hand of a lot of people. I've got no issue with it.
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The company I work for announced this morning they are requiring vaccination. My team is all fully vaxxed, so no biggie for us, but I expect this will kind of force the hand of a lot of people. I've got no issue with it.
So then people are being forced to get this. And by using their livelihoods as collateral. You just said, force of hand which is force.
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The company I work for announced this morning they are requiring vaccination. My team is all fully vaxxed, so no biggie for us, but I expect this will kind of force the hand of a lot of people. I've got no issue with it.
So then people are being forced to get this. And by using their livelihoods as collateral. You just said, force of hand which is force.
They aren't being forced. They're free to walk away. They aren't being "forced" to get vaxxed any more than I'm being "forced" to put on pants and leather shoes in the morning to go to my office.
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The company I work for announced this morning they are requiring vaccination. My team is all fully vaxxed, so no biggie for us, but I expect this will kind of force the hand of a lot of people. I've got no issue with it.
So then people are being forced to get this. And by using their livelihoods as collateral. You just said, force of hand which is force.
They aren't being forced. They're free to walk away. They aren't being "forced" to get vaxxed any more than I'm being "forced" to put on pants and leather shoes in the morning to go to my office.
I'm usually a personal liberty guy, but I'm with Chino. You have the RIGHT to pursue happiness, but you have no RIGHT to your job, and certainly not with any company. I have no problem if they make that a requirement for hire, any more than I do any other requirement for employment (drug free, for example). If you don't like that condition, you can apply elsewhere.
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I think that once Pfizer gets the FDA nod, many people on the fence (as I was) will go ahead and get poked. I'd calculate that we'll also see more corporate mandates when Pfizer is fully approved.
We (society I mean) should be able to review the data openly, without any slant of agenda from the providers of that data, and make our own individual decisions. I'm personally not that hot on mandates, but it is what it is. As harsh as it is, Chino is right... people are free to walk away if they feel that strongly. It's not as if non-vax are being threatened with legal or government action. Yet.
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The company I work for announced this morning they are requiring vaccination. My team is all fully vaxxed, so no biggie for us, but I expect this will kind of force the hand of a lot of people. I've got no issue with it.
So then people are being forced to get this. And by using their livelihoods as collateral. You just said, force of hand which is force.
I may have used the words forced the hand, but that's because some people will value their job more. No one is actually forced. They have every right to protect their employees. In the e-mail, it also said after discussing with experts, they expect variant waves to be normal for years to come. They will also be setting up shot clinics in the bigger offices and have nurses in those bigger offices to provide tests on site for those who may be feeling sick. It just looks like they are trying to set up for the "new normal". All this is simple, get the jab. I'm totally good with this decision and the extra mile they are going with making it simple to get the jab and have nurses on site. (none of this really applies to me, I work remotely and not in any of our office buildings)
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I think that once Pfizer gets the FDA nod, many people on the fence (as I was) will go ahead and get poked. I'd calculate that we'll also see more corporate mandates when Pfizer is fully approved.
We (society I mean) should be able to review the data openly, without any slant of agenda from the providers of that data, and make our own individual decisions. I'm personally not that hot on mandates, but it is what it is. As harsh as it is, Chino is right... people are free to walk away if they feel that strongly. It's not as if non-vax are being threatened with legal or government action. Yet.
I'm not so sure it will influence a lot of individuals, but it'll surely give the green light for a great deal of companies and institutions on the fence.
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I see so many friends on DTF from other countries just getting their 2nd shot and it makes me sad here in America because we had a leg up to beat this virus down but so many are not getting the vaccine.
That's what happens when you have a country adamant about peoples liberty and freedoms.
You can't have both security and freedoms. You have to trade one for the other.
For protection and safety from anything, you need to give up your personal freedoms for the other to protect you and to keep you safe. If you want freedom, you are left to your own defenses for security and protection.
This is where the dilemma lies as people want freedom and the ability to think for themselves and fend for themselves while others want the dependency on the other to protect them and keep them safe, which means you are not responsible for your own safety and you therefore do not think for yourself as the other thinks for you and determines what is safe for you and others it must protect and keep safe.
No it's plain ignorance Ben. Most are educated enough to do real homework not listen to their slanted figureheads who politicize it.
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I'd calculate that we'll also see more corporate mandates when Pfizer is fully approved.
I think you're right.
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I see so many friends on DTF from other countries just getting their 2nd shot and it makes me sad here in America because we had a leg up to beat this virus down but so many are not getting the vaccine.
That's what happens when you have a country adamant about peoples liberty and freedoms.
You can't have both security and freedoms. You have to trade one for the other.
For protection and safety from anything, you need to give up your personal freedoms for the other to protect you and to keep you safe. If you want freedom, you are left to your own defenses for security and protection.
This is where the dilemma lies as people want freedom and the ability to think for themselves and fend for themselves while others want the dependency on the other to protect them and keep them safe, which means you are not responsible for your own safety and you therefore do not think for yourself as the other thinks for you and determines what is safe for you and others it must protect and keep safe.
No it's plain ignorance Ben. Most are educated enough to do real homework not listen to their slanted figureheads who politicize it.
But King, while you are right in theory, that's not how it plays out. 95% of the conversations in the P/R thread have some element of people NOT doing their homework, or not caring. We wouldn't be the divisive country we are right now if the majority of people WERE doing their real homework. It'd be as obvious as the tongue in Gene Simmon's mouth that the world and it's issues don't resolve around lines of two arbitrary political parties in the U.S., but that's how some people still operate. No real objective analysis, no real homework would EVER resolve down to "I'm on the right side of history, and the other side is deplorable"/"I'm on the side of freedom and liberty, and the other side are a bunch of pantywaist lib-tards".
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WTF is wrong with people?
Threatening doctors?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/arguments-break-out-in-tenn-parking-lot-as-parents-grow-heated-over-school-mask-mandate/ar-AANfCx3?li=BBnbfcL
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I think that once Pfizer gets the FDA nod, many people on the fence (as I was) will go ahead and get poked. I'd calculate that we'll also see more corporate mandates when Pfizer is fully approved.
We (society I mean) should be able to review the data openly, without any slant of agenda from the providers of that data, and make our own individual decisions. I'm personally not that hot on mandates, but it is what it is. As harsh as it is, Chino is right... people are free to walk away if they feel that strongly. It's not as if non-vax are being threatened with legal or government action. Yet.
I guess we'll find out how it will go...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/australia-s-capital-canberra-enters-snap-lockdown-sydney-tighten-covid-n1276622
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WTF is wrong with people?
Threatening doctors?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/arguments-break-out-in-tenn-parking-lot-as-parents-grow-heated-over-school-mask-mandate/ar-AANfCx3?li=BBnbfcL
I know one thing. They are definitely not deplorable.
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I think that once Pfizer gets the FDA nod, many people on the fence (as I was) will go ahead and get poked. I'd calculate that we'll also see more corporate mandates when Pfizer is fully approved.
We (society I mean) should be able to review the data openly, without any slant of agenda from the providers of that data, and make our own individual decisions. I'm personally not that hot on mandates, but it is what it is. As harsh as it is, Chino is right... people are free to walk away if they feel that strongly. It's not as if non-vax are being threatened with legal or government action. Yet.
I guess we'll find out how it will go...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/australia-s-capital-canberra-enters-snap-lockdown-sydney-tighten-covid-n1276622
Wow... I don't believe those numbers justify that.
I think that once Pfizer gets the FDA nod, many people on the fence (as I was) will go ahead and get poked. I'd calculate that we'll also see more corporate mandates when Pfizer is fully approved.
We (society I mean) should be able to review the data openly, without any slant of agenda from the providers of that data, and make our own individual decisions. I'm personally not that hot on mandates, but it is what it is. As harsh as it is, Chino is right... people are free to walk away if they feel that strongly. It's not as if non-vax are being threatened with legal or government action. Yet.
I'm not so sure it will influence a lot of individuals, but it'll surely give the green light for a great deal of companies and institutions on the fence.
After digging a bit myself (not much real info) and talking to my Doc (who I hang out with socially and play golf and basketball with), I felt that I had enough info to go ahead with it. To be sure, my doc didn't try to sway me; he just gave me the stats he sees and the Pfizer info (efficacy and some new info about Delta specific boosters). I appreciated that (he knows that I'm detail oriented and open-minded).
Maybe I'm optimistic, but I feel that if the raw information were readily available without political slant (or social slant, etc) and some person in a position of authority somewhere would calmly say something like "take a hard look at this information we're providing to you and decide for yourself and for your family" maybe more people would decide to actually think about it, instead of just digesting someone else's opinion.
I'd calculate that we'll also see more corporate mandates when Pfizer is fully approved.
I think you're right.
I'm hearing the whispers from our lenders/underwriters about mandates coming for in-office employees. We'll see a BIG wave after Pfizer gets full approval I'd bet. And we'll probably see an even bigger wave of lines in the sand "You're wrong, I'm right" types of conversations. I'd love to hear a vax discussion without vitriol in the public arena.
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I see so many friends on DTF from other countries just getting their 2nd shot and it makes me sad here in America because we had a leg up to beat this virus down but so many are not getting the vaccine.
That's what happens when you have a country adamant about peoples liberty and freedoms.
You can't have both security and freedoms. You have to trade one for the other.
For protection and safety from anything, you need to give up your personal freedoms for the other to protect you and to keep you safe. If you want freedom, you are left to your own defenses for security and protection.
This is where the dilemma lies as people want freedom and the ability to think for themselves and fend for themselves while others want the dependency on the other to protect them and keep them safe, which means you are not responsible for your own safety and you therefore do not think for yourself as the other thinks for you and determines what is safe for you and others it must protect and keep safe.
No it's plain ignorance Ben. Most are educated enough to do real homework not listen to their slanted figureheads who politicize it.
But King, while you are right in theory, that's not how it plays out. 95% of the conversations in the P/R thread have some element of people NOT doing their homework, or not caring. We wouldn't be the divisive country we are right now if the majority of people WERE doing their real homework. It'd be as obvious as the tongue in Gene Simmon's mouth that the world and it's issues don't resolve around lines of two arbitrary political parties in the U.S., but that's how some people still operate. No real objective analysis, no real homework would EVER resolve down to "I'm on the right side of history, and the other side is deplorable"/"I'm on the side of freedom and liberty, and the other side are a bunch of pantywaist lib-tards".
No, I get it. It's the damn world we live in these days.
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I see so many friends on DTF from other countries just getting their 2nd shot and it makes me sad here in America because we had a leg up to beat this virus down but so many are not getting the vaccine.
We're all gonna be hitting some kind of wall eventually. Maybe not as big as the American wall, but Europe is still packed with people who are either active deniers or plain just don't give a shit. How many, we'll just have to wait and see, since everyone's lagging numbers are tied to waiting (I have more than a month to my second dose) more than people refusing the vaccine, but just from anecdotes, we'll be going into fall still trying to plead with people to take advantage of this privilege instead of just hitting them with restrictions outright.
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But King, while you are right in theory,
In theory, communism works*
Our CEO told the company earlier this week that (at the moment**) vaccines are not a condition of employment, but lack of vaccination may result in limitations on what some can do, what roles can be performed, and where they may/may not be able to work. We're still in a "voluntary work from anywhere" policy, until January at least.
*as a (non practicing) economist, this is my standard response every time I hear "in theory" :biggrin:
** my addition
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It's infuriating. There are parts of this world where people would do just about anything to get their communities vaccinated, and just the other day I read that Alabama tossed SIXTYFIVE THOUSAND doses that were due to expire because people don't want to get them.
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You have the RIGHT to pursue happiness, but you have no RIGHT to your job, and certainly not with any company.
Not true in my case. Which makes it interesting in that the state is requiring proof of vaccination or mandatory testing. The legal ramifications are quite interesting.
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I see so many friends on DTF from other countries just getting their 2nd shot and it makes me sad here in America because we had a leg up to beat this virus down but so many are not getting the vaccine.
We're all gonna be hitting some kind of wall eventually. Maybe not as big as the American wall, but Europe is still packed with people who are either active deniers or plain just don't give a shit. How many, we'll just have to wait and see, since everyone's lagging numbers are tied to waiting (I have more than a month to my second dose) more than people refusing the vaccine, but just from anecdotes, we'll be going into fall still trying to plead with people to take advantage of this privilege instead of just hitting them with restrictions outright.
Mora, you live in Norway, right? I know folks are getting their second shots earlier than first planned in a lot of cities around the country. You could try calling or e-mailng your vaccination centre and ask if they can re-schedule your appointment. The worst that can happen is you get a 'sorry, no can do'. :)
Cases are increasing rather fast here, but overall numbers are still fairly low. Government are suggesting returning to 'normality' by late September, when all 18+ are fully vaccinated. God, I hope it will work out.
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I think that once Pfizer gets the FDA nod, many people on the fence (as I was) will go ahead and get poked. I'd calculate that we'll also see more corporate mandates when Pfizer is fully approved.
We (society I mean) should be able to review the data openly, without any slant of agenda from the providers of that data, and make our own individual decisions. I'm personally not that hot on mandates, but it is what it is. As harsh as it is, Chino is right... people are free to walk away if they feel that strongly. It's not as if non-vax are being threatened with legal or government action. Yet.
I guess we'll find out how it will go...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/australia-s-capital-canberra-enters-snap-lockdown-sydney-tighten-covid-n1276622
Wow... I don't believe those numbers justify that.
I think that once Pfizer gets the FDA nod, many people on the fence (as I was) will go ahead and get poked. I'd calculate that we'll also see more corporate mandates when Pfizer is fully approved.
We (society I mean) should be able to review the data openly, without any slant of agenda from the providers of that data, and make our own individual decisions. I'm personally not that hot on mandates, but it is what it is. As harsh as it is, Chino is right... people are free to walk away if they feel that strongly. It's not as if non-vax are being threatened with legal or government action. Yet.
I'm not so sure it will influence a lot of individuals, but it'll surely give the green light for a great deal of companies and institutions on the fence.
After digging a bit myself (not much real info) and talking to my Doc (who I hang out with socially and play golf and basketball with), I felt that I had enough info to go ahead with it. To be sure, my doc didn't try to sway me; he just gave me the stats he sees and the Pfizer info (efficacy and some new info about Delta specific boosters). I appreciated that (he knows that I'm detail oriented and open-minded).
Maybe I'm optimistic, but I feel that if the raw information were readily available without political slant (or social slant, etc) and some person in a position of authority somewhere would calmly say something like "take a hard look at this information we're providing to you and decide for yourself and for your family" maybe more people would decide to actually think about it, instead of just digesting someone else's opinion.
I'd calculate that we'll also see more corporate mandates when Pfizer is fully approved.
I think you're right.
I'm hearing the whispers from our lenders/underwriters about mandates coming for in-office employees. We'll see a BIG wave after Pfizer gets full approval I'd bet. And we'll probably see an even bigger wave of lines in the sand "You're wrong, I'm right" types of conversations. I'd love to hear a vax discussion without vitriol in the public arena.
People are looking at all the data and coming to the decision they do not want the vaccine. People are assuming these people are not taking the vaccine because of political or some other influenced opinions. Even if the leaders were to have told people this, those people would still likely come to the same conclusion and decision not to take it.
I also agree with you on the approval. I personally think a lot of people are waiting until it does get FDA approval. As when it does get FDA approved, that means they went through all the trials and tests to make sure this vaccine product is beneficial. Some people are waiting for the final stamp of approval.
And this is one reason I am sure did not help convince people to take this vaccine....
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html
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You have the RIGHT to pursue happiness, but you have no RIGHT to your job, and certainly not with any company.
Not true in my case. Which makes it interesting in that the state is requiring proof of vaccination or mandatory testing. The legal ramifications are quite interesting.
Just read that N.O. government is making it mandatory to get into certain events with proof of vaccine.
It will be interesting to see who does this state to state.
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The company I work for announced this morning they are requiring vaccination. My team is all fully vaxxed, so no biggie for us, but I expect this will kind of force the hand of a lot of people. I've got no issue with it.
So then people are being forced to get this. And by using their livelihoods as collateral. You just said, force of hand which is force.
They aren't being forced. They're free to walk away. They aren't being "forced" to get vaxxed any more than I'm being "forced" to put on pants and leather shoes in the morning to go to my office.
I'm usually a personal liberty guy, but I'm with Chino. You have the RIGHT to pursue happiness, but you have no RIGHT to your job, and certainly not with any company. I have no problem if they make that a requirement for hire, any more than I do any other requirement for employment (drug free, for example). If you don't like that condition, you can apply elsewhere.
I am with you and Chino. :tup :tup
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Man who literally lives under a rock nevertheless gets vaccinated:
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210813-serbian-cave-hermit-gets-covid-19-jab-urges-others-to-follow
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Man who literally lives under a rock nevertheless gets vaccinated:
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210813-serbian-cave-hermit-gets-covid-19-jab-urges-others-to-follow
:lol but seriously, the virus has found its way to remote tribes in the amazon.
Also, I posted this in the Iron Maiden thread but I think Bruce Dickinsons words are important:
Bruce said he took a lateral-flow COVID test after he started feeling like he was getting a cold, and it came back positive. "I thought, 'Oh well, shit,'" he said. "I was kind of sneezing a bit. For a couple of days, I felt a bit groggy, kind of like the flu, and that was it. And I'm 63 years old. I've pretty much got no doubt that had I not had the vaccine, I could be in serious trouble."
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/iron-maidens-bruce-dickinson-tests-positive-for-covid-19-after-being-fully-vaccinated/ (https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/iron-maidens-bruce-dickinson-tests-positive-for-covid-19-after-being-fully-vaccinated/)
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There's no real point to this, because I'm not sure what the point should be, and above all, I am a "full truth, warts and all" kind of guy so I would never say "don't say this"... but I can't help but thinking that the "I could have been worse off" message is lost in the din of "I got COVID even though I was fully vaccinated". It's like the retraction of the front page story that appears four days later on page 16. The numbers are STAGGERINGLY in favor of NOT getting COVID if you've got the vaccine, but nonetheless, I can't help but think that the idea that "I could still get it even with the jab, and at least my DNA won't be scrambled eggs" is just entrenching those who are hesitant.
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There's no real point to this, because I'm not sure what the point should be, and above all, I am a "full truth, warts and all" kind of guy so I would never say "don't say this"... but I can't help but thinking that the "I could have been worse off" message is lost in the din of "I got COVID even though I was fully vaccinated". It's like the retraction of the front page story that appears four days later on page 16. The numbers are STAGGERINGLY in favor of NOT getting COVID if you've got the vaccine, but nonetheless, I can't help but think that the idea that "I could still get it even with the jab, and at least my DNA won't be scrambled eggs" is just entrenching those who are hesitant.
Yeah, that quote is buried in the article, not in the headline. I agree, it's important to note that part of the story for those who get covid while fully vaxxed.
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There's no real point to this, because I'm not sure what the point should be, and above all, I am a "full truth, warts and all" kind of guy so I would never say "don't say this"... but I can't help but thinking that the "I could have been worse off" message is lost in the din of "I got COVID even though I was fully vaccinated". It's like the retraction of the front page story that appears four days later on page 16. The numbers are STAGGERINGLY in favor of NOT getting COVID if you've got the vaccine, but nonetheless, I can't help but think that the idea that "I could still get it even with the jab, and at least my DNA won't be scrambled eggs" is just entrenching those who are hesitant.
It defies logic though, doesn't it? It's like saying "I got in a motorcycle accident, and only got a mild concussion thanks to my helmet", and someone's reaction being "well, if I'm gonna get a concussion anyway, what's the point of wearing a helmet?"
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(https://i.imgur.com/MCaYIPQ.jpg)
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There's no real point to this, because I'm not sure what the point should be, and above all, I am a "full truth, warts and all" kind of guy so I would never say "don't say this"... but I can't help but thinking that the "I could have been worse off" message is lost in the din of "I got COVID even though I was fully vaccinated". It's like the retraction of the front page story that appears four days later on page 16. The numbers are STAGGERINGLY in favor of NOT getting COVID if you've got the vaccine, but nonetheless, I can't help but think that the idea that "I could still get it even with the jab, and at least my DNA won't be scrambled eggs" is just entrenching those who are hesitant.
It defies logic though, doesn't it? It's like saying "I got in a motorcycle accident, and only got a mild concussion thanks to my helmet", and someone's reaction being "well, if I'm gonna get a concussion anyway, what's the point of wearing a helmet?"
And yet people do just that.
I hit a tree head on at about 65 mph when I was 21, totaled the car and walked away. I was not wearing a seatbelt, and even though I was almost stabbed by the gear shift lever, I rolled to the side and curled up and survived. I didn't wear a seatbelt with any regularity (unless I had to) for almost 15 years. I wear one regularly now, but that's almost entirely due to my kid, not any experience I had. I know I'm not "everyman" but the psychology is similar; as I've said countless times, we - humans - are not good at judging relative risk.
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There's no real point to this, because I'm not sure what the point should be, and above all, I am a "full truth, warts and all" kind of guy so I would never say "don't say this"... but I can't help but thinking that the "I could have been worse off" message is lost in the din of "I got COVID even though I was fully vaccinated". It's like the retraction of the front page story that appears four days later on page 16. The numbers are STAGGERINGLY in favor of NOT getting COVID if you've got the vaccine, but nonetheless, I can't help but think that the idea that "I could still get it even with the jab, and at least my DNA won't be scrambled eggs" is just entrenching those who are hesitant.
It defies logic though, doesn't it? It's like saying "I got in a motorcycle accident, and only got a mild concussion thanks to my helmet", and someone's reaction being "well, if I'm gonna get a concussion anyway, what's the point of wearing a helmet?"
And yet people do just that.
I hit a tree head on at about 65 mph when I was 21, totaled the car and walked away. I was not wearing a seatbelt, and even though I was almost stabbed by the gear shift lever, I rolled to the side and curled up and survived. I didn't wear a seatbelt with any regularity (unless I had to) for almost 15 years. I wear one regularly now, but that's almost entirely due to my kid, not any experience I had. I know I'm not "everyman" but the psychology is similar; as I've said countless times, we - humans - are not good at judging relative risk.
And with that, you've just killed any argument in the future that is based on your personal judgment. :lol
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:lol
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There's no real point to this, because I'm not sure what the point should be, and above all, I am a "full truth, warts and all" kind of guy so I would never say "don't say this"... but I can't help but thinking that the "I could have been worse off" message is lost in the din of "I got COVID even though I was fully vaccinated". It's like the retraction of the front page story that appears four days later on page 16. The numbers are STAGGERINGLY in favor of NOT getting COVID if you've got the vaccine, but nonetheless, I can't help but think that the idea that "I could still get it even with the jab, and at least my DNA won't be scrambled eggs" is just entrenching those who are hesitant.
It defies logic though, doesn't it? It's like saying "I got in a motorcycle accident, and only got a mild concussion thanks to my helmet", and someone's reaction being "well, if I'm gonna get a concussion anyway, what's the point of wearing a helmet?"
And yet people do just that.
I hit a tree head on at about 65 mph when I was 21, totaled the car and walked away. I was not wearing a seatbelt, and even though I was almost stabbed by the gear shift lever, I rolled to the side and curled up and survived. I didn't wear a seatbelt with any regularity (unless I had to) for almost 15 years. I wear one regularly now, but that's almost entirely due to my kid, not any experience I had. I know I'm not "everyman" but the psychology is similar; as I've said countless times, we - humans - are not good at judging relative risk.
Is it similar to how people wait till the last minute to actually go see a doctor to find out it's too late, and if they were to have assessed the risk earlier and went in at that first sign of discomfort or pain, the doctor may have been able to prevent the situation from becoming a long-term health issue, like one that makes people susceptible to covid-19 and it's variants.
It's why it's important to be pointing the finger at yourself first before you point it at anyone else. I for one do not expect anything from anyone. If I want it, I'll do it, but I will be one to admit that most of the times it comes to laziness and not having the drive to strive. I'd rather be at home with all the comforts that surround me in the square box on the ground. What's the consequence? Things don't get done, and things get left to wither. This was me a year ago before I stopped drinking, and even smoking cigarettes. Now, I am out there more so than before, I am gardening, walking outside more, and even beginning to eat more nutritiously and I am noticing a difference, I am finding I can not eat spicy foods as much anymore as I get discomfort after eating these foods, and this was the damage I chose to do to myself from drinking excessive amounts of alcohol.
See here, I am accepting that it is from my own volition that I did this to myself, that no one else was to blame but me. I am accepting the consequences for my past decisions. If I ended up being more susceptible to many forms of illness, I am not blaming anyone else if my health ends up getting bad, I am not blaming anyone If I do end up getting Covid-19 and dying.
It's great and all that you do care for me and don't want me to die. But, I do not need that care, as I am capable of caring for myself. What I also do have is compassion and will embrace that care you do have for me, I respect that and admire it.
What many people are doing is trying to find some thing/person to place some blame of catching covid-19. Why? Why must someone be blamed for it? Why not self-reflect and say something like "wow, I guess I wasn't healthy as I thought and not as invincible as I figured."
I say this because I am finding that there are many, many, many different reasons for why people chose to take the vaccine and why people decided not to. It's a lot more than simply being, as Stads puts it, Black and White, Right and Left, Caring for another and not caring for another.
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See here, I am accepting that it is from my own volition that I did this to myself, that no one else was to blame but me. I am accepting the consequences for my past decisions. If I ended up being more susceptible to many forms of illness, I am not blaming anyone else if my health ends up getting bad, I am not blaming anyone If I do end up getting Covid-19 and dying.
I can't speak for anywhere else, but in America, in 2021, you are distinctly in the minority. We are fast evolving into a victim culture, where EVERYTHING that isn't optimal has to be attributable to something (preferably something we can point at the government to "stop").
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This little interaction at work the other day made me a bit sad.
A co-worker for fun was doing the "hey, is everyone here vaccinated?" game, and when he casually asked a lady who's been with the company for a few months now if she had been vaccinated, she nicely smiled and said, "I don't discuss politics." The fact that someone took that question as being political is a crying shame.
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This little interaction at work the other day made me a bit sad.
A co-worker for fun was doing the "hey, is everyone here vaccinated?" game, and when he casually asked a lady who's been with the company for a few months now if she had been vaccinated, she nicely smiled and said, "I don't discuss politics." The fact that someone took that question as being political is a crying shame.
Why in the hell would your co-worker do that?
See here, I am accepting that it is from my own volition that I did this to myself, that no one else was to blame but me. I am accepting the consequences for my past decisions. If I ended up being more susceptible to many forms of illness, I am not blaming anyone else if my health ends up getting bad, I am not blaming anyone If I do end up getting Covid-19 and dying.
I can't speak for anywhere else, but in America, in 2021, you are distinctly in the minority. We are fast evolving into a victim culture, where EVERYTHING that isn't optimal has to be attributable to something (preferably something we can point at the government to "stop").
This is what I see. People relying and depending on government to solve issues and problems the people could be solving for themselves. This is not being Independent with liberty and justice for all. It's being over reliant and dependent on government, where you are not independent and can not rely on yourself.
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This little interaction at work the other day made me a bit sad.
A co-worker for fun was doing the "hey, is everyone here vaccinated?" game, and when he casually asked a lady who's been with the company for a few months now if she had been vaccinated, she nicely smiled and said, "I don't discuss politics." The fact that someone took that question as being political is a crying shame.
Why in the hell would your co-worker do that?
Yeah, this!
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This little interaction at work the other day made me a bit sad.
A co-worker for fun was doing the "hey, is everyone here vaccinated?" game, and when he casually asked a lady who's been with the company for a few months now if she had been vaccinated, she nicely smiled and said, "I don't discuss politics." The fact that someone took that question as being political is a crying shame.
Why in the hell would your co-worker do that?
He did it good-naturedly, and gave her reply an "all good" with a smile and thought nothing more of it. And our office has a pretty casual and laid back atmosphere, so I doubt it came off poorly to anyone. I wouldn't have done it, but that kind of "hey, let's poll the room about this, that or the other" is not really my style.
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This little interaction at work the other day made me a bit sad.
A co-worker for fun was doing the "hey, is everyone here vaccinated?" game, and when he casually asked a lady who's been with the company for a few months now if she had been vaccinated, she nicely smiled and said, "I don't discuss politics." The fact that someone took that question as being political is a crying shame.
Why in the hell would your co-worker do that?
He did it good-naturedly, and gave her reply an "all good" with a smile and thought nothing more of it. And our office has a pretty casual and laid back atmosphere, so I doubt it came off poorly to anyone. I wouldn't have done it, but that kind of "hey, let's poll the room about this, that or the other" is not really my style.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56731.0
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56651.0
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56643.0
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56717.0
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56712.0
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=55991.0
:corn
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Haha, I knew that was coming. :lol :lol
Online polls are a bit different than me calling out an entire room in person about something, duh. Go listen to some Winger. :P
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Haha, I knew that was coming. :lol :lol
Online polls are a bit different than me calling out an entire room in person about something, duh. Go listen to some Winger. :P
Don't make this political. :-*
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Some of my closest are not taking the vaccine because of “it’s still in the trial phase” and “you can still get/spread it anyway” and all that. Now we’re entering a phase where they will not be able to go to a concert or sit on a terrace or whatever without having to test (and pay for it themselves).
They’re even referring to it as being “Medical Apartheid” and they’re giving me all sorts of signs that I should be condemning the measures the government is taking. I kind of hate this situation. Arguing with them seems pointless because they only want to convince me I’m wrong.
I almost want to say: quit moaning and just take the damn vaccine and be done with it.
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Haha, I knew that was coming. :lol :lol
Online polls are a bit different than me calling out an entire room in person about something, duh. Go listen to some Winger. :P
Don't make this political. :-*
:rollin :rollin
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Haha, I knew that was coming. :lol :lol
Online polls are a bit different than me calling out an entire room in person about something, duh. Go listen to some Winger. :P
Don't make this political. :-*
:rollin :rollin
I think that one is going to have legs. :)
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See here, I am accepting that it is from my own volition that I did this to myself, that no one else was to blame but me. I am accepting the consequences for my past decisions. If I ended up being more susceptible to many forms of illness, I am not blaming anyone else if my health ends up getting bad, I am not blaming anyone If I do end up getting Covid-19 and dying.
I can't speak for anywhere else, but in America, in 2021, you are distinctly in the minority. We are fast evolving into a victim culture, where EVERYTHING that isn't optimal has to be attributable to something (preferably something we can point at the government to "stop").
And the disabled?
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See here, I am accepting that it is from my own volition that I did this to myself, that no one else was to blame but me. I am accepting the consequences for my past decisions. If I ended up being more susceptible to many forms of illness, I am not blaming anyone else if my health ends up getting bad, I am not blaming anyone If I do end up getting Covid-19 and dying.
I can't speak for anywhere else, but in America, in 2021, you are distinctly in the minority. We are fast evolving into a victim culture, where EVERYTHING that isn't optimal has to be attributable to something (preferably something we can point at the government to "stop").
And the disabled?
I'm sorry? What about the disabled?
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See here, I am accepting that it is from my own volition that I did this to myself, that no one else was to blame but me. I am accepting the consequences for my past decisions. If I ended up being more susceptible to many forms of illness, I am not blaming anyone else if my health ends up getting bad, I am not blaming anyone If I do end up getting Covid-19 and dying.
I can't speak for anywhere else, but in America, in 2021, you are distinctly in the minority. We are fast evolving into a victim culture, where EVERYTHING that isn't optimal has to be attributable to something (preferably something we can point at the government to "stop").
And the disabled?
I'm sorry? What about the disabled?
It's the same question I've asked everybody here who emphasizes the "personal responsibility" angle of COVID.
It's great that Benjamin takes responsibility for his own health, but stopping the spread is about more than just looking out for ourselves. It's about creating an environment where the elderly and disabled as well as other vulnerable populations can get back to living in the level of risk that is more normal for them when there is not a deadly pandemic raging.
If it's my "fault" that I get covid, then it is also my "fault" if I spread it, no? Maybe something to consider before we start with yet another cultural grievance diatribe about "victim culture".
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If it's my "fault" that I get covid, then it is also my "fault" if I spread it, no? Maybe something to consider before we start with yet another cultural grievance diatribe about "victim culture".
Yup. It's more than just yourself. That's why things like obesity, isn't a great example. One person being fat does not make another person sick. We are talking a virus here, that spreads and mutates. If you are only looking at yourself, you don't have a true understanding of how our world works.
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See here, I am accepting that it is from my own volition that I did this to myself, that no one else was to blame but me. I am accepting the consequences for my past decisions. If I ended up being more susceptible to many forms of illness, I am not blaming anyone else if my health ends up getting bad, I am not blaming anyone If I do end up getting Covid-19 and dying.
I can't speak for anywhere else, but in America, in 2021, you are distinctly in the minority. We are fast evolving into a victim culture, where EVERYTHING that isn't optimal has to be attributable to something (preferably something we can point at the government to "stop").
And the disabled?
I'm sorry? What about the disabled?
It's the same question I've asked everybody here who emphasizes the "personal responsibility" angle of COVID.
It's great that Benjamin takes responsibility for his own health, but stopping the spread is about more than just looking out for ourselves. It's about creating an environment where the elderly and disabled as well as other vulnerable populations can get back to living in the level of risk that is more normal for them when there is not a deadly pandemic raging.
If it's my "fault" that I get covid, then it is also my "fault" if I spread it, no? Maybe something to consider before we start with yet another cultural grievance diatribe about "victim culture".
No need to be condescending. I'm continuously happy to start a yet another cultural grievance diatribe (nothing dismissive about that, amiright?) about "victim culture", because it's true. The two points are not mutually exclusive. As the son of a man who is handicapped, I can tell you first hand that society doesn't bend over for the disabled, and I'm not sure why we're all of a sudden making that the sticking point now. Regardless, he'd be the first to tell you that life isn't a plastic bubble. These arguments about liberty and mandates aren't about the disabled, they're about power and politics.
(And by the by, I never said "if you get COVID it's your fault", nor the corollary. I'm pointing at the whole idea of "fault" to begin with.I think you can do everything right, follow all the rules and guess what, life's going to kick you in the onions regardless. That doesn't mean you do nothing, but it does say that the idea of "fault" is limited in it's effectiveness.)
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If it's my "fault" that I get covid, then it is also my "fault" if I spread it, no? Maybe something to consider before we start with yet another cultural grievance diatribe about "victim culture".
Yup. It's more than just yourself. That's why things like obesity, isn't a great example. One person being fat does not make another person sick. We are talking a virus here, that spreads and mutates. If you are only looking at yourself, you don't have a true understanding of how our world works.
For clarity, I'm not suggesting that we look ONLY at ourselves. Again, it's NOT binary. I'm only saying that there are a LOT of people that don't even START by looking at themselves. I'm talking about a very specific mindset that assumes that we should be free from harm, that we have a RIGHT to be so, and that it's government's responsibility to make sure that's the case regardless. THAT'S the "victim culture", not a more nuanced understanding that we're talking about tens of variables working together, some we control, some they control, some NO ONE controls. I've posted articles here about the many examples where COVID has not acted in accordance with the politics or the generally accepted protocols for society disease control.
I've also cited numerous articles that show that the bullying, demanding culture DOESN'T CHANGE MINDS, at least with regards to vaccine hesitancy and mask wearing. Yet, we keep on keeping on, demanding an accountability that doesn't exist in the name of... I'm not sure what.
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Making a statement of facts is not bullying nor is it a demand. People need to understand the basics, which clearly many still don't over 1.5 years into this pandemic. It's amazing how uninformed or misinformed so many people are.
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Making a statement of facts is not bullying nor is it a demand. People need to understand the basics, which clearly many still don't over 1.5 years into this pandemic. It's amazing how uninformed or misinformed so many people are.
We're not in disagreement. I'm with you. I have zero problem with a statement of facts.
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Making a statement of facts is not bullying nor is it a demand. People need to understand the basics, which clearly many still don't over 1.5 years into this pandemic. It's amazing how uninformed or misinformed so many people are.
Yeah. And it's the attitude in which those facts are presented.
And again, the thing is. Humans do not know everything, nor do we know all the facts. We are living under that proof that these facts consistently change. This is just the Nature of how the World works. I have no idea how humans came to have that frame of mind that humans can control and predict the future to where everything will be safe for us humans. It's impossible and time and time again, throughout history, Nature has proven us wrong.
The issue is, the government is only there to keep the peace for the people. Where is the line drawn where the responsibility of safety is up to the people or the government?
This is the changing point where these two issues collided and we are left to face the reality of the consequences of these conflicting points for the people, as we do not know what these consequences will exactly be.
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No need to be condescending. I'm continuously happy to start a yet another cultural grievance diatribe (nothing dismissive about that, amiright?) about "victim culture", because it's true. The two points are not mutually exclusive. As the son of a man who is handicapped, I can tell you first hand that society doesn't bend over for the disabled, and I'm not sure why we're all of a sudden making that the sticking point now. Regardless, he'd be the first to tell you that life isn't a plastic bubble. These arguments about liberty and mandates aren't about the disabled, they're about power and politics.
(And by the by, I never said "if you get COVID it's your fault", nor the corollary. I'm pointing at the whole idea of "fault" to begin with.I think you can do everything right, follow all the rules and guess what, life's going to kick you in the onions regardless. That doesn't mean you do nothing, but it does say that the idea of "fault" is limited in it's effectiveness.)
Well, don't tell me to not be "condescending" when you start with the blanket statement that most Americans just want to play the victim card... lol
I want to unpack what Benjamin said because there are problems with the mentality. Similar to darkshade's earlier posts (and he never addressed my questions along these lines).
It's not enough to say "Well, I'll do what I want, and I'll own it if I get COVID" because doing whatever you want during COVID and saying you'll take responsibility for it is not like saying "I'll go to whatever dirty websites I want with no ad blocker or anti-virus, and if my computer gets a virus, so be it". There are very broad implications of the self-responsibility angle because a personal choice to not wear a mask or not get vaccinated (or go to work sick, or whatever) can put others in harm's way. You've already said multiple times that you agree with masking, encouraging the vax, and other protocols, so this isn't an attack on your personally, it's a rejection of the attitude that looks at the pandemic as an individual measure of risk vs a social one.
We need to do both, I think. My family and I have our own levels of risk for ourselves, and what we are willing/are not willing to put ourselves through. We also accept that there are unprecedented concerns with COVID being particularly harmful for certain groups, with some proven measures that can help slow the spread. Those people chest-pounding on the side-line about "if I get sick, I'll be fine", or "if I get it, no big deal" are missing the bigger picture of all the different things that need to go right in order to put the pandemic behind us.
If it's my "fault" that I get covid, then it is also my "fault" if I spread it, no? Maybe something to consider before we start with yet another cultural grievance diatribe about "victim culture".
Yup. It's more than just yourself. That's why things like obesity, isn't a great example. One person being fat does not make another person sick. We are talking a virus here, that spreads and mutates. If you are only looking at yourself, you don't have a true understanding of how our world works.
For clarity, I'm not suggesting that we look ONLY at ourselves. Again, it's NOT binary. I'm only saying that there are a LOT of people that don't even START by looking at themselves. I'm talking about a very specific mindset that assumes that we should be free from harm, that we have a RIGHT to be so, and that it's government's responsibility to make sure that's the case regardless. THAT'S the "victim culture", not a more nuanced understanding that we're talking about tens of variables working together, some we control, some they control, some NO ONE controls. I've posted articles here about the many examples where COVID has not acted in accordance with the politics or the generally accepted protocols for society disease control.
I've also cited numerous articles that show that the bullying, demanding culture DOESN'T CHANGE MINDS, at least with regards to vaccine hesitancy and mask wearing. Yet, we keep on keeping on, demanding an accountability that doesn't exist in the name of... I'm not sure what.
First off, believing that the Government should play some role in the public health is not "victim culture". No one expects the Government to keep them safe from all harm. And people who expect the Government to be able to do something about a crisis are also not "victims" with unrealistic expectations about their Government. They want the Governing body they already give like 20-30% of their salary to to do something.
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I want to unpack what Benjamin said because there are problems with the mentality. Similar to darkshade's earlier posts (and he never addressed my questions along these lines).
It's not enough to say "Well, I'll do what I want, and I'll own it if I get COVID" because doing whatever you want during COVID and saying you'll take responsibility for it is not like saying "I'll go to whatever dirty websites I want with no ad blocker or anti-virus, and if my computer gets a virus, so be it". There are very broad implications of the self-responsibility angle because a personal choice to not wear a mask or not get vaccinated (or go to work sick, or whatever) can put others in harm's way. You've already said multiple times that you agree with masking, encouraging the vax, and other protocols, so this isn't an attack on your personally, it's a rejection of the attitude that looks at the pandemic as an individual measure of risk vs a social one.
We need to do both, I think. My family and I have our own levels of risk for ourselves, and what we are willing/are not willing to put ourselves through. We also accept that there are unprecedented concerns with COVID being particularly harmful for certain groups, with some proven measures that can help slow the spread. Those people chest-pounding on the side-line about "if I get sick, I'll be fine", or "if I get it, no big deal" are missing the bigger picture of all the different things that need to go right in order to put the pandemic behind us.
I understand exactly what you are saying. I agree it's a bit of both. Even though I have this mentality, I do also understand their needs to be a balance of both things. But I also understand it's not as easy-peasy as it sounds because people have their own mentalities and their own thoughts and are their own people.
Basically, it's the foundation of what is called Community. There is none of that in these big cities, and you could say not much of it in the world. People are so divided and separated from one another that there is no common unity to form a sense of community. Neighbors tend to not know one another and individuals tend to be left to fend for themselves. One just needs to look at how many elderly live alone and not many bother to help them out with basic things they can not do anymore as they are old. In communities, people tend to watch and look out for one another, they will watch your house when you are not home, which is the connection of unity.
I also feel it's more about how the one's in charge are not being upfront about it and are using it for their own reasons as well. Sometimes, going against what the data shows...because...
I've posted articles here about the many examples where COVID has not acted in accordance with the politics or the generally accepted protocols for society disease control.
I've also cited numerous articles that show that the bullying, demanding culture DOESN'T CHANGE MINDS, at least with regards to vaccine hesitancy and mask wearing. Yet, we keep on keeping on, demanding an accountability that doesn't exist in the name of... I'm not sure what.
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No need to be condescending. I'm continuously happy to start a yet another cultural grievance diatribe (nothing dismissive about that, amiright?) about "victim culture", because it's true. The two points are not mutually exclusive. As the son of a man who is handicapped, I can tell you first hand that society doesn't bend over for the disabled, and I'm not sure why we're all of a sudden making that the sticking point now. Regardless, he'd be the first to tell you that life isn't a plastic bubble. These arguments about liberty and mandates aren't about the disabled, they're about power and politics.
(And by the by, I never said "if you get COVID it's your fault", nor the corollary. I'm pointing at the whole idea of "fault" to begin with.I think you can do everything right, follow all the rules and guess what, life's going to kick you in the onions regardless. That doesn't mean you do nothing, but it does say that the idea of "fault" is limited in it's effectiveness.)
Well, don't tell me to not be "condescending" when you start with the blanket statement that most Americans just want to play the victim card... lol
I'm not going to quibble with you: I stated an opinion that I believe and that has nothing to do with you. You can like, or not, that opinion at your choice. YOU commented on MY statement and dismissed it summarily. Very different.
I want to unpack what Benjamin said because there are problems with the mentality. Similar to darkshade's earlier posts (and he never addressed my questions along these lines).
It's not enough to say "Well, I'll do what I want, and I'll own it if I get COVID" because doing whatever you want during COVID and saying you'll take responsibility for it is not like saying "I'll go to whatever dirty websites I want with no ad blocker or anti-virus, and if my computer gets a virus, so be it". There are very broad implications of the self-responsibility angle because a personal choice to not wear a mask or not get vaccinated (or go to work sick, or whatever) can put others in harm's way. You've already said multiple times that you agree with masking, encouraging the vax, and other protocols, so this isn't an attack on your personally, it's a rejection of the attitude that looks at the pandemic as an individual measure of risk vs a social one.
Well, it is, to a degree, because it's not absolute. I agree with masking (I mask 97% of the time), I agree with vaccinating (I was vaccinated the second day it was available to me), and I strongly encourage the dissemination of FACTUAL, UNBIASED information to allow people to make informed choices. But I don't agree with TELLING PEOPLE they have to do what I did. If a store wants to, so be it, I can choose to go or not go. But I don't believe the government is here to play recess monitor to the grand playground that is life.
We need to do both, I think. My family and I have our own levels of risk for ourselves, and what we are willing/are not willing to put ourselves through. We also accept that there are unprecedented concerns with COVID being particularly harmful for certain groups, with some proven measures that can help slow the spread. Those people chest-pounding on the side-line about "if I get sick, I'll be fine", or "if I get it, no big deal" are missing the bigger picture of all the different things that need to go right in order to put the pandemic behind us.
So where is the line then? Is it on you and your family to decide "well, maybe I don't get to go to concerts", or is it on Government to make sure that every concert gets played and only the vaccinated and masked get to see them (note, I said GOVERNMENT, not the promoter or the band).
First off, believing that the Government should play some role in the public health is not "victim culture". No one expects the Government to keep them safe from all harm. And people who expect the Government to be able to do something about a crisis are also not "victims" with unrealistic expectations about their Government. They want the Governing body they already give like 20-30% of their salary to to do something.
I didn't say that. Government SHOULD play SOME role in the public health. Doing research, providing information, providing guidelines. But who has the first priority when there is conflict? Who has the responsibility if one of the respective parties fails in their duty? Those are the things that lead to a "victim culture". I actually don't think we're at cross-purposes here, we're just working through the definitions, where the line is. Though I will say, you're encroaching on that with your last sentence: "do something". That's not the standard, "doing something". That's the answer when there's a mass killing; government has to "do something". And they invariably do, our politicians pat each other on the back about how great they are, and there is invariably another, more heinous slaughter some time after, because they're either not able to or not willing to do the RIGHT something.
And that's where the rubber meets the road; Florida is in the news because it's Florida and we have to mock and ridicule when someone disagrees with us, moreso when it's someone like Ron DeSantis who doesn't kowtow. Yet.... Florida is STILL below the national average for deaths per 1M (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/) and those states that did "all the right things" (like mine, and those around me) are still well above them. Florida has not even 2/3 the deaths/1M that my state has, and we "did something". Even in cases, Florida is rising, but still not top five when adjusted for population, and the number one state is still a very blue state in New England, and my neighbor to the east.
I think we're arguing semantics without having the language in front of us. I'm not accusing you of being a victim, and I'm not saying we should do "nothing". I'm saying that the victim culture REQUIRES that there be fault and that it be someone else. I'm less arguing the "someone else" as I am the "that there is fault to begin with". I feel bad for you and your family. I'm sensitive to that. My uncle died of COVID and if my dad gets it, it's likely game over (he lives in Florida, by the way). I get the need to want everything to be as perfect as it can be, but at the end of the day, there are limitations, and we need to be prepared for that.
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Sadly, I call into question anything reported by Florida. Something funny was going on down there where they were trying to hide the real numbers. At least, that seemed to be what might have been happening. I don't remember all the details, I just remember stories regarding shenanigans down there with accurate reporting. Not to mention, that site seems to stop in mid-July with numbers for Florida. We all know they have been a mess the last month with cases, as emtee has clearly pointed out being on the front lines.
Anyway, right on cue, who could have seen this coming?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/florida-school-district-calls-emergency-221412347.html
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A friend of mine lives in Florida. Her 5 year old (who was born premature but by all accounts is perfectly healthy) started kindergarten last Monday. By Wednesday, my friend tested positive for Covid. She is fully vaccinated. She felt a little crappy but lost her sense of taste and smell which caused her to get tested.
Her son is now in the hospital for the 2nd time in 2 days with a temp of 106 (while on Tylenol and Motrin every 4 hours), and low oxygen levels. They were sent home on Saturday likely because they didn't have a bed to spare. I haven't heard yet if he is still there or has been discharged again.
I can't even begin to imagine how terrified she is right now.
This story is playing out for thousands of families as I type this. God help us all.
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That's awful..
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Yeah, that is awful. I'm sorry.
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My son starts school on Wednesday. We're all worried. The district I live in bleeds red and I guess my county is not even 40% vaccinated. We got an email a few days ago from the district superintendent. It was very long and full of all of the ramifications of not following the Governor's school mask mandate. Loaded full of 'our lawyers say' and loaded with legalese (wonder if Stads wrote it for him :biggrin:). My first impression was, he read the room and knows what to expect. Mentioned the email to my wife later that day and told her that he seems to know what's coming. She then told me that a petition was already making the rounds with the parents to fight the mandate and that she was asked to sign it. She declined.
I fear a big outbreak is coming in our school district.
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Harmony, I'm sorry for your pain, and that of your friend. I hope everyone recovers completely.
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So just heard that the team formerly known as the Oakland Raiders are enacting a policy for home games where your options for entry are either proof of vaccination, or you can choose to be vaccinated on the spot. Personally, I love this.
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That’s awesome!! :lol
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Right? How many staunch 'antivaxxers' will change their minds in three fucking seconds to get into the game? My guess..99.9% of them.
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So what have you guys been using to show proof of vaccine for that have it? I'm going to a concert on Saturday and I don't want to bring the card that I got after the shots. Would just a picture of it on my phone would be sufficient enough as proof?
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So what have you guys been using to show proof of vaccine for that have it? I'm going to a concert on Saturday and I don't want to bring the card that I got after the shots. Would just a picture of it on my phone would be sufficient enough as proof?
I haven't been asked, but California has a vaccine passport app(it shows a QR code that links to my records), but for some reason my second shot isn't registering on it. I'm not the only one with this problem, it's been buggy for a good deal of people. I also have a pic of my card on my phone, and my health provider, Kaiser, has a medical app that can easily access my vaccine records, which show both shots.
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New York has an app too.
I also made a colored copy of my card and laminated it for my wallet.
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So what have you guys been using to show proof of vaccine for that have it? I'm going to a concert on Saturday and I don't want to bring the card that I got after the shots. Would just a picture of it on my phone would be sufficient enough as proof?
I haven't been asked, but California has a vaccine passport app(it shows a QR code that links to my records), but for some reason my second shot isn't registering on it. I'm not the only one with this problem, it's been buggy for a good deal of people. I also have a pic of my card on my phone, and my health provider, Kaiser, has a medical app that can easily access my vaccine records, which show both shots.
I had that same issue as well. I went through that California Vaccine passport thing and troubleshoot it and I was informed that it would take 2-3 weeks to update it after I provided some information.
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We are overall doing well now in The Netherlands. But I do worry a bit about the schools opening soon, as the Delta variant apparently does pose a much more significant risk to children than the previous variants that plagued us.
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Right? How many staunch 'antivaxxers' will change their minds in three fucking seconds to get into the game? My guess..99.9% of them.
Staunch antivaxers have a great deal of overlap with the people who swore off the NFL years ago. I seriously doubt they'll get many takers.
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Right? How many staunch 'antivaxxers' will change their minds in three fucking seconds to get into the game? My guess..99.9% of them.
Staunch antivaxers have a great deal of overlap with the people who swore off the NFL years ago. I seriously doubt they'll get many takers.
It'll probably grab some who are already there, drunk, and that's now their only way to get in. Then they won't show up for round 2 in a few weeks. I think it's a novel idea, not sure how effective it will be. Worth a try. I think most who are anti vax and know about the policy aren't likely do go.
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Right? How many staunch 'antivaxxers' will change their minds in three fucking seconds to get into the game? My guess..99.9% of them.
Staunch antivaxers have a great deal of overlap with the people who swore off the NFL years ago. I seriously doubt they'll get many takers.
I dunno - I knew several people who were "done with the NFL" years ago. They were KC fans and then Patrick Mahomes became a thing. And then, the Chiefs paraphernalia came back out. It didn't take long.
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Right? How many staunch 'antivaxxers' will change their minds in three fucking seconds to get into the game? My guess..99.9% of them.
Staunch antivaxers have a great deal of overlap with the people who swore off the NFL years ago. I seriously doubt they'll get many takers.
It'll probably grab some who are already there, drunk, and that's now their only way to get in. Then they won't show up for round 2 in a few weeks. I think it's a novel idea, not sure how effective it will be. Worth a try. I think most who are anti vax and know about the policy aren't likely do go.
Could be a Johnson & Johnson shot - one and done. I think it's a great idea - people who won't want to turn around and drive home might just say "fine, give me the shot."
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It honestly seems more likely to me that the scalpers and hawkers you walk past on the way to the game will be selling vaccine cards for $25/ea.
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Right? How many staunch 'antivaxxers' will change their minds in three fucking seconds to get into the game? My guess..99.9% of them.
Staunch antivaxers have a great deal of overlap with the people who swore off the NFL years ago. I seriously doubt they'll get many takers.
It'll probably grab some who are already there, drunk, and that's now their only way to get in. Then they won't show up for round 2 in a few weeks. I think it's a novel idea, not sure how effective it will be. Worth a try. I think most who are anti vax and know about the policy aren't likely do go.
Could be a Johnson & Johnson shot - one and done. I think it's a great idea - people who won't want to turn around and drive home might just say "fine, give me the shot."
Maybe. I do think it's worth a shot
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It's absolutely worth a shot. They'll probably administer a couple. I just don't think there's much that'll get through to the diehard antivaxers. They've invested too much into their identities as stubborn super-geniuses.
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Right? How many staunch 'antivaxxers' will change their minds in three fucking seconds to get into the game? My guess..99.9% of them.
Staunch antivaxers have a great deal of overlap with the people who swore off the NFL years ago. I seriously doubt they'll get many takers.
It'll probably grab some who are already there, drunk, and that's now their only way to get in. Then they won't show up for round 2 in a few weeks. I think it's a novel idea, not sure how effective it will be. Worth a try. I think most who are anti vax and know about the policy aren't likely do go.
Could be a Johnson & Johnson shot - one and done. I think it's a great idea - people who won't want to turn around and drive home might just say "fine, give me the shot."
Maybe. I do think it's worth a shot
:icy:
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It's absolutely worth a shot. They'll probably administer a couple. I just don't think there's much that'll get through to the diehard antivaxers. They've invested too much into their identities as stubborn super-geniuses.
(https://c.tenor.com/uYry84zVZqwAAAAM/bugs-bunny-wile-e-coyote.gif)
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:rollin :rollin
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[quote author=Stadler link=topic=56501.msg2800168#msg2800168
So where is the line then? Is it on you and your family to decide "well, maybe I don't get to go to concerts", or is it on Government to make sure that every concert gets played and only the vaccinated and masked get to see them (note, I said GOVERNMENT, not the promoter or the band). [/quote]
The Government being involved or not is not the same "zero sum" game for me. I personally would like to see actual data driving these kinds of decisions. Would it make sense to say "here are the types of events that can occur with X cases per 100,000/500,000/1,000,000"? Set rules for risk tolerance based on expert advise that we can all compromise and plan around. In the beginning, we heard people talk about doing things along these lines (my workplace also initially talked about reopening our in-office operations under this terminology). For some reason, that all stopped, and I have no idea why.
I think we're arguing semantics without having the language in front of us. I'm not accusing you of being a victim, and I'm not saying we should do "nothing". I'm saying that the victim culture REQUIRES that there be fault and that it be someone else. I'm less arguing the "someone else" as I am the "that there is fault to begin with". I feel bad for you and your family. I'm sensitive to that. My uncle died of COVID and if my dad gets it, it's likely game over (he lives in Florida, by the way). I get the need to want everything to be as perfect as it can be, but at the end of the day, there are limitations, and we need to be prepared for that.
I hear you and I'm sorry for your losses as well. I still have several family members who are also "game over" if they get this.
My problem with the initial statement is along the lines of "I take responsibility for my own health - if I get COVID, I have no one to blame but myself". To me, that's like saying, "I'll just pirate the new DT album - I probably won't get caught anyway." Well, sure, maybe not a big deal when one person is like that. But when 40% (or more) of the people are like that...
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[quote author=Stadler link=topic=56501.msg2800168#msg2800168
So where is the line then? Is it on you and your family to decide "well, maybe I don't get to go to concerts", or is it on Government to make sure that every concert gets played and only the vaccinated and masked get to see them (note, I said GOVERNMENT, not the promoter or the band).
The Government being involved or not is not the same "zero sum" game for me. I personally would like to see actual data driving these kinds of decisions. Would it make sense to say "here are the types of events that can occur with X cases per 100,000/500,000/1,000,000"? Set rules for risk tolerance based on expert advise that we can all compromise and plan around. In the beginning, we heard people talk about doing things along these lines (my workplace also initially talked about reopening our in-office operations under this terminology). For some reason, that all stopped, and I have no idea why. [/quote]
I would actually have no problem with that. I wouldn't LIKE it, but I don't have to like it and at least its factually driven, not what we have now which is a bunch of feelings, opinions, and "great" ideas (read: hunches) with little substance.
I think we're arguing semantics without having the language in front of us. I'm not accusing you of being a victim, and I'm not saying we should do "nothing". I'm saying that the victim culture REQUIRES that there be fault and that it be someone else. I'm less arguing the "someone else" as I am the "that there is fault to begin with". I feel bad for you and your family. I'm sensitive to that. My uncle died of COVID and if my dad gets it, it's likely game over (he lives in Florida, by the way). I get the need to want everything to be as perfect as it can be, but at the end of the day, there are limitations, and we need to be prepared for that.
I hear you and I'm sorry for your losses as well. I still have several family members who are also "game over" if they get this.
My problem with the initial statement is along the lines of "I take responsibility for my own health - if I get COVID, I have no one to blame but myself". To me, that's like saying, "I'll just pirate the new DT album - I probably won't get caught anyway." Well, sure, maybe not a big deal when one person is like that. But when 40% (or more) of the people are like that...
I appreciate your kind words, and here's hoping both our families get out of this unscathed.
But here's the semantics: it's not either/or. I'm that way no matter what; I'm that guy in Monty Python, "just a flesh wound". That's not to say that other people don't have responsibilities. That's not to say that we ALL don't have obligations and duties to meet. That's not to say I'm going to take the fall for something clearly caused by someone else. But there's a philosophy; where are you going to look first? And what are you going to do if the world doesn't buck to your will? What will happen if there's a conflict of wills or conflict of rights between those that think differently? We are in a representative democratic republic, and all 330 million people have an equal say more or less, at least when it comes to the fundamental rights. Sometimes those rights clash; sometimes it's not really 'rights' that clash, but your 'rights' versus my 'privileges' (and vice versa). There are people in this world, simply put, that once their PRIVILEGES are infringed - not even rights, but their privileges (that is to say, those things that we want, that are nice to have, but we can't demand) - they feel the world owes them something and everyone else needs to buck up and get with the program.
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Which 2 states Governors have been in the news ad nauseum regarding their anti-covid mandate mantra's? Which 2 states now have the highest daily death totals by a 3 to 1 average? Not a hard question.
As preparation for further grim developments, Texas has requested five mortuary trailers from the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Texas trails only Florida among states with the most COVID deaths a day, both averaging more than 160. No other state is above 50.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/08/17/covid-booster-shots-vaccinations-mask-mandates-biden-administration/8160102002/
Oh, and one of those Governors now has Covid, got a 3rd vaccine dose and is also getting monoclonal antibody treatments.
Per @NBCNews: “@GovAbbott has told people he received a third booster dose of the vaccine, two sources told NBC News.
“The Governor will isolate in the Governor’s Mansion and continue to test daily. Governor Abbott is receiving Regeneron’s monoclonal antibody treatment,” the statement read.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-gov-greg-abbott-who-opposes-vaccine-and-mask-mandates-tests-positive-for-covid-19-211349823.html
Meanwhile, seeing what seems like near constant school outbreak stories. They can't even make it a week without a major outbreak. Think I saw today about a district in California that was testing its students and came up with 3600 positive cases. Yeah, looking forward to school starting tomorrow.
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Really good article on the numbers from Isreal and how people are misinterpreting the results of the Pfizer vaccine's efficacy
https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/israeli-data-how-can-efficacy-vs-severe-disease-be-strong-when-60-of-hospitalized-are-vaccinated (https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/israeli-data-how-can-efficacy-vs-severe-disease-be-strong-when-60-of-hospitalized-are-vaccinated)
The bottom line is there is very strong evidence that the vaccines have high efficacy protecting against severe disease, even for Delta, and even in these Israeli data that on the surface appear to suggest the Pfizer vaccine might have waning efficacy. This is clearly evident if the data are analyzed carefully, and agrees with all other published results to date from other countries.
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First week, local high school had 15 cases. This is gonna be interesting.
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I'm a little nervous for my daughter to start first grade next week. Last year, half of the kids were remote. She had a few colds, but tested negative for covid each time. This year, there is no remote option and all kids have to be in school. Knowing how parents just shuttle their sick kids off to school and how lax a lot of them are at home with masks and covid, I think we'll see more positive cases in school. There weren't too many last spring.
At least our school district is requiring masks while indoors. One of the board members is very far-right and I've been screen-shotting some of the bullshit that I find online in comment sections in case I ever need it. Thank goodness he's in the minority on the board.
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We just had our orientation this morning. Masks are required in Connecticut in K through 12, and my stepson is very good about wearing his, so I think the risk is there but outweighed by the benefit of actually learning. He didn't learn squat remote last year. It's basically a lost year for him, and - from what I'm gathering - most other students of his age.
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I'm curious about testing IN schools. For those of you with school age kids, if they show symptoms at school, did you as parents need to sign a release allowing them to be rapid tested?
If so, who does that testing? In our local area school nurses went away a decade ago. And by that I mean, there is one RN to about a dozen schools.
I'm all for testing anyone with symptoms but I don't want some secretary or some coach shoving a q-tip up inside a squirmy child's nose. Have your districts sent out guidance on how this will be handled and what will happen if a test turns out positive - with regard to quarantine?
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I'm curious about testing IN schools. For those of you with school age kids, if they show symptoms at school, did you as parents need to sign a release allowing them to be rapid tested?
If so, who does that testing? In our local area school nurses went away a decade ago. And by that I mean, there is one RN to about a dozen schools.
I'm all for testing anyone with symptoms but I don't want some secretary or some coach shoving a q-tip up inside a squirmy child's nose. Have your districts sent out guidance on how this will be handled and what will happen if a test turns out positive - with regard to quarantine?
I just received an email a minute ago regarding this. We will have to sign a release form for in-school rapid PCR testing. We have a school nurse.
If a kid in school tests positive, potential exposed kids (determined to be in close contact with the positive case) have the following options:
1. If a parent does not sign the release, then the student has to quarantine at home for 7-14 days and do remote school. I would guess that a negative test will be required to come back.
2. Take saliva-based rapid tests at regular intervals (1 day, 3 days, 5 days, 7 days) and do not have to quarantine at home. The kid just spits into a test tube and assuming they remain negative, can remain in school.
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I'm curious about testing IN schools. For those of you with school age kids, if they show symptoms at school, did you as parents need to sign a release allowing them to be rapid tested?
If so, who does that testing? In our local area school nurses went away a decade ago. And by that I mean, there is one RN to about a dozen schools.
I'm all for testing anyone with symptoms but I don't want some secretary or some coach shoving a q-tip up inside a squirmy child's nose. Have your districts sent out guidance on how this will be handled and what will happen if a test turns out positive - with regard to quarantine?
There's a testing location here that does self-administered tests. You do it yourself and place it in the baggy where the workers grab it with those claw hand extender things and place it in a bucket (looked like a trash can with the toxic logo orange trash bag).
This women parked on the side and gave her kid the tests.
I would figure they would be capable to do something like this.
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I feel for those with younger kids or kids that cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons. Thankfully, we are somewhat fortunate in the timing of all of this in that we only have one under 12 (and thus only one unvaccinated), and she is home schooled.
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What-the-actual-fuck? When I first saw this photo I thought it was fake. Apparently I'm wrong.
(https://i.imgur.com/eEKm6Y5.jpg)
A photo circulating on social media shows COVID-19 patients lying on the floor of the antibody treatment clinic at the Jacksonville Public Library Downtown.
The photo shows a woman lying face-down on the library floor. She appears to be in distress. In the background, another person is also flat on the floor, being tended to by a loved one.
The photo was posted on Reddit around midday on Wednesday by user Suzieb2220, who wrote, “My husband (vaccinated, but positive) has been waiting 2+ hours for monoclonal therapy and he says he has never seen people so sick. Moaning, crying, unable to move.”
Reached Thursday afternoon, Louie Lopez, who took the photo, said the imagine was more dramatic in person. "The picture doesn't convey the sounds that I was hearing. People were in pain." Lopez said the nurses were friendly and were doing their best, and the patients were all friendly, despite the two-hour waits they were suffering, often while ill. Some patients shared the limited chairs that were available.
Lopez said that he's beginning to feeling better, and hasn't had a migraine for the first time in eight days.
"It seems really odd that would have a bunch of really sick people in a library waiting for an injection when then need medical treatment," said Dr. Sunil Joshi, president of the Duval County Medical Society Foundation. "This is approved or people who have mild to moderate symptoms. If they have symptoms where their oxygen is low or their blood pressure is low, they need to be seen in the hospital."
A city of Jacksonville spokesperson confirmed the photo is of the Jacksonville clinic, and told WJCT News wheelchairs are offered at the site, but at the time the photo was taken, they were all filled by other patients.
“In order to support the State of Florida in their efforts to provide this important treatment (that they’ve contracted out to CDR Maguire), [Jacksonville Fire and Rescue Department] and [The City of Jacksonville] are providing triple the number of wheelchairs, additional seating for those waiting in line and signage that directs patients to alert someone if they need any type of assistance,” said spokeswoman Nikki Kimbleton.
“This treatment is meant to keep people OUT of the hospital and is designed for those early on in their COVID-19 diagnosis or for those who believe they have been exposed to COVID,” Kimbleton said. “Individuals with severe symptoms should contact a medical professional for guidance on the proper treatment for their situation.”
Regeneron, a monoclonal antibody treatment, can help reduce the symptoms of COVID-19 if it’s administered shortly after exposure to the virus, but it’s less helpful once symptoms progress. It can also limit the body’s ability to fight future COVID infection and make vaccines less effective, according to its manufacturer.
Gov. Ron DeSantis visited Jacksonville last Thursday to promote the clinic, saying the Regeneron “strike teams” deployed across the state were “the best thing we can do” to reduce hospitalizations. “So I want everybody to know that this is an important way to be able to protect yourself in the event that you are infected,” he said.
The clinic was originally sited in a Florida Department of Emergency Management trailer on Bay Street, and was moved to the library Conference Center on August 16.
A city of Jacksonville employee told WJCT News the process of setting up the library site felt rushed from the beginning. The employee, who was not authorized to speak to the media, asked to remain anonymous.
“The fact that there seemed to have been no forward thought or planning that went into this, it was just, ‘The governor said so, so we’re going to do it,’ kind of a thing. It raised a lot of alarms,” the employee said.
The Jacksonville clinic has given out 372 doses since it opened August 12, according to the city.
At last count, Baptist Health Jacksonville reported 535 COVID patients, including 125 in the ICU and 15 children. WJCT News Partner News4Jax reports Duval County is averaging 123 COVID-19 hospitalizations per 100,000 people, meaning 1 out of every 813 Jaxsons is hospitalized with the viral infection.
https://news.wjct.org/post/photo-shows-jacksonville-regeneron-clinic-overburdened-covid-patients
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Well, Florida and Texas are state fighting against precautions so it's fitting unfortunately to see this.
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Just so I have this straight. COVID positive individuals are getting Regeneron injections instead of going to a hospital? Assuming some of these people are unvax’d, where is the logic in this - they’ll take new therapies after they get sick, but not ones that would prevent them (and others around them) from getting sick in the first place??
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Seems like bullshit to me Chad. Those maniacs wouldn't put anything in their bodies to save them.
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Just so I have this straight. COVID positive individuals are getting Regeneron injections instead of going to a hospital? Assuming some of these people are unvax’d, where is the logic in this - they’ll take new therapies after they get sick, but not ones that would prevent them (and others around them) from getting sick in the first place??
From the article:
"“My husband (vaccinated, but positive) has been waiting 2+ hours..." "
Let's not assume.
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Just so I have this straight. COVID positive individuals are getting Regeneron injections instead of going to a hospital? Assuming some of these people are unvax’d, where is the logic in this - they’ll take new therapies after they get sick, but not ones that would prevent them (and others around them) from getting sick in the first place??
From the article:
"“My husband (vaccinated, but positive) has been waiting 2+ hours..." "
Let's not assume.
Let's also not assume 1 example means all are vaccinated. ;)
Also, I have an Economics degree... assumptions is what we do. Given the vax rate in Florida, it's reasonable to assume about 50% of the people attending this clinic are vax'd, and 39% are fully unvax'd.
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I guess, but you know then that everything that follows is only as good as the level of the assumptions. Your assumption may be accurate, but it flies in the face of the ONE data point we DO have. And it's not even that; I think it's fair to assume SOME percentage of those there are unvaccinated (about 50% of Floridians are not fully vaxx'd). I dunno; I just bristle at the constant judgment. No vax: dumb ass piece of shit that gets whatever is coming to them, including the mocking derision of all of us perfect people here. Because none of us are EVER hypocritical, and we would NEVER make personal decisions that seem to be at odds, amiright?
I have fam in Florida. It's real shit. My brother is not vaxx'd. I can't tell you what would push him over the edge, but he's not stupid (four year college degree), he's not a "Trump-er!", he's not deplorable, he's not a racist asshole, he's not ANY of the stereotypes. I suspect I know what/why it is (and it's a logical if not reasonable reason rooted in the emotion of fear), but I don't know for certain, and I'm not going to browbeat him into something he doesn't want to do. I HAVE said "look, you be you, but when you visit our parents, be smart. it's not YOUR rules, it's THEIR rules and honor that." And he does.
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Pleas let me know which part of my post was judgmental.
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Pleas let me know which part of my post was judgmental.
"where is the logic in this - they’ll take new therapies after they get sick, but not ones that would prevent them (and others around them) from getting sick in the first place??"
There's no implication of hypocrisy here? The double "??" isn't at all meant to point fingers? C'mon. There are countless posts here, in this thread (and the other one) doing just that. We are not a logical species. You're an economist; you know the age-old debate about "the rational man". We're not. We diet and we smoke. We exercise and we drive fast. We eat organic and drink alcohol. I've cited the reference so many times I should get royalties at this point: "How Risky Is It?" by Dave Ropeik. The forward is exactly about this; a woman fighting, in court, to get her town to remediate a library because of TRACE amounts of a known carcinogen, and in the break of the hearing she chain smoked cigarettes outside the meeting room. Wha??
If you legit are saying there's absolutely zero judgment there, then my bad, you have my apologies, but I take that with a grain of salt.
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When I made the post, I'd just read some posts about vaccine hesitancy and the new / experimental nature of the vaccines, hence my comments in that direction.
Regardless, I was just asking where the logic was. No castigation. No implication. No imputation. Can someone help me understand the logic? Sincere question.
At a macro level, I don't see where there is logic in actively avoiding some manner of preventative measure, only to take an equal or greater reactive measure. Whether it's COVID related, some other form of health measure (taking insulin instead of waiting to go blind or lose a limb), car/house maintenance (replace your shingles before the roof springs a leak and floods your house), whatever. What's the old saying .... an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
That's all man.
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Okay fair enough. But you already know the answer to that. ;)
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If those people are really sick (and I'm making an assumption, someone sleeping on the floor because there are no chairs and a long wait) then they should be in the hospital and should not be eligible for the regeneron therapy (from my understanding). If that's the case, it kind of just goes along with a lot of my thoughts through all this "people really have no understanding of what's going on" and they only have themselves to blame. This is not new, we've been living in this pandemic for so long now, it amazes me that some people are completely clueless.
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For me the issue in Floriduh is about sending sick people to a fucking library to get a medication and not being well prepared to treat folks who may collapse in the lobby of the building with medically trained personnel and necessary equipment like wheelchairs and oxygen.
Oh wait - I guess all the medically trained personnel are needed to take care of sick people in hospitals in the ERs and ICUs.
I mean, what could possibly go wrong? :facepalm:
Has anyone looked into which politicians are getting rich off of Regeneron yet?
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An update on my friend in Florida and her son:
Hi, all! I realized I haven't updated everyone in a while. Time goes by quickly and slowly simultaneously. COVID is awful. We felt better for about 6 hours and Sebastian's fever broke, and then we felt like we got hit with a bag of bricks and his fever came back (low-grade most of the time now though, 99-101). We get new, different symptoms from one day to the next. We currently are having this weird burning sensation in our noses and esophaguses, and the exhaustion continues. The coughing is annoying for me because it hurts so bad deep in my chest. Sebastian's coughing has improved, which I attribute to the nebulizer, which seems to work wonders for him. We've gone through a ton of water and Gatorade, and Bridgette is dropping off more later today. You amazing people have made things so much easier for us with your COVID gifts (Powerade freezer pops, lunch, dinner, kids holding signs that say "Hugs" outside our door, soup, gift cards for food), and lots of messages of love and well wishes. The meal train has been a lifesaver! I didn't realize how much energy cooking was using until I didn't have to do it. ❤️🙏 We're tired of being exhausted and sick, but we know we'll pull through. You all have been incredible and we are so lucky to have you in our lives! Please know how very much we appreciate you!
***Keep in mind, this mom was fully vaccinated. Imagine if she wasn't.
I remember being a bit anxious about the side effects from the 2nd Covid shot. I feel incredibly stupid about that after reading this. I can't WAIT to get my booster in October.
Thanks to those of you who wished this little guy well and kept them in your thoughts and prayers.
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Just when you thought it coudn't get weirder and more bizarre.
https://www.insider.com/man-storms-walmart-to-put-staff-on-notice-vaccine-shots-2021-8
'Vaccine police' threatens to hang pharmacist's for violating the Nuremberg Code. Says 45,000 dropped dead within 3 days of receiving the vaccine.
:facepalm:
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FDA gives full approval to Pfizer Vax.
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Just when you thought it coudn't get weirder and more bizarre.
https://www.insider.com/man-storms-walmart-to-put-staff-on-notice-vaccine-shots-2021-8
'Vaccine police' threatens to hang pharmacist's for violating the Nuremberg Code. Says 45,000 dropped dead within 3 days of receiving the vaccine.
:facepalm:
"We're going to let them know that 45,000 people within three days of receiving the vaccine dropped dead. And if they give one more vaccine after today, after being put on notice, then they can be hung up, and they can be executed."
"I'm not trying to give you any fear and intimidation," Key told a staff member in the video. "I'm just letting you guys know that if you continue to do this, that you guys will be held accountable."
:justjen
FDA gives full approval to Pfizer Vax.
I'm so happy with this, let's just hope it is enough (and not too late).
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I hate to be pessimistic, but I really don't see this moving the needle too much.
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I hate to be pessimistic, but I really don't see this moving the needle too much.
I see what you did there.
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I hate to be pessimistic, but I really don't see this moving the needle too much.
Neither do I, but it should be interesting to see what they come up with as their next excuse not to get vaxxed
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I hate to be pessimistic, but I really don't see this moving the needle too much.
Agreed. Sad to say.
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They mentioned on the news this morning that based on a poll (we all know how accurate those are), 3/10 unvaccinated people will get the vaccine once fully approved by the FDA.
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They mentioned on the news this morning that based on a poll (we all know how accurate those are), 3/10 unvaccinated people will get the vaccine once fully approved by the FDA.
That's roughly 42 million people. That would push us up over 70% vaccinated. I would think that would make us all happy.
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I hate to be pessimistic, but I really don't see this moving the needle too much.
It'll likely lead to more mandates though, that will force the issue.
They mentioned on the news this morning that based on a poll (we all know how accurate those are), 3/10 unvaccinated people will get the vaccine once fully approved by the FDA.
That's roughly 42 million people. That would push us up over 70% vaccinated. I would think that would make us all happy.
If the 3/10 number is legit, that's great potential.
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My father works for Kaiser Permanente out in Cali. He just sent me this text.
"Kaiser sent out today that if you didnt have proof of vaccination or a legit exemption by Dec 1, youre fired
And if you don't have it by OCT 1, you get put on UNPAID administrative leave until 12/1
They're not screwing around anymore"
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My father works for Kaiser Permanente out in Cali. He just sent me this text.
"Kaiser sent out today that if you didnt have proof of vaccination or a legit exemption by Dec 1, youre fired
And if you don't have it by OCT 1, you get put on UNPAID administrative leave until 12/1
They're not screwing around anymore"
Yep. Someone correct me if I am wrong but they had predicted vaccine mandates would increase once full FDA approval was given. I think that a vaccine mandate for a drug that did not have full FDA approval could be challenged in court. I personally am glad and am all for it.
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My company had said vaccines were mandated a couple weeks ago, but my specific branch of the company is re-opening the office September 15th and it will be required by ANYONE who enters the building, including vendors and guests. No one is being required to work from the office, work from home remains completely optional for most people and will be for the foreseeable future. Opening the office is just a way to get people who want to get out of the house, the option. Sounds like a solid plan to me, but it doesn't really impact me as an "essential worker" as I've been in this whole time and even just completed my first business trip last week.
It was so weird being in LA where the mask is mandated and it seems like everyone wears them even by themselves outside. Back in NJ, and it's not mandated so I was out and about without the mask over the weekend.
I've gotten to the point with going to so many concerts lately and traveling to wondering if I am just spreading covid all over the nation. I haven't felt sick or anything though, just find it hard to believe I have not been exposed from all the social activities being maskless lately. I guess if even I did contract the virus, being asymptomatic would likely mean I'm not spreading it though. It's just constantly in the back of my mind these days and I very much feel like other than sitting in my house, there's nothing I can do but go about my life and try to enjoy it the ways I can. Which means going to concerts for me. There's A LOT coming up too.
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My father works for Kaiser Permanente out in Cali. He just sent me this text.
"Kaiser sent out today that if you didnt have proof of vaccination or a legit exemption by Dec 1, youre fired
And if you don't have it by OCT 1, you get put on UNPAID administrative leave until 12/1
They're not screwing around anymore"
Love it. My company mandated them a bit back, and told one coworker he couldn't work again till two weeks after his second shit. He missed 5 weeks pay.
Just curious Chino, is your dad local to me in the bay?
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My father works for Kaiser Permanente out in Cali. He just sent me this text.
"Kaiser sent out today that if you didnt have proof of vaccination or a legit exemption by Dec 1, youre fired
And if you don't have it by OCT 1, you get put on UNPAID administrative leave until 12/1
They're not screwing around anymore"
Love it. My company mandated them a bit back, and told one coworker he couldn't work again till two weeks after his second shit. He missed 5 weeks pay.
Just curious Chino, is your dad local to me in the bay?
Negative. He's in CT. He used to work in the CT offices until they shuttered them some time around 1997 or so. They wanted to move our fam out to Cali, but he didn't want to relocate. They retrofitted one of the rooms in his house to let him work from home, and he's been doing it for them since. Technically he's a part time contractor for them now and getting ready to retire for the third time :lol
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My father works for Kaiser Permanente out in Cali. He just sent me this text.
"Kaiser sent out today that if you didnt have proof of vaccination or a legit exemption by Dec 1, youre fired
And if you don't have it by OCT 1, you get put on UNPAID administrative leave until 12/1
They're not screwing around anymore"
Love it. My company mandated them a bit back, and told one coworker he couldn't work again till two weeks after his second shit. He missed 5 weeks pay.
That's a helluva shit!! :lol
I'd lay down next week's pay, giving away odds and take the under on that 42M number. Now, companies that mandate it BECAUSE it's now fully approved... THAT will move the needle. The full approval is an indirect cause though.
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And out come the mandates, NJ is now mandating all state workers to be vaccinated or get weekly testing.
But also, the state (for the first time to my knowledge, I could be wrong) have released some breakthrough #'s:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9feFPFXsAMJVJa?format=jpg&name=large)
Wow, those numbers are pretty damn strong to show the vaccines are working in NJ.
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And I'll bet every single one of those 58 deaths were either elderly, or had a pretty meaningful co-morbidity.
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And I'll bet every single one of those 58 deaths were either elderly, or had a pretty meaningful co-morbidity.
Oh, I'm sure of it too. That's basically been what a lot of vaccinated death data I've seen has shown. I'm not sure I've really seen any data of younger vaccinated people dying.
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So does this mean that the vaccine police can no longer site the Nuremberg Code now that it is FDA approved?
Just wondering what the next ludicrous rallying cry will be.
And what's the deal about the guy having to take 2 dumps before returning to work? I knock that out before lunch. Benefits of no gall bladder. :lol
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Well that FDA approval went on smoothly as I figured was going to occur based on how adamant they are for people to get the vaccine and demanding of mandates.
When does the EUA end, so that these lockdowns and quarantines, will be over and done with?
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Well that FDA approval went on smoothly as I figured was going to occur based on how adamant they are for people to get the vaccine and demanding of mandates.
When does the EUA end, so that these lockdowns and quarantines, will be over and done with?
EUA isn't ending, there's still the other two vaccines that don't seem to be getting FDA approval just yet. But what lockdowns and quarantines are you talking about? I'm not really aware of any lockdowns in the US at this point although there may be some in localized areas. Quarantining is only from positive tests as far as I know. Like no quarantining is necessary from travel right now or even exposure if you are vaccinated (from my understanding, I could be wrong).
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And what's the deal about the guy having to take 2 dumps before returning to work? I knock that out before lunch. Benefits of no gall bladder. :lol
Lunch!?!!? I'm usually 2 loafs in before breakfast! Coffee greases my skids.
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And what's the deal about the guy having to take 2 dumps before returning to work? I knock that out before lunch. Benefits of no gall bladder. :lol
Lunch!?!!? I'm usually 2 loafs in before breakfast! Coffee greases my skids.
I get one spectacular drop at 6:15am every morning, the only predictable part of my life. It could be before 6,but I wait to do it on company time.
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I'm an hourly employee, I wait to get into work to drop my deuces (and yes, there's usually two)
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You guys are fucked.
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You guys are fucked regular.
There. Fixed it.
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Got my third shot this morning. Compared to the tight ship DHS is running, Walgreens really sucked ass. Should have waited for another drive through clinic. I spent an hour in not hugely crowded store. I spent less than that waiting with 1000 other cars to get the first two.
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Got my third shot this morning. Compared to the tight ship DHS is running, Walgreens really sucked ass. Should have waited for another drive through clinic. I spent an hour in not hugely crowded store. I spent less than that waiting with 1000 other cars to get the first two.
Really? My experience with Walgreens was quite the opposite. Was in and out with little hassle other than a grumpy pharmacist with zero bedside manner. Was this your booster? Are you already at 8 months from your first round?
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Got my third shot this morning. Compared to the tight ship DHS is running, Walgreens really sucked ass. Should have waited for another drive through clinic. I spent an hour in not hugely crowded store. I spent less than that waiting with 1000 other cars to get the first two.
Was there any process on getting that 3rd shot? Or you just log into walgreens and sign up? I'm not sure I've heard of any standard for getting a booster at this point. Really just asking OOC, I don't plan on getting a booster yet.
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Got my third shot this morning. Compared to the tight ship DHS is running, Walgreens really sucked ass. Should have waited for another drive through clinic. I spent an hour in not hugely crowded store. I spent less than that waiting with 1000 other cars to get the first two.
Was there any process on getting that 3rd shot? Or you just log into walgreens and sign up? I'm not sure I've heard of any standard for getting a booster at this point. Really just asking OOC, I don't plan on getting a booster yet.
Isn't it an 8 month wait between doses 2 and 3?
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Got my third shot this morning. Compared to the tight ship DHS is running, Walgreens really sucked ass. Should have waited for another drive through clinic. I spent an hour in not hugely crowded store. I spent less than that waiting with 1000 other cars to get the first two.
Was there any process on getting that 3rd shot? Or you just log into walgreens and sign up? I'm not sure I've heard of any standard for getting a booster at this point. Really just asking OOC, I don't plan on getting a booster yet.
My father in law just walked into Walgreens and asked for a booster shot. No questions asked. I think stores have much more supply than they did in the spring, so you don't have to fight for appointments and book online.
Isn't it an 8 month wait between doses 2 and 3?
Immunocompromised individuals can get it ASAP.
Average joes should wait 8 months. That way there is enough supply for the people who got their shots in January/February to get their booster at the 8 month window (first responders, elderly, teachers, etc.)
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Immunocompromised individuals can get it ASAP.
Ding ding ding.
I wasn't aware of it until a few days ago, but the immunocompromised get a massively reduced antibody load from the MRNA vaccines. This doesn't directly correlate to vaccine efficacy as there are other factors involved, but people in my boat definitely aren't getting the protection others are. I think something like 45% of breakthrough cases are from people like me. Studies are showing that the third shot often improves things considerably, though.
Also, the average Joe shouldn't be getting boosters at all right now. Send all of America's third doses to the undeserved part of the world and maybe stave off another mutation. It may well work against us if we increase our collective immunity a tiny amount while letting half the world wait around totally exposed.
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Also, the average Joe shouldn't be getting boosters at all right now. Send all of America's third doses to the undeserved part of the world and maybe stave off another mutation. It may well work against us if we increase our collective immunity a tiny amount while letting half the world wait around totally exposed.
Ding ding ding.
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Immunocompromised individuals can get it ASAP.
Ding ding ding.
I wasn't aware of it until a few days ago, but the immunocompromised get a massively reduced antibody load from the MRNA vaccines. This doesn't directly correlate to vaccine efficacy as there are other factors involved, but people in my boat definitely aren't getting the protection others are. I think something like 45% of breakthrough cases are from people like me. Studies are showing that the third shot often improves things considerably, though.
Also, the average Joe shouldn't be getting boosters at all right now. Send all of America's third doses to the undeserved part of the world and maybe stave off another mutation. It may well work against us if we increase our collective immunity a tiny amount while letting half the world wait around totally exposed.
I think you are the first person to have spoken to about getting a booster, so I find it interesting hence my questions. I'm totally on board with your plan on giving our 3rd shots to other nations before using them on Americans other than the ones who need it the most. I did, this morning, see some data from Israel about the booster being pretty beneficial to those most compromised. I'm not anti booster, but for myself, I want to see more data on it. Also, as a J&J recipient, I'm very interested in seeing if it's needed more or not for myself. I've seen some conflicting articles (most with loose data, aka not peer reviewed) saying J&J definitely needs a booster or the opposite saying not needed.
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Immunocompromised individuals can get it ASAP.
Ding ding ding.
I wasn't aware of it until a few days ago, but the immunocompromised get a massively reduced antibody load from the MRNA vaccines. This doesn't directly correlate to vaccine efficacy as there are other factors involved, but people in my boat definitely aren't getting the protection others are. I think something like 45% of breakthrough cases are from people like me. Studies are showing that the third shot often improves things considerably, though.
Also, the average Joe shouldn't be getting boosters at all right now. Send all of America's third doses to the undeserved part of the world and maybe stave off another mutation. It may well work against us if we increase our collective immunity a tiny amount while letting half the world wait around totally exposed.
I don't disagree with anything you wrote but it's not like we will be in short supply to help others around the world. I say if it's there, take it. I felt a little guilty getting the shot before my elderly in-laws but you know what? We help take care of them so it actually made sense that we got the shot before them and besides, it was only a 2 week differential.
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Also, the average Joe shouldn't be getting boosters at all right now. Send all of America's third doses to the undeserved part of the world and maybe stave off another mutation. It may well work against us if we increase our collective immunity a tiny amount while letting half the world wait around totally exposed.
Ding ding ding.
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I'm 7 months out from my 2nd shot. Both came from my employer, a Healthcare system, so I wonder if they will be doing clinics for the booster. With my asthma and whatnot, I'm looking forward to it. Of course, I told my family they'd be in for a nice payday if I kick it. I'll bequeath my CD collection to Stadler and wolfking. :lol
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Ding ding ding.
I wasn't aware of it until a few days ago, but the immunocompromised get a massively reduced antibody load from the MRNA vaccines. This doesn't directly correlate to vaccine efficacy as there are other factors involved, but people in my boat definitely aren't getting the protection others are. I think something like 45% of breakthrough cases are from people like me. Studies are showing that the third shot often improves things considerably, though.
Also, the average Joe shouldn't be getting boosters at all right now. Send all of America's third doses to the undeserved part of the world and maybe stave off another mutation. It may well work against us if we increase our collective immunity a tiny amount while letting half the world wait around totally exposed.
Agree with this in principle, unfortunately there are logistical hurdles in supplying MRNA vaccines to some parts of the world as the cold chain isn't in place in a lot of countries. Still, the higher the percentage of people on earth who get vaccinated, the better.
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If my understanding is correct, we get more bang out of having everyone get at least one shot than we do some small cluster getting three doses.
As I get it:
1 shot gets you from "natural immunity" (whatever that might be) to about 45 or 50%
2 shots gets you from 45/50% to about 90 or 95%, which wanes over time.
3 shots gets those from whatever the 90/95% wanes to (say, 80 to 85%, though I think that is low) back to 95%.
Not talking about Bart, since he's not necessarily in this strata, but the first shot for those that haven't had any moves the needle a lot more than a booster shot. Granted, I agree with the "if it's going to go bad, take it", but if we're going forestall the next Delta before it happens, giving booster shots in Los Angeles and NYC isn't the path forward.
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As per early august (the 4th) 85% of the entire adult population of the Netherlands have had at least one shot. In general the people going for the first will do get their second as well. I am glad with how our statistics are going. Hopefully the 12-18 category will follow suit (and eventually the younger children). It seems our early statistics were accurate (90+% of the population is willing to be vaccinated).
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I watched Fauci interviewed by Anderson Cooper last night and I thought he came off terribly. For one, he mentioned the wrong time frame. He said he expected the US to return to normal in Fall of 2022 and then said that he miss spoke and he meant Spring of 2022. OK, but then he kept using new words "control" the virus when we have 80-90% vaccinated, not herd immunity like everyone has been talking about the last year. Just stop changing the words. This is why no one trusts what he says anymore.
In the US, it's very possible we are about to hit the plateau of delta. Cases overall are still rising, but not like they have been for the last month or two. It's slowing down. Hospitalizations are also slowing down overall, still rising just much much lower now. Maybe in another week or two, in theory, we could see the cases go down, however, with schools opening, we may just see this spike be sustained for a bit longer. But then again, with the US mostly completely open and maskless, it may not be too much of a spike with the schools. Is it that much different than going to a packed sporting event or concert? I guess we are going to find out soon enough. College football is about to start back up and it looks like all the big schools will be having games at full capacity (100k+ for PSU for example) and masks won't be required since it's outdoors.
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I watched Fauci interviewed by Anderson Cooper last night and I thought he came off terribly.
Well....not being conspiratorial or meaning any type of political agenda......but Fauci has been double and triple and quadruple talking out of his mouth for the past year and a half. Honestly, I don't know how anyone can take him seriously anymore given the amount of times he's contradicted himself....sometimes within days of the last comment.
It's time to remove him as the 'face' or the spokesperson for this whole deal.
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I watched Fauci interviewed by Anderson Cooper last night and I thought he came off terribly.
Well....not being conspiratorial or meaning any type of political agenda......but Fauci has been double and triple and quadruple talking out of his mouth for the past year and a half. Honestly, I don't know how anyone can take him seriously anymore given the amount of times he's contradicted himself....sometimes within days of the last comment.
It's time to remove him as the 'face' or the spokesperson for this whole deal.
Yeah, last night was not my personal turning point. I feel like about 6 months ago or so I finally stopped listening to him. His problem, IMO, is that he likes the spotlight too much and takes on way too many interviews. Where there's no doubt, over time, he's going to contradict himself and not just because the science changes over time with regards to a mutating virus, his own words now change too. I don't see him being removed or anything, but I really think the news networks or himself need to stop constantly having him on.
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That perfectly aligns with what I say about using "terminology" to manipulate, or coerce. Changing terminology consistently has indications of talking out of his ass, he was lying, is just incompetent, or has some other purpose.
People know Fauci and know he is like this since he's been the "white House doctor" for quite a while. It's why Rand Paul and him beef and butt heads because they're both Doctors and Rand Paul sees through Faucis inconsistent wording.
But he did let out a key terminology word..."Control"....
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Even a monkey knows the importance of masking. :lol
https://twitter.com/buitengebieden_/status/1430163324713455624?fbclid=IwAR0y4XoSrbLhXR5A3tuGyIUVeQ60MR5q6hOqDOYQ05U3a1cT6qfM_bsCQuQ
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Even a monkey knows the importance of masking. :lol
https://twitter.com/buitengebieden_/status/1430163324713455624?fbclid=IwAR0y4XoSrbLhXR5A3tuGyIUVeQ60MR5q6hOqDOYQ05U3a1cT6qfM_bsCQuQ
He's like..."Look, I'm a people."
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That perfectly aligns with what I say about using "terminology" to manipulate, or coerce. Changing terminology consistently has indications of talking out of his ass, he was lying, is just incompetent, or has some other purpose.
People know Fauci and know he is like this since he's been the "white House doctor" for quite a while. It's why Rand Paul and him beef and butt heads because they're both Doctors and Rand Paul sees through Faucis inconsistent wording.
But he did let out a key terminology word..."Control"....
I think there's an important thing to consider with Fauci, which is that he's worked for two very different presidents, and has had to temper his wording for each. Being a mouthpiece for Trump is an impossible job, after all. I'm not suggesting that any confusion isn't necessarily his fault, perhaps it is, but we do need to incorporate political reality into his messaging, which often times does create contradiction and confusion.
"Saddam Hussein is predictable and poses no external threat to his neighbors."
"No, what we actually meant was that he's a deranged madman with ambitions of global dominance, and must be stopped at any cost. Sorry for the confusion."
To be fair, this does make him a less than reliable source of information. If he's willing to incorporate political messaging into his information at the request of his higher-ups, he needs to be questioned. At the same time I see him as starkly different from somebody like Rand Paul, whose soul focus is on his own benefit. One is confusing what it is that he's supposed to be saying with what is actually true. The other is a lying scumbag.
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Politics likely do play a role, but I don't think Fauci held back too much under Trump. And it is still important that a mutating virus does mean things change and that's not really on Fauci if he's adapting to the latest information. However, my opinion is it has seem to gone beyond just that. Another forum I participate in, there's a lot more hate towards him there. I'm not that far into my dislike, I just kind of think he's enjoying the spotlight a lot more than he should be and that is what is leading to more contradictions than politics or the virus itself IMO.
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Politics likely do play a role, but I don't think Fauci held back too much under Trump. And it is still important that a mutating virus does mean things change and that's not really on Fauci if he's adapting to the latest information. However, my opinion is it has seem to gone beyond just that. Another forum I participate in, there's a lot more hate towards him there. I'm not that far into my dislike, I just kind of think he's enjoying the spotlight a lot more than he should be and that is what is leading to more contradictions than politics or the virus itself IMO.
Perhaps it's just my drug-addled memory, but I do recall him catching a whole lot of flack during the early days from Trumptards when his message was changing to suit the whims of his superiors. I recall him flip-flopping on masks quite a bit in the early days and having to justify varying conflicting advice about whether or not they should be worn. That's almost certainly a matter of political interference. I mean, I realize he's not an expert like Ted Nugent, but wearing masks to prevent the spread of germs has been a thing since the 1860s, and he knows that.
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Another forum I participate in,
Wait, wut? This does not compute.
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Politics likely do play a role, but I don't think Fauci held back too much under Trump. And it is still important that a mutating virus does mean things change and that's not really on Fauci if he's adapting to the latest information. However, my opinion is it has seem to gone beyond just that. Another forum I participate in, there's a lot more hate towards him there. I'm not that far into my dislike, I just kind of think he's enjoying the spotlight a lot more than he should be and that is what is leading to more contradictions than politics or the virus itself IMO.
Perhaps it's just my drug-addled memory, but I do recall him catching a whole lot of flack during the early days from Trumptards when his message was changing to suit the whims of his superiors. I recall him flip-flopping on masks quite a bit in the early days and having to justify varying conflicting advice about whether or not they should be worn. That's almost certainly a matter of political interference. I mean, I realize he's not an expert like Ted Nugent, but wearing masks to prevent the spread of germs has been a thing since the 1860s, and he knows that.
His reasoning was because we did not have enough masks at the time, so if he said we should wear masks, then the medical folks who needed them the most, would be the ones to suffer. Which kind of makes sense, it's not the worst of his flip flops but it is definitely one of the many examples people have used against him. I'm not really sure the mask thing was to please Trump at all. I could be wrong.
Another forum I participate in,
Wait, wut? This does not compute.
For Penn State football mostly, it's nothing like this forum, but it keeps me in the loop with the school and sports. It has a very active covid thread though.
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Another forum I participate in,
Wait, wut? This does not compute.
I feel so used.
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Another forum I participate in,
Wait, wut? This does not compute.
I feel so used.
You want a cookie and some milk?
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This is the only forum I use.
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Another forum I participate in.....
(https://i.imgur.com/gc3kIK7.gif)
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Politics likely do play a role, but I don't think Fauci held back too much under Trump. And it is still important that a mutating virus does mean things change and that's not really on Fauci if he's adapting to the latest information. However, my opinion is it has seem to gone beyond just that. Another forum I participate in, there's a lot more hate towards him there. I'm not that far into my dislike, I just kind of think he's enjoying the spotlight a lot more than he should be and that is what is leading to more contradictions than politics or the virus itself IMO.
Perhaps it's just my drug-addled memory, but I do recall him catching a whole lot of flack during the early days from Trumptards when his message was changing to suit the whims of his superiors. I recall him flip-flopping on masks quite a bit in the early days and having to justify varying conflicting advice about whether or not they should be worn. That's almost certainly a matter of political interference. I mean, I realize he's not an expert like Ted Nugent, but wearing masks to prevent the spread of germs has been a thing since the 1860s, and he knows that.
His reasoning was because we did not have enough masks at the time, so if he said we should wear masks, then the medical folks who needed them the most, would be the ones to suffer. Which kind of makes sense, it's not the worst of his flip flops but it is definitely one of the many examples people have used against him. I'm not really sure the mask thing was to please Trump at all. I could be wrong.
My statement here will be anecdotal and I fully recognize that but - I live in a town of 4K. We have one Chinese restaurant. Even before the shit hit the fan, my wife went looking for masks because she was restoring our living room table and needed masks so she could sand off the finish on the table. One place she went to was out of masks so she went to the hardware store where by luck, they found one package of 3. The guy said that the Chinese lady in town came and bought every mask they had with the intent of mailing them to relatives in China. I would imagine that's not the only account of this happening so maybe Fauci was right.
Hell we all know there was a run on toilet paper along with other shit.
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Politics likely do play a role, but I don't think Fauci held back too much under Trump. And it is still important that a mutating virus does mean things change and that's not really on Fauci if he's adapting to the latest information. However, my opinion is it has seem to gone beyond just that. Another forum I participate in, there's a lot more hate towards him there. I'm not that far into my dislike, I just kind of think he's enjoying the spotlight a lot more than he should be and that is what is leading to more contradictions than politics or the virus itself IMO.
Perhaps it's just my drug-addled memory, but I do recall him catching a whole lot of flack during the early days from Trumptards when his message was changing to suit the whims of his superiors. I recall him flip-flopping on masks quite a bit in the early days and having to justify varying conflicting advice about whether or not they should be worn. That's almost certainly a matter of political interference. I mean, I realize he's not an expert like Ted Nugent, but wearing masks to prevent the spread of germs has been a thing since the 1860s, and he knows that.
His reasoning was because we did not have enough masks at the time, so if he said we should wear masks, then the medical folks who needed them the most, would be the ones to suffer. Which kind of makes sense, it's not the worst of his flip flops but it is definitely one of the many examples people have used against him. I'm not really sure the mask thing was to please Trump at all. I could be wrong.
My statement here will be anecdotal and I fully recognize that but - I live in a town of 4K. We have one Chinese restaurant. Even before the shit hit the fan, my wife went looking for masks because she was restoring our living room table and needed masks so she could sand off the finish on the table. One place she went to was out of masks so she went to the hardware store where by luck, they found one package of 3. The guy said that the Chinese lady in town came and bought every mask they had with the intent of mailing them to relatives in China. I would imagine that's not the only account of this happening so maybe Fauci was right.
Hell we all know there was a run on toilet paper along with other shit.
The irony is that the Chinese then turned around and sold them to us. :lol
In the end, the great material continuum worked out pretty well. China got all of the PPE early on when they were the epicenter. When their situation cooled down and ours started heating up they sent them all our way. Of course it sucks to live in one of the shithole countries, but I think that already goes without saying.
In any case, Fauci was correct on both points. Leave them for the front line workers, and then later when supplies increased, suggesting everybody wear them. There was still a contradiction there in the minds of plenty, though, and those add up. Allegations don't have to be accurate if there are enough of them to suggest a problem.
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In March/April 2020, I couldn't find a mask at all in my area of the Chicago suburbs, let alone that coveted N-95. We ordered a dozen bandannas through Amazon in April, but it took 30 days to get them because of the rush on face coverings and masks. They arrived just before Illinois instituted their first mask mandate. Later that summer, I was able to get some fabric ones at Target.
I have no doubt that Fauci was right in that instance - he was aware of a potential public panic over masks and prioritized the health industry at the time. We all know that Trump was holding the national PPE stockpile hostage and dolling them out on a whim to his favored states, so I'm sure Fauci had that in the back of his mind as well - the national backstop wouldn't be there for some as it would others.
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Just remember the toilet paper, and I think we all know if Fauci said early on that masks were needed, well, you know where that was going to go.
There was still a contradiction there in the minds of plenty, though, and those add up. Allegations don't have to be accurate if there are enough of them to suggest a problem.
And this is kind of my bigger point. I'm sure there were political reasons to contradict things too even if I can't immediately think of an example, but add these into the legit changes due to the virus changing and you have a nice stockpile of evidence to show Fauci contradicts himself. I see it a lot on tiktok. Not just with Fauci, but with all our political leaders as well. They show a clip from March 2020 and a clip from June 2021 that show contradictory statements. Some legit, some a bit more questionable, but the end result is people losing trust.
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And this is kind of my bigger point. I'm sure there were political reasons to contradict things too even if I can't immediately think of an example, but add these into the legit changes due to the virus changing and you have a nice stockpile of evidence to show Fauci contradicts himself. I see it a lot on tiktok. Not just with Fauci, but with all our political leaders as well. They show a clip from March 2020 and a clip from June 2021 that show contradictory statements. Some legit, some a bit more questionable, but the end result is people losing trust.
A good portion of the people that dislike Fauci now only do because Trump told them to. He turned his back on Fauci (for contradicting him) and his faithful followers did the same. I have a habit of doing a lot of Facebook sleuthing - I'll read some [bonehead] comment and click a person's profile and see if they fit a particular mold. If someone bashes Fauci, you can bet they have an American flag in a profile picture, something pro-Trump, and some Christian/biblical quote somewhere on their personal profile.
I respected Fauci a lot in 2020 for finally putting his foot down and deciding to disobey Trump. I don't pay close enough attention now to really have a reason to dislike him.
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Wait, so having an American flag now in your profile picture is considered a bad thing? Interesting. ;)
And I guess I should tell the lady at work who is very Christian and is also a big time Democrat that she needs to reject Biden and start loving Trump, right? :lol :P
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Just saying that it generally fits a pattern, that's all. The Fauci hating didn't really start until Trump targeted him.
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That may be, but he has shown himself to be a bit of clown show as more time has gone on, and to dismiss criticism of him as merely coming from flag-waving Trumpers and then basically wave off any new criticism under the banner of "eh, I am not really paying attention" seems more than a bit odd, IMO.
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In March/April 2020, I couldn't find a mask at all in my area of the Chicago suburbs, let alone that coveted N-95. We ordered a dozen bandannas through Amazon in April, but it took 30 days to get them because of the rush on face coverings and masks. They arrived just before Illinois instituted their first mask mandate. Later that summer, I was able to get some fabric ones at Target.
I have no doubt that Fauci was right in that instance - he was aware of a potential public panic over masks and prioritized the health industry at the time. We all know that Trump was holding the national PPE stockpile hostage and dolling them out on a whim to his favored states, so I'm sure Fauci had that in the back of his mind as well - the national backstop wouldn't be there for some as it would others.
We do?
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Just remember the toilet paper, and I think we all know if Fauci said early on that masks were needed, well, you know where that was going to go.
There was still a contradiction there in the minds of plenty, though, and those add up. Allegations don't have to be accurate if there are enough of them to suggest a problem.
And this is kind of my bigger point. I'm sure there were political reasons to contradict things too even if I can't immediately think of an example, but add these into the legit changes due to the virus changing and you have a nice stockpile of evidence to show Fauci contradicts himself. I see it a lot on tiktok. Not just with Fauci, but with all our political leaders as well. They show a clip from March 2020 and a clip from June 2021 that show contradictory statements. Some legit, some a bit more questionable, but the end result is people losing trust.
I'm with you, Cram; political reasons are political reasons, and justifying them just reinforces the political underpinnings. I'm not naive to the way the world works, but if we're going to call out "political reasons" when it's the "other team", we ought - in the spirit of the divisiveness that is paralyzing our country in countless ways - at least RECOGNIZE if not (preferably ALSO call out) the "political reasons" when it's someone we consider to be on "our team".
We have, because of that political divide, a crisis of credibility, and he didn't help that. There are ways of communicating that message that doesn't compromise. He didn't take it, and now that the primary reason for that (Trump) is gone, he's STILL not taking it. I have respect for Fauci, and I will probably consider what he says because I'm able to look past bumper stickers and I'm willing to allow my "experts" to change their minds, but I was also the first in line to be vaccinated, and I don't consider wearing a mask to be a Constitutional violation (though the CHOICE to wear a mask is).
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I don't like or dislike Fauci. The guy was in a tough spot dealing with a virus that nobody had any idea about, learning on the fly about it, and dealing with Trump.
But I can't help think, every time I open my computer, and some interview he did is featured or quoted, that.....why is he always yapping..every day? Doesn't he have some actual work to do? Read a journal, do an experiment?
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I don't like or dislike Fauci. The guy was in a tough spot dealing with a virus that nobody had any idea about, learning on the fly about it, and dealing with Trump.
But I can't help think, every time I open my computer, and some interview he did is featured or quoted, that.....why is he always yapping..every day? Doesn't he have some actual work to do? Read a journal, do an experiment?
I would assume, as the director of the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases, that he has a massive team of scientists and researchers doing that for him and presenting him with the most recent data.
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I don't like or dislike Fauci. The guy was in a tough spot dealing with a virus that nobody had any idea about, learning on the fly about it, and dealing with Trump.
But I can't help think, every time I open my computer, and some interview he did is featured or quoted, that.....why is he always yapping..every day? Doesn't he have some actual work to do? Read a journal, do an experiment?
I would assume, as the director of the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases, that he has a massive team of scientists and researchers doing that for him and presenting him with the most recent data.
Well, yes, of course. And his job IS to be the mouth piece. I'm not bashing him by any stretch. Just making that clear.
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In March/April 2020, I couldn't find a mask at all in my area of the Chicago suburbs, let alone that coveted N-95. We ordered a dozen bandannas through Amazon in April, but it took 30 days to get them because of the rush on face coverings and masks. They arrived just before Illinois instituted their first mask mandate. Later that summer, I was able to get some fabric ones at Target.
I have no doubt that Fauci was right in that instance - he was aware of a potential public panic over masks and prioritized the health industry at the time. We all know that Trump was holding the national PPE stockpile hostage and dolling them out on a whim to his favored states, so I'm sure Fauci had that in the back of his mind as well - the national backstop wouldn't be there for some as it would others.
We do?
Whether you (royal, not you specifically Bill) believed the media reports from March '20 or not, it was pretty well reported that he was directing PPE supplies, oftentimes away from Democratically led areas. Remember the tiff he had with Whittmer/Michigan? He also specifically directed 3M not to sell N95 masks to Canada (though that backfired when Trudeau hinted that we wouldn't sell the raw materials to 3M in order to make the masks :lol).
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-admin-seizing-ppe/
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... I don't consider wearing a mask to be a Constitutional violation (though the CHOICE to wear a mask is).
Genuine question... how is the choice to wear a mask a Constitutional violation? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your wording. Are you suggesting mask mandates are a violation of constitutional rights?
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In March/April 2020, I couldn't find a mask at all in my area of the Chicago suburbs, let alone that coveted N-95. We ordered a dozen bandannas through Amazon in April, but it took 30 days to get them because of the rush on face coverings and masks. They arrived just before Illinois instituted their first mask mandate. Later that summer, I was able to get some fabric ones at Target.
I have no doubt that Fauci was right in that instance - he was aware of a potential public panic over masks and prioritized the health industry at the time. We all know that Trump was holding the national PPE stockpile hostage and dolling them out on a whim to his favored states, so I'm sure Fauci had that in the back of his mind as well - the national backstop wouldn't be there for some as it would others.
We do?
Whether you (royal, not you specifically Bill) believed the media reports from March '20 or not, it was pretty well reported that he was directing PPE supplies, oftentimes away from Democratically led areas. Remember the tiff he had with Whittmer/Michigan? He also specifically directed 3M not to sell N95 masks to Canada (though that backfired when Trudeau hinted that we wouldn't sell the raw materials to 3M in order to make the masks :lol).
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-admin-seizing-ppe/
FEMA, and not Trump, and "we rate this claim “Mostly True” — with the caveat that the intervention efforts appear to be a part of a broader distribution plan that purportedly aims to get supplies to regions with the most urgent needs."
I think if "Trump" the name wasn't tied to this no one would have any beef with getting supplies to "regions with the most urgent needs".
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... I don't consider wearing a mask to be a Constitutional violation (though the CHOICE to wear a mask is).
Genuine question... how is the choice to wear a mask a Constitutional violation? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your wording. Are you suggesting mask mandates are a violation of constitutional rights?
My bad for being sloppy; it's not that the CHOICE is the violation; it's the taking away of the choice that MAY be a violation. Yes, I am suggesting that there is a Constitutional argument - the right to privacy, the same theory that makes abortions legal - against mandates. I'm not saying it's a GOOD argument, just that it is an issue (though the argument is FAR stronger for vaccines than masks).
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But I can't help think, every time I open my computer, and some interview he did is featured or quoted, that.....why is he always yapping..every day? Doesn't he have some actual work to do? Read a journal, do an experiment?
This is my main issue with him. He shouldn't be on TV every day and it's what IMO ultimately leads to his contradictions.
A good portion of the people that dislike Fauci now only do because Trump told them to.
I don't think this was pinpointed towards me, but just wanted to be clear that I don't listen to Trump. My dislike for Fauci is more recent than Trump's disliking of him and goes back to what I said above. I don't think the guy has any ill intentions, but I think he focuses way too much on basking in the spotlight. Having said that, I would love to know the truth about his involvement in the Wuhan lab.
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A good portion of the people that dislike Fauci now only do because Trump told them to.
I don't think this was pinpointed towards me, but just wanted to be clear that I don't listen to Trump. My dislike for Fauci is more recent than Trump's disliking of him and goes back to what I said above. I don't think the guy has any ill intentions, but I think he focuses way too much on basking in the spotlight. Having said that, I would love to know the truth about his involvement in the Wuhan lab.
I'm with you; my skepticism has NOTHING to do with Trump at all. It's simply the fact that he's become a lightning rod for each of the sides. It's science; it's supposed to be independent of ideology.
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Things I know for a fact:
—My wife is 8 months pregnant and at a higher risk for illnesses of any kind.
—My 3 yo nephew is currently on oxygen, sick with RSV and pnemonia.
—My mother works for the Ohio Department of Health, and has nothing but heartbreaking horror stories for the past year and a half...she is scared to death every day that she goes to work.
It's a small list, but those are things I know for a fact, have witnessed first hand.
I'm pretty apolitical, but in regards to the health of those I love, I am deeply concerned and damn near ready and willing to do anything that will possibly protect those I love.
I don't care if it's a one percent chance—wear a mask everywhere I go? Sure. Take a vaccine? Sure. Hoenstly, whatever they want me to do, if it has a chance of protecting my wife and kid, I'm game.
I honestly don't know what that makes me—liberal? Conservative? Both? Again, I'm not a registered anything, so I'm really out of my depth here. I'm just a hard-working guy who wants everyone I know to live a long, full life.
The 'mask' thing seems like such an odd thing for me. I get it, trust me, I do. It's divisive. I've literally had people threaten violence against me over the past year over wearing a mask. I have a sister that refuses to see me bc I've requested that she wear a mask around my unvaccinated wife.
But there's another part of me that will never understand how public health and politics got so muddeled together. Or, perhaps a better way to say it is this: I understand 'how' it happened, but it strikes me as an incredibly sad state of affairs.
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A good portion of the people that dislike Fauci now only do because Trump told them to.
I don't think this was pinpointed towards me, but just wanted to be clear that I don't listen to Trump. My dislike for Fauci is more recent than Trump's disliking of him and goes back to what I said above. I don't think the guy has any ill intentions, but I think he focuses way too much on basking in the spotlight. Having said that, I would love to know the truth about his involvement in the Wuhan lab.
I'm with you; my skepticism has NOTHING to do with Trump at all. It's simply the fact that he's become a lightning rod for each of the sides. It's science; it's supposed to be independent of ideology.
I honestly feel that's where Fauci is coming from as well. He's a good man, stuck in the most difficult position in ages, being the mouthpiece for a new variant of science that is changing daily, under the most discerning of microscopes, the highly partisan, very lowly science educated American populace. The average American knows dick of the scientific process, yet because of social media, and partisan media like CNN and FOX, have a voice collectively equal to Fauci's.
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I honestly don't know what that makes me—liberal? Conservative? Both? Again, I'm not a registered anything, so I'm really out of my depth here. I'm just a hard-working guy who wants everyone I know to live a long, full life.
We are talking a virus here, it should have NOTHING to do with your political views. Sadly, we all know that is not the reality though.
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I honestly don't know what that makes me—liberal? Conservative? Both? Again, I'm not a registered anything, so I'm really out of my depth here. I'm just a hard-working guy who wants everyone I know to live a long, full life.
We are talking a virus here, it should have NOTHING to do with your political views. Sadly, we all know that is not the reality though.
I hear you...but over the past two years, this has morphed into a very political issue...at least, in my personal interactions.
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I honestly don't know what that makes me—liberal? Conservative? Both? Again, I'm not a registered anything, so I'm really out of my depth here. I'm just a hard-working guy who wants everyone I know to live a long, full life.
I think it makes you human.
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A good portion of the people that dislike Fauci now only do because Trump told them to.
I don't think this was pinpointed towards me, but just wanted to be clear that I don't listen to Trump. My dislike for Fauci is more recent than Trump's disliking of him and goes back to what I said above. I don't think the guy has any ill intentions, but I think he focuses way too much on basking in the spotlight. Having said that, I would love to know the truth about his involvement in the Wuhan lab.
No it wasn't pinpointed at you, no worries. :)
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I honestly don't know what that makes me—liberal? Conservative? Both? Again, I'm not a registered anything, so I'm really out of my depth here. I'm just a hard-working guy who wants everyone I know to live a long, full life.
It makes you a sheeple, actually. That's one of the things that fascinates me. All of these asshats that have determined they're smarter than the entire global medical community overlook the fact that if their conspiracy were true, it would be the first time in history that the entire planet all united for a single goal. Republicans/democrats/socialists/capitalists/democracies/dictatorships/dogs/cats/Christians/Moslems/Jews, are all of the same mindset, wear a mask and get vaccinated, yet apparently it's a conspiracy by the American government to control us all.
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In March/April 2020, I couldn't find a mask at all in my area of the Chicago suburbs, let alone that coveted N-95. We ordered a dozen bandannas through Amazon in April, but it took 30 days to get them because of the rush on face coverings and masks. They arrived just before Illinois instituted their first mask mandate. Later that summer, I was able to get some fabric ones at Target.
I have no doubt that Fauci was right in that instance - he was aware of a potential public panic over masks and prioritized the health industry at the time. We all know that Trump was holding the national PPE stockpile hostage and dolling them out on a whim to his favored states, so I'm sure Fauci had that in the back of his mind as well - the national backstop wouldn't be there for some as it would others.
We do?
Trump withheld ventilators and PPE from Illinois during the early days of the pandemic solely because we have a Democrat governor that was highly critical of him. Our governor had to spend $2M to get shipments of PPE from China to Illinois.
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I honestly don't know what that makes me—liberal? Conservative? Both? Again, I'm not a registered anything, so I'm really out of my depth here. I'm just a hard-working guy who wants everyone I know to live a long, full life.
It makes you a sheeple, actually. That's one of the things that fascinates me. All of these asshats that have determined they're smarter than the entire global medical community overlook the fact that if their conspiracy were true, it would be the first time in history that the entire planet all united for a single goal. Republicans/democrats/socialists/capitalists/democracies/dictatorships/dogs/cats/Christians/Moslems/Jews, are all of the same mindset, wear a mask and get vaccinated, yet apparently it's a conspiracy by the American government to control us all.
Wanting the best for others makes me sheep? Interesting take—thanks for the blanket assessment of my character based on a post on DT forums. :-\
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But there's another part of me that will never understand how public health and politics got so muddeled together. Or, perhaps a better way to say it is this: I understand 'how' it happened, but it strikes me as an incredibly sad state of affairs.
Sorry about the way things are for you, wishing good health to your wife and baby. I spoke about this before, but I believe (IMO), had the pandemic started in 2021, 2018 or 2017, this would not have transformed into a political issue in the US. The fact that it happen during an election year, while candidates were supposed to be campaigning is why this health issue became political (Again, just my opinion).
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I could have sworn I remember reading that the owner of the Patriots used the team plane to sneak millions of masks into the country in secret because the last administration was seizing all incoming shipments, hording them, and not distributing them to states like MA. He worked with the governor to sneak them into the state.
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In March/April 2020, I couldn't find a mask at all in my area of the Chicago suburbs, let alone that coveted N-95. We ordered a dozen bandannas through Amazon in April, but it took 30 days to get them because of the rush on face coverings and masks. They arrived just before Illinois instituted their first mask mandate. Later that summer, I was able to get some fabric ones at Target.
I have no doubt that Fauci was right in that instance - he was aware of a potential public panic over masks and prioritized the health industry at the time. We all know that Trump was holding the national PPE stockpile hostage and dolling them out on a whim to his favored states, so I'm sure Fauci had that in the back of his mind as well - the national backstop wouldn't be there for some as it would others.
We do?
I'm actually with you on this. "He did?" was my first thought when reading that. At the same time, I don't think we can really dispute that he was anti-mask for a very long time, and that's a huge part of the Fauci problem we're discussing. He didn't like wearing them, and his primary concern (and I think you'll agree here) was about the optics of how he was handling this. People wearing masks didn't look good for him, from his perspective of how a good president should look.
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I honestly don't know what that makes me—liberal? Conservative? Both? Again, I'm not a registered anything, so I'm really out of my depth here. I'm just a hard-working guy who wants everyone I know to live a long, full life.
It makes you a sheeple, actually. That's one of the things that fascinates me. All of these asshats that have determined they're smarter than the entire global medical community overlook the fact that if their conspiracy were true, it would be the first time in history that the entire planet all united for a single goal. Republicans/democrats/socialists/capitalists/democracies/dictatorships/dogs/cats/Christians/Moslems/Jews, are all of the same mindset, wear a mask and get vaccinated, yet apparently it's a conspiracy by the American government to control us all.
Wanting the best for others makes me sheep? Interesting take—thanks for the blanket assessment of my character based on a post on DT forums. :-\
Dude, I'm on your side here. The people that would call you a sheep are fucking idiots.
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I honestly don't know what that makes me—liberal? Conservative? Both? Again, I'm not a registered anything, so I'm really out of my depth here. I'm just a hard-working guy who wants everyone I know to live a long, full life.
It makes you a sheeple, actually. That's one of the things that fascinates me. All of these asshats that have determined they're smarter than the entire global medical community overlook the fact that if their conspiracy were true, it would be the first time in history that the entire planet all united for a single goal. Republicans/democrats/socialists/capitalists/democracies/dictatorships/dogs/cats/Christians/Moslems/Jews, are all of the same mindset, wear a mask and get vaccinated, yet apparently it's a conspiracy by the American government to control us all.
Wanting the best for others makes me sheep? Interesting take—thanks for the blanket assessment of my character based on a post on DT forums. :-\
Dude, I'm on your side here. The people that would call you a sheep are fucking idiots.
Ahhh. Gotcha—I complete misread you. Thanks for the clarification. No worries here.
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Here's an article about the Fauci interview with Anderson Cooper I mentioned yesterday
https://www.yahoo.com/news/fauci-predicts-good-control-over-000400864.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/fauci-predicts-good-control-over-000400864.html)
In answering Cooper's follow-up question about what he meant by getting "control" of the virus, Fauci said it translated to a "degree of overall blanket protection of the community" that could see a return to "a degree of normality, namely reassuming the things that we were hoping we could do. Restaurants, theaters, that kind of thing."
This quote kind of confused me when I was watching because.... his examples are all things that people are doing already. Other than wearing a mask, it's basically already back to normal. I have no idea what he's talking about. Are there parts of the US that still have no indoor dining or things shutdown?
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The following is a good article of a lady and how she got sucked into what I consider a cult. It gives good insight quickly people can change and possibly answer the "how could this ever have happened"?
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/08/13/qanon-radicalization-bernie-sanders-supporter-503295
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Maybe it's just me, but it seems like all of the people really up in arms about masks and vaccines are middle aged white women. The guys seem content to just post silly shit on the interwebs like they always do. It's the soccer moms that are out protesting, and screaming about Nazis on the local news. Seems kind of strange to me.
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There are definitely a lot of Karen's out there. Then there are also people like this.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-08-24/lafd-captain-attacks-city-vaccination-requirement
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Found out today that my company (Healthcare) is making the vaccine a requirement for employment, just like the flu shot.
I never got the flu shot until it got tied to my employment. My response when it was? I got the shot. Seemed rather simple. I already have the covid vax since January so I'm good there. About ready for my booster now.
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Here's an article about the Fauci interview with Anderson Cooper I mentioned yesterday
https://www.yahoo.com/news/fauci-predicts-good-control-over-000400864.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/fauci-predicts-good-control-over-000400864.html)
In answering Cooper's follow-up question about what he meant by getting "control" of the virus, Fauci said it translated to a "degree of overall blanket protection of the community" that could see a return to "a degree of normality, namely reassuming the things that we were hoping we could do. Restaurants, theaters, that kind of thing."
This quote kind of confused me when I was watching because.... his examples are all things that people are doing already. Other than wearing a mask, it's basically already back to normal. I have no idea what he's talking about. Are there parts of the US that still have no indoor dining or things shutdown?
There are places who still have restrictions (though more locally rather than statewide), as well as the required vaccination proof for certain events. Also, certain private business have their own restrictions.
I went out to dinner a few nights ago. I forgot that NYC restaurants are required to check for proof of vaccination so I was a bit surprised when they asked. The place was a ghost town. Literally nobody else in the restaurant while I was there except for a couple that sat down about 5 minutes before I was done.
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I know they haven't made it official about booster shots but what was the estimate on how long the 1st 2 shots would last? Was it 8 months? I can't remember.
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There are definitely a lot of Karen's out there. Then there are also people like this.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-08-24/lafd-captain-attacks-city-vaccination-requirement
Like I said, there are certainly angry men venting about it. It's just that whenever I see a picture it's always middle aged white women. I just searched mask protesters, and this was the very first image that came up.
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AANJBwV.img?h=533&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=842&y=442)
Notice how disinterested the men in this picture look.
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I know they haven't made it official about booster shots but what was the estimate on how long the 1st 2 shots would last? Was it 8 months? I can't remember.
As with everything else, they are still figuring it out.
https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/features/covid-19-vaccine-booster-shots-what-do-we-know/
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Notice how disinterested the men in this picture look.
The women look that way too. From my experience, I'm not sure I noticed a difference, I see it from both sexes.
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The following is a good article of a lady and how she got sucked into what I consider a cult. It gives good insight quickly people can change and possibly answer the "how could this ever have happened"?
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/08/13/qanon-radicalization-bernie-sanders-supporter-503295
Those articles alternately fascinate me, frustrate me and anger me.
Fascinate me: how people can immerse themselves so much in to one basket of thinking. There's not a subject/topic on the planet where I don't see comparing and contrasting views in real life. And while I have my way of looking at things, I also strongly believe that I HAVE - not should, not want, but HAVE - to incorporate those facts that DON'T fit my worldview in. I don't get to ignore the things that don't fit. These people are quite comfortable in doing that.
Frustrate me: That people will read that and point fingers at Qanon, fuckin' weirdos, but will ignore things like "One thing QAnon and Bernie have in common is the belief that there is a group of corrupt elites that makes it hard for everyone else in the country and the world to stay afloat. I hadn’t trusted the government entirely before 2016 — for example, I didn’t find the explanations of 9/11 or the assassination of John F. Kennedy to be satisfactory. But my distrust only strengthened when I started to support Bernie that year." even though I've been saying for months/years that the difference between those on the "right side of history" and those not is rather slim and maybe even not that different at all.
Anger me: that there is almost no personal accountability in that article. "I was radicalized"; where is the ownership of that? Where is the accountability? I was stressed; I was depressed; I was this; I was that. At what point - if at all - do we say "I'm the captain of my ship. I'm responsible for my actions and my beliefs and my feelings"? And if we're NOT accountable, if "shit happens" to people and they get caught unawares, why doesn't that apply to the OTHER deplorables? Why does it seem like only some of us get to distance, but others - usually the "them" in the "us versus them" equation, not-so-coincidentially - are held to a different standard?
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... I don't consider wearing a mask to be a Constitutional violation (though the CHOICE to wear a mask is).
Genuine question... how is the choice to wear a mask a Constitutional violation? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your wording. Are you suggesting mask mandates are a violation of constitutional rights?
My bad for being sloppy; it's not that the CHOICE is the violation; it's the taking away of the choice that MAY be a violation. Yes, I am suggesting that there is a Constitutional argument - the right to privacy, the same theory that makes abortions legal - against mandates. I'm not saying it's a GOOD argument, just that it is an issue (though the argument is FAR stronger for vaccines than masks).
My take is that everyone has a choice... there are simply consequences to their choices. In this regard, no Gestapo is regulating mask usage.
No one is having their choice to wear a seatbelt taken away, you just get a ticket if you're caught.
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... I don't consider wearing a mask to be a Constitutional violation (though the CHOICE to wear a mask is).
Genuine question... how is the choice to wear a mask a Constitutional violation? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your wording. Are you suggesting mask mandates are a violation of constitutional rights?
My bad for being sloppy; it's not that the CHOICE is the violation; it's the taking away of the choice that MAY be a violation. Yes, I am suggesting that there is a Constitutional argument - the right to privacy, the same theory that makes abortions legal - against mandates. I'm not saying it's a GOOD argument, just that it is an issue (though the argument is FAR stronger for vaccines than masks).
My take is that everyone has a choice... there are simply consequences to their choices. In this regard, no Gestapo is regulating mask usage.
No one is having their choice to wear a seatbelt taken away, you just get a ticket if you're caught.
As long as the "consequences" are fair and reasonable. I have a problem when the "consequences" are Draconian in nature and don't really allow for a choice. When the "Mob" is in charge of determining those "consequences", the chances of fairness drop exponentially. This gets even worse as time and distance intervene (I'm thinking of those cases where people are today bearing the brunt of "consequences" unilaterally imposed retroactively on events/actions/choices made 10, 20 or even more years ago.)
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People always have a choice.
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People always have a choice.
Even if you choose not to decide.
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People always have a choice.
Do they, though? These conversations always seem so different depending on what side of the prism you're on. Replace "vaccine" (or "tweet like Gina Carano"; she's no different than those who don't want to get the vaccine, at least in the context of the vaunted "consequences") with "join a union", or "want to take extended paternity leave" or any of a number of other things that many of you would fight tooth and nail to have "protections" over and the conversation gets muddy in a heartbeat.
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All choices have consequences. Some might not want to (or be able to) accept/deal with those consequences, but there is always choice. My number 1 rule in life is "the only thing you have to do is breathe - everything else is a choice."
That's just me.
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... I don't consider wearing a mask to be a Constitutional violation (though the CHOICE to wear a mask is).
Genuine question... how is the choice to wear a mask a Constitutional violation? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your wording. Are you suggesting mask mandates are a violation of constitutional rights?
My bad for being sloppy; it's not that the CHOICE is the violation; it's the taking away of the choice that MAY be a violation. Yes, I am suggesting that there is a Constitutional argument - the right to privacy, the same theory that makes abortions legal - against mandates. I'm not saying it's a GOOD argument, just that it is an issue (though the argument is FAR stronger for vaccines than masks).
My take is that everyone has a choice... there are simply consequences to their choices. In this regard, no Gestapo is regulating mask usage.
No one is having their choice to wear a seatbelt taken away, you just get a ticket if you're caught.
As long as the "consequences" are fair and reasonable. I have a problem when the "consequences" are Draconian in nature and don't really allow for a choice. When the "Mob" is in charge of determining those "consequences", the chances of fairness drop exponentially. This gets even worse as time and distance intervene (I'm thinking of those cases where people are today bearing the brunt of "consequences" unilaterally imposed retroactively on events/actions/choices made 10, 20 or even more years ago.)
Generally speaking, I agree with you. You and I have almost always been on the same side here, and in this case I might even go so far as to say that the consequences are harsh enough to preclude it from being an actual "choice." Not being able to send your kid to school, a school you've paid for, crosses a line in my book. At the same time, this is a line that has existed for a century. Certain vaccinations are required to attend schools, public or private, and we've accepted this. In fact, almost all of these mandates have been supported by the courts. I don't see this as the mob dictating actions and eliminating choice. I see it simply matter of public health, which has long been the government's domain.
Seems to me, at least insofar as schools go, some sort of intervention would make sense. Have some calm and nonthreatening Dr Phil type explain it to parents in simple, undisputed terms and statistics. Here's how many people have received the vaccine and here are the numbers of people who've died and/or grown third appendages as a result. Here are the number of people who've contracted Covid, the number who have died, and the number of those who were vaccinated and unvaccinated. Really, the numbers speak for themselves here. If you can't get over it after that, you should probably just homeschool your kid. In truth you're already pretty likely to screw your kid up either way. The world needs ditch-diggers, and for my part, I'll add titty-dancers to that time-honored witticism. I'm sure Ted Knight would approve.
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All choices have consequences. Some might not want to (or be able to) accept/deal with those consequences, but there is always choice. My number 1 rule in life is "the only thing you have to do is breathe - everything else is a choice."
That's just me.
Cam Newton is a good example of this in the last 4 days.
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People always have a choice.
Even if you choose not to decide.
:clap:
(couldn't let it hang man)
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The opening of schools here in Florida has been a disaster. It was predictable. Many schools already had to close. Tens of thousands are quarantined. Sick kids brought it home to parents. It's quite a dilemma. I wish I had an answer or a solution but there isn't one.
On top of this, the CEO of Pfizer has said he's concerned that eventually a variant will emerge that is resistant to the vaccine. After almost 2 years of this, with no end in sight, the inner-doom that resides in the recesses of my psyche wonders if this will be a near- extinction event for humanity. Will it eventually wipe out a huge number of humans. Or maybe I'm just having another brutal day at work and my thoughts are polluted by it.
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There's a part of me that always fears a deadlier variant, it's not just you bud. Hang in there.
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... I don't consider wearing a mask to be a Constitutional violation (though the CHOICE to wear a mask is).
Genuine question... how is the choice to wear a mask a Constitutional violation? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your wording. Are you suggesting mask mandates are a violation of constitutional rights?
My bad for being sloppy; it's not that the CHOICE is the violation; it's the taking away of the choice that MAY be a violation. Yes, I am suggesting that there is a Constitutional argument - the right to privacy, the same theory that makes abortions legal - against mandates. I'm not saying it's a GOOD argument, just that it is an issue (though the argument is FAR stronger for vaccines than masks).
My take is that everyone has a choice... there are simply consequences to their choices. In this regard, no Gestapo is regulating mask usage.
No one is having their choice to wear a seatbelt taken away, you just get a ticket if you're caught.
In this case, it's not just giving you a ticket if caught. Your entire car and driving privileges are revoked. All for choosing not to wear a seatbelt. You can still walk, but it's a bit more difficult than it is to drive.
I am sure people took the vaccine because they don't want to walk, they'd rather drive, so in this instance people chose to wear the seatbelt.
... I don't consider wearing a mask to be a Constitutional violation (though the CHOICE to wear a mask is).
Genuine question... how is the choice to wear a mask a Constitutional violation? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your wording. Are you suggesting mask mandates are a violation of constitutional rights?
My bad for being sloppy; it's not that the CHOICE is the violation; it's the taking away of the choice that MAY be a violation. Yes, I am suggesting that there is a Constitutional argument - the right to privacy, the same theory that makes abortions legal - against mandates. I'm not saying it's a GOOD argument, just that it is an issue (though the argument is FAR stronger for vaccines than masks).
My take is that everyone has a choice... there are simply consequences to their choices. In this regard, no Gestapo is regulating mask usage.
No one is having their choice to wear a seatbelt taken away, you just get a ticket if you're caught.
As long as the "consequences" are fair and reasonable. I have a problem when the "consequences" are Draconian in nature and don't really allow for a choice. When the "Mob" is in charge of determining those "consequences", the chances of fairness drop exponentially. This gets even worse as time and distance intervene (I'm thinking of those cases where people are today bearing the brunt of "consequences" unilaterally imposed retroactively on events/actions/choices made 10, 20 or even more years ago.)
Some actually consider those "time and distant" consequences as being Karma. Paying for the choices you made in the past.
Here you can use food, and smoking as examples. People get heart attacks, why? People die from smoking, why? How fast do these people die? It takes time, but they will eventually die as long as they continue choosing to keep doing these things, such as eating the highly fat, sugar loaded, deep fried in bacon grease, fair food, or taking that sweet puff of the Pall Malls.
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So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do? Places now do not allow smoking inside. So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.
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... I don't consider wearing a mask to be a Constitutional violation (though the CHOICE to wear a mask is).
Genuine question... how is the choice to wear a mask a Constitutional violation? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your wording. Are you suggesting mask mandates are a violation of constitutional rights?
My bad for being sloppy; it's not that the CHOICE is the violation; it's the taking away of the choice that MAY be a violation. Yes, I am suggesting that there is a Constitutional argument - the right to privacy, the same theory that makes abortions legal - against mandates. I'm not saying it's a GOOD argument, just that it is an issue (though the argument is FAR stronger for vaccines than masks).
My take is that everyone has a choice... there are simply consequences to their choices. In this regard, no Gestapo is regulating mask usage.
No one is having their choice to wear a seatbelt taken away, you just get a ticket if you're caught.
As long as the "consequences" are fair and reasonable. I have a problem when the "consequences" are Draconian in nature and don't really allow for a choice. When the "Mob" is in charge of determining those "consequences", the chances of fairness drop exponentially. This gets even worse as time and distance intervene (I'm thinking of those cases where people are today bearing the brunt of "consequences" unilaterally imposed retroactively on events/actions/choices made 10, 20 or even more years ago.)
Generally speaking, I agree with you. You and I have almost always been on the same side here, and in this case I might even go so far as to say that the consequences are harsh enough to preclude it from being an actual "choice." Not being able to send your kid to school, a school you've paid for, crosses a line in my book. At the same time, this is a line that has existed for a century. Certain vaccinations are required to attend schools, public or private, and we've accepted this. In fact, almost all of these mandates have been supported by the courts. I don't see this as the mob dictating actions and eliminating choice. I see it simply matter of public health, which has long been the government's domain.
Seems to me, at least insofar as schools go, some sort of intervention would make sense. Have some calm and nonthreatening Dr Phil type explain it to parents in simple, undisputed terms and statistics. Here's how many people have received the vaccine and here are the numbers of people who've died and/or grown third appendages as a result. Here are the number of people who've contracted Covid, the number who have died, and the number of those who were vaccinated and unvaccinated. Really, the numbers speak for themselves here. If you can't get over it after that, you should probably just homeschool your kid. In truth you're already pretty likely to screw your kid up either way. The world needs ditch-diggers, and for my part, I'll add titty-dancers to that time-honored witticism. I'm sure Ted Knight would approve.
The key here is the term "accepted". Governments do things because the people accept it. Look at China, and look at Nazi Germany. No matter how we in the future see it now as "bad", those people did see it as "good" and therefore "accepted" whatever their rulers/governments demanded of them.
What we have here is the people not wanting to "accept" and this is the consequence of when the people choose not to "accept" and see it as government coercing their balls to the wall. And the government demanding justification for their decision to impose these regulations and mandate orders is the choice they made and they have to face the consequences of the people "accepting" not to trust or abide by the government.
I find it very fascinating...
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So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do? Places now do not allow smoking inside. So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.
Which the consequences of that decision means the people will end up being forced to figure out other ways to continue living their life.
This is a disruption of a lifestyle, and some do not have that plan set for this purpose for, what if you get denied access to the privileged world.
I personally find it pretty damn interesting how those crying privileged while supremacy rhetoric do not see the vaccine passports as an issue of said privilege? Because this is what it is. As George Carlin said, "We do not have rights. We have privileges."
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People always have a choice.
Do they, though?
Yes.
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So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do? Places now do not allow smoking inside. So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.
Which the consequences of that decision means the people will end up being forced to figure out other ways to continue living their life.
This is a disruption of a lifestyle, and some do not have that plan set for this purpose for, what if you get denied access to the privileged world.
I personally find it pretty damn interesting how those crying privileged while supremacy rhetoric do not see the vaccine passports as an issue of said privilege? Because this is what it is. As George Carlin said, "We do not have rights. We have privileges."
You know how to stop the disruption in your life? Get the vaccine.
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The opening of schools here in Florida has been a disaster. It was predictable. Many schools already had to close. Tens of thousands are quarantined. Sick kids brought it home to parents. It's quite a dilemma. I wish I had an answer or a solution but there isn't one.
On top of this, the CEO of Pfizer has said he's concerned that eventually a variant will emerge that is resistant to the vaccine. After almost 2 years of this, with no end in sight, the inner-doom that resides in the recesses of my psyche wonders if this will be a near- extinction event for humanity. Will it eventually wipe out a huge number of humans. Or maybe I'm just having another brutal day at work and my thoughts are polluted by it.
I'm not terribly concerned about a 12 Monkeys or The Stand-level event, but I've said for a few months that there will be a 'US variant'. The virus ain't sittin around whining like Archie Bunker that the vaccine is bad for business. It'll evolve and mutate. It's inevitable. Just how much it does is the question.
Hence why I'm still fairly cautious about everything. I've recently had work colleagues suggest organizing an upcoming planning workshop as 'in-person'. mmmmm, no thank you very much. Vaccination is but one tool in this fight, not a panacea solution. Distancing still matters, a lot. I'm sick and fucking tired of staring at the same three monitors I've been looking at 5 days a week, 10 hours a day for the last 16 months, but I sure as shit will take that over a boardroom only to come home with a wee case of COVID that I pass on to the jingle.family.
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The opening of schools here in Florida has been a disaster. It was predictable. Many schools already had to close. Tens of thousands are quarantined. Sick kids brought it home to parents. It's quite a dilemma. I wish I had an answer or a solution but there isn't one.
On top of this, the CEO of Pfizer has said he's concerned that eventually a variant will emerge that is resistant to the vaccine. After almost 2 years of this, with no end in sight, the inner-doom that resides in the recesses of my psyche wonders if this will be a near- extinction event for humanity. Will it eventually wipe out a huge number of humans. Or maybe I'm just having another brutal day at work and my thoughts are polluted by it.
But recognize, the major risk of a variant isn't because of the relatively minor segment of Americans that haven't been vaccinated. Sure that increases the odds of a variant, but there will NEVER, under ANY circumstances, be 100% vaccination in the U.S. Even if we were, the remainder of the world is 25% (two doses), and something like 35% (one dose). The variant is going to happen one way or the other, and if the variant is vaccine-resistant, it's going to wreck havoc regardless. We have far more risk of a deadly variant from the WORLD condition than we do from the FLORIDA condition.
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I've recently had work colleagues suggest organizing an upcoming planning workshop as 'in-person'. mmmmm, no thank you very much. Vaccination is but one tool in this fight, not a panacea solution. Distancing still matters, a lot. I'm sick and fucking tired of staring at the same three monitors I've been looking at 5 days a week, 10 hours a day for the last 16 months, but I sure as shit will take that over a boardroom only to come home with a wee case of COVID that I pass on to the jingle.family.
I read this and I must say..I don't know what to say. I cannot argue with you for playing it safe. But my wife and I have worked right along, in person with other people. At what point does it cross over from being safe to being full on afraid to leave the house?
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I'm not anywhere close to being as morbid as some of emtee's thoughts, but I can understand (or at least best try to) from the perspective of being so close to a very bad situation right now.
Even after I kind of ripped on Fauci, his latest comments about having "control" over the virus by spring should give some ease that we aren't that far away from potentially being in a much better spot.
Personally, I think in another month or two we will already be in a better spot. I'm just not sure what the next wave will bring, and I'm pretty sure we will see another wave come the winter. It's just a matter of how bad it will be. I'm not terribly hopeful covid will mutate into something less deadly like Spanish flu, but I am more hopeful that we gain enough natural immunity and vaccinations to slow this down to it being more close to the flu in terms of being seasonal and not too disruptive.
I do think Fauci's changing the words from herd immunity to control is just another example of what we kind of already know in that this is going to be an endemic. Covid is never going away.
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Yes, Stads, I understand. I didn't think my post indicated a correlation. My concern is simply that the virus wins the battle against humanity. Like I said though, it's probably just been a lousy day for me, in a series of lousy days and it impacts my mood.
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So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do? Places now do not allow smoking inside. So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.
Ever been to Philly? Seriously; in the City, if you get more than 10% of your revenue from food, there is no smoking in the facility. So you walk outside, and there are invariably 5 people puffing away on the sidewalk in front of the facility. Which is fine, which is to say, there is a choice: I'm sitting at the bar, enjoying a Miller High-Life and if I want to smoke, I put a coaster over the bottle - so I don't get ruffied - and I walk out to the sidewalk and smoke. Maybe one of my friends will come with me, maybe not. Then I go back and finish my beer. That's not an unrealistic requirement.
And bear in mind I'm being somewhat theoretical here. The mechanism matters. If any one business wants to say "vaccine or your fired", fair enough, it's their business they can do that. AS LONG as I can go to OTHER business and be employed. Once the guv'mint gets involved, it reduces/eliminates the choice to "get vaccine" or "starve and lose my house". That's not a choice any more.
On a practical level, though, Bart is correct. There IS a difference between the practical and the theoretical. (FYI, I'm not as wishy-washy as I sound; I'm just trying to not write a novel here.)
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On top of this, the CEO of Pfizer has said he's concerned that eventually a variant will emerge that is resistant to the vaccine. After almost 2 years of this, with no end in sight, the inner-doom that resides in the recesses of my psyche wonders if this will be a near- extinction event for humanity. Will it eventually wipe out a huge number of humans. Or maybe I'm just having another brutal day at work and my thoughts are polluted by it.
I think his concerns are natural. The goalposts keep moving on this. There's a real feeling of "When will this ever end?" It's a mindfuck for sure, and you being knee deep in it daily can no doubt make you crazy. I mean, not crazy but...having those brutal thoughts.
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Yes, Stads, I understand. I didn't think my post indicated a correlation. My concern is simply that the virus wins the battle against humanity. Like I said though, it's probably just been a lousy day for me, in a series of lousy days and it impacts my mood.
No need; I get it, I was really talking to the group not you.
As for you, I feel for you. It's not always as easy as a "science" or "political science" decision/discussion.
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Yes, Stads, I understand. I didn't think my post indicated a correlation. My concern is simply that the virus wins the battle against humanity. Like I said though, it's probably just been a lousy day for me, in a series of lousy days and it impacts my mood.
Yup. Humans can try and control the world and Nature. And everytime, Nature proves us wrong.
On top of this, the CEO of Pfizer has said he's concerned that eventually a variant will emerge that is resistant to the vaccine. After almost 2 years of this, with no end in sight, the inner-doom that resides in the recesses of my psyche wonders if this will be a near- extinction event for humanity. Will it eventually wipe out a huge number of humans. Or maybe I'm just having another brutal day at work and my thoughts are polluted by it.
I think his concerns are natural. The goalposts keep moving on this. There's a real feeling of "When will this ever end?" It's a mindfuck for sure, and you being knee deep in it daily can no doubt make you crazy. I mean, not crazy but...having those brutal thoughts.
And this has caused many, many, humans to have a severe mental crises. Our mentality has been tested hard and some just can not bear and unfortunately, the consequence of this is many committed suicide or have attempted suicide. It's caused a lot of mental despair.
But, also, we have to always remember that this is what being human is. We humans ALL have emotions, and despair is but one of the many that this pandemic realized into people thoughts as people began to fear, death of themselves or another they care about.
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And this has caused many, many, humans to have a severe mental crises. Our mentality has been tested hard and some just can not bear and unfortunately, the consequence of this is many committed suicide or have attempted suicide. It's caused a lot of mental despair.
But, also, we have to always remember that this is what being human is. We humans ALL have emotions, and despair is but one of the many that this pandemic realized into people thoughts as people began to fear, death of themselves or another they care about.
I obviously feel for anyone that lost a loved one, and couldn't grieve properly , whether that meant visiting the sick or have a proper funeral. And also for those who may have lost a job.
This is why I think it's vital to leave the fucking house. Go out to dinner. Live your life. People are acting like going out is like jumping into a billabong with a bunch of crocodiles. We need as much normalcy as possible.
And if you lost a career job, and maybe your industry hasn't opened back up yet for opportunities, there's a million fucking places hiring. Might be part time, might be below "your rate", but what's the alternative?
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So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do? Places now do not allow smoking inside. So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.
Ever been to Philly? Seriously; in the City, if you get more than 10% of your revenue from food, there is no smoking in the facility. So you walk outside, and there are invariably 5 people puffing away on the sidewalk in front of the facility. Which is fine, which is to say, there is a choice: I'm sitting at the bar, enjoying a Miller High-Life and if I want to smoke, I put a coaster over the bottle - so I don't get ruffied - and I walk out to the sidewalk and smoke. Maybe one of my friends will come with me, maybe not. Then I go back and finish my beer. That's not an unrealistic requirement.
And bear in mind I'm being somewhat theoretical here. The mechanism matters. If any one business wants to say "vaccine or your fired", fair enough, it's their business they can do that. AS LONG as I can go to OTHER business and be employed. Once the guv'mint gets involved, it reduces/eliminates the choice to "get vaccine" or "starve and lose my house". That's not a choice any more.
On a practical level, though, Bart is correct. There IS a difference between the practical and the theoretical. (FYI, I'm not as wishy-washy as I sound; I'm just trying to not write a novel here.)
I completely understand but we have moved to this fully in all restaurants these days and we adapt. At some point people will have to decide what they want in their life. The freedom and not going out or the vaccine and eating out. Just like I want a smoke so do I go outside and not smoke and continue to eat/drink.
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I've recently had work colleagues suggest organizing an upcoming planning workshop as 'in-person'. mmmmm, no thank you very much. Vaccination is but one tool in this fight, not a panacea solution. Distancing still matters, a lot. I'm sick and fucking tired of staring at the same three monitors I've been looking at 5 days a week, 10 hours a day for the last 16 months, but I sure as shit will take that over a boardroom only to come home with a wee case of COVID that I pass on to the jingle.family.
I read this and I must say..I don't know what to say. I cannot argue with you for playing it safe. But my wife and I have worked right along, in person with other people. At what point does it cross over from being safe to being full on afraid to leave the house?
I wouldn't say I am (or the jingle.family is) afraid to leave the house. jingle.daughter works as a counsellor in a camp with mostly under-12 year olds. Tonight she's going out for an end-of-season bruuhah with her peers. I went and saw one movie in the theater already, and another one next week. I've (we've) just readjusted some of the priorities as to what's necessary given the state of the pandemic.
I've worked from home since early 2010, so this isn't a complete shock to my system. At this point, spending 5 hours in a room with 2 people that flew in from Vancouver, 2 from Ottawa, and 4 others locally - all of which I don't know what their exposure may have been in the last 10 days, just for the sake of conducting a meeting that is just as easily done virtually... my calculus is that it's not necessary. Ontario is in the midst of another spike, and I'd rather regret not getting together with people just yet, than regret that I did and caught (and spread) the 'rona.
It's a balance afaic
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So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do? Places now do not allow smoking inside. So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.
Ever been to Philly? Seriously; in the City, if you get more than 10% of your revenue from food, there is no smoking in the facility. So you walk outside, and there are invariably 5 people puffing away on the sidewalk in front of the facility. Which is fine, which is to say, there is a choice: I'm sitting at the bar, enjoying a Miller High-Life and if I want to smoke, I put a coaster over the bottle - so I don't get ruffied - and I walk out to the sidewalk and smoke. Maybe one of my friends will come with me, maybe not. Then I go back and finish my beer. That's not an unrealistic requirement.
And bear in mind I'm being somewhat theoretical here. The mechanism matters. If any one business wants to say "vaccine or your fired", fair enough, it's their business they can do that. AS LONG as I can go to OTHER business and be employed. Once the guv'mint gets involved, it reduces/eliminates the choice to "get vaccine" or "starve and lose my house". That's not a choice any more.
On a practical level, though, Bart is correct. There IS a difference between the practical and the theoretical. (FYI, I'm not as wishy-washy as I sound; I'm just trying to not write a novel here.)
I completely understand but we have moved to this fully in all restaurants these days and we adapt. At some point people will have to decide what they want in their life. The freedom and not going out or the vaccine and eating out. Just like I want a smoke so do I go outside and not smoke and continue to eat/drink.
I'm not arguing with you; I understand. I'm just making the point about the level of "choices". Me foregoing a cigarette for an hour, or having to go outside to smoke it and return is not the same level as injecting antibodies into your system for the same. I can't go outside after and "remove the shot". The former is at best an inconvenience (though, no shit, I had friends that would call ahead on vacations to plan out which places would let them smoke!), the latter is something more. There's no compromise position with the vaccine.
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I went and saw one movie in the theater already, and another one next week. I've (we've) just readjusted some of the priorities as to what's necessary given the state of the pandemic.
I actually happy to read this.
At this point, spending 5 hours in a room with 2 people that flew in from Vancouver, 2 from Ottawa, and 4 others locally - all of which I don't know what their exposure may have been in the last 10 days, just for the sake of conducting a meeting that is just as easily done virtually... my calculus is that it's not necessary.
Well in this specific example, I cannot argue with you.
It's a balance afaic
This is true.
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I've recently had work colleagues suggest organizing an upcoming planning workshop as 'in-person'. mmmmm, no thank you very much. Vaccination is but one tool in this fight, not a panacea solution. Distancing still matters, a lot. I'm sick and fucking tired of staring at the same three monitors I've been looking at 5 days a week, 10 hours a day for the last 16 months, but I sure as shit will take that over a boardroom only to come home with a wee case of COVID that I pass on to the jingle.family.
I read this and I must say..I don't know what to say. I cannot argue with you for playing it safe. But my wife and I have worked right along, in person with other people. At what point does it cross over from being safe to being full on afraid to leave the house?
It does raise an interesting quandary. I too have been working in person at two jobs, 60 to 70 hours a week, one of them at a fucking grocery store. And while I still mask in accordance with the local mandates, the moment those mandates were lifted a bit back, the mask came off. How will the 'covid exit strategy' differ be for people working from home as opposed to people who have been working in person the whole time? what will the long term effects of those two different scenarios be on the two focus groups? Psychologists and sociologists are going to have tons to study in the upcoming decades from this whole thing.
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So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do? Places now do not allow smoking inside. So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.
Ever been to Philly? Seriously; in the City, if you get more than 10% of your revenue from food, there is no smoking in the facility. So you walk outside, and there are invariably 5 people puffing away on the sidewalk in front of the facility. Which is fine, which is to say, there is a choice: I'm sitting at the bar, enjoying a Miller High-Life and if I want to smoke, I put a coaster over the bottle - so I don't get ruffied - and I walk out to the sidewalk and smoke. Maybe one of my friends will come with me, maybe not. Then I go back and finish my beer. That's not an unrealistic requirement.
And bear in mind I'm being somewhat theoretical here. The mechanism matters. If any one business wants to say "vaccine or your fired", fair enough, it's their business they can do that. AS LONG as I can go to OTHER business and be employed. Once the guv'mint gets involved, it reduces/eliminates the choice to "get vaccine" or "starve and lose my house". That's not a choice any more.
On a practical level, though, Bart is correct. There IS a difference between the practical and the theoretical. (FYI, I'm not as wishy-washy as I sound; I'm just trying to not write a novel here.)
Not sure why the government matters here. If every business wants to fire the unvaccinated, so be it. Freedom and capitalism, right? If the government wants to require vaccines for its employees, so be it. I'm not sure why that's an issue, either. Yes, in the aggregate it eliminates the choice others are referring to, but I'm not sure that's our concern as a society.
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I've asked this before but now that we're into it a little more: if there were an application that is provided by the State confirming your vaccine status, would you get it to fully participate in society? Now that we have full FDA approval we're going to see more vaccine mandates.
Would you all get the app?
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I've asked this before but now that we're into it a little more: if there were an application that is provided by the State confirming your vaccine status, would you get it to fully participate in society? Now that we have full FDA approval we're going to see more vaccine mandates.
Would you all get the app?
Already got it for California. It's a bit buggy still, so I have access to my Kaiser record through their app as well on me. The CA app is just a QR code that links to my covid vaccine record. I have zero issues with telling anyone and everyone I'm vaxxed, that aspect of my medical record is an open book.
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I've asked this before but now that we're into it a little more: if there were an application that is provided by the State confirming your vaccine status, would you get it to fully participate in society? Now that we have full FDA approval we're going to see more vaccine mandates.
Would you all get the app?
Very likely such an app would be illegal in Texas.
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Yea. NY has one too.
Oddly, the only place to ever ask for proof of vaccine for me was Krispy Kreme. And that was just cause a free donut was involved.
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My employer only gave us a digital vax card. I took it and loaded it up to my Google Drive so I can access it any time on my phone. I'm already ready. If an app comes along, yes, I'd be in.
And, as expected, got the first of what I expect to be many emails from the school district. 6 full days in and positive cases in 2 of the 3 schools already. My sons is not one of them, but I know it's coming.
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I'm not arguing with you; I understand. I'm just making the point about the level of "choices". Me foregoing a cigarette for an hour, or having to go outside to smoke it and return is not the same level as injecting antibodies into your system for the same. I can't go outside after and "remove the shot". The former is at best an inconvenience (though, no shit, I had friends that would call ahead on vacations to plan out which places would let them smoke!), the latter is something more. There's no compromise position with the vaccine.
Well, as you are often quick to point out, there's no constitutional right to beer and wings. No shirt, no shoes, no vax, no service. I'm curious ... how much of a ruckus is raised at the 'no shirt, no service' issue? How do people in the US get away with "no guns allowed on premises" without people losing their shit - hell, guns *are* a constitutional right?
I know .... your response is going to be along the lines of 'getting a vax is different than putting a shit on'. And maybe it is. But it's still a choice someone is making of their own volition.
Some may not think the consequence of no vax no service is 'fair'. *I* (and many others) have no problem with it.
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'getting a vax is different than putting a shit on'.
Going there again? That would be messy. :lol
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'getting a vax is different than putting a shit on'.
Going there again? That would be messy. :lol
let’s leave our various fetishes out of this :rollin
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So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do? Places now do not allow smoking inside. So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.
Ever been to Philly? Seriously; in the City, if you get more than 10% of your revenue from food, there is no smoking in the facility. So you walk outside, and there are invariably 5 people puffing away on the sidewalk in front of the facility. Which is fine, which is to say, there is a choice: I'm sitting at the bar, enjoying a Miller High-Life and if I want to smoke, I put a coaster over the bottle - so I don't get ruffied - and I walk out to the sidewalk and smoke. Maybe one of my friends will come with me, maybe not. Then I go back and finish my beer. That's not an unrealistic requirement.
And bear in mind I'm being somewhat theoretical here. The mechanism matters. If any one business wants to say "vaccine or your fired", fair enough, it's their business they can do that. AS LONG as I can go to OTHER business and be employed. Once the guv'mint gets involved, it reduces/eliminates the choice to "get vaccine" or "starve and lose my house". That's not a choice any more.
On a practical level, though, Bart is correct. There IS a difference between the practical and the theoretical. (FYI, I'm not as wishy-washy as I sound; I'm just trying to not write a novel here.)
I completely understand but we have moved to this fully in all restaurants these days and we adapt. At some point people will have to decide what they want in their life. The freedom and not going out or the vaccine and eating out. Just like I want a smoke so do I go outside and not smoke and continue to eat/drink.
I'm not arguing with you; I understand. I'm just making the point about the level of "choices". Me foregoing a cigarette for an hour, or having to go outside to smoke it and return is not the same level as injecting antibodies into your system for the same. I can't go outside after and "remove the shot". The former is at best an inconvenience (though, no shit, I had friends that would call ahead on vacations to plan out which places would let them smoke!), the latter is something more. There's no compromise position with the vaccine.
That's a great way to explain it.
People that take things against their will may end up with thoughts of regret, of remorse, and even spite. These emotions can have an affect on a persons mental health as they face these thoughts of regret, remorse, and spite.
I guarantee there are people out there that do have a feeling of spite, some regret, and even remorse. There are also some, that do not feel happy about taking it, but only did it because it was required of them.
It's a really big "psychological mind manipulation" (In quotes as it's the best way I could describe what I mean at this time), which is interesting as the pandemic sort of forced this "psychological mind manipulation" by forcing all us humans to rethink how we connect with one another, and to assess what we value in life. I am actually very interested if there are studies and actual research being done about the mental effects the pandemic has had on our current modern day society of the world. Especially in the ways I mentioned of the many emotions people are feeling after taking the vaccines.
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Then they haven't done their homework or don't want to for reasons that baffle me. The only ones who shouldn't take it is when your doctor tells you not to.
It's simple, you choose not taking the vaccine knowing you are going to be restricted in where you can go. You made that decision, don't complain about it now.
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:lol :lol :lol
(https://i.postimg.cc/fWgJPGMK/20210825-210729.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/14wmnYnn)
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I see Krispy Kreme is offering 2 free donuts to anyone who comes in and shows their vaccination card.
"Come celebrate trying to stay healthy by eating one of the worst things you can ever put in your body!!"
:lol :lol
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:lol
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I see Krispy Kreme is offering 2 free donuts to anyone who comes in and shows their vaccination card.
"Come celebrate trying to stay healthy by eating one of the worst things you can ever put in your body!!"
:lol :lol
Welp. That post alone gives me pause for thought thinking if I want to go to Krispy Kreme and take advantage of that.
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You wouldn't know it by looking at me (5'10", 180 lbs now), but I have eaten more than my fair share of donuts over the years, but Krispy Kreme is not the place I'd go to for one these days.
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You wouldn't know it by looking at me (5'10", 180 lbs now),
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/aJblTtiVXf8ekZW75z/200.gif)
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Tim's is 36-24-36.
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(https://media3.giphy.com/media/KWRjfFe4x7nwyh9GlX/200w.gif?cid=82a1493bo5jcts0qzmbrhe5nfq0fk41p90oqauxic9vk0red&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
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Exactly you hot bitch. Love youuuuuuu!!!
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Regarding the app... I have a driver's license to drive, and a passport to fly. I don't need an app to do either. I have a vaccination card, that should be enough.
And I hate to bring this up, because it comes up ALL THE TIME, but I think there are some equity issues here. My parents aren't luddites, and they aren't poor. But they do not want or need a smartphone and a data plan.
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Regarding the app... I have a driver's license to drive, and a passport to fly. I don't need an app to do either. I have a vaccination card, that should be enough.
And I hate to bring this up, because it comes up ALL THE TIME, but I think there are some equity issues here. My parents aren't luddites, and they aren't poor. But they do not want or need a smartphone and a data plan.
The apps are merely a supplement to the card. I know in most places either are acceptable. The issue is that people are now needing to treat their vaccination card with care, and just sticking it in your wallet is kind of the opposite of that. I've got a picture of mine on my phone, and I can take the real one someplace if I know I'll need it.
And I took advantage of the Krispy Kreme offer back when it was only one doughnut and thought it sucked. It, and the store that made it, both smelled like paint. Besides which, I'd much rather support the elderly Asian people that wake up at 0400 every morning for the last 60 years to make us our donuts. Those people deserve it.
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Regarding the app... I have a driver's license to drive, and a passport to fly. I don't need an app to do either. I have a vaccination card, that should be enough.
And I hate to bring this up, because it comes up ALL THE TIME, but I think there are some equity issues here. My parents aren't luddites, and they aren't poor. But they do not want or need a smartphone and a data plan.
The apps are merely a supplement to the card. I know in most places either are acceptable. The issue is that people are now needing to treat their vaccination card with care, and just sticking it in your wallet is kind of the opposite of that. I've got a picture of mine on my phone, and I can take the real one someplace if I know I'll need it.
I heard either Office Depot, Staples, or Office Max, or some combination of the three were laminating them for free.
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Regarding the app... I have a driver's license to drive, and a passport to fly. I don't need an app to do either. I have a vaccination card, that should be enough.
And I hate to bring this up, because it comes up ALL THE TIME, but I think there are some equity issues here. My parents aren't luddites, and they aren't poor. But they do not want or need a smartphone and a data plan.
The apps are merely a supplement to the card. I know in most places either are acceptable. The issue is that people are now needing to treat their vaccination card with care, and just sticking it in your wallet is kind of the opposite of that. I've got a picture of mine on my phone, and I can take the real one someplace if I know I'll need it.
I heard either Office Depot, Staples, or Office Max, or some combination of the three were laminating them for free.
Government agencies used thermal printing labels to mark the injection details. The laminater will turn those black. You can only laminate it if all of the important bits are hand written.
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Everything on mine is hand-written.
And I wasn't thinking people were talking about the app as a supplement, but as a requirement. Apologies if I was reading incorrectly.
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Mora, you live in Norway, right? I know folks are getting their second shots earlier than first planned in a lot of cities around the country. You could try calling or e-mailng your vaccination centre and ask if they can re-schedule your appointment. The worst that can happen is you get a 'sorry, no can do'. :)
During the pandemic, usually when there was a common sense thing that experts were suggesting, it would take at least a month for it to trickle down into policy. I read your post and I thought, well, it really does make sense that they should offer shots early with so many people delaying their first shots for vacation, especially if they offer Moderna as a second shot. And about a week later I get a text and tomorrow's supposed to be my new shot! Quite nice to experience in-world action along the lines with what experts are saying in the news as it's happening.
Of course I might delay it for next week because I got a freaking cold again :loser:
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Illinois is expected to be getting a state-wide mask mandate again today. It's sad that people are so wrapped up into the politics of this stupid virus that they can't figure out how to stay healthy.
Now we all get the task of wearing a mask inside stores and businesses again, just two months after the last mandate was lifted. :facepalm:
The good thing is that he's also mandating vaccines for teachers. At least that will force those unvaccinated teachers to get it and help keep the kids safer. My sister in law teaches, had COVID several months ago, and wasn't going to get vaccinated. I'm sorry, but you work with kids 12 and under....do your damn duty and have some respect for these kids that are under your care throughout the day.
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I overheard a conversation about blood storage at the gun range last night between three people. I was in the process of putting on my ear protection and didn't listen for long, but from what it sounded like, one of the guys found an underground (secret/hidden) business that's storing a blood supply that hasn't been tainted by the vaccine. Something like that had never occurred to me. Are there people out there with tons of freezers creating blood reserves for people that are off the books?
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I overheard a conversation about blood storage at the gun range last night between three people. I was in the process of putting on my ear protection and didn't listen for long, but from what it sounded like, one of the guys found an underground (secret/hidden) business that's storing a blood supply that hasn't been tainted by the vaccine. Something like that had never occurred to me. Are there people out there with tons of freezers creating blood reserves for people that are off the books?
I can't find anything about this through google, but if it's happening, we should probably be encouraging it. If these numbskulls want to undergo under-the-radar blood transfusions, more power to them. Most likely quicker and cheaper than waiting for the virus to kill them.
Also, blood doesn't keep forever. This isn't Campbell's cream of mushroom soup we're talking about.
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So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do? Places now do not allow smoking inside. So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.
Ever been to Philly? Seriously; in the City, if you get more than 10% of your revenue from food, there is no smoking in the facility. So you walk outside, and there are invariably 5 people puffing away on the sidewalk in front of the facility. Which is fine, which is to say, there is a choice: I'm sitting at the bar, enjoying a Miller High-Life and if I want to smoke, I put a coaster over the bottle - so I don't get ruffied - and I walk out to the sidewalk and smoke. Maybe one of my friends will come with me, maybe not. Then I go back and finish my beer. That's not an unrealistic requirement.
And bear in mind I'm being somewhat theoretical here. The mechanism matters. If any one business wants to say "vaccine or your fired", fair enough, it's their business they can do that. AS LONG as I can go to OTHER business and be employed. Once the guv'mint gets involved, it reduces/eliminates the choice to "get vaccine" or "starve and lose my house". That's not a choice any more.
On a practical level, though, Bart is correct. There IS a difference between the practical and the theoretical. (FYI, I'm not as wishy-washy as I sound; I'm just trying to not write a novel here.)
Not sure why the government matters here. If every business wants to fire the unvaccinated, so be it. Freedom and capitalism, right? If the government wants to require vaccines for its employees, so be it. I'm not sure why that's an issue, either. Yes, in the aggregate it eliminates the choice others are referring to, but I'm not sure that's our concern as a society.
It matters because it's a continuum. If it's one company, only, it's the policy of that company. If it's all companies, because 32 million CEOs (that's a ballpark number of corporations, partnerships and sole proprietorships (https://taxfoundation.org/us-has-more-individually-owned-businesses-corporations/)) came to the same conclusion that it's the right thing to do, then it's the nature of ... I don't know, not "common sense", but conventional wisdom, maybe? I don't know where the transition between those is; that's up for discussion. When it becomes government, then it's some amalgam of the two. There will be CEOs that agree, and there will be CEOs that will do it against their will (and undoubtedly some that won't and make a spectacle of it). But with the political nature of that - California (on the right side of history) laying down the Draconian law, and Florida (those deplorable deplorables) not - there's no rhyme or reason to it.
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I overheard a conversation about blood storage at the gun range last night between three people. I was in the process of putting on my ear protection and didn't listen for long, but from what it sounded like, one of the guys found an underground (secret/hidden) business that's storing a blood supply that hasn't been tainted by the vaccine. Something like that had never occurred to me. Are there people out there with tons of freezers creating blood reserves for people that are off the books?
I can't find anything about this through google, but if it's happening, we should probably be encouraging it. If these numbskulls want to undergo under-the-radar blood transfusions, more power to them. Most likely quicker and cheaper than waiting for the virus to kill them.
Also, blood doesn't keep forever. This isn't Campbell's cream of mushroom soup we're talking about.
:lol I have no idea what any of this is about, but certainly doesn't sound safe. And what's the point exactly? It boggles my mind the hoops people will jump through to dodge anything to do with the vaccine.
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So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do? Places now do not allow smoking inside. So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.
Ever been to Philly? Seriously; in the City, if you get more than 10% of your revenue from food, there is no smoking in the facility. So you walk outside, and there are invariably 5 people puffing away on the sidewalk in front of the facility. Which is fine, which is to say, there is a choice: I'm sitting at the bar, enjoying a Miller High-Life and if I want to smoke, I put a coaster over the bottle - so I don't get ruffied - and I walk out to the sidewalk and smoke. Maybe one of my friends will come with me, maybe not. Then I go back and finish my beer. That's not an unrealistic requirement.
And bear in mind I'm being somewhat theoretical here. The mechanism matters. If any one business wants to say "vaccine or your fired", fair enough, it's their business they can do that. AS LONG as I can go to OTHER business and be employed. Once the guv'mint gets involved, it reduces/eliminates the choice to "get vaccine" or "starve and lose my house". That's not a choice any more.
On a practical level, though, Bart is correct. There IS a difference between the practical and the theoretical. (FYI, I'm not as wishy-washy as I sound; I'm just trying to not write a novel here.)
Not sure why the government matters here. If every business wants to fire the unvaccinated, so be it. Freedom and capitalism, right? If the government wants to require vaccines for its employees, so be it. I'm not sure why that's an issue, either. Yes, in the aggregate it eliminates the choice others are referring to, but I'm not sure that's our concern as a society.
It matters because it's a continuum. If it's one company, only, it's the policy of that company. If it's all companies, because 32 million CEOs (that's a ballpark number of corporations, partnerships and sole proprietorships (https://taxfoundation.org/us-has-more-individually-owned-businesses-corporations/)) decide it, then it's the nature of ... I don't know, not "common sense", but conventional wisdom, maybe?. I don't know where the transition between those is; that's up for discussion. When it becomes government, then it's some amalgam of the two. There will be CEOs that agree, and there will be CEOs that will do it against their will (and undoubtedly some that won't and make a spectacle of it). But with the political nature of that - California (on the right side of history) laying down the Draconian law, and Florida (those deplorable deplorables) not - there's no rhyme or reason to it.
Wait a minute. I'm confused. If I'm an employer or a CEO of a giant company, it is in my best interest to protect the workers that I've spent time and money training to do their jobs. Not to mention the fact that I'm risk averse - meaning, I don't want Billy Bob to sue me because Karen brought Covid into the workplace and I as the CEO did not take proper precautions to protect him.
Unless OSHA is getting involved - which is possible and has also been a thing to protect workers in the workplace since it's inception - THEN I'll see your point about the big bad government stepping in. As for government workers, they have always been subject to government regulations - which have BTW included vaccines and/or TB testing of healthcare workers for decades. Nothing new there.
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Regarding the app... I have a driver's license to drive, and a passport to fly. I don't need an app to do either. I have a vaccination card, that should be enough.
And I hate to bring this up, because it comes up ALL THE TIME, but I think there are some equity issues here. My parents aren't luddites, and they aren't poor. But they do not want or need a smartphone and a data plan.
The apps are merely a supplement to the card. I know in most places either are acceptable. The issue is that people are now needing to treat their vaccination card with care, and just sticking it in your wallet is kind of the opposite of that. I've got a picture of mine on my phone, and I can take the real one someplace if I know I'll need it.
And I took advantage of the Krispy Kreme offer back when it was only one doughnut and thought it sucked. It, and the store that made it, both smelled like paint. Besides which, I'd much rather support the elderly Asian people that wake up at 0400 every morning for the last 60 years to make us our donuts. Those people deserve it.
Side bar, I moved, and as part of that I have to get my whole new set of "go to" places: pizza, breakfast, donuts, coffee, etc. And while I'm nominally a Dunkin' guy, there's a local place about 5 miles from me that is the BOMB DIDDLY when it comes to donuts. Not Asian, but I imagine the point is the same.
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Illinois is expected to be getting a state-wide mask mandate again today. It's sad that people are so wrapped up into the politics of this stupid virus that they can't figure out how to stay healthy.
Now we all get the task of wearing a mask inside stores and businesses again, just two months after the last mandate was lifted. :facepalm:
The good thing is that he's also mandating vaccines for teachers. At least that will force those unvaccinated teachers to get it and help keep the kids safer. My sister in law teaches, had COVID several months ago, and wasn't going to get vaccinated. I'm sorry, but you work with kids 12 and under....do your damn duty and have some respect for these kids that are under your care throughout the day.
I'm salivating at the conversations we're (collective) going to have from this point forward when something someone doesn't like gets implemented. :D :D :D
Can I say that next time Chris Murphy gets up and sheds crocodile tears draping his arms around the families of another school shooting, advocating for measures that aren't going to do a DAMN THING to help the kids, but will certainly fuck over that devil, the NRA? Or the next time we're spending valuable school time bending over backward accommodating the Altressa Cox-Blackwell's of the world in the name of "diversity"? (I'm saying this to be lighthearted, not snarky.)
(And for the record I do support having teachers vaccinated IF they are in contact with students for whom we've not made available the vaccine either through age or otherwise.)
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Illinois is expected to be getting a state-wide mask mandate again today. It's sad that people are so wrapped up into the politics of this stupid virus that they can't figure out how to stay healthy.
Now we all get the task of wearing a mask inside stores and businesses again, just two months after the last mandate was lifted. :facepalm:
The good thing is that he's also mandating vaccines for teachers. At least that will force those unvaccinated teachers to get it and help keep the kids safer. My sister in law teaches, had COVID several months ago, and wasn't going to get vaccinated. I'm sorry, but you work with kids 12 and under....do your damn duty and have some respect for these kids that are under your care throughout the day.
I'm salivating at the conversations we're (collective) going to have from this point forward when something someone doesn't like gets implemented. :D :D :D
It's kind of like all the conversations happening now with people who previously claimed they were all about capitalism and against government being involved with regulation and now think its just fine that governors (the big bad government) are stepping in and telling businesses what they can and cannot do.
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Illinois is expected to be getting a state-wide mask mandate again today. It's sad that people are so wrapped up into the politics of this stupid virus that they can't figure out how to stay healthy.
Now we all get the task of wearing a mask inside stores and businesses again, just two months after the last mandate was lifted. :facepalm:
The good thing is that he's also mandating vaccines for teachers. At least that will force those unvaccinated teachers to get it and help keep the kids safer. My sister in law teaches, had COVID several months ago, and wasn't going to get vaccinated. I'm sorry, but you work with kids 12 and under....do your damn duty and have some respect for these kids that are under your care throughout the day.
I'm salivating at the conversations we're (collective) going to have from this point forward when something someone doesn't like gets implemented. :D :D :D
It's kind of like all the conversations happening now with people who previously claimed they were all about capitalism and against government being involved with regulation and now think its just fine that governors (the big bad government) are stepping in and telling businesses what they can and cannot do.
It just goes to show that no "side" has any monopoly on hypocrisy or situational ideology. All just fodder for the continued divisiveness.
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Illinois is expected to be getting a state-wide mask mandate again today. It's sad that people are so wrapped up into the politics of this stupid virus that they can't figure out how to stay healthy.
Now we all get the task of wearing a mask inside stores and businesses again, just two months after the last mandate was lifted. :facepalm:
The good thing is that he's also mandating vaccines for teachers. At least that will force those unvaccinated teachers to get it and help keep the kids safer. My sister in law teaches, had COVID several months ago, and wasn't going to get vaccinated. I'm sorry, but you work with kids 12 and under....do your damn duty and have some respect for these kids that are under your care throughout the day.
I'm salivating at the conversations we're (collective) going to have from this point forward when something someone doesn't like gets implemented. :D :D :D
It's kind of like all the conversations happening now with people who previously claimed they were all about capitalism and against government being involved with regulation and now think its just fine that governors (the big bad government) are stepping in and telling businesses what they can and cannot do.
It just goes to show that no "side" has any monopoly on hypocrisy or situational ideology. All just fodder for the continued divisiveness.
Agreed. Except the French. They clearly are the worst side.
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Regarding the app... I have a driver's license to drive, and a passport to fly. I don't need an app to do either. I have a vaccination card, that should be enough.
And I hate to bring this up, because it comes up ALL THE TIME, but I think there are some equity issues here. My parents aren't luddites, and they aren't poor. But they do not want or need a smartphone and a data plan.
It's the Technological Revolution. Not only is it technology like phones, but also technology related to health and other areas of life. What is happening is they are implementing technical advancements on the people. If you do not go along, then tough luck.
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Illinois is expected to be getting a state-wide mask mandate again today. It's sad that people are so wrapped up into the politics of this stupid virus that they can't figure out how to stay healthy.
People do not do this at all. People disregard their health constantly that I think it's odd how much people claim morality when discussing health.
People know that eating better is beneficial for their health. But they don't do it because of humans addictions to certain chemicals in the foods we eat. Same thing with cigarettes and any form of addiction that detriments a person's health.
You also have people hurting their physical health because of a damn challenge where people just have to follow the trend. That's pretty much leading the sheep off the cliff. The Milk Crate challenge...
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So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do? Places now do not allow smoking inside. So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.
Ever been to Philly? Seriously; in the City, if you get more than 10% of your revenue from food, there is no smoking in the facility. So you walk outside, and there are invariably 5 people puffing away on the sidewalk in front of the facility. Which is fine, which is to say, there is a choice: I'm sitting at the bar, enjoying a Miller High-Life and if I want to smoke, I put a coaster over the bottle - so I don't get ruffied - and I walk out to the sidewalk and smoke. Maybe one of my friends will come with me, maybe not. Then I go back and finish my beer. That's not an unrealistic requirement.
And bear in mind I'm being somewhat theoretical here. The mechanism matters. If any one business wants to say "vaccine or your fired", fair enough, it's their business they can do that. AS LONG as I can go to OTHER business and be employed. Once the guv'mint gets involved, it reduces/eliminates the choice to "get vaccine" or "starve and lose my house". That's not a choice any more.
On a practical level, though, Bart is correct. There IS a difference between the practical and the theoretical. (FYI, I'm not as wishy-washy as I sound; I'm just trying to not write a novel here.)
Not sure why the government matters here. If every business wants to fire the unvaccinated, so be it. Freedom and capitalism, right? If the government wants to require vaccines for its employees, so be it. I'm not sure why that's an issue, either. Yes, in the aggregate it eliminates the choice others are referring to, but I'm not sure that's our concern as a society.
It matters because it's a continuum. If it's one company, only, it's the policy of that company. If it's all companies, because 32 million CEOs (that's a ballpark number of corporations, partnerships and sole proprietorships (https://taxfoundation.org/us-has-more-individually-owned-businesses-corporations/)) came to the same conclusion that it's the right thing to do, then it's the nature of ... I don't know, not "common sense", but conventional wisdom, maybe? I don't know where the transition between those is; that's up for discussion. When it becomes government, then it's some amalgam of the two. There will be CEOs that agree, and there will be CEOs that will do it against their will (and undoubtedly some that won't and make a spectacle of it). But with the political nature of that - California (on the right side of history) laying down the Draconian law, and Florida (those deplorable deplorables) not - there's no rhyme or reason to it.
And then you have those businesses that do implement the opposite because they can and not require a vaccine or deny vaccinated people entry. Then you have the shunning from other businesses.
Businesses can and should be able to deny vaccinated people entry the same they can deny unvaccinated people entry.
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People do not do this at all. People disregard their health constantly that I think it's odd how much people claim morality when discussing health.
People know that eating better is beneficial for their health. But they don't do it because of humans addictions to certain chemicals in the foods we eat. Same thing with cigarettes and any form of addiction that detriments a person's health.
You also have people hurting their physical health because of a damn challenge where people just have to follow the trend. That's pretty much leading the sheep off the cliff. The Milk Crate challenge...
Good lord. I'm not a perfect at all, but in the last year and a half, I haven't caught covid. That has nothing to do with my diet, my vices (too much sugar!) or my daily activities. I wore my mask when needed, kept away from large crowds (and if I was in one, wore a mask) and my family sacrificed where needed - cancelling vacations, not going to the zoo, etc.
I'm not claiming higher morality at all. There's a difference at living a healthy lifestyle vs. taking measures to not come down with covid and prolong the pandemic.
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People do not do this at all. People disregard their health constantly that I think it's odd how much people claim morality when discussing health.
People know that eating better is beneficial for their health. But they don't do it because of humans addictions to certain chemicals in the foods we eat. Same thing with cigarettes and any form of addiction that detriments a person's health.
You also have people hurting their physical health because of a damn challenge where people just have to follow the trend. That's pretty much leading the sheep off the cliff. The Milk Crate challenge...
Good lord. I'm not a perfect at all, but in the last year and a half, I haven't caught covid. That has nothing to do with my diet, my vices (too much sugar!) or my daily activities. I wore my mask when needed, kept away from large crowds (and if I was in one, wore a mask) and my family sacrificed where needed - cancelling vacations, not going to the zoo, etc.
I'm not claiming higher morality at all. There's a difference at living a healthy lifestyle vs. taking measures to not come down with covid and prolong the pandemic.
That wasn't meant toward you personally. Sorry if you did take it as personal, it wasn't my intention.
It's a response to what you said about people that can't figure out how to be healthy.
But, living a healthy lifestyle proves to be beneficial in not causing one to get health conditions that do make them more susceptible to Covid.
I am not blaming anyone at all either. I am just wondering how people that do claim to be about morals and righteousness (not you or anyone else here) always feel like placing blame on "the other" rather than reflecting and looking at the mirror and saying, "Maybe, I shouldn't have done those things to get me to this point" that's accepting the consequences for your choices that now make you vulnerable to getting this virus.
Also, we have never mass tested people for a coronavirus until Covid-19 hit the airwaves. I am sure if we were to have tested people for the flu, we'd find out many people were asymptomatic and spreading the flu just as much as we are with Covid-19. Are there any studies or research being done about this, or are there any that was actually done?
See, what happened was this caused our mindsets to shift and we ended up becoming more sanitary. People were nasty before (still are), and would not wash their hands much at all. People and businesses would still go to work even when people were sick causing spread to those vulnerable and could possibly die from catching that cold. Now businesses are saying stay home if sick, therefore people don't need to go to work, as businesses hopefully implemented sick leave pay and a requirement for getting that sick leave. The business's affected peoples mindsets about illness spread because they needed to make money, and if they don't come into work they don't make the money to live. That entire team of mind and mindset has changed and shifted...
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for the one millionth time covid-19 is not just the flu, it is not an apt comparison.
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for the one millionth time covid-19 is not just the flu, it is not an apt comparison.
It's not Ebola either but people are treating it as if it is Ebola and we're all gonna die with blood squirting out of our eyes.
If it was as deadly as it seemed we'd all be gone. See this is where I also feel sometimes I would like to see tests on humans. But I know it's inhumane, and one of moral and ethical boundaries. This is the knowledge that we humans are not ready to grasp and utilize. Scientists are doing these things now and we the dumb, ignorant, not smart to understand and grasp scientific concepts, are too stupid to realize what they are doing with regards to the blueprints of life and everything that makes the world turn.
Just because it's nice, pretty, new and they market it as great, doesn't mean it will be down the road in the long-term. We do have these products now and they're called smartphones, which we buy new every year, they're marketed as new and pretty and is what you need now, but years later it's obsolete and won't be able to handle new apps as it's obsolete.
This is where the boosters come in. And what happens if someone doesn't want to take the booster, are they not allowed entry as they upgrade the vaccine apps to require you to have a booster?
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It's a novel virus, and the people in know are treating it as such, the rest of us are too ignorant of actual science to understand that, so we're just making shit up to make ourselves feel better or whatever.
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Regarding the app... I have a driver's license to drive, and a passport to fly. I don't need an app to do either. I have a vaccination card, that should be enough.
And I hate to bring this up, because it comes up ALL THE TIME, but I think there are some equity issues here. My parents aren't luddites, and they aren't poor. But they do not want or need a smartphone and a data plan.
The apps are merely a supplement to the card. I know in most places either are acceptable. The issue is that people are now needing to treat their vaccination card with care, and just sticking it in your wallet is kind of the opposite of that. I've got a picture of mine on my phone, and I can take the real one someplace if I know I'll need it.
I heard either Office Depot, Staples, or Office Max, or some combination of the three were laminating them for free.
Yep. Went to Staples, last Friday, to get my card copied and laminated and all I had to pay was just for the copy of the card (which was like $0.20 or less or something). The lamination was free.
I overheard a conversation about blood storage at the gun range last night between three people. I was in the process of putting on my ear protection and didn't listen for long, but from what it sounded like, one of the guys found an underground (secret/hidden) business that's storing a blood supply that hasn't been tainted by the vaccine. Something like that had never occurred to me. Are there people out there with tons of freezers creating blood reserves for people that are off the books?
I can't find anything about this through google, but if it's happening, we should probably be encouraging it. If these numbskulls want to undergo under-the-radar blood transfusions, more power to them. Most likely quicker and cheaper than waiting for the virus to kill them.
Also, blood doesn't keep forever. This isn't Campbell's cream of mushroom soup we're talking about.
:lol I have no idea what any of this is about, but certainly doesn't sound safe. And what's the point exactly? It boggles my mind the hoops people will jump through to dodge anything to do with the vaccine.
Apparently, last week, some people had the bright idea thinking that taking horse medication was going to be the better route and the FDA had to make a public statement saying that this is obviously not the way to go? Good gravy, man.
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Apparently, last week, some people had the bright idea thinking that taking horse medication was going to be the better route and the FDA had to make a public statement saying that this is obviously not the way to go? Good gravy, man.
If only we could market jumping in front of trains as a safe and effective alternative to the vaccines. By the gods we'd be so much better off.
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for the one millionth time covid-19 is not just the flu, it is not an apt comparison.
It's not Ebola either but people are treating it as if it is Ebola and we're all gonna die with blood squirting out of our eyes.
it’s not ebola and no one is treating it as such. This was a bad idea, goodbye and carry on.
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People do not do this at all. People disregard their health constantly that I think it's odd how much people claim morality when discussing health.
People know that eating better is beneficial for their health. But they don't do it because of humans addictions to certain chemicals in the foods we eat. Same thing with cigarettes and any form of addiction that detriments a person's health.
You also have people hurting their physical health because of a damn challenge where people just have to follow the trend. That's pretty much leading the sheep off the cliff. The Milk Crate challenge...
Good lord. I'm not a perfect at all, but in the last year and a half, I haven't caught covid. That has nothing to do with my diet, my vices (too much sugar!) or my daily activities. I wore my mask when needed, kept away from large crowds (and if I was in one, wore a mask) and my family sacrificed where needed - cancelling vacations, not going to the zoo, etc.
I'm not claiming higher morality at all. There's a difference at living a healthy lifestyle vs. taking measures to not come down with covid and prolong the pandemic.
Kinda, sorta, you are. There are people who wore masks when needed, kept away from large crowds (and if in one, wore a mask) and made family sacrifices where needed - cancelling vacations, not going to the zoo, etc. and STILL got the virus. Conversely, people who just did not give a shit and never got it. You're just doing what YOU feel is right FOR YOU to cut your odds.
(And I'm not questioning your choices; I did many if not all of them too. But they were my choice.)
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for the one millionth time covid-19 is not just the flu, it is not an apt comparison.
It's not Ebola either but people are treating it as if it is Ebola and we're all gonna die with blood squirting out of our eyes.
it’s not ebola and no one is treating it as such. This was a bad idea, goodbye and carry on.
Lead with snark, receive snark in return. It's not rocket science.
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I overheard a conversation about blood storage at the gun range last night between three people. I was in the process of putting on my ear protection and didn't listen for long, but from what it sounded like, one of the guys found an underground (secret/hidden) business that's storing a blood supply that hasn't been tainted by the vaccine. Something like that had never occurred to me. Are there people out there with tons of freezers creating blood reserves for people that are off the books?
There is a very right leaning gun forum I found that I stalk because they have some of the most extreme coronavirus conspiracies, a while back they were convinced their alpha non vaxx sperm was gonna be worth a fortune
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People do not do this at all. People disregard their health constantly that I think it's odd how much people claim morality when discussing health.
People know that eating better is beneficial for their health. But they don't do it because of humans addictions to certain chemicals in the foods we eat. Same thing with cigarettes and any form of addiction that detriments a person's health.
You also have people hurting their physical health because of a damn challenge where people just have to follow the trend. That's pretty much leading the sheep off the cliff. The Milk Crate challenge...
Good lord. I'm not a perfect at all, but in the last year and a half, I haven't caught covid. That has nothing to do with my diet, my vices (too much sugar!) or my daily activities. I wore my mask when needed, kept away from large crowds (and if I was in one, wore a mask) and my family sacrificed where needed - cancelling vacations, not going to the zoo, etc.
I'm not claiming higher morality at all. There's a difference at living a healthy lifestyle vs. taking measures to not come down with covid and prolong the pandemic.
Kinda, sorta, you are. There are people who wore masks when needed, kept away from large crowds (and if in one, wore a mask) and made family sacrifices where needed - cancelling vacations, not going to the zoo, etc. and STILL got the virus. Conversely, people who just did not give a shit and never got it. You're just doing what YOU feel is right FOR YOU to cut your odds.
(And I'm not questioning your choices; I did many if not all of them too. But they were my choice.)
Well, what exactly ARE you questioning? I don't understand your point here. He's just talking about the difference between a "healthy" lifestyle, and taking the recommended daily actions to avoid contracting/spreading the virus.
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People do not do this at all. People disregard their health constantly that I think it's odd how much people claim morality when discussing health.
People know that eating better is beneficial for their health. But they don't do it because of humans addictions to certain chemicals in the foods we eat. Same thing with cigarettes and any form of addiction that detriments a person's health.
You also have people hurting their physical health because of a damn challenge where people just have to follow the trend. That's pretty much leading the sheep off the cliff. The Milk Crate challenge...
Good lord. I'm not a perfect at all, but in the last year and a half, I haven't caught covid. That has nothing to do with my diet, my vices (too much sugar!) or my daily activities. I wore my mask when needed, kept away from large crowds (and if I was in one, wore a mask) and my family sacrificed where needed - cancelling vacations, not going to the zoo, etc.
I'm not claiming higher morality at all. There's a difference at living a healthy lifestyle vs. taking measures to not come down with covid and prolong the pandemic.
Kinda, sorta, you are. There are people who wore masks when needed, kept away from large crowds (and if in one, wore a mask) and made family sacrifices where needed - cancelling vacations, not going to the zoo, etc. and STILL got the virus. Conversely, people who just did not give a shit and never got it. You're just doing what YOU feel is right FOR YOU to cut your odds.
(And I'm not questioning your choices; I did many if not all of them too. But they were my choice.)
Well, what exactly ARE you questioning? I don't understand your point here. He's just talking about the difference between a "healthy" lifestyle, and taking the recommended daily actions to avoid contracting/spreading the virus.
Well, it's part of a longer dialogue that seems to be expressing the notion that everyone is expected to act perfectly rationally (that is to say, exactly as I would) in a given situation. We've got all these explanations why this - COVID - is different, and yet the human condition is responding to it in the exact same way. Some are taking it to the extreme, some are in the sweet spot and some aren't taking it extreme enough.
I'm having a decent conversation in the Biden Presidency thread (I think it is) on how to right the ship here in America, ending the divisiveness and getting politicians to serve US instead of themselves, and to me there's remarkable overlap. This apparently wide spread, stunning lack of appreciation for how our individual actions impact others seems to be a shock to those wondering why someone else wouldn't wear a mask, but for me, who's been a sort of political outsider (in terms of ideology and priorities) for over a decade now, and constantly wonders why it's SO HARD to put our own personal "wants" aside to do the right thing for the country and the people in it, it's sort of how I feel every damn day.
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Well, it's part of a longer dialogue that seems to be expressing the notion that everyone is expected to act perfectly rationally (that is to say, exactly as I would) in a given situation.
I don't think it is. I think that's what you may WANT it to be, but I don't see it.
Ben was talking about individual health habits, and Grappler responded that he didn't change his health habits to avoid COVID, he just took the recommended steps to do so. That's all.
Sometimes, a banana is just a banana.
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Could be a plantain..
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Well, it's part of a longer dialogue that seems to be expressing the notion that everyone is expected to act perfectly rationally (that is to say, exactly as I would) in a given situation.
I don't think it is. I think that's what you may WANT it to be, but I don't see it.
Ben was talking about individual health habits, and Grappler responded that he didn't change his health habits to avoid COVID, he just took the recommended steps to do so. That's all.
Sometimes, a banana is just a banana.
Fair enough. I still wanted to make the point I made, though, so it worked out for everyone. :) :) ;)
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Could be a plantain..
:lol but let me guess, you dislike both?
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I love bananas. I have banana toast almost daily on my way to work. I don't think I've ever eaten a plantain.
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Nice, I used to HATE bananas with a passion but somehow I overcame that and eat them pretty regularly now. Plantains are great at columbian restaurants.
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I love bananas. I have banana toast almost daily on my way to work. I don't think I've ever eaten a plantain.
This explains so much.
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I love pan frying plantains, then covering them in cheese and jalapenos, and putting that in the toaster oven to make plantain nachos.
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The jalepenos would kill it.
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I love pan frying plantains, then covering them in cheese and jalapenos, and putting that in the toaster oven to make plantain nachos.
Interesting!
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Anything food is interesting to you. :lol
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The jalepenos would kill it.
There it is! :lol
I love pan frying plantains, then covering them in cheese and jalapenos, and putting that in the toaster oven to make plantain nachos.
This sounds delish
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Well, it's part of a longer dialogue that seems to be expressing the notion that everyone is expected to act perfectly rationally (that is to say, exactly as I would) in a given situation.
I don't think it is. I think that's what you may WANT it to be, but I don't see it.
Ben was talking about individual health habits, and Grappler responded that he didn't change his health habits to avoid COVID, he just took the recommended steps to do so. That's all.
Sometimes, a banana is just a banana.
Fair enough. I still wanted to make the point I made, though, so it worked out for everyone. :) :) ;)
:biggrin:
BTW, plantains are awesome.
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Anything food is interesting to you. :lol
Not all silly. You know what I hate to this day that blows everyone's mind?
Steak.
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I love pan frying plantains, then covering them in cheese and jalapenos, and putting that in the toaster oven to make plantain nachos.
Fried is good, but have you ever had a good mashed plantain dish?
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/video-api-prod/assets/ea2e422fa7db408288f540aa83cc193c/beauty1.jpg)
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I'm cool with plantains and respect their possibility of being really good. I've just never had one.
Anything food is interesting to you. :lol
Not all silly. You know what I hate to this day that blows everyone's mind?
Steak.
I'm not a steak guy either. I like a tenderloin though, but am happy to cut it up, and put it in a sandwich covered in Hellman's.
I don't get steak. Yeah, I'm chewing a steak..like a man. It really doesn't do anything for me.
I love pan frying plantains, then covering them in cheese and jalapenos, and putting that in the toaster oven to make plantain nachos.
Fried is good, but have you ever had a good mashed plantain dish?
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/video-api-prod/assets/ea2e422fa7db408288f540aa83cc193c/beauty1.jpg)
Um, gee, no I haven't. :lol
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I'm not a steak guy either. I like a tenderloin though, but am happy to cut it up, and put it in a sandwich covered in Hellman's.
I don't get steak. Yeah, I'm chewing a steak..like a man. It really doesn't do anything for me.
You really should have stopped with
I'm not a steak guy either.
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:lol
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Anything food is interesting to you. :lol
Not all silly. You know what I hate to this day that blows everyone's mind?
Steak.
I'm not a steak guy either. I like a tenderloin though, but am happy to cut it up, and put it in a sandwich covered in Hellman's.
I don't get steak. Yeah, I'm chewing a steak..like a man. It really doesn't do anything for me.
This pains me to read. My soul is crying.
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Tim's ideal meal...a bit spicy, but oh so good...
(https://st2.depositphotos.com/1364913/7108/i/950/depositphotos_71087983-stock-photo-bowl-with-ice-cubes.jpg)
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Yeah, it's got nothing to do with "being a man". I just enjoy the taste and texture. I will sometimes head over to my stepson's house, and we put two steaks on the grill and shoot the breeze waiting for them to cook, then just sit and talk and eat. Personally, I like it with a glass of red wine, some grilled onions, and a mashed tater, but that's me.
Though I understand the feeling: that's me with lobster. Some people go crazy over lobster and frankly, it's lost on me.
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Lobster has potential, but how most people serve it (boiled), it's fairly average. Now crab on the other hand is god tier stuff.
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Anything out of the sea is trash!
*runs for cover*
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Yeah, it's got nothing to do with "being a man". I just enjoy the taste and texture. I will sometimes head over to my stepson's house, and we put two steaks on the grill and shoot the breeze waiting for them to cook, then just sit and talk and eat. Personally, I like it with a glass of red wine, some grilled onions, and a mashed tater, but that's me.
This is us, too. Half of the fun of cooking steak at home is the time before we eat. Lighting the grill, waiting for it to get ready, then the actual cooking time is conversation, a beverage, perhaps a cigar.
Plus, a well-cooked steak is one of my favorite things to eat.
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Anything out of the sea is trash!
Quoting for emphasis.
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Lobster has potential, but how most people serve it (boiled), it's fairly average. Now crab on the other hand is god tier stuff.
Agree, but only when it's hot. For me, once sea food like that gets cold, it loses its luster.
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I love pan frying plantains, then covering them in cheese and jalapenos, and putting that in the toaster oven to make plantain nachos.
Fried is good, but have you ever had a good mashed plantain dish?
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/video-api-prod/assets/ea2e422fa7db408288f540aa83cc193c/beauty1.jpg)
Never have, but that looks fantastic. Are those pickled onions on top? LOVED pickled onions! If it's pickled ginger, on the other hand, that's a hard pass. Ginger is a tricky one for me. If used to flavor a dish, I like it used sparingly. But too much ginger, or having chunks of it in a dish, can easily ruin a dish for me. On the other hand, too much Maryanne is NEVER a problem.
Anyhow, back to the plantains, the only issue I have with them at times is that, on their own, they are bland. They need to be paired with something, or have a good sauce, or be helped with some spices. How do you typically flavor them in a mash? Or do you not, and just have them with other things?
Lobster has potential, but how most people serve it (boiled), it's fairly average. Now crab on the other hand is god tier stuff.
Wow. From the time I was a child, I have ALWAYS vastly preferred crab to lobster. But I can count on one hand the number of times I have ever heard anyone agree with that sentiment, and I would have plenty of fingers left over. Coming from a chef...I suddenly feel like my whole life has been validated.
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Tim's ideal meal...a bit spicy, but oh so good...
(https://st2.depositphotos.com/1364913/7108/i/950/depositphotos_71087983-stock-photo-bowl-with-ice-cubes.jpg)
Oh yeah. It’s especially good when it’s chilled.
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Anything out of the sea is trash!
*runs for cover*
Good lord....I just can't.
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Anything out of the sea is trash!
*runs for cover*
On an evolutionary timescale this includes all mammals.
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Anything out of the sea is trash!
*runs for cover*
On an evolutionary timescale this includes all mammals.
Damn, I hadn't thought of that.
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No, not really.
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Never have, but that looks fantastic. Are those pickled onions on top? LOVED pickled onions! If it's pickled ginger, on the other hand, that's a hard pass. Ginger is a tricky one for me. If used to flavor a dish, I like it used sparingly. But too much ginger, or having chunks of it in a dish, can easily ruin a dish for me. On the other hand, too much Maryanne is NEVER a problem.
Anyhow, back to the plantains, the only issue I have with them at times is that, on their own, they are bland. They need to be paired with something, or have a good sauce, or be helped with some spices. How do you typically flavor them in a mash? Or do you not, and just have them with other things?
you can use pickled onions but I prefer to just cook raw red onions myself, and that is what makes this dish great (IMO). it adds flavor the plantain along with whatever else you have it with ( fried cheese, eggs and Salami in this case). When I make it myself, I add some onions before mashing so that it blends in together. Sometimes I add shredded cheeses as well before mashing if I'm feeling adventurous.
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There's a cuban place near where I work that I love to get lunch at, they have a dish called Mofongo which is a fried plantain base with some meat/veggies on top. It's really good. Their cuban sandwiches also come with plantain chips that are bangin.
(https://secureservercdn.net/166.62.104.68/wba.f62.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/MOFONGO-TRIO.jpg)
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Mofongo is one of my favorite dishes ever.
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(https://i.imgur.com/93puVb3.png)
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:rollin :rollin
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:lol but the mofongos!!
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Eh, at this point, most people's odds from getting severely sick from bad mofongo are probably higher than getting severely sick from Covid, so... :dunno:
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Anything out of the sea is trash!
*runs for cover*
On an evolutionary timescale this includes all mammals.
Damn, I hadn't thought of that.
That sucks for your girlfriend
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:lol but the mofongos!!
I got my mofongo vax.
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Eh, at this point, most people's odds from getting severely sick from bad mofongo are probably higher than getting severely sick from Covid, so... :dunno:
Seriously? Over 2600 deaths in the States the past two days, one of our friend's teen is in ICU, and now my brother has it (fortunately he is double vaxxed).
Poor taste.
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Complacency is exactly what Delta variant needs. Here in Ontario, our cases, hospitalizations and ICU counts are between 4x and 8x what they were this very time last year - and that's with 65% of the TOTAL population in Ontario doubled vaccinated; 80%+ at least single-vax'd. So yeah, let's not have anyone thing vaccinations are the cure to this pandemic.
I'm so not looking forward to the school return in 2 weeks. Universities here are already giving hints that they're preparing to move back to online delivery if (when) needed.
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Eh, at this point, most people's odds from getting severely sick from bad mofongo are probably higher than getting severely sick from Covid, so... :dunno:
Seriously? Over 2600 deaths in the States the past two days, one of our friend's teen is in ICU, and now my brother has it (fortunately he is double vaxxed).
Poor taste.
I'm sorry for your specific situation with your brother and your friend's teen. And if you think I was making light of anyone's specific plight, I apologize if I came across that way. Not my intention. But it is hardly "poor taste" to point out factually, as many, many others have done, that for those who are taking proper precautions, their odds of getting seriously ill are likely less than those of getting food poisoning. Respectfully, I think you are taking offense too easily. My dad died of cancer, but I think it would be misplaced for me to take offense at someone saying, in context of a food discussion, something along the lines of, "I'm more likely to get sick from eating that than I am to get stomach cancer."
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one of our friend's teen is in ICU, and now my brother has it (fortunately he is double vaxxed).
Jesus Joe. I feel like I live in a bubble every time you post something like this. And you've posted a lot of this kind of thing. :(
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Holy hell, this is so wrong. As someone who spent an entire Spring/Summer/Early Fall dealing with an undiagnosed gallstone issue, this hits home. They didn't catch mine until my kidneys starting shutting down. My bile duct was blocked and was wrecking my organs. Until that time, I was eventually passing the stones but one finally got so jammed it couldn't clear out.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-vet-denied-icu-bed-165528672.html
Just unbelievable in this day and age, I don't care what is going on. Treat the freaking patient. Get the win. This man did not have to die.
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Holy hell, this is so wrong. As someone who spent an entire Spring/Summer/Early Fall dealing with an undiagnosed gallstone issue, this hits home. They didn't catch mine until my kidneys starting shutting down. My bile duct was blocked and was wrecking my organs. Until that time, I was eventually passing the stones but one finally got so jammed it couldn't clear out.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-vet-denied-icu-bed-165528672.html
Just unbelievable in this day and age, I don't care what is going on. Treat the freaking patient. Get the win. This man did not have to die.
There is a solution to this. Hospital administrators need to institute a cap on the number of unvaccinated patients they'll accept based on a percentage of their total ICU capacity. Once you accept them you can't turn them away, so you have to turn them away at the door. They need to reserve space for the people who don't volunteer to get a preventable disease.
Did your kidney function return?
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Holy hell, this is so wrong. As someone who spent an entire Spring/Summer/Early Fall dealing with an undiagnosed gallstone issue, this hits home. They didn't catch mine until my kidneys starting shutting down. My bile duct was blocked and was wrecking my organs. Until that time, I was eventually passing the stones but one finally got so jammed it couldn't clear out.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-vet-denied-icu-bed-165528672.html
Just unbelievable in this day and age, I don't care what is going on. Treat the freaking patient. Get the win. This man did not have to die.
There is a solution to this. Hospital administrators need to institute a cap on the number of unvaccinated patients they'll accept based on a percentage of their total ICU capacity. Once you accept them you can't turn them away, so you have to turn them away at the door. They need to reserve space for the people who don't volunteer to get a preventable disease.
Did your kidney function return?
It did. I remember the idiot in the ER saying it's probably just a kidney stone. Then he had me pee in a cup and he was like, 'whoa, that's not right'. My urine was very, very dark. They ran a kidney test and they were barely functioning. The next day I was in surgery and had a my gallbladder removed. It was completely overloaded with stones.
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Holy hell, this is so wrong. As someone who spent an entire Spring/Summer/Early Fall dealing with an undiagnosed gallstone issue, this hits home. They didn't catch mine until my kidneys starting shutting down. My bile duct was blocked and was wrecking my organs. Until that time, I was eventually passing the stones but one finally got so jammed it couldn't clear out.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-vet-denied-icu-bed-165528672.html
Just unbelievable in this day and age, I don't care what is going on. Treat the freaking patient. Get the win. This man did not have to die.
There is a solution to this. Hospital administrators need to institute a cap on the number of unvaccinated patients they'll accept based on a percentage of their total ICU capacity. Once you accept them you can't turn them away, so you have to turn them away at the door. They need to reserve space for the people who don't volunteer to get a preventable disease.
Did your kidney function return?
It did. I remember the idiot in the ER saying it's probably just a kidney stone. Then he had me pee in a cup and he was like, 'whoa, that's not right'. My urine was very, very dark. They ran a kidney test and they were barely functioning. The next day I was in surgery and had a my gallbladder removed. It was completely overloaded with stones.
Glad to hear it. Obviously kidneys are a point of interest for me. I'm surprised that they didn't do labs as soon as they took you in. Serum creatinine is about as basic as it gets, so they should have had a pretty good idea of your kidney function right off the bat.
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Complacency is exactly what Delta variant needs. Here in Ontario, our cases, hospitalizations and ICU counts are between 4x and 8x what they were this very time last year - and that's with 65% of the TOTAL population in Ontario doubled vaccinated; 80%+ at least single-vax'd. So yeah, let's not have anyone thing vaccinations are the cure to this pandemic.
Denmark no longer considers Covid a dangerous disease and will be removing all restrictions in two weeks, so it will be interesting to see where this goes. It's not putting significant strain on society there right now despite case numbers being generally high around Europe.
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Eh, at this point, most people's odds from getting severely sick from bad mofongo are probably higher than getting severely sick from Covid, so... :dunno:
Seriously? Over 2600 deaths in the States the past two days, one of our friend's teen is in ICU, and now my brother has it (fortunately he is double vaxxed).
Poor taste.
I brought up the mofongos (and genrerally the change in topic) in a typical change of discussion that happens on DTF which often turns to food. I really doubt anyone meant offense to the reality of covid. Im sorry for your situation, there's no doubt covid has been terrible and continues to be
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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/28/us/florida-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccines-variant.html
The Florida story is a cautionary tale for dealing with the current incarnation of the coronavirus. The United States has used the vaccines as its primary pandemic weapon. But Florida shows that even a state that made a major push for vaccinations — Florida ranks 21st among states and Washington, D.C., in giving people of all ages at least one shot — can be crushed by the Delta variant, reaching frightening levels of hospitalizations and deaths.
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https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-no-infection-parties
The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.
The researchers also found that people who had SARS-CoV-2 previously and received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine were more highly protected against reinfection than those who once had the virus and were still unvaccinated. The new work could inform discussion of whether previously infected people need to receive both doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine or the similar mRNA vaccine from Moderna. Vaccine mandates don’t necessarily exempt those who had a SARS-CoV-2 infection already and the current U.S. recommendation is that they be fully vaccinated, which means two mRNA doses or one of the J&J adenovirus-based vaccine. Yet one mRNA dose might be enough, some scientists argue. And other countries including Germany, France, Italy, and Israel administer just one vaccine dose to previously infected people.
The study, conducted in one of the most highly COVID-19–vaccinated countries in the world, examined medical records of tens of thousands of Israelis, charting their infections, symptoms, and hospitalizations between 1 June and 14 August, when the Delta variant predominated in Israel. It’s the largest real-world observational study so far to compare natural and vaccine-induced immunity to SARS-CoV-2, according to its leaders.
The research impresses Nussenzweig and other scientists who have reviewed a preprint of the results, posted yesterday on medRxiv. “It’s a textbook example of how natural immunity is really better than vaccination,” says Charlotte Thålin, a physician and immunology researcher at Danderyd Hospital and the Karolinska Institute who studies the immune responses to SARS-CoV-2. “To my knowledge, it’s the first time [this] has really been shown in the context of COVID-19.”
The new analysis relies on the database of Maccabi Healthcare Services, which enrolls about 2.5 million Israelis. The study, led by Tal Patalon and Sivan Gazit at KSM, the system’s research and innovation arm, found in two analyses that never-infected people who were vaccinated in January and February were, in June, July, and the first half of August, six to 13 times more likely to get infected than unvaccinated people who were previously infected with the coronavirus. In one analysis, comparing more than 32,000 people in the health system, the risk of developing symptomatic COVID-19 was 27 times higher among the vaccinated, and the risk of hospitalization eight times higher.
“The differences are huge,” says Thålin, although she cautions that the numbers for infections and other events analyzed for the comparisons were “small.” For instance, the higher hospitalization rate in the 32,000-person analysis was based on just eight hospitalizations in a vaccinated group and one in a previously infected group. And the 13-fold increased risk of infection in the same analysis was based on just 238 infections in the vaccinated population, less than 1.5% of the more than 16,000 people, versus 19 reinfections among a similar number of people who once had SARS-CoV-2.
No one in the study who got a new SARS-CoV-2 infection died—which prevented a comparison of death rates but is a clear sign that vaccines still offer a formidable shield against serious disease, even if not as good as natural immunity. Moreover, natural immunity is far from perfect. Although reinfections with SARS-CoV-2 are rare, and often asymptomatic or mild, they can be severe.
In another analysis, the researchers compared more than 14,000 people who had a confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection and were still unvaccinated with an equivalent number of previously infected people who received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. The team found that the unvaccinated group was twice as likely to be reinfected as the singly vaccinated.
“We continue to underestimate the importance of natural infection immunity … especially when [infection] is recent,” says Eric Topol, a physician-scientist at Scripps Research. “And when you bolster that with one dose of vaccine, you take it to levels you can’t possibly match with any vaccine in the world right now.”
Nussenzweig says the results in previously infected, vaccinated people confirm laboratory findings from a series of papers in Nature and Immunity by his group, his Rockefeller University colleague Paul Bieniasz and others—and from a preprint posted this month by Bieniasz and his team. They show, Nussenzweig says, that the immune systems of people who develop natural immunity to SARS-CoV-2 and then get vaccinated produce exceptionally broad and potent antibodies against the coronavirus. The preprint, for example, reported that people who were previously infected and then vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine had antibodies in their blood that neutralized the infectivity of another virus, harmless to humans, that was engineered to express a version of the coronavirus spike protein that contains 20 concerning mutations. Sera from vaccinated and naturally infected people could not do so.
Nussenzweig’s group has published data showing people who recover from a SARS-CoV-2 infection continue to develop increasing numbers and types of coronavirus-targeting antibodies for up to 1 year. By contrast, he says, twice-vaccinated people stop seeing increases “in the potency or breadth of the overall memory antibody compartment” a few months after their second dose.
For many infectious diseases, naturally acquired immunity is known to be more powerful than vaccine-induced immunity and it often lasts a lifetime. Other coronaviruses that cause the serious human diseases severe acute respiratory syndrome and Middle East respiratory syndrome trigger robust and persistent immune responses. At the same time, several other human coronaviruses, which usually cause little more than colds, are known to reinfect people regularly.
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Just got a message from a friend, she got the rona first back in the Milan wave in Feb 2020, got double vaxxed, and just got a breakthrough case. She's fairly young (40s), and in excellent health, and had a relatively mild case the first time around, so I'm not worried about her, but it still is quite spooky how virile this thing is. We're gonna be fighting it in perpituity.
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This Delta variant is some nasty shit. I haven't seen the stats but it seems like the majority of the breakthrough cases has been the Delta variant. My next door neighbor died from COVID pneumonia last Thursday. She was in the hospital for a week and refused to be intubated. No clue on vax status.
And our state district representative's husband died a couple weeks ago from COVID, they were unvaccinated.
Those who refuse to get vaccinated are playing with COVID fire.
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This Delta variant is some nasty shit. I haven't seen the stats but it seems like the majority of the breakthrough cases has been the Delta variant. My next door neighbor died from COVID pneumonia last Thursday. She was in the hospital for a week and refused to be intubated. No clue on vax status.
And our state district representative's husband died a couple weeks ago from COVID, they were unvaccinated.
Those who refuse to get vaccinated are playing with COVID fire.
And that is their choice to make. And if you are worried then you should make the choice to get vaccinated.
The consequences are you either die or you don't.
I have said this before too, people make questionable decisions all the time yet no one bothers to care about those choices that people make that end up killing themselves. So if we're concerned about others health and safety, people should consider that when deciding to do questionable actions. Which is all done by risk assessment. And people have different assessments of risks they are willing to take.
Those who do take the vaccine are still risking getting a side effect, as with all other drugs and medicines, but that is why you see you're doctor and talk to them to see if this is right for you.
How many people who did take the vaccine actually did go out and talk to their doctor before injecting their body with a new technological medical substance? If people did, there likely wouldn't have been as many adverse effects being reported as people would have known not to take it or else they'd develop those seizures or any of the other side effects people did get when taking the shot.
And how do we know people do have adverse effects if those effects are not severe enough for the person to be concerned about, and therefore never bothered to call their doctor or follow-up on the after effects. Which is what people were told to do if they felt any way from this vaccine so we know the effects of this vaccine. Their data depends on us to report it to the doctors. Doctors rely on us to tell them what is wrong with our body, if we don't they can misdiagnose and mistreat you with a medicine you should not have taken because you did not tell them about that other pain or injury you ignored and assumed isn't that bad because you can tolerate it, and now that medicine is having a worse effect on that pain and is enhancing that other health problem to where you are now in the hospital.
As I also have said. We can't control people. It's been done many time before and many things have happened as a consequence for trying to control the people against their will, wants, and desires.
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This Delta variant is some nasty shit. I haven't seen the stats but it seems like the majority of the breakthrough cases has been the Delta variant. My next door neighbor died from COVID pneumonia last Thursday. She was in the hospital for a week and refused to be intubated. No clue on vax status.
And our state district representative's husband died a couple weeks ago from COVID, they were unvaccinated.
Those who refuse to get vaccinated are playing with COVID fire.
And that is their choice to make. And if you are worried then you should make the choice to get vaccinated.
The consequences are you either die or you don't.
I have said this before too, people make questionable decisions all the time yet no one bothers to care about those choices that people make that end up killing themselves. So if we're concerned about others health and safety, people should consider that when deciding to do questionable actions. Which is all done by risk assessment. And people have different assessments of risks they are willing to take.
Those who do take the vaccine are still risking getting a side effect, as with all other drugs and medicines, but that is why you see you're doctor and talk to them to see if this is right for you.
How many people who did take the vaccine actually did go out and talk to their doctor before injecting their body with a new technological medical substance? If people did, there likely wouldn't have been as many adverse effects being reported as people would have known not to take it or else they'd develop those seizures or any of the other side effects people did get when taking the shot.
And how do we know people do have adverse effects if those effects are not severe enough for the person to be concerned about, and therefore never bothered to call their doctor or follow-up on the after effects. Which is what people were told to do if they felt any way from this vaccine so we know the effects of this vaccine. Their data depends on us to report it to the doctors. Doctors rely on us to tell them what is wrong with our body, if we don't they can misdiagnose and mistreat you with a medicine you should not have taken because you did not tell them about that other pain or injury you ignored and assumed isn't that bad because you can tolerate it, and now that medicine is having a worse effect on that pain and is enhancing that other health problem to where you are now in the hospital.
As I also have said. We can't control people. It's been done many time before and many things have happened as a consequence for trying to control the people against their will, wants, and desires.
In the words of Captain Barbossa - Yes, we know that. :yarr
You sure know how to beat a dead horse. ;)
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Just like others beat the dead horse of how getting vaxxed is more a social responsibility than a personal choice, to protect the unvaccinated, but we've clearly seen that the freedom people just don't care.
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We live in a world where some put themselves over others. Selflessness is a dying word. Literally.
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We live in a world where some put themselves over others. Selflessness is a dying word. Literally.
What happens when people put others over themselves?
Or when you do put other people over yourself and that other person goes and does something that hurts themselves or kills themselves. Which leaves you caring for them now moot as they themselves caused their own death.
Even though you tried and cared for them. If they don't care about themselves, that caring doesn't matter at all. Because they are too busy doing what they want to not consider your supposed feelings and emotions you have for them. Which is why many people do not do unwise things or make dumb risk assessments and choose not to do something as risky.
I mean, I know someone who did get vaccinated but chose to go to where Covid is supposedly rampant...Florida. now he came back and tested positive for it. Many others have tested positive but we're not bad to go to the hospital. Some even got it before taking the vaccine and they were fine, only mild symptoms of Covid-19.
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The act of selflessness Ben is to do something for the betterment of others. Taking the vaccine even if you are unsure of is is the selfless act.
Not taking it is your way of saying I'm putting myself over others. No ifs, ands, or buts.
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The act of selflessness Ben is to do something for the betterment of others. Taking the vaccine even if you are unsure of is is the selfless act.
Not taking it is your way of saying I'm putting myself over others. No ifs, ands, or buts.
But then that person I am supposedly being selfish towards could very well be so selfless themselves where they do something else entirely out of my control to harm themselves. Making what I did for them, pretty much not worth it. So what they are doing is spitting in my face.
If we want to talk about morals and being ethical. Why arent they banning all the unhealthy shit we do everyday that does kill us, but I'll be it slower.
So it's okay if we kill each other slowly, but no okay if it's quick?
I can name many ways we humans can act in selflessness that we do not currently demand people to change their ways, for the betterment of the entire world.
Selflessness hasn't been acted upon much at all really, when you really look into the history of humans.
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Harm themselves? We truly live in a world that believes anything they read online.
You know who's doing more damage to me than the virus? I am. I'm not taking care of myself. That's more dangerous than taking a vaccine.
It those who are healthy don't need to take the vaccine, they do for others in their family who are in danger.
So I just went to my 1st concert in 18 months, I couldn't do so if I wasn't vaccinated. At least now, if I did get it, I will not be hospitalized.
Unlike the high % overtaking the hospitals because they were selfish.
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Harm themselves? We truly live in a world that believes anything they read online.
You know who's doing more damage to me than the virus? I am. I'm not taking care of myself. That's more dangerous than taking a vaccine.
It those who are healthy don't need to take the vaccine, they do for others in their family who are in danger.
So I just went to my 1st concert in 18 months, I couldn't do so if I wasn't vaccinated. At least now, if I did get it, I will not be hospitalized.
Unlike the high % overtaking the hospitals because they were selfish.
Precisely. We do our own damage to our bodies not anyone else. If you happened to do things from your past that you are now susceptible to Covid-19, who is at fault. No one but yourself.
I would ask that person how they feel about me taking the vaccine for them. Some wouldn't care if I did or not because it's my body to choose what I do with it.
Not every person who is in danger is so worried about dying or catching the disease.
You know there are people out there who would gladly want Covid because they want to die. But they're not stupid enough to go out licking things and standing in front of a positive person to give it to them. For them, if they catch it then they catch it, if they die, then they die.
Peoples mindsets are not the same. And it all depends on communicating what both you and the other feel is best for both you and them.
And you could have still went to a show if you weren't vaccinated. Based on your mindset, you decided and chose not to because you didn't want to risk catching it. That's totally fine and one aspect I admire from people for doing what's best for them.
This is a two way street. Those who are vaccinated should be living their lives to better themselves or else it's a slap in the face to those people whom took it because of a moral ethical thought of I care and am selfless to the other.
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Well actually Ben starting October 1st, Live Nation is making you show proof of vaccination or you can't get into any of their shows.
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Well actually Ben starting October 1st, Live Nation is making you show proof of vaccination or you can't get into any of their shows.
GOOD!!!
I will rest a little easier knowing that I'm going to an DT concert knowing that is that restriction in place even though there will be some a-holes that will circumvent it. Like I said earlier, it's time to restrict their choices for the good of all human kind.
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Well actually Ben starting October 1st, Live Nation is making you show proof of vaccination or you can't get into any of their shows.
I am good with that. Even though I am fully vaccinated and wish everyone would be so as well, I fully support anyone's right to not get vaccinated. However, with that choice comes consequences, and the above is one. Choose not to get vaccinated? Okay. Then you can't go to concerts. Your choice.
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Well actually Ben starting October 1st, Live Nation is making you show proof of vaccination or you can't get into any of their shows.
I am good with that. Even though I am fully vaccinated and wish everyone would be so as well, I fully support anyone's right to not get vaccinated. However, with that choice comes consequences, and the above is one. Choose not to get vaccinated? Okay. Then you can't go to concerts. Your choice.
I'm fine with it, but LN's got an easy out since it's only applicable where allowed by law. Their policy won't be applicable in Texas (or any other states run by conservative whackjobs). If LN had any balls they'd only hold events in states that would allow them to enforce that policy. Sports leagues should probably follow suit, but things haven't gotten to the point where big money is willing to make a stand.
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Negative test results as well. Here is the info from Rolling Stone.
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/live-nation-updates-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test-1212323/
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Well actually Ben starting October 1st, Live Nation is making you show proof of vaccination or you can't get into any of their shows.
I am good with that. Even though I am fully vaccinated and wish everyone would be so as well, I fully support anyone's right to not get vaccinated. However, with that choice comes consequences, and the above is one. Choose not to get vaccinated? Okay. Then you can't go to concerts. Your choice.
That is the nuts and bolts of it, and that's what people are going to have to accept going forward for the next few years.
It just fucking sucks that there will be preventable deaths of those who can't get vaxxed, solely because of the ignorant selfishness of those who don't want to.
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Well actually Ben starting October 1st, Live Nation is making you show proof of vaccination or you can't get into any of their shows.
Over here, they're requiring a negative test to be let in. And that doesn't start until October 18th.
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Ben, see my link. I added that as well.
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The local AEG venue, Starland Ballroom is only for fully vaxxed soon. When they made the announcement (first concert at the indoor venue since covid started is next weekend) they will allow negative test results or vaccination, but once October hits it will be vaccine only. I think that's them trying to be fair to give people the opportunity to get vaxxed before it becomes official policy.
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Ben, see my link. I added that as well.
This is what it says on my venues live nation page...
We’re committed to doing everything we can to ensure we can continue bringing amazing live concerts to fans. Starting October 4th, prior to entry into Isleta Amphitheater, ALL shows will require attendees to provide proof of a negative COVID-19 test result within 72 hours of the event OR full COVID-19 vaccination (at least two weeks after final dose). Proof must be a PRINTED copy of a negative test result or vaccination, or the original vaccination card.
Select artists and shows will require these same entry protocols BEFORE October 4th. Please check the Pre-October 4 tab on this page for more information.
Please note that requirements and venue protocols, such as testing and vaccination, are subject to change, so be sure to check back closer to your event date for the latest information.
I am fine with negative tests. As testing is the best indicator to stop the spread, yet, doesn't matter if the vaccinated can spread it as well and they're not being tested.
But since they know what's best for me more than I do, I guess I don't really need concerts to enjoy life. I guess I am not privileged to enjoy a show. As I am considered contaminated and just do not care about others and might infect you all and make you die. I'll just go be in my cave.
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Well, the best is the vaccine but I worry that they use the quick test which has shown to be incompetent compared to the normal test. Which takes 3 to 5 days to get results.
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Then we have this story...
https://www.kob.com/albuquerque-news/new-mexico-youth-livestock-expo-to-relocate-to-roswell/6219714/
The New Mexico Youth Livestock Expo is relocating to Roswell over Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham’s State Fair vaccination mandate.
The expo will be held in Roswell from Sept. 14-17.
Grisham’s most recent health order mandated vaccinations for all eligible individuals at the New Mexico State Fair in Albuquerque. The result of the mandate was the exclusion of 4-H and FFA children who did not want the vaccine or did not have time to complete the two-dose vaccine cycle before the fair.
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Well, the best is the vaccine but I worry that they use the quick test which has shown to be incompetent compared to the normal test. Which takes 3 to 5 days to get results.
But then that also means it affects many other things that currently require testing for entry.
It doesn't matter though which test you do as long as you show a test that is negative.
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There is a lot of false negatives with the quick test. My wife works at a hospital. It's been in the news.
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My wife works at a hospital. It's been in the news.
I saw that.
I believe the headline was “Queen goes to work”
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And then there’s news like this.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/unvaccinated-unmasked-teacher-spreads-covid-19-elementary-school-students-cdc-n1277852
This happened 3 months ago. I wonder how many dozens, hundreds or even thousands of examples like his exist? To summarize:
Officials from the Marin County Department of Public Health initiated an investigation into the classroom outbreak on May 26, three days after the teacher reported testing positive for Covid-19. The teacher, who initially attributed symptoms to allergies, was one of only two staff members that had not been vaccinated at the elementary school.
Among the teacher’s 24 students, 22 who were ineligible for vaccination because of age were tested. Twelve tested positive for the virus, according to the report, written by county health officials and experts at the University of California's Berkeley, Davis and Santa Cruz campuses.
A majority of the students sitting in the first two rows of the classroom contracted the virus, while a minority of those sitting at the back of the class were infected. The teacher occasionally read aloud to students while unmasked, despite school requirements to mask while indoors, according to the report.
Four students from other classrooms also tested positive to Covid-19. They were all siblings of three students in the unvaccinated teacher's classroom, "and exposure was assumed to have occurred in their respective homes," the CDC reported.
Four parents of children at the school were later infected in the outbreak, according to the report. Of the infected parents, only one was unvaccinated. The vaccinated experienced symptoms including fever, chills, cough, headache and loss of smell.
Additionally, six students from a different grade also tested positive for Covid-19 after one student hosted a sleepover with two other students from the same class, the CDC reported. All students infected in this classroom were also ineligible for vaccination due to age.
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So, seems the shit has been hitting the fan here where I live:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/oregon-covid-19-patients-hospital-icu/
We’ve avoided a surge here like this since it all started last year, but with Delta and the general attitude of folks in the area about masks and vaccines, it was bound to happen. The line of vehicles to get COVID tested in your car is taking several hours to get through due to sheer volume. In Roseburg 90 minutes north of us, a dude died in the ER waiting for an ICU bed to clear up. Shit’s gotten real here, and having a toddler and now also recently a newborn in the house, it definitely has my wife and I just a wee bit on edge.
At least between COVID and the wildfire smoke filling the valley, we don’t have much inclination to leave the house save for but a few necessary trips.
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And then there’s news like this.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/unvaccinated-unmasked-teacher-spreads-covid-19-elementary-school-students-cdc-n1277852
This happened 3 months ago. I wonder how many dozens, hundreds or even thousands of examples like his exist? To summarize:
Officials from the Marin County Department of Public Health initiated an investigation into the classroom outbreak on May 26, three days after the teacher reported testing positive for Covid-19. The teacher, who initially attributed symptoms to allergies, was one of only two staff members that had not been vaccinated at the elementary school.
Among the teacher’s 24 students, 22 who were ineligible for vaccination because of age were tested. Twelve tested positive for the virus, according to the report, written by county health officials and experts at the University of California's Berkeley, Davis and Santa Cruz campuses.
A majority of the students sitting in the first two rows of the classroom contracted the virus, while a minority of those sitting at the back of the class were infected. The teacher occasionally read aloud to students while unmasked, despite school requirements to mask while indoors, according to the report.
Four students from other classrooms also tested positive to Covid-19. They were all siblings of three students in the unvaccinated teacher's classroom, "and exposure was assumed to have occurred in their respective homes," the CDC reported.
Four parents of children at the school were later infected in the outbreak, according to the report. Of the infected parents, only one was unvaccinated. The vaccinated experienced symptoms including fever, chills, cough, headache and loss of smell.
Additionally, six students from a different grade also tested positive for Covid-19 after one student hosted a sleepover with two other students from the same class, the CDC reported. All students infected in this classroom were also ineligible for vaccination due to age.
Why is the vaccine the relevant part of that story? Isn't the gist that she had symptoms and ignored them? I think the message should be that, because how many VACCINATED people are like "oh, I have allergies because I've been vaccinated" and are doing the same thing?
Also, why isn't a POSITIVE TEST more than 14 days ago also acceptable? (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-no-infection-parties)
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Because even though those vaccinated can still spread covid, the percentage of it spreading is less if they were all vaccinated. Unvaccinated people spread the virus at a higher rate. It also doubles the risk of hospitalization.
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Because even though those vaccinated can still spread covid, the percentage of it spreading is less if they were all vaccinated. Unvaccinated people spread the virus at a higher rate. It also doubles the risk of hospitalization.
I understand that; but isn't the point about the spread? I feel like this isn't really about science, but is yet another way to pile on and beat up those that don't share the same risk profile.
That Israeli study is important. We're in typical U.S. "shame" mode because the unvaccinated aren't doing what we want them to, but LONG TERM, it's likely that the "COVIDIOTS" (I hate that term but I'm making a point) are going to be a key part of our long term battle against this virus. If we get to the point of this being another form of the "common cold" (which the article, in a peer-reviewed, well accepted journal indicates is a very likely possibility) it's going to be all the pieces working together; it's not JUST going to be because of the narrative that the vaccinated people did their part in spite of the "COVIDIOTS".
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The way it has been explained to me is that to think about it like a simple math problem.
Vaccinated people are far less likely to even get Covid. Less Covid = less spread
Those small percentages of folks to do get breakthrough Covid are infectious for far fewer hours when looking at infectivity rates. So with the vaccine (I'm paraphrasing) 72 hours, without something like 14 days. It makes sense because vaccinated people tend to have symptoms for less time too.
As others have said, we will never get to Covid zero. But getting the vaccine is a damn good way to get to herd immunity and prevent more variants that actually could fully jump the vaccine at some point.
Vaccinated people do not seem to be aware that symptoms of Delta are more upper respiratory - cough, congestion, sore throat, headache. Same exact symptoms as my allergies. During our recent foundation work, my allergies to dust and molds kicked up and I canceled all my in-person activities on the outside chance it was Delta. A few days on Claritin and all was well again.
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But getting the vaccine is a damn good way to get to herd immunity and prevent more variants that actually could fully jump the vaccine at some point.
No argument; I get all the information you posted that I deleted; I'm talking about that line right there above. Whether the infection rate is 1 in 10 or 1 in 1,000, it's about the 1, not the 10 or 1,000. We're going to get herd immunity one way or the other, and when we do it won't make a distinction between the COVIDIOTS and those on the "right side of history". YOU obviously did the right thing for you and those around you, by cutting back your activities. I'm saying that the message ought to be, vaccine or no, if one presents a danger, act accordingly.
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Wearing seatbelts saved lives. Not all but more were alive because of it. Same goes for the vaccine. It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it. Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.
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Was having fun looking at some numbers...it's estimated that an infected person carries anywhere from 1 to 100 billion virus particles in them. The new case count from just yesterday was almost 700k worldwide. That's a lot of chances for mutation.
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Wearing seatbelts saved lives. Not all but more were alive because of it. Same goes for the vaccine. It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it. Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.
No doubt. I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate. But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop. We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission. We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.
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Yeah but those ridiculing you can't fine you unlike a cop. So their work means nothing because they are not the authority.
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Wearing seatbelts saved lives. Not all but more were alive because of it. Same goes for the vaccine. It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it. Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.
No doubt. I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate. But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop. We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission. We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.
But they are retroactively using seat belt/helmet laws as a way of mocking the new generation as 'soft', saying the kids these days aren't as tough, are coddled, and unprepared for life because they were wrapped in bubble wrap and recieved participation trophies and all that bullshit. It's the same rhetoric a lot of them are currently using for the vaccine. "I have an immune system, I don't need it"...."If I get it, I get it...it's just a flu anyways" and my personal favorite "Jesus is my vaccine"
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Wearing seatbelts saved lives. Not all but more were alive because of it. Same goes for the vaccine. It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it. Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.
No doubt. I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate. But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop. We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission. We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.
But they are retroactively using seat belt/helmet laws as a way of mocking the new generation as 'soft', saying the kids these days aren't as tough, are coddled, and unprepared for life because they were wrapped in bubble wrap and recieved participation trophies and all that bullshit. It's the same rhetoric a lot of them are currently using for the vaccine. "I have an immune system, I don't need it"...."If I get it, I get it...it's just a flu anyways" and my personal favorite "Jesus is my vaccine"
Indeed. I also see both sides as pretty equally mocking and insulting of the other. I don't think the pro vax crowd has any monopoly on poor behavior or treatment of others here. The anti-vaxxers are just as mean spirited, cruel, mocking ,insulting, etc. I'd agree both parties need to stop as it helps no one at all. I know Stadler disagrees with this, but marginalization doesn't actually help anything.
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Wearing seatbelts saved lives. Not all but more were alive because of it. Same goes for the vaccine. It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it. Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.
No doubt. I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate. But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop. We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission. We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.
But they are retroactively using seat belt/helmet laws as a way of mocking the new generation as 'soft', saying the kids these days aren't as tough, are coddled, and unprepared for life because they were wrapped in bubble wrap and recieved participation trophies and all that bullshit. It's the same rhetoric a lot of them are currently using for the vaccine. "I have an immune system, I don't need it"...."If I get it, I get it...it's just a flu anyways" and my personal favorite "Jesus is my vaccine"
Bikers should wear helmets. But hardly any of them do wear helmets. Why not ask them all why they are not wearing helmets and they're dumb for not wearing helmets. Go to Sturgis and say that out loud.
As Stads said...it's risk and people take risks I consider stupid all the time. But I don't call them names for it or wish for them to die or to get hurt for doing that act of risk I consider dumb that I do not evaluate myself taking that risk as that person does.
And as Stads also pointed out. If it's about spread, why are the vaccinated not being required to test, and what would happen if an event happened and no unvaccinated were present, yet people still got Covid-19.
Kiss, a band that took so many precautions, and still Paul Stanley gets Covid-19. If they were to have tested, that person who tested positive wouldn't have been able to show up for work and likely Paul Stanley would not have tested positive. Unless, he got it from another place that was not part of the concert, like at the hotel room.
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Wearing seatbelts saved lives. Not all but more were alive because of it. Same goes for the vaccine. It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it. Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.
No doubt. I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate. But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations
We do in the UK.
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Wearing seatbelts saved lives. Not all but more were alive because of it. Same goes for the vaccine. It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it. Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.
No doubt. I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate. But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop. We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission. We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.
But they are retroactively using seat belt/helmet laws as a way of mocking the new generation as 'soft', saying the kids these days aren't as tough, are coddled, and unprepared for life because they were wrapped in bubble wrap and recieved participation trophies and all that bullshit. It's the same rhetoric a lot of them are currently using for the vaccine. "I have an immune system, I don't need it"...."If I get it, I get it...it's just a flu anyways" and my personal favorite "Jesus is my vaccine"
Respectfully, that's the sort of typical focus on the most extreme aspects to make a point I'm talking about. Mocking them, ridiculing them, marginalizing them. I know three people that aren't vaccinated, and one that is... I don't if "regretting" is the right word, but feels like she really didn't have a choice in the matter and isn't happy about it. NOT ONE OF THEM is saying any of those things. Now, they may or may not be "correct" in terms of the hard science for their rationale, but they DO have a rationale that goes beyond "Jesus is my vaccine". I can - we can - disagree with them without disparaging their character.
Every single one of us has (or is) doing something that is "stupid" objectively, but that we've made a quasi-rational determination - or maybe not even that - to disregard the common wisdom. And some of those things harm other people.
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Wearing seatbelts saved lives. Not all but more were alive because of it. Same goes for the vaccine. It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it. Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.
No doubt. I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate. But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop.
We didn't? Texas cops apparently never got that message. Down here they can even arrest you for it.
In any case, the seatbelt analogy doesn't work. There's no secondary risk if you choose to be a crash test dummy.
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I know three people that aren't vaccinated, and one that is... I don't if "regretting" is the right word, but feels like she really didn't have a choice in the matter and isn't happy about it. NOT ONE OF THEM is saying any of those things.
You're the lucky one. Every single anti-vax person I know (and that number is higher than I like) is a raging asshole about it, an insufferable bastard, including my brother in law. They believe whatever stupid shit some idiot posts on Tik Tok, and spread that crap all over their social media accounts. Loving attitudes and encouragement do not work on these people, neither does trying to reason with them or giving them facts or places to get facts.
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Wearing seatbelts saved lives. Not all but more were alive because of it. Same goes for the vaccine. It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it. Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.
No doubt. I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate. But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop. We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission. We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.
But they are retroactively using seat belt/helmet laws as a way of mocking the new generation as 'soft', saying the kids these days aren't as tough, are coddled, and unprepared for life because they were wrapped in bubble wrap and recieved participation trophies and all that bullshit. It's the same rhetoric a lot of them are currently using for the vaccine. "I have an immune system, I don't need it"...."If I get it, I get it...it's just a flu anyways" and my personal favorite "Jesus is my vaccine"
Indeed. I also see both sides as pretty equally mocking and insulting of the other. I don't think the pro vax crowd has any monopoly on poor behavior or treatment of others here. The anti-vaxxers are just as mean spirited, cruel, mocking ,insulting, etc. I'd agree both parties need to stop as it helps no one at all. I know Stadler disagrees with this, but marginalization doesn't actually help anything.
?? :o :angel:
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You're the lucky one. Every single anti-vax person I know (and that number is higher than I like) is a raging asshole about it, an insufferable bastard, including my brother in law. They believe whatever stupid shit some idiot posts on Tik Tok, and spread that crap all over their social media accounts.
Your experience is pretty different than mine. I can't claim I know many who are "anti." But of those I do know, some fit that description, some are politely resistant or hesitant for reasons they choose to mostly keep to themselves unless asked directly, and some fall somewhere in between. And I suspect, but cannot prove, that there are others who are "anti" or hesitant that I am unaware of because they politely keep their position to themselves. But in any case, the bigger question I have is relative to:
Loving attitudes and encouragement do not work on these people, neither does trying to reason with them or giving them facts or places to get facts.
What do you mean "does not work." Are you saying that only those people that agree with you or who you can convince/persuade (i.e., those upon whom your attempt to reason "works") deserve a loving attitude or encouragement? Don't all people believe that regardless of what they believe or how they act? Or to put it bluntly and adopt your terminology, if we withhold loving attitudes or encouragement from those we deem to be "assholes," aren't we being "assholes" as well?
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You're the lucky one. Every single anti-vax person I know (and that number is higher than I like) is a raging asshole about it, an insufferable bastard, including my brother in law. They believe whatever stupid shit some idiot posts on Tik Tok, and spread that crap all over their social media accounts.
Your experience is pretty different than mine. I can't claim I know many who are "anti." But of those I do know, some fit that description, some are politely resistant or hesitant for reasons they choose to mostly keep to themselves unless asked directly, and some fall somewhere in between. And I suspect, but cannot prove, that there are others who are "anti" or hesitant that I am unaware of because they politely keep their position to themselves. But in any case, the bigger question I have is relative to:
Loving attitudes and encouragement do not work on these people, neither does trying to reason with them or giving them facts or places to get facts.
What do you mean "does not work." Are you saying that only those people that agree with you or who you can convince/persuade (i.e., those upon whom your attempt to reason "works") deserve a loving attitude or encouragement? Don't all people believe that regardless of what they believe or how they act? Or to put it bluntly and adopt your terminology, if we withhold loving attitudes or encouragement from those we deem to be "assholes," aren't we being "assholes" as well?
Well, no.
I was talking about specifically this subject. Trying to engage with them in any kind of really positive way (like Stadler wants me to do) on this topic is a non-starter. It doesn't get you anywhere.
So, if the topic just doesn't come up, then we're cool. I don't judge a person entire on one topic (even a topic about which I feel very strongly).
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I'd say of the anti vaxxers I know, about half are assholes, and half are just kind of smart assed-shitty-holier than thou about it. I straight up treat them with contempt, and have no qualms about it.
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Not surprising.
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We all just need to take some livestock de-wormer, sit in a circle and sing kumbaya. That will make covid just go away.
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I know three people that aren't vaccinated, and one that is... I don't if "regretting" is the right word, but feels like she really didn't have a choice in the matter and isn't happy about it. NOT ONE OF THEM is saying any of those things.
You're the lucky one. Every single anti-vax person I know (and that number is higher than I like) is a raging asshole about it, an insufferable bastard, including my brother in law. They believe whatever stupid shit some idiot posts on Tik Tok, and spread that crap all over their social media accounts. Loving attitudes and encouragement do not work on these people, neither does trying to reason with them or giving them facts or places to get facts.
Every woman I've dated/married (except my current wife!) has cheated on me. Therefore all women are lying cheating whores. That's how it works, right? :) :)
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Not surprising.
The world is full of people who simply refuse to be reasonable. You of all people should know this. I'm content to leave them be, but if their response to a reasoned argument is first to move the goal posts, and then to attack me for being brainwashed, then I'd say they're honestly pretty deserving of contempt. Personally, I'd love the opportunity to set and talk to a reasonable antivaxer. Not one that would agree with me, mind you, but one that would at least listen to what I have to say and proffer up some valid counterpoints. Sadly, those types are few and far between compared to the obtuse dipshits.
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Loving attitudes and encouragement do not work on these people, neither does trying to reason with them or giving them facts or places to get facts.
Actually, you are factually wrong about that and I've posted numerous links to that effect. It DOES work, over time. It's the very marginalization that you all are engaging in that is, in part, encouraging and stimulating the "rebelliousness" (for lack of a better word). I've given links for that as well.
We talk all the time about being people of science, and yet when the science rubs against the grain it seems that all of a sudden not that important. Why do you get to ignore the science, but they don't?
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We all just need to take some livestock de-wormer, sit in a circle and sing kumbaya. That will make covid just go away.
:lol
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Not surprising.
The world is full of people who simply refuse to be reasonable. You of all people should know this. I'm content to leave them be, but if their response to a reasoned argument is first to move the goal posts, and then to attack me for being brainwashed, then I'd say they're honestly pretty deserving of contempt. Personally, I'd love the opportunity to set and talk to a reasonable antivaxer. Not one that would agree with me, mind you, but one that would at least listen to what I have to say and proffer up some valid counterpoints. Sadly, those types are few and far between compared to the obtuse dipshits.
One of the points I make a lot is that it's pretty hard to start that dialogue when the opening salvo is "COVIDIOTS". I can't imagine anyone here who is anti-vaxx wanting to subject themselves to the scorn and ridicule. It's like me over in that Fox-bashing thread; I've given the links refuting the reach of Fox, I've given the links refuting the audience for Fox, I've given the links regarding the ascendent partisanship of CNN and MSNBC, but in the face of an argument built on racist posts in the "comments" section, it's time to prioritize.
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Not surprising.
The world is full of people who simply refuse to be reasonable. You of all people should know this. I'm content to leave them be, but if their response to a reasoned argument is first to move the goal posts, and then to attack me for being brainwashed, then I'd say they're honestly pretty deserving of contempt. Personally, I'd love the opportunity to set and talk to a reasonable antivaxer. Not one that would agree with me, mind you, but one that would at least listen to what I have to say and proffer up some valid counterpoints. Sadly, those types are few and far between compared to the obtuse dipshits.
One of the points I make a lot is that it's pretty hard to start that dialogue when the opening salvo is "COVIDIOTS". I can't imagine anyone here who is anti-vaxx wanting to subject themselves to the scorn and ridicule. It's like me over in that Fox-bashing thread; I've given the links refuting the reach of Fox, I've given the links refuting the audience for Fox, I've given the links regarding the ascendent partisanship of CNN and MSNBC, but in the face of an argument built on racist posts in the "comments" section, it's time to prioritize.
Yeah, that's not me. I've never called anyone a covidiot. I have answered "honest questions" only to be treated to a series of nonsensical messages about experimental genetic testing, or misguided screeds about "personal responsibility," though. A person may well be a "covidiot," but until he demonstrates that he starts off inherently neutral in my book. If you're willing to have a civil conversation about something then I'm typically eager to partake. If you're not, then you're deserving of ridicule.
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edit, bugger it, never mind.
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Not surprising.
The world is full of people who simply refuse to be reasonable. You of all people should know this. I'm content to leave them be, but if their response to a reasoned argument is first to move the goal posts, and then to attack me for being brainwashed, then I'd say they're honestly pretty deserving of contempt. Personally, I'd love the opportunity to set and talk to a reasonable antivaxer. Not one that would agree with me, mind you, but one that would at least listen to what I have to say and proffer up some valid counterpoints. Sadly, those types are few and far between compared to the obtuse dipshits.
One of the points I make a lot is that it's pretty hard to start that dialogue when the opening salvo is "COVIDIOTS". I can't imagine anyone here who is anti-vaxx wanting to subject themselves to the scorn and ridicule.
This argument rings pretty false to me. The ridicule generally starts when people start saying ridiculous things, and out of personal experience, you can be as kind and loving and hedged as you like, they still won't listen to you, even people who are supposed to have some modicum of respect for you. (Hedging that mine were older, and older people think us younguns are stupid, but they do end up listening when it's something else)
This opinion post kind of nails it for me: https://imightbewrong.substack.com/p/how-do-we-get-enough-people-vaccinated
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Because even though those vaccinated can still spread covid, the percentage of it spreading is less if they were all vaccinated. Unvaccinated people spread the virus at a higher rate. It also doubles the risk of hospitalization.
I understand that; but isn't the point about the spread? I feel like this isn't really about science, but is yet another way to pile on and beat up those that don't share the same risk profile.
That Israeli study is important. We're in typical U.S. "shame" mode because the unvaccinated aren't doing what we want them to,
You know Bill, I luv ya and all, but I'm a little sick and fucking tired of you boiling this down to what "we" (royal/proverbial) WANT. This isn't about what I WANT - it's about unvaccinated people refusing to take reasonable steps to safeguard public health. If someone doesn't wear a hair net in a kitchen restaurant, it isn't because *I* want them to. If someone doesn't build my house with asbestos, it's not because *I* want it that way. If jingle.daughter were to have sex with someone who has AIDS, it's not that I expect them to disclose it just because *I* want them to.
What I *want* is public health. What I *want* is to personally not have to worry that others' choices are going to affect my health. It's the outcome that I want, I don't give a fuck about the behaviour to get that outcome. I (and you) took the vaccine, and mask up when/where necessary. Those are the steps that we took to do our part to achieve that outcome. For others that actively choose to not follow those steps (especially when doing so is a direct contradiction to your gov't or employment guidance), then stay the fuck out of situations where you might collect someone's droplets, and/or pass infected droplets along to others.
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we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop. We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission. We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.
What? Absolutely the Po-Po can pull you over for a seatbelt violation (at least, up here they can). If social media existed in the 70s and 80s when seatbelts became law, and if LBJ/Nixon/Ford had encouraged people NOT to wear seatbelts, I'm pretty sure lots of people would have resisted it. And I think people are refusing to hang out with unvaccinated not for their views, but for the fact they're UN-FUCKING-VACCINATED.
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Went to the final round of the BMW Championship yesterday here in Maryland. Masks were required at our 16th/17th hole 'trophy club' building, the merchandise store, but......not in the buses for the 15 minute ride to and from the prepaid parking lot. So.....we're all in a sardine can, and 70% of the riders were unmasked. :censored
Our positivity rate is now near 5%, hospitalizations up to near 800 from below 100 in the last month, but our governor plays risk with kids going back to school without a state mandate, and.... people are still waiting to get UE checks from the state. Oddly, some times people get a late response (if any) because some intern is on vacation.
https://raskin.house.gov/2021/8/maryland-congressional-delegation-pushes-for-answers-from-state-department-of-labor-on-delivery-of-unemployment-benefits
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Not surprising.
The world is full of people who simply refuse to be reasonable. You of all people should know this. I'm content to leave them be, but if their response to a reasoned argument is first to move the goal posts, and then to attack me for being brainwashed, then I'd say they're honestly pretty deserving of contempt. Personally, I'd love the opportunity to set and talk to a reasonable antivaxer. Not one that would agree with me, mind you, but one that would at least listen to what I have to say and proffer up some valid counterpoints. Sadly, those types are few and far between compared to the obtuse dipshits.
One of the points I make a lot is that it's pretty hard to start that dialogue when the opening salvo is "COVIDIOTS". I can't imagine anyone here who is anti-vaxx wanting to subject themselves to the scorn and ridicule. It's like me over in that Fox-bashing thread; I've given the links refuting the reach of Fox, I've given the links refuting the audience for Fox, I've given the links regarding the ascendent partisanship of CNN and MSNBC, but in the face of an argument built on racist posts in the "comments" section, it's time to prioritize.
Yeah, that's not me. I've never called anyone a covidiot. I have answered "honest questions" only to be treated to a series of nonsensical messages about experimental genetic testing, or misguided screeds about "personal responsibility," though. A person may well be a "covidiot," but until he demonstrates that he starts off inherently neutral in my book. If you're willing to have a civil conversation about something then I'm typically eager to partake. If you're not, then you're deserving of ridicule.
Same here.
It's like trying to have a sane conversation with a QAnon follower or a flat Earther. You pretty much know what you are going to get going in.
Anyone follow scitimewithtracy? She's a PhD in microbiology and immunology. She typically posts up someone talking about the vaccine who has questions or is saying something incorrect and then rebuts the inaccuracies in real time. It's pretty good and she's not disparaging, just stating the facts.
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we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop. We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission. We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.
What? Absolutely the Po-Po can pull you over for a seatbelt violation (at least, up here they can). If social media existed in the 70s and 80s when seatbelts became law, and if LBJ/Nixon/Ford had encouraged people NOT to wear seatbelts, I'm pretty sure lots of people would have resisted it. And I think people are refusing to hang out with unvaccinated not for their views, but for the fact they're UN-FUCKING-VACCINATED.
If they're so concerned and worried about it they are.
I know many people who just don't care and still hang out with unvaccinated people. They understand being vaccinated is fine and if that other person is unvaccinated than that is their choice. I know people who hang out at places with unvaccinated people. These people are not worried as much about it, their risk is now smaller because they took the vaccine, so their mindset is now "why worry? I took the vaccine so I should be fine?"
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Not surprising.
The world is full of people who simply refuse to be reasonable. You of all people should know this. I'm content to leave them be, but if their response to a reasoned argument is first to move the goal posts, and then to attack me for being brainwashed, then I'd say they're honestly pretty deserving of contempt. Personally, I'd love the opportunity to set and talk to a reasonable antivaxer. Not one that would agree with me, mind you, but one that would at least listen to what I have to say and proffer up some valid counterpoints. Sadly, those types are few and far between compared to the obtuse dipshits.
One of the points I make a lot is that it's pretty hard to start that dialogue when the opening salvo is "COVIDIOTS". I can't imagine anyone here who is anti-vaxx wanting to subject themselves to the scorn and ridicule. It's like me over in that Fox-bashing thread; I've given the links refuting the reach of Fox, I've given the links refuting the audience for Fox, I've given the links regarding the ascendent partisanship of CNN and MSNBC, but in the face of an argument built on racist posts in the "comments" section, it's time to prioritize.
Yeah, that's not me. I've never called anyone a covidiot. I have answered "honest questions" only to be treated to a series of nonsensical messages about experimental genetic testing, or misguided screeds about "personal responsibility," though. A person may well be a "covidiot," but until he demonstrates that he starts off inherently neutral in my book. If you're willing to have a civil conversation about something then I'm typically eager to partake. If you're not, then you're deserving of ridicule.
Same here.
It's like trying to have a sane conversation with a QAnon follower or a flat Earther. You pretty much know what you are going to get going in.
Anyone follow scitimewithtracy? She's a PhD in microbiology and immunology. She typically posts up someone talking about the vaccine who has questions or is saying something incorrect and then rebuts the inaccuracies in real time. It's pretty good and she's not disparaging, just stating the facts.
Unfortunately simple facts are pretty worthless when flying in the face of fanaticism, which is the level the antivax movement has moved to. The main reason I take serious umbrage to it is that I am allergic to a vaccine, and the disease it would protect me against would put me out for a month at least at my age, but most antivaxxers put it off as a simple childhood illness, a mild inconvenience at best and profess the benefits of 'natural immunity' even though the process of getting said kids natural immunity could be very, very devistating to me if I got caught in the crossfire.
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Latest NJ breakthrough statistics tweeted by our governor today up to August 15th
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-DgW2AWEAgPLPc?format=jpg&name=large)
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In The Netherlands, the latest data shows fully vaccinated people are 20 times less likely to end up in a hospital and 33 times less likely to end up in an ICU due to covid, when compared to unvaccinated people. The vast majority of people in hospitals right now because of covid are unvaccinated people.
(Dutch source https://www.rivm.nl/nieuws/vaccins-ook-bij-deltavariant-zeer-effectief-tegen-ziekenhuis-en-ic-opname (https://www.rivm.nl/nieuws/vaccins-ook-bij-deltavariant-zeer-effectief-tegen-ziekenhuis-en-ic-opname))
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Because even though those vaccinated can still spread covid, the percentage of it spreading is less if they were all vaccinated. Unvaccinated people spread the virus at a higher rate. It also doubles the risk of hospitalization.
I understand that; but isn't the point about the spread? I feel like this isn't really about science, but is yet another way to pile on and beat up those that don't share the same risk profile.
That Israeli study is important. We're in typical U.S. "shame" mode because the unvaccinated aren't doing what we want them to,
You know Bill, I luv ya and all, but I'm a little sick and fucking tired of you boiling this down to what "we" (royal/proverbial) WANT. This isn't about what I WANT - it's about unvaccinated people refusing to take reasonable steps to safeguard public health. If someone doesn't wear a hair net in a kitchen restaurant, it isn't because *I* want them to. If someone doesn't build my house with asbestos, it's not because *I* want it that way. If jingle.daughter were to have sex with someone who has AIDS, it's not that I expect them to disclose it just because *I* want them to.
What I *want* is public health. What I *want* is to personally not have to worry that others' choices are going to affect my health. It's the outcome that I want, I don't give a fuck about the behaviour to get that outcome. I (and you) took the vaccine, and mask up when/where necessary. Those are the steps that we took to do our part to achieve that outcome. For others that actively choose to not follow those steps (especially when doing so is a direct contradiction to your gov't or employment guidance), then stay the fuck out of situations where you might collect someone's droplets, and/or pass infected droplets along to others.
It IS what you want. "Reasonable steps"; some people DO NOT WANT TO PUT THAT SHOT IN THEIR BODY. They get to decide that, whether you - or I, mind you - think it's reasonable or not. I don't care if we've "forced" this before. That doesn't make it right from the standpoint of someone's personal decision. I don't care if they pound diet soda or smoke. That doesn't make it right from the standpoint of someone's personal decision. There are countless people that homeschool their kids for this very reason. It doesn't matter if they are "right" or "wrong".
I think we've lost perspective on this. Some of you - maybe from your own experience, rightfully - are dismissing these people as "morons" because they are factually incorrect. And I'm saying that it doesn't matter. I'm saying that's a big part of our divisiveness in our country today. FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, that's Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and yet I treat her with reasonable respect and dignity. I think she's top five most dangerous politicians in our government, yet, if you've noticed, I NEVER - EVER - refer to her as anything other than "Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez". I never make fun of her, I don't even shorten her name to "AOC". Some of the things she says are provably, factually wrong, and while they don't sound batshit crazy to some of you, they are nonetheless still PROVABLY, FACTUALLY wrong. And how many people do you know that dismiss her as a loon? Is it right? NOPE, and it's a big part of why our government is as incapable of acting as it's ever been, technology and communication notwithstanding.
I'm not asking any of you to LIKE what these people are doing - I don't - or agree with it - I don't. I'm asking you to understand that you might actually have a role in WHY they are so recalcitrant, militantly so. It's not going to change overnight in the snap of a finger, but every brick in the wall helps. Just like every person that doesn't take the easy way out with a racial stereotype is making the world a (slightly) better place.
Ironically, "do your part"; I'm asking you to do with discourse exactly what you're trying to force everyone else to do with vaccines, except I'm not forcing you to do it, I'm ASKING. Big difference.
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I'm not sure how to make my point any clearer, but something is clearly getting lost in translation about "wants". I don't know how else to state it, so I won't try any further.
Regarless, if you're going to draw even the slightest comparison of the outcomes of COVID to the outcomes of 'pounding diet soda or smoking', then you've permanently lost me. As EB and many others have pointed out, those are PERSONAL decisions, with individual and personal ramifications, and does not have the potential of directly impacting my health.
And where the fuck does AOC (it's just easier to type it that way) come into this? Serious statement this time, don't make this political. Take those arguments to the Politics of Coronavirus thread.
We see things very differently. You seem to believe that it's reasonable for people to act in a manner that shows a complete disregard of any concern for PUBLIC health. I don't think it's unreasonable for people take steps to safeguard public health. We'll agree to disagree.
I yield, counsellor.
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Myself and Mrs Gan were at the store the other day and probably just over half of the people were wearing masks (suburban North Carolina, fwiw). I can't help but see people not wearing masks, assuming they're probably unvaxxed too, and just wonder how many of them will be dead by the end of the year because they're not taking very basic steps to protect themselves and others out of some bizarre sense of pride. It's not even sad anymore; if you're not convinced at this point nothing will do the job. Only way we're getting close to normal is once the virus has had its way with everyone, and I feel not an ounce of sympathy for anyone who gets it bad if they chose not to get vaxxed/wear masks/distance etc. If you can't take the vax for medical reasons that's obviously different. But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.
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I'm not sure how to make my point any clearer, but something is clearly getting lost in translation about "wants". I don't know how else to state it, so I won't try any further.
Regarless, if you're going to draw even the slightest comparison of the outcomes of COVID to the outcomes of 'pounding diet soda or smoking', then you've permanently lost me. As EB and many others have pointed out, those are PERSONAL decisions, with individual and personal ramifications, and does not have the potential of directly impacting my health.
And where the fuck does AOC (it's just easier to type it that way) come into this? Serious statement this time, don't make this political. Take those arguments to the Politics of Coronavirus thread.
We see things very differently. You seem to believe that it's reasonable for people to act in a manner that shows a complete disregard of any concern for PUBLIC health. I don't think it's unreasonable for people take steps to safeguard public health. We'll agree to disagree.
I yield, counsellor.
Many of these people's personal decisions, ended up with consequences that made them susceptible to Covid-19. All these conditions that are affecting the health of our nation's people are easily preventable. But does our government do something about it. Yes it has, and that is the "Soda Tax", the "Cigarette Tax" and the "Alcohol tax". They tried taking away the unhealthy alcohol and we know what the consequences of that decision was, the people did not like it and rebelled, even though getting rid of the alcohol is beneficial for the health of the people.
And I've said it before, there are things that impact your health that you may be unaware of that does affect your health, even if it does it slowly. There's people with running water that is toxic they have to boil it, oil leakage causes water contamination which affects the wells for drinking water.
Someone could poison the water hole, or even, slip some certain substance into your food. Cooks whom don't cook your food right affects your health if you get food poisoning. Eating raw, undercooked meats, gets you food poisoning, and I your immune system isn't strong enough, that can kill you.
Businesses disregard the publics health for their factories which sends pollutants into the air and now we humans are concerned and worried about the Ozone layer.
I am telling you, if they really cared about our public health than I would question why are they not concerned about these other decisions they decide that does affect all of our public health?
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But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.
It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid. You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were. But it's not happening. I don't get it.
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But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.
It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid. You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were. But it's not happening. I don't get it.
I can't remember which radio personality it was, as there have been a few of them now, but I was reading that one of them was still claiming online that Covid was a hoax from his hospital bed.
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But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.
It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid. You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were. But it's not happening. I don't get it.
Nah, they'll just choose to believe the guy that says Delta is caused by the vaccine. It was the rest of us that killed him, rather than his own poor judgement.
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Every woman I've dated/married (except my current wife!) has cheated on me. Therefore all women are lying cheating whores. That's how it works, right? :) :)
No, just all women that YOU date (except your current wife).
Loving attitudes and encouragement do not work on these people, neither does trying to reason with them or giving them facts or places to get facts.
Actually, you are factually wrong about that and I've posted numerous links to that effect. It DOES work, over time. It's the very marginalization that you all are engaging in that is, in part, encouraging and stimulating the "rebelliousness" (for lack of a better word). I've given links for that as well.
We talk all the time about being people of science, and yet when the science rubs against the grain it seems that all of a sudden not that important. Why do you get to ignore the science, but they don't?
How much time should I give these people? Asking for a friend. Since, you know, we don't have any time due to hospitals filling up right now and all.
I've never called anyone a covidiot. I have answered "honest questions" only to be treated to a series of nonsensical messages about experimental genetic testing, or misguided screeds about "personal responsibility," though. A person may well be a "covidiot," but until he demonstrates that he starts off inherently neutral in my book. If you're willing to have a civil conversation about something then I'm typically eager to partake. If you're not, then you're deserving of ridicule.
Exactly. My stance exactly.
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/31/native-american-tribes-mask-mandates-schools
Native tribes are able to circumvent state bans and institute their own mandates.
Under the US constitution, federally recognized tribes, such as the Navajo Nation and the Cherokee Nation, have self-governing authority, and so have been able to implement mask mandates despite the statewide bans.
Jason Dropik, board president of the National Indian Education Association and the head of the Indian community school in Wisconsin, said the majority of Native communities he had heard from in states with these bans have implemented mask mandates.
The reasoning, he explained, often had to do with the fact that Indigenous Americans have had to deal with a disproportionately high death toll from Covid. According to an analysis released in February, one in every 475 Native Americans has died since the pandemic started – a greater proportion of any other demographic in the country.
Man, 1 in 475. I didn't realize the numbers were that bad.
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But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.
It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid. You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were. But it's not happening. I don't get it.
Because people think for themselves and these people do not follow or idolize these people like people do with celebrities and youtubers. That's why these people are not convinced by these "influencers" deaths.
It's showing you that not everyone that is unvaccinated thinks this way or is idolizing a person's vocal opinion. It's showing there are many different reasons for why someone is unvaccinated. And it's not what you, or others, assume these people's mindsets to be, based off your own assumptions and experiences.
Others do experience these people that do have their reasons for being unvaccinated, and it's not because someone on the internet told them too.
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/31/native-american-tribes-mask-mandates-schools
Native tribes are able to circumvent state bans and institute their own mandates.
Under the US constitution, federally recognized tribes, such as the Navajo Nation and the Cherokee Nation, have self-governing authority, and so have been able to implement mask mandates despite the statewide bans.
Jason Dropik, board president of the National Indian Education Association and the head of the Indian community school in Wisconsin, said the majority of Native communities he had heard from in states with these bans have implemented mask mandates.
The reasoning, he explained, often had to do with the fact that Indigenous Americans have had to deal with a disproportionately high death toll from Covid. According to an analysis released in February, one in every 475 Native Americans has died since the pandemic started – a greater proportion of any other demographic in the country.
Man, 1 in 475. I didn't realize the numbers were that bad.
I can give you many, many, many explanations as to why. And I have before...
One explanation is due to how our people were treated and the things that were done to us to deplete our own resources we relied on for our health. Food, our land, and our livelihoods. We became dependant on the other, that these products of foods made us unhealthy, these were called commodities. Which gave the rise in what we term Frybread. Which in turn caused our people to have these high rates of unhealthy conditions that are making us susceptible to this disease and is killing us due to the lack of basic resources humans require to survive.
We were forced onto these reservations where the land was hard to work with and harder to grow foods, we suffer from lack of clean water, and lack of basic healthcare needs. We get the backend of that stick and usually when we go into the doctor, we are told "oh, it's just a virus, take these and get some rest."
There's more when you dig deeper that caused us Natives to have these high rates of unhealthiness, to the point this virus is detrimental to us.
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But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.
It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid. You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were. But it's not happening. I don't get it.
Because people think for themselves and these people do not follow or idolize these people like people do with celebrities and youtubers. That's why these people are not convinced by these "influencers" deaths.
If that was true, Alex Jones wouldn't sell millions of dollars worth of "Super Male Vitality" pills a year.
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But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.
It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid. You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were. But it's not happening. I don't get it.
Nah, they'll just choose to believe the guy that says Delta is caused by the vaccine. It was the rest of us that killed him, rather than his own poor judgement.
So it's his personal choice that killed him. :biggrin:
And not any of the unvaccinated or the vaccinated that can still spread it. Are these people blaming others for supposedly giving them Covid-19 and them in the hospital for it? No, they're saying how it's their own fault. They're taking personal accountability. Unlike some that do not take accountability for putting themselves in that situation by ignoring the advice of the doctors and many experts saying how food and diet is essential to ones health.
I only say this due to how much people in the US have these health conditions that make them susceptible to hospitalization due to Covid-19. And these are easily preventable conditions.
:biggrin:
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Others do experience these people that do have their reasons for being unvaccinated, and it's not because someone on the internet told them too.
There's plenty of legit reasons to be unvaccinated, this discussion has never been about them. It's specifically about the people not being vaccinated because of bogus claims, almost all of which come from random people on social media who profit off these bogus claims.
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But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.
It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid. You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were. But it's not happening. I don't get it.
Because people think for themselves and these people do not follow or idolize these people like people do with celebrities and youtubers. That's why these people are not convinced by these "influencers" deaths.
If that was true, Alex Jones wouldn't sell millions of dollars worth of "Super Male Vitality" pills a year.
Yeah and people buy questionable crap all the damn time. It's the point of Steven Wilson making Personal Shopper. Consumerism works and Alex Jones is proof that if you are vocal and have a presence you will get people to listen to you. Anything else people do of their own choice. Alex Jones is not forcing people to buy his male enhancement crap. People who can't get it up are the ones buying his crap.
Just look at how many women read certain books because it's featured and has an Oprah sticker on the cover. How many people buy things on TV, and how many people follow trends on social media, such as the tide pod challenge or the milk crate challenge.
People choose to do these things. Unless they are being influenced to do these things, the same as those people are influenced into buying Alex Jones male vitality pills.
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But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.
It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid. You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were. But it's not happening. I don't get it.
Because people think for themselves and these people do not follow or idolize these people like people do with celebrities and youtubers. That's why these people are not convinced by these "influencers" deaths.
If that was true, Alex Jones wouldn't sell millions of dollars worth of "Super Male Vitality" pills a year.
Yeah and people buy questionable crap all the damn time. It's the point of Steven Wilson making Personal Shopper. Consumerism works and Alex Jones is proof that if you are vocal and have a presence you will get people to listen to you. Anything else people do of their own choice. Alex Jones is not forcing people to buy his male enhancement crap. People who can't get it up are the ones buying his crap.
Just look at how many women read certain books because it's featured and has an Oprah sticker on the cover. How many people buy things on TV, and how many people follow trends on social media, such as the tide pod challenge or the milk crate challenge.
People choose to do these things. Unless they are being influenced to do these things, the same as those people are influenced into buying Alex Jones male vitality pills.
So which is it?
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So the Florida mask ban gets struck down by a judge. What does their Grim Reaper Governor do? Withholds funds from 2 school districts that defied him.
This authoritarian stance makes me TERRIFIED! (poking Stadler with that last bit :biggrin:)
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But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.
It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid. You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were. But it's not happening. I don't get it.
Because people think for themselves and these people do not follow or idolize these people like people do with celebrities and youtubers. That's why these people are not convinced by these "influencers" deaths.
If that was true, Alex Jones wouldn't sell millions of dollars worth of "Super Male Vitality" pills a year.
Yeah and people buy questionable crap all the damn time. It's the point of Steven Wilson making Personal Shopper. Consumerism works and Alex Jones is proof that if you are vocal and have a presence you will get people to listen to you. Anything else people do of their own choice. Alex Jones is not forcing people to buy his male enhancement crap. People who can't get it up are the ones buying his crap.
Just look at how many women read certain books because it's featured and has an Oprah sticker on the cover. How many people buy things on TV, and how many people follow trends on social media, such as the tide pod challenge or the milk crate challenge.
People choose to do these things. Unless they are being influenced to do these things, the same as those people are influenced into buying Alex Jones male vitality pills.
So which is it?
I wouldn't know. I'm not the one claiming these people are "anti-vaxxers" and only believe what they hear and see on social media...
I claim that everyone does this with regards to doing what is on the TV or Social Media. People will do what is told of them on the TV or Social Media without thinking for themselves.
So the Florida mask ban gets struck down by a judge. What does their Grim Reaper Governor do? Withholds funds from 2 school districts that defied him.
This authoritarian stance makes me TERRIFIED! (poking Stadler with that last bit :biggrin:)
It's because this works both ways. You can't let one get away with authoritarian regulations and then condemn the other for doing the same exact thing.
There's two boots in a pair.
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I'm not sure how to make my point any clearer, but something is clearly getting lost in translation about "wants". I don't know how else to state it, so I won't try any further.
Regarless, if you're going to draw even the slightest comparison of the outcomes of COVID to the outcomes of 'pounding diet soda or smoking', then you've permanently lost me. As EB and many others have pointed out, those are PERSONAL decisions, with individual and personal ramifications, and does not have the potential of directly impacting my health.
And where the fuck does AOC (it's just easier to type it that way) come into this? Serious statement this time, don't make this political. Take those arguments to the Politics of Coronavirus thread.
We see things very differently. You seem to believe that it's reasonable for people to act in a manner that shows a complete disregard of any concern for PUBLIC health. I don't think it's unreasonable for people take steps to safeguard public health. We'll agree to disagree.
I yield, counsellor.
Whether you or I CAN (possibly) get this virus isn't the primary driver for me. I can get hit by a bus or drop from a major coronary tomorrow and I'm not going to see it coming. I am doing everything I can to protect myself; I can't change you or you or you, I can't make you do everything I want you to, so I accept there are no guarantees in this life other than Cam is going to dance and we're all going to die at some point. I rate "potential dying" pretty high on the list of priorities, but I also rate "personal autonomy" pretty high as well. It's a balance.
I'll put this as bluntly as I can:
You see the data, you see these people willfully and knowing flouting that data and drawing an erroneous conclusion, with significant consequences for you. You deride and marginalize them. Fair enough description?
I see the data regarding our divisiveness (I have put several links up here repeatedly, showing the current research on how it starts, why it starts, how we stop it), I see people willfully and knowingly flouting that data - here, using "COVIDIOTS" and "morons" and whatever - and drawing an erroneous conclusion - that it has no impact on why these people are being stubborn mules - with significant consequences for all of us - not only are they not vaccinated, but they are militantly so, AND they are a piece of the divisiveness that is crippling this country (look at Dave's post about Afghanistan a week or so ago).
I'm not asking you to agree with me (though I hope you do). I'm asking you see how this looks and acknowledge at least that if you get to ignore the science, so do they. OR, at bare minimum, acknowledge the hypocrisy in the position and acknowledge that for better or worse this is just a playground fist fight and we're just picking different ways of circling the drain.
(I brought up Ocasio-Cortez because I thought it would be a clear enough example without bringing specific people in this forum into play. Whether you rate "COVID" higher than her economic or other impacts or not, that's up to you. I consider our divisiveness to be as great or even a greater threat than COVID, and so I DO see it as harmful to all of us (I also consider a lot of her general politics, and her approach to those politics, to be part of the reason we got Trump, and I think we all agree he was dangerous).)
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And here it is, Covid at my son's school. Took less than 2 weeks for the whole district to have it in all the schools. Now we are waiting to see if he is affected. He's got the Pfizer in him, but still, this sucks.
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I'm bummed for the stress you're going through dude. Hang in there!
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While most bands are just cancelling the tour for testing positive. Jonathan Davis tests positive and then continues to perform while suffering from lingering effects.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/music/news/korn-singer-jonathan-davis-still-struggling-with-lingering-covid-symptoms-sits-on-throne-during-show/ar-AANW6If
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That seems decidedly unhealthy.
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While most bands are just cancelling the tour for testing positive. Jonathan Davis tests positive and then continues to perform while suffering from lingering effects.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/music/news/korn-singer-jonathan-davis-still-struggling-with-lingering-covid-symptoms-sits-on-throne-during-show/ar-AANW6If
He continues to perform while having lingering symptoms, but the way you typed it made it seem like he just tested positive and kept going. They did cancel/postpone shows a couple of weeks back because at that point he was positive.
Anyways, I wish him the best, but long term complications due to covid can be a real bitch, so it seems wiser to try and heal for a bit. Some people are not the same afterwards.
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@ Bill's post ...
Look, in some regards you're absolutely right. The outcome that most people want is to minimize or eliminate the risks of catching this. How is that accomplished... vaccinations are ONE (the?) major tool in achieving that. Getting those that are militantly opposed to take that step isn't working with the tactics that have been used for the past 18 months. As Dr. Phil would say "how's that working for you?" So you're right, deriding and marginalizing ain't working.
But at this point, as many others have said, I have very little sympathy for "them". It's been 18+ months, and most that are anti-vax have been anti-everything related to COVID - ranging from 'hoax', to global conspiracy, to governmental fascism, to 'no big deal', to anti-mask / anti-lockdown / anti-distancing, to yada yada yada. Some (many?) of claims that are often made are often ludicrous, and usually preposterous. I will struggle to have any real sympathy for "them", and yes, I can and will be pissed because it is their actions that is the major contributor that is prolonging the damage to society, and impacting far too many people who ARE taking the steps that are necessary (not by my standards, by public health experts' standards) and reasonable (by virtue of the majority taking these steps - not *my* definition - lest you think this is about what *I* want again).
Slightly changing lanes, I thought of it this way last night ... we've all heard/read stories and interviews over the last 18 months (usually recounted by Doctors and loved ones) expressing extreme regret and/or sorrow around patients / loved ones not taking the vaccine, or that they went to a crowded gathering, or that they never masked up. I've yet to read a story of someone regretting that they did take the vax, or they did wear a mask, or that they have avoided crowded gatherings.
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After trying everything to contain this virus for the last 18 months or so, the Norwegian government have decided covid is not dangerous to children at all and lifted most restrictions. As a result the virus is spreading like a wildfire across schools all over the country and we're seeing daily record number infections.
We're about 60 % fully vaccinated for 18+. We've just started vaccinating 16-17 year olds. Whether we'll vaccinate 12-15 is yet to be decided. With this rate it's no use, they'll all have caught the virus in a month anyway.
I just don't understand what the *censored* is going on.
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I just love how governments can dictate science...
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To be fair, the government takes advice from the public health authorities and act accordingly. It's still a head scratcher, though.
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This thirty year old who was in pretty good health has died.
https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/08/texas-anti-mask-freedom-defender-dies-of-covid-at-age-30.html
A Texas man who led a group of “Freedom Defenders” against mask restrictions died of COVID-19 on Saturday at age 30.
Caleb Wallace left behind three children and a pregnant wife.
His wife, Jessica, announced her husband’s death on a GoFundMe page that had detailed his fight with COVID-19 the past few weeks.
“Caleb has peacefully passed on. He will forever live in our hearts and minds,” she wrote.
Wallace had been unconscious since Aug. 8, The San Angelo Standard-Times reported.
Wallace helped organize “The Freedom Rally” on July 4, 2020 — a gathering described in a flier as a peaceful protest by people “sick of the government being in control of our lives,” the Standard-Times reported.
He also founded “The San Angelo Freedom Defenders,” a group “to educate and empower citizens to make informed choices concerning local, statewide, and national policy and to encourage them to actively participate in their duty to secure God-given and constitutionally protected rights,” the group’s Facebook page stated.
Jessica Wallace said her husband got sick in late July, but “was so hard-headed.”
“He didn’t want to see a doctor, because he didn’t want to be part of the statistics with COVID tests,” she said.
He then tried unproven ivermectin — a livestock dewormer that has been denounced by the FDA — high doses of vitamin C, zinc aspirin and an inhaler, the Standard-Times reported.
Jessica Wallace told the newspaper she didn’t always share her husband’s views and that she wears a mask.
Pride is a hell of a drug. This dude left behind a wife and three daughters (and an unborn) because going to a doctor would be conceding he was wrong. He'd become one of the statistics that all of those evil scientists, doctors, and disease experts have been warning us about. It would mean everyone who convinced him to think as he did was wrong and that he was taken. The thought of admitting he was bamboozled and maybe not dying was worse to him than being unconscious for three weeks and ultimately leaving his family behind.
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Their all a bunch of Fonzie's and can't admit when they are wrong.
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You know, I'm starting to think that there is a global cabal of governors/governments that are hell bent on depopulation.
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See that Marvel movies were a bad influence!
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Jingle pretty much said what I would say.
And.
to the point about government "dictating science".....I believe there some truth to that statement...and the same about science and global warming. ALL levels of government (lets say fed\prov\municipal and fed\state\local) are all going by what they are being told by doctors and scientists. My personal opinion is that these doctors and scientists are also in a high state of flux on Covid. Info changes rapidly.
where I part ways with people who are dead set against being told what to do...and lets face it, that's really all it is.....this virus is not fake...it does not care what political leaning you subscribe to....it doesn't care that your brother went to Korea, or your father went to Nam and fought for your right to say no to a vaccine. It's gonna infect you regardless. If you're double vaccinated your chances of living through an infection are greatly improved--that's how vaccine's have worked since they were created. What is further frustrating to witness is how effective one president was at motivating his followers to get vaccinated, but as soon as he's gone it's a hoax of a virus and the vaccines are ineffective is suddenly a narrative. The virus -ALL viruses- don't care what you think. Is your contrarian attitude really a hill you're prepared to die on? Along with potentially your family?
I took the first vaccine offered. Astra Zeneca. Which my 18 year old loves to call "astra cloteca" and then listened to my government and scientists who said mixing the vaccines was a good idea and got a moderna second. But now....I can't travel. Because many countries don't recognize the first vaccine as being good AND\OR don't recognize mixing the vaccines as being sufficient.
Do what you want.
Accept the consequences.
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See that Marvel movies were a bad influence!
No, they were just bad movies.
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See that Marvel movies were a bad influence!
No, they were just bad movies.
That's the concussion talking Tim.
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See that Marvel movies were a bad influence!
No, they were just bad movies.
Don't get me started :lol (I agree from what I've watched)
To be fair, the government takes advice from the public health authorities and act accordingly. It's still a head scratcher, though.
I brought this idea up of purposely exposing children to covid a couple weeks ago as an idea. I got this idea because my pediatrician dr friend has been saying he thinks this is a good idea because 99.9999% of the kids will be fine and that's worth it to get them back in classrooms to learn and grow. I still don't know if I agree with that, but without having kids, this is not my battle. I think it's interesting to see a government go this way though.
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This thirty year old who was in pretty good health has died.
https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/08/texas-anti-mask-freedom-defender-dies-of-covid-at-age-30.html
A Texas man who led a group of “Freedom Defenders” against mask restrictions died of COVID-19 on Saturday at age 30.
Caleb Wallace left behind three children and a pregnant wife.
His wife, Jessica, announced her husband’s death on a GoFundMe page that had detailed his fight with COVID-19 the past few weeks.
“Caleb has peacefully passed on. He will forever live in our hearts and minds,” she wrote.
Wallace had been unconscious since Aug. 8, The San Angelo Standard-Times reported.
Wallace helped organize “The Freedom Rally” on July 4, 2020 — a gathering described in a flier as a peaceful protest by people “sick of the government being in control of our lives,” the Standard-Times reported.
He also founded “The San Angelo Freedom Defenders,” a group “to educate and empower citizens to make informed choices concerning local, statewide, and national policy and to encourage them to actively participate in their duty to secure God-given and constitutionally protected rights,” the group’s Facebook page stated.
Jessica Wallace said her husband got sick in late July, but “was so hard-headed.”
“He didn’t want to see a doctor, because he didn’t want to be part of the statistics with COVID tests,” she said.
He then tried unproven ivermectin — a livestock dewormer that has been denounced by the FDA — high doses of vitamin C, zinc aspirin and an inhaler, the Standard-Times reported.
Jessica Wallace told the newspaper she didn’t always share her husband’s views and that she wears a mask.
Pride is a hell of a drug. This dude left behind a wife and three daughters (and an unborn) because going to a doctor would be conceding he was wrong. He'd become one of the statistics that all of those evil scientists, doctors, and disease experts have been warning us about. It would mean everyone who convinced him to think as he did was wrong and that he was taken. The thought of admitting he was bamboozled and maybe not dying was worse to him than being unconscious for three weeks and ultimately leaving his family behind.
Yeah well. Give his hospital bed to somebody who deserves it.
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and...you cant even say that to these people. You can't shame them. Mock them. It hasn't worked. You have actual nurses in southern states, IN HOSPITALS, telling people on respirators not to get vaccinated. You have people, with their dying breath "from my cold dead hands--this thing isn't real"...…..alone..without family around them.
Well...what just killed you? Chinese Five G Flu? Equine worms? Some Biden Pelossi conspiracy?
again.
Make your choice.
Accept the consequences.
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I'm not sure how to make my point any clearer, but something is clearly getting lost in translation about "wants". I don't know how else to state it, so I won't try any further.
Regarless, if you're going to draw even the slightest comparison of the outcomes of COVID to the outcomes of 'pounding diet soda or smoking', then you've permanently lost me. As EB and many others have pointed out, those are PERSONAL decisions, with individual and personal ramifications, and does not have the potential of directly impacting my health.
And where the fuck does AOC (it's just easier to type it that way) come into this? Serious statement this time, don't make this political. Take those arguments to the Politics of Coronavirus thread.
We see things very differently. You seem to believe that it's reasonable for people to act in a manner that shows a complete disregard of any concern for PUBLIC health. I don't think it's unreasonable for people take steps to safeguard public health. We'll agree to disagree.
I yield, counsellor.
Whether you or I CAN (possibly) get this virus isn't the primary driver for me. I can get hit by a bus or drop from a major coronary tomorrow and I'm not going to see it coming. I am doing everything I can to protect myself; I can't change you or you or you, I can't make you do everything I want you to, so I accept there are no guarantees in this life other than Cam is going to dance and we're all going to die at some point. I rate "potential dying" pretty high on the list of priorities, but I also rate "personal autonomy" pretty high as well. It's a balance.
I'll put this as bluntly as I can:
You see the data, you see these people willfully and knowing flouting that data and drawing an erroneous conclusion, with significant consequences for you. You deride and marginalize them. Fair enough description?
I see the data regarding our divisiveness (I have put several links up here repeatedly, showing the current research on how it starts, why it starts, how we stop it), I see people willfully and knowingly flouting that data - here, using "COVIDIOTS" and "morons" and whatever - and drawing an erroneous conclusion - that it has no impact on why these people are being stubborn mules - with significant consequences for all of us - not only are they not vaccinated, but they are militantly so, AND they are a piece of the divisiveness that is crippling this country (look at Dave's post about Afghanistan a week or so ago).
I'm not asking you to agree with me (though I hope you do). I'm asking you see how this looks and acknowledge at least that if you get to ignore the science, so do they. OR, at bare minimum, acknowledge the hypocrisy in the position and acknowledge that for better or worse this is just a playground fist fight and we're just picking different ways of circling the drain.
(I brought up Ocasio-Cortez because I thought it would be a clear enough example without bringing specific people in this forum into play. Whether you rate "COVID" higher than her economic or other impacts or not, that's up to you. I consider our divisiveness to be as great or even a greater threat than COVID, and so I DO see it as harmful to all of us (I also consider a lot of her general politics, and her approach to those politics, to be part of the reason we got Trump, and I think we all agree he was dangerous).)
You're so spot on with much of this, and I really wish deep down I could go through life with this exact mindset. But then I see people like this and struggle to find words other than "idiot" and "moron":
(https://preview.redd.it/0h2m0qdsbvk71.png?width=602&auto=webp&s=c7e706aa631336abbdca5dfd2537486e21455b33)
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It amazes me the hoops people will go through to avoid the shot whether it be faking the CDC card or eating horse dewormer. It's insanity/stupidity. I guess this is darwinism at work, but really, it boggles my mind.
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The Canadian border is stopping THOUSANDS of those blank fake cards daily coming in from all places in the mail labelled as other things to get through customs.
And yes a coronary or buss could kill you tomorrow. Public Health and Public Good comes from......to take the buss analogy a step further....you redirecting six other busses at other people after getting hit yourself. Had you just bought a buss pass and stood on the sidewalk, everyone would have had a much better chance at living.
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Anyone else catch that, under medical professional, it lists "NRA cpl Wolf" and "NRA Ssgt Money?" smh
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Kid went back to in person school for the first time since March 2020 today (middle school) and we’re just waiting for what may occur. Our area is spiking pretty good right now so we’re thankful he’s fully vaccinated.
Our school district board was flipped from a fairly balanced ideology on Covid to a more ‘Covid isn’t a big deal’ after an election last spring. It’s gotten so bad one board member was tired of being ignored on safety protocols that she put her name on the list for the public to speak at one meeting just so she could voice her concerns.
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Anyone else catch that, under medical professional, it lists "NRA cpl Wolf" and "NRA Ssgt Money?" smh
Who both have identical handwriting. At least write the other one left handed, or get a buddy to write it or something. And use a different pen for entries that should be a month apart. At the same time, if she weren't a fucking moron she wouldn't be trying to do this in the first place.
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Anyone else catch that, under medical professional, it lists "NRA cpl Wolf" and "NRA Ssgt Money?" smh
Who both have identical handwriting. At least write the other one left handed, or get a buddy to write it or something. And use a different pen for entries that should be a month apart. At the same time, if she weren't a fucking moron she wouldn't be trying to do this in the first place.
Further proof that casual criminals are usually the dumbest criminals.
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Anyone else catch that, under medical professional, it lists "NRA cpl Wolf" and "NRA Ssgt Money?" smh
Who both have identical handwriting. At least write the other one left handed, or get a buddy to write it or something. And use a different pen for entries that should be a month apart. At the same time, if she weren't a fucking moron she wouldn't be trying to do this in the first place.
She left "Patient Number" completely blank :lol
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This illustrates something that's bothered me for a while on these vaccination cards. Everything on my card is handwritten by me as I was instructed to do. My patient number is blank because I wasn't given one. I could have easily misspelled Moderna or Pfizer as I've never written those words in my life. There is no way I could conceivably prove my vaccination card is 100% legit any more than anyone else could prove that it is not.
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This illustrates something that's bothered me for a while on these vaccination cards. Everything on my card is handwritten by me as I was instructed to do. My patient number is blank because I wasn't given one. I could have easily misspelled Moderna or Pfizer as I've never written those words in my life. There is no way I could conceivably prove my vaccination card is 100% legit any more than anyone else could prove that it is not.
That's crazy. Mine was handed to me with the patient number already filled out, and the Product Name/Manufacturer section for both doses were filled out by a printed sticker on the spot. That info, the date administered, and the batch number were not written by hand either.
(https://i.imgur.com/PlDy7AE.jpeg)
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I went to a mass vaccination site set up by the county and assume that was the best way to get thousands of people through expeditiously.
I just looked at it again. The first dosage information was written by a staffer.
I think there is more to the story of that gal going to hawaii. I went there a couple months ago and no all the hoops you have to jump through to do so. I'm not sure what I would have done if I was flagged for my card looking suspicious.
And realistically what is it about yours that makes it 100% undeniably official? You could have printed out those labels yourself.
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This illustrates something that's bothered me for a while on these vaccination cards. Everything on my card is handwritten by me as I was instructed to do. My patient number is blank because I wasn't given one. I could have easily misspelled Moderna or Pfizer as I've never written those words in my life. There is no way I could conceivably prove my vaccination card is 100% legit any more than anyone else could prove that it is not.
I am honestly surprised we are still relying on the vaccine card as proof of vaccination given how different they are filled out based on location, making them unreliable and difficult to prove their authenticity.
Mine also does not have a patient number, but on the Doses slot, it has a sticker with the information required (not hand written) similar to Chino's.
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Interesting. So did I. The "Oakdale" was repurposed to be a mass vaccination site. They did it in the lobby of the venue (sometimes used for small, standing only shows)
(https://www.myrecordjournal.com/getattachment/32df6913-7c18-4f81-827e-1983c91d83d3/WalRawArtGallery-RJ-072018-ph16)
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Mine also does not have a patient number, but on the Doses slot, it has a sticker with the information required (not hand written) similar to Chino's.
Same, and my name/birthday is hand written (extremely poorly) by myself.
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I went to a mass vaccination site set up by the county and assume that was the best way to get thousands of people through expeditiously.
I just looked at it again. The first dosage information was written by a staffer.
I think there is more to the story of that gal going to hawaii. I went there a couple months ago and no all the hoops you have to jump through to do so. I'm not sure what I would have done if I was flagged for my card looking suspicious.
And realistically what is it about yours that makes it 100% undeniably official? You could have printed out those labels yourself.
You'd be able to reasonably explain when and where you were vaccinated. I guarantee that as soon as this dipshit was confronted she started screaming about freedom from tyranny and genetic experimentation. :lol
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Mine also does not have a patient number, but on the Doses slot, it has a sticker with the information required (not hand written) similar to Chino's.
Same, and my name/birthday is hand written (extremely poorly) by myself.
I'm shocked they allowed that. When I went, I had to hand the nurse my driver's license and she used that to fill out my info. She handed me the vaccination card, and before giving me my license back said "please confirm that the info on your card is correct". I figured that was a security measure to prevent me from getting a vaccine and just putting down the name of someone I know who may not have wanted to get one.
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This is why I am for a central database that is accessed with a phone app or something for those that don't have a smart phone. It would greatly reduce forgeries. I wonder if they will test this dipshit for COVID?
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Mine also does not have a patient number, but on the Doses slot, it has a sticker with the information required (not hand written) similar to Chino's.
Same, and my name/birthday is hand written (extremely poorly) by myself.
I'm shocked they allowed that. When I went, I had to hand the nurse my driver's license and she used that to fill out my info. She handed me the vaccination card, and before giving me my license back said "please confirm that the info on your card is correct". I figured that was a security measure to prevent me from getting a vaccine and just putting down the name of someone I know who may not have wanted to get one.
I went to a mass vax site and there was like no checks at all. I was kind of shocked. But this whole CDC card is kind of BS to begin with. I know getting the shots in arms was more important, but if these cards are going to be our access to do things, it needs to be better.
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This is why I am for a central database that is accessed with a phone app or something for those that don't have a smart phone. It would greatly reduce forgeries. I wonder if they will test this dipshit for COVID?
I don't know how useful it is outside of NY, but we have the "Excelsior pass", which is pretty much a vaccine passport (as some would call it). You download the app, put in your name, DOB and day of your second/last dose and if your information is in the system, and it's been 2 weeks since your second/last dose, it generates a "vaccine pass" for you. But again, I don't know if it would mean anything outside of NY and probably the surrounding states. I heard CA has a similar system but that it has not worked as well.
There should be a similar system for the nation, should not be very difficult to create.
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If there were going to be a unique identifier for vaccine recipients it would have riled up the "FREEDOM!" dipshits even further. I'm pretty sure they were trying to alienate as few people as possible. I also doubt they figured that there would be as many people resistant to the vaccine in the first place. The need to be able to prove your status might not have been on their radar.
I got mine at a CDC mass vaccination site, and my hunch is that they could confirm it if need be. They got my info during my registration, and they scanned a QR code both times. Somebody certainly could have assumed my identity, but at that point I doubt people were trying to scam the system. Remember that until services and places started demanding proof of vaccination these people wanted everybody to know how proudly unvaccinated they were.
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This thirty year old who was in pretty good health has died.
https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/08/texas-anti-mask-freedom-defender-dies-of-covid-at-age-30.html
A Texas man who led a group of “Freedom Defenders” against mask restrictions died of COVID-19 on Saturday at age 30.
Caleb Wallace left behind three children and a pregnant wife.
His wife, Jessica, announced her husband’s death on a GoFundMe page that had detailed his fight with COVID-19 the past few weeks.
“Caleb has peacefully passed on. He will forever live in our hearts and minds,” she wrote.
Wallace had been unconscious since Aug. 8, The San Angelo Standard-Times reported.
Wallace helped organize “The Freedom Rally” on July 4, 2020 — a gathering described in a flier as a peaceful protest by people “sick of the government being in control of our lives,” the Standard-Times reported.
He also founded “The San Angelo Freedom Defenders,” a group “to educate and empower citizens to make informed choices concerning local, statewide, and national policy and to encourage them to actively participate in their duty to secure God-given and constitutionally protected rights,” the group’s Facebook page stated.
Jessica Wallace said her husband got sick in late July, but “was so hard-headed.”
“He didn’t want to see a doctor, because he didn’t want to be part of the statistics with COVID tests,” she said.
He then tried unproven ivermectin — a livestock dewormer that has been denounced by the FDA — high doses of vitamin C, zinc aspirin and an inhaler, the Standard-Times reported.
Jessica Wallace told the newspaper she didn’t always share her husband’s views and that she wears a mask.
Pride is a hell of a drug. This dude left behind a wife and three daughters (and an unborn) because going to a doctor would be conceding he was wrong. He'd become one of the statistics that all of those evil scientists, doctors, and disease experts have been warning us about. It would mean everyone who convinced him to think as he did was wrong and that he was taken. The thought of admitting he was bamboozled and maybe not dying was worse to him than being unconscious for three weeks and ultimately leaving his family behind.
Wait a minute. He didn't go see his doctor. That's the issue I have with this. Would he have went to see his doctor if he had a different type of pain unrelated to Covid? If he's that hard headed and stubborn, I don't think it would matter. And I would place the blame on him being stubborn to not go into the doctor. The issue would then be trust of the doctors to tell him the truth about his body. And if he would even listen to his doctors advice if he did go in.
What he did do though is die for his beliefs, regardless of whether we judge his beliefs as right or wrong.
And this is where I said earlier. If it is bad then natural selection will "SHOW" and prove to us if we are right or wrong, or somewhere in the middle.
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Loving attitudes and encouragement do not work on these people, neither does trying to reason with them or giving them facts or places to get facts.
Actually, you are factually wrong about that and I've posted numerous links to that effect. It DOES work, over time. It's the very marginalization that you all are engaging in that is, in part, encouraging and stimulating the "rebelliousness" (for lack of a better word). I've given links for that as well.
We talk all the time about being people of science, and yet when the science rubs against the grain it seems that all of a sudden not that important. Why do you get to ignore the science, but they don't?
How much time should I give these people? Asking for a friend. Since, you know, we don't have any time due to hospitals filling up right now and all.
Not like its ever happened before (it's sarcasm, but it's meant in good humor), but here's an instance where the IMMEDIATE FEEL GOOD solution doesn't serve the long term goal and vice versa. So we find a way to co-exist. Shoulda, woulda, coulda and all, but if we'd started the inclusion - I mean REAL inclusion, not the fakery that passes for it these days - back when I started talking about it, maybe we wouldn't have to have this conversation, but here we are. So we move forward, and we try to balance the tactical and the strategic as best we can. We have to at least do both, though, because the focus on the immediate is clearly not working IF you're main goal is to keep people alive AND you're not heartless enough to bask in the schadenfreude of people that think different than you do.
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This is why I am for a central database that is accessed with a phone app or something for those that don't have a smart phone. It would greatly reduce forgeries. I wonder if they will test this dipshit for COVID?
I don't know how useful it is outside of NY, but we have the "Excelsior pass", which is pretty much a vaccine passport (as some would call it). You download the app, put in your name, DOB and day of your second/last dose and if your information is in the system, and it's been 2 weeks since your second/last dose, it generates a "vaccine pass" for you. But again, I don't know if it would mean anything outside of NY and probably the surrounding states. I heard CA has a similar system but that it has not worked as well.
There should be a similar system for the nation, should not be very difficult to create.
I looked into the app, because I need to provide proof for the concert in NYC this Friday but that app seems only for NY. Looks like I'm bringing my card with me.
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I folded my vaccine card down the middle because it was the only way to get it into my wallet. I hope that doesn't come back to bite me on the ass.
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I was very pleased with how the county set up the site that I got vaxxed at. And yes I always thought this card was more for my own personal records, not something that I would be called upon to show proof of having been vaccinated.
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Speaking of the card, what about potential boosters. Will it be put down on the same card, it seems to have more slots for more doses on it? What about those who laminated them?
I keep mine in a plastic sandwich ziplock bag. I'll have to wear my cargo shorts to keep it safe in the pocket and where it's unlikely to fall out or get damaged.
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@ Bill's post ...
Look, in some regards you're absolutely right. The outcome that most people want is to minimize or eliminate the risks of catching this. How is that accomplished... vaccinations are ONE (the?) major tool in achieving that. Getting those that are militantly opposed to take that step isn't working with the tactics that have been used for the past 18 months. As Dr. Phil would say "how's that working for you?" So you're right, deriding and marginalizing ain't working.
Honestly, that's a meaningful concession, and I appreciate that. That's in large part where I've been going these last few days. Just acknowledge our role in where we are right now.
But at this point, as many others have said, I have very little sympathy for "them". It's been 18+ months, and most that are anti-vax have been anti-everything related to COVID - ranging from 'hoax', to global conspiracy, to governmental fascism, to 'no big deal', to anti-mask / anti-lockdown / anti-distancing, to yada yada yada. Some (many?) of claims that are often made are often ludicrous, and usually preposterous. I will struggle to have any real sympathy for "them", and yes, I can and will be pissed because it is their actions that is the major contributor that is prolonging the damage to society, and impacting far too many people who ARE taking the steps that are necessary (not by my standards, by public health experts' standards) and reasonable (by virtue of the majority taking these steps - not *my* definition - lest you think this is about what *I* want again).
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I know the feeling every time some politician wants to spend my money to remove guns (against science), or "cancel" student debt, or some other concession to people making bad decisions and me having to bear the brunt of that. So I certainly understand your point, even if I don't share the exact emotion (or don't respond the same way).
Slightly changing lanes, I thought of it this way last night ... we've all heard/read stories and interviews over the last 18 months (usually recounted by Doctors and loved ones) expressing extreme regret and/or sorrow around patients / loved ones not taking the vaccine, or that they went to a crowded gathering, or that they never masked up. I've yet to read a story of someone regretting that they did take the vax, or they did wear a mask, or that they have avoided crowded gatherings.
Just so you know I'm not taking advantage, you can look back and find it, but I wrote about such a person not two days ago. "Regret" isn't the right word, necessarily, but "live in fear" is.
I also think the reaction is different; it might not be "regret" per se, but there is some literature on the adverse effects of all this "doing the right thing":
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30460-8/fulltext
https://www.dovepress.com/psychological-impact-of-covid-19-isolation-and-quarantine-a-cross-sect-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-NDT
There are others that I don't have time to read through at the moment.
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To be fair, the government takes advice from the public health authorities and act accordingly. It's still a head scratcher, though.
I brought this idea up of purposely exposing children to covid a couple weeks ago as an idea. I got this idea because my pediatrician dr friend has been saying he thinks this is a good idea because 99.9999% of the kids will be fine and that's worth it to get them back in classrooms to learn and grow. I still don't know if I agree with that, but without having kids, this is not my battle. I think it's interesting to see a government go this way though.
Look at the Israeli study that was posted here by me and someone else. LONG TERM, in terms of levels of immunity ONLY, that is potentially one option. The downside is the immediate - people WILL get sick and people WILL die - and the moral - people WILL get sick and people WILL die. If you're of the "even one death is too many" mindset, this is likely unacceptable. But long term, this has the potential to build our collective immunity to the point where the comparisons to the common cold won't be so triggering.
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To be fair, the government takes advice from the public health authorities and act accordingly. It's still a head scratcher, though.
I brought this idea up of purposely exposing children to covid a couple weeks ago as an idea. I got this idea because my pediatrician dr friend has been saying he thinks this is a good idea because 99.9999% of the kids will be fine and that's worth it to get them back in classrooms to learn and grow. I still don't know if I agree with that, but without having kids, this is not my battle. I think it's interesting to see a government go this way though.
Look at the Israeli study that was posted here by me and someone else. LONG TERM, in terms of levels of immunity ONLY, that is potentially one option. The downside is the immediate - people WILL get sick and people WILL die - and the moral - people WILL get sick and people WILL die. If you're of the "even one death is too many" mindset, this is likely unacceptable. But long term, this has the potential to build our collective immunity to the point where the comparisons to the common cold won't be so triggering.
Or create conditions for a mutation to something far worse, right?
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To be fair, the government takes advice from the public health authorities and act accordingly. It's still a head scratcher, though.
I brought this idea up of purposely exposing children to covid a couple weeks ago as an idea. I got this idea because my pediatrician dr friend has been saying he thinks this is a good idea because 99.9999% of the kids will be fine and that's worth it to get them back in classrooms to learn and grow. I still don't know if I agree with that, but without having kids, this is not my battle. I think it's interesting to see a government go this way though.
Look at the Israeli study that was posted here by me and someone else. LONG TERM, in terms of levels of immunity ONLY, that is potentially one option. The downside is the immediate - people WILL get sick and people WILL die - and the moral - people WILL get sick and people WILL die. If you're of the "even one death is too many" mindset, this is likely unacceptable. But long term, this has the potential to build our collective immunity to the point where the comparisons to the common cold won't be so triggering.
Or create conditions for a mutation to something far worse, right?
Well, that's always a risk; with the levels of vaccination across the world being what they are (i.e. low) I imagine the time difference isn't as great as it might be when looking at a smaller subsection of the planet. Either way it's ALWAYS going to be a risk; the vaccine doesn't wipe out the virus.
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I'm not sure I like the idea of purposely infecting people, but I also believe everyone's going to get infected at some point. I'm not sure it's the best way to go, I'd be interested to see how it plays out in Norway. It could set an example what not to do or what to do going forward.
Regardless, with the schools opening back up in the US, we basically are kind of doing it anyway.
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Just so you know I'm not taking advantage, you can look back and find it, but I wrote about such a person not two days ago. "Regret" isn't the right word, necessarily, but "live in fear" is.
I also think the reaction is different; it might not be "regret" per se, but there is some literature on the adverse effects of all this "doing the right thing":
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30460-8/fulltext
https://www.dovepress.com/psychological-impact-of-covid-19-isolation-and-quarantine-a-cross-sect-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-NDT
There are others that I don't have time to read through at the moment.
And whether we like it or not. That science and data shows us that there is psychological (mental health) affects that are happening because of the decision and choice we humans made to lockdown and shut the world down. Those "psychological impacts of covid-19 isolation and quarantine" are the consequences for our decision and choice as humans to shut down our current system in which we operate.
Now that makes me wonder...Can a mental health issue be considered for vaccine exemption if it is shown to be affecting that persons mental health? This also can apply to future vaccinations if the person ended up getting mental health issues because of their "regrets" for the coercion that made them have to decide to get the vaccination.
So, who determines and has the final say to what one can do with one's own body? And what if you are coerced into doing things where you now suddenly have a grudge or a sort of vent up anger because you were required and coerced into a decision you did not willfully make?
Make your choice.
Accept the consequences.
So are we going to accept this consequence of our choice. Or are we going to downplay it and disregard it completely for some supposed virtue of "doing the right thing".
Just look at how the "vaccine passport" is being handled. And it's a complete mess, and there is so much that still needs to be done to consider it actually full-proof against fraud.
Apps are fine, but what will happen if the government dictates that boosters are mandatory as well, and are required to be considered "Fully Vaccinated" and that app denies entry if you do not have the boosters.
What I am waiting on, since our state is having their state fair still, and they are requiring proof of vaccination for entry and even hired employees whose job is to specifically check vaccination cards for accuracy and any sign of forgery (whatever that means) is to see if there are any cases. Now, if there are any cases that do develop or if anyone tests positive, then who is to blame for creating the spread if the unvaccinated are therefore eliminated by denying them entry all together, so they're out of the equation? Will people start to question the validity of the workers who were checking the vaccine passports? Would the workers then be blamed for not being spot on with identifying what is considered a "valid vaccination card" and allowing contaminated people into the venue?
This is why I do not understand why these places are also not requiring negative covid-19 tests if they're so concerned about the spread.
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I'm not sure I like the idea of purposely infecting people, but I also believe everyone's going to get infected at some point. I'm not sure it's the best way to go, I'd be interested to see how it plays out in Norway. It could set an example what not to do or what to do going forward.
Regardless, with the schools opening back up in the US, we basically are kind of doing it anyway.
I definitely do NOT like the idea of purposefully infecting anyone; that's just playing with fire if you ask me. And I'm not personally going to sit around and wait for nature to take it's course. I'm vaccinated and I wear a mask in most instances. But it's important to keep in mind that every COVIDIOT that doesn't die, is, in the same way that a broken clock is right twice a day, moving us inexorably closer to an optimal immunity position.
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I'm not sure I like the idea of purposely infecting people, but I also believe everyone's going to get infected at some point. I'm not sure it's the best way to go, I'd be interested to see how it plays out in Norway. It could set an example what not to do or what to do going forward.
Regardless, with the schools opening back up in the US, we basically are kind of doing it anyway.
Of course you don't purposely infect people and host infection parties. Unless, that person does want to and willfully attends one, then I don't see why not.
What you do is let it happen naturally by letting humans live life as intended. Meaning, letting life go on and letting humans continue living life as they were before this entire pandemic happened. Letting the natural processes of humans continue to operate. It's how us humans have developed our natural immunity throughout the centuries.
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I'm not sure I like the idea of purposely infecting people, but I also believe everyone's going to get infected at some point. I'm not sure it's the best way to go, I'd be interested to see how it plays out in Norway. It could set an example what not to do or what to do going forward.
Regardless, with the schools opening back up in the US, we basically are kind of doing it anyway.
I definitely do NOT like the idea of purposefully infecting anyone; that's just playing with fire if you ask me. And I'm not personally going to sit around and wait for nature to take it's course. I'm vaccinated and I wear a mask in most instances. But it's important to keep in mind that every COVIDIOT that doesn't die, is, in the same way that a broken clock is right twice a day, moving us inexorably closer to an optimal immunity position.
Acquired immunity from the virus and the vaccine aren't the same, though. Data suggest they target different parts of the virus, and that the mRNA vaccines will attack a broader range of mutations. Just because you fight off delta on your own doesn't mean you'll fight of lambda. The vaccine doesn't either, but it's mechanism does make it more likely. I'd say the covidiots are just pressing snooze on their broken clocks.
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I'm not sure I like the idea of purposely infecting people, but I also believe everyone's going to get infected at some point. I'm not sure it's the best way to go, I'd be interested to see how it plays out in Norway. It could set an example what not to do or what to do going forward.
Regardless, with the schools opening back up in the US, we basically are kind of doing it anyway.
I definitely do NOT like the idea of purposefully infecting anyone; that's just playing with fire if you ask me. And I'm not personally going to sit around and wait for nature to take it's course. I'm vaccinated and I wear a mask in most instances. But it's important to keep in mind that every COVIDIOT that doesn't die, is, in the same way that a broken clock is right twice a day, moving us inexorably closer to an optimal immunity position.
Acquired immunity from the virus and the vaccine aren't the same, though. Data suggest they target different parts of the virus, and that the mRNA vaccines will attack a broader range of mutations. Just because you fight off delta on your own doesn't mean you'll fight of lambda. The vaccine doesn't either, but it's mechanism does make it more likely. I'd say the covidiots are just pressing snooze on their broken clocks.
Wasn't the vaccine supposedly protecting against future mutations a key selling point for taking the vaccines? And now that was proven to not be as accurate as they had hoped and now Boosters are required. Who is to say the Lambda variant, or Omega Moo, won't be like the delta variant and bypass the vaccines?
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Boosters so far are not required. And vaccines do fend off mutations because it leads to a smaller viral load / infection. So it helps immensely, and still does.
Although I see so much conflicting information as to whether a natural infection is better or worse for long term immunity vs. the vaccines. Either way, you get some protection for some time.
Also, I probably shouldn't of used the word "purposely" before as sending kids to school is not purposely giving them the virus.
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Boosters so far are not required. And vaccines do fend off mutations because it leads to a smaller viral load / infection. So it helps immensely, and still does.
Although I see so much conflicting information as to whether a natural infection is better or worse for long term immunity vs. the vaccines. Either way, you get some protection for some time.
Also, I probably shouldn't of used the word "purposely" before as sending kids to school is not purposely giving them the virus.
Yeah, sending kids to school is not purposely giving them the virus I would think.
Now, if someone were to send their sick child to school, or a teacher/administrator were to show up to work sick, then maybe that could be considered "giving them" the virus. But you'd have to require testing in order to determine who is sick and who is not, and then this would bring back temperature checks as these tests are still not reliable due to false negatives that could potentially occur.
So we're left with what we have is sending kids to school and hoping for the best or closing them down again and doing online learning, and everyone would just be gleefully glad to go back to online learning.
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I'm not sure I like the idea of purposely infecting people, but I also believe everyone's going to get infected at some point. I'm not sure it's the best way to go, I'd be interested to see how it plays out in Norway. It could set an example what not to do or what to do going forward.
Regardless, with the schools opening back up in the US, we basically are kind of doing it anyway.
I definitely do NOT like the idea of purposefully infecting anyone; that's just playing with fire if you ask me. And I'm not personally going to sit around and wait for nature to take it's course. I'm vaccinated and I wear a mask in most instances. But it's important to keep in mind that every COVIDIOT that doesn't die, is, in the same way that a broken clock is right twice a day, moving us inexorably closer to an optimal immunity position.
Acquired immunity from the virus and the vaccine aren't the same, though. Data suggest they target different parts of the virus, and that the mRNA vaccines will attack a broader range of mutations. Just because you fight off delta on your own doesn't mean you'll fight of lambda. The vaccine doesn't either, but it's mechanism does make it more likely. I'd say the covidiots are just pressing snooze on their broken clocks.
Wasn't the vaccine supposedly protecting against future mutations a key selling point for taking the vaccines? And now that was proven to not be as accurate as they had hoped and now Boosters are required. Who is to say the Lambda variant, or Omega Moo, won't be like the delta variant and bypass the vaccines?
The boosters are because of waning immunity and not because of new variants. Natural immunity also seems to wane, BTW. As for the vaccine protecting against future mutations, it should. Simply put, it attacks a more generalized component of the virus, rather than a very specific form as the body's own immune system does. It's like picking off all Toyota brand cars, rather than just the bright red 4runners, like the one that ran over you last month. Here is a paper on the nuts and bolts, if you're interested. https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/
Also, delta doesn't bypass the vaccines. The fact that delta is the dominant strain and the unvaccinated are dropping dead at a far great rate should pretty much cover that.
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Our public health authorities published a report today, with some grim estimates for the coming weeks and months. An increasing amount of doctors are raising their concerns in the media. The prime minister has announced a press conference tomorrow, it'll be interesting to hear what will be the plan going forward.
I think the initial plan was to just let the pandemic play out over the coming weeks / months while we vaccinate as many as possible, the estimates have said we would be at 90% coverage (adults only) by the end of September. But this thing is simply spreading too fast, the health authorities were quoted today saying they did not anticipate today's situation.
After a year and a half I am really disappointed we are still in this mess of a situation. And now I hear there's another mutant on the horizon, a Columbian variant or something. Will this ever end.
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From the NY times daily e-mail (no link since its an email, sorry)
Since the pandemic began, Covid has often followed a regular — if mysterious — cycle. In one country after another, the number of new cases has often surged for roughly two months before starting to fall. The Delta variant, despite its intense contagiousness, has followed this pattern.
After Delta took hold last winter in India, caseloads there rose sharply for slightly more than two months before plummeting at a nearly identical rate. In Britain, caseloads rose for almost exactly two months before peaking in July. In Indonesia, Thailand, France, Spain and several other countries, the Delta surge also lasted somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5 months.
And in the U.S. states where Delta first caused caseloads to rise, the cycle already appears to be on its downside. Case numbers in Arkansas, Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi and Missouri peaked in early or mid-August and have since been falling
I've been saying for the last month or so that we should plateau eventually. It just seems these waves are going to be the norm for awhile. Even the CEO of my company stated this recently. It's going to be the way of life for awhile until we get more people vaccinated. The positive of all this and proof the vaccines work, is that even though cases are high, death are not at the level they once were. And the stats show the deaths are almost all unvaccinated. Get the vaccine if you haven't yet.
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Our public health authorities published a report today, with some grim estimates for the coming weeks and months. An increasing amount of doctors are raising their concerns in the media. The prime minister has announced a press conference tomorrow, it'll be interesting to hear what will be the plan going forward.
I think the initial plan was to just let the pandemic play out over the coming weeks / months while we vaccinate as many as possible, the estimates have said we would be at 90% coverage (adults only) by the end of September. But this thing is simply spreading too fast, the health authorities were quoted today saying they did not anticipate today's situation.
After a year and a half I am really disappointed we are still in this mess of a situation. And now I hear there's another mutant on the horizon, a Columbian variant or something. Will this ever end.
Hang in there, man. I know it sounds bad over there. But every place that it has looked bad in the past has normalized within a couple of months as well. It'll take awhile to completely figure this thing out, and both good and bad decisions have been and will continue to be made along the way. But we'll get through it.
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From the NY times daily e-mail (no link since its an email, sorry)
Since the pandemic began, Covid has often followed a regular — if mysterious — cycle. In one country after another, the number of new cases has often surged for roughly two months before starting to fall. The Delta variant, despite its intense contagiousness, has followed this pattern.
After Delta took hold last winter in India, caseloads there rose sharply for slightly more than two months before plummeting at a nearly identical rate. In Britain, caseloads rose for almost exactly two months before peaking in July. In Indonesia, Thailand, France, Spain and several other countries, the Delta surge also lasted somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5 months.
And in the U.S. states where Delta first caused caseloads to rise, the cycle already appears to be on its downside. Case numbers in Arkansas, Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi and Missouri peaked in early or mid-August and have since been falling
I've been saying for the last month or so that we should plateau eventually. It just seems these waves are going to be the norm for awhile. Even the CEO of my company stated this recently. It's going to be the way of life for awhile until we get more people vaccinated. The positive of all this and proof the vaccines work, is that even though cases are high, death are not at the level they once were. And the stats show the deaths are almost all unvaccinated. Get the vaccine if you haven't yet.
I was going to post the same thing (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/briefing/delta-peak-covid-caseload.html).
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In this forum, more so than anywhere else I frequent, I see rational discussion. It's not seen everywhere, which may be part and parcel of our problem.
As hard as it is to process, I think that most sides of the argument are partially correct (exempting the truly absurd extreme anti-vax theories)... and I do think that we should be free to live and die by our own judgements and decisions as this situation rapidly changes. The issue with some people that haven't been poked yet, is that they do not really understand what the vaccine is designed to do... basically, to keep you from hospitalization if/when you contract COVID and to lessen the amount of mutation (the virus is unstable and will continue to mutate even in the vaxed population, but those mutations shouldn't be wildfire like we're seeing now once more people are vaxed). For my own personal journey, I had to source several different information sources and physician opinions to make my own decisions... and I was glad to be free to do so. BTW... I receive the second dose on Friday 9-3.
Understanding that the vax isn't necessarily going to keep you from getting COVID, but keep you from life threating symptoms (in the majority of cases) is an important point that I think gets glossed over, if not outright missed. I hear people say "if I can still get COVID, why force me to get poked" and I shake my head because the vaccine mechanics really have not been explained fully to a mass audience (in my opinion). I suppose it's also possible that explanations have been ignored as well... though I think that's another discussion.
I still find it hard to believe that the the greater majority of the general public cannot/will-not understand that this is a rapidly evolving situation with a novel and unstable virus... sometimes the situation changes and scientists/physicians/etc should be given a bit more rope with regard to "what's working today may not work tomorrow".
While the 30-yr old's story is truly tragic for him and for his family, he made his own decision. Who knows if he researched the vaccine for himself or if he had access/ability to research it... but he made his decision and sadly died by it. His decision widowed his wife and left he children fatherless. It was the wrong decision, in my opinion, but he was allowed to make a decision. Perhaps someone else will learn from his poor decision.
When I think of forged Vaccination Cards, I'm astounded by the myriad ways that the human race can conceive to take advantage of it's own ignorance.
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Understanding that the vax isn't necessarily going to keep you from getting COVID, but keep you from life threating symptoms (in the majority of cases) is an important point that I think gets glossed over, if not outright missed. I hear people say "if I can still get COVID, why force me to get poked" and I shake my head because the vaccine mechanics really have not been explained fully to a mass audience (in my opinion). I suppose it's also possible that explanations have been ignored as well... though I think that's another discussion.
Yeah, those people I can at least relate to. That's ignorance rather than insanity, and they can probably be reasoned with. In those cases an intervention would probably help. At the same time, a whole lot of these numbskulls take it way further. Plenty of people think that not only can you still get sick after you take the vaccine, but that it's the vaccine that made you sick in the first place. These people are the problem, and they'll increasingly be in the majority of non-vaccinated. Frankly, your VT alum can't perfect the Sun Cannon fast enough for my liking.
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Understanding that the vax isn't necessarily going to keep you from getting COVID, but keep you from life threating symptoms (in the majority of cases) is an important point that I think gets glossed over, if not outright missed. I hear people say "if I can still get COVID, why force me to get poked" and I shake my head because the vaccine mechanics really have not been explained fully to a mass audience (in my opinion). I suppose it's also possible that explanations have been ignored as well... though I think that's another discussion.
I see this information everywhere so I'm not sure that's the reason peolpe don't understand, I think it's more about manipulation via social media. You got your advice from a doctor. When people are asked where they get their advice from, a lot say social media. That is the problem. Social media is driven by your own likes and interests. If you follow an anti-vaxxer, the algorithms are going to show you more. Eventually you never see the other side of the table. SO many people fall into this trap. Then when they see the actual reality they don't believe it because everything else they've seen/read has said the opposite.
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In this forum, more so than anywhere else I frequent, I see rational discussion. It's not seen everywhere, which may be part and parcel of our problem.
As hard as it is to process, I think that most sides of the argument are partially correct (exempting the truly absurd extreme anti-vax theories)... and I do think that we should be free to live and die by our own judgements and decisions as this situation rapidly changes. The issue with some people that haven't been poked yet, is that they do not really understand what the vaccine is designed to do... basically, to keep you from hospitalization if/when you contract COVID and to lessen the amount of mutation (the virus is unstable and will continue to mutate even in the vaxed population, but those mutations shouldn't be wildfire like we're seeing now once more people are vaxed). For my own personal journey, I had to source several different information sources and physician opinions to make my own decisions... and I was glad to be free to do so. BTW... I receive the second dose on Friday 9-3.
Understanding that the vax isn't necessarily going to keep you from getting COVID, but keep you from life threating symptoms (in the majority of cases) is an important point that I think gets glossed over, if not outright missed. I hear people say "if I can still get COVID, why force me to get poked" and I shake my head because the vaccine mechanics really have not been explained fully to a mass audience (in my opinion). I suppose it's also possible that explanations have been ignored as well... though I think that's another discussion.
I still find it hard to believe that the the greater majority of the general public cannot/will-not understand that this is a rapidly evolving situation with a novel and unstable virus... sometimes the situation changes and scientists/physicians/etc should be given a bit more rope with regard to "what's working today may not work tomorrow".
While the 30-yr old's story is truly tragic for him and for his family, he made his own decision. Who knows if he researched the vaccine for himself or if he had access/ability to research it... but he made his decision and sadly died by it. His decision widowed his wife and left he children fatherless. It was the wrong decision, in my opinion, but he was allowed to make a decision. Perhaps someone else will learn from his poor decision.
When I think of forged Vaccination Cards, I'm astounded by the myriad ways that the human race can conceive to take advantage of it's own ignorance.
:clap:
And I personally wouldn't assume these unvaccinated people did look at the data and still come to the conclusion to not take it, were not informed or did not understand.
If a person wants to continue living, even if they do catch Covid but are not worried about the symptoms or dying, why should we forbid a person from that?
Also, I do think there are people who are testing the government so to say. By denying a mandate, you test the authorative powers by seeing how they will discipline your disobedience. What lengths will they go and how far will they go to make you submit?
We are witnessing the answers to that. And it's a response to the cause of being disobedient.
I think it's telling how they had to coerce people to get vaccinated. By using their powers of how they control our basic necessities for survival like food, and shelter. In order for people to actually take their vaccines. It's why I ask, and wonder if there is data out there for how many took the vaccine because of their health, or because their job/livelihoods required it? This will show us the true intent and ethical morality of humans.
That humans have to be coerced to take something that is considered beneficial for all of humanity.
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Understanding that the vax isn't necessarily going to keep you from getting COVID, but keep you from life threating symptoms (in the majority of cases) is an important point that I think gets glossed over, if not outright missed. I hear people say "if I can still get COVID, why force me to get poked" and I shake my head because the vaccine mechanics really have not been explained fully to a mass audience (in my opinion). I suppose it's also possible that explanations have been ignored as well... though I think that's another discussion.
I see this information everywhere so I'm not sure that's the reason peolpe don't understand, I think it's more about manipulation via social media. You got your advice from a doctor. When people are asked where they get their advice from, a lot say social media. That is the problem. Social media is driven by your own likes and interests. If you follow an anti-vaxxer, the algorithms are going to show you more. Eventually you never see the other side of the table. SO many people fall into this trap. Then when they see the actual reality they don't believe it because everything else they've seen/read has said the opposite.
The only medical advice you should be taking is from your doctor. As they are the ones that should know your medical history and how your body is developing. They advise you on what to do and what not to do, as doing certain things can affect your health and could even make those health issues worse.
If people would have seen their doctor before taking the vaccines, I am sure that these adverse reactions wouldn't have been so high. As they would've likely been told by their doctor not too, as that could affect their current health and should not take it for their risk of an adverse effect is higher than the benefits of the vaccine.
The drug commercials for the shingles vaccine I saw even states to "consult your doctor and see if (shinglax, made up name) is right for you."
Which means, see your doctor before taking this because you could take it and have one of these adverse effects I spent the entire commercial naming can happen.
I personally feel people in general should be seeing their doctors more and telling them everything that is wrong or that doesn't feel right. Myself included in this sentiment because even though I haven't visited a doctor in how long for check-ups and do not have a good account of my health history, I am likely considered still healthy until I go in and tell them all that is wrong with me, and until I get diagnosed as having these health issues.
-
Understanding that the vax isn't necessarily going to keep you from getting COVID, but keep you from life threating symptoms (in the majority of cases) is an important point that I think gets glossed over, if not outright missed. I hear people say "if I can still get COVID, why force me to get poked" and I shake my head because the vaccine mechanics really have not been explained fully to a mass audience (in my opinion). I suppose it's also possible that explanations have been ignored as well... though I think that's another discussion.
I see this information everywhere so I'm not sure that's the reason peolpe don't understand, I think it's more about manipulation via social media. You got your advice from a doctor. When people are asked where they get their advice from, a lot say social media. That is the problem. Social media is driven by your own likes and interests. If you follow an anti-vaxxer, the algorithms are going to show you more. Eventually you never see the other side of the table. SO many people fall into this trap. Then when they see the actual reality they don't believe it because everything else they've seen/read has said the opposite.
The only medical advice you should be taking is from your doctor. As they are the ones that should know your medical history and how your body is developing. They advise you on what to do and what not to do, as doing certain things can affect your health and could even make those health issues worse.
If people would have seen their doctor before taking the vaccines, I am sure that these adverse reactions wouldn't have been so high. As they would've likely been told by their doctor not too, as that could affect their current health and should not take it for their risk of an adverse effect is higher than the benefits of the vaccine.
The drug commercials for the shingles vaccine I saw even states to "consult your doctor and see if (shinglax, made up name) is right for you."
Which means, see your doctor before taking this because you could take it and have one of these adverse effects I spent the entire commercial naming can happen.
I personally feel people in general should be seeing their doctors more and telling them everything that is wrong or that doesn't feel right. Myself included in this sentiment because even though I haven't visited a doctor in how long for check-ups and do not have a good account of my health history, I am likely considered still healthy until I go in and tell them all that is wrong with me, and until I get diagnosed as having these health issues.
To be honest, I see a lot of doctors, and I'm not sure I'd trust any of them to be up on the medical research. Like the rest of us they largely rely on others to do the research and offer best practices. I have no doubt my [former] PCP knows far more about T cells and protein spikes than I do, and how they may effect my immune system, but I don't know as he's actually done any research to determine a specific vaccine's applicability to my specific situation. Doctors specialize for a reason, and most of the doctors we interact with have a broad, general knowledge, but that comes at the expense of greater detail across the spectrum. They're getting their intel from the same virologists and immunologists we are. They just understand it a bit better.
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What should this doctor's punishment be? Does this count as fraud?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2021/09/01/mask-exemptions-signed-chiropractor-district-revises-qualifications/5684533001/
A chiropractor in Venice, Florida, provided more than 500 medical exemption forms for children attending Sarasota County Schools who did not want to wear a mask.
Dan Busch, a chiropractor at Twin Palms Chiropractic, has signed roughly one-third of all medical exemption forms turned in district-wide, district spokesman Craig Maniglia said Wednesday morning.
Various media reports over the last week have shown families in lines wrapping around Busch's practice, and some families have told news reporters that they simply grabbed a pre-signed form off of the counter.
-
Understanding that the vax isn't necessarily going to keep you from getting COVID, but keep you from life threating symptoms (in the majority of cases) is an important point that I think gets glossed over, if not outright missed. I hear people say "if I can still get COVID, why force me to get poked" and I shake my head because the vaccine mechanics really have not been explained fully to a mass audience (in my opinion). I suppose it's also possible that explanations have been ignored as well... though I think that's another discussion.
I see this information everywhere so I'm not sure that's the reason peolpe don't understand, I think it's more about manipulation via social media. You got your advice from a doctor. When people are asked where they get their advice from, a lot say social media. That is the problem. Social media is driven by your own likes and interests. If you follow an anti-vaxxer, the algorithms are going to show you more. Eventually you never see the other side of the table. SO many people fall into this trap. Then when they see the actual reality they don't believe it because everything else they've seen/read has said the opposite.
The only medical advice you should be taking is from your doctor. As they are the ones that should know your medical history and how your body is developing. They advise you on what to do and what not to do, as doing certain things can affect your health and could even make those health issues worse.
If people would have seen their doctor before taking the vaccines, I am sure that these adverse reactions wouldn't have been so high. As they would've likely been told by their doctor not too, as that could affect their current health and should not take it for their risk of an adverse effect is higher than the benefits of the vaccine.
The drug commercials for the shingles vaccine I saw even states to "consult your doctor and see if (shinglax, made up name) is right for you."
Which means, see your doctor before taking this because you could take it and have one of these adverse effects I spent the entire commercial naming can happen.
I personally feel people in general should be seeing their doctors more and telling them everything that is wrong or that doesn't feel right. Myself included in this sentiment because even though I haven't visited a doctor in how long for check-ups and do not have a good account of my health history, I am likely considered still healthy until I go in and tell them all that is wrong with me, and until I get diagnosed as having these health issues.
To be honest, I see a lot of doctors, and I'm not sure I'd trust any of them to be up on the medical research. Like the rest of us they largely rely on others to do the research and offer best practices. I have no doubt my [former] PCP knows far more about T cells and protein spikes than I do, and how they may effect my immune system, but I don't know as he's actually done any research to determine a specific vaccine's applicability to my specific situation. Doctors specialize for a reason, and most of the doctors we interact with have a broad, general knowledge, but that comes at the expense of greater detail across the spectrum. They're getting their intel from the same virologists and immunologists we are. They just understand it a bit better.
It should also be noted that doctors are people too and can show bias and be manipulated just like anyone else. Regardless, it's still pretty good idea to get information from your doctor over randoms on social media.
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What should this doctor's punishment be? Does this count as fraud?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2021/09/01/mask-exemptions-signed-chiropractor-district-revises-qualifications/5684533001/
A chiropractor in Venice, Florida, provided more than 500 medical exemption forms for children attending Sarasota County Schools who did not want to wear a mask.
Dan Busch, a chiropractor at Twin Palms Chiropractic, has signed roughly one-third of all medical exemption forms turned in district-wide, district spokesman Craig Maniglia said Wednesday morning.
Various media reports over the last week have shown families in lines wrapping around Busch's practice, and some families have told news reporters that they simply grabbed a pre-signed form off of the counter.
How can he when there is no system in place to determine what is "vaccine card" fraud?
And how can he be when you have people worrying about if their cards will be accepted because they're not all the same?
Basically, how can they determine who is an official doctor to provide a medical exemption?
Can you fault people for finding the loopholes and taking advantage of these loopholes?...
-
Understanding that the vax isn't necessarily going to keep you from getting COVID, but keep you from life threating symptoms (in the majority of cases) is an important point that I think gets glossed over, if not outright missed. I hear people say "if I can still get COVID, why force me to get poked" and I shake my head because the vaccine mechanics really have not been explained fully to a mass audience (in my opinion). I suppose it's also possible that explanations have been ignored as well... though I think that's another discussion.
I see this information everywhere so I'm not sure that's the reason peolpe don't understand, I think it's more about manipulation via social media. You got your advice from a doctor. When people are asked where they get their advice from, a lot say social media. That is the problem. Social media is driven by your own likes and interests. If you follow an anti-vaxxer, the algorithms are going to show you more. Eventually you never see the other side of the table. SO many people fall into this trap. Then when they see the actual reality they don't believe it because everything else they've seen/read has said the opposite.
The only medical advice you should be taking is from your doctor. As they are the ones that should know your medical history and how your body is developing. They advise you on what to do and what not to do, as doing certain things can affect your health and could even make those health issues worse.
If people would have seen their doctor before taking the vaccines, I am sure that these adverse reactions wouldn't have been so high. As they would've likely been told by their doctor not too, as that could affect their current health and should not take it for their risk of an adverse effect is higher than the benefits of the vaccine.
The drug commercials for the shingles vaccine I saw even states to "consult your doctor and see if (shinglax, made up name) is right for you."
Which means, see your doctor before taking this because you could take it and have one of these adverse effects I spent the entire commercial naming can happen.
I personally feel people in general should be seeing their doctors more and telling them everything that is wrong or that doesn't feel right. Myself included in this sentiment because even though I haven't visited a doctor in how long for check-ups and do not have a good account of my health history, I am likely considered still healthy until I go in and tell them all that is wrong with me, and until I get diagnosed as having these health issues.
To be honest, I see a lot of doctors, and I'm not sure I'd trust any of them to be up on the medical research. Like the rest of us they largely rely on others to do the research and offer best practices. I have no doubt my [former] PCP knows far more about T cells and protein spikes than I do, and how they may effect my immune system, but I don't know as he's actually done any research to determine a specific vaccine's applicability to my specific situation. Doctors specialize for a reason, and most of the doctors we interact with have a broad, general knowledge, but that comes at the expense of greater detail across the spectrum. They're getting their intel from the same virologists and immunologists we are. They just understand it a bit better.
It should also be noted that doctors are people too and can show bias and be manipulated just like anyone else. Regardless, it's still pretty good idea to get information from your doctor over randoms on social media.
Precisely...We're all humans. And those "experts" are not God's and are not all-knowing. They probably wish they were gods and all knowing. The scary part is that some people do believe they are God's and all knowing, and even scarier when these people become the controllers of authority.
-
What should this doctor's punishment be? Does this count as fraud?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2021/09/01/mask-exemptions-signed-chiropractor-district-revises-qualifications/5684533001/
A chiropractor in Venice, Florida, provided more than 500 medical exemption forms for children attending Sarasota County Schools who did not want to wear a mask.
Dan Busch, a chiropractor at Twin Palms Chiropractic, has signed roughly one-third of all medical exemption forms turned in district-wide, district spokesman Craig Maniglia said Wednesday morning.
Various media reports over the last week have shown families in lines wrapping around Busch's practice, and some families have told news reporters that they simply grabbed a pre-signed form off of the counter.
How can he when there is no system in place to determine what is "vaccine card" fraud?
And how can he be when you have people worrying about if their cards will be accepted because they're not all the same?
Basically, how can they determine who is an official doctor to provide a medical exemption?
Can you fault people for finding the loopholes and taking advantage of these loopholes?...
Vaccine cards don't factor into this at all.
If the reason he issued exemptions is related to disorders of the skeleton, and he examined each of these kids to determine their eligibility, I'd give him a pass. We all know he didn't, though. The reality is that there's probably no law in place, which is actually bad news for him. If he were to be charged with something he could parlay his newfound "victim of government persecution" status into a career in politics. Though I'm sure he makes more money in quackery than he would with a political career.
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My pediatrician friend's office is refusing to give anyone exemptions for wearing a mask, I can see why people are flocking to that guy. My friend said it's non stop with parents asking for it for no legitimate reasons.
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Reading a bit on Ivermectin (the horse dewormer), and it's pretty interesting. It may well work, and it is well tolerated. The problem is that it may not work, and people seem to be latching onto that message as part of the big conspiracy. In reality, it's being misrepresented by both sides. It's probably not the miracle drug people think it is. Some small studies show it's effective and other small studies show that it's not. None of them are large scale or particularly sound scientifically (and the first one might have been fraudulent). Now you've got dipshits taking massive doses, and doses meant for veterinary use, causing the FDA and others to shout even louder to stop taking it, continuing the mistrust. Doctors say to skip Ivermectin and get vaccinated because it's the scientifically proven method. Meatheads see anecdotal evidence of people taking it and getting better, and naturally assume the doctors are either wrong or in on the scam.
At the same time, calling it "horse dewormer" isn't really fair. It is used for that purpose, but it's been used in humans for quite some time, and has seen quite a bit of traction around the world as an anti-viral medication. Dismissing it based on its primary usage and the morons eating horse pills by the handful only widens the gap, and we may well find out that it does work, giving credence to the people who don't understand how science works.
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The difference from my understanding, is people buying it from walmarts and other stores where it's meant for horses, not going to a doctor and getting the low grade prescription for human usage. There's a political spin to this for sure as well since Trump promoted it. I don't think it got a fair shot in a real large study to see it's effects, but the smaller studies and anecdotal evidence doesn't really win me over on it being effective. Of course vaccination makes more sense, but add it to the Darwinism when people who don't get a shot because they don't trust what's in it but then buy and use the horse product.
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I saw pfizer has a treatment in trial phase, an oral pill. I can't wait to see people trust it cause it's a pill but not the vaccine even though they're made by the same people.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
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Reading a bit on Ivermectin (the horse dewormer), and it's pretty interesting. It may well work, and it is well tolerated. The problem is that it may not work, and people seem to be latching onto that message as part of the big conspiracy. In reality, it's being misrepresented by both sides. It's probably not the miracle drug people think it is. Some small studies show it's effective and other small studies show that it's not. None of them are large scale or particularly sound scientifically (and the first one might have been fraudulent). Now you've got dipshits taking massive doses, and doses meant for veterinary use, causing the FDA and others to shout even louder to stop taking it, continuing the mistrust. Doctors say to skip Ivermectin and get vaccinated because it's the scientifically proven method. Meatheads see anecdotal evidence of people taking it and getting better, and naturally assume the doctors are either wrong or in on the scam.
At the same time, calling it "horse dewormer" isn't really fair. It is used for that purpose, but it's been used in humans for quite some time, and has seen quite a bit of traction around the world as an anti-viral medication. Dismissing it based on its primary usage and the morons eating horse pills by the handful only widens the gap, and we may well find out that it does work, giving credence to the people who don't understand how science works.
That's quite interesting and as is sometimes usual, it seems that the answer is within the spectrum of both sides and once you drown out the excess noise, you will find the truth there in the middle of all the yelling and screaming, deep within the trenches both sides dug.
So, if a doctor thinks it may work, and you yourself agree, then why not try it if there is a chance it might work. That is the logic of people taking the vaccines, because it may work, then why not try it if it does work.
I know people who took a vaccine and said, "Well then, if I die we'll know then won't we." to which I say... :tup
That over excess noise, is the problem because it drowns out the truth. And the truth could easily have been told with a simple..."Ivermectin is shown in some studies to possibly work. While in other studies it is shown to not be effective at all. Consider talking with your doctor to see if taking Ivermectin is beneficial or detrimental for your personal health."
Which means, asking your doctor about this study you saw and see what his advice is about that study, and if he hasn't seen it, maybe he will and may possibly consider it. But that is up to him to decide what he feels is best for you to do to better your health and keep yourself from dying sooner than expected.
The difference from my understanding, is people buying it from walmarts and other stores where it's meant for horses, not going to a doctor and getting the low grade prescription for human usage. There's a political spin to this for sure as well since Trump promoted it. I don't think it got a fair shot in a real large study to see it's effects, but the smaller studies and anecdotal evidence doesn't really win me over on it being effective. Of course vaccination makes more sense, but add it to the Darwinism when people who don't get a shot because they don't trust what's in it but then buy and use the horse product.
I have an instinct that those people, may very well be the same that went out and panic bought all the supply of toilet paper.
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I saw pfizer has a treatment in trial phase, an oral pill. I can't eaito see people trust it cause it's a pill but not the vaccine even though they're made by the same people.
I personally am waiting for the edible vaccine.... :corn :biggrin:
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Saw this, he won't take the vaccine, but he trust the antibody cocktail and the ivermectin. We're doomed.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Rogan represents a fairly large slice of the problem. By taking everything under the sun we have no idea what helped, what hurt, and what was meaningless. That's a big part of the problem with Ivermectin. People are taking it on their own with no way of analyzing its efficacy other than "welp, they didn't die."
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Saw this, he won't take the vaccine, but he trust the antibody cocktail and the ivermectin. We're doomed.
In fairness, the Ivermectin is probably as well understood as the vaccine. That's been a thing since the 70s, and people have been taking it since the 80s. No idea about the monoclonal antibodies.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Saw this, he won't take the vaccine, but he trust the antibody cocktail and the ivermectin. We're doomed.
In fairness, the Ivermectin is probably as well understood as the vaccine. That's been a thing since the 70s, and people have been taking it since the 80s. No idea about the monoclonal antibodies.
The medical community supports the antibody treatments, and they obviously support the vaccine. While there have been some small studies showing ivermectin as having a possible effect in treatment of covid, it's obviously second to the two more proven treatments.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Rogan represents a fairly large slice of the problem. By taking everything under the sun we have no idea what helped, what hurt, and what was meaningless. That's a big part of the problem with Ivermectin. People are taking it on their own with no way of analyzing its efficacy other than "welp, they didn't die."
And that's my thing. I'm glad he's ok, but he could've easily poisoned himself. It's possible one of those things worked, maybe the combination of everything, but maybe nothing worked and he just had a mild case of Covid.
With the following he has, I think it's safe to assume one of his followers would try the same, with a very different result.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Saw this, he won't take the vaccine, but he trust the antibody cocktail and the ivermectin. We're doomed.
In fairness, the Ivermectin is probably as well understood as the vaccine. That's been a thing since the 70s, and people have been taking it since the 80s. No idea about the monoclonal antibodies.
Taking ivermectin in the 80s for what?
-
Reading a bit on Ivermectin (the horse dewormer), and it's pretty interesting. It may well work, and it is well tolerated. The problem is that it may not work, and people seem to be latching onto that message as part of the big conspiracy. In reality, it's being misrepresented by both sides. It's probably not the miracle drug people think it is. Some small studies show it's effective and other small studies show that it's not. None of them are large scale or particularly sound scientifically (and the first one might have been fraudulent). Now you've got dipshits taking massive doses, and doses meant for veterinary use, causing the FDA and others to shout even louder to stop taking it, continuing the mistrust. Doctors say to skip Ivermectin and get vaccinated because it's the scientifically proven method. Meatheads see anecdotal evidence of people taking it and getting better, and naturally assume the doctors are either wrong or in on the scam.
At the same time, calling it "horse dewormer" isn't really fair. It is used for that purpose, but it's been used in humans for quite some time, and has seen quite a bit of traction around the world as an anti-viral medication. Dismissing it based on its primary usage and the morons eating horse pills by the handful only widens the gap, and we may well find out that it does work, giving credence to the people who don't understand how science works.
At the heart of all of this is short-cut, Twitter (read: surficial, 140-character bumper sticker insight) ideological thinking. Again, if those with an opinion and the inclination to weigh in with that opinion (I mean elsewhere, Bart, not you personally) would take even a five minute break from the incessant "sides" arguments, we'd be better off.
The funny thing is, if this was a parent looking for a solution for her kid's autism or cancer it's hard NOT to imagine people screaming for the government to do more, or fast-track approval for any piece of hope. Instead, it's just moron deplorables. Very frustrating.
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I saw pfizer has a treatment in trial phase, an oral pill. I can't wait to see people trust it cause it's a pill but not the vaccine even though they're made by the same people.
Why would that matter? I'm no Luddite when it comes to medicine, but I'm also not the person that runs to the doctor every time I have an itch or an ache. I don't do a lot of medicines generally - I can count the aspirins I've taken in the last year on one hand and my wife yells at me for that - but I'm far more likely to take a pill over getting a vaccine and it's not even close. It doesn't matter even an iota who made it.
You just can't make these kinds of assumptions.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Rogan represents a fairly large slice of the problem. By taking everything under the sun we have no idea what helped, what hurt, and what was meaningless. That's a big part of the problem with Ivermectin. People are taking it on their own with no way of analyzing its efficacy other than "welp, they didn't die."
But it's important to point out, that's not "misplaced trust" or "conspiracy thinking", that's just bad scientific method. I can point to many examples of those smart, "right side of history"* people that have done the same thing and pointed to SUCCESS! with no idea how they got there. Anyone who's ever worked on a car or diagnosed an electrical circuit knows you only mess with one variable at a time so you can track the impacts.
* And no, I'm not taking sides, I'm pointing out that it doesn't matter WHAT side you're on, there are more things in play here than just ideology or some arbitrary measure of "intelligence".
-
I saw pfizer has a treatment in trial phase, an oral pill. I can't wait to see people trust it cause it's a pill but not the vaccine even though they're made by the same people.
Why would that matter? I'm no Luddite when it comes to medicine, but I'm also not the person that runs to the doctor every time I have an itch or an ache. I don't do a lot of medicines generally - I can count the aspirins I've taken in the last year on one hand and my wife yells at me for that - but I'm far more likely to take a pill over getting a vaccine and it's not even close. It doesn't matter even an iota who made it.
You just can't make these kinds of assumptions.
I can make whatever assumptions I want. It's a superpower of sorts.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Two interesting points from that:
One, Spotify paid $100 million for the library of podcasts, then deleted 40 of them from the roster, the implication being that it's because of "misinformation"; it's like buying the Dream Theater catalogue and deleting 40 songs because "they are too long". Presumably, that's at least in part how he got to be the most popular podcast. Why not do like old movies and present it with a rebuttal or disclaimer?
Two, this exchange: "But months later on his podcast, he lambasted the push for mass vaccinations and also questioned whether the vaccines actually prevented the spread of the virus — even as he couched his remarks, saying “this is neither pro- nor con-vaccine.”
Public health experts have said that vaccines are the most effective way of preventing the spread of the virus and are effective at preventing people from getting very sick and dying from covid-19, including the delta variant."
Now, I'm no denier - I've gotten both shots and will get a booster on day one if that's what we need to do - but this is indicative of why so many people DON'T trust what's being told. Rogan asked one specific question: "WHETHER VACCINES ACTUALLY PREVENTED THE SPREAD" and the response? It answered the question - sort of; they didn't say they do, just that they were better than anything else - then had to deflect to a point that, while important, had nothing to do with Rogan's question. It's like how the masks/vaccines were to reduce load on the ICUs but once that problem was solved the goal pivoted to something else. All legitimate, but if one of your primary concerns is consistency of message and credibility, someone's got to look in the mirror.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Two interesting points from that:
One, Spotify paid $100 million for the library of podcasts, then deleted 40 of them from the roster, the implication being that it's because of "misinformation"; it's like buying the Dream Theater catalogue and deleting 40 songs because "they are too long". Presumably, that's at least in part how he got to be the most popular podcast. Why not do like old movies and present it with a rebuttal or disclaimer?
Two, this exchange: "But months later on his podcast, he lambasted the push for mass vaccinations and also questioned whether the vaccines actually prevented the spread of the virus — even as he couched his remarks, saying “this is neither pro- nor con-vaccine.”
Public health experts have said that vaccines are the most effective way of preventing the spread of the virus and are effective at preventing people from getting very sick and dying from covid-19, including the delta variant."
Now, I'm no denier - I've gotten both shots and will get a booster on day one if that's what we need to do - but this is indicative of why so many people DON'T trust what's being told. Rogan asked one specific question: "WHETHER VACCINES ACTUALLY PREVENTED THE SPREAD" and the response? It answered the question - sort of; they didn't say they do, just that they were better than anything else - then had to deflect to a point that, while important, had nothing to do with Rogan's question. It's like how the masks/vaccines were to reduce load on the ICUs but once that problem was solved the goal pivoted to something else. All legitimate, but if one of your primary concerns is consistency of message and credibility, someone's got to look in the mirror.
Nah...They just mad people are listening to him instead of listening to them. :corn :biggrin: :lol
I am sure Joe Rogan knows and understands the difference between Ivermectin for Livestock use and Ivermectin for Human use. His listeners/followers on the other hand, can't really say that for them.
But, yet, since ivermectin is the bad enemy now. The headlines just have to read and mention "he took the livestock medicine", when we had people posting the middle truth of Ivermectin is shown to work and yet again, it's shown not to work.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
"Public health experts have said that vaccines are the most effective way of preventing the spread of the virus and are effective at preventing people from getting very sick and dying from covid-19, including the delta variant."
Rogan asked one specific question: "WHETHER VACCINES ACTUALLY PREVENTED THE SPREAD" and the response?
Did he have a podcast where he specifically asked the question to a 'public health expert', or was it just his commentary? I took the article to imply the latter. I haven't listened to his podcasts, so I don't know the segment specifically... but it sounds like it's *his* words and his musings. If so, it's a dumb statement. Clearly nothing is "preventing" the spread... all we can do is try to manage/minimize/slow/whatever the spread. The question is dumb, but answering it the way the article says it was "answered" is even dumber.
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The difference from my understanding, is people buying it from walmarts and other stores where it's meant for horses, not going to a doctor and getting the low grade prescription for human usage.
That's my understanding, as well. People are taking the version intended for animals, which is a super concentrated dose that can have bad effects on humans, while probably not doing anything against Covid.
Ivermectin is sometimes used for humans, but at much lower doses.
And yes, people taking horse pills are morons.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Saw this, he won't take the vaccine, but he trust the antibody cocktail and the ivermectin. We're doomed.
In fairness, the Ivermectin is probably as well understood as the vaccine. That's been a thing since the 70s, and people have been taking it since the 80s. No idea about the monoclonal antibodies.
Taking ivermectin in the 80s for what?
The same thing it's given to animals for; dealing with parasites parasitic infections. It's also been used off label as an anti-malarial.
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Well bummer you need a subscription to read that WaPo article.
Joe Rogan is a mystery to me. He has some wonderful guests and was one of the first to get ahead of this COVID by interviewing Michael Olsterholm back at the beginning of this mess so he comes across as a man of science and rational. But when he has more controversial guests on, he can easily waffle to the side of his crazier guests. What's ironic is he has talked up building up your immune system so he eats right, exercises and doesn't really drink much alcohol and yet he still gets COVID and as someone wrote earlier, he took so much shit he'll never know what worked. :facepalm:
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Saw this, he won't take the vaccine, but he trust the antibody cocktail and the ivermectin. We're doomed.
The article I read said he won't tell anyone if he has or hasn't taken the vaccine. Do you know for a fact he hasn't gotten it? I know he's skeptical but that doesn't mean he didn't get it. :cough: Abbott :cough:
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Saw this, he won't take the vaccine, but he trust the antibody cocktail and the ivermectin. We're doomed.
The article I read said he won't tell anyone if he has or hasn't taken the vaccine. Do you know for a fact he hasn't gotten it? I know he's skeptical but that doesn't mean he didn't get it. :cough: Abbott :cough:
He did say that he felt the vaccines were safe, but that if you are young and healthy, you probably don't need it.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Rogan represents a fairly large slice of the problem. By taking everything under the sun we have no idea what helped, what hurt, and what was meaningless. That's a big part of the problem with Ivermectin. People are taking it on their own with no way of analyzing its efficacy other than "welp, they didn't die."
But it's important to point out, that's not "misplaced trust" or "conspiracy thinking", that's just bad scientific method. I can point to many examples of those smart, "right side of history"* people that have done the same thing and pointed to SUCCESS! with no idea how they got there. Anyone who's ever worked on a car or diagnosed an electrical circuit knows you only mess with one variable at a time so you can track the impacts.
* And no, I'm not taking sides, I'm pointing out that it doesn't matter WHAT side you're on, there are more things in play here than just ideology or some arbitrary measure of "intelligence".
You do realize that a massive slice of America is taking sides, right? I don't like it any more than you do, and we both agree that it's a big problem, but it is the realityw. All I did was point out that to the people taking sides Rogan didn't help matters. Your car analogy is bang-on. He got better and there's zero indication that ivermectin had anything to do with it, but a whole lot of Americans are going to see his recovery as proof, and they're going to feed the conspiracy that the government is trying to keep us from taking a cheap and effective cure so we'll take the expensive and experimental cures.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Saw this, he won't take the vaccine, but he trust the antibody cocktail and the ivermectin. We're doomed.
The article I read said he won't tell anyone if he has or hasn't taken the vaccine. Do you know for a fact he hasn't gotten it? I know he's skeptical but that doesn't mean he didn't get it. :cough: Abbott :cough:
He did say that he felt the vaccines were safe, but that if you are young and healthy, you probably don't need it.
I saw those headlines when he said that, but he isn't young so that also doesn't mean he didn't get it. For me, to really have more of an opinion here I kind of need to know if he was vaccinated or not. It kind of changes how I feel about his covid battle. If he threw the kitchen sink at it, that implies to me he was also vaccinated. Sounds a lot like Abbott really. Regardless, I got to think the anti-body treatment did more for his recovery than anything else. And he should be open with that treatment being very expensive and not going to be available to everyone where as the vaccine is free and available.
Personally, I don't dislike Rogan at all. I will occasionally watch the snippets on youtube. I often feel like he's fairly balanced and takes on both sides which, for me, is a reason to like him. I don't always agree with his thoughts and that's fine. HAving said that, I don't really get the appeal of him to the masses. Him always going to google and him mumbling gets tiring so I can only take it in short snippets like it's presented on youtube these days.
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Well bummer you need a subscription to read that WaPo article.
Joe Rogan is a mystery to me. He has some wonderful guests and was one of the first to get ahead of this COVID by interviewing Michael Olsterholm back at the beginning of this mess so he comes across as a man of science and rational. But when he has more controversial guests on, he can easily waffle to the side of his crazier guests. What's ironic is he has talked up building up your immune system so he eats right, exercises and doesn't really drink much alcohol and yet he still gets COVID and as someone wrote earlier, he took so much shit he'll never know what worked. :facepalm:
Maybe, just maybe, that's an "open mind". I don't know what you're thinking here, but it's hard to read that paragraph without my thinking you just assume he HAS to reject them as morons or not even have them on the show to begin with. Not slapping them with a stick is what debate/discussion is. "Silence is not consent"; we can talk about controversial topics without it being a de facto acceptance or endorsement. I don't listen to Joe Rogan (though not out of dislike for him; more due to time) but he strikes me as a curious guy who is interested in information, not just information that conforms to his (individual, subjective) worldview.
This is why I keep going back to 'wants'; it's all about what you WANT, and that's irrelevant. We're worried that one person (or a few, or 1,000; it matters not how many) will hear this nonsense and inject battery acid in their cock to fight COVID. But just as many people hear "Oh, vaccine solves everything!" and gets the vaccine with the same level of thought - that is to say, NONE - as the "crazies". You're okay with that lack of scrutiny because they did what you want them to do. For someone like me, who is worried about HOW we get there, it's just as much of a problem.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Saw this, he won't take the vaccine, but he trust the antibody cocktail and the ivermectin. We're doomed.
The article I read said he won't tell anyone if he has or hasn't taken the vaccine. Do you know for a fact he hasn't gotten it? I know he's skeptical but that doesn't mean he didn't get it. :cough: Abbott :cough:
Does he have to?....No, he does not. And it's fascinating because you then have people begin their crazy thoughts and assumptions and will then just assume Rogan took the vaccine because he isn't telling anybody he did not take the vaccine...
I am not assuming anything. He still got it and is recovered from it. That's all that should matter is he is not dead.
But I guess, people suddenly care about Joe Rogans personal health and are so concerned for him...how nice of people to be concerned about his health and life. :)
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I think people see someone like Joe Rogan and Cam Newton who take care of themselves and watch what they put in their bodies not willing to take the vaccine but put everything else under the sun into their bodies to avoid taking the vaccine and that makes no sense. If anyone has ever watched the drug commercials you see all the possible crazy side affects.
That's why people question because they are confused to their thought process.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Rogan represents a fairly large slice of the problem. By taking everything under the sun we have no idea what helped, what hurt, and what was meaningless. That's a big part of the problem with Ivermectin. People are taking it on their own with no way of analyzing its efficacy other than "welp, they didn't die."
But it's important to point out, that's not "misplaced trust" or "conspiracy thinking", that's just bad scientific method. I can point to many examples of those smart, "right side of history"* people that have done the same thing and pointed to SUCCESS! with no idea how they got there. Anyone who's ever worked on a car or diagnosed an electrical circuit knows you only mess with one variable at a time so you can track the impacts.
* And no, I'm not taking sides, I'm pointing out that it doesn't matter WHAT side you're on, there are more things in play here than just ideology or some arbitrary measure of "intelligence".
You do realize that a massive slice of America is taking sides, right? I don't like it any more than you do, and we both agree that it's a big problem, but it is the realityw. All I did was point out that to the people taking sides Rogan didn't help matters. Your car analogy is bang-on. He got better and there's zero indication that ivermectin had anything to do with it, but a whole lot of Americans are going to see his recovery as proof, and they're going to feed the conspiracy that the government is trying to keep us from taking a cheap and effective cure so we'll take the expensive and experimental cures.
I think I of all people understand a massive slice of America is taking sides. It's what keeps me up at night. It is, in my opinion, the biggest issue facing America today. Not healthcare, not global warming, not China, not Afghanistan... our divisiveness. Because, in large part, our divisiveness will prevent us from ever truly getting any consensus or solution - even half-assed compromised solutions - for the rest of those issues.
But as to your point about people doing this stuff, sure, but it is what it is. I don't agree that we don't talk about things just because someone MIGHT take it to heart. Look what that's done for our national discussion on race; there is none. You either buy in to whatever is put on the table, or your a racist, full stop. I've seen it first hand. I've LIVED it first hand. I don't accept things just because someone says it, or FEELS it, and as a result, here, I've been called a racist. If someone is going to inject battery acid in their cock to solve COVID, they are going to do it whether Joe Rogan talks about it or not. And - and I think you will align with this - if they do, well, they can live with the consequences of what happens. That's called "personal accountability". And while we're not big on personal accountability in America - signing a student loan document is exactly the same as putting battery acid in your junk from a consequences standpoint - at some point we've got to draw the line.
-
Well bummer you need a subscription to read that WaPo article.
Joe Rogan is a mystery to me. He has some wonderful guests and was one of the first to get ahead of this COVID by interviewing Michael Olsterholm back at the beginning of this mess so he comes across as a man of science and rational. But when he has more controversial guests on, he can easily waffle to the side of his crazier guests. What's ironic is he has talked up building up your immune system so he eats right, exercises and doesn't really drink much alcohol and yet he still gets COVID and as someone wrote earlier, he took so much shit he'll never know what worked. :facepalm:
Maybe, just maybe, that's an "open mind". I don't know what you're thinking here, but it's hard to read that paragraph without my thinking you just assume he HAS to reject them as morons or not even have them on the show to begin with. Not slapping them with a stick is what debate/discussion is. "Silence is not consent"; we can talk about controversial topics without it being a de facto acceptance or endorsement. I don't listen to Joe Rogan (though not out of dislike for him; more due to time) but he strikes me as a curious guy who is interested in information, not just information that conforms to his (individual, subjective) worldview.
This is why I keep going back to 'wants'; it's all about what you WANT, and that's irrelevant. We're worried that one person (or a few, or 1,000; it matters not how many) will hear this nonsense and inject battery acid in their cock to fight COVID. But just as many people hear "Oh, vaccine solves everything!" and gets the vaccine with the same level of thought - that is to say, NONE - as the "crazies". You're okay with that lack of scrutiny because they did what you want them to do. For someone like me, who is worried about HOW we get there, it's just as much of a problem.
That's a reason why I find it baffling and sort of risky that people voluntarily, got the vaccine without consulting their doctor before taking the vaccine. They were crazy enough to take their risk and chances at this new technology vaccine.
I think people see someone like Joe Rogan and Cam Newton who take care of themselves and watch what they put in their bodies not willing to take the vaccine but put everything else under the sun into their bodies to avoid taking the vaccine and that makes no sense. If anyone has ever watched the drug commercials you see all the possible crazy side affects.
That's why people question because they are confused to their thought process.
Which shows that people do not think alike and people do not think the same as you. And people do not place the same values as you do on things that you consider valuable.
It's not confusing when you understand and accept that people are different and won't think like you do. You just have to come to a consensus to agree, disagree, or to agree to disagree, on what both of you think.
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Ben that's a given. What you should look at is why they would take something they know nothing about which is the reason they say they don't want to take the vaccine? Any sane person would question that.
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I think people see someone like Joe Rogan and Cam Newton who take care of themselves and watch what they put in their bodies not willing to take the vaccine but put everything else under the sun into their bodies to avoid taking the vaccine and that makes no sense. If anyone has ever watched the drug commercials you see all the possible crazy side affects.
That's why people question because they are confused to their thought process.
And you're probably right; but why is that anyone's issue here? We've been indoctrinated to accept that other people's thought processes are their own. Why is it different now? I know, I know "because it affects me!" but that's a shallow excuse unless you're in the same room with Cam Newton and/or Joe Rogan and they are breathing their cooties on you. EVERYTHING we do has some impact on other people, it's just a matter of directness, proximity, and priorities. We're so U.S./North American centric that we've lost sight of some of the magnitude of this stuff. HALF the world is not vaccinated; we're at 70% here in the States. If a pack of 1,000 or 10,000 or even 1,000,000 decide to not vaccinate, even if it's because aliens told them they'd grow a tail with a vaccine, the world isn't going to end as long as 3.7 BILLION people across the world don't even have vaccines on their radar.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Rogan represents a fairly large slice of the problem. By taking everything under the sun we have no idea what helped, what hurt, and what was meaningless. That's a big part of the problem with Ivermectin. People are taking it on their own with no way of analyzing its efficacy other than "welp, they didn't die."
But it's important to point out, that's not "misplaced trust" or "conspiracy thinking", that's just bad scientific method. I can point to many examples of those smart, "right side of history"* people that have done the same thing and pointed to SUCCESS! with no idea how they got there. Anyone who's ever worked on a car or diagnosed an electrical circuit knows you only mess with one variable at a time so you can track the impacts.
* And no, I'm not taking sides, I'm pointing out that it doesn't matter WHAT side you're on, there are more things in play here than just ideology or some arbitrary measure of "intelligence".
You do realize that a massive slice of America is taking sides, right? I don't like it any more than you do, and we both agree that it's a big problem, but it is the realityw. All I did was point out that to the people taking sides Rogan didn't help matters. Your car analogy is bang-on. He got better and there's zero indication that ivermectin had anything to do with it, but a whole lot of Americans are going to see his recovery as proof, and they're going to feed the conspiracy that the government is trying to keep us from taking a cheap and effective cure so we'll take the expensive and experimental cures.
I think I of all people understand a massive slice of America is taking sides. It's what keeps me up at night. It is, in my opinion, the biggest issue facing America today. Not healthcare, not global warming, not China, not Afghanistan... our divisiveness. Because, in large part, our divisiveness will prevent us from ever truly getting any consensus or solution - even half-assed compromised solutions - for the rest of those issues.
But as to your point about people doing this stuff, sure, but it is what it is. I don't agree that we don't talk about things just because someone MIGHT take it to heart. Look what that's done for our national discussion on race; there is none. You either buy in to whatever is put on the table, or your a racist, full stop. I've seen it first hand. I've LIVED it first hand. I don't accept things just because someone says it, or FEELS it, and as a result, here, I've been called a racist. If someone is going to inject battery acid in their cock to solve COVID, they are going to do it whether Joe Rogan talks about it or not. And - and I think you will align with this - if they do, well, they can live with the consequences of what happens. That's called "personal accountability". And while we're not big on personal accountability in America - signing a student loan document is exactly the same as putting battery acid in your junk from a consequences standpoint - at some point we've got to draw the line.
It's like saying people are sheep and will just do as their told. Without any understanding that humans are capable of thinking for ourselves.
I would say that if these people are sheep for following Joe Rogan, than many people are sheep for following the news media and doing what they say to do.
Ben that's a given. What you should look at is why they would take something they know nothing about which is the reason they say they don't want to take the vaccine? Any sane person would question that.
I wouldn't know, but I am not confused about it or perplexed as to why. If I want to know I would go ask them, why they think this product that is at tractor supply co. is the same as the product used for treating malaria, and inform them that these two are vastly different things.
Why is there no moral blame on the workers whom are selling the product and likely know darn well what these people are gonna do with it?...Why wasn't there a concern about people buying these things, which the store could lock them up, and you have to ask them to get it for you, like with spray paint and art supplies you can huff?...
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Well bummer you need a subscription to read that WaPo article.
http://archive.is is your friend
he took so much shit he'll never know what worked. :facepalm:
Or it could've been (vaccinated or not) just that he had a mild-ish case that subsided quickly, and nothing he took/did actually did anything. The fact that he felt he needed to 'throw the kitchen sink at it' suggests to me that he's not vaccinated himself.
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I think people see someone like Joe Rogan and Cam Newton who take care of themselves and watch what they put in their bodies not willing to take the vaccine but put everything else under the sun into their bodies to avoid taking the vaccine and that makes no sense. If anyone has ever watched the drug commercials you see all the possible crazy side affects.
That's why people question because they are confused to their thought process.
And you're probably right; but why is that anyone's issue here? We've been indoctrinated to accept that other people's thought processes are their own. Why is it different now? I know, I know "because it affects me!" but that's a shallow excuse unless you're in the same room with Cam Newton and/or Joe Rogan and they are breathing their cooties on you. EVERYTHING we do has some impact on other people, it's just a matter of directness, proximity, and priorities. We're so U.S./North American centric that we've lost sight of some of the magnitude of this stuff. HALF the world is not vaccinated; we're at 70% here in the States. If a pack of 1,000 or 10,000 or even 1,000,000 decide to not vaccinate, even if it's because aliens told them they'd grow a tail with a vaccine, the world isn't going to end as long as 3.7 BILLION people across the world don't even have vaccines on their radar.
The world will continue to spin. Humans will be like to Dodo...extinct.
But that hasn't happened. So we are apparently doing things right to be able to be this thriving to deplete and destroy our very home ourselves.
It's why I feel understanding history helps us humans learn about our survival and the things we humans have gone through just to continue thriving and living in this Earth.
If you want to look at the grand scale of humanity and deaths. This pandemic is just a drop in the ocean compared to the past and the many obstacles and difficulties our ancestors had to endure to survive.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Rogan represents a fairly large slice of the problem. By taking everything under the sun we have no idea what helped, what hurt, and what was meaningless. That's a big part of the problem with Ivermectin. People are taking it on their own with no way of analyzing its efficacy other than "welp, they didn't die."
But it's important to point out, that's not "misplaced trust" or "conspiracy thinking", that's just bad scientific method. I can point to many examples of those smart, "right side of history"* people that have done the same thing and pointed to SUCCESS! with no idea how they got there. Anyone who's ever worked on a car or diagnosed an electrical circuit knows you only mess with one variable at a time so you can track the impacts.
* And no, I'm not taking sides, I'm pointing out that it doesn't matter WHAT side you're on, there are more things in play here than just ideology or some arbitrary measure of "intelligence".
You do realize that a massive slice of America is taking sides, right? I don't like it any more than you do, and we both agree that it's a big problem, but it is the realityw. All I did was point out that to the people taking sides Rogan didn't help matters. Your car analogy is bang-on. He got better and there's zero indication that ivermectin had anything to do with it, but a whole lot of Americans are going to see his recovery as proof, and they're going to feed the conspiracy that the government is trying to keep us from taking a cheap and effective cure so we'll take the expensive and experimental cures.
I think I of all people understand a massive slice of America is taking sides. It's what keeps me up at night. It is, in my opinion, the biggest issue facing America today. Not healthcare, not global warming, not China, not Afghanistan... our divisiveness. Because, in large part, our divisiveness will prevent us from ever truly getting any consensus or solution - even half-assed compromised solutions - for the rest of those issues.
But as to your point about people doing this stuff, sure, but it is what it is. I don't agree that we don't talk about things just because someone MIGHT take it to heart. Look what that's done for our national discussion on race; there is none. You either buy in to whatever is put on the table, or your a racist, full stop. I've seen it first hand. I've LIVED it first hand. I don't accept things just because someone says it, or FEELS it, and as a result, here, I've been called a racist. If someone is going to inject battery acid in their cock to solve COVID, they are going to do it whether Joe Rogan talks about it or not. And - and I think you will align with this - if they do, well, they can live with the consequences of what happens. That's called "personal accountability". And while we're not big on personal accountability in America - signing a student loan document is exactly the same as putting battery acid in your junk from a consequences standpoint - at some point we've got to draw the line.
While I do align with it in general, I'm also more inclined to take a practical approach to it. We're not going to fix ourselves. This is the new reality, and we need to account for that. For one, there will be people who shoot battery acid into their dicks whether he tells them to or not, but there will be more if he does. Second, if those people wind up taking hospital beds that could be better used for people who didn't choose to injure themselves, it's no longer personal accountability. I'd say it's the opposite, in fact.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Rogan represents a fairly large slice of the problem. By taking everything under the sun we have no idea what helped, what hurt, and what was meaningless. That's a big part of the problem with Ivermectin. People are taking it on their own with no way of analyzing its efficacy other than "welp, they didn't die."
But it's important to point out, that's not "misplaced trust" or "conspiracy thinking", that's just bad scientific method. I can point to many examples of those smart, "right side of history"* people that have done the same thing and pointed to SUCCESS! with no idea how they got there. Anyone who's ever worked on a car or diagnosed an electrical circuit knows you only mess with one variable at a time so you can track the impacts.
* And no, I'm not taking sides, I'm pointing out that it doesn't matter WHAT side you're on, there are more things in play here than just ideology or some arbitrary measure of "intelligence".
You do realize that a massive slice of America is taking sides, right? I don't like it any more than you do, and we both agree that it's a big problem, but it is the realityw. All I did was point out that to the people taking sides Rogan didn't help matters. Your car analogy is bang-on. He got better and there's zero indication that ivermectin had anything to do with it, but a whole lot of Americans are going to see his recovery as proof, and they're going to feed the conspiracy that the government is trying to keep us from taking a cheap and effective cure so we'll take the expensive and experimental cures.
I think I of all people understand a massive slice of America is taking sides. It's what keeps me up at night. It is, in my opinion, the biggest issue facing America today. Not healthcare, not global warming, not China, not Afghanistan... our divisiveness. Because, in large part, our divisiveness will prevent us from ever truly getting any consensus or solution - even half-assed compromised solutions - for the rest of those issues.
But as to your point about people doing this stuff, sure, but it is what it is. I don't agree that we don't talk about things just because someone MIGHT take it to heart. Look what that's done for our national discussion on race; there is none. You either buy in to whatever is put on the table, or your a racist, full stop. I've seen it first hand. I've LIVED it first hand. I don't accept things just because someone says it, or FEELS it, and as a result, here, I've been called a racist. If someone is going to inject battery acid in their cock to solve COVID, they are going to do it whether Joe Rogan talks about it or not. And - and I think you will align with this - if they do, well, they can live with the consequences of what happens. That's called "personal accountability". And while we're not big on personal accountability in America - signing a student loan document is exactly the same as putting battery acid in your junk from a consequences standpoint - at some point we've got to draw the line.
While I do align with it in general, I'm also more inclined to take a practical approach to it. We're not going to fix ourselves. This is the new reality, and we need to account for that. For one, there will be people who shoot battery acid into their dicks whether he tells them to or not, but there will be more if he does. Second, if those people wind up taking hospital beds that could be better used for people who didn't choose to injure themselves, it's no longer personal accountability. I'd say it's the opposite, in fact.
Okay, like those people that did the Tide Pod challenge. The people that end up with Alcohol Poisoning, the Drug addict overdosing in his room, the obese man who ate the inferno hot wing that clogged his arteries. All these people take up hospital beds that could be used for people that didn't injure themselves. Should we deny them access because they chose to be stupid and ignore the signs telling them not to do it or they will die or be seriously injured? So these people that injured themselves is not personal accountability?
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Saw this, he won't take the vaccine, but he trust the antibody cocktail and the ivermectin. We're doomed.
The article I read said he won't tell anyone if he has or hasn't taken the vaccine. Do you know for a fact he hasn't gotten it? I know he's skeptical but that doesn't mean he didn't get it. :cough: Abbott :cough:
Does he have to?....No, he does not. And it's fascinating because you then have people begin their crazy thoughts and assumptions and will then just assume Rogan took the vaccine because he isn't telling anybody he did not take the vaccine...
I am not assuming anything. He still got it and is recovered from it. That's all that should matter is he is not dead.
It matters because he has a voice that people listen to. And it matters to form an honest and realistic opinion on the matter. If he's hiding part of the equation, it muddies the water on whatever you or I think about him. Of course he doesn't have to, but it's pretty odd for him to admit to all the other things but keep another hidden.
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Hospitals are there to treat the seriously ill and the injured. No matter how much we what to hold people accountable for their actions and choices. A hospital should be there to treat you and should be there to make you better and send you off home to live life again.
Healthcare workers should be there for the patient and treat the patient with care to help the patient uplift their spirits so the patient can get better.
Sadly, hospitals do not work this way. They are judgement places, because the healthcare workers get upset at the amount of people that are in the hospital because of stupid choices. Choices that led to them being in the hospital where the healthcare workers have to treat them. Which is what has led to medical malpractice with the doctor and the nurse, as they instill their own thoughts and assumptions and judgements on the patient for their stupid decision to jump when the car was running full speed to see if running against the direction the car is driving will make you stop (Beavis and Butthead).
Some get upset when their patients keep going into hospitals because they don't listen to their doctors advice and continue doing what they do. Further using up beds and valuable resources that could be spent on someone who needs it.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Rogan represents a fairly large slice of the problem. By taking everything under the sun we have no idea what helped, what hurt, and what was meaningless. That's a big part of the problem with Ivermectin. People are taking it on their own with no way of analyzing its efficacy other than "welp, they didn't die."
But it's important to point out, that's not "misplaced trust" or "conspiracy thinking", that's just bad scientific method. I can point to many examples of those smart, "right side of history"* people that have done the same thing and pointed to SUCCESS! with no idea how they got there. Anyone who's ever worked on a car or diagnosed an electrical circuit knows you only mess with one variable at a time so you can track the impacts.
* And no, I'm not taking sides, I'm pointing out that it doesn't matter WHAT side you're on, there are more things in play here than just ideology or some arbitrary measure of "intelligence".
You do realize that a massive slice of America is taking sides, right? I don't like it any more than you do, and we both agree that it's a big problem, but it is the realityw. All I did was point out that to the people taking sides Rogan didn't help matters. Your car analogy is bang-on. He got better and there's zero indication that ivermectin had anything to do with it, but a whole lot of Americans are going to see his recovery as proof, and they're going to feed the conspiracy that the government is trying to keep us from taking a cheap and effective cure so we'll take the expensive and experimental cures.
I think I of all people understand a massive slice of America is taking sides. It's what keeps me up at night. It is, in my opinion, the biggest issue facing America today. Not healthcare, not global warming, not China, not Afghanistan... our divisiveness. Because, in large part, our divisiveness will prevent us from ever truly getting any consensus or solution - even half-assed compromised solutions - for the rest of those issues.
But as to your point about people doing this stuff, sure, but it is what it is. I don't agree that we don't talk about things just because someone MIGHT take it to heart. Look what that's done for our national discussion on race; there is none. You either buy in to whatever is put on the table, or your a racist, full stop. I've seen it first hand. I've LIVED it first hand. I don't accept things just because someone says it, or FEELS it, and as a result, here, I've been called a racist. If someone is going to inject battery acid in their cock to solve COVID, they are going to do it whether Joe Rogan talks about it or not. And - and I think you will align with this - if they do, well, they can live with the consequences of what happens. That's called "personal accountability". And while we're not big on personal accountability in America - signing a student loan document is exactly the same as putting battery acid in your junk from a consequences standpoint - at some point we've got to draw the line.
While I do align with it in general, I'm also more inclined to take a practical approach to it. We're not going to fix ourselves. This is the new reality, and we need to account for that. For one, there will be people who shoot battery acid into their dicks whether he tells them to or not, but there will be more if he does. Second, if those people wind up taking hospital beds that could be better used for people who didn't choose to injure themselves, it's no longer personal accountability. I'd say it's the opposite, in fact.
Okay, like those people that did the Tide Pod challenge. The people that end up with Alcohol Poisoning, the Drug addict overdosing in his room, the obese man who ate the inferno hot wing that clogged his arteries. All these people take up hospital beds that could be used for people that didn't injure themselves. Should we deny them access because they chose to be stupid and ignore the signs telling them not to do it or they will die or be seriously injured? So these people that injured themselves is not personal accountability?
When hospitals are at 90% capacity because of people eating Tide pods? Fuck yeah. You're also skipping a different part of the problem which is that addiction and obesity aren't always voluntary. We regard those as illnesses. If the antivaxers want to classify themselves as suffering from a mental illness then perhaps I'll change my point of view, but of course, just being smarter than everybody else doesn't qualify you for the loony bin.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Saw this, he won't take the vaccine, but he trust the antibody cocktail and the ivermectin. We're doomed.
The article I read said he won't tell anyone if he has or hasn't taken the vaccine. Do you know for a fact he hasn't gotten it? I know he's skeptical but that doesn't mean he didn't get it. :cough: Abbott :cough:
Does he have to?....No, he does not. And it's fascinating because you then have people begin their crazy thoughts and assumptions and will then just assume Rogan took the vaccine because he isn't telling anybody he did not take the vaccine...
I am not assuming anything. He still got it and is recovered from it. That's all that should matter is he is not dead.
It matters because he has a voice that people listen to. And it matters to form an honest and realistic opinion on the matter. If he's hiding part of the equation, it muddies the water on whatever you or I think about him. Of course he doesn't have to, but it's pretty odd for him to admit to all the other things but keep another hidden.
It's still not his fault. That's like saying it's the video games fault for inciting violence because pikachu said "bomb the harbor". Or blaming Lil Nas X for making boys gay, or Cardi B for making girls whores by releasing "WAP".
They are influencers just the same as Joe Rogan. Yet, people surely did not have a problem with saying..."It's personal accountability if your child ends up being violent, or revealing he's gay, or gets into a stripping job, and not the influence of Lil Nas X's music or Cardi B's Thot WAP.
Basically, it's their own damn fault for following and listening to someone else without thinking for oneself and considering maybe that person I am listening to is saying his opinion and I should not take it as fact. This is the product and consequence of our education system not teaching children critical thinking skills and how to analyze.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Rogan represents a fairly large slice of the problem. By taking everything under the sun we have no idea what helped, what hurt, and what was meaningless. That's a big part of the problem with Ivermectin. People are taking it on their own with no way of analyzing its efficacy other than "welp, they didn't die."
But it's important to point out, that's not "misplaced trust" or "conspiracy thinking", that's just bad scientific method. I can point to many examples of those smart, "right side of history"* people that have done the same thing and pointed to SUCCESS! with no idea how they got there. Anyone who's ever worked on a car or diagnosed an electrical circuit knows you only mess with one variable at a time so you can track the impacts.
* And no, I'm not taking sides, I'm pointing out that it doesn't matter WHAT side you're on, there are more things in play here than just ideology or some arbitrary measure of "intelligence".
You do realize that a massive slice of America is taking sides, right? I don't like it any more than you do, and we both agree that it's a big problem, but it is the realityw. All I did was point out that to the people taking sides Rogan didn't help matters. Your car analogy is bang-on. He got better and there's zero indication that ivermectin had anything to do with it, but a whole lot of Americans are going to see his recovery as proof, and they're going to feed the conspiracy that the government is trying to keep us from taking a cheap and effective cure so we'll take the expensive and experimental cures.
I think I of all people understand a massive slice of America is taking sides. It's what keeps me up at night. It is, in my opinion, the biggest issue facing America today. Not healthcare, not global warming, not China, not Afghanistan... our divisiveness. Because, in large part, our divisiveness will prevent us from ever truly getting any consensus or solution - even half-assed compromised solutions - for the rest of those issues.
But as to your point about people doing this stuff, sure, but it is what it is. I don't agree that we don't talk about things just because someone MIGHT take it to heart. Look what that's done for our national discussion on race; there is none. You either buy in to whatever is put on the table, or your a racist, full stop. I've seen it first hand. I've LIVED it first hand. I don't accept things just because someone says it, or FEELS it, and as a result, here, I've been called a racist. If someone is going to inject battery acid in their cock to solve COVID, they are going to do it whether Joe Rogan talks about it or not. And - and I think you will align with this - if they do, well, they can live with the consequences of what happens. That's called "personal accountability". And while we're not big on personal accountability in America - signing a student loan document is exactly the same as putting battery acid in your junk from a consequences standpoint - at some point we've got to draw the line.
While I do align with it in general, I'm also more inclined to take a practical approach to it. We're not going to fix ourselves. This is the new reality, and we need to account for that. For one, there will be people who shoot battery acid into their dicks whether he tells them to or not, but there will be more if he does. Second, if those people wind up taking hospital beds that could be better used for people who didn't choose to injure themselves, it's no longer personal accountability. I'd say it's the opposite, in fact.
And that's where I struggle. I hear you, I fully understand you, and I'm not against the pragmatic (that's why I'm for single payer healthcare). It's funny, because I swear to God, last night I got a call from my dad (82). Mom (84) blood pressure was high so he called EMS; they came and checked her out and Dad asked if they would transport her for a more in-depth review, and their answer? "Not on your life. We have three people to a room with COVID; there's nothing here that is more life-threatening than if she gets COVID. Stay home, call your primary doctor in the morning." Now, that may have been his elevator speech to placate a worried husband, but still.
Having said that, we've never denied resources from people before for stupid decisions. 42% of the American population is obese. Not all of them are "ill". That costs us about $150 BILLION a year. Each obese person's healthcare is about $1500 more (on average) per year. Yet, we worry about "fat shaming" and there are countless programs out there about how it's "normal" and to be tolerated. Hell, there are people who's entire career is based on them being obese (Ashley Graham; Whitney Way Thore, who is on a reality TV show to show her "journey" to lose weight. In seven years, from 2014 to now, seven seasons and 98 episodes, she's lost a grand total of 10 pounds, from 380 to 370.). I get it; it's not a direct analogy, but the point is, we are all over the map on this.
If "influencers" mattered as much as people want us to believe, there would be no racism. There would be no homophobia. We've gone to great lengths to sterilize our discourse on this stuff, and yet it continues to exist, regardless. We as a species are obsessed with making pat, trite connections to further our goal. Race-crimes increased after Trump came into office.... must be Trump as a racist indoctrinating his followers. Oh, wait, what? They were increasing in the tail end of Obama's presidency?.... must be because Obama is black and it's a reaction to that. Well, that's not "influencing", but let's not quibble! We have our rationale (note: the rationale that is NOT us, that has no accountability for our marginalizing and rejecting these people and making them more and more desperate to be heard). Forget about all the other factors that have been PROVEN, by science, to contribute to racism - insecurity, maringalization, ostracization, all things that have been increasing in our society for the better part of two decades. No WONDER racism is a hotbutton issue. But there's no cute shortcut to increasing our mental and intellectual well-being, unlike the endlessly hilarious "tRump" and "Drumpf" and "The Orange One" tweets (aside: whenever I see one of those I hear the Richard Rawlings "Wooooo!" in my head, because I can imagine the person writing it thinking they just scored a huge blow against Trump).
I know that was a tangent, that's why it's small, but even if we can't fix ourselves - and I believe, with a will there's a way - we can at least do our part to make sure we don't make the problem worse. "Influencers" are a scapegoat, and a way to pass blame, IMO.
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Well bummer you need a subscription to read that WaPo article.
Joe Rogan is a mystery to me. He has some wonderful guests and was one of the first to get ahead of this COVID by interviewing Michael Olsterholm back at the beginning of this mess so he comes across as a man of science and rational. But when he has more controversial guests on, he can easily waffle to the side of his crazier guests. What's ironic is he has talked up building up your immune system so he eats right, exercises and doesn't really drink much alcohol and yet he still gets COVID and as someone wrote earlier, he took so much shit he'll never know what worked. :facepalm:
Maybe, just maybe, that's an "open mind". I don't know what you're thinking here, but it's hard to read that paragraph without my thinking you just assume he HAS to reject them as morons or not even have them on the show to begin with. Not slapping them with a stick is what debate/discussion is. "Silence is not consent"; we can talk about controversial topics without it being a de facto acceptance or endorsement. I don't listen to Joe Rogan (though not out of dislike for him; more due to time) but he strikes me as a curious guy who is interested in information, not just information that conforms to his (individual, subjective) worldview.
This is why I keep going back to 'wants'; it's all about what you WANT, and that's irrelevant. We're worried that one person (or a few, or 1,000; it matters not how many) will hear this nonsense and inject battery acid in their cock to fight COVID. But just as many people hear "Oh, vaccine solves everything!" and gets the vaccine with the same level of thought - that is to say, NONE - as the "crazies". You're okay with that lack of scrutiny because they did what you want them to do. For someone like me, who is worried about HOW we get there, it's just as much of a problem.
I think you "want" to read something into my post that's not there. I am a regular listener of Rogan and he can surely waffle on subjects. He has had Elon Musk and NDTyson and rave about science and then the next week he questions the vaccines and says that teenagers should not get the vaccine. That was so extreme that he backpedaled the next week. Maybe you should listen to his broadcast and see what I am talking about.
-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/01/joe-rogan-covid/
:facepalm:
Rogan represents a fairly large slice of the problem. By taking everything under the sun we have no idea what helped, what hurt, and what was meaningless. That's a big part of the problem with Ivermectin. People are taking it on their own with no way of analyzing its efficacy other than "welp, they didn't die."
But it's important to point out, that's not "misplaced trust" or "conspiracy thinking", that's just bad scientific method. I can point to many examples of those smart, "right side of history"* people that have done the same thing and pointed to SUCCESS! with no idea how they got there. Anyone who's ever worked on a car or diagnosed an electrical circuit knows you only mess with one variable at a time so you can track the impacts.
* And no, I'm not taking sides, I'm pointing out that it doesn't matter WHAT side you're on, there are more things in play here than just ideology or some arbitrary measure of "intelligence".
You do realize that a massive slice of America is taking sides, right? I don't like it any more than you do, and we both agree that it's a big problem, but it is the realityw. All I did was point out that to the people taking sides Rogan didn't help matters. Your car analogy is bang-on. He got better and there's zero indication that ivermectin had anything to do with it, but a whole lot of Americans are going to see his recovery as proof, and they're going to feed the conspiracy that the government is trying to keep us from taking a cheap and effective cure so we'll take the expensive and experimental cures.
I think I of all people understand a massive slice of America is taking sides. It's what keeps me up at night. It is, in my opinion, the biggest issue facing America today. Not healthcare, not global warming, not China, not Afghanistan... our divisiveness. Because, in large part, our divisiveness will prevent us from ever truly getting any consensus or solution - even half-assed compromised solutions - for the rest of those issues.
But as to your point about people doing this stuff, sure, but it is what it is. I don't agree that we don't talk about things just because someone MIGHT take it to heart. Look what that's done for our national discussion on race; there is none. You either buy in to whatever is put on the table, or your a racist, full stop. I've seen it first hand. I've LIVED it first hand. I don't accept things just because someone says it, or FEELS it, and as a result, here, I've been called a racist. If someone is going to inject battery acid in their cock to solve COVID, they are going to do it whether Joe Rogan talks about it or not. And - and I think you will align with this - if they do, well, they can live with the consequences of what happens. That's called "personal accountability". And while we're not big on personal accountability in America - signing a student loan document is exactly the same as putting battery acid in your junk from a consequences standpoint - at some point we've got to draw the line.
While I do align with it in general, I'm also more inclined to take a practical approach to it. We're not going to fix ourselves. This is the new reality, and we need to account for that. For one, there will be people who shoot battery acid into their dicks whether he tells them to or not, but there will be more if he does. Second, if those people wind up taking hospital beds that could be better used for people who didn't choose to injure themselves, it's no longer personal accountability. I'd say it's the opposite, in fact.
Okay, like those people that did the Tide Pod challenge. The people that end up with Alcohol Poisoning, the Drug addict overdosing in his room, the obese man who ate the inferno hot wing that clogged his arteries. All these people take up hospital beds that could be used for people that didn't injure themselves. Should we deny them access because they chose to be stupid and ignore the signs telling them not to do it or they will die or be seriously injured? So these people that injured themselves is not personal accountability?
When hospitals are at 90% capacity because of people eating Tide pods? Fuck yeah. You're also skipping a different part of the problem which is that addiction and obesity aren't always voluntary. We regard those as illnesses. If the antivaxers want to classify themselves as suffering from a mental illness then perhaps I'll change my point of view, but of course, just being smarter than everybody else doesn't qualify you for the loony bin.
The odd thing about mental illness. Is that the data shows that a lot of people suffer from some sort of mental illness. Depression and anxiety are mental illness, and these pandemic lockdowns has caused some peoples depression and anxiety to heighten to the point where they committed suicide.
It would be interesting to weigh these Covid-19 deaths with the other deaths.
But it's all a death numbers game that is playing on the human emotion of fear and concern for oneself. The ignorance of the masses in not understanding their own body. And the desperate need of humans to do what is good.
We are living in the Covid-19 play. And if you don't abide by these rules of the game, you can not play and can not pass go and collect $200.
I would only like to know if Joe Rogan is vaccinated or not to show us whether.. unvaccinated people can get mild symptoms, or if we was lying to the masses and he did get vaccinated, hence why his symptoms were mild. That is all. But I also, am not getting all up in arms upset because he is not disclosing that information. It's his health and he doesn't have to tell the public anything. The same as how a band doesn't have to tell us the reasons why so and so left the band.
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I think people see someone like Joe Rogan and Cam Newton who take care of themselves and watch what they put in their bodies not willing to take the vaccine but put everything else under the sun into their bodies to avoid taking the vaccine and that makes no sense. If anyone has ever watched the drug commercials you see all the possible crazy side affects.
That's why people question because they are confused to their thought process.
Especially since the opinion of the overwhelming majority of the medical community, the people who study and know this more than anyone, especially an NFL qb or a talk show host, suggest the simple path of vaccination.
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Well bummer you need a subscription to read that WaPo article.
Joe Rogan is a mystery to me. He has some wonderful guests and was one of the first to get ahead of this COVID by interviewing Michael Olsterholm back at the beginning of this mess so he comes across as a man of science and rational. But when he has more controversial guests on, he can easily waffle to the side of his crazier guests. What's ironic is he has talked up building up your immune system so he eats right, exercises and doesn't really drink much alcohol and yet he still gets COVID and as someone wrote earlier, he took so much shit he'll never know what worked. :facepalm:
Maybe, just maybe, that's an "open mind". I don't know what you're thinking here, but it's hard to read that paragraph without my thinking you just assume he HAS to reject them as morons or not even have them on the show to begin with. Not slapping them with a stick is what debate/discussion is. "Silence is not consent"; we can talk about controversial topics without it being a de facto acceptance or endorsement. I don't listen to Joe Rogan (though not out of dislike for him; more due to time) but he strikes me as a curious guy who is interested in information, not just information that conforms to his (individual, subjective) worldview.
This is why I keep going back to 'wants'; it's all about what you WANT, and that's irrelevant. We're worried that one person (or a few, or 1,000; it matters not how many) will hear this nonsense and inject battery acid in their cock to fight COVID. But just as many people hear "Oh, vaccine solves everything!" and gets the vaccine with the same level of thought - that is to say, NONE - as the "crazies". You're okay with that lack of scrutiny because they did what you want them to do. For someone like me, who is worried about HOW we get there, it's just as much of a problem.
I think you "want" to read something into my post that's not there. I am a regular listener of Rogan and he can surely waffle on subjects. He has had Elon Musk and NDTyson and rave about science and then the next week he questions the vaccines and says that teenagers should not get the vaccine. That was so extreme that he backpedaled the next week. Maybe you should listen to his broadcast and see what I am talking about.
Those are not mutually exclusive, except in messaging. I am a licensed professional engineer; I have an MBA in international finance, and have over twenty years experience in remediating contaminated property (not to mention a law degree). I would consider myself a man of science.
I have questions about the vaccine (though I opted to get it done) and I am personally undecided as to whether teenager SHOULD or SHOULD NOT get the vaccine (the one child I am responsible for is 20 and made the decision - yes - for herself). Are you suggesting I'm extreme? You better check your gauge then. Having honest questions is not "extreme" and in fact ought to be more widely accepted. How do we learn if we don't question? How do we expand our intellectual horizons without curiosity?
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I think people see someone like Joe Rogan and Cam Newton who take care of themselves and watch what they put in their bodies not willing to take the vaccine but put everything else under the sun into their bodies to avoid taking the vaccine and that makes no sense. If anyone has ever watched the drug commercials you see all the possible crazy side affects.
That's why people question because they are confused to their thought process.
And you're probably right; but why is that anyone's issue here? We've been indoctrinated to accept that other people's thought processes are their own. Why is it different now? I know, I know "because it affects me!" but that's a shallow excuse unless you're in the same room with Cam Newton and/or Joe Rogan and they are breathing their cooties on you. EVERYTHING we do has some impact on other people, it's just a matter of directness, proximity, and priorities. We're so U.S./North American centric that we've lost sight of some of the magnitude of this stuff. HALF the world is not vaccinated; we're at 70% here in the States. If a pack of 1,000 or 10,000 or even 1,000,000 decide to not vaccinate, even if it's because aliens told them they'd grow a tail with a vaccine, the world isn't going to end as long as 3.7 BILLION people across the world don't even have vaccines on their radar.
I would answer that a pandemic is bigger than what they perceive as lost freedoms. This isn't something that people will force decades to come. Like the flu shot. How many people talk about people's right with the flu shot these days?
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I think people see someone like Joe Rogan and Cam Newton who take care of themselves and watch what they put in their bodies not willing to take the vaccine but put everything else under the sun into their bodies to avoid taking the vaccine and that makes no sense. If anyone has ever watched the drug commercials you see all the possible crazy side affects.
That's why people question because they are confused to their thought process.
Especially since the opinion of the overwhelming majority of the medical community, the people who study and know this more than anyone, especially an NFL qb or a talk show host, suggest the simple path of vaccination.
It's a trust issue. As people here in America do not trust certain doctors as much either. Some see certain doctors as pill pushers and in it for the money.
Which is how the mindset of the world is...focused on monetary worth more so than the worth of human life and care. Stads posted the cost of obese people being in the billions a year. That says a lot. How can we place monetary value and base our actions and decision of health without that interfering with our survival?
It's interfering in the hospitals not being able to handle the vast amount of unhealthy people, or more the people needing medical care.
If we want medical care for all. That means accepting everyone, regardless of how or the stupid decision that made them need medical care. It's could be done out of the kindness of people's hearts. But this world relies on monetary values, so the healthcare worker needs to be paid first. And would one care for a person if they weren't making that amount of money. My answer is a big, "hell no." Just look at how travel nurses upped their prices so a hospital can have enough workers to handle the amount of people needing medical care.
People want to talk about ethics and caring for others, fine...let's talk about how Heathcare Workers demand more money in a time of need and health care. If they were moral ethical people, they wouldn't care about the money and would care for people out of the kindness of their hearts and passion for health care.
It's why I find mentioning and screaming about ethics and morals does not help at all during these times.
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I think people see someone like Joe Rogan and Cam Newton who take care of themselves and watch what they put in their bodies not willing to take the vaccine but put everything else under the sun into their bodies to avoid taking the vaccine and that makes no sense. If anyone has ever watched the drug commercials you see all the possible crazy side affects.
That's why people question because they are confused to their thought process.
And you're probably right; but why is that anyone's issue here? We've been indoctrinated to accept that other people's thought processes are their own. Why is it different now? I know, I know "because it affects me!" but that's a shallow excuse unless you're in the same room with Cam Newton and/or Joe Rogan and they are breathing their cooties on you. EVERYTHING we do has some impact on other people, it's just a matter of directness, proximity, and priorities. We're so U.S./North American centric that we've lost sight of some of the magnitude of this stuff. HALF the world is not vaccinated; we're at 70% here in the States. If a pack of 1,000 or 10,000 or even 1,000,000 decide to not vaccinate, even if it's because aliens told them they'd grow a tail with a vaccine, the world isn't going to end as long as 3.7 BILLION people across the world don't even have vaccines on their radar.
I would answer that a pandemic is bigger than what they perceive as lost freedoms. This isn't something that people will force decades to come. Like the flu shot. How many people talk about people's right with the flu shot these days?
They didn't coerce people into taking that flu vaccine either. That's the issue at hand here. The coercion involved in getting people to take their products. Don't forget, these vaccines are still considered products that have monetary value. Why are we not allowed to get the other forms of the vaccines from other countries? Supply, and Pfizer is one of the biggest suppliers of drugs in the pharmaceutical market. So they easily could handle the demand for supply.
The issue people have is the way these pharmaceutical companies have had issues with their past products before. For them, they don't trust these companies.
Now, if these things cost money, these vaccines are not free? Who is paying for these supposed "free vaccines" that are easily available? If the government bought a certain amount of supply, then I could see why they're so adamant about getting people to take the vaccine as they do not want to lose out on the money they played to these pharmaceutical companies. If they did not, then how is it being paid for?
That's one issue and question I have about these vaccine rollouts.
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I think people see someone like Joe Rogan and Cam Newton who take care of themselves and watch what they put in their bodies not willing to take the vaccine but put everything else under the sun into their bodies to avoid taking the vaccine and that makes no sense. If anyone has ever watched the drug commercials you see all the possible crazy side affects.
That's why people question because they are confused to their thought process.
And you're probably right; but why is that anyone's issue here? We've been indoctrinated to accept that other people's thought processes are their own. Why is it different now? I know, I know "because it affects me!" but that's a shallow excuse unless you're in the same room with Cam Newton and/or Joe Rogan and they are breathing their cooties on you. EVERYTHING we do has some impact on other people, it's just a matter of directness, proximity, and priorities. We're so U.S./North American centric that we've lost sight of some of the magnitude of this stuff. HALF the world is not vaccinated; we're at 70% here in the States. If a pack of 1,000 or 10,000 or even 1,000,000 decide to not vaccinate, even if it's because aliens told them they'd grow a tail with a vaccine, the world isn't going to end as long as 3.7 BILLION people across the world don't even have vaccines on their radar.
I would answer that a pandemic is bigger than what they perceive as lost freedoms. This isn't something that people will force decades to come. Like the flu shot. How many people talk about people's right with the flu shot these days?
I don't disagree. But there's a saying. I forgot what that saying was - :) :) :) - but the gist is, it's easy to stick to your principles when there's nothing at stake. It's hard when there is more at stake. Think back to the Patriot Act; it's a similar discussion. Was the threat of Al Qaeda bigger than lost freedoms? To some it was, to others it wasn't. And that was the debate at the time. I don't think I'm violating my personal prohibition on stereotyping if I point out that it's a reasonable guess that the sides on this debate have switched.
That doesn't tell me one side is right, it tells me that we have competing priorities we HAVE to account for in a democracy.
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Well bummer you need a subscription to read that WaPo article.
Joe Rogan is a mystery to me. He has some wonderful guests and was one of the first to get ahead of this COVID by interviewing Michael Olsterholm back at the beginning of this mess so he comes across as a man of science and rational. But when he has more controversial guests on, he can easily waffle to the side of his crazier guests. What's ironic is he has talked up building up your immune system so he eats right, exercises and doesn't really drink much alcohol and yet he still gets COVID and as someone wrote earlier, he took so much shit he'll never know what worked. :facepalm:
Maybe, just maybe, that's an "open mind". I don't know what you're thinking here, but it's hard to read that paragraph without my thinking you just assume he HAS to reject them as morons or not even have them on the show to begin with. Not slapping them with a stick is what debate/discussion is. "Silence is not consent"; we can talk about controversial topics without it being a de facto acceptance or endorsement. I don't listen to Joe Rogan (though not out of dislike for him; more due to time) but he strikes me as a curious guy who is interested in information, not just information that conforms to his (individual, subjective) worldview.
This is why I keep going back to 'wants'; it's all about what you WANT, and that's irrelevant. We're worried that one person (or a few, or 1,000; it matters not how many) will hear this nonsense and inject battery acid in their cock to fight COVID. But just as many people hear "Oh, vaccine solves everything!" and gets the vaccine with the same level of thought - that is to say, NONE - as the "crazies". You're okay with that lack of scrutiny because they did what you want them to do. For someone like me, who is worried about HOW we get there, it's just as much of a problem.
I think you "want" to read something into my post that's not there. I am a regular listener of Rogan and he can surely waffle on subjects. He has had Elon Musk and NDTyson and rave about science and then the next week he questions the vaccines and says that teenagers should not get the vaccine. That was so extreme that he backpedaled the next week. Maybe you should listen to his broadcast and see what I am talking about.
Those are not mutually exclusive, except in messaging. I am a licensed professional engineer; I have an MBA in international finance, and have over twenty years experience in remediating contaminated property (not to mention a law degree). I would consider myself a man of science.
I have questions about the vaccine (though I opted to get it done) and I am personally undecided as to whether teenager SHOULD or SHOULD NOT get the vaccine (the one child I am responsible for is 20 and made the decision - yes - for herself). Are you suggesting I'm extreme? You better check your gauge then. Having honest questions is not "extreme" and in fact ought to be more widely accepted. How do we learn if we don't question? How do we expand our intellectual horizons without curiosity?
I am not suggesting your anything. Where did you get that in my post? You're just "wanting" to find "something to argue about". Check my gauge? Check your reading comprehension. This has nothing to do with what you said but with what Rogan said. Geez..... :angry:
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I think people see someone like Joe Rogan and Cam Newton who take care of themselves and watch what they put in their bodies not willing to take the vaccine but put everything else under the sun into their bodies to avoid taking the vaccine and that makes no sense. If anyone has ever watched the drug commercials you see all the possible crazy side affects.
That's why people question because they are confused to their thought process.
And you're probably right; but why is that anyone's issue here? We've been indoctrinated to accept that other people's thought processes are their own. Why is it different now? I know, I know "because it affects me!" but that's a shallow excuse unless you're in the same room with Cam Newton and/or Joe Rogan and they are breathing their cooties on you. EVERYTHING we do has some impact on other people, it's just a matter of directness, proximity, and priorities. We're so U.S./North American centric that we've lost sight of some of the magnitude of this stuff. HALF the world is not vaccinated; we're at 70% here in the States. If a pack of 1,000 or 10,000 or even 1,000,000 decide to not vaccinate, even if it's because aliens told them they'd grow a tail with a vaccine, the world isn't going to end as long as 3.7 BILLION people across the world don't even have vaccines on their radar.
I would answer that a pandemic is bigger than what they perceive as lost freedoms. This isn't something that people will force decades to come. Like the flu shot. How many people talk about people's right with the flu shot these days?
I don't disagree. But there's a saying. I forgot what that saying was - :) :) :) - but the gist is, it's easy to stick to your principles when there's nothing at stake. It's hard when there is more at stake. Think back to the Patriot Act; it's a similar discussion. Was the threat of Al Qaeda bigger than lost freedoms? To some it was, to others it wasn't. And that was the debate at the time. I don't think I'm violating my personal prohibition on stereotyping if I point out that it's a reasonable guess that the sides on this debate have switched.
That doesn't tell me one side is right, it tells me that we have competing priorities we HAVE to account for in a democracy.
I have friends who completely against the vaccine. Hell, my sister in law, her 3 children who are adults and have children as well. Not my place to tell them what to do or not todo. Their choice. I just worry about consequences if one of their children get sick. Still, not my place even though I disagree.
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https://law.shu.edu/news/covid-19-vaccines-who-will-pay-for-them.cfm
Healthcare industry attorney Maria D. Garcia predicts private health insurance companies will cover a COVID-19 vaccine just as they have covered COVID-19 testing. Garcia explains private companies will likely face public and government pressure to cover a vaccine, and if private companies choose not to cover a vaccine, Garcia anticipates they will experience a publicity “nightmare.”
Medicaid programs, unlike Medicare or private health insurance plans, offer no such assurances. The House of Representatives passed the Health and Economic Recovery Omnibus Emergency Solutions (HEROES) Act to mandate Medicaid cover a COVID-19 vaccine without charging beneficiaries cost-sharing amounts. The HEROES Act would also cover a vaccine for uninsured patients. The Senate has not voted on the Act. In the absence of federal regulations, states have broad discretion to determine the availability and cost-sharing amount to Medicaid beneficiaries.
Unlike cost-sharing, which would give some of the vaccine’s costs to beneficiaries through payments like deductibles or copayments, vaccine price controls would determine a maximum price pharmaceutical companies can charge public and private insurers for a COVID-19 vaccine. Though Congress has not set any price controls, the Coronavirus Preparedness and Response Supplemental Appropriations Act declared the Health and Human Services (HHS) Secretary has the authority to ensure a COVID-19 vaccine “will be affordable in the commercial market.” The current HHS Secretary, Alex Azar, however, said he cannot guarantee price controls for a COVID-19 vaccine, meaning he cannot guarantee how much pharmaceutical companies will bill insurers, because “we need the private sector to invest” in vaccine development. Since pharmaceutical companies price drugs based on “benefits rather than production costs,” LA Times business writer David Lazarus predicts pharmaceutical companies could price a COVID-19 vaccine astronomically high.
Without price controls, the New York Times compared the potentially high price of a COVID-19 vaccine to the unaffordable, and consequently inaccessible, $10,000 per year AZT drug used to treat the virus that causes AIDS.
Even if fully insured private health insurance plans cover the cost of a vaccine, they may pass these absorbed costs onto beneficiaries in the form of higher premiums. Self-funded group health plans, where employers establish a trust fund to pay employee claims, may face economic hardship from paying these exorbitant costs too.
If patients go to a clinic that is out of their insurance network, they will have to front the cost of a vaccine and seek reimbursement from their insurer. As unemployment rates rise, the number of people who have lost their health insurance also likely rose. Uninsured patients will have to fund the cost of a vaccine independently. High vaccine prices may discourage patients from getting vaccinated and prove to be a significant barrier.
Found this interesting article discussing who's paying for the vaccines. Time to see if that is still the prediction of Healthcare Industry attorney Maria D Garcia.
Edit: Didn't have to go far and it didn't take long.... :lol
https://www.wavy.com/covid-19-vaccine/dose-of-clarity-who-is-paying-for-the-covid-19-vaccine/
Here’s how vaccine funding works. The federal government prohibits providers from billing patients for the vaccine or administering it. That’s because federal funding from the CARES Act is paying for the vaccine itself. But that’s not the only cost involved.
Whether you get your shot at a doctor’s office, pharmacy or health clinic – administering the vaccine is an expense for the provider. How that is covered depends on your insurance. If you have private insurance, the company is on the hook for that cost. Medicare will cover people on its plan. The Federal government funds will cover those who are uninsured.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/no-cost.html
COVID-19 vaccines are available for everyone at no cost.
Vaccines were paid for with taxpayer dollars and will be given to all people living in the United States, regardless of insurance or immigration status.
I love how it says, at no cost, yet goes on to state it's payed for with taxpayer dollars.
So they're available at the cost of the taxpayers? and if people don't take these vaccines than the taxpayers would have wasted that amount of money as they expire? So if not many people ended up taking the vaccine than they'd have wasted taxpayer money?
If all you care about is money, and most people do, then I am sorry but that is just hilarious.
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Well bummer you need a subscription to read that WaPo article.
Joe Rogan is a mystery to me. He has some wonderful guests and was one of the first to get ahead of this COVID by interviewing Michael Olsterholm back at the beginning of this mess so he comes across as a man of science and rational. But when he has more controversial guests on, he can easily waffle to the side of his crazier guests. What's ironic is he has talked up building up your immune system so he eats right, exercises and doesn't really drink much alcohol and yet he still gets COVID and as someone wrote earlier, he took so much shit he'll never know what worked. :facepalm:
Maybe, just maybe, that's an "open mind". I don't know what you're thinking here, but it's hard to read that paragraph without my thinking you just assume he HAS to reject them as morons or not even have them on the show to begin with. Not slapping them with a stick is what debate/discussion is. "Silence is not consent"; we can talk about controversial topics without it being a de facto acceptance or endorsement. I don't listen to Joe Rogan (though not out of dislike for him; more due to time) but he strikes me as a curious guy who is interested in information, not just information that conforms to his (individual, subjective) worldview.
This is why I keep going back to 'wants'; it's all about what you WANT, and that's irrelevant. We're worried that one person (or a few, or 1,000; it matters not how many) will hear this nonsense and inject battery acid in their cock to fight COVID. But just as many people hear "Oh, vaccine solves everything!" and gets the vaccine with the same level of thought - that is to say, NONE - as the "crazies". You're okay with that lack of scrutiny because they did what you want them to do. For someone like me, who is worried about HOW we get there, it's just as much of a problem.
I think you "want" to read something into my post that's not there. I am a regular listener of Rogan and he can surely waffle on subjects. He has had Elon Musk and NDTyson and rave about science and then the next week he questions the vaccines and says that teenagers should not get the vaccine. That was so extreme that he backpedaled the next week. Maybe you should listen to his broadcast and see what I am talking about.
Those are not mutually exclusive, except in messaging. I am a licensed professional engineer; I have an MBA in international finance, and have over twenty years experience in remediating contaminated property (not to mention a law degree). I would consider myself a man of science.
I have questions about the vaccine (though I opted to get it done) and I am personally undecided as to whether teenager SHOULD or SHOULD NOT get the vaccine (the one child I am responsible for is 20 and made the decision - yes - for herself). Are you suggesting I'm extreme? You better check your gauge then. Having honest questions is not "extreme" and in fact ought to be more widely accepted. How do we learn if we don't question? How do we expand our intellectual horizons without curiosity?
I am not suggesting your anything. Where did you get that in my post? You're just "wanting" to find "something to argue about". Check my gauge? Check your reading comprehension. This has nothing to do with what you said but with what Rogan said. Geez..... :angry:
I'm not "looking" for anything. There are plenty of things I can argue with that I'm actively walking away from (in P/R). Here and now, I'm involved in a discussion about the merits of Joe Rogan and the position he's taken. Unless you tell me otherwise, I can only go by your words. What you wrote (and the fact that you've consistently erred on the side of public health versus personal freedoms) lends me to what I said. If I'm wrong, feel free to point it out, but shots aren't necessary.
I'm taking you at your words. You said: "he questions the vaccines and says that teenagers should not get the vaccine. That was so extreme...." I have questions about the vaccines, and whether teenagers should or should not get the vaccine. Isn't it logical to assume that would be extreme as well?
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I think people see someone like Joe Rogan and Cam Newton who take care of themselves and watch what they put in their bodies not willing to take the vaccine but put everything else under the sun into their bodies to avoid taking the vaccine and that makes no sense. If anyone has ever watched the drug commercials you see all the possible crazy side affects.
That's why people question because they are confused to their thought process.
And you're probably right; but why is that anyone's issue here? We've been indoctrinated to accept that other people's thought processes are their own. Why is it different now? I know, I know "because it affects me!" but that's a shallow excuse unless you're in the same room with Cam Newton and/or Joe Rogan and they are breathing their cooties on you. EVERYTHING we do has some impact on other people, it's just a matter of directness, proximity, and priorities. We're so U.S./North American centric that we've lost sight of some of the magnitude of this stuff. HALF the world is not vaccinated; we're at 70% here in the States. If a pack of 1,000 or 10,000 or even 1,000,000 decide to not vaccinate, even if it's because aliens told them they'd grow a tail with a vaccine, the world isn't going to end as long as 3.7 BILLION people across the world don't even have vaccines on their radar.
I would answer that a pandemic is bigger than what they perceive as lost freedoms. This isn't something that people will force decades to come. Like the flu shot. How many people talk about people's right with the flu shot these days?
I don't disagree. But there's a saying. I forgot what that saying was - :) :) :) - but the gist is, it's easy to stick to your principles when there's nothing at stake. It's hard when there is more at stake. Think back to the Patriot Act; it's a similar discussion. Was the threat of Al Qaeda bigger than lost freedoms? To some it was, to others it wasn't. And that was the debate at the time. I don't think I'm violating my personal prohibition on stereotyping if I point out that it's a reasonable guess that the sides on this debate have switched.
That doesn't tell me one side is right, it tells me that we have competing priorities we HAVE to account for in a democracy.
I have friends who completely against the vaccine. Hell, my sister in law, her 3 children who are adults and have children as well. Not my place to tell them what to do or not todo. Their choice. I just worry about consequences if one of their children get sick. Still, not my place even though I disagree.
And me personally. I worry about consequences that can have an affect on the future generations...my grand-children's grand-children. I see those consequences way more of a concern than this pandemic, personally, as even if we were to get this pandemic under control, these other consequences are still here and still getting worse. Which is the issue that is called "climate change". But, I myself like to term it...Environmental Impacts of our Human Choices. Meaning the impacts the decisions we humans have made that contributed to the current environment that is of concern for us humans and our survival. This is why to me, The pandemic is just a little blip in the entire vastness of our human life in relation to great whole, the bigger picture of the pale blue dot.
Even if we do get a handle on this pandemic, it is a sort of hilarity that these other issues can possibly soon be risen to the levels of panic that is similar to the covid-19 pandemic level of concern and worry.
In turn, the public health issue won't be covid-19 anymore. It'll change to one of these other issues that would be considered a public health issue. It is what China is doing and a huge factor for the reason they have been wearing masks before the pandemic, as their pollution is so bad that it is determined to be a public health issue.
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I think people see someone like Joe Rogan and Cam Newton who take care of themselves and watch what they put in their bodies not willing to take the vaccine but put everything else under the sun into their bodies to avoid taking the vaccine and that makes no sense. If anyone has ever watched the drug commercials you see all the possible crazy side affects.
That's why people question because they are confused to their thought process.
And you're probably right; but why is that anyone's issue here? We've been indoctrinated to accept that other people's thought processes are their own. Why is it different now? I know, I know "because it affects me!" but that's a shallow excuse unless you're in the same room with Cam Newton and/or Joe Rogan and they are breathing their cooties on you. EVERYTHING we do has some impact on other people, it's just a matter of directness, proximity, and priorities. We're so U.S./North American centric that we've lost sight of some of the magnitude of this stuff. HALF the world is not vaccinated; we're at 70% here in the States. If a pack of 1,000 or 10,000 or even 1,000,000 decide to not vaccinate, even if it's because aliens told them they'd grow a tail with a vaccine, the world isn't going to end as long as 3.7 BILLION people across the world don't even have vaccines on their radar.
I would answer that a pandemic is bigger than what they perceive as lost freedoms. This isn't something that people will force decades to come. Like the flu shot. How many people talk about people's right with the flu shot these days?
I don't disagree. But there's a saying. I forgot what that saying was - :) :) :) - but the gist is, it's easy to stick to your principles when there's nothing at stake. It's hard when there is more at stake. Think back to the Patriot Act; it's a similar discussion. Was the threat of Al Qaeda bigger than lost freedoms? To some it was, to others it wasn't. And that was the debate at the time. I don't think I'm violating my personal prohibition on stereotyping if I point out that it's a reasonable guess that the sides on this debate have switched.
That doesn't tell me one side is right, it tells me that we have competing priorities we HAVE to account for in a democracy.
I have friends who completely against the vaccine. Hell, my sister in law, her 3 children who are adults and have children as well. Not my place to tell them what to do or not todo. Their choice. I just worry about consequences if one of their children get sick. Still, not my place even though I disagree.
Mostly agree, though I do lessen my view of them due to their inherent selfishness. Again, vaccination is a social responsibility.
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Ben if you don't take care of the issues down the line, maybe you don't have the future generations. They had a vaccine for the flu. Imagine if have the country said no to it? Maybe you and I are not here?
RJ, I do tell them why I think it's a good idea but I have a feeling it's on deaf ears.
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I think people see someone like Joe Rogan and Cam Newton who take care of themselves and watch what they put in their bodies not willing to take the vaccine but put everything else under the sun into their bodies to avoid taking the vaccine and that makes no sense. If anyone has ever watched the drug commercials you see all the possible crazy side affects.
That's why people question because they are confused to their thought process.
And you're probably right; but why is that anyone's issue here? We've been indoctrinated to accept that other people's thought processes are their own. Why is it different now? I know, I know "because it affects me!" but that's a shallow excuse unless you're in the same room with Cam Newton and/or Joe Rogan and they are breathing their cooties on you. EVERYTHING we do has some impact on other people, it's just a matter of directness, proximity, and priorities. We're so U.S./North American centric that we've lost sight of some of the magnitude of this stuff. HALF the world is not vaccinated; we're at 70% here in the States. If a pack of 1,000 or 10,000 or even 1,000,000 decide to not vaccinate, even if it's because aliens told them they'd grow a tail with a vaccine, the world isn't going to end as long as 3.7 BILLION people across the world don't even have vaccines on their radar.
I would answer that a pandemic is bigger than what they perceive as lost freedoms. This isn't something that people will force decades to come. Like the flu shot. How many people talk about people's right with the flu shot these days?
I don't disagree. But there's a saying. I forgot what that saying was - :) :) :) - but the gist is, it's easy to stick to your principles when there's nothing at stake. It's hard when there is more at stake. Think back to the Patriot Act; it's a similar discussion. Was the threat of Al Qaeda bigger than lost freedoms? To some it was, to others it wasn't. And that was the debate at the time. I don't think I'm violating my personal prohibition on stereotyping if I point out that it's a reasonable guess that the sides on this debate have switched.
That doesn't tell me one side is right, it tells me that we have competing priorities we HAVE to account for in a democracy.
I have friends who completely against the vaccine. Hell, my sister in law, her 3 children who are adults and have children as well. Not my place to tell them what to do or not todo. Their choice. I just worry about consequences if one of their children get sick. Still, not my place even though I disagree.
On that, we're 1000% in agreement. And I share your worry, despite all that I've written. My head's not in the sand on the risk, I just have a different (maybe broader?) perspective then some.
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Ben if you don't take care of the issues down the line, maybe you don't have the future generations. They had a vaccine for the flu. Imagine if have the country said no to it? Maybe you and I are not here?
RJ, I do tell them why I think it's a good idea but I have a feeling it's on deaf ears.
We could go futher down and say that about the humans that didn't have supposed vaccines and remedies available to them. We did have those things, and would still have been using those things, but that knowledge and understanding of how to utilize them for their health benefits was destroyed and "conquered". So here we are having to depend on their product that they destroyed our products for, to give to us to use and be healthy people.
We had ways of healing and remedying. And when what we could do didn't work we said, it's out of our control and we have to accept the consequences that nature has in store for us. But they also didn't force people. If they did, then people either left the village, or gave in to their demands to be a part of that society and not become the outcast. That's how coercion works and it's pretty messed up when you have to resort to it in order for the people to obey your demands, even if they are for the better good of the people. It says a lot about the leadership when the people disregard them and end up destroying the entire structure of the society itself. The consequence of losing the trust with your people is you see the empire crumble and fall.
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RJ, I do tell them why I think it's a good idea but I have a feeling it's on deaf ears.
Unfortunately, it usually does.
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Ben if you don't take care of the issues down the line, maybe you don't have the future generations. They had a vaccine for the flu. Imagine if have the country said no to it? Maybe you and I are not here?
RJ, I do tell them why I think it's a good idea but I have a feeling it's on deaf ears.
We could go futher down and say that about the humans that didn't have supposed vaccines and remedies available to them. We did have those things, and would still have been using those things, but that knowledge and understanding of how to utilize them for their health benefits was destroyed and "conquered". So here we are having to depend on their product that they destroyed our products for, to give to us to use and be healthy people.
We had ways of healing and remedying. And when what we could do didn't work we said, it's out of our control and we have to accept the consequences that nature has in store for us. But they also didn't force people. If they did, then people either left the village, or gave in to their demands to be a part of that society and not become the outcast. That's how coercion works and it's pretty messed up when you have to resort to it in order for the people to obey your demands, even if they are for the better good of the people. It says a lot about the leadership when the people disregard them and end up destroying the entire structure of the society itself. The consequence of losing the trust with your people is you see the empire crumble and fall.
Sure, that was in the 1800's and early 1900's. With the advances today, Id rather go with science when it comes to a pandemic. For me, it's common sense.
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I listen to/watch JRE as well when he has guests that I think are interesting... he's like a mirror during most of his shows I think. His responses/questions/general demeanor reflect those of the guest sitting across from him. Watch him with Dr. Peterson, with the virologist mentioned earlier (had him on in the early stages of COVID), with Elon, etc... then watch him when Brendan Schaub and The Kid are on and compare the two versions of Joe that you see. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that mindset, I'm just saying that's how Joe is on the show. My wife and I were just talking about this last night.
Another thing to mention is Joe's health; he's very healthy by all standards and his internal/biological age is likely much younger than his physical age. Cam's likely in the same category. JRE might have "thrown the sink" at COVID, but the fact that his general health is so well maintained was likely a major contributing factor to his recovery and the likelihood of a mild case.
Sun Cannon :lol I had to Google that...
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Another thing to mention is Joe's health; he's very healthy by all standards and his internal/biological age is likely much younger than his physical age. Cam's likely in the same category. JRE might have "thrown the sink" at COVID, but the fact that his general health is so well maintained was likely a major contributing factor to his recovery and the likelihood of a mild case.
He also had a live show that he needed to reschedule and wanted to get back to doing his stand ups sooner than later so he had more reason to recover as quickly as possible than most people who will just ride it out and not spend the money or take anything that is questionable.
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I'm not "looking" for anything. There are plenty of things I can argue with that I'm actively walking away from (in P/R). Here and now, I'm involved in a discussion about the merits of Joe Rogan and the position he's taken. Unless you tell me otherwise, I can only go by your words. What you wrote (and the fact that you've consistently erred on the side of public health versus personal freedoms) lends me to what I said. If I'm wrong, feel free to point it out, but shots aren't necessary.
I'm taking you at your words. You said: "he questions the vaccines and says that teenagers should not get the vaccine. That was so extreme...." I have questions about the vaccines, and whether teenagers should or should not get the vaccine. Isn't it logical to assume that would be extreme as well?
Ahh yes - Public Health - because it's a thing. I will always side with the dangers of second hand smoke, the usefulness of traffic lights, the punishment of those who choose to murder others. Isn't this how a civilized society chooses to live? Does anyone argue for typhoid Mary and her right to freedoms?
And stay away from the Argument from Authority. I don't care how many degrees you have and if you're a lawyer, you should be able to argue points without bringing that up.
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I'm not "looking" for anything. There are plenty of things I can argue with that I'm actively walking away from (in P/R). Here and now, I'm involved in a discussion about the merits of Joe Rogan and the position he's taken. Unless you tell me otherwise, I can only go by your words. What you wrote (and the fact that you've consistently erred on the side of public health versus personal freedoms) lends me to what I said. If I'm wrong, feel free to point it out, but shots aren't necessary.
I'm taking you at your words. You said: "he questions the vaccines and says that teenagers should not get the vaccine. That was so extreme...." I have questions about the vaccines, and whether teenagers should or should not get the vaccine. Isn't it logical to assume that would be extreme as well?
Ahh yes - Public Health - because it's a thing. I will always side with the dangers of second hand smoke, the usefulness of traffic lights, the punishment of those who choose to murder others. Isn't this how a civilized society chooses to live? Does anyone argue for typhoid Mary and her right to freedoms?
Those aren't all equal though. We don't punish murder for "public health" reasons; we punish murder because it is a fundamental violation of the victim's fundamental right to life. And we balance that fundamental right when there are extenuating circumstances, like self-defense or capital punishment.
Of course "public health" is a thing; it's just not THE ONLY thing. There are multiple variables to be contemplated and evaluated. Rightly or wrongly, we CLEARLY do not take an "even one is too many" approach to life when evaluating those things that impact our public health. If we did there would be no cigarettes, diet soda, no one would be able to live within a mile of the coast, we would not be able to drive, and we'd be spending a lot more time on our suicide problem than we do.
And if the answer to "Typohoid Mary" was to chain her to her basement, yes we would argue for her right to freedoms.
And you know the VERY BEST THING about the United States? WE GET TO DISAGREE. You can - and SHOULD - believe whatever you want. I get to do the same thing. If you want to prioritize "public health" number one, with no consideration of any other variable (pragmatism, rights, cost, etc.) I not only support you but ENCOURAGE you to do so. I'm never going to call you deplorable, or selfish (whether I think it or not), or narrow-minded (whether I think it or not), or ignorant (whether I think it or not) because that's the beauty of living in a free society. And our elected representatives are tasked with finding a solution that balances all of the 330 million opinions in the country. Not JUST the Democrat opinions, or the "smart" opinions, or the opinions that agree with you. ALL OF THEM. The smart ones, the racist ones, the stupid ones, the woke ones, the Democrat ones, the Republican ones, the vaccinated ones, the unvaccinated ones, the Mangini-fan ones, the Portnoy-fan ones, all of them.
And stay away from the Argument from Authority. I don't care how many degrees you have and if you're a lawyer, you should be able to argue points without bringing that up.
It's not about "authority". It's about this FALSE presumption that everyone that doesn't think like you do is a fucking moron who just hasn't listened to reason or done the right research. The point was only that I know how to do research, I know how to read scientific journals, I have an inherent curiosity and so have done so, and yet, I don't come to the same conclusions you do.
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Just saw a caption on the local morning news that Fauci is following Israel's lead, and now indicating that a 3rd shot is necessary for Americans to be considered fully vaccinated?!?!?
sigh... little tired of the false equivalencies between COVID and smoking/diet soda. Maybe we don't live under the "even one is too many" approach, but maybe - just maybe - there was a tipping point at some point between 1 and 662,853 (in the US), or between 1 and 4,560,605 (globally). I'd like to think there was.
Also, quite a masterful way to call someone selfish/narrow-minded/ignorant without actually calling them that. Good job :tup. ::)
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Just saw a caption on the local morning news that Fauci is following Israel's lead, and now indicating that a 3rd shot is necessary for Americans to be considered fully vaccinated?!?!?
sigh... little tired of the false equivalencies between COVID and smoking/diet soda. Maybe we don't live under the "even one is too many" approach, but maybe - just maybe - there was a tipping point at some point between 1 and 662,853 (in the US), or between 1 and 4,560,605 (globally). I'd like to think there was.
Also, quite a masterful way to call someone selfish/narrow-minded/ignorant without actually calling them that. Good job :tup. ::)
Just heard that...Isreali data showed that on average there's an 80+% increase in antibodies three weeks after the third shot.
I'll take it.
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Just saw a caption on the local morning news that Fauci is following Israel's lead, and now indicating that a 3rd shot is necessary for Americans to be considered fully vaccinated?!?!?
sigh... little tired of the false equivalencies between COVID and smoking/diet soda. Maybe we don't live under the "even one is too many" approach, but maybe - just maybe - there was a tipping point at some point between 1 and 662,853 (in the US), or between 1 and 4,560,605 (globally). I'd like to think there was.
They're not false equivalencies in the context of the discussion about "public health". There's no doubt a chronic/acute component here that makes them different, but Hunnus himself mentioned the public heath reaction to second hand smoke, so it's fair game.
Also, quite a masterful way to call someone selfish/narrow-minded/ignorant without actually calling them that. Good job :tup. ::)
Not my intent, so I edited the post to reflect that. The idea was not to call HIM those things, but to say that I'm not trying to tell anyone how to THINK (he can feel free to think whatever he wants about those that don't see the world his way), but since we're so invested in the "consequences" of our actions, we might consider that the constant barrage of marginalization and rejection might have their OWN consequences that we don't like, i.e. the divisiveness and the entrenchment of the very positions we're trying to minimize. You never drove behind a car who was driving too slow and as you got nearer, they went SLOWER (or maybe you were the lead car)?
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Just saw a caption on the local morning news that Fauci is following Israel's lead, and now indicating that a 3rd shot is necessary for Americans to be considered fully vaccinated?!?!?
sigh... little tired of the false equivalencies between COVID and smoking/diet soda. Maybe we don't live under the "even one is too many" approach, but maybe - just maybe - there was a tipping point at some point between 1 and 662,853 (in the US), or between 1 and 4,560,605 (globally). I'd like to think there was.
Also, quite a masterful way to call someone selfish/narrow-minded/ignorant without actually calling them that. Good job :tup. ::)
Just heard that...Isreali data showed that on average there's an 80+% increase in antibodies three weeks after the third shot.
I'll take it.
And I will be in line right behind you. I know of 5 people in my orbit that have died from COVID with 2 of them that I knew personally. One person was fully vaxxed but got the Delta variant but it attacked her organs this time and she was dead within a week. :omg:
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Of course you are going to have anti-bodies after the shot, but isn't this really about having the t-cells give the proper immune response by creating anti-bodies? As in you don't actively need to have anti-bodies to be safe, your body will create them when you are exposed to the virus once it knows how to? I'm not sold on a booster personally. Not that I think it isn't safe or doesn't "work" just about whether it's really necessary. Seems more likely it's just needed for the immunocompromised folks who's bodies will struggle to create the proper immune response even with the current shots. I'd got no issue getting another jab if it comes to it, I just think a lot of others could use that one shot before me.
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Just saw a caption on the local morning news that Fauci is following Israel's lead, and now indicating that a 3rd shot is necessary for Americans to be considered fully vaccinated?!?!?
sigh... little tired of the false equivalencies between COVID and smoking/diet soda. Maybe we don't live under the "even one is too many" approach, but maybe - just maybe - there was a tipping point at some point between 1 and 662,853 (in the US), or between 1 and 4,560,605 (globally). I'd like to think there was.
They're not false equivalencies in the context of the discussion about "public health". There's no doubt a chronic/acute component here that makes them different, but Hunnus himself mentioned the public heath reaction to second hand smoke, so it's fair game.
Semantics I suppose. Yes, smoking and mass soda consumption are, at a macro level, public health issues. And yes, governments have taken actions to limit exposure of 2nd hand smoke to non-smokers - I think THAT is the equivalency that he is drawing. But the implications of individual "freedoms" and that impact to public health equivalency is what is false. Not sure I've ever heard about the contagiousness of smoking or drinking soda, or heard of the spread of such public health matters measured with an R value. ;D
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It's here...It's actually here....Omega Mu has arrived.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/mu-covid-variant-which-could-be-resistant-to-vaccines-now-in-almost-every-state/ar-AAO5IoN
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Apologies if this was discussed previously but are you all aware of the randomized controlled trial on masks that came out of Bangladesh?
Apparently cloth masks are useless and surgical masks are more effective.
The researchers point to the findings on surgical masks as being particularly policy-relevant at this moment. “Our results are consistent with lab research suggesting surgical masks are effective at reducing COVID-19,” said co-author Laura Kwong, an assistant professor of environmental health sciences at UC Berkeley’s School of Public Health. “These results suggest that we could prevent unnecessary death and disease if we got people to wear high-performance masks, such as surgical masks, in schools, workplaces, shopping centers, places of worship, and other indoor spaces.”
Source: https://www.poverty-action.org/news/new-study-first-randomized-trial-show-wearing-masks-reduces-covid-19-real-world-setting
Here is Dr. Vinay Prasad's quick YouTube on the take home message on this study. Well worth a listen, IMO. We need more RCTs!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29y7DzOP680&t=38s
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Weird. I just read this article debunking the cloth mask thing. Essentially, the virus rides on droplets and cloth masks block droplets very well (hence why your mask is moist after wearing it)
https://wgntv.com/news/coronavirus/can-cloth-masks-really-stop-covid-19-from-spreading/
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Weird. I just read this article debunking the cloth mask thing. Essentially, the virus rides on droplets and cloth masks block droplets very well (hence why your mask is moist after wearing it)
https://wgntv.com/news/coronavirus/can-cloth-masks-really-stop-covid-19-from-spreading/
Thanks for posting this. I'm going to read the study imbedded in the story more thoroughly but at a quick first glance, it appears they were using the term "face covering" and not looking at differences between types of masks worn. Also the data was from 2020 - before Delta. And part of the research was looking at past studies for flu virus, not Covid. That may not be an appreciable difference but then again it could be.
I believe the Bangladesh study was looking at people who actually HAD covid and transmission rates while infectious wearing cloth vs. surgical masks in communities with high current spread. That study was WAY long and I didn't finish it. I should definitely do that.
Again - I'm only just skimming your link because I have limited time atm. I may not have all of this 100% correct so please do correct me (someone) if I'm wrong. And I will definitely read it more thoroughly when I have the uninterrupted time to study it.
So much conflicting data out there. It's nice to have a place to share things that may contradict each other in a respectful way. Thanks again for posting that. I love practicing my study-evaluation skills! (This is where my kids would call me a nerd. LoL.) Personally, I have only been wearing cloth masks for comfort. But I'm going back to surgical masks for now until we as a country get down the backside of this most recent spike.
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I seem to recall the usefulness of ‘cloth’ masks was if they were triple layered. For instance, just pulling your cloth t-shirt above your mouth isn’t terrible useful.
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I seem to recall the usefulness of ‘cloth’ masks was if they were triple layered. For instance, just pulling your cloth t-shirt above your mouth isn’t terrible useful.
I think you bring up a good point. AND also we need to consider if people are even wearing their masks correctly to begin with! At least in the Bangladesh study they made mention of the education piece that went along with the assignments into the groups.
I had to pop back in because one of my favorite infectious disease doctors, Dr. Monica Gandhi, just did a 1 hour discussion with ZdoggMD and tackled topics: CDC messaging (how much it sucks), natural immunity, turning the pandemic into an endemic, what's going on in Australia, booster shots, vaccine mandates and passports, and Mu - among other things. I always feel so much more hopeful after listening to what she says and so I thought some of you might want to check it out as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3pAD0LOkZg
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Just got my second covid shot yesterday. I'm feeling like crap today with body aches, fever, and headache. I hope this is normal. 😴🤒
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The problem with cloth masks is that the category is simply too broad (thickness, material, structure). For masks with a standard, such as the EU FFP2 masks, you know they are all within a specific range of efficacy in terms of particle filtering.
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Had to get the rapid test today (been under the weather the last few days, had to call in today, and they need a negative test before I return to the office) and it came back negative, which is good. Even better is that the test was easy. 5 seconds in each nostril and neither bothered me at all (as opposed to the last time when they far up and it got stung for a good 5 seconds).
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Isn't the fast result less accurate though?
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Not sure. I am sure others here can answer that more intelligently than I can.
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Care rationing in Northern Idaho. If they think you might live, you get a bed. If they don't, good luck in that conference center or wherever they send you.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/idaho-enacts-crisis-hospital-care-standards-amid-covid-79872485
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Care rationing in Northern Idaho. If they think you might live, you get a bed. If they don't, good luck in that conference center or wherever they send you.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/idaho-enacts-crisis-hospital-care-standards-amid-covid-79872485
You'd think this was 1863 or something. This is really unbelievable .
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My cousin and his family live in Coeur d'Alaine, and they've been aggressively responsible, especially around my older aunt. If they get knocked by collateral damage I'll fucking rage.
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My daughter caught a cold at school -the kid that sits next to her was sick as hell. We kept her home today because she was miserable. She has ZERO of the symptoms on the school's covid screener.
School nurse calls us at 1pm saying but not saying that they expect us to take her to get a covid test. We weren't going to, since she doesn't meet the school's symptoms. So I call the pediatrician and their only open appointment is tonight, at 5:45pm, nearly two hours after the office should be closed.
The school wants a PCR test (2-3 days for results). I got the rapid test (negative) and a doctors note. I'm not keeping her home for 3 days because of a cold and waiting for a negative PCR test. The doctor urged us to keep her home for one more day. Every single kid with the sniffles is being asked to get covid tests by area schools and the doctors office is completely overwhelmed.
We've taken the pandemic seriously as a family, but this is just overkill. Schools all but forcing sick kids to get tested, doctors pleading with families to keep sick kids home. Everyone seems to be in a bit of a panic and we're just stuck in the middle navigating it.
We permitted the school to do saliva testing on our daughter, which may be weekly once it starts. So rushing around for a test after hours hopefully won't be an issue again.
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We're in that weird spot where we're not QUITE there with vaccinating all over 18s and no one wants to close down again and especially no one wants to close down schools, but numbers are rising. So now everyone who goes to school, from kids to adults, is encouraged to speed test themselves twice a week. Got my supplies for the next four weeks yesterday :angel:
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My cousin and his family live in Coeur d'Alaine, and they've been aggressively responsible, especially around my older aunt. If they get knocked by collateral damage I'll fucking rage.
This is where I am at. My wife, eight months pregnant, seems to be a magnet for people...to the point where she is essentially housebound for fear of getting sick from coughing, sneezing, non-mask-wearing people.
You don't want to get vaccinated or where a mask? Fine. Whatever. But why the fuck do you try to strike of a conversation with a pregnant, mask-wearing person while standing in line at the grocery store? And why the fuck won't people cover their mouths when they sneeze and cough?
Driving me insane.
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My cousin and his family live in Coeur d'Alaine, and they've been aggressively responsible, especially around my older aunt. If they get knocked by collateral damage I'll fucking rage.
This is where I am at. My wife, eight months pregnant, seems to be a magnet for people...to the point where she is essentially housebound for fear of getting sick from coughing, sneezing, non-mask-wearing people.
You don't want to get vaccinated or where a mask? Fine. Whatever. But why the fuck do you try to strike of a conversation with a pregnant, mask-wearing person while standing in line at the grocery store? And why the fuck won't people cover their mouths when they sneeze and cough?
Driving me insane.
Sorry man... Absolutely beautiful town btw, love it whenever I visit.
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My daughter caught a cold at school -the kid that sits next to her was sick as hell. We kept her home today because she was miserable. She has ZERO of the symptoms on the school's covid screener.
School nurse calls us at 1pm saying but not saying that they expect us to take her to get a covid test. We weren't going to, since she doesn't meet the school's symptoms. So I call the pediatrician and their only open appointment is tonight, at 5:45pm, nearly two hours after the office should be closed.
The school wants a PCR test (2-3 days for results). I got the rapid test (negative) and a doctors note. I'm not keeping her home for 3 days because of a cold and waiting for a negative PCR test. The doctor urged us to keep her home for one more day. Every single kid with the sniffles is being asked to get covid tests by area schools and the doctors office is completely overwhelmed.
We've taken the pandemic seriously as a family, but this is just overkill. Schools all but forcing sick kids to get tested, doctors pleading with families to keep sick kids home. Everyone seems to be in a bit of a panic and we're just stuck in the middle navigating it.
We permitted the school to do saliva testing on our daughter, which may be weekly once it starts. So rushing around for a test after hours hopefully won't be an issue again.
Oh man, of course this blows. I also feel badly for the pediatricians offices out there. It's going to be a cluster fuck.
But regarding the bolded - are you sure the school's Covid list has been updated for Delta? Because Delta mimics the average cold - nasal congestion or runny nose, sore throat, headache, fatigue, and sometimes fever.
Lots of folks are in the - is it a regular cold? allergies? Covid? with symptoms. It's pretty difficult to tease out right now.
Good luck with the test.
And as a bitch session on the side - why is it so damn hard to find at home Covid tests that don't cost a hundred dollars. Pharmacies run out quickly, Amazon is out of stock. Every fucking home in America should be sent some free test kits and a pack of surgical masks. But WTF, we're only 18 months into this thing. ::)
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But regarding the bolded - are you sure the school's Covid list has been updated for Delta? Because Delta mimics the average cold - nasal congestion or runny nose, sore throat, headache, fatigue, and sometimes fever.
Lots of folks are in the - is it a regular cold? allergies? Covid? with symptoms. It's pretty difficult to tease out right now.
Good luck with the test.
And as a bitch session on the side - why is it so damn hard to find at home Covid tests that don't cost a hundred dollars. Pharmacies run out quickly, Amazon is out of stock. Every fucking home in America should be sent some free test kits and a pack of surgical masks. But WTF, we're only 18 months into this thing. ::)
This is what the school is telling parents to look for:
● Fever (100.4°F or higher)
● New onset of moderate to severe headache
● Shortness of breath
● New cough
● Sore throat
● Vomiting
● Diarrhea
● New loss of sense of taste or smell
● Fatigue from unknown cause
● Muscle or body aches from unknown cause
She didn't have any of those. I know that the school needs to be cautious, but it's just a pain in the ass, especially because her symptoms when she gets a cold are usually the same. The school calls midway through the day, basically asking us to take her for the 2-3 day PCR test. Had I not been able to get into her doctor's office, I'd be scrambling around trying to find a place to get her a test. The implication from the school is that she would probably be out of school until she gets a negative result. Yet she woke up today feeling much better and interested in being in school, despite a stuffy nose.
The doctor's office was willing to do the PCR test, but I told them a negative rapid test and doctor's note would be fine. I'm sorry, but the doctors will stand behind a negative rapid test, and a negative rapid test will get you into another country (?), a crowded place (concert, restaurant, job-site), then it's good enough for a 6 year old to sit in school. Same thing with a doctor's note - if a construction guy can have a prescription for opiods and his employer will let him operate a crane with a doctor's note, then why can't a kid sit in school?
If they want a PCR test, then they need to have very firm guidelines for parents. Not just a reminder to look for symptoms and then arbitrarily decide what families have to do, causing them to scramble. She wasn't identified as a close contact for a covid positive case. She just has a cold.
I saw at-home covid tests at Walgreens for $25 - the box has two rapid tests, I believe.
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Goddamn I feel for any/everyone with elementary/secondary school aged children (especially the former).
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Regarding the rapid tests, some people say that are not reliable, but is that because they are more likely to be a false positive or to be false negative? I thought false positive was more likely (correct me if I am wrong please) so a negative rapid test should be fine?
Either way, yeah, things are going to be rough for pediatricians for awhile as schools are basically all back now. Surprisingly haven't heard my pediatrician friend bitch too much this week (he shares his nasty parent stories consistently so kind of shocking he's been quiet this week, but then again maybe he's just really busy).
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My daughter caught a cold at school -the kid that sits next to her was sick as hell. We kept her home today because she was miserable. She has ZERO of the symptoms on the school's covid screener.
School nurse calls us at 1pm saying but not saying that they expect us to take her to get a covid test. We weren't going to, since she doesn't meet the school's symptoms. So I call the pediatrician and their only open appointment is tonight, at 5:45pm, nearly two hours after the office should be closed.
The school wants a PCR test (2-3 days for results). I got the rapid test (negative) and a doctors note. I'm not keeping her home for 3 days because of a cold and waiting for a negative PCR test. The doctor urged us to keep her home for one more day. Every single kid with the sniffles is being asked to get covid tests by area schools and the doctors office is completely overwhelmed.
We've taken the pandemic seriously as a family, but this is just overkill. Schools all but forcing sick kids to get tested, doctors pleading with families to keep sick kids home. Everyone seems to be in a bit of a panic and we're just stuck in the middle navigating it.
We permitted the school to do saliva testing on our daughter, which may be weekly once it starts. So rushing around for a test after hours hopefully won't be an issue again.
Oh man, of course this blows. I also feel badly for the pediatricians offices out there. It's going to be a cluster fuck.
But regarding the bolded - are you sure the school's Covid list has been updated for Delta? Because Delta mimics the average cold - nasal congestion or runny nose, sore throat, headache, fatigue, and sometimes fever.
Lots of folks are in the - is it a regular cold? allergies? Covid? with symptoms. It's pretty difficult to tease out right now.
Good luck with the test.
And as a bitch session on the side - why is it so damn hard to find at home Covid tests that don't cost a hundred dollars. Pharmacies run out quickly, Amazon is out of stock. Every fucking home in America should be sent some free test kits and a pack of surgical masks. But WTF, we're only 18 months into this thing. ::)
Well, there's a philosophical aspect to that which we can ignore for the time being (I'm not a fan of "free"; there used to be bowls and bowls of free condoms at the Uconn Infirmary, and I can't say I ever used one, because it was free and it was in a bowl at the Uconn infirmary), but honest question: does that get us where we want to go? When this guy:
(https://i.imgur.com/hRG730O.jpg)
Or this guy:
(https://i.imgur.com/F96ZkZm.jpg)
walks up to you and says "I just took my test, and I'm negativo!" are you buying it? I know I'm not (and for me it wouldn't JUST be the Trump people, but I'm making a point).
The schools have no choice, given the outrage of those who believe that "if I get sick it's someone else's fault!" than to handle it this way. The "shit happens"* ship has sailed a long time ago. There is zero snark in this (even if I'm trying to be a little entertaining with the pictures); it's an honest public policy question.
* That is to say, even with the best laid precautions, sometimes people get sick, even COVID.
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But regarding the bolded - are you sure the school's Covid list has been updated for Delta? Because Delta mimics the average cold - nasal congestion or runny nose, sore throat, headache, fatigue, and sometimes fever.
Lots of folks are in the - is it a regular cold? allergies? Covid? with symptoms. It's pretty difficult to tease out right now.
Good luck with the test.
And as a bitch session on the side - why is it so damn hard to find at home Covid tests that don't cost a hundred dollars. Pharmacies run out quickly, Amazon is out of stock. Every fucking home in America should be sent some free test kits and a pack of surgical masks. But WTF, we're only 18 months into this thing. ::)
This is what the school is telling parents to look for:
● Fever (100.4°F or higher)
● New onset of moderate to severe headache
● Shortness of breath
● New cough
● Sore throat
● Vomiting
● Diarrhea
● New loss of sense of taste or smell
● Fatigue from unknown cause
● Muscle or body aches from unknown cause
She didn't have any of those. I know that the school needs to be cautious, but it's just a pain in the ass, especially because her symptoms when she gets a cold are usually the same. The school calls midway through the day, basically asking us to take her for the 2-3 day PCR test. Had I not been able to get into her doctor's office, I'd be scrambling around trying to find a place to get her a test. The implication from the school is that she would probably be out of school until she gets a negative result. Yet she woke up today feeling much better and interested in being in school, despite a stuffy nose.
The doctor's office was willing to do the PCR test, but I told them a negative rapid test and doctor's note would be fine. I'm sorry, but the doctors will stand behind a negative rapid test, and a negative rapid test will get you into another country (?), a crowded place (concert, restaurant, job-site), then it's good enough for a 6 year old to sit in school. Same thing with a doctor's note - if a construction guy can have a prescription for opiods and his employer will let him operate a crane with a doctor's note, then why can't a kid sit in school?
If they want a PCR test, then they need to have very firm guidelines for parents. Not just a reminder to look for symptoms and then arbitrarily decide what families have to do, causing them to scramble. She wasn't identified as a close contact for a covid positive case. She just has a cold.
I saw at-home covid tests at Walgreens for $25 - the box has two rapid tests, I believe.
You best realize that if that crane operator takes out a Wendy's and a Starbucks while on opioids that note means shit (and that's even assuming that you're correct on that). As I said to Harmony, the environment sucks for you, individually, but it's what we have now. We keep telling people that the "THEY" need to adjust for "US" - "they" need to get vaccinated, "they" need to wear masks, "they" needs to cover their mouths when they sneeze (because "they" are mouth breathers), "they" need to go home from work if they're not feeling well, and at this point, you just so happen to be the "THEY". It blows, but it is what it is.
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But regarding the bolded - are you sure the school's Covid list has been updated for Delta? Because Delta mimics the average cold - nasal congestion or runny nose, sore throat, headache, fatigue, and sometimes fever.
Lots of folks are in the - is it a regular cold? allergies? Covid? with symptoms. It's pretty difficult to tease out right now.
Good luck with the test.
And as a bitch session on the side - why is it so damn hard to find at home Covid tests that don't cost a hundred dollars. Pharmacies run out quickly, Amazon is out of stock. Every fucking home in America should be sent some free test kits and a pack of surgical masks. But WTF, we're only 18 months into this thing. ::)
This is what the school is telling parents to look for:
● Fever (100.4°F or higher)
● New onset of moderate to severe headache
● Shortness of breath
● New cough
● Sore throat
● Vomiting
● Diarrhea
● New loss of sense of taste or smell
● Fatigue from unknown cause
● Muscle or body aches from unknown cause
She didn't have any of those. I know that the school needs to be cautious, but it's just a pain in the ass, especially because her symptoms when she gets a cold are usually the same. The school calls midway through the day, basically asking us to take her for the 2-3 day PCR test. Had I not been able to get into her doctor's office, I'd be scrambling around trying to find a place to get her a test. The implication from the school is that she would probably be out of school until she gets a negative result. Yet she woke up today feeling much better and interested in being in school, despite a stuffy nose.
The doctor's office was willing to do the PCR test, but I told them a negative rapid test and doctor's note would be fine. I'm sorry, but the doctors will stand behind a negative rapid test, and a negative rapid test will get you into another country (?), a crowded place (concert, restaurant, job-site), then it's good enough for a 6 year old to sit in school. Same thing with a doctor's note - if a construction guy can have a prescription for opiods and his employer will let him operate a crane with a doctor's note, then why can't a kid sit in school?
If they want a PCR test, then they need to have very firm guidelines for parents. Not just a reminder to look for symptoms and then arbitrarily decide what families have to do, causing them to scramble. She wasn't identified as a close contact for a covid positive case. She just has a cold.
I saw at-home covid tests at Walgreens for $25 - the box has two rapid tests, I believe.
You should see the universities...They won't even recognize a rapid test. It HAS to be a PCR test. And these are for the people whom are exempt from the vaccine by medical or religious. And those that do not take the vaccine, are still allowed in class, but face restrictions on campus access. Even those taking online classes and are not going to be on campus at all, are required to be vaccinated. IF not, there will be an academic hold placed on you and you won't be allowed to register for Spring Classes.
While they allow unvaccinated visitors onto Campus and only require them to wear a mask, and there is no enforcement of this mask policy what-so-ever outdoors. The mask policy is for indoors only, and it's quite hard to know who is and isn't a student outdoors on campus.
There's an eerie silence around the campus, and we had an actual peaceful protest. Those people were gathering signatures and if you want to get into it more would ask you for a phone number, which they asked for an email to send updates. They had some Campus Officers telling them about complaints about them not wearing masks (They were outside where not many people wear their mask either). The Campus Officers told them that they do not support the mandates as well. There are campus workers that are helping them get access to permits and the like. They were also told by many people how having them there gave them a voice for their concerns where they felt they had no one to talk with about their feelings/concerns.
It's going to be an interesting month for sure at our University. :corn
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But regarding the bolded - are you sure the school's Covid list has been updated for Delta? Because Delta mimics the average cold - nasal congestion or runny nose, sore throat, headache, fatigue, and sometimes fever.
Lots of folks are in the - is it a regular cold? allergies? Covid? with symptoms. It's pretty difficult to tease out right now.
Good luck with the test.
And as a bitch session on the side - why is it so damn hard to find at home Covid tests that don't cost a hundred dollars. Pharmacies run out quickly, Amazon is out of stock. Every fucking home in America should be sent some free test kits and a pack of surgical masks. But WTF, we're only 18 months into this thing. ::)
This is what the school is telling parents to look for:
● Fever (100.4°F or higher)
● New onset of moderate to severe headache
● Shortness of breath
● New cough
● Sore throat
● Vomiting
● Diarrhea
● New loss of sense of taste or smell
● Fatigue from unknown cause
● Muscle or body aches from unknown cause
She didn't have any of those. I know that the school needs to be cautious, but it's just a pain in the ass, especially because her symptoms when she gets a cold are usually the same. The school calls midway through the day, basically asking us to take her for the 2-3 day PCR test. Had I not been able to get into her doctor's office, I'd be scrambling around trying to find a place to get her a test. The implication from the school is that she would probably be out of school until she gets a negative result. Yet she woke up today feeling much better and interested in being in school, despite a stuffy nose.
The doctor's office was willing to do the PCR test, but I told them a negative rapid test and doctor's note would be fine. I'm sorry, but the doctors will stand behind a negative rapid test, and a negative rapid test will get you into another country (?), a crowded place (concert, restaurant, job-site), then it's good enough for a 6 year old to sit in school. Same thing with a doctor's note - if a construction guy can have a prescription for opiods and his employer will let him operate a crane with a doctor's note, then why can't a kid sit in school?
If they want a PCR test, then they need to have very firm guidelines for parents. Not just a reminder to look for symptoms and then arbitrarily decide what families have to do, causing them to scramble. She wasn't identified as a close contact for a covid positive case. She just has a cold.
I saw at-home covid tests at Walgreens for $25 - the box has two rapid tests, I believe.
You best realize that if that crane operator takes out a Wendy's and a Starbucks while on opioids that note means shit (and that's even assuming that you're correct on that). As I said to Harmony, the environment sucks for you, individually, but it's what we have now. We keep telling people that the "THEY" need to adjust for "US" - "they" need to get vaccinated, "they" need to wear masks, "they" needs to cover their mouths when they sneeze (because "they" are mouth breathers), "they" need to go home from work if they're not feeling well, and at this point, you just so happen to be the "THEY". It blows, but it is what it is.
Exactly, and you had people telling the "US" crowd, be careful because they can easily turn it around and make you the "THEY". Which is happening now to some of those people.
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It blows, but it is what it is.
So we all just grin and bear it, and put up with the lowest common denominators? Sorry boss, that's not how this cochise rolls. You needn't boil everything down to "us" vs "them". How 'bout boiling it down to acting responsibluy and in the best interests of public health? You think someone who works in a kitchen has the right to say 'pass' on a hairnet jus cuz they've got 90s-era Nuno Bettncourt flowing locks? That's not an "us" vs "them" issue, and neither is wanting to stay safe and healthy in the middle of a global pandemic.
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It blows, but it is what it is.
So we all just grin and bear it, and put up with the lowest common denominators? Sorry boss, that's not how this cochise rolls. You needn't boil everything down to "us" vs "them". How 'bout boiling it down to acting responsibluy and in the best interests of public health? You think someone who works in a kitchen has the right to say 'pass' on a hairnet jus cuz they've got 90s-era Nuno Bettncourt flowing locks? That's not an "us" vs "them" issue, and neither is wanting to stay safe and healthy in the middle of a global pandemic.
I completely agree! I have been saying this for months now. Personal responsibility? I did it but the unvaccinated aren't doing it AND they are trying to inhibit others right to get vaccinated! Time for jail for these people.
Love the Nuno reference! :metal
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More stats from the NJ governor today:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-x3d6FXEAM3Ex2?format=jpg&name=large)
The proof is in the pudding
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This is what the school is telling parents to look for:
● Fever (100.4°F or higher)
● New onset of moderate to severe headache
● Shortness of breath
● New cough
● Sore throat
● Vomiting
● Diarrhea
● New loss of sense of taste or smell
● Fatigue from unknown cause
● Muscle or body aches from unknown cause
Sounds like they should update that list. Everything I've read about Delta includes runny nose or congestion as well.
And yeah, Walgreens supposedly carries the test kits. But they have been out in our area. From what I've gathered they can't keep them in stock for long. And no matter what Stadler says about a bowl full of condoms, if they were made free and available 24/7, I'd make use of them. And not because I'd feel free to blow my snot at people in a crowd but because I'd want to isolate myself if I came up positive and try to be a responsible human being.
But then again, I've always covered my nose and mouth when sneezing or coughing. It was something that was taught to me as a toddler. It's not rocket science.
-
It blows, but it is what it is.
So we all just grin and bear it, and put up with the lowest common denominators? Sorry boss, that's not how this cochise rolls. You needn't boil everything down to "us" vs "them". How 'bout boiling it down to acting responsibluy and in the best interests of public health? You think someone who works in a kitchen has the right to say 'pass' on a hairnet jus cuz they've got 90s-era Nuno Bettncourt flowing locks? That's not an "us" vs "them" issue, and neither is wanting to stay safe and healthy in the middle of a global pandemic.
Well, you're one Cochise out of 370 million +/- that live in the U.S. and Canada. No offense, you're a friend, but as a general proposition you seem to be asking for a WHOLE lot more than I would from my government and expecting a level of performance that isn't reasonable or possible IMO when that government is a democracy that has to work for ALL 370 million. Put another way, you have a higher level of... I don't know what the word is, but risk averseness comes to mind. I'm not interested in making the world act like I want them to with laws and jail. If you're so bugged by them, sue them I guess, but I can't see that going anywhere.
And as for the "us" versus "them", it IS always "us" versus "them". Find me something since 9/11 that hasn't been (and hint, that was just a different "us" and a different "them"). Seriously you don't need me to point that out, do you? it's the single biggest problem facing America today, IMO.
I'd love if everyone acted responsibly. Nothing would make me happier. When you have 370 million people, though, the measure of "responsibly" is not an open and shut case. I had a long list of what I considered "responsible", but it came off as snarky, and I don't intend this to be snark. I'm not interested in legislating morals or "good behavior". I'm responsible for me, and if you (collective) aren't taking my best interest to heart, that's the reality I'm living in.
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It blows, but it is what it is.
So we all just grin and bear it, and put up with the lowest common denominators? Sorry boss, that's not how this cochise rolls. You needn't boil everything down to "us" vs "them". How 'bout boiling it down to acting responsibluy and in the best interests of public health? You think someone who works in a kitchen has the right to say 'pass' on a hairnet jus cuz they've got 90s-era Nuno Bettncourt flowing locks? That's not an "us" vs "them" issue, and neither is wanting to stay safe and healthy in the middle of a global pandemic.
I completely agree! I have been saying this for months now. Personal responsibility? I did it but the unvaccinated aren't doing it AND they are trying to inhibit others right to get vaccinated! Time for jail for these people.
Love the Nuno reference! :metal
Guys, "personal responsibility" isn't making the other guy do what you want.
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This is what the school is telling parents to look for:
● Fever (100.4°F or higher)
● New onset of moderate to severe headache
● Shortness of breath
● New cough
● Sore throat
● Vomiting
● Diarrhea
● New loss of sense of taste or smell
● Fatigue from unknown cause
● Muscle or body aches from unknown cause
Sounds like they should update that list. Everything I've read about Delta includes runny nose or congestion as well.
And yeah, Walgreens supposedly carries the test kits. But they have been out in our area. From what I've gathered they can't keep them in stock for long. And no matter what Stadler says about a bowl full of condoms, if they were made free and available 24/7, I'd make use of them. And not because I'd feel free to blow my snot at people in a crowd but because I'd want to isolate myself if I came up positive and try to be a responsible human being.
But then again, I've always covered my nose and mouth when sneezing or coughing. It was something that was taught to me as a toddler. It's not rocket science.
Your post confuses me; I was making two points, neither of which seem to have landed. One, that "making it free" is a certain path to making them useless from a quality control perspective. It was supposed to be funny, but the point was, the high end Trojans were not in the bowl at Uconn.
As for the rest, look at the posts above yours. Most people aren't content to just be personally responsible; they want to force everyone else to be their level of responsible, and that's not how societies work. I have no doubt you wouldn't blow your boogers on someone else - neither would I. But making those tests free aren't going to make anyone who isn't already responsible something they are not. And for those that aren't the requisite level of "responsible", it will only be an enabler.
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More stats from the NJ governor today:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-x3d6FXEAM3Ex2?format=jpg&name=large)
The proof is in the pudding
Those stats are purposefully measuring the wrong thing to show a low %. Here in Ontario, we're seeing a pretty consistent 20% of daily cases coming from vax'd people - which is consistent with the expectations. Hospitalizations is closer to the 10% range, and deaths is low single digit %s. These numbers above seem unbelievably low(er), to use the total vaccinated people as the denominator.
Has NJ been tracking vax status of cases since way back in January? Ontario didn't start until just a few weeks ago.
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It blows, but it is what it is.
So we all just grin and bear it, and put up with the lowest common denominators? Sorry boss, that's not how this cochise rolls. You needn't boil everything down to "us" vs "them". How 'bout boiling it down to acting responsibluy and in the best interests of public health? You think someone who works in a kitchen has the right to say 'pass' on a hairnet jus cuz they've got 90s-era Nuno Bettncourt flowing locks? That's not an "us" vs "them" issue, and neither is wanting to stay safe and healthy in the middle of a global pandemic.
Well, you're one Cochise out of 370 million +/- that live in the U.S. and Canada. No offense, you're a friend, but as a general proposition you seem to be asking for a WHOLE lot more than I would from my government and expecting a level of performance that isn't reasonable or possible IMO when that government is a democracy that has to work for ALL 370 million.
Yes, *I'm* just one, but you damn well know there are 10s of millions that have a similar stance to mine, so there's no need to minimize me as a single voice. That's like saying my one vote in an election is only one vote. And yes, the government has to govern for all 370M, under the old saying of you can't please all of the people all of the time. So (on the matter of pandemic response) my hope would be for governments to err on the side of public health FOR ALL. Some citizens do in fact need to be saved from themselves. ;) And yes, I will ask for more out of my fellow citizens, and out of my government.
Put another way, you have a higher level of... I don't know what the word is, but risk averseness comes to mind. I'm not interested in making the world act like I want them to with laws and jail.
I fully recognize I have a higher lever if risk aversion than the average bear. I'm not interested in everyone acting like me, or looking for laws or jail for not vaccinating, but I'm totally fine with consequences.
Again, back to my first point ... I'm not content to simply throw up my arms and accept "it is what it is". History is littered with examples of people not accepting 'it is what it is', for all kinds of issues at a macro and micro level. YOU didn't just accept your kids bullying as "it is what it is", so that card is a pretty weak one.
-
More stats from the NJ governor today:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-x3d6FXEAM3Ex2?format=jpg&name=large)
The proof is in the pudding
Those stats are purposefully measuring the wrong thing to show a low %. Here in Ontario, we're seeing a pretty consistent 20% of daily cases coming from vax'd people - which is consistent with the expectations. Hospitalizations is closer to the 10% range, and deaths is low single digit %s. These numbers above seem unbelievably low(er), to use the total vaccinated people as the denominator.
Has NJ been tracking vax status of cases since way back in January? Ontario didn't start until just a few weeks ago.
How is that possible? There's no other reliable math that gets a HIGHER percentage. That math above is "vax cases/vax people". "Total cases/vas people" makes no sense, because there is an incomplete correlation (the data set of the numerator is not the same as the data set of the denominator). "Vax cases/total people" doesn't really make sense either, but since "total people" > "vax people", the percentage would be lower, not higher. "Total cases/total people" makes logical sense, but doesn't tell us anything about the variable of "vaccinated".
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What I'm saying is that yesterday, Ontario reported 554 new cases; 136 of them were from fully vaccinated individuals. Ergo, 24.5% of cases are coming from vaccinated individuals (and over the past month, it's been pretty consistent at ~20%). COVID hospitalizations ... 162 patients across the province; 28 from fully vaccinated individuals. Ergo, 17% of hospitalizations are coming from fully vaccinated individuals. ICU .... 8/113 are fully vax'd - 7%.*
I'm just saying publishing the stats like NJ does is a convenient way to show some very minuscule percentages. I'd gather the corresponding %s of non-vax'd individuals - while higher - would still be relatively small.
IMO, the more important comparisons is within the population of confirmed cases - not the total population.
*and as I type this, the former two measurements are higher than the trend over the last month - which is something health officials should be noting and paying attention to. If more and more cases and/or hospitalizations are coming from fully vax'd people, that's a concern. The fact that there's less than a third of a percent to even contract COVID is good news, but doesn't really tell much. And it isn't terribly useful if there's only a 3% chance (I'm making that up) the non-vax population can contract COVID. The percentages are still very low that ANYONE will contract it at any given point in time.
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It blows, but it is what it is.
So we all just grin and bear it, and put up with the lowest common denominators? Sorry boss, that's not how this cochise rolls. You needn't boil everything down to "us" vs "them". How 'bout boiling it down to acting responsibluy and in the best interests of public health? You think someone who works in a kitchen has the right to say 'pass' on a hairnet jus cuz they've got 90s-era Nuno Bettncourt flowing locks? That's not an "us" vs "them" issue, and neither is wanting to stay safe and healthy in the middle of a global pandemic.
Well, you're one Cochise out of 370 million +/- that live in the U.S. and Canada. No offense, you're a friend, but as a general proposition you seem to be asking for a WHOLE lot more than I would from my government and expecting a level of performance that isn't reasonable or possible IMO when that government is a democracy that has to work for ALL 370 million.
Yes, *I'm* just one, but you damn well know there are 10s of millions that have a similar stance to mine, so there's no need to minimize me as a single voice. That's like saying my one vote in an election is only one vote. And yes, the government has to govern for all 370M, under the old saying of you can't please all of the people all of the time. So (on the matter of pandemic response) my hope would be for governments to err on the side of public health FOR ALL. Some citizens do in fact need to be saved from themselves. ;) And yes, I will ask for more out of my fellow citizens, and out of my government.
I'm not minimizing you as a single voice; I'm asking you not to minimize those voices that disagree with you.
Here's the rub: I TOO agree that they should err on the side of public heath for all WHEN ALL ELSE IS EQUAL; but all else ISN'T equal. Government has a DUTY, an OBLIGATION, to honor the fundamental rights of each and every citizen while they make those errors. I don't agree that "erring on the side of public health" (and I love that phrase, because we are NOT talking about certainty here, we are talking about POSSIBLY improving the odds to a degree we cannot calculate with any certainty) trumps the fundamental rights established by our respective Constitutions. If I want to go to a higher standard of personal care, I can do that myself. If I don't want to, you cannot - legally - make me.
We live in a society with a false sense of certainty on things that CANNOT control our day-to-day. Just because someone "might" die isn't enough; anywhere from 7,000 to 24,000 people died in the Revolutionary War fighting for the freedoms we have today. To many of those people death was preferable to living under the thumb of Great Britain (who wasn't killing people randomly, who wasn't in any material way threatening the colonists in the manner of COVID).
Put another way, you have a higher level of... I don't know what the word is, but risk averseness comes to mind. I'm not interested in making the world act like I want them to with laws and jail.
I fully recognize I have a higher lever if risk aversion than the average bear. I'm not interested in everyone acting like me, or looking for laws or jail for not vaccinating, but I'm totally fine with consequences.
Again, back to my first point ... I'm not content to simply throw up my arms and accept "it is what it is". History is littered with examples of people not accepting 'it is what it is', for all kinds of issues at a macro and micro level. YOU didn't just accept your kids bullying as "it is what it is", so that card is a pretty weak one.
How do you get from your first paragraph there to your second? It wasn't you - it was Hunnus - who suggested jail, I grant you, but what "consequences"? If I don't get vaccinated, my chances of dying are greater; those are my consequences. I have no problem if private entities restrict access based on vaccination, provided no fundamental rights are violated. But beyond that, why should I also endure arbitrary consequences from people who have a different risk tolerance than I do? I know, I know, "harm to you". But if any given person doesn't get vaccinated, that's no guarantee you will get it (and if you are vaccinated your chances of dying decrease significantly so your risk is already lower than it would have been). I've already addressed the issue of variants; we (the U.S.) are at 70% vaccinated; the world is less than 50%. If you argue that "vaccination reduces the chance of variants" (not a great argument, but I'll give it to you) the variant risk is far greater outside our boundaries and will remain that regardless of our "consequences".
I'm at a loss here as to why the most risk averse get to trample on the fundamental rights of all of us on an off-chance that it MIGHT impact your risk profile. This is the same problem with guns (though I'll give you that at least with the vaccine there is SOME data that works in your favor).
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What I'm saying is that yesterday, Ontario reported 554 new cases; 136 of them were from fully vaccinated individuals. Ergo, 24.5% of cases are coming from vaccinated individuals (and over the past month, it's been pretty consistent at ~20%). COVID hospitalizations ... 162 patients across the province; 28 from fully vaccinated individuals. Ergo, 17% of hospitalizations are coming from fully vaccinated individuals. ICU .... 8/113 are fully vax'd - 7%.*
But those are misleading. Let's say there are 1,000,000 drivers on the road at any given time. Let's say there are 100 drunk drivers on the road any given time. If there are 75 crashes, and 50 are drunk driving accidents, are you saying that we should count that as "33% sober drivers and 66% intoxicated drivers"? That's misleading. Your chances of getting home safety are orders of magnitude better sober than drunk.
Though I don't disagree with you on the general premise of numbers being misleading. There's this article slamming Tomi Lahren, because she deserves to be slammed because that's the nature of our discourse and she's deplorable (https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/unvaccinated-people-are-more-likely-to-die-of-covid-19-because-they-are-more-vulnerable-to-infection-and-severe-disease-tomi-lahren/), but funny enough, they never ACTUALLY refute her numbers, only keep repeating that they are "misleading" and sticking to the agenda. Lahren IS right, to the extent that it matters, and it's not an inconsequential data point (even if it does potentially lead to bad decision-making for the group).
I'm just saying publishing the stats like NJ does is a convenient way to show some very minuscule percentages. I'd gather the corresponding %s of non-vax'd individuals - while higher - would still be relatively small.
IMO, the more important comparisons is within the population of confirmed cases - not the total population.
Haha, the foot is on the other shoe here, since I would THINK you'd prefer the numbers that encourage those to get vaccinated! Haha. But statistically, I think you're incorrect here. The problem with using the population of confirmed cases to compare vax versus non-vax is that the subset of POTENTIAL cases is not evenly distributed between them. There's a name for this paradox, but I can't remember what it is; I read it in an article only about a week or so ago. See my drunk driving example.
*and as I type this, the former two measurements are higher than the trend over the last month - which is something health officials should be noting and paying attention to. If more and more cases and/or hospitalizations are coming from fully vax'd people, that's a concern. The fact that there's less than a third of a percent to even contract COVID is good news, but doesn't really tell much. And it isn't terribly useful if there's only a 3% chance (I'm making that up) the non-vax population can contract COVID. The percentages are still very low that ANYONE will contract it at any given point in time.
But again, you have to control for all the other variables. As more and more people become vaccinated, you're going to get a broader cross-section of people vaccinated but who are still vulnerable. You're also going to have to account for a re-increase in testing since more and more places are now requiring "negative tests" to use their facilities. It's like autism; you're going to now see more and more people counted as "cases" that wouldn't have been - independent of vax status - even two months ago.
The only things we know FOR SURE at this point is vaccines DO help to reduce the frequency and severity of COVID (the Israeli study I cited a while ago). We're not sure, yet, but we THINK that the Delta variant is more contagious, but there is no evidence that the symptoms are more severe (that's from this morning's New York Times; you can google it). Everything else is some combinatio of educated guesses, dice rolls, and wishful thinking.
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I need to clarify: I am not talking about jailtime for those that choose not to get vaccinated just restriction of freedoms. When I mentioned jailtime, I was referring to those who disrupt vaccination clinics and or rip masks off of teachers or threaten teachers doctors and school board members. There needs to be consequences for those actions.
That's my bad for not being clear enough.
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Here's the rub: I TOO agree that they should err on the side of public heath for all WHEN ALL ELSE IS EQUAL; but all else ISN'T equal. Government has a DUTY, an OBLIGATION, to honor the fundamental rights of each and every citizen while they make those errors.
You and I are going to continually disagree about what constitutes a "fundamental right". Though, the ACLU just recently opined (https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/civil-liberties-and-vaccine-mandates-heres-our-take/) "Do vaccine mandates violate civil liberties? Some who have refused vaccination claim as much. We disagree. At the ACLU, we are not shy about defending civil liberties, even when they are very unpopular. But we see no civil liberties problem with requiring Covid-19 vaccines in most circumstances."
We live in a society with a false sense of certainty on things that CANNOT control our day-to-day. Just because someone "might" die isn't enough
I'm throwing a BULLSHIT flag here. Why do we have drunk driving laws then? If that's not a comparable enough example, I'm sure I could come up with a few dozen more, but hopefully I need not do that to get my point across that as a society, we absolutely do set laws and norms to minimize situations where "someone might die".
How do you get from your first paragraph there to your second? It wasn't you - it was Hunnus - who suggested jail, I grant you, but what "consequences"? If I don't get vaccinated, my chances of dying are greater; those are my consequences. I have no problem if private entities restrict access based on vaccination, provided no fundamental rights are violated. But beyond that, why should I also endure arbitrary consequences from people who have a different risk tolerance than I do?
On the first point, I did randomly change lanes on you there... there's no connection between my two paragraphs, and my apologies for misunderstanding your earlier response. On the bolded, I could ask the exact same question.
I'm at a loss here as to why the most risk averse get to trample on the fundamental rights of all of us on an off-chance that it MIGHT impact your risk profile. This is the same problem with guns (though I'll give you that at least with the vaccine there is SOME data that works in your favor).
Again, I could say the same, but in reverse. Alas, we (you and I specifically) have had this debate more than a few times now, and it ends up in the same stalemate.
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I need to clarify: I am not talking about jailtime for those that choose not to get vaccinated just restriction of freedoms. When I mentioned jailtime, I was referring to those who disrupt vaccination clinics and or rip masks off of teachers or threaten teachers doctors and school board members. There needs to be consequences for those actions.
That's my bad for not being clear enough.
Well yeah, and not because their unvaccinated. They should face jail time because that's harassment.
Same with the people that harassed Larry Elder. (While wearing a monkey mask). :facepalm:
The government is sly with this restrictions of freedom. Reminds me of the leader who sends his goons to do his dirty work, sort of like how Charles Manson got his family to murder. The government told businesses, directing them, to take away freedoms because businesses have more leeway than the government does. Businesses have more freedoms.
Coercion leads to silenced voices as people don't want to push back and voluntarily submit to the coercion. To the point where some guy ended up doing this and businesses agreed and let him place these signs on their windows.
https://youtu.be/hu_3WFnf5mo
And in reality, these businesses are only caring because of Liability. And not because they care about their employees Health, they never cared before, what makes you think they really do care now.
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Here's the rub: I TOO agree that they should err on the side of public heath for all WHEN ALL ELSE IS EQUAL; but all else ISN'T equal. Government has a DUTY, an OBLIGATION, to honor the fundamental rights of each and every citizen while they make those errors.
You and I are going to continually disagree about what constitutes a "fundamental right". Though, the ACLU just recently opined (https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/civil-liberties-and-vaccine-mandates-heres-our-take/) "Do vaccine mandates violate civil liberties? Some who have refused vaccination claim as much. We disagree. At the ACLU, we are not shy about defending civil liberties, even when they are very unpopular. But we see no civil liberties problem with requiring Covid-19 vaccines in most circumstances."
But we shouldn't disagree: I can't speak for Canada, but only one body gets to decide that here in the States and it's not you or me or the ACLU. It's the Supreme Court. The vaccine question is currently unclear in those terms. (And for the record, I'm not arguing a particular position, I'm arguing how we get there; I personally can see a vaccination program that DOESN'T violate the Constitution, it just has to be done right, and if it was done right, I'd support it. It just can't come from public bullying and shaming, which is where we are seemingly going now).
I'm throwing a BULLSHIT flag here. Why do we have drunk driving laws then? If that's not a comparable enough example, I'm sure I could come up with a few dozen more, but hopefully I need not do that to get my point across that as a society, we absolutely do set laws and norms to minimize situations where "someone might die".
Because they generate tons of revenue for communities? Because the insurance companies lobby like mofos? Same reason we still have 55 mph speed limits on roads designed for 50% higher than that (or more).
And even if you want to give examples, that doesn't mean they are right. I'm okay with DUI laws, but it's not because you MIGHT be harmed. There's a whole lot more that goes into it.
On the first point, I did randomly change lanes on you there... there's no connection between my two paragraphs, and my apologies for misunderstanding your earlier response. On the bolded, I could ask the exact same question.
AND
I'm at a loss here as to why the most risk averse get to trample on the fundamental rights of all of us on an off-chance that it MIGHT impact your risk profile. This is the same problem with guns (though I'll give you that at least with the vaccine there is SOME data that works in your favor).
Again, I could say the same, but in reverse. Alas, we (you and I specifically) have had this debate more than a few times now, and it ends up in the same stalemate.
If I understand the first question - and I'm not 100% sure I do - the two sides are not symmetrical, and I'm sorry if my posts have given that impression. It's not a "steak" or "fish" zero sum game where you're getting a protein either way. Fundamental rights exist regardless. I don't have to do anything to get them, there is no test for them, and I don't have to prove them. They are innate and inalienable. There are very strict requirements for infringing on them, and it's all on you (collective) to meet those requirements. There are tests. The one in use today is the "strict scrutiny" test: there has to be a compelling (necessary or crucial, not just preferred) state interest in curbing the right, the law has to be narrowly tailored to meet that interest, and it has to be the least restrictive way of achieving that interest. Neither "narrowly tailored" or "least restrictive" means "easiest".
So there's no "I can ask you the same thing"; no, I have the right. You have to show why and how you are infringing on that. This is, in part anyway, why the recent abortion law in Texas is so controversial and why I think it will ultimately be struck down at some point. What is the "compelling state interest" here? And how does the law meet that interest?
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This is what the school is telling parents to look for:
● Fever (100.4°F or higher)
● New onset of moderate to severe headache
● Shortness of breath
● New cough
● Sore throat
● Vomiting
● Diarrhea
● New loss of sense of taste or smell
● Fatigue from unknown cause
● Muscle or body aches from unknown cause
Sounds like they should update that list. Everything I've read about Delta includes runny nose or congestion as well.
And yeah, Walgreens supposedly carries the test kits. But they have been out in our area. From what I've gathered they can't keep them in stock for long. And no matter what Stadler says about a bowl full of condoms, if they were made free and available 24/7, I'd make use of them. And not because I'd feel free to blow my snot at people in a crowd but because I'd want to isolate myself if I came up positive and try to be a responsible human being.
But then again, I've always covered my nose and mouth when sneezing or coughing. It was something that was taught to me as a toddler. It's not rocket science.
Your post confuses me; I was making two points, neither of which seem to have landed. One, that "making it free" is a certain path to making them useless from a quality control perspective. It was supposed to be funny, but the point was, the high end Trojans were not in the bowl at Uconn.
As for the rest, look at the posts above yours. Most people aren't content to just be personally responsible; they want to force everyone else to be their level of responsible, and that's not how societies work. I have no doubt you wouldn't blow your boogers on someone else - neither would I. But making those tests free aren't going to make anyone who isn't already responsible something they are not. And for those that aren't the requisite level of "responsible", it will only be an enabler.
Well now your post confuses me even more. Put aside "it was supposed to be funny" and tell me if you are suggesting that the more people have access to free Covid tests the less accurate they (the tests - not the people using them) will somehow be? If quality control of a product goes out the window because of the amount of product made, we all should probably stop taking Ibuprofen and Tylenol.
And FTR, my post had nothing to do with what other do. I was saying that for people who want to be responsible and WANT to test at home these tests should not be difficult to obtain. They should not be so expensive that people who are below the poverty line couldn't afford one if they want one.
I don't know why you need to jump on people's posts and make it about something it's not. I've never once claimed that I could control the actions of other people.
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This is what the school is telling parents to look for:
● Fever (100.4°F or higher)
● New onset of moderate to severe headache
● Shortness of breath
● New cough
● Sore throat
● Vomiting
● Diarrhea
● New loss of sense of taste or smell
● Fatigue from unknown cause
● Muscle or body aches from unknown cause
Sounds like they should update that list. Everything I've read about Delta includes runny nose or congestion as well.
And yeah, Walgreens supposedly carries the test kits. But they have been out in our area. From what I've gathered they can't keep them in stock for long. And no matter what Stadler says about a bowl full of condoms, if they were made free and available 24/7, I'd make use of them. And not because I'd feel free to blow my snot at people in a crowd but because I'd want to isolate myself if I came up positive and try to be a responsible human being.
But then again, I've always covered my nose and mouth when sneezing or coughing. It was something that was taught to me as a toddler. It's not rocket science.
Your post confuses me; I was making two points, neither of which seem to have landed. One, that "making it free" is a certain path to making them useless from a quality control perspective. It was supposed to be funny, but the point was, the high end Trojans were not in the bowl at Uconn.
As for the rest, look at the posts above yours. Most people aren't content to just be personally responsible; they want to force everyone else to be their level of responsible, and that's not how societies work. I have no doubt you wouldn't blow your boogers on someone else - neither would I. But making those tests free aren't going to make anyone who isn't already responsible something they are not. And for those that aren't the requisite level of "responsible", it will only be an enabler.
Well now your post confuses me even more. Put aside "it was supposed to be funny" and tell me if you are suggesting that the more people have access to free Covid tests the less accurate they (the tests - not the people using them) will somehow be? If quality control of a product goes out the window because of the amount of product made, we all should probably stop taking Ibuprofen and Tylenol.
Tylenol and Ibuprofen are not free. I was saying that the FREE-ness would potentially reduce the quality. I was also saying that the more prevalent they are the less validity/integrity they would have (kind of tangentially related).
And FTR, my post had nothing to do with what other do. I was saying that for people who want to be responsible and WANT to test at home these tests should not be difficult to obtain. They should not be so expensive that people who are below the poverty line couldn't afford one if they want one.
I don't disagree with that.
I don't know why you need to jump on people's posts and make it about something it's not. I've never once claimed that I could control the actions of other people.
One man's skepticism on the "free" (and easy)* is another (wo)man's jumping on. I'm truly sorry you felt that way, it wasn't my intent.
*"Every fucking home in America should be sent some free test kits and a pack of surgical masks".
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Tylenol and Ibuprofen are not free. I was saying that the FREE-ness would potentially reduce the quality. I was also saying that the more prevalent they are the less validity/integrity they would have (kind of tangentially related).
OMG, really? You just can't help it, can you? Do you not get the actual point I was making here?
Please provide some evidence that the accuracy of a Covid test kit would magically be reduced in efficacy if it were made available for free.
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Tylenol and Ibuprofen are not free. I was saying that the FREE-ness would potentially reduce the quality. I was also saying that the more prevalent they are the less validity/integrity they would have (kind of tangentially related).
OMG, really? You just can't help it, can you? Do you not get the actual point I was making here?
Please provide some evidence that the accuracy of a Covid test kit would magically be reduced in efficacy if it were made available for free.
Sorry, Harmony. You're right, I'm wrong. You win. :tup
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Tylenol and Ibuprofen are not free. I was saying that the FREE-ness would potentially reduce the quality. I was also saying that the more prevalent they are the less validity/integrity they would have (kind of tangentially related).
OMG, really? You just can't help it, can you? Do you not get the actual point I was making here?
Please provide some evidence that the accuracy of a Covid test kit would magically be reduced in efficacy if it were made available for free.
Sorry, Harmony. You're right, I'm wrong. You win. :tup
Placating is so disrespectful. Maybe try to be less of an ass.
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Regarding test efficacy, the rapid tests are known/believed to provide more false negatives than PCR tests. PCR tests need to be sent out and handled in a lab, which is why it takes 2-3 days for results and they are believed to be more accurate for that reason.
If my kid's doctor's office will stand behind the results from a rapid test, I don't see why the school (or anywhere else) wouldn't accept it.
For the record, my daughter turned in the doctor's note to her teacher yesterday and we haven't heard from the school nurse at all regarding the rapid test/doctor's note vs. PCR test. I just wish they had formal guidelines for parents - if your child is sick, take these steps. At least we'd know what is being asked of us ahead of time, rather than getting a call in the afternoon, strongly suggesting that we have to scramble and get her tested when our intent is for her to go back to school the next day.
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Fundamental rights exist regardless. I don't have to do anything to get them, there is no test for them, and I don't have to prove them. They are innate and inalienable. There are very strict requirements for infringing on them, and it's all on you (collective) to meet those requirements. There are tests.
So American. And that wasn't meant as snark. You seem look at responses and solutions through a distinctly American lens. The virus has no such cares. You Founding Fathers are not the arbiter of humanity's "fundamental rights". And btw, the ACLU article I posted directly contradicted you - "Vaccines are a justifiable intrusion on autonomy and bodily integrity. That may sound ominous, because we all have the fundamental right to bodily integrity and to make our own health care decisions. But these rights are not absolute. They do not include the right to inflict harm on others."
Like I said... round and round we go. You're not going to see things the way I do, nor vice versa.
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@Jingle, Harmony, and Stadler: I suggest that you all just take a step back and ratchet down the argument. There's no need to go at each other, talk past each other, and go on the attack like you are doing. It isn't productive to anything. Most of this thread involves calm, rational discussion, which you are all more than capable of. And that is what the thread should be.
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Tylenol and Ibuprofen are not free. I was saying that the FREE-ness would potentially reduce the quality. I was also saying that the more prevalent they are the less validity/integrity they would have (kind of tangentially related).
OMG, really? You just can't help it, can you? Do you not get the actual point I was making here?
Please provide some evidence that the accuracy of a Covid test kit would magically be reduced in efficacy if it were made available for free.
Sorry, Harmony. You're right, I'm wrong. You win. :tup
Placating is so disrespectful. Maybe try to be less of an ass.
So is calling someone an ass. I expressed an opinion like every other poster here, and somehow it bothered you. I neither intended that reaction, nor wanted it and sought to disengage from the ad hominem ("I don't know why you need to jump on people's posts" and "you just can't help it can you?"). Nothing more, nothing less.
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@Jingle, Harmony, and Stadler: I suggest that you all just take a step back and ratchet down the argument. There's no need to go at each other, talk past each other, and go on the attack like you are doing. It isn't productive to anything. Most of this thread involves calm, rational discussion, which you are all more than capable of. And that is what the thread should be.
Um, ok? I had no ill-will or "aggression" in my dialogue with Stadler. Frankly, I enjoy our (his and mine) banter, even though we're coming from opposite ends. I always do my best to come across in and understanding and respectful way, and always think that of Bill. If any of my above posts did come across with any 'tone', it was unintended, and I apologize.
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Fundamental rights exist regardless. I don't have to do anything to get them, there is no test for them, and I don't have to prove them. They are innate and inalienable. There are very strict requirements for infringing on them, and it's all on you (collective) to meet those requirements. There are tests.
So American. And that wasn't meant as snark. You seem look at responses and solutions through a distinctly American lens. The virus has no such cares. You Founding Fathers are not the arbiter of humanity's "fundamental rights". And btw, the ACLU article I posted directly contradicted you - "Vaccines are a justifiable intrusion on autonomy and bodily integrity. That may sound ominous, because we all have the fundamental right to bodily integrity and to make our own health care decisions. But these rights are not absolute. They do not include the right to inflict harm on others."
Like I said... round and round we go. You're not going to see things the way I do, nor vice versa.
How else SHOULD I look at it? For better or worse, we're divided into governmental subdivisions (nations). That's who implements these programs we're talking about. If there's a beef between two citizens of any of those nations, the government (in some form or fashion) resolves the dispute. It's uncomfortable between you - a Canad - and me - an American - but say, between Hunnus and I, there's no other way of looking at things. It's in fact the ONLY way of looking at things if we want to bind the other into some sort of action/adherence.
That line in the article you bolded is fact, but the one after it doesn't necessarily follow. It is opinion, heavily dependent on what that "harm" is. It's awkward to say it this way, but we DO have the right to inflict harm on others in the sense that the limitations on absolute rights are NOT solely predicated on "harm". Would you agree that calling someone the n-word "harms" them? Because the n-word is protected speech; there might be other consequences, but "free speech infringement" isn't one of them. My right to "life" is not subordinate to yours; I have no duty, if we are both going down with the ship, to save you over me. Jack took one for the team, but he was not OBLIGATED to. Self-defense here, as well. My rights to due process and unreasonable search and seizure don't go away if the result is "harm" to you.
I get that we won't agree, but it's bothersome - on a macro level, not a personal one - that there seems to be so much.... what's the word? Misunderstanding? No, more like lack of tolerance, for the opposing view. There are so many opinions being stated as if they were "facts" and it's disturbing in the grand scheme of things. How do you expect our leadership to govern when we can't even agree on the ground rules? And all I'm doing is putting up the mechanism for solving the discrepancy when we DON'T agree. I'm not sure why that's so problematic.
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@Jingle, Harmony, and Stadler: I suggest that you all just take a step back and ratchet down the argument. There's no need to go at each other, talk past each other, and go on the attack like you are doing. It isn't productive to anything. Most of this thread involves calm, rational discussion, which you are all more than capable of. And that is what the thread should be.
Um, ok? I had no ill-will or "aggression" in my dialogue with Stadler. Frankly, I enjoy our (his and mine) banter, even though we're coming from opposite ends. I always do my best to come across in and understanding and respectful way, and always think that of Bill. If any of my above posts did come across with any 'tone', it was unintended, and I apologize.
I feel the same way with Chad, but also offer an apology if need be, since I too have no intention of inflicting 'tone'. I've already apologized to Harmony in post number 1730 and 1732 (the latter of which WAS sincere, though I can see why the rest of the post would call that into doubt. I had hoped the thumbs up would soften it into the 'walk away' it was intended to be).
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Get a cyber room you two.
Of course if you're both vaccinated.
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Get a cyber room you two.
Of course if you're both vaccinated.
As long as he brings the beer. And I'll wear a mask if need be.
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Get a cyber room you two.
Of course if you're both vaccinated.
As long as he brings the beer. And I'll wear a mask if need be.
Just make sure it's one of this mask
(https://www.click2houston.com/resizer/afjba6LoQfgdpHfaGESvmLaba68=/800x808/smart/filters:format(jpeg):strip_exif(true):strip_icc(true):no_upscale(true):quality(65)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/gmg/RYTVL7JJBZBI7CREL56ZUYHXEY.JPG)
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And I'll wear a mask if need be.
Then what good will you be?
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I'll be bringing Rush beer. :biggrin:
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Well, cool then if everyone is cool with the discussion. :tup As a third party to the discussion, it looked a bit overly aggressive and combative to me, and it's my job to step in and tamp that down where I see it. If you all are good with each other then, carry on.
...but it's bothersome - on a macro level, not a personal one - that there seems to be so much.... what's the word? Misunderstanding? No, more like lack of tolerance, for the opposing view.
Bingo. Some tolerance, understanding, and empathy for opposing views goes a long way toward being able to coexist rather than simply entrenching in one's own echo chamber.
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More stats from the NJ governor today:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-x3d6FXEAM3Ex2?format=jpg&name=large)
The proof is in the pudding
Those stats are purposefully measuring the wrong thing to show a low %. Here in Ontario, we're seeing a pretty consistent 20% of daily cases coming from vax'd people - which is consistent with the expectations. Hospitalizations is closer to the 10% range, and deaths is low single digit %s. These numbers above seem unbelievably low(er), to use the total vaccinated people as the denominator.
Has NJ been tracking vax status of cases since way back in January? Ontario didn't start until just a few weeks ago.
It's not a percentage of cases but percentage against total vaccinated people. Similar to what the NY times posted recently that your chances of getting covid after vaccination is still very low, they estimated 1 out of 5000 chance. These numbers are pretty much how they are coming to that conclusion.
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Local radio talk show is having a go at Tucker over his "medical Jim Crow" comment, and made an interesting point about freedom and the consequences attached to it. To paraphrase.... we have the freedom to learn to read or not to. We can grow into adulthood being as illiterate as possible, just don't cry foul when you can't read or fill out a job application.
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From CBS Whitehouse correspondant, Weigia Yang:
The President will announce that all employers with 100 or more employees will be required to mandate COVID-19 vaccines or require testing at least once a week, and they’ll have to provide paid time off.
The new rule will impact over 80 million workers in private sector.
COVID-19 vaccinations will also be required for more than 17 million health care workers at hospitals and other facilities that receive Medicare or Medicaid reimbursement—roughly 50K providers. (This covers a majority of health care workers nationwide.)
Shit is about get real here, people.
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Yup....he's using OSHA to do it. Game on.
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From CBS Whitehouse correspondant, Weigia Yang:
The President will announce that all employers with 100 or more employees will be required to mandate COVID-19 vaccines or require testing at least once a week, and they’ll have to provide paid time off.
The new rule will impact over 80 million workers in private sector.
COVID-19 vaccinations will also be required for more than 17 million health care workers at hospitals and other facilities that receive Medicare or Medicaid reimbursement—roughly 50K providers. (This covers a majority of health care workers nationwide.)
Shit is about get real here, people.
I work at a very large investment bank and the amount of middle-aged banker bros that are anti-vaxx are going to flip their shit. Can't wait to see the work emails when I get Monday.
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I have a friend who is a former coworker as a physical therapist who has been actively vocal on Facebook against vaccine mandates and child mask requirements in school. She actively protested against it 1-2 weeks ago. She (and of course others) is going to flip her fucking lid over this.
It might be entertaining to watch, but I might also have to unfollow her for a while if it’s too over the top…
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They only brought it on themselves.
They know nothing of personal responsibility.
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There's going to a lot of fallback from the consequences of this decision.
One is that if many of these people walk out of work and don't comply and quit. How many of them are essential to the production of the system in which we work. How many of them are the only ones that are reliant to where business operations won't halt. If there are protests of these workers not working, then we best prepare for many, many, many services and goods that make us comfortable to not be produced and will not be in supply.
That is what I am expecting to happen, as many, including vaccinated people, go out on the streets to protest this coercive mandate.
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There's going to a lot of fallback from the consequences of this decision.
One is that if many of these people walk out of work and don't comply and quit. How many of them are essential to the production of the system in which we work. How many of them are the only ones that are reliant to where business operations won't halt. If there are protests of these workers not working, then we best prepare for many, many, many services and goods that make us comfortable to not be produced and will not be in supply.
That is what I am expecting to happen, as many, including vaccinated people, go out on the streets to protest this coercive mandate.
With so much mandating, if people quit, where will they work? Id be interested in seeing how many people quit, get the shot, and come back just due to needing a job.
Out of my close group of friends, 9/11 have been vaccinated. Of the 2 who are not vaccinated, 1 had covid is a doctor and doesn't see the need (in good health, fairly young at 39) and the other is a healthy cop at 36 who said he'll get it when they force him. I think this will put my close circle of friends at full immunity soon enough, not that it bothered me to hang with either of them. I have my protection, I feel fine.
Last night I went to a small indoor concert. They checked vaccines against ID. First time I feel like a concert legit took that seriously. I expect them to as well tonight for another indoor concert.
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There's going to a lot of fallback from the consequences of this decision.
One is that if many of these people walk out of work and don't comply and quit. How many of them are essential to the production of the system in which we work. How many of them are the only ones that are reliant to where business operations won't halt. If there are protests of these workers not working, then we best prepare for many, many, many services and goods that make us comfortable to not be produced and will not be in supply.
That is what I am expecting to happen, as many, including vaccinated people, go out on the streets to protest this coercive mandate.
With so much mandating, if people quit, where will they work? Id be interested in seeing how many people quit, get the shot, and come back just due to needing a job.
Out of my close group of friends, 9/11 have been vaccinated. Of the 2 who are not vaccinated, 1 had covid is a doctor and doesn't see the need (in good health, fairly young at 39) and the other is a healthy cop at 36 who said he'll get it when they force him. I think this will put my close circle of friends at full immunity soon enough, not that it bothered me to hang with either of them. I have my protection, I feel fine.
Last night I went to a small indoor concert. They checked vaccines against ID. First time I feel like a concert legit took that seriously. I expect them to as well tonight for another indoor concert.
Speaking of 9/11...I love how he did this on the Thursday in the 20th anniversary week of 9/11....
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From CBS Whitehouse correspondant, Weigia Yang:
The President will announce that all employers with 100 or more employees will be required to mandate COVID-19 vaccines or require testing at least once a week, and they’ll have to provide paid time off.
The new rule will impact over 80 million workers in private sector.
COVID-19 vaccinations will also be required for more than 17 million health care workers at hospitals and other facilities that receive Medicare or Medicaid reimbursement—roughly 50K providers. (This covers a majority of health care workers nationwide.)
Shit is about get real here, people.
I work at a very large investment bank and the amount of middle-aged banker bros that are anti-vaxx are going to flip their shit. Can't wait to see the work emails when I get Monday.
On Sundays I work for a mom and pop grocery store's catering department. They have four locations and 430 employees give or take. There aren't exact numbers, but something like maybe 50% of the company is actually vaccinated. The girl I share a bench with refuses to get the shot because she saw posts on Facebook that showed deformed babies coming out of women who got the shot during pregnancy (she's not pregnant). I'm really curious what she's going to do. Many people are in her shoes. Even if they quit, where are they going to go? There are only so many kitchen style jobs for companies with less than 100 employees, I'm guessing demand for those positions will be through the roof with next to no supply.
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I'm fully vaccinated and I wish this would be over. One hand, yes, let's do this Biden mandate and get it over with. On the other, I really think this decision will set future precedents for government power (everybody pulling out executive orders up their ass is also a problem). I don't like it at all. I'm of the thought that you make a choice, you live with the consequences. You get the vaccine, you have a lower risk of developing severe symptoms. You don't get the vaccine, you take the risk, and live, get mildly sick, or die intubated.
I read a comment somewhere that really resonated with me and to paraphrase, it said: "we have the freedom to learn how to read or not to. We can grow into adulthood being illiterate as possible, just don't cry foul when you can't read or fill out an application". This applies to the vaccine.
Applying the Dept of Labor/OSHA legal justification sounds like a desperate shot at getting more people vaccinated. It may apply to healthcare workers because they are exposed to toxins and pathogens but for an office worker? Unfortunately (or fortunately) there is already a precedent with a similar case that went through the Supreme Court back in 1905 for the smallpox vaccine and I think this is what Biden is hoping for: if this goes to the SC, then the judges look back at this 1905 case and go for it. This also sets up massive legal fights between private companies, unions, and states. I don't think federal employees can really do anything about the mandate though (not sure).
I have very mixed feelings about this and it is sad that personal accountability doesn't exist anymore (personal, government, companies pushing agendas, spreading misinformation, etc).
Edit: employer asked me to upload my vaccination card today and complied.
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They only brought it on themselves.
They know nothing of personal responsibility.
That's rich coming from a guy who is essentially advocating making other people do things against their will to comply with his personal wishes. ;) :angel:
This is MAYBE a short-term win (at best) and almost definitely a long-term mistake. It's also going to make the anti-abortion argument that much easier.
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You know that the US postal service is exempt from the mandate.
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You know that the US postal service is exempt from the mandate.
No they aren't. If not vaccinated, USPS employees still need to undergo the weekly testing as required by the mandate.
https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-mandate-for-100m-workers/
But nearly four hours after that understanding was reported, the White House issued a clarification saying that postal workers will have a choice between getting vaccinated and getting tested once a week, just like workers at large companies.
“USPS is not included in the executive order requiring vaccination of Federal employees. USPS has a separate statutory scheme and is traditionally independent of federal personnel actions like this,” a Biden administration official said.
He added: “That said, USPS is strongly encouraged to comply. Also, [the Labor Department’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration] will cover USPS through the [emergency temporary standards], meaning that postal workers will be subject to the vaccination or testing policy announced today.”
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And....All they had to do is require testing for everybody. And that would be the best way to handle this. As it is now. It's causing a lot of unnervingly unsettling discourse. And is further pushing that dividing line further away from unifying and coming together as a nation.
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Do we still consider it a "mandate" if people (other than healthcare workers and maybe teachers) are given the option to test instead?
Seems to me that makes it more of a choice. Maybe that is just semantics but not getting the vaccine for most people doesn't defacto mean they will be unemployed.
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I feel sorry for the businesses owners now having more of an issue to deal with in regards to their workers and themselves not wanting to be adamant about demanding people to get a vaccine. As they feel, it's not the governments job to tell people what they can do with their bodies.
Is bodily autonomy private or not. Because that precident was set by Texas and now is the government being hypocrites by allowing one form of bodily autonomy to be acceptable while claiming another is not.
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They only brought it on themselves.
They know nothing of personal responsibility.
That's rich coming from a guy who is essentially advocating making other people do things against their will to comply with his personal wishes. ;) :angel:
This is MAYBE a short-term win (at best) and almost definitely a long-term mistake. It's also going to make the anti-abortion argument that much easier.
When I refer to personal responsibility I am actually being sarcastic because I remember when the the W years turned into to the Obama years and one of the conservatives talking points was "personal responsibility" which was always BS. Now the unvaccinated claim "my body my choice" which women having been screaming at the top of their lungs for years yet guess who gets their choice taken away?
If the you interpret, however incorrectly, that I want the unvaccinated to bow to my will then so be it but always remember that the needs of the many outweigh the needs or wants of the few. Nobody is body slamming the unvaxxed and jabbing them with a needle but you want to have certain perceived freedoms then get vaxxed. I think United is about to furlough employees that are unvaxxed. It's their choice or would you want to take that choice away? Sounds like you do.....
BTW - you consistently use insults to make a point and I would think that a man with multiple degrees and being a lawyer could make a point without resorting to this kind of language.
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Politics has ruined this whole thing. I would venture to guess that 99% of the anti-covid vax crowd has all gotten their shots when they were younger and also got their kids all their shots. Now this vaccine comes along for this 'fake' disease and people are all against it. Just something I was thinking about.
Just got the annual email from my work yesterday that the flu shot campaign has started. If I don't get the shot, I'm fired. Been like that for years. Never any pushback on it. They also mandated the covid shot as a job requirement. Not sure if anyone in the company has raised a stink like I have seen at other healthcare companies.
This whole thing is so dumb.
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I might be a skeleton before a mod honors my PR request, so questions of legality aside (of which I have many), I will say this:
I hope, at least, that it works. I'm not thrilled about having to return to the office, but I'll feel better if I know that over 75% of my coworkers are vaccinated.
I'm not thrilled about having to keep a child in daycare, but I'll feel better knowing that the staff are mostly all vaccinated and that the parents of the children are, too.
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They only brought it on themselves.
They know nothing of personal responsibility.
That's rich coming from a guy who is essentially advocating making other people do things against their will to comply with his personal wishes. ;) :angel:
This is MAYBE a short-term win (at best) and almost definitely a long-term mistake. It's also going to make the anti-abortion argument that much easier.
When I refer to personal responsibility I am actually being sarcastic because I remember when the the W years turned into to the Obama years and one of the conservatives talking points was "personal responsibility" which was always BS. Now the unvaccinated claim "my body my choice" which women having been screaming at the top of their lungs for years yet guess who gets their choice taken away?
As if the liberal talking point isn't? If you have two issues, and two parties on either side, and one side are hypocrites, BY DEFINITION the other side are hypocrites as well. I'm a personal autonomy guy; I personally think our duty is to ourselves, and anything else is a bonus. I'm not here to defend a group position, or defend OTHER people's hypocrisy. Ask them. I'm advocating for MY position and I'm fairly comfortable that I am consistent across most/all topics on this.
If the you interpret, however incorrectly, that I want the unvaccinated to bow to my will then so be it but always remember that the needs of the many outweigh the needs or wants of the few. Nobody is body slamming the unvaxxed and jabbing them with a needle but you want to have certain perceived freedoms then get vaxxed. I think United is about to furlough employees that are unvaxxed. It's their choice or would you want to take that choice away? Sounds like you do.....
Who said the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? I don't accept that as a foundational gospel. And even if we do agree on that, we have a LOT of things to discuss, because you're just trading one hypocrisy for another at this point. What is the "needs of the many" with allowing individuals to select their bathroom, or select their gender? What is the "needs of the many" with the idea of celebrating obesity? What is the "needs of the many" with ignoring the crippling divisiveness in our country and continuing on with "slamming deplroables" and "pwning libtards" (in quotes only to distinguish discrete ideas, not to directly quote anyone).
BTW - you consistently use insults to make a point and I would think that a man with multiple degrees and being a lawyer could make a point without resorting to this kind of language.
You'll have to point out the insult; I mean nothing here personally. I attack ideas, yes, but I do not attack people (unless CLEARLY defending myself from same, and usually not even then). "Disagreeing with someone" shouldn't be "insulting". If it is, we have a MUCH bigger problem (and that certainly explains a lot of the national divisiveness we're experiencing, if that's how some people feel).
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Who said the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Surak3.jpg)
Glad I could contribute.
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I might be a skeleton before a mod honors my PR request, so questions of legality aside (of which I have many), I will say this:
I hope, at least, that it works. I'm not thrilled about having to return to the office, but I'll feel better if I know that over 75% of my coworkers are vaccinated.
I'm not thrilled about having to keep a child in daycare, but I'll feel better knowing that the staff are mostly all vaccinated and that the parents of the children are, too.
The interesting thing is, I'm against this largely (though if it really is a choice - vaccine or test - then I'm a lot more comfortable with it) but even so, I feel the same way as you. I WOULD feel better if those around me and my kids were vaccinated. I just don't value "my feeling better" as anything that anyone else should be worried about. Or that our policy should address. Or that the law should be subordinate to. A lot - too much - of our recent policy seems predicated on that most subjective (and elusive) of standards and we're not better off for it (it's only serving to deepen our divisiveness).
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I might be a skeleton before a mod honors my PR request, so questions of legality aside (of which I have many), I will say this:
I hope, at least, that it works. I'm not thrilled about having to return to the office, but I'll feel better if I know that over 75% of my coworkers are vaccinated.
I'm not thrilled about having to keep a child in daycare, but I'll feel better knowing that the staff are mostly all vaccinated and that the parents of the children are, too.
The interesting thing is, I'm against this largely (though if it really is a choice - vaccine or test - then I'm a lot more comfortable with it) but even so, I feel the same way as you. I WOULD feel better if those around me and my kids were vaccinated. I just don't value "my feeling better" as anything that anyone else should be worried about. Or that our policy should address. Or that the law should be subordinate to. A lot - too much - of our recent policy seems predicated on that most subjective (and elusive) of standards and we're not better off for it (it's only serving to deepen our divisiveness).
Don't twist it - my feelings are based on pretty realistic views on the pandemic and what it is doing to people around the world, as well as substantial evidence that vaccines are an immediate and effective answer. I don't see the law as subordinating to feelings here, whether they're mine or anyone elses. Taking it a step further, I'm not sure I agree that the law is being subordinated at all.
Not that I would necessarily care if it the law was, in fact, being subordinated.
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I might be a skeleton before a mod honors my PR request, so questions of legality aside (of which I have many), I will say this:
I hope, at least, that it works. I'm not thrilled about having to return to the office, but I'll feel better if I know that over 75% of my coworkers are vaccinated.
I'm not thrilled about having to keep a child in daycare, but I'll feel better knowing that the staff are mostly all vaccinated and that the parents of the children are, too.
The interesting thing is, I'm against this largely (though if it really is a choice - vaccine or test - then I'm a lot more comfortable with it) but even so, I feel the same way as you. I WOULD feel better if those around me and my kids were vaccinated. I just don't value "my feeling better" as anything that anyone else should be worried about. Or that our policy should address. Or that the law should be subordinate to. A lot - too much - of our recent policy seems predicated on that most subjective (and elusive) of standards and we're not better off for it (it's only serving to deepen our divisiveness).
There's a muddy line between "I feel safer" and "I am safer". I was reading this morning, I think it was in Kentucky, all patients currently in ICU with Covid under the age of 50 are not vaccinated. It's clear that communities as a whole are safer if vaccinated (see CT's rates). I don't just feel safer with speed limits on the highway, I am safer, even if some people choose to ignore those limits. That's kind of where I'm at with this.
This is the right move as far as public safety goes, though it doesn't sit perfectly square with me. Seeing as employees still have the option to get tested weekly instead of outright being fired for not being vaccinated, I'm a bit more oaky with it I think.
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Who's paying for all this testing though? Does it come out of the employee pocket? Insurance? The government?
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Who said the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Surak3.jpg)
Glad I could contribute.
Was going to jump all over that question but see it was addressed. But then realized... I have no idea who the hell that is.
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This is MAYBE a short-term win (at best) and almost definitely a long-term mistake
I kinda agree. I don't think this is a wise way to use a stick.
(https://y.yarn.co/3ecf048d-3a14-4552-827d-f3fe69c0761f_text.gif)
However, if everyone has the option to provide negative tests as an alternative, I'm fully on-board with that.
Who's paying for all this testing though? Does it come out of the employee pocket? Insurance? The government?
This is a good question. If it all of a sudden becomes a personal expense to prove you (royal) are COVID free weekly, or more frequently, I'd surmise the vax rates will go up rather dramatically.
I was watching a Civil Rights lawyer interviewed recently, and part of his commentary/message was twofold. First, all of the vaccine "mandates" or passports are simply ways of "credentialling" people. We as a society do this ALL... THE ... TIME. So, this is simply just a new form of a credential that is needed for access to various places/services. Second, so long as there is an alternate option or choice, nothing is being "mandated". IE, if someone can forego the vax, but still comply to get their credentials via testing or some other option, then they rights (fundamental, constitutional, otherwise) are not being infringed.
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Here's what Louis Rossman has to say about it, being a business owner himself...
Louis Anthony Rossmann (born November 19, 1988)[2][3] is an American independent repair technician, YouTube personality, and right to repair activist. He is the owner and operator of Rossmann Repair Group in New York City, a computer repair shop established in 2007 which specializes in logic board-level repair of MacBooks. Rossmann rose in popularity with his YouTube channel showing his repairs to provide as an educational resource, frequently live streaming repairs on YouTube, Twitch, and Vimeo.[4] On his YouTube channel, he also uploads tutorials on life, business practices, real estate, and right to repair videos. Rossmann has actively campaigned for right to repair legislation to be passed in multiple cities and state legislatures.
https://youtu.be/SnTJtyWIP1w
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They only brought it on themselves.
They know nothing of personal responsibility.
That's rich coming from a guy who is essentially advocating making other people do things against their will to comply with his personal wishes. ;) :angel:
This is MAYBE a short-term win (at best) and almost definitely a long-term mistake. It's also going to make the anti-abortion argument that much easier.
When I refer to personal responsibility I am actually being sarcastic because I remember when the the W years turned into to the Obama years and one of the conservatives talking points was "personal responsibility" which was always BS. Now the unvaccinated claim "my body my choice" which women having been screaming at the top of their lungs for years yet guess who gets their choice taken away?
As if the liberal talking point isn't? If you have two issues, and two parties on either side, and one side are hypocrites, BY DEFINITION the other side are hypocrites as well. I'm a personal autonomy guy; I personally think our duty is to ourselves, and anything else is a bonus. I'm not here to defend a group position, or defend OTHER people's hypocrisy. Ask them. I'm advocating for MY position and I'm fairly comfortable that I am consistent across most/all topics on this.
If the you interpret, however incorrectly, that I want the unvaccinated to bow to my will then so be it but always remember that the needs of the many outweigh the needs or wants of the few. Nobody is body slamming the unvaxxed and jabbing them with a needle but you want to have certain perceived freedoms then get vaxxed. I think United is about to furlough employees that are unvaxxed. It's their choice or would you want to take that choice away? Sounds like you do.....
Who said the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? I don't accept that as a foundational gospel. And even if we do agree on that, we have a LOT of things to discuss, because you're just trading one hypocrisy for another at this point. What is the "needs of the many" with allowing individuals to select their bathroom, or select their gender? What is the "needs of the many" with the idea of celebrating obesity? What is the "needs of the many" with ignoring the crippling divisiveness in our country and continuing on with "slamming deplroables" and "pwning libtards" (in quotes only to distinguish discrete ideas, not to directly quote anyone).
BTW - you consistently use insults to make a point and I would think that a man with multiple degrees and being a lawyer could make a point without resorting to this kind of language.
You'll have to point out the insult; I mean nothing here personally. I attack ideas, yes, but I do not attack people (unless CLEARLY defending myself from same, and usually not even then). "Disagreeing with someone" shouldn't be "insulting". If it is, we have a MUCH bigger problem (and that certainly explains a lot of the national divisiveness we're experiencing, if that's how some people feel).
You're so full of it. You make the above statement and then you try to lessen it with cute emojis, not for my benefit but so you can placate the moderators. "oh look at me sir, I'm innocent". I am convinced you don't want any real conversation but you just want to be right.
Just like a lawyer..... :-\
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Hunnus, knock it off. The only one being confrontational and insulting in this conversation is you. Stop the personal attacks and insults.
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Hunnus, knock it off. The only one being confrontational and insulting in this conversation is you. Stop the personal attacks and insults.
It wasn't me who personally attacked and you know it. And I am NOT the confrontational one jn this conversation.
BOSK - At least be fair and consistent.
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I might be a skeleton before a mod honors my PR request
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:corn
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Hunnus, knock it off. The only one being confrontational and insulting in this conversation is you. Stop the personal attacks and insults.
It wasn't me who personally attacked and you know it. And I am NOT the confrontational one jn this conversation.
BOSK - At least be fair and consistent.
Yes, you actually are. For clarification, here are some examples:
Check your reading comprehension. ... :angry:
You're so full of it.
I am convinced you don't want any real conversation but you just want to be right.
Just like a lawyer..... :-\
Each taken by itself, probably not too far over the line. But taken as a whole, with the hostile tone of several of your posts on this topic, show a very hostile tone and look like an intent to belittle another user and bait him into a fight rather that discussing the topic at hand.
Stadler's posts, in contrast, have none of that namecalling, baiting, and taking passive-aggressive personal shots. Yours do. You've been warned. Read it and heed it, or ignore it and deal with the consequences. Your can discuss the issue respectfully, or you can see yourself out. I would prefer to see you stay because, for one thing, you make really good points and you bring valuable perspective (not only in this thread, but elsewhere). But, as Stadler put it, attack the argument (and feel free to do so vigorously), not the person. Your call how you choose to proceed.
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I know I am not alone in this, but I am torn on this whole mandate. On the one hand, if it gets more people vaccinated, that is a great thing, but on the other hand, I am not sure this is the best way to go about it. Don't ask me what a better way is because I honestly do not know. It just feels like this mandate is not the right move at this time.
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I know I am not alone in this, but I am torn on this whole mandate. On the one hand, if it gets more people vaccinated, that is a great thing, but on the other hand, I am not sure this is the best way to go about it. Don't ask me what a better way is because I honestly do not know. It just feels like this mandate is not the right move at this time.
It's such a tough decision. I'm with you. I'm torn.
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I know I am not alone in this, but I am torn on this whole mandate. On the one hand, if it gets more people vaccinated, that is a great thing, but on the other hand, I am not sure this is the best way to go about it. Don't ask me what a better way is because I honestly do not know. It just feels like this mandate is not the right move at this time.
It's such a tough decision. I'm with you. I'm torn.
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/digitalspyuk.cdnds.net/17/34/1503658682-giphy-50.gif?crop=1xw:0.6666666666666666xh;center,top&resize=640:*)
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I know I am not alone in this, but I am torn on this whole mandate. On the one hand, if it gets more people vaccinated, that is a great thing, but on the other hand, I am not sure this is the best way to go about it. Don't ask me what a better way is because I honestly do not know. It just feels like this mandate is not the right move at this time.
It's such a tough decision. I'm with you. I'm torn.
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/digitalspyuk.cdnds.net/17/34/1503658682-giphy-50.gif?crop=1xw:0.6666666666666666xh;center,top&resize=640:*)
(https://i.gifer.com/2DQ.gif)
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I know I am not alone in this, but I am torn on this whole mandate. On the one hand, if it gets more people vaccinated, that is a great thing, but on the other hand, I am not sure this is the best way to go about it. Don't ask me what a better way is because I honestly do not know. It just feels like this mandate is not the right move at this time.
It's such a tough decision. I'm with you. I'm torn.
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/digitalspyuk.cdnds.net/17/34/1503658682-giphy-50.gif?crop=1xw:0.6666666666666666xh;center,top&resize=640:*)
(https://i.gifer.com/2DQ.gif)
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/WaCqurI4KXOxO/200w.gif?cid=82a1493b1uvrvl9pv2nejw29koz7ytkt63azhornvim09eea&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
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You don't want to see me lying naked on the floor.
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You don't want to see me lying naked on the floor.
This is how I feel.
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You don't want to see me lying naked on the floor.
This is how I feel.
I can't tell you how thrilled I am that you got this. :lol
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I love that song! ;D
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(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/61201221/i-just-felt-a-tingle-up-my-leg.jpg)
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Better than down.
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Can someone please answer this?
We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".
How effed up is that?
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Can someone please answer this?
We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".
How effed up is that?
Oh deep down I do have a problem with it....It's the same issue I have with insurance, which leads me to believe Insurance is bullshit.
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Can someone please answer this?
We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".
How effed up is that?
There is a segment of antivaxxers who are against the initial vitamin K shot given at birth that helps blood clotting until the newborn can produce its own. I always felt it's an end product of shitty scientific education in our public schools
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Can someone please answer this?
We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".
How effed up is that?
I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.
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Here's a great video about...
the Psychology of Conformity (https://youtu.be/ARGczzoPASo)
This might help those whom just can't seem to understand how people are vastly different to where they do not think or feel the same as you.
And another on...
Why an Obsession With Safety creates Sick Minds and a Sick Society (https://youtu.be/e3EsCIjvrSw)
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Can someone please answer this?
We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".
How effed up is that?
I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.
OK - take out the "Merican" statement and continue to answer the question.
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I'll get this one: I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "
Merican freedom," but you do you.
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I'll get this one: I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.
It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! :angel:
So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can....... :tdwn
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I'll get this one: I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.
It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! :angel:
So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can....... :tdwn
One answer I could give you that could be possible is...
People have different thresholds, how far is one willing to play along? How far is one willing to take all the lashes? How far is one willing to just deal with it?
Drivers Licenses: Here in New Mexico we have what you call two forms of ID's because we are refugee state. This caused such a burden on the citizens already living here as we are now required to have this RealID in order to fly, and visit Federal Buildings. Doesn't help matters that our Motor Vehicle Department isn't quite adept and doesn't actually function well. People barely tolerate that enough as it is.
Marriage License: This is recognized by the State and is meant for legal purposes such as Taxes. Otherwise this is done by the religion that performs the marriage ceremony. In this case, it's done by a judge. When you get married in the catholic church, you sign two documents one to have your marriage recognized by the state, and the other that recognizes the marriage by the church.
These do not infringe on a persons freedom of choice as much as a mandated medical product does. A mandated medical product infringes on a persons right to privacy, as it stands, we're on that thin line of deciding whether the government has a right to determine whether your Bodily Autonomy is considered a "Privacy Right". What gives the government the right to determine what you should, and how you should treat your body? What gives the authority the right to determine and define what is considered healthy and a threat for the sanctity of the "Public Health"?
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I'll get this one: I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.
It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! :angel:
So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can....... :tdwn
One answer I could give you that could be possible is...
People have different thresholds, how far is one willing to play along? How far is one willing to take all the lashes? How far is one willing to just deal with it?
Drivers Licenses: Here in New Mexico we have what you call two forms of ID's because we are refugee state. This caused such a burden on the citizens already living here as we are now required to have this RealID in order to fly, and visit Federal Buildings. Doesn't help matters that our Motor Vehicle Department isn't quite adept and doesn't actually function well. People barely tolerate that enough as it is.
Marriage License: This is recognized by the State and is meant for legal purposes such as Taxes. Otherwise this is done by the religion that performs the marriage ceremony. In this case, it's done by a judge. When you get married in the catholic church, you sign two documents one to have your marriage recognized by the state, and the other that recognizes the marriage by the church.
These do not infringe on a persons freedom of choice as much as a mandated medical product does. A mandated medical product infringes on a persons right to privacy, as it stands, we're on that thin line of deciding whether the government has a right to determine whether your Bodily Autonomy is considered a "Privacy Right". What gives the government the right to determine what you should, and how you should treat your body? What gives the authority the right to determine and define what is considered healthy and a threat for the sanctity of the "Public Health"?
Thanks for your response Ben!
Bodily autonomy is an interesting use of words when we mandate the use of other vaccines such as polio, chickenpox and hepatitis. And we mandate these for our kids! :omg:
I'm with you about your right to privacy from the government but they have already taken that away from you.
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I'll get this one: I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.
It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! :angel:
So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can....... :tdwn
One answer I could give you that could be possible is...
People have different thresholds, how far is one willing to play along? How far is one willing to take all the lashes? How far is one willing to just deal with it?
Drivers Licenses: Here in New Mexico we have what you call two forms of ID's because we are refugee state. This caused such a burden on the citizens already living here as we are now required to have this RealID in order to fly, and visit Federal Buildings. Doesn't help matters that our Motor Vehicle Department isn't quite adept and doesn't actually function well. People barely tolerate that enough as it is.
Marriage License: This is recognized by the State and is meant for legal purposes such as Taxes. Otherwise this is done by the religion that performs the marriage ceremony. In this case, it's done by a judge. When you get married in the catholic church, you sign two documents one to have your marriage recognized by the state, and the other that recognizes the marriage by the church.
These do not infringe on a persons freedom of choice as much as a mandated medical product does. A mandated medical product infringes on a persons right to privacy, as it stands, we're on that thin line of deciding whether the government has a right to determine whether your Bodily Autonomy is considered a "Privacy Right". What gives the government the right to determine what you should, and how you should treat your body? What gives the authority the right to determine and define what is considered healthy and a threat for the sanctity of the "Public Health"?
Thanks for your response Ben!
Bodily autonomy is an interesting use of words when we mandate the use of other vaccines such as polio, chickenpox and hepatitis. And we mandate these for our kids! :omg:
I'm with you about your right to privacy from the government but they have already taken that away from you.
Right to Privacy and Bodily Autonomy means that no one person can force, and shouldn't really be coercing, you into doing things to your body against your will. That's very different from voluntarily giving that one person permission for them too do it, which is the consent we give our doctors and those medical professionals when we agree to trust their knowledge and expertise. It's the consent form each person signed when they got their vaccinations, stating you are voluntarily allowing the person to administer the vaccine into your body and they will not be held liable for any side effects.
This is why Medical Malpractice should be a really hefty penalty for the consequences involved. Because Dr. Nick Riviera should be held accountable for his negligent and ignorant knowledge of Medicine and lack of expertise in the medical field. Unless they're a psychopathic doctor like Dr. John Story... (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/905254.Doc)
Found this article fascinating...
https://medium.com/inside-of-elle-beau/body-autonomy-is-protected-by-the-constitution-ede4fb256ebb
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I'll get this one: I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.
It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! :angel:
So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can....... :tdwn
Your prediction is correct--I cannot. But that is because, as Hef noted before me and I echoed, the question assumes something that is false.
And, no, it's not about you. It's about calling out behavior that is unnecessarily confrontational and childish, which yours has been in this thread. Four other people have gotten warnings for similar behavior in the last few days, so if you think you are being singled out, you are mistaken and could benefit from dropping the persecution complex and doing some self-examination.
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I'll get this one: I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.
It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! :angel:
So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can....... :tdwn
Your prediction is correct--I cannot. But that is because, as Hef noted before me and I echoed, the question assumes something that is false.
And, no, it's not about you. It's about calling out behavior that is unnecessarily confrontational and childish, which yours has been in this thread. Four other people have gotten warnings for similar behavior in the last few days, so if you think you are being singled out, you are mistaken and could benefit from dropping the persecution complex and doing some self-examination.
You guys respond to my post in a snarky manner and yet I'm the one being called out as childish? Sorry, no need for self-reflection on my part.
But back to my question, what is that "assumes something that is false"?
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This is MAYBE a short-term win (at best) and almost definitely a long-term mistake
I kinda agree. I don't think this is a wise way to use a stick.
(https://y.yarn.co/3ecf048d-3a14-4552-827d-f3fe69c0761f_text.gif)
However, if everyone has the option to provide negative tests as an alternative, I'm fully on-board with that.
Who's paying for all this testing though? Does it come out of the employee pocket? Insurance? The government?
This is a good question. If it all of a sudden becomes a personal expense to prove you (royal) are COVID free weekly, or more frequently, I'd surmise the vax rates will go up rather dramatically.
I was watching a Civil Rights lawyer interviewed recently, and part of his commentary/message was twofold. First, all of the vaccine "mandates" or passports are simply ways of "credentialling" people. We as a society do this ALL... THE ... TIME. So, this is simply just a new form of a credential that is needed for access to various places/services. Second, so long as there is an alternate option or choice, nothing is being "mandated". IE, if someone can forego the vax, but still comply to get their credentials via testing or some other option, then they rights (fundamental, constitutional, otherwise) are not being infringed.
We CREDENTIAL all the time, but - and yes, Chad, I know you're not exactly saying this - we don't (necessarily) force people to change their body chemistry all the time. Hey, since we're at it, maybe we should make people eat the proper ratio of carbs/protein/fats? Maybe we should force people to take anti-depressants. Sterilization is a fantastic idea; don't want those deplorables to be breeding now, do we? I'm kidding, but see there ARE differences in this, and minimizing those differences does nothing to change minds. It just reinforces the anti-vaxxer's feelings of not being heard.
Though I am fully in agreement with you on your second point; if there is a way out so that it truly is a choice, then I'm all for it (that's largely the structure for administered vaccines already).
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I might be a skeleton before a mod honors my PR request, so questions of legality aside (of which I have many), I will say this:
I hope, at least, that it works. I'm not thrilled about having to return to the office, but I'll feel better if I know that over 75% of my coworkers are vaccinated.
I'm not thrilled about having to keep a child in daycare, but I'll feel better knowing that the staff are mostly all vaccinated and that the parents of the children are, too.
The interesting thing is, I'm against this largely (though if it really is a choice - vaccine or test - then I'm a lot more comfortable with it) but even so, I feel the same way as you. I WOULD feel better if those around me and my kids were vaccinated. I just don't value "my feeling better" as anything that anyone else should be worried about. Or that our policy should address. Or that the law should be subordinate to. A lot - too much - of our recent policy seems predicated on that most subjective (and elusive) of standards and we're not better off for it (it's only serving to deepen our divisiveness).
Don't twist it - my feelings are based on pretty realistic views on the pandemic and what it is doing to people around the world, as well as substantial evidence that vaccines are an immediate and effective answer. I don't see the law as subordinating to feelings here, whether they're mine or anyone elses. Taking it a step further, I'm not sure I agree that the law is being subordinated at all.
I'm not intending to twist anything: I was agreeing with your simple statement that I would feel better if people around me were vaccinated. The rest was just my explanation of where I prioritized MY feelings, no one else's.
Not that I would necessarily care if it the law was, in fact, being subordinated.
Unfortunately, though, we don't get to pick and choose what laws we follow and what laws we ignore. That's what laws are: the one (legal) way that others can force you to act.
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This is MAYBE a short-term win (at best) and almost definitely a long-term mistake
I kinda agree. I don't think this is a wise way to use a stick.
(https://y.yarn.co/3ecf048d-3a14-4552-827d-f3fe69c0761f_text.gif)
However, if everyone has the option to provide negative tests as an alternative, I'm fully on-board with that.
Who's paying for all this testing though? Does it come out of the employee pocket? Insurance? The government?
This is a good question. If it all of a sudden becomes a personal expense to prove you (royal) are COVID free weekly, or more frequently, I'd surmise the vax rates will go up rather dramatically.
I was watching a Civil Rights lawyer interviewed recently, and part of his commentary/message was twofold. First, all of the vaccine "mandates" or passports are simply ways of "credentialling" people. We as a society do this ALL... THE ... TIME. So, this is simply just a new form of a credential that is needed for access to various places/services. Second, so long as there is an alternate option or choice, nothing is being "mandated". IE, if someone can forego the vax, but still comply to get their credentials via testing or some other option, then they rights (fundamental, constitutional, otherwise) are not being infringed.
We CREDENTIAL all the time, but - and yes, Chad, I know you're not exactly saying this - we don't (necessarily) force people to change their body chemistry all the time. Hey, since we're at it, maybe we should make people eat the proper ratio of carbs/protein/fats? Maybe we should force people to take anti-depressants. Sterilization is a fantastic idea; don't want those deplorables to be breeding now, do we? I'm kidding, but see there ARE differences in this, and minimizing those differences does nothing to change minds. It just reinforces the anti-vaxxer's feelings of not being heard.
Though I am fully in agreement with you on your second point; if there is a way out so that it truly is a choice, then I'm all for it (that's largely the structure for administered vaccines already).
And then those choices will end up being "the lesser of two evils" choice like how this past election was. You can either have the Trump or The Biden....it's one reason I really wish I could see an alternate outcome to see if the shoe would've been the same, just worn on the other foot.
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Can someone please answer this?
We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".
How effed up is that?
There are two questions in that post: Yes, I can answer this. Zero. It is zero effed up. And I've already explained why numerous times. I don't change my body chemistry to get a driver's license. Nor am I FORCED to get a driver's license if I don't want one. I can still go see Steel Panther on Saturday if I have a driver's license or not. I don't change my body chemistry to get a marriage license. Nor am I FORCED to marry if I don't want to. I can still go to see Steel Panther on Saturday if I am married or not. There are no LAWS I know of that FORCE the battery of tests (yes, some students have to get a physical, but it's not a MANDATE since you can opt to home school if you don't want to go through the examination). And I would not assume that no one "bat's an eye"; that they exist doesn't mean that everyone necessarily agrees with them.
For me, its not about the certification or the licensure; if I get the vaccine of my own accord, I have no problem at all with measures that force me to declare that, or present proof. That's a driver's license. That's a marriage license. Where my objection starts is any point after which it's not my decision and my decision alone as to whether that needle goes in my arm. Period.
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I'll get this one: I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.
It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! :angel:
So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can....... :tdwn
I did. Multiple times. I think the onus is on you now to see if you ACKNOWLEDGE the answer. Not "agree with it", since I don't care about "being right", just acknowledge it as a legitimate answer.
And for the record, I despise the euphemism "'murican". I think it's demeaning, dismissive, and insulting. (I mean generally; I'm not accusing you of any of those things.).
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I'll get this one: I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.
It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! :angel:
So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can....... :tdwn
I did. Multiple times. I think the onus is on you now to see if you ACKNOWLEDGE the answer. Not "agree with it", since I don't care about "being right", just acknowledge it as a legitimate answer.
And for the record, I despise the euphemism "'murican". I think it's demeaning, dismissive, and insulting. (I mean generally; I'm not accusing you of any of those things.).
It's hilarious because that's the generalization term for an American. Your dumb, hillbilly, southern accent, watches NASCAR and eats nothing but Fast Food...'Murican.
When I hear that term that's what I picture.... :lol
Reminds me of how when people think of an "Indian" they see us in teepees, pow-wows, just in g-string, smoking tobacco and making smoke signals. :lol
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Can someone please answer this?
We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".
How effed up is that?
There are two questions in that post: Yes, I can answer this. Zero. It is zero effed up. And I've already explained why numerous times. I don't change my body chemistry to get a driver's license. Nor am I FORCED to get a driver's license if I don't want one. I can still go see Steel Panther on Saturday if I have a driver's license or not. I don't change my body chemistry to get a marriage license. Nor am I FORCED to marry if I don't want to. I can still go to see Steel Panther on Saturday if I am married or not. There are no LAWS I know of that FORCE the battery of tests (yes, some students have to get a physical, but it's not a MANDATE since you can opt to home school if you don't want to go through the examination). And I would not assume that no one "bat's an eye"; that they exist doesn't mean that everyone necessarily agrees with them.
For me, its not about the certification or the licensure; if I get the vaccine of my own accord, I have no problem at all with measures that force me to declare that, or present proof. That's a driver's license. That's a marriage license. Where my objection starts is any point after which it's not my decision and my decision alone as to whether that needle goes in my arm. Period.
My bigger point was the irony of how people act with laws and mandates and not thinking twice about vs. how they lose their shit regarding this vaccine. Most people (I will include myself) don't think about certain things to the level you do.
I will say it again, I m not wanting to round people up and jab them but I am all for restricting their rights. We do this ALL THE TIME!
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I see where you're digging at, and yes the current vaccine has pressed some magical butthurt button across our society. The only thing I think, personal opinion here folks....is that it shows how glaringly privelaged the US is across the board. We have so little suffering that occurs on the regular in other places that we have to manufacture it, and for some reason, the covid vax has clicked all the right boxes at just the right time even though the overwhelming scientific evidence states that it's safe, effective, and the easiest way out of the pandemic.
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I'll get this one: I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.
It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! :angel:
So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can....... :tdwn
I did. Multiple times. I think the onus is on you now to see if you ACKNOWLEDGE the answer. Not "agree with it", since I don't care about "being right", just acknowledge it as a legitimate answer.
And for the record, I despise the euphemism "'murican". I think it's demeaning, dismissive, and insulting. (I mean generally; I'm not accusing you of any of those things.).
No, your spot on. That's exactly how I meant to use the term. But for the record, not to be denigrating but if that term incites a certain stereotype image then so be it. It's where I live. My neighbor was not going to get vaccinated. He's pretty much a redneck but in general a good guy. He buried his mother last Friday who died from covid and he is feeling pretty guilty that he was the one who gave it to her. He is getting vaxxed but it had to take a dead mother to push the needle forward. ( no pun intended)
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Can someone please answer this?
We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".
How effed up is that?
There are two questions in that post: Yes, I can answer this. Zero. It is zero effed up. And I've already explained why numerous times. I don't change my body chemistry to get a driver's license. Nor am I FORCED to get a driver's license if I don't want one. I can still go see Steel Panther on Saturday if I have a driver's license or not. I don't change my body chemistry to get a marriage license. Nor am I FORCED to marry if I don't want to. I can still go to see Steel Panther on Saturday if I am married or not. There are no LAWS I know of that FORCE the battery of tests (yes, some students have to get a physical, but it's not a MANDATE since you can opt to home school if you don't want to go through the examination). And I would not assume that no one "bat's an eye"; that they exist doesn't mean that everyone necessarily agrees with them.
For me, its not about the certification or the licensure; if I get the vaccine of my own accord, I have no problem at all with measures that force me to declare that, or present proof. That's a driver's license. That's a marriage license. Where my objection starts is any point after which it's not my decision and my decision alone as to whether that needle goes in my arm. Period.
My bigger point was the irony of how people act with laws and mandates and not thinking twice about vs. how they lose their shit regarding this vaccine. Most people (I will include myself) don't think about certain things to the level you do.
I will say it again, I m not wanting to round people up and jab them but I am all for restricting their rights. We do this ALL THE TIME!
Yes we DO. But THIS is not the same threshold of tolerance as those things because THIS involves the inclusion of Privacy of the Body, and what one can dictate you are required of to be a part of the society.
It's how China can now say they don't want none of that LGTBQ feminization as it is detrimental to their overall "Public Health" of the boys/males not being Masculine enough to fight. And are doing things to make the boys, Men. Rather than a man who will complain like a women and start crying on the battlefield with their emotions and compassion. They, China, dictate that is not what their military requires of the men.
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I see where you're digging at, and yes the current vaccine has pressed some magical butthurt button across our society. The only thing I think, personal opinion here folks....is that it shows how glaringly privelaged the US is across the board. We have so little suffering that occurs on the regular in other places that we have to manufacture it, and for some reason, the covid vax has clicked all the right boxes at just the right time even though the overwhelming scientific evidence states that it's safe, effective, and the easiest way out of the pandemic.
The vaccine has nothing to do with the why of people....
I feel, it has to do with Trust, and the Trust the authorities have over their people. When that trust is pretty much gone, what makes you think they'll abide and obey their orders if that trust is gone?
These same people are also losing Trust in their own religious leaders.
If the Authorities weren't doing questionable actions and making questionable decisions that do not benefit the people, while disregarding the common folk and people, why should the people trust them?
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That lack of trust is a key sign to how fucking spoiled we are, that we can blindly question people who make it their life's work to understand these things without a shred of credible fucking evidence, and then propagate it like weeds across the internet through every idiot's token social media platform. It's what has devastated any sense of social responsibility across the board.
It's easy to point a finger at 'the man' and act all fucking righteous about it, and it makes you think you're on the side of truth and justice and whatever other bullshit lies you tell yourself to feel better about it, but in the end it's just killing people.
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I'll get this one: I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.
It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! :angel:
So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can....... :tdwn
I did. Multiple times. I think the onus is on you now to see if you ACKNOWLEDGE the answer. Not "agree with it", since I don't care about "being right", just acknowledge it as a legitimate answer.
And for the record, I despise the euphemism "'murican". I think it's demeaning, dismissive, and insulting. (I mean generally; I'm not accusing you of any of those things.).
No, your spot on. That's exactly how I meant to use the term. But for the record, not to be denigrating but if that term incites a certain stereotype image then so be it.
Sound pretty consistent with how Stdler uses the term “deplorable”. If the shoe fits ....
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That lack of trust is a key sign to how fucking spoiled we are, that we can blindly question people who make it their life's work to understand these things without a shred of credible fucking evidence, and then propagate it like weeds across the internet through every idiot's token social media platform. It's what has devastated any sense of social responsibility across the board.
It's easy to point a finger at 'the man' and act all fucking righteous about it, and it makes you think you're on the side of truth and justice and whatever other bullshit lies you tell yourself to feel better about it, but in the end it's just killing people.
That's not how a Democracy was meant to work though. There should have been no "career politicians". Anyone has that right to run for president. And I have no idea where having to fundraise money and accept businesses interest donations, and all that came into the game.
My issue with the Big Pharmaceuticals and Science experts, are how they have not researched or actually studied certain aspects of plants, and the healing properties. Especially cannabis. They withhold data and information by not researching or studying these things because so and so dictates it's not worth the time and money to study and research.
People blindly accept any data as factual, and that is based on Trust. You trust that the person doing the research, doing the study, is honest, and has an intent on helping humanity. One should not let his Ego get in the way of studies and research. Also, even if that scientist does discover something that is life-changing...Will the supposed Academic Experts agree or call him a quack and loon...Like they have done to many, many, many discoveries before.
And yes, I agree, Americans are spoiled, always want more, and are never satisfied with what they got, and they just have to have the latest fashion trend and brand new car. :biggrin:
Edit: Adding this about "Voluntary Servitude"
https://youtu.be/PBsA7S8jxfU
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Trust me, if there was profit to be made from plants, Big Pharma would find it. They're more than ready to squeeze every fucking nickel out of this planet. But they also have to have a viable product, which at most times they do.
There is no logical explanation on why someone shouldn't take the vaccine if they aren't medically incapable of it. None. Zip. Zero. The evidence after a couple billion vaccines administered is way too overwhelming. It is our way out, to deny that fact is just stupid.
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It's going to be an interesting couple months. Between lawsuits and mass resignations, we will be in for a bumpy ride. Just read a piece about a hospital in New York where they will have to temporarily shut down labor and delivery because most of the nurses quit.
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Trust me, if there was profit to be made from plants, Big Pharma would find it. They're more than ready to squeeze every fucking nickel out of this planet. But they also have to have a viable product, which at most times they do.
There is no logical explanation on why someone shouldn't take the vaccine if they aren't medically incapable of it. None. Zip. Zero. The evidence after a couple billion vaccines administered is way too overwhelming. It is our way out, to deny that fact is just stupid.
They already found the profits in the pharmaceuticals, the pills and serums they manufacture from these plants. This is the foundation for them being called "Big Pharma", there would be no "Big Pharma" if they did not already find their profit maker.
But the issue isn't that....It's the rollout, the distribution, the mandating, for what they dictate is considered a "Public Health" threat. And some people actually do not see it as a big threat as most people do. This is related to demographics of the population. The more populated a city is, the less area there is for the population to live on, the more health issues and other "Public Health" issues will arise. This is because there is over-population and the city needs to expand, but then there is no more land to expand upon. So what did humans do...They built up, and made ways around having to expand.
Now, Travel is another area that does impact how a virus spreads. Why are people taking the vaccine? So they can travel and can go do things. But was that supposed "Normal" really worth it. As it stands, it was never the utopia or the greatest thing on Earth. It was in need of a reset to build back better, to make America great again.
Klaus Schwab did write a book titled "The Great Reset", that is a fact. I bought it on Amazon Kindle. That alone should make one wonder, why would someone write that book, and he is the head man of the "World Economic Forum"
It's going to be an interesting couple months. Between lawsuits and mass resignations, we will be in for a bumpy ride. Just read a piece about a hospital in New York where they will have to temporarily shut down labor and delivery because most of the nurses quit.
Yes it is. And this is the consequence that people knew was going to occur with that decision to mandate the vaccines. Which is why people did not want the mandate because the long term consequences may possibly be worse than the disease itself.
And while we're at it...Let's consider the topic of the term "Choices"
https://youtu.be/GB0aaVB2oEI
Host Harry Kreisler welcomes writer Michael Pollan for a discussion of the agricultural industrial complex that dominates consumer choices about what to eat. He explores the origins, evolution and consequences of this system for the nations health and environment. He highlights the role of science, journalism, and politics in the development of a diet that emphasizes nutrition over food. Pollan also sketches a reform agenda and speculates on how a movement might change Americas eating habits. He also talks about science writing, the rewards of gardening, and how students might prepare for the future. Series: Conversations with History [2/2009] [Public Affairs] [Agriculture] [Show ID: 15882]
We can have choices, but what happens when the choices themselves are not great as they are. What happens when these choices are manipulated on how the person comes to a decision they want them to make, and coerce them to make that decision?
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It's going to be an interesting couple months. Between lawsuits and mass resignations, we will be in for a bumpy ride. Just read a piece about a hospital in New York where they will have to temporarily shut down labor and delivery because most of the nurses quit.
So where they gonna work?
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we don't (necessarily) force people to change their body chemistry all the time. Hey, since we're at it, maybe we should make people eat the proper ratio of carbs/protein/fats? Maybe we should force people to take anti-depressants. Sterilization is a fantastic idea; don't want those deplorables to be breeding now, do we? I'm kidding, but see there ARE differences in this, and minimizing those differences does nothing to change minds. It just reinforces the anti-vaxxer's feelings of not being heard.
I think I get what you are saying here but one small point of order. "Force people to change their body chemistry" is kind of a misnomer. I say this because everything we are exposed to changes our body chemistry. Drive in traffic? You are breathing in car exhaust that changes our body chemistry. Use pesticides (organic or synthetic) on crops we then ingest and these can disrupt our body chemistry. Give antibiotics to cows that go into steaks? Microwave or heat up certain plastics? Hell, even use scare tactics in advertising and you guessed it - our body chemistry is changed.
If we are going to run with this analogy, you could make the case that for some people, the fear of being vaccinated changes body chemistry and for some other people the fear of those around them NOT being vaccinated changes body chemistry. Right? I mean, there is a plethora of science devoted to cortisol release in humans that show evidence of being causative for chronic illnesses, like heart disease.
Maybe it is semantics, but I think we need to be careful with this language here. We are "forced" to change our body chemistry all the time. Most of us just don't spend a lot of time thinking about it like that. And maybe these ways of thinking (not directed at you here) are part of the problem with people not understanding how science - specifically the science around vaccines - work.
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It's going to be an interesting couple months. Between lawsuits and mass resignations, we will be in for a bumpy ride. Just read a piece about a hospital in New York where they will have to temporarily shut down labor and delivery because most of the nurses quit.
So where they gonna work?
Good question. Seems like they don't care. Eventually the need to pay the bills and eat will cause some recalculation of their position(s). Maybe.
The flip side is that so many people quit, sectors of the economy grind to a halt. Not likely but possible. The moms who were going to have their babies at that hospital now need a plan B. At the macro level, across many industries, it could get dicey. A game of vaccine mandate chicken.
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we don't (necessarily) force people to change their body chemistry all the time. Hey, since we're at it, maybe we should make people eat the proper ratio of carbs/protein/fats? Maybe we should force people to take anti-depressants. Sterilization is a fantastic idea; don't want those deplorables to be breeding now, do we? I'm kidding, but see there ARE differences in this, and minimizing those differences does nothing to change minds. It just reinforces the anti-vaxxer's feelings of not being heard.
I think I get what you are saying here but one small point of order. "Force people to change their body chemistry" is kind of a misnomer. I say this because everything we are exposed to changes our body chemistry. Drive in traffic? You are breathing in car exhaust that changes our body chemistry. Use pesticides (organic or synthetic) on crops we then ingest and these can disrupt our body chemistry. Give antibiotics to cows that go into steaks? Microwave or heat up certain plastics? Hell, even use scare tactics in advertising and you guessed it - our body chemistry is changed.
If we are going to run with this analogy, you could make the case that for some people, the fear of being vaccinated changes body chemistry and for some other people the fear of those around them NOT being vaccinated changes body chemistry. Right? I mean, there is a plethora of science devoted to cortisol release in humans that show evidence of being causative for chronic illnesses, like heart disease.
Maybe it is semantics, but I think we need to be careful with this language here. We are "forced" to change our body chemistry all the time. Most of us just don't spend a lot of time thinking about it like that. And maybe these ways of thinking (not directed at you here) are part of the problem with people not understanding how science - specifically the science around vaccines - work.
Watch that last video I posted. It explains the consequences of having all these body chemistry changing things in our foods. Which are a lot of the underlying conditions that are causing people to become susceptible to Covid-19.
Back then, they didn't care about long term consequences, they cared about the right now. And this led to the neglect of the future generations that are living the consequences which is causing our bodies to have these health issues.
It also explains how Science also tends to work politucally as those food scientists allowed these chemicals and other things to go into the soil.
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It's going to be an interesting couple months. Between lawsuits and mass resignations, we will be in for a bumpy ride. Just read a piece about a hospital in New York where they will have to temporarily shut down labor and delivery because most of the nurses quit.
So where they gonna work?
There will be people who just leave the workforce to retire, or live off one income if they are married and their spouse works. My wife's school had at least 5 people retire last year who would have worked longer, but just didn't want to put up with remote learning/teaching during Covid. And this was before vaccine mandates. No way to know the % of the population this would apply to. If it means that much to them, they can seek out working for smaller employers to whom the mandate doesn't apply, or drive for Uber or do other gig work.
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Can someone please answer this?
We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".
How effed up is that?
There are two questions in that post: Yes, I can answer this. Zero. It is zero effed up. And I've already explained why numerous times. I don't change my body chemistry to get a driver's license. Nor am I FORCED to get a driver's license if I don't want one. I can still go see Steel Panther on Saturday if I have a driver's license or not. I don't change my body chemistry to get a marriage license. Nor am I FORCED to marry if I don't want to. I can still go to see Steel Panther on Saturday if I am married or not. There are no LAWS I know of that FORCE the battery of tests (yes, some students have to get a physical, but it's not a MANDATE since you can opt to home school if you don't want to go through the examination). And I would not assume that no one "bat's an eye"; that they exist doesn't mean that everyone necessarily agrees with them.
For me, its not about the certification or the licensure; if I get the vaccine of my own accord, I have no problem at all with measures that force me to declare that, or present proof. That's a driver's license. That's a marriage license. Where my objection starts is any point after which it's not my decision and my decision alone as to whether that needle goes in my arm. Period.
My bigger point was the irony of how people act with laws and mandates and not thinking twice about vs. how they lose their shit regarding this vaccine. Most people (I will include myself) don't think about certain things to the level you do.
I will say it again, I m not wanting to round people up and jab them but I am all for restricting their rights. We do this ALL THE TIME!
That, in and of itself, doesn't make it right.
The devil is in the details; if the restrictions are fair and reasonable, I'm with you 100%. If they become bullying (as they sometimes are), or are Draconian (as they sometimes are), then no. Do it right; have it be a fair balance of rights versus obligations. THAT'S how we do this all the time.
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I see where you're digging at, and yes the current vaccine has pressed some magical butthurt button across our society. The only thing I think, personal opinion here folks....is that it shows how glaringly privelaged the US is across the board. We have so little suffering that occurs on the regular in other places that we have to manufacture it, and for some reason, the covid vax has clicked all the right boxes at just the right time even though the overwhelming scientific evidence states that it's safe, effective, and the easiest way out of the pandemic.
We might disagree in the details (I think there's privilege, but also a crippling level of insecurity as well) and the examples we'd use, but I don't disagree with this generally at all.
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I'll get this one: I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.
It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! :angel:
So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can....... :tdwn
I did. Multiple times. I think the onus is on you now to see if you ACKNOWLEDGE the answer. Not "agree with it", since I don't care about "being right", just acknowledge it as a legitimate answer.
And for the record, I despise the euphemism "'murican". I think it's demeaning, dismissive, and insulting. (I mean generally; I'm not accusing you of any of those things.).
No, your spot on. That's exactly how I meant to use the term. But for the record, not to be denigrating but if that term incites a certain stereotype image then so be it.
Sound pretty consistent with how Stdler uses the term “deplorable”. If the shoe fits ....
But I don't use it to be demeaning, dismissive or denigrating. That's how HILLARY meant it, and that's the tone it's kept since then. I use it here because I don't believe there is this subset of "deplorable" Americans that are responsible for the problems facing our country. I use it to highlight that stereotype and how inappropriate it is in terms of our national discourse (even if you think it's true). I've made no bones about my belief that our divisiveness is our number one issue facing America; and I've also made no bones that it takes two to tango. I blame BOTH SIDES EQUALLY for our philosophical gridlock.
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We bought a box of the at-home covid tests, just to have in case we need them. Apparently they are now flying off of shelves as parents have to test their kids to keep them in school. $23 for two tests. Hopefully we don't need them.
Our school district sent a letter to parents advising that because of the demand in testing, the Test-to-Stay tests marked for schools are delayed. Our district had 43 kids home due to covid symptoms and 29 were forced to quarantine at home due to being identified as a close contact. Within 4 schools.
The district is proactively assigning chromebooks to students again in case they have to quarantine before the Test to Stay/Shield testing is operational. So here we go again with the potential for remote school for kids.
:facepalm:
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I might be a skeleton before a mod honors my PR request, so questions of legality aside (of which I have many), I will say this:
I hope, at least, that it works. I'm not thrilled about having to return to the office, but I'll feel better if I know that over 75% of my coworkers are vaccinated.
I'm not thrilled about having to keep a child in daycare, but I'll feel better knowing that the staff are mostly all vaccinated and that the parents of the children are, too.
The interesting thing is, I'm against this largely (though if it really is a choice - vaccine or test - then I'm a lot more comfortable with it) but even so, I feel the same way as you. I WOULD feel better if those around me and my kids were vaccinated. I just don't value "my feeling better" as anything that anyone else should be worried about. Or that our policy should address. Or that the law should be subordinate to. A lot - too much - of our recent policy seems predicated on that most subjective (and elusive) of standards and we're not better off for it (it's only serving to deepen our divisiveness).
There's a muddy line between "I feel safer" and "I am safer". I was reading this morning, I think it was in Kentucky, all patients currently in ICU with Covid under the age of 50 are not vaccinated. It's clear that communities as a whole are safer if vaccinated (see CT's rates). I don't just feel safer with speed limits on the highway, I am safer, even if some people choose to ignore those limits. That's kind of where I'm at with this.
It's exactly where I am with it. Vaccine mandates won't be to make some people "feel" safer. They will be to make everyone ACTUALLY safer.
Well over 90% of all hospitalizations and deaths due to COVID are among the unvaccinated, and they are literally causing people coming to ERs with other emergency situations to not get treated, or to have massive delays in treatment, leading to worsening conditions or even death in some cases. At this point, it's just ridiculous and selfish, and fuck those people. Because it's not about "my body/my choice", it's bigger than that.
There weren't really any such attitudes during previous vaccine rollouts. People didn't refuse to get the polio vaccine because of "my freedom".
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I wonder the reaction would've been if they just called this Testing Mandates with the option to the get the vaccine if you don't want to do regular testing.
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Because it's not about "my body/my choice", it's bigger than that.
Except it's not bigger than that. CLEARLY it's not bigger than that, or we wouldn't be fighting about it. Hell, I HAVE the vaccine (and will get any boosters I need the minute I can if it makes sense) and it's not bigger than that. I just happened to opt for the "right" decision.
There weren't really any such attitudes during previous vaccine rollouts. People didn't refuse to get the polio vaccine because of "my freedom".
No, but there really weren't a LOT of things back then. There wasn't the bullying and shaming of social media, either. There wasn't the constant bombardment against and dismissal of people's contrasting ideas. There wasn't the sort of "norm" of dismissing anyone you didn't agree with as a "libtard" or a "deplorable". This is only partly about vaccines. This is about the divisiveness and antagonism that has been prevalent for years now. It just happens to have immediate real world consequences, moreso than some of the other issues we've had to deal with.
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My sister-in-law who is anti-vax (her kids don't even have their shots) managed to get COVID the day before going into labor. She got a bad case of bell's palsey with it and now one side of her face is paralyzed but that will probably be temporary. Oh, by the way, she was walking around stores unmasked a week later - so selfish. Because she didn't die from it she's just dug in with her anti-vax and anti-precautions stance.
Oh, and my Uncle is now in the ICU.
He's a staunch anti-vaxxer, and strong Trump supporter who even made an appearance at Jan 6th, but as far as I know wasn't one of the people who crossed barricades (at least, I hope not...).
Really sucks - he was a great guy before the Trump Derangement started to set in and then he became that guy who talks about and interjects politics into every conversation. Seeing his wife go from spouting QAnon stuff in one Facebook post and then her next post being "need prayers now!" was a scenario that I didn't want to believe was actually true when I saw people in the media talking about it weeks ago.
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And there's this: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-hospital-pause-delivering-babies-after-staffers-quit-rather-n1279001
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My sister-in-law who is anti-vax (her kids don't even have their shots) managed to get COVID the day before going into labor. She got a bad case of bell's palsey with it and now one side of her face is paralyzed but that will probably be temporary. Oh, by the way, she was walking around stores unmasked a week later - so selfish. Because she didn't die from it she's just dug in with her anti-vax and anti-precautions stance.
Oh, and my Uncle is now in the ICU.
He's a staunch anti-vaxxer, and strong Trump supporter who even made an appearance at Jan 6th, but as far as I know wasn't one of the people who crossed barricades (at least, I hope not...).
Really sucks - he was a great guy before the Trump Derangement started to set in and then he became that guy who talks about and interjects politics into every conversation. Seeing his wife go from spouting QAnon stuff in one Facebook post and then her next post being "need prayers now!" was a scenario that I didn't want to believe was actually true when I saw people in the media talking about it weeks ago.
Honest question, why do you think that all came about? They didn't just wake up with the crazy.
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Honest question, why do you think that all came about? They didn't just wake up with the crazy.
I've seen it with my and my wife's families. They used to keep everything in check and they're not bad to be around. She had one aunt that went off the deep end with right-wing politics well prior to 2016. I believe for most people, it has to do with Trump - he speaks without a filter and people love him for it. So now, they feel like they have permission to speak without a filter because he does. Everything that they usually keep to themselves now comes pouring out. My wife's sweet, kind, 70 something year old aunt goes on Facebook and writes awful, nasty things about "dems" and people who looted in last year's riots.
He also popularized the evil mainstream media/fake news idea, so everyone who loves him stopped tuning into their standard news sources and dug in deeper with more opinioned and crazier sources. MSM coitizes their hero, so they go where he isn't criticized. When the other party (and media) is so adamantly against one candidate/President, then they dig in even further than that with their love and support.
We've backed away from her side of the family and stopped attending gatherings for several reasons. The constant political conversations is one, and their lack of caring about Covid is another. We had talked to her aunt once and she admitted that they weren't doing much because of covid last year, then you'll see her online complaining about masks and mandates. Well, which is it? Are you posturing online or not? Do we feel comfortable going to a family Christmas party with 20-30 people in a small home when we know where your covid beliefs lie even though we feel like we can't trust you?
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And there's this: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-hospital-pause-delivering-babies-after-staffers-quit-rather-n1279001
That's the story I mentioned a few posts up.
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And there's this: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-hospital-pause-delivering-babies-after-staffers-quit-rather-n1279001
That's the story I mentioned a few posts up.
Something tells me the babies are still coming, they're just not helping lol
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Honest question, why do you think that all came about? They didn't just wake up with the crazy.
I've seen it with my and my wife's families. They used to keep everything in check and they're not bad to be around. She had one aunt that went off the deep end with right-wing politics well prior to 2016. I believe for most people, it has to do with Trump - he speaks without a filter and people love him for it. So now, they feel like they have permission to speak without a filter because he does. Everything that they usually keep to themselves now comes pouring out. My wife's sweet, kind, 70 something year old aunt goes on Facebook and writes awful, nasty things about "dems" and people who looted in last year's riots.
He also popularized the evil mainstream media/fake news idea, so everyone who loves him stopped tuning into their standard news sources and dug in deeper with more opinioned and crazier sources. MSM coitizes their hero, so they go where he isn't criticized. When the other party (and media) is so adamantly against one candidate/President, then they dig in even further than that with their love and support.
We've backed away from her side of the family and stopped attending gatherings for several reasons. The constant political conversations is one, and their lack of caring about Covid is another. We had talked to her aunt once and she admitted that they weren't doing much because of covid last year, then you'll see her online complaining about masks and mandates. Well, which is it? Are you posturing online or not? Do we feel comfortable going to a family Christmas party with 20-30 people in a small home when we know where your covid beliefs lie even though we feel like we can't trust you?
I honestly think it started before Trump. Trump was just the magnifying glass that started the fire. t advent of the internet where people feel safe to say things without repercussions was the start. Now people stay things they wouldn't in the past in public of face to face. Trump allowed it to be ok to say those things in public.
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My sister-in-law who is anti-vax (her kids don't even have their shots) managed to get COVID the day before going into labor. She got a bad case of bell's palsey with it and now one side of her face is paralyzed but that will probably be temporary. Oh, by the way, she was walking around stores unmasked a week later - so selfish. Because she didn't die from it she's just dug in with her anti-vax and anti-precautions stance.
Oh, and my Uncle is now in the ICU.
He's a staunch anti-vaxxer, and strong Trump supporter who even made an appearance at Jan 6th, but as far as I know wasn't one of the people who crossed barricades (at least, I hope not...).
Really sucks - he was a great guy before the Trump Derangement started to set in and then he became that guy who talks about and interjects politics into every conversation. Seeing his wife go from spouting QAnon stuff in one Facebook post and then her next post being "need prayers now!" was a scenario that I didn't want to believe was actually true when I saw people in the media talking about it weeks ago.
First, and foremost. I am so sorry about your Uncle being in the ICU. Hopefully he's a fighter and has that will to fight.
I say this only to help in understanding how in even surviving this illness, people will still hold onto their beliefs.
Have you ever asked your uncle how he feels about death and if he were to die the next day?
Asking this simple question will give you an understanding into how one perceives life. And it will get that person to consider the possibility of dying tomorrow and what the effects of that would be, who else and what else will be effected by your absence on this world. Even at that though, Life is not guaranteed and there are things we term Accidents or Causes of Nature, Acts of God that a person could die from. These perceptions of death can effect a persons decisions regarding the choices they comes across in life.
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Honest question, why do you think that all came about? They didn't just wake up with the crazy.
My best guess is exactly along Grappler's lines: 45.
Yes it may be tired to keep going back to that, and there are certainly other factors... but also, it's hard to fathom just how much poison that man's rhetorical posture brought into the mainstream.
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Honest question, why do you think that all came about? They didn't just wake up with the crazy.
My best guess is exactly along Grappler's lines: 45.
Yes it may be tired to keep going back to that, and there are certainly other factors... but also, it's hard to fathom just how much poison that man's rhetorical posture brought into the mainstream.
He didn't bring anything in. He gave it a LOUD voice and the echo spans far and is lingering.
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Because it's not about "my body/my choice", it's bigger than that.
Except it's not bigger than that. CLEARLY it's not bigger than that, or we wouldn't be fighting about it. Hell, I HAVE the vaccine (and will get any boosters I need the minute I can if it makes sense) and it's not bigger than that. I just happened to opt for the "right" decision.
Yes it is bigger than that. Saying that it's not because of some philosophical stance doesn't change the reality being faced in almost every hospital in the nation right now, especially in the so-called red states, where vaccination levels are lowest.
If they don't want the vaccine, they should have the decency to face the consequences without treatment either, thereby not clogging up the ERs.
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Social media and the web of lies therein, played a huge part.
It's not just Trump though. Remember Multiple D's, including Harris, created doubt by saying they didn't trust the vaccine because of Trump and the rush to get it to market. There is plenty of blame all around.
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Social media and the web of lies therein, played a huge part.
It's not just Trump though. Remember Multiple D's, including Harris, created doubt by saying they didn't trust the vaccine because of Trump and the rush to get it to market. There is plenty of blame all around.
I might be wrong, but I don't think that's what was said. If I recall correctly, they said they would trust a vaccine if the scientists vouched for it, but not if it was JUST Trump touting it.
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I have a very similar situation to Grappler. My wife's Uncle was very much the same. For years he was just the cool Uncle that we would see every so often. A genuinely nice guy. Then Trump hit office. He started talking politics almost all of the time and speaking of Dems in a very hateful way and doing the Facebook rant stuff. Then when Covid it, he was over at my house visiting and brings up the 'hoax'. Mind you, I work for a large hospital system in the Chicago area. This was right in the midst of when I had a lot of my benefits reduced or eliminated due to the stress we were under due to the covid load. I did not take kindly to that and told him exactly how it was affecting us. He briefly shut up but got back to it eventually.
I saw seeds of some of this as far back as the Tea Party movement and that Freedom Caucus or whatever they call themselves. That got my Dad going. Thankfully, he did not resist the Covid vaccine. I think having me in healthcare and the fact that I got it helped.
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I too have a bro-in-law that has gone to the dark side but he must have always been this way for some time. I just think the Trump years allowed the beast to exit. We found out that he has always cheated on his wife but they were the perfect religious couple that the community looked up to. Now he's separated, in love with a crazy right wing talk show host. His mother forbids to come around without a mask and he has infected his son and grandson. Years ago, we would come up for Thanksgiving and it was great family fun and poof - it's over with them.
It's maddening!
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Social media and the web of lies therein, played a huge part.
It's not just Trump though. Remember Multiple D's, including Harris, created doubt by saying they didn't trust the vaccine because of Trump and the rush to get it to market. There is plenty of blame all around.
I remember that - but they reigned her back in line fairly quickly. And that's what failed to happen when Trump brought Pat Buchananism back into the mainstream and mixed it with a little Vince McMahon. Yes, it's the USA, everything is going to be politicized. There was simply no reigning him in, and he sure as hell wasn't going to reign in anyone who moved the ball on his rhetoric further, and the results on the overall conversation speak for themselves.
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Social media and the web of lies therein, played a huge part.
It's not just Trump though. Remember Multiple D's, including Harris, created doubt by saying they didn't trust the vaccine because of Trump and the rush to get it to market. There is plenty of blame all around.
I might be wrong, but I don't think that's what was said. If I recall correctly, they said they would trust a vaccine if the scientists vouched for it, but not if it was JUST Trump touting it.
You're not wrong but she said she would not trust any vaccine before the election. For people who trusted her and were seeking data, this created doubt and she tied it to politics. Now, I'm not a D or an R and I'm not beholden to any party but seeing this for what it is, along with Trump and social media; they all own a part of creating this vaccine mess.
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Social media and the web of lies therein, played a huge part.
It's not just Trump though. Remember Multiple D's, including Harris, created doubt by saying they didn't trust the vaccine because of Trump and the rush to get it to market. There is plenty of blame all around.
I might be wrong, but I don't think that's what was said. If I recall correctly, they said they would trust a vaccine if the scientists vouched for it, but not if it was JUST Trump touting it.
You're not wrong but she said she would not trust any vaccine before the election. For people who trusted her and were seeking data, this created doubt and she tied it to politics. Now, I'm not a D or an R and I'm not beholden to any party but seeing this for what it is, along with Trump and social media; they all own a part of creating this vaccine mess.
I've seen enough posts on social media to know she said it, but it's not full context so I'm not 100% sure how she meant it. But there's clips of dems out there saying they wouldn't take a vaccine under Trump and those being circulated is a not a good look even if the context is a bit different than what the clip suggests. File this under another reason why social media is a cause of disinformation.
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The clips were edited. Harris was hesitant with Trump's distribution plans. But then again, it was during an election where both sides throw out negatives towards each other.
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Honest question, why do you think that all came about? They didn't just wake up with the crazy.
I've seen it with my and my wife's families. They used to keep everything in check and they're not bad to be around. She had one aunt that went off the deep end with right-wing politics well prior to 2016. I believe for most people, it has to do with Trump - he speaks without a filter and people love him for it. So now, they feel like they have permission to speak without a filter because he does. Everything that they usually keep to themselves now comes pouring out. My wife's sweet, kind, 70 something year old aunt goes on Facebook and writes awful, nasty things about "dems" and people who looted in last year's riots.
He also popularized the evil mainstream media/fake news idea, so everyone who loves him stopped tuning into their standard news sources and dug in deeper with more opinioned and crazier sources. MSM coitizes their hero, so they go where he isn't criticized. When the other party (and media) is so adamantly against one candidate/President, then they dig in even further than that with their love and support.
We've backed away from her side of the family and stopped attending gatherings for several reasons. The constant political conversations is one, and their lack of caring about Covid is another. We had talked to her aunt once and she admitted that they weren't doing much because of covid last year, then you'll see her online complaining about masks and mandates. Well, which is it? Are you posturing online or not? Do we feel comfortable going to a family Christmas party with 20-30 people in a small home when we know where your covid beliefs lie even though we feel like we can't trust you?
I think that's the observation, but not the WHY. Trump isn't the first person - even the first politician - to speak with a limited or no filter. So why NOW? Why HIM? Trump's really not that charismatic in the sense of that; he's speaking to SOMETHING in these people and that's what I'm getting to (because feeding that in a healthier way is the way forward to bring us together).
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Because it's not about "my body/my choice", it's bigger than that.
Except it's not bigger than that. CLEARLY it's not bigger than that, or we wouldn't be fighting about it. Hell, I HAVE the vaccine (and will get any boosters I need the minute I can if it makes sense) and it's not bigger than that. I just happened to opt for the "right" decision.
Yes it is bigger than that. Saying that it's not because of some philosophical stance doesn't change the reality being faced in almost every hospital in the nation right now, especially in the so-called red states, where vaccination levels are lowest.
If they don't want the vaccine, they should have the decency to face the consequences without treatment either, thereby not clogging up the ERs.
No, Hef, we shouldn't. That's vindictive, and just punishment. Or, if we all agree that's what we want to do, I vote we expand that. Tell all the smokers "too bad, so sad" and give their beds to someone who was able to tough out the nicotine withdrawal. All the obese people who get sick? "Well, shouldn't have had that second Big Mac, should you?". Or the poor; if you can't allocate your funds to keep up with your healthcare, why not give a bed to someone who prioritized things like we told them?" And from there, the sky's the limit! Let's re-evaluate those people for whom "college wasn't for me", or maybe those for whom "condoms don't feel right!". Not that there shouldn't be consequences for those decisions - smokers pay more; fathers have to pay child support - and I'm not actually personally against all of those things (:)) but we don't typically let people die as a result of their decision-making without some intervention.
This discussion is a fantastic example of my general problem with the argument of "consequences"; how easily the vaunted "consequences" move subtly (or not so subtly) from just the natural result of the decision to a willful act by others in judgement of the decision.
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Honest question, why do you think that all came about? They didn't just wake up with the crazy.
I've seen it with my and my wife's families. They used to keep everything in check and they're not bad to be around. She had one aunt that went off the deep end with right-wing politics well prior to 2016. I believe for most people, it has to do with Trump - he speaks without a filter and people love him for it. So now, they feel like they have permission to speak without a filter because he does. Everything that they usually keep to themselves now comes pouring out. My wife's sweet, kind, 70 something year old aunt goes on Facebook and writes awful, nasty things about "dems" and people who looted in last year's riots.
He also popularized the evil mainstream media/fake news idea, so everyone who loves him stopped tuning into their standard news sources and dug in deeper with more opinioned and crazier sources. MSM coitizes their hero, so they go where he isn't criticized. When the other party (and media) is so adamantly against one candidate/President, then they dig in even further than that with their love and support.
We've backed away from her side of the family and stopped attending gatherings for several reasons. The constant political conversations is one, and their lack of caring about Covid is another. We had talked to her aunt once and she admitted that they weren't doing much because of covid last year, then you'll see her online complaining about masks and mandates. Well, which is it? Are you posturing online or not? Do we feel comfortable going to a family Christmas party with 20-30 people in a small home when we know where your covid beliefs lie even though we feel like we can't trust you?
I honestly think it started before Trump. Trump was just the magnifying glass that started the fire. t advent of the internet where people feel safe to say things without repercussions was the start. Now people stay things they wouldn't in the past in public of face to face. Trump allowed it to be ok to say those things in public.
Of course it did. Add to that the bullying of social media and the solidification of "us versus them" when it's convenient - the identity politics movement is ironically predicated on establishing "us versus them" - and you have the recipe for an entire class of people who are insecure and frustrated from consistently being told their world view is wrong and yet who have no more obligation to "keep quiet" than anyone else.
I don't question the degree to which Trump added fuel to the fire, but I seriously question this narrative that ignores the fact there was a fire to begin with (and the participants in that fire; to blame this only on Republicans is in denial of a whole host of psychological and philosophical concepts, including some of the most basis premises of human existence).
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Because it's not about "my body/my choice", it's bigger than that.
Except it's not bigger than that. CLEARLY it's not bigger than that, or we wouldn't be fighting about it. Hell, I HAVE the vaccine (and will get any boosters I need the minute I can if it makes sense) and it's not bigger than that. I just happened to opt for the "right" decision.
Yes it is bigger than that. Saying that it's not because of some philosophical stance doesn't change the reality being faced in almost every hospital in the nation right now, especially in the so-called red states, where vaccination levels are lowest.
If they don't want the vaccine, they should have the decency to face the consequences without treatment either, thereby not clogging up the ERs.
No, Hef, we shouldn't. That's vindictive, and just punishment. Or, if we all agree that's what we want to do, I vote we expand that. Tell all the smokers "too bad, so sad" and give their beds to someone who was able to tough out the nicotine withdrawal. All the obese people who get sick? "Well, shouldn't have had that second Big Mac, should you?". Or the poor; if you can't allocate your funds to keep up with your healthcare, why not give a bed to someone who prioritized things like we told them?" And from there, the sky's the limit! Let's re-evaluate those people for whom "college wasn't for me", or maybe those for whom "condoms don't feel right!". Not that there shouldn't be consequences for those decisions - smokers pay more; fathers have to pay child support - and I'm not actually personally against all of those things (:)) but we don't typically let people die as a result of their decision-making without some intervention.
This discussion is a fantastic example of my general problem with the argument of "consequences"; how easily the vaunted "consequences" move subtly (or not so subtly) from just the natural result of the decision to a willful act by others in judgement of the decision.
I....ugh....agree...... :angry:...with..... :omg:....Stadler...... :|
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Because it's not about "my body/my choice", it's bigger than that.
Except it's not bigger than that. CLEARLY it's not bigger than that, or we wouldn't be fighting about it. Hell, I HAVE the vaccine (and will get any boosters I need the minute I can if it makes sense) and it's not bigger than that. I just happened to opt for the "right" decision.
Yes it is bigger than that. Saying that it's not because of some philosophical stance doesn't change the reality being faced in almost every hospital in the nation right now, especially in the so-called red states, where vaccination levels are lowest.
If they don't want the vaccine, they should have the decency to face the consequences without treatment either, thereby not clogging up the ERs.
No, Hef, we shouldn't. That's vindictive, and just punishment. Or, if we all agree that's what we want to do, I vote we expand that. Tell all the smokers "too bad, so sad" and give their beds to someone who was able to tough out the nicotine withdrawal. All the obese people who get sick? "Well, shouldn't have had that second Big Mac, should you?". Or the poor; if you can't allocate your funds to keep up with your healthcare, why not give a bed to someone who prioritized things like we told them?" And from there, the sky's the limit! Let's re-evaluate those people for whom "college wasn't for me", or maybe those for whom "condoms don't feel right!". Not that there shouldn't be consequences for those decisions - smokers pay more; fathers have to pay child support - and I'm not actually personally against all of those things (:)) but we don't typically let people die as a result of their decision-making without some intervention.
This discussion is a fantastic example of my general problem with the argument of "consequences"; how easily the vaunted "consequences" move subtly (or not so subtly) from just the natural result of the decision to a willful act by others in judgement of the decision.
I....ugh....agree...... :angry:...with..... :omg:....Stadler...... :|
It feels good, doesn't it? Go with it... Use the force, Luke, you know it to be true. These are not the droids you're looking for!
:) :) :)
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Because it's not about "my body/my choice", it's bigger than that.
Except it's not bigger than that. CLEARLY it's not bigger than that, or we wouldn't be fighting about it. Hell, I HAVE the vaccine (and will get any boosters I need the minute I can if it makes sense) and it's not bigger than that. I just happened to opt for the "right" decision.
Yes it is bigger than that. Saying that it's not because of some philosophical stance doesn't change the reality being faced in almost every hospital in the nation right now, especially in the so-called red states, where vaccination levels are lowest.
If they don't want the vaccine, they should have the decency to face the consequences without treatment either, thereby not clogging up the ERs.
No, Hef, we shouldn't. That's vindictive, and just punishment. Or, if we all agree that's what we want to do, I vote we expand that. Tell all the smokers "too bad, so sad" and give their beds to someone who was able to tough out the nicotine withdrawal. All the obese people who get sick? "Well, shouldn't have had that second Big Mac, should you?". Or the poor; if you can't allocate your funds to keep up with your healthcare, why not give a bed to someone who prioritized things like we told them?" And from there, the sky's the limit! Let's re-evaluate those people for whom "college wasn't for me", or maybe those for whom "condoms don't feel right!". Not that there shouldn't be consequences for those decisions - smokers pay more; fathers have to pay child support - and I'm not actually personally against all of those things (:)) but we don't typically let people die as a result of their decision-making without some intervention.
This discussion is a fantastic example of my general problem with the argument of "consequences"; how easily the vaunted "consequences" move subtly (or not so subtly) from just the natural result of the decision to a willful act by others in judgement of the decision.
I....ugh....agree...... :angry:...with..... :omg:....Stadler...... :|
It feels good, doesn't it? Go with it... Use the force, Luke, you know it to be true. These are not the droids you're looking for!
:) :) :)
I read all of your posts in the voice of the Emperor, and that is NOT what he would say.
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we don't (necessarily) force people to change their body chemistry all the time. Hey, since we're at it, maybe we should make people eat the proper ratio of carbs/protein/fats? Maybe we should force people to take anti-depressants. Sterilization is a fantastic idea; don't want those deplorables to be breeding now, do we? I'm kidding, but see there ARE differences in this, and minimizing those differences does nothing to change minds. It just reinforces the anti-vaxxer's feelings of not being heard.
I think I get what you are saying here but one small point of order. "Force people to change their body chemistry" is kind of a misnomer. I say this because everything we are exposed to changes our body chemistry. Drive in traffic? You are breathing in car exhaust that changes our body chemistry. Use pesticides (organic or synthetic) on crops we then ingest and these can disrupt our body chemistry. Give antibiotics to cows that go into steaks? Microwave or heat up certain plastics? Hell, even use scare tactics in advertising and you guessed it - our body chemistry is changed.
If we are going to run with this analogy, you could make the case that for some people, the fear of being vaccinated changes body chemistry and for some other people the fear of those around them NOT being vaccinated changes body chemistry. Right? I mean, there is a plethora of science devoted to cortisol release in humans that show evidence of being causative for chronic illnesses, like heart disease.
Maybe it is semantics, but I think we need to be careful with this language here. We are "forced" to change our body chemistry all the time. Most of us just don't spend a lot of time thinking about it like that. And maybe these ways of thinking (not directed at you here) are part of the problem with people not understanding how science - specifically the science around vaccines - work.
Harmony, you're post sums up the changes in body chemistry quite well. :tup And it's great that you mentioned the heating up of plastics. Most people I have talked to have never realized this cause a rise in estrogen.
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Because it's not about "my body/my choice", it's bigger than that.
Except it's not bigger than that. CLEARLY it's not bigger than that, or we wouldn't be fighting about it. Hell, I HAVE the vaccine (and will get any boosters I need the minute I can if it makes sense) and it's not bigger than that. I just happened to opt for the "right" decision.
Yes it is bigger than that. Saying that it's not because of some philosophical stance doesn't change the reality being faced in almost every hospital in the nation right now, especially in the so-called red states, where vaccination levels are lowest.
If they don't want the vaccine, they should have the decency to face the consequences without treatment either, thereby not clogging up the ERs.
No, Hef, we shouldn't. That's vindictive, and just punishment. Or, if we all agree that's what we want to do, I vote we expand that. Tell all the smokers "too bad, so sad" and give their beds to someone who was able to tough out the nicotine withdrawal. All the obese people who get sick? "Well, shouldn't have had that second Big Mac, should you?". Or the poor; if you can't allocate your funds to keep up with your healthcare, why not give a bed to someone who prioritized things like we told them?" And from there, the sky's the limit! Let's re-evaluate those people for whom "college wasn't for me", or maybe those for whom "condoms don't feel right!". Not that there shouldn't be consequences for those decisions - smokers pay more; fathers have to pay child support - and I'm not actually personally against all of those things (:)) but we don't typically let people die as a result of their decision-making without some intervention.
This discussion is a fantastic example of my general problem with the argument of "consequences"; how easily the vaunted "consequences" move subtly (or not so subtly) from just the natural result of the decision to a willful act by others in judgement of the decision.
I see this response a lot, especially lately because people are scared that if their spouse or sibling has a car accident or a stroke or a gallstones, their loved one will die because the ICUs are full up of people - the vast majority of people - who have opted not to get vaccinated.
And I don't disagree under normal circumstances. Our healthcare systems do not refuse care to people who are addicts, alcoholics, obese, smokers, or any other group of people who essentially roll the dice with their health and wind up losing that game. But also under normal circumstances, these people do not clog up the ERs and ICUs preventing otherwise healthy people who happen to get into an accident or have gallstones from getting care.
The truth of the matter is that in many hospitals right now, triage decisions ARE being made. And while these protocols may look different from hospital to hospital, one factor taken into account in a typical triage situation is, "Which patient has the best likelihood to survive?" And all things being equal, the one that got vaccinated is probably going to be chosen in that scenario. This is just simple science. Someone who has been fully vaccinated is typically going to have a less severe case, or suffer for shorter periods of time. Not always but in most cases.
But one has to wonder why a person who completely mistrusts science and medicine to the point where they won't get a vaccine to a life-threatening virus would suddenly trust those same scientists and medical providers to save them when they get ill with that same virus. Often times the treatments given in hospitals for this virus are also not FDA approved and are considered "experimental" or "off label" usage. And yet, talk to these folks who are about to be intubated and they will say, "Do whatever it takes to save my life!" Yeah, I wonder why it needs to get to that point when "whatever it takes" meant simply rolling up their sleeve. I don't understand it.
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Because it's not about "my body/my choice", it's bigger than that.
Except it's not bigger than that. CLEARLY it's not bigger than that, or we wouldn't be fighting about it. Hell, I HAVE the vaccine (and will get any boosters I need the minute I can if it makes sense) and it's not bigger than that. I just happened to opt for the "right" decision.
Yes it is bigger than that. Saying that it's not because of some philosophical stance doesn't change the reality being faced in almost every hospital in the nation right now, especially in the so-called red states, where vaccination levels are lowest.
If they don't want the vaccine, they should have the decency to face the consequences without treatment either, thereby not clogging up the ERs.
No, Hef, we shouldn't. That's vindictive, and just punishment. Or, if we all agree that's what we want to do, I vote we expand that. Tell all the smokers "too bad, so sad" and give their beds to someone who was able to tough out the nicotine withdrawal. All the obese people who get sick? "Well, shouldn't have had that second Big Mac, should you?". Or the poor; if you can't allocate your funds to keep up with your healthcare, why not give a bed to someone who prioritized things like we told them?" And from there, the sky's the limit! Let's re-evaluate those people for whom "college wasn't for me", or maybe those for whom "condoms don't feel right!". Not that there shouldn't be consequences for those decisions - smokers pay more; fathers have to pay child support - and I'm not actually personally against all of those things (:)) but we don't typically let people die as a result of their decision-making without some intervention.
This discussion is a fantastic example of my general problem with the argument of "consequences"; how easily the vaunted "consequences" move subtly (or not so subtly) from just the natural result of the decision to a willful act by others in judgement of the decision.
I see this response a lot, especially lately because people are scared that if their spouse or sibling has a car accident or a stroke or a gallstones, their loved one will die because the ICUs are full up of people - the vast majority of people - who have opted not to get vaccinated.
And I don't disagree under normal circumstances. Our healthcare systems do not refuse care to people who are addicts, alcoholics, obese, smokers, or any other group of people who essentially roll the dice with their health and wind up losing that game. But also under normal circumstances, these people do not clog up the ERs and ICUs preventing otherwise healthy people who happen to get into an accident or have gallstones from getting care.
The truth of the matter is that in many hospitals right now, triage decisions ARE being made. And while these protocols may look different from hospital to hospital, one factor taken into account in a typical triage situation is, "Which patient has the best likelihood to survive?" And all things being equal, the one that got vaccinated is probably going to be chosen in that scenario. This is just simple science. Someone who has been fully vaccinated is typically going to have a less severe case, or suffer for shorter periods of time. Not always but in most cases.
But one has to wonder why a person who completely mistrusts science and medicine to the point where they won't get a vaccine to a life-threatening virus would suddenly trust those same scientists and medical providers to save them when they get ill with that same virus. Often times the treatments given in hospitals for this virus are also not FDA approved and are considered "experimental" or "off label" usage. And yet, talk to these folks who are about to be intubated and they will say, "Do whatever it takes to save my life!" Yeah, I wonder why it needs to get to that point when "whatever it takes" meant simply rolling up their sleeve. I don't understand it.
Exactly.
Also, smokers, obese, the poor, and any other group you bring up, aren't clogging up the ERs preventing others from getting care. There is only one group doing that, and it's the group that doesn't trust medicine and science enough to protect them ahead of time, but fall back on medicine and science out of desperation once their bet with stupidity comes up bad.
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we don't (necessarily) force people to change their body chemistry all the time. Hey, since we're at it, maybe we should make people eat the proper ratio of carbs/protein/fats? Maybe we should force people to take anti-depressants. Sterilization is a fantastic idea; don't want those deplorables to be breeding now, do we? I'm kidding, but see there ARE differences in this, and minimizing those differences does nothing to change minds. It just reinforces the anti-vaxxer's feelings of not being heard.
I think I get what you are saying here but one small point of order. "Force people to change their body chemistry" is kind of a misnomer. I say this because everything we are exposed to changes our body chemistry. Drive in traffic? You are breathing in car exhaust that changes our body chemistry. Use pesticides (organic or synthetic) on crops we then ingest and these can disrupt our body chemistry. Give antibiotics to cows that go into steaks? Microwave or heat up certain plastics? Hell, even use scare tactics in advertising and you guessed it - our body chemistry is changed.
If we are going to run with this analogy, you could make the case that for some people, the fear of being vaccinated changes body chemistry and for some other people the fear of those around them NOT being vaccinated changes body chemistry. Right? I mean, there is a plethora of science devoted to cortisol release in humans that show evidence of being causative for chronic illnesses, like heart disease.
Maybe it is semantics, but I think we need to be careful with this language here. We are "forced" to change our body chemistry all the time. Most of us just don't spend a lot of time thinking about it like that. And maybe these ways of thinking (not directed at you here) are part of the problem with people not understanding how science - specifically the science around vaccines - work.
Harmony, you're post sums up the changes in body chemistry quite well. :tup And it's great that you mentioned the heating up of plastics. Most people I have talked to have never realized this cause a rise in estrogen.
I missed Harmony's post before (I think). I don't argue with her; I'm fine with being careful with the language; I wouldn't have it any other way.
But in doing so, there is a difference: if government REQUIRES me to get a vaccine, there is no quotes around "force". It IS force. It's one person/group putting a requirement in place that some other person/group doesn't agree with. Posters here have equated that with getting a driver's license, or something similar, and I wanted to point out that there IS a difference - practically, legally, morally - with putting a requirement in place that is wholly external versus one that isn't. Harmony, you made an impassioned post a week or so ago in the abortion thread, and I think that ethos applies here. You will fight TOOTH AND NAIL - not a direct quote, but I think you might agree that was the spirit - to preserve your right for bodily autonomy, to not let "some old white male" tell you what you can and can't do with your body (quotes are mine to delineate a stereotype). The concept is the same here. Like the environmental in nature examples you gave, women aren't TOTALLY in control of their body; I know my ex-wife didn't WANT to have that miscarriage, but it happened nonetheless. Control is relative, and it is contextual. It might have been due to any number of things, including her diet, the stress at work, the stress in our marriage... does her employer owe her a duty of no stress in order to maximize her chances of a successful pregnancy? At some point the metaphysical overwhelms the conversation: me being "forced" to breath smog, well, that like saying I'm "forced" to eat three times a day, or void my waste. They're not really the same thing. And the fact is, someone not getting the vaccine is in THAT category, not the "proximate cause" category.
I think at the end of the day, the real fundamental point here is that this boils down to imposing ONE PERSON'S thought process, value system, and prioritization on ANOTHER PERSON against their will. And it's just a fact that despite all the arguments to the contrary, I have no requirement - legally, morally, practically - that I be rational in my thinking, nor that I not be hypocritical. I can still believe that stepping on a crack breaks my mother's back. Except in certain cases, I have NO duty to act rationally or non-hypocritically even if YOU (a random individual, no one here) is harmed. I can't harm you with intent; I don't know of anyone that is refusing the vaccine in order to purposefully infect as many people as they can. But if I am on the sidewalk in New York City and I come across two people dying of a heart attack, I can choose to help one, both or neither equally. Absent some specific fact (fireman, doctor, police) I have zero duty to stop and help you. I can even step over the heart attack victim - not rendering help - and hold the door - helping! - a beautiful woman carry her bags in her building. Rational? Probably not. Hypocritical? Almost certainly. I can help that heart attack victim today and choose not to tomorrow. I can help the first 100 heart attack victims I come across, and not help the 101st even though "that's what I've done in the past". I can stand over that heart attack victim and alternately donate money to the American Heart Association, or put in an online order for a Number Two meal, supersized, at the Mickey D's in Times Square.
I'm not saying that the vaccine requirement wouldn't be ultimately good for society; I'm saying though that it's a multi-variable equation, and you - collective - don't get to unilaterally decide for me what variables count (and how much) without at least some discussion. I'm not asking you to change your mind, I'm asking you to account for the fact that it's not enough just that YOU think it. You have to allow - as we allow for so many other things in this world in the name of "tolerance" - that others might think differently for reasons you don't have to understand.
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Just for the record, I'm not in favor of holding anybody down to give them a vaccine.
I don't think a mandate where the other option is to test weekly is 'forcing' anyone to get a vaccine.
I think employers have a responsibility to set the standards for their work force which keep employees safe and adhere to OSHA guidelines and standards.
I don't think having any job is a "right" that people are granted.
So all of that said, there is no "body autonomy" issue IMO here. I'm all in favor of people opting to exercise their body autonomy with regard to vaccines.
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I agree that a test is fine, but I don't like the cost being put on employees. That burden should fall to the employers (who should then be enabled to give uncooperative employees the axe).
The only other thing I would like is to see the hard criteria on when it ends. And that's my biggest critique of the newest guidance, as I see it. There's no clarity or solid footing around when the measures (even the currently existing ones) become active and when they become unnecessary. That's not to say that data isn't driving the decision making; but if it is, I'm just not seeing the where and how.
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I see this response a lot, especially lately because people are scared that if their spouse or sibling has a car accident or a stroke or a gallstones, their loved one will die because the ICUs are full up of people - the vast majority of people - who have opted not to get vaccinated.
And I don't disagree under normal circumstances. Our healthcare systems do not refuse care to people who are addicts, alcoholics, obese, smokers, or any other group of people who essentially roll the dice with their health and wind up losing that game. But also under normal circumstances, these people do not clog up the ERs and ICUs preventing otherwise healthy people who happen to get into an accident or have gallstones from getting care.
The truth of the matter is that in many hospitals right now, triage decisions ARE being made. And while these protocols may look different from hospital to hospital, one factor taken into account in a typical triage situation is, "Which patient has the best likelihood to survive?" And all things being equal, the one that got vaccinated is probably going to be chosen in that scenario. This is just simple science. Someone who has been fully vaccinated is typically going to have a less severe case, or suffer for shorter periods of time. Not always but in most cases.
I can vouch this is a true story and not just me "whatabouting" you, since I talked with someone who posts here about it back when it happened. My mom has high blood pressure, kidney issues, a heart valve issue, and has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's dementia. She was having a little trouble catching her breath about two weeks ago, and my dad took her BP, which was high. He called EMS. They came, they checked her out and while all was not perfect, it was manageable. My dad asked if she would be taken in and the lead EMT said "not for this. The ER is full of COVID patients, and anything you experience here is less than if you caught COVID from the hospital. Stay here, monitor her, and call your general in the morning".
My mom's care was materially compromised by the run on hospital services due to COVID. I love my mom dearly, and - thankfully before her decline - I've told her that I wouldn't be the man I am today without her. She has informed my entire life with her strength, grace, humility and dedication. To me, though, her not going to the ER because of "COVID" isn't a blame game, and because her care could be fractionally better doesn't allow me to FORCE someone to make different choices in their lives on the off-chance there's some remote causal or statistical effect.
But one has to wonder why a person who completely mistrusts science and medicine to the point where they won't get a vaccine to a life-threatening virus would suddenly trust those same scientists and medical providers to save them when they get ill with that same virus. Often times the treatments given in hospitals for this virus are also not FDA approved and are considered "experimental" or "off label" usage. And yet, talk to these folks who are about to be intubated and they will say, "Do whatever it takes to save my life!" Yeah, I wonder why it needs to get to that point when "whatever it takes" meant simply rolling up their sleeve. I don't understand it.
Why does someone who works out, smoke? Why did Eddie Van Halen trust the doctors who wanted to treat his cancer, but not believe them when they told him it was 40 years of smoking that did it and not the "brass picks" he "put in his mouth" while playing hammer-ons? (Google it, it's true). Why did the lady in Dave Ropeik's book "How Risky Is It Anyway?" (a book I've cited at least 25 times here) fight her town administration to remediate trace levels of TCE in the air (at well below levels thought to harm; TCE is a known carcinogen) when all science said the risk was negligible if non-existent, and yet smoke enough cigarettes per day to increase her chances of getting cancer by orders of magnitude? Why does someone with substance abuse problems have to hit ROCK BOTTOM before getting help (that's not hypocritical, but it does show something about perspective). I don't understand any of those things, either, and yet I have zero doubt that every single one of us does at least one thing regularly that is both hypocritical and that harms - directly or indirectly - someone else.
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I agree that a test is fine, but I don't like the cost being put on employees. That burden should fall to the employers (who should then be enabled to give uncooperative employees the axe).
The only other thing I would like is to see the hard criteria on when it ends. And that's my biggest critique of the newest guidance, as I see it. There's no clarity or solid footing around when the measures (even the currently existing ones) become active and when they become unnecessary. That's not to say that data isn't driving the decision making; but if it is, I'm just not seeing the where and how.
I think it will be tied to the numbers of cases and hospitalizations. I don't know how this will be done on a federal level so I could be wrong. It makes sense that local numbers would drive the need for testing. But if positive tests and hospitalizations are down in NY and up in Chicago, I don't know how that will be used to make "hard criteria on when it ends" because we as a society tend to move around a lot.
Good question. If I were a betting woman, I'd say they don't have any idea or formal plan in place. :P
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I see this response a lot, especially lately because people are scared that if their spouse or sibling has a car accident or a stroke or a gallstones, their loved one will die because the ICUs are full up of people - the vast majority of people - who have opted not to get vaccinated.
And I don't disagree under normal circumstances. Our healthcare systems do not refuse care to people who are addicts, alcoholics, obese, smokers, or any other group of people who essentially roll the dice with their health and wind up losing that game. But also under normal circumstances, these people do not clog up the ERs and ICUs preventing otherwise healthy people who happen to get into an accident or have gallstones from getting care.
The truth of the matter is that in many hospitals right now, triage decisions ARE being made. And while these protocols may look different from hospital to hospital, one factor taken into account in a typical triage situation is, "Which patient has the best likelihood to survive?" And all things being equal, the one that got vaccinated is probably going to be chosen in that scenario. This is just simple science. Someone who has been fully vaccinated is typically going to have a less severe case, or suffer for shorter periods of time. Not always but in most cases.
I can vouch this is a true story and not just me "whatabouting" you, since I talked with someone who posts here about it back when it happened. My mom has high blood pressure, kidney issues, a heart valve issue, and has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's dementia. She was having a little trouble catching her breath about two weeks ago, and my dad took her BP, which was high. He called EMS. They came, they checked her out and while all was not perfect, it was manageable. My dad asked if she would be taken in and the lead EMT said "not for this. The ER is full of COVID patients, and anything you experience here is less than if you caught COVID from the hospital. Stay here, monitor her, and call your general in the morning".
My mom's care was materially compromised by the run on hospital services due to COVID. I love my mom dearly, and - thankfully before her decline - I've told her that I wouldn't be the man I am today without her. She has informed my entire life with her strength, grace, humility and dedication. To me, though, her not going to the ER because of "COVID" isn't a blame game, and because her care could be fractionally better doesn't allow me to FORCE someone to make different choices in their lives on the off-chance there's some remote causal or statistical effect.
But one has to wonder why a person who completely mistrusts science and medicine to the point where they won't get a vaccine to a life-threatening virus would suddenly trust those same scientists and medical providers to save them when they get ill with that same virus. Often times the treatments given in hospitals for this virus are also not FDA approved and are considered "experimental" or "off label" usage. And yet, talk to these folks who are about to be intubated and they will say, "Do whatever it takes to save my life!" Yeah, I wonder why it needs to get to that point when "whatever it takes" meant simply rolling up their sleeve. I don't understand it.
Why does someone who works out, smoke? Why did Eddie Van Halen trust the doctors who wanted to treat his cancer, but not believe them when they told him it was 40 years of smoking that did it and not the "brass picks" he "put in his mouth" while playing hammer-ons? (Google it, it's true). Why did the lady in Dave Ropeik's book "How Risky Is It Anyway?" (a book I've cited at least 25 times here) fight her town administration to remediate trace levels of TCE in the air (at well below levels thought to harm; TCE is a known carcinogen) when all science said the risk was negligible if non-existent, and yet smoke enough cigarettes per day to increase her chances of getting cancer by orders of magnitude? Why does someone with substance abuse problems have to hit ROCK BOTTOM before getting help (that's not hypocritical, but it does show something about perspective). I don't understand any of those things, either, and yet I have zero doubt that every single one of us does at least one thing regularly that is both hypocritical and that harms - directly or indirectly - someone else.
Sorry to hear about your mom. And frankly, it was probably safer for her not to go to the ER because her risk of contracting Covid while there would've been possible of course. I had a similar (but different) situation recently when a family member wiped out on a bike. Parent opted NOT to go to urgent care or ER as nothing was broken, but under normal circumstances would have definitely done so to get her son treated and checked out.
It is unfortunate that these types of choices are having to be forced on people because of what is currently the situation in our hospital ERs and ICUs but here we are. You can bet the conversation would look a whole lot different right now if the ERs and ICUs were full up of opiate addicts to the point that other people could not find a bed after their long awaited colon cancer surgery. As you say, not to "whatabout" you but just acknowledging the seemingly fickle responses we all are seeing from many people on these issues today.
As for the hypocrisy with regard to choices we all make/do daily, I don't doubt that at all. But again, I ask you, what of all of those choices cause ERs and ICUs to fill up completely? Aside from the point that any death is tragic no matter what - when we get to a place where we are right now and a specific choice is causing a nearly complete collapse of our emergency healthcare system, how does that stack up against EVH choosing to smoke and ultimately dying of his choice?
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Just for the record, I'm not in favor of holding anybody down to give them a vaccine.
I don't think a mandate where the other option is to test weekly is 'forcing' anyone to get a vaccine.
In case anyone cares, I agree with you on this (I think - I hope - I've written that before). If there's a choice, most of my arguments go away.
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I can vouch this is a true story and not just me "whatabouting" you, since I talked with someone who posts here about it back when it happened. My mom has high blood pressure, kidney issues, a heart valve issue, and has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's dementia. She was having a little trouble catching her breath about two weeks ago, and my dad took her BP, which was high. He called EMS. They came, they checked her out and while all was not perfect, it was manageable. My dad asked if she would be taken in and the lead EMT said "not for this. The ER is full of COVID patients, and anything you experience here is less than if you caught COVID from the hospital. Stay here, monitor her, and call your general in the morning".
My mom's care was materially compromised by the run on hospital services due to COVID. I love my mom dearly, and - thankfully before her decline - I've told her that I wouldn't be the man I am today without her. She has informed my entire life with her strength, grace, humility and dedication. To me, though, her not going to the ER because of "COVID" isn't a blame game, and because her care could be fractionally better doesn't allow me to FORCE someone to make different choices in their lives on the off-chance there's some remote causal or statistical effect.
But one has to wonder why a person who completely mistrusts science and medicine to the point where they won't get a vaccine to a life-threatening virus would suddenly trust those same scientists and medical providers to save them when they get ill with that same virus. Often times the treatments given in hospitals for this virus are also not FDA approved and are considered "experimental" or "off label" usage. And yet, talk to these folks who are about to be intubated and they will say, "Do whatever it takes to save my life!" Yeah, I wonder why it needs to get to that point when "whatever it takes" meant simply rolling up their sleeve. I don't understand it.
Why does someone who works out, smoke? Why did Eddie Van Halen trust the doctors who wanted to treat his cancer, but not believe them when they told him it was 40 years of smoking that did it and not the "brass picks" he "put in his mouth" while playing hammer-ons? (Google it, it's true). Why did the lady in Dave Ropeik's book "How Risky Is It Anyway?" (a book I've cited at least 25 times here) fight her town administration to remediate trace levels of TCE in the air (at well below levels thought to harm; TCE is a known carcinogen) when all science said the risk was negligible if non-existent, and yet smoke enough cigarettes per day to increase her chances of getting cancer by orders of magnitude? Why does someone with substance abuse problems have to hit ROCK BOTTOM before getting help (that's not hypocritical, but it does show something about perspective). I don't understand any of those things, either, and yet I have zero doubt that every single one of us does at least one thing regularly that is both hypocritical and that harms - directly or indirectly - someone else.
Sorry to hear about your mom. And frankly, it was probably safer for her not to go to the ER because her risk of contracting Covid while there would've been possible of course. I had a similar (but different) situation recently when a family member wiped out on a bike. Parent opted NOT to go to urgent care or ER as nothing was broken, but under normal circumstances would have definitely done so to get her son treated and checked out.
It is unfortunate that these types of choices are having to be forced on people because of what is currently the situation in our hospital ERs and ICUs but here we are. You can bet the conversation would look a whole lot different right now if the ERs and ICUs were full up of opiate addicts to the point that other people could not find a bed after their long awaited colon cancer surgery. As you say, not to "whatabout" you but just acknowledging the seemingly fickle responses we all are seeing from many people on these issues today.
As for the hypocrisy with regard to choices we all make/do daily, I don't doubt that at all. But again, I ask you, what of all of those choices cause ERs and ICUs to fill up completely? Aside from the point that any death is tragic no matter what - when we get to a place where we are right now and a specific choice is causing a nearly complete collapse of our emergency healthcare system, how does that stack up against EVH choosing to smoke and ultimately dying of his choice?
Thank you for the kind words; it's appreciated. It's obviously stressful and frustrating on a personal level.
I don't have a solid answer for you on the last paragraph. It's a cop-out, but the best answer I have is "it is what it is". I'm not sure I single out that "cause and effect" like some (maybe you, I won't assume) do. I struggle with the difference between selecting care choices because of COVID beds and say, because of municipal cutbacks that take ambulances out of circulation, or that raise prices on care because of the burden on the system of 42% of Americans being obese, or because I feel like I'm young enough and fit enough that I don't need no stinkin' healthcare. I'm really not trying to be flip, but I'm really struggling with what to me boils down to ostracizing a group based on their collective choices, when so much of the details, including the harm, is subjective and individual, or even statistical. My parents are in Florida, the fifth oldest state in the Union. That bed may or may not be taken by an unvaccinated person, and either way, that person may or may not be there regardless of vaccine status. I know the ODDS favor one outcome over the other, but we don't typically rely on "odds" for adjudicating fundamental rights. It's a similar problem with guns; one of the flaws in many proposed gun control measures is that they encompass something like 75 million people when harm is not always specific (targeted) and implemented by 1000's or even 100's of the larger group.
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I agree that a test is fine, but I don't like the cost being put on employees. That burden should fall to the employers (who should then be enabled to give uncooperative employees the axe).
The only other thing I would like is to see the hard criteria on when it ends. And that's my biggest critique of the newest guidance, as I see it. There's no clarity or solid footing around when the measures (even the currently existing ones) become active and when they become unnecessary. That's not to say that data isn't driving the decision making; but if it is, I'm just not seeing the where and how.
Do you know how much that would cost...And these businesses don't want to lose people that are good at what they do. It's not as easy for the smaller businesses. The issue is dividing the line for the smaller business while leveling up the big businesses as they have no problem paying for these tests, and can afford to lose several workers.
This has left them with a dilemma to deal with now...Layoff workers and have to go out and search for replacements? Cut down in size, to be below the 100 employee threshold?
These smaller businesses do not like this mandate because it's causing more unnecessary stress for the companies that are barely making it through Covid-19 as it is.
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Navy football coach was just fired for refusing the vaccine on religious grounds.
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Just for the record, I'm not in favor of holding anybody down to give them a vaccine.
I don't think a mandate where the other option is to test weekly is 'forcing' anyone to get a vaccine.
In case anyone cares, I agree with you on this (I think - I hope - I've written that before). If there's a choice, most of my arguments go away.
I am the same exact way...
If these tests are fine with working to go see a doctor. Then I do agree. I feel these tests are all that required to determine whether someone actually does pose any sort of threat to anyone's health. How is one a risk if they test negative? How is one a greater threat before and after taking a test, when you could very well catch it once you walk out that door from taking the test? And you wouldn't know anything at all about that person regardless if they took a test or not when you walk out that door of your house.
If one is worried about their own health, they should get the vaccine. That protects only you from getting an illness, which is why those that are more at odds of dying from the disease are first priority. These people should get any vaccine.
The hospital situation is more of a moral issue. And one thing that I wonder about is how weren't these hospitals funded more, by getting more additions to rooms, more beds, more technology easy accessible. Why isn't more money spent on the hospitals to be prepared for any future variant strains that may possibly be stronger than the vaccines available. Why weren't the hospitals better prepared, after the year of the influx of patients. That should've been a lesson the Healthcare System should've learned and focused on making better.
It's not just the people's fault.
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I wonder what constitutes a legitimate religious exemption? I doubt "Cuz my religion" is enough. I'm not exactly sure how many religions would be against a vaccine on religious grounds. I know some would, for sure, but how many?
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The hospital situation is more of a moral issue. And one thing that I wonder about is how weren't these hospitals funded more, by getting more additions to rooms, more beds, more technology easy accessible. Why isn't more money spent on the hospitals to be prepared for any future variant strains that may possibly be stronger than the vaccines available. Why weren't the hospitals better prepared, after the year of the influx of patients. That should've been a lesson the Healthcare System should've learned and focused on making better.
As explained recently by my governor, "ICU Bed Availability" does not always refer to the physical number of beds being used or are available.
It is a number that is also based on how well the department is staffed. If they do not have enough doctors or nurses available on any given day, then the ICU bed availability goes down. Doctors and nurses are human as well - they have vacation time or they can get sick and miss days of work. Hospitals won't stuff an ICU full of patients and not have enough people on hand to care for them.
Illinois was able to send additional staff to hospitals that were burdened with staffing issues and low numbers of ICU beds to help alleviate some of those low percentages a few weeks ago.
I would say that hospitals are fully prepared, after a year and a half of covid. It's stubborn people that are clogging them up. Luckily, the two family members of mine that had to go to the ER weren't rejected from their non-covid care.
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I've read interviews from a number doctors who have all said some variation of "I don't need anymore beds. I need staff". There was a doctor on NPR last night who was saying he has a number of floors with patients that are supposed to get checked by a nurse every 30 minutes. They're seeing 3-4 hour gaps on a regular basis. That's nuts.
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I've read interviews from a number doctors who have all said some variation of "I don't need anymore beds. I need staff". There was a doctor on NPR last night who was saying he has a number of floors with patients that are supposed to get checked by a nurse every 30 minutes. They're seeing 3-4 hour gaps on a regular basis. That's nuts.
And related to this, here is my question for the legal knowledgable among us here. If my loved one dies because they didn't get that 30 minute check and it can be proven via medical records that this "negligence" (not blaming the staff but it is what it is) caused my loved one to die without standard medical care, then do I have a right to sue the hospital for inadequate staffing? Or malpractice?
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I wonder what constitutes a legitimate religious exemption? I doubt "Cuz my religion" is enough. I'm not exactly sure how many religions would be against a vaccine on religious grounds. I know some would, for sure, but how many?
The traditional religious exemption used is because of the fetal tissue line that's used in other vaccine's developments comes from an aborted fetus donated to science (I think). Now, the mRNA shots don't use any of this tech, and are free from being utilized in these exemptions, to the point where even Pope Frances stated that "getting vaccinated is an act of love"...
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I agree that a test is fine, but I don't like the cost being put on employees. That burden should fall to the employers (who should then be enabled to give uncooperative employees the axe).
The only other thing I would like is to see the hard criteria on when it ends. And that's my biggest critique of the newest guidance, as I see it. There's no clarity or solid footing around when the measures (even the currently existing ones) become active and when they become unnecessary. That's not to say that data isn't driving the decision making; but if it is, I'm just not seeing the where and how.
Do you know how much that would cost...And these businesses don't want to lose people that are good at what they do. It's not as easy for the smaller businesses. The issue is dividing the line for the smaller business while leveling up the big businesses as they have no problem paying for these tests, and can afford to lose several workers.
This has left them with a dilemma to deal with now...Layoff workers and have to go out and search for replacements? Cut down in size, to be below the 100 employee threshold?
These smaller businesses do not like this mandate because it's causing more unnecessary stress for the companies that are barely making it through Covid-19 as it is.
And timing is important here; if it falls to the employer, I can see it ultimately, maybe through one or two iterations of healthcare procurement, being rolled through the healthcare insurance program back to the employee.
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I wonder what constitutes a legitimate religious exemption? I doubt "Cuz my religion" is enough. I'm not exactly sure how many religions would be against a vaccine on religious grounds. I know some would, for sure, but how many?
I think it's a problematic question. This is a good article on that (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/religious-exemption-covid-vaccine-mandate/).
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The hospital situation is more of a moral issue. And one thing that I wonder about is how weren't these hospitals funded more, by getting more additions to rooms, more beds, more technology easy accessible. Why isn't more money spent on the hospitals to be prepared for any future variant strains that may possibly be stronger than the vaccines available. Why weren't the hospitals better prepared, after the year of the influx of patients. That should've been a lesson the Healthcare System should've learned and focused on making better.
As explained recently by my governor, "ICU Bed Availability" does not always refer to the physical number of beds being used or are available.
It is a number that is also based on how well the department is staffed. If they do not have enough doctors or nurses available on any given day, then the ICU bed availability goes down. Doctors and nurses are human as well - they have vacation time or they can get sick and miss days of work. Hospitals won't stuff an ICU full of patients and not have enough people on hand to care for them.
Illinois was able to send additional staff to hospitals that were burdened with staffing issues and low numbers of ICU beds to help alleviate some of those low percentages a few weeks ago.
I would say that hospitals are fully prepared, after a year and a half of covid. It's stubborn people that are clogging them up. Luckily, the two family members of mine that had to go to the ER weren't rejected from their non-covid care.
So, if you collate the various points of view here, we potentially have a situation where the lack of a vaccine moves one variable (the patients) and the presence of a vaccine mandate moves another (the healthcare staff). Those seem to at least potentially be contra-indicated.
As I've been saying, this is a complicated, multi-variable issue.
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I've read interviews from a number doctors who have all said some variation of "I don't need anymore beds. I need staff". There was a doctor on NPR last night who was saying he has a number of floors with patients that are supposed to get checked by a nurse every 30 minutes. They're seeing 3-4 hour gaps on a regular basis. That's nuts.
And related to this, here is my question for the legal knowledgable among us here. If my loved one dies because they didn't get that 30 minute check and it can be proven via medical records that this "negligence" (not blaming the staff but it is what it is) caused my loved one to die without standard medical care, then do I have a right to sue the hospital for inadequate staffing? Or malpractice?
With the proviso that you can sue anyone virtually at any time and for virtually any reason, sure. I don't say that to be snarky, I say that to be practical: absent some specific sovereign immunity component, you have the burden of proof. Malpractice is, to my knowledge, essentially negligence. So, if you can show that they had a duty to provide a certain level of care, and they didn't, and that lack of care proximately (directly) caused her death, then you like are entitled to some remuneration for your loss. Not being a medical professional, I imagine this is a very fact-specific environment. Can you show that her death was attributable to the intervening two-and-a-half-hour gap? I can't answer that.
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I agree that a test is fine, but I don't like the cost being put on employees. That burden should fall to the employers (who should then be enabled to give uncooperative employees the axe).
The only other thing I would like is to see the hard criteria on when it ends. And that's my biggest critique of the newest guidance, as I see it. There's no clarity or solid footing around when the measures (even the currently existing ones) become active and when they become unnecessary. That's not to say that data isn't driving the decision making; but if it is, I'm just not seeing the where and how.
Do you know how much that would cost...And these businesses don't want to lose people that are good at what they do. It's not as easy for the smaller businesses. The issue is dividing the line for the smaller business while leveling up the big businesses as they have no problem paying for these tests, and can afford to lose several workers.
This has left them with a dilemma to deal with now...Layoff workers and have to go out and search for replacements? Cut down in size, to be below the 100 employee threshold?
These smaller businesses do not like this mandate because it's causing more unnecessary stress for the companies that are barely making it through Covid-19 as it is.
I don't know how much it would cost, but I also don't really care.
The employee should not have to pay just as they should not have to pay for any other mandatory testing or PPE.
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I agree that a test is fine, but I don't like the cost being put on employees. That burden should fall to the employers (who should then be enabled to give uncooperative employees the axe).
The only other thing I would like is to see the hard criteria on when it ends. And that's my biggest critique of the newest guidance, as I see it. There's no clarity or solid footing around when the measures (even the currently existing ones) become active and when they become unnecessary. That's not to say that data isn't driving the decision making; but if it is, I'm just not seeing the where and how.
Do you know how much that would cost...And these businesses don't want to lose people that are good at what they do. It's not as easy for the smaller businesses. The issue is dividing the line for the smaller business while leveling up the big businesses as they have no problem paying for these tests, and can afford to lose several workers.
This has left them with a dilemma to deal with now...Layoff workers and have to go out and search for replacements? Cut down in size, to be below the 100 employee threshold?
These smaller businesses do not like this mandate because it's causing more unnecessary stress for the companies that are barely making it through Covid-19 as it is.
I don't know how much it would cost, but I also don't really care.
The employee should not have to pay just as they should not have to pay for any other mandatory testing or PPE.
I don't know. If the only reason they are having to be tested is because they are refusing a no-cost vaccine, I would be fine with passing that cost on to the employee.
If all employees are vaccinated, then tests wouldn't be necessary for the employer.
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I agree that a test is fine, but I don't like the cost being put on employees. That burden should fall to the employers (who should then be enabled to give uncooperative employees the axe).
The only other thing I would like is to see the hard criteria on when it ends. And that's my biggest critique of the newest guidance, as I see it. There's no clarity or solid footing around when the measures (even the currently existing ones) become active and when they become unnecessary. That's not to say that data isn't driving the decision making; but if it is, I'm just not seeing the where and how.
Do you know how much that would cost...And these businesses don't want to lose people that are good at what they do. It's not as easy for the smaller businesses. The issue is dividing the line for the smaller business while leveling up the big businesses as they have no problem paying for these tests, and can afford to lose several workers.
This has left them with a dilemma to deal with now...Layoff workers and have to go out and search for replacements? Cut down in size, to be below the 100 employee threshold?
These smaller businesses do not like this mandate because it's causing more unnecessary stress for the companies that are barely making it through Covid-19 as it is.
I don't know how much it would cost, but I also don't really care.
The employee should not have to pay just as they should not have to pay for any other mandatory testing or PPE.
I don't know. If the only reason they are having to be tested is because they are refusing a no-cost vaccine, I would be fine with passing that cost on to the employee.
If all employees are vaccinated, then tests wouldn't be necessary for the employer.
Well, no, what about breakthrough cases?
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I agree that a test is fine, but I don't like the cost being put on employees. That burden should fall to the employers (who should then be enabled to give uncooperative employees the axe).
The only other thing I would like is to see the hard criteria on when it ends. And that's my biggest critique of the newest guidance, as I see it. There's no clarity or solid footing around when the measures (even the currently existing ones) become active and when they become unnecessary. That's not to say that data isn't driving the decision making; but if it is, I'm just not seeing the where and how.
Do you know how much that would cost...And these businesses don't want to lose people that are good at what they do. It's not as easy for the smaller businesses. The issue is dividing the line for the smaller business while leveling up the big businesses as they have no problem paying for these tests, and can afford to lose several workers.
This has left them with a dilemma to deal with now...Layoff workers and have to go out and search for replacements? Cut down in size, to be below the 100 employee threshold?
These smaller businesses do not like this mandate because it's causing more unnecessary stress for the companies that are barely making it through Covid-19 as it is.
I don't know how much it would cost, but I also don't really care.
The employee should not have to pay just as they should not have to pay for any other mandatory testing or PPE.
I don't know. If the only reason they are having to be tested is because they are refusing a no-cost vaccine, I would be fine with passing that cost on to the employee.
If all employees are vaccinated, then tests wouldn't be necessary for the employer.
Well, no, what about breakthrough cases?
What about them? I mean, they are fairly rare, throw them in too if you want, but the rule as I understand it is regular testing if you refuse the vaccine. Those are the two options on the table.
I would imagine that if you get vaccinated and still come down with COVID, you would just need a negative test before coming back to work. If your employer doesn't charge you for such a test, you would probably still be paying your provider or a pharmacy for the test, so it makes no difference. Either way, one test for a breakthrough case is different than paying for multiple tests a week for an asshole employee who refuses the free vaccine.
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I agree that a test is fine, but I don't like the cost being put on employees. That burden should fall to the employers (who should then be enabled to give uncooperative employees the axe).
The only other thing I would like is to see the hard criteria on when it ends. And that's my biggest critique of the newest guidance, as I see it. There's no clarity or solid footing around when the measures (even the currently existing ones) become active and when they become unnecessary. That's not to say that data isn't driving the decision making; but if it is, I'm just not seeing the where and how.
Do you know how much that would cost...And these businesses don't want to lose people that are good at what they do. It's not as easy for the smaller businesses. The issue is dividing the line for the smaller business while leveling up the big businesses as they have no problem paying for these tests, and can afford to lose several workers.
This has left them with a dilemma to deal with now...Layoff workers and have to go out and search for replacements? Cut down in size, to be below the 100 employee threshold?
These smaller businesses do not like this mandate because it's causing more unnecessary stress for the companies that are barely making it through Covid-19 as it is.
I don't know how much it would cost, but I also don't really care.
The employee should not have to pay just as they should not have to pay for any other mandatory testing or PPE.
I don't know. If the only reason they are having to be tested is because they are refusing a no-cost vaccine, I would be fine with passing that cost on to the employee.
If all employees are vaccinated, then tests wouldn't be necessary for the employer.
Well, no, what about breakthrough cases?
What about them? I mean, they are fairly rare, throw them in too if you want, but the rule as I understand it is regular testing if you refuse the vaccine. Those are the two options on the table.
I would imagine that if you get vaccinated and still come down with COVID, you would just need a negative test before coming back to work. If your employer doesn't charge you for such a test, you would probably still be paying your provider or a pharmacy for the test, so it makes no difference. Either way, one test for a breakthrough case is different than paying for multiple tests a week for an asshole employee who refuses the free vaccine.
You can still be vaccinated and test positive and therefore still able to transmit that virus.
See, this is the effect that this mandate is making people have to deal with now. The businesses were fine, people do not have to visit these businesses. But since people are so entitled to everything, businesses suffer because of that customer entitlement of being right.
For the safety of the customer, they enact new regulations, which are in fact only under emergency authorization. Once this pandemic becomes endemic and therefore not a threat worth worrying about, then these regulations become obsolete. Unless they pass these under legislation which is where some people feel this is where it's going to head to and set precedents for a lot of things now, under the guise of what constitutes "Public Health".
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I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.
I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.
Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.
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I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.
I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.
Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.
The funny thing is...People are the ones themselves that make things important as they are. People can become accustomed to change so much that what was once meant as a temporary change, ends up becoming the norm.
So this acceptance is what may end up happening as people submit because of their comforts in safety.
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You can still be vaccinated and test positive and therefore still able to transmit that virus.
Yes???
I mean, everyone knows that. Although the chances are much, much lower than for unvaccinated people.
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You can still be vaccinated and test positive and therefore still able to transmit that virus.
Yes???
I mean, everyone knows that. Although the chances are much, much lower than for unvaccinated people.
The game of chance here is Death and Hospitalization. With the vaccine this chance goes drastically down. Especially for those vulnerable.
If one does not know about a persons sickness, such as with Norm McDonald, and that person goes out into the world knowing their chance of death is still high (even if he was unable to take a vaccine) we wouldn't even care about whether our actions are affecting his health. It is until people know when people begin to show any signs of caring. Then you get people going into sympathy and caring mode and start treating that person differently, almost as if they're too fragile to live life and assess the risks on their own for their game of chance with death.
Some of these people are so bad in their health that even me getting a vaccine won't prevent death as they could get sick from some other bacteria lingering around somewhere else that I nor anyone else has touched besides themselves that is lying around their house. Bacteria is everywhere and certain kinds around household areas can affect peoples health as well. These living conditions can cause them to succumb to their health related issue the same as Covid, yet they won't know the cause and the diagnosis will be regarded as a death not worth placing blame for the how.
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I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.
I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.
Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.
Don't hold your breath. Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd. We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark. Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.
Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.
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I agree that a test is fine, but I don't like the cost being put on employees. That burden should fall to the employers (who should then be enabled to give uncooperative employees the axe).
The only other thing I would like is to see the hard criteria on when it ends. And that's my biggest critique of the newest guidance, as I see it. There's no clarity or solid footing around when the measures (even the currently existing ones) become active and when they become unnecessary. That's not to say that data isn't driving the decision making; but if it is, I'm just not seeing the where and how.
Do you know how much that would cost...And these businesses don't want to lose people that are good at what they do. It's not as easy for the smaller businesses. The issue is dividing the line for the smaller business while leveling up the big businesses as they have no problem paying for these tests, and can afford to lose several workers.
This has left them with a dilemma to deal with now...Layoff workers and have to go out and search for replacements? Cut down in size, to be below the 100 employee threshold?
These smaller businesses do not like this mandate because it's causing more unnecessary stress for the companies that are barely making it through Covid-19 as it is.
I don't know how much it would cost, but I also don't really care.
The employee should not have to pay just as they should not have to pay for any other mandatory testing or PPE.
But I pay for my driver's license! And my marriage license! We do this all the time!
(I'm kidding with you, personally, Skeever, but also making a larger point that has nothing to do with your post specifically.)
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I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.
I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.
Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.
Don't hold your breath. Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd. We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark. Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.
Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.
Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity. Covid is here to stay. Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates. That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems. And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.
-
I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.
I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.
Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.
Don't hold your breath. Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd. We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark. Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.
Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.
Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity. Covid is here to stay. Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates. That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems. And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.
And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated. You stay home until the next booster shot is available if you're that worried.
I know for sure, there will be people who will not take the booster shots.
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I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.
I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.
Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.
Don't hold your breath. Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd. We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark. Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.
Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.
Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity. Covid is here to stay. Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates. That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems. And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.
And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.
This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive proper protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 non-vaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count is low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effects, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.
-
I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.
I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.
Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.
Don't hold your breath. Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd. We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark. Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.
Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.
Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity. Covid is here to stay. Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates. That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems. And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.
And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.
This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 unvaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count it low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effect, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.
I agree. Personally, I'm not scared of being around an unvaccinated person, but the bolded statement is just not true generally and scientifically.
In regards to Ben's comment about just staying home. If you are that worried, yes, you should just stay home. But IMO, that is no way to live life. Sadly, for some, they may not have an option. Having a medical reason to not get vaxxed or having more than 1 comorbidity even vaccinated and you still have potential for death or severe illness. That's the whole point of getting everyone who is eligible to be vaxxed, to help those who can't.
In other news, I got this comment on my Unleash the Archers video on youtube
its so cool seeing these type of super spreader shows still going on during a pandemic in the united states !!! knowing that the you can still get covid even if you have the vaccine makes it so much more fun to go to shows like this so that the spread can keep happening and never stop ! thanks unleash , aether realm and seven kingdoms for doing your part to keep the pandemic alive and well !
I feel like we can't just let the world continue to be on pause. We did that last year, it may have helped, but it didn't stop covid. I don't believe we will ever stop covid or certainly not in the near future. We need to do our best to continue with our lives. If someone is just scared, they can stay home but don't shame the others who are vaccinated, following the rules, and trying their best to live their lives (or make a living for the bands). Also, that event was proof of vaccination only to get in. I really would hope no one was there with symptoms, but generally, it's unlikely it will become a super spreader event if everyone is vaccinated.
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I feel like we can't just let the world continue to be on pause. We did that last year, it may have helped, but it didn't stop covid. I don't believe we will ever stop covid or certainly not in the near future. We need to do our best to continue with our lives. If someone is just scared, they can stay home but don't shame the others who are vaccinated, following the rules, and trying their best to live their lives (or make a living for the bands). Also, that event was proof of vaccination only to get in. I really would hope no one was there with symptoms, but generally, it's unlikely it will become a super spreader event if everyone is vaccinated.
I went to see Last in Line in August and felt pretty comfortable being vaccinated and unmasked. For me, it's about the amount of people I'll be around in a close contact, and also learning to trust that sick people will do the right thing and stay home, and trut that the vaccine will do its job. The concert was seated and "socially distanced." I had 3-5 people around me, and really only had to worry about the one person that was next to me. I felt that my risk of being around someone covid-positive was relatively low at that concert. Walking through the venue was the same as walking through a restaurant - you would walk past people, but not necessarily be up in their face for an extended period of time.
Other times, like when I'm on the train and may have someone sitting within 3-6 feet of me, of course, I'll wear a mask (it is still federally mandated for public transportation). I don't want to bring covid home to my kids, but I also don't want to stay home ALL the time and hide.
My wife is still really unnerved being in a group of people or a crowd indoors.
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I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.
I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.
Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.
Don't hold your breath. Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd. We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark. Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.
Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.
Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity. Covid is here to stay. Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates. That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems. And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.
No argument here.
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I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.
I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.
Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.
Don't hold your breath. Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd. We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark. Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.
Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.
Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity. Covid is here to stay. Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates. That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems. And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.
And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.
This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive proper protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 non-vaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count is low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effects, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.
You don't know if it's doing it's thing on you or not. Do you care if it does work or not?
Because a lot of people do care whether it works or not and do care about not putting anything in their body if it's not going to work...
See it does work in preventing death.
So what is the end goal here...death prevention or case prevention...
As Cram said with the Israel...Even though they're vaccinated case numbers are still up.
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I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.
I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.
Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.
Don't hold your breath. Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd. We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark. Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.
Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.
Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity. Covid is here to stay. Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates. That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems. And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.
And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.
This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive proper protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 non-vaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count is low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effects, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.
You don't know if it's doing it's thing on you or not. Do you care if it does work or not?
Yes.
Because a lot of people do care whether it works or not and do care about not putting anything in their body if it's not going to work...
Cool.
See it does work in preventing death.
Yeah, I said that.
So what is the end goal here...death prevention or case prevention...
Both.
As Cram said with the Israel...Even though they're vaccinated case numbers are still up.
Still doesn't make what you said not complete bullshit.
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By the way, when someone says "Israel is vaccinated" that is pretty off. They have a VERY sizeable population that is anti-vaxx. I just read how hundreds of orthodox people who make a yearly pilgrimage to Europe came back with forged vaccination forms and forged negative test results. All of this stuff is keeping their cases up. And a huge majority of their cases are of the unvaccinated.
-
I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.
I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.
Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.
Don't hold your breath. Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd. We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark. Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.
Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.
Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity. Covid is here to stay. Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates. That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems. And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.
And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.
This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive proper protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 non-vaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count is low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effects, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.
You don't know if it's doing it's thing on you or not. Do you care if it does work or not?
Yes.
Because a lot of people do care whether it works or not and do care about not putting anything in their body if it's not going to work...
Cool.
See it does work in preventing death.
Yeah, I said that.
So what is the end goal here...death prevention or case prevention...
Both.
As Cram said with the Israel...Even though they're vaccinated case numbers are still up.
Still doesn't make what you said not complete bullshit.
If you're prevented from death, and if your relatives and all you care about are vaccinated. Why should you worry about anyone else being vaccinated or not?
I don't care what that other person does nor do I rely on that other. I do not depend on that other to prevent me from dying. I do not rely on that other to do what is considered righteous.
I do not trust that other, as people are not all good people. There are bad people, witches, those whom wish you harm and go out of their way to make you suffer and harm you. They exist in the world and why should I expect them to suddenly care and give a crap about morality and ethics.
So I do what I know I good and beneficial for me and those I care about.
That's all a man can do. And expecting the world to suddenly care is just a pipe dream and an optimistic view of people and reality.
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By the way, when someone says "Israel is vaccinated" that is pretty off. They have a VERY sizeable population that is anti-vaxx. I just read how hundreds of orthodox people who make a yearly pilgrimage to Europe came back with forged vaccination forms and forged negative test results. All of this stuff is keeping their cases up. And a huge majority of their cases are of the unvaccinated.
I said it, so I'll explain, they are simply the most vaccinated and have the most data pertaining to pfizer than any other country of size. They are also already doing boosters. Their cases levels are at an all time high now. I believe you and my wording may not be precise, but that's why I said it.
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By the way, when someone says "Israel is vaccinated" that is pretty off. They have a VERY sizeable population that is anti-vaxx. I just read how hundreds of orthodox people who make a yearly pilgrimage to Europe came back with forged vaccination forms and forged negative test results. All of this stuff is keeping their cases up. And a huge majority of their cases are of the unvaccinated.
I said it, so I'll explain, they are simply the most vaccinated and have the most data pertaining to pfizer than any other country of size. They are also already doing boosters. Their cases levels are at an all time high now. I believe you and my wording may not be precise, but that's why I said it.
Totally. I am confident you know what you're talking about. I just didn't want the short-hand to cause confusion. All good.
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I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.
I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.
Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.
Don't hold your breath. Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd. We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark. Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.
Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.
Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity. Covid is here to stay. Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates. That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems. And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.
And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.
This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive proper protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 non-vaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count is low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effects, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.
Look, I agree with you nominally, but that line is dangerous, because IT isn't entirely true as well. Or at least not as clear and certain as it seems. Let's say the number of "unprotected vaccinated" is 15%. Then in your room, you have the 15 people you COULD POSSIBLY get it from, and I'm sure we could calculate the number of probably "positives". Some portion of those are going to be unknowns, given that the vaccinated are more likely to be a-symptomatic. But not all 100 unvaccinated are potential carriers. Given that there are un-vaccinated people that just don't get sick, plus those who WERE sick and now have natural immunity, and the fact that the virus hits harder in the un-vaccinated than the vaccinated (thus those people are less likely to be in that 100 sample number by virtue that they are dying or dead), and I'm not convinced that it's that cut and dry.
Again, I nominally agree with your position, I'm just saying we have to be careful with the fallacy of "common sense" here.
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I feel like we can't just let the world continue to be on pause. We did that last year, it may have helped, but it didn't stop covid. I don't believe we will ever stop covid or certainly not in the near future. We need to do our best to continue with our lives. If someone is just scared, they can stay home but don't shame the others who are vaccinated, following the rules, and trying their best to live their lives (or make a living for the bands). Also, that event was proof of vaccination only to get in. I really would hope no one was there with symptoms, but generally, it's unlikely it will become a super spreader event if everyone is vaccinated.
I went to see Last in Line in August and felt pretty comfortable being vaccinated and unmasked. For me, it's about the amount of people I'll be around in a close contact, and also learning to trust that sick people will do the right thing and stay home, and trut that the vaccine will do its job. The concert was seated and "socially distanced." I had 3-5 people around me, and really only had to worry about the one person that was next to me. I felt that my risk of being around someone covid-positive was relatively low at that concert. Walking through the venue was the same as walking through a restaurant - you would walk past people, but not necessarily be up in their face for an extended period of time.
Other times, like when I'm on the train and may have someone sitting within 3-6 feet of me, of course, I'll wear a mask (it is still federally mandated for public transportation). I don't want to bring covid home to my kids, but I also don't want to stay home ALL the time and hide.
My wife is still really unnerved being in a group of people or a crowd indoors.
(https://i.imgur.com/pDmr3iW.jpg)
I was so close, when he stopped playing the last song, he just reached out and handed me his metal pick. It was almost uncomfortably close, since the stage was so low (only about six inches above the floor). At one point, Andrew was actually BEHIND me:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZZnbHT8.jpg)
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That's awesome. I was in the first row of seats, behind two rows of 4-person round tables, maybe 15-20 feet from the stage. Same deal - the stage was about six inches higher than the tables. Andrew Freeman heckled the guy that sat directly in front of him and spent the entire show texting, saying "you paid for the table, you get a little bit of hassling."
Two people wore masks during the show, everyone else was maskless. I was torn on guessing if they're vaccinated - most people were 40-50+, so you would think that they would be vaccinated. But I live in a redder county where the suburban, middle-aged individuals tend to be republican and/or anti-mask. Either way, i trusted my vaccine to do its job and I'm learning to trust people to do the right thing and not come out if they're sick or have been exposed to covid.
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This thing has been going on in earnest for 18 months or so. Not once have I seen somebody be obnoxious about masks or vaccinations down here IRL. Plenty of them on instaface, or whatever, but in person everybody minds their own damn business. I was in California for less than 8 hours before somebody walked by the HoB and yelled "Don't forget your masks you fucking idiots!" I've said it before, but for all of the lunacy of our politics, Texans are still among the most civilized people in this country. The idea of randomly insulting people because of their beliefs just doesn't register here.
California is doing alright with the masks. At least SoCal, and taking into account the self-absorbed assholes that make up a sizeable chunk of the population. In both Texas and Cali it largely seemed to be voluntary, but people are volunteering to wear them at a greater clip out there. There are places down here where you really feel out of place wearing a mask. Definitely not the case in SoCal, and the people who really should be wearing them (waiters, clerks, etc.) so so without fail. Even outdoor places you're seeing 50/50 or so, where in Texas it's more like 15/85.
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When I was in LA last month, I was a bit surprised about how many were wearing the masks just outside by themselves. I found it pretty apparent that people were fine to wear them optionally.
In NJ, I've never experienced in person anti-masking or anything like that. Just see it on the webz. But I will admit, it was nice to be back home in NJ where there is no mask mandate. Plenty of people still optionally wear them, that's cool, I've got no problem wiht that. But I like having the option and therefore I don't wear it if I don't have to.
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When I was in LA last month, I was a bit surprised about how many were wearing the masks just outside by themselves. I found it pretty apparent that people were fine to wear them optionally.
In NJ, I've never experienced in person anti-masking or anything like that. Just see it on the webz. But I will admit, it was nice to be back home in NJ where there is no mask mandate. Plenty of people still optionally wear them, that's cool, I've got no problem wiht that. But I like having the option and therefore I don't wear it if I don't have to.
That's kind of the same way up here in Connecticut. I usually do wear a mask, except some places like Home Depot where I can social distance, or the Uconn Football game where everything was outside.
I honestly haven't seen even one instance of mask bullying up here.
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But I pay for my driver's license! And my marriage license! We do this all the time!
(I'm kidding with you, personally, Skeever, but also making a larger point that has nothing to do with your post specifically.)
I won't try and argue the principle with you - because I probably can't. But I know how unpopular this mandate is going to be with a large portion of the workplace who, for whatever reason, just don't want to get the vaccine. And as much as I don't like it, I feel we owe these people some kind of consideration even though they've refuse to get with the program - after all, they've been lied to and led to believe in unchecked falsehoods for so long by so much of their own leadership.
Giving the unvaccinated a free test until they get with the program is no different to me than offering food stamps or some other form of welfare to those who refuse to work.
The unvaccinated have not chosen to be a social burden, they've just been brainwashed, and punishing them for it will only get so far. Punishing them for it is no different than taking away benefits from the poor or fining people for BS violations. Instead, I'd like to see them more gently brought up to speed...
And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.
This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive proper protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 non-vaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count is low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effects, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.
Ben-Jamin's thinking is of course certifiably fallacious.
Vaccines only work the way they're supposed to when most of the population is inoculated.
BTW, the willfully unvaccinated are currently the ones who will be responsible for cooking up the next several variants. And that will be ALL of our problem.
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Ben-Jamin's thinking is of course certifiably fallacious.
Vaccines only work the way they're supposed to when most of the population is inoculated.
BTW, the willfully unvaccinated are currently the ones who will be responsible for cooking up the next several variants. And that will be ALL of our problem.
That's a world problem, not a U.S. problem, though, in the sense that the globe is <50% vaccinated. If half the U.S. population that hasn't received two shots gets vaccinated, that's roughly 150* million people. That would make the global vaccination rate... <50%.
I'm not suggesting that we not do it, that's not how it works. But I am suggesting there's an inordinate weight being placed on those that aren't doing what WE want them to locally, and not enough focus on the fact that the PLANET isn't anywhere CLOSE to achieving the benefits of the vaccine even with them. We've also not approved the use for children under 12 yet; that's another 50 million people that CAN'T move the needle, as opposed to WON'T. Even if EVERY vaccine-hesitant person got vaccinated, we're still arguably not at herd immunity (that would put us just south of 85% by my math).
Does it matter where the variant comes from? Delta was not a U.S.-origin variant if memory serves.
My state is at 75% roughly. Our positivity ping-pongs between about 2.5% to about 4%.
* 30 million have received ONE shot just haven't received the second dose.
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But I pay for my driver's license! And my marriage license! We do this all the time!
(I'm kidding with you, personally, Skeever, but also making a larger point that has nothing to do with your post specifically.)
I won't try and argue the principle with you - because I probably can't. But I know how unpopular this mandate is going to be with a large portion of the workplace who, for whatever reason, just don't want to get the vaccine. And as much as I don't like it, I feel we owe these people some kind of consideration even though they've refuse to get with the program - after all, they've been lied to and led to believe in unchecked falsehoods for so long by so much of their own leadership.
Giving the unvaccinated a free test until they get with the program is no different to me than offering food stamps or some other form of welfare to those who refuse to work.
The unvaccinated have not chosen to be a social burden, they've just been brainwashed, and punishing them for it will only get so far. Punishing them for it is no different than taking away benefits from the poor or fining people for BS violations. Instead, I'd like to see them more gently brought up to speed...
And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.
This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive proper protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 non-vaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count is low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effects, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.
Ben-Jamin's thinking is of course certifiably fallacious.
Vaccines only work the way they're supposed to when most of the population is inoculated.
BTW, the willfully unvaccinated are currently the ones who will be responsible for cooking up the next several variants. And that will be ALL of our problem.
Yup. That's why vaccines are not a miracle drug, and there will never be a miracle drug. As long as we humans become ill by bacteria and infectious diseases then all we as humans can do is better our own health in whatever way we can to not become susceptible to them in the long-term. A vaccine is just a quick fix, like a band-aid, to mend the problem and lessen the severity of the wound, well it's more like a tourniquet than a band-aid.
What is proven to actually be causes of susceptibility. I would rather not be obese, not have heart disease, and not have these easily revers-able underlying health conditions.
Just think, if the population were not over-weight, didn't have high blood pressure, and hardly any heart issues, would this really have been an issue as most people would've had mild cases due to not having these underlying conditions that are making these case numbers rise.
You have to ask, why were people getting severe side effects of covid-19, and as everyone is different and not the same, everyone has their own health reasons why they are susceptible to the severe side effects of covid-19. If you know your health and where it stands, you should understand the risks involved with you and the people you care about. That is, if the others do tell you of an underlying health condition. Which is why I used Norm MacDonald as an example of someone still going through life without worry and no one even knew about his condition to sympathize about his health and his battle with Cancer.
I would like to ask those with underlying conditions and those whom are unable to take the vaccine how they feel about asking others to take action and work their lives around them, so they can live and thrive? Because we won't know how they feel and if our supposed feelings of sympathy for the sick are actually worth it if they do not care at all, and will go out regardless and end up getting in an accident because death decided to play the claw game and picked that person to die this way.
It's why Death, is a very important topic when discussing morality and ethics and whether those that are not taking a vaccine are actually deplorable and heartless people, and people that just do not care for anyone but themselves, such soulless bastards the unvaccinated are.
Which amazes me at the amount of hate people have for one another.
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Ben-Jamin's thinking is of course certifiably fallacious.
Vaccines only work the way they're supposed to when most of the population is inoculated.
BTW, the willfully unvaccinated are currently the ones who will be responsible for cooking up the next several variants. And that will be ALL of our problem.
That's a world problem, not a U.S. problem, though, in the sense that the globe is <50% vaccinated. If half the U.S. population that hasn't received two shots gets vaccinated, that's roughly 150* million people. That would make the global vaccination rate... <50%.
I'm not suggesting that we not do it, that's not how it works. But I am suggesting there's an inordinate weight being placed on those that aren't doing what WE want them to locally, and not enough focus on the fact that the PLANET isn't anywhere CLOSE to achieving the benefits of the vaccine even with them. We've also not approved the use for children under 12 yet; that's another 50 million people that CAN'T move the needle, as opposed to WON'T. Even if EVERY vaccine-hesitant person got vaccinated, we're still arguably not at herd immunity (that would put us just south of 85% by my math).
Does it matter where the variant comes from? Delta was not a U.S.-origin variant if memory serves.
My state is at 75% roughly. Our positivity ping-pongs between about 2.5% to about 4%.
* 30 million have received ONE shot just haven't received the second dose.
And who is to say those same people are willing to take the booster shots.
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Ben-Jamin's thinking is of course certifiably fallacious.
Vaccines only work the way they're supposed to when most of the population is inoculated.
BTW, the willfully unvaccinated are currently the ones who will be responsible for cooking up the next several variants. And that will be ALL of our problem.
That's a world problem, not a U.S. problem, though, in the sense that the globe is <50% vaccinated. If half the U.S. population that hasn't received two shots gets vaccinated, that's roughly 150* million people. That would make the global vaccination rate... <50%.
I'm not suggesting that we not do it, that's not how it works. But I am suggesting there's an inordinate weight being placed on those that aren't doing what WE want them to locally, and not enough focus on the fact that the PLANET isn't anywhere CLOSE to achieving the benefits of the vaccine even with them. We've also not approved the use for children under 12 yet; that's another 50 million people that CAN'T move the needle, as opposed to WON'T. Even if EVERY vaccine-hesitant person got vaccinated, we're still arguably not at herd immunity (that would put us just south of 85% by my math).
Does it matter where the variant comes from? Delta was not a U.S.-origin variant if memory serves.
My state is at 75% roughly. Our positivity ping-pongs between about 2.5% to about 4%.
* 30 million have received ONE shot just haven't received the second dose.
I have a hard time believing it should be as hard to keep it outside customs but the political tolerance might be similar to that of inoculating the workforce. I was just having coffee with a friend from Asia a few days ago and when I asked her why she came to America when we’re currently on fire with the delta she simply responded “you guys are the only ones crazy enough to let me in”.
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Are there videos out there that show packed hospitals across the US? There weren't any such videos out there in 2020, as far as I know, and last I checked, the pandemic was worse then, what with more deaths. In NYC, where covid was real bad, a makeshift hospital created for hospital overflow wasn't even used for extra covid patients, because it wasn't needed. In other countries, like Brazil, Philippines, for example, people filmed empty hospitals where their news outlets reported they were filled to the brim.
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I'm sure dehumanizing 'the unvaccinated' and blaming them for 'variants' spreading around the world, will work out great!
History doesn't always repeat itself, but it tends to rhyme pretty well.
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In other countries, like Brazil, Philippines, for example, people filmed empty hospitals where their news outlets reported they were filled to the brim.
Some people tried to do this in the UK when someone noticed the local hospitals were actually trying to deal with it in an organized way. I personally don't think much about such "news" trying to discredit generally reliable sources of information.
Meanwhile in Bergamo, Italy, army vehicles had to be dispatched to transport corpses because of how many people died back in the spring of 2020.
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Dr. Robert Malone, inventor of mRNA vaccine technology, discusses Covid, the vaccines, and other useful information surrounding treatment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwPKnOhJRYg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwPKnOhJRYg)
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JFC... the first google search for Dr. Robert Malone...
A man by the name of Dr. Robert Malone has recently found fame through alternative media outlets, claiming to be the RNA vaccine inventor and spouting out a mishmash of misleading claims.
Malone is a scientist. In 1989, he co-wrote a paper titled "Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection." While his work on RNA transfection might have been important, his claim to be the “inventor” of RNA vaccines is shaky, to say the least.
The first page is littered with articles (from reputable sources) debunking his claims.
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JFC... the first google search for Dr. Robert Malone...
A man by the name of Dr. Robert Malone has recently found fame through alternative media outlets, claiming to be the RNA vaccine inventor and spouting out a mishmash of misleading claims.
Malone is a scientist. In 1989, he co-wrote a paper titled "Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection." While his work on RNA transfection might have been important, his claim to be the “inventor” of RNA vaccines is shaky, to say the least.
The first page is littered with articles (from reputable sources) debunking his claims.
You mean he poste questionable information :omg:
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JFC... the first google search for Dr. Robert Malone...
A man by the name of Dr. Robert Malone has recently found fame through alternative media outlets, claiming to be the RNA vaccine inventor and spouting out a mishmash of misleading claims.
Malone is a scientist. In 1989, he co-wrote a paper titled "Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection." While his work on RNA transfection might have been important, his claim to be the “inventor” of RNA vaccines is shaky, to say the least.
The first page is littered with articles (from reputable sources) debunking his claims.
I'm shocked!
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JFC... the first google search for Dr. Robert Malone...
A man by the name of Dr. Robert Malone has recently found fame through alternative media outlets, claiming to be the RNA vaccine inventor and spouting out a mishmash of misleading claims.
Malone is a scientist. In 1989, he co-wrote a paper titled "Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection." While his work on RNA transfection might have been important, his claim to be the “inventor” of RNA vaccines is shaky, to say the least.
The first page is littered with articles (from reputable sources) debunking his claims.
I'm shocked!
These alternative web-sites are the death of us. Penn University researchers Drew Weissman and Katalin Kariko spearheaded the mRNA technology and in fact just received an award from the Albany Medical Center.
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Your first mistake was trusting a google search, especially going with the first result.
All sources must be taken with a grain of salt. I wouldn't trust ANYTHING I hear or read on the internet, as most sites are corrupt, and engage in censorship of some form or another.
Is the information Dr. Malone presents in the video inaccurate?? That is what is important.
Most media outlets reported the Invectermin OD story which turned out to be fake and no one has lost their jobs over it, nor has there been national outrage over it.
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JFC... the first google search for Dr. Robert Malone...
A man by the name of Dr. Robert Malone has recently found fame through alternative media outlets, claiming to be the RNA vaccine inventor and spouting out a mishmash of misleading claims.
Malone is a scientist. In 1989, he co-wrote a paper titled "Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection." While his work on RNA transfection might have been important, his claim to be the “inventor” of RNA vaccines is shaky, to say the least.
The first page is littered with articles (from reputable sources) debunking his claims.
I looked up his name on Google, and an article by The Atlantic first came up about him trying to spread 'disinformation'.
The Atlantic is NOT a reputable source.
Other links send you to articles explaining that the creation of the vaccines was a collaborative effort, so you can't say he had no part in it, but perhaps embellishing his involvement is unnecessary.
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So it's fake news then? :lol
Searched him on Duck Duck Go, first page there syas he's full of shit too.
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So it's fake news then? :lol
Searched him on Duck Duck Go, first page there syas he's full of shit too.
All these major search engines are untrustworthy, especially when you take links off page 1.
What do you mean, 'full of shit', the link titles say he had no part in the creation of the vaccines? That is false.
The link I posted is from Jimmy Dore, he doesn't tend to bring on guests who are 'full of shit'.
Is the info he presented in the video inaccurate? Are the Pharmaceutical companies just looking out for us common plebes?
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Your first mistake was trusting a google search, especially going with the first result.
All sources must be taken with a grain of salt. I wouldn't trust ANYTHING I hear or read on the internet, as most sites are corrupt, and engage in censorship of some form or another.
Is the information Dr. Malone presents in the video inaccurate?? That is what is important.
Most media outlets reported the Invectermin OD story which turned out to be fake and no one has lost their jobs over it, nor has there been national outrage over it.
There is nothing to respond to. He is a guy who feels a certain way about the vaccine rollout, but just because he was part of the invention of mRNA does not mean he has any access to any information that the rest of us don’t or that he is doing research on this mRNA vaccine. If he feels like the public are being misled about the side effects that’s his prerogative and he can have that opinion but I would just say what I’ve been telling people all along, talk to your doctor about it and bring those questions to them. If you’re worried that your doctor is not taking your questions and your particular situation seriously, then it’s time to get a new doctor. A good doctor will care about your current existing conditions and questions/concerns you may have about whether you should take a vaccine or not.
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Your first mistake was trusting a google search, especially going with the first result.
All sources must be taken with a grain of salt. I wouldn't trust ANYTHING I hear or read on the internet, as most sites are corrupt, and engage in censorship of some form or another.
Is the information Dr. Malone presents in the video inaccurate?? That is what is important.
Most media outlets reported the Invectermin OD story which turned out to be fake and no one has lost their jobs over it, nor has there been national outrage over it.
There is nothing to respond to. He is a guy who feels a certain way about the vaccine rollout, but just because he was part of the invention of mRNA does not mean he has any access to any information that the rest of us don’t or that he is doing research on this mRNA vaccine. If he feels like the public are being misled about the side effects that’s his prerogative and he can have that opinion but I would just say what I’ve been telling people all along, talk to your doctor about it and bring those questions to them. If you’re worried that your doctor is not taking your questions and your particular situation seriously, then it’s time to get a new doctor. A good doctor will care about your current existing conditions and questions/concerns you may have about whether you should take a vaccine or not.
I agree with much of this, of course you should talk to your own doctor about your medical inquiries.
It's the outright dismissal of my post and the content posted because someone did a google search on the doctor, when those people have no medical degrees I am aware of, that is a problem. Search engine companies, news media outlets, and politicians also have no medical degrees either, yet they are pushing policies based on the opinion of one man (Tony Fauci). We shouldn't be afraid to share information or medical professional's opinions. No one here or on the youtube link is recommending doing anything without consulting your doctor first.
Something else talked about is the fear porn over the virus, and how it is because the pharma companies have a stranglehold over the news companies as well as most politicians, because they want to make more money off the vaccines, since early treatments are cheap and don't make those people rich. Dr. Malone is no more trustworthy than Dr. Fauci. Fauci, who has been wrong about almost everything related to covid (and HIV) still has his job from one administration to the next, and is constantly touted on TV and computer screens by the so-called reputable sources of news, but that's OK because HE'S the guy we have to 'trust'.
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Are there videos out there that show packed hospitals across the US? There weren't any such videos out there in 2020, as far as I know, and last I checked, the pandemic was worse then, what with more deaths. In NYC, where covid was real bad, a makeshift hospital created for hospital overflow wasn't even used for extra covid patients, because it wasn't needed. In other countries, like Brazil, Philippines, for example, people filmed empty hospitals where their news outlets reported they were filled to the brim.
You must be very gullible to things like this https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRQvXF2S/ (https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRQvXF2S/)
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I agree with much of this, of course you should talk to your own doctor about your medical inquiries.
It's the outright dismissal of my post and the content posted because someone did a google search on the doctor, when those people have no medical degrees I am aware of, that is a problem. Search engine companies, news media outlets, and politicians also have no medical degrees. We shouldn't be afraid to share information or medical professional's opinions. No one here or on the youtube link is recommending doing anything without consulting your doctor first.
For what it's worth, I don't think you did anything wrong by sharing the link to the Jimmy Dore show. But it's concerning to me that people care more about what youtubers and TV hosts say than they do their own Doctors. Maybe you're not this way, but we're living in a world where people have let their political content streams determine what they will do for them before they've bothered talked to professionals. My sister in law who I mentioned earlier is like this - stopped going to her Doctor the minute he told her she should be vaccinated. Her mind had already been made up by social media.
Something else talked about is the fear porn over the virus, and how it is because the pharma companies have a stranglehold over the news companies as well as most politicians, because they want to make more money off the vaccines, since early treatments are cheap and don't make those people rich. Dr. Malone is no more trustworthy than Dr. Fauci. Fauci, who has been wrong about almost everything related to covid (and HIV) still has his job from one administration to the next, and is constantly touted on TV and computer screens by the so-called reputable sources of news, but that's OK.
I don't really know what to say to this, but I understand the concerns. This is the world we live in. We're at the mercy of professionals and industry specialists, who work for private profit. We rely on regulatory bodies like the FDA to keep them from running off the rails, knowing that there will always be corruption and conflicts of interest. I'm somewhat at peace with the idea that this is just the world we live in - if I develop some ailment later in life because the FDA failed to honorably contain capitalism's total apathy toward my long-term health, so be it. The alternative is trusting someone on the fringe with even less basis, or even worse, burying your head in the sand and doing nothing. I'll bet on the big money because it's really the only choice I have. If something bad happens to me, I take solace in the fact that it's a failure of my nation and our economic system and that I only did what I was supposed to do.
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Are there videos out there that show packed hospitals across the US? There weren't any such videos out there in 2020, as far as I know, and last I checked, the pandemic was worse then, what with more deaths. In NYC, where covid was real bad, a makeshift hospital created for hospital overflow wasn't even used for extra covid patients, because it wasn't needed. In other countries, like Brazil, Philippines, for example, people filmed empty hospitals where their news outlets reported they were filled to the brim.
You must be very gullible to things like this https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRQvXF2S/ (https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRQvXF2S/)
I'm not clicking that link.
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I agree with much of this, of course you should talk to your own doctor about your medical inquiries.
It's the outright dismissal of my post and the content posted because someone did a google search on the doctor, when those people have no medical degrees I am aware of, that is a problem. Search engine companies, news media outlets, and politicians also have no medical degrees. We shouldn't be afraid to share information or medical professional's opinions. No one here or on the youtube link is recommending doing anything without consulting your doctor first.
For what it's worth, I don't think you did anything wrong by sharing the link to the Jimmy Dore show. But it's concerning to me that people care more about what youtubers and TV hosts say than they do their own Doctors. Maybe you're not this way, but we're living in a world where people have let their political content streams determine what they will do for them before they've bothered talked to professionals. My sister in law who I mentioned earlier is like this - stopped going to her Doctor the minute he told her she should be vaccinated. Her mind had already been made up by social media.
Something else talked about is the fear porn over the virus, and how it is because the pharma companies have a stranglehold over the news companies as well as most politicians, because they want to make more money off the vaccines, since early treatments are cheap and don't make those people rich. Dr. Malone is no more trustworthy than Dr. Fauci. Fauci, who has been wrong about almost everything related to covid (and HIV) still has his job from one administration to the next, and is constantly touted on TV and computer screens by the so-called reputable sources of news, but that's OK.
I don't really know what to say to this, but I understand the concerns. This is the world we live in. We're at the mercy of professionals and industry specialists, who work for private profit. We rely on regulatory bodies like the FDA to keep them from running off the rails, knowing that there will always be corruption and conflicts of interest. I'm somewhat at peace with the idea that this is just the world we live in - if I develop some ailment later in life because the FDA failed to honorably contain capitalism's total apathy toward my long-term health, so be it. The alternative is trusting someone on the fringe with even less basis, or even worse, burying your head in the sand and doing nothing. I'll bet on the big money because it's really the only choice I have. If something bad happens to me, I take solace in the fact that it's a failure of my nation and our economic system and that I only did what I was supposed to do.
I appreciate your response, because it is rational, and not immature.
This doesn't have to be the world we live in. This is the result of decades of apathy throughout the latter half of the 20th century. We can do better, and more people are less apathetic about the system than they were were even 10 years ago, so I'm keeping my glass half full for now. Unfortunately, it may be too late. Too much control over most mechanisms in our society are in the hands of a few select people, with more money than any of us have ever dreamed about having.
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Are there videos out there that show packed hospitals across the US? There weren't any such videos out there in 2020, as far as I know, and last I checked, the pandemic was worse then, what with more deaths. In NYC, where covid was real bad, a makeshift hospital created for hospital overflow wasn't even used for extra covid patients, because it wasn't needed. In other countries, like Brazil, Philippines, for example, people filmed empty hospitals where their news outlets reported they were filled to the brim.
You must be very gullible to things like this https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRQvXF2S/ (https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRQvXF2S/)
I'm not clicking that link.
:lol
-
Are there videos out there that show packed hospitals across the US? There weren't any such videos out there in 2020, as far as I know, and last I checked, the pandemic was worse then, what with more deaths. In NYC, where covid was real bad, a makeshift hospital created for hospital overflow wasn't even used for extra covid patients, because it wasn't needed. In other countries, like Brazil, Philippines, for example, people filmed empty hospitals where their news outlets reported they were filled to the brim.
Absolutely.
Just yesterday, I was watching a one hour video about the 2021 major league baseball season. Did you know that no player has had a hit ALL year? Not one!!! Incredible and almost unbelievable, but I saw it with my own two eyes.
<oops...turns out it was a special about all nine of the official no-hitters. My bad>
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I agree with much of this, of course you should talk to your own doctor about your medical inquiries.
It's the outright dismissal of my post and the content posted because someone did a google search on the doctor, when those people have no medical degrees I am aware of, that is a problem. Search engine companies, news media outlets, and politicians also have no medical degrees. We shouldn't be afraid to share information or medical professional's opinions. No one here or on the youtube link is recommending doing anything without consulting your doctor first.
For what it's worth, I don't think you did anything wrong by sharing the link to the Jimmy Dore show. But it's concerning to me that people care more about what youtubers and TV hosts say than they do their own Doctors. Maybe you're not this way, but we're living in a world where people have let their political content streams determine what they will do for them before they've bothered talked to professionals. My sister in law who I mentioned earlier is like this - stopped going to her Doctor the minute he told her she should be vaccinated. Her mind had already been made up by social media.
Something else talked about is the fear porn over the virus, and how it is because the pharma companies have a stranglehold over the news companies as well as most politicians, because they want to make more money off the vaccines, since early treatments are cheap and don't make those people rich. Dr. Malone is no more trustworthy than Dr. Fauci. Fauci, who has been wrong about almost everything related to covid (and HIV) still has his job from one administration to the next, and is constantly touted on TV and computer screens by the so-called reputable sources of news, but that's OK.
I don't really know what to say to this, but I understand the concerns. This is the world we live in. We're at the mercy of professionals and industry specialists, who work for private profit. We rely on regulatory bodies like the FDA to keep them from running off the rails, knowing that there will always be corruption and conflicts of interest. I'm somewhat at peace with the idea that this is just the world we live in - if I develop some ailment later in life because the FDA failed to honorably contain capitalism's total apathy toward my long-term health, so be it. The alternative is trusting someone on the fringe with even less basis, or even worse, burying your head in the sand and doing nothing. I'll bet on the big money because it's really the only choice I have. If something bad happens to me, I take solace in the fact that it's a failure of my nation and our economic system and that I only did what I was supposed to do.
I appreciate your response, because it is rational, and not immature.
This doesn't have to be the world we live in. This is the result of decades of apathy throughout the latter half of the 20th century. We can do better, and more people are less apathetic about the system than they were were even 10 years ago, so I'm keeping my glass half full for now. Unfortunately, it may be too late. Too much control over most mechanisms in our society are in the hands of a few select people, with more money than any of us have ever dreamed about having.
Don't forget the comforts of life that we all have now such as food being delivered to your door at the touch of a button, being able to go to another part of the world, being able to easily go out and get food, the luxuries of being able to spend your time playing video games on a screen yelling at the other player across the pond.
You think people could easily give up these comforts? I feel we got our answer with Covid...
-
Are there videos out there that show packed hospitals across the US? There weren't any such videos out there in 2020, as far as I know, and last I checked, the pandemic was worse then, what with more deaths. In NYC, where covid was real bad, a makeshift hospital created for hospital overflow wasn't even used for extra covid patients, because it wasn't needed. In other countries, like Brazil, Philippines, for example, people filmed empty hospitals where their news outlets reported they were filled to the brim.
You must be very gullible to things like this https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRQvXF2S/ (https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRQvXF2S/)
I'm not clicking that link.
:lol
Give me a non-TikTok link. Glad you are amused.
-
You think people could easily give up these comforts? I feel we got our answer with Covid...
Easily? No. Most people are still apathetic to their world, most know next to nothing about what is going on in their neighborhood, let alone in another state or another country, surely not about infectious diseases and pharmaceutical companies tied to media outlets and political parties. Like you said, they'll gladly keep eating fast food delivered to their house while they play video games and collect welfare money.
-
Are there videos out there that show packed hospitals across the US? There weren't any such videos out there in 2020, as far as I know, and last I checked, the pandemic was worse then, what with more deaths. In NYC, where covid was real bad, a makeshift hospital created for hospital overflow wasn't even used for extra covid patients, because it wasn't needed. In other countries, like Brazil, Philippines, for example, people filmed empty hospitals where their news outlets reported they were filled to the brim.
You must be very gullible to things like this https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRQvXF2S/ (https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRQvXF2S/)
I'm not clicking that link.
:lol
Give me a non-TikTok link. Glad you are amused.
What's the issue wtih tiktok? You dont need an account to view the video
-
Doesn't want the Chinese to steal his info.
-
I agree with much of this, of course you should talk to your own doctor about your medical inquiries.
It's the outright dismissal of my post and the content posted because someone did a google search on the doctor, when those people have no medical degrees I am aware of, that is a problem. Search engine companies, news media outlets, and politicians also have no medical degrees. We shouldn't be afraid to share information or medical professional's opinions. No one here or on the youtube link is recommending doing anything without consulting your doctor first.
For what it's worth, I don't think you did anything wrong by sharing the link to the Jimmy Dore show. But it's concerning to me that people care more about what youtubers and TV hosts say than they do their own Doctors. Maybe you're not this way, but we're living in a world where people have let their political content streams determine what they will do for them before they've bothered talked to professionals. My sister in law who I mentioned earlier is like this - stopped going to her Doctor the minute he told her she should be vaccinated. Her mind had already been made up by social media.
Something else talked about is the fear porn over the virus, and how it is because the pharma companies have a stranglehold over the news companies as well as most politicians, because they want to make more money off the vaccines, since early treatments are cheap and don't make those people rich. Dr. Malone is no more trustworthy than Dr. Fauci. Fauci, who has been wrong about almost everything related to covid (and HIV) still has his job from one administration to the next, and is constantly touted on TV and computer screens by the so-called reputable sources of news, but that's OK.
I don't really know what to say to this, but I understand the concerns. This is the world we live in. We're at the mercy of professionals and industry specialists, who work for private profit. We rely on regulatory bodies like the FDA to keep them from running off the rails, knowing that there will always be corruption and conflicts of interest. I'm somewhat at peace with the idea that this is just the world we live in - if I develop some ailment later in life because the FDA failed to honorably contain capitalism's total apathy toward my long-term health, so be it. The alternative is trusting someone on the fringe with even less basis, or even worse, burying your head in the sand and doing nothing. I'll bet on the big money because it's really the only choice I have. If something bad happens to me, I take solace in the fact that it's a failure of my nation and our economic system and that I only did what I was supposed to do.
I appreciate your response, because it is rational, and not immature.
This doesn't have to be the world we live in. This is the result of decades of apathy throughout the latter half of the 20th century. We can do better, and more people are less apathetic about the system than they were were even 10 years ago, so I'm keeping my glass half full for now. Unfortunately, it may be too late. Too much control over most mechanisms in our society are in the hands of a few select people, with more money than any of us have ever dreamed about having.
So I have to ask, and I'm asking this honestly and respectfully, who's behind it all? See, if it were just us 'Mericans I might see your point. What we seem to be seeing is a completely global phenomenon. The freedom you see us sacrificing is minor compared to other countries, and massive compared to still others. Are the Japanese being conned? The Russians? The Swiss? The Somali? Are Dr. Stravinski, Dr. Chang, and Dr. Umfufu equally misinformed, or misleading? What about the other vaccines, both American and foreign? Is the Sputnik vaccine just as dubious? What about the Indian vaccine? And for that matter, what about Johnson and Johnson (Belgian, I believe), which is a completely different mechanism?
That's what's intriguing to me. What some like yourself suggest is that we're seeing the greatest global effort ever put together for a single, unified cause. That would be truly remarkable, yet I think we're really all just winging it the best we can. As is usually the case, confusion, dysfunction, ineptitude, and the like are far more likely causes than ill-intent.
-
Are there videos out there that show packed hospitals across the US? There weren't any such videos out there in 2020, as far as I know, and last I checked, the pandemic was worse then, what with more deaths. In NYC, where covid was real bad, a makeshift hospital created for hospital overflow wasn't even used for extra covid patients, because it wasn't needed. In other countries, like Brazil, Philippines, for example, people filmed empty hospitals where their news outlets reported they were filled to the brim.
You must be very gullible to things like this https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRQvXF2S/ (https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRQvXF2S/)
I'm not clicking that link.
:lol
Give me a non-TikTok link. Glad you are amused.
What's the issue wtih tiktok? You dont need an account to view the video
Everything. It's a part of the problem of Social Media. Talk about Gullibility, let's discuss those Milk Crate Challenge people that just had to follow the herd. And if they get hurt, they're shit out of luck as the Covid patients take precedent. And I just laugh and go on my merry way.
People actually are using Tik-Tok as a platform for their opinions and perspectives, in hopes that people will listen and glorify their points and perspectives.
That's the issue I see with regards to Tik-Tok..
Interestingly, there's a guy in my class who is doing a social commentary on Tik-Tok so I look forward to his thoughts on it. And my instructor who is a couple years older than me doesn't understand the popularity of Tik-Tok, which I found funny and also interesting that it's not just me, and that it may be a product that became popular with the age group that is like 5 years younger than me.
The only Social Media I have are Facebook and Twitter. I do have others but rarely if at all go there. I'm of the generation that feels Myspace was the best social media platform ever invented and it all went to shit when Facebook became popular and Myspace bécame MyFace. :lol
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DTF is my social media.
-
Ben-Jamin's thinking is of course certifiably fallacious.
Vaccines only work the way they're supposed to when most of the population is inoculated.
BTW, the willfully unvaccinated are currently the ones who will be responsible for cooking up the next several variants. And that will be ALL of our problem.
That's a world problem, not a U.S. problem, though, in the sense that the globe is <50% vaccinated. If half the U.S. population that hasn't received two shots gets vaccinated, that's roughly 150* million people. That would make the global vaccination rate... <50%.
I'm not suggesting that we not do it, that's not how it works. But I am suggesting there's an inordinate weight being placed on those that aren't doing what WE want them to locally, and not enough focus on the fact that the PLANET isn't anywhere CLOSE to achieving the benefits of the vaccine even with them. We've also not approved the use for children under 12 yet; that's another 50 million people that CAN'T move the needle, as opposed to WON'T. Even if EVERY vaccine-hesitant person got vaccinated, we're still arguably not at herd immunity (that would put us just south of 85% by my math).
Does it matter where the variant comes from? Delta was not a U.S.-origin variant if memory serves.
My state is at 75% roughly. Our positivity ping-pongs between about 2.5% to about 4%.
* 30 million have received ONE shot just haven't received the second dose.
I have a hard time believing it should be as hard to keep it outside customs but the political tolerance might be similar to that of inoculating the workforce. I was just having coffee with a friend from Asia a few days ago and when I asked her why she came to America when we’re currently on fire with the delta she simply responded “you guys are the only ones crazy enough to let me in”.
I'm not sure I 100% get your point, so don't jump on me if it seems I'm not getting it, but as a general point, given the immigration problem, given the "sanctuary city" and "sanctuary state" phenomena, keeping COVID out of the country through borders is like keeping notes out of an Yngwie Malmsteen song. It seems to me, the only place it's hard to get in and out of is CANADA (where's my LUMBER and sheetrock guys!!!!)
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I agree with much of this, of course you should talk to your own doctor about your medical inquiries.
It's the outright dismissal of my post and the content posted because someone did a google search on the doctor, when those people have no medical degrees I am aware of, that is a problem. Search engine companies, news media outlets, and politicians also have no medical degrees. We shouldn't be afraid to share information or medical professional's opinions. No one here or on the youtube link is recommending doing anything without consulting your doctor first.
For what it's worth, I don't think you did anything wrong by sharing the link to the Jimmy Dore show. But it's concerning to me that people care more about what youtubers and TV hosts say than they do their own Doctors. Maybe you're not this way, but we're living in a world where people have let their political content streams determine what they will do for them before they've bothered talked to professionals. My sister in law who I mentioned earlier is like this - stopped going to her Doctor the minute he told her she should be vaccinated. Her mind had already been made up by social media.
Something else talked about is the fear porn over the virus, and how it is because the pharma companies have a stranglehold over the news companies as well as most politicians, because they want to make more money off the vaccines, since early treatments are cheap and don't make those people rich. Dr. Malone is no more trustworthy than Dr. Fauci. Fauci, who has been wrong about almost everything related to covid (and HIV) still has his job from one administration to the next, and is constantly touted on TV and computer screens by the so-called reputable sources of news, but that's OK.
I don't really know what to say to this, but I understand the concerns. This is the world we live in. We're at the mercy of professionals and industry specialists, who work for private profit. We rely on regulatory bodies like the FDA to keep them from running off the rails, knowing that there will always be corruption and conflicts of interest. I'm somewhat at peace with the idea that this is just the world we live in - if I develop some ailment later in life because the FDA failed to honorably contain capitalism's total apathy toward my long-term health, so be it. The alternative is trusting someone on the fringe with even less basis, or even worse, burying your head in the sand and doing nothing. I'll bet on the big money because it's really the only choice I have. If something bad happens to me, I take solace in the fact that it's a failure of my nation and our economic system and that I only did what I was supposed to do.
I appreciate your response, because it is rational, and not immature.
This doesn't have to be the world we live in. This is the result of decades of apathy throughout the latter half of the 20th century. We can do better, and more people are less apathetic about the system than they were were even 10 years ago, so I'm keeping my glass half full for now. Unfortunately, it may be too late. Too much control over most mechanisms in our society are in the hands of a few select people, with more money than any of us have ever dreamed about having.
So I have to ask, and I'm asking this honestly and respectfully, who's behind it all? See, if it were just us 'Mericans I might see your point. What we seem to be seeing is a completely global phenomenon. The freedom you see us sacrificing is minor compared to other countries, and massive compared to still others. Are the Japanese being conned? The Russians? The Swiss? The Somali? Are Dr. Stravinski, Dr. Chang, and Dr. Umfufu equally misinformed, or misleading? What about the other vaccines, both American and foreign? Is the Sputnik vaccine just as dubious? What about the Indian vaccine? And for that matter, what about Johnson and Johnson (Belgian, I believe), which is a completely different mechanism?
That's what's intriguing to me. What some like yourself suggest is that we're seeing the greatest global effort ever put together for a single, unified cause. That would be truly remarkable, yet I think we're really all just winging it the best we can. As is usually the case, confusion, dysfunction, ineptitude, and the like are far more likely causes than ill-intent.
It's funny to read someone talking about corruption just in one country when there is a bigger picture with all countries. As if the wool could be pulled over the world's eye.
-
You think people could easily give up these comforts? I feel we got our answer with Covid...
Easily? No. Most people are still apathetic to their world, most know next to nothing about what is going on in their neighborhood.
I love it when one person speaks for most people.
-
I agree with much of this, of course you should talk to your own doctor about your medical inquiries.
It's the outright dismissal of my post and the content posted because someone did a google search on the doctor, when those people have no medical degrees I am aware of, that is a problem. Search engine companies, news media outlets, and politicians also have no medical degrees. We shouldn't be afraid to share information or medical professional's opinions. No one here or on the youtube link is recommending doing anything without consulting your doctor first.
For what it's worth, I don't think you did anything wrong by sharing the link to the Jimmy Dore show. But it's concerning to me that people care more about what youtubers and TV hosts say than they do their own Doctors. Maybe you're not this way, but we're living in a world where people have let their political content streams determine what they will do for them before they've bothered talked to professionals. My sister in law who I mentioned earlier is like this - stopped going to her Doctor the minute he told her she should be vaccinated. Her mind had already been made up by social media.
Something else talked about is the fear porn over the virus, and how it is because the pharma companies have a stranglehold over the news companies as well as most politicians, because they want to make more money off the vaccines, since early treatments are cheap and don't make those people rich. Dr. Malone is no more trustworthy than Dr. Fauci. Fauci, who has been wrong about almost everything related to covid (and HIV) still has his job from one administration to the next, and is constantly touted on TV and computer screens by the so-called reputable sources of news, but that's OK.
I don't really know what to say to this, but I understand the concerns. This is the world we live in. We're at the mercy of professionals and industry specialists, who work for private profit. We rely on regulatory bodies like the FDA to keep them from running off the rails, knowing that there will always be corruption and conflicts of interest. I'm somewhat at peace with the idea that this is just the world we live in - if I develop some ailment later in life because the FDA failed to honorably contain capitalism's total apathy toward my long-term health, so be it. The alternative is trusting someone on the fringe with even less basis, or even worse, burying your head in the sand and doing nothing. I'll bet on the big money because it's really the only choice I have. If something bad happens to me, I take solace in the fact that it's a failure of my nation and our economic system and that I only did what I was supposed to do.
I appreciate your response, because it is rational, and not immature.
This doesn't have to be the world we live in. This is the result of decades of apathy throughout the latter half of the 20th century. We can do better, and more people are less apathetic about the system than they were were even 10 years ago, so I'm keeping my glass half full for now. Unfortunately, it may be too late. Too much control over most mechanisms in our society are in the hands of a few select people, with more money than any of us have ever dreamed about having.
So I have to ask, and I'm asking this honestly and respectfully, who's behind it all? See, if it were just us 'Mericans I might see your point. What we seem to be seeing is a completely global phenomenon. The freedom you see us sacrificing is minor compared to other countries, and massive compared to still others. Are the Japanese being conned? The Russians? The Swiss? The Somali? Are Dr. Stravinski, Dr. Chang, and Dr. Umfufu equally misinformed, or misleading? What about the other vaccines, both American and foreign? Is the Sputnik vaccine just as dubious? What about the Indian vaccine? And for that matter, what about Johnson and Johnson (Belgian, I believe), which is a completely different mechanism?
That's what's intriguing to me. What some like yourself suggest is that we're seeing the greatest global effort ever put together for a single, unified cause. That would be truly remarkable, yet I think we're really all just winging it the best we can. As is usually the case, confusion, dysfunction, ineptitude, and the like are far more likely causes than ill-intent.
Globalization began with conquering the world. These were the ones who wanted the world to be dominated and rules under their laws and customs. And yes, lots of Indigenous Peoples of the world were coerced and forced into submission by way of assimilation. Forced into making the plants, the customs, the traditions and livelihoods of the people become part of the factory to become a product to be distributed to the world.
These conquerors used slave labor as their people that lived in another country benefited from the labor while those in the farmland suffered greatly. They did not see any of the fruits of their labors, if they did, it was the rotten, useless, fruits.
This led to depletion of land and soil, this led to people having to migrate to a new place and adapt to their new environment.
The problem with Equalization and equality is that it can't be assumed that everyone is made the same. That is just false. People are made differently and if we accept this fact, how can we make life Equal for all. To be Equal, everyone has to be the same. Same mindset, same thoughts, same rules, same order, all under One...I honestly believe we can not have true equality in the sense that everyone is made the same.
What we can have is Unity. Unity is respect, compassion, and understanding of the other while allowing them to be who they are. This allows humans to be different, yet as one united under the respect, compassion, and understanding each has for one another. I consider that true love and understanding for the other.
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You think people could easily give up these comforts? I feel we got our answer with Covid...
Easily? No. Most people are still apathetic to their world, most know next to nothing about what is going on in their neighborhood.
I love it when one person speaks for most people.
Like when people assume unvaccinated people are anti-vax or republicans or Trump Supporters. They assume that person who is vocal is speaking for all the unvaccinated and that all the unvaccinated think like that vocal person.
-
You think people could easily give up these comforts? I feel we got our answer with Covid...
Easily? No. Most people are still apathetic to their world, most know next to nothing about what is going on in their neighborhood.
I love it when one person speaks for most people.
Like when people assume unvaccinated people are anti-vax or republicans or Trump Supporters. They assume that person who is vocal is speaking for all the unvaccinated and that all the unvaccinated think like that vocal person.
Not saying correlation is causation but...
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/242156681_4130140037084072_3029037993880126877_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=UchDV8WM-5MAX_vcBN8&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=9a2455a20d99edcdc64ac0dd4eff1009&oe=61480881)
It should be noted for those unfamiliar with CA geography, the low covid areas are where the high population density of the state is, a very, very blue state. These are also the areas where vaccine rates are highest and where mask mandates are followed for the most part. Also...CA is on pace to be the first state to be on the downside of the Delta surge because of our handling of it. I know that means dick to those who think the pandemic is a fallacy and a scam but it is what it is.
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Actually, my first mistake was reading and responding to a post of Darkshade's.
Searched him on Duck Duck Go, first page there syas he's full of shit too.
Yeah, that's exactly where I pulled that quote from. Joke's on you Darkshade, I don't trust the Google either ... just used it as a ubiquitous verb.
It's the outright dismissal of my post and the content posted because someone did a google search on the doctor, when those people have no medical degrees I am aware of, that is a problem. Search engine companies, news media outlets, and politicians also have no medical degrees either
Do YOU have a medical degree? By your own logic, I shouldn't pay attention to the information you're spreading.
-
I agree with much of this, of course you should talk to your own doctor about your medical inquiries.
It's the outright dismissal of my post and the content posted because someone did a google search on the doctor, when those people have no medical degrees I am aware of, that is a problem. Search engine companies, news media outlets, and politicians also have no medical degrees. We shouldn't be afraid to share information or medical professional's opinions. No one here or on the youtube link is recommending doing anything without consulting your doctor first.
For what it's worth, I don't think you did anything wrong by sharing the link to the Jimmy Dore show. But it's concerning to me that people care more about what youtubers and TV hosts say than they do their own Doctors. Maybe you're not this way, but we're living in a world where people have let their political content streams determine what they will do for them before they've bothered talked to professionals. My sister in law who I mentioned earlier is like this - stopped going to her Doctor the minute he told her she should be vaccinated. Her mind had already been made up by social media.
Something else talked about is the fear porn over the virus, and how it is because the pharma companies have a stranglehold over the news companies as well as most politicians, because they want to make more money off the vaccines, since early treatments are cheap and don't make those people rich. Dr. Malone is no more trustworthy than Dr. Fauci. Fauci, who has been wrong about almost everything related to covid (and HIV) still has his job from one administration to the next, and is constantly touted on TV and computer screens by the so-called reputable sources of news, but that's OK.
I don't really know what to say to this, but I understand the concerns. This is the world we live in. We're at the mercy of professionals and industry specialists, who work for private profit. We rely on regulatory bodies like the FDA to keep them from running off the rails, knowing that there will always be corruption and conflicts of interest. I'm somewhat at peace with the idea that this is just the world we live in - if I develop some ailment later in life because the FDA failed to honorably contain capitalism's total apathy toward my long-term health, so be it. The alternative is trusting someone on the fringe with even less basis, or even worse, burying your head in the sand and doing nothing. I'll bet on the big money because it's really the only choice I have. If something bad happens to me, I take solace in the fact that it's a failure of my nation and our economic system and that I only did what I was supposed to do.
Skeever, kudos to you. You don't have to agree with Darkshade, and it doesn't sound like you do, but as someone who has written about the divisiveness that is paralyzing our country, the fact that you respond - in that disagreement - with decorum, moderation and civility, impresses the hell out of me. And I for one, appreciate that gesture.
I'm being 100% sincere here, no sarcasm, no snark.
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DTF is my social media.
WHERE'S THE DAMN LIKE BUTTON?!?!?
;D ;D ;D
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Oh...so that's god's last name. Damn...
-
You think people could easily give up these comforts? I feel we got our answer with Covid...
Easily? No. Most people are still apathetic to their world, most know next to nothing about what is going on in their neighborhood.
I love it when one person speaks for most people.
Like when people assume unvaccinated people are anti-vax or republicans or Trump Supporters. They assume that person who is vocal is speaking for all the unvaccinated and that all the unvaccinated think like that vocal person.
Not saying correlation is causation but...
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/242156681_4130140037084072_3029037993880126877_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=UchDV8WM-5MAX_vcBN8&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=9a2455a20d99edcdc64ac0dd4eff1009&oe=61480881)
It should be noted for those unfamiliar with CA geography, the low covid areas are where the high population density of the state is, a very, very blue state. These are also the areas where vaccine rates are highest and where mask mandates are followed for the most part. Also...CA is on pace to be the first state to be on the downside of the Delta surge because of our handling of it. I know that means dick to those who think the pandemic is a fallacy and a scam but it is what it is.
But the association with a political vote is at best misleading. I'm a very blue state as well, and not only are the causations not here, neither is the correlation. I know, I know, there's that one article out there, and it will persevere for those that need to see that vindication (not saying you, personally). But that doesn't make it any more right or any more effective in changing minds.
-
You think people could easily give up these comforts? I feel we got our answer with Covid...
Easily? No. Most people are still apathetic to their world, most know next to nothing about what is going on in their neighborhood.
I love it when one person speaks for most people.
Like when people assume unvaccinated people are anti-vax or republicans or Trump Supporters. They assume that person who is vocal is speaking for all the unvaccinated and that all the unvaccinated think like that vocal person.
Not saying correlation is causation but...
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/242156681_4130140037084072_3029037993880126877_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=UchDV8WM-5MAX_vcBN8&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=9a2455a20d99edcdc64ac0dd4eff1009&oe=61480881)
It should be noted for those unfamiliar with CA geography, the low covid areas are where the high population density of the state is, a very, very blue state. These are also the areas where vaccine rates are highest and where mask mandates are followed for the most part. Also...CA is on pace to be the first state to be on the downside of the Delta surge because of our handling of it. I know that means dick to those who think the pandemic is a fallacy and a scam but it is what it is.
But the association with a political vote is at best misleading. I'm a very blue state as well, and not only are the causations not here, neither is the correlation. I know, I know, there's that one article out there, and it will persevere for those that need to see that vindication (not saying you, personally). But that doesn't make it any more right or any more effective in changing minds.
I posted it mostly for the timeliness of it, came across it literally 2 minutes before reading the above post. Sometimes I just can't resist myself.... ::)
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You think people could easily give up these comforts? I feel we got our answer with Covid...
Easily? No. Most people are still apathetic to their world, most know next to nothing about what is going on in their neighborhood.
I love it when one person speaks for most people.
Like when people assume unvaccinated people are anti-vax or republicans or Trump Supporters. They assume that person who is vocal is speaking for all the unvaccinated and that all the unvaccinated think like that vocal person.
Not saying correlation is causation but...
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/242156681_4130140037084072_3029037993880126877_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=UchDV8WM-5MAX_vcBN8&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=9a2455a20d99edcdc64ac0dd4eff1009&oe=61480881)
It should be noted for those unfamiliar with CA geography, the low covid areas are where the high population density of the state is, a very, very blue state. These are also the areas where vaccine rates are highest and where mask mandates are followed for the most part. Also...CA is on pace to be the first state to be on the downside of the Delta surge because of our handling of it. I know that means dick to those who think the pandemic is a fallacy and a scam but it is what it is.
But the association with a political vote is at best misleading. I'm a very blue state as well, and not only are the causations not here, neither is the correlation. I know, I know, there's that one article out there, and it will persevere for those that need to see that vindication (not saying you, personally). But that doesn't make it any more right or any more effective in changing minds.
I don't think you can deny the trends, buddy. Of course there's no direct link between antivaxxers and political party, but there's clearly a tremendous amount of overlap.
That chart also tells another story. The covid hotspots are not only outside of the more liberal parts of the state, they're also clear of the most densely populated areas (which also have an indirect relationship to political ideology). Los Angeles County has one third as many cases per capita as Tahema Country, despite having nearly 100x the population density. Not really relevant to the point, aside from another somewhat vague link between party and best practices, but quite interesting, I think. LA is actually doing better than I'd have suspected.
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^^ Oh yeah. The two indoor shows I've been to in the LA country area (the Forum and Microsoft Theater). They were pretty adamant that to get in, you need to wear a mask and provide proof of vaccine. Thankfully, I was able to do both. If anyone does not want to do that to go to shows, tough luck, I don't care about those guys.
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You think people could easily give up these comforts? I feel we got our answer with Covid...
Easily? No. Most people are still apathetic to their world, most know next to nothing about what is going on in their neighborhood.
I love it when one person speaks for most people.
Like when people assume unvaccinated people are anti-vax or republicans or Trump Supporters. They assume that person who is vocal is speaking for all the unvaccinated and that all the unvaccinated think like that vocal person.
Not saying correlation is causation but...
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/242156681_4130140037084072_3029037993880126877_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=UchDV8WM-5MAX_vcBN8&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=9a2455a20d99edcdc64ac0dd4eff1009&oe=61480881)
It should be noted for those unfamiliar with CA geography, the low covid areas are where the high population density of the state is, a very, very blue state. These are also the areas where vaccine rates are highest and where mask mandates are followed for the most part. Also...CA is on pace to be the first state to be on the downside of the Delta surge because of our handling of it. I know that means dick to those who think the pandemic is a fallacy and a scam but it is what it is.
But the association with a political vote is at best misleading. I'm a very blue state as well, and not only are the causations not here, neither is the correlation. I know, I know, there's that one article out there, and it will persevere for those that need to see that vindication (not saying you, personally). But that doesn't make it any more right or any more effective in changing minds.
I don't think you can deny the trends, buddy. Of course there's no direct link between antivaxxers and political party, but there's clearly a tremendous amount of overlap.
That chart also tells another story. The covid hotspots are not only outside of the more liberal parts of the state, they're also clear of the most densely populated areas (which also have an indirect relationship to political ideology). Los Angeles County has one third as many cases per capita as Tahema Country, despite having nearly 100x the population density. Not really relevant to the point, aside from another somewhat vague link between party and best practices, but quite interesting, I think. LA is actually doing better than I'd have suspected.
That's kind of what I was getting at, and heavily populated is a vast understatement. Between LA county and the 6 county greater bay area, you're looking at 20 million people. Shit, my county alone has almost 1.7 million. (Alameda, which contains Oakland)
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I don't think you can deny the trends, buddy. Of course there's no direct link between antivaxxers and political party, but there's clearly a tremendous amount of overlap.
That chart also tells another story. The covid hotspots are not only outside of the more liberal parts of the state, they're also clear of the most densely populated areas (which also have an indirect relationship to political ideology). Los Angeles County has one third as many cases per capita as Tahema Country, despite having nearly 100x the population density. Not really relevant to the point, aside from another somewhat vague link between party and best practices, but quite interesting, I think. LA is actually doing better than I'd have suspected.
And I'm not denying trends, but you, RJ and I all know that there are a LOT of people that are more than willing to jump from A to C (or, more likely, G or H) and make that direct link because it's easy and it justifies the worldview. It's been done, here. So if we're going to pound on Darkshade, rightly or wrongly, for confusing or misleading or outright wrong linkages, it's only fair to point out the depth of the linkages here. I get what RJ was doing and to be honest I felt a little bad pointing it out, but I'm hoping he's got a thick skin, since it's not personal. :) :)
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Just got home from the ER with my almost 4 year old son. He woke up at 2am, coughing hard and with labored breathing. My wife didn't sleep after 2am because she was so worried about his breathing....and today is her birthday too. He'd had a head cold this week that moved into his chest. His pediatrician sent us to the ER for a chest x-ray to verify if he had pneumonia.
I found myself wondering if he had covid during the drive to the hospital, as he was occasionally vomiting and was still struggling to breathe a little. I was terrified yet incredibly angry too, angry at anti-maskers/anti-vaxxers, thinking that if he had it, my daughter wouldn't be able to go to school for 10 days.
Thankfully, he tested negative for covid, RSV (brutal cold virus that kids get) and strep. It's just a bad chest cold, treatable with some steroids and an inhaler. I'm so relieved it's not covid, but the fact that now as a parent, we have to think about covid all the time when our kids get sick irritates me to no end. Jackass parents can stand on street corners protesting masks, while we're up sleepless at 2am, hoping to god our sick kid can breathe.
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Just got home from the ER with my almost 4 year old son. He woke up at 2am, coughing hard and with labored breathing. My wife didn't sleep after 2am because she was so worried about his breathing....and today is her birthday too. He'd had a head cold this week that moved into his chest. His pediatrician sent us to the ER for a chest x-ray to verify if he had pneumonia.
I found myself wondering if he had covid during the drive to the hospital, as he was occasionally vomiting and was still struggling to breathe a little. I was terrified yet incredibly angry too, angry at anti-maskers/anti-vaxxers, thinking that if he had it, my daughter wouldn't be able to go to school for 10 days.
Thankfully, he tested negative for covid, RSV (brutal cold virus that kids get) and strep. It's just a bad chest cold, treatable with some steroids and an inhaler. I'm so relieved it's not covid, but the fact that now as a parent, we have to think about covid all the time when our kids get sick irritates me to no end. Jackass parents can stand on street corners protesting masks, while we're up sleepless at 2am, hoping to god our sick kid can breathe.
Some parents also do not jump to those assumptions and start to become emotional to where they affect their overall thought process.
I find it more interesting how people are suddenly assuming the worse and then start thinking about it all and then begin forming emotions that are not even real, as such that you begin to place blame on others for something that you don't even know you have yet.
That to me tells me more about a persons thought process and mindset.
Which is okay to worry and think the worst. But don't be going and placing blame on others before you really do know for sure if it is what you assumed.
That's playing off emotions and coming to a conclusion before even getting the facts straightened out.
The news does this all the time when they have news stories that pull the emotional heartstrings of people to where they form these opinions and come to a conclusion before understanding and knowing all the facts of the news story.
Which is a part of the issue of misinformation being able to be spread and people believing it as factual information, especially when that wording and journalistic writing is really, really convincingly well thought out and portrayed.
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Interesting? Ben, how can a person not think of the worst during a pandemic? Of course it ran through Grappler's mind. That's being a human.
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^^ Oh yeah. The two indoor shows I've been to in the LA country area (the Forum and Microsoft Theater). They were pretty adamant that to get in, you need to wear a mask and provide proof of vaccine. Thankfully, I was able to do both. If anyone does not want to do that to go to shows, tough luck, I don't care about those guys.
Interesting. I hadn't thought about it til you pointed it out, but the show I saw in San Diego didn't ask for proof (I had a picture on my phone), and while most of us wore masks, a few did not. From my POV SoCal seemed to mostly be on the honor system, but they were far more, eh, honorable about it than what you see here.
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^^ Oh yeah. The two indoor shows I've been to in the LA country area (the Forum and Microsoft Theater). They were pretty adamant that to get in, you need to wear a mask and provide proof of vaccine. Thankfully, I was able to do both. If anyone does not want to do that to go to shows, tough luck, I don't care about those guys.
Interesting. I hadn't thought about it til you pointed it out, but the show I saw in San Diego didn't ask for proof (I had a picture on my phone), and while most of us wore masks, a few did not. From my POV SoCal seemed to mostly be on the honor system, but they were far more, eh, honorable about it than what you see here.
I haven't worn a mask at a single of the 14 concerts I've gone to so far this summer, 2 of which were smaller indoor venues. 1 was in LA, outdoors, some masks, but mostly no one wearing them. Proof of vaccine / negative test has been required in a little less than half of those 14 concerts. No masks nor vaccine/test is required for tonight's Megadeth/LoG concert either.
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Ben, unless you have children and watched them struggle to breathe, being completely helpless in the moment, you cannot comprehend the sheer terror of that experience. Im not even going to read any more of your bullshit post above.
When presented with the possibility that my child is sick with covid, that is exactly where my thoughts go. If you think that's wrong, you can just ___ off. Just yesterday in a neighboring suburb was a "medical freedom rally." Jackass parents in other suburbs are protesting covid mask mandates in schools ON SCHOOL WALKING ROUTES. Kids walking to school have to thread their way through parents with signs and shouting. That is not cool.
Yes, he is ok, despite being sick as hell. But to come down on me so hard is awful and shows me just what kind of person you really are.
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^^ Oh yeah. The two indoor shows I've been to in the LA country area (the Forum and Microsoft Theater). They were pretty adamant that to get in, you need to wear a mask and provide proof of vaccine. Thankfully, I was able to do both. If anyone does not want to do that to go to shows, tough luck, I don't care about those guys.
Interesting. I hadn't thought about it til you pointed it out, but the show I saw in San Diego didn't ask for proof (I had a picture on my phone), and while most of us wore masks, a few did not. From my POV SoCal seemed to mostly be on the honor system, but they were far more, eh, honorable about it than what you see here.
I haven't worn a mask at a single of the 14 concerts I've gone to so far this summer, 2 of which were smaller indoor venues. 1 was in LA, outdoors, some masks, but mostly no one wearing them. Proof of vaccine / negative test has been required in a little less than half of those 14 concerts. No masks nor vaccine/test is required for tonight's Megadeth/LoG concert either.
Why does that not surprise me. :lol
Of the three shows I've seen, one was a free-for-all, one was "wear a mask or GTFO" (same band, different city, actually), and one was 50 of us in the back room of a House of Blues, all in pretty close quarters. I'm actually seriously reconsidering catching Gojira on this tour just because I think it's going to be a little riskier than I'm up for. I like them and all, but not enough to be packed in with a thousand of their fans.
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^^ Oh yeah. The two indoor shows I've been to in the LA country area (the Forum and Microsoft Theater). They were pretty adamant that to get in, you need to wear a mask and provide proof of vaccine. Thankfully, I was able to do both. If anyone does not want to do that to go to shows, tough luck, I don't care about those guys.
Interesting. I hadn't thought about it til you pointed it out, but the show I saw in San Diego didn't ask for proof (I had a picture on my phone), and while most of us wore masks, a few did not. From my POV SoCal seemed to mostly be on the honor system, but they were far more, eh, honorable about it than what you see here.
It's hard to say really. In the LA area, masks for indoors is a must. Don't know if masks are required for venues like Hollywood Bowl and Greek Theater. At FivePoint Amphitheater in the OC, they are going by the honor system the last time I went there a few weeks back. Don't know if their policy will change in October, but I will be prepared anyway.
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I'm actually seriously reconsidering catching Gojira on this tour just because I think it's going to be a little riskier than I'm up for. I like them and all, but not enough to be packed in with a thousand of their fans.
Is proof of vaccine / test required? I'm pretty sure once October hits, it's mandatory for all venues in this area. My local ballroom will become vaccine only as well.
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Ben, unless you have children and watched them struggle to breathe, being completely helpless in the moment, you cannot comprehend the sheer terror of that experience. Im not even going to read any more of your bullshit post above.
When presented with the possibility that my child is sick with covid, that is exactly where my thoughts go. If you think that's wrong, you can just ___ off. Just yesterday in a neighboring suburb was a "medical freedom rally." Jackass parents in other suburbs are protesting covid mask mandates in schools ON SCHOOL WALKING ROUTES. Kids walking to school have to thread their way through parents with signs and shouting. That is not cool.
Yes, he is ok, despite being sick as hell. But to come down on me so hard is awful and shows me just what kind of person you really are.
I was going to back you up but you beat me to it. We parents just love it when a non-parent can possibly ever try and comprehend what being a parent is like and then have the gall to question our behavior when worried about our kids.
I would have been exactly like Grapp. No question.
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I'm actually seriously reconsidering catching Gojira on this tour just because I think it's going to be a little riskier than I'm up for. I like them and all, but not enough to be packed in with a thousand of their fans.
Is proof of vaccine / test required? I'm pretty sure once October hits, it's mandatory for all venues in this area. My local ballroom will become vaccine only as well.
Well, it's in your area that I'd likely be seeing them, so the calculus changes, yet again. I'm taking it one trip at a time, so I haven't gotten too far into the planning yet.
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I'm actually seriously reconsidering catching Gojira on this tour just because I think it's going to be a little riskier than I'm up for. I like them and all, but not enough to be packed in with a thousand of their fans.
Is proof of vaccine / test required? I'm pretty sure once October hits, it's mandatory for all venues in this area. My local ballroom will become vaccine only as well.
Well, it's in your area that I'd likely be seeing them, so the calculus changes, yet again. I'm taking it one trip at a time, so I haven't gotten too far into the planning yet.
Yup. Let's see if they make it into the country first. Avatar from Sweden had no issues, Unleash the Archers from Canada did.
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Ben, unless you have children and watched them struggle to breathe, being completely helpless in the moment, you cannot comprehend the sheer terror of that experience. Im not even going to read any more of your bullshit post above.
When presented with the possibility that my child is sick with covid, that is exactly where my thoughts go. If you think that's wrong, you can just ___ off. Just yesterday in a neighboring suburb was a "medical freedom rally." Jackass parents in other suburbs are protesting covid mask mandates in schools ON SCHOOL WALKING ROUTES. Kids walking to school have to thread their way through parents with signs and shouting. That is not cool.
Yes, he is ok, despite being sick as hell. But to come down on me so hard is awful and shows me just what kind of person you really are.
I was going to back you up but you beat me to it. We parents just love it when a non-parent can possibly ever try and comprehend what being a parent is like and then have the gall to question our behavior when worried about our kids.
I would have been exactly like Grapp. No question.
So just to be clear on this point, I'm on Grappler's side here. And I suppose by extension, yours as well. I think Ben's remark was somewhat incorrect, but not in the way y'all think. I mostly think it just wasn't really worth saying under the circumstances. Grappler's concerned about his kid, and I'm damn sure not going to knock him for that. Hope things turn out well. :tup
That said, much like we non-parents can't comprehend this and that and the other, parents seem to have an equally rough go at trying to see things from the non-parent perspective, which, believe it or not, is every bit as valid. Where I think Ben was wrong was that all parents "jump to those assumptions and start to become emotional to where they affect their overall thought process." As I've said before, parenthood makes people lose their fucking minds. Reason is quickly replaced by emotionalism. This is not a bad thing, per se. Parents become what they need to be. Just don't be so quick to dismiss what those of us looking in from the outside have to say. The dispassionate, alternative perspective is just as important, and just as valid.
In this case, it probably wasn't. Grappler's emotional response was quite valid. At the same time, sometimes people like us need to remind parents that maybe $400 on a bulletproof backpack for you kid isn't as wise as dropping the same 4 bills into an investment account for him.
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I previously brought up the idea of purposely infecting kids with covid, as my pediatrician friend actually mentioned to me as an idea not that I personally was championing for it, and while not a parent, I kind of agreed with what some here said in that they cannot fathom purposely sickening their children. It's easy for me to suggest, but not easy for me to understand those feelings.
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Ben, unless you have children and watched them struggle to breathe, being completely helpless in the moment, you cannot comprehend the sheer terror of that experience.
I can absolutely relate to this.
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I'm not going to pile on except to say that the lack of empathy in some people is jaw dropping.
Grappler, I hope your boy recovers quickly and good on you for getting him the help he so obviously needed.
Right now, my sister is horribly ill with almost all of the hallmark symptoms of Covid and yet tested negative for Covid yesterday. She is fully vaccinated. I'm exceedingly worried, her blood pressure is sky high and she can hardly breathe. I'm guessing viral pneumonia as she's been on antibiotics for a sinus infection for over 2 weeks now. I pretty much had to bolster her up to not take it if her provider tries to shuffle her out the door with simply another Covid test (which is what it sounded like from her text). I don't want her in the hospital but I also don't want her to have a stroke or a heart attack at home because the hospital is full up of Covid with no room for anything else.
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You think people could easily give up these comforts? I feel we got our answer with Covid...
Easily? No. Most people are still apathetic to their world, most know next to nothing about what is going on in their neighborhood.
I love it when one person speaks for most people.
It is my opinion, but do you really think most people are engaged in politics, the news, and world events? Even if everyone you personally know is? Even if they get their butt off the couch to vote once every 4 years in a national election (because we know most don't vote in every local and state election that they can)
Most voting age Americans didn't vote in 2016. In 2020, the two leading candidates for President got the most votes ever in history, so more people voted than ever in US history. BUT many will admit they only voted blue to get rid of the guy running red, and did not base their decision on policy, facts, or the personal histories of those running for office. "I voted for the really racist guy to get rid of the other really racist guy" is apathetic to me. Even the ballots themselves, many were just votes for the Executive, blank for every other candidate running for different positions. At least that is what we've been told.
Voting is an illusion to make you think you have a choice, as long as it's between the two major parties that play ball with each other, cause most of the problems are country and world face if not do nothing to help, are in bed with all the same corporations and pharmaceutical companies, and control the voting systems in each state.
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Actually, my first mistake was reading and responding to a post of Darkshade's.
Searched him on Duck Duck Go, first page there syas he's full of shit too.
Yeah, that's exactly where I pulled that quote from. Joke's on you Darkshade, I don't trust the Google either ... just used it as a ubiquitous verb.
It's the outright dismissal of my post and the content posted because someone did a google search on the doctor, when those people have no medical degrees I am aware of, that is a problem. Search engine companies, news media outlets, and politicians also have no medical degrees either
Do YOU have a medical degree? By your own logic, I shouldn't pay attention to the information you're spreading.
Duck Duck Go is just as untrustworthy, and tend to give you similar results as Google and Bing does.
No, I don't have a medical degree, which is why I posted a link to an interview with someone who does.
Don't shoot the messenger, they say. Don't shoot the message, either.
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You think people could easily give up these comforts? I feel we got our answer with Covid...
Easily? No. Most people are still apathetic to their world, most know next to nothing about what is going on in their neighborhood.
I love it when one person speaks for most people.
Like when people assume unvaccinated people are anti-vax or republicans or Trump Supporters. They assume that person who is vocal is speaking for all the unvaccinated and that all the unvaccinated think like that vocal person.
Not saying correlation is causation but...
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/242156681_4130140037084072_3029037993880126877_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=UchDV8WM-5MAX_vcBN8&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=9a2455a20d99edcdc64ac0dd4eff1009&oe=61480881)
It should be noted for those unfamiliar with CA geography, the low covid areas are where the high population density of the state is, a very, very blue state. These are also the areas where vaccine rates are highest and where mask mandates are followed for the most part. Also...CA is on pace to be the first state to be on the downside of the Delta surge because of our handling of it. I know that means dick to those who think the pandemic is a fallacy and a scam but it is what it is.
But the association with a political vote is at best misleading. I'm a very blue state as well, and not only are the causations not here, neither is the correlation. I know, I know, there's that one article out there, and it will persevere for those that need to see that vindication (not saying you, personally). But that doesn't make it any more right or any more effective in changing minds.
I don't think you can deny the trends, buddy. Of course there's no direct link between antivaxxers and political party, but there's clearly a tremendous amount of overlap.
That chart also tells another story. The covid hotspots are not only outside of the more liberal parts of the state, they're also clear of the most densely populated areas (which also have an indirect relationship to political ideology). Los Angeles County has one third as many cases per capita as Tahema Country, despite having nearly 100x the population density. Not really relevant to the point, aside from another somewhat vague link between party and best practices, but quite interesting, I think. LA is actually doing better than I'd have suspected.
That's kind of what I was getting at, and heavily populated is a vast understatement. Between LA county and the 6 county greater bay area, you're looking at 20 million people. Shit, my county alone has almost 1.7 million. (Alameda, which contains Oakland)
Just throwing it out there, but it could also be that most of the deaths have occurred in those more populated areas of the US by now, like CA, NJ, NY, Michigan, the places where all those most susceptible to the virus, like old people, got covid in 2020 and died, many due to the tyrannical incompetent policies of those state's governors, which contributed to the high death rate in the US in total early on in the pandemic.
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Yeah but what Lonestar is pointing out is L.A. which is extremely populated is doing a good job with the covid and many liberals live in L A.
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Haven’t had time to read back over the last couple of pages but I came here to say that king county in Washington just announced that they will be requiring proof of vaccination or a negative Covid test for any restaurant, theater, or entertainment facility.
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Yeah but what Lonestar is pointing out is L.A. which is extremely populated is doing a good job with the covid and many liberals live in L A.
but if most of all the most vulnerable are dead, that leaves the rest of the population that has a 99.99% chance of survival from covid, with or without vaccines, masks, and social distancing.
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Haven’t had time to read back over the last couple of pages but I came here to say that king county in Washington just announced that they will be requiring proof of vaccination or a negative Covid test for any restaurant, theater, or entertainment facility.
See, these are the policies in question, coming from politicians who are not medical professionals, taking recommendations from those are BUT who profit from the jabs and say things like "don't take Ivermectin, it's horse medicine!" even though other countries use it to great effect against covid. Those with the vaccine are just as likely to spread the virus, if not more so, as those with natural immunity.
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Ben, unless you have children and watched them struggle to breathe, being completely helpless in the moment, you cannot comprehend the sheer terror of that experience. Im not even going to read any more of your bullshit post above.
When presented with the possibility that my child is sick with covid, that is exactly where my thoughts go. If you think that's wrong, you can just ___ off. Just yesterday in a neighboring suburb was a "medical freedom rally." Jackass parents in other suburbs are protesting covid mask mandates in schools ON SCHOOL WALKING ROUTES. Kids walking to school have to thread their way through parents with signs and shouting. That is not cool.
Yes, he is ok, despite being sick as hell. But to come down on me so hard is awful and shows me just what kind of person you really are.
Grappler, I am very sorry and did not mean nor intend for my response to come off the way it did. I understand it came off as pretty inappropriate and I apologise for that. No harm intended what so ever.
I am glad your son is okay and doing well and that it isn't Covid-19 and your worries were diminished.
And I have seen a little baby try and breathe. That was my brother whom passed away as a baby a few months after having stopped breathing and turning blue. I was there by his side when it happened. He ended up having a heart disorder when he was diagnosed and they couldn't do much about it.
I understand how emotional it can be. And for that I do have sympathy for anyone that has a worry for a child.
Ben, unless you have children and watched them struggle to breathe, being completely helpless in the moment, you cannot comprehend the sheer terror of that experience. Im not even going to read any more of your bullshit post above.
When presented with the possibility that my child is sick with covid, that is exactly where my thoughts go. If you think that's wrong, you can just ___ off. Just yesterday in a neighboring suburb was a "medical freedom rally." Jackass parents in other suburbs are protesting covid mask mandates in schools ON SCHOOL WALKING ROUTES. Kids walking to school have to thread their way through parents with signs and shouting. That is not cool.
Yes, he is ok, despite being sick as hell. But to come down on me so hard is awful and shows me just what kind of person you really are.
I was going to back you up but you beat me to it. We parents just love it when a non-parent can possibly ever try and comprehend what being a parent is like and then have the gall to question our behavior when worried about our kids.
I would have been exactly like Grapp. No question.
So just to be clear on this point, I'm on Grappler's side here. And I suppose by extension, yours as well. I think Ben's remark was somewhat incorrect, but not in the way y'all think. I mostly think it just wasn't really worth saying under the circumstances. Grappler's concerned about his kid, and I'm damn sure not going to knock him for that. Hope things turn out well. :tup
That said, much like we non-parents can't comprehend this and that and the other, parents seem to have an equally rough go at trying to see things from the non-parent perspective, which, believe it or not, is every bit as valid. Where I think Ben was wrong was that all parents "jump to those assumptions and start to become emotional to where they affect their overall thought process." As I've said before, parenthood makes people lose their fucking minds. Reason is quickly replaced by emotionalism. This is not a bad thing, per se. Parents become what they need to be. Just don't be so quick to dismiss what those of us looking in from the outside have to say. The dispassionate, alternative perspective is just as important, and just as valid.
In this case, it probably wasn't. Grappler's emotional response was quite valid. At the same time, sometimes people like us need to remind parents that maybe $400 on a bulletproof backpack for you kid isn't as wise as dropping the same 4 bills into an investment account for him.
This is what I intended to present. And I agree with you Barto. It's not all parents. As with all things, those are the parents that are most vocal about it.
It's something that does happen and sometimes those protective emotions turn into physical fights. We had a YAFL football game here recently where the parents ended up in an big brawl. The news stated it was because of a hard hit and people are assuming the kid whom tackled the other kid also kicked him in the head after tackling him. It was so intense that they had to have a YAFL parents committee meeting take place on what to do about those situations.
I just find it interesting how emotions can play into conclusions and decision making that can have drastic consequences.
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No offense to anyone with kids, but the flu kills more children each year than covid has in all its existence. That is not my opinion.
Take care of your kids, but let's stop letting the fear porn control our actions.
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Yeah but what Lonestar is pointing out is L.A. which is extremely populated is doing a good job with the covid and many liberals live in L A.
but if most of all the most vulnerable are dead, that leaves the rest of the population that has a 99.99% chance of survival from covid, with or without vaccines, masks, and social distancing.
So you are saying you're good with 4.55 million deaths. Got it.
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Thanks to everyone for your support.
It's just so irritating to know that there are people out there that think that this is a joke and parade a 99% survival rate around, as if that makes any difference. To watch my son have covid-like symptoms at the age of 3, and not be able to help him really affected me. It luckily turned out to be just a bad chest cold, but you don't know that in the moment and you start thinking about what things might be like in a few days. Will they be better or worse? Will I be able to go into work? Will my daughter have to stay home from school for 10 days and get covid tested yet again?
No offense to anyone with kids, but the flu kills more children each year than covid has in all its existence. That is not my opinion.
Take care of your kids, but let's stop letting the fear porn control our actions.
Which is why my kids get a flu shot. And once again, kids covid vaccines aren't yet approved. So they have to walk through life unprotected. We can't keep them home and in a bubble - they have school, and while they wear masks, they're kids. They share germs like crazy. If we can try to keep covid out of schools by keeping kids healthier and covid-free at home (i.e., parents need to wear masks and get vaccinated!) then that isn't as much of an issue.
Which is why it's frustrating to see such fervent support for the Unmask Our Kids campaigns against schools. I'm trying to keep covid out of my household, yet I have to send my kid into the lion's den of germs every day, knowing that there have been a number of positive cases at her school.
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Correct. Don't keep kids in a bubble. Get them exposed to germs and make their immune systems strong. That's how you get their bodies to fight off infectious diseases naturally, and without foreign substances. The arrogance to think you're going to keep an airborne virus out of your home, short of covering your property with an air tight bubble, and making your kids walk around in a space suit.
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Yeah but what Lonestar is pointing out is L.A. which is extremely populated is doing a good job with the covid and many liberals live in L A.
but if most of all the most vulnerable are dead, that leaves the rest of the population that has a 99.99% chance of survival from covid, with or without vaccines, masks, and social distancing.
So you are saying you're good with 4.55 million deaths. Got it.
Of course not, but wouldn't reducing the human population be a big help in fighting man-made climate change?
It's mostly unvaxxed dying right? Most are right winger Q nuts right? Doctors should deny them if they get sick and go to the hospital right?
Why hate them then care about their health?
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That's crazy talk. I don't want anyone to die. I would like common sense though.
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No offense to anyone with kids, but the flu kills more children each year than covid has in all its existence. That is not my opinion.
Take care of your kids, but let's stop letting the fear porn control our actions.
Yes, it is your opinion, not based on facts or studies
Flu deaths in the States 2019-20 24,000 to 62,000 pre Covid (even fewer last year)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%932020_United_States_flu_season#:~:text=The%20Centers%20for%20Disease%20Control,and%2024%2C000%20to%2062%2C000%20deaths.
2017-18 flu deaths in the States approx 61,000 preCovid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%932018_United_States_flu_season
covid in the States.... over 688,000 deaths since March 2020
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Where do you get your so called facts?
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(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.904104958.7453/farp,small,wall_texture,product,750x1000.jpg)
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Covid. 4.55 million in 18 months.
Flu is 600,000 a year. 18 months is 900,000.
This is worldwide.
4.55 million
900,000
5 times deadlier.
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That's crazy talk. I don't want anyone to die. I would like common sense though.
Humanity has been taking crazy pills for the last 19 months.
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Yes. I see it in your posts daily.
I see you skipped over the stats.
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No offense to anyone with kids, but the flu kills more children each year than covid has in all its existence. That is not my opinion.
Take care of your kids, but let's stop letting the fear porn control our actions.
Yes, it is your opinion, not based on facts or studies
Flu deaths in the States 2019-20 24,000 to 62,000 pre Covid (even fewer last year)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%932020_United_States_flu_season#:~:text=The%20Centers%20for%20Disease%20Control,and%2024%2C000%20to%2062%2C000%20deaths.
2017-18 flu deaths in the States approx 61,000 preCovid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%932018_United_States_flu_season
covid in the States.... over 688,000 deaths since March 2020
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Where do you get your so called facts?
Not from wikipedia, where anyone can edit the articles, that's for sure.
This appears to be about all deaths, I was talking about pediatric deaths.
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Yes. I see it in your posts daily.
I see you skipped over the stats.
Which stats? The ones I quote above about all covid and flu deaths, and not pediatric deaths which is what was being discussed a few posts earlier?
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Yes. I see it in your posts daily.
I see you skipped over the stats.
Seeking truth and rationality is not 'taking crazy pills'
Saying 'unvaxxed' people should be denied services at a hospital is crazy.
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I'm not saying that though. Even if they are taxing hospitals. But those who don't vac are the ones we should look sideways at. Just like those who do not vac their children.
I don't mock them but I think this thought process is not smart.
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I'm not saying that though. Even if they are taxing hospitals. But those who don't vac are the ones we should look sideways at. Just like those who do not vac their children.
I don't mock them but I think this thought process is not smart.
Not saying you are, but many people are. The news media is even pushing this idea. It is criminal.
Where would the line be drawn?
Got lung cancer? Sorry, you smoke cigarettes.
Got heart disease? Sorry, you ate too many Big Macs.
Cigarettes and Big Macs are approved for sale by the FDA, at least the ingredients in them are. Covid vaccines currently are not approved, only EUA.
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Yes that is crazy. So is not getting the vaccine. So how about a compromise. I bet you can't do that.
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Yes that is crazy. So is not getting the vaccine. So how about a compromise. I bet you can't do that.
but what if I have natural immunity that is stronger than the vaccine that is currently waning in effectiveness?
What if I have natural immunity where I don't spread the disease any more than someone who got jabbed, twice?
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No offense to anyone with kids, but the flu kills more children each year than covid has in all its existence. That is not my opinion.
Take care of your kids, but let's stop letting the fear porn control our actions.
Yes, it is your opinion, not based on facts or studies
Flu deaths in the States 2019-20 24,000 to 62,000 pre Covid (even fewer last year)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%932020_United_States_flu_season#:~:text=The%20Centers%20for%20Disease%20Control,and%2024%2C000%20to%2062%2C000%20deaths.
2017-18 flu deaths in the States approx 61,000 preCovid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%932018_United_States_flu_season
covid in the States.... over 688,000 deaths since March 2020
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Where do you get your so called facts?
What are we comparing?
Flu deaths versus covid deaths?
Flu deaths among children versus covid deaths among children?
I had assumed that darkshade was talking about the latter.
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Yes that is crazy. So is not getting the vaccine. So how about a compromise. I bet you can't do that.
but what if I have natural immunity that is stronger than the vaccine that is currently waning in effectiveness?
What if I have natural immunity where I don't spread the disease any more than someone who got jabbed, twice?
For 8 months and not with the variants. So for us vaccinated, we can get a booster shot. You can't unless you get it again which you have a better chance to contract.
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Yes that is crazy. So is not getting the vaccine. So how about a compromise. I bet you can't do that.
but what if I have natural immunity that is stronger than the vaccine that is currently waning in effectiveness?
What if I have natural immunity where I don't spread the disease any more than someone who got jabbed, twice?
For 8 months and not with the variants. So for us vaccinated, we can get a booster shot. You can't unless you get it again which you have a better chance to contract.
Natural immunity apparently lasts longer, than the vax, and last I looked up, getting it again means it will be much less severe than the first time.
Anecdotal, but I haven't been sick since Feb 2020, and I know people who got jabbed and have been sick 2-3 times since. I've also read (and heard from doctors online) that the virus figures out how to bypass the vaccines, making the vaccinated the super spreaders.
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The flu comes back every year and we are not immune. Civid is 5 times more dangerous. You like rolling the dice?
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That's crazy talk. I don't want anyone to die. I would like common sense though.
Hey, hey, now, don't go infringing on their personal responsibility. :lol
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The flu comes back every year and we are not immune. Civid is 5 times more dangerous. You like rolling the dice?
Yeah, I heard you don't want to catch the Civid.
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The flu comes back every year and we are not immune. Civid is 5 times more dangerous. You like rolling the dice?
I don't get flu shots and never get the flu.
I had covid in feb 2020, first time I've been sick in almost 10 years, and haven't been sick since, been to 7 concerts this year (all outdoors, but still)
No one has gotten covid after being in my presence. People I know who got sick had no physical contact with me days and weeks prior to their infection.
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Yeah but you left out something. I've never got sick but I did get covid. So it can happen again with a stronger variant.
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Yes. I see it in your posts daily.
I see you skipped over the stats.
Seeking truth and rationality is not 'taking crazy pills'
Saying 'unvaxxed' people should be denied services at a hospital is crazy.
Since I'm one of the people suggesting something similar to that, I'll chime in. My stance has been that hospitals should limit ICU space to leave beds in reserve for people who aren't there voluntarily. This isn't spite, or some misguided concept of eugenics (although voluntary eugenics is better referred to as Darwinism). This is basic resource allocation. Seeing somebody with a treatable condition die because antivaxxers are using up the available healthcare pisses me off. It's not "personal responsibility" if other people have to pay for your outcomes.
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That's crazy talk. I don't want anyone to die. I would like common sense though.
Hey, hey, now, don't go infringing on their personal responsibility. :lol
Tribalism is a dangerous mentality to have. I think the Germans engaged in it one time. Didn't work out well for them.
I think we already deduced that it's not all Republicans declining to be vaxxed. In fact, you can easily look up what groups of people are unvaxxed by race.
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Yeah but you left out something. I've never got sick but I did get covid. So it can happen again with a stronger variant.
Covid is novel, though. Everyone's going to get it at least once, your body needs a chance to identify it so it can fight it off in the future. Naturally is better, stronger, faster, harder on those germs.
I've had the flu before, but not in a long, long time.
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Yes. I see it in your posts daily.
I see you skipped over the stats.
Seeking truth and rationality is not 'taking crazy pills'
Saying 'unvaxxed' people should be denied services at a hospital is crazy.
Since I'm one of the people suggesting something similar to that, I'll chime in. My stance has been that hospitals should limit ICU space to leave beds in reserve for people who aren't there voluntarily. This isn't spite, or some misguided concept of eugenics (although voluntary eugenics is better referred to as Darwinism). This is basic resource allocation. Seeing somebody with a treatable condition die because antivaxxers are using up the available healthcare pisses me off. It's not "personal responsibility" if other people have to pay for your outcomes.
Amen, brother. There should be a limit on Covid beds, with priority going to vaccinated people. No one with any other ailment should be turned away because of some unvaccinated hack.
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When it's killed 5 times more in the same timeframe as the flu it's not novel. It's like you only care about yourself and don't have empathy to others.
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Yes. I see it in your posts daily.
I see you skipped over the stats.
Seeking truth and rationality is not 'taking crazy pills'
Saying 'unvaxxed' people should be denied services at a hospital is crazy.
Since I'm one of the people suggesting something similar to that, I'll chime in. My stance has been that hospitals should limit ICU space to leave beds in reserve for people who aren't there voluntarily. This isn't spite, or some misguided concept of eugenics (although voluntary eugenics is better referred to as Darwinism). This is basic resource allocation. Seeing somebody with a treatable condition die because antivaxxers are using up the available healthcare pisses me off. It's not "personal responsibility" if other people have to pay for your outcomes.
But what about the makeshift hospitals that were created specifically for covid patient overflow in densely populated areas? Did hospital administrators and state governments give up on that idea because now the pharma donors for our 'elected leaders' got their drugs into the public sphere via EUA?
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When it's killed 5 times more in the same timeframe as the flu it's not novel. It's like you only care about yourself and don't have empathy to others.
As I said, I got it in Feb 2020, so it was novel then.
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Yeah but you left out something. I've never got sick but I did get covid. So it can happen again with a stronger variant.
Covid is novel, though. Everyone's going to get it at least once, your body needs a chance to identify it so it can fight it off in the future. Naturally is better, stronger, faster, harder on those germs.
I've had the flu before, but not in a long, long time.
Actually, I posted a study a couple of weeks ago that suggests this isn't correct. Natural immunity reacts only to the specific bug you had. Variants are new, foreign invaders and your immune system has to start from scratch. The vaccines are engineered to target a characteristic specific to Covid in general, and seems to produce a response to all variants that contain that particular characteristic.
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Hospitals do not have the manpower to staff the hospital nevermind a new branch. This is common knowledge throughout the work industry.
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Yes. I see it in your posts daily.
I see you skipped over the stats.
Seeking truth and rationality is not 'taking crazy pills'
Saying 'unvaxxed' people should be denied services at a hospital is crazy.
Since I'm one of the people suggesting something similar to that, I'll chime in. My stance has been that hospitals should limit ICU space to leave beds in reserve for people who aren't there voluntarily. This isn't spite, or some misguided concept of eugenics (although voluntary eugenics is better referred to as Darwinism). This is basic resource allocation. Seeing somebody with a treatable condition die because antivaxxers are using up the available healthcare pisses me off. It's not "personal responsibility" if other people have to pay for your outcomes.
But what about the makeshift hospitals that were created specifically for covid patient overflow in densely populated areas? Did hospital administrators and state governments give up on that idea because now the pharma donors for our 'elected leaders' got their drugs into the public sphere via EUA?
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/54ed1930e4b0360a4990e146/1594658211596-U27P04GNYM2MZY1Y7K2J/IMG_0748.gif)
Also, if you're going to go that route, address my question about why the entire planet is going along with this conspiracy.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56501.msg2809936#msg2809936
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When it's killed 5 times more in the same timeframe as the flu it's not novel. It's like you only care about yourself and don't have empathy to others.
When it comes to my health, of course I care about myself, just like everyone else should care about their own health. I empathize with anyone who is immune-compromised, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Those people should do everything they can to avoid human contact until this is is hopefully over one day. Unfortunately for them, vaxxed people can still transmit the virus as much as unvaxxed with or without masks, so what difference would it make for them if I got jabbed or not?
I care about the health of people around me as well. Many I know have gotten the jab. Good for them. They did what they felt is best for themselves. Why should I risk long-term health ailments by taking the vax when people I don't know personally couldn't give two shits about me otherwise, and won't care if/when I have health problems due to this experimental procedure down the road? Life is full of risks.
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Hospitals do not have the manpower to staff the hospital nevermind a new branch. This is common knowledge throughout the work industry.
Makes sense since so many nurses have quit since the pandemic started, for one reason or another. They were going to do it in NYC, for example, but the overflow never happened.
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Yes. I see it in your posts daily.
I see you skipped over the stats.
Seeking truth and rationality is not 'taking crazy pills'
Saying 'unvaxxed' people should be denied services at a hospital is crazy.
Since I'm one of the people suggesting something similar to that, I'll chime in. My stance has been that hospitals should limit ICU space to leave beds in reserve for people who aren't there voluntarily. This isn't spite, or some misguided concept of eugenics (although voluntary eugenics is better referred to as Darwinism). This is basic resource allocation. Seeing somebody with a treatable condition die because antivaxxers are using up the available healthcare pisses me off. It's not "personal responsibility" if other people have to pay for your outcomes.
But what about the makeshift hospitals that were created specifically for covid patient overflow in densely populated areas? Did hospital administrators and state governments give up on that idea because now the pharma donors for our 'elected leaders' got their drugs into the public sphere via EUA?
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/54ed1930e4b0360a4990e146/1594658211596-U27P04GNYM2MZY1Y7K2J/IMG_0748.gif)
Also, if you're going to go that route, address my question about why the entire planet is going along with this conspiracy.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56501.msg2809936#msg2809936
I didn't shift goal posts. I offered an option that was on the table in the beginning of the pandemic but doesn't seem to be now.
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Hospitals do not have the manpower to staff the hospital nevermind a new branch. This is common knowledge throughout the work industry.
Makes sense since so many nurses have quit since the pandemic started, for one reason or another. They were going to do it in NYC, for example, but the overflow never happened.
Stress made them quit and the overflow is real. Not imaginary.
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Also, if you're going to go that route, address my question about why the entire planet is going along with this conspiracy.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56501.msg2809936#msg2809936
What conspiracy? To get everyone jabbed? Money? Power? NWO and Build Back Better? (which are both descendant agendas from "Third Reich".. don't believe me? That's not my problem. I've known about that crap for years now.)
Some countries are choosing not to use the vaccine, instead use Ivermectin or HCQ for early treatment and avoid being hooked up to a ventilator.
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Hospitals do not have the manpower to staff the hospital nevermind a new branch. This is common knowledge throughout the work industry.
Makes sense since so many nurses have quit since the pandemic started, for one reason or another. They were going to do it in NYC, for example, but the overflow never happened.
Stress made them quit and the overflow is real. Not imaginary.
Some, sure. Many quit because they don't want the experimental government dope injected into their bodies.
What was stated as imaginary?? The makeshift hospital built last year in NYC wasn't needed.
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Ivermectin? Yeah, third world countries desperate got to extremes.
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Hospitals do not have the manpower to staff the hospital nevermind a new branch. This is common knowledge throughout the work industry.
Makes sense since so many nurses have quit since the pandemic started, for one reason or another. They were going to do it in NYC, for example, but the overflow never happened.
Stress made them quit and the overflow is real. Not imaginary.
Some, sure. Many quit because they don't want the experimental government dope injected into their bodies.
What was stated as imaginary?? The makeshift hospital built last year in NYC wasn't needed.
What's many? 5%
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Ivermectin? Yeah, third world countries desperate got to extremes.
Japan is a third world country?
and you do know WHY 3rd world countries aren't getting the vaccines... right?
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Ivermectin? Yeah, third world countries desperate got to extremes.
Japan is a third world country?
and you do know WHY 3rd world countries aren't getting the vaccines... right?
Isn’t Japan over 50% vaccinated?
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Hospitals do not have the manpower to staff the hospital nevermind a new branch. This is common knowledge throughout the work industry.
Makes sense since so many nurses have quit since the pandemic started, for one reason or another. They were going to do it in NYC, for example, but the overflow never happened.
Stress made them quit and the overflow is real. Not imaginary.
Some, sure. Many quit because they don't want the experimental government dope injected into their bodies.
What was stated as imaginary?? The makeshift hospital built last year in NYC wasn't needed.
What's many? 5%
5% can be a big number considering how many hospitals there are in the US.
Not to mention the number of med students who changed their minds.
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Ivermectin? Yeah, third world countries desperate got to extremes.
Japan is a third world country?
and you do know WHY 3rd world countries aren't getting the vaccines... right?
Isn’t Japan over 50% vaccinated?
Isn't the US?
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Ivermectin? Yeah, third world countries desperate got to extremes.
Japan is a third world country?
and you do know WHY 3rd world countries aren't getting the vaccines... right?
Nope.
https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/japan-has-not-approved-ivermectin-as-a-covid-treatment-and-its-still-using-the-moderna-vaccine/
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I didn't shift goal posts. I offered an option that was on the table in the beginning of the pandemic but doesn't seem to be now.
You were implying that it's not necessary because the conspiracy is working. As has been stated, there are other reasons why they're not a valid option. Moreover, the fact is that people are dying, and people are compromising medical outcomes because of a lack of available resources.
However, I'm A-OK with your suggestion. Setup makeshift MASH units in parking lots and treat unvaccinated Covid patients with any resources in excess of what's necessary for less voluntary cases. I think we've reached a fair compromise. :tup
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Ivermectin? Yeah, third world countries desperate got to extremes.
Japan is a third world country?
and you do know WHY 3rd world countries aren't getting the vaccines... right?
Nope.
https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/japan-has-not-approved-ivermectin-as-a-covid-treatment-and-its-still-using-the-moderna-vaccine/
They're looking into it, more than can be said for US.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/Tokyo-considers-trials-of-parasite-drug-for-COVID-19 (https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/Tokyo-considers-trials-of-parasite-drug-for-COVID-19)
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Trials and approving and using is a big difference. Why would you take that over an approved vaccine?
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I didn't shift goal posts. I offered an option that was on the table in the beginning of the pandemic but doesn't seem to be now.
You were implying that it's not necessary because the conspiracy is working. As has been stated, there are other reasons why they're not a valid option. Moreover, the fact is that people are dying, and people are compromising medical outcomes because of a lack of available resources.
However, I'm A-OK with your suggestion. Setup makeshift MASH units in parking lots and treat unvaccinated Covid patients with any resources in excess of what's necessary for less voluntary cases. I think we've reached a fair compromise. :tup
Never needed because so many deaths occurred in nursing homes in these densely populated areas like NYC, LA, Detroit, to make the death count seem worse for the US (not coincidentally for political purposes)
As long as they got the same resources in the parking lots, as they do inside, don't bother my ass. All is not lost on DTF ;D
but I think hospitals being "overflowed" is just another Big Lie from the government/media establishment.
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Trials and approving and using is a big difference. Why would you take that over an approved vaccine?
What covid vaccine is approved by anyone with authority to do so? Covid vaccines are not FDA approved, not any available to the public.
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Trials and approving and using is a big difference. Why would you take that over an approved vaccine?
What covid vaccine is approved by anyone with authority to do so? Covid vaccines are not FDA approved, not any available to the public.
Come on man.
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine#:~:text=Today%2C%20the%20U.S.%20Food%20and,years%20of%20age%20and%20older.
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Duck Duck Go is just as untrustworthy, and tend to give you similar results as Google and Bing does.
Which search engines do you trust?
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Duck Duck Go is just as untrustworthy, and tend to give you similar results as Google and Bing does.
Which search engines do you trust?
None, really.
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Actually, my first mistake was reading and responding to a post of Darkshade's.
Searched him on Duck Duck Go, first page there syas he's full of shit too.
Yeah, that's exactly where I pulled that quote from. Joke's on you Darkshade, I don't trust the Google either ... just used it as a ubiquitous verb.
It's the outright dismissal of my post and the content posted because someone did a google search on the doctor, when those people have no medical degrees I am aware of, that is a problem. Search engine companies, news media outlets, and politicians also have no medical degrees either
Do YOU have a medical degree? By your own logic, I shouldn't pay attention to the information you're spreading.
Duck Duck Go is just as untrustworthy, and tend to give you similar results as Google and Bing does.
No, I don't have a medical degree, which is why I posted a link to an interview with someone who does.
Don't shoot the messenger, they say. Don't shoot the message, either.
Well then don’t shoot me as a messenger, or my message. I simply posted a quote of an independent assessment of the good Doctor’s accuracy of claims and statements.
Duck Duck Go is just as untrustworthy, and tend to give you similar results as Google and Bing does.
Which search engines do you trust?
None, really.
Then where do you find your information, and how do you decide what/whom to trust? Im genuinely and sincerely curious here
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No offense to anyone with kids, but the flu kills more children each year than covid has in all its existence. That is not my opinion.
Take care of your kids, but let's stop letting the fear porn control our actions.
Source please? Not that I don’t totally trust your claims, but you already confirmed you’re not a medical professional so .... :biggrin:
Also, just imagine how many more deaths it would be without flu vaccines!
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The flu comes back every year and we are not immune. Civid is 5 times more dangerous. You like rolling the dice?
I don't get flu shots and never get the flu..
Just so I beat Stads to it .... correlation is not causation. I’ve never been in a car accident in my life ... I must not need to ever wear a seatbelt.
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No offense to anyone with kids, but the flu kills more children each year than covid has in all its existence. That is not my opinion.
Take care of your kids, but let's stop letting the fear porn control our actions.
Source please? Not that I don’t totally trust your claims, but you already confirmed you’re not a medical professional so .... :biggrin:
Also, just imagine how many more deaths it would be without flu vaccines!
I've never said that I'm against vaccines.
Just use Google.
More Dore
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eTIW3IfVuM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eTIW3IfVuM)
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But you don’t trust Google.
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I’ll be honest, I had no idea who Jimmy Dore was, so I looked it up (hope you don’t mind that I used Google - Alta Vista was taking too long to refresh). A comedian!?!? Seriously? I take it I can rebut with clips from The Daily Show, and you’ll receive those as legitimate?
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But you don’t trust Google.
I don't. You have to dig through the mud to find the pearl, so to speak. You have to look for conflicting information or things that don't come up on each search engine. I find some stuff easier on one, but not the other. Depends on the search.
Google is the worst. Then Bing. Then DDG. Personally, I still stick with Ask Jeeves. I hear the right uses Gab.
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Wow, there’s a search brand I haven’t heard reference since the Bush presidency. You know they’re owned by the same company that owns The Daily Beast? How can they be trusted??
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Wow, there’s a search brand I haven’t heard reference since the Bush presidency. You know they’re owned by the same company that owns The Daily Beast? How can they be trusted??
LOL I don't go on ask jeeves. It was a joke.
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Trials and approving and using is a big difference. Why would you take that over an approved vaccine?
What covid vaccine is approved by anyone with authority to do so? Covid vaccines are not FDA approved, not any available to the public.
Come on man.
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine#:~:text=Today%2C%20the%20U.S.%20Food%20and,years%20of%20age%20and%20older.
I want to go back to this part here and want to see Darkshade comment on this.
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Trials and approving and using is a big difference. Why would you take that over an approved vaccine?
What covid vaccine is approved by anyone with authority to do so? Covid vaccines are not FDA approved, not any available to the public.
Come on man.
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine#:~:text=Today%2C%20the%20U.S.%20Food%20and,years%20of%20age%20and%20older.
I want to go back to this part here and want to see Darkshade comment on this.
You mean this?
https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/comirnaty (https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/comirnaty)
https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download (https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download)
This is not the vaccine that is being distributed to the public under the EUA.
FDA approval means little to me, either way, especially without long-term data.
https://www.fda.gov/media/150386/download (https://www.fda.gov/media/150386/download)
page 5
“Although COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) is approved to prevent COVID-19 in individuals 16 years of age and older, there is not sufficient approved vaccine available for distribution to this population in its entirety at the time of reissuance of this EUA,”
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You mean this?
https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/comirnaty (https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/comirnaty)
https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download (https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download)
This is not the vaccine that is being distributed to the public under the EUA.
Directly from the 2nd link, 2nd page:
COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) and the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine
have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19
vaccination series*.
*The licensed vaccine has the same formulation as the EUA-authorized vaccine and the products can be
used interchangeably to provide the vaccination series without presenting any safety or effectiveness
concerns. The products are legally distinct with certain differences that do not impact safety or
effectiveness.
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Yes. I see it in your posts daily.
I see you skipped over the stats.
Seeking truth and rationality is not 'taking crazy pills'
Saying 'unvaxxed' people should be denied services at a hospital is crazy.
Since I'm one of the people suggesting something similar to that, I'll chime in. My stance has been that hospitals should limit ICU space to leave beds in reserve for people who aren't there voluntarily. This isn't spite, or some misguided concept of eugenics (although voluntary eugenics is better referred to as Darwinism). This is basic resource allocation. Seeing somebody with a treatable condition die because antivaxxers are using up the available healthcare pisses me off. It's not "personal responsibility" if other people have to pay for your outcomes.
But what about the makeshift hospitals that were created specifically for covid patient overflow in densely populated areas? Did hospital administrators and state governments give up on that idea because now the pharma donors for our 'elected leaders' got their drugs into the public sphere via EUA?
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/54ed1930e4b0360a4990e146/1594658211596-U27P04GNYM2MZY1Y7K2J/IMG_0748.gif)
Also, if you're going to go that route, address my question about why the entire planet is going along with this conspiracy.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56501.msg2809936#msg2809936
omg :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
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FDA approval means little to me, either way, especially without long-term data.
When firefighters come to put out your house, you don't ask them for long term data about the consequences of having wet walls.
Disease prevention is quite literally the best health care method. Even if you had a cure that can heal 90% of people in the hospitals (which ivermectin isn't), it's far better to have vaccines that keep 90% of people out of the hospital in the first place. HIV is one of the rare viruses that responds to some kind of therapy, to the point where people who have it can now live normal lives, but researchers still want a vaccine against it, because it's far better to just not get sick.
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This thread is awesome.
:tup :tup
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FDA approval means little to me, either way, especially without long-term data.
I suspect this is where we disagree, because while we definitely could agree on a number of things, chiefly: corporate boards that run companies like Pfizer being driven by self-interest and profit alone; the government being corrupt; regulatory bodies being imperfect and inconsistent; the media being out of control, and so on, at the end of the day, it's still the best bet to stick with the guidance. Because what is the alternative?
I'm sure we all have tolerances for how closely we follow the guidance. There were things my family did that were not recommended, as I'm sure the same is true for you and your family. But that vaccine? That's the best shot we've got at getting back to normal. At this point, even if the whole thing were one big lie, just to line Pfizer's pockets, I'd take the damn thing, just to get it over with. Because what else can you do? *I* don't believe it's a big lie, in fact I know plenty of people who've been negatively affected, some even fatally. But, just sayin'...
I totally get where you're coming from... that the powers-that-be lie to us when they're at their worst, and even when they're at their best, fail to stop the myriad of incentives from causing terrible chain reactions that lead humanity down paths it would not have deliberately chosen. Sadly, change doesn't happen overnight, and improvements come slowly... this has been our species from Day Zero. It just takes time.
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FDA approval means little to me, either way, especially without long-term data.
When firefighters come to put out your house, you don't ask them for long term data about the consequences of having wet walls.
Disease prevention is quite literally the best health care method. Even if you had a cure that can heal 90% of people in the hospitals (which ivermectin isn't), it's far better to have vaccines that keep 90% of people out of the hospital in the first place. HIV is one of the rare viruses that responds to some kind of therapy, to the point where people who have it can now live normal lives, but researchers still want a vaccine against it, because it's far better to just not get sick.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I am definitely on board with this! What I don't get is why people are on the ivermectin train. You literally have to have covid before people will say treat me with it. And there is no "long term data" to prove that it does anything with regards prevention or treatment.
Vaccines are our best solution and we have and are collecting plenty of data since the vaccine rollout to confirm that they are effective and safe.
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What I don't get is why people are on the ivermectin train.
I think I know this one.
Because they are morons.
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What I don't get is why people are on the ivermectin train.
I think I know this one.
Because they are morons.
:heartThis thread is awesome.
:tup :tup
It really is...it's like a house fire that people keep trying to put out with gasoline.
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Ben, unless you have children and watched them struggle to breathe, being completely helpless in the moment, you cannot comprehend the sheer terror of that experience. Im not even going to read any more of your bullshit post above.
When presented with the possibility that my child is sick with covid, that is exactly where my thoughts go. If you think that's wrong, you can just ___ off. Just yesterday in a neighboring suburb was a "medical freedom rally." Jackass parents in other suburbs are protesting covid mask mandates in schools ON SCHOOL WALKING ROUTES. Kids walking to school have to thread their way through parents with signs and shouting. That is not cool.
Yes, he is ok, despite being sick as hell. But to come down on me so hard is awful and shows me just what kind of person you really are.
I was going to back you up but you beat me to it. We parents just love it when a non-parent can possibly ever try and comprehend what being a parent is like and then have the gall to question our behavior when worried about our kids.
I would have been exactly like Grapp. No question.
So just to be clear on this point, I'm on Grappler's side here. And I suppose by extension, yours as well. I think Ben's remark was somewhat incorrect, but not in the way y'all think. I mostly think it just wasn't really worth saying under the circumstances. Grappler's concerned about his kid, and I'm damn sure not going to knock him for that. Hope things turn out well. :tup
That said, much like we non-parents can't comprehend this and that and the other, parents seem to have an equally rough go at trying to see things from the non-parent perspective, which, believe it or not, is every bit as valid. Where I think Ben was wrong was that all parents "jump to those assumptions and start to become emotional to where they affect their overall thought process." As I've said before, parenthood makes people lose their fucking minds. Reason is quickly replaced by emotionalism. This is not a bad thing, per se. Parents become what they need to be. Just don't be so quick to dismiss what those of us looking in from the outside have to say. The dispassionate, alternative perspective is just as important, and just as valid.
In this case, it probably wasn't. Grappler's emotional response was quite valid. At the same time, sometimes people like us need to remind parents that maybe $400 on a bulletproof backpack for you kid isn't as wise as dropping the same 4 bills into an investment account for him.
As a parent who has performed the Heimlich maneuver on his own kid, you're both right. In that moment there's no right answer, it's your moment. EVERYTHING went through my head, and I was ready to take on the restaurant, Big Oil and the Taliban all in one fell swoop. But then the moment passes and we have to insert ourselves back in the real world, even if the outcome is not to our liking. "My kid being sick" is not a standard by which others need to operate, and in fact, sometimes - SOMETIMES - it's the others who have the cooler head and the broader vision to maintain perspective.
It goes without saying, Grappler, but I'll say it anyway: my heart breaks for you. There is nothing worse than seeing a child suffer (made worse since they don't know basic things like clearing one's nose or chest of congestion, to relieve themselves of discomfort), and I well and truly hope that he recovers fully and quickly.
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What I don't get is why people are on the ivermectin train.
I think I know this one.
Because they are morons.
That's not really fair. While this is an off-label use, and the verdict is still out on whether or not it's effective, it does have promise and is well tolerated. If you buy horse pills from Sneed's Seed and Feed then you're probably an idiot. If you're buying human-grade Ivermectin from a reputable pharmacy then you're really just exploring all of your options. My issue is both sides wrapping it up in more partisan bullshit. It's neither the miracle drug that big-pharma is hiding from us, nor sketchy horse de-wormer.
What I don't get is why the people who are on the Ivermectin bandwagon are terrified of a vaccine that's demonstrably safe and effective in favor of something that's demonstrably neither. I'm also annoyed by the complete avoidance of science insofar as it's concerned. You don't get to take Ivermectin, monoclonal antibodies, and antiestrogens, and then say that Ivermectin kills Covid.
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"My kid being sick" is not a standard by which others need to operate, and in fact, sometimes - SOMETIMES - it's the others who have the cooler head and the broader vision to maintain perspective.
Question to you .... if the reason my kid is sick is directly BECAUSE of the way that others operate, does that change your stance. Alternatively, let's replace "sick" with "bullied"... does the same perspective or standard apply?
-
What I don't get is why people are on the ivermectin train.
I think I know this one.
Because they are morons.
That's not really fair. While this is an off-label use, and the verdict is still out on whether or not it's effective, it does have promise and is well tolerated. If you buy horse pills from Sneed's Seed and Feed then you're probably an idiot. If you're buying human-grade Ivermectin from a reputable pharmacy then you're really just exploring all of your options. My issue is both sides wrapping it up in more partisan bullshit. It's neither the miracle drug that big-pharma is hiding from us, nor sketchy horse de-wormer.
What I don't get is why the people who are on the Ivermectin bandwagon are terrified of a vaccine that's demonstrably safe and effective in favor of something that's demonstrably neither. I'm also annoyed by the complete avoidance of science insofar as it's concerned. You don't get to take Ivermectin, monoclonal antibodies, and antiestrogens, and then say that Ivermectin kills Covid.
I'd add the disclaimer that if you're "exploring" your options without consulting a medical or pharmaceutical professional or having a medical degree yourself, you're probably still an idiot.
-
What I don't get is why people are on the ivermectin train.
I think I know this one.
Because they are morons.
That's not really fair. While this is an off-label use, and the verdict is still out on whether or not it's effective, it does have promise and is well tolerated. If you buy horse pills from Sneed's Seed and Feed then you're probably an idiot. If you're buying human-grade Ivermectin from a reputable pharmacy then you're really just exploring all of your options. My issue is both sides wrapping it up in more partisan bullshit. It's neither the miracle drug that big-pharma is hiding from us, nor sketchy horse de-wormer.
What I don't get is why the people who are on the Ivermectin bandwagon are terrified of a vaccine that's demonstrably safe and effective in favor of something that's demonstrably neither. I'm also annoyed by the complete avoidance of science insofar as it's concerned. You don't get to take Ivermectin, monoclonal antibodies, and antiestrogens, and then say that Ivermectin kills Covid.
I'd add the disclaimer that if you're "exploring" your options without consulting a medical or pharmaceutical professional or having a medical degree yourself, you're probably still an idiot.
I wouldn't. I've already said that of my doctors, I doubt any of them have actually studied the studies, and would most likely just parrot the recommendations and guidelines. Interestingly, of my doctors, the one I'd most expect to be up on the research is my ENT. He just strikes me as the more curious and scientific type of guy. Or maybe my podiatrist, for the same reason. There are definitely doctors at the transplant institute who would have really dug in hard on the research, but they're not really the types that see patients on the regular, and I don't get to make requests.
-
What I don't get is why people are on the ivermectin train.
I think I know this one.
Because they are morons.
That's not really fair. While this is an off-label use, and the verdict is still out on whether or not it's effective, it does have promise and is well tolerated. If you buy horse pills from Sneed's Seed and Feed then you're probably an idiot. If you're buying human-grade Ivermectin from a reputable pharmacy then you're really just exploring all of your options. My issue is both sides wrapping it up in more partisan bullshit. It's neither the miracle drug that big-pharma is hiding from us, nor sketchy horse de-wormer.
It's fair. The people taking it are almost all buying the horse-portion from tractor supply and self-medicating, not taking the much smaller human-sized dose that would be prescribed by their doctor, if their doctor would do such a thing. It's like taking peanut butter for a sore knee.
What I don't get is why the people who are on the Ivermectin bandwagon are terrified of a vaccine that's demonstrably safe and effective in favor of something that's demonstrably neither. I'm also annoyed by the complete avoidance of science insofar as it's concerned. You don't get to take Ivermectin, monoclonal antibodies, and antiestrogens, and then say that Ivermectin kills Covid.
Yeah, that's why they are morons.
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What I don't get is why people are on the ivermectin train.
I think I know this one.
Because they are morons.
That's not really fair. While this is an off-label use, and the verdict is still out on whether or not it's effective, it does have promise and is well tolerated. If you buy horse pills from Sneed's Seed and Feed then you're probably an idiot. If you're buying human-grade Ivermectin from a reputable pharmacy then you're really just exploring all of your options. My issue is both sides wrapping it up in more partisan bullshit. It's neither the miracle drug that big-pharma is hiding from us, nor sketchy horse de-wormer.
What I don't get is why the people who are on the Ivermectin bandwagon are terrified of a vaccine that's demonstrably safe and effective in favor of something that's demonstrably neither. I'm also annoyed by the complete avoidance of science insofar as it's concerned. You don't get to take Ivermectin, monoclonal antibodies, and antiestrogens, and then say that Ivermectin kills Covid.
I'd add the disclaimer that if you're "exploring" your options without consulting a medical or pharmaceutical professional or having a medical degree yourself, you're probably still an idiot.
I wouldn't. I've already said that of my doctors, I doubt any of them have actually studied the studies, and would most likely just parrot the recommendations and guidelines. Interestingly, of my doctors, the one I'd most expect to be up on the research is my ENT. He just strikes me as the more curious and scientific type of guy. Or maybe my podiatrist, for the same reason. There are definitely doctors at the transplant institute who would have really dug in hard on the research, but they're not really the types that see patients on the regular, and I don't get to make requests.
On this we'll agree to disagree. Anyone who self medicate pharmaceuticals without consulting a medical professional concerning dosage or applicability/pertinent efficacy is an idiot, and I'm including myself in that as I spent decades self medicating with random pharmaceuticals that I really had zero education on and definitely could've killed myself at many points.
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"My kid being sick" is not a standard by which others need to operate, and in fact, sometimes - SOMETIMES - it's the others who have the cooler head and the broader vision to maintain perspective.
Question to you .... if the reason my kid is sick is directly BECAUSE of the way that others operate, does that change your stance. Alternatively, let's replace "sick" with "bullied"... does the same perspective or standard apply?
This is exactly what I was going to post. When someone else's behaviors affect my kids' health, we have a problem.
Does covid mimic a bad chest cold? Yes. I was reasonably certain that he didn't have covid (my daughter tested negative a week before, and he probably picked up her cold). But he'd also been at preschool twice this week and could have picked it up from a kid there. Is there a good chance that kid's family doesn't adhere to covid mitigations (mask wearing when required, being vaccinated) based on where I live? Yes.
It pisses me off so much to see these parents holding anti-mask/anti vax protests in the surrounding suburbs while I am driving a sick little boy to the hospital and while my wife is up all night long worrying that he could have covid. It's absolutely not fair to others to knowingly disregard public health measures. I know covid is here to stay and once my kids can get vaccinated, I'll let up on this belief. But until then, I have every right to be angry at others for their behavior when it can potentially impact my kid. We have worked so hard to keep our family healthy. My wife felt like a failure yesterday when she thought he might have covid, on her birthday no less. He's 3 - half of his life has been spent either staying closer to home or wearing a mask, so a cold just took root in his chest with his immune system not having to do much work for the last year. Had that been covid, he might have been in really, really bad shape.
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This thread is awesome.
:tup :tup
It's not really, though. To me, it's kind of sad. It's pretty much what I've been writing about for going on two years now, writ large for all of us to see. Party 1 bitches and moans about how Party 2 isn't doing what we want them to (with obligatory mocking of perfectly reasonable arguments like "personal responsibility") then when a member of Party 2 engages, it's more mocking and challenging and belittling - even if subtle - and Party 1 wonders why Party 2 isn't playing ball. Oh, we're polite about it, but there's a lot more use of the word "crazy" than should be if it was a good faith conversation.
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I’m vaccinated and I tend to trust the scientists…but something that’s being hinted at really resonates with me. Doctors parroting what they are told.
Every doctor I’ve seen in the better part of the last two decades basically listens to your symptoms, takes your personal info and vitals, and punches it all into WebMD, and then they do what it tells them. It tends to make people feel like they are just part of a machine. The whole process just makes you feel like you’re one step closer to that scene in Idiocracy.
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FDA approval means little to me, either way, especially without long-term data.
I suspect this is where we disagree, because while we definitely could agree on a number of things, chiefly: corporate boards that run companies like Pfizer being driven by self-interest and profit alone; the government being corrupt; regulatory bodies being imperfect and inconsistent; the media being out of control, and so on, at the end of the day, it's still the best bet to stick with the guidance. Because what is the alternative?
I'm sure we all have tolerances for how closely we follow the guidance. There were things my family did that were not recommended, as I'm sure the same is true for you and your family. But that vaccine? That's the best shot we've got at getting back to normal. At this point, even if the whole thing were one big lie, just to line Pfizer's pockets, I'd take the damn thing, just to get it over with. Because what else can you do? *I* don't believe it's a big lie, in fact I know plenty of people who've been negatively affected, some even fatally. But, just sayin'...
I totally get where you're coming from... that the powers-that-be lie to us when they're at their worst, and even when they're at their best, fail to stop the myriad of incentives from causing terrible chain reactions that lead humanity down paths it would not have deliberately chosen. Sadly, change doesn't happen overnight, and improvements come slowly... this has been our species from Day Zero. It just takes time.
I like this. Fair, reasoned, balanced...
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I’m vaccinated and I tend to trust the scientists…but something that’s being hinted at really resonates with me. Doctors parroting what they are told.
Every doctor I’ve seen in the better part of the last two decades basically listens to your symptoms, takes your personal info and vitals, and punches it all into WebMD, and then they do what it tells them. It tends to make people feel like they are just part of a machine. The whole process just makes you feel like you’re one step closer to that scene in Idiocracy.
It's here somewhere in one of the old threads, but there was a conversation a couple years ago about the pure genius of marketing certain drugs directly to the public, so that they would go back in to their doctors and ask for them. The doctors were then put in the position of having to either stand up to the patient and risk losing them (and their income) or giving a medicine/drug that they might not have given 100% voluntarily. I don't know about the WebMD, or Idiocracy (that's a movie, right?) but the dynamic is certainly something to discuss.
-
What I don't get is why people are on the ivermectin train.
I think I know this one.
Because they are morons.
That's not really fair. While this is an off-label use, and the verdict is still out on whether or not it's effective, it does have promise and is well tolerated. If you buy horse pills from Sneed's Seed and Feed then you're probably an idiot. If you're buying human-grade Ivermectin from a reputable pharmacy then you're really just exploring all of your options. My issue is both sides wrapping it up in more partisan bullshit. It's neither the miracle drug that big-pharma is hiding from us, nor sketchy horse de-wormer.
What I don't get is why the people who are on the Ivermectin bandwagon are terrified of a vaccine that's demonstrably safe and effective in favor of something that's demonstrably neither. I'm also annoyed by the complete avoidance of science insofar as it's concerned. You don't get to take Ivermectin, monoclonal antibodies, and antiestrogens, and then say that Ivermectin kills Covid.
I'd add the disclaimer that if you're "exploring" your options without consulting a medical or pharmaceutical professional or having a medical degree yourself, you're probably still an idiot.
I wouldn't. I've already said that of my doctors, I doubt any of them have actually studied the studies, and would most likely just parrot the recommendations and guidelines. Interestingly, of my doctors, the one I'd most expect to be up on the research is my ENT. He just strikes me as the more curious and scientific type of guy. Or maybe my podiatrist, for the same reason. There are definitely doctors at the transplant institute who would have really dug in hard on the research, but they're not really the types that see patients on the regular, and I don't get to make requests.
On this we'll agree to disagree. Anyone who self medicate pharmaceuticals without consulting a medical professional concerning dosage or applicability/pertinent efficacy is an idiot, and I'm including myself in that as I spent decades self medicating with random pharmaceuticals that I really had zero education on and definitely could've killed myself at many points.
I feel this same way regarding a person's diet and Diet Trends. How people will try any diet and then wonder why it's not working. Did you see a nutritionist first to see what nutrients your body is lacking? Seeing a nutritionist first will tell you what your body needs and what foods to be eating that have those nutrients and what foods not to be eating that is causing you to have too much of that nutrient.
Your body has effects from too much or too little nutrients that it can cause health issues by eating too much like sugars, breads and pastas, and by eating too little nutrients your body and organs need to be working properly.
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"My kid being sick" is not a standard by which others need to operate, and in fact, sometimes - SOMETIMES - it's the others who have the cooler head and the broader vision to maintain perspective.
Question to you .... if the reason my kid is sick is directly BECAUSE of the way that others operate, does that change your stance. Alternatively, let's replace "sick" with "bullied"... does the same perspective or standard apply?
I'm not sure EXACTLY what the question is, but even so, it depends. For me - and I don't mean "my opinion", but rather, my knowledge of the law and concept of forcing behavior of others - the key words are "directly because". Some yahoo in Missouri not getting the vaccine is not "direct cause" to my kid having COVID in the same way that, say, running over them with a car would be. Even if some yahoo in Hartford, CT doesn't get the vaccine, and there's COVID in my school, it's not a "directly because", since we KNOW that you can get COVID with the vaccine and many vaccinated are asymptomatic (statistics don't matter here, so don't reply "but the ODDS!"; we're talking direct causation not probabilities).
Same with bullying; if Kid A (haha, I hate Radiohead!) comes up and punched my kid in the balls and takes his lunch money, then Kid A ought to be punished. Do I necessarily think that all other kids now have to act a certain way because my kid took one in the pouch? No.
If you're talking something more general, like car seat safety, or, I don't know, child predator laws, there are mechanisms. If you think someone made your kid sick, sue them and see if it pans out. I can't speak where you live, but there are easily a half dozen lawyers in my neck of the woods that would take the case on contingency if they thought you were right (John Haymond, Carter Mario, Mark A. Salomone, Trantolo & Trantolo, Gould Injury Law... I can sing the jingles if you want!). We're really talking about forcing someone else to act proactively on the OFF CHANCE that your (or someone else's kid) MIGHT get sick.
And INB4,YES, I know this is how we - really, politicians - operate, and that doesn't make it right. That we consistently close the barn door after the cow gets out doesn't mean it's a great strategy. I give the example all the time: Chris Murphy crying crocodile tears while pandering for votes with his arms around the families of Sandy Hook, while they stand there in shock like deer in headlights.
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I’m vaccinated and I tend to trust the scientists…but something that’s being hinted at really resonates with me. Doctors parroting what they are told.
Every doctor I’ve seen in the better part of the last two decades basically listens to your symptoms, takes your personal info and vitals, and punches it all into WebMD, and then they do what it tells them. It tends to make people feel like they are just part of a machine. The whole process just makes you feel like you’re one step closer to that scene in Idiocracy.
Add in the fact the healthcare system wasn't as great before Covid either. It's like people have this perception that the Healthcare system was working before the pandemic, when our entire human healthcare system isn't that almighty and the best of the best as people claim it to be.
These issues of Insurance, denying care if you don't have insurance, punishing for not having insurance, and lack of care for veterans, all play into a person's perceptions and attitudes towards the entire Healthcare System. Which made them have a distrust for it and all that is a part of that system.
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What I don't get is why people are on the ivermectin train.
I think I know this one.
Because they are morons.
That's not really fair. While this is an off-label use, and the verdict is still out on whether or not it's effective, it does have promise and is well tolerated. If you buy horse pills from Sneed's Seed and Feed then you're probably an idiot. If you're buying human-grade Ivermectin from a reputable pharmacy then you're really just exploring all of your options. My issue is both sides wrapping it up in more partisan bullshit. It's neither the miracle drug that big-pharma is hiding from us, nor sketchy horse de-wormer.
It's fair. The people taking it are almost all buying the horse-portion from tractor supply and self-medicating, not taking the much smaller human-sized dose that would be prescribed by their doctor, if their doctor would do such a thing. It's like taking peanut butter for a sore knee.
What I don't get is why the people who are on the Ivermectin bandwagon are terrified of a vaccine that's demonstrably safe and effective in favor of something that's demonstrably neither. I'm also annoyed by the complete avoidance of science insofar as it's concerned. You don't get to take Ivermectin, monoclonal antibodies, and antiestrogens, and then say that Ivermectin kills Covid.
Yeah, that's why they are morons.
Every time I hear "morons" and "idiots" and "crazy" I hear Richard Rawlings' "whoo!" in my head.
That's not a good thing.
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"My kid being sick" is not a standard by which others need to operate, and in fact, sometimes - SOMETIMES - it's the others who have the cooler head and the broader vision to maintain perspective.
Question to you .... if the reason my kid is sick is directly BECAUSE of the way that others operate, does that change your stance. Alternatively, let's replace "sick" with "bullied"... does the same perspective or standard apply?
This is exactly what I was going to post. When someone else's behaviors affect my kids' health, we have a problem.
Does covid mimic a bad chest cold? Yes. I was reasonably certain that he didn't have covid (my daughter tested negative a week before, and he probably picked up her cold). But he'd also been at preschool twice this week and could have picked it up from a kid there. Is there a good chance that kid's family doesn't adhere to covid mitigations (mask wearing when required, being vaccinated) based on where I live? Yes.
It pisses me off so much to see these parents holding anti-mask/anti vax protests in the surrounding suburbs while I am driving a sick little boy to the hospital and while my wife is up all night long worrying that he could have covid. It's absolutely not fair to others to knowingly disregard public health measures. I know covid is here to stay and once my kids can get vaccinated, I'll let up on this belief. But until then, I have every right to be angry at others for their behavior when it can potentially impact my kid. We have worked so hard to keep our family healthy. My wife felt like a failure yesterday when she thought he might have covid, on her birthday no less. He's 3 - half of his life has been spent either staying closer to home or wearing a mask, so a cold just took root in his chest with his immune system not having to do much work for the last year. Had that been covid, he might have been in really, really bad shape.
You DO have every right to be angry. No one said that. You being angry - or happy, or sad, or frustrated, or horny, or whatever - is yours and yours alone. What you DO with that anger is not.
And NONE of this is to be insensitive, or undermine how much I hope your little boy walks away from this - SOON - unscathed.
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What I don't get is why people are on the ivermectin train.
I think I know this one.
Because they are morons.
That's not really fair. While this is an off-label use, and the verdict is still out on whether or not it's effective, it does have promise and is well tolerated. If you buy horse pills from Sneed's Seed and Feed then you're probably an idiot. If you're buying human-grade Ivermectin from a reputable pharmacy then you're really just exploring all of your options. My issue is both sides wrapping it up in more partisan bullshit. It's neither the miracle drug that big-pharma is hiding from us, nor sketchy horse de-wormer.
It's fair. The people taking it are almost all buying the horse-portion from tractor supply and self-medicating, not taking the much smaller human-sized dose that would be prescribed by their doctor, if their doctor would do such a thing. It's like taking peanut butter for a sore knee.
This isn't exactly true. For one thing lots of people are taking it in appropriate doses from appropriate sources. The bigger issue, though, is that a Dr. won't prescribe anything that hasn't been approved for specific people, under specific circumstances, on specific days of the week, and for specific purposes. They're too worried about getting sanctioned and getting sued. The fact that no doctor would prescribe it isn't exactly telling. There are doctors recommending it off the record, though, because taken correctly it is safe, and it does show potential. If people started to notice that Simvastatin (Zocor) was beneficial in the treatment of Covid, no doctors would prescribe it for that purpose. They couldn't. Plenty of people would take it, though. Would they be morons?
Eating horse pills from the feed store? Moron. Taking it in a responsible measure, despite no prescription? Not a moron.
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"My kid being sick" is not a standard by which others need to operate, and in fact, sometimes - SOMETIMES - it's the others who have the cooler head and the broader vision to maintain perspective.
Question to you .... if the reason my kid is sick is directly BECAUSE of the way that others operate, does that change your stance. Alternatively, let's replace "sick" with "bullied"... does the same perspective or standard apply?
I'm not sure EXACTLY what the question is, but even so, it depends. For me - and I don't mean "my opinion", but rather, my knowledge of the law and concept of forcing behavior of others - the key words are "directly because". Some yahoo in Missouri not getting the vaccine is not "direct cause" to my kid having COVID in the same way that, say, running over them with a car would be. Even if some yahoo in Hartford, CT doesn't get the vaccine, and there's COVID in my school, it's not a "directly because", since we KNOW that you can get COVID with the vaccine and many vaccinated are asymptomatic (statistics don't matter here, so don't reply "but the ODDS!"; we're talking direct causation not probabilities).
Same with bullying; if Kid A (haha, I hate Radiohead!) comes up and punched my kid in the balls and takes his lunch money, then Kid A ought to be punished. Do I necessarily think that all other kids now have to act a certain way because my kid took one in the pouch? No.
No, but I suspect you (and your kid) have a reasonable expectation that a litany of other kids aren't going to simply go around punching balls and stealing sammie's. How about when Kid A (and/or B, C, D and E) is (are) mentally bullying your kid, and there's no direct/tangible/physical *evidence* to prove it? In my world, that's a standard that is unacceptable. And most school boards would agree.
On the whole of your post, you have some fair points I'll concede - the individualized direct causality measurement isn't fair or appropriate. But while we're at it, let's come off of the legal/litigation topic (because I'm quite certain school-aged bullies don't often get sued as the burden of proof is too large). So, with that said, as cheffy said to the Admiral, we'll simply have to agree to disagree on the matter. I believe (and I've said this ad infinitum in this thread) I should have a reasonable expectation that others' behaviours shouldn't impact me - in this case, posing a meaningful increase in risk of catching a deadly communicable disease. You (Stadler) and I have debated this enough times that it simply should be left at 'we'll agree to disagree'.
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Eating horse pills from the feed store? Moron. Taking it in a responsible measure, despite no prescription? Not a moron.
It does beg the question ... how does one come to the conclusion that taking Ivermectin is a reasonable thing to do to combat COVID, but taking a vaccine is not?
Approved for that use? Vax - yes; IV - no
Researched and studied and peer reviewed for that use? Vax - yes; IV - no
Long term research? Vax - no; IV - no
100s of millions of real-world data points available? Vax - yes; IV - no
Under those four criteria alone, I just can't wrap my head around someone being anti-vax, but pro Ivermectin. Under what criteria does Ivermectin come out on top?
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Eating horse pills from the feed store? Moron. Taking it in a responsible measure, despite no prescription? Not a moron.
It does beg the question ... how does one come to the conclusion that taking Ivermectin is a reasonable thing to do to combat COVID, but taking a vaccine is not?
Approved for that use? Vax - yes; IV - no
Researched and studied and peer reviewed for that use? Vax - yes; IV - no
Long term research? Vax - no; IV - no
100s of millions of real-world data points available? Vax - yes; IV - no
Under those four criteria alone, I just can't wrap my head around someone being anti-vax, but pro Ivermectin. Under what criteria does Ivermectin come out on top?
Distrust of the Healthcare System definetely plays a role. Then there are personal bad experiences of that healthcare system that forms a sense of distrust in those involved, the doctors, nurses, the ones in charge.
It's also likely because of the rollout, and the way it's being administered. People just don't like being bullied into doing things they don't want to do. Some people will be okay with being told in that sort of manner and will abide and comply, but others will not. A great example are the issues related to how people interact with police officers and the consequences that happen because they don't comply and don't want to be bullied to comply or abide.
And just like the unvaccinated, who is getting the blunt of the blame? Not the ones that are not abiding or complying to the authority bullying.
It's like how people know foods are bad for them, yet they eat them anyways and end up having discomfort and tolerating it because that food just looked so good.
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Eating horse pills from the feed store? Moron. Taking it in a responsible measure, despite no prescription? Not a moron.
It does beg the question ... how does one come to the conclusion that taking Ivermectin is a reasonable thing to do to combat COVID, but taking a vaccine is not?
Approved for that use? Vax - yes; IV - no
Researched and studied and peer reviewed for that use? Vax - yes; IV - no
Long term research? Vax - no; IV - no
100s of millions of real-world data points available? Vax - yes; IV - no
Under those four criteria alone, I just can't wrap my head around someone being anti-vax, but pro Ivermectin. Under what criteria does Ivermectin come out on top?
I don't subscribe to this theory, so I'm right there with ya, but I do have some answers. Mistrust of the FDA is certainly one. Ivermectin has been prescribed globally for other conditions. It is approved by not only the FDA, but other governing bodies for human use and is a known commodity. Its designers won a Nobel prize, and it's considered an essential medicine by the WHO. MRNA vaccines were rushed through, and were being prescribed under an EUA. Plus, as Darkshade keeps pointing out, halfway correctly, it's easy to mistrust the motivations here. And while I don't agree with his conspiracy theory, it is hard to notice that it's been deliberately misrepresented as some hare-brained bit of quackery by the media. That's the sort of thing that tends to make me suspicious.
Also, the fact that it has RNA in the name probably contributes a scare factor. I suspect that if they'd just branded it as Mernarid© we'd have a slightly higher percentage of vaccinated.
Overall, it doesn't make much sense to me. Take the vaccine, and if you still get sick, then maybe have Ivermectin in your quiver of things to try. I'd rather not need it than have to roll the dice with it, but I wouldn't be too worried about throwing snake-eyes with it if the time came.
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This thread is awesome.
:tup :tup
It's not really, though. To me, it's kind of sad. It's pretty much what I've been writing about for going on two years now, writ large for all of us to see. Party 1 bitches and moans about how Party 2 isn't doing what we want them to (with obligatory mocking of perfectly reasonable arguments like "personal responsibility") then when a member of Party 2 engages, it's more mocking and challenging and belittling - even if subtle - and Party 1 wonders why Party 2 isn't playing ball. Oh, we're polite about it, but there's a lot more use of the word "crazy" than should be if it was a good faith conversation.
My tongue was in cheek, for the record.
What I don't get is why people are on the ivermectin train.
I think I know this one.
Because they are morons.
That's not really fair. While this is an off-label use, and the verdict is still out on whether or not it's effective, it does have promise and is well tolerated. If you buy horse pills from Sneed's Seed and Feed then you're probably an idiot. If you're buying human-grade Ivermectin from a reputable pharmacy then you're really just exploring all of your options. My issue is both sides wrapping it up in more partisan bullshit. It's neither the miracle drug that big-pharma is hiding from us, nor sketchy horse de-wormer.
It's fair. The people taking it are almost all buying the horse-portion from tractor supply and self-medicating, not taking the much smaller human-sized dose that would be prescribed by their doctor, if their doctor would do such a thing. It's like taking peanut butter for a sore knee.
What I don't get is why the people who are on the Ivermectin bandwagon are terrified of a vaccine that's demonstrably safe and effective in favor of something that's demonstrably neither. I'm also annoyed by the complete avoidance of science insofar as it's concerned. You don't get to take Ivermectin, monoclonal antibodies, and antiestrogens, and then say that Ivermectin kills Covid.
Yeah, that's why they are morons.
Every time I hear "morons" and "idiots" and "crazy" I hear Richard Rawlings' "whoo!" in my head.
That's not a good thing.
I have no fucking clue who that is.
I suppose you don't think anyone are morons, idiots, or crazy? At least, in conversational language?
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"My kid being sick" is not a standard by which others need to operate, and in fact, sometimes - SOMETIMES - it's the others who have the cooler head and the broader vision to maintain perspective.
Question to you .... if the reason my kid is sick is directly BECAUSE of the way that others operate, does that change your stance. Alternatively, let's replace "sick" with "bullied"... does the same perspective or standard apply?
I'm not sure EXACTLY what the question is, but even so, it depends. For me - and I don't mean "my opinion", but rather, my knowledge of the law and concept of forcing behavior of others - the key words are "directly because". Some yahoo in Missouri not getting the vaccine is not "direct cause" to my kid having COVID in the same way that, say, running over them with a car would be. Even if some yahoo in Hartford, CT doesn't get the vaccine, and there's COVID in my school, it's not a "directly because", since we KNOW that you can get COVID with the vaccine and many vaccinated are asymptomatic (statistics don't matter here, so don't reply "but the ODDS!"; we're talking direct causation not probabilities).
Same with bullying; if Kid A (haha, I hate Radiohead!) comes up and punched my kid in the balls and takes his lunch money, then Kid A ought to be punished. Do I necessarily think that all other kids now have to act a certain way because my kid took one in the pouch? No.
No, but I suspect you (and your kid) have a reasonable expectation that a litany of other kids aren't going to simply go around punching balls and stealing sammie's. How about when Kid A (and/or B, C, D and E) is (are) mentally bullying your kid, and there's no direct/tangible/physical *evidence* to prove it? In my world, that's a standard that is unacceptable. And most school boards would agree.
I don't follow this; I mean, I honestly don't understand what you're saying (that's on me, not you). I do have a reasonable expectation that that won't happen, but not a RIGHT to DEMAND it not happen, nor the RIGHT to force people to not do it proactively. I can only rely on the punishment meted out according to the programs in place if it does happen. As for Kids B, C, D, and E and there's no tangible evidence to prove it... I'm not sure what you're referring to that is unacceptable. I was in this with my stepdaughter, and am in it now with my stepson. Hell, even his own FATHER doesn't agree it's bullying (because he's trying to keep him in the school close to him rather than go to the school closest to us), so what happens is they monitor and separate where possible, and if one of the kids crosses the line we're back in punishment mode.
On the whole of your post, you have some fair points I'll concede - the individualized direct causality measurement isn't fair or appropriate. But while we're at it, let's come off of the legal/litigation topic (because I'm quite certain school-aged bullies don't often get sued as the burden of proof is too large). So, with that said, as cheffy said to the Admiral, we'll simply have to agree to disagree on the matter. I believe (and I've said this ad infinitum in this thread) I should have a reasonable expectation that others' behaviours shouldn't impact me - in this case, posing a meaningful increase in risk of catching a deadly communicable disease. You (Stadler) and I have debated this enough times that it simply should be left at 'we'll agree to disagree'.
But this is a point that comes up a LOT and never QUITE gets addressed. I believe I should date Margot Robbie. I believe I am the handsomest man here (and more attractive than most of the women). I believe I am the second smartest person here (Adami is smartest, but he will disagree with me on principle, and so I'm back to number one). I believe I am the best athlete here. So where does that get me if only some or none of you agree with me? I cannot force you to agree with me and we cannot pass laws to make you agree with me.
We can agree to disagree, but we're not on equal sides of a teeter-totter here, balancing each other out. I AM right, unfortunately, since there is a framework for this stuff. In practical measure, there is NO standard in the system we live in where any one person is given the expectation that they not be harmed. There are remedial measures if they ARE harmed, but very few, if any, of the protections of rights in our democracy (I'm now taking about America, because that is what I know) that is PREVENTATIVE in nature. Innocent until proven guilty; it's built into the program. Else we would jail anyone that abused a cat on the grounds that they MIGHT be a serial killer later on. Else we would jail anyone that huffed glue as a kid on the grounds that they MIGHT be a drunk driver later on.
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Stads, you are the best Thesaurus on DTF.
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Stads, you are the best Thesaurus on DTF.
:rollin
You owe me an iced tea fucker. And a new shirt.
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Eating horse pills from the feed store? Moron. Taking it in a responsible measure, despite no prescription? Not a moron.
It does beg the question ... how does one come to the conclusion that taking Ivermectin is a reasonable thing to do to combat COVID, but taking a vaccine is not?
Approved for that use? Vax - yes; IV - no
Researched and studied and peer reviewed for that use? Vax - yes; IV - no
Long term research? Vax - no; IV - no
100s of millions of real-world data points available? Vax - yes; IV - no
Under those four criteria alone, I just can't wrap my head around someone being anti-vax, but pro Ivermectin. Under what criteria does Ivermectin come out on top?
Plenty of people opt for the reactive rather than proactive. Anyone who says "I'm young, I'm healthy, I don't need healthcare" is taking this position (I've done it). Anyone who says "I don't need a will, I'll wait till I'm retired" is taking this position. Ah, fuck it, I'm not going to fix that oil leak; I'll just add a quart when I need to. Any woman out there ever think "well, I COULD demand a condom, but... eh, he said he'll pull out, so I'll deal with it tomorrow."?
f nothing else, it makes a certain logic: if you think either one could - COULD, not WOULD - hurt you, and you take the vaccine and still get sick, you're taking BOTH. If you say screw it, and just see if you get sick - not EVERY unvaccinated person has or will get COVID - and take the Ivermectin, you're only getting one dose of "bad". (There have been 42 million cases or thereabouts, and 150 million unvaccinated at this point).
It's not all that odd, actually.
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I have no fucking clue who that is.
I suppose you don't think anyone are morons, idiots, or crazy? At least, in conversational language?
(https://i.imgur.com/YtriSSe.jpg)
Whenever he gets one over on someone else (selling cars), he goes "Wooooo!" like David Lee Roth and points. I tried to find a clip of it but no dice (except for a tequila ad).
I think MOST people are morons, idiots or crazy. What I THINK doesn't matter. If I'm trying to understand someone and more importantly trying to convince someone of an alternate path, then no, it doesn't come up. And before you say "well I'm here, they're not, it doesn't matter", I say it DOES matter. Can we just use the N-word if there are no African Americans around? Of course not. if I had a dime for every PM I've ever gotten here or at MP to the effect of "well, I'd love to participate in P/R but I'd be in over my head" I'd be, well, buying Richard Rawlings' tequila. And part of that is people not wanting to be called morons, idiots or crazy if someone disagrees with their idea.
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Stads, you are the best Thesaurus on DTF.
Call me Roget. :tup
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Stads, you are the best Thesaurus on DTF.
:rollin
You owe me an iced tea fucker. And a new shirt.
Cheffie Poo ring a bell? :lol
Stads, you are the best Thesaurus on DTF.
Call me Roget. :tup
Ha!
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FDA approval means little to me, either way, especially without long-term data.
I suspect this is where we disagree, because while we definitely could agree on a number of things, chiefly: corporate boards that run companies like Pfizer being driven by self-interest and profit alone; the government being corrupt; regulatory bodies being imperfect and inconsistent; the media being out of control, and so on, at the end of the day, it's still the best bet to stick with the guidance. Because what is the alternative?
I'm sure we all have tolerances for how closely we follow the guidance. There were things my family did that were not recommended, as I'm sure the same is true for you and your family. But that vaccine? That's the best shot we've got at getting back to normal. At this point, even if the whole thing were one big lie, just to line Pfizer's pockets, I'd take the damn thing, just to get it over with. Because what else can you do? *I* don't believe it's a big lie, in fact I know plenty of people who've been negatively affected, some even fatally. But, just sayin'...
I totally get where you're coming from... that the powers-that-be lie to us when they're at their worst, and even when they're at their best, fail to stop the myriad of incentives from causing terrible chain reactions that lead humanity down paths it would not have deliberately chosen. Sadly, change doesn't happen overnight, and improvements come slowly... this has been our species from Day Zero. It just takes time.
Did you watch/listen to the Jimmy Dore clip I posted with Dr. Robert Malone on page 55 of this thread? He discusses that inquiry, and his answer may be the solution. He said something along the lines of "we won't be able to vaccinate our way out of the pandemic" and talked about the reasons why, much of it was natural exposure for every human being is necessary, and why the vaccines won't work long term for the entire population of the planet. If he's wrong, I'd like to hear why from another member of the medical community by dissecting his reasoning, not just "well, he's wrong" or "well, he's a quack".
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"My kid being sick" is not a standard by which others need to operate, and in fact, sometimes - SOMETIMES - it's the others who have the cooler head and the broader vision to maintain perspective.
Question to you .... if the reason my kid is sick is directly BECAUSE of the way that others operate, does that change your stance. Alternatively, let's replace "sick" with "bullied"... does the same perspective or standard apply?
This is exactly what I was going to post. When someone else's behaviors affect my kids' health, we have a problem.
Does covid mimic a bad chest cold? Yes. I was reasonably certain that he didn't have covid (my daughter tested negative a week before, and he probably picked up her cold). But he'd also been at preschool twice this week and could have picked it up from a kid there. Is there a good chance that kid's family doesn't adhere to covid mitigations (mask wearing when required, being vaccinated) based on where I live? Yes.
It pisses me off so much to see these parents holding anti-mask/anti vax protests in the surrounding suburbs while I am driving a sick little boy to the hospital and while my wife is up all night long worrying that he could have covid. It's absolutely not fair to others to knowingly disregard public health measures. I know covid is here to stay and once my kids can get vaccinated, I'll let up on this belief. But until then, I have every right to be angry at others for their behavior when it can potentially impact my kid. We have worked so hard to keep our family healthy. My wife felt like a failure yesterday when she thought he might have covid, on her birthday no less. He's 3 - half of his life has been spent either staying closer to home or wearing a mask, so a cold just took root in his chest with his immune system not having to do much work for the last year. Had that been covid, he might have been in really, really bad shape.
You have to consider that mask mandates (AFAIK) aren't mandating the masks that actually do anything, like the N95s with a filter. They're just telling people "wear a mask dammit". Most people walking around with a mask on are either wearing surgical masks which do next to nothing, or a cloth mask or self-made one, which do absolutely nothing at preventing spread. So unless the government/schools are mandating the right kind of masks, it's all quite silly.
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I have no fucking clue who that is.
I suppose you don't think anyone are morons, idiots, or crazy? At least, in conversational language?
(https://i.imgur.com/YtriSSe.jpg)
Whenever he gets one over on someone else (selling cars), he goes "Wooooo!" like David Lee Roth and points. I tried to find a clip of it but no dice (except for a tequila ad).
I think MOST people are morons, idiots or crazy. What I THINK doesn't matter. If I'm trying to understand someone and more importantly trying to convince someone of an alternate path, then no, it doesn't come up. And before you say "well I'm here, they're not, it doesn't matter", I say it DOES matter. Can we just use the N-word if there are no African Americans around? Of course not. if I had a dime for every PM I've ever gotten here or at MP to the effect of "well, I'd love to participate in P/R but I'd be in over my head" I'd be, well, buying Richard Rawlings' tequila. And part of that is people not wanting to be called morons, idiots or crazy if someone disagrees with their idea.
Hey I've met Richard Rawlings - nicest guy in the world and won the Cannonball Run twice - in a truck! :metal
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I’m vaccinated and I tend to trust the scientists…but something that’s being hinted at really resonates with me. Doctors parroting what they are told.
Every doctor I’ve seen in the better part of the last two decades basically listens to your symptoms, takes your personal info and vitals, and punches it all into WebMD, and then they do what it tells them. It tends to make people feel like they are just part of a machine. The whole process just makes you feel like you’re one step closer to that scene in Idiocracy.
Things like that make people think being a doctor isn't some specialized skill either, that anyone could do it (which isn't true, but things like that make people feel that way) or that doctors are just tools of the establishment and they exist to do their bidding, like cops.
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"My kid being sick" is not a standard by which others need to operate, and in fact, sometimes - SOMETIMES - it's the others who have the cooler head and the broader vision to maintain perspective.
Question to you .... if the reason my kid is sick is directly BECAUSE of the way that others operate, does that change your stance. Alternatively, let's replace "sick" with "bullied"... does the same perspective or standard apply?
This is exactly what I was going to post. When someone else's behaviors affect my kids' health, we have a problem.
Does covid mimic a bad chest cold? Yes. I was reasonably certain that he didn't have covid (my daughter tested negative a week before, and he probably picked up her cold). But he'd also been at preschool twice this week and could have picked it up from a kid there. Is there a good chance that kid's family doesn't adhere to covid mitigations (mask wearing when required, being vaccinated) based on where I live? Yes.
It pisses me off so much to see these parents holding anti-mask/anti vax protests in the surrounding suburbs while I am driving a sick little boy to the hospital and while my wife is up all night long worrying that he could have covid. It's absolutely not fair to others to knowingly disregard public health measures. I know covid is here to stay and once my kids can get vaccinated, I'll let up on this belief. But until then, I have every right to be angry at others for their behavior when it can potentially impact my kid. We have worked so hard to keep our family healthy. My wife felt like a failure yesterday when she thought he might have covid, on her birthday no less. He's 3 - half of his life has been spent either staying closer to home or wearing a mask, so a cold just took root in his chest with his immune system not having to do much work for the last year. Had that been covid, he might have been in really, really bad shape.
You have to consider that mask mandates (AFAIK) aren't mandating the masks that actually do anything, like the N95s with a filter. They're just telling people "wear a mask dammit". Most people walking around with a mask on are either wearing surgical masks which do next to nothing, or a cloth mask or self-made one, which do absolutely nothing at preventing spread. So unless the government/schools are mandating the right kind of masks, it's all quite silly.
Doctors don't wear masks during surgery to protect themselves. They where them to protect the patients. Same rules apply. If everybody wore masks we could cut transmission by a significant amount. No, it wouldn't cure the pandemic, but it would decrease the size of outbreaks. If 40% of the population refuse to wear them then you're right, they're meaningless. Joke's on us, I guess. :lol
And for what it's worth, I wear an N95 mask for my own benefit.
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FDA approval means little to me, either way, especially without long-term data.
I suspect this is where we disagree, because while we definitely could agree on a number of things, chiefly: corporate boards that run companies like Pfizer being driven by self-interest and profit alone; the government being corrupt; regulatory bodies being imperfect and inconsistent; the media being out of control, and so on, at the end of the day, it's still the best bet to stick with the guidance. Because what is the alternative?
I'm sure we all have tolerances for how closely we follow the guidance. There were things my family did that were not recommended, as I'm sure the same is true for you and your family. But that vaccine? That's the best shot we've got at getting back to normal. At this point, even if the whole thing were one big lie, just to line Pfizer's pockets, I'd take the damn thing, just to get it over with. Because what else can you do? *I* don't believe it's a big lie, in fact I know plenty of people who've been negatively affected, some even fatally. But, just sayin'...
I totally get where you're coming from... that the powers-that-be lie to us when they're at their worst, and even when they're at their best, fail to stop the myriad of incentives from causing terrible chain reactions that lead humanity down paths it would not have deliberately chosen. Sadly, change doesn't happen overnight, and improvements come slowly... this has been our species from Day Zero. It just takes time.
Did you watch/listen to the Jimmy Dore clip I posted with Dr. Robert Malone on page 55 of this thread? He discusses that inquiry, and his answer may be the solution. He said something along the lines of "we won't be able to vaccinate our way out of the pandemic" and talked about the reasons why, much of it was natural exposure for every human being is necessary, and why the vaccines won't work long term for the entire population of the planet. If he's wrong, I'd like to hear why from another member of the medical community by dissecting his reasoning, not just "well, he's wrong" or "well, he's a quack".
And did he cover the bit I referred to (and posted a study for last week) about vaccines covering a broader spectrum of mutations than natural immunity, which will typically only cover the source infection? If every single person on the planet got Covid tomorrow, it wouldn't solve the problem. It'd just explode the number of mutations overnight, rather than gradually over time. I'm not a doctor, but the logic suggests that if every person got vaccinated tomorrow, the creation of new mutations might actually cease at some point, as the number of available walking Petri dishes was slashed to a tiny fraction of what there are now.
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FDA advisory panel soundly shoots down booster shots for most Americans.
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FDA approval means little to me, either way, especially without long-term data.
I suspect this is where we disagree, because while we definitely could agree on a number of things, chiefly: corporate boards that run companies like Pfizer being driven by self-interest and profit alone; the government being corrupt; regulatory bodies being imperfect and inconsistent; the media being out of control, and so on, at the end of the day, it's still the best bet to stick with the guidance. Because what is the alternative?
I'm sure we all have tolerances for how closely we follow the guidance. There were things my family did that were not recommended, as I'm sure the same is true for you and your family. But that vaccine? That's the best shot we've got at getting back to normal. At this point, even if the whole thing were one big lie, just to line Pfizer's pockets, I'd take the damn thing, just to get it over with. Because what else can you do? *I* don't believe it's a big lie, in fact I know plenty of people who've been negatively affected, some even fatally. But, just sayin'...
I totally get where you're coming from... that the powers-that-be lie to us when they're at their worst, and even when they're at their best, fail to stop the myriad of incentives from causing terrible chain reactions that lead humanity down paths it would not have deliberately chosen. Sadly, change doesn't happen overnight, and improvements come slowly... this has been our species from Day Zero. It just takes time.
Did you watch/listen to the Jimmy Dore clip I posted with Dr. Robert Malone on page 55 of this thread? He discusses that inquiry, and his answer may be the solution. He said something along the lines of "we won't be able to vaccinate our way out of the pandemic" and talked about the reasons why, much of it was natural exposure for every human being is necessary, and why the vaccines won't work long term for the entire population of the planet. If he's wrong, I'd like to hear why from another member of the medical community by dissecting his reasoning, not just "well, he's wrong" or "well, he's a quack".
And did he cover the bit I referred to (and posted a study for last week) about vaccines covering a broader spectrum of mutations than natural immunity, which will typically only cover the source infection? If every single person on the planet got Covid tomorrow, it wouldn't solve the problem. It'd just explode the number of mutations overnight, rather than gradually over time. I'm not a doctor, but the logic suggests that if every person got vaccinated tomorrow, the creation of new mutations might actually cease at some point, as the number of available walking Petri dishes was slashed to a tiny fraction of what there are now.
From what I recall, he explained that the virus finds a way around the vaccines, and that the vaccinated wind up being the super spreaders.
I could be mixing a statement or two up, I'll have to re-watch soon.
Everyone should just watch the interview, so you're not hearing it from me, since I'm not a medical professional.
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Did you watch/listen to the Jimmy Dore clip I posted with Dr. Robert Malone on page 55 of this thread? He discusses that inquiry, and his answer may be the solution. He said something along the lines of "we won't be able to vaccinate our way out of the pandemic" and talked about the reasons why, much of it was natural exposure for every human being is necessary, and why the vaccines won't work long term for the entire population of the planet. If he's wrong, I'd like to hear why from another member of the medical community by dissecting his reasoning, not just "well, he's wrong" or "well, he's a quack".
I don't have a ton of tolerance for Dore, so no. But I think the Atlantic article you dismissed earlier was a little bit more levelly reasoned than you may be giving credit. Other than that, isn't this along the lines of what the FDA are currently debating (i.e., whether boosters should be happening, or whether we should be transitioning to a more sustainable pattern of boosting the elderly/at risk after the mass populations get their initial inoculations).
I don't think there are many debating that initial inoculations aren't key to getting us out of the worst of the pandemic. But I agree that complete COVID eradication is probably never happening now. With that in mind, I do think it is more than fair to ask whether we should really be talking about boosters, or whether we should, as the WHO recommended, be focusing on initial inoculations for the mass population (even when we know some people's minds will never be changed) and then providing boosters for those who really need them going forward. These are all fair questions.
As an aside, the fact that the Biden admin have already positioned themselves as wanting to provide boosters to the full population against the WHO's guidance and outside of FDA internal controls is a bit concerning - but doesn't it also put at least a chink in the idea that the WHO, the FDA and Biden are all bedmates in some conspiracy?
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You have to consider that mask mandates (AFAIK) aren't mandating the masks that actually do anything, like the N95s with a filter. They're just telling people "wear a mask dammit". Most people walking around with a mask on are either wearing surgical masks which do next to nothing, or a cloth mask or self-made one, which do absolutely nothing at preventing spread. So unless the government/schools are mandating the right kind of masks, it's all quite silly.
There was an extensive randomized study conducted in Bangladesh, and the results straight up debunk the claim of properly worn surgical masks not preventing spread.
Washington Post article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/01/masks-study-covid-bangladesh/
Actual preprint: https://www.poverty-action.org/sites/default/files/publications/Mask_RCT____Symptomatic_Seropositivity_083121.pdf
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In b4 Washington Post is biased rag journalism.
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Did you watch/listen to the Jimmy Dore clip I posted with Dr. Robert Malone on page 55 of this thread? He discusses that inquiry, and his answer may be the solution. He said something along the lines of "we won't be able to vaccinate our way out of the pandemic" and talked about the reasons why, much of it was natural exposure for every human being is necessary, and why the vaccines won't work long term for the entire population of the planet. If he's wrong, I'd like to hear why from another member of the medical community by dissecting his reasoning, not just "well, he's wrong" or "well, he's a quack".
I don't have a ton of tolerance for Dore, so no.
Luckily for you, Dore shuts up most of the time, allowing the doctor to speak uninterrupted for the majority of the video.
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FDA approval means little to me, either way, especially without long-term data.
I suspect this is where we disagree, because while we definitely could agree on a number of things, chiefly: corporate boards that run companies like Pfizer being driven by self-interest and profit alone; the government being corrupt; regulatory bodies being imperfect and inconsistent; the media being out of control, and so on, at the end of the day, it's still the best bet to stick with the guidance. Because what is the alternative?
I'm sure we all have tolerances for how closely we follow the guidance. There were things my family did that were not recommended, as I'm sure the same is true for you and your family. But that vaccine? That's the best shot we've got at getting back to normal. At this point, even if the whole thing were one big lie, just to line Pfizer's pockets, I'd take the damn thing, just to get it over with. Because what else can you do? *I* don't believe it's a big lie, in fact I know plenty of people who've been negatively affected, some even fatally. But, just sayin'...
I totally get where you're coming from... that the powers-that-be lie to us when they're at their worst, and even when they're at their best, fail to stop the myriad of incentives from causing terrible chain reactions that lead humanity down paths it would not have deliberately chosen. Sadly, change doesn't happen overnight, and improvements come slowly... this has been our species from Day Zero. It just takes time.
Did you watch/listen to the Jimmy Dore clip I posted with Dr. Robert Malone on page 55 of this thread? He discusses that inquiry, and his answer may be the solution. He said something along the lines of "we won't be able to vaccinate our way out of the pandemic" and talked about the reasons why, much of it was natural exposure for every human being is necessary, and why the vaccines won't work long term for the entire population of the planet. If he's wrong, I'd like to hear why from another member of the medical community by dissecting his reasoning, not just "well, he's wrong" or "well, he's a quack".
And did he cover the bit I referred to (and posted a study for last week) about vaccines covering a broader spectrum of mutations than natural immunity, which will typically only cover the source infection? If every single person on the planet got Covid tomorrow, it wouldn't solve the problem. It'd just explode the number of mutations overnight, rather than gradually over time. I'm not a doctor, but the logic suggests that if every person got vaccinated tomorrow, the creation of new mutations might actually cease at some point, as the number of available walking Petri dishes was slashed to a tiny fraction of what there are now.
From what I recall, he explained that the virus finds a way around the vaccines, and that the vaccinated wind up being the super spreaders.
I could be mixing a statement or two up, I'll have to re-watch soon.
Everyone should just watch the interview, so you're not hearing it from me, since I'm not a medical professional.
Most people do not want to waste their precious time on long videos.
I find this concept of "Precious Time Spent" to be really fascinating in how much our time is scheduled around a routine that any distraction to it ends up almost becoming burdensome for some people. And how it relates and has effects to the concepts of Routine and Time Management. It's a reason why I also love The Astonishing as it has this concept with the people in the story not having any precious time to be wasted on music.
Did you watch/listen to the Jimmy Dore clip I posted with Dr. Robert Malone on page 55 of this thread? He discusses that inquiry, and his answer may be the solution. He said something along the lines of "we won't be able to vaccinate our way out of the pandemic" and talked about the reasons why, much of it was natural exposure for every human being is necessary, and why the vaccines won't work long term for the entire population of the planet. If he's wrong, I'd like to hear why from another member of the medical community by dissecting his reasoning, not just "well, he's wrong" or "well, he's a quack".
I don't have a ton of tolerance for Dore, so no. But I think the Atlantic article you dismissed earlier was a little bit more levelly reasoned than you may be giving credit. Other than that, isn't this along the lines of what the FDA are currently debating (i.e., whether boosters should be happening, or whether we should be transitioning to a more sustainable pattern of boosting the elderly/at risk after the mass populations get their initial inoculations).
I don't think there are many debating that initial inoculations aren't key to getting us out of the worst of the pandemic. But I agree that complete COVID eradication is probably never happening now. With that in mind, I do think it is more than fair to ask whether we should really be talking about boosters, or whether we should, as the WHO recommended, be focusing on initial inoculations for the mass population (even when we know some people's minds will never be changed) and then providing boosters for those who really need them going forward. These are all fair questions.
As an aside, the fact that the Biden admin have already positioned themselves as wanting to provide boosters to the full population against the WHO's guidance and outside of FDA internal controls is a bit concerning - but doesn't it also put at least a chink in the idea that the WHO, the FDA and Biden are all bedmates in some conspiracy?
I am finding the effects of people "biding their time", "waiting it out" to be quite telling. Only in regards to how the authorities figures are utilizing the power. And there are studies out there that show what happens when people do have that power of authority and how far it can go.
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:corn
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You have to consider that mask mandates (AFAIK) aren't mandating the masks that actually do anything, like the N95s with a filter. They're just telling people "wear a mask dammit". Most people walking around with a mask on are either wearing surgical masks which do next to nothing, or a cloth mask or self-made one, which do absolutely nothing at preventing spread. So unless the government/schools are mandating the right kind of masks, it's all quite silly.
There was an extensive randomized study conducted in Bangladesh, and the results straight up debunk the claim of properly worn surgical masks not preventing spread.
Washington Post article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/01/masks-study-covid-bangladesh/
Actual preprint: https://www.poverty-action.org/sites/default/files/publications/Mask_RCT____Symptomatic_Seropositivity_083121.pdf
I can't read it right now, and I apologize if this is covered already, but the problem is people don't always wear a fresh clean mask, or put one on with clean, sanitized hands. People also fidget with their mask often, take it off, put it back on, wear it under their nose, remove it to rest under their chin, hang them around their rear view mirror in their car, and on and on. Then you have people with the vax thinking they don't need to wear one anymore, at least that was their thinking a few months back, and no stores requiring masks since a few months back as well due to 'recommendations'.
Then there's the fact that you have bad messaging from the world's governments (especially the USA) and medical community. Fauci lied about needing masks at the onset of the pandemic. Then said you need a mask. The said you should wear two masks. That gets people thinking they're making it up as they go, and at best, are straight lying to the masses, which they did, and people are worked up over this covid shit for the last 19 months now. That is a recipe for disaster. Fauci also lied for a 2nd time to Congress the other day, about Gain of Function research at the Wuhan China lab. Any random US citizen would have been jailed by now for something like that, forget the fact that this virus has caused the deaths of MILLIONS of people around the world.
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I believe I am the second smartest person here (Adami is smartest, but he will disagree with me on principle, and so I'm back to number one).
:clap:
On the rest of your post ... we'll agree to disagree, including the part where you say you ARE right. You may be, but there are points where I may be right.
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Eating horse pills from the feed store? Moron. Taking it in a responsible measure, despite no prescription? Not a moron.
It does beg the question ... how does one come to the conclusion that taking Ivermectin is a reasonable thing to do to combat COVID, but taking a vaccine is not?
Approved for that use? Vax - yes; IV - no
Researched and studied and peer reviewed for that use? Vax - yes; IV - no
Long term research? Vax - no; IV - no
100s of millions of real-world data points available? Vax - yes; IV - no
Under those four criteria alone, I just can't wrap my head around someone being anti-vax, but pro Ivermectin. Under what criteria does Ivermectin come out on top?
Plenty of people opt for the reactive rather than proactive. Anyone who says "I'm young, I'm healthy, I don't need healthcare" is taking this position (I've done it). Anyone who says "I don't need a will, I'll wait till I'm retired" is taking this position. Ah, fuck it, I'm not going to fix that oil leak; I'll just add a quart when I need to. Any woman out there ever think "well, I COULD demand a condom, but... eh, he said he'll pull out, so I'll deal with it tomorrow."?
f nothing else, it makes a certain logic: if you think either one could - COULD, not WOULD - hurt you, and you take the vaccine and still get sick, you're taking BOTH. If you say screw it, and just see if you get sick - not EVERY unvaccinated person has or will get COVID - and take the Ivermectin, you're only getting one dose of "bad". (There have been 42 million cases or thereabouts, and 150 million unvaccinated at this point).
It's not all that odd, actually.
Is there anything you don't have a counter-point to? :biggrin: You make good points, even if they're largely irrelevant in the face of a global pandemic. My point on this matter, is that the arguments against vaccination are largely also arguments against something like Ivermectin, but people are still willing to explore the latter. That's what I don't understand. I get some people are procrastinators - at the expense of there own lives and livelihood. That wasn't my point.
But if that was my point, I guess I'm just one of those kinds of people that subscribes to the notion that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure - literally in this sense. I'm not sure I've ever heard the saying 'why take a ounce of prevention when an a pound of cure is gonna be a bigger risk than reward'.
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surgical masks which do next to nothing,
Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you. Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.
You really don't know much about these things do you? I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.
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surgical masks which do next to nothing,
Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you. Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.
You really don't know much about these things do you? I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.
Don't bother, the only thing you'll succeed in doing is adding damage to your eventual carpal tunnel.
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surgical masks which do next to nothing,
Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you. Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.
You really don't know much about these things do you? I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.
I'm not claiming to be an expert. From what I've read from various sources (they even say it on the packaging) that those blue or white surgical mask do little, if anything, to stop the spread of coronaviruses.
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surgical masks which do next to nothing,
Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you. Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.
You really don't know much about these things do you? I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.
I'm not claiming to be an expert. From what I've read from various sources (they even say it on the packaging) that those blue or white surgical mask do little, if anything, to stop the spread of coronaviruses.
Well thank the stars mine is black.
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Second FDA vote is unanimous in favor of boosters for the elderly and those at high risk, so I guess my diabetic ass needs to roll up the sleeves again.
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Second FDA vote is unanimous in favor of boosters for the elderly and those at high risk, so I guess my diabetic ass needs to roll up the sleeves again.
I spoke with the pharmacist in my store last week and merely being diabetic doesn't get me on the "high risk" list yet.
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surgical masks which do next to nothing,
Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you. Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.
You really don't know much about these things do you? I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.
I'm not claiming to be an expert. From what I've read from various sources (they even say it on the packaging) that those blue or white surgical mask do little, if anything, to stop the spread of coronaviruses.
You know how they tested the efficacy of various masks against the virus? They had covid patients put on masks and cough directly onto petri dishes of agar. Those cheapo surgical masks you see people wear actually do help. Are they impervious? Of course not. Can germs still get around them? Obviously. They don't seal all that well. Do they keep people from shooting directed streams of covid all over the guy in front of them? Yeah, they actually do pretty well at that. As they say, perfection is the enemy of good. Even though those masks worn loosely are only 39% effective, don't you see how that's better than 0? Seems to me that if wearing a cheap mask that doesn't even do much to restrict your breathing or make your nose hurt could reduce the spread by 25%, that's a pretty worthy step, and you'd be kind of a dick to ignore that.
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surgical masks which do next to nothing,
Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you. Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.
You really don't know much about these things do you? I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.
Don't bother, the only thing you'll succeed in doing is adding damage to your eventual carpal tunnel.
I haven't really determined if he's open to receiving new data yet. My hunch is no, but I'm not ruling it out. I do know that he's been respectful and presented his arguments reasonably well. I wouldn't be engaging with him otherwise. I see no reason to be rude in dismissing him out of hand. He's conducting himself far better than most of his mindset, so I'm content to treat him better than most of those numbskulls.
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surgical masks which do next to nothing,
Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you. Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.
You really don't know much about these things do you? I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.
I'm not claiming to be an expert. From what I've read from various sources (they even say it on the packaging) that those blue or white surgical mask do little, if anything, to stop the spread of coronaviruses.
Well thank the stars mine is black.
You owe me a coffee and a keyboard.
Saying masks don't work is like saying seatbelts don't work. If the measurement is 100% effectiveness against virus spread or injury from a car accident, then of course neither work.
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surgical masks which do next to nothing,
Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you. Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.
You really don't know much about these things do you? I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.
Don't bother, the only thing you'll succeed in doing is adding damage to your eventual carpal tunnel.
I haven't really determined if he's open to receiving new data yet. My hunch is no, but I'm not ruling it out. I do know that he's been respectful and presented his arguments reasonably well. I wouldn't be engaging with him otherwise. I see no reason to be rude in dismissing him out of hand. He's conducting himself far better than most of his mindset, so I'm content to treat him better than most of those numbskulls.
This post isn't totally unfair, but I do have to ask.... how high are you right now? :lol
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This is where I will reluctantly agree with Stadler’s point. If the people kind and polite and informative are getting nowhere (which it appears) and the people being snarky and mocking are getting equally nowhere, why bother with the negativity? If someone is secure in their position and shows no sign of wanting to question it much, then I say leave it be. Adding to the toxicity isn’t doing much.
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;D
surgical masks which do next to nothing,
Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you. Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.
You really don't know much about these things do you? I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.
Don't bother, the only thing you'll succeed in doing is adding damage to your eventual carpal tunnel.
I haven't really determined if he's open to receiving new data yet. My hunch is no, but I'm not ruling it out. I do know that he's been respectful and presented his arguments reasonably well. I wouldn't be engaging with him otherwise. I see no reason to be rude in dismissing him out of hand. He's conducting himself far better than most of his mindset, so I'm content to treat him better than most of those numbskulls.
I get that, and do agree compared to what I've seen elsewhere, but I just harken back to your dancing goalposts gif. No matter the presentation, the rhetoric will always be fluidic to fit the mindset.
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surgical masks which do next to nothing,
Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you. Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.
You really don't know much about these things do you? I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.
Don't bother, the only thing you'll succeed in doing is adding damage to your eventual carpal tunnel.
I haven't really determined if he's open to receiving new data yet. My hunch is no, but I'm not ruling it out. I do know that he's been respectful and presented his arguments reasonably well. I wouldn't be engaging with him otherwise. I see no reason to be rude in dismissing him out of hand. He's conducting himself far better than most of his mindset, so I'm content to treat him better than most of those numbskulls.
This post isn't totally unfair, but I do have to ask.... how high are you right now? :lol
Still at the office. It'll be a couple of hours before I get started on that.
Really, I think people are kind of proving Stadler's point here. I don't exclude myself in that, either. I've had to check my contempt a few times, with varying degrees of success. But so long as he's being respectful, and so long as I think he's arguing in good faith, I see no reason not to do the same.
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This will all make a great eulogy.
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Second FDA vote is unanimous in favor of boosters for the elderly and those at high risk, so I guess my diabetic ass needs to roll up the sleeves again.
I would go see a doctor and ask if you're case of diabetes is severe enough for you to take a booster.
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Second FDA vote is unanimous in favor of boosters for the elderly and those at high risk, so I guess my diabetic ass needs to roll up the sleeves again.
I would go see a doctor and ask if you're case of diabetes is severe enough for you to take a booster.
I'm always in contact with my GP and my diabetic care team concerning any medical decisions. One thing Kaiser is fantastic about is putting a system in place that heavily favors preventative medicine which works great for those willing to work it.
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Knox County Mayor Glenn Jacobs said his county would not comply with the lawless order.
“In Knox County, we know what we stand for. We stand for freedom. We stand for the rule of law. We stand for the Constitution,” Jacobs said in a letter addressed to the president. “And you can rest assured that we will stand against your blatant and egregious executive overreach.”
Biden's done it now, he's pissed off the Big Red Machine.
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Knox County Mayor Glenn Jacobs said his county would not comply with the lawless order.
“In Knox County, we know what we stand for. We stand for freedom. We stand for the rule of law. We stand for the Constitution,” Jacobs said in a letter addressed to the president. “And you can rest assured that we will stand against your blatant and egregious executive overreach.”
Biden's done it now, he's pissed off the Big Red Machine.
They don't go for that shit way up Rocky Top
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Knox County Mayor Glenn Jacobs said his county would not comply with the lawless order.
“In Knox County, we know what we stand for. We stand for freedom. We stand for the rule of law. We stand for the Constitution,” Jacobs said in a letter addressed to the president. “And you can rest assured that we will stand against your blatant and egregious executive overreach.”
Biden's done it now, he's pissed off the Big Red Machine.
Sweet, I smell a Tombstone the president scenario or set him on fire. He's already delivered a Tombstone to a priest before. Heck, long ago before Trump became president, Stone Cold Steve Austin gave a stunner to the prior president and one to that one person in Trump's cabinet that overseas something in small businesses or whatever position that Linda McMahon had in Trump's cabinet. Sports Entertainment is wacky that way.
I mean, I didn't expect Glenn Jacobs to give a different answer at all.
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Boston Globe article.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/nurses-have-had-enough-of-this-nonsense/ar-AAOAj1e?ocid=hplocalnews
My mother worked in the OR in this hospital for years when I was growing up.
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https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/it-will-take-five-years-for-some-hospitals-to-catch-up-with-patient-backlog-after-covid-experts-warn/ar-BB1fLLVS
Even if people had gotten vaccinated. These Healthcare workers would not be getting rest, and would then have to shift their attention to this backlog of patients that were put on hold. And who is to say this won't be how these healthcare workers feel here in the US. Now they complain about the unvaccinated still getting covid, and not wanting to treat them. But yet, they will still likely complain about this and still walk out of the workplace and force many people to go without care. ???
These latest concerns follow a row over medics' wages, with many claiming they will leave the profession, causing catastrophic staff shortages, if the government doesn't improve salaries across the board.
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Ben, you have to know how stressed these employees are on the front line. Add that if they get affected being vaccinated, at least the symptoms are extremely lessened.
You keep forgetting to point that out. It you were in their position, you would have a better understanding.
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Ben, you have to know how stressed these employees are on the front line. Add that if they get affected being vaccinated, at least the symptoms are extremely lessened.
You keep forgetting to point that out. It you were in their position, you would have a better understanding.
When haven't they been stressed. Even before Covid-19, some of them were complaining about the stress of being overworked and overwhelmed with little pay and leave.
What they want isn't going to be solved with not having an influx of Covid patients. That profession is not one that is not stressful, it's highly stressful and very emotional. Not everyone can handle it and not everyone is capable of being in that field. This is where a person intent on being in that profession gets tested. Did they do it for the money? Did they do it because they care? Or did they do it because they just chose to do that and it's not what their passion was to be?
This stems from that effect of praising people to the status of heroes and gods. That status offered can create the big head effect of a swollen ego. Which can lead to someone who is desperately wanting to be noticed and seen will take that profession with the intent to be noticed and praised as that hero.
I feel sympathy for them because their profession is not that well handled. It's the same sympathy I have for the teachers. It's not their fault for the stress they are dealing with. I feel the main problem lies with the system and that is what needs to be dealt with in order for these workers to not become so stressed and mentally overwhelmed to where they end up getting that emotion of resentment to those people they should be taking care of regardless if that person made a stupid choice to be in the hospital in the first place.
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My wife works at a hospital and there is no swollen egos as you think. Just lots of stress.
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My wife works at a hospital and there is no swollen egos as you think. Just lots of stress.
My wife is a nurse educator and every hospital she visits she says the same thing.
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Dr. Joseph Fraiman says, "I know many think the vaccine hesitant are dumb or just misinformed. That's not at all what I've seen, in fact typically independent of education level, the vaccine hesitant I've met in the ER are more familiar with vaccine studies and more aware of their own Covid risk than the vaccinated."
"FDA committee meets to debate and vote on Covid booster shots for the general public — 9/17/21"
https://youtu.be/bQevYc2jX7Y?t=14963
Did you guys see this...Very, very interesting discussions being made by the FDA committee. :corn
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Lot of good all that familiarity with studies did those people in the ER. They still came to the conclusion that NOT getting vaccinated was a safer measure than getting vaccinated. Apparently they were wrong.
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Lot of good all that familiarity with studies did those people in the ER. They still came to the conclusion that NOT getting vaccinated was a safer measure than getting vaccinated. Apparently they were wrong.
The point is that they did not do a large enough trial to prove to the vaccine hesitant these do not have any harm done at all. That's all he wanted. Which is what they should have done originally. And is what some of the vaccine hesitant also want as well, to be shown that data that proves it to them.
Which they requested and these doctors couldn't provide the information because it hasn't been done, and they can't prove it. Which shows that they actually ask more questions and are more concerned and aware of the risk of covid and it's effects more so than the vaccinated that voluntarily rolled-up, and likely did not ask these questions that the vaccine hesitant asked and ask for data that proves what the doctors say.
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And another doctor later went on to talk about this conclusion of booster vaccinations...
"Booster vaccinations may offset "Social Hesitancy" of those who fear social interactions with anyone else and are thus isolated."
Keyword there is Fear. Many people have high Social Hesitancy, and this is one term that I have not heard discussed and talked about. And I feel this should also be addressed with how this pandemic has effected people's mentality.
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In a pandemic, you don't have time for years of trials Ben. You have to get the vaccine out right away once they knew it's impact on the virus and on the recipients.
Honestly I don't think the % is high on those you can change. Doesn't mean they shouldn't try because any minds changed is a good thing. I just think many dug in and will no change their minds.
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Lot of good all that familiarity with studies did those people in the ER. They still came to the conclusion that NOT getting vaccinated was a safer measure than getting vaccinated. Apparently they were wrong.
The point is that they did not do a large enough trial to prove to the vaccine hesitant these do not have any harm done at all. That's all he wanted. Which is what they should have done originally. And is what some of the vaccine hesitant also want as well, to be shown that data that proves it to them.
Which they requested and these doctors couldn't provide the information because it hasn't been done, and they can't prove it. Which shows that they actually ask more questions and are more concerned and aware of the risk of covid and it's effects more so than the vaccinated that voluntarily rolled-up, and likely did not ask these questions that the vaccine hesitant asked and ask for data that proves what the doctors say.
:andydt:
At this point, 10 months and 100s of millions of doses delivered proves more than any controlled trials might.
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Then here's Dr. Peter Doshi talking about doctors licenses being revoked if they speak about any covid vaccine misinformation, and how it's concerning when there is still clearly many unknowns...It's better if you just watch and listen. I could type it up all up for you again.
https://youtu.be/bQevYc2jX7Y?t=15779
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Lot of good all that familiarity with studies did those people in the ER. They still came to the conclusion that NOT getting vaccinated was a safer measure than getting vaccinated. Apparently they were wrong.
The point is that they did not do a large enough trial to prove to the vaccine hesitant these do not have any harm done at all. That's all he wanted. Which is what they should have done originally. And is what some of the vaccine hesitant also want as well, to be shown that data that proves it to them.
Which they requested and these doctors couldn't provide the information because it hasn't been done, and they can't prove it. Which shows that they actually ask more questions and are more concerned and aware of the risk of covid and it's effects more so than the vaccinated that voluntarily rolled-up, and likely did not ask these questions that the vaccine hesitant asked and ask for data that proves what the doctors say.
:andydt:
At this point, 10 months and 100s of millions of doses delivered proves more than any controlled trials might.
Did you listen to this FDA commission meeting?
All I am doing is relaying what was said by the Doctors that spoke at this meeting. So you're calling those doctors opinions as bullshit, not mine.
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Dr. Joseph Fraiman says, "I know many think the vaccine hesitant are dumb or just misinformed. That's not at all what I've seen, in fact typically independent of education level, the vaccine hesitant I've met in the ER are more familiar with vaccine studies and more aware of their own Covid risk than the vaccinated."
"FDA committee meets to debate and vote on Covid booster shots for the general public — 9/17/21"
https://youtu.be/bQevYc2jX7Y?t=14963
Did you guys see this...Very, very interesting discussions being made by the FDA committee. :corn
The vaccine hesitant also account for 99% of the people on ventilators right now.
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Lot of good all that familiarity with studies did those people in the ER. They still came to the conclusion that NOT getting vaccinated was a safer measure than getting vaccinated. Apparently they were wrong.
The point is that they did not do a large enough trial to prove to the vaccine hesitant these do not have any harm done at all. That's all he wanted. Which is what they should have done originally. And is what some of the vaccine hesitant also want as well, to be shown that data that proves it to them.
Which they requested and these doctors couldn't provide the information because it hasn't been done, and they can't prove it. Which shows that they actually ask more questions and are more concerned and aware of the risk of covid and it's effects more so than the vaccinated that voluntarily rolled-up, and likely did not ask these questions that the vaccine hesitant asked and ask for data that proves what the doctors say.
:andydt:
At this point, 10 months and 100s of millions of doses delivered proves more than any controlled trials might.
Did you listen to this FDA commission meeting?
All I am doing is relaying what was said by the Doctors that spoke at this meeting. So you're calling those doctors opinions as bullshit, not mine.
No, I didn’t wade thru an 8+ hour video. So do me the favour of linking the exact time stamp of that video where any qualified individual states that the ‘vaccine hesitant’ are “more concerned and aware of the risks of COVID and it’s effects” than those that have taken the vaccine.
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Lot of good all that familiarity with studies did those people in the ER. They still came to the conclusion that NOT getting vaccinated was a safer measure than getting vaccinated. Apparently they were wrong.
The point is that they did not do a large enough trial to prove to the vaccine hesitant these do not have any harm done at all. That's all he wanted. Which is what they should have done originally. And is what some of the vaccine hesitant also want as well, to be shown that data that proves it to them.
Which they requested and these doctors couldn't provide the information because it hasn't been done, and they can't prove it. Which shows that they actually ask more questions and are more concerned and aware of the risk of covid and it's effects more so than the vaccinated that voluntarily rolled-up, and likely did not ask these questions that the vaccine hesitant asked and ask for data that proves what the doctors say.
:andydt:
At this point, 10 months and 100s of millions of doses delivered proves more than any controlled trials might.
Did you listen to this FDA commission meeting?
All I am doing is relaying what was said by the Doctors that spoke at this meeting. So you're calling those doctors opinions as bullshit, not mine.
No, I didn’t wade thru an 8+ hour video. So do me the favour of linking the exact time stamp of that video where any qualified individual states that the ‘vaccine hesitant’ are “more concerned and aware of the risks of COVID and it’s effects” than those that have taken the vaccine.
Just go back a page and it's right there at the bottom. I even typed the the quote up. And it is time-stamped.
Although he states....ones OWN risk of Covid. Everybody does not have the same risk of Covid, that's why if you are concerned of your health, you should have been going to your doctor so you can for sure assess your own risk of how severe your symptoms of Covid will be. And the other doctors they have speak have their presentations to show who is more at risk and who is not.
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Ok, fair. This one doctor did say that. And yes, I still call BS. This is his *opinion*. Unless he’s done his own study on tha matter, this is his opinion only. There’s lots of holes to be pointed out in his commentary, but my point still stands. His perception of the knowledge his ER patients have about their COVID risk didn’t prevent them from getting COVID.
He kinda lost his credibility when he leads with the stat that “ where I work” (New Orleans) is over 65% unvaccinated.
https://covidactnow.org/us/louisiana-la/county/orleans_parish/?s=23181238
66.8% vaccinated with at least one dose; 58% fully vaccinated. I tend to be Leary of trusting the opinions of anyone who can’t even get factual data right.
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And it still doesn't change the fact that their unvaccinated status makes them vastly more succeptible to severe COVID disease, and that almost every person dying of it these days is unvaccinated, well researched or not.
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98% of doctors say get the vaccine. Hey, here's the 2% saying don't take it so the majority is Wrong!
People only read what they want to believe or see
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98% of doctors say get the vaccine. Hey, here's the 2% saying don't take it so the majority is Wrong!
People only read what they want to believe or see
Or whatever fits into their current argument. Or whatever makes them seem edgy and cool.
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I don't think edgy and cool. I think they believe that they don't need the vaccine based on who they follow.
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I don't think edgy and cool. I think they believe that they don't need the vaccine based on who they follow.
I think there's a certain sect of online antivaxxers that do it just for the edge, to stir trouble, to troll, or however you want to put it. Granted, there's a sect of online dipshits for pretty much every scenario under the sun.
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To be fair, in the two minutes of the video that I listened to, his fundamental premise was asking the FDA with help to reduce vaccine hesitancy. I’m not sure this dr. was advocating for the anti-vaccine crowd, but some of the claims I heard him make of them left me scratching my head.
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Like I said, hard to change those minds who are completely against the vaccine.
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I wish we could get real data on what percentage of those vaccinated are "vaccine hesitant" and what percentage is those who just don't like people (meaning the government) telling them what they should do.
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I believe I am the second smartest person here (Adami is smartest, but he will disagree with me on principle, and so I'm back to number one).
:clap:
On the rest of your post ... we'll agree to disagree, including the part where you say you ARE right. You may be, but there are points where I may be right.
Before it gets blown out of proportion, there are a LOT of things you are right on, and I am simply saying on that ONE POINT I am right. Not across the board. Just that concept that there is this objective "right" to not be harmed. You can believe it to be so, you can want it to be so, but it just ISN'T so. And I don't point this out to be a douche, but to say if one is going to make decisions, one should make decisions the way the world IS, not the way they want it to be.
Isn't this essentially the argument that all of you are making against Darkshade? Why is it different for for him than for you?
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Eating horse pills from the feed store? Moron. Taking it in a responsible measure, despite no prescription? Not a moron.
It does beg the question ... how does one come to the conclusion that taking Ivermectin is a reasonable thing to do to combat COVID, but taking a vaccine is not?
Approved for that use? Vax - yes; IV - no
Researched and studied and peer reviewed for that use? Vax - yes; IV - no
Long term research? Vax - no; IV - no
100s of millions of real-world data points available? Vax - yes; IV - no
Under those four criteria alone, I just can't wrap my head around someone being anti-vax, but pro Ivermectin. Under what criteria does Ivermectin come out on top?
Plenty of people opt for the reactive rather than proactive. Anyone who says "I'm young, I'm healthy, I don't need healthcare" is taking this position (I've done it). Anyone who says "I don't need a will, I'll wait till I'm retired" is taking this position. Ah, fuck it, I'm not going to fix that oil leak; I'll just add a quart when I need to. Any woman out there ever think "well, I COULD demand a condom, but... eh, he said he'll pull out, so I'll deal with it tomorrow."?
f nothing else, it makes a certain logic: if you think either one could - COULD, not WOULD - hurt you, and you take the vaccine and still get sick, you're taking BOTH. If you say screw it, and just see if you get sick - not EVERY unvaccinated person has or will get COVID - and take the Ivermectin, you're only getting one dose of "bad". (There have been 42 million cases or thereabouts, and 150 million unvaccinated at this point).
It's not all that odd, actually.
Is there anything you don't have a counter-point to? :biggrin: You make good points, even if they're largely irrelevant in the face of a global pandemic. My point on this matter, is that the arguments against vaccination are largely also arguments against something like Ivermectin, but people are still willing to explore the latter. That's what I don't understand. I get some people are procrastinators - at the expense of there own lives and livelihood. That wasn't my point.
But if that was my point, I guess I'm just one of those kinds of people that subscribes to the notion that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure - literally in this sense. I'm not sure I've ever heard the saying 'why take a ounce of prevention when an a pound of cure is gonna be a bigger risk than reward'.
C'mon; there are plenty of things I don't have a counter-point to. There's no need for the ad hominem. This is a very specific thread talking about a very specific concept, and there seems to be a lot of... I won't say "bullying", but certainly taking for granted a certain point of view, and while Darkshade seems recalcitrant to some of the ideas here, it's not like everyone else ISN'T. El Barto made some SOLID points on Ivermectin, that counter the narrative that "people that take that are crack pot, bat-shit, tin foil crazy" and yet I don't see a whole lot of "wow, I stand corrected" among those pushing the accepted narrative.
But to the topic at hand, you asked for a reason, I gave it to you and you seemed to reject it. The vaccine and Ivermectin are NOT interchangeable to some people. I personally can see them as very different, actually. It's like those people that pay for the three-year service plan on an appliance, and those that say "that's stupid". And while it's good that one does understand - for analytical purposes - it's not NECESSARY that you understand. It's not you. I don't understand a lot of things, some controversial, some not. But to "tolerate", I don't have to.
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surgical masks which do next to nothing,
Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you. Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.
You really don't know much about these things do you? I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.
Don't bother, the only thing you'll succeed in doing is adding damage to your eventual carpal tunnel.
I haven't really determined if he's open to receiving new data yet. My hunch is no, but I'm not ruling it out. I do know that he's been respectful and presented his arguments reasonably well. I wouldn't be engaging with him otherwise. I see no reason to be rude in dismissing him out of hand. He's conducting himself far better than most of his mindset, so I'm content to treat him better than most of those numbskulls.
This post isn't totally unfair, but I do have to ask.... how high are you right now? :lol
He doesn't have to be high. I personally am very proud - not the right word - of his post and his approach. This incessant need to "slam people we don't agree with" has got to stop, and where better than right here in our little corner of the world? Unless you're one of those people that just assumes that "because they think it, it must be right!" (and they exist, including here) we can learn something from everyone, even it's just the best way to educated those that maybe aren't contemplating all the facts on the table.
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Stader repeating himself deleted.
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Stadler repeating himself deleted.
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Lot of good all that familiarity with studies did those people in the ER. They still came to the conclusion that NOT getting vaccinated was a safer measure than getting vaccinated. Apparently they were wrong.
No. Wrong by YOUR STANDARD (that "getting COVID" is the only risk worth measuring). There's a big difference.
What other risk is greater than one's health?
Given the HEALTH risk and statistical probabilities of contracting COVID vs the HEALTH risk and statistical probabilities of experiencing side effects of the vaccine, I simply can't wrap my head around the mindset that it's safer to not get vaccinated.
Given how many people end up hospitalized from COVID, vs hospitalized from the vaccine (whether because of it, or still contracting COVID), the data seems to support that - at a macro level - it is not a safer HEALTH option to not be vaccinated. And fwiw, from all that I've read and watched, the actual number of people that are allergic to the vaccine, or compromised to the extent that it is medically unsafe to take it is a minuscule fraction of a percent of the population.
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Lot of good all that familiarity with studies did those people in the ER. They still came to the conclusion that NOT getting vaccinated was a safer measure than getting vaccinated. Apparently they were wrong.
No. Wrong by YOUR STANDARD (that "getting COVID" is the only risk worth measuring). There's a big difference.
What other risk is greater than one's health?
Given the HEALTH risk and statistical probabilities of contracting COVID vs the HEALTH risk and statistical probabilities of experiencing side effects of the vaccine, I simply can't wrap my head around the mindset that it's safer to not get vaccinated.
Given how many people end up hospitalized from COVID, vs hospitalized from the vaccine (whether because of it, or still contracting COVID), the data seems to support that - at a macro level - it is not a safer HEALTH option to not be vaccinated. And fwiw, from all that I've read and watched, the actual number of people that are allergic to the vaccine, or compromised to the extent that it is medically unsafe to take it is a minuscule fraction of a percent of the population.
Depends on what you value and what you fear. My own health might be number one, but it might also be second to the well-being of my family, for example. But even if you're right, and one's health is the standard, that's the point: "getting COVID" isn't the ONLY way that standard is not met. It's really depressing to keep reading these posts that just ASSUME that these people have the same mindset, outlook and risk tolerance as you (collective). I just don't assume that people that forego the vaccine that then get the virus are automatically "Wow, DTF was right; should have got the shot!"
And while I'm not personally advocating not getting the vaccine (I've got mine), the numbers are a bit... not misleading, but targeted. You ARE more likely to get sick and get sicker if you are unvaccinated, but here in the States, there are still 150 million unvaccinated, and only about 43 million cases, many of whom were sick either before vaccines or are break-through cases. Pick number: 43M? 30M? 20M? cases that occurred AFTER vaccines were widely available, and are in the unvaccinated. At 43M (not possible, since we know there are breakthrough cases), that's only a quarter of unvaccinated will ever get sick. At 20M (possible, but not likely), only about 13% will get sick (again, assuming that ALL the future sick are unvaccinated).
This is more stark globally. 230M cases, roughly, out of a population of 7.4B (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/). Your chances of getting this, vaccinated or not, is something like 3%. IF you're skeptical about the long term effects of a vaccine, which is not an unreasonable position, even if there is no evidence NOW of any long term effects, then these numbers don't necessarily seem to imply "no vaccine" = "death sentence", expect in very specific demographics.
We had about 1.8M cases and 20k deaths in the last 14 days. Assuming they are all unvaccinated (they're not) that's 1% and 0.01% respectively of the unvaccinated. Assuming you're scared of the vaccine, is "0.01%" enough to sway you? Maybe, maybe not, but it's certainly not "bat-shit crazy" to think it might not.
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Looks like we're back to a 2K per day 7-Day average.
Will there ever be any end to this thing?
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I think MOST people are morons, idiots or crazy. What I THINK doesn't matter. If I'm trying to understand someone and more importantly trying to convince someone of an alternate path, then no, it doesn't come up. And before you say "well I'm here, they're not, it doesn't matter", I say it DOES matter. Can we just use the N-word if there are no African Americans around? Of course not. if I had a dime for every PM I've ever gotten here or at MP to the effect of "well, I'd love to participate in P/R but I'd be in over my head" I'd be, well, buying Richard Rawlings' tequila. And part of that is people not wanting to be called morons, idiots or crazy if someone disagrees with their idea.
So, and just so I'm clear, you never vocally question the mental acuity of shitty drivers that you get stuck behind?
:)
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It's really depressing to keep reading these posts that just ASSUME that these people have the same mindset, outlook and risk tolerance as you (collective). I just don't assume that people that forego the vaccine that then get the virus are automatically "Wow, DTF was right; should have got the shot!"
Quite literally, I neither said or implied any of that. I said that I cannot wrap my head around that mindset. I know that people have that mindset, but I just don't get it. And while they may not have said "DTF was right", I've read/watched more than a few articles/interviews where ER/ICU patients very much DO express regret and/or ask for the vaccine. It seems (not for the first time), you are applying some of your own biases around what you think other people believe, to statements that literally don't say what you interpret them to be saying.
This is more stark globally. 230M cases, roughly, out of a population of 7.4B (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/). Your chances of getting this, vaccinated or not, is something like 3%.
C'mon man, you know this is a horseshit, poor man's way of calculating the "chance of getting it" metric. You're smarter than this. As you quite often point out on any given analysis, there are far more variables involved to come to this conclusion beyond global population, and global case count. I can't link the image (as it was sent to me in a FB IM), but in Ontario, a study of September cases revealed that unvax'd people are 6.6x more likely to catch COVID; 14x more likely to be hospitalized; and 24.5x more likely to end up in the ICU.
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I think MOST people are morons, idiots or crazy. What I THINK doesn't matter. If I'm trying to understand someone and more importantly trying to convince someone of an alternate path, then no, it doesn't come up. And before you say "well I'm here, they're not, it doesn't matter", I say it DOES matter. Can we just use the N-word if there are no African Americans around? Of course not. if I had a dime for every PM I've ever gotten here or at MP to the effect of "well, I'd love to participate in P/R but I'd be in over my head" I'd be, well, buying Richard Rawlings' tequila. And part of that is people not wanting to be called morons, idiots or crazy if someone disagrees with their idea.
So, and just so I'm clear, you never vocally question the mental acuity of shitty drivers that you get stuck behind?
:)
Honest to god, no. In that case, I'm far more likely to call them selfish or self-centered. That to me is more a matter of courtesy. If I'm going to resort to questioning someone's mental acuity, it's far more likely to be in the realm of economics (the people that think it makes sense to tax people at 100% of their income and that they will roll over and pay it make me question their ability to function). But even then, I DO try to practice what I preach. That I think it, doesn't make it right, and that I'm human doesn't mean that the overall argument is wrong.
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What do you all think about the restaurant owner in Texas kicking out patrons for wearing a mask (they have an immunocompromised child at home)?
https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/09/18/rowlett-restaurant-owner-explains-no-mask-policy-after-asking-family-to-leave/
Personally, I'd never take my business there and while I feel bad for the customers, I also feel like if he is not violating local rules around masking, he should run his business how he sees fit.
And that also includes any consequences he has from making this policy. And even though the local news affiliate only identified him as "Tom" he has been public about it on his social media pages.
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What do you all think about the restaurant owner in Texas kicking out patrons for wearing a mask (they have an immunocompromised child at home)?
https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/09/18/rowlett-restaurant-owner-explains-no-mask-policy-after-asking-family-to-leave/
Personally, I'd never take my business there and while I feel bad for the customers, I also feel like if he is not violating local rules around masking, he should run his business how he sees fit.
And that also includes any consequences he has from making this policy. And even though the local news affiliate only identified him as "Tom" he has been public about it on his social media pages.
All I needed to see was Rowlett. :lol
I have no idea how it would relate to a third party, but he may run into some ADA trouble with that. In fact, that gives me an idea. . . :justjen
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It's really depressing to keep reading these posts that just ASSUME that these people have the same mindset, outlook and risk tolerance as you (collective). I just don't assume that people that forego the vaccine that then get the virus are automatically "Wow, DTF was right; should have got the shot!"
Quite literally, I neither said or implied any of that. I said that I cannot wrap my head around that mindset. I know that people have that mindset, but I just don't get it. And while they may not have said "DTF was right", I've read/watched more than a few articles/interviews where ER/ICU patients very much DO express regret and/or ask for the vaccine. It seems (not for the first time), you are applying some of your own biases around what you think other people believe, to statements that literally don't say what you interpret them to be saying.
One, I never said YOU said it. I said that many of the posts here clearly don't account for the fact that different people make different assumptions and have different risk profiles. And they don't.
That the press is putting up articles where people express regret doesn't surprise me. I have a healthy distrust of the motivations of the mass media, as do many here (the difference being that I don't limit my criticism to Fox News).
This is more stark globally. 230M cases, roughly, out of a population of 7.4B (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/). Your chances of getting this, vaccinated or not, is something like 3%.
C'mon man, you know this is a horseshit, poor man's way of calculating the "chance of getting it" metric. You're smarter than this. As you quite often point out on any given analysis, there are far more variables involved to come to this conclusion beyond global population, and global case count. I can't link the image (as it was sent to me in a FB IM), but in Ontario, a study of September cases revealed that unvax'd people are 6.6x more likely to catch COVID; 14x more likely to be hospitalized; and 24.5x more likely to end up in the ICU.
You're right, as far as you go. But that's just half the equation. That's the RELATIVE risk. I accept that data (not the exact numbers, but the relationships) but I ALSO am considering the ABSOLUTE risk, and accept the data that says the odds for ALL of them are not that high. You cannot ignore the data that doesn't match your conclusion. Your conclusion HAS to incorporate ALL the data whether it is indicated or contraindicated. Just read the title of this article (https://academic.oup.com/ndt/article/32/suppl_2/ii13/3056571) (though I would go much further and read the article itself. Else you'd miss this tidbit: "Relative risks have the appealing feature of summarizing two numbers (the risk in one group and the risk in the other) into one. However, this feature also represents their major weakness, that the underlying absolute risks are concealed and readers tend to overestimate the effect when it is presented in relative terms. In many situations, the absolute risk gives a better representation of the actual situation and also from the patient’s point of view absolute risks often give more relevant information.")
For example: you and I go to a bar. We sit and have a drink. I go outside to make a phone call. I am xx times more likely to be hit by a meteor that you, since I am outside and you are protected by a building. It is still HIGHLY unlikely that EITHER of us is going to get hit by a meteor. I should not be shamed into getting a vaccine against meteors. Condoms versus the pill; RELATIVELY, the pill has a higher success rate of preventing pregnancy. Yet both are acceptable forms of birth control.
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Fun Fact: There is only 1 recorded case in the entirety the human history of a person being hit by a meteor! (and it wasn't even a direct hit)
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/only-person-ever-hit-meteorite-real-trouble-began-later-180961238/
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One, I never said YOU said it. I said that many of the posts here clearly don't account for the fact that different people make different assumptions and have different risk profiles. And they don't.
Ok fair... but when referencing "these posts" while quoting mine, you can see how it's a direct inference.
That the press is putting up articles where people express regret doesn't surprise me. I have a healthy distrust of the motivations of the mass media, as do many here (the difference being that I don't limit my criticism to Fox News).
Mistrust is fine, but I had an old boss who used to say "once is an event; twice is a coincidence; three times is a trend". I've heard/read the 'regret' more than enough times to simply dismiss it as an agenda of the media.
For example: you and I go to a bar.
This is the most important thing to take away from your last segment. I cannot wait for the day this happens. Seriously.
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One, I never said YOU said it. I said that many of the posts here clearly don't account for the fact that different people make different assumptions and have different risk profiles. And they don't.
Ok fair... but when referencing "these posts" while quoting mine, you can see how it's a direct inference.
That the press is putting up articles where people express regret doesn't surprise me. I have a healthy distrust of the motivations of the mass media, as do many here (the difference being that I don't limit my criticism to Fox News).
Mistrust is fine, but I had an old boss who used to say "once is an event; twice is a coincidence; three times is a trend". I've heard/read the 'regret' more than enough times to simply dismiss it as an agenda of the media.
For example: you and I go to a bar.
This is the most important thing to take away from your last segment. I cannot wait for the day this happens. Seriously.
People regret all sorts of things when they're on their death bed. Many regret not making decisions that caused them to be hospitalized and on their death bed. This is the moment when people realize their personal choices and then some end up asking forgiveness from people and from God. Some even die with that regret still lingering as they have not had the chance to ask for redemption and forgiveness from the person they hurt or harmed in any ways by their decision.
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One, I never said YOU said it. I said that many of the posts here clearly don't account for the fact that different people make different assumptions and have different risk profiles. And they don't.
Ok fair... but when referencing "these posts" while quoting mine, you can see how it's a direct inference.
I do and I apologize. I will try to do better.
That the press is putting up articles where people express regret doesn't surprise me. I have a healthy distrust of the motivations of the mass media, as do many here (the difference being that I don't limit my criticism to Fox News).
Mistrust is fine, but I had an old boss who used to say "once is an event; twice is a coincidence; three times is a trend". I've heard/read the 'regret' more than enough times to simply dismiss it as an agenda of the media.
But I said this to TAC (indirectly) in the Coronavirus/Politics thread. There are ONLY articles on those sad sacks that regret the decision that flew in the face of the mob. Connecticut reports their cases and deaths every Thursday; I think last week was 30 deaths from COVID. I'd like to see articles on all 30, laying out their positions on masks, vaccines, etc. so I can make an informed decision on how many people are sharing that regret, as opposed to just being subject to what that particular media outlet chooses to tell me.
For example: you and I go to a bar.
This is the most important thing to take away from your last segment. I cannot wait for the day this happens. Seriously.
Me too; it's real, though. Once the border becomes more "normal" I can be in Rochester almost at will, and I don't mind making the additional drive. (I'm assuming you're not that far from Niagara Falls).
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Dude, I'm 60 mins from Rochester - I live 5 minutes from the Peace Bridge, and have Nexus. Once it's open, we're so getting together. Sadly, closed for another month at least :-\
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Dude, I'm 60 mins from Rochester - I live 5 minutes from the Peace Bridge, and have Nexus. Once it's open, we're so getting together. Sadly, closed for another month at least :-\
I thought they had already opened the border back up? I was loooking to get to Canadia's Wonderland to ride some coasters in October, and it was looking like that would work out.
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Things are getting much better here in FL. I'm thankful.
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I think MOST people are morons, idiots or crazy. What I THINK doesn't matter. If I'm trying to understand someone and more importantly trying to convince someone of an alternate path, then no, it doesn't come up. And before you say "well I'm here, they're not, it doesn't matter", I say it DOES matter. Can we just use the N-word if there are no African Americans around? Of course not. if I had a dime for every PM I've ever gotten here or at MP to the effect of "well, I'd love to participate in P/R but I'd be in over my head" I'd be, well, buying Richard Rawlings' tequila. And part of that is people not wanting to be called morons, idiots or crazy if someone disagrees with their idea.
So, and just so I'm clear, you never vocally question the mental acuity of shitty drivers that you get stuck behind?
:)
Honest to god, no. In that case, I'm far more likely to call them selfish or self-centered. That to me is more a matter of courtesy. If I'm going to resort to questioning someone's mental acuity, it's far more likely to be in the realm of economics (the people that think it makes sense to tax people at 100% of their income and that they will roll over and pay it make me question their ability to function). But even then, I DO try to practice what I preach. That I think it, doesn't make it right, and that I'm human doesn't mean that the overall argument is wrong.
OK. Well, that's all anyone can ask.
:tup
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Dude, I'm 60 mins from Rochester - I live 5 minutes from the Peace Bridge, and have Nexus. Once it's open, we're so getting together. Sadly, closed for another month at least :-\
I thought they had already opened the border back up? I was loooking to get to Canadia's Wonderland to ride some coasters in October, and it was looking like that would work out.
*WE* opened the border to you guys. *YOU* haven't opened it to us.
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https://www.statnews.com/2021/09/20/covid-19-set-to-overtake-1918-spanish-flu-as-deadliest-disease-in-american-history/ (https://www.statnews.com/2021/09/20/covid-19-set-to-overtake-1918-spanish-flu-as-deadliest-disease-in-american-history/)
The Spanish flu was previously the disease event that caused the biggest loss of life in the United States; the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimate that 675,000 Americans died during the 1918 pandemic, in waves of illness that stretched out over roughly two years in this country.
According to STAT’s Covid-19 tracker, Covid deaths stand at roughly 674,000.
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Dude, I'm 60 mins from Rochester - I live 5 minutes from the Peace Bridge, and have Nexus. Once it's open, we're so getting together. Sadly, closed for another month at least :-\
I thought they had already opened the border back up? I was loooking to get to Canadia's Wonderland to ride some coasters in October, and it was looking like that would work out.
*WE* opened the border to you guys. *YOU* haven't opened it to us.
Holy shit, they finally listened to me!!! :lol
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:lol
Those dangerous Canucks!
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Things are getting much better here in FL. I'm thankful.
Please tell us more! I'll be the first to give a thumbs up at good news!
Based on your posts you have been having quite the time at your hospital. Have things eased up?
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What do you all think about the restaurant owner in Texas kicking out patrons for wearing a mask (they have an immunocompromised child at home)?
https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/09/18/rowlett-restaurant-owner-explains-no-mask-policy-after-asking-family-to-leave/
Personally, I'd never take my business there and while I feel bad for the customers, I also feel like if he is not violating local rules around masking, he should run his business how he sees fit.
And that also includes any consequences he has from making this policy. And even though the local news affiliate only identified him as "Tom" he has been public about it on his social media pages.
They were talking about this on the radio this morning. They were told twice before the owner came over and kicked them out. Once when they were entering the facility and once when the hostess came over. It's a bar and grill so there was a band playing so maybe when they were checking ID they thought they had to pull their mask down for identification and I think the couple was more confused than anything.
But the second time around the hostess or waitress told them to take off their masks and leave them off AND she said 'yes, it's political'. That's just what I heard this morning.
So I agree that the guy can run his business how he sees fit but how many reports have we seen where a business require masks and a clerk gets a punch in the face or shot because of "merican" freedoms?
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What do you all think about the restaurant owner in Texas kicking out patrons for wearing a mask (they have an immunocompromised child at home)?
https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/09/18/rowlett-restaurant-owner-explains-no-mask-policy-after-asking-family-to-leave/
Personally, I'd never take my business there and while I feel bad for the customers, I also feel like if he is not violating local rules around masking, he should run his business how he sees fit.
And that also includes any consequences he has from making this policy. And even though the local news affiliate only identified him as "Tom" he has been public about it on his social media pages.
They were talking about this on the radio this morning. They were told twice before the owner came over and kicked them out. Once when they were entering the facility and once when the hostess came over. It's a bar and grill so there was a band playing so maybe when they were checking ID they thought they had to pull their mask down for identification and I think the couple was more confused than anything.
But the second time around the hostess or waitress told them to take off their masks and leave them off AND she said 'yes, it's political'. That's just what I heard this morning.
So I agree that the guy can run his business how he sees fit but how many reports have we seen where a business require masks and a clerk gets a punch in the face or shot because of "merican" freedoms?
I don't know. How many? I think it depends on where you get your info; CNN is reporting where the clerk gets punched and the "sane" patron gets tossed out unfairly; Fox is likely highlighting where the owner is being persecuted and the patron is only interested in making a political point and/or increasing their Facebook Likes.
If they are upfront and say it's political, is that any different than, say, a restaurant that pushes a different political agenda? No one seemed to have much problem when workers refused service to Ted Cruz, or other patrons got all up in his grill while eating. There was a video here a couple years ago of someone dumping a soda on someone with a "Make America Great Again" hat on. Do we feel the same way about that?
Don't get me wrong; I think that there's far too much politics in every day life these days. I ought to be able to go to a barbeque restaurant and eat good ribs independent on whether the owner and I agree in whole or in part on political issues, or even wildly disagree on even basic things. I think what the owner did here was penny-wise and pound foolish at best; but I also think that when some owner throws out a customer for racist stuff or refuses service to "deplorables" is wrong too, so what do I know (even though the argument - he/she can run their business as they want and consequences!" is the same).
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Don't get me wrong; I think that there's far too much politics in every day life these days. I ought to be able to go to a barbeque restaurant and eat good ribs independent on whether the owner and I agree in whole or in part on political issues, or even wildly disagree on even basic things. I think what the owner did here was penny-wise and pound foolish at best; but I also think that when some owner throws out a customer for racist stuff or refuses service to "deplorables" is wrong too, so what do I know (even though the argument - he/she can run their business as they want and consequences!" is the same).
In Rowlett it'll help his cause. It's like that idiot woman with the hair salon. The number of people in Rockwall County who will show up to support him (and had probably never heard of him before) will greatly outnumber the people who will avoid his place of business. Unless he gets sued, this will be a good business move for him.
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What do you all think about the restaurant owner in Texas kicking out patrons for wearing a mask (they have an immunocompromised child at home)?
https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/09/18/rowlett-restaurant-owner-explains-no-mask-policy-after-asking-family-to-leave/
Personally, I'd never take my business there and while I feel bad for the customers, I also feel like if he is not violating local rules around masking, he should run his business how he sees fit.
And that also includes any consequences he has from making this policy. And even though the local news affiliate only identified him as "Tom" he has been public about it on his social media pages.
They were talking about this on the radio this morning. They were told twice before the owner came over and kicked them out. Once when they were entering the facility and once when the hostess came over. It's a bar and grill so there was a band playing so maybe when they were checking ID they thought they had to pull their mask down for identification and I think the couple was more confused than anything.
But the second time around the hostess or waitress told them to take off their masks and leave them off AND she said 'yes, it's political'. That's just what I heard this morning.
So I agree that the guy can run his business how he sees fit but how many reports have we seen where a business require masks and a clerk gets a punch in the face or shot because of "merican" freedoms?
I don't know. How many? I think it depends on where you get your info; CNN is reporting where the clerk gets punched and the "sane" patron gets tossed out unfairly; Fox is likely highlighting where the owner is being persecuted and the patron is only interested in making a political point and/or increasing their Facebook Likes.
If they are upfront and say it's political, is that any different than, say, a restaurant that pushes a different political agenda? No one seemed to have much problem when workers refused service to Ted Cruz, or other patrons got all up in his grill while eating. There was a video here a couple years ago of someone dumping a soda on someone with a "Make America Great Again" hat on. Do we feel the same way about that?
Don't get me wrong; I think that there's far too much politics in every day life these days. I ought to be able to go to a barbeque restaurant and eat good ribs independent on whether the owner and I agree in whole or in part on political issues, or even wildly disagree on even basic things. I think what the owner did here was penny-wise and pound foolish at best; but I also think that when some owner throws out a customer for racist stuff or refuses service to "deplorables" is wrong too, so what do I know (even though the argument - he/she can run their business as they want and consequences!" is the same).
You do also have people out there crying about Chik Fil A being a Christian owned business, and it has nothing to do with the services they provide.
I myself am Bi-sexual, yet I love their chicken and waffles fries. According to the LGTBQ culture and society, Me eating at Chik Fil A, is sacrilege. But, to me, it's sacrilicious. And that is one reason I do not abide or comply with whatever the hell LGTBQ culture is.
What I learned from this incident is these passports can give rise to prejudice claims.
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Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.
https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/
The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.
A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.
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Don't get me wrong; I think that there's far too much politics in every day life these days.
What's bizarre is that a mask is quite literally NOT a political statement. It's a health-related accessory. it's tantamount to, refusing service to someone with a portable oxygen tank; using a cane/crutches; wearing a blood sugar monitoring patch. Using these items cause no harm to anyone else, while the lack of use MAY cause harm to the wearer. While these patrons were using it as a health measure, it was the owner/employees that made it a political issue.
Refusing service to someone NOT wearing a mask is *not* the same as refusing service to someone FOR wearing a mask. One is a public health measure; the other is solely a political position. The former has the potential to cause harm to others; the latter causes no harm to anyone.
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Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.
https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/
The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.
A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.
I just read about this too, I love Carmines so this kind of sucks to see happen there. But kind of hard to comment when like you said, the facts aren't really solid yet.
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Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.
https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/
The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.
A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.
There we go....
The matter of fact lies with these people being unaware and maybe a bit entitled to go and visit NYC, the place with the strictest vaccine mandate orders, with no exemptions. They then assaulted the worker, placing them in harm's way not because of Covid, but because of the vaccine requirement being enforced. This lead to the entitled people demanding to ignore the rules and be serviced.
BLM is just trying to make this a racial issue when it clearly is not one at all. And I gave the reasons why it's not racial in the slightest bit. Even if that server did say something racist. The fact those people felt entitled to ignore that businesses demands is what led to that person even saying that supposed racist remark.
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Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.
https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/
The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.
A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.
Well, the devil is in the details, but I REALLY hope that "perceived racism" doesn't become an affirmative defense for bodily assault.
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Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.
https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/
The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.
A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.
Well, the devil is in the details, but I REALLY hope that "perceived racism" doesn't become an affirmative defense for bodily assault.
I would agree, even without needing to dismiss it as "perceived racism". You can say alleged, since it's not proven I guess, but I'd say calling someone the N word, if that's what happened, is just racism. Not perceived racism, and not needing quotes.
That said, calling someone the N word, or calling me the K word (that feels weird to type) isn't carte blanche to get physical.
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Don't get me wrong; I think that there's far too much politics in every day life these days.
What's bizarre is that a mask is quite literally NOT a political statement. It's a health-related accessory. it's tantamount to, refusing service to someone with a portable oxygen tank; using a cane/crutches; wearing a blood sugar monitoring patch. Using these items cause no harm to anyone else, while the lack of use MAY cause harm to the wearer. While these patrons were using it as a health measure, it was the owner/employees that made it a political issue.
Refusing service to someone NOT wearing a mask is *not* the same as refusing service to someone FOR wearing a mask. One is a public health measure; the other is solely a political position. The former has the potential to cause harm to others; the latter causes no harm to anyone.
Masks are not political, yes.
Although, they became political when they enacted the vaccination mandates and requirements to enter a business. The government took all that responsibility and reliability from itself and handed it to the businesses. So now the businesses themselves are responsible and reliable for enacting these mandates.
Which is a sly move by the government so they can claim, our hands aren't dirty, see we're not the ones responsible.
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Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.
https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/
The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.
A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.
Well, the devil is in the details, but I REALLY hope that "perceived racism" doesn't become an affirmative defense for bodily assault.
I would agree, even without needing to dismiss it as "perceived racism". You can say alleged, since it's not proven I guess, but I'd say calling someone the N word, if that's what happened, is just racism. Not perceived racism, and not needing quotes.
That said, calling someone the N word, or calling me the K word (that feels weird to type) isn't carte blanche to get physical.
You know I find interesting about derogatory words. Every society has a term or word they call the other. And some of these terms are derogatory terms. They could be considered racist, but what happens when that term is a part of the language. Negro is a Spanish term for the color Black. If you're ignorant of that fact, it could be considered racist. But if one does not know what to call someone, and doesn't know what the term "Black" means in english, they're gonna use terms they know and Negro happens to be one.
People were/are referring to the Tohono O'Odham as the Apache derogatory term for them, "Papago". Because the colonizers met the Apache first and they referenced the TO people as the term Papago, and the colonizers assumed that's what those people were named and when they went to TO and met them, they got a nice stern look and talking to for telling them they're Papago....
It's like saying, those Texans are deplorables, and then assuming that is what Texans are known as, and going to Texas and saying... Howdy good Deplorable people.
It's very, very hard to claim racism when you have a mixing pot of different cultures of people who speak different languages intermingling with people whom feel entitled to demand things from people.
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Don't get me wrong; I think that there's far too much politics in every day life these days.
What's bizarre is that a mask is quite literally NOT a political statement. It's a health-related accessory. it's tantamount to, refusing service to someone with a portable oxygen tank; using a cane/crutches; wearing a blood sugar monitoring patch. Using these items cause no harm to anyone else, while the lack of use MAY cause harm to the wearer. While these patrons were using it as a health measure, it was the owner/employees that made it a political issue.
I agree with you up to a point. It is (a health issue) when you are deciding for yourself whether to use one. Once you start TELLING others to, it becomes at least in part, something else.
It is (a health issue) when the owner is setting the rules. Once someone objects and it makes national news, it becomes at least in part, something else.
In our society it seems anyone can escalate whenever they feel it's an advantage.
Refusing service to someone NOT wearing a mask is *not* the same as refusing service to someone FOR wearing a mask. One is a public health measure; the other is solely a political position. The former has the potential to cause harm to others; the latter causes no harm to anyone.
Well, the standard "objection" to the harm issue. :) It's far too subjective a standard to be used to control the behavior of others. I have NO DUTY to minimize your "potential harm".
I have two reactions to these stories beyond the "right" and "wrong" of it. One, I hope for consistency; if we support the owner here, I would hope we would support the owner if they removed people wearing a "Make America Great Again" hat as well. If you support the patrons, I would hope you would support the patrons if they had a "Make America Great Again" hat as well. I feel like too often the support is tied to the message, and that doesn't work for me.
Two, and this is common to the Carmine's* story as well, but I think we've really lost the magic of just "walking away". Was I that couple I would have just left. So what that they don't want me - and my choices - in there? So what that I have to go to another place to eat? I have no "right" to eat there. And why would I want to eat there to begin with?
* if it's the Carmine's I'm thinking of - on 44th Street off Times Square - that place is excellent.
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Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.
https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/
The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.
A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.
Well, the devil is in the details, but I REALLY hope that "perceived racism" doesn't become an affirmative defense for bodily assault.
I would agree, even without needing to dismiss it as "perceived racism". You can say alleged, since it's not proven I guess, but I'd say calling someone the N word, if that's what happened, is just racism. Not perceived racism, and not needing quotes.
That said, calling someone the N word, or calling me the K word (that feels weird to type) isn't carte blanche to get physical.
I wasn't looking to make a statement here; I just didn't assume it was the N-word. I don't disagree that using the N-word in that context is racism (I don't agree that ANY use of the word is de facto racism; if I opted to spell it out here that wouldn't make me a racist.) but there are other words that are perceived by some as being "racial slurs" (in quotes to delineate a defined term, not to call into question whether they are or are not). I was making the point that in terms of justifying violence, there's an element of "mutuality" to it.
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Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.
https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/
The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.
A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.
Well, the devil is in the details, but I REALLY hope that "perceived racism" doesn't become an affirmative defense for bodily assault.
I would agree, even without needing to dismiss it as "perceived racism". You can say alleged, since it's not proven I guess, but I'd say calling someone the N word, if that's what happened, is just racism. Not perceived racism, and not needing quotes.
That said, calling someone the N word, or calling me the K word (that feels weird to type) isn't carte blanche to get physical.
You know I find interesting about derogatory words. Every society has a term or word they call the other. And some of these terms are derogatory terms. They could be considered racist, but what happens when that term is a part of the language. Negro is a Spanish term for the color Black. If you're ignorant of that fact, it could be considered racist. But if one does not know what to call someone, and doesn't know what the term "Black" means in english, they're gonna use terms they know and Negro happens to be one.
People were/are referring to the Tohono O'Odham as the Apache derogatory term for them, "Papago". Because the colonizers met the Apache first and they referenced the TO people as the term Papago, and the colonizers assumed that's what those people were named and when they went to TO and met them, they got a nice stern look and talking to for telling them they're Papago....
It's like saying, those Texans are deplorables, and then assuming that is what Texans are known as, and going to Texas and saying... Howdy good Deplorable people.
It's very, very hard to claim racism when you have a mixing pot of different cultures of people who speak different languages intermingling with people whom feel entitled to demand things from people.
The thing about "labels" that I find fascinating is who gets to determine what the label is and why. It all boils down to in-groups and out-groups. We'd be far better off as a society and civilization if we stopped making arbitrary and subjective determinations - often on the fly - as to what out-groups are acceptable and what ones are not, and started simply acknowledging that "out-groups are to be avoided".
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Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.
https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/
The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.
A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.
Well, the devil is in the details, but I REALLY hope that "perceived racism" doesn't become an affirmative defense for bodily assault.
I would agree, even without needing to dismiss it as "perceived racism". You can say alleged, since it's not proven I guess, but I'd say calling someone the N word, if that's what happened, is just racism. Not perceived racism, and not needing quotes.
That said, calling someone the N word, or calling me the K word (that feels weird to type) isn't carte blanche to get physical.
I wasn't looking to make a statement here; I just didn't assume it was the N-word. I don't disagree that using the N-word in that context is racism (I don't agree that ANY use of the word is de facto racism; if I opted to spell it out here that wouldn't make me a racist.) but there are other words that are perceived by some as being "racial slurs" (in quotes to delineate a defined term, not to call into question whether they are or are not). I was making the point that in terms of justifying violence, there's an element of "mutuality" to it.
That's fair. The women charged with the assault, as far as I remember, claimed she was using specifically the N word. Again, not a reason to get violent, but definitely racist if true.
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We agree!
I feel sick. :)
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We agree!
I feel sick. :)
Mission accomplished.
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* if it's the Carmine's I'm thinking of - on 44th Street off Times Square - that place is excellent.
Same branch, different location on the Upper West Side (92nd and Broadway).
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Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.
https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/
The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.
A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.
Well, the devil is in the details, but I REALLY hope that "perceived racism" doesn't become an affirmative defense for bodily assault.
I would agree, even without needing to dismiss it as "perceived racism". You can say alleged, since it's not proven I guess, but I'd say calling someone the N word, if that's what happened, is just racism. Not perceived racism, and not needing quotes.
That said, calling someone the N word, or calling me the K word (that feels weird to type) isn't carte blanche to get physical.
You know I find interesting about derogatory words. Every society has a term or word they call the other. And some of these terms are derogatory terms. They could be considered racist, but what happens when that term is a part of the language. Negro is a Spanish term for the color Black. If you're ignorant of that fact, it could be considered racist. But if one does not know what to call someone, and doesn't know what the term "Black" means in english, they're gonna use terms they know and Negro happens to be one.
People were/are referring to the Tohono O'Odham as the Apache derogatory term for them, "Papago". Because the colonizers met the Apache first and they referenced the TO people as the term Papago, and the colonizers assumed that's what those people were named and when they went to TO and met them, they got a nice stern look and talking to for telling them they're Papago....
It's like saying, those Texans are deplorables, and then assuming that is what Texans are known as, and going to Texas and saying... Howdy good Deplorable people.
It's very, very hard to claim racism when you have a mixing pot of different cultures of people who speak different languages intermingling with people whom feel entitled to demand things from people.
The thing about "labels" that I find fascinating is who gets to determine what the label is and why. It all boils down to in-groups and out-groups. We'd be far better off as a society and civilization if we stopped making arbitrary and subjective determinations - often on the fly - as to what out-groups are acceptable and what ones are not, and started simply acknowledging that "out-groups are to be avoided".
Yes, and one that I am adamant about in regards to labelling. All you need to do is look at all these places, sacred and non-sacred, we native people have been calling them. Yet, who determines that these places should be called, "devil's peak", or "Rio Grande River"...We had names, we've been calling them that and still do.
So what should these be named. They are named and called by however that tribes language calls or describes that place. Not all tribes have the same english meaning for what they term/label that place. Yet, each one knows the place because the labeling term is often a descriptor for the environmental habitat and structures of that place, or what was found around there or living there already.
Which it is very important to understand why these outsiders labelled a place in those terms, like "devil's peak" or the dances like the Apache Crown Dancers being known as "The devil dancers"
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San Francisco mayor London Breed, in defense of being photographed at a night club mask less...
"Like, we don't need the fun police to come in and try and micromanage and tell us what we should or shouldn't be doing. We know what we need to do to protect ourselves,"
Liberal politicians make it really hard to defend them sometimes....
Seriously though, she needs to fuck off with this attitude.
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San Francisco mayor London Breed, in defense of being photographed at a night club mask less...
"Like, we don't need the fun police to come in and try and micromanage and tell us what we should or shouldn't be doing. We know what we need to do to protect ourselves,"
Liberal politicians make it really hard to defend them sometimes....
Seriously though, she needs to fuck off with this attitude.
Or they just don't care, and are trying to save face when they get caught. They're humans, and are prone to all the faults of the common man. Just because they're a politician doesn't mean they are not capable of this kind of attitude. She's just being exposed by getting caught.
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Refusing service to someone NOT wearing a mask is *not* the same as refusing service to someone FOR wearing a mask. One is a public health measure; the other is solely a political position. The former has the potential to cause harm to others; the latter causes no harm to anyone.
Well, the standard "objection" to the harm issue. :) It's far too subjective a standard to be used to control the behavior of others. I have NO DUTY to minimize your "potential harm".
Never said you did (at least, in this scenario ;))
I have two reactions to these stories beyond the "right" and "wrong" of it. One, I hope for consistency; if we support the owner here, I would hope we would support the owner if they removed people wearing a "Make America Great Again" hat as well. If you support the patrons, I would hope you would support the patrons if they had a "Make America Great Again" hat as well. I feel like too often the support is tied to the message, and that doesn't work for me.
Two, and this is common to the Carmine's* story as well, but I think we've really lost the magic of just "walking away". Was I that couple I would have just left. So what that they don't want me - and my choices - in there? So what that I have to go to another place to eat? I have no "right" to eat there. And why would I want to eat there to begin with?
Stop the presses... we agree on something! In fact, I don't disagree with anything in the above. My only point was the owner that refuses service to a masked patron is not exactly* the same as the owner that refuses service to an unmasked patron.
*it COULD be... I'm sure there are many owners that us the 'unmasked' circumstance as a reason to refuse service to someone they just don't want to serve.
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No argument here, Chad, just explanation: I'm getting a little tired (generally, not with you or DTF) of this idea that there is an explanation for everything. Our society is devolving into a cesspool of rationalizations. Watch any reality TV show, and the worst behavior is ALWAYS justified. "He did this". "She said that". The cooking shows I watch: EVERYONE has a story or an angle that somehow makes them more deserving of winning. When EVERYONE has a story or a rationalization, by definition - in a society that adheres to the rule of law - NO ONE does. Except in the most egregious of cases, where a distinct "right" is at risk, I don't really care what the rationalization is at this point.
I think from the standpoint of the patron, and their presence in the restaurant (or not), it doesn't matter what the owner thinks. There's no moral high ground with "mask" or "no mask" for those of us that feel he can refuse service for any reason or no reason at all.
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No argument here, Chad, just explanation: I'm getting a little tired (generally, not with you or DTF) of this idea that there is an explanation for everything. Our society is devolving into a cesspool of rationalizations. Watch any reality TV show, and the worst behavior is ALWAYS justified. "He did this". "She said that". The cooking shows I watch: EVERYONE has a story or an angle that somehow makes them more deserving of winning. When EVERYONE has a story or a rationalization, by definition - in a society that adheres to the rule of law - NO ONE does. Except in the most egregious of cases, where a distinct "right" is at risk, I don't really care what the rationalization is at this point.
I think from the standpoint of the patron, and their presence in the restaurant (or not), it doesn't matter what the owner thinks. There's no moral high ground with "mask" or "no mask" for those of us that feel he can refuse service for any reason or no reason at all.
:clap: No disagreement.
Yes, a business owner can refuse service for any goddamned reason he or she wants. My only point was that (imo) there is a reasoned justification to do so in one case; but not in the other. Otherwise, we're on the same page here.
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It seems like more people these days want to flex their political muscle for all to see these days.
In the past, a business owner would never want to lose a dollar over some political stance. Now everyone is willing and proud to show you.
I miss the days of personal beliefs staying personal.
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San Francisco mayor London Breed, in defense of being photographed at a night club mask less...
"Like, we don't need the fun police to come in and try and micromanage and tell us what we should or shouldn't be doing. We know what we need to do to protect ourselves,"
Liberal politicians make it really hard to defend them sometimes....
Seriously though, she needs to fuck off with this attitude.
Or they just don't care, and are trying to save face when they get caught. They're humans, and are prone to all the faults of the common man. Just because they're a politician doesn't mean they are not capable of this kind of attitude. She's just being exposed by getting caught.
Her initial defense was that "you don't understand, it was the first time in over a decade that the original members of Tony, Toni, Tone performed together"
And when pressed, she doubled down on it.
She's getting dragged in glorious fashion on the radio
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San Francisco mayor London Breed, in defense of being photographed at a night club mask less...
"Like, we don't need the fun police to come in and try and micromanage and tell us what we should or shouldn't be doing. We know what we need to do to protect ourselves,"
Liberal politicians make it really hard to defend them sometimes....
Seriously though, she needs to fuck off with this attitude.
Or they just don't care, and are trying to save face when they get caught. They're humans, and are prone to all the faults of the common man. Just because they're a politician doesn't mean they are not capable of this kind of attitude. She's just being exposed by getting caught.
Her initial defense was that "you don't understand, it was the first time in over a decade that the original members of Tony, Toni, Tone performed together"
And when pressed, she doubled down on it.
She's getting dragged in glorious fashion on the radio
Well! In that case, carry on. Nothing to see here.
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I miss the days of personal beliefs staying personal.
It doesn't bother me when personal beliefs become public. It just bothers me when judgment happens because of personal beliefs or when people become jackasses in how they express their personal beliefs. If I thought you were a great person that I enjoyed being around, why should that change if I later discover that you believe something I disagree with? You are still the same person. If I enjoy eating at your restaurant because the food is good, I like the service, and/or I like the atmosphere, why would I stop liking any of those things if I later discover the owner believes something I disagree with? The things I like have not changed. Cutting off a person or a business I enjoy and care about just because I later discover that their personal beliefs do not align with mine says more unfavorable things about me than about that person, IMO.
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San Francisco mayor London Breed, in defense of being photographed at a night club mask less...
"Like, we don't need the fun police to come in and try and micromanage and tell us what we should or shouldn't be doing. We know what we need to do to protect ourselves,"
Liberal politicians make it really hard to defend them sometimes....
Seriously though, she needs to fuck off with this attitude.
Or they just don't care, and are trying to save face when they get caught. They're humans, and are prone to all the faults of the common man. Just because they're a politician doesn't mean they are not capable of this kind of attitude. She's just being exposed by getting caught.
Her initial defense was that "you don't understand, it was the first time in over a decade that the original members of Tony, Toni, Tone performed together"
And when pressed, she doubled down on it.
She's getting dragged in glorious fashion on the radio
Can't find the exact quote, but there is another part of her response that was actually pretty reasonable. She basically said [paraphrase]: "Everyone at the table was vaccinated, and we knew it was safe. There's no reason to mask in between bites or sips. That isn't realistic or helpful." And she's right. The problem is, that directly contradicts the indoor mask mandate for everybody that she advocated for and she put in place.
Glad I don't live in that city/county. In mine, the rule is that you are supposed to mask up when you enter, regardless of vaccination status, and then can unmask once seated. That still doesn't completely follow logically from what health officials say we should do, but it's reasonable, and most don't seem to have a problem with it. I see a lot of people (myself included) who take it one step farther and will mask up again at the table when the server comes to take the order or drop off food, and I think that's reasonable as well, even though not spelled out as a requirement. But the SF rule makes little sense, and this latest incident highlights that.
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I think that is the problem though these days bosk1. We could disagree and still be friends but it never got too deep. Now, there are those willing to destroy relationships over politics and it's maddening.
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I think that is the problem though these days bosk1. We could disagree and still be friends but it never got too deep. Now, there are those willing to destroy relationships over politics and it's maddening.
This happened last weekend in my gamer friends discord channel. Just a massive fight between the anti-vaxxers and the pro-vaxxers. Ended up with one person who's been active in the channel for years being banned. I think that person went below the belt and too far, but still, an example of this type of mentality ruining friendships. Granted, I actually never liked that guy so I'm not upset, just more so the idea that these conversations can go south so quick and take a turn for the worst when these people have been gaming together for so long.
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San Francisco mayor London Breed, in defense of being photographed at a night club mask less...
"Like, we don't need the fun police to come in and try and micromanage and tell us what we should or shouldn't be doing. We know what we need to do to protect ourselves,"
Liberal politicians make it really hard to defend them sometimes....
Seriously though, she needs to fuck off with this attitude.
Or they just don't care, and are trying to save face when they get caught. They're humans, and are prone to all the faults of the common man. Just because they're a politician doesn't mean they are not capable of this kind of attitude. She's just being exposed by getting caught.
Her initial defense was that "you don't understand, it was the first time in over a decade that the original members of Tony, Toni, Tone performed together"
And when pressed, she doubled down on it.
She's getting dragged in glorious fashion on the radio
Can't find the exact quote, but there is another part of her response that was actually pretty reasonable. She basically said [paraphrase]: "Everyone at the table was vaccinated, and we knew it was safe. There's no reason to mask in between bites or sips. That isn't realistic or helpful." And she's right. The problem is, that directly contradicts the indoor mask mandate for everybody that she advocated for and she put in place.
Exactly.
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And.. It was TONY TONI TONE!!!
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I miss the days of personal beliefs staying personal.
It doesn't bother me when personal beliefs become public. It just bothers me when judgment happens because of personal beliefs or when people become jackasses in how they express their personal beliefs. If I thought you were a great person that I enjoyed being around, why should that change if I later discover that you believe something I disagree with? You are still the same person. If I enjoy eating at your restaurant because the food is good, I like the service, and/or I like the atmosphere, why would I stop liking any of those things if I later discover the owner believes something I disagree with? The things I like have not changed. Cutting off a person or a business I enjoy and care about just because I later discover that their personal beliefs do not align with mine says more unfavorable things about me than about that person, IMO.
I don't disagree, but there's a continuum of "personal beliefs" that can be tolerated and those that can't be. Like, if I find out my favorite chef likes growls in his death/doom metal, I'll still eat at his restaurant. If I find out he is required to wear an ankle bracelet and isn't allowed within 500 yards of public schools or childcare centres... I might find a new favorite restaurant.
I mean, Stads and I are still planning a beer together sometime, so I mostly agree with what you say - but there are limits. I guess when another's beliefs start entering a grounds that aren't congruent with my own morals/ethics/values, that's where the tipping point starts to give way.
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There's a strong believe these day that my thought process means more than your thought process and I'm going to let you know that these days. It's funny, I never once asked anyone their political leanings. It was, did they treat others with respect? They were a good person. I enjoyed hanging out with them. There's an inclusiveness these days that is not healthy as all.
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I'm sorry, and I know this makes me part of the problem, but I just can't not rag on someone who says things like:
"The point of mandatory vaccination is to identify the sincere Christians in the ranks, the free thinkers, the men with high testosterone levels, and anyone else who doesn't love Joe Biden and make them leave immediately," Carlson said. "It's a takeover of the U.S. military." - Tucker Carlson
It's my personal belief that Tucker is a shithead who is intentionally exploiting people's hesitancies and beliefs for the sole purpose of lining his pockets. His actions/words bring actual harm to people and their families. In no scenario would I ever show that man an ounce of respect. I'm not going to go out of my way to egg his house, or scream obscenities at him should I see him on the street, but I wouldn't waste one second of my life having a beer with that man.
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That's my point. We never did those things 20 odd years ago. Or at least most. Today the % of those who say what they believe and feel has risen to extreme levels.
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I'm sorry, and I know this makes me part of the problem, but I just can't not rag on someone who says things like:
"The point of mandatory vaccination is to identify the sincere Christians in the ranks, the free thinkers, the men with high testosterone levels, and anyone else who doesn't love Joe Biden and make them leave immediately," Carlson said. "It's a takeover of the U.S. military." - Tucker Carlson
It's my personal belief that Tucker is a shithead who is intentionally exploiting people's hesitancies and beliefs for the sole purpose of lining his pockets. His actions/words bring actual harm to people and their families. In no scenario would I ever show that man an ounce of respect. I'm not going to go out of my way to egg his house, or scream obscenities at him should I see him on the street, but I wouldn't waste one second of my life having a beer with that man.
I'm pretty sure the bold is 100% true. As having spoken to someone who knows him, he even agreed with this. Tucker is not nearly as stupid as the things he says. But apparently doesn't have much morals.
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That's my point. We never did those things 20 odd years ago. Or at least most. Today the % of those who say what they believe and feel has risen to extreme levels.
Wouldn't surprise me in the least if the likes of Carlson/Hannity/Jones don't personally believe 1/2 or more of the BS lies information content they spout, but don't care because - as Chino said - they make bank on it.
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I'm sorry, and I know this makes me part of the problem, but I just can't not rag on someone who says things like:
"The point of mandatory vaccination is to identify the sincere Christians in the ranks, the free thinkers, the men with high testosterone levels, and anyone else who doesn't love Joe Biden and make them leave immediately," Carlson said. "It's a takeover of the U.S. military." - Tucker Carlson
It's my personal belief that Tucker is a shithead who is intentionally exploiting people's hesitancies and beliefs for the sole purpose of lining his pockets. His actions/words bring actual harm to people and their families. In no scenario would I ever show that man an ounce of respect. I'm not going to go out of my way to egg his house, or scream obscenities at him should I see him on the street, but I wouldn't waste one second of my life having a beer with that man.
If what he says only affects those unaware/gullible enough to believe his words, why do you care so much?
The ones who should be caring for those people are the ones that are close and personally know them. I could honestly give two shits about someone I don't know, that is until I talk to them and get to know who they are, and that includes their perspectives about politics and religion. Which is quite telling when relationships can be threatened when these two topics are not touched upon at all. This is where one assumes something about a person and acts upon it.
If you talk to people and ask them, they may tell you and they may not, they may also take time to open up to other people about personal matters because they don't want to feel like an outcast and be shunned for even speaking their minds.
But hero's need enemies and someone to tar and feather as it's a part of the game. When that person goes away, people will find another to tar and feather and name-call.
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I'm sorry, and I know this makes me part of the problem, but I just can't not rag on someone who says things like:
"The point of mandatory vaccination is to identify the sincere Christians in the ranks, the free thinkers, the men with high testosterone levels, and anyone else who doesn't love Joe Biden and make them leave immediately," Carlson said. "It's a takeover of the U.S. military." - Tucker Carlson
It's my personal belief that Tucker is a shithead who is intentionally exploiting people's hesitancies and beliefs for the sole purpose of lining his pockets. His actions/words bring actual harm to people and their families. In no scenario would I ever show that man an ounce of respect. I'm not going to go out of my way to egg his house, or scream obscenities at him should I see him on the street, but I wouldn't waste one second of my life having a beer with that man.
If what he says only affects those unaware/gullible enough to believe his words, why do you care so much?
Because I love people who are unaware and gullible.
My grandmother was gullible like you wouldn't believe in her later years. Tucker's program was her favorite show. She couldn't tell you what she had for breakfast as she was taking her last bite of it, but she could rattle off every problem talking point the left had with Kavanaugh when he was being vetted. Had she not died in late 2019, I'd bet my left testicle, my dog, and my home that she would have refused a vaccination solely because of Tucker Carlson.
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San Francisco mayor London Breed, in defense of being photographed at a night club mask less...
"Like, we don't need the fun police to come in and try and micromanage and tell us what we should or shouldn't be doing. We know what we need to do to protect ourselves,"
Liberal politicians make it really hard to defend them sometimes....
Seriously though, she needs to fuck off with this attitude.
Or they just don't care, and are trying to save face when they get caught. They're humans, and are prone to all the faults of the common man. Just because they're a politician doesn't mean they are not capable of this kind of attitude. She's just being exposed by getting caught.
Her initial defense was that "you don't understand, it was the first time in over a decade that the original members of Tony, Toni, Tone performed together"
And when pressed, she doubled down on it.
She's getting dragged in glorious fashion on the radio
Well! In that case, carry on. Nothing to see here.
Yeah, no kidding. I wish I had the full story here before passing judgement! HAHA :) :) :)
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San Francisco mayor London Breed, in defense of being photographed at a night club mask less...
"Like, we don't need the fun police to come in and try and micromanage and tell us what we should or shouldn't be doing. We know what we need to do to protect ourselves,"
Liberal politicians make it really hard to defend them sometimes....
Seriously though, she needs to fuck off with this attitude.
Or they just don't care, and are trying to save face when they get caught. They're humans, and are prone to all the faults of the common man. Just because they're a politician doesn't mean they are not capable of this kind of attitude. She's just being exposed by getting caught.
Her initial defense was that "you don't understand, it was the first time in over a decade that the original members of Tony, Toni, Tone performed together"
And when pressed, she doubled down on it.
She's getting dragged in glorious fashion on the radio
Well! In that case, carry on. Nothing to see here.
Yeah, no kidding. I wish I had the full story here before passing judgement! HAHA :) :) :)
Here's the video, she comes out strong with the Tony Toni Tone defense, then doubles down around 4:40.
https://youtu.be/H03Ds3GNaBo (https://youtu.be/H03Ds3GNaBo)
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I usually don’t post very often and not nearly with this much content, but this has been weighing on me for a couple weeks now.
I noticed some posts here earlier talking about regret. Here’s a shitload of regret to ponder. My aunt and uncle on my mom’s side couldn’t get vaccinated because of certain physical conditions. At least that’s what I was told. Well, you’d think that they would be hunkering down, distancing and following the necessary guidelines instead of going on vacation back in July in the middle of a global pandemic.
Well, guess what? They both get Covid and end up in the hospital. My aunt made it out of the hospital but my uncle didn’t. Ventilator, Tracheotomy, blood transfusion. His body was so worn out from fighting the virus, he died of cardiac arrest. The last thing he knew was giving them permission to induce a medical coma before going on the ventilator. Why anyone would take a chance and put their family through that much grief is unfathomable to me. Completely selfish and ignorant. As tragic and sad as it seems, I’m more pissed off than anything else. WTF were they thinking? A great guy who touched so many lives is senselessly gone. Leaving many family members grieving and scratching their heads. Not only is my aunt living with survivor’s guilt and without her husband, but also with a massive amount of regret for such a bad decision. Baffling. I’m finding it extremely difficult to have any sympathy for that situation. Something that could’ve been avoided with just a shred of common sense (if there is such a thing these days).
It’s been 2 weeks and I’m still pissed off about the whole thing. One of the things that pisses me off the most, hits pretty close to home. 5 years ago my late GF died of a brain hemorrhage due to a cancerous tumor which was previously undetected by doctors. She was gone so suddenly and unexpectedly through no fault of her own. Just gone and didn’t deserve what happened to her. On the other hand, some people make bad decisions and end up paying for it with their lives. Oh and get this. They don’t want to have a memorial service right away because of the pandemic. Duh!!! Sorry, but I can remember a great man on my own without a memorial service thank you very much.
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That is horrible. I'm so sorry.
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Steve, I'm sorry to hear that.
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Thanks guys, I appreciate that but don't feel too sorry for me. Although, it was a stark reminder of my own grieving, this post was more of a rant than anything else.
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If there was a medical reason, as you were told, it's tragic, really.
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Yeah, I echo the sympathy others have expressed. So sorry to hear that.
I feel fortunate that most of my family and other loved ones have been reasonably careful, in terms of getting vaccinated if able, and/or other reasonable precautions. And of those who have not, they have either not gotten it or not gotten sick enough for it to be an issue. I do have two friends that passed away. Both were older. Both were reasonable careful, but knew there could be problems if they got it due to their age and other likely complications. Still, they lived their lives rather than hiding in a hole in the ground. They were both very godly men who knew where they were going if they passed, and as a result of that confidence, there were no regrets on their part, or from their wives or families about anything. I can only wish that for all who may themselves or have family members have a serious run-in with this virus.
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Sorry to hear about your friends Bosk. Yeah, I don't envy the choices that some people are struggling to make, but they do have to be smart and careful choices, or reasonable at best. Not only for themselves but for loved ones as well. We are definitely living in a different reality these days. I'm still trying to come to grips with a few things myself.
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Breaks my heart to hear that bosk1. I'm not a religious MSN but my thoughts are with them.
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Really terrible to read about this, sorry for your losses dubleagent and bosk.
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It’s been 2 weeks and I’m still pissed off about the whole thing. One of the things that pisses me off the most, hits pretty close to home. 5 years ago my late GF died of a brain hemorrhage due to a cancerous tumor which was previously undetected by doctors. She was gone so suddenly and unexpectedly through no fault of her own. Just gone and didn’t deserve what happened to her. On the other hand, some people make bad decisions and end up paying for it with their lives. Oh and get this. They don’t want to have a memorial service right away because of the pandemic. Duh!!! Sorry, but I can remember a great man on my own without a memorial service thank you very much.
I am very sorry about your family...
The bolded is one area where it could be said...How is one supposed to know that she did not deserve what happened to her? There are people who believe in Karma, and likely would have said, "She likely did something in her past life to warrant getting cancer in this lifetime", or "She did something in her past to have the Karma rebound on her now"...The point being, you can't really be saying this either as we do not know whether one deserves to die a certain way. What if this Covid sickness and disease is Karma rebound for all the crap we humans are doing to the Earth? How is one to know that we do not deserve the sicknesses we get because we are damaging the Earth so bad?
It's sad what happens. Here's another story about not having control over people's lives. I have lost many people to issues related to Alcohol Abuse, I am not blaming them for their own decision to drink themselves to death and doing nothing to get help. They chose to continue doing what they're doing, they made that choice with their own judgement. I may not like it, but it's what they chose and I can only accept it because they are in control of THEIR life, not me or anyone else.
This is the decision making process, and these decisions are determined by many, many factors. I talk about people enjoying the comforts of life and not wanting to put them away for awhile for the supposed "better good" of humanity. Such as, traveling to places around the world when there is a pandemic. I really do feel that halting traveling would've been the best possible solution to completely help in wiping the virus as humans transmit the virus by traveling. How else did Delta get here, that strain did not mutate in the US.
This is why I asked the question, Is anyone even asking how these people that can not take the vaccine due to health issues feel about this pandemic? Obviously your uncle and aunt determined that they would rather live their lives and enjoy the comforts rather than stay home and keep safe. They determined they would rather live life than stay at home cooped up and bored.
I know people who got the vaccine and then went to Florida in the middle of their outbreak, and then when they got back, tested positive. They are okay and fine, but there are people out there whom thought and think the vaccine was what they needed to do and did it so they could go wherever the hell they want, and get covid and test positive because they don't have to worry about dying now they got the vaccine.
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Yeah, I echo the sympathy others have expressed. So sorry to hear that.
I feel fortunate that most of my family and other loved ones have been reasonably careful, in terms of getting vaccinated if able, and/or other reasonable precautions. And of those who have not, they have either not gotten it or not gotten sick enough for it to be an issue. I do have two friends that passed away. Both were older. Both were reasonable careful, but knew there could be problems if they got it due to their age and other likely complications. Still, they lived their lives rather than hiding in a hole in the ground. They were both very godly men who knew where they were going if they passed, and as a result of that confidence, there were no regrets on their part, or from their wives or families about anything. I can only wish that for all who may themselves or have family members have a serious run-in with this virus.
Now that is very fascinating. It makes one wonder about accepting Death and having regrets. How people with this belief of knowing where they're going in the afterlife, are accepting of their death and do not regret on their death bed. And this knowing extends to those that believe as well, such as the family. Compared to those that do not know what's going to happen to them when they die. And this perception of what happens after I die, can impact a persons decisions on life and death situations and how they accept or come to terms with the consequences for those life and death situations. And whether the dead persons loved ones will accept the death or not, as they may have some regrets for not being there more for that person that died, or regret for that person for some other personal reasons altogether.
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Dublagent66, sorry to read that as well. My gosh. :( :(
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I miss the days of personal beliefs staying personal.
It doesn't bother me when personal beliefs become public. It just bothers me when judgment happens because of personal beliefs or when people become jackasses in how they express their personal beliefs. If I thought you were a great person that I enjoyed being around, why should that change if I later discover that you believe something I disagree with? You are still the same person. If I enjoy eating at your restaurant because the food is good, I like the service, and/or I like the atmosphere, why would I stop liking any of those things if I later discover the owner believes something I disagree with? The things I like have not changed. Cutting off a person or a business I enjoy and care about just because I later discover that their personal beliefs do not align with mine says more unfavorable things about me than about that person, IMO.
I don't disagree, but there's a continuum of "personal beliefs" that can be tolerated and those that can't be. Like, if I find out my favorite chef likes growls in his death/doom metal, I'll still eat at his restaurant. If I find out he is required to wear an ankle bracelet and isn't allowed within 500 yards of public schools or childcare centres... I might find a new favorite restaurant.
I mean, Stads and I are still planning a beer together sometime, so I mostly agree with what you say - but there are limits. I guess when another's beliefs start entering a grounds that aren't congruent with my own morals/ethics/values, that's where the tipping point starts to give way.
But those examples aren't personal beliefs, Chad. You don't get an ankle bracelet because "you believe age laws are silly". You get it because you broke a law on the books. ACTION. You're just retconning the "belief" into it; there's a very real chance that guy never put an ounce of thought into rationalizing what he did and merely acted on urges. Like you or I did when we walked up to our wives the first time and said "Hey, baby!". You liking a certain music is a visceral physical response to an outside stimulus.
If you start weighing the merits of someone else's PERSONAL BELIEFS - that is the very definition of "judgement" - that's exactly what Bosk is talking about.
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There's a strong believe these day that my thought process means more than your thought process and I'm going to let you know that these days. It's funny, I never once asked anyone their political leanings. It was, did they treat others with respect? They were a good person. I enjoyed hanging out with them. There's an inclusiveness these days that is not healthy as all.
I grew up thinking that you don't ask. I never knew who ANYONE in my friend circle voted for up until pretty much the 2008 Obama election (For perspective, I was 41 when that election occurred). I know I never told anyone for whom I voted (and still rarely do; my wife knows but most of my friends outside of here have no idea). Now it's like a badge of courage and if you voted for the "wrong" person, you're a pariah. Fuck that; my decision on who I vote for is complicated and CANNOT be reduced to that simplistic a level.
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I'm sorry, and I know this makes me part of the problem, but I just can't not rag on someone who says things like:
"The point of mandatory vaccination is to identify the sincere Christians in the ranks, the free thinkers, the men with high testosterone levels, and anyone else who doesn't love Joe Biden and make them leave immediately," Carlson said. "It's a takeover of the U.S. military." - Tucker Carlson
It's my personal belief that Tucker is a shithead who is intentionally exploiting people's hesitancies and beliefs for the sole purpose of lining his pockets. His actions/words bring actual harm to people and their families. In no scenario would I ever show that man an ounce of respect. I'm not going to go out of my way to egg his house, or scream obscenities at him should I see him on the street, but I wouldn't waste one second of my life having a beer with that man.
I (respectfully) disagree with you, but I also believe, more strongly, in personal autonomy. YOU get to decide what's right for you, not me. Having said that, I would hope that when you see OTHER people intentionally exploiting people's hesitancies (I'll use "fears" here) you voice the same objection. Like when Kirsten Gillebrand says "Women will DIE if Brett Kavanaugh is confirmed!". I'm not defending Tucker Carlson - he's a sensationalist that is also part of the problem - but it's not JUST him, it's not JUST vaccines, it's not JUST conservatives. This is all part of the problem we're talking about here.
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But those examples aren't personal beliefs, Chad. You don't get an ankle bracelet because "you believe age laws are silly". You get it because you broke a law on the books. ACTION. You're just retconning the "belief" into it; there's a very real chance that guy never put an ounce of thought into rationalizing what he did and merely acted on urges. Like you or I did when we walked up to our wives the first time and said "Hey, baby!". You liking a certain music is a visceral physical response to an outside stimulus.
If you start weighing the merits of someone else's PERSONAL BELIEFS - that is the very definition of "judgement" - that's exactly what Bosk is talking about.
Fair points. I do think there are limits though - that when beliefs and values are so very opposite, that it doesn't matter how much I like the other personality traits, or their business, or whatever .... something is going to be different. So goes the saying, ignorance is bliss.
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Sorry to hear about your friends Bosk. Yeah, I don't envy the choices that some people are struggling to make, but they do have to be smart and careful choices, or reasonable at best. Not only for themselves but for loved ones as well. We are definitely living in a different reality these days. I'm still trying to come to grips with a few things myself.
So, so sorry for your loss.
Look, not really the place, but I'm trusting you at your word, and since you wrote that, I feel it's okay to respond. If it's insensitive, you have my apologies up front, and I'll stand down...
But... they don't "have" to be smart and careful and reasonable. We make unsmart, careless and unreasonable choices all the time. Smoking, speeding, jumping out of planes, getting into fistfights... even some of those "harm" (or have the potential to harm) other people. My uncle died of COVID, and whether he was "smart" or not, or "deserved" it or not... I have no idea. He was a man of God, and while I don't share the exact beliefs he did, I have to trust, as a autonomous, competent man, he made the choices he wanted to make. I would expect nothing less of others when I pass.
Most of the things we talk about in this world - tolerance, acceptance, understanding, respect, courtesy - are REALLY easy when we're sitting in our mom's basement playing keyboard warrior. They are REALLY easy when dealing with people who have the exact same mindset, belief system and moral compass as we do. They get REALLY HARD and really quickly when we're dealing with people do DON'T share our mindset, who adhere to a different belief system and who follow a different moral map than we do. That's really the test for me and I think we - at least in America - are failing miserably. I think it boils down to a massive insecurity that is crippling our country. We NEED the validation of others that think like us and we've come to the point that we consider those that don't a threat. This is "fight or flight" writ large, in my opinion.
It's dumb luck (or genes) but I've never formed my beliefs in a crucible that contained anyone else. They've always been in my head, and I've rarely shared them (still rarely; you all get to see/hear it, but other than with my therapist and sometimes my wife, I RARELY talk about ANY of this day-to-day. Work is inappropriate for this, and with all I have going on, if I'm out having beers with my friends, I'd rather talk about football or the weather or cars or music or our other friends. I get enough of this shit shoveled down my throat uninvited, I don't want to be "on my guard" during my recreation time). As a result, I get no validation from others' beliefs, and I'm not threatened by them. Someone wants to be called "them/theirs", okay. I'll do my best to remember and to accommodate. Not because I understand (I don't, really, not deep down), not because I agree (or not) but because it's not my place to judge. Call yourself Achilles for all I care. Don't want to mask, okay. I'll do my best to stay six feet from you and/or outside. If I can't, I have a decision to make, not you.
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But those examples aren't personal beliefs, Chad. You don't get an ankle bracelet because "you believe age laws are silly". You get it because you broke a law on the books. ACTION. You're just retconning the "belief" into it; there's a very real chance that guy never put an ounce of thought into rationalizing what he did and merely acted on urges. Like you or I did when we walked up to our wives the first time and said "Hey, baby!". You liking a certain music is a visceral physical response to an outside stimulus.
If you start weighing the merits of someone else's PERSONAL BELIEFS - that is the very definition of "judgement" - that's exactly what Bosk is talking about.
Fair points. I do think there are limits though - that when beliefs and values are so very opposite, that it doesn't matter how much I like the other personality traits, or their business, or whatever .... something is going to be different. So goes the saying, ignorance is bliss.
I suppose; I guess I've never (knowingly) gotten to that limit. Seriously. So many things for me are a matter of personal discretion, and I'm so used to separating the two. Within the bounds of consent, who you sleep with, what you ingest, who/what you worship... not my business (just like it's none of yours - collective - what I do). Then again, I've never met someone that I KNOW for a fact killed someone in cold blood, or I KNOW for a fact diddled a five year old. Then again, those are actions, not beliefs.
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my decision on who I vote for is complicated
Never would have guessed! :neveruusethis:
Within the bounds of consent, who you sleep with, what you ingest, who/what you worship... not my business (just like it's none of yours - collective - what I do).
I'm with you on all of that. I don't have a good example right off the top of my head, I just know there are limits as to what I can/will tolerate when it comes to beliefs and values.
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Within the bounds of consent, who you sleep with, what you ingest, who/what you worship... not my business (just like it's none of yours - collective - what I do).
I'm with you on all of that. I don't have a good example right off the top of my head, I just know there are limits as to what I can/will tolerate when it comes to beliefs and values.
Chad, I started responding to your earlier post about an example. But then I scratched it.
Like for me, I will not associate with someone that believes it's OK to fuck around on his wife.
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Within the bounds of consent, who you sleep with, what you ingest, who/what you worship... not my business (just like it's none of yours - collective - what I do).
I'm with you on all of that. I don't have a good example right off the top of my head, I just know there are limits as to what I can/will tolerate when it comes to beliefs and values.
Chad, I started responding to your earlier post about an example. But then I scratched it.
Like for me, I will not associate with someone that believes it's OK to fuck around on his wife.
To be clear, I've never fucked around on my wife! :)
But that's complicated too; I have a friend, a close friend from college, who I suspect has an open marriage. I don't know this, but I suspect it. If they are both in agreement, does that matter?
I have another friend, a close friend from high school, who not long ago confessed to me that he was one phone call away from ditching his marriage of about 25 years and running off with another woman (who got cold feet). What am I supposed to do? "Hey look, friend, we've been through thick and thin, but you're out!"
I remember being one of those that said "Hillary ought to leave that piece of shit and teach him what's what!" Then I was cheated on in my marriage and stayed for... probably six years or so (and that wasn't the specific reason we ended our marriage).
I don't know; I'm not saying I'm right - I have no idea! - I just know I don't see a lot of hard lines and right angles in nature. It's never that easy for me.
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Within the bounds of consent, who you sleep with, what you ingest, who/what you worship... not my business (just like it's none of yours - collective - what I do).
I'm with you on all of that. I don't have a good example right off the top of my head, I just know there are limits as to what I can/will tolerate when it comes to beliefs and values.
Chad, I started responding to your earlier post about an example. But then I scratched it.
Like for me, I will not associate with someone that believes it's OK to fuck around on his wife.
There are cultures that are okay with polygamy and the women do not have a problem with it. What if you were to run into one of these people who has many wives and mistresses?
Marriage itself and the formation of it is determined by the culture and society. Some marriages are determined by the women more so than the men. Some dish out extreme punishments for breaking the marriage, it may be even be a sign of disrespect and the couple may end up shunned.
This judgement of people's beliefs has led to culture clashes and we know through history what happened because of that culture clash of judgement of beliefs.
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Within the bounds of consent, who you sleep with, what you ingest, who/what you worship... not my business (just like it's none of yours - collective - what I do).
I'm with you on all of that. I don't have a good example right off the top of my head, I just know there are limits as to what I can/will tolerate when it comes to beliefs and values.
Chad, I started responding to your earlier post about an example. But then I scratched it.
Like for me, I will not associate with someone that believes it's OK to fuck around on his wife.
To be clear, I've never fucked around on my wife! :)
But that's complicated too; I have a friend, a close friend from college, who I suspect has an open marriage. I don't know this, but I suspect it. If they are both in agreement, does that matter?
I have another friend, a close friend from high school, who not long ago confessed to me that he was one phone call away from ditching his marriage of about 25 years and running off with another woman (who got cold feet). What am I supposed to do? "Hey look, friend, we've been through thick and thin, but you're out!"
I remember being one of those that said "Hillary ought to leave that piece of shit and teach him what's what!" Then I was cheated on in my marriage and stayed for... probably six years or so (and that wasn't the specific reason we ended our marriage).
I don't know; I'm not saying I'm right - I have no idea! - I just know I don't see a lot of hard lines and right angles in nature. It's never that easy for me.
OK, well I have no issue with a guy that has an open marriage. That at least is a joint decision. And for the guy that ditches his wife, I can at least respect that. If he was banging some chick on the side, I'd have an issue with it, but if he leaves her outright...I don't have an issue with that.
I also have no problem with a couple trying to salvage a marriage after infidelity.
None of your examples really illustrate what I was saying.
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Within the bounds of consent, who you sleep with, what you ingest, who/what you worship... not my business (just like it's none of yours - collective - what I do).
I'm with you on all of that. I don't have a good example right off the top of my head, I just know there are limits as to what I can/will tolerate when it comes to beliefs and values.
Chad, I started responding to your earlier post about an example. But then I scratched it.
Like for me, I will not associate with someone that believes it's OK to fuck around on his wife.
There are cultures that are okay with polygamy and the women do not have a problem with it. What if you were to run into one of these people who has many wives and mistresses?
Marriage itself and the formation of it is determined by the culture and society. Some marriages are determined by the women more so than the men. Some dish out extreme punishments for breaking the marriage, it may be even be a sign of disrespect and the couple may end up shunned.
This judgement of people's beliefs has led to culture clashes and we know through history what happened because of that culture clash of judgement of beliefs.
Ben, I'm obviously not fucking talking about marriage in different cultures. WTF?
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It’s been 2 weeks and I’m still pissed off about the whole thing. One of the things that pisses me off the most, hits pretty close to home. 5 years ago my late GF died of a brain hemorrhage due to a cancerous tumor which was previously undetected by doctors. She was gone so suddenly and unexpectedly through no fault of her own. Just gone and didn’t deserve what happened to her. On the other hand, some people make bad decisions and end up paying for it with their lives. Oh and get this. They don’t want to have a memorial service right away because of the pandemic. Duh!!! Sorry, but I can remember a great man on my own without a memorial service thank you very much.
I am very sorry about your family...
That's all you really needed to say. The rest is nothing but a bunch of know-it-all, self righteous windbaggery. The bolded part is none of your business. You didn't know her and you don't know me. You should probably be more concerned about how karma will catch up with you instead of speculating about others.
Sorry to hear about your friends Bosk. Yeah, I don't envy the choices that some people are struggling to make, but they do have to be smart and careful choices, or reasonable at best. Not only for themselves but for loved ones as well. We are definitely living in a different reality these days. I'm still trying to come to grips with a few things myself.
So, so sorry for your loss.
Look, not really the place, but I'm trusting you at your word, and since you wrote that, I feel it's okay to respond. If it's insensitive, you have my apologies up front, and I'll stand down...
But... they don't "have" to be smart and careful and reasonable.
Thanks Stads. Of course people's decisions don't "have" to be smart, careful and reasonable if they don't care about how potential consequences may affect not only themselves but their loved ones as well. That's totally up to them I suppose. I appreciate the insight, but I think you pretty much understand the point I was trying to make. The choices people make can have a profound affect on others around them. I'm sure everyone could use a little work in that area of being more thoughtful. Next time you respond, can I have the Cliff Notes version? I'm not much into reading encyclopedias. :lol
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I'm sure everyone could use a little work in that area of being more thoughtful.
I know I can. Your reminder is definitely taken to heart.
Stads...Next time you respond, can I have the Cliff Notes version? I'm not much into reading encyclopedias. :lol
Stads gonna Stad. :hat
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Two San Francisco bay area counties are over 90% with at least one shot, with San Mateo at 94% and Marin county at 97%. That's fucking impressive
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Is that percentage of eligible recipients? If it is overall percentage, I'm not sure how they get there given that kids can't get it yet.
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Is that percentage of eligible recipients? If it is overall percentage, I'm not sure how they get there given that kids can't get it yet.
Yeah, I would assume it's the eligible recipients. They were chatting it up on kgo while I was working so I may have missed that detail.
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Still a great stat.
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Still a great stat.
Just saw an article that had 90% fully vaxxed in Marin.
California as a whole is at 69%.... Nice....
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Yeah, definitely impressive. In Ontario we're just above 86% of eligible recipients with at least one jab; 80% fully vax'd.
Once the 5-11 age group gets approved, that's the next thing that will move the needle - figuratively and literally.
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Just got asked to show proof of vaccination for the first time. Know what I did? I showed him with a smile, cause that's what heroes do.
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Just got asked to show proof of vaccination for the first time. Know what I did? I showed him with a smile, cause that's what heroes do.
Not all heroes wear capes.
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Just got asked to show proof of vaccination for the first time. Know what I did? I showed him with a smile, cause that's what heroes do.
It was a picture of your ass with the card. AMIRITE?!
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Just got asked to show proof of vaccination for the first time. Know what I did? I showed him with a smile, cause that's what heroes do.
It was a picture of your ass with the card. AMIRITE?!
Actually, I got my card tattooed on my ass...
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Thought I was the only one. :dunno:
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Thought I was the only one. :dunno:
Ahem...
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Norway will "re-open" tomorrow at 4 PM. No restrictions on anything. It's been 562 days. Woop!
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Booster scheduled for tomorrow afternoon...hoping the third one will finally boost my inner magnetism.
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Booster scheduled for tomorrow afternoon...hoping the third one will finally boost my inner magnetism.
HAHA! :tup
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And it's in the arm. Felt like a bigger dose, could actually feel the liquid this time. Then again, last time my nurse angrily stabbed me with the fucking thing so I may not have noticed then lol.
I'll keep y'all posted of any detrimental stuff.
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Felt the liquid eh?
:eyebrows:
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Felt the liquid eh?
:eyebrows:
You just had to make it weird.
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I honestly thought the same when you typed it out like that.
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Felt the liquid eh?
:eyebrows:
:lol
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:lol I actually think if anything the booster is less vaccine by 50%. I read that was Pfizer's plan to keep production of first vaccines and boosters without compromising doses they plan to produce, but not sure if that's the reality right now.
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Felt the liquid eh?
:eyebrows:
You just had to make it weird.
Weird? Take it like a man bro. :lol
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:lol
:lol I actually think if anything the booster is less vaccine by 50%. I read that was Pfizer's plan to keep production of first vaccines and boosters without compromising doses they plan to produce, but not sure if that's the reality right now.
Just talked with my cousin and his wife real quick, they're both pharmacists, and they confirmed all the doses are the same amount, 0.3ml.
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Morning update, still alive, but my arm fucking hurts, like way worse than the first two. Either that's how it is, or I've just become a bigger pussy in the past six months, but I can barely lift it above my shoulder.
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Morning update, still alive, but my arm fucking hurts, like way worse than the first two. Either that's how it is, or I've just become a bigger pussy in the past six months, but I can barely lift it above my shoulder.
I assume that'll make your downtime less fun.
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Morning update, still alive, but my arm fucking hurts, like way worse than the first two. Either that's how it is, or I've just become a bigger pussy in the past six months, but I can barely lift it above my shoulder.
I assume that'll make your downtime less fun.
I'm right handed, it'll still work.
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Morning update, still alive, but my arm fucking hurts, like way worse than the first two. Either that's how it is, or I've just become a bigger pussy in the past six months, but I can barely lift it above my shoulder.
I assume that'll make your downtime less fun.
I'm right handed, it'll still work.
Again I refer to your avatar.
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:lol
:lol I actually think if anything the booster is less vaccine by 50%. I read that was Pfizer's plan to keep production of first vaccines and boosters without compromising doses they plan to produce, but not sure if that's the reality right now.
Just talked with my cousin and his wife real quick, they're both pharmacists, and they confirmed all the doses are the same amount, 0.3ml.
No argument; they are professionals not me, but I thought I saw on my local news about two/three weeks ago something along the lines of what Cram said. My local news does a "We Verify!" segment - kind of like a news version of Snopes - and they did a piece on that. Maybe it changed.
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:lol I actually think if anything the booster is less vaccine by 50%. I read that was Pfizer's plan to keep production of first vaccines and boosters without compromising doses they plan to produce, but not sure if that's the reality right now.
Just talked with my cousin and his wife real quick, they're both pharmacists, and they confirmed all the doses are the same amount, 0.3ml.
Yeah, everything I see today is that it's the exact same dosage and same vaccine. I can't find where I read they were going to half the dose of boosters to keep supply.
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Here's the FDA fact sheet my cousin forwarded to me...
https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download (https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download)
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:lol
:lol I actually think if anything the booster is less vaccine by 50%. I read that was Pfizer's plan to keep production of first vaccines and boosters without compromising doses they plan to produce, but not sure if that's the reality right now.
Just talked with my cousin and his wife real quick, they're both pharmacists, and they confirmed all the doses are the same amount, 0.3ml.
No argument; they are professionals not me, but I thought I saw on my local news about two/three weeks ago something along the lines of what Cram said. My local news does a "We Verify!" segment - kind of like a news version of Snopes - and they did a piece on that. Maybe it changed.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/78078885/fake-news.jpg)
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Morning update, still alive, but my arm fucking hurts, like way worse than the first two. Either that's how it is, or I've just become a bigger pussy in the past six months, but I can barely lift it above my shoulder.
(https://i.imgur.com/iW1finJ.jpg)
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Morning update, still alive, but my arm fucking hurts, like way worse than the first two. Either that's how it is, or I've just become a bigger pussy in the past six months, but I can barely lift it above my shoulder.
(https://i.imgur.com/iW1finJ.jpg)
:lol
Guilty as charged.
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I'm just foolin', brother mine.
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I'm concerned with the high number of hospital staff being fired across the U.S. due to the mandate. Hospitals are already short of clinical staff. This will really present challenges and ultimately the patients will suffer.
There are systems that have notified hundreds of employees that they will be terminated by November or December. Gonna be rough sailing for the foreseeable future in the healthcare industry.
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I'm concerned with the high number of hospital staff being fired across the U.S. due to the mandate. Hospitals are already short of clinical staff. This will really present challenges and ultimately the patients will suffer.
There are systems that have notified hundreds of employees that they will be terminated by November or December. Gonna be rough sailing for the f I rideable future in the healthcare industry.
Terminated for refusing the vaccine? Don't they have the option to be tested or did they refuse that?
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I'm concerned with the high number of hospital staff being fired across the U.S. due to the mandate. Hospitals are already short of clinical staff. This will really present challenges and ultimately the patients will suffer.
There are systems that have notified hundreds of employees that they will be terminated by November or December. Gonna be rough sailing for the f I rideable future in the healthcare industry.
This definitely could be bad, but so far, the reality of people actually quitting is very low.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/all-that-tough-talk-over-quitting-jobs-over-a-covid-vaccine-mandate-is-really-just-idle-threats-11632491048 (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/all-that-tough-talk-over-quitting-jobs-over-a-covid-vaccine-mandate-is-really-just-idle-threats-11632491048)
Basically, people say they will quit in surveys, but when the time comes most comply. Granted, even a 2% loss of workers could be detrimental in some areas.
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I'm concerned with the high number of hospital staff being fired across the U.S. due to the mandate. Hospitals are already short of clinical staff. This will really present challenges and ultimately the patients will suffer.
There are systems that have notified hundreds of employees that they will be terminated by November or December. Gonna be rough sailing for the f I rideable future in the healthcare industry.
Terminated for refusing the vaccine? Don't they have the option to be tested or did they refuse that?
With the rules that I've seen, there is no such option. Get vaccinated.
Which makes sense to me. They are in the medical profession.
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Yes, for not getting the vaccine. Not sure of how each system is presenting options for their staff as far as testing. I'm reading multiple articles from multiple states. NY is really aggressive.
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I work for a large healthcare system in Chicago and the surrounding area. Our rule is get vaccinated or get fired. No testing option.
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The testing option is part of Biden's mandate I believe. Hospitals historically always require vaccinations from my understanding. It's really not anything new.
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The testing option is part of Biden's mandate I believe. Hospitals historically always require vaccinations from my understanding. It's really not anything new.
This is true. I always refused flu vaccines (until COVID hit) and couldn't get a job at a hospital because of it.
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Yep, we have the same rule for the flu vaccine. Get it or get out. I never got one my entire life until a few years ago when it got tied to employment. I never really got the flu ever so I just didn't bother. Didn't complain when they mandated it for the flu. I actually have to get my shot in 2 weeks or so.
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I'm concerned with the high number of hospital staff being fired across the U.S. due to the mandate. Hospitals are already short of clinical staff. This will really present challenges and ultimately the patients will suffer.
There are systems that have notified hundreds of employees that they will be terminated by November or December. Gonna be rough sailing for the foreseeable future in the healthcare industry.
I'm not being rhetorical, I'm sincerely asking. Is there a difference between them being fired or quitting?
We had a similar situation here in CT regarding bus drivers. Everyone was gearing up for school's going remote because there wouldn't be enough vaccinated drivers to get the kids to the schools. End of the day, five drivers didn't show up for work. I think it might be different for healthcare workers and certainly the consequences are potentially different, but still.
I do know this; a good close friend of mine had an emergency appendectomy about four days ago. He is relatively a-political, but he felt compelled to go on a local Town forum and relate his story, because virtually every aspect of his time in, from emergency room, through laproscopic surgery, through discharge, was in some way impacted by COVID, more specifically the burden placed on the hospitals by COVID.
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I'm concerned with the high number of hospital staff being fired across the U.S. due to the mandate. Hospitals are already short of clinical staff. This will really present challenges and ultimately the patients will suffer.
There are systems that have notified hundreds of employees that they will be terminated by November or December. Gonna be rough sailing for the foreseeable future in the healthcare industry.
I'm not being rhetorical, I'm sincerely asking. Is there a difference between them being fired or quitting?
We had a similar situation here in CT regarding bus drivers. Everyone was gearing up for school's going remote because there wouldn't be enough vaccinated drivers to get the kids to the schools. End of the day, five drivers didn't show up for work. I think it might be different for healthcare workers and certainly the consequences are potentially different, but still.
I do know this; a good close friend of mine had an emergency appendectomy about four days ago. He is relatively a-political, but he felt compelled to go on a local Town forum and relate his story, because virtually every aspect of his time in, from emergency room, through laproscopic surgery, through discharge, was in some way impacted by COVID, more specifically the burden placed on the hospitals by COVID.
As far as adequate patient care is concerned, I'd say zero difference. A net loss of a qualified healthcare worker is a net loss either way.
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I'm just foolin', brother mine.
:heart
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Something I never see anyone talk about.
Any vaccine, as far as I know, gets tested for a lengthy amount of time, and once released and causes 50 deaths, is pulled from use and the authorization is recanted,
except this one.
Depending on where you look, the covid vax had caused somewhere between 16,000 and upwards of 50,000 deaths, in the US.
Still, this drug hasn't been pulled or scrutinized in any way. Why is that???
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Depending on where you look, the covid vax had caused somewhere between 16,000 and upwards of 50,000 deaths, in the US.
Still, this drug hasn't been pulled or scrutinized in any way. Why is that???
Source?
I have one published today
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/09/10/fact-check-no-evidence-vaccine-related-complications-killed-45-000/8256978002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/09/10/fact-check-no-evidence-vaccine-related-complications-killed-45-000/8256978002/)
“To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine," she wrote in an email.
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I don't trust any one source, these companies got the media outlets by the balls,
but the point is, no matter where you look, well more than 50 Americans died from taking the jab, but yet it's still available.
VAERS is a government website. If they aren't trustworthy, why should the FDA or CDC be trustworthy?
The FDA allowed poisonous ingredients to be put into foods and medicines for decades, they take profit from the companies that poison us.
The FDA approved Zantac, and millions of people got cancer from it over the last 15 or so years.
The FDA openly admitted that they knew there was a cancer causing ingredient in Zantac and they allowed it anyway because it was “only trace amounts of a cancer causing ingredient”.
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I also believe covid has been so politicized that many who lean more left ALSO are skeptical about the virus and the so-called vaccines, are just as upset over so-called mandates and restrictions and everything else that goes against the science surrounding antibodies of those previously infected, fake news about 'pandemic of the unvaccinated' and on and on...
but are too embarrassed to say or do anything about it, because of politics...
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is it that time again? must be tuesday
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https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/09/10/fact-check-no-evidence-vaccine-related-complications-killed-45-000/8256978002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/09/10/fact-check-no-evidence-vaccine-related-complications-killed-45-000/8256978002/)
My response is: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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Depending on where you look, the covid vax had caused somewhere between 16,000 and upwards of 50,000 deaths, in the US.
Still, this drug hasn't been pulled or scrutinized in any way. Why is that???
I don't trust any one source, these companies got the media outlets by the balls,
If you believe the first quote is correct, then you must've heard it somewhere..
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Depending on where you look, the covid vax had caused somewhere between 16,000 and upwards of 50,000 deaths, in the US.
Still, this drug hasn't been pulled or scrutinized in any way. Why is that???
I don't trust any one source, these companies got the media outlets by the balls,
If you believe the first quote is correct, then you must've heard it somewhere..
It's anywhere between 16,000 and 50,000, depending on the source, so even if the low end is more accurate, which is what VAERS reports, it's still more than 50.
I take it all with a grain of salt. Maybe it's zero and VAERS is a completely untrustworthy source, but then, what other areas of the government are untrustworthy? Rhetorical.
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https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/09/10/fact-check-no-evidence-vaccine-related-complications-killed-45-000/8256978002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/09/10/fact-check-no-evidence-vaccine-related-complications-killed-45-000/8256978002/)
My response is: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A news article with 'fact checkers' doesn't change my mind.
Example:
The Ivermectin overdose story wound up being a fake story published by Rolling Stone, picked up by every news outlet,
story was found to be false, was never retracted by 'fact checkers'. Social media didn't raise awareness about the story being fake.
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is it that time again? must be tuesday
:lol
I was hoping he got lost.
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is it that time again? must be tuesday
:lol
I was hoping he got lost.
Must've left a trail of Zantac. Which is risky in and of itself - I heard touching Zantac causes eczema. And I don't trust any website with "usa" in the url - today, tomorrow, yesterday.... doesn't matter. Not trustworthy at all.
BTW, where's that damned "Translate" button Bosk has been promising us for a while?
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I've always liked Frank Hannon. Always came across as a genuinely good dude. I like him even more now that he admits he was on the wrong side of the vaccine debate.
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/teslas-frank-hannon-admits-he-was-wrong-about-covid-19-vaccine-i-went-through-a-month-of-hell/
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I've always liked Frank Hannon. Always came across as a genuinely good dude. I like him even more now that he admits he was on the wrong side of the vaccine debate.
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/teslas-frank-hannon-admits-he-was-wrong-about-covid-19-vaccine-i-went-through-a-month-of-hell/
Respect to Frank Hannon.
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is it that time again? must be tuesday
:lol
I was hoping he got lost.
Must've left a trail of Zantac. Which is risky in and of itself - I heard touching Zantac causes eczema. And I don't trust any website with "usa" in the url - today, tomorrow, yesterday.... doesn't matter. Not trustworthy at all.
BTW, where's that damned "Translate" button Bosk has been promising us for a while?
Some things are better left untranslated my friend.
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I don't trust any one source, these companies got the media outlets by the balls,
Really, the media outlets in most of the world? Every country in the world? No exceptions? Because if 16 000 Americans factually died of these same vaccines and that's about the rough risk of death you can expect and no one just made that up out of thin air, then we would also have 2616 dead Spaniards, 3500 dead Frenchies, 300 dead Norwegians (which would be major news considering only 800 people died of COVID and the AZ vaccine was practically thrown in the dumpster after <5 deaths), 3140 dead Italians, and yet... crickets.
Almost as if someone made that up to make the vaccines look as dangerous as the virus.
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I don't trust any one source, these companies got the media outlets by the balls,
Really, the media outlets in most of the world? Every country in the world? No exceptions? Because if 16 000 Americans factually died of these same vaccines and that's about the rough risk of death you can expect and no one just made that up out of thin air, then we would also have 2616 dead Spaniards, 3500 dead Frenchies, 300 dead Norwegians (which would be major news considering only 800 people died of COVID and the AZ vaccine was practically thrown in the dumpster after <5 deaths), 3140 dead Italians, and yet... crickets.
Almost as if someone made that up to make the vaccines look as dangerous as the virus.
It’s a global media conspiracy that the Democrats control!!
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Again, though.... we're seemingly celebrating the one-line snide dismissal and somehow that's fine and moving the conversation along even though it brings nothing to the table and mocking the guy that at least is putting the debate out there, and to me that takes far more courage than snarky one-liners. I'm not suggesting that he's right, but that doesn't mean we should mock and dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Just as one example: We KNOW the media is a part of this. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/world/covid-coverage-by-the-us-national-media-is-an-outlier-a-study-finds.html) There are COUNTLESS other articles about this one-sided-ness of the media coverage as well if the NY Times isn't your "source". Whether Darkshade has the answers or not - I don't think he does - these are questions that benefit all of us from the asking.
There will be more Frank Hannons if we respond to people like Darkshade with civility, facts and information. There will be more people dying of regret and shitting on Nancy Pelosi's desk if we respond to people like Darkshade with snark, mockery and derision.
IMO.
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The restrictions are lifted here in Sweden today. We'll see what comes of this.
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Again, though.... we're seemingly celebrating the one-line snide dismissal and somehow that's fine and moving the conversation along even though it brings nothing to the table and mocking the guy that at least is putting the debate out there, and to me that takes far more courage than snarky one-liners. I'm not suggesting that he's right, but that doesn't mean we should mock and dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Just as one example: We KNOW the media is a part of this. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/world/covid-coverage-by-the-us-national-media-is-an-outlier-a-study-finds.html) There are COUNTLESS other articles about this one-sided-ness of the media coverage as well if the NY Times isn't your "source". Whether Darkshade has the answers or not - I don't think he does - these are questions that benefit all of us from the asking.
There will be more Frank Hannons if we respond to people like Darkshade with civility, facts and information. There will be more people dying of regret and shitting on Nancy Pelosi's desk if we respond to people like Darkshade with snark, mockery and derision.
IMO.
In my opinion, when someone goes that far off the reservation, logical discourse goes with them, and only mockery is left. I'm tired of giving any sense of legitimacy to such flagrantly wrong and downright dangerous rhetoric.
In unrelated news, the Vatican has instituted a vaccine mandate for its employees. Guess Catholics can toss there religious exemptions out the window.
And my arm pain is already gone, the only remaining side effect of the booster is a boost to my immune system.
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Again, though.... we're seemingly celebrating the one-line snide dismissal and somehow that's fine and moving the conversation along even though it brings nothing to the table and mocking the guy that at least is putting the debate out there, and to me that takes far more courage than snarky one-liners. I'm not suggesting that he's right, but that doesn't mean we should mock and dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Just as one example: We KNOW the media is a part of this. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/world/covid-coverage-by-the-us-national-media-is-an-outlier-a-study-finds.html) There are COUNTLESS other articles about this one-sided-ness of the media coverage as well if the NY Times isn't your "source". Whether Darkshade has the answers or not - I don't think he does - these are questions that benefit all of us from the asking.
There will be more Frank Hannons if we respond to people like Darkshade with civility, facts and information. There will be more people dying of regret and shitting on Nancy Pelosi's desk if we respond to people like Darkshade with snark, mockery and derision.
IMO.
In my opinion, when someone goes that far off the reservation, logical discourse goes with them, and only mockery is left. I'm tired of giving any sense of legitimacy to such flagrantly wrong and downright dangerous rhetoric.
^This. I'm sick and tired that the "correct" response is to educate and inform those that subscribe to an alternate set of actual facts. If after 19 months of this, someone still subscribes and believes such blatant and ridiculous misinformation, I got nothing for them.
And instead of chastising those of us that "mock"* these behaviours/statements, where is the chastising of the behaviours/statements themselves? Even a "c'mon man!" Or do you believe there is even a shred of possibility that between 16k and 50k people have died from a COVID vaccine - a claim I've heard absolutely zero about**, and the claimant provides nothing other than their own statement. If you were to put on your lawyer hat, how would that workout in a courtroom?
Lastly, to the bolded part, I'm not sure what questions you're referring to. Questions about 16k-50k deaths from a vaccine? If so, I disagree... there is no benefit in debating that - it only provides some manner of legitimacy to those making those claims.
* what you call mocking, I call throwing some humour at it, because there is simply no way to take it with any shred of seriousness.
** and to Milena's point, in Canada we put a stop to AZ for a few weeks when there was ONE death that was attributed to it, and then restrictions after it (simply to use up the supply we had), and then for all intents and purposes, discontinued it's use.
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Again, though.... we're seemingly celebrating the one-line snide dismissal and somehow that's fine and moving the conversation along even though it brings nothing to the table and mocking the guy that at least is putting the debate out there, and to me that takes far more courage than snarky one-liners. I'm not suggesting that he's right, but that doesn't mean we should mock and dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Just as one example: We KNOW the media is a part of this. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/world/covid-coverage-by-the-us-national-media-is-an-outlier-a-study-finds.html) There are COUNTLESS other articles about this one-sided-ness of the media coverage as well if the NY Times isn't your "source". Whether Darkshade has the answers or not - I don't think he does - these are questions that benefit all of us from the asking.
There will be more Frank Hannons if we respond to people like Darkshade with civility, facts and information. There will be more people dying of regret and shitting on Nancy Pelosi's desk if we respond to people like Darkshade with snark, mockery and derision.
IMO.
In my opinion, when someone goes that far off the reservation, logical discourse goes with them, and only mockery is left. I'm tired of giving any sense of legitimacy to such flagrantly wrong and downright dangerous rhetoric.
And I'm saying this: it's not JUST about him. It's about all the other people that MIGHT feel like he does or might be swayed. I'm also saying that the snark and snide is just as dangerous because it REINFORCES that thinking for those inclined to go that way.
Look at it this way: imagine you're someone that has doubts. That's fair, that's human. You come to a place like this, and you hear him putting "information" out there. And you see the response as a series of snarky, bring-nothing-to-the-table one-liners. Which are you going to spend the most time with? What's to investigate or dig into with "It's TUESDAY!"?
If the information is wrong, and we WANT the right information out there, it's on us to put it there. That's partly why Dave gets so many accolades for his posts; he's putting INFORMATION out there, not snark, derision and dismissal.
In unrelated news, the Vatican has instituted a vaccine mandate for its employees. Guess Catholics can toss there religious exemptions out the window.
I think the Catholic Church was largely there already. (https://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/guest-commentary/os-op-biden-religious-exemption-vaccine-catholic-20210907-pporoadjpjd3ni5tn6rhclhaxy-story.html) There was some dissension, but the Bishops of the largest jurisdictions - New York, Philly, Chicago - have refused to grant religious exemptions after Biden said it was up to church elders to make that determination.
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We've tried reason and information in the past here, he continually dismisses it, and moves goalposts with impunity. It's pointless.
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Look at it this way: imagine you're someone that has doubts. That's fair, that's human. You come to a place like this, and you hear him putting "information" out there. And you see the response as a series of snarky, bring-nothing-to-the-table one-liners. Which are you going to spend the most time with? What's to investigate or dig into with "It's TUESDAY!"?
In this case, we asked for sources of the claim, and got none. Sometimes there is no place to calmly discuss merits of baseless claims. Someone comes in here and claims the Earth rotates the Sun. You gonna go dig up the scientific proof that says otherwise, give a mini-dissertation on astrology, or give them a "c'mon man!"
Bill... on one hand, you're not entirely wrong with how you approach it; but you're not entirely right either.
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Look at it this way: imagine you're someone that has doubts. That's fair, that's human. You come to a place like this, and you hear him putting "information" out there. And you see the response as a series of snarky, bring-nothing-to-the-table one-liners. Which are you going to spend the most time with? What's to investigate or dig into with "It's TUESDAY!"?
In this case, we asked for sources of the claim, and got none. Sometimes there is no place to calmly discuss merits of baseless claims. Someone comes in here and claims the Earth rotates the Sun. You gonna go dig up the scientific proof that says otherwise, give a mini-dissertation on astrology, or give them a "c'mon man!"
Bill... on one hand, you're not entirely wrong with how you approach it; but you're not entirely right either.
Yeah, I recognize where Bill is going logically, this specific situation just isn't the place to apply it.
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Again, though.... we're seemingly celebrating the one-line snide dismissal and somehow that's fine and moving the conversation along even though it brings nothing to the table and mocking the guy that at least is putting the debate out there, and to me that takes far more courage than snarky one-liners. I'm not suggesting that he's right, but that doesn't mean we should mock and dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Just as one example: We KNOW the media is a part of this. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/world/covid-coverage-by-the-us-national-media-is-an-outlier-a-study-finds.html) There are COUNTLESS other articles about this one-sided-ness of the media coverage as well if the NY Times isn't your "source". Whether Darkshade has the answers or not - I don't think he does - these are questions that benefit all of us from the asking.
There will be more Frank Hannons if we respond to people like Darkshade with civility, facts and information. There will be more people dying of regret and shitting on Nancy Pelosi's desk if we respond to people like Darkshade with snark, mockery and derision.
IMO.
This is a good post (about educating rather than mocking) and I want to expand upon the underlined. Bill, having written that and made it clear that you're ready to engage with Darkshade's ideas respectfully, I think that you probably 'have his ear' so to speak more than perhaps anyone here. So in order to avoid this thread becoming just another abstract "we need to end the division" go-around that we were talking about backstage, I want to suggest you do this: write a post directly (not indirectly) to Darkshade in this thread telling him what exactly about his ideas you think is not right. Imagine you and he are communicating one on one, the rest of us aren't here, and address him and his 'information' directly, using civility, facts and information. Since you (correctly) call for people to present arguments rather than mockery, and since you also suggested you think he's wrong, then I want to ask you to present the best argument you can against those ideas of his that you feel are either wrong or baseless. I want to see if it makes any difference to his views.
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Look at it this way: imagine you're someone that has doubts. That's fair, that's human. You come to a place like this, and you hear him putting "information" out there. And you see the response as a series of snarky, bring-nothing-to-the-table one-liners. Which are you going to spend the most time with? What's to investigate or dig into with "It's TUESDAY!"?
In this case, we asked for sources of the claim, and got none. Sometimes there is no place to calmly discuss merits of baseless claims. Someone comes in here and claims the Earth rotates the Sun. You gonna go dig up the scientific proof that says otherwise, give a mini-dissertation on astrology, or give them a "c'mon man!"
Bill... on one hand, you're not entirely wrong with how you approach it; but you're not entirely right either.
Yeah, I recognize where Bill is going logically, this specific situation just isn't the place to apply it.
I disagree, I think this is an ideal situation to apply it (because Bill is right, Darkshade is actually being respectful in his posts and is at least acknowledging what people post to him), and I want to see Bill show us a) how it's done, and b) how effective it is (that sounds like I'm taking the piss but I'm really not. I want Bill to show us how to do it. Not tell us; show us).
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I'd can't deny I'm curious to see how it'd actually play out, I just know from my personal experience with this individual, and individuals of a similar vein, that throwing logic at them is akin to throwing wet shit into a fan.
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I THINK - based on other conversations I've had with him - that Dave is being sincere and gracious with his request. But it comes of a shade as a challenge; "okay, big man smart aleck, show us how it's done". Which is not entirely unfair, since I've challenged the group. But I'm destined for failure for a number of reasons, the most important ones being:
- I'm not the expert; I said I THINK he's wrong, because that's true. But I'm not SURE he's wrong. I'm not as up on the research as many here. In a perfect world, this would be a team effort, each of us offering that information that we KNOW to be true;
- I have already said it's not JUST about Darkshade. If he doesn't change his mind, I've apparently failed, but we can't measure all the other people that MIGHT be reading this, that MIGHT be thinking "well, he has a point!" and then decide "nah, Stads and Lonestar and Jingle and Dave and Bart have given me a bunch of info that seems to tip the scales the other way."
- We can't measure the people here, lurking, that are on both sides of the fence that are also thinking "no fucking way am I posting in that thread; I'm not putting myself out there like that just so's some keyboard warrior can take shots at me because it's Tuesday!" I'm happy changing THOSE people, in the sense of making this a safe(r) space for them to post their ideas, but how do we know?
But I'll give it a whirl. It'll take a hot minute to assemble the research, but I'm game.
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Get em Bill...
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My issue with Darkshade is that he doesn't supply any sources. I mean, how can you take anything seriously with regards to his death numbers when there isn't a source for those numbers (even though he says from mulitple sources, but doesn't include the source I listed, so intead of 3 - 50k, its only his sources)? And if someone like myself lists a source, it's immediately considered bogus because "who watches the watchers??" I mean, that type of reasoning would mean any source in existence is bogus. So once again, why should anyone even bother responding seriously to him in this situation?
Also, VAERS is not a confirmed database. I'm pretty sure this is where the thousands of deaths come from (correct me if I'm wrong). Those numbers mean absolutely nothing at this point. And any article that references those deaths usually includes a blurb about the VAERS database being unconfirmed. The database is for people to put legit (and from the looks of it, a lot of people are messing around with it) deaths after vaccination so medical experts can see if there's any scientific reason to believe they are linked. This is to continue to track safety. We should all want this btw. So far, scientists have only shown a link between the blood clot deaths and the vaccines and those deaths are extremely low (link I referenced said 3, I thought there were more than that but not much more). The rest of these reports are unverified and I'd bet my house that when they eventually do look at these, 99.9% will not be related to the vaccines.
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Again, though.... we're seemingly celebrating the one-line snide dismissal and somehow that's fine and moving the conversation along even though it brings nothing to the table and mocking the guy that at least is putting the debate out there, and to me that takes far more courage than snarky one-liners. I'm not suggesting that he's right, but that doesn't mean we should mock and dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Just as one example: We KNOW the media is a part of this. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/world/covid-coverage-by-the-us-national-media-is-an-outlier-a-study-finds.html) There are COUNTLESS other articles about this one-sided-ness of the media coverage as well if the NY Times isn't your "source". Whether Darkshade has the answers or not - I don't think he does - these are questions that benefit all of us from the asking.
There will be more Frank Hannons if we respond to people like Darkshade with civility, facts and information. There will be more people dying of regret and shitting on Nancy Pelosi's desk if we respond to people like Darkshade with snark, mockery and derision.
IMO.
In my opinion, when someone goes that far off the reservation, logical discourse goes with them, and only mockery is left. I'm tired of giving any sense of legitimacy to such flagrantly wrong and downright dangerous rhetoric.
In unrelated news, the Vatican has instituted a vaccine mandate for its employees. Guess Catholics can toss there religious exemptions out the window.
And my arm pain is already gone, the only remaining side effect of the booster is a boost to my immune system.
You realize how much corruption is in the Catholic Church. You really think the followers actually listen to their Pope. Peoples distrust of their religious leaders is not high at all, and is likely as high as the government leaders. This stems from the fact they are undergoing some serious scandals regarding little boys. This is only the nail being hammered harder for their belief that the church has been corrupted by the devil.
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My issue with Darkshade is that he doesn't supply any sources. I mean, how can you take anything seriously with regards to his death numbers when there isn't a source for those numbers (even though he says from mulitple sources, but doesn't include the source I listed, so intead of 3 - 50k, its only his sources)? And if someone like myself lists a source, it's immediately considered bogus because "who watches the watchers??" I mean, that type of reasoning would mean any source in existence is bogus. So once again, why should anyone even bother responding seriously to him in this situation?
Also, VAERS is not a confirmed database. I'm pretty sure this is where the thousands of deaths come from (correct me if I'm wrong). Those numbers mean absolutely nothing at this point. And any article that references those deaths usually includes a blurb about the VAERS database being unconfirmed. The database is for people to put legit (and from the looks of it, a lot of people are messing around with it) deaths after vaccination so medical experts can see if there's any scientific reason to believe they are linked. This is to continue to track safety. We should all want this btw. So far, scientists have only shown a link between the blood clot deaths and the vaccines and those deaths are extremely low (link I referenced said 3, I thought there were more than that but not much more). The rest of these reports are unverified and I'd bet my house that when they eventually do look at these, 99.9% will not be related to the vaccines.
Yeah, VAERS is a reporting system, and what is reported is filtered through. As you said, anyone can report, and then they can take said reported information and weaponized it as they see fit. This has been a common tactic by antivaxxers since long before covid.
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Look at it this way: imagine you're someone that has doubts. That's fair, that's human. You come to a place like this, and you hear him putting "information" out there. And you see the response as a series of snarky, bring-nothing-to-the-table one-liners. Which are you going to spend the most time with? What's to investigate or dig into with "It's TUESDAY!"?
In this case, we asked for sources of the claim, and got none. Sometimes there is no place to calmly discuss merits of baseless claims. Someone comes in here and claims the Earth rotates the Sun. You gonna go dig up the scientific proof that says otherwise, give a mini-dissertation on astrology, or give them a "c'mon man!"
Bill... on one hand, you're not entirely wrong with how you approach it; but you're not entirely right either.
The masses did chastise Galileo because they thought he was wrong and that the facts are the sun revolves around the Earth...
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/galileo-is-accused-of-heresy
-
Again, though.... we're seemingly celebrating the one-line snide dismissal and somehow that's fine and moving the conversation along even though it brings nothing to the table and mocking the guy that at least is putting the debate out there, and to me that takes far more courage than snarky one-liners. I'm not suggesting that he's right, but that doesn't mean we should mock and dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Just as one example: We KNOW the media is a part of this. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/world/covid-coverage-by-the-us-national-media-is-an-outlier-a-study-finds.html) There are COUNTLESS other articles about this one-sided-ness of the media coverage as well if the NY Times isn't your "source". Whether Darkshade has the answers or not - I don't think he does - these are questions that benefit all of us from the asking.
There will be more Frank Hannons if we respond to people like Darkshade with civility, facts and information. There will be more people dying of regret and shitting on Nancy Pelosi's desk if we respond to people like Darkshade with snark, mockery and derision.
IMO.
In my opinion, when someone goes that far off the reservation, logical discourse goes with them, and only mockery is left. I'm tired of giving any sense of legitimacy to such flagrantly wrong and downright dangerous rhetoric.
In unrelated news, the Vatican has instituted a vaccine mandate for its employees. Guess Catholics can toss there religious exemptions out the window.
And my arm pain is already gone, the only remaining side effect of the booster is a boost to my immune system.
You realize how much corruption is in the Catholic Church. You really think the followers actually listen to their Pope. Peoples distrust of their religious leaders is not high at all, and is likely as high as the government leaders. This stems from the fact they are undergoing some serious scandals regarding little boys. This is only the nail being hammered harder for their belief that the church has been corrupted by the devil.
Oh, I totally get the corruption in the church, even my lifelong Irish Catholic parents have given up supporting them anymore. Their congregation will use the pope's words as they see fit. Gays bad? YAY!!!! Abortion a sin? YAY!!! We're diddling little boys and hiding it? Eh....ABORTION BAD!!!! Get vaccinated? Wait, why should we listen to a bunch of pedophiles.
-
Something I never see anyone talk about.
Any vaccine, as far as I know, gets tested for a lengthy amount of time, and once released and causes 50 deaths, is pulled from use and the authorization is recanted,
except this one.
Depending on where you look, the covid vax had caused somewhere between 16,000 and upwards of 50,000 deaths, in the US.
Still, this drug hasn't been pulled or scrutinized in any way. Why is that???
With all due respect, the reason you never see anyone talk about the COVID vaccine causing between 16,000 and 50,000+ deaths is because it isn't true.
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I don't trust any one source, these companies got the media outlets by the balls,
but the point is, no matter where you look, well more than 50 Americans died from taking the jab, but yet it's still available.
VAERS is a government website. If they aren't trustworthy, why should the FDA or CDC be trustworthy?
The FDA allowed poisonous ingredients to be put into foods and medicines for decades, they take profit from the companies that poison us.
The FDA approved Zantac, and millions of people got cancer from it over the last 15 or so years.
The FDA openly admitted that they knew there was a cancer causing ingredient in Zantac and they allowed it anyway because it was “only trace amounts of a cancer causing ingredient”.
I looked at the VAERS website. The numbers you're quoting don't match what I've seen there. The interface is sort of clunky, but I get just under 6,400 reported deaths from the COVID vaccines. Out of over 390 million administered doses. That is less than 0.0016%.
From the VAERS website: "VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable." This is a data-collection tool, and doesn't draw conclusions.
One thing I found is that the number is continuously vetted and each report is ground-truthed in time. I did a search for other vaccines as well; I was looking at Pediarix, a combo vaccine for young children. First search? 200 events reported. I did a subsequent search about an hour later and got 198. So 2 events were removed from the database, as they could not be confirmed or were shown to be false. So I ran the overall search again, and got 6,289 reported deaths from COVID vaccines. It went down over 100 in the space of an hour.
It's entirely possible that these are cases are being buried as you seem to claim; but why let the other 6,200 remain up there while the cover-up is enacted? Wouldn't it make more sense to bury them all at once? Or prevent the recording to begin with? The simple law of averages says that there are SOME that are not accurate; even if you're looking to make a point, humans make mistakes. But in the time that you looked and I looked, we went from 16,000 to 6,391, and in an hour after that, we're down to 6,289. Does human error account for a 60% drop in reported deaths?
Israel is well ahead of us in terms of vaccinations. They have a similar system to the VAERS system, and while they have a number of reported symptoms, like us, they do not have even one confirmed death directly attributable to the vaccine (https://www.gov.il/he/departments/news/21012021-02). Out of 15 million doses given. That's not mass media, that's from the Israeli government directly, with none of the vested interest in fudging the numbers that we have here in America, and without the negative influence of the mass media.
-
Again, though.... we're seemingly celebrating the one-line snide dismissal and somehow that's fine and moving the conversation along even though it brings nothing to the table and mocking the guy that at least is putting the debate out there, and to me that takes far more courage than snarky one-liners. I'm not suggesting that he's right, but that doesn't mean we should mock and dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Just as one example: We KNOW the media is a part of this. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/world/covid-coverage-by-the-us-national-media-is-an-outlier-a-study-finds.html) There are COUNTLESS other articles about this one-sided-ness of the media coverage as well if the NY Times isn't your "source". Whether Darkshade has the answers or not - I don't think he does - these are questions that benefit all of us from the asking.
There will be more Frank Hannons if we respond to people like Darkshade with civility, facts and information. There will be more people dying of regret and shitting on Nancy Pelosi's desk if we respond to people like Darkshade with snark, mockery and derision.
IMO.
In my opinion, when someone goes that far off the reservation, logical discourse goes with them, and only mockery is left. I'm tired of giving any sense of legitimacy to such flagrantly wrong and downright dangerous rhetoric.
In unrelated news, the Vatican has instituted a vaccine mandate for its employees. Guess Catholics can toss there religious exemptions out the window.
And my arm pain is already gone, the only remaining side effect of the booster is a boost to my immune system.
You realize how much corruption is in the Catholic Church. You really think the followers actually listen to their Pope. Peoples distrust of their religious leaders is not high at all, and is likely as high as the government leaders. This stems from the fact they are undergoing some serious scandals regarding little boys. This is only the nail being hammered harder for their belief that the church has been corrupted by the devil.
Oh, I totally get the corruption in the church, even my lifelong Irish Catholic parents have given up supporting them anymore. Their congregation will use the pope's words as they see fit. Gays bad? YAY!!!! Abortion a sin? YAY!!! We're diddling little boys and hiding it? Eh....ABORTION BAD!!!! Get vaccinated? Wait, why should we listen to a bunch of pedophiles.
The frequency of pedophilia in the Catholic Church is generally accepted to be no greater than that of the general population (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests).
-
Again, though.... we're seemingly celebrating the one-line snide dismissal and somehow that's fine and moving the conversation along even though it brings nothing to the table and mocking the guy that at least is putting the debate out there, and to me that takes far more courage than snarky one-liners. I'm not suggesting that he's right, but that doesn't mean we should mock and dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Just as one example: We KNOW the media is a part of this. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/world/covid-coverage-by-the-us-national-media-is-an-outlier-a-study-finds.html) There are COUNTLESS other articles about this one-sided-ness of the media coverage as well if the NY Times isn't your "source". Whether Darkshade has the answers or not - I don't think he does - these are questions that benefit all of us from the asking.
There will be more Frank Hannons if we respond to people like Darkshade with civility, facts and information. There will be more people dying of regret and shitting on Nancy Pelosi's desk if we respond to people like Darkshade with snark, mockery and derision.
IMO.
In my opinion, when someone goes that far off the reservation, logical discourse goes with them, and only mockery is left. I'm tired of giving any sense of legitimacy to such flagrantly wrong and downright dangerous rhetoric.
In unrelated news, the Vatican has instituted a vaccine mandate for its employees. Guess Catholics can toss there religious exemptions out the window.
And my arm pain is already gone, the only remaining side effect of the booster is a boost to my immune system.
You realize how much corruption is in the Catholic Church. You really think the followers actually listen to their Pope. Peoples distrust of their religious leaders is not high at all, and is likely as high as the government leaders. This stems from the fact they are undergoing some serious scandals regarding little boys. This is only the nail being hammered harder for their belief that the church has been corrupted by the devil.
Oh, I totally get the corruption in the church, even my lifelong Irish Catholic parents have given up supporting them anymore. Their congregation will use the pope's words as they see fit. Gays bad? YAY!!!! Abortion a sin? YAY!!! We're diddling little boys and hiding it? Eh....ABORTION BAD!!!! Get vaccinated? Wait, why should we listen to a bunch of pedophiles.
The frequency of pedophilia in the Catholic Church is generally accepted to be no greater than that of the general population (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests).
It's not the frequency, it's the fact that when confronted with the knowledge, they buried the fuck out of it. Some quality moral leadership there man. Of course we're venturing far outside the scope of this thread lol
-
Something I never see anyone talk about.
Any vaccine, as far as I know, gets tested for a lengthy amount of time, and once released and causes 50 deaths, is pulled from use and the authorization is recanted,
except this one.
Depending on where you look, the covid vax had caused somewhere between 16,000 and upwards of 50,000 deaths, in the US.
Still, this drug hasn't been pulled or scrutinized in any way. Why is that???
Both the bolded parts are false, which probably answers the question of why [almost] no one is talking about that. If you expect to be taken seriously (although that ship has likely sailed long ago), I suggest you don't set up questions with false premises.
-
Again, though.... we're seemingly celebrating the one-line snide dismissal and somehow that's fine and moving the conversation along even though it brings nothing to the table and mocking the guy that at least is putting the debate out there, and to me that takes far more courage than snarky one-liners. I'm not suggesting that he's right, but that doesn't mean we should mock and dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Just as one example: We KNOW the media is a part of this. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/world/covid-coverage-by-the-us-national-media-is-an-outlier-a-study-finds.html) There are COUNTLESS other articles about this one-sided-ness of the media coverage as well if the NY Times isn't your "source". Whether Darkshade has the answers or not - I don't think he does - these are questions that benefit all of us from the asking.
There will be more Frank Hannons if we respond to people like Darkshade with civility, facts and information. There will be more people dying of regret and shitting on Nancy Pelosi's desk if we respond to people like Darkshade with snark, mockery and derision.
IMO.
In my opinion, when someone goes that far off the reservation, logical discourse goes with them, and only mockery is left. I'm tired of giving any sense of legitimacy to such flagrantly wrong and downright dangerous rhetoric.
In unrelated news, the Vatican has instituted a vaccine mandate for its employees. Guess Catholics can toss there religious exemptions out the window.
And my arm pain is already gone, the only remaining side effect of the booster is a boost to my immune system.
You realize how much corruption is in the Catholic Church. You really think the followers actually listen to their Pope. Peoples distrust of their religious leaders is not high at all, and is likely as high as the government leaders. This stems from the fact they are undergoing some serious scandals regarding little boys. This is only the nail being hammered harder for their belief that the church has been corrupted by the devil.
Oh, I totally get the corruption in the church, even my lifelong Irish Catholic parents have given up supporting them anymore. Their congregation will use the pope's words as they see fit. Gays bad? YAY!!!! Abortion a sin? YAY!!! We're diddling little boys and hiding it? Eh....ABORTION BAD!!!! Get vaccinated? Wait, why should we listen to a bunch of pedophiles.
The frequency of pedophilia in the Catholic Church is generally accepted to be no greater than that of the general population (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests).
It's not the frequency, it's the fact that when confronted with the knowledge, they buried the fuck out of it. Some quality moral leadership there man. Of course we're venturing far outside the scope of this thread lol
Then you have that governor saying the vaccine is a gift from God. And I was waiting for the religious, "it's God rightous plan" to be used by some religious person.
Which this type of division led to the schism of the church. And this may very well lead to another one.
-
Again, though.... we're seemingly celebrating the one-line snide dismissal and somehow that's fine and moving the conversation along even though it brings nothing to the table and mocking the guy that at least is putting the debate out there, and to me that takes far more courage than snarky one-liners. I'm not suggesting that he's right, but that doesn't mean we should mock and dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Just as one example: We KNOW the media is a part of this. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/world/covid-coverage-by-the-us-national-media-is-an-outlier-a-study-finds.html) There are COUNTLESS other articles about this one-sided-ness of the media coverage as well if the NY Times isn't your "source". Whether Darkshade has the answers or not - I don't think he does - these are questions that benefit all of us from the asking.
There will be more Frank Hannons if we respond to people like Darkshade with civility, facts and information. There will be more people dying of regret and shitting on Nancy Pelosi's desk if we respond to people like Darkshade with snark, mockery and derision.
IMO.
In my opinion, when someone goes that far off the reservation, logical discourse goes with them, and only mockery is left. I'm tired of giving any sense of legitimacy to such flagrantly wrong and downright dangerous rhetoric.
In unrelated news, the Vatican has instituted a vaccine mandate for its employees. Guess Catholics can toss there religious exemptions out the window.
And my arm pain is already gone, the only remaining side effect of the booster is a boost to my immune system.
You realize how much corruption is in the Catholic Church. You really think the followers actually listen to their Pope. Peoples distrust of their religious leaders is not high at all, and is likely as high as the government leaders. This stems from the fact they are undergoing some serious scandals regarding little boys. This is only the nail being hammered harder for their belief that the church has been corrupted by the devil.
Oh, I totally get the corruption in the church, even my lifelong Irish Catholic parents have given up supporting them anymore. Their congregation will use the pope's words as they see fit. Gays bad? YAY!!!! Abortion a sin? YAY!!! We're diddling little boys and hiding it? Eh....ABORTION BAD!!!! Get vaccinated? Wait, why should we listen to a bunch of pedophiles.
The frequency of pedophilia in the Catholic Church is generally accepted to be no greater than that of the general population (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests).
It's not the frequency, it's the fact that when confronted with the knowledge, they buried the fuck out of it. Some quality moral leadership there man. Of course we're venturing far outside the scope of this thread lol
And there is the argument, of course, that they are figures of clear authority and so should be BETTER than the general population, but you're right.
-
Again, though.... we're seemingly celebrating the one-line snide dismissal and somehow that's fine and moving the conversation along even though it brings nothing to the table and mocking the guy that at least is putting the debate out there, and to me that takes far more courage than snarky one-liners. I'm not suggesting that he's right, but that doesn't mean we should mock and dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Just as one example: We KNOW the media is a part of this. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/world/covid-coverage-by-the-us-national-media-is-an-outlier-a-study-finds.html) There are COUNTLESS other articles about this one-sided-ness of the media coverage as well if the NY Times isn't your "source". Whether Darkshade has the answers or not - I don't think he does - these are questions that benefit all of us from the asking.
There will be more Frank Hannons if we respond to people like Darkshade with civility, facts and information. There will be more people dying of regret and shitting on Nancy Pelosi's desk if we respond to people like Darkshade with snark, mockery and derision.
IMO.
In my opinion, when someone goes that far off the reservation, logical discourse goes with them, and only mockery is left. I'm tired of giving any sense of legitimacy to such flagrantly wrong and downright dangerous rhetoric.
In unrelated news, the Vatican has instituted a vaccine mandate for its employees. Guess Catholics can toss there religious exemptions out the window.
And my arm pain is already gone, the only remaining side effect of the booster is a boost to my immune system.
You realize how much corruption is in the Catholic Church. You really think the followers actually listen to their Pope. Peoples distrust of their religious leaders is not high at all, and is likely as high as the government leaders. This stems from the fact they are undergoing some serious scandals regarding little boys. This is only the nail being hammered harder for their belief that the church has been corrupted by the devil.
Oh, I totally get the corruption in the church, even my lifelong Irish Catholic parents have given up supporting them anymore. Their congregation will use the pope's words as they see fit. Gays bad? YAY!!!! Abortion a sin? YAY!!! We're diddling little boys and hiding it? Eh....ABORTION BAD!!!! Get vaccinated? Wait, why should we listen to a bunch of pedophiles.
The frequency of pedophilia in the Catholic Church is generally accepted to be no greater than that of the general population (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests).
It's not the frequency, it's the fact that when confronted with the knowledge, they buried the fuck out of it. Some quality moral leadership there man. Of course we're venturing far outside the scope of this thread lol
And there is the argument, of course, that they are figures of clear authority and so should be BETTER than the general population, but you're right.
As the ones who dictate the moral standards for millions, yes, they should. :lol
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Look at it this way: imagine you're someone that has doubts. That's fair, that's human. You come to a place like this, and you hear him putting "information" out there. And you see the response as a series of snarky, bring-nothing-to-the-table one-liners. Which are you going to spend the most time with? What's to investigate or dig into with "It's TUESDAY!"?
In this case, we asked for sources of the claim, and got none. Sometimes there is no place to calmly discuss merits of baseless claims. Someone comes in here and claims the Earth rotates the Sun. You gonna go dig up the scientific proof that says otherwise, give a mini-dissertation on astrology, or give them a "c'mon man!"
Bill... on one hand, you're not entirely wrong with how you approach it; but you're not entirely right either.
C'mon Man! Everyone knows that the earth is a flat disk, the sun is a candle that Icarus runs across the sky, and the moon is a holographic projection designed by the elves that live on the MIT campus.
-
Again, though.... we're seemingly celebrating the one-line snide dismissal and somehow that's fine and moving the conversation along even though it brings nothing to the table and mocking the guy that at least is putting the debate out there, and to me that takes far more courage than snarky one-liners. I'm not suggesting that he's right, but that doesn't mean we should mock and dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Just as one example: We KNOW the media is a part of this. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/world/covid-coverage-by-the-us-national-media-is-an-outlier-a-study-finds.html) There are COUNTLESS other articles about this one-sided-ness of the media coverage as well if the NY Times isn't your "source". Whether Darkshade has the answers or not - I don't think he does - these are questions that benefit all of us from the asking.
There will be more Frank Hannons if we respond to people like Darkshade with civility, facts and information. There will be more people dying of regret and shitting on Nancy Pelosi's desk if we respond to people like Darkshade with snark, mockery and derision.
IMO.
In my opinion, when someone goes that far off the reservation, logical discourse goes with them, and only mockery is left. I'm tired of giving any sense of legitimacy to such flagrantly wrong and downright dangerous rhetoric.
In unrelated news, the Vatican has instituted a vaccine mandate for its employees. Guess Catholics can toss there religious exemptions out the window.
And my arm pain is already gone, the only remaining side effect of the booster is a boost to my immune system.
You realize how much corruption is in the Catholic Church. You really think the followers actually listen to their Pope. Peoples distrust of their religious leaders is not high at all, and is likely as high as the government leaders. This stems from the fact they are undergoing some serious scandals regarding little boys. This is only the nail being hammered harder for their belief that the church has been corrupted by the devil.
Oh, I totally get the corruption in the church, even my lifelong Irish Catholic parents have given up supporting them anymore. Their congregation will use the pope's words as they see fit. Gays bad? YAY!!!! Abortion a sin? YAY!!! We're diddling little boys and hiding it? Eh....ABORTION BAD!!!! Get vaccinated? Wait, why should we listen to a bunch of pedophiles.
The frequency of pedophilia in the Catholic Church is generally accepted to be no greater than that of the general population (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests).
It's not the frequency, it's the fact that when confronted with the knowledge, they buried the fuck out of it. Some quality moral leadership there man. Of course we're venturing far outside the scope of this thread lol
And there is the argument, of course, that they are figures of clear authority and so should be BETTER than the general population, but you're right.
As the ones who dictate the moral standards for millions, yes, they should. :lol
They should, but reality proves they are not. They're humans like everyone in this world, yet people treat them as if they're all knowing gods. And this reliance on them creates problems related to the whole. When each human is capable of learning and understanding the world, it makes me think that peoples true passions are in developing themselves not for the betterment of the world, but for their own interests and gains.
Which is what a lot of these supposed leaders are doing with the people by sacrificing personal individualistic ideology for the betterment of the whole, in their perception of what they consider is best for the world. While Ignoring and dismissing other perceptions of this world.
This knowing what is best, is a vast problem because no one really knows what is best until the action happens to produce the results that show us if it was for the best or not.
This is worsened by the division of the in and out crowd Stadler mentions.
Because I will say, with regards to the in and out crowd. The reason for the BLM riots and other protests are because the In crowd has been doing a lot of the name calling and belittling of the out crowd for centuries, and are still doing it. But that division line is getting thinner.
Just look at the NBA not mandating vaccines, and Nicki Minaj being against the vax, for that narrative of the anti-vax being racist, white republicans being thrown out the door.
-
Again, though.... we're seemingly celebrating the one-line snide dismissal and somehow that's fine and moving the conversation along even though it brings nothing to the table and mocking the guy that at least is putting the debate out there, and to me that takes far more courage than snarky one-liners. I'm not suggesting that he's right, but that doesn't mean we should mock and dismiss the whole kit and kaboodle. (Just as one example: We KNOW the media is a part of this. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/world/covid-coverage-by-the-us-national-media-is-an-outlier-a-study-finds.html) There are COUNTLESS other articles about this one-sided-ness of the media coverage as well if the NY Times isn't your "source". Whether Darkshade has the answers or not - I don't think he does - these are questions that benefit all of us from the asking.
There will be more Frank Hannons if we respond to people like Darkshade with civility, facts and information. There will be more people dying of regret and shitting on Nancy Pelosi's desk if we respond to people like Darkshade with snark, mockery and derision.
IMO.
In my opinion, when someone goes that far off the reservation, logical discourse goes with them, and only mockery is left. I'm tired of giving any sense of legitimacy to such flagrantly wrong and downright dangerous rhetoric.
In unrelated news, the Vatican has instituted a vaccine mandate for its employees. Guess Catholics can toss there religious exemptions out the window.
And my arm pain is already gone, the only remaining side effect of the booster is a boost to my immune system.
You realize how much corruption is in the Catholic Church. You really think the followers actually listen to their Pope. Peoples distrust of their religious leaders is not high at all, and is likely as high as the government leaders. This stems from the fact they are undergoing some serious scandals regarding little boys. This is only the nail being hammered harder for their belief that the church has been corrupted by the devil.
Oh, I totally get the corruption in the church, even my lifelong Irish Catholic parents have given up supporting them anymore. Their congregation will use the pope's words as they see fit. Gays bad? YAY!!!! Abortion a sin? YAY!!! We're diddling little boys and hiding it? Eh....ABORTION BAD!!!! Get vaccinated? Wait, why should we listen to a bunch of pedophiles.
The frequency of pedophilia in the Catholic Church is generally accepted to be no greater than that of the general population (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests).
It's not the frequency, it's the fact that when confronted with the knowledge, they buried the fuck out of it. Some quality moral leadership there man. Of course we're venturing far outside the scope of this thread lol
And there is the argument, of course, that they are figures of clear authority and so should be BETTER than the general population, but you're right.
As the ones who dictate the moral standards for millions, yes, they should. :lol
They should, but reality proves they are not. They're humans like everyone in this world, yet people treat them as if they're all knowing gods. And this reliance on them creates problems related to the whole. When each human is capable of learning and understanding the world, it makes me think that peoples true passions are in developing themselves not for the betterment of the world, but for their own interests and gains.
Which is what a lot of these supposed leaders are doing with the people by sacrificing personal individualistic ideology for the betterment of the whole, in their perception of what they consider is best for the world. While Ignoring and dismissing other perceptions of this world.
This knowing what is best, is a vast problem because no one really knows what is best until the action happens to produce the results that show us if it was for the best or not.
This is worsened by the division of the in and out crowd Stadler mentions.
Because I will say, with regards to the in and out crowd. The reason for the BLM riots and other protests are because the In crowd has been doing a lot of the name calling and belittling of the out crowd for centuries, and are still doing it. But that division line is getting thinner.
Just look at the NBA not mandating vaccines, and Nicki Minaj being against the vax, for that narrative of the anti-vax being racist, white republicans being thrown out the door.
In case anyone cares, Catholic priests (as opposed to Christian ministers) are human, but they are "not like the rest of us"; traditional Catholicism gives Priests the power of transubstantiation; they literally have the "power" to turn the bread and wine into the body and the blood. That's in part why priests don't marry, fornicate, and/or procreate. This is also, in case anyone cares, why I nominally remain with the Catholic Church even though there are denominations I more closely identify with; I don't trust lay people who put themselves in front of a congregation. TO ME, those are the people that profess to be "better".
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Just look at the NBA not mandating vaccines,
They don't really have to. 90% of the league is already vaxxed and the remaining 10% will either have to be or risk losing lots of money due to local covid rules. 2 big name players already risk missing half the season as they are not allowed to play on their home court due to local rules. The NBA has already mandated that unvaccinated players missing games due to local rules will not be paid. The NBA is relying on the $$$$$ incentive forcing the players hand.
EDIT: Also, this:
“A vaccine mandate for NBA players would need an agreement with the Players Association," said Bass. "The NBA has made these proposals, but the players’ union has rejected any vaccination requirement.”
So the NBA is doing everything but mandate. Threaten the money, and they most likely comply.
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NHL has more of a strict vaccine mandate and that's more of necessity since you got players coming in and out of Canada on a regular basis and they also have to comply with the Canadian providences' guidelines. They are just doing what is needed so that they can have fans in the arenas and complying with the rules given.
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They are just doing what is needed so that they can have fans in the arenas and complying with the rules given.
You can basically say this for any event. I don't think my local ballroom wants to check people's vaccine cards for the concert tonight, but it's what's needed so the tours can safely happen and everyone can stay in business as well as comply with local laws.
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They are just doing what is needed so that they can have fans in the arenas and complying with the rules given.
You can basically say this for any event. I don't think my local ballroom wants to check people's vaccine cards for the concert tonight, but it's what's needed so the tours can safely happen and everyone can stay in business as well as comply with local laws.
Yup. They're coerced into doing it. Meaning if there were no consequences that dealt with the business, they would not require mandates. What their concern is for is their profits and losses. And so, the wise choice in being dealt this type of ultimatum is to comply or risk dealing with profit losses, and being charged a fee for not complying. It's not for safety, although that is a great selling point for a businesses now as people would feel safer and visit a place that requires and is enforcing the mandates.
Same thing Obama did with Health Insurance, by punishing the people with their taxes if they didn't comply with the ultimatum of the required mandated health insurance for all plan.
I have noticed a difference in those who do care and those that do not and the customers reactions as well. It's interesting how that fear shows, and the business workers and owners notice it as well. They notice the difference in reaction of the customers, and the interaction of the entire environment of the business itself.
How I noticed what type of business feels what is based on the type of signs they have on their door about the mandate requirements. Some you can see do not care at all based on their wording and phrasing of the mask mandate or the vaccine requirements.
But these are not laws. They're orders that expire once the pandemic is not declared as an emergency. These orders have not went through the legislative process, which is how the Untied States of America operates.
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They are just doing what is needed so that they can have fans in the arenas and complying with the rules given.
You can basically say this for any event. I don't think my local ballroom wants to check people's vaccine cards for the concert tonight, but it's what's needed so the tours can safely happen and everyone can stay in business as well as comply with local laws.
Yup. They're coerced into doing it. Meaning if there were no consequences that dealt with the business, they would not require mandates. What their concern is for is their profits and losses. And so, the wise choice in being dealt this type of ultimatum is to comply or risk dealing with profit losses, and being charged a fee for not complying. It's not for safety, although that is a great selling point for a businesses now as people would feel safer and visit a place that requires and is enforcing the mandates.
I don't know how you get to the bolded. It is 100% about safety even if it may not be completely safe.
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Just look at the NBA not mandating vaccines,
They don't really have to. 90% of the league is already vaxxed and the remaining 10% will either have to be or risk losing lots of money due to local covid rules. 2 big name players already risk missing half the season as they are not allowed to play on their home court due to local rules. The NBA has already mandated that unvaccinated players missing games due to local rules will not be paid. The NBA is relying on the $$$$$ incentive forcing the players hand.
EDIT: Also, this:
“A vaccine mandate for NBA players would need an agreement with the Players Association," said Bass. "The NBA has made these proposals, but the players’ union has rejected any vaccination requirement.”
So the NBA is doing everything but mandate. Threaten the money, and they most likely comply.
This is raising up some hell here in SF with Wiggins holding out, since the mandate only applies to the Dubs. Visiting teams don't have to comply since they're considering touring performers.
:zeltar:
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They are just doing what is needed so that they can have fans in the arenas and complying with the rules given.
You can basically say this for any event. I don't think my local ballroom wants to check people's vaccine cards for the concert tonight, but it's what's needed so the tours can safely happen and everyone can stay in business as well as comply with local laws.
Yup. They're coerced into doing it. Meaning if there were no consequences that dealt with the business, they would not require mandates. What their concern is for is their profits and losses. And so, the wise choice in being dealt this type of ultimatum is to comply or risk dealing with profit losses, and being charged a fee for not complying. It's not for safety, although that is a great selling point for a businesses now as people would feel safer and visit a place that requires and is enforcing the mandates.
I don't know how you get to the bolded. It is 100% about safety even if it may not be completely safe.
I mean the intent of the some businesses is not about safety, and is more about the concern for losses, which would be devastating for some of these businesses. This is in regards to those claiming these businesses are so moral, and deserving of praise for doing what is considered doing the right thing. While shunning those businesses that are not complying as businesses that do not care, somehow holding them to some sort of moral standard, as if a business is required by law to have a HIGH moral standard.
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I don't think sports leagues/promoters/owners of buildings that holds massive gatherings for money are putting these mandates because of moral reasons. It's more of them trying to cover their butts in the event that someone catches COVID during their events. I think it's them saying, "We are making strides in doing what we can to hold these events so that people don't worry about catching COVID so that our butts don't go out of business one way or another." It's still a small step of progress. I guess.
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I don't think sports leagues/promoters/owners of buildings that holds massive gatherings for money are putting these mandates because of moral reasons. It's more of them trying to cover their butts in the event that someone catches COVID during their events. I think it's them saying, "We are making strides in doing what we can to hold these events so that people don't worry about catching COVID so that our butts don't go out of business one way or another." It's still a small step of progress. I guess.
In the case of the San Francisco teams, it's a city mandate they have to follow. It's tied to any indoor venue, the only wiggle room being given to the visiting performers.
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I feel like instances similar to this is why DT mention different mandates as a reason to postpone their tour. It's a web of rules to try and follow with all the local mandates.
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Just got ma Boostah!!!
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Just got ma Boostah!!!
Welcome to Club 3 :RJ:
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Just got ma Boostah!!!
Welcome to Club 3 :RJ:
Thank you! :TAC:
Dammit Bosk!!
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:lol
Also I was waiting for some New Englander to call it a boostah lol
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I feel like instances similar to this is why DT mention different mandates as a reason to postpone their tour. It's a web of rules to try and follow with all the local mandates.
We know what happened with Unleash The Archers, and at the show I went to, they mentioned that revenue was lost by all the bands, and especially for Aether Realm whom travelled "So far" to not play a show.
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I feel like instances similar to this is why DT mention different mandates as a reason to postpone their tour. It's a web of rules to try and follow with all the local mandates.
We know what happened with Unleash The Archers, and at the show I went to, they mentioned that revenue was lost by all the bands, and especially for Aether Realm whom travelled "So far" to not play a show.
That was due to the country (USA) having an issue with the band coming not just from Canada but from being in Belgium shortly before crossing the border from Canada. None the less, a new rule/regulation that adds to the complexity of figuring out how to successfully tour.
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:lol
Also I was waiting for some New Englander to call it a boostah lol
So I was at the dentist today, and I mentioned that my tooth was wicked tendah. I thought of this post and laughed right in the chair.
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:lol
Also I was waiting for some New Englander to call it a boostah lol
So I was at the dentist today, and I mentioned that my tooth was wicked tendah. I thought of this post and laughed right in the chair.
You know, I expected to hear mare yankee in Ba Haa Ba... but I only got one "ayah" the whole week. Did they see me comin and change the accent?
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Hah!
When we used to drive to Disney a lot, up and down the entire east coast, I'd go in some place and literally say one sentence and I'd get..you're from Boston aren't you? :lol
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Hah!
When we used to drive to Disney a lot, up and down the entire east coast, I'd go in some place and literally say one sentence and I'd get..you're from Boston aren't you? :lol
My dad grew up in Lynn, moved out here when he was 17. If you get enough scotch in him, the accent comes out thick
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Hah!
When we used to drive to Disney a lot, up and down the entire east coast, I'd go in some place and literally say one sentence and I'd get..you're from Boston aren't you? :lol
My dad grew up in Lynn, moved out here when he was 17. If you get enough scotch in him, the accent comes out thick
Nice! That must be funny. The accent...
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I don't have accent at all. ;D
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I don't have accent at all. ;D
Your phone would like a word with you.
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Whateva. Lol
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The Boston accent is pretty much my favorite. I lived with a guy - full Irish, too - from Acton during college, and it was pretty much every stereotype.
Second is the Scottish accent, third is the old school New York cab driver (think "Jerky Boys").
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I don't have accent at all. ;D
Wicked smaaht.
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The Boston accent is pretty much my favorite. I lived with a guy - full Irish, too - from Acton during college, and it was pretty much every stereotype.
Second is the Scottish accent, third is the old school New York cab driver (think "Jerky Boys").
It really is awesome. A chef I used to work for was from Southie, and his accent was a fucking work of art. :lol
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I've been sort of struggling with the notion that natural immunity isn't being considered with these new mandates in the states and yet in other countries it is taken into account. Then I happened on this today and thought it was interesting.
(https://i.imgur.com/ly9coE4.jpg)
Source, Dr. Eric Feigl-Ding, epidemiologist and health economist, Harvard
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I've been sort of struggling with the notion that natural immunity isn't being considered with these new mandates in the states and yet in other countries it is taken into account. Then I happened on this today and thought it was interesting.
(https://i.imgur.com/ly9coE4.jpg)
Source, Dr. Eric Feigl-Ding, epidemiologist and health economist, Harvard
Yeah, I've heard similar numbers elsewhere. It's a trip that we've gotten to a point where we can hack our body to be better than the tools evolution developed.
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It makes perfect sense to me that we're not considering natural immunity much. We've known since fall last year that reinfections happen, telling people they are exactly as safe as they would have been vaccinated would lead to deaths and problems.
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Our CEO has brought a few virologists/infectious disease experts to our company town hall's over the past year. The last one on explained the "immunity" gained from infection vs vaccination like this - infection (of any virus/disease) builds up anti-bodies which are potent ... but temporary; vaccine trains your immune system (memory B-cells/T-cells) to attack the infection. Antibodies are like the front line soldiers in a military force. They're great at what they do, but they don't stick around when there's no battles to fight. The memory cells are like The Reserves - they're always on hand, ready to jump to action whenever necessary.
Our blood can't keep anti-bodies for every disease/infection/virus it's ever seen... "it would turn to sludge" was the comment this doctor made.
So yeah... it's absolutely 100% natural (and the way our immune system is designed) for anti-bodies to be less effective (or non-existent) over time.
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I agree with that description of natural immunity. However, it stands to reason then that someone who has had Covid disease would definitely benefit from 1 dose of the vaccine and not need the 2nd - or just get the JnJ. That triggers the T and B cell response that those of us who have not had Covid gets from 2 (or 3) jabs.
I have not seen anything from mandates in the states that address this. Likely because it would take more time and effort for employers to verify previous disease. But supposedly they are taking the time to look into religious and medical exemptions so....
I also realize that many people assume they had Covid early on in the pandemic and never had any way to verify that. I just saw a relative yesterday who told me she had Covid in March of 2020 and I was thinking - how do you know that? Yes, you may have been quite ill, but they couldn't have possibly tested you at that time so it could've been the flu. Regardless, she got fully vaccinated and will get the booster too. But there are lots of people in this boat.
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I also realize that many people assume they had Covid early on in the pandemic and never had any way to verify that. I just saw a relative yesterday who told me she had Covid in March of 2020 and I was thinking - how do you know that? Yes, you may have been quite ill, but they couldn't have possibly tested you at that time so it could've been the flu. Regardless, she got fully vaccinated and will get the booster too. But there are lots of people in this boat.
We were talking about this last night, as a matter of fact. I don't, but there are those in my family that believe I had it in February. I get a lot of colds, but rarely get really sick; in February I was down for almost four days in a way that was very similar to my reaction to the first shot. The person I was talking to had heard that if you have a stronger reaction to the first dose it may be an indicator you had it before (I don't know if that's true and I'm not putting it out there as fact, only to explain why my family thinks like they do). I know someone here suspects they had it in.... I think it was January. Who knows?
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I also realize that many people assume they had Covid early on in the pandemic and never had any way to verify that. I just saw a relative yesterday who told me she had Covid in March of 2020 and I was thinking - how do you know that? Yes, you may have been quite ill, but they couldn't have possibly tested you at that time so it could've been the flu. Regardless, she got fully vaccinated and will get the booster too. But there are lots of people in this boat.
We were talking about this last night, as a matter of fact. I don't, but there are those in my family that believe I had it in February. I get a lot of colds, but rarely get really sick; in February I was down for almost four days in a way that was very similar to my reaction to the first shot. The person I was talking to had heard that if you have a stronger reaction to the first dose it may be an indicator you had it before (I don't know if that's true and I'm not putting it out there as fact, only to explain why my family thinks like they do). I know someone here suspects they had it in.... I think it was January. Who knows?
Who knows is right! I don't think you will ever know for sure especially now that you've been vaccinated. I might be wrong, but I don't think the antibody testing is sensitive enough to tease that out. In fact, I've heard antibody testing isn't all that reliable at all.
As for reactions to the vaccine, I've read and listened to may physicians talk about this subject. I don't think you having a reaction means you for sure had been exposed previously. It would make sense to me that you'd think that but I don't believe it pans out in the literature. I honestly believe there may be some genetic component to it. It is just my hypothesis but if you had a bad reaction, ask your genetically linked family members and see if they did too.
I had a very mild reaction and nobody I know of in my genetic line had much of a reaction either, FWIW. I'd love to hear from others here whether or not they reacted differently than their relatives to the vaccine. Test my hypothesis for me. ;)
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I had a very mild fever and aches with both shots and a bit of lethargy with my 2nd shot (recalling I had @# + Pfizer). Overall, pretty mild
Jingle.mom claims to have had virtually no reaction on both (Pfizer)
Jingle.kids were virtually nothing with 1st shot (Pfizer), but we’re both laid out the entire day after shot #2 (Moderna).
I don’t think I validate your hypothesis.
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I had a very mild fever and aches with both shots and a bit of lethargy with my 2nd shot (recalling I had @# + Pfizer). Overall, pretty mild
Jingle.mom claims to have had virtually no reaction on both (Pfizer)
Jingle.kids were virtually nothing with 1st shot (Pfizer), but we’re both laid out the entire day after shot #2 (Moderna).
I don’t think I validate your hypothesis.
Heh - I toss you out of my study because your kids got both Pfizer AND Moderna? Wow. That skews everything right there. :P :laugh:
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I had a very mild fever and aches with both shots and a bit of lethargy with my 2nd shot (recalling I had @# + Pfizer). Overall, pretty mild
Jingle.mom claims to have had virtually no reaction on both (Pfizer)
Jingle.kids were virtually nothing with 1st shot (Pfizer), but we’re both laid out the entire day after shot #2 (Moderna).
I don’t think I validate your hypothesis.
Heh - I toss you out of my study because your kids got both Pfizer AND Moderna? Wow. That skews everything right there. :P :laugh:
And let's hope Jingle isn't genetically related to Jingle.mom.......
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I also realize that many people assume they had Covid early on in the pandemic and never had any way to verify that. I just saw a relative yesterday who told me she had Covid in March of 2020 and I was thinking - how do you know that? Yes, you may have been quite ill, but they couldn't have possibly tested you at that time so it could've been the flu. Regardless, she got fully vaccinated and will get the booster too. But there are lots of people in this boat.
We were talking about this last night, as a matter of fact. I don't, but there are those in my family that believe I had it in February. I get a lot of colds, but rarely get really sick; in February I was down for almost four days in a way that was very similar to my reaction to the first shot. The person I was talking to had heard that if you have a stronger reaction to the first dose it may be an indicator you had it before (I don't know if that's true and I'm not putting it out there as fact, only to explain why my family thinks like they do). I know someone here suspects they had it in.... I think it was January. Who knows?
Who knows is right! I don't think you will ever know for sure especially now that you've been vaccinated. I might be wrong, but I don't think the antibody testing is sensitive enough to tease that out. In fact, I've heard antibody testing isn't all that reliable at all.
As for reactions to the vaccine, I've read and listened to may physicians talk about this subject. I don't think you having a reaction means you for sure had been exposed previously. It would make sense to me that you'd think that but I don't believe it pans out in the literature. I honestly believe there may be some genetic component to it. It is just my hypothesis but if you had a bad reaction, ask your genetically linked family members and see if they did too.
I had a very mild reaction and nobody I know of in my genetic line had much of a reaction either, FWIW. I'd love to hear from others here whether or not they reacted differently than their relatives to the vaccine. Test my hypothesis for me. ;)
No, I don't think I buy the "you had it you get a worse reaction"; that was actually my daughter-in-law. Though her husband, my step son, offered that he heard it had something to do with blood type (he's military; he hears some interesting things through the military, many are true, some... not so much). I haven't actually researched either, to be honest.
I very much buy the genetic hypothesis though. My parents had almost no reaction to either shot, nor did my daughter. I had almost none to the second. I'm the only one in the "sample size" to really have any reaction, and mine wasn't THAT bad, it was just "flu" body aches and chills for about eight hours and honestly I slept for most of it.
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I had a very mild fever and aches with both shots and a bit of lethargy with my 2nd shot (recalling I had @# + Pfizer). Overall, pretty mild
Jingle.mom claims to have had virtually no reaction on both (Pfizer)
Jingle.kids were virtually nothing with 1st shot (Pfizer), but we’re both laid out the entire day after shot #2 (Moderna).
I don’t think I validate your hypothesis.
Heh - I toss you out of my study because your kids got both Pfizer AND Moderna? Wow. That skews everything right there. :P :laugh:
And let's hope Jingle isn't genetically related to Jingle.mom.......
Well, *I’m* the “jingle” in all my family references, so, I am genetically related to jingle.mom. I’m married to Mrs.jingle. ;)
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I also realize that many people assume they had Covid early on in the pandemic and never had any way to verify that. I just saw a relative yesterday who told me she had Covid in March of 2020 and I was thinking - how do you know that? Yes, you may have been quite ill, but they couldn't have possibly tested you at that time so it could've been the flu. Regardless, she got fully vaccinated and will get the booster too. But there are lots of people in this boat.
We were talking about this last night, as a matter of fact. I don't, but there are those in my family that believe I had it in February. I get a lot of colds, but rarely get really sick; in February I was down for almost four days in a way that was very similar to my reaction to the first shot. The person I was talking to had heard that if you have a stronger reaction to the first dose it may be an indicator you had it before (I don't know if that's true and I'm not putting it out there as fact, only to explain why my family thinks like they do). I know someone here suspects they had it in.... I think it was January. Who knows?
Who knows is right! I don't think you will ever know for sure especially now that you've been vaccinated. I might be wrong, but I don't think the antibody testing is sensitive enough to tease that out. In fact, I've heard antibody testing isn't all that reliable at all.
As for reactions to the vaccine, I've read and listened to may physicians talk about this subject. I don't think you having a reaction means you for sure had been exposed previously. It would make sense to me that you'd think that but I don't believe it pans out in the literature. I honestly believe there may be some genetic component to it. It is just my hypothesis but if you had a bad reaction, ask your genetically linked family members and see if they did too.
I had a very mild reaction and nobody I know of in my genetic line had much of a reaction either, FWIW. I'd love to hear from others here whether or not they reacted differently than their relatives to the vaccine. Test my hypothesis for me. ;)
No, I don't think I buy the "you had it you get a worse reaction"; that was actually my daughter-in-law. Though her husband, my step son, offered that he heard it had something to do with blood type (he's military; he hears some interesting things through the military, many are true, some... not so much). I haven't actually researched either, to be honest.
I very much buy the genetic hypothesis though. My parents had almost no reaction to either shot, nor did my daughter. I had almost none to the second. I'm the only one in the "sample size" to really have any reaction, and mine wasn't THAT bad, it was just "flu" body aches and chills for about eight hours and honestly I slept for most of it.
You know, we also can't underestimate the placebo effect. If we are told to expect fatigue, muscle aches, headache then the chances we actually have those responses are more likely because of how suggestible we humans can be.
Also, it is more than likely that people have a modicum of stress/anxiety ABOUT the vaccine and thus post jab, having some extra fatigue and laying low for a day is probably also accounted for by the parasympathetic response our bodies go through. And yes, yes, I know our bodies are doing their immunity building thing too. And that goes along with symptoms. But I think it definitely could be both together.
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I had a very mild fever and aches with both shots and a bit of lethargy with my 2nd shot (recalling I had @# + Pfizer). Overall, pretty mild
Jingle.mom claims to have had virtually no reaction on both (Pfizer)
Jingle.kids were virtually nothing with 1st shot (Pfizer), but we’re both laid out the entire day after shot #2 (Moderna).
I don’t think I validate your hypothesis.
Heh - I toss you out of my study because your kids got both Pfizer AND Moderna? Wow. That skews everything right there. :P :laugh:
And let's hope Jingle isn't genetically related to Jingle.mom.......
Well, *I’m* the “jingle” in all my family references, so, I am genetically related to jingle.mom. I’m married to Mrs.jingle. ;)
HAHAHAHAHAHA, I was driving to pick up pizza last night and in the car I had a George Costanza moment of panic: "Maybe Jingle.mom is his MOM, and you're going to offend him!" I was actually going to text you except I was driving, then just got wrapped up in family when I got home and forgot about it.
I'm sorry; it was meant to be a joke about Mrs.Jingle, nothing more. :) :) :)
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I also realize that many people assume they had Covid early on in the pandemic and never had any way to verify that. I just saw a relative yesterday who told me she had Covid in March of 2020 and I was thinking - how do you know that? Yes, you may have been quite ill, but they couldn't have possibly tested you at that time so it could've been the flu. Regardless, she got fully vaccinated and will get the booster too. But there are lots of people in this boat.
We were talking about this last night, as a matter of fact. I don't, but there are those in my family that believe I had it in February. I get a lot of colds, but rarely get really sick; in February I was down for almost four days in a way that was very similar to my reaction to the first shot. The person I was talking to had heard that if you have a stronger reaction to the first dose it may be an indicator you had it before (I don't know if that's true and I'm not putting it out there as fact, only to explain why my family thinks like they do). I know someone here suspects they had it in.... I think it was January. Who knows?
Who knows is right! I don't think you will ever know for sure especially now that you've been vaccinated. I might be wrong, but I don't think the antibody testing is sensitive enough to tease that out. In fact, I've heard antibody testing isn't all that reliable at all.
As for reactions to the vaccine, I've read and listened to may physicians talk about this subject. I don't think you having a reaction means you for sure had been exposed previously. It would make sense to me that you'd think that but I don't believe it pans out in the literature. I honestly believe there may be some genetic component to it. It is just my hypothesis but if you had a bad reaction, ask your genetically linked family members and see if they did too.
I had a very mild reaction and nobody I know of in my genetic line had much of a reaction either, FWIW. I'd love to hear from others here whether or not they reacted differently than their relatives to the vaccine. Test my hypothesis for me. ;)
I've written in this thread before that I believe my wife and I had it in August 2019 and I know at least a half dozen people who had it in Sept. Oct. Nov. of 2019. I understand there is no way to really know but I do know that I felt REALLY horrible and had all of the symptoms except respiratory and after my second Moderna shot, I had those exact same symptoms. for a half day.
I do wish we would track these stories at the State level even with the understanding that there is no way to prove it was COVID.
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I had a very mild fever and aches with both shots and a bit of lethargy with my 2nd shot (recalling I had @# + Pfizer). Overall, pretty mild
Jingle.mom claims to have had virtually no reaction on both (Pfizer)
Jingle.kids were virtually nothing with 1st shot (Pfizer), but we’re both laid out the entire day after shot #2 (Moderna).
I don’t think I validate your hypothesis.
Heh - I toss you out of my study because your kids got both Pfizer AND Moderna? Wow. That skews everything right there. :P :laugh:
And let's hope Jingle isn't genetically related to Jingle.mom.......
Well, *I’m* the “jingle” in all my family references, so, I am genetically related to jingle.mom. I’m married to Mrs.jingle. ;)
HAHAHAHAHAHA, I was driving to pick up pizza last night and in the car I had a George Costanza moment of panic: "Maybe Jingle.mom is his MOM, and you're going to offend him!" I was actually going to text you except I was driving, then just got wrapped up in family when I got home and forgot about it.
I'm sorry; it was meant to be a joke about Mrs.Jingle, nothing more. :) :) :)
I got ya - no harm, no foul.
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I've written in this thread before that I believe my wife and I had it in August 2019 and I know at least a half dozen people who had it in Sept. Oct. Nov. of 2019. I understand there is no way to really know but I do know that I felt REALLY horrible and had all of the symptoms except respiratory and after my second Moderna shot, I had those exact same symptoms. for a half day.
I do wish we would track these stories at the State level even with the understanding that there is no way to prove it was COVID.
I'm not contradicting you, but I just can't wrap my head around this. How could it have been 'out' in August, and not spread the way that it did in Wuhan. I mean, the trajectory curve of the spread is just something that didn't happen anywhere. I can't fathom people having COVID in the summer/fall of 2019 (and it not being a 'thing'), but the pandemic starting in Wuhan and escalating the way it did.
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I've written in this thread before that I believe my wife and I had it in August 2019 and I know at least a half dozen people who had it in Sept. Oct. Nov. of 2019. I understand there is no way to really know but I do know that I felt REALLY horrible and had all of the symptoms except respiratory and after my second Moderna shot, I had those exact same symptoms. for a half day.
I do wish we would track these stories at the State level even with the understanding that there is no way to prove it was COVID.
I'm not contradicting you, but I just can't wrap my head around this. How could it have been 'out' in August, and not spread the way that it did in Wuhan. I mean, the trajectory curve of the spread is just something that didn't happen anywhere. I can't fathom people having COVID in the summer/fall of 2019 (and it not being a 'thing'), but the pandemic starting in Wuhan and escalating the way it did.
Well, let me tell you my thought process:
I work with with developers at the Dept. of Health who support the infectious diseases databases and their ears perked up around mid-Nov when we started getting reports in the news of a possible new virus in China. At the time, I had 2 thoughts, it's the holiday season and football season plus we have a global economy (air travel).
We all know what happened after tests became readily available. Cases skyrocketed but not necessarily because the virus was spreading out of control but also because the virus HAD already spun out of control.
As the pandemic evolved and more became known about the symptoms it got me to thinking about my own experience in August. We didn't go to the doctor but I know of several people who did and they tested negative for the flu but they/we had something. How come it didn't escalate back earlier in the summer? Maybe it did but people didn't know what was going on and we were not in cold/flu season yet (drier air and indoor activities.
We all know that China tried to cover this up but one question is how long had they tried to cover it up.
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I felt like I may have had covid in February 2020. I had gone to 9 concerts in and around NYC before the shutdown and I had a super nasty cold like illness for 2 straight weeks followed by a solid month of extreme fatigue. And my coworker who shares an office with me got super sick shortly after I did, he got sick even worse with bad flu like symptoms for almost a full month. Regardless, I got vaxxed. I'll never know if I had covid so got to play it safe. If I did get covid, and got vaxxed, then my protection is likely pretty strong. Maybe that explains how I could have gone to 21 concerts the last three months and not have gotten sick. Or maybe my immune system is fairly strong. Who knows really.
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^
There were a few on this board (myself included) who talked about perhaps having 'Covid 18'. Very similar symptoms to what you described. December 18th 2019 until around January 10th. Slept 15-20 hours a day, occasional sweats, very light chills, and severe chest congestion (but no coughing or sneezing). I never did lose my appetite or sense of taste or smell. Never had anything like it in all my years. And, thanks to masks, not even a sniffle or cough since :tup
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^
There were a few on this board (myself included) who talked about perhaps having 'Covid 18'. Very similar symptoms to what you described. December 18th 2019 until around January 10th. Slept 15-20 hours a day, occasional sweats, very light chills, and severe chest congestion (but no coughing or sneezing). I never did lose my appetite or sense of taste or smell. Never had anything like it in all my years. And, thanks to masks, not even a sniffle or cough since :tup
Yeah, thanks to seasonal allergies, I was not able to escape sniffles and coughs, even with maskage. Only difference is now with being triple vaxxed, I don't have to panic for my life everytime the allergies kick in (which is a lot)
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Everyone who hasn't gotten sick during one of the waves is so lucky. When I had my first bout of fever + dry cough in the spring, I had WHERE'S THE LIGHTS! TURN EM ON AGAIN! ONE MORE NIGHT! TO BELIEVE AND THEN! ANOTHER NOOOOTE FOR MY REQUIEM!! looping in my head until the negative test came back :lol
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Just had a very sobering encounter...
Our building engineer came in for his meal, and asked me if I had any personal experience with covid, I said though I knew a few that got sick, I didn't know anyone who took it further. He goes on to say his grandma passed over the weekend from it. She started feeling sick about a week and a half ago, and on Wed he took her to the ER for difficult breathing, not knowing that was going to be the last time he'd speak to her. they did a test for covid, and took her to the ICU. She went down quickly, and within a day they moved her to a normal bed for comfort care. She died two days later. She was 90.
The sobering part? She wasn't vaxxed. Against his and her doctor's wishes, the rest of the family decided she was too old for the shot, and were wary of it doing more harm than good, even though the doctor pleaded with them otherwise. He's so angry with his family, that this didn't have to happen even though she led a full and good life.
When he said this didn't have to happen, it cut me deep.
This didn't have to happen. These people don't have to die. It's all so frustrating.
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Just had a very sobering encounter...
Our building engineer came in for his meal, and asked me if I had any personal experience with covid, I said though I knew a few that got sick, I didn't know anyone who took it further. He goes on to say his grandma passed over the weekend from it. She started feeling sick about a week and a half ago, and on Wed he took her to the ER for difficult breathing, not knowing that was going to be the last time he'd speak to her. they did a test for covid, and took her to the ICU. She went down quickly, and within a day they moved her to a normal bed for comfort care. She died two days later. She was 90.
The sobering part? She wasn't vaxxed. Against his and her doctor's wishes, the rest of the family decided she was too old for the shot, and were wary of it doing more harm than good, even though the doctor pleaded with them otherwise. He's so angry with his family, that this didn't have to happen even though she led a full and good life.
When he said this didn't have to happen, it cut me deep.
This didn't have to happen. These people don't have to die. It's all so frustrating.
Who's decision is it up to...The Elderly Loved one who's lived a long life and is deserving of rest. Or the family who is preventing the loved one from this choice.
This is personal and honestly, I wouldn't even be blaming grandma at all. She's old, she's lived this life. If this is how she wanted to go by knowing the risks, then who is to deny her that?
Is it better to force someone to keep on living against their will when they have lived a long life?
She's old too, and old people are fragile that any sickness could do them in. My grandma fell, and then got Pneumonia, the doctors said she was doing better, yet she went that same night.
I have condolences with regards to losing a loved one.
The discussion at hand though is on how people do not perceive death the same. It's why I view Covid as very, very personal. Because everyone's reason to live is different based on their perceptions of reality.
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Ben, you need to re read what RJ said about who chose not to get her the vaccine. That is neglect. You can make that decision for yourself but for your elderly mother, who's doctor suggested to get the vaccine and especially that we know it affects the elderly harder.
The family was neglectful for not allowing their mother to get vaxed.
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Yeah, no offense Ben but fuck all that. Each and every one of my friends' parents is on some "I have lived past 60, therefore I am impervious to danger, and if I die tomorrow, so what, it only goes down from here so might as well die whenever"-shit and it drives me nuts. They were already avoiding going to the doctor, now with this Covid thing they're refusing to take care and get vaccinated. That's crap. Dying even one day too soon is crap on your family. No one who knows anything about the fragility of health, life and death will say gambling with fate past a certain age is acceptable, yet I've had to tell this to people who are twice my age and should know better ::) Going a step further and making that decision for someone else based on misinformation and badly judged risks is double sucky.
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Yeah, no offense Ben but fuck all that.
:lol
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Ben... I saw your response before my commute, and I've been stewing over it for the time since. Pretty much all my initial responses would've gotten me banned, I was that upset at your casual and flippant attitude towards this. Personally I thought it was just a fucked response from you.
First, she was still in excellent health, lived on her own, did her own shopping, etc. She was loved. And she didn't want to die. She was given bad advice, of which there is plenty,and that led directly to her death.
Im not sure what to make of your response, I'm drawn to the scene from Good Will Hunting where Robin Williams character talks to Damon's character about his life. How his intellectual nature, and his lack of actual life experience, don't give him every right to tear into someone else so casually. Your response echoed a lot of this. You talk about spirituality a lot here, yet I'm not sure you have a good grasp of what it means to be spirituality connected to others, especially if your able to give such a detached and cold response to what for me was a very emotional situation.
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Im not sure what to make of your response, I'm drawn to the scene from Good Will Hunting where Robin Williams character talks to Damon's character about his life. How his intellectual nature, and his lack of actual life experience, don't give him every right to tear into someone else so casually. Your response echoed a lot of this. You talk about spirituality a lot here, yet I'm not sure you have a good grasp of what it means to be spirituality connected to others, especially if your able to give such a detached and cold response to what for me was a very emotional situation.
Top 5 movie soliloquy of all time. Maybe Top 2 for me (I'm always partial to Christopher Walken in Pulp Fiction).
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rOwMJSs-uko/VV5HAUnLXRI/AAAAAAAADGo/W0pf81o4Wfk/s1600/Your%2BMove.gif)
Once again, I'm reminded why I skip by some users posts. I think RJ summed it up terrifically... the amount of callousness in that post above is staggering - frankly, in a lot of posts... especially from someone who tries to present their views as so "woke'.
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I have seen Good Will Hunting, but I honestly don't remember any of it. I find Robin Williams terribly hard to follow.
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I have seen Good Will Hunting, but I honestly don't remember any of it. I find Robin Williams terribly hard to follow.
Here's the scene... https://youtu.be/6vXbUPnWA1U (https://youtu.be/6vXbUPnWA1U)
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I have seen Good Will Hunting, but I honestly don't remember any of it. I find Robin Williams terribly hard to follow.
Tim, are you sure your family isn't dopping you every night?
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Goddamn I wanna watch that whole movie now.
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I have seen Good Will Hunting, but I honestly don't remember any of it. I find Robin Williams terribly hard to follow.
Tim, are you sure your family isn't dopping you every night?
:lol
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Like Seinfeld's girlfriend so they could play with her vintage toys.
Tim still won't get this.
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Ben, you need to re read what RJ said about who chose not to get her the vaccine. That is neglect. You can make that decision for yourself but for your elderly mother, who's doctor suggested to get the vaccine and especially that we know it affects the elderly harder.
The family was neglectful for not allowing their mother to get vaxed.
First, she was still in excellent health, lived on her own, did her own shopping, etc. She was loved. And she didn't want to die. She was given bad advice, of which there is plenty,and that led directly to her death.
I understand how it came across as an ill intent. But it is not.
I re-read it, and I understand what is meant here in the bolded.
I thought this is the reason for why there is a Power of Attorney, for when a person becomes unable to make medical decisions for themselves. And for when there are signs of neglect of an elderly person unable to care for themselves.
My main and only point of discussion is about the topic of death and only in how people perceive the topic of death differently. It's a topic that should be discussed with loved ones, for those "just in case" times because life is not planned and accidents can happen. Bad advice can be given and lead to death. Someone could ask, "How do I get to this place on the map?" and you reply, "You take this trail, then head down this cliff and then around the lake into the valley." They follow the advice and fall off the cliff, was it bad advice? Another person could very well tell the same person, "Just go around the cliff, it's a little longer, but it's not that dangerous as that trail is quite steep and slippery." That person did not have to die because they got bad advice from a stranger, and it depends on just asking the right person.
This is only in response to the general statement of "These people didn't have to die".
I can still feel sympathy for people who do die, and still want to have a discussion about a topic. Even if that topic is pretty heart-felt and can become a sort of taboo topic for some. If I offend anyone, I apologize. But, I have seen and experienced death with a lot of loved ones and people within my tribal community, various reasons for death. So my perception of death is not the same as most and it's something I am interested in. Especially in these times where a vast amount of people perish, for whatever reason that may be. Mainly in the thought of how people will react to that moment, like if a volcano were to erupt and bury an entire city in lava. How would one be prepared to handle such a situation?
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Maybe your response should be "I'm sorry RJ."
Then broach the subject down the road Ben. Some posts are not about a discussion.
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A couple that have been best friends of my wife for over 30 years (I've been with her 21) are vaxxed, and finally able to travel 'safely'. After having many events postponed/cancelled over the past two years, they travelled to watch the Ravens play in Detroit and then on to Denver for the game against the Broncos. They got the thrill of witnessing Justin Tucker's record setting FG. They did some site seeing in Michigan before and after the game, and arrived in Denver last Thursday.
They were admitted into a hospital there with Covid on Saturday. The husband is to be released tomorrow (?), the wife not until Saturday or later. Both on oxygen, and they'll have to do so for weeks after release. They have nearby (same time zone) family that will assist in all the sundry tasks to take care of (hotel, rental car, etc).
They might have contacted it at the airport or on the plane. It sounds as if they had it when they went to the Lions-Ravens indoor game. (please keep that in mind regarding any event).
At least they are alive, and though recovery will take time, they have a future.
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A couple that have been best friends of my wife for over 30 years (I've been with her 21) are vaxxed, and finally able to travel 'safely'. After having many events postponed/cancelled over the past two years, they travelled to watch the Ravens play in Detroit and then on to Denver for the game against the Broncos. They got the thrill of witnessing Justin Tucker's record setting FG. They did some site seeing in Michigan before and after the game, and arrived in Denver last Thursday.
They were admitted into a hospital there with Covid on Saturday. The husband is to be released tomorrow (?), the wife not until Saturday or later. Both on oxygen, and they'll have to do so for weeks after release. They have nearby (same time zone) family that will assist in all the sundry tasks to take care of (hotel, rental car, etc).
They might have contacted it at the airport or on the plane. It sounds as if they had it when they went to the Lions-Ravens indoor game. (please keep that in mind regarding any event).
At least they are alive, and though recovery will take time, they have a future.
Scary man... As much as I itch to get back to a show, stories like this keep me from pulling the trigger. Hope they recover well.
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I have seen Good Will Hunting, but I honestly don't remember any of it. I find Robin Williams terribly hard to follow.
Tim, are you sure your family isn't dopping you every night?
WTF is is that? Pretty sure I've never been dopped! :lol
Like Seinfeld's girlfriend so they could play with her vintage toys.
Tim still won't get this.
Nope. Not a clue. :lol
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A couple that have been best friends of my wife for over 30 years (I've been with her 21) are vaxxed, and finally able to travel 'safely'. After having many events postponed/cancelled over the past two years, they travelled to watch the Ravens play in Detroit and then on to Denver for the game against the Broncos. They got the thrill of witnessing Justin Tucker's record setting FG. They did some site seeing in Michigan before and after the game, and arrived in Denver last Thursday.
They were admitted into a hospital there with Covid on Saturday. The husband is to be released tomorrow (?), the wife not until Saturday or later. Both on oxygen, and they'll have to do so for weeks after release. They have nearby (same time zone) family that will assist in all the sundry tasks to take care of (hotel, rental car, etc).
They might have contacted it at the airport or on the plane. It sounds as if they had it when they went to the Lions-Ravens indoor game. (please keep that in mind regarding any event).
At least they are alive, and though recovery will take time, they have a future.
Scary man... As much as I itch to get back to a show, stories like this keep me from pulling the trigger. Hope they recover well.
Yeah this. I've not been a nervous nellie throughout all of this, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about the DT show that was scheduled this November. My son was going with me, and I would've never forgiven myself if anything happened to him.
Damn, Joe, everytime you post in this thread, you have bad news about someone you know. I'm very sorry to hear that.
Tell you what...until this is over, let's pretend we don't know each other.. :lol
I'm joking obviously.
The brother in law of a woman my wife works with just passed away at the ripe old age of 57. He and his wife were anti vaxxers.
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Tim. Doped. Lol
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Maybe your response should be "I'm sorry RJ."
Then broach the subject down the road Ben. Some posts are not about a discussion.
Well, this exactly.
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The sobering part? She wasn't vaxxed. Against his and her doctor's wishes, the rest of the family decided she was too old for the shot, and were wary of it doing more harm than good, even though the doctor pleaded with them otherwise. He's so angry with his family, that this didn't have to happen even though she led a full and good life.
This happened in my wife's family. Her dad is 70 and has Crohn's. His body is so wrecked from bouts with that illness. In addition, a severe allergic reaction to penicillin about 20 years ago damaged his kidneys pretty badly. If he gets covid, he dies. Period.
He was so antsy to get the vaccine and my wife fought hard to get him an appointment back in March, when it was just becoming available for high-risk and the elderly.
His two Republican sisters called him the day before his appointment and told him not to get vaccinated because it's "such a new vaccine and it hasn't been tested enough on elderly patients." We were absolutely furious, especially because my wife spent DAYS on her phone trying to book him an appointment. They know his health conditions inside and out, yet they put their political beliefs ahead of their own brother's best interests. Thankfully, he didn't listen to them.
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The sobering part? She wasn't vaxxed. Against his and her doctor's wishes, the rest of the family decided she was too old for the shot, and were wary of it doing more harm than good, even though the doctor pleaded with them otherwise. He's so angry with his family, that this didn't have to happen even though she led a full and good life.
This happened in my wife's family. Her dad is 70 and has Crohn's. His body is so wrecked from bouts with that illness. In addition, a severe allergic reaction to penicillin about 20 years ago damaged his kidneys pretty badly. If he gets covid, he dies. Period.
He was so antsy to get the vaccine and my wife fought hard to get him an appointment back in March, when it was just becoming available for high-risk and the elderly.
His two Republican sisters called him the day before his appointment and told him not to get vaccinated because it's "such a new vaccine and it hasn't been tested enough on elderly patients." We were absolutely furious, especially because my wife spent DAYS on her phone trying to book him an appointment. They know his health conditions inside and out, yet they put their political beliefs ahead of their own brother's best interests. Thankfully, he didn't listen to them.
I would've told them. It's his body, not yours. It's his health, not yours. It's his decision, not yours. Just as everything else in life that requires consent.
Just as people shouldn't be coercing you into making a health decision for you. So should you also not be coercing others to make a health decision for them.
Is that not a part of owning your own body. Is this the basis for owning a slave, owning a person and making decisions for them because it's in your best interests?
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My dad can't pick something from a menu because it's overwhelming now. So I help him out. So he's not able to process if he should take the vaccine Ben, we have to help him in that decision. How do you not understand that with the eldery?
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My dad can't pick something from a menu because it's overwhelming now. So I help him out. So he's not able to process if he should take the vaccine Ben, we have to help him in that decision. How do you not understand that with the eldery?
I just can't anymore dude. Probably thinks a two year old should be asked whether to get his polio and measles shots as well.
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The ignore feature has been fantastic. Just sayin.
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The ignorance of the common, average person continues to amaze me. We've had the pandemic for 2 years now, but we've got people in the area where I live calling in "Covic" and "Cova". For real. Sorry to derail the topic but this seemed the best place to post that ridiculous tidbit.
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The ignorance of the common, average person continues to amaze me. We've had the pandemic for 2 years now, but we've got people in the area where I live calling in "Covic" and "Cova". For real. Sorry to derail the topic but this seemed the best place to post that ridiculous tidbit.
My good friend is a pediatrician. The daily stories of parents coming in and having such little knowledge about covid is so shocking at this point.
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The ignore feature has been fantastic. Just sayin.
C'mon man, Stadler isn't that bad...
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The ignore feature has been fantastic. Just sayin.
C'mon man, Stadler isn't that bad...
Who?
:neverusethis:
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:lol
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The ignore feature has been fantastic. Just sayin.
C'mon man, Stadler isn't that bad...
Who?
:neverusethis:
Surely you can't be serious?
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The ignore feature has been fantastic. Just sayin.
C'mon man, Stadler isn't that bad...
Who?
:neverusethis:
Surely you can't be serious?
Of course I’m not serious.
And don’t call me Shirley.
I have one person on my block list and it isn’t, hasn’t been, and won’t be Stadler. He’s my bro.
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You make my heart swoon getting that line. I know you understand that there needs to be levity with coronavirus. Ben also needs to understand not every post on this thread is a debate. Some need to vent, some need to talk about their pain and some do need to talk about the political aspects as well. You just need to understand where the other person is going with their post.
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You make my heart swoon getting that line. I know you understand that there needs to be levity with coronavirus. Ben also needs to understand not every post on this thread is a debate. Some need to vent, some need to talk about their pain and some do need to talk about the political aspects as well. You just need to understand where the other person is going with their post.
Aight. I'll take all these types of discussions into the Political and Religious thread and leave this as the vent and grief thread. I recognize such a thread needs to exist as well. I am very sorry for the way I was posting and will not post here again.
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Ben you can post here. No one is saying otherwise. You just need to see when a person is venting, or isn't up for a debate. That's all.
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The ignore feature has been fantastic. Just sayin.
Wait, what? This forum does have one of those? Where can I find it?
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The ignore feature has been fantastic. Just sayin.
Wait, what? This forum does have one of those? Where can I find it?
If you click "profile" at the top, then hover over "modify profile" there is a block list option.
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Ahhh, found it. Thank you.
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I wrote....
At least they are alive, and though recovery will take time, they have a future.
Scary man... As much as I itch to get back to a show, stories like this keep me from pulling the trigger. Hope they recover well.
[/quote]
Yeah this. I've not been a nervous nellie throughout all of this, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about the DT show that was scheduled this November. My son was going with me, and I would've never forgiven myself if anything happened to him.
Damn, Joe, everytime you post in this thread, you have bad news about someone you know. I'm very sorry to hear that.
Tell you what...until this is over, let's pretend we don't know each other.. :lol
I'm joking obviously.
The brother in law of a woman my wife works with just passed away at the ripe old age of 57. He and his wife were anti vaxxers.
[/quote]
Being a Debbie Downer is wearing, isn't it? ;)
The good news is that both should be released Saturday or Sunday. Here's something 'different': they have to pay $1600 each for the oxygen out of pocket. If they do not, and they have to wait for insurance to pay for the oxygen, that takes an additional two weeks, so they would have to both stay in the hospital. An aspect that I hadn't heard of, and do not know if has been mentioned in this long thread. The husband works for Northrop-Grumman, so their coverage should be pretty top notch.
The teenager I mentioned weeks ago that was intubated is home and progressing slowly day by day. We flew to Minneapolis three weeks ago to see one of our twin nieces (a twin in the Twin Cities :D). My wife and I each had N95 masks for the flight, wore them indoors, etc. Her twin sister, who I had mentioned eons ago that had contacted Covid 2x last year, well, she is now vaxxed and...... got it again last month! But, it was 'only' a couple of horrible days and nothing like the first time. So that is good news, right? :tup
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The sobering part? She wasn't vaxxed. Against his and her doctor's wishes, the rest of the family decided she was too old for the shot, and were wary of it doing more harm than good, even though the doctor pleaded with them otherwise. He's so angry with his family, that this didn't have to happen even though she led a full and good life.
This happened in my wife's family. Her dad is 70 and has Crohn's. His body is so wrecked from bouts with that illness. In addition, a severe allergic reaction to penicillin about 20 years ago damaged his kidneys pretty badly. If he gets covid, he dies. Period.
He was so antsy to get the vaccine and my wife fought hard to get him an appointment back in March, when it was just becoming available for high-risk and the elderly.
His two Republican sisters called him the day before his appointment and told him not to get vaccinated because it's "such a new vaccine and it hasn't been tested enough on elderly patients." We were absolutely furious, especially because my wife spent DAYS on her phone trying to book him an appointment. They know his health conditions inside and out, yet they put their political beliefs ahead of their own brother's best interests. Thankfully, he didn't listen to them.
Late to the party here, as I was traveling a bit (yes, got tested immediately on my return, at the airport, and will get tested again probably Monday or Tuesday to be safe). First and foremost, RJ, Grappler, sorry for the trauma your friends/families are enduring. Should go without saying, but needs to be said nonetheless.
But it shouldn't be both ways. Ben took a beating for responding in a way that didn't put aside any objective concerns (despite having elements of truth in his response), and was lectured for being insensitive, but it seems all the "vents" themselves take free liberty to make points (some political) and draw conclusion (some subjective) free of reproach. "Isn't properly tested on the elderly" is not a political statement, it's a misstatement of scientific fact. Yet, we're free to point fingers at the REPUBLICANS because, well, why not, they're deplorable and everyone grieves differently?
The FACT is, despite the inflammatory articles and headlines that are catnip for the partisan, there's only a 10% gap in vaccination rates between Republicans and Democrats when looked at on a county-by-county basis (https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/the-red-blue-divide-in-covid-19-vaccination-rates/).
I can empathize, though, since I'm in the exact same boat; I have an 84-year-old mom with dementia, and an 82-year-old immuno-compromised father who is her sole caregiver. I have power of attorney over both of them; maybe it's my law training, maybe it's something else, but I make decisions as best I can and try to do so through THEIR eyes, not mine own, but it's never easy. DAD made the decision for the vaccines, based almost solely on his discussions with his and her doctors. He's no pushover, but he has a deep and abiding faith in the medical community, despite being a Republican, and despite watching more Sean Hannity than I can tolerate (which is to say, none). A lifetime of dealing with significant health issues will give you that confidence in their expertise, I guess; small favors! :) I'm not going to lie: I'm REALLY glad I didn't have to make that decision for them (though once they decided, I did all the planning and scheduling).
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Ben took guff for wanting a discussion where the other participant did not want to debate. there has to be a recognition to just not respond to someone not looking to debate.
There's a big difference. I tried to say that without stepping over the line myself. When talking about loss from coronavirus, no one should debate that.
Edit, where did you go Stads? I'm traveling to Dallas next week.
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Some moments in life, some moments shared should be immune from objective discussions, especially cold and logical ones. Part of growing up is learning how to discern them.
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How I read the above series of posts is that I think the main problem is Ben and RJ were just talking past each other. RJ set the tone in his post that what he was looking for was sympathy for a tragic situation. Ben didn't pick up on the cue, and went to a discussion more about the "choice" aspect of it and how his culture does not necessarily look upon that type of death as tragic, which missed the mark and poured salt in the wound of what RJ was doing. I think he just didn't "get" where RJ was coming from, and hence, didn't understand why his post missed the mark and upset RJ (and potentially others). I think it's as simple as that. Doesn't mean he is a bad person, or is insensitive, or that he should be vilified the way he was. Sometimes, people just miss the mark. I think a bit more understanding and forgiveness on both sides would go a long way. But I guess that's between y'all, so I'll but out now that I've offered my two cents.
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Some moments in life, some moments shared should be immune from objective discussions, especially cold and logical ones. Part of growing up is learning how to discern them.
AND
Ben took guff for wanting a discussion where the other participant did not want to debate. there has to be a recognition to just not respond to someone not looking to debate.
There's a big difference. I tried to say that without stepping over the line myself. When talking about loss from coronavirus, no one should debate that.
There's no fundamental disagreement here in principle. I hear you and mostly agree. I'm only saying that it takes compassion and understanding from ALL of us when the emotions are so heavily tied to the non-emotional aspect of things. I try to be exceedingly sensitive when the emotion is sadness from losing a loved one, or regret from what could have been. (My only reply to Lonestar's post was my sympathy for the loss). I think - and I'm not pointing to any one post here, just commenting in general - it's not fair to expect exactly the same degree sensitivity when the emotion in play is anger that people aren't doing/thinking the way we want them to.
Let's leave it at that, since as I said, there's no fundamental disagreement.
EDIT: Quasi ninja'd by Bosk.
Edit, where did you go Stads? I'm traveling to Dallas next week.
I was in Southwest Florida, with my parents. Being in Florida was fine; for the most part there are no masks, but for the most part there is social distancing more or less (so much is outside there). The airports/travel was a stressful experience, to say the least. It seems to me the airlines have adjusted; there are less people flying, but they've cut back on their planes, so the planes are just as full. All four of my flights were completely full with a standby list.
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Four flights??
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That's a legit assesment, though I wasn't really looking for sympathy, but was more putting a personal and intimate face on the downside of the whole anti-vax movement, that people are needlessly dying because of massive amounts of misinformation. As to what transpired between Ben and I, I said my piece and am stepping out of the argument.
Now...onto the good stuff. With some of the best numbers of the Delta surge in the nation, the SF Bay Area announced that they will be easing mask mandates next Friday.
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I'm getting pretty nervous about travelling to Israel. I booked a trip there with my girlfriend for early November back in....April? May? Figuring things would be a bit easier by now. I'm taking her there to meet my mom so that other things can progress. Well, as of now Israel still isn't letting in individual foreigners without very special reasons. They are supposed to make an announcement soon about easing restrictions, but it's all just so tight. The flight is Nov 2nd or 3rd and it would take a few weeks for her to fill out the necessary paperwork. Their cases are quite low at the moment, and I get playing it safe, but I won't have another opportunity to go with her till at least summer or early Fall 2022. I hope they make some announcement soon and that it's good news we can jump on.
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I'm getting pretty nervous about travelling to Israel. I booked a trip there with my girlfriend for early November back in....April? May? Figuring things would be a bit easier by now. I'm taking her there to meet my mom so that other things can progress. Well, as of now Israel still isn't letting in individual foreigners without very special reasons. They are supposed to make an announcement soon about easing restrictions, but it's all just so tight. The flight is Nov 2nd or 3rd and it would take a few weeks for her to fill out the necessary paperwork. Their cases are quite low at the moment, and I get playing it safe, but I won't have another opportunity to go with her till at least summer or early Fall 2022. I hope they make some announcement soon and that it's good news we can jump on.
They're well ahead of pretty much everyone else on the vaccine curve, right? Aren't they already well into booster rounds?
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Four flights??
BDL -> ATL -> RSW
RSW -> ATL -> BDL
Two legs in either direction.
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I'm getting pretty nervous about travelling to Israel. I booked a trip there with my girlfriend for early November back in....April? May? Figuring things would be a bit easier by now. I'm taking her there to meet my mom so that other things can progress. Well, as of now Israel still isn't letting in individual foreigners without very special reasons. They are supposed to make an announcement soon about easing restrictions, but it's all just so tight. The flight is Nov 2nd or 3rd and it would take a few weeks for her to fill out the necessary paperwork. Their cases are quite low at the moment, and I get playing it safe, but I won't have another opportunity to go with her till at least summer or early Fall 2022. I hope they make some announcement soon and that it's good news we can jump on.
They're well ahead of pretty much everyone else on the vaccine curve, right? Aren't they already well into booster rounds?
Yea. They’re doing quite well. With like 75% or something of major cases being the unvaccinated. And most have their boosters. Still not letting non citizens in without special reasons.
Of course this wasn’t helped when a ton of Orthodox Jews went to Ukraine for a yearly pilgrimage and faked vaccine cards/negative tests to get back in, thus bringing back a considerable amount of Covid because blah blah blah I am unhappy with them.
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I'm getting pretty nervous about travelling to Israel. I booked a trip there with my girlfriend for early November back in....April? May? Figuring things would be a bit easier by now. I'm taking her there to meet my mom so that other things can progress. Well, as of now Israel still isn't letting in individual foreigners without very special reasons. They are supposed to make an announcement soon about easing restrictions, but it's all just so tight. The flight is Nov 2nd or 3rd and it would take a few weeks for her to fill out the necessary paperwork. Their cases are quite low at the moment, and I get playing it safe, but I won't have another opportunity to go with her till at least summer or early Fall 2022. I hope they make some announcement soon and that it's good news we can jump on.
They're well ahead of pretty much everyone else on the vaccine curve, right? Aren't they already well into booster rounds?
Yea. They’re doing quite well. With like 75% or something of major cases being the unvaccinated. And most have their boosters. Still not letting non citizens in without special reasons.
Of course this wasn’t helped when a ton of Orthodox Jews went to Ukraine for a yearly pilgrimage and faked vaccine cards/negative tests to get back in, thus bringing back a considerable amount of Covid because blah blah blah I am unhappy with them.
The religious exemption in action.
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Four flights??
BDL -> ATL -> RSW
RSW -> ATL -> BDL
Two legs in either direction.
Same for me next week with both stops in Chicago via Dallas.
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Four flights??
BDL -> ATL -> RSW
RSW -> ATL -> BDL
Two legs in either direction.
Gotcha. No direct flights from CT.
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Now...onto the good stuff. With some of the best numbers of the Delta surge in the nation, the SF Bay Area announced that they will be easing mask mandates next Friday.
The Delta surge is interesting; it looks to be following that similar COVID ebb and flow of roughly two months. That aspect of this virus is fascinating.
This is Yahoo, (https://news.yahoo.com/trying-sense-covids-mysterious-2-121821028.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJ91IvEvteTyvb5SIvu1SiSCu2riEotcH08y2vp9rqnD40RiwI3wRsY1yW_jHfapQ5mtQdidERwU6XkWh4e1V-ZmP4prm-0FQmot5sYsQPl_92-hDHX0vWxLLSwAOS2eJAXoygJqiUwHP0gw-zS_6VjxCjRNn1YQDJvvJIUKRsOC) but it's the same article that originally appeared in the NY Times "Morning" publication (which is excellent, by the way).
One thing that sticks out at me, primarily because I have posted it here before, is this quote:
“We’ve ascribed far too much human authority over the virus,” as Michael Osterholm, an infectious-disease expert at the University of Minnesota, has told me.
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Now...onto the good stuff. With some of the best numbers of the Delta surge in the nation, the SF Bay Area announced that they will be easing mask mandates next Friday.
The Delta surge is interesting; it looks to be following that similar COVID ebb and flow of roughly two months. That aspect of this virus is fascinating.
This is Yahoo, (https://news.yahoo.com/trying-sense-covids-mysterious-2-121821028.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJ91IvEvteTyvb5SIvu1SiSCu2riEotcH08y2vp9rqnD40RiwI3wRsY1yW_jHfapQ5mtQdidERwU6XkWh4e1V-ZmP4prm-0FQmot5sYsQPl_92-hDHX0vWxLLSwAOS2eJAXoygJqiUwHP0gw-zS_6VjxCjRNn1YQDJvvJIUKRsOC) but it's the same article that originally appeared in the NY Times "Morning" publication (which is excellent, by the way).
One thing that sticks out at me, primarily because I have posted it here before, is this quote:
“We’ve ascribed far too much human authority over the virus,” as Michael Osterholm, an infectious-disease expert at the University of Minnesota, has told me.
And how does that authority transpire into the reactions of the people? By generating fear, you create panic and in the state of panic people will start to look for help and end up resorting to their leaders for guidance on what to do.
This leads followers to easily be manipulated into authoritarian control and demands. It then forms a justification for the authority under the context of public safety and the health of the community, for their mandates and orders.
And this quote from that article shows that fear of the unknown...
Public health researchers do not understand why. Many popular explanations — such as seasonality or the ebbs and flows of mask wearing and social distancing — are clearly insufficient, if not wrong. The two-month cycle has occurred during different seasons of the year and occurred even when human behavior was not changing in obvious ways.
The most-plausible explanations involve some combination of virus biology and social networks. Perhaps each virus variant is especially likely to infect some people but not others — and once many of the most vulnerable have been exposed, the virus recedes. And perhaps a variant needs about two months to circulate through an average-sized community.
Also, if you took a vaccine then your symptoms should be similar to the common cold. And thus, it's not an illness one should be concerned about more so than the other sicknesses you can still get, unrelated to the Covid-19 strand of Coronaviruses.
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Now...onto the good stuff. With some of the best numbers of the Delta surge in the nation, the SF Bay Area announced that they will be easing mask mandates next Friday.
The Delta surge is interesting; it looks to be following that similar COVID ebb and flow of roughly two months. That aspect of this virus is fascinating.
This is Yahoo, (https://news.yahoo.com/trying-sense-covids-mysterious-2-121821028.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJ91IvEvteTyvb5SIvu1SiSCu2riEotcH08y2vp9rqnD40RiwI3wRsY1yW_jHfapQ5mtQdidERwU6XkWh4e1V-ZmP4prm-0FQmot5sYsQPl_92-hDHX0vWxLLSwAOS2eJAXoygJqiUwHP0gw-zS_6VjxCjRNn1YQDJvvJIUKRsOC) but it's the same article that originally appeared in the NY Times "Morning" publication (which is excellent, by the way).
One thing that sticks out at me, primarily because I have posted it here before, is this quote:
“We’ve ascribed far too much human authority over the virus,” as Michael Osterholm, an infectious-disease expert at the University of Minnesota, has told me.
Yeah, the two month curve thing is very interesting IMO. I mentioned this back in August as saying we'd see cases come down soon based solely on how previous waves had similar patterns. I wasn't off by much and it's really surprising because with schools returning and packed college stadiums, tons of bands touring to huge crowds, you'd expect the cases to still rise and they haven't. It kept to the same pattern and there's not a single expert I've read who knows why this is the case. The best guess is because "that variant swept through the susceptible population".
Anyway, having said that the delta wave is on the down turn seemingly (this is no guarantee btw) a lot of experts are starting to think we have now experienced the worst of covid and the waves in the future are likely to be smaller. And we should have "control" over the virus within the next year (Maybe by summer 2022). Just predictions, but I can see and understand why they are predicting this. For now. This stuff changes fairly rapidly. It also could be a good reason why DT did postpone the tour, it's possible (and I didn't think this at all was possible a couple weeks ago) that February will be better than November.
Speaking of Florida, my parents were just up here last weekend from Florida to go to a wedding. It was very nice to see them and we all had fun at the wedding. They didn't mention anything odd about flying. I'll be going down there for Thanksgiving, but before that I'll also be flying for one day to Atlanta to see Metallica and Greta Van Fleet. And now work is asking HR for approval to send me to Amsterdam in December. With how my summer went (21 concerts) it very much feels like the pandemic is mostly in the past. As in, the lockdowns and restrictions and most of the masking. I don't expect covid to go anywhere, I may even catch it at some point, we will always see cases IMO but life is moving on from my perspective.
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I find myself constantly conflicted about how I feel about this whole thing.
We lost my grandfather to it in December, so part of me can't help but taking it a bit personally when people balk/bitch about restrictions or out-right deny that anything needs to be done.
On the other hand, I wasn't particularly close with him. There wasn't any drama or anything, we're just different people, and I've been bad about letting life in general distract me from being an active participant in my family as an adult. This makes it feel a bit performative (albeit internally) when I get upset at anti-vaxxers/maskers.
The pandemic came at a bad time, I'd just moved across the country to a large city to take a crack at finding my place in a bigger music scene, and all the inroads I'd made had just been eviscerated. Other than that, many many people have had it worse, and my day-to-day went back to somewhat normal shortly into the pandemic. I've got a great partner, found a decent day job to keep me grounded, and I still managed to get out and gig at least every month or so, so I feel guilty about some of the indignation I feel.
Like, who am I to judge? I do a lot of the same shit as before, just wearing a mask at the store or in the time it takes to get from the door to my table. I've flown to Texas and back (gasp!) and will do so again next week for a bachelor party, and was very on the "I've had my shot, I'm done with masks" train for a few weeks before the mandates came back, and now I'm back to being judgy when I see someone without one at Home Depot.
I don't know, this whole thing's weird.
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Now...onto the good stuff. With some of the best numbers of the Delta surge in the nation, the SF Bay Area announced that they will be easing mask mandates next Friday.
The Delta surge is interesting; it looks to be following that similar COVID ebb and flow of roughly two months. That aspect of this virus is fascinating.
This is Yahoo, (https://news.yahoo.com/trying-sense-covids-mysterious-2-121821028.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJ91IvEvteTyvb5SIvu1SiSCu2riEotcH08y2vp9rqnD40RiwI3wRsY1yW_jHfapQ5mtQdidERwU6XkWh4e1V-ZmP4prm-0FQmot5sYsQPl_92-hDHX0vWxLLSwAOS2eJAXoygJqiUwHP0gw-zS_6VjxCjRNn1YQDJvvJIUKRsOC) but it's the same article that originally appeared in the NY Times "Morning" publication (which is excellent, by the way).
One thing that sticks out at me, primarily because I have posted it here before, is this quote:
“We’ve ascribed far too much human authority over the virus,” as Michael Osterholm, an infectious-disease expert at the University of Minnesota, has told me.
Yup, so much this. Each perspective of the battle against covid is very guilty of it, when in truth we're pretty fucking powerless. I think the sooner we admit that, and agree to throw everything we have at it instead of quibbling over stupid shit, we'll be out of this sooner.
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Also, if you took a vaccine then your symptoms should be similar to the common cold.
That is not necessarily true.
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Also, if you took a vaccine then your symptoms should be similar to the common cold.
That is not necessarily true.
"SHOULD" as in, people who do catch it may likely have asymptomatic symptoms and won't know the difference between the common cold and Covid-19. Until that person goes and voluntarily gets tested, they won't know for sure they have it. You have people out there who did take the vaccine who are assuming, since the symptoms are not bad, they have the common cold. They will then pop a Tylenol and go about their day as normal.
The advice from doctors that they have said long before Covid-19 is holding to actually be worthwhile..."Stay Home" if you feel sick. Wash your hands to prevent the spread of harmful bacteria and germs, especially after wiping your bum (which I have witnessed that not many people would do before Covid-19). My dad actually was working with someone one time who went to work, snotty nosed and all, they told him to go home and he finally did after their lunch break. He went to the doctor and found out he had Pneumonia. Even still, my dad said he was out there smoking a cigarette...
What Covid-19 made me realize is how careless people were with this advice and how gross and unsanitary people are. Makes me imagine how nasty and unsanitary those people from the colonizer boats were. It's a neat insight to the possibility that we were killed off by disease because they were unsanitary and were full of these sicknesses. But yet, here we are still, struggling, but still here.
Rather than being negative. I feel it's also beneficial to be optimistic and realize that throughout history, we humans have survived a lot. And we shouldn't let a virus make our minds so fearful of sudden doom, to the point where we can actually shape and mold it to reality.
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Now...onto the good stuff. With some of the best numbers of the Delta surge in the nation, the SF Bay Area announced that they will be easing mask mandates next Friday.
The Delta surge is interesting; it looks to be following that similar COVID ebb and flow of roughly two months. That aspect of this virus is fascinating.
This is Yahoo, (https://news.yahoo.com/trying-sense-covids-mysterious-2-121821028.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJ91IvEvteTyvb5SIvu1SiSCu2riEotcH08y2vp9rqnD40RiwI3wRsY1yW_jHfapQ5mtQdidERwU6XkWh4e1V-ZmP4prm-0FQmot5sYsQPl_92-hDHX0vWxLLSwAOS2eJAXoygJqiUwHP0gw-zS_6VjxCjRNn1YQDJvvJIUKRsOC) but it's the same article that originally appeared in the NY Times "Morning" publication (which is excellent, by the way).
One thing that sticks out at me, primarily because I have posted it here before, is this quote:
“We’ve ascribed far too much human authority over the virus,” as Michael Osterholm, an infectious-disease expert at the University of Minnesota, has told me.
And how does that authority transpire into the reactions of the people? By generating fear, you create panic and in the state of panic people will start to look for help and end up resorting to their leaders for guidance on what to do.
This leads followers to easily be manipulated into authoritarian control and demands. It then forms a justification for the authority under the context of public safety and the health of the community, for their mandates and orders.
And this quote from that article shows that fear of the unknown...
Public health researchers do not understand why. Many popular explanations — such as seasonality or the ebbs and flows of mask wearing and social distancing — are clearly insufficient, if not wrong. The two-month cycle has occurred during different seasons of the year and occurred even when human behavior was not changing in obvious ways.
The most-plausible explanations involve some combination of virus biology and social networks. Perhaps each virus variant is especially likely to infect some people but not others — and once many of the most vulnerable have been exposed, the virus recedes. And perhaps a variant needs about two months to circulate through an average-sized community.
Also, if you took a vaccine then your symptoms should be similar to the common cold. And thus, it's not an illness one should be concerned about more so than the other sicknesses you can still get, unrelated to the Covid-19 strand of Coronaviruses.
Well, I think the "fear" is the problem; we KNOW that there are fundamental differences in how people assimilate and deal with "fear", and there are even studies that show how those differences feed (generally) into political party affiliations. Just because Person A is "fearful" of COVID and goes and gets a vaccine, doesn't mean that Person B will do the same in the face of the same fear.
I'm also just as "fearful" of government overreach and furthering this opinion that government is here to protect us from ourselves. So which "fear" controls?
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Now...onto the good stuff. With some of the best numbers of the Delta surge in the nation, the SF Bay Area announced that they will be easing mask mandates next Friday.
The Delta surge is interesting; it looks to be following that similar COVID ebb and flow of roughly two months. That aspect of this virus is fascinating.
This is Yahoo, (https://news.yahoo.com/trying-sense-covids-mysterious-2-121821028.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJ91IvEvteTyvb5SIvu1SiSCu2riEotcH08y2vp9rqnD40RiwI3wRsY1yW_jHfapQ5mtQdidERwU6XkWh4e1V-ZmP4prm-0FQmot5sYsQPl_92-hDHX0vWxLLSwAOS2eJAXoygJqiUwHP0gw-zS_6VjxCjRNn1YQDJvvJIUKRsOC) but it's the same article that originally appeared in the NY Times "Morning" publication (which is excellent, by the way).
One thing that sticks out at me, primarily because I have posted it here before, is this quote:
“We’ve ascribed far too much human authority over the virus,” as Michael Osterholm, an infectious-disease expert at the University of Minnesota, has told me.
And how does that authority transpire into the reactions of the people? By generating fear, you create panic and in the state of panic people will start to look for help and end up resorting to their leaders for guidance on what to do.
This leads followers to easily be manipulated into authoritarian control and demands. It then forms a justification for the authority under the context of public safety and the health of the community, for their mandates and orders.
And this quote from that article shows that fear of the unknown...
Public health researchers do not understand why. Many popular explanations — such as seasonality or the ebbs and flows of mask wearing and social distancing — are clearly insufficient, if not wrong. The two-month cycle has occurred during different seasons of the year and occurred even when human behavior was not changing in obvious ways.
The most-plausible explanations involve some combination of virus biology and social networks. Perhaps each virus variant is especially likely to infect some people but not others — and once many of the most vulnerable have been exposed, the virus recedes. And perhaps a variant needs about two months to circulate through an average-sized community.
Also, if you took a vaccine then your symptoms should be similar to the common cold. And thus, it's not an illness one should be concerned about more so than the other sicknesses you can still get, unrelated to the Covid-19 strand of Coronaviruses.
Well, I think the "fear" is the problem; we KNOW that there are fundamental differences in how people assimilate and deal with "fear", and there are even studies that show how those differences feed (generally) into political party affiliations. Just because Person A is "fearful" of COVID and goes and gets a vaccine, doesn't mean that Person B will do the same in the face of the same fear.
I'm also just as "fearful" of government overreach and furthering this opinion that government is here to protect us from ourselves. So which "fear" controls?
Are you talking about the current government that wants t save lives or the past government that willingly spreading misinformation that has costs hundreds of thousands of lives needlessly?
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:corn
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Now...onto the good stuff. With some of the best numbers of the Delta surge in the nation, the SF Bay Area announced that they will be easing mask mandates next Friday.
The Delta surge is interesting; it looks to be following that similar COVID ebb and flow of roughly two months. That aspect of this virus is fascinating.
This is Yahoo, (https://news.yahoo.com/trying-sense-covids-mysterious-2-121821028.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJ91IvEvteTyvb5SIvu1SiSCu2riEotcH08y2vp9rqnD40RiwI3wRsY1yW_jHfapQ5mtQdidERwU6XkWh4e1V-ZmP4prm-0FQmot5sYsQPl_92-hDHX0vWxLLSwAOS2eJAXoygJqiUwHP0gw-zS_6VjxCjRNn1YQDJvvJIUKRsOC) but it's the same article that originally appeared in the NY Times "Morning" publication (which is excellent, by the way).
One thing that sticks out at me, primarily because I have posted it here before, is this quote:
“We’ve ascribed far too much human authority over the virus,” as Michael Osterholm, an infectious-disease expert at the University of Minnesota, has told me.
And how does that authority transpire into the reactions of the people? By generating fear, you create panic and in the state of panic people will start to look for help and end up resorting to their leaders for guidance on what to do.
This leads followers to easily be manipulated into authoritarian control and demands. It then forms a justification for the authority under the context of public safety and the health of the community, for their mandates and orders.
And this quote from that article shows that fear of the unknown...
Public health researchers do not understand why. Many popular explanations — such as seasonality or the ebbs and flows of mask wearing and social distancing — are clearly insufficient, if not wrong. The two-month cycle has occurred during different seasons of the year and occurred even when human behavior was not changing in obvious ways.
The most-plausible explanations involve some combination of virus biology and social networks. Perhaps each virus variant is especially likely to infect some people but not others — and once many of the most vulnerable have been exposed, the virus recedes. And perhaps a variant needs about two months to circulate through an average-sized community.
Also, if you took a vaccine then your symptoms should be similar to the common cold. And thus, it's not an illness one should be concerned about more so than the other sicknesses you can still get, unrelated to the Covid-19 strand of Coronaviruses.
Well, I think the "fear" is the problem; we KNOW that there are fundamental differences in how people assimilate and deal with "fear", and there are even studies that show how those differences feed (generally) into political party affiliations. Just because Person A is "fearful" of COVID and goes and gets a vaccine, doesn't mean that Person B will do the same in the face of the same fear.
I'm also just as "fearful" of government overreach and furthering this opinion that government is here to protect us from ourselves. So which "fear" controls?
Are you talking about the current government that wants t save lives or the past government that willingly spreading misinformation that has costs hundreds of thousands of lives needlessly?
Not going to bite; you know (or should know) I'm not coming at this from a point of "sides". Your spin on the current and past administration don't sway me (whether I agree with them or not); there are plenty of people who could spin them both just as much in the opposite direction. Personally I tend to think, as usual, we're in the middle somewhere.
I'm talking about a more general philosophical approach that says "I feel we need this, government make it so!"
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A case that had me musing out loud for the past two days.
This week in Serbia, a woman pregnant with twins was admitted to the hospital in very bad condition from the virus. Unvaxd; despite the official recommendation that you can and should get the shots if you're pregnant, there's plenty of people saying "nah, just wait until you've had the baby, just in case", including many gynecologists (many key antivaxx media figures in Serbia are doctors). Sadly, the doctors couldn't save neither her nor the babies. She was 20. Her 22-year-old fiance was interviewed and he said, and I quote: "I'm not one of those deniers or anything, but this is a little sus to me: it's been only ten days since we knew she was sick, I don't know how it's possible to die that quickly??" When asked how he dealt with the virus, seeing how they lived together and all, he answered that "he's fine, not vaccinated and didn't get tested".
I'm not sure why we turn a blind eye to the kind of pervasive selective disinformation that will give someone half a clue that it's not good to say you deny the existence of the virus, but not enough of a clue to get tested when the woman you live with is hooked to a respirator. Or why it's often said it's impolite to saturate society with "pro-vax propaganda" because people are informed enough to decide whether or not they should take it on their own, but that average someone is apparently not informed enough to know that, yes, sometimes it takes ten days from when you start feeling sick enough to go see a doctor to death.
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I can't believe it's come to this, but I fired off this email to my school board tonight. It speaks for itself, really.
I would like to draw your attention to something concerning that now involves one of the board members' activities on social media. I have not yet made this public, as I feel the board should have an opportunity to handle this internally.
Board Member XXXXX is and has remained an administrator of the YYYY Facebook Group during his term as a board member. (Screenshot #1)
Today, a post in this Facebook group was made by a parent in the district and is strongly advocating that area school districts should be sued via a class action lawsuit regarding the school's mask mandate. The lawsuit would be handled by attorney ZZZZ, who has made a name for himself over the last year and a half by acting as an advocate for individuals and businesses that disagree with proactive COVID measures designed to limit the spread of the virus. (Screenshot 2).
This parent followed up in a comment to her original post, stating that they are taking the lead in contacting Attorney ZZZZ in naming District ____ as a defendant in a class action suit (Screenshot #3).
Approximately one month ago, as schools in the area were starting their fall sessions, Board member XXXXX made a public comment elsewhere on a Facebook page, advocating for a different school district to contact Attorney ZZZZ and file suit to fight the mandate. (Screenshot #4)
Board member XXXX's position as an administrator in this Facebook group that is now publicly allowing the facilitation of a class action lawsuit against District ____ puts him in a very bad conflict of interest. It also goes directly against the oath that he took as a school board member to uphold the district's taxpayer interests (https://ilga.gov/legislation/publicacts/fulltext.asp?Name=094-0881&GA=94), which is backed by Illinois state law in the link provided.
This can also certainly be considered a breach of Fiduciary duty by Board Member XXXX as well going against state law and his oath. While he did not advocate for school districts to be sued, the optics of him naming Attorney ZZZZ in a personal comment, while allowing parents in a Facebook group that he runs to also contact Attorney Devore are not good. It is very easy to deduce that he would support District ____ being sued, despite being a board member, given his public comments against mask mandates for students.
Personally, I would hate to see our district dragged into a lawsuit over masks. Like many, I wish that the children did not need to wear them, but I am thankful that the district has taken such proactive measures for our children's health. If the district were named in a lawsuit, nobody wins, especially the kids.
Seeing one of our own board members putting their personal and political beliefs ahead of his duties as a board member and ahead of the safety and health of our children is very troubling.
Thank you for your time.
I'm interested in seeing what happens with this, as I laid out a nice little case for a school board member potentially breaking not only his oath as a board member, but Illinois state law, by letting an unofficial Facebook group about the school district that he runs discuss and facilitate a possible class action suit against his own school district.
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Just sayin, you failed to redact a few instances of the names of the Board Member and Attorney.
But yah, that's shyte. People are the worst.
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Thanks...fixed!
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Thanks...fixed!
Still missed one! :lol
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Now...onto the good stuff. With some of the best numbers of the Delta surge in the nation, the SF Bay Area announced that they will be easing mask mandates next Friday.
The Delta surge is interesting; it looks to be following that similar COVID ebb and flow of roughly two months. That aspect of this virus is fascinating.
This is Yahoo, (https://news.yahoo.com/trying-sense-covids-mysterious-2-121821028.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJ91IvEvteTyvb5SIvu1SiSCu2riEotcH08y2vp9rqnD40RiwI3wRsY1yW_jHfapQ5mtQdidERwU6XkWh4e1V-ZmP4prm-0FQmot5sYsQPl_92-hDHX0vWxLLSwAOS2eJAXoygJqiUwHP0gw-zS_6VjxCjRNn1YQDJvvJIUKRsOC) but it's the same article that originally appeared in the NY Times "Morning" publication (which is excellent, by the way).
One thing that sticks out at me, primarily because I have posted it here before, is this quote:
“We’ve ascribed far too much human authority over the virus,” as Michael Osterholm, an infectious-disease expert at the University of Minnesota, has told me.
And how does that authority transpire into the reactions of the people? By generating fear, you create panic and in the state of panic people will start to look for help and end up resorting to their leaders for guidance on what to do.
This leads followers to easily be manipulated into authoritarian control and demands. It then forms a justification for the authority under the context of public safety and the health of the community, for their mandates and orders.
And this quote from that article shows that fear of the unknown...
Public health researchers do not understand why. Many popular explanations — such as seasonality or the ebbs and flows of mask wearing and social distancing — are clearly insufficient, if not wrong. The two-month cycle has occurred during different seasons of the year and occurred even when human behavior was not changing in obvious ways.
The most-plausible explanations involve some combination of virus biology and social networks. Perhaps each virus variant is especially likely to infect some people but not others — and once many of the most vulnerable have been exposed, the virus recedes. And perhaps a variant needs about two months to circulate through an average-sized community.
Also, if you took a vaccine then your symptoms should be similar to the common cold. And thus, it's not an illness one should be concerned about more so than the other sicknesses you can still get, unrelated to the Covid-19 strand of Coronaviruses.
Well, I think the "fear" is the problem; we KNOW that there are fundamental differences in how people assimilate and deal with "fear", and there are even studies that show how those differences feed (generally) into political party affiliations. Just because Person A is "fearful" of COVID and goes and gets a vaccine, doesn't mean that Person B will do the same in the face of the same fear.
I'm also just as "fearful" of government overreach and furthering this opinion that government is here to protect us from ourselves. So which "fear" controls?
I don't necessarily have "fear" of the government more so that I have generational trauma caused by the governments treatment of my people and my ancestors, and also my grandparents.
This knowledge of what we knew that very well could've, and does, benefit the people was demolished and wiped away. Our Self-Dependancy was taken by making us assimilate into being "christian" and then "civilized". Now we are dependant and reliant on the very people that did this to us.
The trauma caused by the government and distrust of it, overweighs my fear of the virus. And it's true, look at the abuse of power the leaders are doing playing off of the fear people have of this virus.
And in this modern society people fear a lot of things because of their ignorance. Humans have a natural fear of the unknown. While others do not have that fear and will take the risk, to help that bear that fell, to rescue that kid stuck in the train tracks, or help that women being mugged rather than recording the incident happening so they can get social media likes.
Now...onto the good stuff. With some of the best numbers of the Delta surge in the nation, the SF Bay Area announced that they will be easing mask mandates next Friday.
The Delta surge is interesting; it looks to be following that similar COVID ebb and flow of roughly two months. That aspect of this virus is fascinating.
This is Yahoo, (https://news.yahoo.com/trying-sense-covids-mysterious-2-121821028.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJ91IvEvteTyvb5SIvu1SiSCu2riEotcH08y2vp9rqnD40RiwI3wRsY1yW_jHfapQ5mtQdidERwU6XkWh4e1V-ZmP4prm-0FQmot5sYsQPl_92-hDHX0vWxLLSwAOS2eJAXoygJqiUwHP0gw-zS_6VjxCjRNn1YQDJvvJIUKRsOC) but it's the same article that originally appeared in the NY Times "Morning" publication (which is excellent, by the way).
One thing that sticks out at me, primarily because I have posted it here before, is this quote:
“We’ve ascribed far too much human authority over the virus,” as Michael Osterholm, an infectious-disease expert at the University of Minnesota, has told me.
And how does that authority transpire into the reactions of the people? By generating fear, you create panic and in the state of panic people will start to look for help and end up resorting to their leaders for guidance on what to do.
This leads followers to easily be manipulated into authoritarian control and demands. It then forms a justification for the authority under the context of public safety and the health of the community, for their mandates and orders.
And this quote from that article shows that fear of the unknown...
Public health researchers do not understand why. Many popular explanations — such as seasonality or the ebbs and flows of mask wearing and social distancing — are clearly insufficient, if not wrong. The two-month cycle has occurred during different seasons of the year and occurred even when human behavior was not changing in obvious ways.
The most-plausible explanations involve some combination of virus biology and social networks. Perhaps each virus variant is especially likely to infect some people but not others — and once many of the most vulnerable have been exposed, the virus recedes. And perhaps a variant needs about two months to circulate through an average-sized community.
Also, if you took a vaccine then your symptoms should be similar to the common cold. And thus, it's not an illness one should be concerned about more so than the other sicknesses you can still get, unrelated to the Covid-19 strand of Coronaviruses.
Well, I think the "fear" is the problem; we KNOW that there are fundamental differences in how people assimilate and deal with "fear", and there are even studies that show how those differences feed (generally) into political party affiliations. Just because Person A is "fearful" of COVID and goes and gets a vaccine, doesn't mean that Person B will do the same in the face of the same fear.
I'm also just as "fearful" of government overreach and furthering this opinion that government is here to protect us from ourselves. So which "fear" controls?
Are you talking about the current government that wants t save lives or the past government that willingly spreading misinformation that has costs hundreds of thousands of lives needlessly?
The government that spread misinformation about minorites such as the slaves and the native peoples being called, hopeless and savage by the newspapers to generate a reaction against the minorites and keep them under white superiority and dominance.
According to the Christians/Catholics, we were savage pagans that needed to be saved from eternal damnation. Because they care so much about our souls not being given the eternal glory of heaven. And the church misinformed their congregation that our ways were evil and demon.
And then the government did the same thing, only we were savage and needed to become "model citizens" of civilization to become a part of this great empire called America, as we were considered a problem. So they said, "The only good indians are dead." So we must "Destroy the Indian, while saving the man" straight psychological warfare by taking away the children into the boarding schools.
That's exactly what they did and why I just laugh because that hand we minorites were dealt has been dealt to the American people now. Albeit it's more a push than a shove.
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I can't believe it's come to this, but I fired off this email to my school board tonight. It speaks for itself, really.
I would like to draw your attention to something concerning that now involves one of the board members' activities on social media. I have not yet made this public, as I feel the board should have an opportunity to handle this internally.
Board Member XXXXX is and has remained an administrator of the YYYY Facebook Group during his term as a board member. (Screenshot #1)
Today, a post in this Facebook group was made by a parent in the district and is strongly advocating that area school districts should be sued via a class action lawsuit regarding the school's mask mandate. The lawsuit would be handled by attorney ZZZZ, who has made a name for himself over the last year and a half by acting as an advocate for individuals and businesses that disagree with proactive COVID measures designed to limit the spread of the virus. (Screenshot 2).
This parent followed up in a comment to her original post, stating that they are taking the lead in contacting Attorney ZZZZ in naming District ____ as a defendant in a class action suit (Screenshot #3).
Approximately one month ago, as schools in the area were starting their fall sessions, Board member XXXXX made a public comment elsewhere on a Facebook page, advocating for a different school district to contact Attorney ZZZZ and file suit to fight the mandate. (Screenshot #4)
Board member XXXX's position as an administrator in this Facebook group that is now publicly allowing the facilitation of a class action lawsuit against District ____ puts him in a very bad conflict of interest. It also goes directly against the oath that he took as a school board member to uphold the district's taxpayer interests (https://ilga.gov/legislation/publicacts/fulltext.asp?Name=094-0881&GA=94), which is backed by Illinois state law in the link provided.
This can also certainly be considered a breach of Fiduciary duty by Board Member XXXX as well going against state law and his oath. While he did not advocate for school districts to be sued, the optics of him naming Attorney ZZZZ in a personal comment, while allowing parents in a Facebook group that he runs to also contact Attorney Devore are not good. It is very easy to deduce that he would support District ____ being sued, despite being a board member, given his public comments against mask mandates for students.
Personally, I would hate to see our district dragged into a lawsuit over masks. Like many, I wish that the children did not need to wear them, but I am thankful that the district has taken such proactive measures for our children's health. If the district were named in a lawsuit, nobody wins, especially the kids.
Seeing one of our own board members putting their personal and political beliefs ahead of his duties as a board member and ahead of the safety and health of our children is very troubling.
Thank you for your time.
I'm interested in seeing what happens with this, as I laid out a nice little case for a school board member potentially breaking not only his oath as a board member, but Illinois state law, by letting an unofficial Facebook group about the school district that he runs discuss and facilitate a possible class action suit against his own school district.
Just asking a question here.... the school puts a mandate in place that there can be no activities with any focus on race, religion or ethnicity. Same school board member goes on and advocates that Attorney ZZZZ sue the school to allow for the kids to meet as a sort of local chapter of Black Lives Matter. Are you writing that letter? Are you maintaining that the board member broke their oath (by the way, it's possible they did not*)? Are you maintaining that that school board member is breaking their fiduciary duty (which they do have)?
Don't assume I'm judging whether it is right or wrong in either instance, I'm just asking about your general feelings.
A sort of tangentially related question, though: why is any diversion from "pro-vaccine, pro-mask" immediately determined to be "political"?
* The oath of office I saw for Illinois School Board Members includes this line (https://www.iasb.com/conference-training-and-events/training/training-resources/oath-of-office/): "I shall abide by majority decisions of the board, while retaining the right to seek changes in such decisions through ethical and constructive channels;" I think you have a hard putt to claim that social media and the State Courts of Illinois are neither ethical or constructive.
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Just asking a question here.... the school puts a mandate in place that there can be no activities with any focus on race, religion or ethnicity. Same school board member goes on and advocates that Attorney ZZZZ sue the school to allow for the kids to meet as a sort of local chapter of Black Lives Matter. Are you writing that letter? Are you maintaining that the board member broke their oath (by the way, it's possible they did not*)? Are you maintaining that that school board member is breaking their fiduciary duty (which they do have)?
Don't assume I'm judging whether it is right or wrong in either instance, I'm just asking about your general feelings.
I am not taking up other fights. I took issue with one thing. A different parent who feels strongly in that situation may take it up with the board.
The same parent organizing the lawsuit against the district tends to take up issues that concern her and her family (i.e. "a teacher taught my kids about transgender issues, and my family believes homosexuality to be immoral and wrong, and should not be taught by schools" - this is actually something that she brought to the board within the last year)
A sort of tangentially related question, though: why is any diversion from "pro-vaccine, pro-mask" immediately determined to be "political"?
The board member in question is a prominent local Republican, and the comment that I screenshotted from him appeared on another prominent Republican's page. His issues with our state's Democratic governor are well documented through area social media groups and he is very vocal about not following the governor's mandates. The lawyer that is being hired is a prominent Republican lawyer that has taken charge against our state's Democratic governor in all things related to COVID (mandates, economic closures, etc.). This issue is political at its core - he is undermining the school board's mandate and is not stopping the discussion of a lawsuit against the school because he personally agrees with it.
* The oath of office I saw for Illinois School Board Members includes this line (https://www.iasb.com/conference-training-and-events/training/training-resources/oath-of-office/): "I shall abide by majority decisions of the board, while retaining the right to seek changes in such decisions through ethical and constructive channels;" I think you have a hard putt to claim that social media and the State Courts of Illinois are neither ethical or constructive.
That may be true, but the basis of this claim is that the social media group that he runs is facilitating a lawsuit against the school. He maintains that his comments in said group are solely as a parent and not as a board member, and he does abstain from certain conversations, but the fact remains that he IS a board member. He has a fiduciary duty to use our taxpayer dollars wisely, and not to endanger those funds in a backhanded manner. He does want mask mandates to end, despite the board's vote. I think a lawsuit against the school district is not a constructive channel. The school district has to use taxpayer dollars to defend itself.
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Just asking a question here.... the school puts a mandate in place that there can be no activities with any focus on race, religion or ethnicity. Same school board member goes on and advocates that Attorney ZZZZ sue the school to allow for the kids to meet as a sort of local chapter of Black Lives Matter. Are you writing that letter? Are you maintaining that the board member broke their oath (by the way, it's possible they did not*)? Are you maintaining that that school board member is breaking their fiduciary duty (which they do have)?
Don't assume I'm judging whether it is right or wrong in either instance, I'm just asking about your general feelings.
I am not taking up other fights. I took issue with one thing. A different parent who feels strongly in that situation may take it up with the board.
The same parent organizing the lawsuit against the district tends to take up issues that concern her and her family (i.e. "a teacher taught my kids about transgender issues, and my family believes homosexuality to be immoral and wrong, and should not be taught by schools" - this is actually something that she brought to the board within the last year)
I'm trying to get to the process. We are allowed to disagree, even when "science" seems to weigh in favor of one side or another. I'm trying to get to what you see as what should be that process for reasonable, legitimate disagreement.
Our society - not you, necessarily, but you can feel free to tell me I'm wrong - has seemed to morph away from a content-free process that should work for everyone, to a content-based process that seems to only work if you have the "right" (correct) position. We're mixing threads here, but when Lonestar and I talk about majority rule and the problems therein, this is one of them.
The board member in question is a prominent local Republican, and the comment that I screenshotted from him appeared on another prominent Republican's page. His issues with our state's Democratic governor are well documented through area social media groups and he is very vocal about not following the governor's mandates. The lawyer that is being hired is a prominent Republican lawyer that has taken charge against our state's Democratic governor in all things related to COVID (mandates, economic closures, etc.). This issue is political at its core - he is undermining the school board's mandate and is not stopping the discussion of a lawsuit against the school because he personally agrees with it.
So what? So why isn't the position advocated by Democrats likewise political? Again, I'm not grilling you I'm trying to understand; see above.
That may be true, but the basis of this claim is that the social media group that he runs is facilitating a lawsuit against the school. He maintains that his comments in said group are solely as a parent and not as a board member, and he does abstain from certain conversations, but the fact remains that he IS a board member. He has a fiduciary duty to use our taxpayer dollars wisely, and not to endanger those funds in a backhanded manner. He does want mask mandates to end, despite the board's vote. I think a lawsuit against the school district is not a constructive channel. The school district has to use taxpayer dollars to defend itself.
Why do you say "endanger" those funds? The Courts of our country are here for the very purpose they are being used for. You seem to view "lawsuit" as a bad thing, but this is how we progress the rules and laws of our society. Roe v. Wade started as a lawsuit. If that lawsuit comes through and the School Board wins, that is precedent for the entire state. That makes it that much harder for this person to do what they want to do in the future. I would think that if you view the position as sound, that would be a good thing, no? Conversely, if the class action wins, you weren't right, and the best interests of the students WEREN'T being served here.
How do you propose people disagree in a democratic representative republic?
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I put the issue in front of the board. If he is in the right, then they and their attorney can confirm it. Personally, I feel that he is in the wrong, which is why I brought it to their attention.
This isn't necessairly about masks, mandates, lawsuits or politics. It is that he has put himself in a conflict of interest, which is a big no-no for any member of a board of directors. I believe that he has a moral and legal obligation to quash that discussion. His oath as a board member doesn't end when a monthly meeting adjourns.
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I put the issue in front of the board. If he is in the right, then they and their attorney can confirm it. Personally, I feel that he is in the wrong, which is why I brought it to their attention.
This isn't necessairly about masks, mandates, lawsuits or politics. It is that he has put himself in a conflict of interest, which is a big no-no for any member of a board of directors. I believe that he has a moral and legal obligation to quash that discussion. His oath as a board member doesn't end when a monthly meeting adjourns.
Dead serious, and completely sincere: keep us posted. I'm interested to see how it turns out.
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Will do, and thanks for the back and forth. It got me thinking and I sent a follow up email to the school board clarifying that 5his isn't about politics or mask usage, it's about the conflict of interest and the board members attempt to separate himself as a parent when he 8s online, yet still having a duty to taxpayers.
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Fascinating article on the relative pluses and minuses of vaccines by age (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/briefing/covid-age-risk-infection-vaccine.html).
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Fascinating article on the relative pluses and minuses of vaccines by age (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/briefing/covid-age-risk-infection-vaccine.html).
I've been loving the NYT coverage of covid the last few months. I'm sure you've noticed a lot of my takes in this thread often follow what I may have read that morning from reading these daily newsletters. I think they've been very balanced in presenting opposing sides and they seem to usually follow the data and science.
This data is not that surprising though. Children have not been an issue in this pandemic. Not to say children havent gotten sick or even died, but the numbers are just so low that it has been and continues to be quite clear that they are not at any serious risk of long term or short term issues. It is still the elderly and sickly, specifically now the elderly/sickly unvaccinated that are the main issue and it still boggles my mind that if you fall into that catagory and choose not to get a potential life saving vaccine.
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Fascinating article on the relative pluses and minuses of vaccines by age (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/briefing/covid-age-risk-infection-vaccine.html).
I've been loving the NYT coverage of covid the last few months. I'm sure you've noticed a lot of my takes in this thread often follow what I may have read that morning from reading these daily newsletters. I think they've been very balanced in presenting opposing sides and they seem to usually follow the data and science.
This data is not that surprising though. Children have not been an issue in this pandemic. Not to say children havent gotten sick or even died, but the numbers are just so low that it has been and continues to be quite clear that they are not at any serious risk of long term or short term issues. It is still the elderly and sickly, specifically now the elderly/sickly unvaccinated that are the main issue and it still boggles my mind that if you fall into that catagory and choose not to get a potential life saving vaccine.
That's their choice if they do or don't. Like with any medical decision it's their choice whether to take the advice or not. And a lot of people I know do not take their doctors advice anyways.
Most elderly I know are ending up with a lot of pills to take that I do think it's making them lethargic. This is also due to their diets and how stubborn they are with not eating salt, sugars, or stuff that's high in fat. But it's hard when these foods are considered traditional foods.
That's what boggles my mind is it's not just a vaccine issue. It's in general, health issues that are unrelated to the vaccine and the stubbornness of the elderly people.
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asymptomatic symptoms
:lol :rollin :lol That's a good one Dr. Fauci. :clap:
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:lol
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Fascinating article on the relative pluses and minuses of vaccines by age (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/briefing/covid-age-risk-infection-vaccine.html).
I've been loving the NYT coverage of covid the last few months. I'm sure you've noticed a lot of my takes in this thread often follow what I may have read that morning from reading these daily newsletters. I think they've been very balanced in presenting opposing sides and they seem to usually follow the data and science.
This data is not that surprising though. Children have not been an issue in this pandemic. Not to say children havent gotten sick or even died, but the numbers are just so low that it has been and continues to be quite clear that they are not at any serious risk of long term or short term issues. It is still the elderly and sickly, specifically now the elderly/sickly unvaccinated that are the main issue and it still boggles my mind that if you fall into that catagory and choose not to get a potential life saving vaccine.
They are very good. Very factual, and they don't seem to have an agenda. At least it doesn't seem they do given the nature of the information they are sharing. I just think it's refreshing to have information that isn't scandalous and isn't sensationalist. They don't seem to be afraid to present that information that doesn't fully support what you might suspect would be the local or political agenda.
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Looks like America is opening up the border with Mexico and Canada next month?
NO EXCUSES NOW JINGLE!
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Looks like America is opening up the border with Mexico and Canada next month?
NO EXCUSES NOW JINGLE!
To clarify, the air crossings have been "open" for a while - it's the land crossings that have been the rub until now. Also, no official word yet on whether they are accepting those of us that are vaccinated with mixed-doses (I'm AZ-Pfizer). If that isn't WHO recognized, I might still be up shit's creek.
And (as El Barto recently found out), "open" still requires a recent negative test result. Two bills to get that for discretionary purposes. So, "open" is a relative term. I just don't have to quarantine if I were to come over.
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Looks like America is opening up the border with Mexico and Canada next month?
NO EXCUSES NOW JINGLE!
To clarify, the air crossings have been "open" for a while - it's the land crossings that have been the rub until now. Also, no official word yet on whether they are accepting those of us that are vaccinated with mixed-doses (I'm AZ-Pfizer). If that isn't WHO recognized, I might still be up shit's creek.
And (as El Barto recently found out), "open" still requires a recent negative test result. Two bills to get that for discretionary purposes. So, "open" is a relative term. I just don't have to quarantine if I were to come over.
I SAID NO EXCUSES HEF DAMMIT!
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Looks like America is opening up the border with Mexico and Canada next month?
NO EXCUSES NOW JINGLE!
To clarify, the air crossings have been "open" for a while - it's the land crossings that have been the rub until now. Also, no official word yet on whether they are accepting those of us that are vaccinated with mixed-doses (I'm AZ-Pfizer). If that isn't WHO recognized, I might still be up shit's creek.
And (as El Barto recently found out), "open" still requires a recent negative test result. Two bills to get that for discretionary purposes. So, "open" is a relative term. I just don't have to quarantine if I were to come over.
I SAID NO EXCUSES HEF DAMMIT!
Just because you said it doesn't make it so!! It's not like you're Stadler or something!!
P.S. Luv ya Bill.
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Looks like America is opening up the border with Mexico and Canada next month?
NO EXCUSES NOW JINGLE!
To clarify, the air crossings have been "open" for a while - it's the land crossings that have been the rub until now. Also, no official word yet on whether they are accepting those of us that are vaccinated with mixed-doses (I'm AZ-Pfizer). If that isn't WHO recognized, I might still be up shit's creek.
And (as El Barto recently found out), "open" still requires a recent negative test result. Two bills to get that for discretionary purposes. So, "open" is a relative term. I just don't have to quarantine if I were to come over.
I SAID NO EXCUSES HEF DAMMIT!
I have been invoked.
I must rule in Adami's favor. No excuses, most beloved of all Canucks.
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Looks like America is opening up the border with Mexico and Canada next month?
NO EXCUSES NOW JINGLE!
To clarify, the air crossings have been "open" for a while - it's the land crossings that have been the rub until now. Also, no official word yet on whether they are accepting those of us that are vaccinated with mixed-doses (I'm AZ-Pfizer). If that isn't WHO recognized, I might still be up shit's creek.
And (as El Barto recently found out), "open" still requires a recent negative test result. Two bills to get that for discretionary purposes. So, "open" is a relative term. I just don't have to quarantine if I were to come over.
I SAID NO EXCUSES HEF DAMMIT!
Just because you said it doesn't make it so!! It's not like you're Stadler or something!!
P.S. Luv ya Bill.
:metal
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hefdaddy42 fact: hefdaddy42 has been invoked. There are no excuses.
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hefdaddy42 fact: hefdaddy42 has been invoked. There are no excuses.
:metal
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/former-secretary-of-state-colin-powell-dies-from-covid-complications/ar-AAPETjI
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Can't believe he was 84. I didn't think he was that old.
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Just cane to post that. It's frightening to see someone that high profile get taken out with how many treatment options are available to them.
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Just cane to post that. It's frightening to see someone that high profile get taken out with how many treatment options are available to them.
Just goes to show that vaccination alone is not an impenetrable suit of armour. Distancing, hygiene, masking ... all necessary forms of defense - ESPECIALLY (but not exclusively) for the elderly. Wonder if he had any pre-existing conditions / co-morbidities?
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So, Fran Steuber - you're saying "Who?!?", but he was Paul Stanley's guitar tech - died as well, and supposedly he was vaccinated (I say "supposedly" only because I'm working on what I've been told). The information came from a Paul Stanley tweet; the comments/responses are a shit show.
It baffles me how many people think that vaccines are bulletproof, and how many people think that this seemingly "illogical" (in quotes because it's not illogical at all) event is proof-positive that there is some massive conspiracy going on. Look, medical science is inexact, in the sense that there are simply too many variables to consider in every single one of the 7.5 billion people that live on this planet. None of these things are ABSOLUTE, they are RELATIVE. You are not guaranteed of not dying from COVID if you're vaccinated; but your RELATIVE chances are much reduced.
And then there's the group that blame Gene and Paul for this, as if they are responsible for providing a completely risk-free environment at their shows, and as if they are responsible for the actions and decisions of each and every person that decides to go to the show. What IS it with people and accountability? Own yourself. Tend your own garden.
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Just cane to post that. It's frightening to see someone that high profile get taken out with how many treatment options are available to them.
Just goes to show that vaccination alone is not an impenetrable suit of armour. Distancing, hygiene, masking ... all necessary forms of defense - ESPECIALLY (but not exclusively) for the elderly. Wonder if he had any pre-existing conditions / co-morbidities?
I'm not being snarky or sarcastic even a little bit: Yes; he was 84.
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Just cane to post that. It's frightening to see someone that high profile get taken out with how many treatment options are available to them.
Just goes to show that vaccination alone is not an impenetrable suit of armour. Distancing, hygiene, masking ... all necessary forms of defense - ESPECIALLY (but not exclusively) for the elderly. Wonder if he had any pre-existing conditions / co-morbidities?
I'm not being snarky or sarcastic even a little bit: Yes; he was 84.
Yep, and I'd put money on co-morbidities as well.
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Just cane to post that. It's frightening to see someone that high profile get taken out with how many treatment options are available to them.
Just goes to show that vaccination alone is not an impenetrable suit of armour. Distancing, hygiene, masking ... all necessary forms of defense - ESPECIALLY (but not exclusively) for the elderly. Wonder if he had any pre-existing conditions / co-morbidities?
I'm not being snarky or sarcastic even a little bit: Yes; he was 84.
Only in the US is "elderly" considered a pre-existing condition. #funnynotfunny
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Just cane to post that. It's frightening to see someone that high profile get taken out with how many treatment options are available to them.
Just goes to show that vaccination alone is not an impenetrable suit of armour. Distancing, hygiene, masking ... all necessary forms of defense - ESPECIALLY (but not exclusively) for the elderly. Wonder if he had any pre-existing conditions / co-morbidities?
Aside from his age, he had multiple myeloma and thus was immunocompromised. It has been known for some time that immunocompromised folks don't always have the same response to vaccines. Advancing age also limits our bodies abilities to mount an immune response which is why - at least in the US - there is a higher flu vaccine dose for 65 and older.
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Just cane to post that. It's frightening to see someone that high profile get taken out with how many treatment options are available to them.
Just goes to show that vaccination alone is not an impenetrable suit of armour. Distancing, hygiene, masking ... all necessary forms of defense - ESPECIALLY (but not exclusively) for the elderly. Wonder if he had any pre-existing conditions / co-morbidities?
I'm not being snarky or sarcastic even a little bit: Yes; he was 84.
Only in the US is "elderly" considered a pre-existing condition. #funnynotfunny
Well, I'm not sure it's a "Pre-existing Condition" capital P, capital C, in the same way that it comes up in discussions about healthcare. But his age certainly decreased his odds of survival.
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Just cane to post that. It's frightening to see someone that high profile get taken out with how many treatment options are available to them.
Just goes to show that vaccination alone is not an impenetrable suit of armour. Distancing, hygiene, masking ... all necessary forms of defense - ESPECIALLY (but not exclusively) for the elderly. Wonder if he had any pre-existing conditions / co-morbidities?
I'm not being snarky or sarcastic even a little bit: Yes; he was 84.
Only in the US is "elderly" considered a pre-existing condition. #funnynotfunny
Well, I'm not sure it's a "Pre-existing Condition" capital P, capital C, in the same way that it comes up in discussions about healthcare. But his age certainly decreased his odds of survival.
Oh for sure. I just thought we were both trying to be a little extra cheeky. ;)
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I remember doing a project in grade school on Powell from the Gulf War and from that point on I always had respect for him. Sad to hear of him passing, but if we are being honest, at his age he was extremely vulnerable to covid so it's sad, but not surprising. The Kiss guitar tech is a bit more shocking if he was vaccinated being he wasn't too old and from what I read, they say it was "sudden" which is odd because you don't hear to much about a sudden covid death.
In other covid related news, I finally finished watching/listening to the Joe Rogan interview with Dr Sanjay Gupta. After reading a lot of people say one person dominated the other, I had to see for myself and the reality is that it was a pretty good and interesting conversation. No one "dominated" and I think that kind of talk is stupid. But I recommend it, it's good to see two opposite sides talking and listening to each other.
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So, Fran Steuber - you're saying "Who?!?", but he was Paul Stanley's guitar tech - died as well, and supposedly he was vaccinated (I say "supposedly" only because I'm working on what I've been told). The information came from a Paul Stanley tweet; the comments/responses are a shit show.
It baffles me how many people think that vaccines are bulletproof, and how many people think that this seemingly "illogical" (in quotes because it's not illogical at all) event is proof-positive that there is some massive conspiracy going on. Look, medical science is inexact, in the sense that there are simply too many variables to consider in every single one of the 7.5 billion people that live on this planet. None of these things are ABSOLUTE, they are RELATIVE. You are not guaranteed of not dying from COVID if you're vaccinated; but your RELATIVE chances are much reduced.
And then there's the group that blame Gene and Paul for this, as if they are responsible for providing a completely risk-free environment at their shows, and as if they are responsible for the actions and decisions of each and every person that decides to go to the show. What IS it with people and accountability? Own yourself. Tend your own garden.
He was only 52. They worked together for 20 years.
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I remember doing a project in grade school on Powell from the Gulf War and from that point on I always had respect for him. Sad to hear of him passing, but if we are being honest, at his age he was extremely vulnerable to covid so it's sad, but not surprising. The Kiss guitar tech is a bit more shocking if he was vaccinated being he wasn't too old and from what I read, they say it was "sudden" which is odd because you don't hear to much about a sudden covid death.
In other covid related news, I finally finished watching/listening to the Joe Rogan interview with Dr Sanjay Gupta. After reading a lot of people say one person dominated the other, I had to see for myself and the reality is that it was a pretty good and interesting conversation. No one "dominated" and I think that kind of talk is stupid. But I recommend it, it's good to see two opposite sides talking and listening to each other.
Our CEO brought him to a company town-hall a couple months back. Very informational. I might have to check this out.
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I remember doing a project in grade school on Powell from the Gulf War and from that point on I always had respect for him. Sad to hear of him passing, but if we are being honest, at his age he was extremely vulnerable to covid so it's sad, but not surprising. The Kiss guitar tech is a bit more shocking if he was vaccinated being he wasn't too old and from what I read, they say it was "sudden" which is odd because you don't hear to much about a sudden covid death.
In other covid related news, I finally finished watching/listening to the Joe Rogan interview with Dr Sanjay Gupta. After reading a lot of people say one person dominated the other, I had to see for myself and the reality is that it was a pretty good and interesting conversation. No one "dominated" and I think that kind of talk is stupid. But I recommend it, it's good to see two opposite sides talking and listening to each other.
Our CEO brought him to a company town-hall a couple months back. Very informational. I might have to check this out.
Who? Powell, Rogan, Gupta, or Paul Stanley's guitar tech?
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I remember doing a project in grade school on Powell from the Gulf War and from that point on I always had respect for him. Sad to hear of him passing, but if we are being honest, at his age he was extremely vulnerable to covid so it's sad, but not surprising. The Kiss guitar tech is a bit more shocking if he was vaccinated being he wasn't too old and from what I read, they say it was "sudden" which is odd because you don't hear to much about a sudden covid death.
In other covid related news, I finally finished watching/listening to the Joe Rogan interview with Dr Sanjay Gupta. After reading a lot of people say one person dominated the other, I had to see for myself and the reality is that it was a pretty good and interesting conversation. No one "dominated" and I think that kind of talk is stupid. But I recommend it, it's good to see two opposite sides talking and listening to each other.
Our CEO brought him to a company town-hall a couple months back. Very informational. I might have to check this out.
Who? Powell, Rogan, Gupta, or Paul Stanley's guitar tech?
I knew some moron wouldn't connect the dots, and I should've bolded Gupta's name.
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I remember doing a project in grade school on Powell from the Gulf War and from that point on I always had respect for him. Sad to hear of him passing, but if we are being honest, at his age he was extremely vulnerable to covid so it's sad, but not surprising. The Kiss guitar tech is a bit more shocking if he was vaccinated being he wasn't too old and from what I read, they say it was "sudden" which is odd because you don't hear to much about a sudden covid death.
In other covid related news, I finally finished watching/listening to the Joe Rogan interview with Dr Sanjay Gupta. After reading a lot of people say one person dominated the other, I had to see for myself and the reality is that it was a pretty good and interesting conversation. No one "dominated" and I think that kind of talk is stupid. But I recommend it, it's good to see two opposite sides talking and listening to each other.
Our CEO brought him to a company town-hall a couple months back. Very informational. I might have to check this out.
Who? Powell, Rogan, Gupta, or Paul Stanley's guitar tech?
I knew some moron wouldn't connect the dots, and I should've bolded Gupta's name.
:tup
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Sharks forward Evander Kane suspended 21 games for submitting fake vaccine card.
Did he really think they wouldn't check? Fucking dumbass. At least Washington State football coach was up front and just said fuck off and was released.
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Sharks forward Evander Kane suspended 21 games for submitting fake vaccine card.
Did he really think they wouldn't check? Fucking dumbass. At least Washington State football coach was up front and just said fuck off and was released.
Astonishing what people will give up to not give themselves and those closest to them some protection
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Sharks forward Evander Kane suspended 21 games for submitting fake vaccine card.
Did he really think they wouldn't check? Fucking dumbass. At least Washington State football coach was up front and just said fuck off and was released.
Astonishing what people will give up to not give themselves and those closest to them some protection
It's not Astonishing. This has happened throughout history when people are coerced into things, especially in violation of their own body.
The problem lies with the use of coercion. Which the government has done plenty to people, such as the Native Americans. It's how they got them to relocate and begin the "Trail of Tears". If it worked before what makes one think they won't do it again? Only this time it's used on their own people.
When coercion is used, especially when it deals with ones bodily decisions, it just doesn't fare well. You will get backlash as one doesn't see the means for them to put something in their body they don't want. And this may end up getting rejected by the body, as peoples bodies are not the same.
There is no one size fits all solution to peoples health problems. That's why it's very important to see your doctor and to tell them everything that is wrong with you, the doctor can not read your mind, nor do they know how your body feels because it's not their body to sense any pain or something's wrong. And I know darn well that many people do not tell the doctor everything that is wrong, and I think this relates to peoples tolerance of pain, to where they tolerate it enough to not worry about it. Until it does become a burden and they can't tolerate it any longer, go to the hospital to find out they should've just went in when they noticed the first sign of pain, now they have a bad infection to the point of having to chop off a toe. So how can we say people are completely healthy when people don't even tell their doctor everything, and the doctors can't read minds or sense your pain for you?
Diets themselves don't even work for everyone, and this is because the body is different. Us native people can't eat or drink certain things, as our bodies are not developed for that consumption of foods such as Cow Milk. We likely used Goat Milk or Milk derived from plants such as nuts. But yet, the "health system" says it's required to drink Cow Milk as it provides Vitamin D. Which we got from the sun, and in our other foods that may also have had Vitamin D.
You could argue that it's Astonishing how people will not give up foods for the protection of others, such as not giving them diabetes, heart issues, or many of these bodily harmful foods you serve that can cause bodily harm in the long run.
There's only so much a human can do to protect themselves, while also living freely. It's a conundrum that has been dealt with throughout history, when the people want protection yet want freedoms.
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Stop capitalizing "Astonishing". It's hard enough to follow you line of thought without having to recollect a sub-par concept album.
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Stop capitalizing "Astonishing". It's hard enough to follow you line of thought without having to recollect a sub-par concept album.
:lol
It's so good, it deserves to be mentioned anywhere.
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Stop capitalizing "Astonishing". It's hard enough to follow you line of thought without having to recollect a sub-par concept album.
:lol
It's so good, it deserves to be mentioned anywhere.
Yet another area where we disagree :lol
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Sharks forward Evander Kane suspended 21 games for submitting fake vaccine card.
Did he really think they wouldn't check? Fucking dumbass. At least Washington State football coach was up front and just said fuck off and was released.
Astonishing what people will give up to not give themselves and those closest to them some protection
It's not Astonishing.
I think to most folk, paying $1.7M to NOT be vaccinated is a little astonishing.
I love laugh at the apology of anyone who's only apologetic over their choices/actions because they were caught.
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Sharks forward Evander Kane suspended 21 games for submitting fake vaccine card.
Did he really think they wouldn't check? Fucking dumbass. At least Washington State football coach was up front and just said fuck off and was released.
Astonishing what people will give up to not give themselves and those closest to them some protection
It's not Astonishing.
I think to most folk, paying $1.7M to NOT be vaccinated is a little astonishing.
I love laugh at the apology of anyone who's only apologetic over their choices/actions because they were caught.
You must do a lot of laughing then. Good thing it's good for the soul. :)
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Sharks forward Evander Kane suspended 21 games for submitting fake vaccine card.
Did he really think they wouldn't check? Fucking dumbass. At least Washington State football coach was up front and just said fuck off and was released.
Astonishing what people will give up to not give themselves and those closest to them some protection
It's not Astonishing.
I think to most folk, paying $1.7M to NOT be vaccinated is a little astonishing.
I love laugh at the apology of anyone who's only apologetic over their choices/actions because they were caught.
You can change that $1.7M to $1k and I'd still feel the same. Thats why I a lot of localities had some success paying people some money to get the shots.
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Sharks forward Evander Kane suspended 21 games for submitting fake vaccine card.
Did he really think they wouldn't check? Fucking dumbass. At least Washington State football coach was up front and just said fuck off and was released.
Astonishing what people will give up to not give themselves and those closest to them some protection
It's not Astonishing.
I think to most folk, paying $1.7M to NOT be vaccinated is a little astonishing.
I love laugh at the apology of anyone who's only apologetic over their choices/actions because they were caught.
You can change that $1.7M to $1k and I'd still feel the same. Thats why I a lot of localities had some success paying people some money to get the shots.
The Wash St. football coach was the highest paid employee of the state of Washington. He walked away from 3 million, along with four of his assistant coaches. The only thing that pisses me off is why this couldn't have happened two weeks ago before Cal played them. :gobears:
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When my mother got vaccinated she was entered into a lottery in the state of Missouri that was encouraging folks to get vaccinated. She just called and told me she won the $10k prize! :omg:
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Wow that's awesome! :)
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When my mother got vaccinated she was entered into a lottery in the state of Missouri that was encouraging folks to get vaccinated. She just called and told me she won the $10k prize! :omg:
Shut the hell up!!!! That's so frikkin awesome!!
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When my mother got vaccinated she was entered into a lottery in the state of Missouri that was encouraging folks to get vaccinated. She just called and told me she won the $10k prize! :omg:
Shut the hell up!!!! That's so frikkin awesome!!
I know…..it’s so good for her and her husband (not my dad) because they need to replace their roof and insurance is jacking them around. So….it couldn’t have come at a better time for them.
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Nice! I mean, it's kind of a shame states felt they had to do that to encourage people to do it in the first place. But nice that the $$ is going to someone who can really use it.
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When my mother got vaccinated she was entered into a lottery in the state of Missouri that was encouraging folks to get vaccinated. She just called and told me she won the $10k prize! :omg:
Wow, that's amazing!! :tup :tup
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Gary's mom:
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F543.gif&hash=955f779f269adc12ed156b3e5e1694cd66d1d0e7)
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That IS pretty cool.
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When my mother got vaccinated she was entered into a lottery in the state of Missouri that was encouraging folks to get vaccinated. She just called and told me she won the $10k prize! :omg:
Congrats
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When my mother got vaccinated she was entered into a lottery in the state of Missouri that was encouraging folks to get vaccinated. She just called and told me she won the $10k prize! :omg:
Sweet!
They had a similar program here in NC. For adults, it was a large cash prize (I forget what the amount was). For kids in the 12-17 range, it was a scholarship.
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I'll take credit for bringing up the cash incentive just before this happened :lol j/k, that is really awesome.
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Scheduled for my booster November 3rd.
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As a J&J recipient, the booster debate is interesting. It appears the FDA will allow mixing and matching and I think anyone who received a J&J will be eligible for a booster (not just older or immunocompromised). I'll wait and see how covid acts before I get a booster. If there's another surge coming, I'll probably get one (not sure which though) to just make sure I'm good. Got a lot of traveling coming up too so I don't want to get sick while away either. I'm on the "wait and see" boat right now for myself.
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I'm also considering the booster. I was waiting to see if cases went significantly down by the end of October but it seems we are still hovering around the same as the beginning (at least in my area). I'll make a decision at some point before the end of the month.
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It's probably a me thing but I cannot get on board with referring to getting your vax shot as getting "the jab".
Get the jab. Did you get the jab? WTF??
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It's probably a me thing but I cannot get on board with referring to getting your vax shot as getting "the jab".
Get the jab. Did you get the jab? WTF??
Fauci Ouchie?
Hopefully getting mine tomorrow. Israel requires them or 2nd shot less than 6 months ago to get in and mine was 6 months and 10 days from when I’m going.
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Fauci Ouchie?
Did Fauci coin the term?
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Well, it has finally happened. I have inadvertently been exposed to Covid by a "friend" of my husband's. This so-called friend met him for lunch yesterday and didn't bother to mention he and his wife had been sick. [All in the scenario are fully vaccinated.] Then both the wife and he tested positive today.
We plan to get tested in a few days as it is too early right now. I am so pissed off at this "friend" that I have a mind to call him on the phone and let him know just how much his lack of transparency has thrown a monkey wrench into my life. We are in the middle of a remodeling project and our contractor has a limited window in which to work his magic. Now all the folks coming this week to give us bids have to be pushed back to next week. So far, our contractor is being very understanding but this could potentially push our entire remodel job to summer if we wind up testing positive ourselves or worse, getting sick.
Yeah, yeah, yeah - first world problems. I get all that. But bloody fucking hell some people are just *inconsiderate assholes. :censored
*moral of the story, don't be like him. If you or someone in your family have symptoms, please don't exposure others because you'd rather just have lunch with a "friend."
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Instead of saying I'm sick let's postpone, most try to talk themselves into thinking it's just a cold and are afraid to admit it might be more.
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It's probably a me thing but I cannot get on board with referring to getting your vax shot as getting "the jab".
Get the jab. Did you get the jab? WTF??
I'm with you; I generally dislike that sort of shorthand anyway, but here it just seems worse.
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It's probably a me thing but I cannot get on board with referring to getting your vax shot as getting "the jab".
Get the jab. Did you get the jab? WTF??
I'm with you; I generally dislike that sort of shorthand anyway, but here it just seems worse.
Me too! I always say that I was administered the appropriate dosage of the BNT162b2 Pfizer-BioNTech Caronavirus19 Vaccine through an intramuscular injection. Anything less is just lazy, I say!
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It's probably a me thing but I cannot get on board with referring to getting your vax shot as getting "the jab".
Get the jab. Did you get the jab? WTF??
I'm with you; I generally dislike that sort of shorthand anyway, but here it just seems worse.
Me too! I always say that I was administered the appropriate dosage of the BNT162b2 Pfizer-BioNTech Caronavirus19 Vaccine through an intramuscular injection. Anything less is just lazy, I say!
Exactly. See, I'm rubbing off on you. :)
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It's probably a me thing but I cannot get on board with referring to getting your vax shot as getting "the jab".
Get the jab. Did you get the jab? WTF??
I'm with you; I generally dislike that sort of shorthand anyway, but here it just seems worse.
Me too! I always say that I was administered the appropriate dosage of the BNT162b2 Pfizer-BioNTech Caronavirus19 Vaccine through an intramuscular injection. Anything less is just lazy, I say!
Exactly. See, I'm rubbing off on you. :)
Well, stop! It's illegal in New York without consent. I assume Connecticut too!
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Interesting scenario going down here that should spur some discussion...
So SF and the majority of the San Francisco area counties have vaccine requirements for entry into certain businesses, including restaurants. The In-N-Out in SF basically said fuck that, we're not the vaccine police and just closed indoor service. Other local In-N-Outs followed suit, including the one local to me. Now...the one local to me started letting people in without checking their vax status, and the county shut them down.
My take...if the county is requiring already strained restaurants to staff for vaccine checking, a full time job, they should be covering the cost of it as well. Labor is a massive part of the restaurant bottom line, and they are strained in staffing as is. We have one of the best vax rates in the country at the moment, I think it's time to let loose a bit.
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Same requirements here in Ontario. What a lot of restuarants (both sit-down, and fast food - including chains) have done is simply kept things as take-out only. There are no vac-checking requirements for pickup, so a TON of restaurants just roped/taped off their seating areas.
Though it's kinda fucking stupid ... this government put these requirements into effect at the end of September, JUST released the official app/QR code 10 days ago, and has ALREADY announced that these requirements will be lifted* sometime towards the end of January - I can't remember if there was an actual date given. I don't necessarily have a problem with that plan, just don't fucking announce it. Now, the anti-vac crowd knows they just need to hold out for about 12 weeks.
* - assuming cases/hospitalizations/ICU admissions remain at current levels.
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Interesting scenario going down here that should spur some discussion...
So SF and the majority of the San Francisco area counties have vaccine requirements for entry into certain businesses, including restaurants. The In-N-Out in SF basically said fuck that, we're not the vaccine police and just closed indoor service. Other local In-N-Outs followed suit, including the one local to me. Now...the one local to me started letting people in without checking their vax status, and the county shut them down.
My take...if the county is requiring already strained restaurants to staff for vaccine checking, a full time job, they should be covering the cost of it as well. Labor is a massive part of the restaurant bottom line, and they are strained in staffing as is. We have one of the best vax rates in the country at the moment, I think it's time to let loose a bit.
I agree with you conceptually - the mandate is an unnecessary expense imposed on businesses, where the free market will take care of itself (businesses will decide if they want to be vaxx police or not, and consumers will decide if they want to give money to those businesses or not). But - and I recognize you're not asking for this, just saying that it's something they should consider - I don't agree that the answer is for government to pay. Government is NOT the answer to everything. Let it play out. Just put the note on the door - "No lobby service without a mask AND vaccine" - and most people that don't comply will go elsewhere. Sure, some will sneak through, because they're dicks and humans are, at times, dicks. But the odds have just increased significantly, and everyone benefits. We need not burden an already overburdened (financially) infrastructure to do what will ultimately happen anyway.
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Interesting scenario going down here that should spur some discussion...
So SF and the majority of the San Francisco area counties have vaccine requirements for entry into certain businesses, including restaurants. The In-N-Out in SF basically said fuck that, we're not the vaccine police and just closed indoor service. Other local In-N-Outs followed suit, including the one local to me. Now...the one local to me started letting people in without checking their vax status, and the county shut them down.
My take...if the county is requiring already strained restaurants to staff for vaccine checking, a full time job, they should be covering the cost of it as well. Labor is a massive part of the restaurant bottom line, and they are strained in staffing as is. We have one of the best vax rates in the country at the moment, I think it's time to let loose a bit.
I agree with you conceptually - the mandate is an unnecessary expense imposed on businesses, where the free market will take care of itself (businesses will decide if they want to be vaxx police or not, and consumers will decide if they want to give money to those businesses or not). But - and I recognize you're not asking for this, just saying that it's something they should consider - I don't agree that the answer is for government to pay. Government is NOT the answer to everything. Let it play out. Just put the note on the door - "No lobby service without a mask AND vaccine" - and most people that don't comply will go elsewhere. Sure, some will sneak through, because they're dicks and humans are, at times, dicks. But the odds have just increased significantly, and everyone benefits. We need not burden an already overburdened (financially) infrastructure to do what will ultimately happen anyway.
I totally agree, but I think as the local mandates are written, that isn't how it works. Customers have to show proof of vaccination, not that they must be vaccinated, so the onus falls on the restaurant, not the customer. That's some bullshit personally, and even worse, it's fellow customers that ratted In-N-Out out.
Pleasant Hill is closed, San Francisco and San Ramon have received fines.
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IMO, these mandates should start to fade away as the cases drop and can be re-instituted if the cases go back up. CA has one of the highest vax rates and currently one of the lowest infections per capita. The government should ease up at this point.
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Getting my Moderna booster this evening. My work only has one of our hospitals providing that one and it is over 60 miles from me. Going to my pharmacy instead.
Looking forward to the enhanced 5G.
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Got my Pfizer booster on Saturday, girlfriend got hers (mix and match) Sunday. She was fine. Mild arm ache and some sleepiness. I was laid out for a few days. I'm better today but god damn that was not fun.
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I got super sick with my shots. My arm is already ridiculously painful and I can feel the head starting to ache. I'm not looking forward to the next day or 2. The Moderna boost is only a half shot so I better get half the misery I had last time. Somehow, I doubt I'll be so lucky.
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Weird.. I had zero side effects from any of my shots other than the sore arm.
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Me too, and I thought I'd be down and out. Didn't even get a lot of pain in my arm.
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Weird.. I had zero side effects from any of my shots other than the sore arm.
Same here, it seems to be very individual how you react to them. I have coworkers who got pretty sick, especially after the 2nd shot.
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My second shot made me sick for 2 days.
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My second shot made me sick for 2 days.
I felt really fatigued and tired for 2 days after mine.
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I got super sick with my shots. My arm is already ridiculously painful and I can feel the head starting to ache. I'm not looking forward to the next day or 2. The Moderna boost is only a half shot so I better get half the misery I had last time. Somehow, I doubt I'll be so lucky.
From all I've read, it seems to be a fact at this point that the moderna has the worst side effects. I think it's because it's dosage is higher than Pfizer.
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I got super sick with my shots. My arm is already ridiculously painful and I can feel the head starting to ache. I'm not looking forward to the next day or 2. The Moderna boost is only a half shot so I better get half the misery I had last time. Somehow, I doubt I'll be so lucky.
From all I've read, it seems to be a fact at this point that the moderna has the worst side effects. I think it's because it's dosage is higher than Pfizer.
That's what I have seen as well. Saw something recently that the antibody load in a Moderna person was much higher than a Pfizer person and it all had to do with the strength of the shot. Moderna went overboard, which is fine with me.
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I got super sick with my shots. My arm is already ridiculously painful and I can feel the head starting to ache. I'm not looking forward to the next day or 2. The Moderna boost is only a half shot so I better get half the misery I had last time. Somehow, I doubt I'll be so lucky.
From all I've read, it seems to be a fact at this point that the moderna has the worst side effects. I think it's because it's dosage is higher than Pfizer.
That's what I have seen as well. Saw something recently that the antibody load in a Moderna person was much higher than a Pfizer person and it all had to do with the strength of the shot. Moderna went overboard, which is fine with me.
Yeah, I'm with you. I felt bad after the first shot - about a day where I wanted to just sleep - though the second wasn't tto bad. But I'll take it.
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My wife got a booster shot (Moderna) on Friday.
She was down for the count all day yesterday and had all the classic symptoms. She started to feel better late afternoon and she's back to normal today. I don't think I am eligible yet for a booster but we shall see. Yes, we shall see.........
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Had COVID in February, got the J&J shot in March, and got my first Moderna shot about three weeks ago. I'm tryin' to flex against this bitch.
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Yes, we shall see.........
:)
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Yes, we shall see.........
:)
THANK YOU!
For getting this...... :)
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Yes, we shall see.........
:)
THANK YOU!
For getting this...... :)
Brought a smile to my face - which is a plus while browsing the coronavirus thread. :)
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Scheduled for my booster November 3rd.
Mission accomplished.
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Scheduled for my booster November 3rd.
Mission accomplished.
Mine set for 11/13.
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Got my Pfizer booster yesterday, unlike my second dose where I was pretty sick for the next day, I’ve only gotten a slight headache and some dizziness this time.
And my 5G is flowing like you wouldn’t believe.
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I was planning to use a day of PTO on Friday anyway, so I decided to schedule my booster for 6:30 in the morning. I hope it doesn't ruin my day off!
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Booster announcements were made here today. Apparently 70 & older, and some other categories are good now for 3M people. mrs.jingle tells me we fall into the category that will get it in the new year.
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I want one, but I don't see how I fit in.
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I really am not sure I need a booster, but I'm eligible for one (because I got the J&J), and it looks like I now have 4 trips booked (including international travel) and maybe a 5th in the next 5 months (and maybe more from work) and all that has got me thinking I should maybe get the boost just to feel more comfortable and not worry about potentially being stuck in a hotel quarantining feeling terrible. Then the question becomes, which vaccine do I get? If I do the boost, I'm leaning towards pfizer for the mix and match approach.
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I really am not sure I need a booster, but I'm eligible for one (because I got the J&J), and it looks like I now have 4 trips booked (including international travel) and maybe a 5th in the next 5 months (and maybe more from work) and all that has got me thinking I should maybe get the boost just to feel more comfortable and not worry about potentially being stuck in a hotel quarantining feeling terrible. Then the question becomes, which vaccine do I get? If I do the boost, I'm leaning towards pfizer for the mix and match approach.
In your case, Pfizer is probably the better choice. Since the initial Moderna doses were so strong, the booster is only half a shot where Pfizer is a full one.
My Moderna booster experience was barely anything. Really sore arm and a slight headache. By the next day I was fine. The initial shots were another story altogether.
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Scheduled for my booster November 3rd.
Mission accomplished.
...and I officially feel like shit.
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Scheduled for my booster November 3rd.
Mission accomplished.
...and I officially feel like shit.
I scheduled mine on a Friday to ruin my weekend. :lol
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Scheduled for my booster November 3rd.
Mission accomplished.
...and I officially feel like shit.
I scheduled mine on a Friday to ruin my weekend. :lol
My brother is here for a visit. Should be great lol
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That spells danger. :lol
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That spells danger. :lol
I prescribe cigars.
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That spells danger. :lol
I'm glad you can recognize that though! Big improvement.
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I'm unclear on if/when I am eligible for a booster. Got my initial jabs in April but I'm relatively young, no pre-existing conditions etc. So while I fit in the timeframe I do not think I fit otherwise. Got Pfizer first time, unsure what I will get for booster. Got off easy with side effects first time(s) around, just a really sore arm for a day and a half or so.
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I'm unclear on if/when I am eligible for a booster. Got my initial jabs in April but I'm relatively young, no pre-existing conditions etc. So while I fit in the timeframe I do not think I fit otherwise. Got Pfizer first time, unsure what I will get for booster. Got off easy with side effects first time(s) around, just a really sore arm for a day and a half or so.
I am not 100% sure I qualified but I see some clients in person so I considered that good enough since my job then has higher risk. When I went (and my girlfriend, and we went to different places) they made me click on a form but said I didn’t have to tell them anything.
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I'm unclear on if/when I am eligible for a booster. Got my initial jabs in April but I'm relatively young, no pre-existing conditions etc. So while I fit in the timeframe I do not think I fit otherwise. Got Pfizer first time, unsure what I will get for booster. Got off easy with side effects first time(s) around, just a really sore arm for a day and a half or so.
This is similar to me. I got my jab in April because I work for the Utility company. At the time, the questionnaire said "What kind of company do you work for?" and I checked the box that said "utility". There was disagreement amongst my coworkers as whether we in corporate should really be checking that box, but I went for it as it seemed pretty self explanatory and it appeared the state were rolling the vax out by industry rather than any more specific criteria.
Now the same form has changed the question to be less focused on what your general industry is, and more focused on what your actual work entails. So I didn't check the box this time. Not sure when it'll be available to me now, but hopefully it would be before the holidays.
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Isn't the only requirement right now that it needs to have been 6 months since your first two doses?
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In CA, there are also age and other restrictions.
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Ahhh. I didn't realize there were still limitations by state. I thought the booster was a go for everyone pending the time since your original jab(s). The conversation leading to this makes way more sense now.
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My understanding is:
For Moderna/Pfizer: Shots over 6 months ago and either over 65 or have comorbitities
For J&J: Anyone who got the shot over 4 months ago
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Here, for Pfizer or Moderna, we need to be outside of 6 months from second dose and be in one of the following groups:
-Are 65 or older, or
-Age 18+ who live in long-term care settings, or
-Age 18+ who have underlying medical conditions, or
-Age 18+ who are at increased risk due to social inequity, or
-Age 18+ who work or live in high-risk settings
For J&J, you have to be 2 months from initial vax and be 18+.
The Dept. of Public Health is silent about mixing. But their guidance has been less than clear throughout this entire process, so...
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That spells danger. :lol
I prescribe cigars.
That will distract you two.
That spells danger. :lol
I'm glad you can recognize that though! Big improvement.
Through experience my friend. :lol
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My understanding is:
For Moderna/Pfizer: Shots over 6 months ago and either over 65 or have comorbitities
For J&J: Anyone who got the shot over 4 months ago
That's how it is in Connecticut, so apparently it's a national set of parameters. I know that I am more than willing to be generous in my assessment of my situation - when I got my first shot, I signed up before I was eligible, but only took an appointment after the date I became eligible, if that makes sense - but I don't see how I qualify at this point. I'm more than 6 months out, but that's it. I suppose by BMI I am obese, but that isn't probably enough.
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Here, for Pfizer or Moderna, we need to be outside of 6 months from second dose and be in one of the following groups:
-Are 65 or older, or
-Age 18+ who live in long-term care settings, or
-Age 18+ who have underlying medical conditions, or
-Age 18+ who are at increased risk due to social inequity, or
-Age 18+ who work or live in high-risk settings
For J&J, you have to be 2 months from initial vax and be 18+.
The Dept. of Public Health is silent about mixing. But their guidance has been less than clear throughout this entire process, so...
HAHA, I read that quickly as "-Age 18+ who are at increased risk due to social inactivity, or" and thought, "I'm socially inactive!" :)
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My understanding is:
For Moderna/Pfizer: Shots over 6 months ago and either over 65 or have comorbitities
For J&J: Anyone who got the shot over 4 months ago
That's how it is in Connecticut, so apparently it's a national set of parameters. I know that I am more than willing to be generous in my assessment of my situation - when I got my first shot, I signed up before I was eligible, but only took an appointment after the date I became eligible, if that makes sense - but I don't see how I qualify at this point. I'm more than 6 months out, but that's it. I suppose by BMI I am obese, but that isn't probably enough.
I think Bosk's post after mine is more legit and gives you more leeway for a reason to get one. Since others have already kind of hinted at it and demand is not that high, I'm sure you can get one no questions asked.
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My understanding is:
For Moderna/Pfizer: Shots over 6 months ago and either over 65 or have comorbitities
For J&J: Anyone who got the shot over 4 months ago
That's how it is in Connecticut, so apparently it's a national set of parameters. I know that I am more than willing to be generous in my assessment of my situation - when I got my first shot, I signed up before I was eligible, but only took an appointment after the date I became eligible, if that makes sense - but I don't see how I qualify at this point. I'm more than 6 months out, but that's it. I suppose by BMI I am obese, but that isn't probably enough.
6 months should be all you need though, no? My GF got hers last week. She's not 65 and has no underlying health problems.
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I guess I'm wrong?
https://hartfordhealthcare.org/health-wellness/covid-vaccine/covid-vaccine-booster
I don't know how the people I know are getting boosters then.
I'm going to go to my appointment anyways and see what happens. Technically, I check the "Work in a high-risk environment (such as a hospital or grocery store)" checkbox thanks to my catering gig on Sundays. Maybe I can leverage that.
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I may try then. I'm going to wait to the week before the week before Thanksgiving, since I'm off that entire week.
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I ninja'd you. See previous post.
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I guess I'm wrong?
https://hartfordhealthcare.org/health-wellness/covid-vaccine/covid-vaccine-booster
I don't know how the people I know are getting boosters then.
I'm going to go to my appointment anyways and see what happens. Technically, I check the "Work in a high-risk environment (such as a hospital or grocery store)" checkbox thanks to my catering gig on Sundays. Maybe I can leverage that.
Pretty sure, that will be enough to get you through.
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I don't know how the people I know are getting boosters then.
I would guess simply because they aren't being very strict about it and mostly aren't even asking (or at least, aren't verifying the answers even if they are asking). I would guess that I could probably walk into a place and get mine done here if I really wanted to for similar reasons. I probably will soon, but not in a rush.
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I don't know how the people I know are getting boosters then.
I would guess simply because they aren't being very strict about it and mostly aren't even asking (or at least, aren't verifying the answers even if they are asking). I would guess that I could probably walk into a place and get mine done here if I really wanted to for similar reasons. I probably will soon, but not in a rush.
Yeah, when I got mine they just asked if I qualified, didn't even have to sign anything.
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It seems the first round of shots wasn't too different, I don't recall it being anything other than an honor system. But this time around, there really isn't the downside of feeling like your taking a shot from someone else. Demand just isn't there. I would, personally, say if you want a booster and your last shot has been far enough out (I think this is the only important parameter because if it's too soon, it may negate the point of doing this in the first place) then go for it and don't feel like you are doing anything wrong.
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It seemed to me that providers and pharmacists would rather give shots to people that want them, rather than turn people away because of an arbitrary age restriction.
When I got my first shot, I was 12 days ahead of the date when I was "allowed" to get one per the state government. Nobody cared. I checked a box that said I was high risk, but wasn't asked to specify why. I felt like I was committing a felony though. :lol
I'll probably do the same with a booster soon, as I just passed my six month mark from my second shot.
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So..Masks...
1. In the city of Boston, in public places you must be masked regardless of vaccination status. So when you go to the Garden, you're supposed to be masked. Apparently that doesn't apply to the three guys doing the pregame show inside the Garden two feet away from each other, nor the PxP and color guy seated shoulder to shoulder.
2. My wife works in an assisted living facility where..its OK to sit in the cafe unmasked for however long and have a snack or lunch, and then you and your party can go to the dining room and sit there for an hour+ unmasked....but you better put your mask on in the hallway while going to the cafe to the dining room because you might actually walk by another person.
3. Last year, Boston had a mask mandate, even outside, so when you watched the news, the on the street reporter, standing all by themself on a street corner had a mask on, but when they cut back to the studio, the two anchors, inside, at the same desk, had no mask on.
Now, I am NOT an anti-masker. I hate wearing one, but I will if I go into a store and there's a sign to put one on.
I realize we find out more about the virus, vaccines, masks as we go, but does any of the above make any sense?
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Here, for Pfizer or Moderna, we need to be outside of 6 months from second dose and be in one of the following groups
-Age 18+ who are at increased risk due to social inequity, or
What?
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Here, for Pfizer or Moderna, we need to be outside of 6 months from second dose and be in one of the following groups
-Age 18+ who are at increased risk due to social inequity, or
What?
Exactly.
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I get my Moderna booster shot today at 4:00. A friend of mine told me to go the CVS or (in my case) HyVee and fill out the form and tell them you are high risk because they do not check or confirm your risk status.
But I called our local county health center and I do qualify because of my hypertension. I really believe they are playing loose with the guidelines because there is a lot of vaccines going to waste.
If you want and are eligible (more than 6 months with Phizer and Moderna) for a booster shot, I suggest you just sign at your local pharmacy or grocery store.
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I know Cram mentioned he got the J&J vaccine. After seeing this published study that was done with Veterans, you probably want a booster.
By the end of September, Moderna’s two-dose COVID-19 vaccine, measured as 89% effective in March, was only 58% effective.
The effectiveness of shots made by Pfizer and BioNTech vaccine, which also employed two doses, fell from 87% to 45% in the same period.
And most strikingly, the protective power of Johnson & Johnson's single-dose vaccine plunged from 86% to just 13% over those six months.
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Yeah, I remember hearing something along those lines. J&J vac'd folks really should get that booster.
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I will probably get one before Thanksgiving. I haven't seen any data that shows it's effectiveness wanes that much though as the above example. Of the handful of people I know who got J&J, none so far have had breakthrough cases (including my parents in Florida who live like covid doesn't exist) and myself who has gone to 25 concerts now maskless.
My point, I know I've been exposed to covid from my neices who were sick with it and I didn't get sick. Also I have not gotten sick from being exposed to at least 100k people combined from all those concerts. I'm thinking I don't "need" the booster to be honest. But it will put some ease on me when I travel because I just don't even want to catch a mild infection and be stuck in limbo.
Having said that, I should have gotten the boost this week and let it slide. I'm heading to Atlanta tomorrow and Metallica's concert doesn't require any vaccination or negative test to enter sooooo let's see what happens. (that should be another 50k or so people exposed). But I think I want to get the boost for sure before I go to Florida to see my parents for Thanksgiving and definitely before my 15 day trip to Europe in December.
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Having said that, I should have gotten the boost this week and let it slide. I'm heading to Atlanta tomorrow and Metallica's concert doesn't require any vaccination or negative test to enter sooooo let's see what happens.
My daughter's school (and other things I've read, like health department contact tracing) considers exposure to be 15 minutes in the immediate vicinity of a covid-positive individual.
I saw a small concert in August and it was like walking through a restaurant. Pass one person here, stand next a few people there. So my exposure, despite having 150 people in the room, was fairly minimal. I was in the direct vicinity of a handful of people, but some dude in the back that coughs into the air, may not infect me being 30 feet away, even if we were both in the same concert hall for 2 hours.
So I'd think your actual exposure in terms of numbers of people at shows, would be less. Maybe you're actually close to and interacting with 50-100 people throughout the night.
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Sold out 20k concerts like Maroon 5 and Dave Matthews on the lawn means I'm spending significant amount of time without any distance from people. Also mosh pits and what not for the metal/punk shows Ive attended. There's very little examples of me having my own space at concerts because I like to get involved. I also chat with people. Now that I think of it, Guns N Roses was like the only concert where no one was sitting near me. But then again I sat on packed trains to get there (albeit masks are required on public transportation).
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That's cool - I wasn't sure what your interactions/exposure was like. It just seemed like saying "50,000 capacity = 50,000 person exposure" may not be fully accurate, as you might not be close to every single person during the night.
I tend to believe in my vaccine as you do, and I'm trusting it to do the job. Though I am a bit more selective with my behavior, since I don't want to bring covid home to my unvaccinated kids.
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I try to be conscientious, but I'm not perfect. I've flown to Florida, and when I was there I wasn't isolated or quarantined. I lived my life, including going to some of the bars near the shore. I can't for the life of me believe I haven't been exposed to it in some form or fashion. I too know of no one personally that got a breakthrough case (that's not to imply that I don't believe it happens; it does). I will get the booster too, to be safe, but I'm waiting until right before T-Giving, when I will be home and (except for my wife) alone.
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That's cool - I wasn't sure what your interactions/exposure was like. It just seemed like saying "50,000 capacity = 50,000 person exposure" may not be fully accurate, as you might not be close to every single person during the night.
I tend to believe in my vaccine as you do, and I'm trusting it to do the job. Though I am a bit more selective with my behavior, since I don't want to bring covid home to my unvaccinated kids.
Yeah, I live alone so I don't really have that worry about bringing something home. And if I added the capacity of all those shows, it would be way over 100k as well. I mean I was on a packed floor for Bad Religion, about 5k attendance total indoors. Could barely move. I didn't have exposure to 5k people, but it would definitely be significant.
Actually I know of one breakthrough case but he got pfizer. His symptoms were just a cold but he did loose sense of taste/smell. It also doesn't seem like he spread it to anyone (including his wife and two children) so I'd say the vaccine likely still performed well.
I should add, NJ/NYC area is an area of the US with not only high vaccination rate, but high infection rate so the immunity in this area is likely pretty strong. The more I think of it, the more I feel like I should have gotten that boost on Monday because I really am not sure the general immunity of Atlanta will be near as strong as it is here, plus there's not any requirements to attend this concert at Mercedes Benz Stadium. I could get it today, but then I risk feeling like crap all day tomorrow and I don't want that.
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Everyone I know that received the Pfizer shot had very few side effects. Shot 1 was just like a flu shot, with no side effect. Shot 2 gave my wife and I some tired-ness, but that's all. She just got her 3rd shot and she had a big headache and some nausea overnight, but no fever. I'm not sure how receiving Pfizer shot #1 on top of a J&J shot would work when it comes to side effects.
On a side note, my daughter had yet another bad cold/respiratory virus last week. 100 to 102 degree fever, some vomiting in the morning (just due to the fever and maybe swallowing a lot of mucus). It really knocked her on her butt for about 4-5 days. We kept her home from school for one day and the school nurse once again requested a covid test to rule it out. She had a strep test too and said she preferred that to the covid test, even though it made her gag. Thankfully the had the weekend to get over the fever.
I'm glad that the school is very proactive and on top of child illness, but I'm so damn tired of having to get her covid tests every single time we keep her home from school.
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Booster update - other than a sore arm I have not had any adverse reaction to the Moderna booster. :metal (deep sigh of relief)
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Snipping this from my post in P/R:
Went and got a booster yesterday - marked the "high risk" box due to my job. I do take public transportation weekly and am around more people in the city. Pfizer just asked the FDA to allow all 18+ individuals to get boosters and Chicago's top doctor said that they won't turn any 18+ person away if they want a booster. My arm is sore again and last night I got fairly tired and felt a bit out of it. Other than that, no side effects.
Oh - and my 6 year old daughter got her first shot on Saturday! The day they approved the kids' vaccine, I signed her up on the pediatrician's portal page. They called a couple of days later and ended up having a cancellation for the next day. We took it - she was SO excited to get her covid shot. I told her that I was proud of her for making the decision on her own (she said that she wants to be protected).
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Winter arrived here and the situation is once again turning bad (The Netherlands).
Both the Jansen and Astrazenica groups are apparently at quite the risk of Delta still and the average age of the non-vaccinated hospitalised people has gone down to 59 years. And the elderly (and immuno compromised people) do really need that booster, it seems. I sincererly hope they will start giving boosters asap and get the plan to vaccinate children greenlit soon. Because as is I feel we are once again running well behind the facts, which is super frustrating.
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Received my Pfizer booster Monday. I can finally raise my arm up with no pain. I am still experiencing the occasional slight chill, some slight sweats, and a slight fatigue today after sleeping about 12-16 hours total yesterday. But I am 'old'. And we're experiencing a Maryland November, where it hits the mid70s one day, then low 50s the next.
My older best friend suffered severe chills his first night, then was OK. His wife never experienced extreme discomfort, but it took her days to finally feel 'good'.
I just figured that the more I felt like crap now, the more effective it is.
Next up is my second shingles shot in mid December. The first one was a real :censored :censored
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https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1458898859242012675?s=20
It isn't very often that I agree with Gene fucking Simmons, of all people, but it has been a weird couple of years, eh? ;)
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DragonAttack, got my 1ST shingles shot with my flu shot. The shingles shot arm really hurt for 2 days compared to the flu shot.
My booster shot is tomorrow after work.
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My wife and sons get their booster tomorrow evening.
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I hope it doesn't affect me so I can see my nephew play on the Garden ice Saturday.
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Good luck with the shots, fellas, for realz. :tup :tup
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I hope it doesn't affect me so I can see my nephew play on the Garden ice Saturday.
You'll be there. If you have to play hurt, so be it!
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I hope it doesn't affect me so I can see my nephew play on the Garden ice Saturday.
You'll be there. If you have to play hurt, so be it!
If they do a temp check is my worry.
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I hope it doesn't affect me so I can see my nephew play on the Garden ice Saturday.
You'll be there. If you have to play hurt, so be it!
If they do a temp check is my worry.
Bring the cowbell just in case.
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I hope it doesn't affect me so I can see my nephew play on the Garden ice Saturday.
You'll be there. If you have to play hurt, so be it!
If they do a temp check is my worry.
Oh gotcha!
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I hope it doesn't affect me so I can see my nephew play on the Garden ice Saturday.
You'll be there. If you have to play hurt, so be it!
If they do a temp check is my worry.
I'd bring the vaccine card or a photo of it - if you have a slight temp, you can show them the card that confirms that you are vaccinated and received a booster just prior to going.
You could also call the venue and talk to someone about how strict their rules are for fevers - would they let you in if you can show that the fever is from the booster shot that you received a day prior to the event?
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Massachusetts, well, Boston is very strict so I'm not sure.
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Massachusetts, well, Boston is very strict so I'm not sure.
Pop some Advil starting Saturday morning. That helped control my feverish symptoms with my two doses.
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No can do. I'm on blood thinners. I can take acetaminophen. (Tylenol)
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No can do. I'm on blood thinners. I can take acetaminophen. (Tylenol)
Ok, that then.
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WHISKEY
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(https://c.tenor.com/RKQ4v7FGpugAAAAC/hotrod-whiskey.gif)
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WHISKEY
Too bad Lisa is getting her eyes checked that morning. This would work. LOL
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I hope it doesn't affect me so I can see my nephew play on the Garden ice Saturday.
You'll be there. If you have to play hurt, so be it!
If they do a temp check is my worry.
Bring the cowbell just in case.
I was thinking the same thing! :) :) :)
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@Chad..
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/sen-josee-forest-niesing-56-dies-after-battling-covid-19-and-autoimmune-condition-1.5674665
Have they said what her autoimmune condition was? Does it have a name?
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No idea. This never made much news use here. Senators in Canada are not the same as US Senators. I honestly don’t know what function they form in our government system.
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No idea. This never made much news use here. Senators in Canada are not the same as US Senators. I honestly don’t know what function they form in our government system.
Oh OK. She's from Ontario, so I thought you might be familiar with the story. I ask because my wife has an autoimmune disease that also affects her lungs.
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No idea. This never made much news use here. Senators in Canada are not the same as US Senators. I honestly don’t know what function they form in our government system.
Oh OK. She's from Ontario, so I thought you might be familiar with the story. I ask because my wife has an autoimmune disease that also affects her lungs.
Sorry man. Wish I was of more help.
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I’ll watch the news tonight and see if there’s any mention of it.
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Cool! :tup
I read the official statement, but they didn't mention anything specific.
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New variant has emerged in southern Africa, and unfortunately it looks like a lot of us may get to know this one. It'll probably be called Nu which is the next free letter in the Greek alphabet.
(cue nu metal vs. nu Covid jokes)
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Yeah... did a bit of reading on this earlier. You know it's potentially real bad when the stock markets take it in the pills.
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Infections have been trending up exponentially again in certain areas, it seems the next wave is already upon us and as far as I know, it's not due to this new strain (yet). No one knows if the new variant is any worse than the previous, but this winter is going to put some areas to the test for sure.
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WHO officially calling this one "Omicron"
And I'm hoping the increase in cases is JUST because of the change of seasons, and not because this variant is already in North America. Ontario daily cases have gone up almost 50% in the past 2 weeks. We'd been hovering between 400-600 since the summer, and surpassed 900 today.
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DT should've toured the original dates, because I'd be shocked if the new ones actually happen.
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Travel Ban imposed!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/us-to-restrict-travel-from-south-africa-7-other-countries-as-new-covid-variant-emerges/ar-AARaWOv
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Canada enacted one as well.
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The confirmed omicron case in Belgium had no connection to southern Africa, they had instead travelled in Egypt and Turkey. This can only mean we're already a step or two behind thinking that banning flights from there is going to slow it down.
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Both pfizer and Moderna announced they can have their boosters ready for omicron in a few months should it prove resistant the current one.
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All I can think of when I hear omnicron.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LX8xCWgT/Lurr.png) (https://postimg.cc/06hGrcfM)
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Both pfizer and Moderna announced they can have their boosters ready for omicron in a few months should it prove resistant the current one.
I'd read that it'll take a couple of weeks to determine if the current vaccines are less effective against this strain, and if so, then about 6 weeks for the current vax's to be modified, produced, and distributed. So, in a sense, you're right ... *IF* Omicron is a stronger variant against the current vax's.
South Africa is only 25%ish vax'd, so I'm hoping that part of the rapid spread is because of that.
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All I can think of when I hear omnicron.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LX8xCWgT/Lurr.png) (https://postimg.cc/06hGrcfM)
The Futurama meme group pages on Facebook are having a ball with this...
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I should have know. Lol
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Omicron is in Canada. That didn't take long.
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/two-cases-omicron-variant-detected-canada-govt-says-2021-11-28/
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Omicron is in Canada. That didn't take long.
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/two-cases-omicron-variant-detected-canada-govt-says-2021-11-28/
Well guaranteed it's in the states then. Gear up for another round of restrictions and even more intensified resistance.
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Mrs Dude and I got our boosters the day before TG. Step son is getting his next week.
It's weird. I feel pretty safe going out these days, but I'm still extra careful. (hand washing, sanitize after touching things or going anywhere, wear a mask when in public...etc...etc) But to tell you the truth, big crowds are still not something I'm 100% comfortable with. And it's not *entirely* because of COVID. As I enter my 50s, big huge gatherings of hundreds (or thousands) of people was starting to be a huge pain in the butt even before the plague hit. Now it just seems like that one final straw that kinda pushed me over the line of "nah, not worth it"
Still want to see DT in Feb in the northwest...but as someone in that thread hinted, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it gets cancelled again if omicron cases spike.
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I just realized that my son is due for his booster. Just turned 18 in Sept and he just passed 6 month's since his 2nd shot. Going to be getting him in within the next week.
CDC cleared anyone 18 and over for a booster as of 11/19 so no need to worry about qualifications.
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As I enter my 50s, big huge gatherings of hundreds (or thousands) of people was starting to be a huge pain in the butt even before the plague hit.
It's not so much being there, as it is getting there. Boston is pretty easy to get in and out of, but if I lived outside of Chicago, I'd dread going into the city to see a show. The TACs visited there in 2010 and traffic was a nightmare.
I live like 2 or 3 towns over from Foxboro, and I mentioned to my wife that the Patriots were home. Said replied that it must be crazy near there. And it is. Even if I had free tickets, I'm not sure it'd be worth the hassle.
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Shopping game day is terrible. Going to the game is OK if you know to get there early, park close and hit RT 1 early.
Boston at night is better than going to work in Boston early. I don't envy anyone who does that.
The new variant doesn't sound that strong. I just wonder if it's easily spreadable.
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The new variant doesn't sound that strong. I just wonder if it's easily spreadable.
A lot of unknowns at the moment. But given how rapid cases increase in SA (250% over 2 weeks, it seems it’s a more rapid spreader.
Now, how much does it make people sick\hospitalized\fatal is the TBD part. I think the fear is because there are 30+ mutations in the spike proteins ... which is how the vaccines attack the virus.
Time will tell. In the meantime, better safe than sorry - I’m glad governments are reacting swiftly with travel restrictions.
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A milder variant that is more contagious may have a positive effect overall, if it overtakes Delta and leads to immunity against harsher variants. Delta has turned out to be quite disastrous here, we are once again in lockdowns.
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The new variant doesn't sound that strong. I just wonder if it's easily spreadable.
A lot of unknowns at the moment. But given how rapid cases increase in SA (250% over 2 weeks, it seems it’s a more rapid spreader.
Now, how much does it make people sick\hospitalized\fatal is the TBD part. I think the fear is because there are 30+ mutations in the spike proteins ... which is how the vaccines attack the virus.
Time will tell. In the meantime, better safe than sorry - I’m glad governments are reacting swiftly with travel restrictions.
We're going to get to a point, though, where every variant/spike can't lead to a lock-down. Virus "theory" is such that viruses will mutate so that they survive. More contagious with milder symptoms is optimal, since it spreads faster - leading to more "virus" - but doesn't kill the hosts. At some point, the once-mocked "it's not the flu!" will likely be more accurate than not, in which case we have to adapt and move on from the Draconian restrictions.
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The new variant doesn't sound that strong. I just wonder if it's easily spreadable.
A lot of unknowns at the moment. But given how rapid cases increase in SA (250% over 2 weeks, it seems it’s a more rapid spreader.
Now, how much does it make people sick\hospitalized\fatal is the TBD part. I think the fear is because there are 30+ mutations in the spike proteins ... which is how the vaccines attack the virus.
Time will tell. In the meantime, better safe than sorry - I’m glad governments are reacting swiftly with travel restrictions.
We're going to get to a point, though, where every variant/spike can't lead to a lock-down. Virus "theory" is such that viruses will mutate so that they survive. More contagious with milder symptoms is optimal, since it spreads faster - leading to more "virus" - but doesn't kill the hosts. At some point, the once-mocked "it's not the flu!" will likely be more accurate than not, in which case we have to adapt and move on from the Draconian restrictions.
My only point on the travel restrictions is that it's not known if this is more dangerous than Delta (towards health or mortality). Clearly there have been more than a few variants of interest (I don't know how many Greek letters there are between Delta and Omicron), that have not been able to supplant Delta.
Otherwise, I have no quarrel with any of that. Makes perfect, logical sense. "Faster" but "weaker" virus is ok by me :tup. "Faster" and "stronger" ... :tdwn.
So, as the old saying goes... "hope for the best, but plan for the worst".
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The early cases from South Africa seemed to suggest a "mild" illness with the new variant, but that's a small sample size and too early to say that safely. Hopefully it is the case and as pointed out, that's more in line with "virus theory" as I'll call it. I've been putting off getting the booster for some time, I really think I should probably get that done this week as my Euro trip for work is still a go for next week. Just don't want a positive test to come up and I'm stuck in Europe and missing Christmas home.
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SA has a very young population, and we shall see how this variant works on the much older Euro/NA population in three weeks to a month. Too early to tell.
Today in "how come the virus is creating so much trouble now when EVERYONE is vaccinated", I learned just this weekend about three separate people in separate circumstances (ages 16 to 28) who I thought would have been vaccinated by now, who still hadn't received a single dose. One of these people received their first dose a few hours ago, the rest are probably forever-stragglers, if they hadn't gotten it by now to make work and travel 100000% easier, they will never get it.
So, you know.
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All right, got my booster appointment set on Wednesday. It should be fine. Get the shot on Wednesday afternoon. Feel a bit woozy on Thursday, but I should be 100% fine on Saturday for Trans-Siberian Orchestra. Given the recent scare, I might as well get this out of the way and be just over two weeks of getting the booster before leaving for San Francisco on 12/17.
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My eurotrip is up in the air now, work may revoke the approval due to travel restrictions and just general safety.
A milder variant that is more contagious may have a positive effect overall, if it overtakes Delta and leads to immunity against harsher variants. Delta has turned out to be quite disastrous here, we are once again in lockdowns.
Can you explain your lockdowns, since I am currently flying into Amsterdam in 1 week. My coworker got back last week and mentioned restaurants closing at 7-8pm and just general masking, but it seems things have changed in the last two weeks. Also, interesting how you need a positive test to fly into the US (even with vaccination) but not into the EU, just vaccination.
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The new variant doesn't sound that strong. I just wonder if it's easily spreadable.
A lot of unknowns at the moment. But given how rapid cases increase in SA (250% over 2 weeks, it seems it’s a more rapid spreader.
Now, how much does it make people sick\hospitalized\fatal is the TBD part. I think the fear is because there are 30+ mutations in the spike proteins ... which is how the vaccines attack the virus.
Time will tell. In the meantime, better safe than sorry - I’m glad governments are reacting swiftly with travel restrictions.
We're going to get to a point, though, where every variant/spike can't lead to a lock-down. Virus "theory" is such that viruses will mutate so that they survive. More contagious with milder symptoms is optimal, since it spreads faster - leading to more "virus" - but doesn't kill the hosts. At some point, the once-mocked "it's not the flu!" will likely be more accurate than not, in which case we have to adapt and move on from the Draconian restrictions.
Regardless of death rates and the amount of people hospitalised, I still think it is not a good thing to compare it to the flu. The flu is respiratory, covid not "just" that. It does who knows what to the brain, blood vessels, heart and other organs. The (long term) damage covid can do is only slowly being unraveled. And these effects aren't necessarily linked to how significant the respiratory symptoms are/were (the "asymptomatic" cases).
As an example, this week one of our major medical research hospitals reported 13 local cases of stillbirth as a result of covid in non-vaccinated people (since July). It seems to be rare in overall numbers, but enough for a local spike in just Rotterdam and surroundings in one hospital. And this is just an example of one of the many organs covid can damage (in this case the placenta being inflamed/scarred).
(Dutch source: https://nos.nl/artikel/2407489-doodgeboortes-bij-niet-gevaccineerde-vrouwen-na-ontsteking-door-corona)
My eurotrip is up in the air now, work may revoke the approval due to travel restrictions and just general safety.
A milder variant that is more contagious may have a positive effect overall, if it overtakes Delta and leads to immunity against harsher variants. Delta has turned out to be quite disastrous here, we are once again in lockdowns.
Can you explain your lockdowns, since I am currently flying into Amsterdam in 1 week. My coworker got back last week and mentioned restaurants closing at 7-8pm and just general masking, but it seems things have changed in the last two weeks. Also, interesting how you need a positive test to fly into the US (even with vaccination) but not into the EU, just vaccination.
In short, just about everything is closed past 17:00 pm (restaurants, bars, entertainment etc.), except for essential stores and services (supermarkets close at 20:00 pm, for example). And in general there are the mask and social distancing rules.
And I assume you mean a negative test :P
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:lol yes meant negative, thanks for the info. Hoping I know by tomorrow if this trip is on or off.
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I was super reluctant to visit family back home (Ireland) in September there, but I'm glad now that I was talked into it. Christ knows when I'll get back there, or any of them over here.
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I was super reluctant to visit family back home (Ireland) in September there, but I'm glad now that I was talked into it. Christ knows when I'll get back there, or any of them over here.
Ireland is awesome!!!
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Booster scheduled for tomorrow afternoon, my euro trip is a go ugh I'm not excited about any of this, but so be it.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/01/health/omicron-first-us-case-california.html
The first case of infection with the Omicron variant of the coronavirus has been reported in the United States, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention announced on Wednesday.
The patient, a traveler who returned to California from South Africa on Nov. 22, is in isolation and aggressive contact tracing is underway. The individual was fully vaccinated and had mild symptoms that are improving.
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(https://c.tenor.com/tUXsg0mZV8MAAAAC/end-homer-simpson.gif)
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Yup, right here in good Ole San Francisco. We're at the forefront of everything it seems.
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If the first case got to US soil 10 days ago, and this is more transmissible than Delta, then we can be damned sure there are A) there are thousands of undiagnosed cases out there, and B) it's across the entire country.
Also, see Adami's post.
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Yup, right here in good Ole San Francisco. We're at the forefront of everything it seems.
Ruh roh. That’s where I’m heading in a few weeks.
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Yup, right here in good Ole San Francisco. We're at the forefront of everything it seems.
Ruh roh. That’s where I’m heading in a few weeks.
Wanna bet on that?
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Yup, right here in good Ole San Francisco. We're at the forefront of everything it seems.
Ruh roh. That’s where I’m heading in a few weeks.
Wanna bet on that?
I'd bet there are no travel restrictions within the US if that's what you are betting on.
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Yup, right here in good Ole San Francisco. We're at the forefront of everything it seems.
Ruh roh. That’s where I’m heading in a few weeks.
Wanna bet on that?
Real money or Canadian money?
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WHO officially calling this one "Omicron"
It's a word scramble. Supposed to be "Moronic". :lol
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Yup, right here in good Ole San Francisco. We're at the forefront of everything it seems.
Ruh roh. That’s where I’m heading in a few weeks.
Wanna bet on that?
Real money or Canadian money?
I'd like you to rip a Canadian 5 dollar bill in half.
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(https://i.imgflip.com/5vr62q.jpg)
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Yup, right here in good Ole San Francisco. We're at the forefront of everything it seems.
Ruh roh. That’s where I’m heading in a few weeks.
Yeah, that's where I too am heading. It sucks that Metallica's anniversary has to fall in December at a time like this.
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Yup, right here in good Ole San Francisco. We're at the forefront of everything it seems.
Ruh roh. That’s where I’m heading in a few weeks.
Wanna bet on that?
I'd bet there are no travel restrictions within the US if that's what you are betting on.
Nah... I wasn't implying formal travel restrictions domestically. I was facetiously suggesting Adami might decide to ex-nay the trip.
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The radio said that the San Francisco Bay Area doesn't need to be worried about omicron, since it'll be priced out and will have to move to the central valley like everything else.
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We locked down initially in March of 2020. Covid was here months before that.
Spoiler alert: Omicron is already here. Has been for awhile now.
Keep calm and get boosted (if you want). :chill
;)
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The radio said that the San Francisco Bay Area doesn't need to be worried about omicron, since it'll be priced out and will have to move to the central valley like everything else.
HAHA.
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:biggrin:
Second case confirmed in Minnesota, guy came back from a convention in NYC, so yeah, it's everywhere now.
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:biggrin:
Second case confirmed in Minnesota, guy came back from a convention in NYC, so yeah, it's everywhere now.
I'm honestly surprised America has no requirements for testing once entering the country and mandatory isolation until it comes back negative.
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:biggrin:
Second case confirmed in Minnesota, guy came back from a convention in NYC, so yeah, it's everywhere now.
I'm honestly surprised America has no requirements for testing once entering the country and mandatory isolation until it comes back negative.
But mah freedumb!
What you said makes sense and therein lies the problem. We have people getting violent over putting a piece of cloth over their face. We'll never get this right as long as people are insolent.
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I get that.
When I went to Israel, they had mandatory testing IN the airport in order to get out. You had mandatory 24 hour isolation or until a negative result comes back. Much smaller country, obviously, but I don't see why America couldn't do something similar.
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A lot of this is handled at the state level, not the Federal level. We don't now, but we - Connecticut - did have those protocols in place for a long time. I would expect that if this variant continues to proliferate, we'll see them again.
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Im starting...(very early stages) to become concerned about this becoming a bit of a big pharma scam.
My "common sense" brain....is right at the beginning of it's "wait a minute" ....type thinking.
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:biggrin:
Second case confirmed in Minnesota, guy came back from a convention in NYC, so yeah, it's everywhere now.
I'm honestly surprised America has no requirements for testing once entering the country and mandatory isolation until it comes back negative.
I'm surprised I don't need a negative test at all to enter the EU. It does look like the US may change the rules from a negative test up to 3 days before flying into the US to 1 day, but still I think you are right. Should just be tested when you land as that's going to be the most up to date status. It still won't be perfect, but it's much closer to getting this right as possible.
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What's going on when it comes to flying within states? I'm flying from Santa Ana to San Francisco in California. Would I just show that I got the vaccines including the booster? Would I still need to take a negative test?
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What's going on when it comes to flying within states? I'm flying from Santa Ana to San Francisco in California. Would I just show that I got the vaccines including the booster? Would I still need to take a negative test?
Right now, yeah, I think you just need proof of vax.
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There is no requirement for vaccines or testing to fly domestically in the US, you just need to wear a mask at all times from entering the airport until leaving the other airport.
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Last I heard, you were required to be vaccinated OR provide proof of a clean test within the last 72 hours.
That’s the basic standard that I’m seeing not only for traveling but for most public gatherings.
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I ended up just sticking with the J&J for the booster on Thursday, not a single side effect.
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Last I heard, you were required to be vaccinated OR provide proof of a clean test within the last 72 hours.
That’s the basic standard that I’m seeing not only for traveling but for most public gatherings.
Maybe that was from last year or something. I've flown a few times this year and did not have to show anything related to The Plague.
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I just saw on the news this morning that international flights back into the US will require a negative covid test within 24 hours of your flight home. It used to be 72 hours, but that is being changed.
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I just saw on the news this morning that international flights back into the US will require a negative covid test within 24 hours of your flight home. It used to be 72 hours, but that is being changed.
How would one even figure out, in a foreign country, how to obtain a negative test 24 hours before your flight? Not asking you, Grapp, just the policy.
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I just saw on the news this morning that international flights back into the US will require a negative covid test within 24 hours of your flight home. It used to be 72 hours, but that is being changed.
How would one even figure out, in a foreign country, how to obtain a negative test 24 hours before your flight? Not asking you, Grapp, just the policy.
You can get in line and do them at the airport. This is what I will need to do in a couple weeks. Got to make sure I get there nice and early and cross my fingers that I don't pull a positive.
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I just saw on the news this morning that international flights back into the US will require a negative covid test within 24 hours of your flight home. It used to be 72 hours, but that is being changed.
How would one even figure out, in a foreign country, how to obtain a negative test 24 hours before your flight? Not asking you, Grapp, just the policy.
You can get in line and do them at the airport. This is what I will need to do in a couple weeks. Got to make sure I get there nice and early and cross my fingers that I don't pull a positive.
OK. Aren't these quick tests like 30% inaccurate?
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I just saw on the news this morning that international flights back into the US will require a negative covid test within 24 hours of your flight home. It used to be 72 hours, but that is being changed.
How would one even figure out, in a foreign country, how to obtain a negative test 24 hours before your flight? Not asking you, Grapp, just the policy.
You can get in line and do them at the airport. This is what I will need to do in a couple weeks. Got to make sure I get there nice and early and cross my fingers that I don't pull a positive.
OK. Aren't these quick tests like 30% inaccurate?
I think closer to 95-99% accuracy.
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My wife is a Special School District teacher and she just found out that a kid she worked 1 on 1 with all day last Friday has tested positive for Covid. She's fully vaccinated and they were both masked but the ignorant thing is neither her principle nor her SSD boss told any of them about it. They found out from another teacher who knows the kids parents??? WTF??? >:(
So, I guess we're in a 'wait and see' pattern.....odd thing is both here and I tested positive this time last year on 12/18.
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I just saw on the news this morning that international flights back into the US will require a negative covid test within 24 hours of your flight home. It used to be 72 hours, but that is being changed.
How would one even figure out, in a foreign country, how to obtain a negative test 24 hours before your flight? Not asking you, Grapp, just the policy.
You can get in line and do them at the airport. This is what I will need to do in a couple weeks. Got to make sure I get there nice and early and cross my fingers that I don't pull a positive.
OK. Aren't these quick tests like 30% inaccurate?
I think closer to 95-99% accuracy.
Huh.
OK. They test at my wife's work, and the amount of false positives has been numerous.
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It also depends on the brand of test, some are better than others. But generally the rapid tests are pretty accurate from my understanding, but not perfect.
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I just saw on the news this morning that international flights back into the US will require a negative covid test within 24 hours of your flight home. It used to be 72 hours, but that is being changed.
How would one even figure out, in a foreign country, how to obtain a negative test 24 hours before your flight? Not asking you, Grapp, just the policy.
You can get in line and do them at the airport. This is what I will need to do in a couple weeks. Got to make sure I get there nice and early and cross my fingers that I don't pull a positive.
Do they give refunds for people who test positive?
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I just saw on the news this morning that international flights back into the US will require a negative covid test within 24 hours of your flight home. It used to be 72 hours, but that is being changed.
How would one even figure out, in a foreign country, how to obtain a negative test 24 hours before your flight? Not asking you, Grapp, just the policy.
You can get in line and do them at the airport. This is what I will need to do in a couple weeks. Got to make sure I get there nice and early and cross my fingers that I don't pull a positive.
Do they give refunds for people who test positive?
For the flight? I believe you can change the date, but not get a refund. I dont think the airlines like to give your money back.
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I just saw on the news this morning that international flights back into the US will require a negative covid test within 24 hours of your flight home. It used to be 72 hours, but that is being changed.
How would one even figure out, in a foreign country, how to obtain a negative test 24 hours before your flight? Not asking you, Grapp, just the policy.
You can get in line and do them at the airport. This is what I will need to do in a couple weeks. Got to make sure I get there nice and early and cross my fingers that I don't pull a positive.
Do they give refunds for people who test positive?
For the flight? I believe you can change the date, but not get a refund. I dont think the airlines like to give your money back.
That sucks especially if someone schedules a flight for vacation time and cannot change their vacation days at the last minute.
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You can change the date, but have to pay the difference.
For my trip to Israel, we booked the tickets back in like May. Then day or so before the flight had to reschedule because Israel changed their entry policies. We were able to do it but it was like 100 bucks or so difference just in ticket cost that we had to pay.
So essentially you don't change the date, you cancel the flight and get a credit for what you paid.
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You can change the date, but have to pay the difference.
For my trip to Israel, we booked the tickets back in like May. Then day or so before the flight had to reschedule because Israel changed their entry policies. We were able to do it but it was like 100 bucks or so difference just in ticket cost that we had to pay.
So essentially you don't change the date, you cancel the flight and get a credit for what you paid.
I guess it depends on the airline. If I were traveling internationally I'd consider buying flight cancellation insurance.
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My wife is a Special School District teacher and she just found out that a kid she worked 1 on 1 with all day last Friday has tested positive for Covid. She's fully vaccinated and they were both masked but the ignorant thing is neither her principle nor her SSD boss told any of them about it. They found out from another teacher who knows the kids parents??? WTF??? >:(
So, I guess we're in a 'wait and see' pattern.....odd thing is both here and I tested positive this time last year on 12/18.
I'd read some reporting from South Africa that one of the "features" of Omicron is that it has a higher propensity to "re" infect people who'd already had COVID (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/omicron-shows-evidence-it-can-reinfect-those-who-already-had-covid-study-says/ar-AARra1L). Although, still no clear indications it is more virulent than Delta... and if they haven't clearly seen any clear indicators, that's good news (in my book).
Fingers crossed for you.
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My wife is a Special School District teacher and she just found out that a kid she worked 1 on 1 with all day last Friday has tested positive for Covid. She's fully vaccinated and they were both masked but the ignorant thing is neither her principle nor her SSD boss told any of them about it. They found out from another teacher who knows the kids parents??? WTF??? >:(
So, I guess we're in a 'wait and see' pattern.....odd thing is both here and I tested positive this time last year on 12/18.
I'd read some reporting from South Africa that one of the "features" of Omicron is that it has a higher propensity to "re" infect people who'd already had COVID (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/omicron-shows-evidence-it-can-reinfect-those-who-already-had-covid-study-says/ar-AARra1L). Although, still no clear indications it is more virulent than Delta... and if they haven't clearly seen any clear indicators, that's good news (in my book).
Fingers crossed for you.
CNN had a headline on TV today ( strolled by at work and saw it, but did not watch the piece or anything) that they continue to see evidence of omicron infections being more mild.
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Yeah, I mean when Delta first hit India, it didn't take too long for it to get to Defcon 5. The fact the media is reporting NOTHING staggering regarding Omicron being more virulent - and it's been around for at least 2 weeks - gives me ... hope?
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Yeah, I mean when Delta first hit India, it didn't take too long for it to get to Defcon 5. The fact the media is reporting NOTHING staggering regarding Omicron being more virulent - and it's been around for at least 2 weeks - gives me ... hope?
It's still going to spread like wildfire I'd imagine. Just hopefully not clog up hospitals and put locals into lockdowns. I'd imagine it's already playing a role in rising cases here even if we are only just now noticing the variant.
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Yeah, I mean when Delta first hit India, it didn't take too long for it to get to Defcon 5. The fact the media is reporting NOTHING staggering regarding Omicron being more virulent - and it's been around for at least 2 weeks - gives me ... hope?
It's still going to spread like wildfire I'd imagine. Just hopefully not clog up hospitals and put locals into lockdowns. I'd imagine it's already playing a role in rising cases here even if we are only just now noticing the variant.
Precisely my gut feeling as well. Ontario's daily case counts have essentially doubled in the last month. I think seasonality (ie, we're indoors more often) plays a role, but I'm guessing (hoping?) that Omicron is part of it as well.
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I heard on NPR this morning that Omicron cases have been found in one third of U.S. states.
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My wife is a Special School District teacher and she just found out that a kid she worked 1 on 1 with all day last Friday has tested positive for Covid. She's fully vaccinated and they were both masked but the ignorant thing is neither her principle nor her SSD boss told any of them about it. They found out from another teacher who knows the kids parents??? WTF??? >:(
So, I guess we're in a 'wait and see' pattern.....odd thing is both here and I tested positive this time last year on 12/18.
I'd read some reporting from South Africa that one of the "features" of Omicron is that it has a higher propensity to "re" infect people who'd already had COVID (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/omicron-shows-evidence-it-can-reinfect-those-who-already-had-covid-study-says/ar-AARra1L). Although, still no clear indications it is more virulent than Delta... and if they haven't clearly seen any clear indicators, that's good news (in my book).
Fingers crossed for you.
CNN had a headline on TV today ( strolled by at work and saw it, but did not watch the piece or anything) that they continue to see evidence of omicron infections being more mild.
This is everything I'm hearing.
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https://www.tech-gate.org/usa/2021/12/07/120-partygoers-who-caught-omicron-super-strain-at-norwegian-xmas-work-night-out-have-mild-symptoms/
None of the 100-plus partygoers who caught Omicron at a Norwegian Christmas party believed to be the world’s biggest coronavirus super-spreader event have fallen seriously unwell.
Doctors involved in tracing the outbreak say the infected are so far only suffering very mild symptoms like fevers, coughs, headaches and tiredness following the festive do on November 26.
Some 120 people who attended the Louise Restaurant and Bar in Oslo have tested positive for Covid, all of which are suspected to be Omicron but only 13 have been confirmed in a lab.
Saw a tweet on this that suggested (as I think it was Stads who did here), that more transmissible but less virulent could put the world on a path to ending the global pandemic status.
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https://www.tech-gate.org/usa/2021/12/07/120-partygoers-who-caught-omicron-super-strain-at-norwegian-xmas-work-night-out-have-mild-symptoms/
None of the 100-plus partygoers who caught Omicron at a Norwegian Christmas party believed to be the world’s biggest coronavirus super-spreader event have fallen seriously unwell.
Doctors involved in tracing the outbreak say the infected are so far only suffering very mild symptoms like fevers, coughs, headaches and tiredness following the festive do on November 26.
Some 120 people who attended the Louise Restaurant and Bar in Oslo have tested positive for Covid, all of which are suspected to be Omicron but only 13 have been confirmed in a lab.
Saw a tweet on this that suggested (as I think it was Stads who did here), that more transmissible but less virulent could put the world on a path to ending the global pandemic status.
I was perusing the Youtubes and came across an interview with a Dr. in South Africa that relayed the same thing.
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That would be odd. If the virus is more tranmissible and more people get it, doesn't that give the virus the opportunity to continue mutating due to its high spread level? Unless a majority of world population gets it and recovers from it very quickly and simultaneously, which is highly unlikely, we might see new variants wherever the omicron might be dominating.
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That would be odd. If the virus is more tranmissible and more people get it, doesn't that give the virus the opportunity to continue mutating due to its high spread level? Unless a majority of world population gets it and recovers from it very quickly and simultaneously, which is highly unlikely, we might see new variants wherever the omicron might be dominating.
Or maybe omicron would continue mutating into less virulent variants, steering it into the direction akin to the flu or common cold, where only a few select cases would be beyond a mere nuisance.
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Thought it was interesting when entering The Netherlands today that the customs agents asked if I was vaxxed and when I said yes, she trusted me and didn't check my CDC card as I was about to hand it to her. Considering everything shuts down early here from the lockdowns, you'd think they'd be pretty strict on checking who is entering the country.
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Not a day goes by now that I don't get an email from the school district announcing positive covid cases. It's literally every day now. 11 kids yesterday alone were positive. I asked my son if these kids are wearing masks. He says a bunch don't. I asked if the teachers yell at them and he says they do, but the kids just keep skirting the system.
I'm not surprised in the least. I'm a fish out of water in my area. Vax rates still suck in my county.
EDIT: Just got today's email. Another several positive cases.
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That would be odd. If the virus is more tranmissible and more people get it, doesn't that give the virus the opportunity to continue mutating due to its high spread level? Unless a majority of world population gets it and recovers from it very quickly and simultaneously, which is highly unlikely, we might see new variants wherever the omicron might be dominating.
Or maybe omicron would continue mutating into less virulent variants, steering it into the direction akin to the flu or common cold, where only a few select cases would be beyond a mere nuisance.
This is what I was saying above, and what I'm hearing (at least here in CT) about possibilities. Viruses to "survive" can't keep killing off their hosts. Highly transmissible and a living host are optimal for a virus to promulgate.
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The facebook group that I'm in for my school district (which leans to the more conservative parents) had a discussion last week and the husband of one of the board members was indicating that the CDC's data shows that kids don't spread or catch covid in schools as opposed to at home. I'm starting to believe that is true.
Our elementary school has a positive case here or there, but there aren't really big outbreaks. I really think it's kids catching it from outside of school.
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Not a day goes by now that I don't get an email from the school district announcing positive covid cases. It's literally every day now. 11 kids yesterday alone were positive. I asked my son if these kids are wearing masks. He says a bunch don't. I asked if the teachers yell at them and he says they do, but the kids just keep skirting the system.
I'm not surprised in the least. I'm a fish out of water in my area. Vax rates still suck in my county.
EDIT: Just got today's email. Another several positive cases.
Look, not a skeptic; I have been vaccinated, including booster, and I am a mask maniac (at least when I travel). I carry disposable ones in my car, and I have a couple of cloth ones I wear when traveling or wearing one for a longer time (they fog my glasses less). But those "emails" (but their emails!) are misleading and inflammatory. My state - leading the nation (at least at one point if not right this moment) in vaccination rates for it's population, and with many towns with mask mandates remaining in place, and our "positivity rate" seems to bounce like a mosh pit between about 1.9 and as high as 8 percent earlier this week.
I've flown 12 times in the last two months, and have gotten not one notification (contact trace) on anyone getting sick, and no media reports of "super spreader"-type events from flying. All I'm saying here is that I don't think we should panic, and I don't think we can stick with the simple "masks on, not sick, masks off, sick" or "vaccine, not sick, no vaxx, sick" narrative any longer. We're two years almost into this and the virus has defied those easy narratives the entire way and seems to continue to do so. I'm still going to reduce my odds, no question, but that's all I'm doing, is reducing my odds.
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The facebook group that I'm in for my school district (which leans to the more conservative parents) had a discussion last week and the husband of one of the board members was indicating that the CDC's data shows that kids don't spread or catch covid in schools as opposed to at home. I'm starting to believe that is true.
Our elementary school has a positive case here or there, but there aren't really big outbreaks. I really think it's kids catching it from outside of school.
I don't mean this to sound dick-ish, but just how exactly does the virus know if someone is at school or at home? Did the FB group guy provide a link to the CDC data/study?
Bill... great post/comments. I'm of the same mindset. mrs.jingle? Not quite so much, but gradually getting there.
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I don't mean this to sound dick-ish, but just how exactly does the virus know if someone is at school or at home? Did the FB group guy provide a link to the CDC data/study?
Bill... great post/comments. I'm of the same mindset. mrs.jingle? Not quite so much, but gradually getting there.
No, there was no study shown, but the comments came from someone in the community that is very sensible and whom I trust, despite having some different views about things. His wife sits on the school board and he takes the time to review a lot of information with regard to the schools, putting forth educated arguments, not just random comments like "don't get the jab."
A year ago, prior to vaccines being available, Illinois' Department of Public Health noted though contact tracing that the majority of positive cases were coming from small household gatherings. The state wasn't seeing super-spreader events or a lot of public transmission. It was people gathering at a home, where you're in closer quarters for longer periods of time, without a mask. I think this still holds true.
So you are correct in that the virus doesn't know any difference and I've always believed that. But the circumstances in which kids are around each other at school vs. at home or with friends is different. A friend of mine who teaches at a daycare sees the same thing - parents drag their small kids around or have playdates, then the kids get sick and the daycare room shuts down for a while. It's not that the daycare had an outbreak, it's that a kid came down with covid somewhere else and the daycare (or school) has to note a positive case and react accordingly to prevent an outbreak.
I'm to the point where I feel that society needs to start learning to live with it as opposed to trying to control it. It's never going to be controlled. If the new variants start to become weaker, then I'll be comfortable with the risks - once my 4 year old is able to get vaccinated, it's "game on" for my family again. We can protect ourselves as best as we can and comply with mask/vaccine rules as needed, and stop worrying about covid as much as we have been.
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Not a day goes by now that I don't get an email from the school district announcing positive covid cases. It's literally every day now. 11 kids yesterday alone were positive. I asked my son if these kids are wearing masks. He says a bunch don't. I asked if the teachers yell at them and he says they do, but the kids just keep skirting the system.
I'm not surprised in the least. I'm a fish out of water in my area. Vax rates still suck in my county.
EDIT: Just got today's email. Another several positive cases.
But those "emails" (but their emails!) are misleading and inflammatory.
How are they misleading and inflammatory?
They basically state that 1 kid in the middle school has tested positive and I faculty member in the high school has tested positive. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
The rest of it is a pretty standard form letter.."Safety of our students and faculty are most important......"blah blah blah
The really just seem to be a reporting mechanism.
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Not a day goes by now that I don't get an email from the school district announcing positive covid cases. It's literally every day now. 11 kids yesterday alone were positive. I asked my son if these kids are wearing masks. He says a bunch don't. I asked if the teachers yell at them and he says they do, but the kids just keep skirting the system.
I'm not surprised in the least. I'm a fish out of water in my area. Vax rates still suck in my county.
EDIT: Just got today's email. Another several positive cases.
Look, not a skeptic; I have been vaccinated, including booster, and I am a mask maniac (at least when I travel). I carry disposable ones in my car, and I have a couple of cloth ones I wear when traveling or wearing one for a longer time (they fog my glasses less). But those "emails" (but their emails!) are misleading and inflammatory. My state - leading the nation (at least at one point if not right this moment) in vaccination rates for it's population, and with many towns with mask mandates remaining in place, and our "positivity rate" seems to bounce like a mosh pit between about 1.9 and as high as 8 percent earlier this week.
I've flown 12 times in the last two months, and have gotten not one notification (contact trace) on anyone getting sick, and no media reports of "super spreader"-type events from flying. All I'm saying here is that I don't think we should panic, and I don't think we can stick with the simple "masks on, not sick, masks off, sick" or "vaccine, not sick, no vaxx, sick" narrative any longer. We're two years almost into this and the virus has defied those easy narratives the entire way and seems to continue to do so. I'm still going to reduce my odds, no question, but that's all I'm doing, is reducing my odds.
Now you sound like me... :biggrin:
I've said it...Humans have a false belief they control the world. This is proof that Humans do not and will never control the world. There's loads of things that we share this world with, and nature itself can easily wipe us all away if it wants to. We humans are doing things to this planet to speed up that process of killing ourselves.
You have to think, why are we humans so unhealthy that we panic when mass sickness arrives. So the only thing one can and should do is worry about themselves first and foremost. Because you could take the vaccine to prevent grandma from catching it, but then grandma decides she wants to go to the store or to live her life in happiness by seeing the world. Lots of Elderly are depressed because they can't go anywhere.
The trade-off of being so fearful we need to secure ourselves is it's effecting the mentality of a lot of people. It caused humans to be afraid of one another.
My issue with all of this pandemic is the blame. Why must people place blame on someone for causing turmoil to them,especially a sickness where it's difficult to pinpoint the exact cause. If you want to play the blame game, who is to blame? Yourself for not taking care of your health that now your susceptible to easy illness, or the person out there who has no clue to who you are and what your health issues are? Who's responsibility is it to take care of being healthy?
I can place blame on anyone, but yet, the only one that matters is me, and anything that happens to me is the cause of my actions, decisions, and choices. I do not have to emotionally respond to others, but when I do, actions happen such as fighting due to anger, releasing the tension of depression, or balling my eyes out because of a sad song.
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How are they misleading and inflammatory?
They basically state that 1 kid in the middle school has tested positive and I faculty member in the high school has tested positive. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
The rest of it is a pretty standard form letter.."Safety of our students and faculty are most important......"blah blah blah
The really just seem to be a reporting mechanism.
Exactly how I see it.
We get the same emails and my wife is like "oh boy, another positive case in school." I remind her that if our daughter were a close contact, we'd have already been notified by contact tracing and there is nothing to worry about. By the time the letter goes out, it's just a note to parents to fulfill some state/government/school board requirement.
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How are they misleading and inflammatory?
They basically state that 1 kid in the middle school has tested positive and I faculty member in the high school has tested positive. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
The rest of it is a pretty standard form letter.."Safety of our students and faculty are most important......"blah blah blah
The really just seem to be a reporting mechanism.
Exactly how I see it.
We get the same emails and my wife is like "oh boy, another positive case in school." I remind her that if our daughter were a close contact, we'd have already been notified by contact tracing and there is nothing to worry about. By the time the letter goes out, it's just a note to parents to fulfill some state/government/school board requirement.
They'd do the same if there was an outbreak of lice. "There's (insert number) of kids that have been found with lice." Then they'll institute daily lice checks. Which everyone in that school can get lice if interacting with the kids who do.
But, I also see how it can be considered misleading, in it's playing off the parents fears for the child's safety. It's causing parents to mislead in thinking the schools are where the children are getting Covid when it's showing not to be the case.
Does the email state, the home is where most issues are formed, even sickness. If your child is sick, keep him home.
Then also, how many of those children who tested positive had symptoms that were worrying. Or did the parents at the sign of the sniffles and runny nose take their kid to get tested? Most won't and feel it's a common cold and will just send their kid to "shake it off" which is what we do for the common cold, rather than take time off work to take their kid to the doctor to see exactly if it is Covid or the common cold, or something else entirely.
What is the better trade-off, taking off from work to stay home with your child, preventing you from earning a sustainable living? Or working to earn money so your child can have food to eat and toilet paper to wipe their ass?
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Many schools since the beginning of the pandemic have installed improved ventilation measures and policies around hand washing/sanitizing objects which are thought to greatly reduce transmission. Airplanes have always had fairly low transmission rates because of their cabin airflow systems. All of these things factor in.
When families share close quarters in their apartments/homes and sanitizing is probably less optimal and people are not wearing masks at all -- even when someone has symptoms - then transmission rates are bound to go higher.
If anyone can find it, I'd love to see the rates of other illnesses in schools right now. In our area RSV has been very high since school began. But I cannot say for certain school is where it is being spread, just that there seems to be a correlation with the start of school. RSV is more droplet spread than Covid, so it makes sense in that when a kid coughs or sneezes and the droplet fall on surfaces others can pick it up easily. Covid seems to have less fomite spread.
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Not a day goes by now that I don't get an email from the school district announcing positive covid cases. It's literally every day now. 11 kids yesterday alone were positive. I asked my son if these kids are wearing masks. He says a bunch don't. I asked if the teachers yell at them and he says they do, but the kids just keep skirting the system.
I'm not surprised in the least. I'm a fish out of water in my area. Vax rates still suck in my county.
EDIT: Just got today's email. Another several positive cases.
But those "emails" (but their emails!) are misleading and inflammatory.
How are they misleading and inflammatory?
They basically state that 1 kid in the middle school has tested positive and I faculty member in the high school has tested positive. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
The rest of it is a pretty standard form letter.."Safety of our students and faculty are most important......"blah blah blah
The really just seem to be a reporting mechanism.
Well, I guess the reaction is the inflammatory part, not the emails themselves, and since we're getting that reaction, that's why I say the emails are misleading. We just know, it's well documented, that the press has really hammered the negativity around this issue, and it just seems as if the reporting has taken it's cues from that. Plus our society in general is such that "hey, just giving you this info, nothing to worry about and here's why" isn't a viable option. I haven't heard much scuttlebutt about this, but I would venture that school systems across the country are petrified of getting sued over this in some form or fashion.
That someone in YOUR school system gets another case of COVID doesn't NECESSARILY change anything for your kid. The devil is in the details as it always is, but there's no way of making sure the reaction considers that.
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How are they misleading and inflammatory?
They basically state that 1 kid in the middle school has tested positive and I faculty member in the high school has tested positive. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
The rest of it is a pretty standard form letter.."Safety of our students and faculty are most important......"blah blah blah
The really just seem to be a reporting mechanism.
Exactly how I see it.
We get the same emails and my wife is like "oh boy, another positive case in school." I remind her that if our daughter were a close contact, we'd have already been notified by contact tracing and there is nothing to worry about. By the time the letter goes out, it's just a note to parents to fulfill some state/government/school board requirement.
They'd do the same if there was an outbreak of lice. "There's (insert number) of kids that have been found with lice." Then they'll institute daily lice checks. Which everyone in that school can get lice if interacting with the kids who do.
But, I also see how it can be considered misleading, in it's playing off the parents fears for the child's safety. It's causing parents to mislead in thinking the schools are where the children are getting Covid when it's showing not to be the case.
Does the email state, the home is where most issues are formed, even sickness. If your child is sick, keep him home.
Then also, how many of those children who tested positive had symptoms that were worrying. Or did the parents at the sign of the sniffles and runny nose take their kid to get tested? Most won't and feel it's a common cold and will just send their kid to "shake it off" which is what we do for the common cold, rather than take time off work to take their kid to the doctor to see exactly if it is Covid or the common cold, or something else entirely.
What is the better trade-off, taking off from work to stay home with your child, preventing you from earning a sustainable living? Or working to earn money so your child can have food to eat and toilet paper to wipe their ass?
Ben, to the bolded...the emails simply report. There are loinks to the CDC and stuff, but at no point is the school making judgements on where it was caught.
Also, misleading? The schools are obligated to report cases. Fears the parents have is the parents's issue.
Here is an example of an email in our district last year..
Anytown Public Schools Notice of Positive COVID-19 Test
School Directly Affected: Middle/Senior High School
March 5, 2021
Dear Anytown Families,
I am writing to inform you that 1 student at the Middle/Senior High School tested positive for COVID-19.
There are currently two students and two staff members who are actively positive within the district. Since the start of school we have now had a total of 118 positive COVID-19 cases, 96 students and 22 staff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For complete information on all cases please click on the COVID-19 dashboard link https://www.Anytownrschools.org/page/coronavirus-information which is in the “Coronovirus Information” tab on the top of each page on the website. A reminder that the dashboard is updated not only when we get positive cases but also when students and/or staff are no longer active. Therefore this document is continually updated and changing according to the timelines established for each individual. We will do our best to update in a timely manner. This dashboard will provide families with information about active COVID-19 cases (students and staff) in the school district. It will also provide information about the number of students and staff who are being actively quarantined due to being a close contact to a positive case in school. Finally, the dashboard will include the total number of cases in the schools at the bottom of the dashboard. There will also be a link to the Anytown Board of Health page Anytown Board of Health Coronavirus Information Website and the Massachusetts Department of Health page Commonwealth of Massachusetts COVID-19 Information Website
It is always our first priority and our responsibility to keep our students and staff safe and to inform our school community. We created a plan to address this scenario during our reopening planning process. Part of this plan included the process of informing families whose student(s) were at risk of exposure or in close contact, and to provide support to the affected family as they navigate through this stressful experience. I want to assure you that our Administrative team along with our Lead Nurse continue to meet to discuss each positive case. We also are working closely with the Anytown Board of Health.
Our students and staff have been closely adhering to the recommended safety protocols including mask wearing, hand washing, and social distancing. We are grateful to our families for remaining diligent by their continued efforts to keep students home at the first sign of symptoms and for following our district checklist. The risk of additional transmission within our schools is greatly reduced by consistently practicing all of these measures.
Just a reminder that parents of students who are considered in close contact (defined by the CDC as being within 6 feet of the COVID+ individual for a cumulative total of 15 minutes or more within a 24 hour period) will be notified privately by the school. Massachusetts has aligned its quarantine recommendations with recent updates by the CDC. Their data shows that shortened quarantine periods result in only a small chance that someone may develop COVID-19 after leaving quarantine. The small risk that someone may develop COVID-19 after a shortened strict quarantine period is outweighed by the expected benefit of reduced transmission from the expected increased cooperation with adherence to the quarantine, according to the CDC.
The majority of COVID-19 cases have incubation periods fewer than 10 days, although the possible incubation period is still 14 days. During the quarantine period, people must not have visitors in their homes and they cannot have contact with other people who live in their homes.
The 14-day quarantine recommendation remains in place for any person experiencing any COVID-19 symptoms during the quarantine period, even if they have a negative test, and for those unwilling or unable to conduct active self-monitoring of symptoms.
If the person does not have a test and does not have symptoms, they may be allowed to leave quarantine on Day 11 (following 10 days of quarantine).
Under either option, the individual must conduct active monitoring of their symptoms through Day 14 and get tested and isolate if they develop any sign of disease.
The guidance for a person who has tested positive for COVID-19 has not changed, which means they should stay in self-isolation for 10 days. They can resume public activities after the 10 days as long as they have gone for 24 hours without a fever and without taking fever-reducing medications like Tylenol and have experienced improvement in other symptoms, such as a cough that has gotten much better.
Specific information will be provided to any student who may be considered a close contact.
Please understand that we cannot provide specific information about our school community members who tested positive. If you have not been contacted by the school, your child was not a close contact of the affected school members. Please continue to monitor your child for symptoms, and keep your child home if he/she/they shows any symptoms or is not feeling well. If you have any questions please contact the school nurse or building administrator.
We are following all Department of Public Health protocols, including collaborating with our local Anytown Board of Health, to complete contact tracing. Additionally, we are asking those parents whose students get tested for COVID-19, to please report the results immediately to the school nurse. We are continuously working hard to understand the impact of the virus on our school community and the timely transmission of information is critical.
We will continue to be vigilant in adhering to all of the state and local protocols that have been put in place while remaining committed to providing instruction and structure and supporting the students’ connection to the classroom. There is no change to the learning models in any of the schools and we are continuing to have students learn in the hybrid model. All schools in Anytown remain open at this time.
For more information on COVID-19 symptoms and testing, visit: https://www.mass.gov/info-details/about-covid-19-testing#where-can-get-a-test?- and/or https://www.mass.gov/info-details/stop-the-spread
Please contact us immediately should you or someone in your home begin to show symptoms.We are committed to continuous communication with and support of our families. If you have any additional questions or concerns, please contact your school nurse:
If there is additional transmission as a result of this case or a separate case, we will send out another message immediately. Thank you for your continued support.
Sincerely,
Jow Blow
Superintendent of Schools
Everything below the line (which I put in, is a form letter that appeared on every email).
If someone finds this misleading, then they are looking for issues where there is none.
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We're #1!
We're #1!
We're #1!
In NH on reported cases per capita. I'm boostered so I'm not too worried but I worry about my dad who is so damn frail. He gets his booster Saturday.
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We had a case here where a parent knowingly sent their kid to school after a positive result, saying she didn't understand the protocol. There are currently over 70 positive tests in the blast radius of this one kid now. Fortunately, it's in an area with an insanely high vax rate, I think the highest in the country, but that still doesn't forgive brash stupidity.
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How are they misleading and inflammatory?
They basically state that 1 kid in the middle school has tested positive and I faculty member in the high school has tested positive. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
The rest of it is a pretty standard form letter.."Safety of our students and faculty are most important......"blah blah blah
The really just seem to be a reporting mechanism.
Exactly how I see it.
We get the same emails and my wife is like "oh boy, another positive case in school." I remind her that if our daughter were a close contact, we'd have already been notified by contact tracing and there is nothing to worry about. By the time the letter goes out, it's just a note to parents to fulfill some state/government/school board requirement.
They'd do the same if there was an outbreak of lice. "There's (insert number) of kids that have been found with lice." Then they'll institute daily lice checks. Which everyone in that school can get lice if interacting with the kids who do.
But, I also see how it can be considered misleading, in it's playing off the parents fears for the child's safety. It's causing parents to mislead in thinking the schools are where the children are getting Covid when it's showing not to be the case.
Does the email state, the home is where most issues are formed, even sickness. If your child is sick, keep him home.
Then also, how many of those children who tested positive had symptoms that were worrying. Or did the parents at the sign of the sniffles and runny nose take their kid to get tested? Most won't and feel it's a common cold and will just send their kid to "shake it off" which is what we do for the common cold, rather than take time off work to take their kid to the doctor to see exactly if it is Covid or the common cold, or something else entirely.
What is the better trade-off, taking off from work to stay home with your child, preventing you from earning a sustainable living? Or working to earn money so your child can have food to eat and toilet paper to wipe their ass?
Ben, to the bolded...the emails simply report. There are loinks to the CDC and stuff, but at no point is the school making judgements on where it was caught.
Also, misleading? The schools are obligated to report cases. Fears the parents have is the parents's issue.
Here is an example of an email in our district last year..
Anytown Public Schools Notice of Positive COVID-19 Test
School Directly Affected: Middle/Senior High School
March 5, 2021
Dear Anytown Families,
I am writing to inform you that 1 student at the Middle/Senior High School tested positive for COVID-19.
There are currently two students and two staff members who are actively positive within the district. Since the start of school we have now had a total of 118 positive COVID-19 cases, 96 students and 22 staff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For complete information on all cases please click on the COVID-19 dashboard link https://www.Anytownrschools.org/page/coronavirus-information which is in the “Coronovirus Information” tab on the top of each page on the website. A reminder that the dashboard is updated not only when we get positive cases but also when students and/or staff are no longer active. Therefore this document is continually updated and changing according to the timelines established for each individual. We will do our best to update in a timely manner. This dashboard will provide families with information about active COVID-19 cases (students and staff) in the school district. It will also provide information about the number of students and staff who are being actively quarantined due to being a close contact to a positive case in school. Finally, the dashboard will include the total number of cases in the schools at the bottom of the dashboard. There will also be a link to the Anytown Board of Health page Anytown Board of Health Coronavirus Information Website and the Massachusetts Department of Health page Commonwealth of Massachusetts COVID-19 Information Website
It is always our first priority and our responsibility to keep our students and staff safe and to inform our school community. We created a plan to address this scenario during our reopening planning process. Part of this plan included the process of informing families whose student(s) were at risk of exposure or in close contact, and to provide support to the affected family as they navigate through this stressful experience. I want to assure you that our Administrative team along with our Lead Nurse continue to meet to discuss each positive case. We also are working closely with the Anytown Board of Health.
Our students and staff have been closely adhering to the recommended safety protocols including mask wearing, hand washing, and social distancing. We are grateful to our families for remaining diligent by their continued efforts to keep students home at the first sign of symptoms and for following our district checklist. The risk of additional transmission within our schools is greatly reduced by consistently practicing all of these measures.
Just a reminder that parents of students who are considered in close contact (defined by the CDC as being within 6 feet of the COVID+ individual for a cumulative total of 15 minutes or more within a 24 hour period) will be notified privately by the school. Massachusetts has aligned its quarantine recommendations with recent updates by the CDC. Their data shows that shortened quarantine periods result in only a small chance that someone may develop COVID-19 after leaving quarantine. The small risk that someone may develop COVID-19 after a shortened strict quarantine period is outweighed by the expected benefit of reduced transmission from the expected increased cooperation with adherence to the quarantine, according to the CDC.
The majority of COVID-19 cases have incubation periods fewer than 10 days, although the possible incubation period is still 14 days. During the quarantine period, people must not have visitors in their homes and they cannot have contact with other people who live in their homes.
The 14-day quarantine recommendation remains in place for any person experiencing any COVID-19 symptoms during the quarantine period, even if they have a negative test, and for those unwilling or unable to conduct active self-monitoring of symptoms.
If the person does not have a test and does not have symptoms, they may be allowed to leave quarantine on Day 11 (following 10 days of quarantine).
Under either option, the individual must conduct active monitoring of their symptoms through Day 14 and get tested and isolate if they develop any sign of disease.
The guidance for a person who has tested positive for COVID-19 has not changed, which means they should stay in self-isolation for 10 days. They can resume public activities after the 10 days as long as they have gone for 24 hours without a fever and without taking fever-reducing medications like Tylenol and have experienced improvement in other symptoms, such as a cough that has gotten much better.
Specific information will be provided to any student who may be considered a close contact.
Please understand that we cannot provide specific information about our school community members who tested positive. If you have not been contacted by the school, your child was not a close contact of the affected school members. Please continue to monitor your child for symptoms, and keep your child home if he/she/they shows any symptoms or is not feeling well. If you have any questions please contact the school nurse or building administrator.
We are following all Department of Public Health protocols, including collaborating with our local Anytown Board of Health, to complete contact tracing. Additionally, we are asking those parents whose students get tested for COVID-19, to please report the results immediately to the school nurse. We are continuously working hard to understand the impact of the virus on our school community and the timely transmission of information is critical.
We will continue to be vigilant in adhering to all of the state and local protocols that have been put in place while remaining committed to providing instruction and structure and supporting the students’ connection to the classroom. There is no change to the learning models in any of the schools and we are continuing to have students learn in the hybrid model. All schools in Anytown remain open at this time.
For more information on COVID-19 symptoms and testing, visit: https://www.mass.gov/info-details/about-covid-19-testing#where-can-get-a-test?- and/or https://www.mass.gov/info-details/stop-the-spread
Please contact us immediately should you or someone in your home begin to show symptoms.We are committed to continuous communication with and support of our families. If you have any additional questions or concerns, please contact your school nurse:
If there is additional transmission as a result of this case or a separate case, we will send out another message immediately. Thank you for your continued support.
Sincerely,
Jow Blow
Superintendent of Schools
Everything below the line (which I put in, is a form letter that appeared on every email).
If someone finds this misleading, then they are looking for issues where there is none.
You don't have to use the oblique "someone". :) :) :) :) :) I'M the one that said misleading, and I meant it, and I stand by it. I'm not looking for an issue; I'm the guy saying there's less issue than many are making it out to (I'm very comfortable with sliding into "COVID is the equivalent of the flu or common cold" attitude when it comes to that). Maybe we're quibbling about different things - you said "that's on the parents" and that may be true. That may actually be where my focus should be. I'm not saying I'm RIGHT, I'm just saying that the bombardment of general information - OUR SCHOOL - to an audience that only really cares about the specific - MY KID - is fraught with peril. One - or two, or ten - that have COVID in a school of indeterminate size with indeterminate exposure pathways may actually not impact one specific child's risk profile even a little bit. The notification doesn't change that, but it also doesn't give the information necessary to make that call.
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I actually wasn't directing that to you personally Stadler, but I was to Ben, as I'm not sure he'd ever seen what those letters actually look like.
But you'll have to explain better how a simple factual report of a positive case can be misleading. The only way I could see it was misleading is if the number of cases was different than what was reported.
It's like saying The Patriots have won 9 games this year. How on earth is that misleading? Now they may have deserved to lose a game they won, and perhaps should've won a game they lost. The number is not indicative how "how they're playing" but it does correctly point out the number of wins.
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Because you trust the system and Stads does not.
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I actually wasn't directing that to you personally Stadler, but I was to Ben, as I'm not sure he'd ever seen what those letters actually look like.
But you'll have to explain better how a simple factual report of a positive case can be misleading. The only way I could see it was misleading is if the number of cases was different than what was reported.
It's like saying The Patriots have won 9 games this year. How on earth is that misleading? Now they may have deserved to lose a game they won, and perhaps should've won a game they lost. The number is not indicative how "how they're playing" but it does correctly point out the number of wins.
Well, to use your analogy, if I heard "9 wins" and thought, WOW, that's GREAT! it would matter who they played for that to be meaningful. The Jets twice, the Lions and the Jaguars, well, that's not as great as I thought. The Bills, the Chiefs and the Bucs? Now THAT'S great.
We're locked in this do-loop of "more cases=bad", which, on a macro level is true. On a personal level, maybe not. And those emails simply feed that presumption, with no means to offset that. Again, I'm more than willing to accept that my problem is not with the information, but with the audience, and that's fair.
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It would be misleading if there were 100 new cases and they said there were 50.
So it's NOT misleading.
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It would be misleading if there were 100 new cases and they said there were 50.
So it's NOT misleading.
You're being too literal, Draxx. Literally true numbers with omitted context can in fact be very misleading. Not saying that is the case here, but let's not just waive it away on the basis of "literal truth." That isn't the only variable that matters.
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Plus, it's a mutating virus. Every time different numbers comes up the anti vac crowd thinks that it's all made up. It's evolving. So the numbers will change.
Unlike votes for the Presidency. *Pokes a stick to harass*
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Plus, it's a mutating virus. Every time different numbers comes up the anti vac crowd thinks that it's all made up. It's evolving. So the numbers will change.
Or like the number of carts in a coral.
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I actually wasn't directing that to you personally Stadler, but I was to Ben, as I'm not sure he'd ever seen what those letters actually look like.
But you'll have to explain better how a simple factual report of a positive case can be misleading. The only way I could see it was misleading is if the number of cases was different than what was reported.
It's like saying The Patriots have won 9 games this year. How on earth is that misleading? Now they may have deserved to lose a game they won, and perhaps should've won a game they lost. The number is not indicative how "how they're playing" but it does correctly point out the number of wins.
Well, to use your analogy, if I heard "9 wins" and thought, WOW, that's GREAT! it would matter who they played for that to be meaningful. The Jets twice, the Lions and the Jaguars, well, that's not as great as I thought. The Bills, the Chiefs and the Bucs? Now THAT'S great.
We're locked in this do-loop of "more cases=bad", which, on a macro level is true. On a personal level, maybe not. And those emails simply feed that presumption, with no means to offset that. Again, I'm more than willing to accept that my problem is not with the information, but with the audience, and that's fair.
See, I used a genius analogy didn't I? ;D
The number of wins does NOT tell the whole story of how the team was playing, as you said..who they were playing, etc..
The number of cases also does not tell the whole story..other than the number of cases. I pull away from your misleading remark because the school has an obligation to report. I suppose you're not insinuating that you're not accusing the school of being intentionally misleading though.
I understand your point. We used to have the news on the lunchroom TV in the store I worked at up until April of this year. It was CNN or MSNBC...something like that. And they had a total cases ticker on the screen, and I really felt it was unnecessary.
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It would be misleading if there were 100 new cases and they said there were 50.
So it's NOT misleading.
You're being too literal, Draxx. Literally true numbers with omitted context can in fact be very misleading. Not saying that is the case here, but let's not just waive it away on the basis of "literal truth." That isn't the only variable that matters.
If it's the only thing they are reporting, or claiming to report, then yes it is, when leveling charges of "misleading".
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It would be misleading if there were 100 new cases and they said there were 50.
So it's NOT misleading.
You're being too literal, Draxx. Literally true numbers with omitted context can in fact be very misleading. Not saying that is the case here, but let's not just waive it away on the basis of "literal truth." That isn't the only variable that matters.
If a school sends an email home saying 1 kid in the elementary school tested positive, I fail to see how that could be misleading in any way. They're saying 1 kid tested positive...because 1 kid did.
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Well, if you're going to be all literal, then you have to take ALL of the words I wrote into consideration as well. I said, repeatedly, that I MAY be talking about the PARENTS REACTION not the emails themselves. So I'm meeting you both half way right out the gate. And I was VERY clear that I saw the problem as the disconnect between the message itself - which I never once ever even implied was false or not truthful - and the receipt of that message.
So, yea, apparently you're defining "misleading" as being "factually accurate or not" and that's a slightly different definition of "misleading" than I'm using. I'm not saying the email is false; I'm saying that the facts - accurate facts - in the email MAY, and I'd even say "LIKELY", result in reactions that are out of context with the simple idea of "reporting".
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So, yea, apparently you're defining "misleading" as being "factually accurate or not" and that's a slightly different definition of "misleading" than I'm using.
Not sure what you're using, but Meriam Webster says "to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit". So the only thing that matters is whether the info is factually accurate or not, and if not, if it was inaccurate purposefully. That's what it means to mislead someone.
I'm not saying the email is false; I'm saying that the facts - accurate facts - in the email MAY, and I'd even say "LIKELY", result in reactions that are out of context with the simple idea of "reporting".
Surely that falls on the people doing the reacting? And cannot be the fault of accurate information?
I'm not badgering you, I'm just mystified. You are normally quite precise with your word choice/definitions, and this strange interpretation of "misleading" is freaking me out.
If the car is red, and my only relation to the red car is to tell YOU that the car is red, then I haven't misled you in any way. If hearing the word "red" is a trigger to you, that's on you, not me.
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*awaits story about a blue tie* :biggrin:
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I think I know what Stadler is trying to say. Even though I’m not actually sure it applies in this instance.
I think the point he’s trying to get across is that if I flick a lighter and then shout out “there’s a fire in the building“ what I am saying is technically true. But it’s misleading people into thinking that the building is actually on fire.
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If I may jump in...
In this situation, what I think Stad means (correct me if I'm wrong) by misleading is that it doesn't pain the full picture, and maybe providing more information might help. Though I think that might cross the line of HIPAA regulations, so I think the most they can do is say the number of cases and leave it at that.
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Is it possible the idea of even reporting such infections is misleading? I'm not saying I believe that here (I dont), but maybe the idea of even reporting such issues broadly is misleading in and of itself. Being that I think, as of right now, it's still important to share some of this information so people can adjust their situations to their appropriate comfort level, but at some point covid is not going to be something we need to publicly report daily.
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Is it possible the idea of even reporting such infections is misleading? I'm not saying I believe that here (I dont), but maybe the idea of even reporting such issues broadly is misleading in and of itself. Being that I think, as of right now, it's still important to share some of this information so people can adjust their situations to their appropriate comfort level, but at some point covid is not going to be something we need to publicly report daily.
I don't think the emails are worded in a misleading manner. It's all based an individual's reaction to it. I get emails like this that are circulated from the landlord of the office building in the city. "A covid positive person was in the building on X day and was in the common areas and elevator banks."
My wife gets the emails from the school and has a more guttural reaction to it, thinking that there could be an outbreak or immediately being judgmental towards families in the school district.
I do agree that reporting cases probably needs to go away. It seems like it's based on avoiding potential liability more than anything else. Like I said earlier this morning, there is no way of containing covid any longer. Families, businesses and schools need to learn to live with it. A middle school in my district closed a week ahead of Thanksgiving break because they had more than 10 kids in the school test positive. Remote school for a week plus a week off for Thanksgiving - maybe that's a nice little "reset" to see if kids are healthier upon return. Pivot to that should cases increase, but stop the official notices, outside of contact tracing for close contact individuals.
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So, yea, apparently you're defining "misleading" as being "factually accurate or not" and that's a slightly different definition of "misleading" than I'm using.
I'd say that your definitition of "misleading" is um..misleading. ;D
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Man, how'd we get off on this tangent? All this talk of misleading emails and such. Point the guy out. I want a few misleading words with'em.
Oh, wait..........
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If I may jump in...
In this situation, what I think Stad means (correct me if I'm wrong) by misleading is that it doesn't pain the full picture, and maybe providing more information might help. Though I think that might cross the line of HIPAA regulations, so I think the most they can do is say the number of cases and leave it at that.
And this:
Is it possible the idea of even reporting such infections is misleading? I'm not saying I believe that here (I dont), but maybe the idea of even reporting such issues broadly is misleading in and of itself. Being that I think, as of right now, it's still important to share some of this information so people can adjust their situations to their appropriate comfort level, but at some point covid is not going to be something we need to publicly report daily.
These are where I'm parked. I think this is a case of truthful, accurate information living in a silo and (potentially) leading to BAD decisions by people who don't have full perspective, or don't have OTHER, also truthful, also accurate information that impacts that decision making.
But I have to say, maybe it's me, maybe I'm in a mood because I'm tired (travel across three time zones in three days), anxious (family issues) and anger (another, different family issue), but for fuck's sake. I agreed with you all; I copped to a different meaning to "misleading", acknowledged that we can all be right here, and some of you are STILL arguing with me. What do you want? Me to admit I'm wrong? Sure, I'm wrong. It's not misleading. It is very accurate, not misleading information that, in my opinion and possibly contrary to the consensus here, may possibly lead people to make other, bad decisions. Does that make anyone feel better? :P
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Stads, would you say a school would be more honest because if they didn't follow protocols there would be a huge outcry.
The government, not so much because no one trusts the government.
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Stads, would you say a school would be more honest because if they didn't follow protocols there would be a huge outcry.
The government, not so much because no one trusts the government.
Of course there would be outcry. We need our institutions to hold our hand and make the world rainbows and candy. ;) I'm kidding.
I was responding to fairly narrow slice of all that. I'm not a fan of most of America's CYA when it comes to this stuff, and I have a chip on my shoulder about my colleagues that promulgate that mentality. I literally watched an ad today while cooking dinner (Gould Injury Law, in case anyone cares) where the guy said if you fell and hurt yourself, someone MUST have done something wrong. Well, no. Shit happens. People fall. People get sick. People get hurt. Sometimes, god forbid, people die. Not everything has to result in a lawsuit and a payday.
I was just responding to the notion that at some point, this virus has to stop being COVID!!! and has to become just Covid. We're not going to get there by making every case newsworthy and having every parent wrapping their kid in tinfoil and cellophane after every email announcing every case. That was really it. I could have been ranting about the media just as easily. I know what they are doing and why they are doing it, I just don't think it's as harmless as a piece of paper.
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I get that but right now, seems premature. I'll assume it took a long time with the flu though I've never read up on it.
Trust me, I have fatigue as well.
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Getting the booster next Thursday after work. Hoping it doesn't kick my ass like the 2nd shot did back in April.
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I was just tired Kev after my booster.
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Getting the booster next Thursday after work. Hoping it doesn't kick my ass like the 2nd shot did back in April.
What brand did you get? I got the Pfizer vaccine. The 2nd shot wasn't any worse than the first. :dunno:
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Getting the booster next Thursday after work. Hoping it doesn't kick my ass like the 2nd shot did back in April.
What brand did you get? I got the Pfizer vaccine. The 2nd shot wasn't any worse than the first. :dunno:
That's been my experience - everyone I know that had the Pfizer shots had a sore arm and some mild tiredness at the most. My boss received the Moderna shots and the second and third ones knocked him on his ass for a good day or two.
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I had Phizer..
First shot: no issues
Second shot: Fatigue in the morning three days later
Boostah: No issues
My arm was way more sore getting my flu shot a few weeks ago.
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I got Moderna:
First Shot - nothing
Second Shot - kill me
Booster - nothing
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Moderna
1st shot - Tired
2nd shot - Flu like for 2 days
Booster shot - Tired.
Got my 1st shingles shot with the flu shot this year. The Shingles shot hurt my arm the most.
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Pfizer
1 shot - Arm sore on day 1, slept a lot on the Sunday, felt really crummy on the Monday, and then felt a lot better on the Tuesday
2 shot - Again, soreness on day 1. Slept a lot on Sunday, felt a lot better on Monday
Booster shot - Got it on 12/01 on a Wednesday. Felt fine. Then I felt really crummy on Thursday afternoon. Then I powered through on Friday and Saturday and then I felt really crummy on Sunday. Felt better since.
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J&J
First shot, fatigue 24 hours after the shot for about 12 hours
Booster shot, nothing
My sister got a Pfizer booster and her arm blew up. Super swollen with a huge bruise. It was very noticeable. But she said no other side effects.
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They won't do this for the Covid shots but for flu and shingles get those shots in your gluteal muscles. As we all walk around and move those large muscles the uptake is faster into your body and there is much less soreness.
I have also done this with tetanus boosters and it works great.
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I got Moderna for all 3 and was very lucky and didn't have side effects for any of them.
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I got Moderna:
First Shot - Tired/Crashed
Second Shot - kill me
Booster - nothing
Slight edit on the first shot.
Turns out the Moderna dosage and counts are way higher than Pfizer which is probably why side effects might have been worse. Once I found out the booster was a half dose I knew it wouldn't be bad. I think it was still bigger than a full Pfizer dose. I realize they are different, but just guessing.
Ah, found a story that documents the difference. Moderna blasts you with a lot more.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/10/pfizer-moderna-dose-which-vaccine-best/620501/
Comparing doses of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines is much easier, since their mechanisms are so similar. Each shot of Moderna delivers more than three times as much of the active ingredient, compared with Pfizer, and seems to induce a higher antibody count and lead to more durable protection against infection and hospitalization. “Over time, that higher dose might be what is driving the difference in protective efficacy,” John Moore, a microbiology and immunology professor at Weill Cornell Medicine, told me.
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Pfizer for all three, and just a sore arm each time
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I had Astrazeneca for my first two doses. First dose, I was achy and tired and had a headache. Second dose wasn’t too bad.
I had Pfizer for my booster two days ago. The booster was the worst dose for me. I felt dreadful yesterday and still don’t feel 100% today. Extremely sore arm, headache, muscle aches, and chills.
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I was just tired Kev after my booster.
I am always tired, so that won't make any difference for me. :lol >:(
Getting the booster next Thursday after work. Hoping it doesn't kick my ass like the 2nd shot did back in April.
What brand did you get? I got the Pfizer vaccine. The 2nd shot wasn't any worse than the first. :dunno:
Pfizer.
The first shot gave me a sore arm, but the second shot effects kicked in about 22 hours later, and for about a full day, it felt like a train had run over me. And then just like that it was gone.
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https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/10/us/new-york-mask-mandate-covid/index.html
The New York governor has Ruled that everyone must wear masks or show proof of vaccination from December 13 to January 15. I do not know how they plan to enforce this or if businesses will even bother trying. This really fucking blows for Herrick. My employer recently forced me to get the Plauge Shots and I thought, "At least I won't have to wear a mask in a fucking 7-11 or Target anymore."
I always wore a mask in NY even when The Plauge Shots came around and people didn't have to wear masks because businesses weren't requiring Plague Shot proof. Oh well. Back to wearing a mask everywhere :(
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https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/10/us/new-york-mask-mandate-covid/index.html
The New York governor has Ruled that everyone must wear masks or show proof of vaccination from December 13 to January 15. I do not know how they plan to enforce this or if businesses will even bother trying. This really fucking blows for Herrick. My employer recently forced me to get the Plauge Shots and I thought, "At least I won't have to wear a mask in a fucking 7-11 or Target anymore."
I always wore a mask in NY even when The Plauge Shots came around and people didn't have to wear masks because businesses weren't requiring Plague Shot proof. Oh well. Back to wearing a mask everywhere :(
I mean, I got mine April, and feel like I've felt the same disappointment. When does it end? When do we, as society, step back from the ledge, realize this thing isn't the bubonic plague, and just move on with life?
We're leading the world in both cases and deaths despite having the very best access to vaccines and (as far as I can tell) reasonable amounts of ability to mask and limit gatherings. If I believed we could, as the Chinese or New Zealanders did, just shut the whole thing down for a few months until cases hit 0 I'd be open to it, but that's never going to happen, a bridge that was crossed long ago.
I've been one of the first I know in line to wear masks, work from home, get the vaccine, and cancel/limit gatherings, but at this point, I'm just feeling fucked with. What else can people really be expected to do?
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https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/10/us/new-york-mask-mandate-covid/index.html
The New York governor has Ruled that everyone must wear masks or show proof of vaccination from December 13 to January 15. I do not know how they plan to enforce this or if businesses will even bother trying. This really fucking blows for Herrick. My employer recently forced me to get the Plauge Shots and I thought, "At least I won't have to wear a mask in a fucking 7-11 or Target anymore."
I always wore a mask in NY even when The Plauge Shots came around and people didn't have to wear masks because businesses weren't requiring Plague Shot proof. Oh well. Back to wearing a mask everywhere :(
I mean, I got mine April, and feel like I've felt the same disappointment. When does it end? When do we, as society, step back from the ledge, realize this thing isn't the bubonic plague, and just move on with life?
We're leading the world in both cases and deaths despite having the very best access to vaccines and (as far as I can tell) reasonable amounts of ability to mask and limit gatherings. If I believed we could, as the Chinese or New Zealanders did, just shut the whole thing down for a few months until cases hit 0 I'd be open to it, but that's never going to happen, a bridge that was crossed long ago.
I've been one of the first I know in line to wear masks, work from home, get the vaccine, and cancel/limit gatherings, but at this point, I'm just feeling fucked with. What else can people really be expected to do?
We're 20th on both metrics when adjusted for population, in case anyone cares.
But I'm right there with you elsewise; the virus has consistently, over two years, defied the "common wisdom", and while most of the measures other than the vaccines are really just improving one's odds, there's no real way, in my opinion, to judge how much odds' improvement there is in any particular situation.
I believe we're getting close to the point where this is handled like a flu scenario, where it's on the person to take the precautions they feel okay with.
I think first and foremost, I think the media needs to start dialing it back in terms of the reporting. We don't, at this point, need to know every single case that comes down the pike.
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https://nypost.com/2021/12/13/colorado-gov-jared-polis-declares-covid-19-emergency-over-despite-omicron/ (https://nypost.com/2021/12/13/colorado-gov-jared-polis-declares-covid-19-emergency-over-despite-omicron/)
To go along what Skeever said, this is where I'm at and have been basically since everyone had access to vaccines. We need to move on with life. I feel like for the most part back home in NJ we have. Masks are only mandated on public transportation and in school, everything else is 100% "normal". Here in Germany I have to show my vaccine at every single establishment I want to enter and in The Netherlands everything shuts down super early. Those who chose not to get vaccinated, that's their decision and society needs to move on. We can't protect those who chose not to be protected and we certainly shouldn't bend over backwards for such people.
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I agree with the last three posts.
I wonder how many anti-vaccine people who have been hospitalized by The Plague and survived have gotten The Shots afterwards.
And just to clarify, I was never anti-vaccine. I just never got it because I didn't think I needed it and I'm super lazy when it comes to getting medical stuff done. For example, a couple months ago I had a lump on the left side of my throat and didn't bother getting it checked out. Luckily, it went away.
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We need to move on with life. I feel like for the most part back home in NJ we have. Masks are only mandated on public transportation and in school, everything else is 100% "normal". Here in Germany I have to show my vaccine at every single establishment I want to enter and in The Netherlands everything shuts down super early. Those who chose not to get vaccinated, that's their decision and society needs to move on. We can't protect those who chose not to be protected and we certainly shouldn't bend over backwards for such people.
It's in the ethics of medicine to treat anyone as equal as possible, regardless of their actions (or lack thereof) to maintain their health. Any established society can't "move on" as long as this disease keeps compromising healthcare systems. Omicron has forced a restrictions revamp in many European countries due to it's high contagion rate. If a government stops taking necessary measures to slow down the spread then mortality rises, either directly from Covid or indirectly because people die from other illnesses.
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We need to move on with life. I feel like for the most part back home in NJ we have. Masks are only mandated on public transportation and in school, everything else is 100% "normal". Here in Germany I have to show my vaccine at every single establishment I want to enter and in The Netherlands everything shuts down super early. Those who chose not to get vaccinated, that's their decision and society needs to move on. We can't protect those who chose not to be protected and we certainly shouldn't bend over backwards for such people.
It's in the ethics of medicine to treat anyone as equal as possible, regardless of their actions (or lack thereof) to maintain their health. Any established society can't "move on" as long as this disease keeps compromising healthcare systems. Omicron has forced a restrictions revamp in many European countries due to it's high contagion rate. If a government stops taking necessary measures to slow down the spread then mortality rises, either directly from Covid or indirectly because people die from other illnesses.
But this goes directly to what I've said: COVID has defied "wisdom" every step of the way. If there's one message in ALL of this COVID nonsense - and it's a message that is not going to be learned, I can promise you that - is that "man plans, and God laughs". California has some of the most restrictive procedures in the country, and Florida, is, by most accounts, the Wild Wild West when it comes to restrictions.... and their numbers are relatively consistent in terms of cases and deaths per capita. We've had several outbreaks - one famous one was in the midwest - and they didn't conform to either the patterns of restrictions, or the pattern of compliance to recommendations.
I'm not saying that we don't do restrictions, but that we hold those restrictions in some perspective; they are improving the odds, they are not absolutes.
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I'm not saying that we don't do restrictions, but that we hold those restrictions in some perspective; they are improving the odds, they are not absolutes.
Bingo. Everything is about improving odds. By way of comparison, all rules (laws) of the road and car safety are simply about improving odds / reducing risk. Something as basic as painted lanes, windshield wipers, stop signs/lights ... all in place to just have everyone operate from the same set of principles/standards to reduce the risk of injury/death from a car accident. Societally, we need to get to that point with COVID, but still just being 2 years into this generation's first global pandemic, the heightened state of alert that we are (for the most part) still feeling lingers on.
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We need to move on with life. I feel like for the most part back home in NJ we have. Masks are only mandated on public transportation and in school, everything else is 100% "normal". Here in Germany I have to show my vaccine at every single establishment I want to enter and in The Netherlands everything shuts down super early. Those who chose not to get vaccinated, that's their decision and society needs to move on. We can't protect those who chose not to be protected and we certainly shouldn't bend over backwards for such people.
It's in the ethics of medicine to treat anyone as equal as possible, regardless of their actions (or lack thereof) to maintain their health. Any established society can't "move on" as long as this disease keeps compromising healthcare systems. Omicron has forced a restrictions revamp in many European countries due to it's high contagion rate. If a government stops taking necessary measures to slow down the spread then mortality rises, either directly from Covid or indirectly because people die from other illnesses.
But this goes directly to what I've said: COVID has defied "wisdom" every step of the way. If there's one message in ALL of this COVID nonsense - and it's a message that is not going to be learned, I can promise you that - is that "man plans, and God laughs". California has some of the most restrictive procedures in the country, and Florida, is, by most accounts, the Wild Wild West when it comes to restrictions.... and their numbers are relatively consistent in terms of cases and deaths per capita. We've had several outbreaks - one famous one was in the midwest - and they didn't conform to either the patterns of restrictions, or the pattern of compliance to recommendations.
I'm not saying that we don't do restrictions, but that we hold those restrictions in some perspective; they are improving the odds, they are not absolutes.
That's my point. Humans have a false belief that they can control and dominate the world. Covid is proving that. Humans can make predictions, prophecies, and make models about the future, but Nature will prove them wrong. False prophets play on people's fear and know how to manipulate them into following their control, order, and rule.
Humans can do everything to improve their odds of not dying. But If death is a part of Nature, you're trying to toy with and mess with nature. Chinese tried inventing an elixer for a longer life, yet guess what happened. Nature turned it around and they created one of the most destructive things that doesn't enhance life, it takes it away...that is Gun Powder.
Most Indigenous cultures understand humans can not control the world. There's a few cultures and this is their leaders, who believe that false ideal that humans can dominate the world.
This is why I say, if the government really cared about peoples health. They would be this adamant about the very things that are causing the health conditions that make us susceptible to diseases. What is causing heart disease, diabetes, obesity? Why isn't the government enacting mandates to pretty much remedy these health issues?
I can take a guess and say it's because of industrialization. These sicknesses are the consequences of mass production so we humans can live in simplicity. The destruction of the ecosystem that we humans rely upon for our sustenance can make us unhealthy because the soil, water, and air is toxic.
Why isn't the government addressing this or doing studies to prove whether industrialization is or isn't causing health issues for every organism in this planet?
I can take another guess and say it's because industrialization businesses dominate and control the world.
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I'm not saying that we don't do restrictions, but that we hold those restrictions in some perspective; they are improving the odds, they are not absolutes.
Bingo. Everything is about improving odds. By way of comparison, all rules (laws) of the road and car safety are simply about improving odds / reducing risk.
And statistics are saying your chance of dying in an auto accident are higher than covid if you are vaccinated. We can only restrict so much before the balance tips in favor of hurting society vs benfitting.
It's in the ethics of medicine to treat anyone as equal as possible, regardless of their actions (or lack thereof) to maintain their health.
I think unvaccinated people should and have been given the same equal treatment. But we shouldn't shut down society at this point. We can protect the most vulnerable without stopping business and locking people down.
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The more I hear and read about Omicron, the more I feel like we're practically starting all over again.
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/omicron-thrives-airways-not-lungs-new-data-asymptomatic-cases-2021-12-15/
Omicron thrives in airways, not lungs; new data on asymptomatic cases
Major differences in how efficiently Omicron and other variants of the coronavirus multiply may help predict Omicron's effects, researchers said on Wednesday. Compared to the earlier Delta variant, Omicron multiplies itself 70 times more quickly in tissues that line airway passages, which may facilitate person-to-person spread, they said. But in lung tissues, Omicron replicates 10 times more slowly than the original version of the coronavirus, which might contribute to less-severe illness.
Omicron grips cells more tightly, withstands some antibodies
A structural model of how the Omicron variant attaches to cells and antibodies sheds light on its behavior and will help in designing neutralizing antibodies, according to researchers.
Using computer models of the spike protein on Omicron's surface, they analyzed molecular interactions occurring when the spike grabs onto a cell-surface protein called ACE2, the virus's gateway into the cell. Metaphorically, the original virus had a handshake with ACE2, but Omicron's grip "looks more like a couple holding hands with their fingers entwined," said Joseph Lubin of Rutgers University in New Jersey. The "molecular anatomy" of the grip may assist in explaining how Omicron's mutations cooperate to help it infect cells, Lubin added.
The research team also modeled the spike with different classes of antibodies trying to attack it. The antibodies attack from different angles, "like a football team's defense might tackle a ball carrier," with one person grabbing from behind, another from the front, Lubin said. Some antibodies "appear likely to get shaken off" while others are likely to remain effective. Booster vaccines raise antibody levels, resulting in "more defenders," which might compensate to some extent for "a weaker grip of an individual antibody," Lubin said.
The findings, posted on Monday on the website bioRxiv ahead of peer review, need to be verified, "particularly with real-world samples from people,"
Here in Ontario, the case count is doubling every 2-3 days right now, and 60%+ of the cases are from VACCINATED individuals. With an R value >4, even if it results in less-severe illness, the shear magnitude of cases could still overwhelm the hospital system again. I'm not suggesting we're headed to lockdowns, but by all means, this has the potential of being the worse wave yet. Many countries are breaking new records as to the daily case counts.
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I read an article yesterday from a doctor that contracted covid from a wedding. People wore masks during the ceremony in the church, but had them off during the reception. She indicated that blaming the unvaccinated for prolonging the pandemic isn't correct - it's now becoming more of the vaccinated people causing the spread, explaining that protections from vaccines and masks are like pieces of swiss cheese. Each piece has holes - but when you layer them together, you get fuller coverage.
Her belief was that vaccinated people that do not wear masks is increasing the spread of covid. The doctor said that had she worn a mask during the reception, she would not have contracted covid.
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I stumbled on to this from The Atlantic.
THIS ARTICLE IS WORTH THE READ!!!
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/12/america-omicron-variant-surge-booster/621027/
Here are some excerpts... and yes, I know this is long - but it's important. Shit is gonna go sideways pretty quick.
Given what scientists have learned in the three weeks since Omicron’s discovery, “some of the absolute worst-case scenarios that were possible when we saw its genome are off the table, but so are some of the most hopeful scenarios,”
America is not prepared for Omicron. <jingle.boy note … most countries weren’t prepared / didn’t prepare for wave 1 or 2 or Alpha, or Delta, so why should this be any different?>
The variant’s threat is far greater at the societal level than at the personal one.
Like the variants that preceded it, Omicron requires individuals to think and act for the collective good—which is to say, it poses a heightened version of the same challenge that the U.S. has failed for two straight years, in bipartisan fashion.
One early study suggests that antibodies in vaccinated people are about 40 times worse at neutralizing Omicron than the original virus.
The implications of that decline are still uncertain, but three simple principles should likely hold.
- First, the bad news: In terms of catching the virus, everyone should assume that they are less protected than they were two months ago. someone who’s been boosted has the same ballpark level of protection against Omicron infection as a vaccinated-but-unboosted person did against Delta
- Second, some worse news: Boosting isn’t a foolproof shield against Omicron. boosted Americans made up a third of the first known Omicron cases in the U.S. “People who thought that they wouldn’t have to worry about infection this winter if they had their booster do still have to worry about infection with Omicron,”
- Third, some better news: Even if Omicron has an easier time infecting vaccinated individuals, it should still have more trouble causing severe disease. The variant might sneak past the initial antibody blockade, but slower-acting branches of the immune system (such as T cells) should eventually mobilize to clear it before it wreaks too much havoc.
it’s reasonable to treat Omicron as a setback but not a catastrophe for most vaccinated people.
That’s for individuals, though. At a societal level, the outlook is bleaker.
it has already overtaken Delta as the dominant variant in South Africa. Soon, it will likely do the same in Scotland and Denmark. Even the U.S. has detected Omicron in 35 states. “I think that a large Omicron wave is baked in,”
More positively, Omicron cases have thus far been relatively mild. This pattern has fueled the widespread claim that the variant might be less severe, or even that its rapid spread could be a welcome development. “People are saying ‘Let it rip’ and ‘It’ll help us build more immunity,’ that this is the exit wave and everything’s going to be fine and rosy after,” Richard Lessells, an infectious-disease physician at the University of KwaZulu-Natal, in South Africa, told me. “I have no confidence in that.”
that argument overlooks a key dynamic: Omicron might not actually be intrinsically milder.
And even if Omicron is milder, greater transmissibility will likely trump that reduced virulence. Omicron is spreading so quickly that a small proportion of severe cases could still flood hospitals.
The Omicron wave won’t completely topple America’s wall of immunity but will seep into its many cracks and weaknesses. It will find the 39 percent of Americans who are still not fully vaccinated (including 28 percent of adults and 13 percent of over-65s).
Here, then, is the problem: People who are unlikely to be hospitalized by Omicron might still feel reasonably protected, but they can spread the virus to those who are more vulnerable, quickly enough to seriously batter an already collapsing health-care system that will then struggle to care for anyone—vaccinated, boosted, or otherwise. The collective threat is substantially greater than the individual one. And the U.S. is ill-poised to meet it.
With a little time, the mRNA vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna could be updated, but “my suspicion is that once we have an Omicron-specific booster, the wave will be past,”
The longer-term future is uncertain. After Delta’s emergence, it became clear that the coronavirus was too transmissible to fully eradicate. Omicron could potentially shunt us more quickly toward a different endgame—endemicity, the point when humanity has gained enough immunity to hold the virus in a tenuous stalemate—albeit at significant cost.
For all the mutations in Omicron’s spike, it actually has fewer mutations in the rest of its proteins than Delta did. The virus might still have many new forms to take.
Vaccines can’t be the only strategy. The rest of the pandemic playbook remains unchanged and necessary: paid sick leave and other policies that protect essential workers, better masks, improved ventilation, rapid tests, places where sick people can easily isolate, social distancing, a stronger public-health system, and ways of retaining the frayed health-care workforce. The U.S. has consistently dropped the ball on many of these, betting that vaccines alone could get us out of the pandemic.
Individualism couldn’t beat Delta, it won’t beat Omicron, and it won’t beat the rest of the Greek alphabet to come. Self-interest is self-defeating, and as long as its hosts ignore that lesson, the virus will keep teaching it.
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I think a lot of people either view "beating" the virus as the wrong standard or have a different definition of what that means than that author.
As for the rest of it, the data is not really unexpected, so I am not really sure what to take from it. I mean, "Get your booster. It is helpful. Continue taking other reasonable precautions, because they also help reduce the spread." Good reminder, I guess? :dunno: We already know that.
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Apple announced today that it's suspending its February return to work order indefinitely, and giving all employees a grand to set up work from home capabilities. So glad my company does automated cars and can't work from home.
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I think a lot of people either view "beating" the virus as the wrong standard or have a different definition of what that means than that author.
As for the rest of it, the data is not really unexpected, so I am not really sure what to take from it. I mean, "Get your booster. It is helpful. Continue taking other reasonable precautions, because they also help reduce the spread." Good reminder, I guess? :dunno: We already know that.
Do you (royal) though? Almost 40% of the US is not fully vax'd. I'd be curious to know how many fully vax'd people in the US regularly mask in public? No slight to anyone, but many DTFrs have proudly proclaimed their joy at being maskless. And per the article I cited, at least 1/2 of all US states have LAWS against mask mandates. Guess what people, as Grappler said, it's the vaccinated that are contracting and spreading Omicron. This variant has gotten stronger against our vaccines.
Though I do agree to your first part. I didn't copy/paste the part about avoiding hospitalization/death should not be the standard of success. Even "mild" cases have the potential for individual consequences, let alone the societal ones associated with a spread R value over 4 (at least, here in Ontario at the moment).
Apple announced today that it's suspending its February return to work order indefinitely, and giving all employees a grand to set up work from home capabilities. So glad my company does automated cars and can't work from home.
I'm seeing company after company (including my own) suspend or delay their back-to-office plans.
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I think a lot of people either view "beating" the virus as the wrong standard or have a different definition of what that means than that author.
As for the rest of it, the data is not really unexpected, so I am not really sure what to take from it. I mean, "Get your booster. It is helpful. Continue taking other reasonable precautions, because they also help reduce the spread." Good reminder, I guess? :dunno: We already know that.
Do you (royal) though? Almost 40% of the US is not fully vax'd. I'd be curious to know how many fully vax'd people in the US regularly mask in public? No slight to anyone, but many DTFrs have proudly proclaimed their joy at being maskless. And per the article I cited, at least 1/2 of all US states have LAWS against mask mandates. Guess what people, as Grappler said, it's the vaccinated that are contracting and spreading Omicron. This variant has gotten stronger against our vaccines.
Though I do agree to your first part. I didn't copy/paste the part about avoiding hospitalization/death should not be the standard of success. Even "mild" cases have the potential for individual consequences, let alone the societal ones associated with a spread R value over 4 (at least, here in Ontario at the moment).
Be careful of your language though; has it gotten STRONGER or more resistant but in a milder form? We can have 330 million people contract COVID, if it's a strain that gives you a momentary bout of gas. The idea was to avoid the burden on the hospitals, and to alleviate the other, consequential losses from missed work, etc.
I know three people that have contracted COVID in the last month or so, and all three were relatively mild cases. Missed work, but no hint of "hospital" or any of the dire consequences that were prevalent early on. That MAY be our new reality.
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I think a lot of people either view "beating" the virus as the wrong standard or have a different definition of what that means than that author.
As for the rest of it, the data is not really unexpected, so I am not really sure what to take from it. I mean, "Get your booster. It is helpful. Continue taking other reasonable precautions, because they also help reduce the spread." Good reminder, I guess? :dunno: We already know that.
Do you (royal) though? ...
Yes, I think so. A lot may choose to ignore it, or to not subjectively feel, to varying degrees, that some or all of those precautions are really necessary. But, again, nothing that was said is really surprising or inconsistent with what we already [collectively] knew about the virus in general.
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The NYT had a daily piece on omicron as well. It was a bit less doom and gloom than the Atlantic. It's still a lot of wait and see IMO. It's almost for sure that omicron is not any worse than previous variants. It may be less severe, data suggests that so far but its still early (NYT states early studies show the virus does not replicate as much in the lungs as delta did). However, there's no doubt this is more contagious and currently spreading like wildfire even among the vaccinated. The vaccines are showing to be less effective agains this variant PLUS vaccines have been losing effectiveness over time it seems. This combo is going to lead to more breakthrough cases than we saw with delta, but protection from severe illness and death STILL seems very strong from the vaccines. Add in a booster, and you have pretty good protection overall. Not perfect by any means but still not a reason to think this wave is going to be worse than what we've seen (in terms of deaths and locking everything down). Granted, that could change, but right now it seems like a lot of people are and are going to get sick but not deathly ill. It's going to come down if those with some immunity (natural or vaccinated) can stay out of the hospital and those without immunity get a milder illness from this variant. That so far seems to be the case. The most vulnerable are still the most vulnerable here (older, immunocompromised, unvaccinated).
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I think a lot of people either view "beating" the virus as the wrong standard or have a different definition of what that means than that author.
As for the rest of it, the data is not really unexpected, so I am not really sure what to take from it. I mean, "Get your booster. It is helpful. Continue taking other reasonable precautions, because they also help reduce the spread." Good reminder, I guess? :dunno: We already know that.
Do you (royal) though? Almost 40% of the US is not fully vax'd. I'd be curious to know how many fully vax'd people in the US regularly mask in public? No slight to anyone, but many DTFrs have proudly proclaimed their joy at being maskless. And per the article I cited, at least 1/2 of all US states have LAWS against mask mandates. Guess what people, as Grappler said, it's the vaccinated that are contracting and spreading Omicron. This variant has gotten stronger against our vaccines.
Though I do agree to your first part. I didn't copy/paste the part about avoiding hospitalization/death should not be the standard of success. Even "mild" cases have the potential for individual consequences, let alone the societal ones associated with a spread R value over 4 (at least, here in Ontario at the moment).
Be careful of your language though; has it gotten STRONGER or more resistant but in a milder form? We can have 330 million people contract COVID, if it's a strain that gives you a momentary bout of gas. The idea was to avoid the burden on the hospitals, and to alleviate the other, consequential losses from missed work, etc.
I know three people that have contracted COVID in the last month or so, and all three were relatively mild cases. Missed work, but no hint of "hospital" or any of the dire consequences that were prevalent early on. That MAY be our new reality.
Well, either you skipped this part of the article / my post, or you skipped the whole thing (:biggrin:) so I'll copy it again.
"And even if Omicron is milder, greater transmissibility will likely trump that reduced virulence. Omicron is spreading so quickly that a small proportion of severe cases could still flood hospitals."
And if those 3 people spread it to 12 more, to 48 more, to 192 more within a span of a couple of weeks... are all of those just going to have a "mild" case.
@ Cram ... I read that too (and posted it above). Omicron is replicates 10x slower in the lungs; but 70x more quickly in the airways.
The most vulnerable are still the most vulnerable here (older, immunocompromised, unvaccinated).
Exactly... and there's a shit-ton of those people in the US. Lots up here too, but not as much given our roughly 82% of total population with at least 1 dose
I'll just way what I repeatedly said back in Feb '20 - time will tell. But there are a lot of warning signs.
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Got the booster about two hours ago. I now await that feeling tomorrow where I feel like a train ran over me. :eek :eek :lol :lol
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South Africa is preliminarily reporting a significant decrease in fatality rate amidst the omicron surge compared to delta, it's gone down to 0,5% from 3,0%. This is believed to be a result of the country's age structure and vaccines still being fairly effective against severe cases.
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South Africa is preliminarily reporting a significant decrease in fatality rate amidst the omicron surge compared to delta, it's gone down to 0,5% from 3,0%. This is believed to be a result of the country's age structure and vaccines still being fairly effective against severe cases.
... And that they had fairly high levels of infection based immunity from the previous strains. I just saw a headline that SA's case counts may be "plateauing" - although, still higher than any other point during the pandemic. The four countries that are breaking records at the moment:
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AARUwb9.img?w=768&h=537&m=6)
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Really can't post about this anywhere else for obvious reasons, but I did a Xmas party last night for a medium sized (600ppl) account of ours last night. Now, our company followed all strict protocols of the SF area as best we could, but the clients we served...it was scary. Granted, the company requires everyone to be fully vaxxed, but once the drinks started flowing, the masks disappeared, the hugs were plentiful, and social distancing was non existent. It was basically a pre covid party atmosphere. (and they had reasons to party since every employee got a grand as a xmas bonus). Personally very curious to see if there's a spike in cases from this event, I know most of the staff that handles this account on the regular, so I'll get real time info on it.
Also it'll be interesting to see how this season fares in less vaxxed areas, especially with omicron gaining traction.
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Really can't post about this anywhere else for obvious reasons, but I did a Xmas party last night for a medium sized (600ppl) account of ours last night. Now, our company followed all strict protocols of the SF area as best we could, but the clients we served...it was scary. Granted, the company requires everyone to be fully vaxxed, but once the drinks started flowing, the masks disappeared, the hugs were plentiful, and social distancing was non existent. It was basically a pre covid party atmosphere. (and they had reasons to party since every employee got a grand as a xmas bonus). Personally very curious to see if there's a spike in cases from this event, I know most of the staff that handles this account on the regular, so I'll get real time info on it.
Also it'll be interesting to see how this season fares in less vaxxed areas, especially with omicron gaining traction.
Doesn't sound any different than going to a concert these days. I've got tickets to see Clutch on the 28th, sold out 2k capacity GA ballroom. Vaccines only to get in, but with omicron, who knows it this will just spread throughout the venue if someone is carrying it. Either way, as long as it happens and I'm not sick, I expect to be there and take that risk.
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Got the booster about two hours ago. I now await that feeling tomorrow where I feel like a train ran over me. :eek :eek :lol :lol
Hope the 3rd time is a charm. ;) I think I have to wait 3 months for mine (Feb 19th).
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Some of the new cases in NYC are being linked to SantaCon, which was a little less than 2 weeks ago.
Not sure if Santacon is just a NYC thing, but for those that don't know, Santacon is a day where a bunch of people dress like Santa, and go from bar to bar drinking starting at 10am. FWIW, part of it is also for charity (toy drive), but mainly the drinking and partying.
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Really can't post about this anywhere else for obvious reasons, but I did a Xmas party last night for a medium sized (600ppl) account of ours last night. Now, our company followed all strict protocols of the SF area as best we could, but the clients we served...it was scary. Granted, the company requires everyone to be fully vaxxed, but once the drinks started flowing, the masks disappeared, the hugs were plentiful, and social distancing was non existent. It was basically a pre covid party atmosphere. (and they had reasons to party since every employee got a grand as a xmas bonus). Personally very curious to see if there's a spike in cases from this event, I know most of the staff that handles this account on the regular, so I'll get real time info on it.
Also it'll be interesting to see how this season fares in less vaxxed areas, especially with omicron gaining traction.
Doesn't sound any different than going to a concert these days. I've got tickets to see Clutch on the 28th, sold out 2k capacity GA ballroom. Vaccines only to get in, but with omicron, who knows it this will just spread throughout the venue if someone is carrying it. Either way, as long as it happens and I'm not sick, I expect to be there and take that risk.
They had a karaoke room...about 40 people in a small, enclosed space, drunk as fuck singing Sweet Caroline at the top of their lungs without masks.
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Really can't post about this anywhere else for obvious reasons, but I did a Xmas party last night for a medium sized (600ppl) account of ours last night. Now, our company followed all strict protocols of the SF area as best we could, but the clients we served...it was scary. Granted, the company requires everyone to be fully vaxxed, but once the drinks started flowing, the masks disappeared, the hugs were plentiful, and social distancing was non existent. It was basically a pre covid party atmosphere. (and they had reasons to party since every employee got a grand as a xmas bonus). Personally very curious to see if there's a spike in cases from this event, I know most of the staff that handles this account on the regular, so I'll get real time info on it.
Also it'll be interesting to see how this season fares in less vaxxed areas, especially with omicron gaining traction.
Doesn't sound any different than going to a concert these days. I've got tickets to see Clutch on the 28th, sold out 2k capacity GA ballroom. Vaccines only to get in, but with omicron, who knows it this will just spread throughout the venue if someone is carrying it. Either way, as long as it happens and I'm not sick, I expect to be there and take that risk.
They had a karaoke room...about 40 people in a small, enclosed space, drunk as fuck singing Sweet Caroline at the top of their lungs without masks.
I will say that it kind of sucks to have to work in that environment, especially if you are uncomfortable, but it just doesn't sound that different than what's going on in most of the US. People are going to gather and party for the holidays. I'm missing my friend's christmas party on Saturday for example, like 30 people indoors drinking and eating, maskless and some aren't vaccinated. My friends in laws said they aren't comfortable now and may not go, and I think that's fine, but the party otherwise will go on.
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Relevant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J352V9rS880
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzPefGipSrU
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Got the booster about two hours ago. I now await that feeling tomorrow where I feel like a train ran over me. :eek :eek :lol :lol
Hope the 3rd time is a charm. ;) I think I have to wait 3 months for mine (Feb 19th).
Thanks. Today was not great, but it wasn't as bad as after the 2nd shot. That felt like I had been run over by a train. Today was just like a small car slightly dinged me. :lol
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NBA postpones 5 games
NHL suspends cross border games
NFL is only testing symptomatic people. SMFH.
I seriously feel Omicron has time warped us back to March 2020. The prevailing sense here is that it’s not a matter of IF you will catch it, but WHEN. Daily case counts here in Ontario are up as much as 10x in the last 6 weeks, and we’ll surpass the previous highest daily number before Santa arrives
Merry fucking Christmas. :-[ :-\ :sad:
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What difference does it make if the Islanders go to Toronto or to Buffalo? That's stupid.
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What difference does it make if the Islanders go to Toronto or to Buffalo? That's stupid.
Cmon man... the US knows a thing or two about nationalism and border restriction/controls :lol
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What difference does it make if the Islanders go to Toronto or to Buffalo? That's stupid.
Cmon man... the US knows a thing or two about nationalism and border restriction/controls :lol
Seriously though, I heard that and was like WTF? And it's not a bustin' on Canada thing. I just think it's fucking stupid.
So the Oilers can play in Montreal, but the Red Wings can't? Does that make any fucking sense?
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I just need to get on the plane back to the OC tomorrow afternoon and I can live with things shutting down again.
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The Netherlands expanded on their lockdowns yesterday, basically the place is empty and you can't do much of anything it seems. Crossing the border doesn't seem much different though other than now needing to take a test to enter the Netherlands (I got in without having to do so, in fact I didn't even show them my vaccine at customs and was only asked my status). I still need to take a test within 24 hours of leaving on Thursday.
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What difference does it make if the Islanders go to Toronto or to Buffalo? That's stupid.
Cmon man... the US knows a thing or two about nationalism and border restriction/controls :lol
Seriously though, I heard that and was like WTF? And it's not a bustin' on Canada thing. I just think it's fucking stupid.
So the Oilers can play in Montreal, but the Red Wings can't? Does that make any fucking sense?
To some degree, yes. The outbreaks in Canada are far more severe than they are in the US. We didn't start administering boosters until a few weeks ago - you guys were doing it in the summer. After thinking about it some more last night, it's probably more for the protection of the players on the US teams than the other way around. The spread in QB and ON is literally out of control
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What difference does it make if the Islanders go to Toronto or to Buffalo? That's stupid.
Cmon man... the US knows a thing or two about nationalism and border restriction/controls :lol
Seriously though, I heard that and was like WTF? And it's not a bustin' on Canada thing. I just think it's fucking stupid.
So the Oilers can play in Montreal, but the Red Wings can't? Does that make any fucking sense?
To some degree, yes. The outbreaks in Canada are far more severe than they are in the US. We didn't start administering boosters until a few weeks ago - you guys were doing it in the summer. After thinking about it some more last night, it's probably more for the protection of the players on the US teams than the other way around. The spread in QB and ON is literally out of control
Might actually be to just avoid testing players in/out of the country and causing more game cancellations
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^ Possibly, but the NHL did announce that they were going back to last year's policies regarding overall testing, masking, distancing, socializing etc... As one headline I saw this morning stated, "NFL, NBA, NHL resume protocols they should’ve never quit ..... It never made sense to relax protocols in any league where players and staff speak, sweat, spit, and evacuate themselves in communal settings. But, you know, freedoms."
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it’s not a matter of IF you will catch it, but WHEN.
That's always been the case.
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it’s not a matter of IF you will catch it, but WHEN.
That's always been the case.
Yeah, I've been saying that for a long time. You get vaccinated, you get covid, or both. Basically no one is escaping this, although I'm sure that's not 100% correct as there may be some people with some natural immunity, but even then, i'd imagine that immunity has or will be put to the test and it's certainly not worth the risk IMO to pretend that if you've made it this far without a vaccine or infection that you have natural immunity. Our bodies either have been or will be put to the covid test, best to be prepared with a full vaccine regiment and if it's been long enough since then, get a booster.
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it’s not a matter of IF you will catch it, but WHEN.
That's always been the case.
Yeah, I've been saying that for a long time. You get vaccinated, you get covid, or both. Basically no one is escaping this, although I'm sure that's not 100% correct as there may be some people with some natural immunity, but even then, i'd imagine that immunity has or will be put to the test and it's certainly not worth the risk IMO to pretend that if you've made it this far without a vaccine or infection that you have natural immunity. Our bodies either have been or will be put to the covid test, best to be prepared with a full vaccine regiment and if it's been long enough since then, get a booster.
How can the human body have natural immunity to a disease it has never encountered? I truly believe I had COVID and my body fought it off but do people consider that natural immunity because II don't. My body just learned how to adjust.
I'm not rebutting your post but it's always been a mystery when I see "natural immunity" i am always perplexed.
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it’s not a matter of IF you will catch it, but WHEN.
That's always been the case.
Yeah, I've been saying that for a long time. You get vaccinated, you get covid, or both. Basically no one is escaping this, although I'm sure that's not 100% correct as there may be some people with some natural immunity, but even then, i'd imagine that immunity has or will be put to the test and it's certainly not worth the risk IMO to pretend that if you've made it this far without a vaccine or infection that you have natural immunity. Our bodies either have been or will be put to the covid test, best to be prepared with a full vaccine regiment and if it's been long enough since then, get a booster.
How can the human body have natural immunity to a disease it has never encountered? I truly believe I had COVID and my body fought it off but do people consider that natural immunity because II don't. My body just learned how to adjust.
I'm not rebutting your post but it's always been a mystery when I see "natural immunity" i am always perplexed.
I think what you described is natural immunity, you fought it off without illness. At least that is my understanding. I could be wrong.
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I would assume, most athletes have very little issues with the virus but someone in my shape would.
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4571 new cases over 24 hours in Quebec, intensive care beds at 50% already. Schools (primary and secondary), movie theaters, bars, clubs, live venues, gyms, etc. all closed again. Restaurants still open at half capacity but only until 10pm.
For movie theaters (and to certain extent live shows) it's starting to feel off, there just hasn't been any evidence that they are big vectors of transmission ever since they reopened. I but suppose in the wide view it's just to hammer home the message of reducing your contacts with other people as much as possible. Still a bummer though.
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it’s not a matter of IF you will catch it, but WHEN.
That's always been the case.
Yeah, I've been saying that for a long time. You get vaccinated, you get covid, or both. Basically no one is escaping this, although I'm sure that's not 100% correct as there may be some people with some natural immunity, but even then, i'd imagine that immunity has or will be put to the test and it's certainly not worth the risk IMO to pretend that if you've made it this far without a vaccine or infection that you have natural immunity. Our bodies either have been or will be put to the covid test, best to be prepared with a full vaccine regiment and if it's been long enough since then, get a booster.
How can the human body have natural immunity to a disease it has never encountered? I truly believe I had COVID and my body fought it off but do people consider that natural immunity because II don't. My body just learned how to adjust.
I'm not rebutting your post but it's always been a mystery when I see "natural immunity" i am always perplexed.
I think what you described is natural immunity, you fought it off without illness. At least that is my understanding. I could be wrong.
That's what I thought it is too and why a human gets sick in the first place.
I thought it's because your immune system makes antibodies to fight off whatever your body is rejecting and doesn't want inside of it. And if you have underlying conditions or other health issues, it puts stress on the immune system as it's making more antibodies to fight off the priority illness, therefore neglecting the other health issues/underlying conditions and preventing those organs, or wherever the illness/underlying condition is from healing. Or at least not stressing the immune system so the health issues/underlying conditions are stable and tolerable, or go into remission. And I thought this is why those people can get worse and die if they do catch a more severe illness or disease.
Stress in general can affect your Immune System...
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/what-happens-when-your-immune-system-gets-stressed-out/
Stress occurs when life events surpass your abilities to cope. It causes your body to produce greater levels of the stress hormone cortisol.
In short spurts, cortisol can boost your immunity by limiting inflammation. But over time, your body can get used to having too much cortisol in your blood. And this opens the door for more inflammation, Dr. Calabrese says.
In addition, stress decreases the body’s lymphocytes — the white blood cells that help fight off infection. The lower your lymphocyte level, the more at risk you are for viruses, including the common cold and cold sores.
High stress levels also can cause depression and anxiety, again leading to higher levels of inflammation. In the long-term, sustained, high levels of inflammation point to an overworked, over-tired immune system that can’t properly protect you.
Under sustained, long-term stress, you also can develop cardiovascular problems, including a fast heart rate and heart disease, as well as gastric ulcers. You’ll also be at greater risk for type 2 diabetes, various cancers and mental decline.
There's many things that are happening that are causing more stress than alleviating it. I don't know why people aren't doing anything to de-stress if it can have that much of an affect on healing from a virus?
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It's like nobody remembered/learned from the first round of restrictions and shut downs. Actions taken now are not going to have an impact for at least 1-2 weeks. Individuals that test positive yesterday had their exposure probably a week+ ago. So, the point of what (for example) the QB gov't is doing now is so that cases don't go to 20k/day by the 2nd week of January. It's all but assured that QB (and Ontario for that matter) will be seeing 10k/day by end of the month.
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I truly believe people are still making a mountain out of a molehill of this. It's not the end of the world. Put on a mask and go about your lives as usual. All the tracking of numbers, cases etc... cool. You'd also probably be peeing your pants if you were tracking flu cases and deaths over the last few years or decades yeah? This thing isn't going anywhere so you might as well get busy living or get busy dying
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I truly believe people are still making a mountain out of a molehill of this. It's not the end of the world. Put on a mask and go about your lives as usual. All the tracking of numbers, cases etc... cool. You'd also probably be peeing your pants if you were tracking flu cases and deaths over the last few years or decades yeah? This thing isn't going anywhere so you might as well get busy living or get busy dying
Respectfully, this sort of thinking makes me cringe.
Ten years ago, when I was single, I'd probably have said the same thing, but with a wife and kids, I will reserve the right to make a mountain out of anything I believe is an imminent danger to my family.
My brother in law just spent 2 weeks in the ICU...is home now with an oxygen tank and a 400k hospital bill on the way. My sister tested positive last night, and she is scared to death. Comparing this to the flu is so off base I don't even know what else to say.
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It's like nobody remembered/learned from the first round of restrictions and shut downs. Actions taken now are not going to have an impact for at least 1-2 weeks. Individuals that test positive yesterday had their exposure probably a week+ ago. So, the point of what (for example) the QB gov't is doing now is so that cases don't go to 20k/day by the 2nd week of January. It's all but assured that QB (and Ontario for that matter) will be seeing 10k/day by end of the month.
Or maybe we DID learn, and that's why you're seeing what you are seeing now. Americans, maybe even Westerners to a large extent, will simply refuse to comply with lockdowns and will only tolerate restrictions so far. People see the statements of the WHO director and Fauci as almost farcical this point - what they are prescribing is just not conducive to life as anyone knows it. Rather than punishing people by shutting down or limiting services they rely on (at who knows what cost), better to just get on with life as safely as possible at this point.
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It's like nobody remembered/learned from the first round of restrictions and shut downs. Actions taken now are not going to have an impact for at least 1-2 weeks. Individuals that test positive yesterday had their exposure probably a week+ ago. So, the point of what (for example) the QB gov't is doing now is so that cases don't go to 20k/day by the 2nd week of January. It's all but assured that QB (and Ontario for that matter) will be seeing 10k/day by end of the month.
Or maybe we DID learn, and that's why you're seeing what you are seeing now. Americans, maybe even Westerners to a large extent, will simply refuse to comply with lockdowns and will only tolerate restrictions so far. People see the statements of the WHO director and Fauci as almost farcical this point - what they are prescribing is just not conducive to life as anyone knows it. Rather than punishing people by shutting down or limiting services they rely on (at who knows what cost), better to just get on with life as safely as possible at this point.
If the majority of people would only do that (the bolded part).
Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc... over the health, life, and livelihood of all. I'm sick of all this shit too, and wish to just be done with it. Sadly, the virus doesn't give any fucking fuck's about what I or anyone else wants. I'll live my life under the premise of what is real, not what I wish for.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CpIPLkxK-jI/WD3XxobP0gI/AAAAAAAAaYc/nbe98-qKLjYP64mXgvE6mkEsKuZZf0sUACLcB/s640/giphy-2.gif)
No use in ranting though. No one here (or elsewhere) is inclined to change their perspectives. Self interest is self defeating.
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Or maybe we DID learn, and that's why you're seeing what you are seeing now. Americans, maybe even Westerners to a large extent, will simply refuse to comply with lockdowns and will only tolerate restrictions so far. People see the statements of the WHO director and Fauci as almost farcical this point - what they are prescribing is just not conducive to life as anyone knows it. Rather than punishing people by shutting down or limiting services they rely on (at who knows what cost), better to just get on with life as safely as possible at this point.
I can agree with this. My wife watches too much news and listens to too much Fauci. She raced out to the store to stock up on at-home covid tests, and suggested that we all take a test prior to our family Christmas parties this weekend because it's what Fauci says families should do.
I just laughed and said "no, none of us are even sick." "But we could still be carrying the virus and transmitting it!" Sorry, I'm not taking a covid test if I don't have any symptoms.
I'm not against testing - I held my daughter down and made her take an at-home test the day before my son's birthday party in October, when she had cold symptoms, and people were coming over the next day. But if none of us are sick, wasting tests just to see if we're covid-positive and asymptomatic is silly.
I see some of the suggestions from local government (city and state) or Fauci and just shake my head - i've been in favor of this stuff in the past. Trying to control the spread now is impossible - it's up to people to stay healthy on their own. A family of four (with 3 fully vaccinated) does not need to covid test regularly.
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I truly believe people are still making a mountain out of a molehill of this. It's not the end of the world. Put on a mask and go about your lives as usual. All the tracking of numbers, cases etc... cool. You'd also probably be peeing your pants if you were tracking flu cases and deaths over the last few years or decades yeah? This thing isn't going anywhere so you might as well get busy living or get busy dying
Respectfully, this sort of thinking makes me cringe.
Ten years ago, when I was single, I'd probably have said the same thing, but with a wife and kids, I will reserve the right to make a mountain out of anything I believe is an imminent danger to my family.
My brother in law just spent 2 weeks in the ICU...is home now with an oxygen tank and a 400k hospital bill on the way. My sister tested positive last night, and she is scared to death. Comparing this to the flu is so off base I don't even know what else to say.
I really don't think it is off base, but I do apologize if I offended you.
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Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc... over the health, life, and livelihood of all. I'm sick of all this shit too, and wish to just be done with it. Sadly, the virus doesn't give any fucking fuck's about what I or anyone else wants. I'll live my life under the premise of what is real, not what I wish for.
If only it were that simple. While I'd argue that concerts, gyms, restaurants, etc., are pretty important, even if they exist at some level of risk to the public health, it's not just other people's entertainment that you're turning up your nose at. For better or worse, we live in a capitalist country. People need to work - by in large in the service industry - to survive. Lockdowns of schools, daycares, and other public services means that parents must leave their jobs to take care of their children - this could be teachers, nurses, first responders, utility workers, food service workers, transit workers, and who knows what else. As far as I can tell, opposition to lockdowns resonates with the working class because they've had to be the most inconvenienced by it - and often they are the "essentials" who have had to work through it, while the few state services they rely on become unreliable. Meanwhile, the bourgeois are quite comfortable to work their office jobs from home forever, even if these jobs are predicated on the existence of a lower class who MUST show up to the job site regardless of what Fauci says.
If I thought we were capable of stopping the economy for a few months, I'd be with you. But that's just not the case. You don't get to play the game where you let yourself feel superior to your fellow man because you "support" greater lockdowns when society and the economy are structured in such a way where the advice our officials are giving us is totally impotent and unrealistic. We are ALL struggling with how to move forward, you do not get to be the moral arbiter of where people are allowed to have their breaking points.
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Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc... over the health, life, and livelihood of all. I'm sick of all this shit too, and wish to just be done with it. Sadly, the virus doesn't give any fucking fuck's about what I or anyone else wants. I'll live my life under the premise of what is real, not what I wish for.
If only it were that simple. While I'd argue that concerts, gyms, restaurants, etc., are pretty important, even if they exist at some level of risk to the public health, it's not just other people's entertainment that you're turning up your nose at. For better or worse, we live in a capitalist country. People need to work - by in large in the service industry - to survive. Lockdowns of schools, daycares, and other public services means that parents must leave their jobs to take care of their children - this could be teachers, nurses, first responders, utility workers, food service workers, transit workers, and who knows what else. As far as I can tell, opposition to lockdowns resonates with the working class because they've had to be the most inconvenienced by it - and often they are the "essentials" who have had to work through it, while the few state services they rely on become unreliable. Meanwhile, the bourgeois are quite comfortable to work their office jobs from home forever, even if these jobs are predicated on the existence of a lower class who MUST show up to the job site regardless of what Fauci says.
If I thought we were capable of stopping the economy for a few months, I'd be with you. But that's just not the case. You don't get to play the game where you let yourself feel superior to your fellow man because you "support" greater lockdowns when society and the economy are structured in such a way where the advice our officials are giving us is totally impotent and unrealistic. We are ALL struggling with how to move forward, you do not get to be the moral arbiter of where people are allowed to have their breaking points.
That's looking at the overall Bigger Picture that is This Earth and What constitutes our very livelihoods of our human societies lifestyles.
I'll say it again...If we talk about consequences and outcomes. This is the consequence of having all these comforts, privileges, and entitlements to make our lives more simple and easier. What this brought to human life is more detrimental than it is beneficial. As consequences and outcomes take time to be revealed and understood by humans, we are now barely seeing what the outcomes and consequences are for mass production and urbanizing the entire human Populations.
The Bigger Picture is looking and analyzing the puzzle pieces that make up the Bigger Picture. These Puzzle pieces are the very things that form our human fabric of our societal behaviors, livelihoods, and sustanence.
It's why I am the way I am about this virus and in no way fearful of it. To me, we Humans are reaping what we sow by the very things we did to the Earth. It's just the consequences of industrialization, urbanization, and toxification of the water, soil, and the air.
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It's like nobody remembered/learned from the first round of restrictions and shut downs. Actions taken now are not going to have an impact for at least 1-2 weeks. Individuals that test positive yesterday had their exposure probably a week+ ago. So, the point of what (for example) the QB gov't is doing now is so that cases don't go to 20k/day by the 2nd week of January. It's all but assured that QB (and Ontario for that matter) will be seeing 10k/day by end of the month.
The problem is, other than the vaccine, none of those "restrictions" and "shut downs" necessarily had the impact that we (wish, think, hope) they did. There are probably 10 articles over the last 18 months in the New York Times about how this virus has defied expectation at almost every turn. We THINK we can control it, but we can't. Florida/California. Two WILDLY divergent approaches, and numbers that aren't all that different. Where are all the stories of "superspreader" (HATE that expression) events tied to airplanes and airports?
Again, when we talk of these things, we are NOT solving the problem we are simply adjusting the odds slightly in our favor.
And by the by, it seems as if each new variant has a shorter incubation time; the "original" was averaging five days, Delta averaged about four days, and now, with early data, Omicron seems to be averaging about three days to incubate (https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/12/omicron-incubation-period-testing/621066/). That is HUGE in terms of viral transmissability.
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Or maybe we DID learn, and that's why you're seeing what you are seeing now. Americans, maybe even Westerners to a large extent, will simply refuse to comply with lockdowns and will only tolerate restrictions so far. People see the statements of the WHO director and Fauci as almost farcical this point - what they are prescribing is just not conducive to life as anyone knows it. Rather than punishing people by shutting down or limiting services they rely on (at who knows what cost), better to just get on with life as safely as possible at this point.
I can agree with this. My wife watches too much news and listens to too much Fauci. She raced out to the store to stock up on at-home covid tests, and suggested that we all take a test prior to our family Christmas parties this weekend because it's what Fauci says families should do.
I just laughed and said "no, none of us are even sick." "But we could still be carrying the virus and transmitting it!" Sorry, I'm not taking a covid test if I don't have any symptoms.
I'm not against testing - I held my daughter down and made her take an at-home test the day before my son's birthday party in October, when she had cold symptoms, and people were coming over the next day. But if none of us are sick, wasting tests just to see if we're covid-positive and asymptomatic is silly.
I see some of the suggestions from local government (city and state) or Fauci and just shake my head - i've been in favor of this stuff in the past. Trying to control the spread now is impossible - it's up to people to stay healthy on their own. A family of four (with 3 fully vaccinated) does not need to covid test regularly.
Masking in public and vaccines should be widely encouraged. Temperature checks at the door are fine with me. We can carry this forward in perpetuity for all I care. Testing vaccinated, asymptomatic people is complete insanity. This thing will never end while that nice little industry is humming along.
Let alone how hard it is getting to get actual healthcare for other, more dangerous illnesses these days.
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Or maybe we DID learn, and that's why you're seeing what you are seeing now. Americans, maybe even Westerners to a large extent, will simply refuse to comply with lockdowns and will only tolerate restrictions so far. People see the statements of the WHO director and Fauci as almost farcical this point - what they are prescribing is just not conducive to life as anyone knows it. Rather than punishing people by shutting down or limiting services they rely on (at who knows what cost), better to just get on with life as safely as possible at this point.
I can agree with this. My wife watches too much news and listens to too much Fauci. She raced out to the store to stock up on at-home covid tests, and suggested that we all take a test prior to our family Christmas parties this weekend because it's what Fauci says families should do.
I just laughed and said "no, none of us are even sick." "But we could still be carrying the virus and transmitting it!" Sorry, I'm not taking a covid test if I don't have any symptoms.
I'm not against testing - I held my daughter down and made her take an at-home test the day before my son's birthday party in October, when she had cold symptoms, and people were coming over the next day. But if none of us are sick, wasting tests just to see if we're covid-positive and asymptomatic is silly.
I see some of the suggestions from local government (city and state) or Fauci and just shake my head - i've been in favor of this stuff in the past. Trying to control the spread now is impossible - it's up to people to stay healthy on their own. A family of four (with 3 fully vaccinated) does not need to covid test regularly.
Masking in public and vaccines should be widely encouraged. Temperature checks at the door are fine with me. We can carry this forward in perpetuity for all I care. Testing vaccinated, asymptomatic people is complete insanity. This thing will never end while that nice little industry is humming along.
Let alone how hard it is getting to get actual healthcare for other, more dangerous illnesses these days.
Exactly. Where our industries of health that good to begin with. Did everyone go and get seen before the pandemic? Were people not dying when they went to the hospitals before Covid?
The effects of consequences from the industrialization of our medicines, which cultures before industrialization utilized plants and had techniques for utilizing the medicinal properties of these plants.
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The problem is, other than the vaccine, none of those "restrictions" and "shut downs" necessarily had the impact that we (wish, think, hope) they did. There are probably 10 articles over the last 18 months in the New York Times about how this virus has defied expectation at almost every turn. We THINK we can control it, but we can't. Florida/California. Two WILDLY divergent approaches, and numbers that aren't all that different. Where are all the stories of "superspreader" (HATE that expression) events tied to airplanes and airports?
I truly believe that masking in public eliminates the majority of the risk. I have yet to feel uncomfortable while riding the commuter train into Chicago, unless someone sits near me and takes their mask off. I actually switched seats on the train yesterday because of that - I need to stay healthy for my family to get through this weekend and our Christmas parties. So I'll adjust my behavior accordingly.
I actually explained that to my wife, who is feeling overwhelmed with the number of cases shooting upwards again. I told her that we just need to tune all of that out and do what we need to do for our family. Let's just focus on getting through this weekend without getting sick - one day at a time.
Masking in public and vaccines should be widely encouraged. Temperature checks at the door are fine with me. We can carry this forward in perpetuity for all I care. Testing vaccinated, asymptomatic people is complete insanity. This thing will never end while that nice little industry is humming along.
Let alone how hard it is getting to get actual healthcare for other, more dangerous illnesses these days.
I'm all for wearing my mask in public. I stopped over the summer when cases were going down after the initial wave of vaccinations, then started again as the Delta wave came through. We do it to set an example for our kids, but with cases climbing, it certainly makes me feel safer to be around people. I have to wear one while on the commuter train, and do it in the common areas of our office building or while at a restaurant or store.
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Again, when we talk of these things, we are NOT solving the problem we are simply adjusting the odds slightly in our favor.
Adjusting the odds in our favor is all we can ever do with almost every problem.
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You don't get to play the game where you let yourself feel superior to your fellow man because you "support" greater lockdowns when society and the economy are structured in such a way where the advice our officials are giving us is totally impotent and unrealistic. We are ALL struggling with how to move forward, you do not get to be the moral arbiter of where people are allowed to have their breaking points.
My apologies if my 'rant' came across this way. Not intended. I don't feel superior, nor am I trying to suggest I'm the moral arbiter - and trust me, I've come right up to my breaking point on many occasions. We as a society are trying to balance economic health with physical health, and we're doing a pretty crappy job at both (imo). IMO, economic health is contingent upon individual/physical health, and to some degree, vice versa. I don't think lockdown measures are the best / right tool either. But in the absence of broader society taking steps with easier measures (vax, mask, distancing) to stop or at least slow the spread of the virus, I understand why gov'ts feel it is a lever they need to pull.
I remember hearing from the start of the pandemic ... the virus doesn't move. People move the virus. If we take steps to limit the movement of the virus, that's a good thing. Seems not everyone gets this. In some regards it seems we (society) have learned a lot over the last 2 years, but also learned nothing. If only we could be as dogmatic and adaptable as the virus. :-\
Where are all the stories of "superspreader" (HATE that expression) events tied to airplanes and airports?
PRECISELY!!!! because all individuals in airports / planes are taking all the right precautions - whether that be the airport authorities, airlines, employees, or passengers - masking, distancing, filtration, vaccination. See!!! It can be done without lockdowns, but when broader society gets loose on these measures, the virus spreads.
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It's like nobody remembered/learned from the first round of restrictions and shut downs. Actions taken now are not going to have an impact for at least 1-2 weeks. Individuals that test positive yesterday had their exposure probably a week+ ago. So, the point of what (for example) the QB gov't is doing now is so that cases don't go to 20k/day by the 2nd week of January. It's all but assured that QB (and Ontario for that matter) will be seeing 10k/day by end of the month.
Or maybe we DID learn, and that's why you're seeing what you are seeing now. Americans, maybe even Westerners to a large extent, will simply refuse to comply with lockdowns and will only tolerate restrictions so far. People see the statements of the WHO director and Fauci as almost farcical this point - what they are prescribing is just not conducive to life as anyone knows it. Rather than punishing people by shutting down or limiting services they rely on (at who knows what cost), better to just get on with life as safely as possible at this point.
If the majority of people would only do that (the bolded part).
Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc... over the health, life, and livelihood of all. I'm sick of all this shit too, and wish to just be done with it. Sadly, the virus doesn't give any fucking fuck's about what I or anyone else wants. I'll live my life under the premise of what is real, not what I wish for.
No use in ranting though. No one here (or elsewhere) is inclined to change their perspectives. Self interest is self defeating.
I deleted the gif, just for space. The bold is the problem, though, isn't it? I fully believe that I live under the premise of what is real, not what I wish for; I have written many times that reality and my wishes are WILDLY out of synch at times. So what if we disagree on what is "real"? I don't believe we have NEARLY as much control over this virus as we think we do. I don't believe that what happens in Hartford, CT or Dallas, TX, or West Palm Beach, FL or Sausalito, CA has anywhere near the broad impact on the planet that we think it does. Whether the US is 50%, or 75%, or 99% vaccinated, if the rest of the world is sub-50%, we are ALWAYS going to be susceptible to variants and mutations that happen.
I get it; we're improving odds; I've said that myself a couple times here in this thread. And we should do that. But if there is a bloc of people who calculate those odds differently - and I can guarantee you that there ARE people who calculate those odds differently. We have to honor and respect that. We just do. I have children, and grandchildren, and I have to navigate putting them in the safest position I can; but I don't expect everyone else to share my view of what's "safest". That's just not the way the world works. I wish it did - my WISHES, see above - but it doesn't. THAT'S part of the reality we should be accomodating just as much as the "reality" (in quotes because it's not really) of any batch of statistics we can serve up. There was a post above that talked about almost 5,000 new cases in Quebec; that's out of 8 and a half MILLION people. Just how that 8.5 million fits in is an entire discussion in and of itself.
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Stads for starters, that's PER DAY. Total cases in QB is about 500,000 - a disease that has infected over 5% of the population of that province in less than two years. What is everyone supposed to do... just sluff that off? Grin and bear it? Carry on, nothing to see here? Secondly, I'm pretty sure you know how math works. TODAY, it's 5000 out of 8.5M, and on a 7-day doubling period. At what point does the line exist whereby "well, guess we better take action" is the response. 10k? 100k? As was (supposedly) learned in previous waves, the longer the decision to act, the more severe the actions need to be.
And no, I don't have to honor and respect someone else's risk tolerance (anti-vax, anti-mask, pro congregation) when it aggregately affects me and my family's lives and livelihood. I don't even know what it is that you're trying to say. "They" certainly aren't honoring and respecting my risk tolerance.
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Where are all the stories of "superspreader" (HATE that expression) events tied to airplanes and airports?
PRECISELY!!!! because all individuals in airports / planes are taking all the right precautions - whether that be the airport authorities, airlines, employees, or passengers - masking, distancing, filtration, vaccination. See!!! It can be done without lockdowns, but when broader society gets loose on these measures, the virus spreads.
Having flown eight times (that is, eight legs) over the last two months, let's not overstate this. They are still serving refreshments on the planes. There is still the time - hours, in some cases - spent in close proximity to someone whose idea of wearing a mask is akin to a chin strap. I do understand that airplane cabins refresh at an amazing rate (something like every three minutes, I think, on the new Boeing planes); but that's not always the case in the terminals themselves, or in the shuttles.
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At what point does the line exist whereby "well, guess we better take action" is the response. 10k? 100k? As was (supposedly) learned in previous waves, the longer the decision to act, the more severe the actions need to be.
IMO, it's not a set number but when hospitals reach the tipping point of being overwhelmed. Whatever the % may be. It's kind of why I am not getting too alarmed wtih omicron as our population is mostly vaccinated and if Omicron is slightly more mild, that combo should lead to hospitals not reaching that point, but if they do, IMO that is when we take action. I'm not in favor of lockdowns because they just haven't shown to work in terms of stopping spread. They slow it down so we only should take that action when the hospitals need that slowdown to catch up. And this is obviously going to be different based on location. My Dr friend is calling Omicron a "head cold" I don't believe that is the case for the vulnerable people, but I think for the majority of the younger folk who are going to get sick, they aren't going to be severely ill. We are at the same point we've been since the vaccines came out, the vulnerable need protection, the rest of society's chance of severe illness is extremely low and covid should not be holding back society in general. Granted, with how transmissible it is, if the cases rise so high, that WILL lead to more hospitalizations and we will see omicron become more of a problem for society. Also the numbers still show that the people with severe illness are still mostly unvaccinated. Can't save those who choose to not be saved.
On a side note, I bumped my flight home a day earlier as with the lockdowns here and with almost the entire company on vacation, not only can I not get my work done anymore than I already have but I can't even eat in a restuarant or do anything outside of being at work. It's just making it pointless to stick around so I'm coming home tomorrow morning and I just got a negative test result so I am covid free and clear to come back avoiding what was my biggest concern of testing positive and being stuck in Europe for Christmas. I can thank getting that booster almost 3 weeks ago for helping me stay safe.
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At what point does the line exist whereby "well, guess we better take action" is the response. 10k? 100k? As was (supposedly) learned in previous waves, the longer the decision to act, the more severe the actions need to be.
IMO, it's not a set number but when hospitals reach the tipping point of being overwhelmed.
Totally fair ... if not for the fact that if you wait until they're actually overwhelmed, you've seriously fucked yourself. Decisions need to be made weeks ahead of the "tipping point".
IMO, (and I'll acknowledge it's a bit of a regional issue too), areas of the the US are likely only a few weeks (maybe a month) behind where ON and QB are right now. Also, I've said this a few times already, so I'm not sure why it doesn't seem to be sinking in - Omicron is infecting MORE (double) vaccinated individuals than unvaccinated. Granted, at an individual level, vax'd people are not at a significant health risk ... I get it. But with wider and wider spread, the virus will find the vulnerable groups. The (current) exponential growth of the virus will trump any benefit of being "weaker" than Delta just by sheer numbers. I think that's why strong actions are being taken now - to try and slow it while we get boosters in arms. The good thing the US has going for itself is that the booster program started a few months back, where ours just really started about 3 weeks ago.
Also the numbers still show that the people with severe illness are still mostly unvaccinated. Can't save those who choose to not be saved.
True, but it's not JUST about the unvax'd. Another issue is the impact on infected health care professionals - even vax'd that might only be experiencing minor symptoms - they've got to isolate for the protection of patients ("Data released by NHS England show that on December 12 there were 12,240 personnel absent for coronavirus-related reasons"). THAT is also going to devastate healthcare. There are 2nd and 3rd degrees of implications to society - it's not just about an individual getting a head cold.
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Another side effect here is the exodus of teachers and healthcare workers from the workforce. Teachers are being bullied beyond belief and are just quitting their jobs. Healthcare workers are getting burned out and leaving (and sometimes getting bullied over the 'fake virus').
I think in the long run, those 2 things will be some of the biggest takeaways. Our public school system already kinda sucks, now you run the best teachers out of their job over masks and whatnot, who suffers?
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The good thing the US has going for itself is that the booster program started a few months back, where ours just really started about 3 weeks ago.
yeah that is what's bothering me the most a the moment, that I still can't get a 3rd dose appointment and propably won't be able to for at least a few more weeks.
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Our public school system already kinda sucks, now you run the best teachers out of their job over masks and whatnot, who suffers?
Speaking as someone who married in to the business, masks are about 17th on the list of reasons teachers are burning out and quitting.
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My family has had to scale back our plans for a Christmas gathering. We are no longer getting together with my aunt and cousin and their families. New restrictions here in BC limit gatherings to a household plus 10 people, so we would have been well over that.
More significantly one of my cousins and his family are not vaccinated, and we don’t want to risk them being around my dad, who has lung issues and is inexplicably on the fence about getting his booster.
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Our public school system already kinda sucks, now you run the best teachers out of their job over masks and whatnot, who suffers?
Speaking as someone who married in to the business, masks are about 17th on the list of reasons teachers are burning out and quitting.
Oh, I know. It's just that this situation seems to be the tipping point for many that are quitting or retiring early. That video I saw this week or last of some 'promotion' where they had teachers fighting over dollar bills for supplies is really appalling and sadly quite telling of the inherent problems in our system.
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Our public school system already kinda sucks, now you run the best teachers out of their job over masks and whatnot, who suffers?
Speaking as someone who married in to the business, masks are about 17th on the list of reasons teachers are burning out and quitting.
Oh, I know. It's just that this situation seems to be the tipping point for many that are quitting or retiring early. That video I saw this week or last of some 'promotion' where they had teachers fighting over dollar bills for supplies is really appalling and sadly quite telling of the inherent problems in our system.
Just searched that and now I'm fucking seething with anger.
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Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc... over the health, life, and livelihood of all.
Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?
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Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc... over the health, life, and livelihood of all.
Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?
+1... some people's livelihoods ARE working in the live music industry, fitness world, and food industry. Those people WANT people to come support their line of work and art. Of course, this point has already been beaten to death in this thread. I don't see anybody's views changing after this long
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Popping in for a random question: do you guys know if the rapid test results are independent? My sister is stuck in NYC right now because she was visiting friends and then one of them became symptomatic and tested positive (they were all vaccinated + booster). Given that she's just now in the window where a test is worthwhile, we don't think she'll get results from a PCR test in time for Christmas. If she's able to test negative on daily rapid tests though, should that give us more comfort? Or if she's got it and gets a false negative one day is she more likely to continue getting false negatives?
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I think the chances of consecutive false negatives OR a false positives is unlikely. If she tests negative and is asymptomatic, then yes, I'd take comfort. If she takes a second quick test and that's also negative, I assume she's negative.
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Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc... over the health, life, and livelihood of all.
Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?
I don't think I'm following the question. I'm happy to clarify my point if I can better understand what it is I'm not communicating clearly.
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Trivial?...we were going to see the Capitals in DC for whatever game in January, but our hotel discount did not apply. So, we were going to see my Red Wings up in Philly in a month.
Wife fell and broke her wrist, and....covid numbers are sky rocketing. We are both 'boosted', but, screw it. We cancelled our tickets today, got a refund for the game and the hotel.
This is all so disheartening........sigh............
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Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc... over the health, life, and livelihood of all.
Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?
I don't think I'm following the question. I'm happy to clarify my point if I can better understand what it is I'm not communicating clearly.
If people aren't going to concerts, gyms, and restaurants, doesn't that devalue their health, life, and livelihood? Someone can be technically alive but spiritually dead.
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Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc... over the health, life, and livelihood of all.
Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?
I don't think I'm following the question. I'm happy to clarify my point if I can better understand what it is I'm not communicating clearly.
If people aren't going to concerts, gyms, and restaurants, doesn't that devalue their health, life, and livelihood? Someone can be technically alive but spiritually dead.
Fair... but if you're dead, you're dead-dead. I'd also question how spiritually alive someone is in the hospital, or ICU, including the close friends and families of those people. Personally, I think a the benefits of temporary or short-lived 'pauses' or restrictions on certain discretionary aspects to society outweigh the detriments.
Look, I get that these are unfair and inaccurate comparisons, but current/past generations that have experienced (or are living with) great sickness, oppression, and/or conflict know what it's like to have to REALLY sacrifice and risk or lose their health, life, and livelihood. I think as a society, it shouldn't be much to ask to temporarily sacrifice certain things for the greater good. But that's not how our society operates. Me-me-me, and instantaneous gratification is what we've been wired for.
As I said, I'm not trying (or going) to change anyone's position. But we reap(sta :D ;)) what we sow.
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Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc... over the health, life, and livelihood of all.
Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?
I don't think I'm following the question. I'm happy to clarify my point if I can better understand what it is I'm not communicating clearly.
If people aren't going to concerts, gyms, and restaurants, doesn't that devalue their health, life, and livelihood? Someone can be technically alive but spiritually dead.
Fair... but if you're dead, you're dead-dead. I'd also question how spiritually alive someone is in the hospital, or ICU, including the close friends and families of those people. Personally, I think a the benefits of temporary or short-lived 'pauses' or restrictions on certain discretionary aspects to society outweigh the detriments.
Look, I get that these are unfair and inaccurate comparisons, but current/past generations that have experienced (or are living with) great sickness, oppression, and/or conflict know what it's like to have to REALLY sacrifice and risk or lose their health, life, and livelihood. I think as a society, it shouldn't be much to ask to temporarily sacrifice certain things for the greater good. But that's not how our society operates. Me-me-me, and instantaneous gratification is what we've been wired for.
As I said, I'm not trying (or going) to change anyone's position. But we reap(sta :D ;)) what we sow.
This post is a winner. Not because I agree with it (though I nominally do) but because it SO beautifully highlights the problem here. PERSONALLY. YOU. Some people DON'T value the "temporary" pauses. I can honestly say, with no hyperbole, that sometimes "temporary" isn't that temporary (I got divorced, and I took what I thought was a "temporary" hit to my finances, and it took me goddamn seven years to get back to even ballpark where I was). Going back further, I lost my job in 2010, and it LITERALLY changed my life. We can't keep cavalierly making value judgments - based on our own thought patterns - that have potentially DEEP impacts for other people. I worked out of my house pre-COVID, so for me, the shutdowns, the masks, the restrictions... easy peasy. I'm in my fucking basement by myself anyway, so the only thing I REALLY gave up are bars/restaurants (and only the experience; thanks DoorDash!) and concerts. No big. My college friend, who didn't have two quarters to rub together most of his life, FINALLY got his shit together with a great job doing teambuilding exercises... and between revenue hits and distancing issues, COVID all but killed his business. But for the grace of a few close friends, an understanding girlfriend (now wife) and a daughter who's a rising star in the corporate world, he'd be homeless (again). For him, BIG.
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Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc... over the health, life, and livelihood of all.
Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?
I don't think I'm following the question. I'm happy to clarify my point if I can better understand what it is I'm not communicating clearly.
If people aren't going to concerts, gyms, and restaurants, doesn't that devalue their health, life, and livelihood? Someone can be technically alive but spiritually dead.
Fair... but if you're dead, you're dead-dead. I'd also question how spiritually alive someone is in the hospital, or ICU, including the close friends and families of those people. Personally, I think a the benefits of temporary or short-lived 'pauses' or restrictions on certain discretionary aspects to society outweigh the detriments.
Look, I get that these are unfair and inaccurate comparisons, but current/past generations that have experienced (or are living with) great sickness, oppression, and/or conflict know what it's like to have to REALLY sacrifice and risk or lose their health, life, and livelihood. I think as a society, it shouldn't be much to ask to temporarily sacrifice certain things for the greater good. But that's not how our society operates. Me-me-me, and instantaneous gratification is what we've been wired for.
As I said, I'm not trying (or going) to change anyone's position. But we reap(sta :D ;)) what we sow.
For me, this post is a winner as well, mostly due to the fact that I agree with every single word ;)
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When we did do a temporary pause of public business in 2020 the end result was a significant amount of people losing their jobs and small businesses going under. I think we all can name a few of our local establishments that are no longer around due to the shutdowns of the pandemic. If you think the government's got our backs to keep everyone afloat while we force a shut down, you've got a lot more faith in the system than I do. (and granted, this could be different for other locations). The reality so far, even with NJ hitting record highs of cases, omicron is just showing to not be a deadly disease like the variants before. The risk profile is still fairly low and the way this is running through our country like wildfire makes me think a short pause won't change a single thing.
Having said all that, my Christmas is officially ruined. My parents decided not to come up to NJ because my mom's health hasn't been the greatest and NJ is worse off than FL is at the moment. Turns out they made the right last minute decision, my brother in law where my parents would have been staying and where they would have hosted, tested positive. He has a runny nose.
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When we did do a temporary pause of public business in 2020 the end result was a significant amount of people losing their jobs and small businesses going under. I think we all can name a few of our local establishments that are no longer around due to the shutdowns of the pandemic. If you think the government's got our backs to keep everyone afloat while we force a shut down, you've got a lot more faith in the system than I do. (and granted, this could be different for other locations). The reality so far, even with NJ hitting record highs of cases, omicron is just showing to not be a deadly disease like the variants before. The risk profile is still fairly low and the way this is running through our country like wildfire makes me think a short pause won't change a single thing.
Having said all that, my Christmas is officially ruined. My parents decided not to come up to NJ because my mom's health hasn't been the greatest and NJ is worse off than FL is at the moment. Turns out they made the right last minute decision, my brother in law where my parents would have been staying and where they would have hosted, tested positive. He has a runny nose.
It definitely won't, and people gotta eat, and people gotta get a move on with their lives. I've got a NYE concert in Cambridge MA that I can't wait to attend.
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Sorry, Marc; I hope you can salvage what you can for the holidays. We're probably keeping it low-key this year. We'll have a small get-together at my mother-in-law's house Xmas eve, and honestly, we might actually do NOTHING on Xmas day. It's been a hard three/four weeks for us on all fronts, and while most of it turned out for the good, we're just flat out EXHAUSTED.
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Having said all that, my Christmas is officially ruined. My parents decided not to come up to NJ because my mom's health hasn't been the greatest and NJ is worse off than FL is at the moment. Turns out they made the right last minute decision, my brother in law where my parents would have been staying and where they would have hosted, tested positive. He has a runny nose.
That sucks Cram I'm sorry to hear the plans fell apart.
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I got back yesterday from Europe and am quite tired and have little desire to do much anyway so if Christmas is cancelled for me, it won't be the worst thing. I could use the next few days to get things done around the house and put my head back to a stable position. Just the drama from the family is a bit more exhausting than people getting sick.
It definitely won't, and people gotta eat, and people gotta get a move on with their lives. I've got a NYE concert in Cambridge MA that I can't wait to attend.
I also have a concert on the 27th I'd like to go to. As of now, it's still on and if it happens, I plan on going. If I get covid, so be it. Vaccines are required to enter. I recently tested negative and feel fine, I don't see why I shouldn't be able to go as long as it happens.
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Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc... over the health, life, and livelihood of all.
Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?
I don't think I'm following the question. I'm happy to clarify my point if I can better understand what it is I'm not communicating clearly.
If people aren't going to concerts, gyms, and restaurants, doesn't that devalue their health, life, and livelihood? Someone can be technically alive but spiritually dead.
Fair... but if you're dead, you're dead-dead. I'd also question how spiritually alive someone is in the hospital, or ICU, including the close friends and families of those people. Personally, I think a the benefits of temporary or short-lived 'pauses' or restrictions on certain discretionary aspects to society outweigh the detriments.
Look, I get that these are unfair and inaccurate comparisons, but current/past generations that have experienced (or are living with) great sickness, oppression, and/or conflict know what it's like to have to REALLY sacrifice and risk or lose their health, life, and livelihood. I think as a society, it shouldn't be much to ask to temporarily sacrifice certain things for the greater good. But that's not how our society operates. Me-me-me, and instantaneous gratification is what we've been wired for.
As I said, I'm not trying (or going) to change anyone's position. But we reap(sta :D ;)) what we sow.
This argument simply raises a false equivalency. "Me [going to concerts, gyms, and restaurants vs. the health, life, livelihood of others" does not in any way accurately frame the issue at all. Not even close. Nobody is telling you that you (or anyone else) cannot behave in a manner that is overly cautious. Please, please, PLEASE do you and be as cautious as you need to be to protect yourself and yours in the manner you deem most appropriate. I have respect for anyone who does so, even if I disagree with your personal risk assessment. But irrational overreactions that misstate the minimal risk factors don't help anyone or anything (as I think Reap was trying to point out).
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Data from the UK and Denmark is starting to support early findings in South Africa: omicron is currently resulting in a relatively smaller amount of severe cases and shorter treatment times than previous strains. This is hopefully a step towards SARS-CoV-2 becoming endemic.
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Please, please, PLEASE do you and be as cautious as you need to be to protect yourself and yours in the manner you deem most appropriate. I have respect for anyone who does so, even if I disagree with your personal risk assessment. But irrational overreactions that misstate the minimal risk factors don't help anyone or anything (as I think Reap was trying to point out).
The whole "you do you" and "tend to your garden" responses are really grating on me (not a shot at you Bill... just using your verbiage - which you haven't specifically said in a while). I'd LOVE to just "do me", but I can't - A) because of a global pandemic, and B) because others aren't taking the necessary precautions to allow ALL of society to do them. I can't go to hockey games across the border; jingle.son can't go to college for a fourth consecutive semester; jingle.daughter can't see her friends, or progress her education career with an in-person placements; we won't be seeing jingle.mil because one of her other grand-children tested positive because his girlfriend wasn't following guidelines. I haven't had a f2f work meeting in just about 2 years - was about to plan one for the end of Jan, but that's kibosh'd now.
So let's dispense with the 'you do you' bullshit. I *am* living life to my risk tolerance, and still getting fucked over for it. I'm trying to do MY part so that *all* of society can "do you". IMO, the whole "you do you" thing is just a cute way of justifying (some level of) selfishness.
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Yet you're judging people who aren't doing the same things you are and you're judging people who go to concerts... I didn't go to a concert for a year and a half. No wait - two years. Now I've been doing it for months with no issues. Just my two cents... Do your thing and assess things as you see fit, but people who aren't doing the same thing aren't beneath you. Dismissing "you do you" as bullshit is, well... dismissive.
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The whole "you do you" and "tend to your garden" responses are really grating on me
Good. It should grate on anyone who doesn't get that the argument you are making is complete nonsense.
I'd LOVE to just "do me", but I can't - A) because of a global pandemic, and B) because others aren't taking the necessary precautions to allow ALL of society to do them. I can't go to hockey games across the border; jingle.son can't go to college for a fourth consecutive semester; jingle.daughter can't see her friends, or progress her education career with an in-person placements; we won't be seeing jingle.mil because one of her other grand-children tested positive because his girlfriend wasn't following guidelines. I haven't had a f2f work meeting in just about 2 years - was about to plan one for the end of Jan, but that's kibosh'd now.
And all of that unequivocally sucks. But, it has zero to do with anyone's individual choice to go to concerns, restaurants, the gym, etc. Yeah, there was a global pandemic. As cold as it may sound, file that under "stuff happens." Nobody's individual choices to not live under a rock are causing that. The virus is. The need to find blame in others for choosing differently than you is perhaps understandable as a kneejerk reaction out of frustration, but is ultimately a selfish, immature attitude.
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Yeah, there was a global pandemic.
"WAS" a global pandemic? That one line alone sums it up - those that have dismissed the pandemic as over to suit your (royal, not you specifically Bosk) own situation seems like an arrogant attitude to me.
I sincerely hope you (US) guys don't get hammered with this version of the virus the way we are getting it. Hopefully it's a "much ado about nothing" low risk to health that everyone seems to want to be convinced that it is, but it's too new to really know. Carry on though ... dismiss the warning signs as has been done all throughout the (still going) global pandemic.
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dismiss the warning signs as has been done all throughout the (still going) global pandemic.
Count me in as disappointed too: we've been ignoring all negative signs for as long as the pandemic lasted, but now people want to jump at the first positive one.
I get it. I am sick and tired too. I want to move on with life now that I'm double vaxd and my risk assessment says a) I am literally bound to catch it at work b) nothing particularly bad is going to happen to me or my double vaxd husband, my only social contact right now other than work. The timing, with the holidays, is particularly nasty to be introducing new restrictions or imposing them upon yourself. But is it that difficult to avoid proclaiming we shouldn't have any further restrictions until we actually have some solid answers?
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dismiss the warning signs as has been done all throughout the (still going) global pandemic.
Count me in as disappointed too: we've been ignoring all negative signs for as long as the pandemic lasted, but now people want to jump at the first positive one.
I get it. I am sick and tired too. I want to move on with life now that I'm double vaxd and my risk assessment says a) I am literally bound to catch it at work b) nothing particularly bad is going to happen to me or my double vaxd husband, my only social contact right now other than work. The timing, with the holidays, is particularly nasty to be introducing new restrictions or imposing them upon yourself. But is it that difficult to avoid proclaiming we shouldn't have any further restrictions until we actually have some solid answers?
What restrictions? We have already had restrictions, and still have many of them. What we did in March 2020 didn't work. So what are you all proposing?
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From NYT:
Some of the country’s new Covid acceptance — or fatalism — stems from frustration with the costs of pandemic precautions: the loss of learning from closed schools; the isolation from social distancing; the nationwide rise in blood pressure, drug overdoses, mental health problems and more.
When talking about the benefits of restrictions, we should not forget the negatives. As someone who spent most of 2020 in a depressed state, I can relate.
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Fatalism is a strong word.
And we simply don't have a blank checkbook of
Some of the country’s new Covid acceptance — or fatalism — stems from frustration with the costs of pandemic precautions: the loss of learning from closed schools; the isolation from social distancing; the nationwide rise in blood pressure, drug overdoses, mental health problems and more.
We cannot continue to kick these down the road. A life lost to these is no less important...
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dismiss the warning signs as has been done all throughout the (still going) global pandemic.
Count me in as disappointed too: we've been ignoring all negative signs for as long as the pandemic lasted, but now people want to jump at the first positive one.
I get it. I am sick and tired too. I want to move on with life now that I'm double vaxd and my risk assessment says a) I am literally bound to catch it at work b) nothing particularly bad is going to happen to me or my double vaxd husband, my only social contact right now other than work. The timing, with the holidays, is particularly nasty to be introducing new restrictions or imposing them upon yourself. But is it that difficult to avoid proclaiming we shouldn't have any further restrictions until we actually have some solid answers?
What restrictions? We have already had restrictions, and still have many of them. What we did in March 2020 didn't work. So what are you all proposing?
I really struggle with the "it didn't work" mentality. How much worse would it have been if there weren't the kinds of lockdowns that were put in place. Let's compare Australia with the US. The former came down hard, and nearly eradicated it - but at least contained it enough to carry on with life. The latter ... not so much.
What am I proposing ... That we don't need to fill movie theatres, and arenas (sports or concerts) or have a packed Times Square on New Year's Eve. Or that it's ok for recreation leagues pause their schedules, or that spin classes need not be filled with steamy panting people inhaling and exhaling 80 times per minute. Or that school systems mandate COVID vaccines the same way they mandate MMR, tetanus, diptheria, polio, and chicken pox. Or that masks be worn by all in indoor facilities where distancing cannot maintained. Or that any business where patrons congregate for extended periods of time have restrictions on capacities - because it's unfair to expect business owners to police masking and distancing requirements.
Ya know... stuff that is going to slow the spread of the very virus we humans who (once infected) are spreading and catching through every breath that we take.
When talking about the benefits of restrictions, we should not forget the negatives. As someone who spent most of 2020 in a depressed state, I can relate.
My heart breaks for you Marc, it truly does (check your FB IMs). I hope no one ever says to you "stuff happens", because all of this is totally unfair to all of us. It really is. Yes, there are costs and negatives to restrictions ... some very significant ones. I'm just of the mindset that the costs of NOT doing them are even more severe - not to everyone obviously, but they are severe enough to a significant enough number of people that I will grudgingly do my part to get society through this.
I guess I look at my actions in this like I do voting. Do my individual actions (vote) actually make a meaningful difference? Probably not. But EVERYONES actions (votes) does. So I'll do my part.
@ Tim's post. I agree. In a time where we have many diametrically opposed issues (ie, it's impossible to solve both/multiple at the same time), which do you chose / which do you sacrifice? It's almost like medical triage... ABC - Airway, Breathing, Circulation. What are the ABC's of society?
I wish I knew.
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dismiss the warning signs as has been done all throughout the (still going) global pandemic.
Count me in as disappointed too: we've been ignoring all negative signs for as long as the pandemic lasted, but now people want to jump at the first positive one.
I get it. I am sick and tired too. I want to move on with life now that I'm double vaxd and my risk assessment says a) I am literally bound to catch it at work b) nothing particularly bad is going to happen to me or my double vaxd husband, my only social contact right now other than work. The timing, with the holidays, is particularly nasty to be introducing new restrictions or imposing them upon yourself. But is it that difficult to avoid proclaiming we shouldn't have any further restrictions until we actually have some solid answers?
What restrictions? We have already had restrictions, and still have many of them. What we did in March 2020 didn't work. So what are you all proposing?
I really struggle with the "it didn't work" mentality. How much worse would it have been if there weren't the kinds of lockdowns that were put in place. Let's compare Australia with the US. The former came down hard, and nearly eradicated it - but at least contained it enough to carry on with life. The latter ... not so much.
What am I proposing ... That we don't need to fill movie theatres, and arenas (sports or concerts) or have a packed Times Square on New Year's Eve. Or that it's ok for recreation leagues pause their schedules, or that spin classes need not be filled with steamy panting people inhaling and exhaling 80 times per minute. Or that school systems mandate COVID vaccines the same way they mandate MMR, tetanus, diptheria, polio, and chicken pox. Or that masks be worn by all in indoor facilities where distancing cannot maintained. Or that any business where patrons congregate for extended periods of time have restrictions on capacities - because it's unfair to expect business owners to police masking and distancing requirements.
Ya know... stuff that is going to slow the spread of the very virus we humans who (once infected) are spreading and catching through every breath that we take.
First off, I agree about vaccine mandates in schools. But that's not a restriction, in my mind. I would consider that a requirement. So leaving that alone, I think there are ways to do most if not all of these things safely. We have, staying home if your sick, temperature checks, distancing, masks, testing, vaccines. Of course people are imperfect, and will always make mistakes. But there are ways to go out and live life, exercise, see live music, and meet with people face to face that are reasonably risk free even right now. Of course nothing is ever totally risk free. What, if anything, really is?
Piling on restrictions won't help - people will just refuse to comply, and more extreme the restrictions, the more they will become a farce to the public who do not want to abide by them. There's also the question of whether more restrictions are really worth the trade-off - if we want the gym closed down for the duration of the pandemic, what kind of health crisis do we have on our hands after that? Let alone physical, what about mental? Not everyone can afford to live in a nice house with a home gym.
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And we simply don't have a blank checkbook of
Some of the country’s new Covid acceptance — or fatalism — stems from frustration with the costs of pandemic precautions: the loss of learning from closed schools; the isolation from social distancing; the nationwide rise in blood pressure, drug overdoses, mental health problems and more.
We cannot continue to kick these down the road. A life lost to these is no less important...
Indeed.
It's not only about the death counter. For every person we save from dying of COVID, how many people are we okay with putting on food stamps? How many childrens' educations are we okay with destroying? How many people are we okay with giving psychological disorders? When have we ever not judged a society by the quality of life it provides to its citizens?
I get it. I am sick and tired too. I want to move on with life now that I'm double vaxd and my risk assessment says a) I am literally bound to catch it at work b) nothing particularly bad is going to happen to me or my double vaxd husband, my only social contact right now other than work. The timing, with the holidays, is particularly nasty to be introducing new restrictions or imposing them upon yourself. But is it that difficult to avoid proclaiming we shouldn't have any further restrictions until we actually have some solid answers?
I think this framing is backward. Why would you impose sacrifices on yourself until it was sufficiently proven to you that it was necessary? Why would you want your society or government to impose massive sacrifices without taking the time to weigh the costs against the benefits?
In March 2020, due to the confused information we had at the time, we were looking at 3-10% of the world's population dying slowly and painfully. For the sake of argument we can say that you have to act decisively in the face of that kind of risk.
But, as we've learned more about COVID, and as the variants have gotten less lethal, most of the developed world's governments still treat COVID mitigation as their chief social concern. What evidence supports this? The best reason I've seen is concern about overflowing the healthcare system. But even if the average person has some duty to prevent this, wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to just write checks to build more capacity?
I don't want to make a bullheadedly American libertarian argument. If we were talking about airborne smallpox my opinion might be very different. I've been wrong about things before and people have different values than I do. But with almost all the news about Omicron points to it being a mild disease even to those at the most risk (has a single death even been reported?). I don't know what we're even talking about anymore.
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dismiss the warning signs as has been done all throughout the (still going) global pandemic.
Count me in as disappointed too: we've been ignoring all negative signs for as long as the pandemic lasted, but now people want to jump at the first positive one.
I get it. I am sick and tired too. I want to move on with life now that I'm double vaxd and my risk assessment says a) I am literally bound to catch it at work b) nothing particularly bad is going to happen to me or my double vaxd husband, my only social contact right now other than work. The timing, with the holidays, is particularly nasty to be introducing new restrictions or imposing them upon yourself. But is it that difficult to avoid proclaiming we shouldn't have any further restrictions until we actually have some solid answers?
Yes, because the specifics of COVID seem to be ever-changing. The idea that we should all just lock down and hide ourselves away in fear until we know more about it is just nonsense. And I am someone who has been vaccinated and got the booster last week and is all in favor of being careful and hoping others do so as well, but more restrictions are not going to work. The ones in 2020 did not work, and the public at large, right or wrong, simply will not accept anything like that again, so it ain't gonna happen. If you are going to ask me what the right answers are, I do not have them, and I am not sure who does, but restrictions like 2020 again, or anything surpassing those, are the wrong answers, at this juncture.
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The idea that we should all just lock down and hide ourselves away in fear until we know more about it is just nonsense.
I'm not suggesting that, I'm suggesting not immediately ruling out restrictions precisely because of what you mentioned, that what we know about COVID changes all the time. Now nothing is solid in people's minds except "restrictions didn't work" except they did and "Omicron is a cold" based on a month's worth of data mostly from a very unusual/atypical country for pandemic watching purposes. Maybe something like "we should be careful" should be the new solid thing.
The best reason I've seen is concern about overflowing the healthcare system. But even if the average person has some duty to prevent this, wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to just write checks to build more capacity?
We can also write checks for a time machine to train more doctors and nurses to occupy that capacity, but they won't cash.
Again, I'm zero percent worried for myself, I trust the vaccines to do their job enough that I have no anxiety. For myself. But there are so many people in so many situations that would not benefit from Covid getting out of hand again, not the least of which the unvaccinated, as much as some of them want to lower the global quality of life with their stupid little antivax games during a pandemic. I don't want people to die or end up in the hospital because they assessed the situation poorly. Yes, deaths from the new variant have been reported.
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Let's not forget that in our discussions around this new variant and lockdowns and masks that the picture is much bigger than all of this.
The healthcare system - at least in the states (I cannot speak to anywhere else) is on the verge of collapse.
My 51 year old sister did not die with Covid in her body but she definitely died because of Covid. Because her general practitioner didn't have the time for a proper medical exam. The doctors and nurses in 2 separate hospitals were so overwhelmed they missed her heart failure. She had to be waitlisted for a pulmonologist from September until January (didn't live that long) and the cardiologist was more than into March for a new patient work up.
Healthcare workers are quitting in droves.
If you aren't scared of Covid, good on you. But you should definitely be scared about getting sick with ANYTHING else right now. Or your kid, or your parent, or your sibling. Because their quality of care is going to fucking suck.
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dismiss the warning signs as has been done all throughout the (still going) global pandemic.
Count me in as disappointed too: we've been ignoring all negative signs for as long as the pandemic lasted, but now people want to jump at the first positive one.
I get it. I am sick and tired too. I want to move on with life now that I'm double vaxd and my risk assessment says a) I am literally bound to catch it at work b) nothing particularly bad is going to happen to me or my double vaxd husband, my only social contact right now other than work. The timing, with the holidays, is particularly nasty to be introducing new restrictions or imposing them upon yourself. But is it that difficult to avoid proclaiming we shouldn't have any further restrictions until we actually have some solid answers?
What restrictions? We have already had restrictions, and still have many of them. What we did in March 2020 didn't work. So what are you all proposing?
I really struggle with the "it didn't work" mentality. How much worse would it have been if there weren't the kinds of lockdowns that were put in place. Let's compare Australia with the US. The former came down hard, and nearly eradicated it - but at least contained it enough to carry on with life. The latter ... not so much.
What am I proposing ... That we don't need to fill movie theatres, and arenas (sports or concerts) or have a packed Times Square on New Year's Eve. Or that it's ok for recreation leagues pause their schedules, or that spin classes need not be filled with steamy panting people inhaling and exhaling 80 times per minute. Or that school systems mandate COVID vaccines the same way they mandate MMR, tetanus, diptheria, polio, and chicken pox. Or that masks be worn by all in indoor facilities where distancing cannot maintained. Or that any business where patrons congregate for extended periods of time have restrictions on capacities - because it's unfair to expect business owners to police masking and distancing requirements.
Ya know... stuff that is going to slow the spread of the very virus we humans who (once infected) are spreading and catching through every breath that we take.
When talking about the benefits of restrictions, we should not forget the negatives. As someone who spent most of 2020 in a depressed state, I can relate.
- No proof any restriction did anything. Since Delta slithered into Australia, their case count has been an almost vertical line. Or, look at Europe vs. the US in Summer/Fall/Winter 2020. As the US opened up more our case count was higher. Europe's policy was apparently a success story. Then they got crushed in the fall and winter. Restrictions merely delayed the inevitable
- I am only aware of two controlled studies on masks (though have heard there are more). Neither conclusively showed that masks do anything to lower transmission. One of the studies kinda sorta showed that they might help for older people, but that study (the Bangladeshi one) was based off of people self-reporting symptoms rather than any scheduled testing. Masks fail the basic smell test anyway. I wore mine without complaint for months because the understanding at the time was COVID might spread through the moisture droplets we breathe out. Once we found that COVID spread through air particles, they become pointless. If you have multiple people in a room with cloth masks, even if the cloth is trapping 50% of the COVID particles per breath, the collective result of multiple people breathing indoors is hotboxing the room with COVID. Even if you want to go with an N95 mandate, they need to be worn correctly which most people won't do. People have a right to not be compelled to wear things they don't want to. There's no where near sufficient evidence around mask wearing to justify violating that right
@ Tim's post. I agree. In a time where we have many diametrically opposed issues (ie, it's impossible to solve both/multiple at the same time), which do you chose / which do you sacrifice? It's almost like medical triage... ABC - Airway, Breathing, Circulation. What are the ABC's of society?
Healthy happy and productive people. Impossible under a COVID mitigation regime.
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Let's not forget that in our discussions around this new variant and lockdowns and masks that the picture is much bigger than all of this.
The healthcare system - at least in the states (I cannot speak to anywhere else) is on the verge of collapse.
My 51 year old sister did not die with Covid in her body but she definitely died because of Covid. Because her general practitioner didn't have the time for a proper medical exam. The doctors and nurses in 2 separate hospitals were so overwhelmed they missed her heart failure. She had to be waitlisted for a pulmonologist from September until January (didn't live that long) and the cardiologist was more than into March for a new patient work up.
Healthcare workers are quitting in droves.
If you aren't scared of Covid, good on you. But you should definitely be scared about getting sick with ANYTHING else right now. Or your kid, or your parent, or your sibling. Because their quality of care is going to fucking suck.
If we assume the above is true, then why are we even talking about mandating COVID shots for healthcare workers which will force even more of them to quit?
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Let's not forget that in our discussions around this new variant and lockdowns and masks that the picture is much bigger than all of this.
The healthcare system - at least in the states (I cannot speak to anywhere else) is on the verge of collapse.
My 51 year old sister did not die with Covid in her body but she definitely died because of Covid. Because her general practitioner didn't have the time for a proper medical exam. The doctors and nurses in 2 separate hospitals were so overwhelmed they missed her heart failure. She had to be waitlisted for a pulmonologist from September until January (didn't live that long) and the cardiologist was more than into March for a new patient work up.
Healthcare workers are quitting in droves.
If you aren't scared of Covid, good on you. But you should definitely be scared about getting sick with ANYTHING else right now. Or your kid, or your parent, or your sibling. Because their quality of care is going to fucking suck.
If we assume the above is true, then why are we even talking about mandating COVID shots for healthcare workers which will force even more of them to quit?
Even if the mandates magically went away, the point remains. And I'm not sure why you would think I would be less than truthful about that which killed my sister.
https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-11-15/us-faces-crisis-of-burned-out-health-care-workers
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what we know about COVID changes all the time
I know I'm being repetitive but again I really disagree with this framing. We know it's highly transmissible (to everyone) and mostly only causes serious symptoms in specific risk groups. Everyone is going to get it at some point, and for most people it won't be a serious problem. How it attacks people on an individual basis is still something we're learning a lot about, but that isn't a social policy problem unless they find something truly out there.
The best reason I've seen is concern about overflowing the healthcare system. But even if the average person has some duty to prevent this, wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to just write checks to build more capacity?
We can also write checks for a time machine to train more doctors and nurses to occupy that capacity, but they won't cash.
m? If China can build a skyscraper in a week we can repurpose buildings and buy medical equipment to make sure people have access to healthcare. I guess my intuition could be completely wrong, but I think that would be cheaper than the cost of marketing and enforcing social restrictions that many people don't comply with anyway. I just talked to someone from Los Angeles, one of the most restrictive areas in the US, and he told me the policies are a joke and no one listens to them.
Again, I'm zero percent worried for myself, I trust the vaccines to do their job enough that I have no anxiety. For myself. But there are so many people in so many situations that would not benefit from Covid getting out of hand again, not the least of which the unvaccinated, as much as some of them want to lower the global quality of life with their stupid little antivax games during a pandemic. I don't want people to die or end up in the hospital because they assessed the situation poorly. Yes, deaths from the new variant have been reported.
If someone's out in public, they're making a personal evaluation of the risk and deciding it's worth it. Why is that your problem?
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Let's not forget that in our discussions around this new variant and lockdowns and masks that the picture is much bigger than all of this.
The healthcare system - at least in the states (I cannot speak to anywhere else) is on the verge of collapse.
My 51 year old sister did not die with Covid in her body but she definitely died because of Covid. Because her general practitioner didn't have the time for a proper medical exam. The doctors and nurses in 2 separate hospitals were so overwhelmed they missed her heart failure. She had to be waitlisted for a pulmonologist from September until January (didn't live that long) and the cardiologist was more than into March for a new patient work up.
Healthcare workers are quitting in droves.
If you aren't scared of Covid, good on you. But you should definitely be scared about getting sick with ANYTHING else right now. Or your kid, or your parent, or your sibling. Because their quality of care is going to fucking suck.
If we assume the above is true, then why are we even talking about mandating COVID shots for healthcare workers which will force even more of them to quit?
And I'm not sure why you would think I would be less than truthful about that which killed my sister.
I worded my post thoughtlessly and I apologize.
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The best reason I've seen is concern about overflowing the healthcare system. But even if the average person has some duty to prevent this, wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to just write checks to build more capacity?
We can also write checks for a time machine to train more doctors and nurses to occupy that capacity, but they won't cash.
m? If China can build a skyscraper in a week we can repurpose buildings and buy medical equipment to make sure people have access to healthcare.
I think her point was that you can create all the new hospitals you want and stock them full of patients, it won't do much good without a corresponding batch of doctors, nurses and trained professionals to occupy those new hospitals and work all that new equipment.
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"We shouldn't have restrictions or rules because people won't follow them" is a bad argument. You need to come up with rules that people will follow, and rules that actually help the situation. I raged about a lot of these unhelpful rules last year, but anything that actually limits contacts while providing an alternative to the activity you want to be doing is a helpful restriction. I agree that indoor masking for prolonged periods of time even with surgical masks properly worn (let alone regular cloth) is so many levels below vaccination as a method of defense that talking about masks so much still means we failed at vaccinating, but do they "impose" protective clothing on you in the army? Do they "impose" the right shoes on you when you go rock climbing? I don't wanna wear anything I don't wanna wear or do anything I don't wanna do either, but... tough shit. We should have the best masks we can afford and wear them and wear them properly.
Yesterday at work we had to explain to a bunch of four and five year olds that this year, because of the new restrictions, Santa will come and visit them but we will only wave at him as he shows up at the door, and he will slide the bag of presents over instead of handing them out. They accepted it completely rationally, as they accept the other one million little kindergarten rules every day. What's the other option? This is daily life now, whether we like it or not. When I was a kid, there were months where I had to accept that during some hours the power doesn't come on and we have to light candles and listen to the radio. Some kids had to accept a lot worse than that. As adults, we should accept that there are situations out of our control and still try to contribute as best we can.
There's no alternative to limiting contacts if you want to slow the infection rate a little with something this crazy transmissible. And you want to slow it until you have either a silver bullet dominant variant (which Omicron may be but we still don't know) or a vaccinated population. Letting the virus burn through unprotected or partially protected populations is bad. Letting a variant take over before we have any solid info on it is bad.
If someone's out in public, they're making a personal evaluation of the risk and deciding it's worth it. Why is that your problem?
Again, I'm the one who made a risk evaluation and I'm out in public - not now, but before we got this news. I was at a concert with 11 000 people with no proof of vaccination or masks (just a relatively highly vaccinated population) in November because I estimated I knew enough about how delta behaves in my region with vaccinated people that I don't think I'll contribute to a terrible spike or end up really sick. My estimation was correct. My problem is that we did this with delta in the beginning, insisting it doesn't change a thing, and we were only fortunate that it didn't kick our asses as much as it could have.
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The best reason I've seen is concern about overflowing the healthcare system. But even if the average person has some duty to prevent this, wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to just write checks to build more capacity?
We can also write checks for a time machine to train more doctors and nurses to occupy that capacity, but they won't cash.
m? If China can build a skyscraper in a week we can repurpose buildings and buy medical equipment to make sure people have access to healthcare.
I think her point was that you can create all the new hospitals you want and stock them full of patients, it won't do much good without a corresponding batch of doctors, nurses and trained professionals to occupy those new hospitals and work all that new equipment.
Yeah you're right. Didn't read it correctly.
I think where the posts about the US Healthcare system bother me, with the understanding that they are sincerely intentioned, is that they're trying to frame the problem as something specific to COVID when really this has been building for a while. Yes some of it is media spin. Yes the media likes a good human interest story about overworked people, and they spin up a hospital capacity story every flu season. And to some degree hospital capacity is undercounted because some of the reserve capacity can be opened immediately if needed. But ultimately it does come back to how the US Healthcare system is a giant game of doing the least possible while getting paid the most possible. This is true in any business but between the care providers, insurance agencies, and a million other bureaucracies, it's so intricate as to make any normal person's head spin.
I still think building more capacity is probably worth it. Ending COVID shot mandates is absolutely essential to not bleed off more staff. Maybe you could subsidize pay for healthcare workers to incentive them to come back. I think everyone has their price but worry about the longer term issues. But this is not a COVID problem and it's a problem with how the US Healthcare system is broken.
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- I am only aware of two controlled studies on masks (though have heard there are more). Neither conclusively showed that masks do anything to lower transmission. One of the studies kinda sorta showed that they might help for older people, but that study (the Bangladeshi one) was based off of people self-reporting symptoms rather than any scheduled testing. Masks fail the basic smell test anyway. I wore mine without complaint for months because the understanding at the time was COVID might spread through the moisture droplets we breathe out. Once we found that COVID spread through air particles, they become pointless. If you have multiple people in a room with cloth masks, even if the cloth is trapping 50% of the COVID particles per breath, the collective result of multiple people breathing indoors is hotboxing the room with COVID. Even if you want to go with an N95 mandate, they need to be worn correctly which most people won't do. People have a right to not be compelled to wear things they don't want to. There's no where near sufficient evidence around mask wearing to justify violating that right
Well here is a meta analysis that looked at over 5000 papers, filtered down to 6 studies that had strict requirements on lab verified cases, testing requirements etc, that states that mask wearing is associated with an odds ratio of around 0.38 when looking at covid positive outcomes.
https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/sd/pii/S0196655320310439?token=626149079A9AB891D90769E87549880D2FCAC47969AF31C7B02A9DD5E16F427E53FFE3174E805FFBC7B6F2C60515BC7D&originRegion=eu-west-1&originCreation=20211223225610
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"We shouldn't have restrictions or rules because people won't follow them" is a bad argument. You need to come up with rules that people will follow, and rules that actually help the situation.
But what guarantees that a rule will be followed? With any law or rule there's an expectation of how many people will follow it, and there's going to be an enforcement cost. With the COVID restrictions, you either get selective enforcement (parts of the US) or a police state (Australia or New Zealand). I don't know if this is more true in the US than in other countries, but generally our selectively enforced rules tend to sweep up the most disadvantaged segments of our society. Police state tactics tend to go over very poorly.
I raged about a lot of these unhelpful rules last year, but anything that actually limits contacts while providing an alternative to the activity you want to be doing is a helpful restriction. I agree that indoor masking for prolonged periods of time even with surgical masks properly worn (let alone regular cloth) is so many levels below vaccination as a method of defense that talking about masks so much still means we failed at vaccinating, but do they "impose" protective clothing on you in the army? Do they "impose" the right shoes on you when you go rock climbing? I don't wanna wear anything I don't wanna wear or do anything I don't wanna do either, but... tough shit. We should have the best masks we can afford and wear them and wear them properly.
I do agree with you that the focus on masks has been a major strategic blunder in terms of taking attention away from more productive solutions.
When you join the military you sign a contract with your government essentially saying they own you. Ordinary citizens do not do this.
As for the rock climbing thing, that gets more into what restrictions private businesses impose rather than the government. I have serious issues with private businesses mandating a lot of things, but there's more nuance to that.
Yesterday at work we had to explain to a bunch of four and five year olds that this year, because of the new restrictions, Santa will come and visit them but we will only wave at him as he shows up at the door, and he will slide the bag of presents over instead of handing them out. They accepted it completely rationally, as they accept the other one million little kindergarten rules every day. What's the other option? This is daily life now, whether we like it or not. When I was a kid, there were months where I had to accept that during some hours the power doesn't come on and we have to light candles and listen to the radio. Some kids had to accept a lot worse than that. As adults, we should accept that there are situations out of our control and still try to contribute as best we can.
Your story about the power going out is sad. I hope you and presumably your family are out of that situation.
COVID policy is completely within our control though. If we collectively decided to end all restrictions tomorrow then they would be over.
And I guess on a more fundamental level I just don't have it in me to say 'it sucks, deal with it.' Yes you have to be realistic and pick your battles. I've been undergoing medical treatment yet and masks are still stringently enforced in those facilities. Do I really care about freedom or do I need my health problems resolved? But as much as I can I avoid anything that brings me into any sort of contact with having to change anything I do because of COVID policy. There is at least one business I really like but will not give money to until they fix their requirements.
There's no alternative to limiting contacts if you want to slow the infection rate a little with something this crazy transmissible. And you want to slow it until you have either a silver bullet dominant variant (which Omicron may be but we still don't know) or a vaccinated population. Letting the virus burn through unprotected or partially protected populations is bad. Letting a variant take over before we have any solid info on it is bad.
At one point when it looked like I actually had COVID I kept my shopping to nighttime hours when fewer people were in the store. For people who actually are sick I think it's wisest to stay home. Not just a COVID thing. When I still worked at an office at one point we had 20 people out of an 80 person department out sick. Perhaps if 2-3 people stayed home it would not have an issue.
But unless we're dealing with something like airborne smallpox, I don't see how we can possibly hold people accountable for maybe spreading a virus asymptomatically or maybe being at risk of getting it from an asymptomatic person. Just living in a constant state of fear and in the end it can't be controlled anyway.
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"We shouldn't have restrictions or rules because people won't follow them" is a bad argument. You need to come up with rules that people will follow, and rules that actually help the situation.
This is at least exactly what I'm saying and where I disagree with jingle who was railing against movie theaters and movie theaters and gym classes. There are ways to get back to life safely.
This thread is just all kinds of confused and we have people talking way past each other.
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- I am only aware of two controlled studies on masks (though have heard there are more). Neither conclusively showed that masks do anything to lower transmission. One of the studies kinda sorta showed that they might help for older people, but that study (the Bangladeshi one) was based off of people self-reporting symptoms rather than any scheduled testing. Masks fail the basic smell test anyway. I wore mine without complaint for months because the understanding at the time was COVID might spread through the moisture droplets we breathe out. Once we found that COVID spread through air particles, they become pointless. If you have multiple people in a room with cloth masks, even if the cloth is trapping 50% of the COVID particles per breath, the collective result of multiple people breathing indoors is hotboxing the room with COVID. Even if you want to go with an N95 mandate, they need to be worn correctly which most people won't do. People have a right to not be compelled to wear things they don't want to. There's no where near sufficient evidence around mask wearing to justify violating that right
Well here is a meta analysis that looked at over 5000 papers, filtered down to 6 studies that had strict requirements on lab verified cases, testing requirements etc, that states that mask wearing is associated with an odds ratio of around 0.38 when looking at covid positive outcomes.
https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/sd/pii/S0196655320310439?token=626149079A9AB891D90769E87549880D2FCAC47969AF31C7B02A9DD5E16F427E53FFE3174E805FFBC7B6F2C60515BC7D&originRegion=eu-west-1&originCreation=20211223225610
These are still case control studies though rather than randomized control trials. I hate to poop on them too much knowing my own biases, but I'm not sure what they prove either. The authors of this meta-analysis even acknowledge that in their paper.
Something you pointed out and I agree with is that there was a sincere effort at quality control here, which is better than some of the junk out there about COVID (on both sides).
But there are still weird results in here. In their adjusted numbers, being in China and wearing a mask is more associated with preventing COVID than wearing an N95? The super low numbers from China bother me in general. Unless I'm supposed to believe their national case numbers, I don't know how I can look at such a drastic improvement relative to every other group they break out and not wonder what's going on.
Only one of the studies looks at non-healthcare workers. After they apply their random effect adjustment and adjust for subgroups (it looks like they're applying that before the studies are combined), the odds ratio is .78. If I'm understanding that statistic correctly, a 1 means the two are not correlated. But then they say after adjusting for confounding variables the ratio goes down to .23. But I don't see any information on how this confounding variable adjustment was applied.
If I go into the Doung (non-Healthcare) study and look at their breakdown, I see the .78 odds ratio again. And then the number gets lower as you add a medical mask. Interestingly, wearing a mask sometimes gives you .75, wearing always give you .16. But do they have a breakdown in those subgroups of what types of masks are being used there? More significant in terms of odds in that study is duration of contact, which seems logical.
But looking at both the Doung study and the meta-analysis, I'm not sure how they adjusted down to .23. It's possible I'm missing something obvious but it seems like a black box.
It's possible I guess that for healthcare workers in healthcare environments a mask might help. If they're working in more ventilated areas maybe the cloth mask is enough to help? But on the other hand maybe the non-mask wearing members of these studies are less sanitary in general. When it comes to masks, the healthcare side of it matters less to me.
My concern with mask policies is with the general population, and I'm not seeing anything here that tells me they're a significant factor. But again perhaps I'm missing something
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Your story about the power going out is sad. I hope you and presumably your family are out of that situation.
COVID policy is completely within our control though. If we collectively decided to end all restrictions tomorrow then they would be over.
And I guess on a more fundamental level I just don't have it in me to say 'it sucks, deal with it.' Yes you have to be realistic and pick your battles. I've been undergoing medical treatment yet and masks are still stringently enforced in those facilities. Do I really care about freedom or do I need my health problems resolved? But as much as I can I avoid anything that brings me into any sort of contact with having to change anything I do because of COVID policy. There is at least one business I really like but will not give money to until they fix their requirements.
I wrote about this already in the thread, so I just paraphrased it for the purposes of this post - they were country-wide power restrictions. Among many other more notable things, but the power restrictions were the first thing that clued me into knowing it's not just my family that's poor, I just live in a crappy place in a crappy time. Sometimes crappy times happen to literally everyone you know - natural disasters and their consequences, boots on the ground near you, dictatorships, an economic crisis hitting a vulnerable country or city particularly hard and at once, etc.
Covid is the first time the average youngish western person has experienced this and I get the reflex to say that if only we did One Smart Thing and decided the restrictions were over, they would be over and everything would be fine because we all manage our own risks. But there's no one neat trick, sometimes you fight a strong enemy for a real long time with the best weapons you have and still suffer defeat after defeat. Covid doesn't care how much we wish all the restrictions were taken away, because it's going to kick our ass as soon as they are taken away, as it did every time. There's not a lot of individual accountability to be handed out in a global pandemic, and most of it should go to literal snake oil salesmen and active antivax preachers anyway, but it's not good to pre-emptively decide every new variant is as good as dominant because we can't be assed trying to control it in any way.
There are ways to get back to life safely.
Yes, but some parts of life are inherently unsafe during Covid spikes, and if you know someone suffering from the consequences of throwing caution to the wind, preaching caution is expected, a spike in cases from people going out to party will (especially with the new variant) infect someone catching the bus to work. Sucks if the movie theater the way it used to be is your favorite part - seeing international bands on tour is literally the only thing I wanna do. Doesn't mean that Chad is automatically wrong when he "rails" against that - at first people by and large ignored Covid and then ignored every subsequent variant, and maybe if we're on variant #4 or #5 we should at the very least consider not doing that anymore.
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I wrote about this already in the thread, so I just paraphrased it for the purposes of this post - they were country-wide power restrictions. Among many other more notable things, but the power restrictions were the first thing that clued me into knowing it's not just my family that's poor, I just live in a crappy place in a crappy time. Sometimes crappy times happen to literally everyone you know - natural disasters and their consequences, boots on the ground near you, dictatorships, an economic crisis hitting a vulnerable country or city particularly hard and at once, etc.
Covid is the first time the average youngish western person has experienced this and I get the reflex to say that if only we did One Smart Thing and decided the restrictions were over, they would be over and everything would be fine because we all manage our own risks. But there's no one neat trick, sometimes you fight a strong enemy for a real long time with the best weapons you have and still suffer defeat after defeat. Covid doesn't care how much we wish all the restrictions were taken away, because it's going to kick our ass as soon as they are taken away, as it did every time. There's not a lot of individual accountability to be handed out in a global pandemic, and most of it should go to literal snake oil salesmen and active antivax preachers anyway, but it's not good to pre-emptively decide every new variant is as good as dominant because we can't be assed trying to control it in any way.
Yeah that situation you mentioned sounds really bad. Again I hope you're not there anymore.
But I guess though I'd frame the analogy differently. Because you're talking about COVID itself as an unstoppable force of nature we keep having problems with.
The real problems with COVID though, the economic stress and the health stress, I think are almost entirely driven by the societal response we decided to go with. If we had decided in March 2020 to rush the vaccine development but otherwise live life as normal, I think most peoples' lives would be substantially the same as they were in February. March and April would have possibly been harder due to stress on the healthcare system, but better to take a couple months of difficulty than the ongoing two year saga we're living in now. Whenever I read or hear someone talk about hardships suffered during "the pandemic", my mind thinks "no, the hardships due to our government's response to COVID" (unless the story is about someone actually suffering from COVID).
Like you were talking about how the different variants have different effects, and I guess this is anecdotal, but during the initial wave of COVID if someone got it I knew a story of battling a severe illness was coming. When Delta showed up more people had it but it was more like "oh I had a bad cough" or "I couldn't smell for a couple weeks." Still bad symptoms but less scary than the initial wave. The case counts were higher but in terms of their effect on individual people it was more mild. Seems to me like an improvement. Seems like our immune systems forced COVID to become less deadly and humanity won. And it seems with Omicron we won again by forcing it to be even more mild.
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Yes, but some parts of life are inherently unsafe during Covid spikes, and if you know someone suffering from the consequences of throwing caution to the wind, preaching caution is expected, a spike in cases from people going out to party will (especially with the new variant) infect someone catching the bus to work. Sucks if the movie theater the way it used to be is your favorite part - seeing international bands on tour is literally the only thing I wanna do. Doesn't mean that Chad is automatically wrong when he "rails" against that - at first people by and large ignored Covid and then ignored every subsequent variant, and maybe if we're on variant #4 or #5 we should at the very least consider not doing that anymore.
But where is the evidence as to what parts of life are "inherently unsafe"? And what parts of those parts? This is the problem. We have people criticizing others for living with some type of normalcy. Well we've had a long time to figure out what's safe and what isn't, haven't we? And the CDC have definitions around close contact as well as other guidance that we can follow. So I personally do not believe that something is suddenly unsafe just because the numbers are rising and there is anxiety over "doing something". With all due respect, there are people in this thread who have shared that they have not done a single thing face-to-face since the pandemic started, even though there have been stretches of time when it is pretty much widely agreed upon that there are ways to meet safely face-to-face, both then and now. That is not a burden you can put on the entire world population.
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- I am only aware of two controlled studies on masks (though have heard there are more). Neither conclusively showed that masks do anything to lower transmission. One of the studies kinda sorta showed that they might help for older people, but that study (the Bangladeshi one) was based off of people self-reporting symptoms rather than any scheduled testing. Masks fail the basic smell test anyway. I wore mine without complaint for months because the understanding at the time was COVID might spread through the moisture droplets we breathe out. Once we found that COVID spread through air particles, they become pointless. If you have multiple people in a room with cloth masks, even if the cloth is trapping 50% of the COVID particles per breath, the collective result of multiple people breathing indoors is hotboxing the room with COVID. Even if you want to go with an N95 mandate, they need to be worn correctly which most people won't do. People have a right to not be compelled to wear things they don't want to. There's no where near sufficient evidence around mask wearing to justify violating that right
Well here is a meta analysis that looked at over 5000 papers, filtered down to 6 studies that had strict requirements on lab verified cases, testing requirements etc, that states that mask wearing is associated with an odds ratio of around 0.38 when looking at covid positive outcomes.
https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/sd/pii/S0196655320310439?token=626149079A9AB891D90769E87549880D2FCAC47969AF31C7B02A9DD5E16F427E53FFE3174E805FFBC7B6F2C60515BC7D&originRegion=eu-west-1&originCreation=20211223225610
These are still case control studies though rather than randomized control trials. I hate to poop on them too much knowing my own biases, but I'm not sure what they prove either. The authors of this meta-analysis even acknowledge that in their paper.
Something you pointed out and I agree with is that there was a sincere effort at quality control here, which is better than some of the junk out there about COVID (on both sides).
But there are still weird results in here. In their adjusted numbers, being in China and wearing a mask is more associated with preventing COVID than wearing an N95? The super low numbers from China bother me in general. Unless I'm supposed to believe their national case numbers, I don't know how I can look at such a drastic improvement relative to every other group they break out and not wonder what's going on.
Only one of the studies looks at non-healthcare workers. After they apply their random effect adjustment and adjust for subgroups (it looks like they're applying that before the studies are combined), the odds ratio is .78. If I'm understanding that statistic correctly, a 1 means the two are not correlated. But then they say after adjusting for confounding variables the ratio goes down to .23. But I don't see any information on how this confounding variable adjustment was applied.
If I go into the Doung (non-Healthcare) study and look at their breakdown, I see the .78 odds ratio again. And then the number gets lower as you add a medical mask. Interestingly, wearing a mask sometimes gives you .75, wearing always give you .16. But do they have a breakdown in those subgroups of what types of masks are being used there? More significant in terms of odds in that study is duration of contact, which seems logical.
But looking at both the Doung study and the meta-analysis, I'm not sure how they adjusted down to .23. It's possible I'm missing something obvious but it seems like a black box.
It's possible I guess that for healthcare workers in healthcare environments a mask might help. If they're working in more ventilated areas maybe the cloth mask is enough to help? But on the other hand maybe the non-mask wearing members of these studies are less sanitary in general. When it comes to masks, the healthcare side of it matters less to me.
My concern with mask policies is with the general population, and I'm not seeing anything here that tells me they're a significant factor. But again perhaps I'm missing something
Well, if I may offer some alternate perspective, please consider the following points:
1. A masks effectiveness in preventing spread does not just depend on its ability to filter out/capture aerosols. Respiratory Aerosols with diameter greater than 5 um typically fall to the ground within 2m (hence the social distancing recommendations). This size of aerosol is both large enough to be filtered reasonably effectively by most/all mask types, and additionally the mask will reduce the velocity of those that do escape significantly, reducing their ability to spread even further.
2. Viral load (i.e how many viruses a person is exposed to) affects how severe the disease can be,
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0258421
so even partial effectiveness of a mask can assist in reducing the number of patients who experience severe complications of the disease simply by limiting the total number of viruses in the local atmosphere (which would be even more important in less well ventilated areas.)
3. There are very few places that have absolutely not ventilation. In this case, the total viral concentration in the local atmosphere is going to reach an equilibrium based on the input (from infected persons) vs output (based on the air changes per minute). Any measure which reduces the input, even imperfect ones, leads to the equilibrium shifting towards lower concentrations, which in turn reduces the chances of an person in that atmosphere being infected.
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The viral load argument is very fair. I just don't know how you prove the degree to which it has influence in the real world. You could test it in a laboratory but the real world has a million different variables.
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I'm not sure you need proof. As far as I am aware, there are no viable mechanisms by which using a mask INCREASES your chance of airbourne inhalation, so at worst masks do nothing, but if they do anything that is better than nothing, and is a cheap and easily applied measure.
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Haven't been able to read this page yet - I'll do so over my morning coffee. I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest with my rant that (Western) society largely acts entitled and privileged - related to COVID or not, I'm not sure anyone can really argue that point.
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There's no where near sufficient evidence around mask wearing to justify violating that right
Not this shit again. No "rights" are being violated under mask mandates. Unless I'm misunderstanding your comment.
@ Tim's post. I agree. In a time where we have many diametrically opposed issues (ie, it's impossible to solve both/multiple at the same time), which do you chose / which do you sacrifice? It's almost like medical triage... ABC - Airway, Breathing, Circulation. What are the ABC's of society?
Healthy happy and productive people. Impossible under a COVID mitigation regime.
Ok, so you yourself cited "healthy" as the first criteria/priority that we have to focus on; happy as second; productive as 3rd. Completely reasonable, and I'm fully on board. To me, restrictions* have a net positive effect on the first priority (health), but net negative on the 2nd and 3rd. So if those are your ABC's to triage the pandemic, I'm unclear the resistance to restrictions.
*I'm lumping a variety of things into the term "restrictions" ... capacity limits, distancing and mask mandates, wfh/virtual schooling requirements; event postponements/cancellations, vax requirements. I AM COMPLETELY OPPOSED TO FULL LOCKDOWNS like we had in wave 1 and 2. I'm not a fan of school closures either, but see them as a means to an end.
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I agree that indoor masking for prolonged periods of time even with surgical masks properly worn (let alone regular cloth) is so many levels below vaccination as a method of defense that talking about masks so much still means we failed at vaccinating,
This isn't directed at you Milena, I'm just using/quoting your comment to introduce this point regarding vax + masking. I'm unsure why some can't comprehend that BOTH provides more protection than either one alone. It's not like we all stop using seatbelts once airbags came into place. The combination of both provides better protection.
As adults, we should accept that there are situations out of our control and still try to contribute as best we can.
There's no alternative to limiting contacts if you want to slow the infection rate a little with something this crazy transmissible. And you want to slow it until you have either a silver bullet dominant variant (which Omicron may be but we still don't know) or a vaccinated population. Letting the virus burn through unprotected or partially protected populations is bad. Letting a variant take over before we have any solid info on it is bad.
Amen to both these points. Sing it sister! :lol
If someone's out in public drunk driving, they're making a personal evaluation of the risk and deciding it's worth it. Why is that your problem?
If I add these two little words to this comment, does your question still hold?
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I apologize if it seems like I'm harping on you Reap ... I don't mean to be if it's coming across as such. Based on some of your other comments, you're taking a number of reasonable steps to do 'your part'. But there's a couple of comments I want to tug at, and I'm hoping I'm not talking past you.
But ultimately it does come back to how the US Healthcare system is a giant game of doing the least possible while getting paid the most possible. This is true in any business but between the care providers, insurance agencies, and a million other bureaucracies, it's so intricate as to make any normal person's head spin.
I might agree with this, if it weren't for the fact that most global healthcare systems are buckling under this. We sure are here in Canada; NHS is in the UK, and we know other areas of Europe are getting crushed as well.
And I guess on a more fundamental level I just don't have it in me to say 'it sucks, deal with it.' Yes you have to be realistic and pick your battles.
So is the alternative to say "it sucks, so I won't deal with it". Where does that leave us? Is that going to accelerate the end of the pandemic?
But unless we're dealing with something like airborne smallpox, I don't see how we can possibly hold people accountable for maybe spreading a virus asymptomatically or maybe being at risk of getting it from an asymptomatic person. Just living in a constant state of fear and in the end it can't be controlled anyway.
I don't think it's a matter of holding people accountable for things they unknowingly do (or living in a constant state of fear). For me, I'm just hyper aware of the potential implications of my decisions, and would like to see more people recognize the risks of their actions/choices on society. For instance, jingle.daughter has a friend who was exposed to someone who had recent contact with a known COVID positive person. jingle.daughter's friend is now choosing to (mostly) isolate until she knows if the person *she* was in contact with is COVID positive. It's those kinds of decisions I appreciate, and think need to happen with more regularity - because the daily case count in Ontario MORE THAN DOUBLED FROM YESTERDAY (4400 yesterday; 9500 today).
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Seems like our immune systems forced COVID to become less deadly and humanity won. And it seems with Omicron we won again by forcing it to be even more mild.
While this may be true in the end, expert after expert is warning that this is a dangerous belief to hold this early into the spread of the variant. VERY dangerous. Whether anecdotal, media reports, or non-peer reviewed studies. This is a nice notion to hope for, but what if it's not the case? I've always approached everything COVID with the attitude that I'd rather make the mistake of being overly cautious, than the bigger mistake of not being cautious enough.
And even if it is more mild, given how the quickly and easily it is spreading, it's not mild enough to NOT put a burden on healthcare. A single match won't burn wet leaves, but a raging forest fire will. Omicron is becoming / has become a raging forest fire in many places already. Other countries are sending out warning signals (see, my above comment ... DOUBLE the case count in one day). The spread of this variant will very likely find the unvax'd; the immune compromised; the elderly; the double-vax'd (data is showing this group has a higher chance of hospitalization from Omicron vs Delta); healthcare workers (who then can't work because they would expose the vulnerable).
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I can't speak to other places but in a news segment about NYC they posted a side by side of current hospitalizations vs the height of the pandemic and it was about 970 at the worst and 54 currently which made me laugh. They're trying hard to make omicron seem scary but I'm not surprised that the vast majority of people aren't buying what they're trying to sell.
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Not sure what NYCs daily case count is, but as we approach 10,000 per day here in Ontario (12M population; 80% vax’d), even if 1/2% require hospitalization at some point, it doesn’t take long for that to add up - especially while case counts continue to climb.
I hope you all can laugh at me in a month or two and say “I’d told you so”. IMO, it’s too early to slough these data points off, while medical and disease experts are ringing the warning bells.
https://www.cp24.com/news/model-projects-10-000-covid-19-cases-daily-by-january-in-ontario-without-more-boosters-and-public-health-measures-1.5709731
Just 8 days ago, the warning was 10k/day by January. Looks like we’re a week ahead of schedule - and that’s WITH an aggressive booster rollout, and restrictions.
Like hurricane preparedness, the time to act is before the storm arrives.
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You'll forgive me if I don't board up the windows and spend my life savings on sandbags for a light drizzle, no matter how many of my neighbors hysterically scream "hurricane!"
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I mean, if your neighbours included a good number of renowned meteorologists, and the light drizzle was already killing as many people 9/11 did nationwide on a daily basis, you might at least think about putting on a coat. Or staying inside for a bit. Especially if the severity of the hurricane depended on how many people were outside.
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There's no where near sufficient evidence around mask wearing to justify violating that right
Not this shit again. No "rights" are being violated under mask mandates. Unless I'm misunderstanding your comment.
I'm not sure you need proof. As far as I am aware, there are no viable mechanisms by which using a mask INCREASES your chance of airbourne inhalation, so at worst masks do nothing, but if they do anything that is better than nothing, and is a cheap and easily applied measure.
Yes you have a right to wear whatever clothes you want. In the US at least the only things we restrict tend to be virtually universally accepted standards of public decency.
Unless you can prove that masks substantially reduce the risk of transmitting a highly dangerous disease, there is no basis to mandate wearing them. I see none of these conditions fulfilled. And until I see that evidence myself I'm not making a personal decision to wear one. I find them uncomfortable and creepy.
@ Tim's post. I agree. In a time where we have many diametrically opposed issues (ie, it's impossible to solve both/multiple at the same time), which do you chose / which do you sacrifice? It's almost like medical triage... ABC - Airway, Breathing, Circulation. What are the ABC's of society?
Healthy happy and productive people. Impossible under a COVID mitigation regime.
Ok, so you yourself cited "healthy" as the first criteria/priority that we have to focus on; happy as second; productive as 3rd. Completely reasonable, and I'm fully on board. To me, restrictions* have a net positive effect on the first priority (health), but net negative on the 2nd and 3rd. So if those are your ABC's to triage the pandemic, I'm unclear the resistance to restrictions.
*I'm lumping a variety of things into the term "restrictions" ... capacity limits, distancing and mask mandates, wfh/virtual schooling requirements; event postponements/cancellations, vax requirements. I AM COMPLETELY OPPOSED TO FULL LOCKDOWNS like we had in wave 1 and 2. I'm not a fan of school closures either, but see them as a means to an end.
You need to be happy and productive to be healthy. Depressed people are more likely to develop emotional disorders and other unhealthy life habits including over-eating and self-harm. Hard to be healthy if you aren't making money.
I've seen this general line of argument basically saying - okay yes full lockdowns have a lot of bad second order effects but we can knuckle up and learn to handle restrictions. Even these restrictions still make day-to-day life an onerous exercise where it's hard to be propserous unless you're a big corporation, work a WiFi job, or are an internet entrepreneur. Everyone else gets Netflix and barely surviving.
If someone's out in public drunk driving, they're making a personal evaluation of the risk and deciding it's worth it. Why is that your problem?
If I add these two little words to this comment, does your question still hold?
Better question - Should it be illegal for people to drive to bars because they might get drunk and drive home?
Seems like our immune systems forced COVID to become less deadly and humanity won. And it seems with Omicron we won again by forcing it to be even more mild.
While this may be true in the end, expert after expert is warning that this is a dangerous belief to hold this early into the spread of the variant. VERY dangerous. Whether anecdotal, media reports, or non-peer reviewed studies. This is a nice notion to hope for, but what if it's not the case? I've always approached everything COVID with the attitude that I'd rather make the mistake of being overly cautious, than the bigger mistake of not being cautious enough.
The various "COVID Experts" our public institutions shove into the face of the public are liars, idiots, and panic mongers. Their opinions are most useful as counter-signal. If they are saying a belief is dangerous, it is most likely logical.
https://www.cp24.com/news/model-projects-10-000-covid-19-cases-daily-by-january-in-ontario-without-more-boosters-and-public-health-measures-1.5709731
And this is a precise example. These models have consistently over-projected the consequences of COVID by multiple orders of magnitude. Either the people making and publicizing this model are too stupid to understand that or they are deliberately stoking panic for no reason.
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Have the models actually overpredicted? Or are you judging the models based on the worst case figures that the media promote while ignoring the confidence intervals and range of possible projections any model worth its salt made by competent scientists would surely include?
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Just took at-home tests before heading to my folks for Christmas and our 14 year old came up positive.
Merry Christmas.
Both my wife and I have been boosted and the kid has his two shots as well, so we hope everything is mild.
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Just took at-home tests before heading to my folks for Christmas and our 14 year old came up positive.
Merry Christmas.
Both my wife and I have been boosted and the kid has his two shots as well, so we hope everything is mild.
Stay safe. Hope you are still able to have a good day despite the plan changes.
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You'll forgive me if I don't board up the windows and spend my life savings on sandbags for a light drizzle, no matter how many of my neighbors hysterically scream "hurricane!"
Well, like XJ already pointed out, it's not hysterical neighbours screaming, but virologists, the medical system, epidemiologists ... but whatever. Make the facts fit into your worldview.
https://www.cp24.com/news/model-projects-10-000-covid-19-cases-daily-by-january-in-ontario-without-more-boosters-and-public-health-measures-1.5709731
And this is a precise example. These models have consistently over-projected the consequences of COVID by multiple orders of magnitude. Either the people making and publicizing this model are too stupid to understand that or they are deliberately stoking panic for no reason.
[/quote]
I'll state it again in case you missed it.... Ontario hit 9500 cases reported TODAY (ie, yesterdays tests). So I guess you're right, the model was off - it wasn't aggressive enough. Reality is proving (on a case count basis) to be much worse than the model.
I find it worrisome when people want to dismiss (inconvenient?) truths when it doesn't fit with their worldview. Seems as though the default for some here is to find holes, or dismiss what's happening to other regions of the world. That's fine, although it didn't work out so good during other waves of the pandemic. I hope it turns out better from here on out.
Sorry to hear that T-Ski. You did the right thing though in testing, and not risking any additional spread.
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You'll forgive me if I don't board up the windows and spend my life savings on sandbags for a light drizzle, no matter how many of my neighbors hysterically scream "hurricane!"
Well, like XJ already pointed out, it's not hysterical neighbours screaming, but virologists, the medical system, epidemiologists ... but whatever. Make the facts fit into your worldview.
These people tell us how the virus works, how it spreads and mutates, the potency of it, and so on. They do not tell us what we as a people should tolerate, or what sacrifices are worth stopping it. They tell us how it can be stopped, and then we have to decide what is worth what. The guidance published by the CDC allows us to go on with life reasonably safely. No scientist can tell you what amount of death is worth going into a full lockdown for.
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So how much is, in your view?
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So how much is, in your view?
This is not worth a prolonged lockdown to me especially because there is no end in site and we'll be living with the virus for years to come even if we the USA board people in their homes and have the national guard deliver rations to their doors.
What I am in favor for is doubling down on the restrictions we already have that we know allow us to be safe while greatly diminishing the transmissabillity of the virus. Temperature checks, masks in crowded places, 6 ft distancing, and of course VACCINES. I had to run out to Walmart today for some supplies and holy shit, what a zoo. Obviously we're not doing even what the CDC have suggested. That is the problem, IMO. Not people who have found ways to go to the gym and so on safetly.
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I am more amazed at how many people are out Christmas Shopping. If you wanted to stop this spread you would have had to also cancel christmas or at least get people to not go out and shop.
But that is an impossible task as people are out there buying the presents, packing the stores. If there were a time to implement the crowd limits this would've been that time. Also, the companies went out of their way to promote all the christmas crap, you think the department stores would want to take that loss again.
I'll say though, that this pandemic basically reality checked the entire structure of the western civilization the world currently lives by. That's what is being weighed by many people, and it will continue to be weighed as things keep going the way they are. People are going to snap, they're going to reach their breaking points and do things (hopefully beneficial). It's all because no one can control people. I have said this when this pandemic started and I myself am just sitting back watching the testing, and gradual unraveling, of the western civilization.
When humans gather to discuss and analyze life, a lot of them do not agree with one another. So how can you expect everyone to follow what one person determines for all to follow?...You can't as there will always be people who do not come to the same conclusion. That's why Leaders should listen to every word from every person of their society and gather a consensus to enact what the people want. If that's what the people want, that's what the people get. It's not beneficial at all for the leaders to ignore and neglect what the people want, it leads to turmoil from the people and the people have a threshold to how much they will take. When a storms been brewing and it rains, it pours.
I will also say this. I do not mind wearing a mask when required by the business, I do not care if the business doesn't require me to wear one either, so I won't if not required. I do not mind testing, it's what my tribe has been doing since the pandemic started and what I had to do to continue attending my university for the fall semester. I also always try to wash my hands under mid-way between warm and hot water, sometimes I would let my hands sit in the water because it's warm and feels good. I don't like having nasty things on my hands and will wash them whenever I get stuff on them. If anything, I am glad that more people are actually washing their hands, because why would you not wash your hands after taking a dump at wal-mart. :corn
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Sister in law who is fully vaccinated/boosted just tested positive. Spent the past two days with her. Everyone we were around the past two days are fully vaxxed. Our kiddos area scheduled to get their first shots Wednesday at their pediatricians….will have them tested then.
No symptoms here yet obviously but we spent two straight days with that side of the family so we shall see.
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I got an email Sunday afternoon from my church saying that someone who was at both services on Christmas Eve (we had two) has been diagnosed with Covid-19. They were vaccinated, masked, and asymptomatic. First, I'm wondering why if they weren't showing symptoms two days ago, how have they been diagnosed now. Apparently they started showing symptoms Saturday or Sunday, severe enough to get tested, and the test was positive. Dammit. I too was at both services, vaccinated and masked, but this is possible exposure.
What a fucking mess. My daughter is in town and will fly back Thursday. I've got a test scheduled for Monday morning, results in "1-2 days". I'm not afraid that I've got it; I'm dreading the nasal drilling. If I've got it, presumably it will be a relatively mild case since I'm fully vaxxed and boosted. Hopefully. Well, hopefully it comes back negative. Yay. If I'm negative, I'll assume the rest of my family is negative. Is that how it works?
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I can't speak to other places but in a news segment about NYC they posted a side by side of current hospitalizations vs the height of the pandemic and it was about 970 at the worst and 54 currently which made me laugh. They're trying hard to make omicron seem scary but I'm not surprised that the vast majority of people aren't buying what they're trying to sell.
Not sure where you got those numbers from, but they are not accurate. Yes, the current situation is not as bad as it was on spring of 2020, but I wouldn't underestimate what could happen over the next few weeks, given how hospitalization went up 100% in the last 7 days alone. At the beginning of the Pandemic, we had more than 18K people in the hospital, 5000 of which were in an ICU.
(https://i.imgur.com/5i3REo9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/oj0xTOr.jpg)
https://www.cp24.com/news/model-projects-10-000-covid-19-cases-daily-by-january-in-ontario-without-more-boosters-and-public-health-measures-1.5709731
And this is a precise example. These models have consistently over-projected the consequences of COVID by multiple orders of magnitude. Either the people making and publicizing this model are too stupid to understand that or they are deliberately stoking panic for no reason.
With all due respect, I do not see what you are stating here. Most models that we have seen have either been accurate or underestimated the numbers(Not over-projecting). Summer/Fall of 2020 the projections were "We might see 100K cases a day if we don't take action", well, we saw almost 300K cases a day(I think we surpassed 300K one day). "We will see 500K total death if we do not control the virus", we are well over 500K, and I wouldn't be surprised if we reach 1M before March.
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If the hospitals are getting swamped, that is a legit concern. Plus the medical staffing can be a big concern as well, my doctor friend who had covid bad last year, triple vaxxed, and just got covid again. As a doctor, he is now out for the week it seems.
Having said that, I know quite a bit of people with covid right now and so far none have more than a cold. BUT the older and more immunocompromised portion of the population can still have severe illness and also the unvaccinated could get pretty sick. (I'm assuming these are the people ending up in the hospital) Hopefully those people can do their best to stay safe because it's not going to get any better in the immediate future.
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My sister in law (Unvaccinated) and my brother in law (Vaccinated) both got it and were hit hard for 2 weeks. They are Trumpsters so it was funny that they kept silent about it because I'd guess of embarrassment for being so vocal that the vaccine was a sham. Brother in law was forced to get it or lose his job.
We didn't make a big deal about it. We waited for them to tell us then we asked questions in case we should ever get it.
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It's going through our hospital staff like wildfire. 27 were sent home over the weekend. All were vaccinated. Symptoms were like a cold. Some with high fever, others without. It's uber transmissible but mild compared to previous strains. Maybe this will infect everybody and we will get herd immunity.
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I can't speak to other places but in a news segment about NYC they posted a side by side of current hospitalizations vs the height of the pandemic and it was about 970 at the worst and 54 currently which made me laugh. They're trying hard to make omicron seem scary but I'm not surprised that the vast majority of people aren't buying what they're trying to sell.
Not sure where you got those numbers from, but they are not accurate. Yes, the current situation is not as bad as it was on spring of 2020, but I wouldn't underestimate what could happen over the next few weeks, given how hospitalization went up 100% in the last 7 days alone. At the beginning of the Pandemic, we had more than 18K people in the hospital, 5000 of which were in an ICU.
(https://i.imgur.com/5i3REo9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/oj0xTOr.jpg)
https://www.cp24.com/news/model-projects-10-000-covid-19-cases-daily-by-january-in-ontario-without-more-boosters-and-public-health-measures-1.5709731
And this is a precise example. These models have consistently over-projected the consequences of COVID by multiple orders of magnitude. Either the people making and publicizing this model are too stupid to understand that or they are deliberately stoking panic for no reason.
With all due respect, I do not see what you are stating here. Most models that we have seen have either been accurate or underestimated the numbers(Not over-projecting). Summer/Fall of 2020 the projections were "We might see 100K cases a day if we don't take action", well, we saw almost 300K cases a day(I think we surpassed 300K one day). "We will see 500K total death if we do not control the virus", we are well over 500K, and I wouldn't be surprised if we reach 1M before March.
Of course, even if all the numbers are spot on, there is still the fatal flaw in all that: "if we don't take action"; "if we don't control the virus". We can't control the fucking virus, and we have to stop with the delusion that we can. California, Florida. The "action" only serves to potentially, maybe increase - again, maybe - our individual odds with all these measures. We're not "stopping" shit, we're not "controlling" shit.
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Shitton of Xanax lady has been making the internet rounds. She is certainly "taking action!"
(https://img.ifunny.co/images/599d8d715e76a5a4f5be7e567584b68ff373579003d236144fe2ed9d8815707e_1.jpg)
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(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F776.gif&hash=7335006c7e20ca731c509aeb0c142781e348ae06)
Goddamn I hope that is sattire
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(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F776.gif&hash=7335006c7e20ca731c509aeb0c142781e348ae06)
Goddamn I hope that is sattire
Doubtful. Some people take pride in that kind of stuff. Got me.
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Poe's Law in full effect there.
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Found out a co-worker (who doesn't sit close to me) got a negative COVID test last week, but it was said that she had been coughing like mad for a week which is why she went and got the test. And of course my first thought was, "Thanks for coming to work for a week with a coughing fit."
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So our whole family is coughing up a storm. That dry cough where you always feel like your throat needs to be cleared. I took a home Covid test last night that came back negative.....the boys have an appointment tomorrow at 10:00am to get their first vaccination shot but obviously they're going to be tested prior to see if they're positive or not.
Had my sister in law not tested positive I'd say what we have is just a little cold or light flu.....but being that we spent two days in a row with her I'd wager we probably have Covid again. Reading through some things I see that I could have taken that at home test too soon which could have caused a false negative.
Going to wait to get tested until after we see what happens with the boys. My work has three people out with Covid right now.....all tested positive over Christmas break.
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Three days shy of the second anniversary of the news breaking (it's been already 2 years? geeez I feel that the lockdown was still "last spring"), I had to take a test, my very first one, a coworker resulted positive.
It's negative! :metal phew, I'll take another one in 48-72 hours just to make sure but I should be in the clear.
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Trying to navigate the maze of what the international travel restrictions are. What a convoluted mess. :lol I wish there was a straightforward description of exactly what is required.
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My 16-year old nephew and 15-year old niece both tested positive this morning. Ugh. :tdwn :tdwn
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Just took at-home tests before heading to my folks for Christmas and our 14 year old came up positive.
Merry Christmas.
Both my wife and I have been boosted and the kid has his two shots as well, so we hope everything is mild.
Been four days, the kid basically had symptoms associated with a mild cold and is now close to symptom free but now my wife has the same symptoms while I feel headachy. We all got officially tested yesterday and are awaiting the results.
How exciting.
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My test came back negative. Yay. Life goes on as
usual before.
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Just took at-home tests before heading to my folks for Christmas and our 14 year old came up positive.
Merry Christmas.
Both my wife and I have been boosted and the kid has his two shots as well, so we hope everything is mild.
Been four days, the kid basically had symptoms associated with a mild cold and is now close to symptom free but now my wife has the same symptoms while I feel headachy. We all got officially tested yesterday and are awaiting the results.
How exciting.
Kid is still positive, me and the wife are negative though my wife appears to have worse symptoms currently than our son did.
I don’t even know anymore.
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Our kiddos just tested positive....gonna do an at home test here in a bit to see if I have it as well. I'm sure we do......got me some fresh antibodies :metal
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Everyone feeling ok?
Hasn't really hit where we are. But Omicron ran through my sister's and mom's town right before Christmas, causing us to have to cancel our Christmas get together plans, unfortunately. Last I checked with her, about a dozen people in her circle of friends were positive. But only one of those felt sick enough to have to just stay in bed, and zero hospitalizations. Seems pretty consistent with the reports.
Finally got boosted yesterday too. The process was a lot faster and easier than the first round. Scheduled it at our local Sam's Club. Only hangup was that the guy who got there and got in line right before me for my appointment time along with his 3 kids was that he is not a Sam's member, which apparently caused a log jam in their computer system and caused us both to have to wait a bit. But no ill effects from the shot itself, other than a bit of arm soreness, just like last time.
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Trying to navigate the maze of what the international travel restrictions are. What a convoluted mess. :lol I wish there was a straightforward description of exactly what is required.
What are you trying to figure out? It's messy with each country being different, but basically you just need a negative test within 24 hours and proof of vaccination. At least that's what I needed last week when I travelled internationally.
Our kiddos just tested positive....gonna do an at home test here in a bit to see if I have it as well. I'm sure we do......got me some fresh antibodies :metal
It's very odd that I'm seeing a lot of stories where everyone in the household is sick accept like one person. It's not that different than the other strains we saw earlier that there's always like some exception to the rule or something odd. My brother in law was testing positive every day for a week and my sister was negative living in their small apartment together. My sister was the one exposed too to start the process of them getting tested. My good friend is covid positive, but his old immunocompomised parents are not (and yes, a near 40 year old living with his parents still) and that also happened when he got covid last year.
NJ is setting daily records for cases right now. It's like EVERYONE has cold symptoms right now. But not everyone is testing positive. I really get the feeling like everyone over here is getting exposure to the virus and some people have the robust immune system to not test positive IMO.
I went to a general admission concert last night. It was "sold out" but you could tell a lot of people didn't show up. It was far from packed, which was a good thing, but it felt like the deadest concert I've been to all year. It definitely seemed like covid was a concern and at least half the crowd was masked (it was usually like 10-20% in earlier shows at that venue).
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Just called my folks to fill them in on our situation and my Dad says, “if you go looking for trouble you’ll find it.”
For the first time in my life (I’m 49), I went completely off on my Dad.
I was shaking the whole time, dropping f-bomb after f-bomb and he just shook it off like I was the conspiracy theorist. My Mom told to shut up, which was nice, but his lackadaisical attitude to the the whole situation just put me over the top. Instead of thanking us for being proactive for testing ourselves before we met for Christmas, he’d rather scoff at us for “looking for trouble”.
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Our kiddos just tested positive....gonna do an at home test here in a bit to see if I have it as well. I'm sure we do......got me some fresh antibodies :metal
I don't remember, did your sons catch it the first time Gary?
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Our kiddos just tested positive....gonna do an at home test here in a bit to see if I have it as well. I'm sure we do......got me some fresh antibodies :metal
I don't remember, did your sons catch it the first time Gary?
Yep RJ.....we all tested positive last December 18th and had it over Christmas. I will say this though....having been vaccinated my symptoms this time around were pretty tame. First signs were Monday with a dry cough.....worst being yesterday with some body aches and a fever. But today....outside of coughing every now and then I feel fine. That goes for everyone. We all seemed to have had the 'worst' of it yesterday.
Bummer part is the boys were set to be vaccinated today but instead it turned into being tested and finding out they're positive. The Dr. told me and the wife that there's really no point for us to get tested given the similarity in symptoms....timeframe and the fact that the rest of our family who came in contact with my sister in law have tested positive....that we're most certainly positive as well. So, we're unofficially covid positive.
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Just called my folks to fill them in on our situation and my Dad says, “if you go looking for trouble you’ll find it.”
For the first time in my life (I’m 49), I went completely off on my Dad.
I was shaking the whole time, dropping f-bomb after f-bomb and he just shook it off like I was the conspiracy theorist. My Mom told to shut up, which was nice, but his lackadaisical attitude to the the whole situation just put me over the top. Instead of thanking us for being proactive for testing ourselves before we met for Christmas, he’d rather scoff at us for “looking for trouble”.
That's maddening man. I'm so sorry.
Our kiddos just tested positive....gonna do an at home test here in a bit to see if I have it as well. I'm sure we do......got me some fresh antibodies :metal
I don't remember, did your sons catch it the first time Gary?
Yep RJ.....we all tested positive last December 18th and had it over Christmas. I will say this though....having been vaccinated my symptoms this time around were pretty tame. First signs were Monday with a dry cough.....worst being yesterday with some body aches and a fever. But today....outside of coughing every now and then I feel fine. That goes for everyone. We all seemed to have had the 'worst' of it yesterday.
Bummer part is the boys were set to be vaccinated today but instead it turned into being tested and finding out they're positive. The Dr. told me and the wife that there's really no point for us to get tested given the similarity in symptoms....timeframe and the fact that the rest of our family who came in contact with my sister in law have tested positive....that we're most certainly positive as well. So, we're unofficially covid positive.
Glad you and your family are feeling better today Gary.
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Having been on the road trucking for the last 2 weeks it has been interesting to see the different states and cities I've been in and how pervasive mask use has been. Haven't had any opportunities to get tested but oof. Having to literally only use public restrooms has had me curious about my health. Knock on wood I won't get it or already don't have it but being that I'm quite healthy I'm not too worried if I DO get it.
But, I was supposed to go to Sweden this year and they just upped their travel restrictions and such. Shark farts.
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Life has been Covid free for us here. We saw my sister's family and parents on Christmas, and played with the neighbor kids out in the snow. Otherwise just doing our normal thing. Mom and kids are home for winter break, and my interactions at my job are minimal. Have actually been at home all week due to snow. My wife is still concerned we could get it and often goes the extra mile, such as wanting us to wear masks when we go from the car to the grocery store. We have a <5 year old who cannot get vaxxed, so that is a concern of course, as is the possibility that her preschool could shut down for a period should they deem appropriate.
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I've only had one person in my close family that has tested positive - my sister in law came down with covid last summer. I overheard her telling another family member on Christmas Eve that she swears she got covid "from her dentist's office, since they were putting instruments in her mouth." :facepalm:
No, the fact that you went out with your boyfriend and partied every night in crowded bars when you were in the Wisconsin Dells wasn't a factor, was it? Sterilized dental instruments and a hygienist in head-to-toe PPE, including a mask and face shield must have done it to you.
Overall, my family (me, wife, kids, parents, in-laws, siblings) has managed to stay covid-free, including the ones that live in WI and are big anti-vaxxers. I'm sure we'll all get it eventually, and I'm almost looking forward to it in a way because I feel like I'm always on edge when we get a big wave, not knowing if we'll end up catching it or not. It would be nice to get it, have it run through the house and then know that we're all good for at least 90 days. Having one kid that's too young to be vaccinated is driving me crazy.
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Our kiddos just tested positive....gonna do an at home test here in a bit to see if I have it as well. I'm sure we do......got me some fresh antibodies :metal
I don't remember, did your sons catch it the first time Gary?
Yep RJ.....we all tested positive last December 18th and had it over Christmas. I will say this though....having been vaccinated my symptoms this time around were pretty tame. First signs were Monday with a dry cough.....worst being yesterday with some body aches and a fever. But today....outside of coughing every now and then I feel fine. That goes for everyone. We all seemed to have had the 'worst' of it yesterday.
Bummer part is the boys were set to be vaccinated today but instead it turned into being tested and finding out they're positive. The Dr. told me and the wife that there's really no point for us to get tested given the similarity in symptoms....timeframe and the fact that the rest of our family who came in contact with my sister in law have tested positive....that we're most certainly positive as well. So, we're unofficially covid positive.
Let's hope this doesn't become a holiday tradition for you all. Feel better bud.
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Just took at-home tests before heading to my folks for Christmas and our 14 year old came up positive.
Merry Christmas.
Both my wife and I have been boosted and the kid has his two shots as well, so we hope everything is mild.
Been four days, the kid basically had symptoms associated with a mild cold and is now close to symptom free but now my wife has the same symptoms while I feel headachy. We all got officially tested yesterday and are awaiting the results.
How exciting.
Kid is still positive, me and the wife are negative though my wife appears to have worse symptoms currently than our son did.
I don’t even know anymore.
It may have left her upper respiratory tract at that point and come a bit further down where the test can't catch it!
Sorry to hear about your dad being a jerk, bleh. Also sorry Gary has to do this for the second Christmas in a row.
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Blew our daily record out of the water. 46K new cases. I'm guessing the true number is triple because everyone who thinks they have a cold probably has it.
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Blew our daily record out of the water. 46K new cases. I'm guessing the true number is triple because everyone who thinks they have a cold probably has it.
That's the prevailing thought by the medical community here - the real case count is 3-4x the official results - assumptions of having it, asymptomatic, can't get a test scheduled, longer delay in test results, + at home tests being the reasons. New records are being broken everywhere.
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NY's previous record was 22K from January, over the past 2 weeks we've been having "record" numbers almost every day. We are up to 67K now.
Anyways, got my booster yesterday, other than a sore arm and feeling a bit light headed, I'm feeling alright. Hope the side effects don't get worse.
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Dumb question but are the numbers supposed to be new cases for just that day or an updated cumulative total?
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Dumb question but are the numbers supposed to be new cases for just that day or an updated cumulative total?
Daily/new
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Blew our daily record out of the water. 46K new cases. I'm guessing the true number is triple because everyone who thinks they have a cold probably has it.
That's the prevailing thought by the medical community here - the real case count is 3-4x the official results - assumptions of having it, asymptomatic, can't get a test scheduled, longer delay in test results, + at home tests being the reasons. New records are being broken everywhere.
During the 'initial' covid wave or whatever our household made it all the way to december then caught it and I only knew a handful of people who'd had it. As I sit today....and I just counted this number.....between co-workers and family I know 27 people who've come down with it over the past week...week and a half.
Scary thing is that had my sister in law not tested positive I don't even know if we'd have tested or thought we had it. Very light symptoms. Outside of a low fever two nights ago where I also had some small body chills and aches.....lasted maybe two hours.....what I've experienced could have easily been dismissed as a cold. Some dry coughing and head congestion. That's it. I wonder how many folks experienced the same but didn't quarantine and exposed people?
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Scary thing is that had my sister in law not tested positive I don't even know if we'd have tested or thought we had it. Very light symptoms. Outside of a low fever two nights ago where I also had some small body chills and aches.....lasted maybe two hours.....what I've experienced could have easily been dismissed as a cold. Some dry coughing and head congestion. That's it. I wonder how many folks experienced the same but didn't quarantine and exposed people?
But isn't that actually the opposite of scary? I mean, the fact that the symptoms were so mild that you wouldn't have even bothered testing.
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Scary thing is that had my sister in law not tested positive I don't even know if we'd have tested or thought we had it. Very light symptoms. Outside of a low fever two nights ago where I also had some small body chills and aches.....lasted maybe two hours.....what I've experienced could have easily been dismissed as a cold. Some dry coughing and head congestion. That's it. I wonder how many folks experienced the same but didn't quarantine and exposed people?
But isn't that actually the opposite of scary? I mean, the fact that the symptoms were so mild that you wouldn't have even bothered testing.
True. I guess I was meaning more that I would have just went along and probably infected dozens of people. Personally, I think that the push by the powers that be now should be you get your Corona vaccine with your Flu shot every fall and that's that. We all go about our lives as 'normal'. This thing isn't going to vanish but ones things clear, being vaccinated significantly diminishes the effects of Covid.
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Scary thing is that had my sister in law not tested positive I don't even know if we'd have tested or thought we had it. Very light symptoms. Outside of a low fever two nights ago where I also had some small body chills and aches.....lasted maybe two hours.....what I've experienced could have easily been dismissed as a cold. Some dry coughing and head congestion. That's it. I wonder how many folks experienced the same but didn't quarantine and exposed people?
But isn't that actually the opposite of scary? I mean, the fact that the symptoms were so mild that you wouldn't have even bothered testing.
Isn't that the goal?
What is the outcome anyways?
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Side note: while my symptoms to this point have been pretty mild....I'm experiencing quite a bit of dizziness today. It's odd. I'm drinking a ton of water so I don't think I'm dehydrated.....just am having some bouts of dizziness. I don't recall that being a major symptom or side effect....but I got it.
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Scary thing is that had my sister in law not tested positive I don't even know if we'd have tested or thought we had it. Very light symptoms. Outside of a low fever two nights ago where I also had some small body chills and aches.....lasted maybe two hours.....what I've experienced could have easily been dismissed as a cold. Some dry coughing and head congestion. That's it. I wonder how many folks experienced the same but didn't quarantine and exposed people?
But isn't that actually the opposite of scary? I mean, the fact that the symptoms were so mild that you wouldn't have even bothered testing.
Yeah, I hear this. And this is why I'm not testing unless I absolutely have to. I'm triple vaccinated. If I'm sick I'll stay home until I'm not sick anymore. If I'm not sick, I'm just going about my life. Unless the Government wants to guarantee everyone's unlimited paid sick time for each 10 day isolation period. Because otherwise I frankly cannot afford it.
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Hospitalizations in Ontario went up 47% in one day (491 people to 726 = 235 people hospitalized in one day); cases went up from 10,400-ish to 13,800-ish ... 32% increase). But don't worry, it's jut mild symptoms, everyone... and this shouldn't be scary or alarming at all. ::)
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Scary thing is that had my sister in law not tested positive I don't even know if we'd have tested or thought we had it. Very light symptoms. Outside of a low fever two nights ago where I also had some small body chills and aches.....lasted maybe two hours.....what I've experienced could have easily been dismissed as a cold. Some dry coughing and head congestion. That's it. I wonder how many folks experienced the same but didn't quarantine and exposed people?
But isn't that actually the opposite of scary? I mean, the fact that the symptoms were so mild that you wouldn't have even bothered testing.
Isn't that the goal?
What is the outcome anyways?
Yes... this is the goal for most aside from some who still seem to be under the impression that there is some kind of 0 Covid scenario on the table (see above).
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Scary thing is that had my sister in law not tested positive I don't even know if we'd have tested or thought we had it. Very light symptoms. Outside of a low fever two nights ago where I also had some small body chills and aches.....lasted maybe two hours.....what I've experienced could have easily been dismissed as a cold. Some dry coughing and head congestion. That's it. I wonder how many folks experienced the same but didn't quarantine and exposed people?
But isn't that actually the opposite of scary? I mean, the fact that the symptoms were so mild that you wouldn't have even bothered testing.
Isn't that the goal?
What is the outcome anyways?
Yes... this is the goal for most aside from some who still seem to be under the impression that there is some kind of 0 Covid scenario on the table (see above).
Is it the goal of the authorities in charge of all these mandates and lockdowns?
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I think that, as with all things, assuming there is one single unifying goal of "the authorities" is missing the mark.
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I think that, as with all things, assuming there is one single unifying goal of "the authorities" is missing the mark.
Oh I know that all too well. And that's the answer then, there is no One Unified goal to handling this virus.
And to me, it has to do with the idea that Human Beings are our own individual with a unique mindset. The idea that Human Beings are a conscious spirit that becomes the identity of the design that is presented on this Earth.
NO OTHER has control over that besides YOU. In the end, whatever one believes lies only with YOU and the other higher belief. Just because YOU don't believe or think certain thoughts DOES NOT mean the other DOESN'T.
That is the issue with doing what is supposedly right, and doing what is supposedly wrong. The issue is that Two people can think and believe two totally opposing things.
For me, it's like we're being pulled to go either this or that way with a disregard that there is a middle path we can use, even if it is weedy and full of snakes lurking in the tall grass.
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Is it the goal of the authorities in charge of all these mandates and lockdowns?
Building on what Bosk says, at least in the US, there are all different states with different prerogatives for how they are handling things. Some states have more people who want their governments to "DO SOMETHING!" and so they fight to keep certain mandates in place regardless of whether they are really doing anything at this point. Other states have the opposite. But I think overall, lockdowns and mandates are not being used to great effect in the US. Just turn on the tube for Sunday Football and you'll see bleachers filled from sea to shining sea. So as per usual, our politicians already agree on most of the big thing ("there will be no lockdowns; we have to learn to live with it; encourage vaccines") and are chiseling away at the most divisive inconsequential wedge issues they can find, like masking and protocols.
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Welp, I finally joined the covid party. I managed to dodge the previous variants but omicron got me. I spent two days in bed with a high fever and now I'm feeling much better. Cases have been surging here in Argentina and I'm not surprised one bit. People stopped caring about wearing masks ans distancing and these are the results. I honestly don't know how we get out of this. This virus spreads like wildfire and does not seem to stop mutating. Unless we take pretty drastic measures, this thing will be with us for long.
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Where I am in the world we've had it as good as anywhere if not better. State borders opened and now cases surging. Have 2 staff members been confirmed cases this morning...........awesome.
One went to a music festival where there were no real restrictions in place and caught it from there, as have many others.
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-implements-popcorn-ban-for-movie-theaters-amid-record-covid-surge/ar-AASi4Ma?li=BBnb7Kz
Lol France.
C'mon in and sit with a hundred other people and watch a movie....but for your safety..NO POPCORN!
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Wife says she can’t really taste anything while eating dinner tonight. Meanwhile I still am not having any symptoms.
Did find out our neighbor (J&J no booster) has it. He’s in his mid 60’s, smoker, bad heart and has half heartedly been taking things seriously. Their daughter has had it twice, isn’t vaccinated, his step son had it recently and isn’t vaccinated, and his wife (J&J no booster) has COPD and is on oxygen. To say I’m concerned about their situation is an understatement.
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Wife says she can’t really taste anything while eating dinner tonight. Meanwhile I still am not having any symptoms.
Did find out our neighbor (J&J no booster) has it. He’s in his mid 60’s, smoker, bad heart and has half heartedly been taking things seriously. Their daughter has had it twice, isn’t vaccinated, his step son had it recently and isn’t vaccinated, and his wife (J&J no booster) has COPD and is on oxygen. To say I’m concerned about their situation is an understatement.
Sorry to hear about your wife. That symptom sucks so bad.
As for your neighbours, you are right to be concerned, but ultimately it is their choice to get vaccinated or not, as much as I hate to say that. I would avoid being near them though.
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Wife says she can’t really taste anything while eating dinner tonight. Meanwhile I still am not having any symptoms.
Did find out our neighbor (J&J no booster) has it. He’s in his mid 60’s, smoker, bad heart and has half heartedly been taking things seriously. Their daughter has had it twice, isn’t vaccinated, his step son had it recently and isn’t vaccinated, and his wife (J&J no booster) has COPD and is on oxygen. To say I’m concerned about their situation is an understatement.
You have to make a decision for you and your family. He has his problems so I think you know the answer.
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Hospitalizations in Ontario went up 47% in one day (491 people to 726 = 235 people hospitalized in one day); cases went up from 10,400-ish to 13,800-ish ... 32% increase). But don't worry, it's jut mild symptoms, everyone... and this shouldn't be scary or alarming at all. ::)
There's actually legit data now that omicron is 40-60% less severe than delta in terms of symptoms, but this just shows that mere volume can be enough to cause trouble with this. Less severe symptoms should also mean hospitalizations will be shorter on average.
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-implements-popcorn-ban-for-movie-theaters-amid-record-covid-surge/ar-AASi4Ma?li=BBnb7Kz
Lol France.
C'mon in and sit with a hundred other people and watch a movie....but for your safety..NO POPCORN!
How does eating food increase the risk of transmission?
If anything, choking on the kernals would be far more riskier!
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Where I am in the world we've had it as good as anywhere if not better. State borders opened and now cases surging. Have 2 staff members been confirmed cases this morning...........awesome.
One went to a music festival where there were no real restrictions in place and caught it from there, as have many others.
Now, 3 staff members.
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-implements-popcorn-ban-for-movie-theaters-amid-record-covid-surge/ar-AASi4Ma?li=BBnb7Kz
Lol France.
C'mon in and sit with a hundred other people and watch a movie....but for your safety..NO POPCORN!
Well, you can lol Canada then too, as entertainment venues are not permitted to sell food or drink - but you can buy it for take-out! @ Kade, just removing masks to eat/drink will spread this. jingle.son and I saw Matrix earlier this week (there were about a dozen people in a 450 seat theatre). The staff monitored the theatre, and at one point did actually ask someone to put their mask back on. Omicron is an airborne virus, whereas the original strains were believed to have to travel on breath droplets. I believe that's part of the reason is spreads so much - it simply lingers in the air ... and cloth masks do jack-shit.
Also, Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment (owner of the Leafs and Raptors) are not permitting any ticket-holders in the arena. New limitation is for 1000 people, so they'll be only permitting invited guests of the teams.
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I assume the logic behind the popcorn ban is so you keep the mask on throughout the film.
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I'm reading reports of people getting it from obvious sick people who are coughing and/or sneezing in public. Some people take off their mask to cough or sneeze. What's "a little cough" or "sniffles" to one person can KILL SOMEONE ELSE. STAY HOME if you have ANY symptoms!!! >:(
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I'm reading reports of people getting it from obvious sick people who are coughing and/or sneezing in public. Some people take off their mask to cough or sneeze. What's "a little cough" or "sniffles" to one person can KILL SOMEONE ELSE. STAY HOME if you have ANY symptoms!!! >:(
People were doing that before. And if it doesn't hinder there day to day activities, people will continue to leave the home, even with a little cough or sniffle. There's not much you can do about that. You'd have to make people change a behavior that they don't see as hindering their daily life to live and get things done.
Also, some people can not afford to just stay home when sick. Priorities take over as they might need food, need something around the house that they need to go to the store to buy, like baby essentials. Also, people need to make money and most people can't even afford to miss work, or else that pushes back their bills and financial situations.
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Along those same lines I will say the one "good" thing about this is that prior to the start of it all our HR department was not allowed to send people home even if they came in visibly sick and admitted they were sick but they've since switched their tone and rules. I had asked a manager one time what the deal was and she didn't get a straight answer from HR but it was something along the lines of potential discrimination or however they felt like covering their ass. I had a fellow co-worker, a very obvious sick time abuser who used his sick time for sporadic extra personal days, interact with me when he admitted he was sick and when I told him he should go home he laughed and told me he didn't have any sick time. Sure enough I myself got sick over the next couple of days and it was over the start of a Christmas break which annoyed me.
Cut to now my office mandates are a bit too intense and I was just informed that we need to operate at a 50% capacity "until further notice" since we're in NY state. Nothing I can do about it but the mandates now are way worse than the ones last year during the much more potent strain of the virus.
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So the situation is you could either let that side take a bigger hit, which does effect everyone on this planet. Or, try and balance it to where it can still be stable enough to not cause a massive struggle on the entire construct of the system humans currently live by.
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Pretty sure I have covid. My brother and his gf tested positive a few days after Christmas, after I was at their place. I woke up yesterday with a sore throat and by the evening had a low grade fever. Seems exactly the same symptoms as they had. Fairly mild overall, like a light flu. I can't find a test ANYWHERE though to confirm the suspicions. The state (NJ) will send you a free at home test so I ordered one, but it won't be here until Tuesday and then takes a few days to get the results. My doctor friend said he could give me a PCR test tomorrow but it will take 5 or so days to get results. Every store in the area is out of at home tests. I did actually buy a few online last week but they won't be here until Thursday the earliest. Oh well, I am going to assume I have covid and just lay low for the 5 days recommended by the CDC (assuming my symptoms go away, they are actually already slightly better today so I think this will pass quick).
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Pretty sure I have covid. My brother and his gf tested positive a few days after Christmas, after I was at their place. I woke up yesterday with a sore throat and by the evening had a low grade fever. Seems exactly the same symptoms as they had. Fairly mild overall, like a light flu. I can't find a test ANYWHERE though to confirm the suspicions. The state (NJ) will send you a free at home test so I ordered one, but it won't be here until Tuesday and then takes a few days to get the results. My doctor friend said he could give me a PCR test tomorrow but it will take 5 or so days to get results. Every store in the area is out of at home tests. I did actually buy a few online last week but they won't be here until Thursday the earliest. Oh well, I am going to assume I have covid and just lay low for the 5 days recommended by the CDC (assuming my symptoms go away, they are actually already slightly better today so I think this will pass quick).
Sounds like you got it. I'm glad you're not panicking about not getting a test. Seems there's way too much of that. People should just do what they always do when they get sick. Stay home and lay low.
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Pretty sure I have covid. My brother and his gf tested positive a few days after Christmas, after I was at their place. I woke up yesterday with a sore throat and by the evening had a low grade fever. Seems exactly the same symptoms as they had. Fairly mild overall, like a light flu. I can't find a test ANYWHERE though to confirm the suspicions. The state (NJ) will send you a free at home test so I ordered one, but it won't be here until Tuesday and then takes a few days to get the results. My doctor friend said he could give me a PCR test tomorrow but it will take 5 or so days to get results. Every store in the area is out of at home tests. I did actually buy a few online last week but they won't be here until Thursday the earliest. Oh well, I am going to assume I have covid and just lay low for the 5 days recommended by the CDC (assuming my symptoms go away, they are actually already slightly better today so I think this will pass quick).
You'll receive your test results to see if you are positive with Covid after the end time the CDC recommends a person to quarantine?
???
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Pretty sure I have covid. My brother and his gf tested positive a few days after Christmas, after I was at their place. I woke up yesterday with a sore throat and by the evening had a low grade fever. Seems exactly the same symptoms as they had. Fairly mild overall, like a light flu. I can't find a test ANYWHERE though to confirm the suspicions. The state (NJ) will send you a free at home test so I ordered one, but it won't be here until Tuesday and then takes a few days to get the results. My doctor friend said he could give me a PCR test tomorrow but it will take 5 or so days to get results. Every store in the area is out of at home tests. I did actually buy a few online last week but they won't be here until Thursday the earliest. Oh well, I am going to assume I have covid and just lay low for the 5 days recommended by the CDC (assuming my symptoms go away, they are actually already slightly better today so I think this will pass quick).
Sounds like you got it. I'm glad you're not panicking about not getting a test. Seems there's way too much of that. People should just do what they always do when they get sick. Stay home and lay low.
It's a bit easier to not panic when you live alone and my work seems OK with me being out a few days or so without providing the results, but then again I have a fever so I'm definitely sick and wouldn't be coming in regardless. My mom was panicking for me to get a test, mostly because my sister is going to Florida tomorrow and she was at my brothers too, but if shes not sick then I think she's fine (and she had covid before so maybe that prevented her from catching it this time). My gf who was with us as well so far isn't sick either.
You'll receive your test results to see if you are positive with Covid after the end time the CDC recommends a person to quarantine?
???
Basically, NJ is peaking in cases and availability is just too low so that's what it's looking like.
Luckily for me, the CDC now says 5 days and if no longer showing symptoms you don't need to quarantine. I'm going by that guidance.
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Pretty sure I have covid. My brother and his gf tested positive a few days after Christmas, after I was at their place. I woke up yesterday with a sore throat and by the evening had a low grade fever. Seems exactly the same symptoms as they had. Fairly mild overall, like a light flu. I can't find a test ANYWHERE though to confirm the suspicions. The state (NJ) will send you a free at home test so I ordered one, but it won't be here until Tuesday and then takes a few days to get the results. My doctor friend said he could give me a PCR test tomorrow but it will take 5 or so days to get results. Every store in the area is out of at home tests. I did actually buy a few online last week but they won't be here until Thursday the earliest. Oh well, I am going to assume I have covid and just lay low for the 5 days recommended by the CDC (assuming my symptoms go away, they are actually already slightly better today so I think this will pass quick).
Sounds like you got it. I'm glad you're not panicking about not getting a test. Seems there's way too much of that. People should just do what they always do when they get sick. Stay home and lay low.
But people do not do that when they have symptoms that could be a common cold. Some people can't afford to miss a single day of work, what makes one think they'll stay home if they have these symptoms and can't get a test in time to see if they are in fact Covid positive. Especially if it takes longer for the test results than the CDC recommends one should isolate.
People will assume they have a common cold and will go out and about with their lives.
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If people are smart, they're squirreling a few sick/vacation days in case. When I got the flu before, it always took me a few days to get better.
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If people are smart, they're squirreling a few sick/vacation days in case. When I got the flu before, it always took me a few days to get better.
From wikipedia: The United States federal government does not currently require that employees have access to paid sick leave to address their own short-term illnesses or the short-term illness of a family member. However, a number of states and localities do require some or all employers to provide paid sick leave to their workers.
From wikipedia, the same map (the gray states are the ones with no sick leave laws):
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Paid_sick_leave_laws_in_the_United_States.svg/800px-Paid_sick_leave_laws_in_the_United_States.svg.png)
And sure, many people work for companies that give them paid personal time... maybe 5-10 days, maybe a few more. That might be the length of one isolation period for being a close contact, right?
By the way, the jobs that aren't so great don't have as good benefits... and who works those jobs? The service workers, retailers, grocers, restaurant workers and staff, "dashers", etc.... in other words, the people we're all expecting to be there exactly as before to do our bidding while we isolate.
Not trying to pontificate, but I can see why it's completely untenable. The US government, even with the democrats holding power, have decided that they won't be doing anything about paid family sick leave. So, what are people supposed to do? They're already leaving the workforce in droves, which is why places are so short staffed as it is.
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Our company does not have sick day. I am the manager of a site. I've been leanainte towards call outs and allow employees to use pto is they choose so.
Some companies pay employees for time off for their employees is they are a large company. Ours falls slightly short of that.
It sucks but employees just need to be smart these days if they worry about pay
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Pretty sure I have covid. My brother and his gf tested positive a few days after Christmas, after I was at their place. I woke up yesterday with a sore throat and by the evening had a low grade fever. Seems exactly the same symptoms as they had. Fairly mild overall, like a light flu. I can't find a test ANYWHERE though to confirm the suspicions. The state (NJ) will send you a free at home test so I ordered one, but it won't be here until Tuesday and then takes a few days to get the results. My doctor friend said he could give me a PCR test tomorrow but it will take 5 or so days to get results. Every store in the area is out of at home tests. I did actually buy a few online last week but they won't be here until Thursday the earliest. Oh well, I am going to assume I have covid and just lay low for the 5 days recommended by the CDC (assuming my symptoms go away, they are actually already slightly better today so I think this will pass quick).
Brother, thinking about you and hoping you have a speedy recovery.
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Damn Marc. Hoping for the best.
My sister has Covid for the second time. She had it last fall, got fully vaxxed, and now has it again. She got it from her vaxxed BF.
I was away for the holiday with my GF. We got a cabin in PA for the week of Christmas. My Aunt and Uncle hosted, and there were a bunch of people there. Huge outbreak despite the majority being vaccinated. My parents didn't want to go because that was their fear. So it looks like they dogged a bullet. Seems like even the ones who were vaxxed are taking it on the chin pretty hard, but no hospitalizations yet, which is good. My mom works at the library in town, and they've been closed off and on for a few weeks now. There are only 5 employees there, and people keep testing positive. It's crazy.
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Hoping for the best for you and your family, too, Brian.
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I think like 3-4 times in the past month I was positive I had COVID yet tested negative every time.
I feel like an 80's rock star putting stuff in my nose so often.
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Damn Marc. Hoping for the best.
My sister has Covid for the second time. She had it last fall, got fully vaxxed, and now has it again. She got it from her vaxxed BF.
I was away for the holiday with my GF. We got a cabin in PA for the week of Christmas. My Aunt and Uncle hosted, and there were a bunch of people there. Huge outbreak despite the majority being vaccinated. My parents didn't want to go because that was their fear. So it looks like they dogged a bullet. Seems like even the ones who were vaxxed are taking it on the chin pretty hard, but no hospitalizations yet, which is good. My mom works at the library in town, and they've been closed off and on for a few weeks now. There are only 5 employees there, and people keep testing positive. It's crazy.
Me and my wife both got it even though we got the most recent shot in October. It seems that the reports that Omicron doesn't give a shit if you are vaccinated or not are holding true. This damned virus keeps mutating and dodging our efforts to end the pandemic. I think we all need to go back to being more careful, using masks and trying not to be crowded so much.
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Damn Marc. Hoping for the best.
My sister has Covid for the second time. She had it last fall, got fully vaxxed, and now has it again. She got it from her vaxxed BF.
I was away for the holiday with my GF. We got a cabin in PA for the week of Christmas. My Aunt and Uncle hosted, and there were a bunch of people there. Huge outbreak despite the majority being vaccinated. My parents didn't want to go because that was their fear. So it looks like they dogged a bullet. Seems like even the ones who were vaxxed are taking it on the chin pretty hard, but no hospitalizations yet, which is good. My mom works at the library in town, and they've been closed off and on for a few weeks now. There are only 5 employees there, and people keep testing positive. It's crazy.
Me and my wife both got it even though we got the most recent shot in October. It seems that the reports that Omicron doesn't give a shit if you are vaccinated or not are holding true. This damned virus keeps mutating and dodging our efforts to end the pandemic. I think we all need to go back to being more careful, using masks and trying not to be crowded so much.
^This. Current status in Ontario:
Hosiptalized/ICU:
Unvax'd - 236/89
Vax'c - 578/54
Proportionately, it's hitting more unvax'd; but on the whole, vax'd are filling up the hospitals. And the more the hospitals fill, the more healtcare workers will be exposed and have to isolate - another cascading consequence... a shortage of ambulances on the road last night here in Ontario due to a combination of THOSE workers out with COVID, and having to stay with patients that can't be admitted into a hospital (due to staff shortages, and high demand). This is going to be a very rough few months until this spike reaches its peak.
Don't mean to sound hysterical - just pointing out the facts.
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Now this is fascinating...
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/03/health/covid-weight-loss-wellness/index.html
People with obesity are 46% more at risk of getting Covid-19, according to a study from August. It found that they are also more at risk of getting really sick, facing a 113% higher chance of being hospitalized, a 74% higher risk of needing to be treated in the ICU and -- perhaps most troubling of all -- a 48% increased risk of death.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/obr.13128
Being an individual with obesity is associated with numerous underlying risk factors for COVID-19, including hypertension, dyslipidaemia, type 2 diabetes (T2D) and chronic kidney or liver disease. Coronaviruses are typically not associated with severe disease and were mostly thought to cause only mild respiratory infections until the emergence of the 2002 severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV) in Guangdong, China. The SARS-CoV outbreak was ultimately contained thanks to its low viral load within the beginning stages of symptom onset, allowing time for identification and isolation of infected individuals.107 The 2009 influenza pandemic, caused by an outbreak of the upper respiratory influenza A H1N1 virus, identified individuals with obesity as an independent risk factor for severe influenza morbidity and mortality.10 Subsequently, emergence of the Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV) in 2012 exhibited high prevalence among individuals with obesity.108 The growing evidence detailed above demonstrates that obesity increases the risks of hospitalization, severity and in some cases death with viral respiratory infections, increasing the likelihood that obesity may also independently increase the risk for COVID-19, another respiratory viral disease. Several reports summarize the current understanding of the pathogenicity and immune response to SARS-CoV-2 based on available data from animal and human studies.109, 110 Importantly, the mechanism(s) responsible for greater COVID-19 severity in individuals with obesity remains unknown. However, insights from other viral infections, like influenza, and epidemiological evidence offer some understanding of how being an individual with obesity increases the risk of COVID-19 severity (Figure 8). Considering the exponential rise in the prevalence of individuals with obesity, understanding how being an individual with obesity increases the risk for severe COVID-19 is critical to ensure appropriate interventional and prophylactic therapies against this novel coronavirus.
COVID-19 has led not only to increased unemployment and income insecurity but to many changes in food supplies. Many aspects of food supply chains have been disrupted, and components of the food system focused on restaurants and hotels have lost their demand and are experiencing difficulty redirecting toward home consumption. Other key aspects of food chains, especially in low- and middle-income countries have been completely disrupted with impacts varying by country and region. There is an expectation of a significant rise in stunting and adult thinness is expected, especially in South Asia, a few select other SE Asian countries (e.g., Indonesia) and much of sub-Saharan Africa along with pockets of the poor in all other low- and middle-income countries.174 The impact on not only malnutrition but increased food insecurity for the large proportion of lower income families is expected to be significant.174
One might suspect we would see a decline in obesity if the food insecurity impacts the individuals with overweight and obesity in many low- and middle-income countries. This truly depends on how serious is the food insecurity and loss of income and how are diets shifted, if at all. We will see diet shifts in not only how we eat and drink but also how we move if inactivity grows greatly. If the diets shifts to increased consumption of refined carbohydrates, fried food and other unhealthy aspects of the traditional diet or to increased highly or ultraprocessed food we may experience increases in the prevalence of individuals with obesity. One can speculate but we truly do not know. Surveys on this topic are not published to date. Similarly studies in higher income countries suggest weight gains or no shift in weight.175 At the same time, some studies from higher income countries suggest potential increases in obesity.175, 176
While we do not have data on sales of ultraprocessed foods and beverages, many reports both from organizations monitoring food purchases and global company reports suggest that in higher and middle-income countries access to fresh foods, especially fruits and vegetables is impacted due to breakdowns in local supply chains, and the demand for packaged processed food has increased, especially in the ready-to-eat and -drink categories.8, 177 These foods tend to be ultraprocessed and high in energy density, saturated fat, sodium and sugar. The attraction is partially that these foods require less storage and are highly palatable. In addition, they are relatively inexpensive due to the large economies of scale in their production. Particularly where costs loom greatly in food-purchasing decisions, as among the lower income segments of the population, these cheaper products may be consumed in much greater quantities. However, ultraprocessed foods are a major contributor to obesity and other non-communicable diseases (NCDs). The literature linking ultraprocessed foods with adverse health outcomes is large and consistent.178-195
Additionally, the lockdown and fear of contact with the virus will likely have reduced walking and other movements among all age groups while enhancing sedentary living, TV and computer and video games. We would expect significant declines in energy expenditures from this combination of reduced movement and increased sedentary behaviours. Concurrently, the rapid increase in consumption of ultraprocessed foods and reduced energy expenditures in almost all low-, middle- and high-income countries are expected to heighten the risks of overweight, obesity and other NCDs.196
This paper highlights another concern—that is, vaccines may not be as effective in individuals with overweight/obesity. Given the large prevalence of the world population that is composed of individuals with overweight/obesity, it is imperative that governments ensure that testing and research focus not only on the general efficacy of vaccines and therapeutics but also on how they will impact individuals with obesity.
These studies are proving what I have been saying and will continue to say....Since we humans have begun living in this lifestyle of urbanization (city life) due to the mass production of products and these factories needing workers to produce these products, hence the localization of workers close to these factories, and also mines, we are witnessing the consequences and outcomes of the choice to live this lifestyle. It's proving to be detrimental rather than beneficial for the overall health of humans. As I said as well, we would've been fine from this virus and many other viruses if not for the expansion of this mindset of Industrialization and Consumerism that spread across the world from Europe. This domination led us humans to be forced to live under this detrimental lifestyle and it will continue to get worse, unless we humans realize and analyze the benefits and detriments of living under this current system.
It's not easy, it's not simple, it can't be done simply fast (like how our world wants and demands everything to be instant) and it will take a lot of work and dedication from every human being on this planet.
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Well, one of the unexpected symptoms of Covid, at least for me and my wife, is less appetite. So I guess covid is helping us in a way? :lol
On a more serious note, I agree with you that we as a race need to change our way of life, and I think covid is actually helping us. Through the past two years lots of people have started moving away from cities since some employers are letting people work remotely. I honestly hope that this trend continues and we get less crowded cities and more living space for each person. There needs to be a massive investment in infrastructure for this happen, but I think we are going that route.
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Damn Marc. Hoping for the best.
My sister has Covid for the second time. She had it last fall, got fully vaxxed, and now has it again. She got it from her vaxxed BF.
I was away for the holiday with my GF. We got a cabin in PA for the week of Christmas. My Aunt and Uncle hosted, and there were a bunch of people there. Huge outbreak despite the majority being vaccinated. My parents didn't want to go because that was their fear. So it looks like they dogged a bullet. Seems like even the ones who were vaxxed are taking it on the chin pretty hard, but no hospitalizations yet, which is good. My mom works at the library in town, and they've been closed off and on for a few weeks now. There are only 5 employees there, and people keep testing positive. It's crazy.
Me and my wife both got it even though we got the most recent shot in October. It seems that the reports that Omicron doesn't give a shit if you are vaccinated or not are holding true. This damned virus keeps mutating and dodging our efforts to end the pandemic. I think we all need to go back to being more careful, using masks and trying not to be crowded so much.
^This. Current status in Ontario:
Hosiptalized/ICU:
Unvax'd - 236/89
Vax'c - 578/54
Proportionately, it's hitting more unvax'd; but on the whole, vax'd are filling up the hospitals. And the more the hospitals fill, the more healtcare workers will be exposed and have to isolate - another cascading consequence... a shortage of ambulances on the road last night here in Ontario due to a combination of THOSE workers out with COVID, and having to stay with patients that can't be admitted into a hospital (due to staff shortages, and high demand). This is going to be a very rough few months until this spike reaches its peak.
Don't mean to sound hysterical - just pointing out the facts.
I was listening to a report this morning, and they were talking about the numbers from the UK, and how even though the initial spike was violently quick, it also peaked very quickly, and based on this modeling, the NA peak could be as soon as later this month.
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I was listening to a report this morning, and they were talking about the numbers from the UK, and how even though the initial spike was violently quick, it also peaked very quickly, and based on this modeling, the NA peak could be as soon as later this month.
That squares with what I'd been hearing regarding South Africa...it spread incredibly quickly, but as a result peaked in like a month and was already on its way back down even before Christmas.
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Hef I hope so.
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Hef I hope so.
Well, I'll see what I can do.
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I was listening to a report this morning, and they were talking about the numbers from the UK, and how even though the initial spike was violently quick, it also peaked very quickly, and based on this modeling, the NA peak could be as soon as later this month.
That squares with what I'd been hearing regarding South Africa...it spread incredibly quickly, but as a result peaked in like a month and was already on its way back down even before Christmas.
Always nice to have my heresay professionally confirmed.
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My daughter tested positive from a test on Saturday. My wife and son are off getting tested now. My wife had a slew of appointments this week and physical therapy, all of which had to be canceled/moved. This is also affecting her return to work post-surgery. She was supposed to get initial clearance tomorrow but now she can't see her surgeon.
My daughter had symptoms on Saturday when she got tested but by Sunday they were gone. None of the rest of us have any symptoms but we are all triple-vaxed. My daughter had not gotten boosted yet and she is 6-8 months or so post her 2nd shot.
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We were exposed to Covid on 12/24 and 12/25......told that person was positive on the 26th. Our whole household exhibited mild symptoms starting on Monday 1/27 with the worst of the symptoms being a stuffy head and a dry cough at it's height. I ran a 100 degree fever on tuesday night for a few hours but it broke on it's own.
I sit here today literally with no symptoms or residual effects. Very fortunate to have had it so mild.....BUT....we all have had it before and my wife and I are vaccinated. The kids were set to get vaccinated but could not due to testing positive last Wednesday but they as well were very mild symptoms.
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Well, one of the unexpected symptoms of Covid, at least for me and my wife, is less appetite. So I guess covid is helping us in a way? :lol
On a more serious note, I agree with you that we as a race need to change our way of life, and I think covid is actually helping us. Through the past two years lots of people have started moving away from cities since some employers are letting people work remotely. I honestly hope that this trend continues and we get less crowded cities and more living space for each person. There needs to be a massive investment in infrastructure for this happen, but I think we are going that route.
It's interesting to think about that and makes you wonder about the industrialization and density of China...I do wonder if there are studies done about the Industrialization, urbanization and density of China's cities playing a role in their peoples overall health.
Over here, a lot of people are starting to get into buying fresh foods locally from the farmers markets. The prevalence of Farmers Markets here shows that change of behavior and mindset of the benefits of eating nutritiously. We have one at the railyards called the Railyards Market that has lots of local farmers, and locally made products. So, we have good nutritious foods being sold, and also there are programs there that are available to help those less fortunate to acquire these nutritious foods.
Again though, we are not a big major city like New York or LA, and we have a big cultural background with both Native and Spanish culture being vital for the community of the cities, towns, and pueblos of our state. We have a lot of farmers in our state, and we notice the expansion of Albuquerque and I do notice the impact it is having on everything in the city, from the development of modernized infrastructure to the congestion of the highways as the people only have 4 bridges to cross the river to get from one side where they work, to the other where they live. Albuquerque can not expand East because of the mountain, North because my rez is there, South because another reservation is there, so the only option is to expand West.
The rural people of our state do not have the same mindsets as the people in the cities, priorities are different and overall behaviors are different as well. This needs to be addressed when dealing with social issues and why there is no one size fits all solution for anything. And why handling the pandemic is a state issue, which the federal government can not handle as there are too many different mindsets. Isn't this the reason for why this country has states to begin with?
Since food prices are increasing, and all mass produced products will be increasing in price as the pandemic effects each of the production factories, we might want to look into being more self-sufficient and start relying on our selves, more so than the mass productions of the factories for certain needs like food.
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My dr friend got me in to get a PCR test today which won't get results for 3-4 days, I feel mostly fine on day 3, just congested and tired at this point. Sadly, my gf started feeling symptoms today and she's experiencing what I was yesterday... the difficulty of getting a test. So luckily for her, it looks like my online order is coming early and I should receive it tomorrow with 2 at home tests she can use.
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Sorry if this has been discussed before but heads up for Covid testing, especially at home. It appears testing for Omicron is more accurate if you include a throat swab with the nasal swab.
https://slate.com/technology/2021/12/throat-swab-rapid-testing-omicron-effective.html
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My county's health department urged against swabbing your own throat. They cautioned that users should follow the instructions for the at-home test closely and not try to get too crazy.
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The office I work for is requiring all employees and contract workers to test negative before returning from the holiday break.
I tested negative :RJ:
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The hospital system I work for has a thing in their My Chart app to report covid close encounters. My wife went to that this morning and did it for both her and my son and in less than an hour our doctor had tests ordered in the system. She drove to the urgent care and said there was orders. They got their tests and left.
We don't even think about at home tests. We can get official orders like it's nothing.
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My county's health department urged against swabbing your own throat. They cautioned that users should follow the instructions for the at-home test closely and not try to get too crazy.
I’ve read and seen the same info in interviews. Hard to discern the truth. This (swabbing with saliva) could be more accurate, or it could be social media dis / misinformation.
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The hospital system I work for has a thing in their My Chart app to report covid close encounters. My wife went to that this morning and did it for both her and my son and in less than an hour our doctor had tests ordered in the system. She drove to the urgent care and said there was orders. They got their tests and left.
We don't even think about at home tests. We can get official orders like it's nothing.
It's so... confusing, honestly. And I consider myself a smart guy, so for those that aren't... well, I don't want to be arrogant, but you know where I'm going with this, it has to be an utter morass of conflicting data.
Here in Connecticut, the state has issued millions of free at-home kits. People are standing (well, they are in their cars) in line for these things like it's a Beatles reunion. The local news station had a local reporter - Tony Terzi (his dad was a legend in the state as well) - at one of these and he reported that in THREE HOURS, he saw the line moved like 50 feet. This is per town, at least the towns that have them, and so is a state-wide phenomenon.
Having said that, I flew last week and upon returning, I walked right in to a testing lab at Bradley airport, there was one person in front of me - check that, a couple in front of me - and I was tested before the luggage on my flight came out. When my daughter flew in in December, she did the same thing, and later, during her trip, I drove her to the airport, she went in and got a test in about 15 minutes. So I wonder if it really IS that hard, or if people are making it harder than it needs to be.
I'm wondering for my area, so if it is markedly different somewhere else and people ARE struggling I apologize in advance.
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So, some of you know I've had to put my folks in assisted living over the last month and a half; mom has Alzheimer's, and my handicapped dad, who was taking care of her (I only add "handicapped" so you can get a full picture) fell in early November and severely broke his femur ("split it like a young sapling" according to the doctor). Mom went immediately to assisted living and dad went to the hospital and then into a month long rehab facility. Now they are together in the assisted living, and despite some hurdles (dad's short term memory is severely compromised; we're not sure if it is age, from the fall, stress or all three) they are, thank God, thriving.
Except I got a call last night that they both have the COVID. 82 and 84, and thankfully both vaccinated and under care, but this is going to be quite the next five days or so. My brother just had it, in November, so we're hoping he's got antibodies, and I tested negative on my return to CT and via a home kit last night, so there's that. The facility is really good, though, and they are on top of it. My parents are quarantined in their unit, and have all their meals and meds brought to them. But we'll see. So far, symptoms seem to be mild, but both are pretty susceptible to the ravages of the virus, so we're going to be on alert.
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Having said that, I flew last week and upon returning, I walked right in to a testing lab at Bradley airport, there was one person in front of me - check that, a couple in front of me - and I was tested before the luggage on my flight came out. When my daughter flew in in December, she did the same thing, and later, during her trip, I drove her to the airport, she went in and got a test in about 15 minutes. So I wonder if it really IS that hard, or if people are making it harder than it needs to be.
I'm wondering for my area, so if it is markedly different somewhere else and people ARE struggling I apologize in advance.
I have not travel since December of 2019, so I cannot speak for how airports are. However, if you try to get a test anywhere in NYC right now you are out of luck, as you will be encountered with a line that has been forming since 5am, if not earlier. There are 2 clinics I drive by on my way to work and without fail, every day since mid December, there has been at least 100 people in line (not exaggerating). I know people who has tried to get tested in some of the other boroughs and they say the same thing.
Testing is so hectic in NYC right now, that the FDNY had to put out a statement telling people to not call 911 for Covid testing. People have been calling 911, with the hope of getting a test faster (easier?) than standing in line at a clinic for hours.
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-fdny-no-tests-sick-leave-covid-20211229-o2kfpsx4izgofbud7htb7iy3qe-story.html
Except I got a call last night that they both have the COVID. 82 and 84, and thankfully both vaccinated and under care, but this is going to be quite the next five days or so. My brother just had it, in November, so we're hoping he's got antibodies, and I tested negative on my return to CT and via a home kit last night, so there's that. The facility is really good, though, and they are on top of it. My parents are quarantined in their unit, and have all their meals and meds brought to them. But we'll see. So far, symptoms seem to be mild, but both are pretty susceptible to the ravages of the virus, so we're going to be on alert.
I wish both your parents a quick recovery, sorry to hear about your dads broken femur.
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Damn, Bill. Real sorry to hear that. Wishing you all the best.
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Bill... that's tough news to hear - I can't imagine how much stress and worry it's causing you. Hope the best for a positive outcome.
Testing here in Ontario is also an absolute shit show. Gov't is no longer offering discretionary testing for free - the testing system is just so overloaded. We're supposed to rely on at home tests for vax'd/mild symptom people. Except they've not distributed tests to the entire province - school children got some before the xmas break, and some were being handed out at random locations in mid December, but there aren't any available anymore. PCR tests are being reserved for higher-risk cases.
I'm fortunate that for a lot of things, and there aren't a lot of DIRECT health impact to the jingle.family around all of catastrophic handling of this by our Provincial gov't, but the indirect impacts are going to start catching up at some point.
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Stadler, I'll hold your parents in my thoughts. I can't imagine how stressful this must be for them and your family. :heart
Regarding the throat/nose swabbing, for those on Twitter, please read through Dr. Eric Feigl-Ding's (yes, I know) posts who is an epidemiologist and health economist (Harvard and John Hopkins). The UK is beginning to recommend this as a standard of testing and other countries have already been combining throat/nose swabbing.
Of course US health departments are not going to recommend people go against what their home test kits labels recommend. But inaccurate testing (not going deep enough in the nares, for example) is only going to continue to give false negatives. I'd like to see more studies but there are plenty of medically credentialed folks chiming in on his threads that they did 2 tests - 1 only nose and 1 both and the one with both came back positive while the one with only the nose came back negative. YMMV
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So, some of you know I've had to put my folks in assisted living over the last month and a half; mom has Alzheimer's, and my handicapped dad, who was taking care of her (I only add "handicapped" so you can get a full picture) fell in early November and severely broke his femur ("split it like a young sapling" according to the doctor). Mom went immediately to assisted living and dad went to the hospital and then into a month long rehab facility. Now they are together in the assisted living, and despite some hurdles (dad's short term memory is severely compromised; we're not sure if it is age, from the fall, stress or all three) they are, thank God, thriving.
Except I got a call last night that they both have the COVID. 82 and 84, and thankfully both vaccinated and under care, but this is going to be quite the next five days or so. My brother just had it, in November, so we're hoping he's got antibodies, and I tested negative on my return to CT and via a home kit last night, so there's that. The facility is really good, though, and they are on top of it. My parents are quarantined in their unit, and have all their meals and meds brought to them. But we'll see. So far, symptoms seem to be mild, but both are pretty susceptible to the ravages of the virus, so we're going to be on alert.
That's terrible to hear.
Prayers.
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It goes without saying, even though it shouldn't: I deeply appreciate the kind words, the thoughts, and the prayers. It means a lot.
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First, sorry to hear about your parents. Hoping for a quick recovery and they stay safe in their new home.
Having said that, I flew last week and upon returning, I walked right in to a testing lab at Bradley airport, there was one person in front of me - check that, a couple in front of me - and I was tested before the luggage on my flight came out. When my daughter flew in in December, she did the same thing, and later, during her trip, I drove her to the airport, she went in and got a test in about 15 minutes. So I wonder if it really IS that hard, or if people are making it harder than it needs to be.
I'm wondering for my area, so if it is markedly different somewhere else and people ARE struggling I apologize in advance.
Did you pay for your test? I had to pay to take one in the airport and my experience was not that different a few weeks ago, pretty much no wait to get a test and I paid 50 euros.
Here in NJ, there is a legit shortage but you can find doctor offices where it will cost you to get a test. If you want a free one, good luck. And I think that's part of the issue with the waits, people don't want to pay for a test and I don't blame them. Our government under both Trump and Biden have done a terrible job making sure tests are available to everyone. Looks like my free state provided test isn't arriving on schedule as they stated. My paid ones should arrive before the free one. I also paid $42 for a PCR test yesterday at my Dr friend's office. A family of four with symptoms isn't cheap to test.
Also, I was wondering if the airport is a the secret to getting a test. I think now that the holidays are over and covid everywhere, airports are back to being fairly empty (just my guess) so maybe that's a good spot to check for a test if you really need one and are willing to pay.
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Hope for the best bud.
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1 million... geez
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For the airport tests, I haven't given them a dollar, though the first time I did give my insurance card. I can check, but if memory serves I want to say it was $5? It was something very nominal.
Before the holidays, I went to CVS and got four boxes - each with two tests inside - for I think about $75.00. So I have both available to me. I recognize I am lucky in that regard, but I'm also realistic: if the only way someone is going to test themselves is if it is free, then I'm really not going to rely on them to do the other things necessary to improve the collective odds.
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Except I got a call last night that they both have the COVID. 82 and 84, and thankfully both vaccinated and under care, but this is going to be quite the next five days or so. My brother just had it, in November, so we're hoping he's got antibodies, and I tested negative on my return to CT and via a home kit last night, so there's that. The facility is really good, though, and they are on top of it. My parents are quarantined in their unit, and have all their meals and meds brought to them. But we'll see. So far, symptoms seem to be mild, but both are pretty susceptible to the ravages of the virus, so we're going to be on alert.
Bill, sorry to hear the news, and I hope they recover as quickly as possible. Sounds like they're in a good place. If it's a facility like the one my wife works at, you should feel good about that.
Also, this is obviously not good news, but at least they are together. God forbid this happened a few weeks ago and they'd have to stay separated through it.
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Sorry to hear about your parents Stadler.
Hope they both pull through it with only mild symptoms.
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Bill, I don't post here often (too busy at work) but I've known you for years. I'm sending you prayers and hoping your parents are going to be okay. Best of luck, brother.
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Sorry to hear about your parents, Stads. Hope they recover soon!
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They got a good in you Bill, I'm hoping they stay okay.
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I don't always check this thread, but sorry to hear about that as well, Bill.
Good luck and get better to everyone as well who has or is dealing with any losses due to COVID. This virus blows. :tdwn :tdwn
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So besides the "Flurona" talk, I've also been seeing on the news how the US should not expect the same outcome as South Africa regarding Omicron (quick peak, quick decline) because SA is currently in summer, and we are not.
I hope they are wrong, but we shall see in the next few weeks.
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It goes without saying, even though it shouldn't: I deeply appreciate the kind words, the thoughts, and the prayers. It means a lot.
Sorry to hear that Bill... prayers for them and for you bud. As TAC said, at least they're together through this; they'll take great comfort in that (and so should you).
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I hope only for the best for you and yours, Stadler. :hug:
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So besides the "Flurona" talk, I've also been seeing on the news how the US should not expect the same outcome as South Africa regarding Omicron (quick peak, quick decline) because SA is currently in summer, and we are not.
A point I've been thinking about quite a bit. Fortunately, a good portion of the US still has a warm(ish ... depending on "extreme" weather events) winter. Canada ... not as much.
1M cases yesterday in the US I saw?? I read a piece up here that the "official" case counts could be off by as much as 8x :omg:
Cascading effects... the local urgent care in my town will be closing tomorrow, so that doctors can be re-routed to higher need hospitals that can't handle the load. The region I live in, which has a population of about 500k, has almost 350 healthcare staff in isolation (with COVID, or a direct exposure). The hospital in Canada's 9th largest city (where I used to live) issued a Code-orange (ie, not enough nurses to tend to existing patients) 2 days ago. Normally the nurse-to-patient ratio is 1:4, and that hospital is dealing with a 1:10 ratio at the moment.
Sure wish I could just "do me" and still have ready access to healthcare, but it seems I can't/won't for the coming weeks (hopefully not months). If only people had seen this coming. Oh that's right, the experts did, but as usual, officials (and large portions of society) failed to act quickly and/or take the threat seriously.
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Finally got my booster shot here in Sweden.
Got a shot of Moderna this time, Pfizer both times before.
Will be iterrsting to see if the shingles (or whaterver it was I got after both previous shots) return again.
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So besides the "Flurona" talk, I've also been seeing on the news how the US should not expect the same outcome as South Africa regarding Omicron (quick peak, quick decline) because SA is currently in summer, and we are not.
A point I've been thinking about quite a bit. Fortunately, a good portion of the US still has a warm(ish ... depending on "extreme" weather events) winter. Canada ... not as much.
1M cases yesterday in the US I saw?? I read a piece up here that the "official" case counts could be off by as much as 8x :omg:
Cascading effects... the local urgent care in my town will be closing tomorrow, so that doctors can be re-routed to higher need hospitals that can't handle the load. The region I live in, which has a population of about 500k, has almost 350 healthcare staff in isolation (with COVID, or a direct exposure). The hospital in Canada's 9th largest city (where I used to live) issued a Code-orange (ie, not enough nurses to tend to existing patients) 2 days ago. Normally the nurse-to-patient ratio is 1:4, and that hospital is dealing with a 1:10 ratio at the moment.
Sure wish I could just "do me" and still have ready access to healthcare, but it seems I can't/won't for the coming weeks (hopefully not months). If only people had seen this coming. Oh that's right, the experts did, but as usual, officials (and large portions of society) failed to act quickly and/or take the threat seriously.
Look, I don't want to blow any good will I've earned here (again, I say thank you to all the good wishes; it well and truly makes me feel better, so know it was worth it. Special shout-out to emtee, since like he said I've known him for years but we haven't talked much recently). But what to do? Not all of this is about piss poor planning/performance. My parents weren't isolated prior, but they laid low for the Xmas holidays, and after that, the only two people they had any close contact with were... me and my brother. My brother had it in what'd I say? October? November? and tested negative recently, and I've had at least four tests - a combo of PCR and rapid - in the last month or so and tested negative every time. We wore masks religiously at the facility, and with one exception - dinner the night I was down there - we stayed well clear of people generally. I'm triple vaxx'd, and both parents have their shots (though no booster, as far as I know, unless the assisted living administered it and I'm not aware). Though I can't claim perfection, we essentially did everything about as right as you can. We followed the guidance, and yet here we are.
We're still 18 in terms of cases per million, and 21 in terms of deaths per million (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/), so we're not lighting it up in comparison to other countries. Though I will say, my standard comparison - Florida and California - is no longer valid; they're not even close at this point (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/). I guess I have to switch to either Florida and New York, or Florida and Massachusetts! :) :) I had a panic attack of sorts yesterday afternoon thinking that I was an asymptomatic (I'm not truly; I have no fever, but I have had a runny nose for about three weeks; that is typical of me when I fly, though and though I've flown multiple times in the last two months, as I said, I've tested negative multiple times in the the last month or so as well) carrier and that I'm to blame for doing something wrong. But that's hard to really justify if I'm being fair to myself.
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So besides the "Flurona" talk, I've also been seeing on the news how the US should not expect the same outcome as South Africa regarding Omicron (quick peak, quick decline) because SA is currently in summer, and we are not.
A point I've been thinking about quite a bit. Fortunately, a good portion of the US still has a warm(ish ... depending on "extreme" weather events) winter. Canada ... not as much.
1M cases yesterday in the US I saw?? I read a piece up here that the "official" case counts could be off by as much as 8x :omg:
Cascading effects... the local urgent care in my town will be closing tomorrow, so that doctors can be re-routed to higher need hospitals that can't handle the load. The region I live in, which has a population of about 500k, has almost 350 healthcare staff in isolation (with COVID, or a direct exposure). The hospital in Canada's 9th largest city (where I used to live) issued a Code-orange (ie, not enough nurses to tend to existing patients) 2 days ago. Normally the nurse-to-patient ratio is 1:4, and that hospital is dealing with a 1:10 ratio at the moment.
Sure wish I could just "do me" and still have ready access to healthcare, but it seems I can't/won't for the coming weeks (hopefully not months). If only people had seen this coming. Oh that's right, the experts did, but as usual, officials (and large portions of society) failed to act quickly and/or take the threat seriously.
And Nature is telling us Humans can't control Everything.
Even by doing all of this, the vaccinated are still catching Omicron. If the symptoms are mild and similar to the common cold, wouldn't you think people would assume what they have is a common cold, pounds down some cough medicine and heads out about their lives.
Also, people are panicking again and causing lots of clogging in the healthcare systems by going to ERs and calling them to get them tests because they fear they might have Omicron.
Nature and History proves to us how Fear causes humans to act in strange ways.
And if you read the article and study I posted and if obesity is that bad. The vaccine might not even be as affective for an obese person. And look at how much our country has this problem. You can relate the two.
For one, our health and access to these sustainable nutritious foods is a pandemic that is affecting humans, as we need these for sustanence. And it is a reason for why many less fortunate people are more susceptible to catching this virus.
I'm surprised that the hospitals, or more so the entire healthcare system, was not ready for another possible surge of people flocking to the hospitals and backing up the testing system. Were they not aware of what fear and panic does to people?
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So besides the "Flurona" talk, I've also been seeing on the news how the US should not expect the same outcome as South Africa regarding Omicron (quick peak, quick decline) because SA is currently in summer, and we are not.
A point I've been thinking about quite a bit. Fortunately, a good portion of the US still has a warm(ish ... depending on "extreme" weather events) winter. Canada ... not as much.
1M cases yesterday in the US I saw?? I read a piece up here that the "official" case counts could be off by as much as 8x :omg:
Cascading effects... the local urgent care in my town will be closing tomorrow, so that doctors can be re-routed to higher need hospitals that can't handle the load. The region I live in, which has a population of about 500k, has almost 350 healthcare staff in isolation (with COVID, or a direct exposure). The hospital in Canada's 9th largest city (where I used to live) issued a Code-orange (ie, not enough nurses to tend to existing patients) 2 days ago. Normally the nurse-to-patient ratio is 1:4, and that hospital is dealing with a 1:10 ratio at the moment.
Sure wish I could just "do me" and still have ready access to healthcare, but it seems I can't/won't for the coming weeks (hopefully not months). If only people had seen this coming. Oh that's right, the experts did, but as usual, officials (and large portions of society) failed to act quickly and/or take the threat seriously.
Look, I don't want to blow any good will I've earned here (again, I say thank you to all the good wishes; it well and truly makes me feel better, so know it was worth it. Special shout-out to emtee, since like he said I've known him for years but we haven't talked much recently). But what to do? Not all of this is about piss poor planning/performance. My parents weren't isolated prior, but they laid low for the Xmas holidays, and after that, the only two people they had any close contact with were... me and my brother. My brother had it in what'd I say? October? November? and tested negative recently, and I've had at least four tests - a combo of PCR and rapid - in the last month or so and tested negative every time. We wore masks religiously at the facility, and with one exception - dinner the night I was down there - we stayed well clear of people generally. I'm triple vaxx'd, and both parents have their shots (though no booster, as far as I know, unless the assisted living administered it and I'm not aware). Though I can't claim perfection, we essentially did everything about as right as you can. We followed the guidance, and yet here we are.
We're still 18 in terms of cases per million, and 21 in terms of deaths per million (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/), so we're not lighting it up in comparison to other countries. Though I will say, my standard comparison - Florida and California - is no longer valid; they're not even close at this point (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/). I guess I have to switch to either Florida and New York, or Florida and Massachusetts! :) :) I had a panic attack of sorts yesterday afternoon thinking that I was an asymptomatic (I'm not truly; I have no fever, but I have had a runny nose for about three weeks; that is typical of me when I fly, though and though I've flown multiple times in the last two months, as I said, I've tested negative multiple times in the the last month or so as well) carrier and that I'm to blame for doing something wrong. But that's hard to really justify if I'm being fair to myself.
You know how I talk about Blame...It's interesting that you placed the blame not on others, but yourself. Yet, you still needed to place blame...I am fascinated with understanding why must humans place blame?
You placed the blame on yourself and yet have no justification for that blame. You make yourself feel bad for no reason what so ever.
How are we so sure that the other is to blame for getting you sick, when you understand that risk is there when going to a public place congested with people. Am I to blame for ignoring that risk and getting myself sick, or is it the person who had no choice but to leave their house in order to get Theraflu or Day/Night-quil, or Aspirin?
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I hope people aren't placating or fooling themselves by thinking this is no big deal because (for the most part) symptoms are always milder. As I (hysterically) stated a couple of weeks ago, the sheer volume of cases is bringing about crushing increases in hospitalizations - of vaccinated people (50% of hospitalizations, and almost 50% of ICU beds are from vax'd individuals). Here, our hospitalizations doubled in the matter of a couple of days; ICU almost doubled in the same period.
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I'm still struggling with the numbers there. Yes, there are a lot more cases, but if the vast majority of symptoms are no worse than a bad cold or maybe the flu, then I really do wonder what the big deal is. It's a more contagious yet much less severe version of the virus.
Is it because with 1 million+ cases, even the small percentage of cases with severe symptoms amounts to more than we've seen in the past?
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I'm still struggling with the numbers there. Yes, there are a lot more cases, but if the vast majority of symptoms are no worse than a bad cold or maybe the flu, then I really do wonder what the big deal is. It's a more contagious yet much less severe version of the virus.
Exactly.
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I'm still struggling with the numbers there. Yes, there are a lot more cases, but if the vast majority of symptoms are no worse than a bad cold or maybe the flu, then I really do wonder what the big deal is. It's a more contagious yet much less severe version of the virus.
Hopefully this is where covid goes. I mean, imagine the numbers if we ticked off every case of the common cold or flu each year, they'd be astronomical.
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I think the focus of our leaders.....and I use that term loosely because America really doesn't have a decent leader to be seen....at least politically.....should be to start gearing the conversation towards the vaccination for Covid 19 becoming like the seasonal flu shot. Make it a combo shot.....then, when/if the large majority of people who get covid it'll be going under the weather a bit....much like the flu or a cold....then your through it and life goes on.
The special cases where underlying health issues and/or age or whatever that complicate covid will always be a factor I suppose....but, at some point there must be a realization that covid isn't going to go away..it's going to be with us for a while.
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I'm with Orbert on this mainly because just throwing sheer numbers at people without context isn't the correct thing to do although it does seem to be working on many. I'd rather see the actual rates of the severe cases (ICU, deaths) vs how many cases there are which I believe would be a more accurate assessment. If you wanted to do it even more correctly you'd put the number of those cases vs total population to gauge that as well. Yeah I know everyone isn't being constantly tested so there may be asymptomatic folks who don't bother with tests but it's at least a more honest benchmark to go off of.
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I'm familiar with the concept of herd immunity, but always wondered what it looks like as it plays out. Maybe this is it. Yes, many have died, and that sucks and I'm not belittling it. But those who survive did so because something about their physiology made them more resistant, and they pass that on to their kids. After x years, the ones who remain are the resistant ones, meanwhile the virus itself has mutated to something less dangerous, with some help from modern medicine and technology.
And this is probably a stupid analogy, but I think about the science fiction stories set in a "post-apocalypse" world. Some plague has wiped out a large percentage of the population, but the ones still around clearly have a greater natural resistance. The "thinning of the herd" happened sometime in the past. Perhaps that's what we're living through right now.
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I'm still struggling with the numbers there. Yes, there are a lot more cases, but if the vast majority of symptoms are no worse than a bad cold or maybe the flu, then I really do wonder what the big deal is. It's a more contagious yet much less severe version of the virus.
Is it because with 1 million+ cases, even the small percentage of cases with severe symptoms amounts to more than we've seen in the past?
Well, if there's a million cases and even only a small % of those requires hospitalizations that's still a large amount of people needing help. I do think there is legit concerns for this, but I'm not ready to "SHUT IT ALL DOWN" yet. However, my parents informed me of a few of their friends who are all in the hospital with covid right now and not doing so well. My friends father also got rushed to the hospital last night with covid.
I think we likely have a few more weeks of insane amounts of cases before things settle down and it's possible we reach that tipping point in that time frame, but I'm still on the "let's see" phase of if any restrictions are needed. I get the feeling that when we actually reach that point the tide will turn anyway though. It's going to be a rough january for the heros in health care, that's for sure.
On a personal note, I'm still sick but mostly just bad cold symptoms and tiredness. Still haven't gotten my PCR results and still haven't gotten any of my at home tests in the mail (apparenty 2 should arrive today). Not sure I should bother giving myself a test today. I think I just wait for the PCR results and test myself again when the symptoms are gone. My brother and his gf still test positive today and they are symptomless now.
Also, the deaths aren't rising at all. That's some more proof that while the vaccines aren't great at preventing infections with omicron, they still are great at preventing death. This should give people some comfort during this time of insane amount of infections.
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Here's the CDC's general information on the common cold coronavirus...
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/general-information.html
Human coronaviruses can sometimes cause lower-respiratory tract illnesses, such as pneumonia or bronchitis. This is more common in people with cardiopulmonary disease, people with weakened immune systems, infants, and older adults.
There is no vaccine to protect you against human coronaviruses and there are no specific treatments for illnesses caused by human coronaviruses. Most people with common human coronavirus illness will recover on their own. However, to relieve your symptoms you can:
take pain and fever medications (Caution: do not give aspirin to children)
use a room humidifier or take a hot shower to help ease a sore throat and cough
drink plenty of liquids
stay home and rest
If you are concerned about your symptoms, contact your healthcare provider.
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Delta cases are still occurring too - I've read some things that say that the hospitalizations are generally cases involving the delta variant. Delta seems to be the lower respiratory (chest/lungs) area and Omicron is upper respiratory (sinuses, cold-like symptoms).
It's sad seeing hospitals reporting bed shortages again. My local county board member/representative was asking questions on his personal Facebook page regarding hospital bed availability and how it is calculated. it's not about the number of available beds, but more about the number of nurses available for constant patient monitoring and care. His end goal was to find a way to blame the hospitals for their shortages, because they fired a minor percentage of their workforce over vaccine mandates. How can we be two years into this pandemic and be so antagonistic with medical professionals?
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I hope people aren't placating or fooling themselves by thinking this is no big deal because (for the most part) symptoms are always milder.
Well, symptoms are not "always" milder. However, the data seems to almost unanimously indicate that, for the vast majority of people, especially those who are fully vaccinated, take the typical recommended precautions, and have no underlying health conditions, there is an astronomically high likelihood that the symptoms will be mild. So with that in mind, I hardly think it is "fooling" oneself to think that potentially catching the virus is no big deal.
As I (hysterically) stated a couple of weeks ago, the sheer volume of cases is bringing about crushing increases in hospitalizations - of vaccinated people (50% of hospitalizations, and almost 50% of ICU beds are from vax'd individuals). Here, our hospitalizations doubled in the matter of a couple of days; ICU almost doubled in the same period.
That isn't exactly accurate either. From the reports and data I have seen, for the most part, it is not "the sheer volume of cases" that is causing the "crushing increases in hospitalizations." Rather, it is the overreaction to cases that seems to be a major contributor. In other words, hospitalizations that are unnecessary because the mild symptoms (or no symptoms at all, but just a positive test result) do not warrant hospitalization, are causing, or at least a major contributor to, the "crushing increases in hospitalizations."
As others have said, the numbers sound scary in a vaccuum. But there is missing context. That shouldn't minimize that people are still getting sick, and people are still dying. It doesn't minimize that health care workers are incredibly slammed to the point of exhaustion, and that patients who need care for other things are being impacted. But, again, contextualizing the numbers is important crucial.
So, again, I fall back to pretty much where I've been through most of this: Take reasonable precautions to slow the spread and transmissibility, including but not limited to full vaccination, but don't overreact. Overreaction is creating as many if not more problems, that are as severe if not more severe, than the actual virus. Actually, let me edit as I go... I think a more accurate restatement of my last sentence should be: overreaction is severely exacerbating existing problems, perhaps by several magnitudes, and creating other unnecessary ones. Caution is great. And I would even go so far as to say it is warranted and necessary. But overreaction/hysteria is not, and is incredibly counterproductive. The problem for all of us is that the line between the two is fuzzy, the criteria for deciding where the line is is also incredibly fuzzy and is also subjective in some areas, and there just isn't an easy way to come to a consensus on that. But no matter where you fall, I think it's important to keep talking about it, and keep trying to do so reasonably. Chad, when you moralize about the issue and passive-aggressively make light of others' positions (not to mention perhaps exaggerating and misstating them), that isn't productive. You reference mine quite a bit without mentioning me by name, as if that somehow deflects from the fact that you are taking shots at me. I'm not taking it personally, but just saying that that isn't helpful. I acknowledge your position, but I respectfully think there are some things that are wrong with it. You are welcome to do the same with my position. Let's talk it out without taking backhanded shots, please.
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Well, my daughter no longer has a sense of smell or taste. She had them yesterday and today both are totally gone. Still waiting on results from my wife and son's tests.
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I'm familiar with the concept of herd immunity, but always wondered what it looks like as it plays out. Maybe this is it. Yes, many have died, and that sucks and I'm not belittling it. But those who survive did so because something about their physiology made them more resistant, and they pass that on to their kids. After x years, the ones who remain are the resistant ones, meanwhile the virus itself has mutated to something less dangerous, with some help from modern medicine and technology.
And this is probably a stupid analogy, but I think about the science fiction stories set in a "post-apocalypse" world. Some plague has wiped out a large percentage of the population, but the ones still around clearly have a greater natural resistance. The "thinning of the herd" happened sometime in the past. Perhaps that's what we're living through right now.
The Stand.
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From the reports and data I have seen, for the most part, it is not "the sheer volume of cases" that is causing the "crushing increases in hospitalizations." Rather, it is the overreaction to cases that seems to be a major contributor. In other words, hospitalizations that are unnecessary because the mild symptoms (or no symptoms at all, but just a positive test result) do not warrant hospitalization, are causing, or at least a major contributor to, the "crushing increases in hospitalizations."
Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. You are saying that hospitals, who are overrun, are overrun because they are hospitalizing people who don't really need to be hospitalized?
That seems, on the face of it, ridiculous. Why would hospitals, who are already overworked, be hospitalizing people who, by definition, don't need to be hospitalized?
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I had a panic attack of sorts yesterday afternoon thinking that I was an asymptomatic (I'm not truly; I have no fever, but I have had a runny nose for about three weeks; that is typical of me when I fly, though and though I've flown multiple times in the last two months, as I said, I've tested negative multiple times in the the last month or so as well) carrier and that I'm to blame for doing something wrong. But that's hard to really justify if I'm being fair to myself.
Yeah Bill, don't do that to yourself.
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From the reports and data I have seen, for the most part, it is not "the sheer volume of cases" that is causing the "crushing increases in hospitalizations." Rather, it is the overreaction to cases that seems to be a major contributor. In other words, hospitalizations that are unnecessary because the mild symptoms (or no symptoms at all, but just a positive test result) do not warrant hospitalization, are causing, or at least a major contributor to, the "crushing increases in hospitalizations."
Let me make sure I understand what you're a lot of the data and reports are saying. You a lot of the data and reports are saying that hospitals, who are overrun, are overrun because they are hospitalizing people who don't really need to be hospitalized?
That seems, on the face of it, ridiculous. Why would hospitals, who are already overworked, be hospitalizing people who, by definition, don't need to be hospitalized?
That's a great question. I suspect the answer is complicated.
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I sincerely doubt a health professional is going to admit you to a hospital if it is not necessary. And if that does happen, I sincerely doubt a patient will be there for long, considering how many doctors and nurses typically work with a patient that is staying at a hospital.
A large chunk (almost everybody) of the hospitalised people will have a big problem if space runs out. Because then you reach a point were a lot of treatable cases will have a fatal outcome. Simply because they cannot get treatment. And that has always been the primary concern of handling covid outbreaks, to prevent that scenario (scenario black as our hospitals call it).
On a sidenote, I have undergone training for voluntary work in the hospitals, in case we do reach code black. I can check vitals of patients, so the professionals can focus on the worst cases/essential treatments. I was approached for this because I am a volunteer at the Red Cross. Thankfully, it does not seem likely this scenario will unfold.
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From the reports and data I have seen, for the most part, it is not "the sheer volume of cases" that is causing the "crushing increases in hospitalizations." Rather, it is the overreaction to cases that seems to be a major contributor. In other words, hospitalizations that are unnecessary because the mild symptoms (or no symptoms at all, but just a positive test result) do not warrant hospitalization, are causing, or at least a major contributor to, the "crushing increases in hospitalizations."
Let me make sure I understand what you're a lot of the data and reports are saying. You a lot of the data and reports are saying that hospitals, who are overrun, are overrun because they are hospitalizing people who don't really need to be hospitalized?
That seems, on the face of it, ridiculous. Why would hospitals, who are already overworked, be hospitalizing people who, by definition, don't need to be hospitalized?
That's a great question. I suspect the answer is complicated.
I haven't seen any such data saying that people are being hospitalized who don't actually need to be. Maybe I'm just missing out, or maybe it's on a regional basis.
Do you have links to any such data? I would be fascinated to see it.
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I think the more likely scenario is that hospitals are overrun because nurses and doctors are getting covid and need to be isolated, not because they are admitting people who don't need to be admitted.
Jingle said that is what is happening in Canada, I know it's happening here in Argentina as well and I think I read something similar is happening in the UK.
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I think the more likely scenario is that hospitals are overrun because nurses and doctors are getting covid and need to be isolated, not because they are admitting people who don't need to be admitted.
Jingle said that is what is happening in Canada, I know it's happening here in Argentina as well and I think I read something similar is happening in the UK.
Additionally, unvax'd healthcare professionals reached the January deadline of vaccinate or terminate. Lots of people here blinked, and got fired across many public service jobs. Staff shortages COMBINED with huge increase in admissions is crushing most Canadian hospitals.
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On a personal note, I'm still sick but mostly just bad cold symptoms and tiredness. Still haven't gotten my PCR results and still haven't gotten any of my at home tests in the mail (apparenty 2 should arrive today). Not sure I should bother giving myself a test today. I think I just wait for the PCR results and test myself again when the symptoms are gone. My brother and his gf still test positive today and they are symptomless now.
My gf got her tests in the mail, both her and her mother tested negative. She asked me to use one of mine and at that point, I really wanted to because this would be very odd if none of us were positive with covid...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIYBFdZX0AMB--7?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Yeah... I'm thinking this comes down to a few things. At home tests aren't 100% at confirming the omicron varaint so false negatives are more possible now than ever with these. Also, her symptoms were less severe than mine. AND she had moderna and more recently got boosted than me with my 2 J&J shots. I'm pretty sure she got covid too since she has symptoms, just not as bad as an infection. She's getting a PCR test tomorrow. My PCR test is still pending results, but we know the answer. I guess I have to continue my quarantine for another 5 days now according to the latest CDC guidelines.
My family has been joking now that since all my siblings got covid over the holidays that we are coming down to Florida for my mom's 65th bday party in a couple weeks with immunity.
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I think the more likely scenario is that hospitals are overrun because nurses and doctors are getting covid and need to be isolated, not because they are admitting people who don't need to be admitted.
Jingle said that is what is happening in Canada, I know it's happening here in Argentina as well and I think I read something similar is happening in the UK.
We got a note from the Superintendent of Schools from our old town (shitty school system; I've written about it before) and they are "hour to hour" on COVID and school. I'm not sure what that means - they're just going to send kids home at random? - but the emphasis was less on STUDENTS getting it than on not having available staff. He didn't go into details as to whether that meant staff WITH COVID or staff WITHOUT vaccines, but the point is, this isn't just about the students, or, by corollary, the patients in the hospitals. It's as much about who is going to take care of them.
Honestly, that seems like a bigger problem to me, since if it's JUST about bed space, you can bully that, right? Put beds in the hall. Make-shift beds out of tables. Etc. But if there's no one to treat, the next person that comes in with a heart attack, or a snake bite, or a car accident, they might as well just stay home, because the level of medical expertise will be the same (i.e. NONE) if there isn't a doctor or nurse present.
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Just tested positive. :-[
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Just tested positive. :-[
Good luck to you (sincerely). Thoughts are with you. Hopefully your symptoms aren't too bad?
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Thanks. No, not too bad, like a normal flu. My girlfriend (we live together) has tested negative yet she is sicker than me. We are both in isolation as of today as we work in same place. On the plus side, this finally gives me time to put some hours into Red Dead Redemption 2 that I installed last week on my PC ;)
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I think the more likely scenario is that hospitals are overrun because nurses and doctors are getting covid and need to be isolated, not because they are admitting people who don't need to be admitted.
Jingle said that is what is happening in Canada, I know it's happening here in Argentina as well and I think I read something similar is happening in the UK.
We got a note from the Superintendent of Schools from our old town (shitty school system; I've written about it before) and they are "hour to hour" on COVID and school. I'm not sure what that means - they're just going to send kids home at random? - but the emphasis was less on STUDENTS getting it than on not having available staff. He didn't go into details as to whether that meant staff WITH COVID or staff WITHOUT vaccines, but the point is, this isn't just about the students, or, by corollary, the patients in the hospitals. It's as much about who is going to take care of them.
Honestly, that seems like a bigger problem to me, since if it's JUST about bed space, you can bully that, right? Put beds in the hall. Make-shift beds out of tables. Etc. But if there's no one to treat, the next person that comes in with a heart attack, or a snake bite, or a car accident, they might as well just stay home, because the level of medical expertise will be the same (i.e. NONE) if there isn't a doctor or nurse present.
First off, best wishes to your family... I know this is tough. We are also currently in a similar situation with our son, but he seems to be making it through fine.
As far as I understand it, almost any time "beds" have been mentioned in one of these situations, what has been meant is really staffing, not beds. So beds are a bit of a misnomer the draws everyone's attention to those photos of people pouring into hospital hallways in India and Italy. That seems unlikely to happen in the US, at least most places, even at the current rate of spread.
I'm not sure why people say "beds" because it seems to oversimplify the problem in a way that is on the surface actually very alarming, but perhaps less alarming than the real problem of there simply not being enough highly certified people necessary to take care of how many people are getting sick.
By the way... also as far as I understand it, this is a problem with the healthcare system that didn't begin with COVID, it's just being exasperated by it. Hospitals, as a rule, are understaffed and nurses overworked, even with the appalling amount of money thrown at healthcare in this country. Something has to give. No one wants to see the system completely collapse because that means more people will die. The silver lining, I suppose, is that it might just take that for it to actually get fixed.
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Thanks. No, not too bad, like a normal flu. My girlfriend (we live together) has tested negative yet she is sicker than me. We are both in isolation as of today as we work in same place. On the plus side, this finally gives me time to put some hours into Red Dead Redemption 2 that I installed last week on my PC ;)
It's weird how this happens. My sister was exposed to covid, but her husband tested positive (he wasn't exposed directly) and my sister tested negative. Both were sick, so we assume they just both have covid. My brother and his gf felt sick, only she tested positive not my brother but they live together and both are ill, we assume they both have covid. My gf and I are both sick, while we don't live together, we had spent the holidays together and our time outside our homes together. Only I tested positive but we both are ill. I think we are just assuming she's got covid too, although she's getting a PCR today which should really confirm. It's very odd, but I just think it's very likely the anti-gen tests aren't great at detecting omicron. None of those examples included a PCR test.
Anyway, get well soon. Day 6 of symptoms for me and my head is still heavy but the congestion finally seems to be fading. I've had difficulty breathing not from my lungs but from my nose being so damn stuffy. I'm so over this now. Just want to go back to my life and get out of this house, but seems I'll be here until Monday the earliest.
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I think the more likely scenario is that hospitals are overrun because nurses and doctors are getting covid and need to be isolated, not because they are admitting people who don't need to be admitted.
Jingle said that is what is happening in Canada, I know it's happening here in Argentina as well and I think I read something similar is happening in the UK.
We got a note from the Superintendent of Schools from our old town (shitty school system; I've written about it before) and they are "hour to hour" on COVID and school. I'm not sure what that means - they're just going to send kids home at random? - but the emphasis was less on STUDENTS getting it than on not having available staff. He didn't go into details as to whether that meant staff WITH COVID or staff WITHOUT vaccines, but the point is, this isn't just about the students, or, by corollary, the patients in the hospitals. It's as much about who is going to take care of them.
Honestly, that seems like a bigger problem to me, since if it's JUST about bed space, you can bully that, right? Put beds in the hall. Make-shift beds out of tables. Etc. But if there's no one to treat, the next person that comes in with a heart attack, or a snake bite, or a car accident, they might as well just stay home, because the level of medical expertise will be the same (i.e. NONE) if there isn't a doctor or nurse present.
First off, best wishes to your family... I know this is tough. We are also currently in a similar situation with our son, but he seems to be making it through fine.
As far as I understand it, almost any time "beds" have been mentioned in one of these situations, what has been meant is really staffing, not beds. So beds are a bit of a misnomer the draws everyone's attention to those photos of people pouring into hospital hallways in the US and Italy. That seems unlikely to happen in the US, at least most places, even at the current rate of spread.
I'm not sure why people say "beds" because it seems to oversimplify the problem in a way that is on the surface actually very alarming, but perhaps less alarming than the real problem of there simply not being enough highly certified people necessary to take care of how many people are getting sick.
By the way... also as far as I understand it, this is a problem with the healthcare system that didn't begin with COVID, it's just being exasperated by it. Hospitals, as a rule, are understaffed and nurses overworked, even with the appalling amount of money thrown at healthcare in this country. Something has to give. No one wants to see the system completely collapse because that means more people will die. The silver lining, I suppose, is that it might just take that for it to actually get fixed.
I was going to say something similar. I remember watching an interview with a doctor from one of those makeshift tent facilities last year. The facility was empty despite a surging case count. The doctor said something like "more beds means nothing if I don't have nurses to work them".
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I think the more likely scenario is that hospitals are overrun because nurses and doctors are getting covid and need to be isolated, not because they are admitting people who don't need to be admitted.
Jingle said that is what is happening in Canada, I know it's happening here in Argentina as well and I think I read something similar is happening in the UK.
We got a note from the Superintendent of Schools from our old town (shitty school system; I've written about it before) and they are "hour to hour" on COVID and school. I'm not sure what that means - they're just going to send kids home at random? - but the emphasis was less on STUDENTS getting it than on not having available staff. He didn't go into details as to whether that meant staff WITH COVID or staff WITHOUT vaccines, but the point is, this isn't just about the students, or, by corollary, the patients in the hospitals. It's as much about who is going to take care of them.
Honestly, that seems like a bigger problem to me, since if it's JUST about bed space, you can bully that, right? Put beds in the hall. Make-shift beds out of tables. Etc. But if there's no one to treat, the next person that comes in with a heart attack, or a snake bite, or a car accident, they might as well just stay home, because the level of medical expertise will be the same (i.e. NONE) if there isn't a doctor or nurse present.
First off, best wishes to your family... I know this is tough. We are also currently in a similar situation with our son, but he seems to be making it through fine.
As far as I understand it, almost any time "beds" have been mentioned in one of these situations, what has been meant is really staffing, not beds. So beds are a bit of a misnomer the draws everyone's attention to those photos of people pouring into hospital hallways in the US and Italy. That seems unlikely to happen in the US, at least most places, even at the current rate of spread.
I'm not sure why people say "beds" because it seems to oversimplify the problem in a way that is on the surface actually very alarming, but perhaps less alarming than the real problem of there simply not being enough highly certified people necessary to take care of how many people are getting sick.
By the way... also as far as I understand it, this is a problem with the healthcare system that didn't begin with COVID, it's just being exasperated by it. Hospitals, as a rule, are understaffed and nurses overworked, even with the appalling amount of money thrown at healthcare in this country. Something has to give. No one wants to see the system completely collapse because that means more people will die. The silver lining, I suppose, is that it might just take that for it to actually get fixed.
Precisely. The Healthcare System itself was not that great. What could be done is making it easier to get the training to become a nurse, or make the education to become a nurse less complicated to achieve. By this I mean in terms of the costs of tuition and also the costs of attending an accredited school to be a qualified nurse. Are the people that get an education and graduate at a place like PIMA, or a secondary college, qualified to even get hired at a hospital?
What I see is all entirely human behavior. In this case, the behavior and attitude is based on does anyone even want to become a nurse or have job/career in the health field?
Thanks. No, not too bad, like a normal flu. My girlfriend (we live together) has tested negative yet she is sicker than me. We are both in isolation as of today as we work in same place. On the plus side, this finally gives me time to put some hours into Red Dead Redemption 2 that I installed last week on my PC ;)
It's weird how this happens. My sister was exposed to covid, but her husband tested positive (he wasn't exposed directly) and my sister tested negative. Both were sick, so we assume they just both have covid. My brother and his gf felt sick, only she tested positive not my brother but they live together and both are ill, we assume they both have covid. My gf and I are both sick, while we don't live together, we had spent the holidays together and our time outside our homes together. Only I tested positive but we both are ill. I think we are just assuming she's got covid too, although she's getting a PCR today which should really confirm. It's very odd, but I just think it's very likely the anti-gen tests aren't great at detecting omicron. None of those examples included a PCR test.
Anyway, get well soon. Day 6 of symptoms for me and my head is still heavy but the congestion finally seems to be fading. I've had difficulty breathing not from my lungs but from my nose being so damn stuffy. I'm so over this now. Just want to go back to my life and get out of this house, but seems I'll be here until Monday the earliest.
Take this bolded part and add in the mindset of people who assume it's a common cold and go about their day because they do not want to be stuck in the home. That's what I mean by mindsets and attitudes of people. Lots of people are so over it, and will just go about their day as normal if they do not feel the symptoms are bad and will assume it's a common cold, without getting a test to make sure. It's the same mindset and attitude as you assuming those people who did not take PCR tests or go see their doctors to see if it is a common cold are sick with Covid.
It's not weird at all. Humans are wired differently that what works for you, may not work for your partner. But it may work for your family members who do share some DNA and similar designs in structure to you. That's what makes you unique as a human being, and also why equity is difficult to achieve as an outcome as these differences in what makes an individual unique have to be addressed as well.
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Cram - have you tried a Breathe Right strip? When my kids were babies, I didn't want to take Nyquil at night when I was sick. I needed to stay lucid and be awake every few hours to feed them.
Breathe Right strips helped me a lot then and I still use them. Your head and nose get stuffed up, but it opens your nostril enough to still breathe, especially while laying down.
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Test results came in for my wife and son, both negative. My daughter is still isolating and still has no taste or smell. She has occasional breathing issues as well.
I just really don't want this, even though I know it is almost inevitable. My allergies and asthma are enough as it is. I don't need something else making it worse for me.
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Cram - have you tried a Breathe Right strip? When my kids were babies, I didn't want to take Nyquil at night when I was sick. I needed to stay lucid and be awake every few hours to feed them.
Breathe Right strips helped me a lot then and I still use them. Your head and nose get stuffed up, but it opens your nostril enough to still breathe, especially while laying down.
I had not. I may have some still though from testing them out from snoring years ago.
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Test results came in for my wife and son, both negative. My daughter is still isolating and still has no taste or smell. She has occasional breathing issues as well.
I just really don't want this, even though I know it is almost inevitable. My allergies and asthma are enough as it is. I don't need something else making it worse for me.
It's funny, Prof; I was thinking something similar this morning. It seems like it's all around me, and it FEELS like it's inevitable (and I might even say "I feel like I must've had it by now") but my God, I really just don't want to see that "positive". I don't have asthma, but in terms of my daily obligations, it would REALLY send the family into a tizzy (I do all the cooking, I do most of the driving my stepson to and from school, etc.).
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My usual go-to sickness in the winter is a bronchitis / chest-infection. Seeing as how susceptible I've always been for that, I'm not terribly eager to test my luck with 'rona.
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Feels like the fogey thread all of a sudden. :lol
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Sad to read a lot of these posts. Hope everyone and their families recover quickly.
So, in my workplace I now have 5 staff members confirmed positive and 4 waiting on results with 3 of them looking like leaning towards the positive side. Interesting to note that all 9 of these people are vaccinated. To say this virus is putting a strain on businesses is a severe understatement. My workload is already large but this is becoming a nightmare.
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My usual go-to sickness in the winter is a bronchitis / chest-infection. Seeing as how susceptible I've always been for that, I'm not terribly eager to test my luck with 'rona.
Same for me. My cough lingers for months.
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since december 24th my parents have had to be tested twice because of people they were in contact with, thankfully it's been negative both times but damn it just keep happening, there's just no escaping it.
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So a guy at work has Covid (apparently, I am not sure how much I trust him...) He is at a job site that is currently unoccupied, working by himself. I had to take some materials to him, so left them on the porch and texted him that they were there. He came out to tell me something, and I had a moment of panic. It was the first time ever I was within speaking distance of someone whom I knew to have Covid.
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So a guy at work has Covid (apparently, I am not sure how much I trust him...) He is at a job site that is currently unoccupied, working by himself. I had to take some materials to him, so left them on the porch and texted him that they were there. He came out to tell me something, and I had a moment of panic. It was the first time ever I was within speaking distance of someone whom I knew to have Covid.
I wouldn't worry. By this point, you've probably been within speaking distance of a number of people who've had Covid.
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I came to terms with the possibility, or probability, a long time ago. Today was just the first time I knew for a fact (again, according to him) that I spoke with someone who had it.
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I came to terms with the possibility, or probability, a long time ago. Today was just the first time I knew for a fact (again, according to him) that I spoke with someone who had it.
I can see how that'd be weird.
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One of the benefits of having such a small circle, I guess. I know more people on this forum who have had it than I've known about in real life. The only person close to me is my brother-in-law's sister (if that counts as close) and she was fine after a couple days.
My wife has a couple kids out with possible Covid. She teaches some medically fragile kids, so basically told all the parents "if your kid so much as sneezes, keep them home."
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I know a lot of people IRL that have gotten/have Covid. I've heard all kinds of reasons about how they were exposed. However, and I know this is anecdotal, I don't know a single person who's said something along the lines of "I don't know how we got it we were all masked". Every single person I know that got it did so because they were unmasked around the person they got it from. The place I work on Sundays has people (masks required) in tight kitchen spaces shoulder to shoulder, with many employees being front-facing and interacting with the public. There hasn't been an outbreak in any of our four locations. Maybe masks do do the trick.
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I know a lot of people IRL that have gotten/have Covid. I've heard all kinds of reasons about how they were exposed. However, and I know this is anecdotal, I don't know a single person who's said something along the lines of "I don't know how we got it we were all masked". Every single person I know that got it did so because they were unmased around the person the got it from. The place I work on Sundays has people (masks required) in tight kitchen spaces shoulder to shoulder, with many employees being front-facing and interacting with the public. There hasn't been an outbreak in any of our four locations. Maybe masks do do the trick.
I've had a similar experience with Whole Foods...at peak times we'll have ten to fifteen shoppers in a tight space. It's CA, so we've been masked the whole time, and while we've had cases, every case has been traced to outside transfer.
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My usual go-to sickness in the winter is a bronchitis / chest-infection. Seeing as how susceptible I've always been for that, I'm not terribly eager to test my luck with 'rona.
Same for me. My cough lingers for months.
I'm a sniffles guy. Back pre-'rona, I could always be counted on to have a tissue or two in my pocket to counter the sniffles.
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I know a lot of people IRL that have gotten/have Covid. I've heard all kinds of reasons about how they were exposed. However, and I know this is anecdotal, I don't know a single person who's said something along the lines of "I don't know how we got it we were all masked". Every single person I know that got it did so because they were unmased around the person the got it from. The place I work on Sundays has people (masks required) in tight kitchen spaces shoulder to shoulder, with many employees being front-facing and interacting with the public. There hasn't been an outbreak in any of our four locations. Maybe masks do do the trick.
I've had a similar experience with Whole Foods...at peak times we'll have ten to fifteen shoppers in a tight space. It's CA, so we've been masked the whole time, and while we've had cases, every case has been traced to outside transfer.
I was talking with my boss about this; I've flown 12 times since November 1 (I count each leg as "one time"; so I flew to three locations) as has my boss. We know for a FACT that there was one person on one of his flights that had COVID while flying (long story, didn't really have a ton of options to get back home for an unrelated medical reason) so I can only surmise that I was on at least one flight with one person with the COVIDs. I have tested negative somewhere on the order of 6 or 7 times in that span. With all that, and a rash of COVID positives amongst family, friends, and co-workers, we don't know of any person that caught COVID from a flight.
But I'm skeptical. There are people eating and drinking. Wearing their masks around their chins. Sitting at the airport bar with no mask at all. It's certainly not a foolproof scenario.
I am no Qanon conspiracy theorist, but I think this is proof of nothing more than we don't know as much as we think we know about the coronavirus and it's transmitability.
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Bill, how are your folks making out?
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Bill, how are your folks making out?
Gross.
But how are they?
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Bill, how are your folks making out?
Gross.
Wait..people pay to see you for their issues?
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You know, it's funny. Adami DOES clearly have issues, but my parents are interesting in this way. Married 57 years this past November, and it was crazy to watch them while they were apart. This is the shit that Nicholas Sparks writes about. My mom, 84, 110 pounds, max and walking with a cane, trying to lean over and kiss my dad goodbye when we left the hospital room. I envy them in that way.
But they are doing better. Mom's symptoms are not gone but they are better each day. My dad has symptoms (though I'm not 100% clear if he ACTUALLY tested positive or is just in quarantine because of proximity) but they are status quo. It's the equivalent of them getting a reasonably bad seasonal cold at this point, so I am grateful beyond words.
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That's great to hear, Bill.
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Very good news
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Bill, how are your folks making out?
Gross.
Wait..people pay to see you for their issues?
How else would I support my own issues?
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Now that I already know my results, I now have all the tests. My state saliva test came in the mail and 4 rapid tests I ordered from Amazon like 10 days ago just got in. I have one more set of rapid tests arriving on Sunday as well and my extra leftover one from the package I used Wednesday.
Almost a full week and I still have symptoms though. It's not terrible, it's just so annoying that it seems I only get like a single % better each day. Going to self test again on Sunday to see if I can return to work, but I'm not hopeful unless I see some serious improvement over the weekend.
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Bill, how are your folks making out?
Gross.
But how are they?
Choked on my tea reading this. :lol
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Almost a full week and I still have symptoms though. It's not terrible, it's just so annoying that it seems I only get like a single % better each day. Going to self test again on Sunday to see if I can return to work, but I'm not hopeful unless I see some serious improvement over the weekend.
That's a bummer Marc. I feel for ya. We were extremely lucky. Within a week of first symptoms we were all symptom free. The residual hold out of any type of symptom is this nagging feeling to clear my throat a few times a day.....like there's a chunk of something back there but it's dry as a bone.
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Almost a full week and I still have symptoms though. It's not terrible, it's just so annoying that it seems I only get like a single % better each day. Going to self test again on Sunday to see if I can return to work, but I'm not hopeful unless I see some serious improvement over the weekend.
That's a bummer Marc. I feel for ya. We were extremely lucky. Within a week of first symptoms we were all symptom free. The residual hold out of any type of symptom is this nagging feeling to clear my throat a few times a day.....like there's a chunk of something back there but it's dry as a bone.
I've got that same feeling with regards to the throat except lately it's turned into something back there :lol I didn't start off mucusy at all but it's what I've turned into. Maybe I got the flurona
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Almost a full week and I still have symptoms though. It's not terrible, it's just so annoying that it seems I only get like a single % better each day. Going to self test again on Sunday to see if I can return to work, but I'm not hopeful unless I see some serious improvement over the weekend.
That's a bummer Marc. I feel for ya. We were extremely lucky. Within a week of first symptoms we were all symptom free. The residual hold out of any type of symptom is this nagging feeling to clear my throat a few times a day.....like there's a chunk of something back there but it's dry as a bone.
I've got that same feeling with regards to the throat except lately it's turned into something back there :lol I didn't start off mucusy at all but it's what I've turned into. Maybe I got the flurona
Not to get overly graphic but there was a 2-3 day period last week as we were recovering where I was....ummmm.....hacking up and getting rid of a lot of unwanted and unneeded flem.
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Turns out my 18 month old officially has it. And should be on day 7 or so of symptoms. Not much worse than a normal cold for him, thankfully. Of course we have to worry about symptoms getting more severe after seeming to improve, potential long term effects, and so on... I don't want to speak to soon or jinx myself. But the feeling thus far is kind of relieved. So much of our lives have been centered around avoiding for this scenario as much as possible. Now we're here, I feel like we can move on.
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Now we're here, I feel like we can move on.
Exactly how I feel.
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Turns out my 18 month old officially has it. And should be on day 7 or so of symptoms. Not much worse than a normal cold for him, thankfully. Of course we have to worry about symptoms getting more severe after seeming to improve, potential long term effects, and so on... I don't want to speak to soon or jinx myself. But the feeling thus far is kind of relieved. So much of our lives have been centered around avoiding for this scenario as much as possible. Now we're here, I feel like we can move on.
I think that is the premise of facing the fear. And also, it reveals just how your brain will conjure up things based on that fear, and will exaggerate more wild theories than what reality shows you. I also wonder if the idea of a "jinx" also does make your brain work in weird ways to where it becomes true because you were thinking of it, rather than not thinking about it at all.
If Conspiracy Theories are based on fears that conjure up crazy theories and ideas. Wouldn't the same be for fear of anything. Like how people generate fear of what's lurking in the dark at night, and their fear subsides when it's just a cat or the wind moving the trees that sounds eerie and spooky.
It's why for me, Fear is a big factor in how many humans perceive and respond to the world and world events where humans do not know for sure, which in turn can generate fear of the unknown in people.
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Turns out my 18 month old officially has it. And should be on day 7 or so of symptoms. Not much worse than a normal cold for him, thankfully. Of course we have to worry about symptoms getting more severe after seeming to improve, potential long term effects, and so on... I don't want to speak to soon or jinx myself. But the feeling thus far is kind of relieved. So much of our lives have been centered around avoiding for this scenario as much as possible. Now we're here, I feel like we can move on.
I think that is the premise of facing the fear. And also, it reveals just how your brain will conjure up things based on that fear, and will exaggerate more wild theories than what reality shows you. I also wonder if the idea of a "jinx" also does make your brain work in weird ways to where it becomes true because you were thinking of it, rather than not thinking about it at all.
If Conspiracy Theories are based on fears that conjure up crazy theories and ideas. Wouldn't the same be for fear of anything. Like how people generate fear of what's lurking in the dark at night, and their fear subsides when it's just a cat or the wind moving the trees that sounds eerie and spooky.
It's why for me, Fear is a big factor in how many humans perceive and respond to the world and world events where humans do not know for sure, which in turn can generate fear of the unknown in people.
WUT?
Fear is having an 18 month old that's sick. That's fear. Jeesh.
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Sad to read a lot of these posts. Hope everyone and their families recover quickly.
So, in my workplace I now have 5 staff members confirmed positive and 4 waiting on results with 3 of them looking like leaning towards the positive side. Interesting to note that all 9 of these people are vaccinated. To say this virus is putting a strain on businesses is a severe understatement. My workload is already large but this is becoming a nightmare.
Just following on from what I posted here, got a couple more that looks like they have it. We are seeing a massive wave and more than we've ever seen in my state and going to get worse.
Nevertheless, I don't follow the thread much but is anyone from a managerial point of view on here seeing the crippling effects from a staffing point of view? I've worked through lockdowns and putting staff off a couple of times, but this is a whole new ball game. Still operating a business with the workers falling down all around me. Just curious if anyone on here is experiencing this side of the virus. Apologies if it's been discussed.
I literally take one day at a time and see what I need to do and juggle for the next day just to operate. Like chasing your own tail. 7 days a week too.
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Sorry to hear that Wolfking,
Yeah, I think it's something that's being experienced by many. My previous job, only a few times did we had to quarantine, or closed down for a day because of COVID. While I'm not at that job anymore, literally a week after people started testing positive and feeling I'll. By the New Year almost half the staff was in quarantine and some programs had to be shut down.
Where I'm working now I'm still too new to speak of past situations, but the week before Christmas 4 of our directors and managers were out along with some other employees. Worked out for me because it sped up my learning of the job but scrambling with the few employees we had was a bit difficult.
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Sad to read a lot of these posts. Hope everyone and their families recover quickly.
So, in my workplace I now have 5 staff members confirmed positive and 4 waiting on results with 3 of them looking like leaning towards the positive side. Interesting to note that all 9 of these people are vaccinated. To say this virus is putting a strain on businesses is a severe understatement. My workload is already large but this is becoming a nightmare.
Just following on from what I posted here, got a couple more that looks like they have it. We are seeing a massive wave and more than we've ever seen in my state and going to get worse.
Nevertheless, I don't follow the thread much but is anyone from a managerial point of view on here seeing the crippling effects from a staffing point of view? I've worked through lockdowns and putting staff off a couple of times, but this is a whole new ball game. Still operating a business with the workers falling down all around me. Just curious if anyone on here is experiencing this side of the virus. Apologies if it's been discussed.
I literally take one day at a time and see what I need to do and juggle for the next day just to operate. Like chasing your own tail. 7 days a week too.
I don't recall it being much of a big discussion, as the cases weren't so astronomically high until now. Imagine being in emergency services (fire, police, health), and having to deal with such shortages! Oh yeah, we don't have to imagine that hard. :-\
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Our company is on the breaking point as far as staffing. We have one contract that has 25% of the staff out, and we've been playing musical staff.. Moving players around to plug the holes.
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Even when people can work from home, it feels like it's reaching a breaking point. There's only so much you can do (even from home) with young children home. Everyone on my team is "working" while taking care of their sick kids, spouses, or even sick themselves. There's an understanding that this sucks and not much can be done about it.
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(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/271541614_10221083094090141_1631175634050047196_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=wwknd5iv9aIAX-4QsnW&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=00_AT8nlvxQQgH46U6LjCWFOL7uT4qnT-pUBhvRGtwHgrFoqw&oe=61E08EA5)
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Still got some mild cold symptoms but I tested negative today. Work wants me to stay home a couple more days to be safe, but looks I can return to normal life after 8 days.
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(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/271541614_10221083094090141_1631175634050047196_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=wwknd5iv9aIAX-4QsnW&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=00_AT8nlvxQQgH46U6LjCWFOL7uT4qnT-pUBhvRGtwHgrFoqw&oe=61E08EA5)
For real. I've been ping ponging back and forth across the country for about a month and I'm amazed I haven't caught it (just tested the other day). Knock on wood but I'm amazed I haven't had it yet.
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I know what you mean. I've worked in a grocery store for 5-6 days a week and my wife works in an assisted living facility, and we've been quite lucky. I suppose at any time we could've been asymptomatic.
But my doctor told me that because I'm a diabetic, I'm going to KNOW IT when I get it.
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Sorry to hear that Wolfking,
Yeah, I think it's something that's being experienced by many. My previous job, only a few times did we had to quarantine, or closed down for a day because of COVID. While I'm not at that job anymore, literally a week after people started testing positive and feeling I'll. By the New Year almost half the staff was in quarantine and some programs had to be shut down.
Where I'm working now I'm still too new to speak of past situations, but the week before Christmas 4 of our directors and managers were out along with some other employees. Worked out for me because it sped up my learning of the job but scrambling with the few employees we had was a bit difficult.
I work for a Government body running community facilities for the public so I get paid no matter what so I'm grateful but what you mentioned in that first paragraph is kind of where we are at. The State Government though yesterday has now pushed the start of school back 2 weeks, which will affect our swimming lessons. I'll have to make that decision today but I have no choice but to postpone our start of term to fall in line, so things getting heavily affected now here after such a good run.
Sad to read a lot of these posts. Hope everyone and their families recover quickly.
So, in my workplace I now have 5 staff members confirmed positive and 4 waiting on results with 3 of them looking like leaning towards the positive side. Interesting to note that all 9 of these people are vaccinated. To say this virus is putting a strain on businesses is a severe understatement. My workload is already large but this is becoming a nightmare.
Just following on from what I posted here, got a couple more that looks like they have it. We are seeing a massive wave and more than we've ever seen in my state and going to get worse.
Nevertheless, I don't follow the thread much but is anyone from a managerial point of view on here seeing the crippling effects from a staffing point of view? I've worked through lockdowns and putting staff off a couple of times, but this is a whole new ball game. Still operating a business with the workers falling down all around me. Just curious if anyone on here is experiencing this side of the virus. Apologies if it's been discussed.
I literally take one day at a time and see what I need to do and juggle for the next day just to operate. Like chasing your own tail. 7 days a week too.
I don't recall it being much of a big discussion, as the cases weren't so astronomically high until now. Imagine being in emergency services (fire, police, health), and having to deal with such shortages! Oh yeah, we don't have to imagine that hard. :-\
Indeed, its happening and fast.
Our company is on the breaking point as far as staffing. We have one contract that has 25% of the staff out, and we've been playing musical staff.. Moving players around to plug the holes.
Pretty much. I'm juggling my rosters daily. Just last night hence my post being Sunday night 2 more texting me one getting symptoms and one has her son now more than likely having the virus.
Messages come at 7pm and one was working at 5am the next morning. I myself already start somewhere else at 5am each day so definitely feel that pain. This has been a daily occurrence since Boxing Day. Its really testing my patience and resilience. Working 7 days a week isn't much fun.
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I know what you mean. I've worked in a grocery store for 5-6 days a week and my wife works in an assisted living facility, and we've been quite lucky. I suppose at any time we could've been asymptomatic.
But my doctor told me that because I'm a diabetic, I'm going to KNOW IT when I get it.
Keep dodging those bullets brother.
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Even when people can work from home, it feels like it's reaching a breaking point. There's only so much you can do (even from home) with young children home. Everyone on my team is "working" while taking care of their sick kids, spouses, or even sick themselves. There's an understanding that this sucks and not much can be done about it.
Its unfortunate, but that's pretty much it.
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I know what you mean. I've worked in a grocery store for 5-6 days a week and my wife works in an assisted living facility, and we've been quite lucky. I suppose at any time we could've been asymptomatic.
But my doctor told me that because I'm a diabetic, I'm going to KNOW IT when I get it.
Keep dodging those bullets brother.
You too, man!
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I know what you mean. I've worked in a grocery store for 5-6 days a week and my wife works in an assisted living facility, and we've been quite lucky. I suppose at any time we could've been asymptomatic.
But my doctor told me that because I'm a diabetic, I'm going to KNOW IT when I get it.
Keep dodging those bullets brother.
You too, man!
I'm doing Matrix style moves at the moment there's so many of them coming at me.
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At least you can. :lol
I'd bust a hip, dislocate a shoulder..
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:lol Outstanding!
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Back to working from home fulltime...for now. :corn
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Same. We were supposed to return on the 18th. No new date on the horizon. Looks like we might actually hit the two year mark. That's so freaking wild.
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I haven't worked at home since before the summer, but I will be doing so this Thursday and Friday morning to see if it goes well. The restrictions here in Sweden has gotten harder now.
My job kind of requires that I'm at the office, since I help my colleagues with their IT issues, but I guess I can try to help them via phone or mail the best I can, instead of in person (which ideally is the best).
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And my 6 year old daughter tested positive on her Shield testing (she spits in a test-tube every Monday at school to be covid tested).
She's scared and upset, but mostly worried that she'll infect her 4-year old, unvaccinated brother. So we're all in quarantine until next Tuesday. Wife and I are feeling a bit off today and we may use our last back of at-home tests just to see if we have it.
Edit - we tested negative on the at-home tests. We both have headaches, so it may just be that our 3 Pfizer shots are holding the virus at bay enough to not trigger a positive result, or we're not quite fully symptomatic yet.
I'm mainly concerned for my son, who is too young to be vaccinated. The good news is that we just have to get through the next week - her school just adopted the 5 day quarantine period. I'm actually a bit relieved that it's happening.
My brother in law tested positive last night - he's basically unvaccinated and was due to get his J&J booster today. He was pretty sick, so it's nice to see my daughter handling it better than him (he has bad Crohn's and is immunocompromised).
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I haven't worked at home since before the summer, but I will be doing so this Thursday and Friday morning to see if it goes well. The restrictions here in Sweden has gotten harder now.
My job kind of requires that I'm at the office, since I help my colleagues with their IT issues, but I guess I can try to help them via phone or mail the best I can, instead of in person (which ideally is the best).
You're able to remotely share your screen right? That's the way we do it. :tup
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I haven't worked at home since before the summer, but I will be doing so this Thursday and Friday morning to see if it goes well. The restrictions here in Sweden has gotten harder now.
My job kind of requires that I'm at the office, since I help my colleagues with their IT issues, but I guess I can try to help them via phone or mail the best I can, instead of in person (which ideally is the best).
You're able to remotely share your screen right? That's the way we do it. :tup
Yeah we have that possibility through Teams, so that's always an option.
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So quick update; the parents are doing better. I think symptomatically they're fine now, but have three more days of the quarantine. It's been a struggle and my dad in particular is struggling with the idea that "I feel fine, why am I stuck in here!" syndrome. It's not coming from a place of selfishness, he's good like that, but more his memory/awareness sort of "forgetting" what the whole protocol is with the COVID.
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I'd say about 50% of the people I've been on calls with so far this year have COVID. Just talked with a colleague who's been struggling with it for 10 days now.
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Good to hear Stads, and as someone who hasn't lost their memory, the whole quarantine thing is kind of rough on it's own so I can see how that's very difficult for your parents.
Turns out one of my anti-vax friends got covid a couple weeks ago but kind of dissapeared last week. I had assumed he went on the vacation he was supposed to go on before he got covid and had to cancel. Nope, turns out this 33 year old unvaxxed guy was in the hospital from his covid. He seems to not want to talk about it, not surprising given how vocally anti-vax he was.
The NYTimes this morning did another fantastic piece about how this is still an issue of the unvaccinated mostly. Vaccinated people just aren't dying excessively or clogging up the hospitals from their data, it's still very dominantly unvaccinated people who are at risk of severe illness and death.
and I return to my normal life of work and hanging with the gf tomorrow although a slight cough still lingers :yarr
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But I saw on the news this morning that vaccinated people are making up the majority of hospitalizations. I really don't know what to believe anymore so I frankly am not caring about any of it. It gives me a headache to think about and that's a shame. I genuinely have no idea what the truth is. Other than treating it like the flu and hoping you don't get it and practicing traditional hygiene I'm not sure what else there is to do :(
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But I saw on the news this morning that vaccinated people are making up the majority of hospitalizations. I really don't know what to believe anymore so I frankly am not caring about any of it. It gives me a headache to think about and that's a shame. I genuinely have no idea what the truth is. Other than treating it like the flu and hoping you don't get it and practicing traditional hygiene I'm not sure what else there is to do :(
It can be both. We're at a point now, though, where the details are important, and our media does us a disservice when it comes to that. Roughly 85% of Americans have at least one shot at this point. I don't want to baffle you with numbers, but if you have a population of, say, 100,000, that means 85,000 are vaccinated, and 15,000 are not. If half of all unvaccinated get the COVIDs, that's 7500 people. If even 10% of the vaccinated get sick, that's 8500, MORE than the number of vaccinated. So this is a problem of the unvaccinated, in that their odds are bad to get it, and it's an outsome where the majority of people in hospital are vaccinated.
So this is, perhaps, less a matter of how effective the vaccine is, or anything else medical, and almost a pure problem of probabilities.
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But I saw on the news this morning that vaccinated people are making up the majority of hospitalizations. I really don't know what to believe anymore so I frankly am not caring about any of it. It gives me a headache to think about and that's a shame. I genuinely have no idea what the truth is. Other than treating it like the flu and hoping you don't get it and practicing traditional hygiene I'm not sure what else there is to do :(
Could be true for certain localities. And for certain parts of the world of high vaccination rates, it's going to be the case. Here's the link for what I was talking about, it only looked at New York City and Seattle for example so I'm not sure how other areas would follow up. But those graphs show a pretty clear difference.
https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20220111&instance_id=49977&nl=the-morning&productCode=NN®i_id=163128761&segment_id=79338&te=1&uri=nyt%3A%2F%2Fnewsletter%2F2d576889-cf8f-5fe4-8389-73e50d2a0819&user_id=5bb2286c63e7587df5a90d80379e00c1 (https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20220111&instance_id=49977&nl=the-morning&productCode=NN®i_id=163128761&segment_id=79338&te=1&uri=nyt%3A%2F%2Fnewsletter%2F2d576889-cf8f-5fe4-8389-73e50d2a0819&user_id=5bb2286c63e7587df5a90d80379e00c1)
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Great news Stadler!
My son's isolation ends tomorrow, but they just called to let them know that his classroom is shut down. Until next week. We're holding up pretty well... I think. I mean, my mouse went launching through my computer monitor at some point Monday due to the pressure of 3 jobs (in addition to job 1 and parenting, covering for a coworker who is on family leave ironically)... but, that aside, I'm fine? I guess? Neither the mouse nor the computer monitor survived the event, BTW...
The saga continues...
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In my county, the unvaccinated cases far outpace the vaccinated break through cases. I live in a small town and we were down to 20 something cases in mid-January. We are now up to 122 and have trended upwards the last 3 weeks.
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Same. We were supposed to return on the 18th. No new date on the horizon. Looks like we might actually hit the two year mark. That's so freaking wild.
Same here... and it's a permanent thing for us most likely. We sold one of our offices (my office) and we're not renewing the lease on the other satellite office. We're down to just the main office (owned by the business) and that one's empty. We're all working remotely and plan to stay that way. Commercial Real Estate may not be what it once was for businesses... we saw that coming and made an early move. I feel like it was the right move.
Never thought I'd work from home... March 17th will mark two years. Glad we are agile enough to make the change.. being that we're completely paperless and our client systems are as well.
@ Bill... that's very good new! Glad to hear it.
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@Stadler glad your parents are okay
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Just heard at Newark Airport, 1/3 of united employees called out sick :omg:
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Just heard at Newark Airport, 1/3 of united employees called out sick :omg:
United also just announced none of their employees have died of covid recently and have touted that as a success for forcing vaccinations a couple months ago. As to Newark, it's safe to say covid is everywhere in NJ.
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After finally securing my CIO's stamp of approval for 100% work from home, the company pivoted with the newest surge. They crunched the numbers and IT was actually more productive than ever while working from home. Now they are offering anyone that wants it the opportunity. They are already looking to dump some of our downtown space to turn it over to income space.
Either way, I don't ever want to go in again. This is perfect.
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Just heard at Newark Airport, 1/3 of united employees called out sick :omg:
United also just announced none of their employees have died of covid recently and have touted that as a success for forcing vaccinations a couple months ago. As to Newark, it's safe to say covid is everywhere in NJ.
It's just everywhere. Pretty much every company that services the building I'm at has at least half the staff out, and many companies are talking of going dark again, at least during omicron.
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But I saw on the news this morning that vaccinated people are making up the majority of hospitalizations. I really don't know what to believe anymore so I frankly am not caring about any of it. It gives me a headache to think about and that's a shame. I genuinely have no idea what the truth is. Other than treating it like the flu and hoping you don't get it and practicing traditional hygiene I'm not sure what else there is to do :(
Vaccines work.
But there is a variety of reason why this can the case (and will be, if enough people are vaccinated), some of which are:
-When the majority of the people is vaccinated that group has a larger representation. Not real number but as an example: 1% of 800 (8) vaccinated people is more than 3% of 200 (6) non-vaccinated people, with a three fold difference in chance of hospitalization (which is big).
-On many locations the percentage of elderly people vaccinated is much higher than people at other ages. But that group, because they are elderly, still have a significantly higher chance of ending up in a hospital when compared to a healthy young person that did not get a vaccine.
-Not at all vaccines are created equally. Being vaccinated with two or three doses of moderna/pfizer is a whole different story than a single shot of astrazenica, for example. That in itself does not lead to vaccinated people overtaking non-vaccinated people in the hospitals, but keep in mind the status "vaccinated" is a big variable in itself.
-Unfortunately some of the vaccines offer little protection against omicron. That does not mean vaccines don't work in general, but they are unfortunately not universal and don't guarantee protection for everything that follows. I am confident in saying that without vaccines the numbers now would be significantly worse. In our case it really helped milden the blow of Delta, as our data shows us (The Netherlands).
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But I saw on the news this morning that vaccinated people are making up the majority of hospitalizations. I really don't know what to believe anymore so I frankly am not caring about any of it. It gives me a headache to think about and that's a shame. I genuinely have no idea what the truth is. Other than treating it like the flu and hoping you don't get it and practicing traditional hygiene I'm not sure what else there is to do :(
It can be both. We're at a point now, though, where the details are important, and our media does us a disservice when it comes to that. Roughly 85% of Americans have at least one shot at this point. I don't want to baffle you with numbers, but if you have a population of, say, 100,000, that means 85,000 are vaccinated, and 15,000 are not. If half of all unvaccinated get the COVIDs, that's 7500 people. If even 10% of the vaccinated get sick, that's 8500, MORE than the number of vaccinated. So this is a problem of the unvaccinated, in that their odds are bad to get it, and it's an outsome where the majority of people in hospital are vaccinated.
So this is, perhaps, less a matter of how effective the vaccine is, or anything else medical, and almost a pure problem of probabilities.
Bill, that's a great explanation of the numbers. Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.
-When the majority of the people is vaccinated that group has a larger representation. Not real number but as an example: 1% of 800 (8) vaccinated people is more than 3% of 200 (6) non-vaccinated people, with a three fold difference in chance of hospitalization (which is big).
-On many locations the percentage of elderly people vaccinated is much higher than people at other ages. But that group, because they are elderly, still have a significantly higher chance of ending up in a hospital when compared to a healthy young person that did not get a vaccine.
-Not at all vaccines are created equally. Being vaccinated with two or three doses of moderna/pfizer is a whole different story than a single shot of astrazenica, for example. That in itself does not lead to vaccinated people overtaking non-vaccinated people in the hospitals, but keep in mind the status "vaccinated" is a big variable in itself.
-Unfortunately some of the vaccines offer little protection against omicron. That does not mean vaccines don't work in general, but they are unfortunately not universal and don't guarantee protection for everything that follows. I am confident in saying that without vaccines the numbers now would be significantly worse. In our case it really helped milden the blow of Delta, as our data shows us (The Netherlands).
You make a lot of sense here ErHaO.
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But I saw on the news this morning that vaccinated people are making up the majority of hospitalizations. I really don't know what to believe anymore so I frankly am not caring about any of it. It gives me a headache to think about and that's a shame. I genuinely have no idea what the truth is. Other than treating it like the flu and hoping you don't get it and practicing traditional hygiene I'm not sure what else there is to do :(
Vaccines work.
But there is a variety of reason why this can the case (and will be, if enough people are vaccinated), some of which are:
-When the majority of the people is vaccinated that group has a larger representation. Not real number but as an example: 1% of 800 (8) vaccinated people is more than 3% of 200 (6) non-vaccinated people, with a three fold difference in chance of hospitalization (which is big).
-On many locations the percentage of elderly people vaccinated is much higher than people at other ages. But that group, because they are elderly, still have a significantly higher chance of ending up in a hospital when compared to a healthy young person that did not get a vaccine.
-Not at all vaccines are created equally. Being vaccinated with two or three doses of moderna/pfizer is a whole different story than a single shot of astrazenica, for example. That in itself does not lead to vaccinated people overtaking non-vaccinated people in the hospitals, but keep in mind the status "vaccinated" is a big variable in itself.
-Unfortunately some of the vaccines offer little protection against omicron. That does not mean vaccines don't work in general, but they are unfortunately not universal and don't guarantee protection for everything that follows. I am confident in saying that without vaccines the numbers now would be significantly worse. In our case it really helped milden the blow of Delta, as our data shows us (The Netherlands).
Brilliantly put.
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But I saw on the news this morning that vaccinated people are making up the majority of hospitalizations. I really don't know what to believe anymore so I frankly am not caring about any of it. It gives me a headache to think about and that's a shame. I genuinely have no idea what the truth is. Other than treating it like the flu and hoping you don't get it and practicing traditional hygiene I'm not sure what else there is to do :(
Vaccines work.
But there is a variety of reason why this can the case (and will be, if enough people are vaccinated), some of which are:
-When the majority of the people is vaccinated that group has a larger representation. Not real number but as an example: 1% of 800 (8) vaccinated people is more than 3% of 200 (6) non-vaccinated people, with a three fold difference in chance of hospitalization (which is big).
-On many locations the percentage of elderly people vaccinated is much higher than people at other ages. But that group, because they are elderly, still have a significantly higher chance of ending up in a hospital when compared to a healthy young person that did not get a vaccine.
-Not at all vaccines are created equally. Being vaccinated with two or three doses of moderna/pfizer is a whole different story than a single shot of astrazenica, for example. That in itself does not lead to vaccinated people overtaking non-vaccinated people in the hospitals, but keep in mind the status "vaccinated" is a big variable in itself.
-Unfortunately some of the vaccines offer little protection against omicron. That does not mean vaccines don't work in general, but they are unfortunately not universal and don't guarantee protection for everything that follows. I am confident in saying that without vaccines the numbers now would be significantly worse. In our case it really helped milden the blow of Delta, as our data shows us (The Netherlands).
Another thing I thought about is, how many unvaccinated are voluntarily testing?
That big push of people testing prior to their holiday get-togethers, people saying "better safe than sorry" to the pediatrician when they ask if they want their child tested, people who have a trip coming up and test beforehand to be sure... yeah, I doubt people who've declined the vaccine are doing that. Maybe a few, sure. And mandatory testing probably makes up most of the numbers we see. But when it comes to voluntary testing, the people doing it would slant heavily towards the people who were isolating, masking, vaccinating, and so on... The people who have been doing none of that aren't going to be showing up as positives unless they are sick, hospitalized, or forced to take a test. It's a matter of the group who are listening to the CDC (for whatever that's worth) in all the other ways thus far being better at reporting than the group who've merely put up with the bare minimum requirements and would never do anything in excess of those if they didn't absolutely have to.
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Here's a great example of vaccination in my family and how it's affecting our exposure to covid.
Brother and sister in law are unvaccinated (Brother in law had one J&J shot, was due to get his second this week). Sister in law refused to get vaccinated.
- Brother in law had symptoms just like the flu - positive for covid, fever, body aches, chills, nasal congestion.
- Sister in law has monster headaches and nausea so far. Haven't heard from them this morning to see if she's doing any better or worse. She tested positive yesterday, but was negative on a home test on Monday.
- Their 14 year old son is asypmtomaic so far.
My family
- Daughter had two child doses of Pfizer vaccine. She had a fever that got as high as 100.4, maybe 100.9 before bedtime. It went away within 24 hours. She basically has a cold right now - sneezing, sniffling. Barely coughing.
- Wife and I have 3 doses of Pfizer (two originals, plus a booster). Each of us has just felt slightly woozy and "off." I have minor sniffles, but not enough to even say I have a cold. We each have some headaches and tiredness, but it's not keeping us from doing our jobs, housework, and taking care of the kids. It feels like when we got our boosters, where we were just tired and woozy as side effects. To get the same reaction from actual exposure to the virus means that the vaccine is doing exactly what it should be doing.
My brother and sister in law are getting hit harder by covid than my wife and I. It's barely affecting us at all, and each of them is feeling pretty sick. Survivable, yes. But they are sick enough to miss work, sick enough to be stuck in bed, and out of commission. Yesterday, my wife and I tested negative, even though we were starting to feel symptoms. We'll probably take another home test tomorrow. if it's still negative, than the vaccine is keeping our viral presence so low that it doesn't register on a test and we're likely not very contagious.
This is on par with what medical experts are saying - two doses of an mRNA vaccine and you'll feel sick, but won't end up in bed for days or in the hospital (like my daughter). Three doses of an mRNA vaccine and this strain of the virus barely even fazes you. See below and quote.
https://wgntv.com/news/coronavirus/how-long-after-contracting-covid-19-can-i-get-it-again-and-other-reinfection-questions-answered/?fbclid=IwAR1rBLiBN1kDb2KoXWCHq9oE6Jebv0sSMeZhSkmYvpqm7o7UltkO-20EWZA
“My impression is that we have more breakthrough infections in people who have their first two shots but not the booster. The one thing that’s always extremely important — people sometimes go, ‘Well if I’m going to get reinfected, if I’m going to have a breakthrough infection, why should I get vaccinated?’ The real issue is, if you have a breakthrough infection, it’s likely to be very mild. We have seen breakthrough infections, but they tend to be something that resembles a minor cold, a slight increase in allergies. We have people who get sicker, but they rarely end up in the hospital.”
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This is on par with what medical experts are saying - two doses of an mRNA vaccine and you'll feel sick, but won't end up in bed for days or in the hospital (like my daughter). Three doses of an mRNA vaccine and this strain of the virus barely even fazes you. See below and quote.
I can back that up. My daughter had 2 Moderna doses and tested positive on New Years Day. She felt sick for several days, but spent most of it in bed sleeping. She lost her taste and smell and still does not have them back, otherwise, she feels fine now.
Me, my wife and my son are all boostered (wife and I all Moderna, son all Pfizer) and none of us got sick. Well, that we know of.
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“My impression is that we have more breakthrough infections in people who have their first two shots but not the booster. The one thing that’s always extremely important — people sometimes go, ‘Well if I’m going to get reinfected, if I’m going to have a breakthrough infection, why should I get vaccinated?’ The real issue is, if you have a breakthrough infection, it’s likely to be very mild. We have seen breakthrough infections, but they tend to be something that resembles a minor cold, a slight increase in allergies. We have people who get sicker, but they rarely end up in the hospital.”
Not sure why some people don't seem to get this. It isn't complicated at all.
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“My impression is that we have more breakthrough infections in people who have their first two shots but not the booster. The one thing that’s always extremely important — people sometimes go, ‘Well if I’m going to get reinfected, if I’m going to have a breakthrough infection, why should I get vaccinated?’ The real issue is, if you have a breakthrough infection, it’s likely to be very mild. We have seen breakthrough infections, but they tend to be something that resembles a minor cold, a slight increase in allergies. We have people who get sicker, but they rarely end up in the hospital.”
Not sure why some people don't seem to get this. It isn't complicated at all.
Because people are easily influenced by social media
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Because people are easily influenced by social media
And a former President that felt it was more important to show that he kicked the viruses' ass without a vaccine, rather than promote receiving a vaccine. People really seem to think it's a badge of honor to have survived covid, despite spending weeks in the hospital. I don't get that kind of thinking at all.
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Because people are easily influenced by social media
And a former President that felt it was more important to show that he kicked the viruses' ass without a vaccine, rather than promote receiving a vaccine. People really seem to think it's a badge of honor to have survived covid, despite spending weeks in the hospital. I don't get that kind of thinking at all.
It was happening with or without the former President. As is their right, some people just aren't willing to take that risk. I have someone in my family that is as far from a Trump supporter as you can get, but is petrified of the vaccine and only got it for one very specific reason (and her daughter still hasn't and has no plans to).
We live in a victim society; it's not what we do, it's what's done to us. Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you. Putting the needle in your arm is AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, whereas waiting for COVID is a passive one.
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Because people are easily influenced by social media
And a former President that felt it was more important to show that he kicked the viruses' ass without a vaccine, rather than promote receiving a vaccine. People really seem to think it's a badge of honor to have survived covid, despite spending weeks in the hospital. I don't get that kind of thinking at all.
It was happening with or without the former President. As is their right, some people just aren't willing to take that risk. I have someone in my family that is as far from a Trump supporter as you can get, but is petrified of the vaccine and only got it for one very specific reason (and her daughter still hasn't and has no plans to).
We live in a victim society; it's not what we do, it's what's done to us. Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you. Putting the needle in your arm is AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, whereas waiting for COVID is a passive one.
You're right. I hold him accountable (or at least co-accountable) for a lot, but I think his effect on the anti-COVID-vaxxers is minimal at best. After all, HE got vaccinated.
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Because people are easily influenced by social media
And a former President that felt it was more important to show that he kicked the viruses' ass without a vaccine, rather than promote receiving a vaccine. People really seem to think it's a badge of honor to have survived covid, despite spending weeks in the hospital. I don't get that kind of thinking at all.
It was happening with or without the former President. As is their right, some people just aren't willing to take that risk. I have someone in my family that is as far from a Trump supporter as you can get, but is petrified of the vaccine and only got it for one very specific reason (and her daughter still hasn't and has no plans to).
We live in a victim society; it's not what we do, it's what's done to us. Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you. Putting the needle in your arm is AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, whereas waiting for COVID is a passive one.
You're right. I hold him accountable (or at least co-accountable) for a lot, but I think his effect on the anti-COVID-vaxxers is minimal at best. After all, HE got vaccinated.
I agree with all of this, but I do hold him accountable for messaging on vaccines - he waited until he was out of office to promote them. When he contracted covid, we got evasive answers from the doctors (understandable, for national security reasons, but also laughable, knowing his position on covid) and a photo op of him visibly huffing and puffing on the White House steps. He was vaccinated in secret, off-camera, and never made public statements about the benefit of the vaccine to his health, or to the public, at the time.
From my own personal experience, my county is very red. His supporters around me, including my own family members, lauded Operation Warp Speed and rushing vaccine production through in 2020. But once he was out of office and the vaccines were available under a new administration, the same people started distrusting and criticizing the vaccines for being produced too quickly and being ineffective.
It all ties together - the messaging about covid, the messaging about vaccines. It was fumbled from the start and some individuals' fears of the vaccines may have been reduced, had he been honest about them. I think the projection of machismo, the idea that a vaccine isn't needed and our immune systems can handle covid, all came from that single, former President and his victory photo op after getting out of Walter Reed.
When the Rock comes out and says that covid kicked his own healthy, physically fit ass, yet a 75 year old, generally unhealthy President says otherwise....the messaging is severely wrong.
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Because people are easily influenced by social media
And a former President that felt it was more important to show that he kicked the viruses' ass without a vaccine, rather than promote receiving a vaccine. People really seem to think it's a badge of honor to have survived covid, despite spending weeks in the hospital. I don't get that kind of thinking at all.
It was happening with or without the former President. As is their right, some people just aren't willing to take that risk. I have someone in my family that is as far from a Trump supporter as you can get, but is petrified of the vaccine and only got it for one very specific reason (and her daughter still hasn't and has no plans to).
We live in a victim society; it's not what we do, it's what's done to us. Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you. Putting the needle in your arm is AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, whereas waiting for COVID is a passive one.
You're right. I hold him accountable (or at least co-accountable) for a lot, but I think his effect on the anti-COVID-vaxxers is minimal at best. After all, HE got vaccinated.
I wholly disagree. I think Trump COULD have had a positive impact towards the hesitant.. Before COVID, anti-vaxx'rs were largely left wing'rs subscribing to the notion that vaccines cause autism. Suddenly under a global pandemic, anti-vax became a privacy/choice issue.
Now that I type that, I sincerely wonder how much of the Left became pro-vaccine simply because Trump was a detractor.
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Trump planted a seed of doubt for those wavering about getting a vaccine when available. That doubt lead to those to read the fox hole known as the Internet.
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Respect, because we're all entitled to our observations, and all are equally valid (or invalid, as the case may be), but I think some of you are severely - and selectively - overplaying the messaging aspect of this. As if ONLY the Trump supporters are anti-vax, and as if they are sitting in front of a screen salivating and staring off into space waiting for the next platform from their supreme leader. Again, I know three people who are essentially anti-vax, and only one nominally supports Trump, and he's FAR from the minions storming the Capital.
This probably belongs in P/R, but the other aspect is, the selectivity. This is PRECISELY, at least in part, what Jake Angeli is talking about in that Qanon interview. He talks at length about the continual bombardment from the media, including managing the buzzwords used (anyone remember any of my writing about the consistent use/abuse of the word "terrified" when talking about Trump or his policies during his term?) and it's effect on those of both sides of the aisle. Now, I can see being selective when the circumstances are different - i.e. one man, and a scorned man at that, versus the perpetual and constant 24/7 barrage from the entire Fourth Estate (with a few exceptions) - but I guess I don't follow how THIS message is attributable to one man, but ALL the other dangerous messages coming from other public figures/politicians/candidates/media in the public eye are somehow benign and harmless.
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Trump only has influence over his own following. There are many people who are not for Trump or for Biden who are not vaccinated.
People are not that dumb, and are not stupid. People have their own minds and are capable of thinking for themselves and coming to their own conclusions. People were reading about conspiracies way before Trump felt like running, people theorized about conspiracies way before America became a Nation.
You could blame others for being an influence. But as long as humans are capable of thinking for themselves and coming to their own conclusions of the outcomes, people will continue to decide for themselves. Regardless of what anyone else thinks and concludes.
This is a human trait that no other can control but the self.
One example of such behavior and mindset is getting someone to get help in treatment for alcoholism or other addiction, people can try and get them to go, and they will, but it's up to them to want to make that change for themselves. It's their own decision to make, to come to the conclusions of the outcomes and possibly make that change for themselves.
I know plenty of people who have passed away due to these addictions. I, as one man and as a friend, can only do so much.
If I were to place blame on something for people dying. I blame how our entire lifestyle and system of life we live is not as beneficial as it may seem. It's very detrimental and we are now only realizing or seeing these outcomes play out with how unhealthy we are physically and mentally. Before Covid, were we healthy? That's a big, No. Many of us have health complications that we need to take pills to ease the pain, or to ease the symptoms for. The hospitals were already struggling, especially with people not donating organs that people need. Now we have blood donation shortages, so the people that need the blood supply can't get it. We could force organ and blood donation for the health and betterment of society by having organs and blood available for those that need another heart or a blood transfusion due to a loss of blood. But we can't, due to peoples beliefs.
There's lots of things you can place blame for, but in the end, it's all up to the self, the person, to want to make that change and become healthier or continue to live the lifestyle that is causing more hardships on their overall health.
Will you place the blame on the other, or will you place blame on the self? Will you forgive yourself, and will you forgive the other?
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Respect, because we're all entitled to our observations, and all are equally valid (or invalid, as the case may be), but I think some of you are severely - and selectively - overplaying the messaging aspect of this. As if ONLY the Trump supporters are anti-vax, and as if they are sitting in front of a screen salivating and staring off into space waiting for the next platform from their supreme leader. Again, I know three people who are essentially anti-vax, and only one nominally supports Trump, and he's FAR from the minions storming the Capital.
This probably belongs in P/R, but the other aspect is, the selectivity. This is PRECISELY, at least in part, what Jake Angeli is talking about in that Qanon interview. He talks at length about the continual bombardment from the media, including managing the buzzwords used (anyone remember any of my writing about the consistent use/abuse of the word "terrified" when talking about Trump or his policies during his term?) and it's effect on those of both sides of the aisle. Now, I can see being selective when the circumstances are different - i.e. one man, and a scorned man at that, versus the perpetual and constant 24/7 barrage from the entire Fourth Estate (with a few exceptions) - but I guess I don't follow how THIS message is attributable to one man, but ALL the other dangerous messages coming from other public figures/politicians/candidates/media in the public eye are somehow benign and harmless.
All completely fair points - especially the bolded ones. I didn't mean to imply it was JUST Trump that created the amount of anti-vax rhetoric and resistance, but I wasn't as prepared as Hef to say that he didn't play a meaningful role.
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Trump only has influence over his own following. There are many people who are not for Trump or for Biden who are not vaccinated.
I think you're being naïve here Ben. There are a lot of people out there that don't follow politics and party lines who were unsure and can be swayed about the vaccine and the virus.
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Trump only has influence over his own following. There are many people who are not for Trump or for Biden who are not vaccinated.
I think you're being naïve here Ben. There are a lot of people out there that don't follow politics and party lines who were unsure and can be swayed about the vaccine and the virus.
You got the exact point. Politics isn't the only thing at play into why people are choosing to be unvaccinated.
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
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It's probably too early to feel positive about this, but the last few days in NJ cases seemed to have plateaued. It's still a very high number, but if this trend continues, we may see a sharp decline if what some experts have predicted becomes true. And it certainly feels like omicron just blew through most people in the state so it kind of feels legit too from personal experience. We will see though.
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Trump only has influence over his own following. There are many people who are not for Trump or for Biden who are not vaccinated.
I think you're being naïve here Ben. There are a lot of people out there that don't follow politics and party lines who were unsure and can be swayed about the vaccine and the virus.
You got the exact point. Politics isn't the only thing at play into why people are choosing to be unvaccinated.
Sure, the uneducated.
America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
well...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2022/01/08/nurse-says-viagra-saved-her-from-severe-covid-19-coronavirus-infection/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2022/01/08/nurse-says-viagra-saved-her-from-severe-covid-19-coronavirus-infection/)
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It's probably too early to feel positive about this, but the last few days in NJ cases seemed to have plateaued. It's still a very high number, but if this trend continues, we may see a sharp decline if what some experts have predicted becomes true. And it certainly feels like omicron just blew through most people in the state so it kind of feels legit too from personal experience. We will see though.
My worry is that this is more indicative of the fact testing capacity has just made people say fuckit about getting a test. I've personally heard of no less than a dozen people who are just operating under the assumption they have it, because they either A) can't get a test, or B) *believe* they can't get a test so it just ain't worth trying.
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Guy pounded out the virus out of her. AMIRITE?!
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
well...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2022/01/08/nurse-says-viagra-saved-her-from-severe-covid-19-coronavirus-infection/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2022/01/08/nurse-says-viagra-saved-her-from-severe-covid-19-coronavirus-infection/)
"Indeed, Dr. Wachter, anything is possible. But is there any hard evidence that Viagra, otherwise known as sildenafil, can serve as a treatment for severe Covid-19?"
Why yes dear reporter, there very much is *hard* evidence.
That article reads like it's from The Onion or Hardtimes.
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Also by Forbes....
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ajherrington/2022/01/11/study-finds-cannabis-compounds-prevent-infection-by-covid-19-virus/?sh=351b25191753
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It's probably too early to feel positive about this, but the last few days in NJ cases seemed to have plateaued. It's still a very high number, but if this trend continues, we may see a sharp decline if what some experts have predicted becomes true. And it certainly feels like omicron just blew through most people in the state so it kind of feels legit too from personal experience. We will see though.
My worry is that this is more indicative of the fact testing capacity has just made people say fuckit about getting a test. I've personally heard of no less than a dozen people who are just operating under the assumption they have it, because they either A) can't get a test, or B) *believe* they can't get a test so it just ain't worth trying.
But that is not new. It's been that way for a month at least in terms of lack of tests available and the "fuck it" attitude has been here since the beginning. My anti-vax friend believes he had covid a few weeks ago but never got tested for example (but it seems likely since his daughter was tested positive last week). Also the "two month" timeline from South Africa could be similar. I think this will last more than 2 months here, but it may not be too much longer. Omicron was first detected in NJ around December 4th. Also, NJ as a whole is more vaxxed and seems to follow guidelines a bit more than a lot of the rest of the US so it's really hard for me to pin the data on those factors. It's possible though. Like I said, it's way too early to be happy about the data, but it is encouraging if it starts to hold true.
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
So much this... Aside from tobacco, thwre is only one other proven class a carcinogen.. Alcohol... but it gets such a blatant, hypocritical pass in all the fucking woo circles. They make up all sorts of bullshit to let booze slide around their egotistical privelaged views.
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
So much this... Aside from tobacco, thwre is only one other proven class a carcinogen.. Alcohol... but it gets such a blatant, hypocritical pass in all the fucking woo circles. They make up all sorts of bullshit to let booze slide around their egotistical privelaged views.
https://www.verywellmind.com/the-cost-of-excessive-alcohol-use-in-the-u-s-67482
The quickest way to reduce these costs, says the CDC, would be to reduce binge drinking (defined as four or more drinks per occasion for women or five or more for men).2
To this end, the researchers suggested using several evidence-based strategies to reduce the impact of drinking on society:
Increasing the price of alcohol to discourage use, particularly among the young
Regulating the number and location of sites where alcohol is sold
Holding alcohol retailers liable for injuries or damages caused by intoxicated or underage customers
Avoiding the commercialization of state-controlled alcohol sales
While many of the suggestions would meet stiff opposition from government and industry, they do highlight that cost and access remain major drivers of widespread alcohol misuse in the U.S. Unless measures are taken to actively discourage drinking, says the CDC, it will be society at large that will end up paying.
It would be fascinating to take these Covid measures and apply them to Alcohol, since Society will be paying the price if measures are not taken to reduce the impact of drinking on society, and it will be beneficial for society.
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
So much this... Aside from tobacco, thwre is only one other proven class a carcinogen.. Alcohol... but it gets such a blatant, hypocritical pass in all the fucking woo circles. They make up all sorts of bullshit to let booze slide around their egotistical privelaged views.
Well, they got the Pot crowd now to join them.
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
So much this... Aside from tobacco, thwre is only one other proven class a carcinogen.. Alcohol... but it gets such a blatant, hypocritical pass in all the fucking woo circles. They make up all sorts of bullshit to let booze slide around their egotistical privelaged views.
Well, they got the Pot crowd now to join them.
Wouldn't that also be relevant for a Stripper? It's their body and they can do whatever they want with their body, even if it's flaunting it for horny men for money.
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Er...no.
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
So much this... Aside from tobacco, thwre is only one other proven class a carcinogen.. Alcohol... but it gets such a blatant, hypocritical pass in all the fucking woo circles. They make up all sorts of bullshit to let booze slide around their egotistical privelaged views.
Well, they got the Pot crowd now to join them.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-12/cannabis-compounds-prevented-covid-infection-in-laboratory-study (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-12/cannabis-compounds-prevented-covid-infection-in-laboratory-study)
Another one of my Dr friends, who is also licensed to prescribe medical marijuana in Florida, has been saying this for awhile that it could actually be good for covid. Clearly it didn't help me :rollin
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Dr. Nick or Dt. Spaceman?
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
So much this... Aside from tobacco, thwre is only one other proven class a carcinogen.. Alcohol... but it gets such a blatant, hypocritical pass in all the fucking woo circles. They make up all sorts of bullshit to let booze slide around their egotistical privelaged views.
Well, they got the Pot crowd now to join them.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-12/cannabis-compounds-prevented-covid-infection-in-laboratory-study (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-12/cannabis-compounds-prevented-covid-infection-in-laboratory-study)
Another one of my Dr friends, who is also licensed to prescribe medical marijuana in Florida, has been saying this for awhile that it could actually be good for covid. Clearly it didn't help me :rollin
I posted that earlier from Forbes.
It would be neat if they found those who have longer use of cannabis, have more of these compounds in their system. :corn
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It's probably too early to feel positive about this, but the last few days in NJ cases seemed to have plateaued. It's still a very high number, but if this trend continues, we may see a sharp decline if what some experts have predicted becomes true. And it certainly feels like omicron just blew through most people in the state so it kind of feels legit too from personal experience. We will see though.
My worry is that this is more indicative of the fact testing capacity has just made people say fuckit about getting a test. I've personally heard of no less than a dozen people who are just operating under the assumption they have it, because they either A) can't get a test, or B) *believe* they can't get a test so it just ain't worth trying.
The link should be easy to find, but the New York Times today is cautiously suggesting it's a real plateau. They analyze wastewater for certain things, and a study in Boston shows the presence of the COVID virus in wastewater has dropped about 40% since January 1. That has been a harbinger of good things in the past vis-a-vis COVID.
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
So much this... Aside from tobacco, thwre is only one other proven class a carcinogen.. Alcohol... but it gets such a blatant, hypocritical pass in all the fucking woo circles. They make up all sorts of bullshit to let booze slide around their egotistical privelaged views.
I mean this in the nicest possible way, friend to friends, but are any of you REALLY that shocked that a member of the human species (or a subgroup of that species) is hypocritical? We can point to any economic class, any racial class, any religious class, virtually any breakdown you want to use, and find an example of head-shaking hypocrisy. It's certainly worth it to note, but unless we're really willing to let our OWN hypocrisies go (mine included), it's sort of a futile exercise.
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
So much this... Aside from tobacco, thwre is only one other proven class a carcinogen.. Alcohol... but it gets such a blatant, hypocritical pass in all the fucking woo circles. They make up all sorts of bullshit to let booze slide around their egotistical privelaged views.
https://www.verywellmind.com/the-cost-of-excessive-alcohol-use-in-the-u-s-67482
The quickest way to reduce these costs, says the CDC, would be to reduce binge drinking (defined as four or more drinks per occasion for women or five or more for men).2
To this end, the researchers suggested using several evidence-based strategies to reduce the impact of drinking on society:
Increasing the price of alcohol to discourage use, particularly among the young
Regulating the number and location of sites where alcohol is sold
Holding alcohol retailers liable for injuries or damages caused by intoxicated or underage customers
Avoiding the commercialization of state-controlled alcohol sales
While many of the suggestions would meet stiff opposition from government and industry, they do highlight that cost and access remain major drivers of widespread alcohol misuse in the U.S. Unless measures are taken to actively discourage drinking, says the CDC, it will be society at large that will end up paying.
It would be fascinating to take these Covid measures and apply them to Alcohol, since Society will be paying the price if measures are not taken to reduce the impact of drinking on society, and it will be beneficial for society.
Take my vodka and/or red wine away from me, and I'ma going all
(https://i.imgur.com/AzABFAQ.jpg)
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
So much this... Aside from tobacco, thwre is only one other proven class a carcinogen.. Alcohol... but it gets such a blatant, hypocritical pass in all the fucking woo circles. They make up all sorts of bullshit to let booze slide around their egotistical privelaged views.
Well, they got the Pot crowd now to join them.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-12/cannabis-compounds-prevented-covid-infection-in-laboratory-study (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-12/cannabis-compounds-prevented-covid-infection-in-laboratory-study)
Another one of my Dr friends, who is also licensed to prescribe medical marijuana in Florida, has been saying this for awhile that it could actually be good for covid. Clearly it didn't help me :rollin
I'm going to have to increase my daily intake...just to be safe....
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
So much this... Aside from tobacco, thwre is only one other proven class a carcinogen.. Alcohol... but it gets such a blatant, hypocritical pass in all the fucking woo circles. They make up all sorts of bullshit to let booze slide around their egotistical privelaged views.
Well, they got the Pot crowd now to join them.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-12/cannabis-compounds-prevented-covid-infection-in-laboratory-study (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-12/cannabis-compounds-prevented-covid-infection-in-laboratory-study)
Another one of my Dr friends, who is also licensed to prescribe medical marijuana in Florida, has been saying this for awhile that it could actually be good for covid. Clearly it didn't help me :rollin
I'm going to have to increase my daily intake...just to be safe....
I'm almost certain that the compound they're referring to is solely found in hemp, sadly.
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
So much this... Aside from tobacco, thwre is only one other proven class a carcinogen.. Alcohol... but it gets such a blatant, hypocritical pass in all the fucking woo circles. They make up all sorts of bullshit to let booze slide around their egotistical privelaged views.
I mean this in the nicest possible way, friend to friends, but are any of you REALLY that shocked that a member of the human species (or a subgroup of that species) is hypocritical? We can point to any economic class, any racial class, any religious class, virtually any breakdown you want to use, and find an example of head-shaking hypocrisy. It's certainly worth it to note, but unless we're really willing to let our OWN hypocrisies go (mine included), it's sort of a futile exercise.
Funny, before I fell asleep last night and scrolling through tiktok I got a video of someone showing these graphs of covid found in the sewege of Boston and I had meant to find the data this morning to share here as some more reasons that maybe this is a legit plateau.
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
So much this... Aside from tobacco, thwre is only one other proven class a carcinogen.. Alcohol... but it gets such a blatant, hypocritical pass in all the fucking woo circles. They make up all sorts of bullshit to let booze slide around their egotistical privelaged views.
https://www.verywellmind.com/the-cost-of-excessive-alcohol-use-in-the-u-s-67482
The quickest way to reduce these costs, says the CDC, would be to reduce binge drinking (defined as four or more drinks per occasion for women or five or more for men).2
To this end, the researchers suggested using several evidence-based strategies to reduce the impact of drinking on society:
Increasing the price of alcohol to discourage use, particularly among the young
Regulating the number and location of sites where alcohol is sold
Holding alcohol retailers liable for injuries or damages caused by intoxicated or underage customers
Avoiding the commercialization of state-controlled alcohol sales
While many of the suggestions would meet stiff opposition from government and industry, they do highlight that cost and access remain major drivers of widespread alcohol misuse in the U.S. Unless measures are taken to actively discourage drinking, says the CDC, it will be society at large that will end up paying.
It would be fascinating to take these Covid measures and apply them to Alcohol, since Society will be paying the price if measures are not taken to reduce the impact of drinking on society, and it will be beneficial for society.
Take my vodka and/or red wine away from me, and I'ma going all
(https://i.imgur.com/AzABFAQ.jpg)
:rollin :rollin
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America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies. Thinking with one head but not the other.
Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either. They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet... :facepalm:
So much this... Aside from tobacco, thwre is only one other proven class a carcinogen.. Alcohol... but it gets such a blatant, hypocritical pass in all the fucking woo circles. They make up all sorts of bullshit to let booze slide around their egotistical privelaged views.
I mean this in the nicest possible way, friend to friends, but are any of you REALLY that shocked that a member of the human species (or a subgroup of that species) is hypocritical? We can point to any economic class, any racial class, any religious class, virtually any breakdown you want to use, and find an example of head-shaking hypocrisy. It's certainly worth it to note, but unless we're really willing to let our OWN hypocrisies go (mine included), it's sort of a futile exercise.
Oh I'm definitely not surprised or shocked. We're all fully capable of bending reality to our own preconceptions, but the way it's consistently done with alcohol and health issues is fucking hysterical
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My Dad and his common law wife tested positive today. Which is weird because they NEVER go anywhere. I asked them how they thought they got it and he told me they decided to go out to dinner last Friday night.....must have been then. They're both fully vaccinated and he says that it's really just feeling like a cold....but she is taking it a bit harder. He's 65...she's 68. Just have to hope it stays mild symptoms.
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Hope they feel better Gary, but jeez, talk about bad luck.
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Hope they feel better Gary, but jeez, talk about bad luck.
No kidding. They'll go full recluse after this. To be fair, they're both retired and live in the country in a pretty secluded area.....literally their house overlooks a small river. It's pretty peaceful. Only bummer part is that it's an hour and a half away from me so I don't get to see him as much as I'd like.
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Hope they recover quickly Gary, but that is pretty crazy how they caught it so easily for people who don't go out much. Bad luck I guess, but man these days it just seems like covid is in the air no matter where you go.
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Gary, that's crazy; one excursion... but that's the unpredictability of these types of viruses. I certainly hope they are okay, and can weather the storm quickly. Fingers crossed.
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Morning report says that Santa Clara county (Silicon Valley basically) wastewater reports are starting to show a downward trend in coronavirus. I could've sworn I heard a similar thing from Boston yesterday, so hopefully predictions of omicron being quick are coming to fruition.
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Morning report says that Santa Clara county (Silicon Valley basically) wastewater reports are starting to show a downward trend in coronavirus. I could've sworn I heard a similar thing from Boston yesterday, so hopefully predictions of omicron being quick are coming to fruition.
I've always said my shit isn't worth much. How wrong I was.
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Morning report says that Santa Clara county (Silicon Valley basically) wastewater reports are starting to show a downward trend in coronavirus. I could've sworn I heard a similar thing from Boston yesterday, so hopefully predictions of omicron being quick are coming to fruition.
Somewhere here I posted that the New York Times reported that about Boston. I'm going to proudly (and arrogantly) assume that's where you heard it. :) :) :)
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Morning report says that Santa Clara county (Silicon Valley basically) wastewater reports are starting to show a downward trend in coronavirus. I could've sworn I heard a similar thing from Boston yesterday, so hopefully predictions of omicron being quick are coming to fruition.
Somewhere here I posted that the New York Times reported that about Boston. I'm going to proudly (and arrogantly) assume that's where you heard it. :) :) :)
Sure, you roll with that :p :biggrin:
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I don't even know where to post this, but since it was born because of Covid I'll just throw in here.
https://youtu.be/RrOzY86YcEM?t=208
This is a professor's introduction to his class. I know is long but is it worth watching every second of it.
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Morning report says that Santa Clara county (Silicon Valley basically) wastewater reports are starting to show a downward trend in coronavirus. I could've sworn I heard a similar thing from Boston yesterday, so hopefully predictions of omicron being quick are coming to fruition.
Indeed: https://www.wbur.org/news/2022/01/12/wastewater-covid-level-decline-new-data
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I don't even know where to post this, but since it was born because of Covid I'll just throw in here.
https://youtu.be/RrOzY86YcEM?t=208
This is a professor's introduction to his class. I know is long but is it worth watching every second of it.
Well...good example of why tenure is a really stupid, outdated concept anyway. :dunno: What a disgrace.
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Got quite the mouth on him that guy. Whatever point he was making (I think I just about got it on the 2nd pass) was mostly lost on me in the dreadful delivery. I swear more than most in my writing but even for me that was ridiculously undisciplined and over the top.
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I think he was auditioning for Deadwood.
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Swearing is an art form, and that dude doesn't have it.
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Lonestar is right. Swearing is an artform.
Best swearers:
Sam Elliott
James Gandolfini
Billy Bob Thornton
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Well, just got a PCR result back, and apparently I had it last week.
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Lonestar is right. Swearing is an artform.
Best swearers:
Sam Elliott
James Gandolfini
Billy Bob Thornton
I would throw Joe Pesci and Samuel L. Jackson on that list as well.
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Lonestar is right. Swearing is an artform.
Best swearers:
Sam Elliott
James Gandolfini
Billy Bob Thornton
I would throw Joe Pesci and Samuel L. Jackson on that list as well.
And the sum population of Ireland and Scotland
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Not sure I've ever heard James Gandolfini or Billy Bob Thornton ever utter a single line that I can remember.
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Not sure I've ever heard James Gandolfini or Billy Bob Thornton ever utter a single line that I can remember.
Hard to do that when you've been buried in a time capsule for decades.
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:rollin
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:lol :lol
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Not sure I've ever heard James Gandolfini or Billy Bob Thornton ever utter a single line that I can remember.
Behold, the greatest "SHUT THE FUCK UP!" in television history:
https://youtu.be/hnLnvU8DjBY?t=98
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That's a quality STFU.
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Got my third Moderna dose yesterday, it was the booster so it was half a dose.
The arm moderately hurts, and my head is heavy and I feel weak and groggy, but no fever, last time I was really knocked out.
Uh well, with a full fever last time around I woke up the next day as if nothing happened, hopefully tomorrow it's gonna be the same and I will be ok.
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Lonestar is right. Swearing is an artform.
Best swearers:
Sam Elliott
James Gandolfini
Billy Bob Thornton
I would throw Joe Pesci and Samuel L. Jackson on that list as well.
And the sum population of Ireland and Scotland
Ringo Starr would be on my list as well. "Fook". :) :)
I didn't put Pesci and Jackson on my list only because they're sort of the popular choices. They are almost memes at this point. Not to say they aren't great, but I went with more obscure choices on purpose.
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I'm sure some of this is due to a holiday weekend, but covid cases are dropping just as sharply as they inclined locally here. The virus literally burned through everyone so quickly. Going to Florida on Friday with all my siblings, everyone's recovered from covid in the crew heading down. So crazy how quickly this wave impacted basically everyone I know and seems to be coming to an end, for now.
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I'm sure some of this is due to a holiday weekend, but covid cases are dropping just as sharply as they inclined locally here. The virus literally burned through everyone so quickly. Going to Florida on Friday with all my siblings, everyone's recovered from covid in the crew heading down. So crazy how quickly this wave impacted basically everyone I know and seems to be coming to an end, for now.
Right, and, to go back to a point that was brought up earlier in this thread - The experts got it wrong again by not realizing that something that spread so rapidly would burn through just as quickly. Why go back and research everything the experts got wrong when if you just wait even a few days they'll screw up again.
I'm sure there are people who research COVID, do not agree with me, but try to do work that is rigorous and ethical. At least in the US, they are not the ones with publicity and decision making power.
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Been over a week since I had first symptoms, and still have a lingering (if weak) cough, and still feel more lethargic than normal. Bit of a bugger, this.
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Been over a week since I had first symptoms, and still have a lingering (if weak) cough, and still feel more lethargic than normal. Bit of a bugger, this.
My son is still not quite right. He's mostly good, but I'd say about 85%. He's been tiring more easily than usual, and has remained congested despite vast improvement of the worst symptoms. This is going on day 18 or so now.
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Been over a week since I had first symptoms, and still have a lingering (if weak) cough, and still feel more lethargic than normal. Bit of a bugger, this.
Yeah, the lingering cough and fatigue is something I'm finally mostly over. That just lingers for awhile with basically every I know who got covid recently.
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I'm sure some of this is due to a holiday weekend, but covid cases are dropping just as sharply as they inclined locally here. The virus literally burned through everyone so quickly. Going to Florida on Friday with all my siblings, everyone's recovered from covid in the crew heading down. So crazy how quickly this wave impacted basically everyone I know and seems to be coming to an end, for now.
I'd say not the get too carried away...Omicron seems to be past peak in NY, NJ & FL (but still on the upswing everywhere else_...BUT even in those three places, the rates are still like 3-4x what they were at the peak of any previous wave. The idea that this has somehow blown over is very, very wrong.
Right, and, to go back to a point that was brought up earlier in this thread - The experts got it wrong again by not realizing that something that spread so rapidly would burn through just as quickly. Why go back and research everything the experts got wrong when if you just wait even a few days they'll screw up again.
:\
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I'm sure some of this is due to a holiday weekend, but covid cases are dropping just as sharply as they inclined locally here. The virus literally burned through everyone so quickly. Going to Florida on Friday with all my siblings, everyone's recovered from covid in the crew heading down. So crazy how quickly this wave impacted basically everyone I know and seems to be coming to an end, for now.
I'd say not the get too carried away...Omicron seems to be past peak in NY, NJ & FL (but still on the upswing everywhere else_...BUT even in those three places, the rates are still like 3-4x what they were at the peak of any previous wave. The idea that this has somehow blown over is very, very wrong.
Right, and, to go back to a point that was brought up earlier in this thread - The experts got it wrong again by not realizing that something that spread so rapidly would burn through just as quickly. Why go back and research everything the experts got wrong when if you just wait even a few days they'll screw up again.
:\
- Seven day moving average of new cases in the US is down. I guess *maybe* it's possible that those three states are so influential on the numbers that they push the overall rate down? But just scanning through a few states I see the same trend - https://graphics.reuters.com/HEALTH-CORONAVIRUS/USA-TRENDS/dgkvlgkrkpb/
- The case count is 3-4x, but the hospitalization rate is not. The amount of deaths is only about half what was seen during the winter wave last year. I don't know why case count is still used as the metric for measuring severity. It does not accurately capture how much damage is actually being done. The death count is far more useful and no where near the worst we've seen
- Just this morning I saw that the Virginia Chapter of the American Academy of Pediatrics is still recommending masking for children after their state's mandate was removed. Children are the last at-risk group for COVID. Schools are not some extra-dangerous vector for transmission. I am not a child psychologist, but I can't imagine children reliably wearing their masks correctly or being able to learn normal social interaction while wearing them. So what is the point of this recommendation other than fear-mongering? It's certainly not based in science.
Again, the "experts" on COVID engaging in incompetence, fear mongering, and dishonesty is a daily occurrence. The fact we ever elevated these people to a position of authority, and have allowed them to stay there, is a failure of our societey.
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I'm still amazed that covid basically bounced off of my family. Daughter was over her fever in 12-18 hours, sniffles were gone after 2 days. My wife and just had symptoms that felt like booster shot side effects, and after 2-3 days, we were fine. My unvaccinated son never got sick - he was either asymptomatic or we weren't contagious enough to infect him.
I have a physical scheduled for Friday and I'll ask the doctor if the antibody blood test would pick up whether I had covid, even with such minor symptoms. My wife and I were a little sad that we never had enough symptoms to test positive on a home rapid test.
The experience really made me believe in the efficacy of the vaccines and boosters. My unvaccinated brother in law tested positive and was sick enough to miss 5 days of work. If he had the vaccine and booster, his symptoms could have been so minor that he'd never test positive and never would have had to miss work.
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I am not a child psychologist, but I can't imagine children reliably wearing their masks correctly or being able to learn normal social interaction while wearing them. So what is the point of this recommendation other than fear-mongering? It's certainly not based in science.
Hmmm.
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I am not a child psychologist, but I can't imagine children reliably wearing their masks correctly or being able to learn normal social interaction while wearing them. So what is the point of this recommendation other than fear-mongering? It's certainly not based in science.
Hmmm.
What of it? Have you ever been around children ever? They can't not fidget with anything they hold/wear. They learn how to interact with people, including facial cues, from the adults around them. Hard to do that with a mask on.
Credentialism is a worse disease than COVID. A whole industry of people with billions of dollars of schooling and degrees understood COVID worse than people with anime avatars on Twitter who thought "wait, doesn't this sound like bullshit?"
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I am not a child psychologist, but I can't imagine children reliably wearing their masks correctly or being able to learn normal social interaction while wearing them. So what is the point of this recommendation other than fear-mongering? It's certainly not based in science.
Hmmm.
What of it? Have you ever been around children ever? They can't not fidget with anything they hold/wear. They learn how to interact with people, including facial cues, from the adults around them. Hard to do that with a mask on.
Credentialism is a worse disease than COVID. A whole industry of people with billions of dollars of schooling and degrees understood COVID worse than people with anime avatars on Twitter who thought "wait, doesn't this sound like bullshit?"
Idk. My best buddy's daughter just turned 4 a month ago. Nearly half of her existence has been during a pandemic. I know it's entirely anecdotal, but she's 100% fine. She's hilarious and picks up on social queues just fine. She's more polite and has better communication skills than many of the adults I regularly encounter.
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I am not a child psychologist, but I can't imagine children reliably wearing their masks correctly or being able to learn normal social interaction while wearing them. So what is the point of this recommendation other than fear-mongering? It's certainly not based in science.
Hmmm.
What of it? Have you ever been around children ever? They can't not fidget with anything they hold/wear. They learn how to interact with people, including facial cues, from the adults around them. Hard to do that with a mask on.
Credentialism is a worse disease than COVID. A whole industry of people with billions of dollars of schooling and degrees understood COVID worse than people with anime avatars on Twitter who thought "wait, doesn't this sound like bullshit?"
You went, within the span of two sentences, from being a non-expert who can only imagine how it would affect kids (i.e. someone who is ignorant of the science) to being confident that the bunch of doctors who specialise in childrens' care have not based their policy on this science you are ignorant of.
Hence: Hmmm.
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I am not a child psychologist, but I can't imagine children reliably wearing their masks correctly or being able to learn normal social interaction while wearing them. So what is the point of this recommendation other than fear-mongering? It's certainly not based in science.
Hmmm.
What of it? Have you ever been around children ever? They can't not fidget with anything they hold/wear. They learn how to interact with people, including facial cues, from the adults around them. Hard to do that with a mask on.
Credentialism is a worse disease than COVID. A whole industry of people with billions of dollars of schooling and degrees understood COVID worse than people with anime avatars on Twitter who thought "wait, doesn't this sound like bullshit?"
Idk. My best buddy's daughter just turned 4 a month ago. Nearly half of her existence has been during a pandemic. I know it's entirely anecdotal, but she's 100% fine. She's hilarious and picks up on social queues just fine. She's more polite and has better communication skills than many of the adults I regularly encounter.
I have friends who put their kid in a mask sometimes, but they also make sure to engage with them a lot and get them playtime outside with other kids. Political disagreements aside, they are good people and engaged with raising their kids.
Raising normal children with masking is not impossible but raises the difficulty bar, and in my opinion for no reason.
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I am not a child psychologist, but I can't imagine children reliably wearing their masks correctly or being able to learn normal social interaction while wearing them. So what is the point of this recommendation other than fear-mongering? It's certainly not based in science.
Hmmm.
What of it? Have you ever been around children ever? They can't not fidget with anything they hold/wear. They learn how to interact with people, including facial cues, from the adults around them. Hard to do that with a mask on.
Credentialism is a worse disease than COVID. A whole industry of people with billions of dollars of schooling and degrees understood COVID worse than people with anime avatars on Twitter who thought "wait, doesn't this sound like bullshit?"
You went, within the span of two sentences, from being a non-expert who can only imagine how it would affect kids (i.e. someone who is ignorant of the science) to being confident that the bunch of doctors who specialise in childrens' care have not based their policy on this science you are ignorant of.
Hence: Hmmm.
It's not like this is some topic where everyone with credentials agrees. Multiple European countries have recommended against masking children - https://ajlamesa.medium.com/children-in-much-of-europe-will-be-going-maskless-at-school-this-fall-b244e4f035ad
If there were a topic where everyone educated about the issue believed masking children was important, perhaps I'd think about it differently. But when you have disagreement among educated people on the topic and basic practical life experience says it's a bad idea, no, I care not about my lack of credentials or having spent years researching the topic.
If you're working on a house, you don't need a degree in physics or structural engineering to know that you want to check where the load bearing studs are to make sure you don't accidently weaken them. As I do not raise kids myself, I haven't criticized anyone I know in real life for how they raise their kids and will not do the same here. My main point in this thread has been that what you want to do about COVID is a personal decision, and that includes the ability to make decisions I don't agree with.
But, as a public policy recommendation, I see nothing to make me believe recommending masking kids is a good idea and a couple major obvious problems.
This whole discussion about who's qualified to talk about what is a pissing contest that can only end badly. My memory of the olden days is faded but I know there are multiple people in this thread who can say they're qualified to talk about certain things.
Rather than waste time with this, is there something you have to say why masking kids is good? I did actually read your meta-analysis on masking, even if I ultimately found things in it that made me question its credibility. I would certainly read something else if you posted it here.
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I am not a child psychologist, but I can't imagine children reliably wearing their masks correctly or being able to learn normal social interaction while wearing them. So what is the point of this recommendation other than fear-mongering? It's certainly not based in science.
Hmmm.
What of it? Have you ever been around children ever? They can't not fidget with anything they hold/wear. They learn how to interact with people, including facial cues, from the adults around them. Hard to do that with a mask on.
Credentialism is a worse disease than COVID. A whole industry of people with billions of dollars of schooling and degrees understood COVID worse than people with anime avatars on Twitter who thought "wait, doesn't this sound like bullshit?"
Idk. My best buddy's daughter just turned 4 a month ago. Nearly half of her existence has been during a pandemic. I know it's entirely anecdotal, but she's 100% fine. She's hilarious and picks up on social queues just fine. She's more polite and has better communication skills than many of the adults I regularly encounter.
I have friends who put their kid in a mask sometimes, but they also make sure to engage with them a lot and get them playtime outside with other kids. Political disagreements aside, they are good people and engaged with raising their kids.
Raising normal children with masking is not impossible but raises the difficulty bar, and in my opinion for no reason.
This is the dumbest conversation I've ever read on this forum.
I have kids, and while my heart breaks because they have to wear masks at school, the mask has not changed who they are, affected how they interact with others, nor has it impeded their learning. When my son was 2, sure, he'd rip the mask off, along with any sort of a hat or something else placed on his head. But he's four now and he understands that he needs to wear them in public. He's learned a ton at preschool while wearing a mask. My daughter is 6 - she's learned to read, do math, spell and has made friends all while wearing a mask.
There is more to learning and developing than seeing someone's nose and mouth - eyes and voice inflection convey just as much information as seeing someone speak, smile or frown. This is just a complaint of adults who think that children (or anyone for that matter) shouldn't have to wear masks. Blah blah blah, it's the same crap i've heard for two years now.
Kids adapt to situations very well, moreso than adults who are set in their ways and resistant to change or being considerate to others.
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I am not a child psychologist, but I can't imagine children reliably wearing their masks correctly or being able to learn normal social interaction while wearing them. So what is the point of this recommendation other than fear-mongering? It's certainly not based in science.
Hmmm.
What of it? Have you ever been around children ever? They can't not fidget with anything they hold/wear. They learn how to interact with people, including facial cues, from the adults around them. Hard to do that with a mask on.
Credentialism is a worse disease than COVID. A whole industry of people with billions of dollars of schooling and degrees understood COVID worse than people with anime avatars on Twitter who thought "wait, doesn't this sound like bullshit?"
You went, within the span of two sentences, from being a non-expert who can only imagine how it would affect kids (i.e. someone who is ignorant of the science) to being confident that the bunch of doctors who specialise in childrens' care have not based their policy on this science you are ignorant of.
Hence: Hmmm.
It's not like this is some topic where everyone with credentials agrees. Multiple European countries have recommended against masking children - https://ajlamesa.medium.com/children-in-much-of-europe-will-be-going-maskless-at-school-this-fall-b244e4f035ad
If there were a topic where everyone educated about the issue believed masking children was important, perhaps I'd think about it differently. But when you have disagreement among educated people on the topic and basic practical life experience says it's a bad idea, no, I care not about my lack of credentials or having spent years researching the topic.
If you're working on a house, you don't need a degree in physics or structural engineering to know that you want to check where the load bearing studs are to make sure you don't accidently weaken them. As I do not raise kids myself, I haven't criticized anyone I know in real life for how they raise their kids and will not do the same here. My main point in this thread has been that what you want to do about COVID is a personal decision, and that includes the ability to make decisions I don't agree with.
But, as a public policy recommendation, I see nothing to make me believe recommending masking kids is a good idea and a couple major obvious problems.
This whole discussion about who's qualified to talk about what is a pissing contest that can only end badly. My memory of the olden days is faded but I know there are multiple people in this thread who can say they're qualified to talk about certain things.
Rather than waste time with this, is there something you have to say why masking kids is good? I did actually read your meta-analysis on masking, even if I ultimately found things in it that made me question its credibility. I would certainly read something else if you posted it here.
I have no opinion on the topic. I've not read enough on the subject as concerns children specifically.
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This is the dumbest conversation I've ever read on this forum.
Now that's just rude, and my bar for rudeness is pretty high.
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I have no opinion on the topic. I've not read enough on the subject as concerns children specifically.
This is the internet debating version of ruined orgasm porn
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Don't kink-shame. :P
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This is the dumbest conversation I've ever read on this forum.
Now that's just rude, and my bar for rudeness is pretty high.
What's rude is people who are non-parents making a one-size fits all assumption about how children learn while wearing masks.
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This is the dumbest conversation I've ever read on this forum.
Now that's just rude, and my bar for rudeness is pretty high.
What's rude is people who are non-parents making a one-size fits all assumption about how children learn while wearing masks.
You can flip that though and say the people recommending masks for all children are doing the same. It's why I think the public health institutions should stay out of it and let parents make their own choices.
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This is the dumbest conversation I've ever read on this forum.
Now that's just rude, and my bar for rudeness is pretty high.
What's rude is people who are non-parents making a one-size fits all assumption about how children learn.
Fix'd....
This is the dumbest conversation I've ever read on this forum.
Now that's just rude, and my bar for rudeness is pretty high.
What's rude is people who are non-parents making a one-size fits all assumption about how children learn while wearing masks.
You can flip that though and say the people recommending masks for all children are doing the same. It's why I think the public health institutions should stay out of it and let parents make their own choices.
Children do not learn the same. And children are not taught all the same values and beliefs. Schools are indoctrination centers that teach children the values, beliefs, and customs of the society they are being integrated into. It's why Asian schools, European schools, and even Native American schools are all different. It's why Christian schools are private institutions so they can teach the lessons and values of their christian beliefs.
Public Schools are indoctrination centers ran by the government to instill the values to integrate children into American Society. When a school doesn't do this, then that institution fails.
These public schools were already failing long before covid-19, and what I feel happened is this virus exposed this to a lot of people, because it could not handle it. A lot of people are switching to homeschooling.
And for me, the best type of teaching comes from the parents and the community, whom are very capable of being able to teach their own kids how to be productive members of society. More so than a teacher who has to abide by the regulations set by the public schooling administration industry.
If the parents do not like the masking going on in the schools, they have the freedom to pull their kids out of school and homeschool them. It may require an entire lifestyle change and shift on one's life, but it can be done. I just do not know how that balance is on how easy it is for some to homeschool, while quite difficult for others in which they have no choice but to rely on the public schools for many things besides education.
Over here, a big problem with schools being shut down is that many children will go without food, many homeless children attend public schools for the sole purpose of getting a meal to eat. And also, just recently, the schools shut down over a cyber attack and not because of this pandemic. Which for me, I find that reason for public schools to be closed even more hilarious in this damn crazy ass chaotoc rollercoaster we were thrust onto. Because, to me, that shows even though the schools may have a sense of control over a health pandemic, there's still the cyber threats the schools can't even handle, which if the schools were not so dependent on technology or had fail-safes, they would have still been open as the teachers hand counted, and wrote down attendance in their little grade book, while using the textbooks or books at their local library to teach their subject of choice.
If I were a parent, I'd be more concerned about a cyber attack than masking, to be honest.
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This is the dumbest conversation I've ever read on this forum.
Now that's just rude, and my bar for rudeness is pretty high.
What's rude is people who are non-parents making a one-size fits all assumption about how children learn while wearing masks.
You can flip that though and say the people recommending masks for all children are doing the same. It's why I think the public health institutions should stay out of it and let parents make their own choices.
Kind of with Reapsta here. The problem doesn't seem to be that it's a one-size fits all assumption, just that it's not the FAVORED one-size fits all assumption.
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Kind of with Reapsta here. The problem doesn't seem to be that it's a one-size fits all assumption, just that it's not the FAVORED one-size fits all assumption.
I have a degree in public health and my entire perception of the pandemic for the last two years has always been from a public health standpoint. To me, public health measures are more important than individual freedoms and choices. I understand that it's different for every family, but when we're talking about trying to reduce the transmission of a disease within a population (such as kids in school), it's an all-or-nothing decision. Every kid wears a mask, or no kids wear a mask. You can't make masks an individual's choice when you're trying to reduce virus transmission. This is my public health degree speaking. Here's why:
Me wearing a mask protects YOU. You wearing a mask protects ME. It takes two to tango here.
There is a reason surgeons and medical professionals in an operation room wear masks and not the patient. They're only trying to protect the person on the table whose body cavity is open. If a family wants their kid to wear a mask, they have a limited amount of protection for wearing the mask. But the kid without a mask who is sneezing and sniffling in class? Those germs are flying all over the place. If that symptomatic kid is wearing a mask, those germs aren't flying as far across the room when he sneezes. Most of them will stay behind the mask.
Prior to Omicron, I was fine with the idea of vaccinated individuals not having to wear a mask, because they weren't spreading the disease as much. With Omicron, we're back to square one on the mask thing since it's been getting around the vaccines.
As I type this, my unvaccinated son is now exhibiting symptoms of covid, similar to what my daughter had. I'm a very nervous dad today and will probably be bowing out of this conversation since it's not going to do any good and will just get me even further wound up.
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I hope it's not COVID there Grappler, and it's just winter sniffles.
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Children do not learn the same. And children are not taught all the same values and beliefs. Schools are indoctrination centers that teach children the values, beliefs, and customs of the society they are being integrated into. It's why Asian schools, European schools, and even Native American schools are all different. It's why Christian schools are private institutions so they can teach the lessons and values of their christian beliefs.
Public Schools are indoctrination centers ran by the government to instill the values to integrate children into American Society. When a school doesn't do this, then that institution fails.
These public schools were already failing long before covid-19, and what I feel happened is this virus exposed this to a lot of people, because it could not handle it. A lot of people are switching to homeschooling.
All correct.
And for me, the best type of teaching comes from the parents and the community, whom are very capable of being able to teach their own kids how to be productive members of society. More so than a teacher who has to abide by the regulations set by the public schooling administration industry.
If the parents do not like the masking going on in the schools, they have the freedom to pull their kids out of school and homeschool them. It may require an entire lifestyle change and shift on one's life, but it can be done. I just do not know how that balance is on how easy it is for some to homeschool, while quite difficult for others in which they have no choice but to rely on the public schools for many things besides education.
Over here, a big problem with schools being shut down is that many children will go without food, many homeless children attend public schools for the sole purpose of getting a meal to eat.
I feel like these paragraphs speak for themselves. Homeschool/private school are not viable options for all parents. Therefore public school needs to be as unobtrusive and reliable for as many people as possible.
And also, just recently, the schools shut down over a cyber attack and not because of this pandemic. Which for me, I find that reason for public schools to be closed even more hilarious in this damn crazy ass chaotoc rollercoaster we were thrust onto. Because, to me, that shows even though the schools may have a sense of control over a health pandemic, there's still the cyber threats the schools can't even handle, which if the schools were not so dependent on technology or had fail-safes, they would have still been open as the teachers hand counted, and wrote down attendance in their little grade book, while using the textbooks or books at their local library to teach their subject of choice.
If I were a parent, I'd be more concerned about a cyber attack than masking, to be honest.
I feel like you're trying to drive at something here but I'm not sure what it is.
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I hope it's not COVID there Grappler, and it's just winter sniffles.
Me too - was just on the phone with the doctor's office for some guidance. We have to wait another 24 hours to see if it gets any worse and he develops additional covid symptoms before we can bring him in for a test. Nothing makes me feel more helpless than having sick kids. With my daughter, I knew she was at least vaccinated and I didn't have to worry as much.
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I hope it's not COVID there Grappler, and it's just winter sniffles.
Me too - was just on the phone with the doctor's office for some guidance. We have to wait another 24 hours to see if it gets any worse and he develops additional covid symptoms before we can bring him in for a test. Nothing makes me feel more helpless than having sick kids. With my daughter, I knew she was at least vaccinated and I didn't have to worry as much.
I hope your son is well
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Apparently the website is up for Americans to order free at home tests. I have 7 tests purchased at home so no need for me, but those who haven't gotten sick yet may want to stock up. It was pretty crappy to not be able to find a test a few weeks ago so it would be good to have some on hand.
As for children, I will stay out of it as I don't have kids and I don't feel the need to get opinionated on that, but all my parent friends seem to have some gripe with how the schools are handling things from both sides of the table.
I do agree with this though, you're either all in or not:
Every kid wears a mask, or no kids wear a mask.
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FYI, covidtests.gov is up. Just placed my order for 4 tests. Surprisingly, it was as easy as pie with no glitches.
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FYI, covidtests.gov is up. Just placed my order for 4 tests. Surprisingly, it was as easy as pie with no glitches.
Rumor has it it's being run by Radiant Records. You'll see your tests by summer.
I KID! I KID!
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Thanks for that emtee, just ordered mine.
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FYI, covidtests.gov is up. Just placed my order for 4 tests. Surprisingly, it was as easy as pie with no glitches.
Same. Super easy.
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Kind of with Reapsta here. The problem doesn't seem to be that it's a one-size fits all assumption, just that it's not the FAVORED one-size fits all assumption.
I have a degree in public health and my entire perception of the pandemic for the last two years has always been from a public health standpoint. To me, public health measures are more important than individual freedoms and choices. I understand that it's different for every family, but when we're talking about trying to reduce the transmission of a disease within a population (such as kids in school), it's an all-or-nothing decision. Every kid wears a mask, or no kids wear a mask. You can't make masks an individual's choice when you're trying to reduce virus transmission. This is my public health degree speaking. Here's why:
Me wearing a mask protects YOU. You wearing a mask protects ME. It takes two to tango here.
There is a reason surgeons and medical professionals in an operation room wear masks and not the patient. They're only trying to protect the person on the table whose body cavity is open. If a family wants their kid to wear a mask, they have a limited amount of protection for wearing the mask. But the kid without a mask who is sneezing and sniffling in class? Those germs are flying all over the place. If that symptomatic kid is wearing a mask, those germs aren't flying as far across the room when he sneezes. Most of them will stay behind the mask.
Prior to Omicron, I was fine with the idea of vaccinated individuals not having to wear a mask, because they weren't spreading the disease as much. With Omicron, we're back to square one on the mask thing since it's been getting around the vaccines.
As I type this, my unvaccinated son is now exhibiting symptoms of covid, similar to what my daughter had. I'm a very nervous dad today and will probably be bowing out of this conversation since it's not going to do any good and will just get me even further wound up.
Yes to all of this. You put it in such a simple and succinct way. I cannot understand how it is that hard to get.
As for your son, I can't imagine what you are going through. Hope things work out.
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Kind of with Reapsta here. The problem doesn't seem to be that it's a one-size fits all assumption, just that it's not the FAVORED one-size fits all assumption.
I have a degree in public health and my entire perception of the pandemic for the last two years has always been from a public health standpoint. To me, public health measures are more important than individual freedoms and choices. I understand that it's different for every family, but when we're talking about trying to reduce the transmission of a disease within a population (such as kids in school), it's an all-or-nothing decision. Every kid wears a mask, or no kids wear a mask. You can't make masks an individual's choice when you're trying to reduce virus transmission. This is my public health degree speaking. Here's why:
Me wearing a mask protects YOU. You wearing a mask protects ME. It takes two to tango here.
There is a reason surgeons and medical professionals in an operation room wear masks and not the patient. They're only trying to protect the person on the table whose body cavity is open. If a family wants their kid to wear a mask, they have a limited amount of protection for wearing the mask. But the kid without a mask who is sneezing and sniffling in class? Those germs are flying all over the place. If that symptomatic kid is wearing a mask, those germs aren't flying as far across the room when he sneezes. Most of them will stay behind the mask.
Prior to Omicron, I was fine with the idea of vaccinated individuals not having to wear a mask, because they weren't spreading the disease as much. With Omicron, we're back to square one on the mask thing since it's been getting around the vaccines.
As I type this, my unvaccinated son is now exhibiting symptoms of covid, similar to what my daughter had. I'm a very nervous dad today and will probably be bowing out of this conversation since it's not going to do any good and will just get me even further wound up.
Yes to all of this. You put it in such a simple and succinct way. I cannot understand how it is that hard to get.
As for your son, I can't imagine what you are going through. Hope things work out.
It's not (to the bolded part). But after 23 months, it's also not worth trying to discuss anymore, imo. People's belief systems are immovable, despite facts, reason, logic, data, and/or science.
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Kind of with Reapsta here. The problem doesn't seem to be that it's a one-size fits all assumption, just that it's not the FAVORED one-size fits all assumption.
I have a degree in public health and my entire perception of the pandemic for the last two years has always been from a public health standpoint. To me, public health measures are more important than individual freedoms and choices. I understand that it's different for every family, but when we're talking about trying to reduce the transmission of a disease within a population (such as kids in school), it's an all-or-nothing decision. Every kid wears a mask, or no kids wear a mask. You can't make masks an individual's choice when you're trying to reduce virus transmission. This is my public health degree speaking. Here's why:
Me wearing a mask protects YOU. You wearing a mask protects ME. It takes two to tango here.
There is a reason surgeons and medical professionals in an operation room wear masks and not the patient. They're only trying to protect the person on the table whose body cavity is open. If a family wants their kid to wear a mask, they have a limited amount of protection for wearing the mask. But the kid without a mask who is sneezing and sniffling in class? Those germs are flying all over the place. If that symptomatic kid is wearing a mask, those germs aren't flying as far across the room when he sneezes. Most of them will stay behind the mask.
Prior to Omicron, I was fine with the idea of vaccinated individuals not having to wear a mask, because they weren't spreading the disease as much. With Omicron, we're back to square one on the mask thing since it's been getting around the vaccines.
As I type this, my unvaccinated son is now exhibiting symptoms of covid, similar to what my daughter had. I'm a very nervous dad today and will probably be bowing out of this conversation since it's not going to do any good and will just get me even further wound up.
Yes to all of this. You put it in such a simple and succinct way. I cannot understand how it is that hard to get.
As for your son, I can't imagine what you are going through. Hope things work out.
It's not (to the bolded part). But after 23 months, it's also not worth trying to discuss anymore, imo. People's belief systems are immovable, despite facts, reason, logic, data, and/or science.
The irony of that is profound. :) You'd think after 23 months it would sink in that it's not all about "facts, reason, logic, data, and/or science". :) If I don't give a fuck about you, why should facts, reason, logic, data, and/or science matter? We are, to large degree, a society that talks a big game - "Boston Strong!", ice bath challenges - but we don't, when the rubber meets the road, give a crap about each other. Not wearing a mask is akin to giving the finger and speeding up when someone wants to merge (or giving the finger and slowing down when someone wants to pass). Or any of the multitude of ways we foist "our truth" (see the exasperating thread) on the world.
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The irony of that is profound. :) You'd think after 23 months it would sink in that it's not all about "facts, reason, logic, data, and/or science". :) If I don't give a fuck about you, why should facts, reason, logic, data, and/or science matter? We are, to large degree, a society that talks a big game - "Boston Strong!", ice bath challenges - but we don't, when the rubber meets the road, give a crap about each other. Not wearing a mask is akin to giving the finger and speeding up when someone wants to merge (or giving the finger and slowing down when someone wants to pass). Or any of the multitude of ways we foist "our truth" (see the exasperating thread) on the world.
- I think the idea that people don't care about each other is very dark and generally not true. People (including myself) initially complied with various COVID restrictions because they thought it would help people. Then it turned out they don't
- I have no truth I want to foist on anyway. Take your shot. Wear your mask. I don't care. But don't tell me I have to do it
- Let's say, for the sake of argument, you're right. Is that really a bad thing? Every unjust war, social extermination program (whether it be a genocide or burning witches), or cultish ideological movement is based on some evil psychopath whipping the population into a frenzy by preying on the public's desire to band together for common cause. Given how being "selfish" has been re-defined in the COVID era, I'd say we need more of it. "Selfish" people don't seem very interested in manipulating my life and in manipulating society to further their own ends. "Selfish" people aren't always looking for the next war to feed the military industrial complex. "Selfish" people aren't looking at whatever successes I have in life as something I haven't earned and need to pay back society for.
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- I think the idea that people don't care about each other is very dark and generally not true. People (including myself) initially complied with various COVID restrictions because they thought it would help people. Then it turned out they don't.
They don't? None of them? Are you sure? In my own circles I keep seeing a lot of "ah masks don't work, I got COVID anyway," or "ah the vaccine is pointless, it doesn't even stop the spread". These people must be the worst gamblers in the world, I wonder if they'd never bet with the odds again after the first time they see an underdog win.
- I have no truth I want to foist on anyway. Take your shot. Wear your mask. I don't care. But don't tell me I have to do it
Or what?
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People (including myself) initially complied with various COVID restrictions because they thought it would help people. Then it turned out they don't
That is 100% not true.
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- I think the idea that people don't care about each other is very dark and generally not true. People (including myself) initially complied with various COVID restrictions because they thought it would help people. Then it turned out they don't.
They don't? None of them? Are you sure? In my own circles I keep seeing a lot of "ah masks don't work, I got COVID anyway," or "ah the vaccine is pointless, it doesn't even stop the spread". These people must be the worst gamblers in the world, I wonder if they'd never bet with the odds again after the first time they see an underdog win.
There was a previous discussion about masks in this thread. The evidence from the randomized control trials on masks show they do little to nothing. XJDenton linked a meta review of a bunch of studies that's more correlative, but it has some weird results in it (such as being in China being more protective against COVID than wearing an N95). N95s might help, but that's only if they're perfectly worn, which I doubt people are going to do.
In terms of the shots, you're right that as a public policy measure they're useless precisely because they don't stop the spread.
As for whether or not it's right for you, that's a personal medical decision. I know one person who is old that I think should get it, but they don't want to. I don't hassle or judge them for it. I know another person who is young and physically healthy and was forced to get one because of his job. Basically taking on side-effect risk for no benefit. Offensive. I know someone older who got a booster and got hives afterward. Don't want to judge the decision in and of itself but it was disheartening in a sense that they seemed shocked it happened to them. Should have been aware of possibility. Not just something made up by conspiracy theorists. I know an older person that did not get the shot, was very happy they didn't get the shot, and is in the hospital due to severe COVID complications (not a super close associate sympathy posts not needed). I respect the decision but it obviously didn't work out. Was going to get the shot personally due to potential complications, found out I had already had COVID, declined to proceed. Given the amount of studies showing that natural immunity is longer lasting/more robust than vax immunity, no regrets. Have seen some semi-promising numbers on "hybrid" immunity, but have no interest in exposing myself to potential side effects for a marginal increase in protection. Especially in the Omicron era.
- I have no truth I want to foist on anyway. Take your shot. Wear your mask. I don't care. But don't tell me I have to do it
Or what?
Huh? We're talking on the internet.
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The irony of that is profound. :) You'd think after 23 months it would sink in that it's not all about "facts, reason, logic, data, and/or science". :) If I don't give a fuck about you, why should facts, reason, logic, data, and/or science matter? We are, to large degree, a society that talks a big game - "Boston Strong!", ice bath challenges - but we don't, when the rubber meets the road, give a crap about each other. Not wearing a mask is akin to giving the finger and speeding up when someone wants to merge (or giving the finger and slowing down when someone wants to pass). Or any of the multitude of ways we foist "our truth" (see the exasperating thread) on the world.
Exactly. And that's why it's simply not worth discussing or debating. Large swaths of society have lost the plot, imo.
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- I think the idea that people don't care about each other is very dark and generally not true. People (including myself) initially complied with various COVID restrictions because they thought it would help people. Then it turned out they don't.
They don't? None of them? Are you sure? In my own circles I keep seeing a lot of "ah masks don't work, I got COVID anyway," or "ah the vaccine is pointless, it doesn't even stop the spread". These people must be the worst gamblers in the world, I wonder if they'd never bet with the odds again after the first time they see an underdog win.
There was a previous discussion about masks in this thread. The evidence from the randomized control trials on masks show they do little to nothing. XJDenton linked a meta review of a bunch of studies that's more correlative, but it has some weird results in it (such as being in China being more protective against COVID than wearing an N95). N95s might help, but that's only if they're perfectly worn, which I doubt people are going to do.
In terms of the shots, you're right that as a public policy measure they're useless precisely because they don't stop the spread.
As for whether or not it's right for you, that's a personal medical decision. I know one person who is old that I think should get it, but they don't want to. I don't hassle or judge them for it. I know another person who is young and physically healthy and was forced to get one because of his job. Basically taking on side-effect risk for no benefit. Offensive. I know someone older who got a booster and got hives afterward. Don't want to judge the decision in and of itself but it was disheartening in a sense that they seemed shocked it happened to them. Should have been aware of possibility. Not just something made up by conspiracy theorists. I know an older person that did not get the shot, was very happy they didn't get the shot, and is in the hospital due to severe COVID complications (not a super close associate sympathy posts not needed). I respect the decision but it obviously didn't work out. Was going to get the shot personally due to potential complications, found out I had already had COVID, declined to proceed. Given the amount of studies showing that natural immunity is longer lasting/more robust than vax immunity, no regrets. Have seen some semi-promising numbers on "hybrid" immunity, but have no interest in exposing myself to potential side effects for a marginal increase in protection. Especially in the Omicron era.
- I have no truth I want to foist on anyway. Take your shot. Wear your mask. I don't care. But don't tell me I have to do it
Or what?
Huh? We're talking on the internet.
I would say I disagree with almost every sentence in this post, especially everything you'd said about the vaccines with regards to transmissibility, immunity, and side effects. But that's because I'm taking my advice from my Doctor and following CDC guidance. Now, we could debate all day about flaws with the CDC guidance and messaging and I'm sure a lot of the points you'd make would turn out to be valid. But also, it's a matter of rolling with the consensus vs trusting that individuals who say they can triangulate the truth about what people really need to do themselves. That doesn't mean I don't respect Reapsta from the Forums, but as an individual I can't be burdened by personally auditing everything Reapsta from the Forums tells me against what the authorities are saying. And, by the way, the CDC is providing broad, general guidance. One size can not fit all, but being able to chip away at the flaws or areas that don't fit perfectly doesn't invalidate the whole thing.
That said, as we move on, I expect you'll be more and more validated, especially in an Omicron world and beyond, at least with regards to things like masking. And that's a good thing. Though, having lived in Asia for many years, I hope voluntary masking becomes a similar staple in our crowded spaces at least for flu seasons.
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Good grief.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60050996
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I read that earlier today. What an idiot.
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Given the amount of studies showing that natural immunity is longer lasting/more robust than vax immunity, no regrets. Have seen some semi-promising numbers on "hybrid" immunity, but have no interest in exposing myself to potential side effects for a marginal increase in protection. Especially in the Omicron era.
Reap, good to have you back posting...
We have a friend who did not get vaccinated and now feels more emboldened that he got Covid and recovered. And for a lot of people that is their story. But there seems to be a Russian Roulette characteristic to Covid that I would not take a chance with. The side effect of Covid that I'd be more concerned with is Death.
Not wearing a mask is akin to giving the finger and speeding up when someone wants to merge (or giving the finger and slowing down when someone wants to pass). Or any of the multitude of ways we foist "our truth" (see the exasperating thread) on the world.
Is that how you feel? Don't know why, but I think I'm surprised to read this.
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My workplace has started daily testing, nothing like starting the day at 5am shoving a swab up your nostrils. :metal
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My workplace has started daily testing, nothing like starting the day at 5am shoving a swab up your nostrils. :metal
Everyday??
Are these the results in 15 minutes tests?
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Good grief.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60050996
Survival of the fittest.
We have a friend who did not get vaccinated and now feels more emboldened that he got Covid and recovered. And for a lot of people that is their story.
I have a friend that's the opposite, was very vocal against the vaccines. Got covid and silently went to the hospital and now doesn't talk at all about it.
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Good grief.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60050996
Survival of the fittest.
We have a friend who did not get vaccinated and now feels more emboldened that he got Covid and recovered. And for a lot of people that is their story.
I have a friend that's the opposite, was very vocal against the vaccines. Got covid and silently went to the hospital and now doesn't talk at all about it.
Relevant:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60050996
Hana Horka, 57, was unvaccinated and had posted on social media that she was recovering after testing positive, but died two days later.
Her son, Jan Rek, said she got infected on purpose when he and his father had the virus, so she could get a recovery pass to access certain venues.
The Czech Republic reported a record number of cases on Wednesday.
Mr Rek and his father, who are both fully vaccinated, both caught Covid over Christmas. But he said his mother had decided not to stay away from them, preferring instead to expose herself to the virus.
"She should have isolated for a week because we tested positive. But she was with us the whole time," he said.
Proof of vaccination or recent infection from the virus is required in the Czech Republic to gain entry to many social and cultural venues, including cinemas, bars and cafes.
What a shitty way to lose a loved one.
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We have a friend who did not get vaccinated and now feels more emboldened that he got Covid and recovered. And for a lot of people that is their story. But there seems to be a Russian Roulette characteristic to Covid that I would not take a chance with. The side effect of Covid that I'd be more concerned with is Death.
It's interesting to me how some people bias themselves when it comes to disease vs. shots. The older person I know who won't get the shot is overweight and has had a prior history of pneumonia. Has to get tested daily for their job. Somehow has avoided it the whole time. But it's like, man if you get it you have all the risk factors for a bad outcome. Seems to be better with Omicron (does not attack lungs or fat cells as aggressively), but still man you dodged a bit of a bullet. But ultimately was freaked out by the fact the shots haven't been tested. I respect it but still think the math was wrong.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
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Everyday??
Are these the results in 15 minutes tests?
The facility I work at occasionally in Germany has daily LFT (30 minute) testing as a requirement.
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FYI, covidtests.gov is up. Just placed my order for 4 tests. Surprisingly, it was as easy as pie with no glitches.
Rumor has it it's being run by Radiant Records. You'll see your tests by summer.
I KID! I KID!
I fucking LOL'd.
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Since its "Laughed out Loud" not "Laugh out Louded", it should be shortened to L'dOL.
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My workplace has started daily testing, nothing like starting the day at 5am shoving a swab up your nostrils. :metal
Everyday??
Are these the results in 15 minutes tests?
Yup... But it seems it was a miscommunication. It's once a week, not uncommon for the left hand to be clueless about what the right is doing here. Kind of bummed actually, it'd be nice to get the test daily for free during this wave. Oh well.
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Since its "Laughed out Loud" not "Laugh out Louded", it should be shortened to L'dOL.
*smacks*
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Since its "Laughed out Loud" not "Laugh out Louded", it should be shortened to L'dOL.
*smacks*
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sherv.net%2Fcm%2Femoticons%2Ffighting%2Fdope-slap.gif&hash=2fb935db02e020720fca3ef17b710f52cda7f73d)
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My workplace has started daily testing, nothing like starting the day at 5am shoving a swab up your nostrils. :metal
Everyday??
Are these the results in 15 minutes tests?
Yup... But it seems it was a miscommunication. It's once a week, not uncommon for the left hand to be clueless about what the right is doing here. Kind of bummed actually, it'd be nice to get the test daily for free during this wave. Oh well.
My wife's facility uses a test like this, and there seems to be about a 30% false readings. They've had a number of people test positive, only to have them go get a real test and be negative.
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My workplace has started daily testing, nothing like starting the day at 5am shoving a swab up your nostrils. :metal
Everyday??
Are these the results in 15 minutes tests?
Yup... But it seems it was a miscommunication. It's once a week, not uncommon for the left hand to be clueless about what the right is doing here. Kind of bummed actually, it'd be nice to get the test daily for free during this wave. Oh well.
My wife's facility uses a test like this, and there seems to be about a 30% false readings. They've had a number of people test positive, only to have them go get a real test and be negative.
Part of me is afraid of that happening, and the other part of me knows that my company covers any time off due to covid reasons and would happily take the paid week off for a false positive. :lol
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It's interesting to me how some people bias themselves when it comes to disease vs. shots. The older person I know who won't get the shot is overweight and has had a prior history of pneumonia. Has to get tested daily for their job. Somehow has avoided it the whole time. But it's like, man if you get it you have all the risk factors for a bad outcome. Seems to be better with Omicron (does not attack lungs or fat cells as aggressively), but still man you dodged a bit of a bullet. But ultimately was freaked out by the fact the shots haven't been tested. I respect it but still think the math was wrong.
Haven't been tested?
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Here's some articles about Expectations..
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/cui-bono/201802/the-psychology-expectations
My research on moral psychology tells me that expectations among people are often based on an implicit social contract. That is, without actually verbalizing expectations about give-and-take in a relationship, people construct stories in their heads about legitimate expectations of each other. So, people in a relationship have a "deal" in which the specifics of the deal are never really talked about. It is hard for someone to live up to your expectations when they don't know what they are, but you still might see this failure as a violation of your social contract. For example, Mary Schaefer writes about how she listened to a friend's problems for years, even though it was very difficult, because she expected her friend to do the same for her when she wanted to talk about her problems. That did not happen, and the friendship ended...
...It is difficult to locate the exact origin of the slogan, "Expectations are premeditated resentments." However, I do know why that slogan is popular in programs such as Al-Anon. Alcoholics and addicts tend to be so impaired by their substance abuse that they are unlikely to live up to anyone's expectations. Not having expectations for chemically impaired persons is necessary for keeping one's own sanity. But I would say that the same is also true not just for children, who are frequently unresponsive to expectations due to their immaturity and natural rebelliousness, but to all functioning adults as well. This is because each of us, as an adult, has our own desires and agendas. We want to do what we think is in our own best interest. If we expect other people to act in ways that are not consistent with their own interests, they will probably resist our expectations, leaving us resentful. Furthermore, the person is likely to resent you, too (see Jeff Kesselman's comment on resentments). After all, how do you feel when people expect you to do things that are inconsistent with your own goals and values?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-adaptive-mind/201810/live-your-life-you-not-please-expectations
When you remove your own preconceptions and expectations, you can do the same for others. Living the life you love is liberating—you don’t feel the pressure to please others. Similarly, you won’t need to impose your will on others either.
When you take ownership of your life, other people feel empowered to follow suit.
Expectations are an illusion—they add useless pressure to everyone. Let’s recover the joy of living. Remember when you were a kid. You probably didn’t have time for expectations—you were busy enjoying life one minute at a time.
This is why I am the way I am about this entire situation. The expectations for humans is high, and I know darn well what happens when expectations are high, and my example is Live shows and peoples expectations for bands. (There's plenty of examples of high expectations, and this includes high expectations from the authorities and government).
Because of the expectations and people having vastly different desires and ambitions, it's impossible to expect every human being to abide by these Pandemic Expectations. I understand this and it's a reason I say, What are you doing to protect yourself? Are you getting healthier by exercising and eating more nutritious foods? Are you putting in as much effort for expecting others to abide by the Covid mandates and regulations, into doing what is most beneficial for you?
This is an outcome that's from the cause of humans becoming connected on a world-wide scale, as humans can now see how other humans live on the other side of the planet, and this is where things get fascinating as many expectations of humans and reality get challenged and are perceived differently.
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Since its "Laughed out Loud" not "Laugh out Louded", it should be shortened to L'dOL.
*smacks*
Some people just aren't ready for the truth.
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Apparently the USPS is sending out free tests.
https://special.usps.com/testkits
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Apparently the USPS is sending out free tests.
https://special.usps.com/testkits
Yup. The wife ordered 4 for us.
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Apparently the USPS is sending out free tests.
https://special.usps.com/testkits
Yup. The wife ordered 4 for us.
I ordered some just because. It was painless.
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It's interesting to me how some people bias themselves when it comes to disease vs. shots. The older person I know who won't get the shot is overweight and has had a prior history of pneumonia. Has to get tested daily for their job. Somehow has avoided it the whole time. But it's like, man if you get it you have all the risk factors for a bad outcome. Seems to be better with Omicron (does not attack lungs or fat cells as aggressively), but still man you dodged a bit of a bullet. But ultimately was freaked out by the fact the shots haven't been tested. I respect it but still think the math was wrong.
Haven't been tested?
~Half year long trial that the FDA tried to avoid releasing the data for. I find it sus as well
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It's interesting to me how some people bias themselves when it comes to disease vs. shots. The older person I know who won't get the shot is overweight and has had a prior history of pneumonia. Has to get tested daily for their job. Somehow has avoided it the whole time. But it's like, man if you get it you have all the risk factors for a bad outcome. Seems to be better with Omicron (does not attack lungs or fat cells as aggressively), but still man you dodged a bit of a bullet. But ultimately was freaked out by the fact the shots haven't been tested. I respect it but still think the math was wrong.
Haven't been tested?
~Half year long trial that the FDA tried to avoid releasing the data for. I find it sus as well
I'm amazed that people are stuck on the fact that the clinical trial was so short. Do you want to know why? It's because they had a MASSIVE pool of subjects to test. Hundreds of thousands of people around the world had covid. A typical clinical trial for some other affliction or illness has a lot less individuals afflicted by it. If you're conducting a clinical trial for a new drug that can treat spinal cord injuries, or a specific type of cancer, you have a lot less people to choose from, maybe a few thousand each year. That's why those clinical trials take a lot longer.
The covid vaccine clinical trial being short isn't a bad thing, because the data is the same, whether they got to 40,000 patients within a few months or a few years. The vaccine for the original covid was 90% effective, which is amazing, given that the typical flu vaccine is about half as effective as that. Mutations like Delta and Omicron have found ways around the vaccine, and while that bums me out, it's not a reason for to say that the vaccine is ineffective.
I'd imagine that future doses of the covid vaccine may account for those mutations, and we may see better vaccines as time goes on. At the end of the day, getting a covid shot twice a year isn't a deal-breaker for me, if the experience remains similar to what I had - a few days of feeling out of it and a bit tired, without testing positive. I can keep working, I don't have to avoid people unless I choose to. I get a flu shot each fall, simply because I tend to be around a lot of people in an enclosed public train car when I commute to the office. To me, the flu shot and covid shots are just the same - I'm doing what I can to keep myself from being stuck in bed, sick, for a week, because my family needs me to be healthy.
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It's interesting to me how some people bias themselves when it comes to disease vs. shots. The older person I know who won't get the shot is overweight and has had a prior history of pneumonia. Has to get tested daily for their job. Somehow has avoided it the whole time. But it's like, man if you get it you have all the risk factors for a bad outcome. Seems to be better with Omicron (does not attack lungs or fat cells as aggressively), but still man you dodged a bit of a bullet. But ultimately was freaked out by the fact the shots haven't been tested. I respect it but still think the math was wrong.
Haven't been tested?
~Half year long trial that the FDA tried to avoid releasing the data for. I find it sus as well
Haven't been tested?
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It's interesting to me how some people bias themselves when it comes to disease vs. shots. The older person I know who won't get the shot is overweight and has had a prior history of pneumonia. Has to get tested daily for their job. Somehow has avoided it the whole time. But it's like, man if you get it you have all the risk factors for a bad outcome. Seems to be better with Omicron (does not attack lungs or fat cells as aggressively), but still man you dodged a bit of a bullet. But ultimately was freaked out by the fact the shots haven't been tested. I respect it but still think the math was wrong.
Haven't been tested?
~Half year long trial that the FDA tried to avoid releasing the data for. I find it sus as well
Haven't been tested?
My precision with words is weaker than it once was but I went back and clarified. Not sure what you're getting hung up on.
I'm amazed that people are stuck on the fact that the clinical trial was so short. Do you want to know why? It's because they had a MASSIVE pool of subjects to test. Hundreds of thousands of people around the world had covid. A typical clinical trial for some other affliction or illness has a lot less individuals afflicted by it. If you're conducting a clinical trial for a new drug that can treat spinal cord injuries, or a specific type of cancer, you have a lot less people to choose from, maybe a few thousand each year. That's why those clinical trials take a lot longer.
In this case the issue isn't the amount of subjects but the fact you can't know long term side effects after ~half a year.
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I'm amazed that people are stuck on the fact that the clinical trial was so short. Do you want to know why? It's because they had a MASSIVE pool of subjects to test. Hundreds of thousands of people around the world had covid. A typical clinical trial for some other affliction or illness has a lot less individuals afflicted by it. If you're conducting a clinical trial for a new drug that can treat spinal cord injuries, or a specific type of cancer, you have a lot less people to choose from, maybe a few thousand each year. That's why those clinical trials take a lot longer.
In this case the issue isn't the amount of subjects but the fact you can't know long term side effects after ~half a year.
But you don't know the long term side effects of getting covid are either. Nor for the vast majority of things we do on a daily basis. Some of these "reasons" have been so bogus to me. The story behind the covid vaccine, specifically Moderna, is actually really interesting and dates back quite some time before covid 19 was a thing. We've really gone ass backwards in a lot of ways when we lose trust in the great work modern scientists have done.
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I'm amazed that people are stuck on the fact that the clinical trial was so short. Do you want to know why? It's because they had a MASSIVE pool of subjects to test. Hundreds of thousands of people around the world had covid. A typical clinical trial for some other affliction or illness has a lot less individuals afflicted by it. If you're conducting a clinical trial for a new drug that can treat spinal cord injuries, or a specific type of cancer, you have a lot less people to choose from, maybe a few thousand each year. That's why those clinical trials take a lot longer.
In this case the issue isn't the amount of subjects but the fact you can't know long term side effects after ~half a year.
But you don't know the long term side effects of getting covid are either. Nor for the vast majority of things we do on a daily basis. Some of these "reasons" have been so bogus to me. The story behind the covid vaccine, specifically Moderna, is actually really interesting and dates back quite some time before covid 19 was a thing. We've really gone ass backwards in a lot of ways when we lose trust in the great work modern scientists have done.
While COVID does some goofy shit, in the end it's a respiratory virus. They can have long term effects but usually don't. One of the major problems during COVID we've had is assuming COVID is some wild new thing when it really isn't. The biggest issue here was how hard it was to acknowledge that transmission was seasonal. The South would get hit with a big wave, the media would talk about how bad their COVID policy was. Then the North would get hit and the media would talk about how they need to double down on their containment policies. Reality was they're different parts of the country with different climates and their COVID seasons were at different times of year. I've seen it a lot in this thread and in real life - the default/null hypothesis people seem to have is that COVID is an unknowable and infinitely bad sickness. This isn't supported by anything we know about it.
mRNA technology distributed en mass is a completely new thing that we can't know the long term consequences of until it's actually had a chance to play out. I'm sure the engineering is interesting and has potential, but it's impossible to really know.
I like crypto and PC gaming and building computers and my real life job is still vaguely IT adjacent. Suspicious of technology I am not. But like, I think about the people online who unironically quote tweet an article about homelessness and say "Bitcoin solves this." Like.... the optimism is very tunneled. The mRNA shots might work out, but it's too early to know
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As I understand it, a lot of the work on these vaccines was done before the pandemic even hit, because of the similarity to previous viruses and the work done on those vaccines.
Also, there simply are no long-term side effects to vaccines, as a rule. Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine (1960s), any side effects make themselves known within six to eight weeks.
Also, the study of mRNA vaccines has been going on for decades. These vaccines are not mysteries, they are very well known and well researched.
No long-term side effects. That's not a thing. It's a straw man scare tactic propagated by people who are already against the vaccine.
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Let's also not forget that not all covid vaccines are MRNa based.
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It's interesting to me how some people bias themselves when it comes to disease vs. shots. The older person I know who won't get the shot is overweight and has had a prior history of pneumonia. Has to get tested daily for their job. Somehow has avoided it the whole time. But it's like, man if you get it you have all the risk factors for a bad outcome. Seems to be better with Omicron (does not attack lungs or fat cells as aggressively), but still man you dodged a bit of a bullet. But ultimately was freaked out by the fact the shots haven't been tested. I respect it but still think the math was wrong.
Haven't been tested?
~Half year long trial that the FDA tried to avoid releasing the data for. I find it sus as well
Haven't been tested?
My precision with words is weaker than it once was but I went back and clarified. Not sure what you're getting hung up on.
It's been tested.
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Let's also not forget that not all covid vaccines are MRNa based.
That's true.
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As I understand it, a lot of the work on these vaccines was done before the pandemic even hit, because of the similarity to previous viruses and the work done on those vaccines.
Also, there simply are no long-term side effects to vaccines, as a rule. Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine (1960s), any side effects make themselves known within six to eight weeks.
Also, the study of mRNA vaccines has been going on for decades. These vaccines are not mysteries, they are very well known and well researched.
No long-term side effects. That's not a thing. It's a straw man scare tactic propagated by people who are already against the vaccine.
- Research on this technology has existed for decades, but the technology to make it actually work has only gotten to a state where it's practical over the last ~10 years. This article shows the progression of the delivery methods and approvals for them having changed and updated even up to 2019 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00358-0 . This article (made in 2019) also notes a couple times that extensive human trials had not been performed - https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.00594/full
- Saying there are no long-term effects of vaccines, in a historical sense, has no bearing here. Focusing on the mRNA vaccines specifically, while the technology has existed for decades, the COVID shots are the first mass released mRNA product. They are a new technology, not a crippled version of a virus or some other stand-in organism
- As the technology is new, based on recent developments, and has not had extensive long-term testing, they cannot be characterized as well-known and well-researched
- Think of how often unknown side-effects and causes are found. Asbestos, BPAs, Monsanto products causing cancer. Look at the FDA going back and re-evaluating if chemical sunscreen products, which definitely shouldn't be causing cancer, might in fact be causing cancer. The new major Java code bug has lurked for almost 10 years without being discovered. Whenever some horrible long-term or hidden effect in something is found, the story is necessarily that "well we tested it thoroughly and thought it was safe!"
- It is literally impossible to know if long term side-effects are "not a thing" because it is impossible for the long-term side-effects to have been tested and measured
- Do I think there are long-term side-effects? Not exactly. If you get a long-term side effect like bells palsy, that should show up quickly. My understanding is that the various components of the shot flush out of your body in about a week. It does not make sense that something that leaves your body in a week can lurk and mysteriously come up later
- But again, when these unexpected problems come up, they are... unexpected. I know not why caution/concern about this should be characterized as a fake argument produced by motivated reasoning
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As I understand it, a lot of the work on these vaccines was done before the pandemic even hit, because of the similarity to previous viruses and the work done on those vaccines.
Also, there simply are no long-term side effects to vaccines, as a rule. Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine (1960s), any side effects make themselves known within six to eight weeks.
Also, the study of mRNA vaccines has been going on for decades. These vaccines are not mysteries, they are very well known and well researched.
No long-term side effects. That's not a thing. It's a straw man scare tactic propagated by people who are already against the vaccine.
- Research on this technology has existed for decades, but the technology to make it actually work has only gotten to a state where it's practical over the last ~10 years. This article shows the progression of the delivery methods and approvals for them having changed and updated even up to 2019 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00358-0 . This article (made in 2019) also notes a couple times that extensive human trials had not been performed - https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.00594/full
- Saying there are no long-term effects of vaccines, in a historical sense, has no bearing here. Focusing on the mRNA vaccines specifically, while the technology has existed for decades, the COVID shots are the first mass released mRNA product. They are a new technology, not a crippled version of a virus or some other stand-in organism
- As the technology is new, based on recent developments, and has not had extensive long-term testing, they cannot be characterized as well-known and well-researched
- Think of how often unknown side-effects and causes are found. Asbestos, BPAs, Monsanto products causing cancer. Look at the FDA going back and re-evaluating if chemical sunscreen products, which definitely shouldn't be causing cancer, might in fact be causing cancer. The new major Java code bug has lurked for almost 10 years without being discovered. Whenever some horrible long-term or hidden effect in something is found, the story is necessarily that "well we tested it thoroughly and thought it was safe!"
- It is literally impossible to know if long term side-effects are "not a thing" because it is impossible for the long-term side-effects to have been tested and measured
- Do I think there are long-term side-effects? Not exactly. If you get a long-term side effect like bells palsy, that should show up quickly. My understanding is that the various components of the shot flush out of your body in about a week. It does not make sense that something that leaves your body in a week can lurk and mysteriously come up later
- But again, when these unexpected problems come up, they are... unexpected. I know not why caution/concern about this should be characterized as a fake argument produced by motivated reasoning
So what the eff is your point? You've written nothing............... :tdwn
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In the past page or so we've seen absolute statements (the mask doesn't work, the vaccine doesn't stop transmission, there was no testing, etc) supplanted with the typical waffling relativism (ah, no one can ever know much for sure, bad things have happened in the past...).
I don't really know what else to say, people have a right to be scared and it's no surprise that many don't trust authorities. We can agree to that point but at the end of the day going with the authorities is still a more certain shot than trusting relying on laypeople to triangular the information themselves or worse yet listening to one of those dark web podcasters.
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Seems though most are not afraid but beliefs are what drive them. A little blue pill is ok, damn the side affect but this vaccine? Nope.
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In the past page or so we've seen absolute statements (the mask doesn't work, the vaccine doesn't stop transmission, there was no testing, etc) supplanted with the typical waffling relativism (ah, no one can ever know much for sure, bad things have happened in the past...).
If I think something is certain/likely to be true I saw it with certainty if I think there's ambiguity I try to balance the different viewpoints you can look at it from.
I don't understand the criticism here.
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In the past page or so we've seen absolute statements (the mask doesn't work, the vaccine doesn't stop transmission, there was no testing, etc) supplanted with the typical waffling relativism (ah, no one can ever know much for sure, bad things have happened in the past...).
If I think something is certain/likely to be true I saw it with certainty if I think there's ambiguity I try to balance the different viewpoints you can look at it from.
I don't understand the criticism here.
Almost everything you've said on the last couple pages with regards to masking and vaccines is false if you can trust the CDC/NHS/WHO etc. We are not really talking about who has the better understanding of the virus as that's not possible. We're talking about who is able to trust the authorities and who isn't. And I earnestly mean it when I say I don't blame you, I also just don't buy that you got anything better.
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Seems though most are not afraid but beliefs are what drive them. A little blue pill is ok, damn the side affect but this vaccine? Nope.
I think fear is actually driving a lot of this, on both sides of the coin. Likely amplified by media.
People fear covid and people fear big government. That gives people on both sides some ammo for their beliefs. And yet, the data shows both sides of the fear to be out of touch with reality.
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People who trust the internet over doctors should look inward.
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Exactly. The internet tells me Power Windows is good.
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Exactly. The internet tells me Power Windows is good.
My ears tell me that Tommy Chong.
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Seems though most are not afraid but beliefs are what drive them. A little blue pill is ok, damn the side affect but this vaccine? Nope.
I think fear is actually driving a lot of this, on both sides of the coin. Likely amplified by media.
People fear covid and people fear big government. That gives people on both sides some ammo for their beliefs. And yet, the data shows both sides of the fear to be out of touch with reality.
And this makes sense, but also, this is worldwide. I get many people don't have a very broad view of the world, but even if you decided that the CDC, Big Pharma and Fauci were so corrupt and inept that you couldn't trust them, wouldn't you take solace in the fact that nations around the world have come to basically the same conclusions regarding the general approach completely independent of paying any mind to which social club of the American aristocracy US political party are currently saying what as they drunkenly parade around on the deck.
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I trust the medical community more than some internet whack who thinks his or her body is a temple.
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As I understand it, a lot of the work on these vaccines was done before the pandemic even hit, because of the similarity to previous viruses and the work done on those vaccines.
Also, there simply are no long-term side effects to vaccines, as a rule. Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine (1960s), any side effects make themselves known within six to eight weeks.
Also, the study of mRNA vaccines has been going on for decades. These vaccines are not mysteries, they are very well known and well researched.
No long-term side effects. That's not a thing. It's a straw man scare tactic propagated by people who are already against the vaccine.
- Research on this technology has existed for decades, but the technology to make it actually work has only gotten to a state where it's practical over the last ~10 years. This article shows the progression of the delivery methods and approvals for them having changed and updated even up to 2019 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00358-0 . This article (made in 2019) also notes a couple times that extensive human trials had not been performed - https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.00594/full
- Saying there are no long-term effects of vaccines, in a historical sense, has no bearing here. Focusing on the mRNA vaccines specifically, while the technology has existed for decades, the COVID shots are the first mass released mRNA product. They are a new technology, not a crippled version of a virus or some other stand-in organism
- As the technology is new, based on recent developments, and has not had extensive long-term testing, they cannot be characterized as well-known and well-researched
- Think of how often unknown side-effects and causes are found. Asbestos, BPAs, Monsanto products causing cancer. Look at the FDA going back and re-evaluating if chemical sunscreen products, which definitely shouldn't be causing cancer, might in fact be causing cancer. The new major Java code bug has lurked for almost 10 years without being discovered. Whenever some horrible long-term or hidden effect in something is found, the story is necessarily that "well we tested it thoroughly and thought it was safe!"
- It is literally impossible to know if long term side-effects are "not a thing" because it is impossible for the long-term side-effects to have been tested and measured
- Do I think there are long-term side-effects? Not exactly. If you get a long-term side effect like bells palsy, that should show up quickly. My understanding is that the various components of the shot flush out of your body in about a week. It does not make sense that something that leaves your body in a week can lurk and mysteriously come up later
- But again, when these unexpected problems come up, they are... unexpected. I know not why caution/concern about this should be characterized as a fake argument produced by motivated reasoning
The general consensus among the worldwide medical community, who knows more than you or I do, is that the vaccines are safe.
Experts are experts for good reason. Especially when there is a general worldwide consensus among those experts.
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As I understand it, a lot of the work on these vaccines was done before the pandemic even hit, because of the similarity to previous viruses and the work done on those vaccines.
Also, there simply are no long-term side effects to vaccines, as a rule. Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine (1960s), any side effects make themselves known within six to eight weeks.
Also, the study of mRNA vaccines has been going on for decades. These vaccines are not mysteries, they are very well known and well researched.
No long-term side effects. That's not a thing. It's a straw man scare tactic propagated by people who are already against the vaccine.
- Research on this technology has existed for decades, but the technology to make it actually work has only gotten to a state where it's practical over the last ~10 years. This article shows the progression of the delivery methods and approvals for them having changed and updated even up to 2019 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00358-0 . This article (made in 2019) also notes a couple times that extensive human trials had not been performed - https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.00594/full
- Saying there are no long-term effects of vaccines, in a historical sense, has no bearing here. Focusing on the mRNA vaccines specifically, while the technology has existed for decades, the COVID shots are the first mass released mRNA product. They are a new technology, not a crippled version of a virus or some other stand-in organism
- As the technology is new, based on recent developments, and has not had extensive long-term testing, they cannot be characterized as well-known and well-researched
- Think of how often unknown side-effects and causes are found. Asbestos, BPAs, Monsanto products causing cancer. Look at the FDA going back and re-evaluating if chemical sunscreen products, which definitely shouldn't be causing cancer, might in fact be causing cancer. The new major Java code bug has lurked for almost 10 years without being discovered. Whenever some horrible long-term or hidden effect in something is found, the story is necessarily that "well we tested it thoroughly and thought it was safe!"
- It is literally impossible to know if long term side-effects are "not a thing" because it is impossible for the long-term side-effects to have been tested and measured
- Do I think there are long-term side-effects? Not exactly. If you get a long-term side effect like bells palsy, that should show up quickly. My understanding is that the various components of the shot flush out of your body in about a week. It does not make sense that something that leaves your body in a week can lurk and mysteriously come up later
- But again, when these unexpected problems come up, they are... unexpected. I know not why caution/concern about this should be characterized as a fake argument produced by motivated reasoning
The general consensus among the worldwide medical community, who knows more than you or I do, is that the vaccines are safe.
Experts are experts for good reason. Especially when there is a general worldwide consensus among those experts.
I lack the energy to write out a whole thing that I'm sure would fall on deaf ears, but I work in developing genetic medicines that are highly similar to the mRNA vaccine. I understand the manufacturing, the physiology, and the regulatory. I am HIGHLY confident that they are safe and there are no long-term side effects, based on the mechanism by which they work.
But hey. credentialism is worse than covid, right?
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I lack the energy to write out a whole thing that I'm sure would fall on deaf ears, but I work in developing genetic medicines that are highly similar to the mRNA vaccine. I understand the manufacturing, the physiology, and the regulatory. I am HIGHLY confident that they are safe and there are no long-term side effects, based on the mechanism by which they work.
But hey. credentialism is worse than covid, right?
:tup
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This line of skepticism is similar to the climate change deniers. The vast majority of world scientists tells us one thing. But Joe Keyboard has all the real right answers so we should listen to him.
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I lack the energy to write out a whole thing that I'm sure would fall on deaf ears, but I work in developing genetic medicines that are highly similar to the mRNA vaccine. I understand the manufacturing, the physiology, and the regulatory. I am HIGHLY confident that they are safe and there are no long-term side effects, based on the mechanism by which they work.
Matt, if you have the time and inclination to give a short, obviously over simplified primer on that, I am genuinely interested.
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I would be also interested. I think I have an understanding of why they are almost certain to be safe, but I would like to hear from someone with the requisite background to explain it. :)
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I lack the energy to write out a whole thing that I'm sure would fall on deaf ears, but I work in developing genetic medicines that are highly similar to the mRNA vaccine. I understand the manufacturing, the physiology, and the regulatory. I am HIGHLY confident that they are safe and there are no long-term side effects, based on the mechanism by which they work.
Matt, if you have the time and inclination to give a short, obviously over simplified primer on that, I am genuinely interested.
Sure thing, should be able to one this afternoon!
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Seems though most are not afraid but beliefs are what drive them. A little blue pill is ok, damn the side affect but this vaccine? Nope.
I think fear is actually driving a lot of this, on both sides of the coin. Likely amplified by media.
People fear covid and people fear big government. That gives people on both sides some ammo for their beliefs. And yet, the data shows both sides of the fear to be out of touch with reality.
I think people come up with excuses to hide their real fears. For example, I hate taking pills or vitamins cause I'm afraid of choking on the damn things. If certain pills have side effects, that just re-enforces the fear. However, I'm not afraid of needles. A lot of people out there are terrified of needles. That alone could be preventing them from getting the jab, regardless if they are afraid of side effects.
People who trust the internet over doctors should look inward.
Uh, doctors use the internet too.
Exactly. The internet tells me Power Windows is good.
Hahaha Tim. I just spit my drink out! :lol You're so right. PW isn't good. It's great! :p
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Seems though most are not afraid but beliefs are what drive them. A little blue pill is ok, damn the side affect but this vaccine? Nope.
I think fear is actually driving a lot of this, on both sides of the coin. Likely amplified by media.
People fear covid and people fear big government. That gives people on both sides some ammo for their beliefs. And yet, the data shows both sides of the fear to be out of touch with reality.
I think people come up with excuses to hide their real fears. For example, I hate taking pills or vitamins cause I'm afraid of choking on the damn things. If certain pills have side effects, that just re-enforces the fear. However, I'm not afraid of needles. A lot of people out there are terrified of needles. That alone could be preventing them from getting the jab, regardless if they are afraid of side effects.
There are some individuals who just never get vaccines, for whatever reason, as adults. Whether it's an annual flu shot, shingles, etc. Americans are lazy about their health and have no problem receiving treatment after becoming ill vs. attempting to be pro-active to prevent it.
When it comes to covid though, I really think people's political beliefs and social media are the primarly influences in how they are making their decisions. What angers me the most are people who spend their time actively railing against the covid vaccine. If you don't want it, fine, but stop telling people not to get it and stop writing things about how it's ineffective. My wife's cousin and aunt are absolutely against the covid vaccine, but got vaccinated in December because they couldn't bear to cancel an annual Christmas tradition to go see a play. The theater had a vaccination policy in place. Yet, her cousin is still going online and posting how she'll never get "the jab." Political posturing online is more important to them than being truthful.
Just this morning, I read something written by a person local to me, who copied and pasted an opinion article about the CEO of Pfizer. The CEO plainly said that "two shots of our vaccine are not effective against Omicron, while three shots provides better protection." He was being honest about the vaccine, and it's nothing new. The opinion piece just slandered the CEO left and right, twisting his words into an admission that Pfizer's vaccine is purposely ineffective against covid.
That kind of crap needs to disappear, but sadly, it won't.
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There are some individuals who just never get vaccines, for whatever reason, as adults. Whether it's an annual flu shot, shingles, etc. Americans are lazy about their health and have no problem receiving treatment after becoming ill vs. attempting to be pro-active to prevent it.
True. But it isn't always simply a case of being "lazy about their health." I'll give a personal example. For a long time, I didn't get annual flu shots. I got other shots, and I take other preventative measures for other things. But I wouldn't get flu shots. And it wasn't due to being anti vaccination or anything like that. It was simply because I noticed that I would get very sick immediately after getting them.
My doctor at the time didn't help the situation. When I mentioned it to her, she twisted my words and basically went on a rant about how "it's a myth that flu shots give you the flu." It was incredibly offputting to the point where I just didn't bother to bring it up with her anymore. Years later, with a different doctor, I got a much different response and approach. She explained that it isn't about the flu shot "giving you the flu," but rather that, as with any medication or vaccination, some people can simply have reactions of varying severity where the symptoms often look like the thing the vaccination is trying to prevent, and that is likely what was happening to me.
There was more to it than that that was also helpful. But long story short--the decision on the flu vaccines was not due to laziness, but was a conscious decision weighing the negative effects it was having on me vs. the low risk of severe flu-related complications.
When it comes to covid though, I really think people's political beliefs and social media are the primarly influences in how they are making their decisions.
Very true. And to me, one of the most unfortunate aspects of that is that it happens on both sides of the issue, but each side often seems to have blinders to that fact, and when they point out that "people's political beliefs and social media are the primary influences in how they are making their decisions," what they really mean is that those are the primary influences "for anyone who disagrees with me, but I and my side are immune from that." I see a lot of that, even in this thread.
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For a long time, getting the flu shot was simply a matter of hating needles versus the odds of getting the flu. I almost never get colds or even the flu, but I hate getting shots, so not getting a flu shot was a no-brainer. Now that I'm older (and weaker :(), there is real danger associated with the flu. I could be fucked up for weeks, and that would suck. So getting a flu shot is now the norm. I don't fear needles, I just really don't like them. They hurt. But it's less than a second of pain versus weeks of physical suckage. No-brainer.
Covid is the same thing. Needles suck, but getting Covid could be infinitely worse, so I get the shot. Side effects? Whatever. There is always some chance of side effects, to the point where to me it's not even a factor. Young, otherwise healthy people die from Covid. If I get the vaccine and it turns out that my pancreas will fail in 10 years or some shit, that's still better than dying now. No-brainer.
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Here's another fantastic article in Psychology Today...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/cui-bono/202112/irreconcilable-differences-and-inherent-conflicting-interests
We have no trouble understanding inherent conflicts between animals from different species, especially predator and prey. What is good for a predator is not good for the prey, and no moral value or moral rule can resolve their conflicting interests.
More difficult to accept is the fact that there are sometimes inherent conflicts between human beings and that morality cannot resolve all of these conflicts. Our tendency to believe in universal moral truths leads to the false conclusion that there is always a morally correct solution to every conflict (Johnson, 2007). But sometimes what is good for you is not good for me, and no moral principle can tell us what is "truly good" for everyone...
...So, what can you do when people start doing things that are good for them but bad for you? You could attempt to convince them that what they are doing is not in their best self-interest. That is a tough sell, even if it is true that you know better than they do what is best for them, because our natural cognitive bias is that we are doing the right thing for ourselves. And if they are in fact acting in their own best self-interest, trying to convince them otherwise would involve lying and denying reality.
Alternatively, you can try appealing to moral principles to persuade people to behave differently. You can tell them that their behavior is harmful, unfair, disloyal, disrespectful, or disgusting. You can threaten retaliation. If you succeed in making them feel ashamed, guilty, embarrassed, or fearful enough, they will stop doing what is good for them but bad for you.
Unfortunately, there are costs associated with winning a moral argument. Using moral arguments or threats to get someone to behave differently might be good for you (in the short run), but not good for the other person. He or she is giving up something good in order to avoid shame, guilt, embarrassment, or retribution. The person will remember what happened and—you guessed right—may retaliate later.
What, then, is the ideal solution when your interests conflict with the interests of others? Sorry, but there is no ideal solution. You can seek to behave in such a way that the results are good both for you and for others. But if you enlist in the military or have children or simply live among other people, you will inevitably face situations where what is good for you is not good for the other person. When these conflicts of interest are non-life-and-death, your choice is to sacrifice your happiness for the happiness of the other person or insist that they sacrifice their happiness for yours. Maybe you can compromise with a third option that is neither best nor worst for either of you. Or, if you have an extended relationship, take turns being the happy one. None of these are ideal for anyone, but reality is often not ideal.
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You're right, and my experience often colors my thoughts. I know of no-one that has ever had a reaction to the flu shot, but I forget that a common complaint is that the "shot gave me the flu." I'm lucky in that I've been in great health for my entire life and aside from annual physicals, I really have little experience with doctors that can change how I think about vaccines like you have.
I've studied public health and am very pro-vaccine, regardless of age or reason. I see no reason to not take advantage of the benefits that medicine has given us. So thanks for the reminder that people often have personal experiences that differ from mine.
For a long time, getting the flu shot was simply a matter of hating needles versus the odds of getting the flu. I almost never get colds or even the flu, but I hate getting shots, so not getting a flu shot was a no-brainer. Now that I'm older (and weaker :(), there is real danger associated with the flu. I could be fucked up for weeks, and that would suck. So getting a flu shot is now the norm. I don't fear needles, I just really don't like them. They hurt. But it's less than a second of pain versus weeks of physical suckage. No-brainer.
Covid is the same thing. Needles suck, but getting Covid could be infinitely worse, so I get the shot. Side effects? Whatever. There is always some chance of side effects, to the point where to me it's not even a factor. Young, otherwise healthy people die from Covid. If I get the vaccine and it turns out that my pancreas will fail in 10 years or some shit, that's still better than dying now. No-brainer.
I'm the same way with needles, though shots don't bother me as much as having blood drawn. I had an experience when I was young where I had to provide a blood sample. The doctor was older and this was before we had the nice venipuncture stuff. He had the old-school, hand-drawn syringe and shaky hands. :omg:
I've always been affected by that, to this day. In fact, I turned so pale once about 15 years ago that my doctor left the room and got me a can of coke after he took my blood. :lol
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I lack the energy to write out a whole thing that I'm sure would fall on deaf ears, but I work in developing genetic medicines that are highly similar to the mRNA vaccine. I understand the manufacturing, the physiology, and the regulatory. I am HIGHLY confident that they are safe and there are no long-term side effects, based on the mechanism by which they work.
Matt, if you have the time and inclination to give a short, obviously over simplified primer on that, I am genuinely interested.
Sure thing, should be able to one this afternoon!
Very interested as well. I remember a while back the Times did a breakdown of the Pfizer vaxx production process and I learned so frikkin much about how the shot works from that piece...
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/health/pfizer-coronavirus-vaccine.html (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/health/pfizer-coronavirus-vaccine.html)
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Seems though most are not afraid but beliefs are what drive them. A little blue pill is ok, damn the side affect but this vaccine? Nope.
I think fear is actually driving a lot of this, on both sides of the coin. Likely amplified by media.
People fear covid and people fear big government. That gives people on both sides some ammo for their beliefs. And yet, the data shows both sides of the fear to be out of touch with reality.
I think people come up with excuses to hide their real fears. For example, I hate taking pills or vitamins cause I'm afraid of choking on the damn things. If certain pills have side effects, that just re-enforces the fear. However, I'm not afraid of needles. A lot of people out there are terrified of needles. That alone could be preventing them from getting the jab, regardless if they are afraid of side effects.
There are some individuals who just never get vaccines, for whatever reason, as adults. Whether it's an annual flu shot, shingles, etc. Americans are lazy about their health and have no problem receiving treatment after becoming ill vs. attempting to be pro-active to prevent it.
When it comes to covid though, I really think people's political beliefs and social media are the primarly influences in how they are making their decisions. What angers me the most are people who spend their time actively railing against the covid vaccine. If you don't want it, fine, but stop telling people not to get it and stop writing things about how it's ineffective. My wife's cousin and aunt are absolutely against the covid vaccine, but got vaccinated in December because they couldn't bear to cancel an annual Christmas tradition to go see a play. The theater had a vaccination policy in place. Yet, her cousin is still going online and posting how she'll never get "the jab." Political posturing online is more important to them than being truthful.
Just this morning, I read something written by a person local to me, who copied and pasted an opinion article about the CEO of Pfizer. The CEO plainly said that "two shots of our vaccine are not effective against Omicron, while three shots provides better protection." He was being honest about the vaccine, and it's nothing new. The opinion piece just slandered the CEO left and right, twisting his words into an admission that Pfizer's vaccine is purposely ineffective against covid.
That kind of crap needs to disappear, but sadly, it won't.
I don't generally disagree with you on any of this, but the problem is that it's sort of a decision tree, in that once it becomes a "political" issue, the rules change. "Politics" in America today means confrontation. It means "zero sum game", where there is a clear winner and a clear loser. I can't just have my political beliefs in a vacuum, I need to be heard, I need to make sure that you KNOW my position, honor it, and accept that you are a deplorable libtard.
I know some here disagree with me (we've talked about this in the P/R section at some length) but in my view, it doesn't start to end unless and until we start to push back as strongly against the tactics of the argument as we do the substance, even when we agree with the substance.
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I had a very bad reaction to the one time I got a flu shot and hence never got one again. But the flu is a known virus and I've caught it a few times in my life and know exactly what my decision to not get a shot puts me at risk to and I've accepted that. I still don't get the flu shot and probably won't until I get older and/or feel like my risk has gotten worse.
But the difference in covid is that there's still a lot of unknowns about it. Everyone's reaction is different. The risks are a bit more unknown with catching the virus. So my belief is that it makes more sense to get the covid vaccine.
What's interesting is that when people say the vaccines don't stop the spread, but I am pretty sure I am example of exactly how the spread stopped. When I got covid, it seems I didn't spread it to anyone else even though I was at a new years eve party. Everyone, including myself, was vaccinated and no one else got sick. The spread of covid ended with me. I bet if someone at that party was not vaccinated they probably would have gotten sick from me that night.
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What's interesting is that when people say the vaccines don't stop the spread, but I am pretty sure I am example of exactly how the spread stopped. When I got covid, it seems I didn't spread it to anyone else even though I was at a new years eve party. Everyone, including myself, was vaccinated and no one else got sick. The spread of covid ended with me. I bet if someone at that party was not vaccinated they probably would have gotten sick from me that night.
Pending my son's PCR test results, this was our experience too.
Last week, my daughter tested positive and had minor symptoms. My wife and I each felt off, and I think we both fought it off. But my son didn't get sick at the same time. He had two negative rapid tests Wednesday and yesterday. If his PCR test comes back negative, I am in full belief that the 3 of us protected him with our own small version of herd immunity within the family. That to me, is proof that the vaccine works the way it should.
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https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nocebo-effect-may-cause-majority-of-covid-19-vaccine-symptoms-69617?utm_content=195027872&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-18198832
This is interesting.
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https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nocebo-effect-may-cause-majority-of-covid-19-vaccine-symptoms-69617?utm_content=195027872&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-18198832
This is interesting.
Not surprising considering the trials for the vaccines had much less reports of side effects than the general public, some of that can be accounted for with a much larger sample and diversity of people but a lot of it probably is just simply in people's heads.
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https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nocebo-effect-may-cause-majority-of-covid-19-vaccine-symptoms-69617?utm_content=195027872&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-18198832
This is interesting.
Not surprising considering the trials for the vaccines had much less reports of side effects than the general public, some of that can be accounted for with a much larger sample and diversity of people but a lot of it probably is just simply in people's heads.
Also, people in general tend to need something to complain about to give their banal lives color
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https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nocebo-effect-may-cause-majority-of-covid-19-vaccine-symptoms-69617?utm_content=195027872&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-18198832
This is interesting.
Not surprising considering the trials for the vaccines had much less reports of side effects than the general public, some of that can be accounted for with a much larger sample and diversity of people but a lot of it probably is just simply in people's heads.
Also, people in general tend to need something to complain about to give their banal lives color
Lonestar, speaking wise. :)
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RE: the flu shot
There was a time, long ago, before I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes, that I was really casual with my health, and hated needles, and so I just never got the flu shot, even though my employer provided it to me at no cost. At that time, I rarely got sick, so I just took the risk.
Then I got the flu. And when I say I got the flu, it felt like all the flu in the whole world jumped up and landed on my sorry ass. I have NEVER been that sick before.
Flu shots for me every year since.
Of course, needles no longer bother me the same way. And frankly, even if they did, you can't even feel the needle for the flu shot. That never stops me from asking the nurse if she has any candy for me for being a good boy, of course.
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RE: the flu shot
There was a time, long ago, before I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes, that I was really casual with my health, and hated needles, and so I just never got the flu shot, even though my employer provided it to me at no cost. At that time, I rarely got sick, so I just took the risk.
Then I got the flu. And when I say I got the flu, it felt like all the flu in the whole world jumped up and landed on my sorry ass. I have NEVER been that sick before.
Flu shots for me every year since.
Of course, needles no longer bother me the same way. And frankly, even if they did, you can't even feel the needle for the flu shot. That never stops me from asking the nurse if she has any candy for me for being a good boy, of course.
I lost my spleen to cancer in 2001. The doctors told me that I should get the flu shot every year since I have no spleen. The only year I got deathly ill was in 2004. The 1 year I did not get my flu shot. I missed the AFC Championship game. Pats vs. Indy. So while my buddies were at the game, I had a 104 temp dying on the couch and missed going to the game.
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https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nocebo-effect-may-cause-majority-of-covid-19-vaccine-symptoms-69617?utm_content=195027872&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-18198832
This is interesting.
Not surprising considering the trials for the vaccines had much less reports of side effects than the general public, some of that can be accounted for with a much larger sample and diversity of people but a lot of it probably is just simply in people's heads.
Also, people in general tend to need something to complain about to give their banal lives color
Lonestar, speaking wise. :)
Broken clock is right twice a day.... ;)
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Smack dab in the middle of surviving my 4th surge at the hospital. Honestly, I don't even care if I live or die any more. I'm past my mental and physical limit. So over it I can't even put it into words.
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Smack dab in the middle of surviving my 4th surge at the hospital. Honestly, I don't even care if I live or die any more. I'm past my mental and physical limit. So over it I can't even put it into words.
The entire healthcare system is on the verge of collapsing. A lot of people don't seem to understand this. It isn't just Covid anymore. Covid lit the match but the whole thing is going to burn down and take our most talented providers down with it.
I'm starting to get the same feeling talking to my friends who are teachers. They are leaving the profession in droves.
Again, I don't think many people are actually getting this. The situation has moved beyond dire.
I wish there was something I could say to help, emtee. But I got nothing. Not even hope that it will turn around at this point.
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Smack dab in the middle of surviving my 4th surge at the hospital. Honestly, I don't even care if I live or die any more. I'm past my mental and physical limit. So over it I can't even put it into words.
Can we help in any way?
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Smack dab in the middle of surviving my 4th surge at the hospital. Honestly, I don't even care if I live or die any more. I'm past my mental and physical limit. So over it I can't even put it into words.
Can we help in any way?
From the depth of my soul...thank you. But no, it is what it is. I'm just numb. Tomorrow I do it again. I keep getting up and doing it again. There's no relief.
I'll be ok. Don't feel sorry for me. I could quit but then I add to the burden of my colleagues. So I'll keep going in. Hopefully some day it will be over.
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Well thank you so much for what you do. It's appreciated.
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:hug: to emtee. In a very non-sexual way, of course.
I heard something the other day, and it (briefly) helped clear my mind .... All pandemics end, and become endemic. Not a single pandemic in the history of ever stayed a pandemic. Some rather poignant lyrics here ... and of course, a fantastic video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxxgEzVkEjI
"It's a test of ultimate will / the heartbreak climb uphill"
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Smack dab in the middle of surviving my 4th surge at the hospital. Honestly, I don't even care if I live or die any more. I'm past my mental and physical limit. So over it I can't even put it into words.
I'm so sorry you're having to battle this, yet, for what it is worth, so grateful we have people of your character and strength to battle this
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Smack dab in the middle of surviving my 4th surge at the hospital. Honestly, I don't even care if I live or die any more. I'm past my mental and physical limit. So over it I can't even put it into words.
Can we help in any way?
From the depth of my soul...thank you. But no, it is what it is. I'm just numb. Tomorrow I do it again. I keep getting up and doing it again. There's no relief.
I'll be ok. Don't feel sorry for me. I could quit but then I add to the burden of my colleagues. So I'll keep going in. Hopefully some day it will be over.
Well if there is anything, let us know. Hell, I'll buy you and your colleagues pizza one night if it offers some relief.
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We should totally chip in and send emtee and his team a gift certificate or something.
Getting back to Harmony's post, my wife is a teacher and has seen what the last two years has done to her school and the district. Several teachers at her school retired in the past year, but they were at the point where it was going to happen soon anyway. It wasn't just Covid, that just sped up their timeline a year or two. Teaching is now about maintaining Covid protocols, equity trainings, overcrowded schools, poorly allocated resources, working with students going through trauma at home or living with unsupportive parents (or parent)... To say nothing of schools becoming a battleground over CRT, gender issues, and anything else people feel like taking sides over (that was for Stadler).
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I have the utmost respect for teachers, since I used to be one. I've been a programmer for 25+ years now, but my degree is in education. Teaching conditions in this country were already shitty enough (which is why I got out), and I can't even imagine having to deal with Covid on top of all that.
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My parents were both teachers, and my aunt/uncle as well. Teaching used to be a respected profession, and one you could build a life/family around. All four of them retired around the age of 60 with a good amount of savings, and a pension to boot. I have utmost respect for teachers that are in the profession to educate children.
There's certainly no shortage of people in the profession for less than noble purposes.
jingle.daughter wants to be a teacher, and is in 4th year of a 6-year Concurrent Education program. She'll have good job security, but not sure about job quality. My sense is that conditions are a little better up here than the US, but teachers can be and are vilified quite regularly by certain parent groups, but mostly by the government - especially when it comes to contract negotiation time.
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As I understand it, a lot of the work on these vaccines was done before the pandemic even hit, because of the similarity to previous viruses and the work done on those vaccines.
Also, there simply are no long-term side effects to vaccines, as a rule. Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine (1960s), any side effects make themselves known within six to eight weeks.
Also, the study of mRNA vaccines has been going on for decades. These vaccines are not mysteries, they are very well known and well researched.
No long-term side effects. That's not a thing. It's a straw man scare tactic propagated by people who are already against the vaccine.
- Research on this technology has existed for decades, but the technology to make it actually work has only gotten to a state where it's practical over the last ~10 years. This article shows the progression of the delivery methods and approvals for them having changed and updated even up to 2019 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00358-0 . This article (made in 2019) also notes a couple times that extensive human trials had not been performed - https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.00594/full
- Saying there are no long-term effects of vaccines, in a historical sense, has no bearing here. Focusing on the mRNA vaccines specifically, while the technology has existed for decades, the COVID shots are the first mass released mRNA product. They are a new technology, not a crippled version of a virus or some other stand-in organism
- As the technology is new, based on recent developments, and has not had extensive long-term testing, they cannot be characterized as well-known and well-researched
- Think of how often unknown side-effects and causes are found. Asbestos, BPAs, Monsanto products causing cancer. Look at the FDA going back and re-evaluating if chemical sunscreen products, which definitely shouldn't be causing cancer, might in fact be causing cancer. The new major Java code bug has lurked for almost 10 years without being discovered. Whenever some horrible long-term or hidden effect in something is found, the story is necessarily that "well we tested it thoroughly and thought it was safe!"
- It is literally impossible to know if long term side-effects are "not a thing" because it is impossible for the long-term side-effects to have been tested and measured
- Do I think there are long-term side-effects? Not exactly. If you get a long-term side effect like bells palsy, that should show up quickly. My understanding is that the various components of the shot flush out of your body in about a week. It does not make sense that something that leaves your body in a week can lurk and mysteriously come up later
- But again, when these unexpected problems come up, they are... unexpected. I know not why caution/concern about this should be characterized as a fake argument produced by motivated reasoning
The general consensus among the worldwide medical community, who knows more than you or I do, is that the vaccines are safe.
Experts are experts for good reason. Especially when there is a general worldwide consensus among those experts.
When I think about topics that I have relative expertise in, there is no "expert consensus" of the type that is portrayed to exist around certain scientific topics. Even very fundamental foundations of certain fields are often still hotly debated.
If such an unquestionable scientific consensus actually existed on any topic, to me that would be a sign of groupthink, not that the consensus is accurate. The whole point of science is that it should be questioned.
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Governor Murphy Signs Executive Order Strengthening COVID-19 Vaccination Requirements for Workers in Health Care and Congregate Settings and Requiring COVID-19 Booster Doses
https://www.nj.gov/health/news/2022/approved/20220119a.shtml
This is great news. A close family member of mine works with the disabled, and many staffers have refused the vaccine. I can't believe how selfish that is, to be working with people who are severely disabled and vulnerable to the pandemic and refusing to help protect them.
Many of the unvaccinated staff are quitting, which is a blessing in disguise, as this person has told me that working around the unvaccinated staff has been so challenging based on how unreliable they've been that they were hoping they would quit anyway.
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Governor Murphy Signs Executive Order Strengthening COVID-19 Vaccination Requirements for Workers in Health Care and Congregate Settings and Requiring COVID-19 Booster Doses
https://www.nj.gov/health/news/2022/approved/20220119a.shtml
This is great news. A close family member of mine works with the disabled, and many staffers have refused the vaccine. I can't believe how selfish that is, to be working with people who are severely disabled and vulnerable to the pandemic and refusing to help protect them.
Many of the unvaccinated staff are quitting, which is a blessing in disguise, as this person has told me that working around the unvaccinated staff has been so challenging based on how unreliable they've been that they were hoping they would quit anyway.
How is less people working in healthcare going to help with the stress that the system is already experiencing?
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:hug: to emtee. In a very non-sexual way, of course.
Hey, I'm not putting any caveats or limits on it! I'm kidding of course, but add me to the list of people grateful for people like emtee, with the perseverance and selflessness to keep going for our benefit, not theirs.
Thinking about you, friend.
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Governor Murphy Signs Executive Order Strengthening COVID-19 Vaccination Requirements for Workers in Health Care and Congregate Settings and Requiring COVID-19 Booster Doses
https://www.nj.gov/health/news/2022/approved/20220119a.shtml
This is great news. A close family member of mine works with the disabled, and many staffers have refused the vaccine. I can't believe how selfish that is, to be working with people who are severely disabled and vulnerable to the pandemic and refusing to help protect them.
Many of the unvaccinated staff are quitting, which is a blessing in disguise, as this person has told me that working around the unvaccinated staff has been so challenging based on how unreliable they've been that they were hoping they would quit anyway.
How is less people working in healthcare going to help with the stress that the system is already experiencing?
Because the unvaccinated staff are something like 10x more likely to get sick and quarantined than the vaccinated ones. Better to let the unvaccinated walk so you can staff around the vaccinated who are much more resilient and reliable against the virus, even if there are breakthrough cases. I've heard health care CEOs and hospital directors saying things to the same effect, but now I've seen it play out in my own situation: the unvaccinated quitting due to a mandate is a blessing in disguise for the staffing problems experienced in these settings. For this person I know in particular, every shutdown their center has experience was due to the staff who refused to vaccinate, which has already cost the business something like 6 figures this month.
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Governor Murphy Signs Executive Order Strengthening COVID-19 Vaccination Requirements for Workers in Health Care and Congregate Settings and Requiring COVID-19 Booster Doses
https://www.nj.gov/health/news/2022/approved/20220119a.shtml
This is great news. A close family member of mine works with the disabled, and many staffers have refused the vaccine. I can't believe how selfish that is, to be working with people who are severely disabled and vulnerable to the pandemic and refusing to help protect them.
Many of the unvaccinated staff are quitting, which is a blessing in disguise, as this person has told me that working around the unvaccinated staff has been so challenging based on how unreliable they've been that they were hoping they would quit anyway.
How is less people working in healthcare going to help with the stress that the system is already experiencing?
Because the unvaccinated staff are something like 10x more likely to get sick and quarantined than the vaccinated ones. Better to let the unvaccinated walk so you can staff around the vaccinated who are much more resilient and reliable against the virus, even if there are breakthrough cases. I've heard health care CEOs and hospital directors saying things to the same effect, but now I've seen it play out in my own situation: the unvaccinated quitting due to a mandate is a blessing in disguise for the staffing problems experienced in these settings. For this person I know in particular, every shutdown their center has experience was due to the staff who refused to vaccinate, which has already cost the business something like 6 figures this month.
- Where does the 10x number come from? Is this something your friend is saying? Have you seen this in the news or something somewhere? I have attempted to Google this and cannot find a good number on it
- The crux of what you're saying feels like - because health care centers have to shut down more due to unvaccinated workers and lose more money, that unvaccinated workers are a liability. I can understand hospitals diverting resources due to COVID patients, but sick staff? What is happening here?
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My son tested negative for covid via PCR test and has just a normal cold. So we had covid in the house last week, affecting my daughter, wife and I. And because the 3 of us are vaccinated, we truly protected our youngest from contracting covid. :metal That is exactly how this vaccine is supposed to work.
I had my annual physical this morning and talked about covid a lot with my doctor. When I explained our family's experience last week, he told me that we did everything right with regard to my son. By the 3 of us being vaccinated, our viral loads were low enough that we did not have enough of the virus in us to pass onto my son. If we did, it would be very mild. I also asked him to run the covid blood test, and he will, but also explained that the covid antibodies in my blood would be high enough because of the vaccine. So the blood test won't really tell me if I had covid, and he did offer me a PCR test. I declined, saying that I'm confident that the vaccine did it's job well and despite my curiosity, I don't need to waste the test. I was merely curious about potential natural immunity, but I'm happy enough knowing that the vaccine and booster shot did what it was supposed to do.
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As I understand it, a lot of the work on these vaccines was done before the pandemic even hit, because of the similarity to previous viruses and the work done on those vaccines.
Also, there simply are no long-term side effects to vaccines, as a rule. Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine (1960s), any side effects make themselves known within six to eight weeks.
Also, the study of mRNA vaccines has been going on for decades. These vaccines are not mysteries, they are very well known and well researched.
No long-term side effects. That's not a thing. It's a straw man scare tactic propagated by people who are already against the vaccine.
- Research on this technology has existed for decades, but the technology to make it actually work has only gotten to a state where it's practical over the last ~10 years. This article shows the progression of the delivery methods and approvals for them having changed and updated even up to 2019 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00358-0 . This article (made in 2019) also notes a couple times that extensive human trials had not been performed - https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.00594/full
- Saying there are no long-term effects of vaccines, in a historical sense, has no bearing here. Focusing on the mRNA vaccines specifically, while the technology has existed for decades, the COVID shots are the first mass released mRNA product. They are a new technology, not a crippled version of a virus or some other stand-in organism
- As the technology is new, based on recent developments, and has not had extensive long-term testing, they cannot be characterized as well-known and well-researched
- Think of how often unknown side-effects and causes are found. Asbestos, BPAs, Monsanto products causing cancer. Look at the FDA going back and re-evaluating if chemical sunscreen products, which definitely shouldn't be causing cancer, might in fact be causing cancer. The new major Java code bug has lurked for almost 10 years without being discovered. Whenever some horrible long-term or hidden effect in something is found, the story is necessarily that "well we tested it thoroughly and thought it was safe!"
- It is literally impossible to know if long term side-effects are "not a thing" because it is impossible for the long-term side-effects to have been tested and measured
- Do I think there are long-term side-effects? Not exactly. If you get a long-term side effect like bells palsy, that should show up quickly. My understanding is that the various components of the shot flush out of your body in about a week. It does not make sense that something that leaves your body in a week can lurk and mysteriously come up later
- But again, when these unexpected problems come up, they are... unexpected. I know not why caution/concern about this should be characterized as a fake argument produced by motivated reasoning
The general consensus among the worldwide medical community, who knows more than you or I do, is that the vaccines are safe.
Experts are experts for good reason. Especially when there is a general worldwide consensus among those experts.
When I think about topics that I have relative expertise in, there is no "expert consensus" of the type that is portrayed to exist around certain scientific topics. Even very fundamental foundations of certain fields are often still hotly debated.
If such an unquestionable scientific consensus actually existed on any topic, to me that would be a sign of groupthink, not that the consensus is accurate. The whole point of science is that it should be questioned.
That's some real nice rationalization you've got going there.
Groupthink? Come on. How convenient.
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https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/groupthink
Groups that prioritize their group identity and behave coldly toward “outsiders” may be more likely to fall victim to groupthink. Organizations in which dissent is discouraged or openly punished are similarly likely to engage in groupthink when making decisions. High stress is another root cause, as is time pressure that demands a fast decision.
To recognize groupthink, it's useful to identify the situations in which it's most likely to occur. When groups feel threatened—either physically or through threats to their identity—they may develop a strong “us versus them” mentality. This can prompt members to accept group perspectives, even when those perspectives don’t necessarily align with their personal views. Groupthink may also occur in situations in which decision-making is rushed—in some cases, with destructive outcomes.
To minimize the risk, it's critical to allow enough time for issues to be fully discussed, and for as many group members as possible to share their thoughts. When dissent is encouraged, groupthink is less likely to occur. Learning about common cognitive biases, as well as how to identify them, may also reduce the likelihood of groupthink.
Individual members of the group self-censoring—especially if they fear being shunned or derided for speaking their mind—is one potential sign that the group may engage in groupthink. If those who do dissent are pressured to recant or conform to the majority view, it may similarly signal groupthink. Groups that actively deride “outsiders” may be more likely to fall prey.
Healthy dissent has been linked to more creative thinking and ultimately greater innovation within organizations. Asking one person to deliberately play devil’s advocate and argue with the solutions proposed by the majority is one strategy that has been shown to be effective against groupthink.
Organizations that want to support critical thinking, creativity, and innovation should first foster a culture where dissent is allowed and encouraged. They should reward risk-taking, be open to ideas from all group members—regardless of their experience or position—and create regular opportunities for individuals to share their ideas, big and small.
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That's some real nice rationalization you've got going there.
Groupthink? Come on. How convenient.
Group think has existed forever. Look at medicine. The evidence that washing your hands reduced the possibility of spreading disease existed before it was widely accepted because the groupthink was opposed to it. The people who discovered that ulcers can be caused by bacteria had to fight a years long campaign to get their findings accepted. Not because their evidence was bad, but because the groupthink was on the side of ulcers being a stress reaction. Or science. Look at how everyone poured tons of time and effort into String Theory even though it was obviously thin. Or politics. After 9/11 everyone fell into a pro-war fever dream.
I cannot possibly imagine you don't know this. I cannot possibly imagine that you haven't seen group think in your own life.
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Group think reminds me of executive decisions made in a vacuum without any outside involvement or individual expert opinion. I've seen it over and over in big corporations for decades.
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- Where does the 10x number come from? Is this something your friend is saying? Have you seen this in the news or something somewhere? I have attempted to Google this and cannot find a good number on it
- The crux of what you're saying feels like - because health care centers have to shut down more due to unvaccinated workers and lose more money, that unvaccinated workers are a liability. I can understand hospitals diverting resources due to COVID patients, but sick staff? What is happening here?
- The 10x is vague and refers to the greater likelihood of transmission and hospitalization among the unvaccinated. This varies by group but I've seen something like 5x for younger people and well over 10x when we're talking about the most at-risk groups.
- When your job is caring for the most immunocompromised people out there you should not be allowed to work sick, I think this is reasonable.
That's some real nice rationalization you've got going there.
Groupthink? Come on. How convenient.
Group think has existed forever. Look at medicine. The evidence that washing your hands reduced the possibility of spreading disease existed before it was widely accepted because the groupthink was opposed to it. The people who discovered that ulcers can be caused by bacteria had to fight a years long campaign to get their findings accepted. Not because their evidence was bad, but because the groupthink was on the side of ulcers being a stress reaction. Or science. Look at how everyone poured tons of time and effort into String Theory even though it was obviously thin. Or politics. After 9/11 everyone fell into a pro-war fever dream.
I cannot possibly imagine you don't know this. I cannot possibly imagine that you haven't seen group think in your own life.
Expert consensus evolves over time but that doesn't mean you have a better alternative. Scientific agreement does change, slowly, as understandings evolve, but it's still the surest bet for the time you live on. I respect that some people may see Doctors who are actively engaged in research of the questions on the table and may follow different advice but regular lay people can't hope to come up with something better on their own and not as real participants in science. The among of time the expert advice actively harmed people probably pales in comparison to the amount of times that people throughout history were harmed by quacks or just by self-treating their ailments without trained help.
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That's some real nice rationalization you've got going there.
Groupthink? Come on. How convenient.
Group think has existed forever. Look at medicine. The evidence that washing your hands reduced the possibility of spreading disease existed before it was widely accepted because the groupthink was opposed to it. The people who discovered that ulcers can be caused by bacteria had to fight a years long campaign to get their findings accepted. Not because their evidence was bad, but because the groupthink was on the side of ulcers being a stress reaction. Or science. Look at how everyone poured tons of time and effort into String Theory even though it was obviously thin. Or politics. After 9/11 everyone fell into a pro-war fever dream.
I cannot possibly imagine you don't know this. I cannot possibly imagine that you haven't seen group think in your own life.
Of course I've seen groupthink. But not all of those examples you used are groupthink, and it's a flimsy accusation to cast in the direction of the consensus opinion being one you don't like. It is, dare I say, tin foil-ish.
Which is really weird.
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- Where does the 10x number come from? Is this something your friend is saying? Have you seen this in the news or something somewhere? I have attempted to Google this and cannot find a good number on it
- The crux of what you're saying feels like - because health care centers have to shut down more due to unvaccinated workers and lose more money, that unvaccinated workers are a liability. I can understand hospitals diverting resources due to COVID patients, but sick staff? What is happening here?
- The 10x is vague and refers to the greater likelihood of transmission and hospitalization among the unvaccinated. This varies by group but I've seen something like 5x for younger people and well over 10x when we're talking about the most at-risk groups.
- When your job is caring for the most immunocompromised people out there you should not be allowed to work sick, I think this is reasonable.
Here's the better question, and apologies for wasting your time by not thinking to ask this originally - How many more days a year are going to be missed for vaxxed vs. unvaxxed?
That's some real nice rationalization you've got going there.
Groupthink? Come on. How convenient.
Group think has existed forever. Look at medicine. The evidence that washing your hands reduced the possibility of spreading disease existed before it was widely accepted because the groupthink was opposed to it. The people who discovered that ulcers can be caused by bacteria had to fight a years long campaign to get their findings accepted. Not because their evidence was bad, but because the groupthink was on the side of ulcers being a stress reaction. Or science. Look at how everyone poured tons of time and effort into String Theory even though it was obviously thin. Or politics. After 9/11 everyone fell into a pro-war fever dream.
I cannot possibly imagine you don't know this. I cannot possibly imagine that you haven't seen group think in your own life.
Expert consensus evolves over time but that doesn't mean you have a better alternative. Scientific agreement does change, slowly, as understandings evolve, but it's still the surest bet for the time you live on. I respect that some people may see Doctors who are actively engaged in research of the questions on the table and may follow different advice but regular lay people can't hope to come up with something better on their own and not as real participants in science. The among of time the expert advice actively harmed people probably pales in comparison to the amount of times that people throughout history were harmed by quacks or just by self-treating their ailments without trained help.
- It's not necessarily about better alternatives so much as it is how much we have to act on any sort of expert consensus. With the COVID shots in particular, there's not enough there, and can't be enough there, to belittle people who don't take them, call them selfish, call them stupid, and so on. I also find any mandates regarding them very troubling in part for this reason
- One issue with any professional is what incentives they are subjected to. What social groups do they run in, who do they get their money from? We have seen what happens to perfectly qualified medical professionals or data researchers who speak out against the expert consensus. Social media bans, pressure to be fired from your academic institutions, and I have to assume (though I suppose I can't recall specific examples of) difficulties getting grant money. How many people disagree with the narrative but don't say anything because of the consequences? How many people support the expert consensus, in spite of disagreeing with it, because they're afraid of what will happen if they disagree? This is especially an issue when you get into "public health", where the major decision makers aren't even practicing physicians or researchers but bureaucrats with "Dr." in front of their name
- What I find more useful is when experts disagree with each other, because then you can read informed discussion. It's hard to see that when the consensus experts on COVID don't like going on alternative media and the skeptical experts are banned from/won't be let on corporate media sources. 'Tis a shame
- I don't have an intuition in my head for precisely how often in medicine experts are wrong vs. right, but I think the track record of experts is a bit spottier than you're characterizing it is. Over-prescription of anti-bacterial drugs having to be pulled back, the Opiod epidemic, replication crisis. And I'm sticking with the stuff that's least controversial
- I also think something that's being conflated here is actual expertise vs. "the experts". I agree completely that you should usually get opinions/advice from people who have expertise. I am still hoping Millah writes his post about vaccine engineering. He has expertise in that subject and I do not. But I..... highly question if "the experts" actually have any expertise in the fields they're supposedly experts in. And I think that public policy decision making involves knowledge about people that (a) everyone access to and (b) "the experts" are terrible at understanding. The CDC released some recommendation a few months back about how children should not hug or make contact with their pets because of some medical ailment I don't remember. The only thing I got out of that recommendation is that the people who work for the CDC don't understand people. And I don't understand on a human level how you can ever think that's an appropriate thing to recommend
That's some real nice rationalization you've got going there.
Groupthink? Come on. How convenient.
Group think has existed forever. Look at medicine. The evidence that washing your hands reduced the possibility of spreading disease existed before it was widely accepted because the groupthink was opposed to it. The people who discovered that ulcers can be caused by bacteria had to fight a years long campaign to get their findings accepted. Not because their evidence was bad, but because the groupthink was on the side of ulcers being a stress reaction. Or science. Look at how everyone poured tons of time and effort into String Theory even though it was obviously thin. Or politics. After 9/11 everyone fell into a pro-war fever dream.
I cannot possibly imagine you don't know this. I cannot possibly imagine that you haven't seen group think in your own life.
Of course I've seen groupthink. But not all of those examples you used are groupthink, and it's a flimsy accusation to cast in the direction of the consensus opinion being one you don't like. It is, dare I say, tin foil-ish.
Which is really weird.
A lot of this I addressed above - but as to the tin-foil hat thing specifically - People who thought there would be vaccine mandates were tin-foil hats. People who thought COVID was made in a lab were tin foil hat conspiracy theorists. People who thought there would be additional COVID shots were conspiracy theorists. The term has been rendered meaningless at this point.
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I'm not gonna respond to this point-by-point, because it all comes down to the observation I made earlier in this discussion.
At the end of the day, I'm comfortable opening up the CDC's coronavirus page, and taking what I've seen there at face value. They're the authorities, and I have to just roll with that even knowing that there are new findings constantly, and that there are disagreements and inconsistencies that get ironed out over time. This might mean I get subtoptimal treatment from time to time, because their incentives drove us toward something bad unintentionally happening to me...
I'm pretty socially minded, and thus aware of the different conflicts of interest you may be talking about. The difference is I see no real alternative. I have taken a dying infant to a pediatric ER and begged them to save him at whatever the cost or means, and at that time there was no way I could begin to understand what they were going to do to him or whether I could personally be comfortable with it (and he lived). There's no alternative to the system we have anywhere on the horizon, and I am confident I will spend my whole life the same way, with no choice but to trust my wellbeing in the hands of highly credentialed specialists who work for personal profit and at the behest of pharmaceutical companies driven primarily to accumulate capital. As Norm MacDonald put it everyone says fuck the pharmaceutical companies until they are the one that's dying.
Sure, I don't HAVE to trust them, I could go it my own. But I don't trust any of the alternatives, or that I personally have the ability to find the truth. Heck, as I write this, I think I may trust the CDC and various healthcare industries even less than you do, but I trust the capacity for trustworthy alternatives in our system EVEN LESS than that.
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What I find more useful is when experts disagree with each other, because then you can read informed discussion. It's hard to see that when the consensus experts on COVID don't like going on alternative media and the skeptical experts are banned from/won't be let on corporate media sources. 'Tis a shame
You don't want the consensus to be right because you want to see the discussion?
Besides, medicine is not one of the fields where you see a lot of experts disagreeing with each other. What you are describing happens in more interpretive disciplines, like art/film criticism, religion, even law, where people with similar credentials can come up with wildly different opnions. Medicine isn't nearly as interpretive (at least not in those ways); the grunt work is done in research labs. The results are what they are.
If there were lots of varying opinions at odds with each other, how could there ever be any standards of care?
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This should be a fun one...
There's a guy in Boston, another in Virginia, both are being denied life saving organ transplants because they refuse to get vaxxed....
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This should be a fun one...
There's a guy in Boston, another in Virginia, both are being denied life saving organ transplants because they refuse to get vaxxed....
C'est la vie! ::)
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This should be a fun one...
There's a guy in Boston, another in Virginia, both are being denied life saving organ transplants because they refuse to get vaxxed....
You'll get kicked off the transplant list if you need lungs and refuse to quit smoking, or if you need a heart and refuse to lose weight. There's no shortage of people who need kidneys, and we can't be wasting organs on people who will jeopardize the longevity and value of those donations. I don't know what those people expect.
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This should be a fun one...
There's a guy in Boston, another in Virginia, both are being denied life saving organ transplants because they refuse to get vaxxed....
I saw this. The guy has a toddler. I can't imagine being so anti-vax that you'd jeopardize your chances of being able to see your children grow. If I were in the same position, I don't think there's anything I wouldn't do.
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This should be a fun one...
There's a guy in Boston, another in Virginia, both are being denied life saving organ transplants because they refuse to get vaxxed....
You'll get kicked off the transplant list if you need lungs and refuse to quit smoking, or if you need a heart and refuse to lose weight. There's no shortage of people who need kidneys, and we can't be wasting organs on people who will jeopardize the longevity and value of those donations. I don't know what those people expect.
That's exactly what the hospital said - that there are vaccination requirements/regiments that transplant patients need to adhere to, including the covid vaccine. From what I know, transplant patients are usually on immunosuppressant drugs for a while to make sure the body doesn't reject or attack the new organ. Makes sense to me that they need to be protected from certain illnesses via vaccines.
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This should be a fun one...
There's a guy in Boston, another in Virginia, both are being denied life saving organ transplants because they refuse to get vaxxed....
You'll get kicked off the transplant list if you need lungs and refuse to quit smoking, or if you need a heart and refuse to lose weight. There's no shortage of people who need kidneys, and we can't be wasting organs on people who will jeopardize the longevity and value of those donations. I don't know what those people expect.
My take exactly. I have numerous friends in the recovery rooms who have to go through enormous lengths before getting a liver transplant, with a minimum sobriety of 2 years, extensive detailed meeting attendance, and extensive work with a recovery therapists alongside it. Most usually end up going to GA or FLA for the transplant since the waiting list here is so extensive.
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This should be a fun one...
There's a guy in Boston, another in Virginia, both are being denied life saving organ transplants because they refuse to get vaxxed....
I saw this. The guy has a toddler. I can't imagine being so anti-vax that you'd jeopardize your chances of being able to see your children grow. If I were in the same position, I don't think there's anything I wouldn't do.
I can't wrap my head around it, man. Even if the vaccine had a 50% mortality rate, that's still better than the 100% chance of death that comes with not getting the transplant.
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Choices have consequences. Suck it up buttercup.
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So either way if they don't get the vaccine they'll die. And one way they die is not from the virus itself, but from worry that they will contract Covid in the hospital because their immunity will be suppressed so the organs won't be rejected, and will die from complications and the body may reject the organ?...
What if they end up getting the vaccine and their body rejects it regardless. Where does the morality lie within that situation, where everything is done to help "save" the patient, yet their own bodies reject the new organ and they die anyways. Would that just be considered the person's fate to die? Or that they were just destined to die in that moment, like a final destination type of deal....
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I made a longish, rambling post (or series of posts) above about my resignation that all doubts and problems with the system aside, our lives all end up in the hands of specialists. It's pretty bizarre to me that a layman could be ready to let specialists give him a heart transplant but also of the opinion that he might know a thing or two more about vaccines.
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I made a longish, rambling post (or series of posts) above about my resignation that all doubts and problems with the system aside, our lives all end up in the hands of specialists. It's pretty bizarre to me that a layman could be ready to let specialists give him a heart transplant but also of the opinion that he might know a thing or two more about vaccines.
It's interesting because while they are being denied organ access, the state I reside in is having issues getting supply of blood. So this means...
"The hospitals right now have about a day's worth of blood on the shelves," said Evelyn Rosado with Vitalant. "They're having to start making those really difficult decisions whether to keep the surgeries that have been scheduled for months or to go ahead and reschedule those and then start saving the blood for emergencies."
Over the past two years, New Mexico has seen a 25% decrease in blood donations, which is even more concerning because other states actually rely on New Mexico for donations too.
"We are one of the main hubs," Rosado explained. "A lot of the other states look to us whenever there's an emergency, so we can take our blood and we distribute it to other places."
This means that, if New Mexico is seeing numbers this low, Rosado says, "you know that everywhere else is really suffering."
Vitalant is urging those who qualify to make an appointment. An online questionnaire will tell you if you are eligible to give blood. If you are, you can donate up to six times a year.
"We social distance and masks are required – although we don't ask for vaccinations right now," Rosado said. "Anybody can come and donate whether vaccinated or not."
https://www.kob.com/new-mexico-news/nationwide-blood-shortage-prompts-calls-for-donations-in-new-mexico/6364547/
Will this also affect the organ transplant surgeries as well, or will they be classified based on the urgent need of the donated organ?
The entire health industry got hit hard, and some of the situations the industry is dealing with has nothing to do with whether people got vaccinated or not. The blood supply is now low because people are too afraid to go out and donate blood, most of which was gathered by use of the mobile blood banks and blood donation events that were held.
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I made a longish, rambling post (or series of posts) above about my resignation that all doubts and problems with the system aside, our lives all end up in the hands of specialists. It's pretty bizarre to me that a layman could be ready to let specialists give him a heart transplant but also of the opinion that he might know a thing or two more about vaccines.
Sure doc... Go ahead and cut my heart out and replace it, but keep that dang needle away from me.. I've done my research...
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Choices have consequences. Suck it up buttercup.
No, SOME choices have consequences, depending on the way the Mob is facing. :)
I fully support the hospital's position, for the reasons stated, but I'm not willing to go as far as some people here. People can make their risk evaluations on their own dime. I know for someone in my family that has gotten the vaccine, but only under duress, they fall into this category. They are parked on the position that we have 120+ years of heart surgery experience to draw on, to the point that there's very little we've not encountered so far. But for them, the experience record of this vaccine is less than 5% of that. Say what you want, the COVID vaccine is a relatively new technology, and some of the innovations that went into it's success are less than a decade old, and with NO real-world experience. It's not as ridiculous as some of you make it out to be. It's CERTAINLY not as simple as the difference between "a needle prick" and "slicing open someone's ribcage" (my quotes, of an idea that several here have put forth).
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Say what you want, the COVID vaccine is a relatively new technology, and some of the innovations that went into it's success are less than a decade old, and with NO real-world experience. It's not as ridiculous as some of you make it out to be.
I think this type of feeling was legit a year ago, but now.... (according to Google) there are 4.11 BILLION people fully vaccinated globally (about half of the world's population). There is A TON of real-world experience now. This line of thinking just doesn't really hold up at this point in time IMO. And as stated previously, if the MRNa is not for you, there is another option (at least in the US) for J&J.
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We were in Detroit last Monday-Tuesday for my aunt's funeral, spending the better part of two full days with my daughter who was in from Virginia. She got home Wednesday, her boyfriend was showing symptoms, got tested Thursday, and results Saturday said he's Covid positive. Daughter got tested Monday, results today say she's positive.
So it's been a week now and I'm not showing any symptoms, but I cancelled rehearsal tonight, and I'll probably sit out rehearsal tomorrow night as well. Part of me says it's actually no big deal, Omicron is just a cold, but I can't knowingly expose a bunch of other people to it knowing that I might have it. I have to know. I'm thinking it pretty much has to be Omicron, since I'm double vaxxed and boostered, as is everyone in my family.
First test was last summer when my company paid for tests for every employee. Second one was right after Christmas after someone at our Christmas Eve service tested positive. Swab number three tomorrow morning.
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Part of me says it's actually no big deal, Omicron is just a cold, but I can't knowingly expose a bunch of other people to it knowing that I might have it.
You are doing what's right IMO. It may be no big deal, but it's best to play it safe for others around you. (if possible)
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I agree with Cram. After dodging covid for two years I took a test a few hours ago and I'm positive too, wife is negative. Ive been feeling run down the past 5 days or so and thought fuck it, ill take a test.
The only symptoms I have is that I'm achey and lost appetite (smell and taste are still there)
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I'm pretty sure I'm in the clear, and even if I get it, no biggie. But I'm 60 this year and I'm the second youngest person in the choir. I can't knowingly expose these people. It might just be a cold for me, but it could kill them.
I've had a weird cough and stuffy nose for a few days now. Shit. So... if I have it, what do I do? I'm not going to the hospital; that's for people who can't breathe and might die. I guess I call my doctor and see if there's a pill I can take or something.
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Doing the right thing there O! Hopefully it passes quickly for you.
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And of course, we have Omicron v2 starting its ascension.
https://deadline.com/2022/01/ba2-california-cases-stealth-omicron-1234920347/
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I was going to have a problem with that issue with transplants, but then I read up on it, and learned there was some level of consistency with regards to these procedures, based on medicine and not morals or shaming. I did not know about the issues lonestar brought up, for example.
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Getting your name put on any organ transplant list means you sign on the dotted line that you will be up to date on ALL vaccines.
This has been standard policy for literally decades. After the patient receives a transplant they go on immunosuppressants for life, it makes complete sense that if we are going to give them your loved ones harvested organ after death that the recipient does the bare minimum to prevent themselves from vaccine preventable diseases.
UNOS does not fuck around. And the guy in Boston was undoubtedly informed of this before he signed up.
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Right, so if it is all standard, and we are not making up special Covid rules as we go, there is consistency.
I cannot speak intelligently about such procedures, but I am sure to your point there are countless consultations and endless paperwork involved in such surgeries. It isn't like getting your car's oil changed.
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Choices have consequences. Suck it up buttercup.
No, SOME choices have consequences, depending on the way the Mob is facing. :)
No, ALL choices have consequences .. I'm not just talking COVID here, I'm talking life in general. Some consequences are meaningless, some are significant. Newton's 1st law also applies to life. And also, this is SOP for transplants. This story is a nothing burger. Outrage for the sake of outrage. I don't ever remember reading news about a liver transplant recipient (and their supporters of "FREEDOM!") losing their shit because they refused to stop pounding back a 40 of JD nightly. Or a gastric bypass candidate not getting it cuz they need to maintain their all-natural Jabba the Hutt cosplay look.
Back to the COVID topic now ...
First ... Bob ... you're definitely doing the right thing. Hope it does start and end as a mild case for you.
But for them, the experience record of this vaccine is less than 5% of that. Say what you want, the COVID vaccine is a relatively new technology, and some of the innovations that went into it's success are less than a decade old, and with NO real-world experience. It's not as ridiculous as some of you make it out to be. It's CERTAINLY not as simple as the difference between "a needle prick" and "slicing open someone's ribcage" (my quotes, of an idea that several here have put forth).
If this is the argument, then please inform me what we know about the long term effects of COVID. It is by definition a "novel" virus, so it seems counterintuitive that someone is willing to defend their choice because (despite all the expert research disputing it) they have concerns about potential long-term effects of the vaccine - why then aren't those people then concerned about the potential long-term effects of the virus (not to mention the KNOWN short term effects)?
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I've actually seen a few guys who couldn't quit drinking in the face of an impending liver transplant, only to lose the opportunity, and I've seen a few start drinking on the new liver. None made it, though that speaks more to the power of alcoholism than anything else.
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Choices have consequences. Suck it up buttercup.
No, SOME choices have consequences, depending on the way the Mob is facing. :)
No, ALL choices have consequences .. I'm not just talking COVID here, I'm talking life in general. Some consequences are meaningless, some are significant. Newton's 1st law also applies to life. And also, this is SOP for transplants. This story is a nothing burger. Outrage for the sake of outrage. I don't ever remember reading news about a liver transplant recipient (and their supporters of "FREEDOM!") losing their shit because they refused to stop pounding back a 40 of JD nightly. Or a gastric bypass candidate not getting it cuz they need to maintain their all-natural Jabba the Hutt cosplay look.
Of course, you're right, Chad; I was glibly (perhaps too glibly) making the point that we seem to be, in life in general, very subjective about when we apply the meaningful consequences versus when we apply the meaningless ones. We just had a case here in CT, decided by the State Supreme Court within the last day or so. Two guys, waiting in line for exercise equipment, sued two gyms that had "women's only" sections, saying it was unconstitutional. And, because that's the law as established by hundreds of women looking for "equality", they won easily. There's outrage here. Women are gawked at; women are now more susceptible than ever to sexual harassment and abuse; women are entitled to feel comfortable and "unattacked" when working out. All true, I guess, to some degree or another, but where were these standards when the case law was being developed? And in keeping with the point I made to Hef in another thread, why is ANYONE surprised at this, since it would take only a simple question - "how do you feel about this?" - to the men on the other side of the landmark cases to see how this would turn out. I'm not Channing Tatum, and wasn't even when I was in shape; I was no more comfortable doing benchpresses in front of cute girls in leotards than they were doing their lats in front of me. If we're going to hang our hats on the premise that we all have choice, but we all have to "suck it up buttercup" to the consequences, then they damn well better be reasonably predictable, and reasonably uniform.
I've already said, I have no beef with the hospital here. They are, as you say, following SOP. It IS a nothingburger.
But for them, the experience record of this vaccine is less than 5% of that. Say what you want, the COVID vaccine is a relatively new technology, and some of the innovations that went into it's success are less than a decade old, and with NO real-world experience. It's not as ridiculous as some of you make it out to be. It's CERTAINLY not as simple as the difference between "a needle prick" and "slicing open someone's ribcage" (my quotes, of an idea that several here have put forth).
If this is the argument, then please inform me what we know about the long term effects of COVID. It is by definition a "novel" virus, so it seems counterintuitive that someone is willing to defend their choice because (despite all the expert research disputing it) they have concerns about potential long-term effects of the vaccine - why then aren't those people then concerned about the potential long-term effects of the virus (not to mention the KNOWN short term effects)?
Why do you* get to do the risk/benefit analysis for someone else? That BAFFLES me. We DON'T know about the long term effects of COVID. That's the point. We don't know about the long term effects of mRNA vaccines either. For the traditional model of vaccines, we typically know all we're ever going to know within about six months of wide-spread introduction. We also typically know all we're ever going to know about the effects of the underlying virus after about six months to a year, so if we're going to now say "well, we don't REALLY know the impacts of COVID long term", we can't actually be surprised if some people also say "well, we don't REALLY know the impacts of the COVID vaccine long term." Why do you get to pick your arguments and no one else** does? Why do you get to tell them how to value those relative risks?
I know for me, I can formulate an argument why I take my chances with the virus. Assuming they are all first-impression cases, only about 365 million cases have occurred across the world; that's less than 5% of the population. The odds of me getting COVID then, are both random and rather small. I may never even be exposed to the virus, and if I was (and didn't get infected) I'd likely never know. It's out of my control, largely. If I ELECT to get the vaccine, the odds are 100% in my control that I'm now exposed to the risks. I can't get the impacts from the vaccine if I don't take the vaccine. I have, myself, adopted this logic in my life on several occasions; I was a freshman in college when Len Bias died of a cocaine-induced heart attack, after allegedly only trying the drug one time. That, coupled with what I know to be a fairly addictive personality, I decided then, and have stuck to my guns, that if I never try cocaine, I can't ever have my heart explode because of it, and I can't ever get addicted to it. I'm sure there are many people here that if we substituted "guns" in to the discussion would have no issue with the logic "if you never buy a gun, you can't ever have an accidental shooting occur on your watch".
Look, I'm not asking you to ACCEPT this logic, you adopt any logic you want. I'm just pointing out that a lot of this discussion regarding risk/benefit involves a LOT of projecting.
* I don't mean "you", Chad, but "you" those who are questioning why someone might make a different decision than you
** That is, those that disagree with you.
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And by the way, I don't say all this stuff to be difficult. I say all this stuff because for me, life doesn't fit nicely into neat little threads, each with their own moderator. Life is an interwoven tapestry. The same response that makes us question why someone would be so stupid as to not get a vaccine also makes us question why someone would be so stupid as to follow [insert politician]. We can NEVER hope to abolish - or at least minimize - the in-groups and out-groups if we don't practice the skillset of putting ourselves in other people's shoes when we're discussing differences. The bigger the difference, the harder the job, and the more we need our skills sharp.
(And for those who still insist that it's our job to change minds, I would make the same argument: how can you begin to effectively change minds if you don't know what/where the mind is that you're trying to change? It's like trying to cook a meal and not bothering to see what you have in the pantry first.)
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What I find more useful is when experts disagree with each other, because then you can read informed discussion. It's hard to see that when the consensus experts on COVID don't like going on alternative media and the skeptical experts are banned from/won't be let on corporate media sources. 'Tis a shame
You don't want the consensus to be right because you want to see the discussion?
Besides, medicine is not one of the fields where you see a lot of experts disagreeing with each other. What you are describing happens in more interpretive disciplines, like art/film criticism, religion, even law, where people with similar credentials can come up with wildly different opnions. Medicine isn't nearly as interpretive (at least not in those ways); the grunt work is done in research labs. The results are what they are.
If there were lots of varying opinions at odds with each other, how could there ever be any standards of care?
My understanding of psychiatric drugs is there's a very live and contentious debate about off-label usage and what's most effective/ethical.
Or if you look at COVID shots for children, different countries are putting together their own guidelines based on their own research.
Before COVID politics forced everything to conform to a narrative, even using masks in hospitals was starting to be questioned based on research that it didn't really do anything.
Yes medicine doesn't have as much debate as art criticism. But to say there really isn't any I don't think is an accurate characterization.
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I had a quick conversation about this with a friend, and something sort of sunk in.
We've seen this sort of thing before. "New study, one cup of coffee a day is good for you!". "New study, people who drink an average of one cup of coffee per day have a higher rate of cancer." "One glass of wine per day promotes lower cholesterol and weight loss". "Even one glass of alcohol per day causes permanent brain loss". We're getting these studies in now related to COVID. It shoudln't surprise even one person that some of the answers/results are conflicting or contradictory. That's the way life works; life doesn't fit into neat little, zero sum, black and white boxes. Things tend to have plusses and minuses; benefits tend to be offset by detriments. Black clouds tend to have silver linings.
I think what both sides fail to account for is that their OWN side has accountability; when one side focuses on ONE benefit (or ONE detriment, as the case may be), it gives ammunition to the other side to reject that. Think of other, controversial, issues. Guns; to hear most of the debates about guns, it's zero sum: you either save lives or preserve rights, with no gray area. The reality is far different, but as long as the narrative is over-simplified like that, we'll never get to any meaningful answer.
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And by the way, I don't say all this stuff to be difficult. I say all this stuff because for me, life doesn't fit nicely into neat little threads, each with their own moderator. Life is an interwoven tapestry. The same response that makes us question why someone would be so stupid as to not get a vaccine also makes us question why someone would be so stupid as to follow [insert politician]. We can NEVER hope to abolish - or at least minimize - the in-groups and out-groups if we don't practice the skillset of putting ourselves in other people's shoes when we're discussing differences. The bigger the difference, the harder the job, and the more we need our skills sharp.
(And for those who still insist that it's our job to change minds, I would make the same argument: how can you begin to effectively change minds if you don't know what/where the mind is that you're trying to change? It's like trying to cook a meal and not bothering to see what you have in the pantry first.)
I really feel this involves what I mean by "Mindsets" and "Perspectives". There are many causes for why humans develop certain mindsets, perspectives, and behaviors.
For one, humans can't read peoples thoughts, so how does one really understand what the other is thinking, feeling, or perceiving? Humans will actually lie to get out of an uncomfortable situation, which means sometimes agreeing with someone when you in fact do not agree with them at all. This happens a lot with fear, and children do this a lot.
I've actually seen a few guys who couldn't quit drinking in the face of an impending liver transplant, only to lose the opportunity, and I've seen a few start drinking on the new liver. None made it, though that speaks more to the power of alcoholism than anything else.
This is a reason why I say things and question the morality of certain lifestyle decisions.
Yes, choices do have consequences and those consequences can either be beneficial or detrimental. We humans should strive for the beneficial outcomes of our decisions and choices more so than the detrimental ones. I understand that there are many, many, many decisions that have had detrimental outcomes that us humans will realize when the time passes. Such as the impact of guns since the creation of Gun Powder, or the devastating effects our behaviors are doing to this Earth, which we humans depend upon to survive.
Or better yet, the realization of the system in which we live our lifestyles is in fact very detrimental, and people are starting to question the very system and it's many wheels and cogs. Such as the health system and the education system. Heck, even the political system is being questioned by the people.
Theres just so many different mindsets and perspectives in this world, that we humans are realizing we are coming into conflict with one another, the very groups we were born into are coming into conflict both in belief, behavior and mindset.
For one, First Nations of the Americas have a vastly different mindset and perspective than the Europeans whom arrived, this caused the detrimental consequences for Native people, while benefitting only the European people. Asian people also have a different mindset and perspective, they do Math differently and also utilize spirituality in their decisions, behaviors and Lifestyle.
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And by the way, I don't say all this stuff to be difficult. I say all this stuff because for me, life doesn't fit nicely into neat little threads, each with their own moderator.
Agreed... which is also the reason you* can't boil it down to 5% chance of potential long term effects from catching COVID vs 100% chance of potential long term effects if taking the vaccine. There are a lot of other variables that go into one's actual risk of negative effects - both short and long term. Other than for outlier reasons, by and large there just aren't any reasonable, statistical, scientific means to conclude that NOT vaccinating lowers one's risk of health impact over vaccinating. Maybe that's a me thing, but I'm not convinced that it is.
*same disclaimer you stated earlier
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And by the way, I don't say all this stuff to be difficult. I say all this stuff because for me, life doesn't fit nicely into neat little threads, each with their own moderator. Life is an interwoven tapestry. The same response that makes us question why someone would be so stupid as to not get a vaccine also makes us question why someone would be so stupid as to follow [insert politician]. We can NEVER hope to abolish - or at least minimize - the in-groups and out-groups if we don't practice the skillset of putting ourselves in other people's shoes when we're discussing differences. The bigger the difference, the harder the job, and the more we need our skills sharp.
(And for those who still insist that it's our job to change minds, I would make the same argument: how can you begin to effectively change minds if you don't know what/where the mind is that you're trying to change? It's like trying to cook a meal and not bothering to see what you have in the pantry first.)
I really feel this involves what I mean by "Mindsets" and "Perspectives". There are many causes for why humans develop certain mindsets, perspectives, and behaviors.
For one, humans can't read peoples thoughts, so how does one really understand what the other is thinking, feeling, or perceiving? Humans will actually lie to get out of an uncomfortable situation, which means sometimes agreeing with someone when you in fact do not agree with them at all. This happens a lot with fear, and children do this a lot.
We can't read people's thoughts, but by god that doesn't slow many of us down from THINKING we know exactly what they're thinking about and, worse, ACTING on it.
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https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/
Wired story on "the experts" fundamentally mis-understanding how aerosolized viruses spread due to mis-reading of old research. This woman spent two decades (!) battling the scientific consensus on what is now seen as obvious.
Not that I've never made a mistake in my life. But these kinds of fundamental errors in research/thinking cannot be the basis of social policy.
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We received an email from our school district superintendent last evening. There is a lawsuit in the State of Illinois where parents grouped together with one bigmouth lawyer downstate and filed a class action suit against the state board of education and about 150 individual school districts (one lawyer filed the suit - parents in each district had to pony up $5,000 of their own money to include their school district as a defendant) regarding the mask mandate in schools.
The superintendent indicated that a decision is likely to be announced today, but with an immediate appeal and another 10 days for an appellate court to uphold or overturn the original verdict. So we're likely to see some school district drama unfold over the next week.
I'm torn about this - I like that the schools have had kids wear masks, but at the same time, I wish my daughter could have a normal school experience. She already had covid a few weeks ago, so I'm inclined to not care if the mask mandate is struck down. I'd probably give her the choice if she wanted to wear it. As for my younger son, who is unvaccinated, I can see a covid outbreak happening at his preschool, and that would really irritate me. We protected him by vaccinating everyone around him, yet a bunch of parents could unravel that for us.
I will say that it has been amazing to go two years WITHOUT the stomach flu in our house. Each year prior, we had 2-3 bouts with everyone in the family getting the stomach bug. I fully believe that wearing masks (and schools making kids who have vomited stay home per covid guidelines) have kept kids with dirty hands from spreading stomach viruses around schools.
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We received an email from our school district superintendent last evening. There is a lawsuit in the State of Illinois where parents grouped together with one bigmouth lawyer downstate and filed a class action suit against the state board of education and about 150 individual school districts (one lawyer filed the suit - parents in each district had to pony up $5,000 of their own money to include their school district as a defendant) regarding the mask mandate in schools.
The superintendent indicated that a decision is likely to be announced today, but with an immediate appeal and another 10 days for an appellate court to uphold or overturn the original verdict. So we're likely to see some school district drama unfold over the next week.
I'm torn about this - I like that the schools have had kids wear masks, but at the same time, I wish my daughter could have a normal school experience. She already had covid a few weeks ago, so I'm inclined to not care if the mask mandate is struck down. I'd probably give her the choice if she wanted to wear it. As for my younger son, who is unvaccinated, I can see a covid outbreak happening at his preschool, and that would really irritate me. We protected him by vaccinating everyone around him, yet a bunch of parents could unravel that for us.
I will say that it has been amazing to go two years WITHOUT the stomach flu in our house. Each year prior, we had 2-3 bouts with everyone in the family getting the stomach bug. I fully believe that wearing masks (and schools making kids who have vomited stay home per covid guidelines) have kept kids with dirty hands from spreading stomach viruses around schools.
And it sucks when those parents have no choice but to send their sick child to school or else they won't be able to support the child. You do not know what other parents have to go through, some are actually struggling just to support their child, which is why some children only receive a good meal at the schools.
Your choices are to send your child to school and risk getting sick, or keep them home and watch them all day and teach them the things they'll learn at the preschool, decreasing their odds of a likely catching a sickness.
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https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/
Wired story on "the experts" fundamentally mis-understanding how aerosolized viruses spread due to mis-reading of old research. This woman spent two decades (!) battling the scientific consensus on what is now seen as obvious.
Not that I've never made a mistake in my life. But these kinds of fundamental errors in research/thinking cannot be the basis of social policy.
And yet they are, and like anything else, there are people that hang their hats on those mistakes/errors.
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All this school drama and one thing comes to mind, my son is 4 months from graduating and being done with this. I'll have no kids in public school anymore.
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https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/
Wired story on "the experts" fundamentally mis-understanding how aerosolized viruses spread due to mis-reading of old research. This woman spent two decades (!) battling the scientific consensus on what is now seen as obvious.
Not that I've never made a mistake in my life. But these kinds of fundamental errors in research/thinking cannot be the basis of social policy.
And yet they are, and like anything else, there are people that hang their hats on those mistakes/errors.
Which is why, and I know this is a broader and somewhat political point, but the entire expert/social engineer class needs to be removed from any position where they have the power to hurt more people.
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https://giphy.com/gifs/mrw-day-period-LkFbp815QxHag
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https://giphy.com/gifs/mrw-day-period-LkFbp815QxHag
:lol
My thoughts exactly
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If only the world could be reduced to pithy memes. The thinking that it can is in large part why we are where we are. Everyone expects this stuff to be black, white, and simple to digest. In reality, the world is a messy, grey, multivariable place.
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If only the world could be reduced to pithy memes. The thinking that it can is in large part why we are where we are. Everyone expects this stuff to be black, white, and simple to digest. In reality, the world is a messy, grey, multivariable place.
Look, I don't mean to pick on you but I've seen this response from you before.
Who here is saying it should be? Just because someone uses a meme doesn't mean they want the world to be reduced to it. Talk about black and white thinking...sometimes memes are just a cleverish way of writing in short hand. You might not like it, and that's fair, but what is acceptable to you and what is acceptable to others are very different things, right?
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If only the world could be reduced to pithy memes. The thinking that it can is in large part why we are where we are. Everyone expects this stuff to be black, white, and simple to digest. In reality, the world is a messy, grey, multivariable place.
Look, I don't mean to pick on you but I've seen this response from you before.
Who here is saying it should be? Just because someone uses a meme doesn't mean they want the world to be reduced to it. Talk about black and white thinking...sometimes memes are just a cleverish way of writing in short hand. You might not like it, and that's fair, but what is acceptable to you and what is acceptable to others are very different things, right?
Doesn't mean they want to, but doesn't mean they don't either. Sometimes memes ARE a cleverish way of writing in short hand; but sometimes that's all there is. It's not a short hand, it's just, uh, the hand. :) I'm not invalidating memes, per se, they play a valuable (if, in my opinion, overused) role. I'm invalidating when the argument is ONLY the meme.
There are a lot of complicated, intertwined, sometimes contradictory facets to the COVID issue. IMO, memes don't help matters.
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Had to do some shopping today and saw something that sort of ticked me off. Walking into the grocery store behind a couple that I could already tell would be no masking it. I'm in Illinois and we are a mask required state.
They walk in, pull out a cart, use the disinfecting wipes that are provided and wipe the whole thing down and then walk into the store. The greeter asks if they have a mask and the woman snorts no in a very condescending manner. I don't know, just seemed counterintuitive in every way. I'm going to disinfect my cart but I am not going to mask up.
We happened to get back to out cars at the same time and I see the woman fire up a joint inside the car. I don't know, they really bugged the crap outta me.
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Had to do some shopping today and saw something that sort of ticked me off. Walking into the grocery store behind a couple that I could already tell would be no masking it. I'm in Illinois and we are a mask required state.
They walk in, pull out a cart, use the disinfecting wipes that are provided and wipe the whole thing down and then walk into the store. The greeter asks if they have a mask and the woman snorts no in a very condescending manner. I don't know, just seemed counterintuitive in every way. I'm going to disinfect my cart but I am not going to mask up.
We happened to get back to out cars at the same time and I see the woman fire up a joint inside the car. I don't know, they really bugged the crap outta me.
This is the kind of thing I just don't understand. Might wiping down the cart and not masking be contradictory? Maybe. Depends on what you're afraid of. I agree that rudeness is bad, but that's their problem and they will pay for it. And I don't know what the lady lighting up a joint has to do with any of this.
How is this different than when a certain type of person tells me they don't like it when they see a black person wear their pants too low?
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If only the world could be reduced to pithy memes. The thinking that it can is in large part why we are where we are. Everyone expects this stuff to be black, white, and simple to digest. In reality, the world is a messy, grey, multivariable place.
Look, I don't mean to pick on you but I've seen this response from you before.
Who here is saying it should be? Just because someone uses a meme doesn't mean they want the world to be reduced to it. Talk about black and white thinking...sometimes memes are just a cleverish way of writing in short hand. You might not like it, and that's fair, but what is acceptable to you and what is acceptable to others are very different things, right?
Let's just be honest, Stadler's response is more likely because of the person posting it, rather than the post itself.
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Had to do some shopping today and saw something that sort of ticked me off. Walking into the grocery store behind a couple that I could already tell would be no masking it. I'm in Illinois and we are a mask required state.
They walk in, pull out a cart, use the disinfecting wipes that are provided and wipe the whole thing down and then walk into the store. The greeter asks if they have a mask and the woman snorts no in a very condescending manner. I don't know, just seemed counterintuitive in every way. I'm going to disinfect my cart but I am not going to mask up.
We happened to get back to out cars at the same time and I see the woman fire up a joint inside the car. I don't know, they really bugged the crap outta me.
This is the kind of thing I just don't understand. Might wiping down the cart and not masking be contradictory? Maybe. Depends on what you're afraid of. I agree that rudeness is bad, but that's their problem and they will pay for it. And I don't know what the lady lighting up a joint has to do with any of this.
How is this different than when a certain type of person tells me they don't like it when they see a black person wear their pants too low?
What in the actual fuck??
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https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/
Wired story on "the experts" fundamentally mis-understanding how aerosolized viruses spread due to mis-reading of old research. This woman spent two decades (!) battling the scientific consensus on what is now seen as obvious.
Not that I've never made a mistake in my life. But these kinds of fundamental errors in research/thinking cannot be the basis of social policy.
And yet they are, and like anything else, there are people that hang their hats on those mistakes/errors.
Which is why, and I know this is a broader and somewhat political point, but the entire expert/social engineer class needs to be removed from any position where they have the power to hurt more people.
Good grief.
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If only the world could be reduced to pithy memes. The thinking that it can is in large part why we are where we are. Everyone expects this stuff to be black, white, and simple to digest. In reality, the world is a messy, grey, multivariable place.
Look, I don't mean to pick on you but I've seen this response from you before.
Who here is saying it should be? Just because someone uses a meme doesn't mean they want the world to be reduced to it. Talk about black and white thinking...sometimes memes are just a cleverish way of writing in short hand. You might not like it, and that's fair, but what is acceptable to you and what is acceptable to others are very different things, right?
Let's just be honest, Stadler's response is more likely because of the person posting it, rather than the post itself.
I admit I am not privy to all the history between board members on this board.
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Test came back negative. :tup I'm Zero for 3 and fine with that.
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Good news, O!
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Awesome Bob!
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If only the world could be reduced to pithy memes. The thinking that it can is in large part why we are where we are. Everyone expects this stuff to be black, white, and simple to digest. In reality, the world is a messy, grey, multivariable place.
Why be reduced to pithy memes when it could just be reduced to endless hand-wringing and relativism?
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Had to do some shopping today and saw something that sort of ticked me off. Walking into the grocery store behind a couple that I could already tell would be no masking it. I'm in Illinois and we are a mask required state.
They walk in, pull out a cart, use the disinfecting wipes that are provided and wipe the whole thing down and then walk into the store. The greeter asks if they have a mask and the woman snorts no in a very condescending manner. I don't know, just seemed counterintuitive in every way. I'm going to disinfect my cart but I am not going to mask up.
We happened to get back to out cars at the same time and I see the woman fire up a joint inside the car. I don't know, they really bugged the crap outta me.
This is the kind of thing I just don't understand. Might wiping down the cart and not masking be contradictory? Maybe. Depends on what you're afraid of. I agree that rudeness is bad, but that's their problem and they will pay for it. And I don't know what the lady lighting up a joint has to do with any of this.
How is this different than when a certain type of person tells me they don't like it when they see a black person wear their pants too low?
Your hands touch shopping carts, grocery items, door knobs and handles, the wall, tables, your wallet... etc...
Things other people's hands also touched.
Those same hands touch your mouth, your nose, your face, your ears, your eye lids, your head, your other hand... etc... Leading germs to enter the many tiny holes on your body.
Masks, especially cloth masks, don't provide the protection you may think they do, and I quote.
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this is very true for germs and diseases in general and more people cleaning their hands more often is one of the good things to come of the pandemic.
However, two years into Covid-19 we do know it spreads more in the air than on surfaces, meaning if someone walks into a store and is carrying Covid without knowing it, if they wear ANY kind of mask they will be spreading much less of it around than if they were unmasked. Hence, since it's difficult to know at all times if you are positive or not, it should (SHOULD!) be easy to ask everyone to wear a mask in indoor public spaces. Once again basic stuff we should all have a grasp on by now.
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Had to do some shopping today and saw something that sort of ticked me off. Walking into the grocery store behind a couple that I could already tell would be no masking it. I'm in Illinois and we are a mask required state.
They walk in, pull out a cart, use the disinfecting wipes that are provided and wipe the whole thing down and then walk into the store. The greeter asks if they have a mask and the woman snorts no in a very condescending manner. I don't know, just seemed counterintuitive in every way. I'm going to disinfect my cart but I am not going to mask up.
We happened to get back to out cars at the same time and I see the woman fire up a joint inside the car. I don't know, they really bugged the crap outta me.
This is the kind of thing I just don't understand. Might wiping down the cart and not masking be contradictory? Maybe. Depends on what you're afraid of. I agree that rudeness is bad, but that's their problem and they will pay for it. And I don't know what the lady lighting up a joint has to do with any of this.
How is this different than when a certain type of person tells me they don't like it when they see a black person wear their pants too low?
Your hands touch shopping carts, grocery items, door knobs and handles, the wall, tables, your wallet... etc...
Things other people's hands also touched.
Those same hands touch your mouth, your nose, your face, your ears, your eye lids, your head, your other hand... etc... Leading germs to enter the many tiny holes on your body.
Masks, especially cloth masks, don't provide the protection you may think they do, and I quote.
(https://c.tenor.com/Os-Fh1gpnBEAAAAC/listen-avengers.gif)
In the meantime, it does seem illogical to be concerned about transmission from surfaces, yet have no care about the millions of particles being inhaled with every breath. :dunno:
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And away we go....
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Had to do some shopping today and saw something that sort of ticked me off. Walking into the grocery store behind a couple that I could already tell would be no masking it. I'm in Illinois and we are a mask required state.
They walk in, pull out a cart, use the disinfecting wipes that are provided and wipe the whole thing down and then walk into the store. The greeter asks if they have a mask and the woman snorts no in a very condescending manner. I don't know, just seemed counterintuitive in every way. I'm going to disinfect my cart but I am not going to mask up.
We happened to get back to out cars at the same time and I see the woman fire up a joint inside the car. I don't know, they really bugged the crap outta me.
This is the kind of thing I just don't understand. Might wiping down the cart and not masking be contradictory? Maybe. Depends on what you're afraid of. I agree that rudeness is bad, but that's their problem and they will pay for it. And I don't know what the lady lighting up a joint has to do with any of this.
How is this different than when a certain type of person tells me they don't like it when they see a black person wear their pants too low?
Your hands touch shopping carts, grocery items, door knobs and handles, the wall, tables, your wallet... etc...
Things other people's hands also touched.
Those same hands touch your mouth, your nose, your face, your ears, your eye lids, your head, your other hand... etc... Leading germs to enter the many tiny holes on your body.
Masks, especially cloth masks, don't provide the protection you may think they do, and I quote.
I don't wipe down carts with sanitizing cloths. I think like one time I did because I was thinking "what if a little kid was sitting in here doing god knows what" and I felt like a germaphone afterwards. I don't see the point of mocking people who do though.
In the meantime, it does seem illogical to be concerned about transmission from surfaces, yet have no care about the millions of particles being inhaled with every breath. :dunno:
That said, this is why I think hyper-focusing on COVID is bad. It's not the only germ or dirty thing out there and some of them I'm sure stick around on surfaces.
this is very true for germs and diseases in general and more people cleaning their hands more often is one of the good things to come of the pandemic.
All that said, agreed as to this.
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Your hands touch shopping carts, grocery items, door knobs and handles, the wall, tables, your wallet... etc...
Things other people's hands also touched.
Those same hands touch your mouth, your nose, your face, your ears, your eye lids, your head, your other hand... etc... Leading germs to enter the many tiny holes on your body.
All the things other people have said, but also, many of us don't do this anymore. I basically haven't touched my face outside the home since February 2020. I elbow everything I can and have hand sanitizer for the times when I can't do something with my elbow, or I just avoid touching my phone or belongings until I can go home and wash my hands properly. It's become second nature and I don't feel like a germaphobe - out of people I know, I was always more on the "kinda grimy" side of the spectrum (for instance, I know people who wash their pants every time they use public transport because they sat on the seats, and I know people who never ate anything in public), but doing this has been a completely natural adjustment for me.
Not that any of this helps me with not getting colds because kids at work breathe on me and touch my face all the time :lol but people who do this and don't work at germ-spreading places haven't been sick in years, and good on them.
Speaking of work, work also gave me COVID! Due to new rules here that say kindergartens and schools must stay open at basically all costs, a coworker had to go to work on a day where she was 99% sure she was positive but was just waiting for her test to come back. I was obliged to only get tested on day 3 and day 7 after the contact, but I was a smart cookie and got tested every day, up to day 9, when the test came back positive. My PCR came back positive as well. It's day 3 since my test and I feel absolutely fine - every cold I had in the past year has been an uphill struggle compared to this, and I spent basically this entire winter sick as a dog. And I wasn't even as disciplined with the liquids and the vitamins and the good food as and rest this time as I am every time I get a cold - the vaccine did this job for me.
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Test came back negative. :tup I'm Zero for 3 and fine with that.
That's awesome Orbert!
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Great news (for a bad situation), Milena.
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Yeah, I think so too. I wish we could get a vaccine for the common cold too :sadpanda:
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Yeah, I think so too. I wish we could get a vaccine for the common cold too :sadpanda:
Yeah, I myself believe that sicknesses and diseases are just a part of life. And these outcomes relate to our decisions as humans both individually and collectively.
If we talk about the air we breathe and how there are chemicals in the air. You can say that all these pollutants are causing our sickness. But will those businesses speak the truth if it's their industrial factories spewing the pollutants causing us to get sick. Will they say that it's those pollutants that are causing these sicknesses and diseases. What if it's the stuff archaeologists dug up like King Tut's tomb or some other sacred site. In my culture, we abandoned places for various reasons, it's why we left places like Chaco Canyon. These were to be left alone and left to wither, but kept there for us to remember from stories passed down. We bury it and leave it be.
We even have a story about sickness in our emergence story. That one bad person came up into this world, and thus caused sickness on a little boy.
For me personally, there's just so much other things out there that cause us sickness and illness more so than Covid. Why are we not focusing on those issues? Like the pollution of the land, sea, and air. Oil spills, air pollution, depletion of soil/destruction of land, are all issues that does affect humans and the quality of life we have.
Then you consider the rise of the Industrial Revolution and it's effects of causing people to become congested in a small area, urbanization.
I believe we humans do things that have either beneficial consequences or detrimental consequences. Yet, are we wise enough to realize and understand whether the outcome is a beneficial or detrimental consequence?
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Finally sat down and read through the past month of posts here. I'm sorry for all those who have been touched in some way by this, and glad that most managed to get through in spite of being inflicted with it.
Man, I finally look at the recent numbers for the USA, because newscasts just give us 'percentages' and https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Damn! So many are lackadaisical in the simple safeguards, and yet we're still losing thousands a day.
One quick story: our school system is no different than others, what with illnesses, staffing shortages, etc. A friend of twenty years, who works for the County as an computer programmer and online teacher of teachers, was forced to substitute teach in person over the past two months for three days a week. She had not taught grade school in fifteen years! Some days its a five mile commute, other days forty miles (seventy minutes). She is less than 2 1/2 years from retirement. She called my wife while in tears on Friday, having called in sick, and asking various financial advice in regards to early retirement. She's the main bread winner, with one daughter still two years away from graduating college. And now there is talk of not having the kids mask!?!?!? Why they don't just go back to online instruction for the next month as these numbers skyrocket, I'll never understand.
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Finally sat down and read through the past month of posts here. I'm sorry for all those who have been touched in some way by this, and glad that most managed to get through in spite of being inflicted with it.
Man, I finally look at the recent numbers for the USA, because newscasts just give us 'percentages' and https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Damn! So many are lackadaisical in the simple safeguards, and yet we're still losing thousands a day.
One quick story: our school system is no different than others, what with illnesses, staffing shortages, etc. A friend of twenty years, who works for the County as an computer programmer and online teacher of teachers, was forced to substitute teach in person over the past two months for three days a week. She had not taught grade school in fifteen years! Some days its a five mile commute, other days forty miles (seventy minutes). She is less than 2 1/2 years from retirement. She called my wife while in tears on Friday, having called in sick, and asking various financial advice in regards to early retirement. She's the main bread winner, with one daughter still two years away from graduating college. And now there is talk of not having the kids mask!?!?!? Why they don't just go back to online instruction for the next month as these numbers skyrocket, I'll never understand.
You know what happened here. There was a cyberattack on the schools main system and the teachers couldn't update attendance and grades so they closed the schools down until it got resolved. I am sure these will continue. And I laugh because I wonder why the schools do not have a fail-safe for if the technology doesnt want to work and they can't fix it?
But, how was your friend forced to teach?
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^
You know that old caveat that exists in most union contracts: 'Management has the rights to manage, as long as it does not violate the terms of the contract'. Well, they the system is so short on substitute teachers, that she HAS to fill in (since part of her tech job requires her to still be licensed to teach). So, if she refuses work, she gets fired. :censored
I forgot to add one little trivial item to my prior post. All of our local TV stations will put up this number for example: 3000 Covid hospitalizations, and just below that will be an up or down arrow from the prior day's total. Let's say the prior day was 3200, so today's total would be 200 less. They 'always' say that means 200 people were released.
No, it doesn't! It means that there was a NET decrease of 200 hospitalizations! As I said, it's trivial, but it drives me crazy
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^
You know that old caveat that exists in most union contracts: 'Management has the rights to manage, as long as it does not violate the terms of the contract'. Well, they the system is so short on substitute teachers, that she HAS to fill in (since part of her tech job requires her to still be licensed to teach). So, if she refuses work, she gets fired. :censored
That just shows me there's a problem with the system. At the end of the day though, she did agree to those terms when she signed onto the job. All jobs have these sorts of conditions where if you refuse to work, then you'll be fired, and these conditions vary, and you agree to them when you accept the job position. An example is, if you want to work in a hospital right now, the conditions to work include having a covid vaccine. If one doesn't want to work at the hospital, could one possibly start their own medical practice if they're licensed doctors? Could one become a private tutor if they don't want to work in the schools?
This makes me wonder what ever happened to these types of jobs where people hired private tutors, or would have a local physician who would come to their home and do a check up of their health?
I also wonder too, if you're not getting paid enough, or don't like your work environment, and you have the qualifications. Why not become a private instructor/physician and charge your own rates for your services? What is preventing people from accomplishing or beginning this task?
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Finally, a great treatment for those that don't want the vaccine!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/01/11/urine-therapy-latest-covid-antidote/9169167002/
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:lol
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Why they don't just go back to online instruction for the next month as these numbers skyrocket, I'll never understand.
Because online learning does not work for a vast number of kids and puts an undue burden on parents. There is a downstream effect that should be considered. My wife, a teacher, has been monitoring the situation at her school closely. Many of her kids are medically fragile, and either getting sick (with Covid or other cold/flu bug) or staying home out of caution at a higher rate. But the school in general has seen only a small number of Covid cases. Some classes had to be remote for 5 days (I believe) due to a illnesses among staff and kids, which many teachers is not worth the trouble to switch and then switch back so quickly. But at least here where I am following, the numbers are not skyrocketing in schools.
You know what happened here. There was a cyberattack on the schools main system and the teachers couldn't update attendance and grades so they closed the schools down until it got resolved.
They couldn't just write down who was there on a piece of paper and update the system when it is back online? That reminds me of the King of the Hill where Hank went to buy something, and the store's system went down and thus couldn't complete a sale, and Hank couldn't understand why the clerk couldn't just write him a receipt.
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Why they don't just go back to online instruction for the next month as these numbers skyrocket, I'll never understand.
Because online learning does not work for a vast number of kids and puts an undue burden on parents. There is a downstream effect that should be considered. My wife, a teacher, has been monitoring the situation at her school closely. Many of her kids are medically fragile, and either getting sick (with Covid or other cold/flu bug) or staying home out of caution at a higher rate. But the school in general has seen only a small number of Covid cases. Some classes had to be remote for 5 days (I believe) due to a illnesses among staff and kids, which many teachers is not worth the trouble to switch and then switch back so quickly. But at least here where I am following, the numbers are not skyrocketing in schools.
The idea that schools were especially bad for spreading COVID intuitively made sense but has never been supported by data. Don't understand why this idea has been so sticky.
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Finally, a great treatment for those that don't want the vaccine!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/01/11/urine-therapy-latest-covid-antidote/9169167002/
Bear Grylls has been using this therapy for years!
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Why they don't just go back to online instruction for the next month as these numbers skyrocket, I'll never understand.
Because online learning does not work for a vast number of kids and puts an undue burden on parents. There is a downstream effect that should be considered. My wife, a teacher, has been monitoring the situation at her school closely. Many of her kids are medically fragile, and either getting sick (with Covid or other cold/flu bug) or staying home out of caution at a higher rate. But the school in general has seen only a small number of Covid cases. Some classes had to be remote for 5 days (I believe) due to a illnesses among staff and kids, which many teachers is not worth the trouble to switch and then switch back so quickly. But at least here where I am following, the numbers are not skyrocketing in schools.
You know what happened here. There was a cyberattack on the schools main system and the teachers couldn't update attendance and grades so they closed the schools down until it got resolved.
They couldn't just write down who was there on a piece of paper and update the system when it is back online? That reminds me of the King of the Hill where Hank went to buy something, and the store's system went down and thus couldn't complete a sale, and Hank couldn't understand why the clerk couldn't just write him a receipt.
I know my stepson did online work for about 2/3 of a school year, and honestly, he didn't learn a damn thing that entire time. It was lost time in terms of his education.
I feel bad for anyone that is put in the line of fire, so to speak, but the issue isn't, in my opinion, as simple as "endanger workers" or "teach online". The repurcussions go well beyond that. What will we be like ten years from now, with the current generation a year or two or three behind the curve?
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It's a balancing act, for sure. My kid, for example, is naturally introverted, and had the last year and a half of high school and first year (so far) of college completely remote, and it's been a positive for them.
Not sure what the right answer is going forward for schools. It's tough.
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My kids fit somewhere between Hef's and Stads'. I wouldn't say they're thriving, but they're making due (for the most part) just fine.
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Finally, a great treatment for those that don't want the vaccine!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/01/11/urine-therapy-latest-covid-antidote/9169167002/
Articles like this are disinformation through implication.
I have never heard of this guy before I read this USA today story. Aside from articles reporting on him and his work, I cannot find any trace of him in the Internet (even using DuckDuckGo or Brave Search. One of the articles linked to his website, but that website doesn't show for me on search). His Twitter account was banned but it should still appear on search engines. I looked at a couple stories about this guy and none of them really get into the reach he has.
Absent evidence to the contrary, I have to assume that this individual has no real following whatsoever, or else the media sources reporting on him would talk about that. But reporting on something as absurd as drinking urine to cure COVID is an easy dunk for reporters who need to put out content. While I can't analyze the motivations of each news outlet that published the story, the effect this has is to create the impression this is some kind of actual movement when it really isn't.
And the outcome of creating that impression is... exactly the post I'm quoting. Another excuse to demonize people.
-
Finally, a great treatment for those that don't want the vaccine!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/01/11/urine-therapy-latest-covid-antidote/9169167002/
Articles like this are disinformation through implication.
I have never heard of this guy before I read this USA today story. Aside from articles reporting on him and his work, I cannot find any trace of him in the Internet (even using DuckDuckGo or Brave Search. One of the articles linked to his website, but that website doesn't show for me on search). His Twitter account was banned but it should still appear on search engines. I looked at a couple stories about this guy and none of them really get into the reach he has.
Absent evidence to the contrary, I have to assume that this individual has no real following whatsoever, or else the media sources reporting on him would talk about that. But reporting on something as absurd as drinking urine to cure COVID is an easy dunk for reporters who need to put out content. While I can't analyze the motivations of each news outlet that published the story, the effect this has is to create the impression this is some kind of actual movement when it really isn't.
And the outcome of creating that impression is... exactly the post I'm quoting. Another excuse to demonize people.
I dunno dude, this story is over a month old. Hell, even Jimmy Kimmel was making fun of him on show in early January. There's video of him out there.
-
Finally, a great treatment for those that don't want the vaccine!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/01/11/urine-therapy-latest-covid-antidote/9169167002/
Articles like this are disinformation through implication.
I have never heard of this guy before I read this USA today story. Aside from articles reporting on him and his work, I cannot find any trace of him in the Internet (even using DuckDuckGo or Brave Search. One of the articles linked to his website, but that website doesn't show for me on search). His Twitter account was banned but it should still appear on search engines. I looked at a couple stories about this guy and none of them really get into the reach he has.
Absent evidence to the contrary, I have to assume that this individual has no real following whatsoever, or else the media sources reporting on him would talk about that. But reporting on something as absurd as drinking urine to cure COVID is an easy dunk for reporters who need to put out content. While I can't analyze the motivations of each news outlet that published the story, the effect this has is to create the impression this is some kind of actual movement when it really isn't.
And the outcome of creating that impression is... exactly the post I'm quoting. Another excuse to demonize people.
I dunno dude, this story is over a month old. Hell, even Jimmy Kimmel was making fun of him on show in early January. There's video of him out there.
Within what I'm suggesting, Kimmel making fun of him is exactly what you'd expect. Exaggerate the story's profile by putting it on one of the major late night talk shows.
-
Finally, a great treatment for those that don't want the vaccine!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/01/11/urine-therapy-latest-covid-antidote/9169167002/
Articles like this are disinformation through implication.
I have never heard of this guy before I read this USA today story. Aside from articles reporting on him and his work, I cannot find any trace of him in the Internet (even using DuckDuckGo or Brave Search. One of the articles linked to his website, but that website doesn't show for me on search). His Twitter account was banned but it should still appear on search engines. I looked at a couple stories about this guy and none of them really get into the reach he has.
Absent evidence to the contrary, I have to assume that this individual has no real following whatsoever, or else the media sources reporting on him would talk about that. But reporting on something as absurd as drinking urine to cure COVID is an easy dunk for reporters who need to put out content. While I can't analyze the motivations of each news outlet that published the story, the effect this has is to create the impression this is some kind of actual movement when it really isn't.
And the outcome of creating that impression is... exactly the post I'm quoting. Another excuse to demonize people.
I dunno dude, this story is over a month old. Hell, even Jimmy Kimmel was making fun of him on show in early January. There's video of him out there.
Within what I'm suggesting, Kimmel making fun of him is exactly what you'd expect. Exaggerate the story's profile by putting it on one of the major late night talk shows.
Well I would watch the video of him telling his audience this and judge for yourself. It's pretty gross but hey - if that's his kink........
-
Finally, a great treatment for those that don't want the vaccine!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/01/11/urine-therapy-latest-covid-antidote/9169167002/
Articles like this are disinformation through implication.
I have never heard of this guy before I read this USA today story. Aside from articles reporting on him and his work, I cannot find any trace of him in the Internet (even using DuckDuckGo or Brave Search. One of the articles linked to his website, but that website doesn't show for me on search). His Twitter account was banned but it should still appear on search engines. I looked at a couple stories about this guy and none of them really get into the reach he has.
Absent evidence to the contrary, I have to assume that this individual has no real following whatsoever, or else the media sources reporting on him would talk about that. But reporting on something as absurd as drinking urine to cure COVID is an easy dunk for reporters who need to put out content. While I can't analyze the motivations of each news outlet that published the story, the effect this has is to create the impression this is some kind of actual movement when it really isn't.
And the outcome of creating that impression is... exactly the post I'm quoting. Another excuse to demonize people.
I dunno dude, this story is over a month old. Hell, even Jimmy Kimmel was making fun of him on show in early January. There's video of him out there.
Within what I'm suggesting, Kimmel making fun of him is exactly what you'd expect. Exaggerate the story's profile by putting it on one of the major late night talk shows.
Yeah, I'm sort of with you on that. I was a RELIGIOUS watcher of Johnny Carson and David Letterman. They had their moments touching on issues of the day, but it was done with subtlety, deftness and intellect. I actually watch ZERO late night now because in my opinion, their overwhelming snark and judgment is a sledgehammer that has made the situation far worse, not better.
-
Finally, a great treatment for those that don't want the vaccine!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/01/11/urine-therapy-latest-covid-antidote/9169167002/
Articles like this are disinformation through implication.
I have never heard of this guy before I read this USA today story. Aside from articles reporting on him and his work, I cannot find any trace of him in the Internet (even using DuckDuckGo or Brave Search. One of the articles linked to his website, but that website doesn't show for me on search). His Twitter account was banned but it should still appear on search engines. I looked at a couple stories about this guy and none of them really get into the reach he has.
Absent evidence to the contrary, I have to assume that this individual has no real following whatsoever, or else the media sources reporting on him would talk about that. But reporting on something as absurd as drinking urine to cure COVID is an easy dunk for reporters who need to put out content. While I can't analyze the motivations of each news outlet that published the story, the effect this has is to create the impression this is some kind of actual movement when it really isn't.
And the outcome of creating that impression is... exactly the post I'm quoting. Another excuse to demonize people.
I dunno dude, this story is over a month old. Hell, even Jimmy Kimmel was making fun of him on show in early January. There's video of him out there.
Within what I'm suggesting, Kimmel making fun of him is exactly what you'd expect. Exaggerate the story's profile by putting it on one of the major late night talk shows.
Yeah, I'm sort of with you on that. I was a RELIGIOUS watcher of Johnny Carson and David Letterman. They had their moments touching on issues of the day, but it was done with subtlety, deftness and intellect. I actually watch ZERO late night now because in my opinion, their overwhelming snark and judgment is a sledgehammer that has made the situation far worse, not better.
Jimmy Kimmel is hardly a sledgehammer in this clip. Christopher Key deserves all the sledgehammers he can take. They guys a freaking kook!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtozQEsw7RM
Around the 6:00 minute mark.
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I can't watch it now; I'll watch it when I'm home (firewalls). But I'll give you that generally: Jimmy Fallon is a corporate shill, he's the current generation's Jay Leno; harmless and inoffensive. He's Elton John. Jimmy Kimmel is a courser version of that. He's Billy Joel. The rest of them, Steven Colbert, Seth Meyers... they're all looking to out-snark each other and be "relevant". They're the Neil Young's of the world.
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edit: nevermind, I misread the post
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Some excellent news out of Sweden and other European countries today as covid is downgraded from a dangerous disease and restrictions are ended :tup
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Jimmy Fallon is a corporate shill, he's the current generation's Jay Leno; harmless and inoffensive. He's Elton John.
Man... Comparing Fallon and Leno to Elton John is the most disagreeable thing in this thread.
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Jimmy Fallon is a corporate shill, he's the current generation's Jay Leno; harmless and inoffensive. He's Elton John.
Man... Comparing Fallon and Leno to Elton John is the most disagreeable thing in this thread.
Agreed
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Some excellent news out of Sweden and other European countries today as covid is downgraded from a dangerous disease and restrictions are ended :tup
Some major cities in the US are removing mask and vaccine mandates as well. Locally here in NJ, daily cases are getting close to back to where they were before omnicron. It burned through so fast. Hopefully the last major wave, but who knows. This definitely didn't turn out to be the doom and gloom wave some predicted.
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I'm cool with relaxing vaccine and mask mandates. Kids younger than 5 should hopefully be able to be vaccinated soon.
We're still waiting on the Illinois school mask mandate lawsuit decision and the more I think about it, the more I realize that kids can't wear masks forever. I won't see it as a victory for freedom/rights, like other parents view it, but it would be nice for my kids to have a normal school experience. To me, it's just a sign that covid is becoming manageable.
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I'm cool with relaxing vaccine and mask mandates. Kids younger than 5 should hopefully be able to be vaccinated soon.
Looks like Sweden are against vaccine for ages 5-11, as well. Which really has made me wonder about whether I'd get my own vaccinated, especially when he already had it:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-decides-against-recommending-covid-vaccines-kids-aged-5-12-2022-01-27/
At any rate, I'd have plenty of questions for the Pediatrician before agreeing to it.
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I'm cool with relaxing vaccine and mask mandates. Kids younger than 5 should hopefully be able to be vaccinated soon.
Looks like Sweden are against vaccine for ages 5-11, as well. Which really has made me wonder about whether I'd get my own vaccinated, especially when he already had it:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-decides-against-recommending-covid-vaccines-kids-aged-5-12-2022-01-27/
At any rate, I'd have plenty of questions for the Pediatrician before agreeing to it.
I completely disagree with what Sweden is recommending in that article.
We have a great pediatrician - the office has a standard vaccine schedule. You agree to what the doctors recommend (traditional childhood vaccinations) or you aren't allowed to be a patient there. They are wonderful and open to parent's thoughts, but they also put their foot down and won't be pushed around by anti-vax parents. The office has strongly recommended covid vaccines for kids.
As for COVID vaccines, I simply don't want my kids to be sick. They get flu shots every year, and the covid vaccine is essentially the same. The viruses are related, and the vaccines do the same thing - prevent serious illness. The vaccine kept my 6 year old from getting too sick - she came down with Omicron, had a fever for 12 hours and cold symptoms for 2 days. THAT'S ALL. Adults in this thread that had Omicron were more sick than she was and for a longer period of time. Unvaccinated kids are symptomatic for longer, and can end up becoming seriously ill - Delta is still going around too, and that was putting hundreds of kids in the hospital in the US last fall. Being vaccinated also kept her (and my wife and I) from transmitting the virus to our unvaccinated son.
Some kids are also getting Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome after contracting covid, experiencing organ inflammation, and other kids have developed insulin-dependent diabetes after having covid as well. I will do whatever it takes to keep my kids protected from Covid. The vaccine is nothing to be concerned about. If parents want to talk to doctors about it, that's great, but using a tool to prevent illness isn't a bad thing.
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My pediatrician friend has been suggesting his patients get vaccinated but hasn't been pushing it hard on the parents who are skeptical because covid generally isn't a big deal for children. But he does make an emphasis on getting it if the child has any sort of health issues that could make a covid infection worse. And of course he recommends the parents be vaccinated most importantly.
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Jimmy Fallon is a corporate shill, he's the current generation's Jay Leno; harmless and inoffensive. He's Elton John.
Man... Comparing Fallon and Leno to Elton John is the most disagreeable thing in this thread.
Agreed
Haha, you disagree?
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Jimmy Fallon is a corporate shill, he's the current generation's Jay Leno; harmless and inoffensive. He's Elton John.
Man... Comparing Fallon and Leno to Elton John is the most disagreeable thing in this thread.
Agreed
Haha, you disagree?
I would never characterize Elton John as inoffensive.
Not that he's overly offensive, mind you. But Fallen and Leno are definitely milk and toast, while many people I have know would consider Elton John to be QUITE offensive.
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Plus Elton John is Elton John. Leno and Fallon are medium talents. Respect the hustle (they're in those jobs, I'm not) but come on now.
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Plus Elton John is Elton John. Leno and Fallon are medium talents. Respect the hustle (they're in those jobs, I'm not) but come on now.
There is that, as well.
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Jimmy Fallon is a corporate shill, he's the current generation's Jay Leno; harmless and inoffensive. He's Elton John.
Man... Comparing Fallon and Leno to Elton John is the most disagreeable thing in this thread.
Agreed
Haha, you disagree?
I would never characterize Elton John as inoffensive.
Not that he's overly offensive, mind you. But Fallen and Leno are definitely milk and toast, while many people I have know would consider Elton John to be QUITE offensive.
Okay, that's not where I thought you would go, but fair enough. I see that. I was thinking more along the lines of the shows I've seen, which for Elton are more like Vegas spectacles, something for everyone, but I see your point.
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Plus Elton John is Elton John. Leno and Fallon are medium talents. Respect the hustle (they're in those jobs, I'm not) but come on now.
There is that, as well.
Well, I don't disagree with you on this either, but I was taking the high road. I figure they both filled in, at some length, for the immortal Johnny Carson. Personally, they couldn't get a cup of coffee for Johnny Carson, but they both captained the flagship nighttime show, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I didn't let my personal preference stand in the way of the analogy.
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Fallon never filled in for Carson. He was just a baby.
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Fallon probably came out of the womb already laughing.
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Fallon never filled in for Carson. He was just a baby.
He's the host of the Tonight Show. I didn't mean actually filled in for Johnny as guest host. I meant metaphorically standing in for the great one. No one, in my eyes, can replace Johnny Carson, so everyone after is just "filling in".
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Fallon never filled in for Carson. He was just a baby.
He's the host of the Tonight Show. I didn't mean actually filled in for Johnny as guest host. I meant metaphorically standing in for the great one. No one, in my eyes, can replace Johnny Carson, so everyone after is just "filling in".
Letterman was pretty close back in the 80s, before he went to CBS and became a bit soft on celebs, but Carson is still the man. :tup :tup
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Plus Elton John is Elton John. Leno and Fallon are medium talents. Respect the hustle (they're in those jobs, I'm not) but come on now.
There is that, as well.
Well, I don't disagree with you on this either, but I was taking the high road. I figure they both filled in, at some length, for the immortal Johnny Carson. Personally, they couldn't get a cup of coffee for Johnny Carson, but they both captained the flagship nighttime show, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I didn't let my personal preference stand in the way of the analogy.
To focus on the broader point you're making - Entertainment can be broadly appealing and family friendly without indulging the most simplistic and authority friendly narratives the culture has to offer. Entertainment can be both broadly appealing AND be well made in a way that sharp consumers pick up on.
Caron, of course, is one of the quintessential examples. Beloved by middle America and aspiring comedians of the era. If you're going to compare Elton to anyone really it should be Carson. Leno/Fallon are more like Nickleback. Competently made. Not terrible. But not much there.
Fallon probably came out of the womb already laughing.
Too real man
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Fallon never filled in for Carson. He was just a baby.
He's the host of the Tonight Show. I didn't mean actually filled in for Johnny as guest host. I meant metaphorically standing in for the great one. No one, in my eyes, can replace Johnny Carson, so everyone after is just "filling in".
Oh for God's sake.
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Fallon probably came out of the womb already laughing.
Too real man
I don't watch Fallon unless I see YT clips of him with select stars I want to see, but I have nothing against him. It's just hilarious how he can never stop himself from laughing. Even in the famous BOL cowbell skit, he is the drummer and literally has one line and laughs his way through it.
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Fallon probably came out of the womb already laughing.
Too real man
I don't watch Fallon unless I see YT clips of him with select stars I want to see, but I have nothing against him. It's just hilarious how he can never stop himself from laughing. Even in the famous BOL cowbell skit, he is the drummer and literally has one line and laughs his way through it.
iT'S juSt sO cHArMiNG aNd eNDeArInG
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Plus Elton John is Elton John. Leno and Fallon are medium talents. Respect the hustle (they're in those jobs, I'm not) but come on now.
There is that, as well.
Well, I don't disagree with you on this either, but I was taking the high road. I figure they both filled in, at some length, for the immortal Johnny Carson. Personally, they couldn't get a cup of coffee for Johnny Carson, but they both captained the flagship nighttime show, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I didn't let my personal preference stand in the way of the analogy.
To focus on the broader point you're making - Entertainment can be broadly appealing and family friendly without indulging the most simplistic and authority friendly narratives the culture has to offer. Entertainment can be both broadly appealing AND be well made in a way that sharp consumers pick up on.
Caron, of course, is one of the quintessential examples. Beloved by middle America and aspiring comedians of the era. If you're going to compare Elton to anyone really it should be Carson. Leno/Fallon are more like Nickleback. Competently made. Not terrible. But not much there.
I hear you; whether we quibble about "who" I think you get my point of how Fallon and Leno fit in the pantheon of late night hosts.
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At least Leno ran a professional, turnkey operation. I popped on a random Fallon clip from Youtube and it felt like neither he nor his writers had ever put on an episode of a late night show before.
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Fallon can be good in a skit situation. But he's a TERRIBLE interviewer.
I think the best person in late night right now is probably Kimmel. Colbert has the intellect to be good, but he spends too much time portraying a fake funny persona. I much preferred him on Comedy Central.
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Some excellent news out of Sweden and other European countries today as covid is downgraded from a dangerous disease and restrictions are ended :tup
Some major cities in the US are removing mask and vaccine mandates as well. Locally here in NJ, daily cases are getting close to back to where they were before omnicron. It burned through so fast. Hopefully the last major wave, but who knows. This definitely didn't turn out to be the doom and gloom wave some predicted.
While I wouldn't use the words "doom and gloom" this omicron wave has definitely acted out as predicted. It has spiked as predicted, declined as predicted and while not as deadly, it has definitely killed a lot of people. People at work have dropped like flies at work and it's been so bad that I haven't been in the office for 2 weeks going on 3. In addition, they have struggled mightily being sick and some people have taken up to 3 weeks or more to fully recover.
It's been seriously disturbing listening to people at work on con-calls sounding like death warmed over.
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Some excellent news out of Sweden and other European countries today as covid is downgraded from a dangerous disease and restrictions are ended :tup
Some major cities in the US are removing mask and vaccine mandates as well. Locally here in NJ, daily cases are getting close to back to where they were before omnicron. It burned through so fast. Hopefully the last major wave, but who knows. This definitely didn't turn out to be the doom and gloom wave some predicted.
While I wouldn't use the words "doom and gloom" this omicron wave has definitely acted out as predicted. It has spiked as predicted, declined as predicted and while not as deadly, it has definitely killed a lot of people. People at work have dropped like flies at work and it's been so bad that I haven't been in the office for 2 weeks going on 3. In addition, they have struggled mightily being sick and some people have taken up to 3 weeks or more to fully recover.
It's been seriously disturbing listening to people at work on con-calls sounding like death warmed over.
No doubt it was disruptive and deadly for a lot of people, but life has moved on fairly quickly. The country didn't shut down. This is more so my point, not to downplay the struggles of the healthcare workers or lack of sympathy for those who have died.
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Quick and easy example of CDC dishonesty: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7106e1.htm
Study purports to demonstrate that wearing masks is effective. Buried in the fine print of the very first image: "Not statistically significant"
After the FOIA'd email chain where the definition of vaccine was changed for political purposes, I can't think this was published for innocent purposes.
EDIT: Old (2020) example, but here's a study where they say that dining indoors creates increased risk of getting COVID... based off of a telephone survey - https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6936a5.htm
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Quick and easy example of CDC dishonesty: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7106e1.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7106e1.htm)
Study purports to demonstrate that wearing masks is effective. Buried in the fine print of the very first image: "Not statistically significant"
If you're going to make a statement like that, you should include the full quote, instead of grabbing onto a term and making it seem like not wearing masks does not work.
Wearing an N95/KN95 respirator (aOR = 0.17; 95% CI = 0.05–0.64) or wearing a surgical mask (aOR = 0.34; 95% CI = 0.13–0.90) was associated with lower adjusted odds of a positive test result compared with not wearing a mask (Table 3). Wearing a cloth mask (aOR = 0.44; 95% CI = 0.17–1.17) was associated with lower adjusted odds of a positive test compared with never wearing a face covering but was not statistically significant.
This is saying that wearing an N95 mask lowers your odds of contracting covid when compared to not wearing a mask. Wearing a cloth mask did lower your odds when compared to never wearing a mask, but the results were "not statistically significant," meaning that they couldn't assign the same level of confidence that they did when comparing N95 masks to not wearing a mask.
In layman's terms, "Wearing an N95 mask provides a stronger defense against contracting covid than wearing a cloth mask, when compared to not wearing a mask at all."
As for your second example about restaurants, again, you're twisting words and trying to make this seem like something that it's not. The cdc was saying that indoor dining can increase your risk of contracting covid, and that social distancing and masking should be implemented to reduce the risk. All of that is true. In July 2020, that was true - there was contract tracing in place that showed outbreaks at restaurants. We had reports like that locally in Chicago quite often.
Try learning to read instead of twisting words to fit your own narrative.
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I still see the words not statistically significant.
This is like the news media reporting on "fiery, but mostly peaceful" protests.
If the cloth mask odds aren't statistically significant, don't put them in a chart as if they are real.
And, once again, we have a telephone survey study instead of a review of data or a randomly controlled trial.
These studies are bullshit. Pointing out imprecisions in wording does not change that.
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I still see the words not statistically significant.
This is like the news media reporting on "fiery, but mostly peaceful" protests.
If the cloth mask odds aren't statistically significant, don't put them in a chart as if they are real.
And, once again, we have a telephone survey study instead of a review of data or a randomly controlled trial.
These studies are bullshit. Pointing out imprecisions in wording does not change that.
The studies aren't bullshit, you're just latching onto a term and running away with it because you think it means something different, rather than thinking about what it actually means. Not statistically significant does not mean "bullshit." It means that there isn't enough of a quantifiable difference.
Basically, wearing a cloth mask will help reduce covid, but it may be due more to the wearer being lucky, as opposed to the actual scientific benefit. I wore a cloth mask for a year and a half when I needed to and never got covid. Maybe I was lucky, maybe it actually worked. I'll never know which - that is what "not statistically significant" means.
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My understanding was that cloth masks were known to be fairly ineffective but just that slight % of effectiveness was useful for slowing spread, especially when this all started. My understanding is also that omnicron is much more likely to slip through a mask so the effectiveness is likely even lower these days, however, it still may be enough to be worthy.
The N95 mask was always known to be the right protection, but that wasn't an option early on due to limited supply. It just sucks our US government only just now is rolling out free N95 masks. That should have been done as soon as supply started filling back up and we wouldn't have to take from the folks most needing the protection in the medical field. We're at a point where a lot of the US doesn't care about covid anymore so rolling out free masks is kind of just a waste at the moment.
Personally, I'm back to being maskless. My covid cough is finally gone, so other than work and public transportation where it's required, I'm maskless again and from my experience, a lot of people around here have started taking them off again as well.
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Here is how the CDC markets this study on Twitter: "A new @CDCMMWR study shows that people who reported always wearing masks or respirators in indoor public settings in California were less likely to test positive for #COVID19 compared with those who reported not wearing a face covering. Learn more."
I am aware that, in statistical terms "not statistically significant" doesn't mean no change was observed at all. But that also means it should not be reported to the public that you concluded wearing a cloth mask makes you less likely to test positive for COVID.
And again, this is a telephone survey.
I do a lot of things that do not have rigorous scientific analysis backing them up, which is fine. Even if it works, that doesn't mean it's science that can be used for public policy or recommendations from what's at least supposed to be a health authority.
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My understanding was that cloth masks were known to be fairly ineffective but just that slight % of effectiveness was useful for slowing spread, especially when this all started. My understanding is also that omnicron is much more likely to slip through a mask so the effectiveness is likely even lower these days, however, it still may be enough to be worthy.
The N95 mask was always known to be the right protection, but that wasn't an option early on due to limited supply. It just sucks our US government only just now is rolling out free N95 masks. That should have been done as soon as supply started filling back up and we wouldn't have to take from the folks most needing the protection in the medical field. We're at a point where a lot of the US doesn't care about covid anymore so rolling out free masks is kind of just a waste at the moment.
Personally, I'm back to being maskless. My covid cough is finally gone, so other than work and public transportation where it's required, I'm maskless again and from my experience, a lot of people around here have started taking them off again as well.
This is 100% my understanding from the beginning as well.
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Fallon can be good in a skit situation. But he's a TERRIBLE interviewer.
I think the best person in late night right now is probably Kimmel. Colbert has the intellect to be good, but he spends too much time portraying a fake funny persona. I much preferred him on Comedy Central.
I was really disappointed when Colbert moved away from CC
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Fallon can be good in a skit situation. But he's a TERRIBLE interviewer.
I think the best person in late night right now is probably Kimmel. Colbert has the intellect to be good, but he spends too much time portraying a fake funny persona. I much preferred him on Comedy Central.
I was really disappointed when Colbert moved away from CC
The reality is as a performer Colbert is not comfortable with going on a stage and putting on a sincere persona. He always has to have some wrapper around it. I don't know of any Late Night host this worked for.
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So we were talking about my daughter's upcoming 11th birthday, and the 4-5 friends she wanted to invite, and my wife said she wanted to ensure all those kids were vaccinated. Are we at that point now? Vax cards needed to go to a friend's house? I am not saying my wife is wrong; it is meant as an honest question, and I get it is up to every individual. I just do not know if I am at that point while my wife is.
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So we were talking about my daughter's upcoming 11th birthday, and the 4-5 friends she wanted to invite, and my wife said she wanted to ensure all those kids were vaccinated. Are we at that point now? Vax cards needed to go to a friend's house? I am not saying my wife is wrong; it is meant as an honest question, and I get it is up to every individual. I just do not know if I am at that point while my wife is.
I've been going to friends houses, friends have been seeing me, and kids have been playing together without any concern at all if anyone is vaccinated or not.
As I've said, it's all dependent on a person's mindset and how much they fear this virus.
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It also could have absolutely nothing to do with a fearful mindset and everything to do with employment or other responsibilities.
IIRC Chris' wife is a teacher. Many teachers have already had to quarantine or completely restructure their classrooms because of a Covid outbreak many times. There is only so much sick time given to employees and many have already used all of theirs up.
I know for me personally when I got exposed it caused my contractor to halt work at our house for a week out of caution for protection of him and his employees and other independent contractors (carpet installer, electrician, plumber) who lose money if they cannot work due to Covid.
So I don't assume it is a fear based reaction at all. It could completely be an economic issue, a work flow issue, or "I'm just not wanting to deal with the hassle of being exposed" issue.
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It also could have absolutely nothing to do with a fearful mindset and everything to do with employment or other responsibilities.
IIRC Chris' wife is a teacher. Many teachers have already had to quarantine or completely restructure their classrooms because of a Covid outbreak many times. There is only so much sick time given to employees and many have already used all of theirs up.
I know for me personally when I got exposed it caused my contractor to halt work at our house for a week out of caution for protection of him and his employees and other independent contractors (carpet installer, electrician, plumber) who lose money if they cannot work due to Covid.
So I don't assume it is a fear based reaction at all. It could completely be an economic issue, a work flow issue, or "I'm just not wanting to deal with the hassle of being exposed" issue.
But, in the end, they are still concerned or worried about possible outcomes.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-choice/201812/anxiety-vs-fear
Anxiety is seldom pathological, even when intense, until it becomes chronic and consistently interferes with performance and enjoyment of life. When anxiety is excessive and disconnected from reality, it no longer provides an accurate and reliable signal of danger. Thus you might feel anxious thinking about an important exam, going to a dinner party where you don’t know people, or traveling to an unfamiliar place. These anxious thoughts are driven by “what if?” thinking (e.g., “What if I don’t do all my studies?” or “What if I don’t know anyone?”).
Now think of this...If one of her friends she wanted to invite is unvaccinated and she can't attend her friends party. How will that child be affected mentally because she couldn't attend her friends party that they will be discussing and talking all about at school? That child would feel left out of the in-group discussion that was had at the party, in which she becomes the outsider to the discussion of the party.
This pandemic is really affecting people's mindsets. And I am noticing this a lot with people's behaviors, attitudes, and the ways they are actually interacting with others. Some mindsets have changed while others have not, meaning their behaviors and attitudes to those closest to them or, in general, others has not changed. Some people don't even care at all what another person does, but will do whatever to prevent themselves from the others actions.
A great way to witness people's mindsets are while driving. I have a friend who will assume the car in front of her on the slow lane is going to pass the car ahead and will drive slower until they do pass. I tell her, that's what the blinker is for, just pass them and keep going. But people don't use their blinkers, which is why she assumes the other person is suddenly going to jump in front of her and pass, causing her to brake and possibly slide. I actually laughed one time because she got herself frustrated and stressed out because of these assumptions, and I was all to myself, "Well, if you would've went this way instead of going the way you did you wouldn't be frustrated, but you didn't want to drive down this other street because of whatever. :biggrin:
Basically, Cool Chris, my answer is...If people want to go to those lengths to protect themselves, why not. But, there are also outcomes that can have effects mentally and socially that many people are unaware of until the outcome comes to fruition.
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Good memory Harmony, yes she is a teacher and works with some medically fragile (her words) kids. That has informed many of her decisions over the past two years related to Covid. But this one was based strictly on our family. She said we have done too much for too long to let our guard down and potentially expose ourselves to Covid (her words, paraphrased). While sound reasoning, I wasn't sure I was ready to make the leap to verifying any guests in my house have been vaccinated, especially since now it apparently(?) has less of an affect on transmission to others. My family is vaccinated (except for our 4 year old) as we decided that is best for our family. I would ask (and hope) if someone was experiencing any symptoms they would not come over, and maybe that should be the case any time. Some people are requesting guests be vaccinated, that is fine, it is their home. I just don't know if I am ready to do that.
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Chris, I hate to even make a comment, as it is your family and I respect that. Honestly the only thing that I could think of is your 11 y/o getting caught in the middle of this. To think that she may have a friend not be able to come over I would think would be upsetting to her.
Are you friends with any of her friends' parents? Is it possibly to hold the party outside as a compromise of some sort? Maybe celebrate with your immediate family first, including grandparents, before the kid party?
I feel like as far as Covid goes, we take are chances all day every day no matter what we go or where we go.. Nothing is normal, but I would stress to my wife that an 11 y/o's birthday party should be the exception. All she wants is her birthday, I would assume.
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I feel the same; she shouldn't be kept apart from a friend if her parents didn't want to get her vaxxed. The past two years we have had a small family birthday party (my parents and sister's family) and then small party with a couple friends. Christmas and Thanksgiving have been with immediate family. We have done all we reasonably could to make sure birthdays, holidays, and such are as "normal" as possible.
We are friendly with her friends' parents to the point where asking if they have been vaxxed shouldn't be (too) awkward.
But again, if being vaxxed doesn't affect transmission, why does it matter? If they have symptoms, stay home. Just as if it was 2019, I would hope a friend or their parents would say "hey, sorry I can't come, I think I have a cold."
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I'm letting my kids do things like kids birthday parties. It's not really up to me to ask some other family if their kids are vaccinated and that would likely upset a lot of families around us to even ask that question. My 6 year old is vaccinated, so I'm fine with it.
I've been following the Illinois school drama all weekend - Friday evening, the courts determined that our governor's mandatory mask mandate in schools is a violation of civil rights/due process. You can't force people to do something they don't' want to do, and you can't force them to be quarantined (excluded) from school without due process. There are processes in place for suspensions or kids being expelled - you don't just say "well you can't come to school for 5 days because we say so." The judge had a scathing rebuke to the governor and asked that all school districts in the state "govern themselves accordingly." According to the judge's ruling, or according to the district's own decisions, isn't spelled out - it's left open to interpretation.
Many school districts used the ruling to go mask optional, including in neighboring towns. If your school was a defendant (142 districts) then you were forced into that change. Our school district took a "wait and see" approach, since the appeal will be decided in two weeks. They also advised that they are forming a committee to create an endemic plan to move us out of the hard masking/quarantining rules with parent/staff/teacher input. Masks are still required until further notice.
This outraged many anti-mask parents, who feel that the judge's ruling prevents them from doing so, and our schools are going to face a bunch of angry parents trying to push their way around this morning. It's really sad to see teachers and staff in the crossfire - one dad actually said that he's done respecting teachers because the teachers haven't respected his kids. How have things devolved to this level of anger towards educators, and even doctors? I feel bad for the kids and the school staff - my daughter is very likely to see a bunch of drama while at school today, as there will be plenty of parents sending their kids without masks in order to try and force the schools into submission.
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How have things devolved to this level of anger towards educators, and even doctors?
Do you not understand why parents would be enraged by their children being muzzled?
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How have things devolved to this level of anger towards educators, and even doctors?
Do you not understand why parents would be enraged by their children being muzzled?
I don't see it like that at all. I see it as having compassion towards others. Asian society has used masks in public long before covid, and it's because they have respect for other people. But not in this "me, my, I" American society. How dare we have a little empathy for another family?
I have a degree in community health and I've always viewed the pandemic from that area, as opposed to an individual view. I have no problem doing what is best for the common good instead of what is best for me. My daughter has flourished in school - having a mask on is annoying, but she understands the reasoning for it.
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How have things devolved to this level of anger towards educators, and even doctors?
Do you not understand why parents would be enraged by their children being muzzled?
I can't understand how a parent could look at a tiny piece of blue fabric, something used for decades by doctors and used to prevent the spread of germs, and think "muzzle".
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I don't see it like that at all. I see it as having compassion towards others. Asian society has used masks in public long before covid, and it's because they have respect for other people. But not in this "me, my, I" American society. How dare we have a little empathy for another family?
Pre-2020 article on mask wearing in East Asia - https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/mask-appeal
Note there is an addictive component due to their perceived ability to hide against social interaction. They are not a purely pro-social behavior over there.
You also have to understand mask wearing in the context of Japanese culture, where even touching your nose when you're eating is seen as a major faux pas. I would theorize that it's less about a belief in the ability of a mask to contain air particles than it is about controlling sneezing or breathing with what are perceived over there as gross breath.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1467-9566.2012.01466.x - This article talks about it in more depth. Their masking only really got into gear during the 2004 Avian flu epidemic (can somewhat confirm this. I was young and it was long ago, but I don't recall seeing a single mask when I was over there).
Perhaps worst of all, people there were masking because they thought it should shield against radioactive isotopes! - https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2011-may-16-la-fg-japan-surgical-masks-20110515-story.html
Inasmuch as masking in Japan is related to any genuine sense of the collective good (and I'm not sure it is), it paints a dark portrait of a dark possible future in America.
I have a degree in community health and I've always viewed the pandemic from that area, as opposed to an individual view. I have no problem doing what is best for the common good instead of what is best for me. My daughter has flourished in school - having a mask on is annoying, but she understands the reasoning for it.
When I thought masks actually did anything I wore mine too. I prefer to be helpful. But most of the United States does not even require you to perform CPR when you see someone in front of you who is not breathing. We do not want to put people into situations where they can be blamed for their actions when they do not actively hurt anyone.
So let's say you walk into a gas station with ten people in it without a mask on. What % higher chance do those people have of dying of COVID if you wear a cloth mask or an N95? How do you measure that number? What number then is acceptable for telling people that their freedom gets taken away?
And, while I was checking the CPR thing, I found this recommendation from the Red Cross that masks be worn while giving CPR - https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/coronavirus-information/first-aid-cpr-aed-care-during-covid-19
I don't know in what universe wearing a mask when giving CPR isn't just insanity. From what I understand CPR has a pretty low success rate to begin with and now we're reducing the airflow of the breaths by wearing a mask!?!?!? All to maybe sorta stop COVID?
I'd bet a few hundred dollars that more people have been killed by wearing masks during CPR than have been saved by all the past nearly two years of general mask wearing. But I concede there's no way really to measure it.
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How have things devolved to this level of anger towards educators, and even doctors?
Do you not understand why parents would be enraged by their children being muzzled?
I can't understand how a parent could look at a tiny piece of blue fabric, something used for decades by doctors and used to prevent the spread of germs, and think "muzzle".
And using verbiage like this is part of the problem and is the cause of the devolution of rational conversation. Why would parents be enraged by a simple precaution?
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Fallon can be good in a skit situation. But he's a TERRIBLE interviewer.
I think the best person in late night right now is probably Kimmel. Colbert has the intellect to be good, but he spends too much time portraying a fake funny persona. I much preferred him on Comedy Central.
I was really disappointed when Colbert moved away from CC
The reality is as a performer Colbert is not comfortable with going on a stage and putting on a sincere persona. He always has to have some wrapper around it. I don't know of any Late Night host this worked for.
I don't know; I've read some articles that said that Colbert was going to move AWAY from the persona and try to be more authentic on his show. I tend to think that's probably happened; I don't watch him enough to know for sure, but the roster of guests seems to tend away from the character he played on CC and lean into a presentation that is more indicative of his own character. Either way, it's too strident for me, and too... not angry, exactly, but it's of a kind with Seth Meyers; they ridicule so much that it's not illuminating in any way, it's just alienating if you're not in full agreement with the premise.
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How have things devolved to this level of anger towards educators, and even doctors?
Do you not understand why parents would be enraged by their children being muzzled?
I can't understand how a parent could look at a tiny piece of blue fabric, something used for decades by doctors and used to prevent the spread of germs, and think "muzzle".
And using verbiage like this is part of the problem and is the cause of the devolution of rational conversation. Why would parents be enraged by a simple precaution?
Well, you assume they consider it a "simple precaution". That's the problem here. We keep looking at this through our own personal lenses and are flabbergasted that other people aren't doing the same thing. Duh, we're 331 million people, each with their own point of view and own set of experiences. Take Grappler's post: I deeply respect his point of view and appreciate his explanation as to why he arrives at some of the conclusions he does. I think I've been pretty clear over the years here that I'm an attorney, and come at this from a more "legal" point of view, and a libertarian one at that. So for me, the emphasis starts at the individual and moves out from there. He and I, in good faith and through no fault of either of us, are coming at these issues from a completely opposite point of view. It's foolish for me to expect Grappler to by default see things - and that means "defining things the say way" - exactly my way, and vice versa. I would HOPE that through dialogue we could come to understand each other's point of view - "understand" does not mean "adopt" or "agree with", just "understand" - and we can move from there.
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Had a day/night out with my gf and her sister and her best friend to do things the sister wanted to do for her birthday. Just an odd contrast of going into NYC and having to show vaccine cards and wear masks to drink boba tea, but when we got back to NJ (30 miles away) we went to Dave and Busters and it was completely packed, tons of kids, no masks to be seen and it's indoors. No vaccine check to get in. It felt like the old days basically, and that's after having to do every precation. I think people around where I live, central NJ, are over covid (again, it was like this over the summer but December/January saw a lot of people go back into safe mode).
NJ's covid numbers are so low, which I predicted a few weeks ago that come February covid would likely go away, that it feels like it's not even a thing anymore locally. NJ is also set to lift the in school mask mandate leaving public transportation the only remaining covid mask mandate (that I can think of at least).
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Had a day/night out with my gf and her sister and her best friend to do things the sister wanted to do for her birthday. Just an odd contrast of going into NYC and having to show vaccine cards and wear masks to drink boba tea, but when we got back to NJ (30 miles away) we went to Dave and Busters and it was completely packed, tons of kids, no masks to be seen and it's indoors. No vaccine check to get in. It felt like the old days basically, and that's after having to do every precation. I think people around where I live, central NJ, are over covid (again, it was like this over the summer but December/January saw a lot of people go back into safe mode).
NJ's covid numbers are so low, which I predicted a few weeks ago that come February covid would likely go away, that it feels like it's not even a thing anymore locally. NJ is also set to lift the in school mask mandate leaving public transportation the only remaining covid mask mandate (that I can think of at least).
I was in New Jersey a couple months ago and had a similar experience.
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Parents being enraged seems to be all the rage, TBH. Whether it is about masks, books needing to be burned, CRT. I think people just want to be enraged and it doesn't take all that much to bring the torches and pitchforks out.
I often think of my grandparents and great grandparents and all of the things they endured in their life and then I look at all of us in our cushy lives banging away on our keyboards and getting apoplectic over every fucking thing and is like sanity has left this world.
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Parents being enraged seems to be all the rage, TBH. Whether it is about masks, books needing to be burned, CRT. I think people just want to be enraged and it doesn't take all that much to bring the torches and pitchforks out.
I often think of my grandparents and great grandparents and all of the things they endured in their life and then I look at all of us in our cushy lives banging away on our keyboards and getting apoplectic over every fucking thing and is like sanity has left this world.
I hear this loud and clear.
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How have things devolved to this level of anger towards educators, and even doctors?
Do you not understand why parents would be enraged by their children being muzzled?
I don't see it like that at all. I see it as having compassion towards others. Asian society has used masks in public long before covid, and it's because they have respect for other people. But not in this "me, my, I" American society. How dare we have a little empathy for another family?
I have a degree in community health and I've always viewed the pandemic from that area, as opposed to an individual view. I have no problem doing what is best for the common good instead of what is best for me. My daughter has flourished in school - having a mask on is annoying, but she understands the reasoning for it.
That's not all of Asian Society. You're lumping in many different Asian Cultures into one general consensus. Chinese people wear masks because of how bad the pollution is there. Chinese people have no say in what they do.
Japanese people have a very unique culture, in which their behavior is based upon.
American Culture is based on rebels that left Europe because they did not like their current authority. They wanted something new and discovered something they wanted. Since it's inception, those European countries that colonized "America" have shown their behaviors, attitudes, and customs to the Native People of this land. What I see today in those descendants from Europe is no different than what my ancestors saw. It's the same attitudes, behaviors, and customs evolved into the now.
But let me say as well, Businesses do not have compassion and are doing things that are harming others. They're putting out shit that is in fact harming our very health. But yet, people still buy those products and contribute to the development of these toxins that pollute the oceans, the air quality and contaminate the soil.
https://oceansasia.org/covid-19-facemasks/
Our oceans will be flooded with an estimated 1.56 billion face masks in 2020 says a report released today by Hong-Kong-based marine conservation organization OceansAsia. This will result in an additional 4,680 to 6,240 metric tonnes of marine plastic pollution, says the report, entitled “Masks on the Beach: The Impact of COVID-19 on Marine Plastic Pollution.” These masks will take as long as 450 years to break down, slowly turning into micro plastics while negatively impacting marine wildlife and ecosystems.
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I typed up a lengthy, scathing reply on masks and scrapped it. What's the point? No one listens and is unwilling to reason.
I work in healthcare and will continue to wear them, as will my whole family. My son is at school right now and is probably the only one masked. A bunch of yokels sued and had the state school mask mandate overturned. Our Trump-loving district decided to roll with the downstate judge.
Whatever. There is no discourse anymore, just pure hate.
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I typed up a lengthy, scathing reply on masks and scrapped it. What's the point? No one listens and is unwilling to reason.
I work in healthcare and will continue to wear them, as will my whole family. My son is at school right now and is probably the only one masked. A bunch of yokels sued and had the state school mask mandate overturned. Our Trump-loving district decided to roll with the downstate judge.
Whatever. There is no discourse anymore, just pure hate.
I mean dude come on
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I typed up a lengthy, scathing reply on masks and scrapped it. What's the point? No one listens and is unwilling to reason.
I work in healthcare and will continue to wear them, as will my whole family. My son is at school right now and is probably the only one masked. A bunch of yokels sued and had the state school mask mandate overturned. Our Trump-loving district decided to roll with the downstate judge.
Whatever. There is no discourse anymore, just pure hate.
People don't even listen to their doctors and take their advice to stop drinking, to stop eating certain foods, or to start excercising. How do you expect people to listen when they don't even do that?
As long as you do you, and do what's best for yourself is all a man can do. This is where cultures clash and humans have various types of behaviors, attitudes, and mindsets based on those cultures.
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I typed up a lengthy, scathing reply on masks and scrapped it. What's the point? No one listens and is unwilling to reason.
I work in healthcare and will continue to wear them, as will my whole family. My son is at school right now and is probably the only one masked. A bunch of yokels sued and had the state school mask mandate overturned. Our Trump-loving district decided to roll with the downstate judge.
Whatever. There is no discourse anymore, just pure hate.
I mean dude come on
And using verbiage like this is part of the problem and is the cause of the devolution of rational conversation.
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I typed up a lengthy, scathing reply on masks and scrapped it. What's the point? No one listens and is unwilling to reason.
I work in healthcare and will continue to wear them, as will my whole family. My son is at school right now and is probably the only one masked. A bunch of yokels sued and had the state school mask mandate overturned. Our Trump-loving district decided to roll with the downstate judge.
Whatever. There is no discourse anymore, just pure hate.
I mean dude come on
it’s been explained multiple times in this thread that the assertion that « masks don’t work » is not true and yet here we are so I fully understand where professorpeart is coming from
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I typed up a lengthy, scathing reply on masks and scrapped it. What's the point? No one listens and is unwilling to reason.
I work in healthcare and will continue to wear them, as will my whole family. My son is at school right now and is probably the only one masked. A bunch of yokels sued and had the state school mask mandate overturned. Our Trump-loving district decided to roll with the downstate judge.
Whatever. There is no discourse anymore, just pure hate.
I agree with this. I went back and forth with some parents on social media yesterday and finally gave up and stopped responding - it was the same old tired arguments that I've heard from the same people for two years. I told my daughter to not pay attention to any other kids not wearing masks today and let the grown-ups handle it. She'll wear a mask until the school says it's ok to take them off, even though she doesn't really need to wear one. We're choosing to teach her to be compassionate and think about others first, rather than herself, and to follow the rules (even if you don't agree with them). Which is more to say than a lot of other parents are doing in this Me, My, I age.
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NJ's in school mask mandate is ending March 7th
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NJ's in school mask mandate is ending March 7th
I don't see Illinois' school mandate lasting past the appeal process. The legal decision is pretty sound and I generally agree with it. I also agree with my school district taking a "wait and see" approach until the appeal plays out before making formal changes to their covid guidelines. They telegraphed that move in a pre-emptive letter two weeks ago and asked for parents to remain patient.
That being said, some of the more vocal parents have mentioned that the schools are not enforcing mask wearing today, thus mollifying the ones that were raging against the school's initial response.
My only concern is for my younger son, who isn't able to get the vaccine yet. He relies on those around him to be vaccinated, immune and/or negative. I just hope the omicron wave was heavy enough in our area to provide additional protection to him, since there will be kids in his preschool that have additional exposure at home with older siblings that are now maskless.
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I typed up a lengthy, scathing reply on masks and scrapped it. What's the point? No one listens and is unwilling to reason.
I work in healthcare and will continue to wear them, as will my whole family. My son is at school right now and is probably the only one masked. A bunch of yokels sued and had the state school mask mandate overturned. Our Trump-loving district decided to roll with the downstate judge.
Whatever. There is no discourse anymore, just pure hate.
I agree with this. I went back and forth with some parents on social media yesterday and finally gave up and stopped responding - it was the same old tired arguments that I've heard from the same people for two years. I told my daughter to not pay attention to any other kids not wearing masks today and let the grown-ups handle it. She'll wear a mask until the school says it's ok to take them off, even though she doesn't really need to wear one. We're choosing to teach her to be compassionate and think about others first, rather than herself, and to follow the rules (even if you don't agree with them). Which is more to say than a lot of other parents are doing in this Me, My, I age.
You can comply, and not agree with the "rule", but that threshold can wear thin.
I do wonder how many that are masking are doing it just because it's required and don't really care one way if they have to wear a mask or not. Is that showing compassion or just going with the status quo?
The way some are making it out is as if everyone who is masking agrees. People can lie and people can say anything to get someone off their back or their shoulder. When a persons barriers are down, they can speak their thoughts and you can get their truth.
I find it fascinating how people can hide their true thoughts and feelings from others, while showing their true colors around certain people. I always ask people, "do you truly know someone?" "Are you sure they're really telling you the truth about their health?" People lie to their own close relatives in order for them not to worry, to where the relatives end up surprised when that person dies from something health related, usually responding with, "I didn't know they were that bad."
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I do wonder how many that are masking are doing it just because it's required and don't really care one way if they have to wear a mask or not. Is that showing compassion or just going with the status quo?
The way some are making it out is as if everyone who is masking agrees.
I share the same thoughts. The moment you take away requirements to wear masks almost no one does and out of those remaining people how many of them really believe it?
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NJ's in school mask mandate is ending March 7th
I don't see Illinois' school mandate lasting past the appeal process. The legal decision is pretty sound and I generally agree with it. I also agree with my school district taking a "wait and see" approach until the appeal plays out before making formal changes to their covid guidelines. They telegraphed that move in a pre-emptive letter two weeks ago and asked for parents to remain patient.
That being said, some of the more vocal parents have mentioned that the schools are not enforcing mask wearing today, thus mollifying the ones that were raging against the school's initial response.
My only concern is for my younger son, who isn't able to get the vaccine yet. He relies on those around him to be vaccinated, immune and/or negative. I just hope the omicron wave was heavy enough in our area to provide additional protection to him, since there will be kids in his preschool that have additional exposure at home with older siblings that are now maskless.
With no kids, I really don't know nor do I really get into the policy with the schools. My understanding is that it's a complete clusterfuck from my dad friends. The change happening in NJ is from the governor loosening restrictions as he said because case loads are low and vaccination rates are high. The schools are still open to do enforce their own rules and the same Dad friends figure there will still be lots of arguing between parents and school admins.
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I don't know; I've read some articles that said that Colbert was going to move AWAY from the persona and try to be more authentic on his show. I tend to think that's probably happened; I don't watch him enough to know for sure, but the roster of guests seems to tend away from the character he played on CC and lean into a presentation that is more indicative of his own character. Either way, it's too strident for me, and too... not angry, exactly, but it's of a kind with Seth Meyers; they ridicule so much that it's not illuminating in any way, it's just alienating if you're not in full agreement with the premise.
This seems about right. Colbert is very smart and pretty funny, but it's like he is always "on." From the clips I have seen, he just doesn't seem like a guy who can kick back and relax and have a casual chat with a guest. He definitely has that "I want to always be the smartest guy in the room" think going on.
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Sweden is removing all of its restrictions Wednesday (weak as they already were). Seems a tad premature to me but hopefully it doesn't backfire.
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I don't know; I've read some articles that said that Colbert was going to move AWAY from the persona and try to be more authentic on his show. I tend to think that's probably happened; I don't watch him enough to know for sure, but the roster of guests seems to tend away from the character he played on CC and lean into a presentation that is more indicative of his own character. Either way, it's too strident for me, and too... not angry, exactly, but it's of a kind with Seth Meyers; they ridicule so much that it's not illuminating in any way, it's just alienating if you're not in full agreement with the premise.
This seems about right. Colbert is very smart and pretty funny, but it's like he is always "on." From the clips I have seen, he just doesn't seem like a guy who can kick back and relax and have a casual chat with a guest. He definitely has that "I want to always be the smartest guy in the room" think going on.
That you for articulating this perfectly. When I say Colbert needs a shtick, it's not that he's still playing a character but he's doing... the things you said.
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California to lift mask mandates Feb 15th. :RJ:
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Sweden is removing all of its restrictions Wednesday (weak as they already were). Seems a tad premature to me but hopefully it doesn't backfire.
Interesting because it looks like Sweden only just started coming down. Maybe another couple weeks would be better. NJ, my local state, is basically already down to levels from before omicron and when things were "good" during the summer. I feel like that's a good time to loosen up restrictions and mandates and yet they are still waiting a month to lift the in school mask mandate. I guess what's an extra month at this point to see how much lower covid can go locally.
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If you have Medicare you might want to find other insurance because it apparently gives you covid. Who knew?
Over 70% of Americans who died with COVID, died on Medicare, and some people want #MedicareForAll ?
— Thomas Massie (@RepThomasMassie) February 9, 2022
https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1491441851748204546?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
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:lol wtf
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Idiot either doesn't understand the difference between correlation and causation, or does understand it but knows that his constituents don't.
100% of people who've died from Covid drank a glass of water at some point in their lives. Obviously water -> Covid -> death.
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I don't know if this has been posted here, but I've wasted hours in this subreddit.
/r/HermanCainAward (https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/)
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I've wasted too much time reading stuff from local parents on the school mask mandate here in Illinois.
A bunch of parents are just making online noise and sending letters to the school board daily, pushing them to follow their interpretation of the judge's decision. The school district is standing fast, that they have interpreted the decision in their way. But the district is being peaceful about it - they require masks still, despite the judge's ruling, but are not enforcing disciplinary procedures for kids that don't wear masks. They won't put the kids in the middle of the fight and punish them for their parent's choices.
I feel for the principals of the schools. There was a livestream of a committee meeting to start to brainstorm how to move to a mask optional plan. The two principals said that there was a lot of online chatter, and at the middle school, the parents started getting into it too much on campus that the principal started worrying for the staff's safety.
Included in the meeting was that the district has about 100 kids with legitimate medical issues - we even have a kid with a heart transplant in one school. There is ZERO compassion from any of the anti-mask parents about these at-risk kids. I'm thankful that the superintendent is making sure that they aren't forgotten.
I've been asking my daughter about it each day and she said she saw some kids with no masks. Our principal said it's about 15-20 kids out of 400 at the school that won't wear masks. That makes me feel proud that most parents are still doing what the school asks.
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This is going to come off way more uncaring and unsympathetic than I really mean it, but... do 1,000 or 2,000 kids all have to do something because 100 MIGHT be impacted? When my daughter was in elementary school, there was a kid that was allergic to just about everything under the sun: peanuts, red dye #32, hell, he might have been allergic TO the sun for all I know. The parents took that obligation seriously; THEY made sure that when there were birthdays or what not that they had separate treats for him, THEY made sure that his participation in school was as safe as it could be. Why is it the obligation of everyone else?
Interestingly enough, many parents - I know we did this at least once - would often reach out to those parents and ask what could be provided so the child could feel included. I don't recall if they ever took us up on that, but the point is, those that care, will, and those that don't, you can't legislate that.
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You're right, nothing is requiring the school to do something special to make sure that those specific children are protected from covid. I am happy that their situation is being taken into consideration - these kids don't have the option to have permanent remote learning anymore. Their parents are relying on mask usage as one layer of protection for their kids.
But yet, kids are NOT allowed to bring any food into the schools with nuts, on behalf of the small fraction of kids that have serious nut allergies.
How is it that we have to make considerations for food allergies, but not covid? A kid could share a peanut butter sandwich with an allergic kid, who could die within minutes in the school lunchroom. That is a HUGE concern for some parents.
All of a sudden it's not important that a covid-positive kid being in school and inadvertently transmitting the virus to a child that had a heart transplant and is on immunosuppressant drugs, and that child could die a few days later?
I'm not expecting the schools to bend over backwards for some families, and I am wanting a mask-optional policy. But I do note the hypocrisy from the anti-mask/anti-covid parents, who want to push hard for more lax, or even no covid mitigations while also making sure that their kid is protected from a peanut, or bullying, or whatever might affect them.
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You're right, nothing is requiring the school to do something special to make sure that those specific children are protected from covid. I am happy that their situation is being taken into consideration - these kids don't have the option to have permanent remote learning anymore. Their parents are relying on mask usage as one layer of protection for their kids.
But yet, kids are NOT allowed to bring any food into the schools with nuts, on behalf of the small fraction of kids that have serious nut allergies.
How is it that we have to make considerations for food allergies, but not covid? A kid could share a peanut butter sandwich with an allergic kid, who could die within minutes in the school lunchroom. That is a HUGE concern for some parents.
All of a sudden it's not important that a covid-positive kid being in school and inadvertently transmitting the virus to a child that had a heart transplant and is on immunosuppressant drugs, and that child could die a few days later?
I'm not expecting the schools to bend over backwards for some families, and I am wanting a mask-optional policy. But I do note the hypocrisy from the anti-mask/anti-covid parents, who want to push hard for more lax, or even no covid mitigations while also making sure that their kid is protected from a peanut, or bullying, or whatever might affect them.
My point wasn't to highlight the hypocrisy of the anti-mask people; my point was to say "how should we handle these generally?". I'm not at all assuming that we handle the "peanut allergy" correctly. But having said that, why does "hypocrisy" surprise you? We can spend the rest of the afternoon talking about the hypocrisy of people on BOTH sides of the debate. Women's bodies are sacred, can't legislate their decisions to abort or not, but you can tell me what I should or should not inject into MY body? Why isn't my body my choice? I'm not advocating either position (I'm pro-choice, myself) but highlighting that there's no monopoly here on hypocrisy.
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The one thing I've noticed as the pandemic has gone on is the lack of compassion and empathy in some. That's all. It's become a fever pitch of individualism, of choice, even though one's choice can affect others.
I don't know how the schools plan on handling it. My thing is that some parents are losing patience when the schools have directly asked for it. I don't mind being patient - the mask thing will either work itself out in court one way or the other, or the school will move forward with a plan to officially make it optional in the coming weeks if the court allows.
They can't cater to everyone, nor can they cater to a specific group of families alone. I was just glad to see that they're not rushing a decision and are taking at-risk children into consideration. I sent a short email to the district superintendent this morning thanking her for that, as it has become a fever pitch of selfishness from some in the district.
There have been enough emails sent to her in the last week browbeating her for not making a quick change, so I thought a short note of thanks would be nice for her to read. It also allowed me to include a personal note about her therapy dog, which comes into the schools with her for the kids to pet and talk to and whom my daughter absolutely loves.
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The one thing I've noticed as the pandemic has gone on is the lack of compassion and empathy in some. That's all. It's become a fever pitch of individualism, of choice, even though one's choice can affect others.
I don't know how the schools plan on handling it. My thing is that some parents are losing patience when the schools have directly asked for it. I don't mind being patient - the mask thing will either work itself out in court one way or the other, or the school will move forward with a plan to officially make it optional in the coming weeks if the court allows.
They can't cater to everyone, nor can they cater to a specific group of families alone. I was just glad to see that they're not rushing a decision and are taking at-risk children into consideration. I sent a short email to the district superintendent this morning thanking her for that, as it has become a fever pitch of selfishness from some in the district.
There have been enough emails sent to her in the last week browbeating her for not making a quick change, so I thought a short note of thanks would be nice for her to read. It also allowed me to include a personal note about her therapy dog, which comes into the schools with her for the kids to pet and talk to and whom my daughter absolutely loves.
I'm sorry to keep harping about this, but "individualism" and "compassion" or "empathy" are not mutually exclusive; or rather, a position of "individualism" doesn't necessarily signal a lack of compassion or empathy. it just might not be YOUR version of "compassion" or "empathy". It's pretty similar to the argument that many of the agnostics/atheists here have made in the past: "I may not believe in a God, but that doesn't make me immoral. My standards are just not based on the scripture of any religion". We are, of course, talking about what we can DEMAND of others, not what we can ask, and that's really where the interface is. I often go well beyond what my individualist core might in theory say, but I reconcile that with "that was my CHOICE to abdicate my right (for lack of a better word) in that matter".
And there wouldn't be a P/R section at all if not for the case that "people's choices affect others".
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I remember when my High School went full on healthy foods and no junk food. It was hilarious because we all laughed and said, it won't matter because the students can still go off campus and will go to the McDonald's right next door. I personally went to Quiznos because that was good food, and my teacher didn't mind if we ate in his class, so I would eat it there.
What this really had an effect on was the clubs that used food sales to generate club funds. The German Store would sell Pizza from Dion's, and the Golf Club coach sold breakfast burritos which were a hit with the students and also teachers. This also got rid of the the Student Store where the student council could raise funds by selling nachos, hot dogs and burgers.
All that went away when they implemented their healthy agenda.
This was also when the school told us we weren't allowed to go to our football fields for lunch and had to stay within the plaza in view of teachers and security guard staff, yet our security guards were a bit plump as well and we would always see the biggest one on a golf cart. Which we laughed at and said, "It's because your security is too fat and can't get their lazy asses off their golf cart to walk around the football fields or baseball fields to enforce their job of making sure the kids there are not smoking, doing drugs, or having sex."
A schools purpose is to indoctrinate and this utilizes obedience of authority. Yet, it's funny when that authority makes questionable decisions in which the students and teachers agree are worthless or not going to work. Some of my teachers knew this and some would talk about it with me, while others didn't care and did what they were told anyways. One of them would stand in front of his classroom and once the bell rang would slam the door, look at you and say "Go to the office and get a tardy slip." Some would go and some would take their time going, which was funny to see. He would also yell outside if the loudspeaker came on to inform us about some achievement from the sports teams or clubs and he didn't like that taking up valuable teaching time.
So let me say, when I was in school I had more compassion and empathy for my teachers more so than my classmates. I could see how the teachers were being affected by the administrations decisions and it wasn't beneficial at all to the teachers, it actually made it harder for them to teach how they want to teach students.
In others words, I have no compassion for the School Administration, but I do have compassion and empathy for the teachers that have to endure these regulations because they love teaching the students.
Edit: I forgot, the school also got rid of the soda vending machines in the cafeteria and replaced them with Milk Vending machines. Yet, we still had soda vending machines in the gym, where I would go get mine. No one touched those milk machines, until one day my friend decided to buy one and it was spoiled. We all laughed and said, "drink it" then sue the school for getting you sick because they didn't bother changing out the milk machines and making sure they're not expired. :lol
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This is going to come off way more uncaring and unsympathetic than I really mean it, but...
You're right it did. :lol
Look, society has done this forever - the masses have to make accommodations for small legions of idiots, vulnerable, at-risk, yada yada. Why is it law to wear a seat-belt, or not get behind a wheel after a couple of bevy's? It's not quite as simple / black-and-white as "my body my choice".
The whole pregnancy argument is weak and lazy - you don't get pregnant being in the presence of a pregnant person. But to extend this analogy a little further, if one COULD get pregnant just by sharing space with a pregnant person, for 7/9ths of the time, you can visibly identify when a person is pregnant, and thus avoid them.
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This is going to come off way more uncaring and unsympathetic than I really mean it, but...
You're right it did. :lol
Look, society has done this forever - the masses have to make accommodations for small legions of idiots, vulnerable, at-risk, yada yada. Why is it law to wear a seat-belt, or not get behind a wheel after a couple of bevy's? It's not quite as simple / black-and-white as "my body my choice".
The whole pregnancy argument is weak and lazy - you don't get pregnant being in the presence of a pregnant person. But to extend this analogy a little further, if one COULD get pregnant just by sharing space with a pregnant person, for 7/9ths of the time, you can visibly identify when a person is pregnant, and thus avoid them.
But here's the thing. Everything you said is right... in your frame (of reference). Everything I said is right... in my frame (of reference). I'm over simplifying to a degree here, but: You went to communicability when talking about pregnancy, and ignored autonomous bodily rights. I went to autonomous bodily right and ignored communicability. To your point, I can avoid those with COVID if I want. If I REALLY want.
The fact of the matter is, beyond ANYTHING else, you DO NOT get to set my frame of reference for me and vice versa, and that applies across the board. So we have to figure out a way to build that wall so all 330 million frames get to fit.
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This is going to come off way more uncaring and unsympathetic than I really mean it, but...
You're right it did. :lol
Look, society has done this forever - the masses have to make accommodations for small legions of idiots, vulnerable, at-risk, yada yada. Why is it law to wear a seat-belt, or not get behind a wheel after a couple of bevy's? It's not quite as simple / black-and-white as "my body my choice".
The whole pregnancy argument is weak and lazy - you don't get pregnant being in the presence of a pregnant person. But to extend this analogy a little further, if one COULD get pregnant just by sharing space with a pregnant person, for 7/9ths of the time, you can visibly identify when a person is pregnant, and thus avoid them.
But here's the thing. Everything you said is right... in your frame (of reference). Everything I said is right... in my frame (of reference). I'm over simplifying to a degree here, but: You went to communicability when talking about pregnancy, and ignored autonomous bodily rights. I went to autonomous bodily right and ignored communicability. To your point, I can avoid those with COVID if I want. If I REALLY want.
The fact of the matter is, beyond ANYTHING else, you DO NOT get to set my frame of reference for me and vice versa, and that applies across the board. So we have to figure out a way to build that wall so all 330 million frames get to fit.
And it gets even more difficult when those 330 million come from different cultural backgrounds.
We are a nation that is unique in how much diversity we do have by allowing all the cultures to practice their ways and customs. Which took time and until very, very recently allowed some to continue to practice their customs, which was not allowed at all.
For that very reason, it's not impossible, but it is very very complicated and difficult to achieve. And until each one of those customs and cultural differences can live amongst one another, there's going to be times where they'll butt heads. And even within those cultural backgrounds, there are still those whom will disagree with the status quo of that custom or cultural practice.
What the tribes of America chose to do was reject all outsiders from entering the reservations. No outsider can visit, this also means relatives of that tribe that are from another Tribe. This means closing the borders and also it meant shutting down the roads, such as in South Dakota, which that governor was crying about and it led to the further hurdle of Tribal Sovereignty Vs. State decisions.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/south-dakota-governor-continues-target-161742891.html
The mask mandates are lifted but the Tribes in those states are still requiring masks.
https://nativenewsonline.net/health/as-new-york-governor-lifts-mask-mandate-saint-regis-mohawk-tribe-still-requires-masks
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This is going to come off way more uncaring and unsympathetic than I really mean it, but...
You're right it did. :lol
Look, society has done this forever - the masses have to make accommodations for small legions of idiots, vulnerable, at-risk, yada yada. Why is it law to wear a seat-belt, or not get behind a wheel after a couple of bevy's? It's not quite as simple / black-and-white as "my body my choice".
The whole pregnancy argument is weak and lazy - you don't get pregnant being in the presence of a pregnant person. But to extend this analogy a little further, if one COULD get pregnant just by sharing space with a pregnant person, for 7/9ths of the time, you can visibly identify when a person is pregnant, and thus avoid them.
But here's the thing. Everything you said is right... in your frame (of reference). Everything I said is right... in my frame (of reference). I'm over simplifying to a degree here, but: You went to communicability when talking about pregnancy, and ignored autonomous bodily rights. I went to autonomous bodily right and ignored communicability. To your point, I can avoid those with COVID if I want. If I REALLY want.
The fact of the matter is, beyond ANYTHING else, you DO NOT get to set my frame of reference for me and vice versa, and that applies across the board. So we have to figure out a way to build that wall so all 330 million frames get to fit.
Surely you're not naive enough to think there's a societal wall that allows all frames to hang harmoniously.
You make valid points. I guess my frame comes from the perspective that physical health trumps pretty much all else. What's the first thing (many) people say when they have a child - something to the effect of "I just want a healthy baby". Can't remember the last time I heard someone say "I just want a baby that will be allowed to have autonomy over their body". I cannot be convinced that there isn't a larger swath of society that puts their physical health behind their choices about their body. Got cancer??... 'no chemo for me thanks - too invasive'. 3 clogged heart valves? "I don't want no scar". Leukemia?? "But my bone marrow!!"*
I'm baffled at the circumstances that people seem to want to play the 'my body my rights' card - when it's convenient for them as an individual.
* - and yes, I get that some people will respond in these ways - but it isn't 30% of people.
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This is going to come off way more uncaring and unsympathetic than I really mean it, but...
You're right it did. :lol
Look, society has done this forever - the masses have to make accommodations for small legions of idiots, vulnerable, at-risk, yada yada. Why is it law to wear a seat-belt, or not get behind a wheel after a couple of bevy's? It's not quite as simple / black-and-white as "my body my choice".
The whole pregnancy argument is weak and lazy - you don't get pregnant being in the presence of a pregnant person. But to extend this analogy a little further, if one COULD get pregnant just by sharing space with a pregnant person, for 7/9ths of the time, you can visibly identify when a person is pregnant, and thus avoid them.
But here's the thing. Everything you said is right... in your frame (of reference). Everything I said is right... in my frame (of reference). I'm over simplifying to a degree here, but: You went to communicability when talking about pregnancy, and ignored autonomous bodily rights. I went to autonomous bodily right and ignored communicability. To your point, I can avoid those with COVID if I want. If I REALLY want.
The fact of the matter is, beyond ANYTHING else, you DO NOT get to set my frame of reference for me and vice versa, and that applies across the board. So we have to figure out a way to build that wall so all 330 million frames get to fit.
Surely you're not naive enough to think there's a societal wall that allows all frames to hang harmoniously.
You make valid points. I guess my frame comes from the perspective that physical health trumps pretty much all else. What's the first thing (many) people say when they have a child - something to the effect of "I just want a healthy baby". Can't remember the last time I heard someone say "I just want a baby that will be allowed to have autonomy over their body". I cannot be convinced that there isn't a larger swath of society that puts their physical health behind their choices about their body. Got cancer??... 'no chemo for me thanks - too invasive'. 3 clogged heart valves? "I don't want no scar". Leukemia?? "But my bone marrow!!"*
I'm baffled at the circumstances that people seem to want to play the 'my body my rights' card - when it's convenient for them as an individual.
* - and yes, I get that some people will respond in these ways - but it isn't 30% of people.
There's a fine line between "naive" and "idealistic". Are we "naive" enough to think that racism - judgement, the same type of judgement we're talking about here and in the Spotify thread - will go away? Some are (though we all know some are profiting off the concept, and so it's not going to go away, it will always be a sword to be weilded). Are we "naive" enough to think that we are all on a "journey" and our "stories matter"? Of course; entire websites and corporate media monoliths are built on that premise. Why not make REAL tolerance (not the forced acceptance that passes for tolerance in identity politics circles these days) a priority?
As an individualist, I would argue that "autonomy over my body" is the first, required step for physical health. You're talking one isolated area, vaccines and/or masks, in the context of one pandemic. There are 100's of other angles where sublimating your care for the "greater good" (in quotes because it's an ephemeral concept also subject to frames) is predicated on abdicating your individual responsibility. You know what? It IS my choice to say "no" to chemo. And you've got nothing to say about it. Because if we give that sliver of autonomy up because, what, society is better with my weakened productivity? There aren't health care burdens for society to take care of me as my bodily functions fail? Then why aren't we sterilizing everyone with ANY genetic imperfection? Why aren't we sterilizing those with an IQ under the speed limit? Why aren't we telling every single mom with an income less than $40k to abort immediately (controversial, to be sure, but there IS data that the crime rate dropped generally in America following Roe in 1973)? Why aren't we telling anyone that smokes, drinks, eats McDonalds, or doesn't run 3k a day to fuck off when it comes to healthcare? Why should my tax dollars fund YOUR Big Mac/Marlboro addictions?
I'm not saying you're wrong, Chad, I'm not saying you should change your mind or your way of thinking, I'm just saying that the issue is bigger and more complicated than perhaps you're making it out to be. If I give you my autonomy on this vaccine based on PUBLIC HEALTH - which, if I give it, IS predicated on me having given up my autonomy in a previous situation based on PUBLIC HEALTH, so the 'slippery slope' in action - then what's next? It's not a subjective game, here. We're either in or we're out.
One last thing: this is hard. When you push ideas, concepts, decisions out to the individual, with it HAS to come some suspension of judgement, some TOLERANCE. People ARE going to make decisions that you (generally) don't like or in fact, impact you. Maybe even HARM you in some intangible way. Life in the fast lane. We live in a society with almost ten percent of the people that have ever walked the Earth. We all have to make concessions on some level, and understand that those concessions have to be made. "Some level" is going to mean something different to everyone though. For me, it's some concession that I am not TRULY autonomous; for you, I guess, it's some concession that maybe there will be circumstances for which "optimal public health" is not the ONLY variable in play.
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I've only glossed over this discussion, so forgive me if this point was brought up earlier, but I think in this case, "autonomy over my body" is a horse of a different color because it's dismissive of the consequences. The fact that unvaccinated human bodies are basically petri dishes for mutations and are more likely to lead to vaccine-evading mutations puts everyone else at risk. It's the difference between choosing not to wear my seatbelt and choosing not to drink and drive.
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The fact that unvaccinated human bodies are basically petri dishes for mutations and are more likely to lead to vaccine-evading mutations puts everyone else at risk.
Think about what happens in history when a certain group of people is labelled as disease ridden. This is not a road you want to go down.
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That didn't take long lol
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I've only glossed over this discussion, so forgive me if this point was brought up earlier, but I think in this case, "autonomy over my body" is a horse of a different color because it's dismissive of the consequences. The fact that unvaccinated human bodies are basically petri dishes for mutations and are more likely to lead to vaccine-evading mutations puts everyone else at risk. It's the difference between choosing not to wear my seatbelt and choosing not to drink and drive.
Actually, the science tells us that just the opposite is true. One of the worst things you can do during a pandemic is push universal vaccination because you run the risk of actively generating more highly pathogenic viruses. You are aware that these gene based shots do not stop you from contracting or spreading Covid (per the CDC's own admission), correct?
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I've only glossed over this discussion, so forgive me if this point was brought up earlier, but I think in this case, "autonomy over my body" is a horse of a different color because it's dismissive of the consequences. The fact that unvaccinated human bodies are basically petri dishes for mutations and are more likely to lead to vaccine-evading mutations puts everyone else at risk. It's the difference between choosing not to wear my seatbelt and choosing not to drink and drive.
Actually, the science tells us that just the opposite is true. One of the worst things you can do during a pandemic is push universal vaccination because you run the risk of actively generating more highly pathogenic viruses. You are aware that these gene based shots do not stop you from contracting or spreading Covid (per the CDC's own admission), correct?
Which is why measles and polio are totally not eradicated in all countries with high vaccine uptake and in fact ever since we mass-vaccinated against them, it got worse? Yes, transmission mitigation has been halved ever since delta took over, but since an extreeeeeeme majority of vaccinated people will not end up on a ventilator, vaccination is still our only way out of this mess and anyone not pushing for maximum vaccine uptake is irresponsible towards people's lives and public health as a whole.
Sorry, but just saying "gene based shots" is :lol what happened to calling vaccines, vaccines? Is saying "gene based shots" supposed to be more precise and truthful? Because it's not and it betrays where you get this supposedly scientific information from. If you want to reach across the ideological aisle to the majority of people who support vaccination, maybe you should start by using normal human words for normal things.
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I've only glossed over this discussion, so forgive me if this point was brought up earlier, but I think in this case, "autonomy over my body" is a horse of a different color because it's dismissive of the consequences. The fact that unvaccinated human bodies are basically petri dishes for mutations and are more likely to lead to vaccine-evading mutations puts everyone else at risk. It's the difference between choosing not to wear my seatbelt and choosing not to drink and drive.
Actually, the science tells us that just the opposite is true. One of the worst things you can do during a pandemic is push universal vaccination because you run the risk of actively generating more highly pathogenic viruses. You are aware that these gene based shots do not stop you from contracting or spreading Covid (per the CDC's own admission), correct?
I also am personally against universal vaccine mandates. But that said, virtually everything you typed is wrong. And using "gene based shots" is not only incorrect and unscientific, but is very misleading.
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I've only glossed over this discussion, so forgive me if this point was brought up earlier, but I think in this case, "autonomy over my body" is a horse of a different color because it's dismissive of the consequences. The fact that unvaccinated human bodies are basically petri dishes for mutations and are more likely to lead to vaccine-evading mutations puts everyone else at risk. It's the difference between choosing not to wear my seatbelt and choosing not to drink and drive.
Actually, the science tells us that just the opposite is true. One of the worst things you can do during a pandemic is push universal vaccination because you run the risk of actively generating more highly pathogenic viruses. You are aware that these gene based shots do not stop you from contracting or spreading Covid (per the CDC's own admission), correct?
I also am personally against universal vaccine mandates. But that said, virtually everything you typed is wrong. And using "gene based shots" is not only incorrect and unscientific, but is very misleading.
DTFFan is half right. Vaccines create a risk of a worse virus if they are leaky... which is what the current COVID shots are.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2116597 < This article captures what I think is the most logical conclusion regarding the COVID shots and preventing transmission - They have some effect, but that effect diminishes over time.
You also have to factor in how the COVID shots only make the body create a certain aspect of the COVID virus, rather than being a dead version of the same thing.
You can find tons of articles (written before 2020) on how a leaky Marek's disease vaccine in chickens caused that virus to become much more severe. It's not unreasonable to see the same risk present with COVID given that the current shots are also leaky.
But to get back to the broader issue - This is all still speculative. I can imagine a future where DTFFan's narrative becomes the popular consensus (I'd guess a third of the US is already there, and popular opinion is trending a certain way). Would result in the exact demonization I've been railing against here, just in the opposite direction.
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You are using "leaky" in one context and assuming the same "leakiness" applies in a completely different context, which there is NO data supporting, as far as I am aware. In other words, you are using the same word to apply broadly to two entirely different things. That's bad logic and bad analysis.
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Why's the context different? Because it's chickens? I can't imagine the mechanisms of vaccination are that different.
Also not sure there's a total lack of data supporting. From what I understand, one of the reasons Omicron spread so rapidly (and, in some data sets, did so more rapidly among people with the shots), is because its structure was different from Alpha and Delta in significant ways. If Omicron spread more rapidly among people with the shots (again, data inconclusive, but does exist), then you have a case of the vaccine allowing something to spread more rapidly than it would have if nature ran its course.
Again I could be wrong but I'm not sure it's a ridiculous argument either.
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I've only glossed over this discussion, so forgive me if this point was brought up earlier, but I think in this case, "autonomy over my body" is a horse of a different color because it's dismissive of the consequences. The fact that unvaccinated human bodies are basically petri dishes for mutations and are more likely to lead to vaccine-evading mutations puts everyone else at risk. It's the difference between choosing not to wear my seatbelt and choosing not to drink and drive.
Actually, the science tells us that just the opposite is true. One of the worst things you can do during a pandemic is push universal vaccination because you run the risk of actively generating more highly pathogenic viruses. You are aware that these gene based shots do not stop you from contracting or spreading Covid (per the CDC's own admission), correct?
I also am personally against universal vaccine mandates. But that said, virtually everything you typed is wrong. And using "gene based shots" is not only incorrect and unscientific, but is very misleading.
DTFFan is half right. Vaccines create a risk of a worse virus if they are leaky... which is what the current COVID shots are.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2116597 < This article captures what I think is the most logical conclusion regarding the COVID shots and preventing transmission - They have some effect, but that effect diminishes over time.
You also have to factor in how the COVID shots only make the body create a certain aspect of the COVID virus, rather than being a dead version of the same thing.
You can find tons of articles (written before 2020) on how a leaky Marek's disease vaccine in chickens caused that virus to become much more severe. It's not unreasonable to see the same risk present with COVID given that the current shots are also leaky.
But to get back to the broader issue - This is all still speculative. I can imagine a future where DTFFan's narrative becomes the popular consensus (I'd guess a third of the US is already there, and popular opinion is trending a certain way). Would result in the exact demonization I've been railing against here, just in the oppositdirection.
Thank you for bringing that up. The person who first introduced me to this concept was virologist and immunologist Dr. Robert Malone. He is the inventor of the nine original mRNA vaccine patents and undoubtedly (at the bare minimum) one of the founding fathers of the platform that these vaccines (gene therapies) are built on. In anyone is qualified to speak on these vaccines and how we should or shouldn't be implementing them, it is him.
It shouldn't be a controversial thing to say that this vaccination program hasn't been a success (to put it mildly) and that thousands of people have been experiencing adverse effects ranging in severity. I don't understand how stating that would make one "anti-vaccine", which is the lazy, anti-intellectual label so often thrust upon those of us who question the official narrative.
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I would caution that just because Malone says something doesn't necessarily make it true either. I'm not deeply familiar with his arguments, but from what I've seen him say it feels like he's going with a lot of worst case scenarios as a gut reaction. He might be right. But one of the biggest problems with a lot of "the science" around COVID has been over-reliance on credentialism. Just going with what Malone says results in the same issue.
It shouldn't be a controversial thing to say that this vaccination program hasn't been a success (to put it mildly) and that thousands of people have been experiencing adverse effects ranging in severity. I don't understand how stating that would make one "anti-vaccine"
This I do agree with entirely. The conflating of being suspicious of COVID shots and being "anti-Vax" has been one of the most intellectually dishonest parts of the whole conversation around COVID.
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the vaccination has absolutely been successful, what the hell are you guys basing this on? (I'm going to regret this aren't I)
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the vaccination has absolutely been successful, what the hell are you guys basing this on? (I'm going to regret this aren't I)
During Omicron, Israel had one of the highest cases per million in the world (the highest, depending on the graph) spite of being one of (if not the most) vaccinated countries on Earth (can see this in The Guardian's Corona Graphs).
For specific high risk individuals, the COVID shots have been effective at reducing the rate of severe outcomes. For keeping COVID under control on a societal level, they have failed completely.
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My understanding was that the vaccine would help keep me from becoming sick. Not that it would stop the pandemic in its tracks.
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the vaccines were never supposed to prevent infection, why are you using that bar? They prevented being hospitalized, winding up on a ventilator and possibly dying.
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What's wrong of lessening the affects of the virus?
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My understanding was that the vaccine would help keep me from becoming sick. Not that it would stop the pandemic in its tracks.
the vaccines were never supposed to prevent infection, why are you using that bar? They prevented being hospitalized, winding up on a ventilator and possibly dying.
Was absolutely marketed as such in America. You still see people say that getting more COVID shots out there is an important part of getting COVID under control.
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Let's use common sense. How many times have we all heard that the flu shot wasn't as affective as it was in other years because of variants?
It's no surprise at all but it still does lesson it for most.
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Let's use common sense. How many times have we all heard that the flu shot wasn't as affective as it was in other years because of variants?
It's no surprise at all but it still does lesson it for most.
Completely fine. But I've never had to take a flu shot to do anything in my life.
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Let's use common sense. How many times have we all heard that the flu shot wasn't as affective as it was in other years because of variants?
It's no surprise at all but it still does lesson it for most.
Completely fine. But I've never had to take a flu shot to do anything in my life.
Well, you did to not catch the flu. ;D
Actually, I can't believe I have to show my vax card to see Dream Theater.
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Let's use common sense. How many times have we all heard that the flu shot wasn't as affective as it was in other years because of variants?
It's no surprise at all but it still does lesson it for most.
Completely fine. But I've never had to take a flu shot to do anything in my life.
I have no spleen so I need to get it. The 1 time I didn't get my flu shot I missed the AFC Championship game in N.E. vs. Indy in 2004. Got the flu. 104 temperature.
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Well, you did to not catch the flu. ;D
Never got a flu shot basically never got sick.
I have no spleen so I need to get it. The 1 time I didn't get my flu shot I missed the AFC Championship game in N.E. vs. Indy in 2004. Got the flu. 104 temperature.
Damn that sucks.
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My buddies were there while I suffered on my couch. Lol. Never missed a game before. Even when I battled lymphoma.
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My understanding was that the vaccine would help keep me from becoming sick. Not that it would stop the pandemic in its tracks.
the vaccines were never supposed to prevent infection, why are you using that bar? They prevented being hospitalized, winding up on a ventilator and possibly dying.
Was absolutely marketed as such in America. You still see people say that getting more COVID shots out there is an important part of getting COVID under control.
I’ve been following this from the beginning, got vaccinated early, and I’ve NEVER heard this from anyone ever except those who are claiming that it has been said.
From day 1 that I got my first shot…early on…it was made clear to me that it did not prevent infection or spread. It just made it so I had a far lesser chance of being hospitalized or dying.
EDIT - but I do consider that being a part of “getting it under control”
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I have to get the flu shot to remain employed. Have had to for years now. Never got it before that and, you know what, I didn't complain. I went and got my shot and remain employed.
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the vaccines were never supposed to prevent infection, why are you using that bar? They prevented being hospitalized, winding up on a ventilator and possibly dying.
I don't think this has ever happened before in the entire history of this forum, but I agree 100% with XeRocks. Anyone trying to argue it has not been a success is either not paying attention or too deep in their own bias to be anything close to objective.
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I haven't been following this thread closely for a bit, but ReaPsTA is someone I always try and read here. But after a quick scan to catch up on the last page or two, I have no idea what is being debated.
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the vaccines were never supposed to prevent infection, why are you using that bar? They prevented being hospitalized, winding up on a ventilator and possibly dying.
I don't think this has ever happened before in the entire history of this forum, but I agree 100% with XeRocks. Anyone trying to argue it has not been a success is either not paying attention or too deep in their own bias to be anything close to objective.
OK wtf is going on? Now I'm scared...
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Let's use common sense. How many times have we all heard that the flu shot wasn't as affective as it was in other years because of variants?
It's no surprise at all but it still does lesson it for most.
Completely fine. But I've never had to take a flu shot to do anything in my life.
Well, you did to not catch the flu. ;D
Actually, I can't believe I have to show my vax card to see Dream Theater.
Then you should've came to the Mesa, AZ show where everyone walked right in and there was no enforcement of mask policies.
Also, I am sure that reason is a cause for low turn-out and the band has likely noticed it. Mesa was pretty packed, and I thought it was a good turnout for a Dream Theater show.
My understanding was that the vaccine would help keep me from becoming sick. Not that it would stop the pandemic in its tracks.
the vaccines were never supposed to prevent infection, why are you using that bar? They prevented being hospitalized, winding up on a ventilator and possibly dying.
Was absolutely marketed as such in America. You still see people say that getting more COVID shots out there is an important part of getting COVID under control.
I’ve been following this from the beginning, got vaccinated early, and I’ve NEVER heard this from anyone ever except those who are claiming that it has been said.
From day 1 that I got my first shot…early on…it was made clear to me that it did not prevent infection or spread. It just made it so I had a far lesser chance of being hospitalized or dying.
EDIT - but I do consider that being a part of “getting it under control”
The main thing to get under control was not the virus. It was the stress on the hospitals that prevented people from getting seen and treated by a doctor in a timely manner. The demand of the sick did not meet the supply of doctors available to treat people.
The vaccine did it's job in preventing serious illness in people to the point where they won't go to a hospital Emergency Room and take up space for those non-Covid related emergencies where they need to be seen and treated as quickly as possible.
That's why I say if people really wanted to prevent the stress on the hospitals, people could be doing a lot more than just taking a vaccine, and actually start doing things that are known to help keep one healthy and away from the hospitals. People do a lot of things besides catching this virus that causes them to end up in the hospitals.
We humans live in a system of society that can not stop, one halt in the turn of the wheel can have devastating effects for many. This was proven with what was not available in the stores, and the times it took for us to get things like furniture. I had to wait 6 months for a dresser. And I personally find it hilarious how fragile this system truly is. Then we got these fundraiser pages not allowing certain donations to be sent, and then cryptocurrency is on the market now, which can actually take over the fiat currency of the almighty dollar. This pandemic did a lot more than just make people sick and die.
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the vaccines were never supposed to prevent infection, why are you using that bar? They prevented being hospitalized, winding up on a ventilator and possibly dying.
I don't think this has ever happened before in the entire history of this forum, but I agree 100% with XeRocks. Anyone trying to argue it has not been a success is either not paying attention or too deep in their own bias to be anything close to objective.
That depends on the standard by which you're judging success. I'm using the standard our own public health authorities used, which was to prevent infection.
https://twitter.com/cdcgov/status/1356387157678706697?lang=en - "#COVID19 vaccines keep you from getting COVID-19."
https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/02/01/dr-anthony-fauci-coronavirus-mutations-and-vaccinations-nr-sot-vpx.cnn - At about 1:20 Fauci says to take the Vaccine to not get infected
Also, do you remember how during the first half of 2021 a lot of conversation was had around what percentage of the population needed to get the shots in order for the US to have herd immunity? Herd immunity necessarily implies people not getting infected.
If you look around, you can absolutely find stuff talking about breakthrough infections. But those infections were considered rare (example: https://www.doh.wa.gov/Newsroom/Articles/ID/2720/Cases-of-COVID-19-vaccine-breakthrough-confirmed-in-Washington-state - You can also find multiple scientific papers from the early 2021's that say the same thing). But you also have to look at how the equivocations about vaccine effectiveness against breakthrough infections were drowned out under the relentless messaging to get the shot, even if you already had COVID!
In trying to find the links documenting this (rather than just repeating what I remember), one of the narratives I saw Fauci put out was about how we needed to take the COVID shots in order to prevent new variants from spreading. But this was inherently absurd from the beginning, as new cold and flu variants appear every year and they have to update the flu shot every year in order to deal with them. So how is a shot based on an old version of the virus supposed to provide protection from the new one? With Delta it worked less well and with Omicron it appears to have worked barely at all. Again, another goal laid out by a US health authority that was not met.
I'm absolutely biased but I'm not making shit up.
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I'm using the standard our own public health authorities used, which was to prevent infection.
Then cherry picking that standard is your mistake.
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I'm using the standard our own public health authorities used, which was to prevent infection.
Then cherry picking that standard is your mistake.
So let's take a step back. Why do you think that's Cherry Picking?
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Because that just isn't the correct standard for measuring vaccine efficacy, and we know that vaccines do not complete prevent infection.
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Because that just isn't the correct standard for measuring vaccine efficacy, and we know that vaccines do not complete prevent infection.
Perhaps amusingly, I had to look back at the past ~page and figure out how we got here.
DTFan's post used the words "vaccination program", which I read as having to do with the marketing campaign and the political goals it was designed to achieve. I don't think that's so much Cherry Picking as interpretation based on what aspects of COVID are most salient to you.
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Vaccination program refers to a program of vaccination.
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My understanding was that the vaccine would help keep me from becoming sick. Not that it would stop the pandemic in its tracks.
the vaccines were never supposed to prevent infection, why are you using that bar? They prevented being hospitalized, winding up on a ventilator and possibly dying.
Was absolutely marketed as such in America. You still see people say that getting more COVID shots out there is an important part of getting COVID under control.
The State of Connecticut was running ads for a while with one of our top health officials saying exactly that. "We can beat this", and using vaccines, masks, and social distancing as the tools to do so.
I'm not disagreeing with the point that the vaccines were most effective at lessening the SEVERITY of infection (as opposed to preventing infection) but let's not get so incredulous as to suggest that this was always a consistent message. Those saying "the vaccines were successful" and those saying "let's question the narrative" can both be right.
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I've only glossed over this discussion, so forgive me if this point was brought up earlier, but I think in this case, "autonomy over my body" is a horse of a different color because it's dismissive of the consequences. The fact that unvaccinated human bodies are basically petri dishes for mutations and are more likely to lead to vaccine-evading mutations puts everyone else at risk. It's the difference between choosing not to wear my seatbelt and choosing not to drink and drive.
As the primary advocate (here) of the "autonomy of body" argument, let me be clear: I'm not DISMISSIVE of consequences, I simply do not let them CONTROL. Our most fundamental rights aren't "fundamental when it's easy!" rights. "Free speech" is no challenge at all when it's some pop star singing about how some man treated her like crap. "Abortion" is no challenge (for most) when we're talking rape, or some extenuating circumstance. The challenge for all of us is when it HAS consequences we don't necessarily like or want. For example, in the States, "hate" speech is technically protected speech, and I would argue that's the way it should be. "Abortion" when simply the woman doesn't want to be pregnant anymore (depsite the "consequences" of having unprotected sex) is allowed under Roe, and I would argue that's the way it should be. There's no fundamental right anywhere on the planet that says we have the RIGHT to be optimally free from any "harm".
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I've only glossed over this discussion, so forgive me if this point was brought up earlier, but I think in this case, "autonomy over my body" is a horse of a different color because it's dismissive of the consequences. The fact that unvaccinated human bodies are basically petri dishes for mutations and are more likely to lead to vaccine-evading mutations puts everyone else at risk. It's the difference between choosing not to wear my seatbelt and choosing not to drink and drive.
As the primary advocate (here) of the "autonomy of body" argument, let me be clear: I'm not DISMISSIVE of consequences, I simply do not let them CONTROL. Our most fundamental rights aren't "fundamental when it's easy!" rights. "Free speech" is no challenge at all when it's some pop star singing about how some man treated her like crap. "Abortion" is no challenge (for most) when we're talking rape, or some extenuating circumstance. The challenge for all of us is when it HAS consequences we don't necessarily like or want. For example, in the States, "hate" speech is technically protected speech, and I would argue that's the way it should be. "Abortion" when simply the woman doesn't want to be pregnant anymore (depsite the "consequences" of having unprotected sex) is allowed under Roe, and I would argue that's the way it should be. There's no fundamental right anywhere on the planet that says we have the RIGHT to be optimally free from any "harm".
Your point is well-said—I feel that this the crux of the 'bitter pill' I had to swallow when assessing my own feelings on the recent Rogan fiasco. Obviously, I'm not a fan of his schtick, but I feel that Spotify ultimately made the right call by leaving him be. As a one-time Journalism major, I get the importance of 'free speech,' and to Stadler's point, that often means stomaching a whole of speech that we don't like to hear. The 'body autonomy' argument is the same—I happily got the vaccine and booster, but had it been mandated, I suspect I would've bristled.
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I think the messages were pretty fucking clear right from the first trial results. The vaccines are:
High efficacy at preventing infection
Higher efficacy at preventing hospitalization
Even higher efficacy at preventing ICU/death
As Bosk said, anyone trying to argue otherwise is cherry-picking, gaslighting, or simply wasn't paying attention.
Yes, Omicron lowered those efficacy rates - but the vaccines were ALWAYS better at preventing these three things than no vaccination ... and in many cases, "natural" immunity from infection (at least, in the long term).
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I think the messages were pretty fucking clear right from the first trial results. The vaccines are:
High efficacy at preventing infection
Higher efficacy at preventing hospitalization
Even higher efficacy at preventing ICU/death
As Bosk said, anyone trying to argue otherwise is cherry-picking, gaslighting, or simply wasn't paying attention.
Yes, Omicron lowered those efficacy rates - but the vaccines were ALWAYS better at preventing these three things than no vaccination ... and in many cases, "natural" immunity from infection (at least, in the long term).
Curious to see how this gets selectively picked over...
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I think the messages were pretty fucking clear right from the first trial results. The vaccines are:
High efficacy at preventing infection
Higher efficacy at preventing hospitalization
Even higher efficacy at preventing ICU/death
As Bosk said, anyone trying to argue otherwise is cherry-picking, gaslighting, or simply wasn't paying attention.
Yes, Omicron lowered those efficacy rates - but the vaccines were ALWAYS better at preventing these three things than no vaccination ... and in many cases, "natural" immunity from infection (at least, in the long term).
Any chance we can tone down the proactive ad hominem? We can debate this without it being "cherry-picking, gaslighting, or [not] paying attention". At least where I am, the message WASN'T clear, and seemed to morph with the need of the moment. I get - at least I think I do - the benefits and limitations of the vaccine. I saw it first hand with my parents, both extremely vulnerable but who got COVID, and only had mild symptoms, I believe because they were vaccinated. I am distrustful of the official narrative; I see too many people invested in the fight, the divisiveness, to trust that they are sticking to the objective facts as opposed to "spitting their truth".
There was an undercurrent at the start, at least here in my blue state, that has persevered, and that is "whatever argument works". Which is fine, but let's not pretend that it was a crystalized, concise, clear message from Day One that never wavered.
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the vaccines were ALWAYS better at preventing these three things than no vaccination ... and in many cases, "natural" immunity from infection (at least, in the long term).
At least as pertains to Delta and infection (not necessarily severe outcomes), this is incorrect - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
Each group of people analyzed is in the tens of thousands. No small sample size issues.
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the vaccines were ALWAYS better at preventing these three things than no vaccination ... and in many cases, "natural" immunity from infection (at least, in the long term).
At least as pertains to Delta and infection (not necessarily severe outcomes), this is incorrect - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
Each group of people analyzed is in the tens of thousands. No small sample size issues.
I've read both natural immunity is better or worse than full vaccination. I think the reality is both are probably fairly similar. (my guess, since I read so much conflicting information). They both offer protection and that protection wanes over time. Also right under the headline of that article states "This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice." But would you rather get sick for a week or two and risk complications or take a shot or two for free? This conversation is pretty old and boring at this point.
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"This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice."
Will defer on this question. I think peer review inherently creates bad incentives for conforming with previous consensus but can't speak to the particulars of how it works.
But would you rather get sick for a week or two and risk complications or take a shot or two for free? This conversation is pretty old and boring at this point.
Two issues:
- The shots are not complication free
- A big part of the vaccine push was that you should take it even if you already had COVID, which given the research that's come out later is highly questionable. It also matters as pertains to mandates that don't take into account whether or not you already had the virus
I agree it's old and boring. I have no idea why COVID shots are mandated to do anything but here we are.
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I've read both natural immunity is better or worse than full vaccination. I think the reality is both are probably fairly similar. (my guess, since I read so much conflicting information). They both offer protection and that protection wanes over time. Also right under the headline of that article states "This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice." But would you rather get sick for a week or two and risk complications or take a shot or two for free? This conversation is pretty old and boring at this point.
This is where I'm skeptical of people who think they've got a better grip on the science than governing bodies such as the WHO and CDC. Sure those regulatory bodies may have to change their guidance as the situation develops, but I'm not about to put my money on stuff like what Reapsta has been sharing here, and what others showing a few sources here and there have offered. Being able to critique the status quo does not move me to betting on the 500 point underdog in any scenario, especially when a quick search on these types of articles reveals plenty of room for critique of its own.
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I think the messages were pretty fucking clear right from the first trial results. The vaccines are:
High efficacy at preventing infection
Higher efficacy at preventing hospitalization
Even higher efficacy at preventing ICU/death
As Bosk said, anyone trying to argue otherwise is cherry-picking, gaslighting, or simply wasn't paying attention.
Yes, Omicron lowered those efficacy rates - but the vaccines were ALWAYS better at preventing these three things than no vaccination ... and in many cases, "natural" immunity from infection (at least, in the long term).
Well, not exactly. The "message" itself was not clear, and that is what Reap is latching onto. Various sectors of the federal, state, and local governments absolutely messaged it incorrectly, which is why there IS legitimate confusion. Every level of government under the Biden administration has sent confusing, halfwitted, inaccurate messages that are just as, if not more, offbase than some of the messages during the Trump administration. But my point is simply that, notwithstanding that, we KNOW, and it is crystal clear to anyone paying attention to what vaccines actually do, that the program has largely done what it should have, according to the data thus far. It has been a success.
@Stadler: I'm not even sure what a "proactive ad hominem" is, but if you have to look for it to be proactive, it probably isn't an ad hominem.
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the vaccines were ALWAYS better at preventing these three things than no vaccination ... and in many cases, "natural" immunity from infection (at least, in the long term).
At least as pertains to Delta and infection (not necessarily severe outcomes), this is incorrect - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
Each group of people analyzed is in the tens of thousands. No small sample size issues.
I've read both natural immunity is better or worse than full vaccination. I think the reality is both are probably fairly similar. (my guess, since I read so much conflicting information). They both offer protection and that protection wanes over time. Also right under the headline of that article states "This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice." But would you rather get sick for a week or two and risk complications or take a shot or two for free? This conversation is pretty old and boring at this point.
Exactly this. One scenario is about prevention and the other is about treatment. I know a gal at work whose young kids tested positive and then she got it. She's been clean for 2 weeks but is still struggling breathing and is foggy and tired all the time and she's only 28 was one time vaccinated but decided not to get the booster.
Bummer............
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- The shots are not complication free
No, but strictly speaking, nothing is. Condoms are not "complication free." And using one, even using one correctly, is not a guarantee that one will remain pregnancy free or STD free. However, the odds of complications of any sort are staggeringly low, and the fact that "complications" can and do happen in extremely rare situation does not mean that they aren't effective or that the effectiveness doesn't somehow staggeringly, overwhelmingly outweigh the potential complications.
- A big part of the vaccine push was that you should take it even if you already had COVID, which given the research that's come out later is highly questionable. It also matters as pertains to mandates that don't take into account whether or not you already had the virus
I'm not speaking to the mandates, because I think I've already made my position on mandates clear. But as far as a recommendation--whether someone should get vaccinated under those circumstances--I personally still it is a perfectly reasonable recommendation, given the data. We know that people who have had covid have gotten it again, sometimes several times. We also know of cases of the unvaccinated where early infections were mild and subsequent infections were more severe. And we also know of cases where early infections of the unvaccinated were mild, and person subsequently vaccinated, and subsequent infections were also mild. In those cases, it is a lot harder to make grand proclamations about causation vs. merely correlation. But correlation seems reasonable. Not to mention the separate issue of the vaccines also reducing transmission somewhat. Those benefits, to me, seem to clearly make subsequent vaccination a really good idea.
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@Stadler: I'm not even sure what a "proactive ad hominem" is, but if you have to look for it to be proactive, it probably isn't an ad hominem.
I'm referencing the tactic of chilling further conversation down a particular path by preemptively calling it "gaslighting" or something else.
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the vaccines were ALWAYS better at preventing these three things than no vaccination ... and in many cases, "natural" immunity from infection (at least, in the long term).
At least as pertains to Delta and infection (not necessarily severe outcomes), this is incorrect - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
Each group of people analyzed is in the tens of thousands. No small sample size issues.
I've read both natural immunity is better or worse than full vaccination. I think the reality is both are probably fairly similar. (my guess, since I read so much conflicting information). They both offer protection and that protection wanes over time. Also right under the headline of that article states "This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice." But would you rather get sick for a week or two and risk complications or take a shot or two for free? This conversation is pretty old and boring at this point.
Exactly this. One scenario is about prevention and the other is about treatment. I know a gal at work whose young kids tested positive and then she got it. She's been clean for 2 weeks but is still struggling breathing and is foggy and tired all the time and she's only 28 was one time vaccinated but decided not to get the booster.
Bummer............
But just the fact that it's a question implies that we all have a fair shot at answering it how we see fit. I personally, risked the complications. Someone else in my life opted to take their chances on the two weeks of sick (which he was). You shouldn't have the opportunity to answer that question for me.
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"This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice."
Will defer on this question. I think peer review inherently creates bad incentives for conforming with previous consensus but can't speak to the particulars of how it works.
Peer review is literally the backbone of the scientific process. You don't want the evaluation of expert peers in any field reviewing work for its validity and efficacy?
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I don't really buy that peer-review biases toward consensus. Anyone comments I've seen back from peer-review boards have been very substantial, pointing out flaws with methodology or control failures.
It's just a fact of life that consensus is slow to change. Consensus maybe a "lower case 't' truth", but it's still the best thing we have, and it takes a loooong time of people standing up and demonstrably saying "no that's not right" to change consensus. Doesn't mean it's not the safest bet for the time being.
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"This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice."
Will defer on this question. I think peer review inherently creates bad incentives for conforming with previous consensus but can't speak to the particulars of how it works.
Peer review is literally the backbone of the scientific process. You don't want the evaluation of expert peers in any field reviewing work for its validity and efficacy?
What I want is replication. Without it, there might be some sort of... crisis
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the vaccines were ALWAYS better at preventing these three things than no vaccination ... and in many cases, "natural" immunity from infection (at least, in the long term).
At least as pertains to Delta and infection (not necessarily severe outcomes), this is incorrect - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
Each group of people analyzed is in the tens of thousands. No small sample size issues.
I've read both natural immunity is better or worse than full vaccination. I think the reality is both are probably fairly similar. (my guess, since I read so much conflicting information). They both offer protection and that protection wanes over time. Also right under the headline of that article states "This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice." But would you rather get sick for a week or two and risk complications or take a shot or two for free? This conversation is pretty old and boring at this point.
I defer to experts, but have heard that for a brief period (ie, about 6 months) natural antibodies can be more effective ... but they were found to eventually wane in the case of COVID - at least with Alpha and Delta. Not sure there's data available around Omicron just yet.
As for that site Reapsta linked ... in their own "About" section, this is in bold letters.
"Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information."
This is what I reference as "cherry-picking". Finding the data that supports one's ideas/view in obscure places.
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I think peer review inherently creates bad incentives for conforming with previous consensus but can't speak to the particulars of how it works.
You seem to be implying that you distrust (at best) or know better (at worst) than an entire medical and scientific community, and recognized best practice for decades. Seems odd... but ok.
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- The shots are not complication free
No, but strictly speaking, nothing is. Condoms are not "complication free." And using one, even using one correctly, is not a guarantee that one will remain pregnancy free or STD free. However, the odds of complications of any sort are staggeringly low, and the fact that "complications" can and do happen in extremely rare situation does not mean that they aren't effective or that the effectiveness doesn't somehow staggeringly, overwhelmingly outweigh the potential complications.
- A big part of the vaccine push was that you should take it even if you already had COVID, which given the research that's come out later is highly questionable. It also matters as pertains to mandates that don't take into account whether or not you already had the virus
I'm not speaking to the mandates, because I think I've already made my position on mandates clear. But as far as a recommendation--whether someone should get vaccinated under those circumstances--I personally still it is a perfectly reasonable recommendation, given the data. We know that people who have had covid have gotten it again, sometimes several times. We also know of cases of the unvaccinated where early infections were mild and subsequent infections were more severe. And we also know of cases where early infections of the unvaccinated were mild, and person subsequently vaccinated, and subsequent infections were also mild. In those cases, it is a lot harder to make grand proclamations about causation vs. merely correlation. But correlation seems reasonable. Not to mention the separate issue of the vaccines also reducing transmission somewhat. Those benefits, to me, seem to clearly make subsequent vaccination a really good idea.
In terms of vaccine safety, the following things are strong signal that something is wrong:
- Multiple countries banning Moderna use in under 30's. I've heard of a couple even going to under 30. I know it is engineered differently from Pfizer, but they are still fundamentally the same technology
- This data (https://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMoa2113017/suppl_file/nejmoa2113017_appendix.pdf) from a randomized control trial of the Moderna shot. Where on page 68 the total deaths from both the vaccine and placebo group are the same (about 15k participants each). The incidences of certain adverse effects are far higher in the group data than the control group. For seemingly no value. And there is far more going on than just an enlarged heart
- I'm not sure how the DoD adverse events report is going to pan out (the claims within it are very bad, but it's still a bit of a fringe story), but I know that the response of "Well the data for the previous years was not accurate" is not remotely credible and makes me more likely to think the worst case scenario claims are true
Everything I'm saying is about Moderna because that's where data is available and that's what's scrutinized. The FDA fought in court to avoid releasing the Pfizer data, but finally that will come out. Will be interested in seeing what's revealed in those documents.
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I think peer review inherently creates bad incentives for conforming with previous consensus but can't speak to the particulars of how it works.
You seem to be implying that you distrust (at best) or know better (at worst) than an entire medical and scientific community, and recognized best practice for decades. Seems odd... but ok.
Exactly the point I keep harping on, which has apparently gotten me on Reapsta's "ignore list".
And what's the alternative? Some guy on Youtube? Guys like Malone? Articles that have not yet met any industry standard?
But it hardly matters for people of a more libertarian bent. Because it's not about "take shots at the consensus (or regulations) so that we can work toward improving it (or them)". It's about "take shots at the consensus (or regulations) so that people reject it and it can stop placing artificial limits on the competitive market". I guess that's more of a PR topic, though.
Back on the main topic, this is my third week back at the office and I just feel pretty done. Especially since I've already had COVID, as had the son I was desperately trying to protect. I'll keep getting boosters with my flu shot and wearing masks as long as asked, but I really feel the psychology of being told to go back to the office has worn on my a bit already, and I can imagine how that's the case for people who never had the ability to WFH. There's something that just really had me taking it more seriously when the company was saying "this is so important to us, we want you to work from home". I'm still following the guidance to the best of my ability, but working in an environment where that no longer plays is definitely having an effect on my willpower.
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As for that site Reapsta linked ... in their own "About" section, this is in bold letters.
"Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information."
Okay so then read the study yourself. I think the methodology seems sound. Take a point in time where people are or are not vaccinated. See what outcomes happen over the next few months. They have a large sample size. The one thing you could pick apart is that they do controls for age and other health factors. I think this is wise, but you could argue they did it wrong, or weren't transparent enough in their methods, for whatever reason.
What if you read it yourself? What's your opinion?
This is what I reference as "cherry-picking". Finding the data that supports one's ideas/view in obscure places.
In my experience, obscure places are the only place to find real information about anything. Even when operating under the best of intentions, there are uncomfortable/nuanced aspects of any field that don't translate well into broadly popular mainstream publications.
And please, can we stop with saying "cherry picking"? Either what I'm saying is broadly mis-representing some larger point or it is not. If it is, then why.
You seem to be implying that you distrust (at best) or know better (at worst) than an entire medical and scientific community, and recognized best practice for decades. Seems odd... but ok.
Absolutely a matter of distrust. Even if they are good at science, everyone is subject to the incentives they operate under. I trust not the incentives under which mainstream science operates. To me a lot of what's happening with mRNA vaccine hype is string theory all over again.
Exactly the point I keep harping on, which has apparently gotten me on Reapsta's "ignore list".
Not my intention.
And what's the alternative? Some guy on Youtube? Guys like Malone? Articles that have not yet met any industry standard?
I'd trust either more than our public health authorities. But again I'd read multiple sources (that aren't deliberately lying to you) and draw your own conclusion.
In Googling this stuff I've seen links to studies that disagree with my opinion that don't seem to be written by liars. I find they tend to study from small sample sizes or weird obscure things in the data, but they do exist.
But it hardly matters for people of a more libertarian bent. Because it's not about "take shots at the consensus (or regulations) so that we can work toward improving it (or them)". It's about "take shots at the consensus (or regulations) so that people reject it and it can stop placing artificial limits on the competitive market". I guess that's more of a PR topic, though.
In fairness, you've kind of got me. But the issue to me is that any consensus seeking organization by nature cannot reach a good result. Competition is inefficient but it's the only way, at a societal scale, to produce valuable/accurate results.
Back on the main topic, this is my third week back at the office and I just feel pretty done. Especially since I've already had COVID, as had the son I was desperately trying to protect. I'll keep getting boosters with my flu shot and wearing masks as long as asked, but I really feel the psychology of being told to go back to the office has worn on my a bit already, and I can imagine how that's the case for people who never had the ability to WFH. There's something that just really had me taking it more seriously when the company was saying "this is so important to us, we want you to work from home". I'm still following the guidance to the best of my ability, but working in an environment where that no longer plays is definitely having an effect on my willpower.
I got sent to do WFH in March of 2020. Would never want to go back to the office. Sorry they're sending you back.
Also agreed as to the aspect of "oh guys we care so much about COVID lol just kidding it's no longer profitable." My company was giving extra pay to certain workers during the height of COVID, then took away that extra pay as well as the extra time off even as it was talking about how we still need to fight the pandemic. Talking out of both sides of their mouths!
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Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.
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But it hardly matters for people of a more libertarian bent. Because it's not about "take shots at the consensus (or regulations) so that we can work toward improving it (or them)". It's about "take shots at the consensus (or regulations) so that people reject it and it can stop placing artificial limits on the competitive market". I guess that's more of a PR topic, though.
Funny enough, but there's someone here of a more libertarian bent. I'm not interested in "taking shots" at anyone, and in fact that is what I'm trying to avoid. For every "shot" from a libertarian bent, there's an equal and opposite "shot" from the consensus. We're gaslighting. We're cherry-picking. We're nose picking. We're whatever.
Back on the main topic, this is my third week back at the office and I just feel pretty done. Especially since I've already had COVID, as had the son I was desperately trying to protect. I'll keep getting boosters with my flu shot and wearing masks as long as asked, but I really feel the psychology of being told to go back to the office has worn on my a bit already, and I can imagine how that's the case for people who never had the ability to WFH. There's something that just really had me taking it more seriously when the company was saying "this is so important to us, we want you to work from home". I'm still following the guidance to the best of my ability, but working in an environment where that no longer plays is definitely having an effect on my willpower.
Willpower for what? Staying up with the protocols? I know having been in the office last week for a couple days, and watching how most do (or don't) stick with the plan, I can tell you that in the group environment, it's difficult to stay disciplined. And a week before that, we were in a group meeting and the entire group - 8-ish people - agreed that we were distanced enough and all vaccinated, and so we didn't require each other to wear masks. Someone else came in about halfway through the day and after about 45 minutes made an issue of the lack of masks. It's hard to know what IS right versus what just "seems" right.
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The reason obscure places remain obscure is because they're usually populated by bullshit.
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As for that site Reapsta linked ... in their own "About" section, this is in bold letters.
"Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information."
Okay so then read the study yourself. I think the methodology seems sound. Take a point in time where people are or are not vaccinated. See what outcomes happen over the next few months. They have a large sample size. The one thing you could pick apart is that they do controls for age and other health factors. I think this is wise, but you could argue they did it wrong, or weren't transparent enough in their methods, for whatever reason.
What if you read it yourself? What's your opinion?
I'm grossly hesitant on the response of 'do your own research'.... I don't have to do my own research - I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm more of an expert than an entire global community with decades of experience, education, and expertise.
In my experience, obscure places are the only place to find real information about anything. Even when operating under the best of intentions, there are uncomfortable/nuanced aspects of any field that don't translate well into broadly popular mainstream publications.
What exactly is your experience / credentials? Serious question, I'm not baiting, I'm genuinely curious.
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Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.
This is what I'm fearful of. Restrictions would be better eased one at a time to see / measure the impact. Capacities ... then masks... then vaccine requirements .... Doing them all at once leaves a strong possibility of another yo-yo effect of having to reintroduce restrictions. It's happened every time a new wave comes along - last thing needed is to create a self-induced wave.
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As for that site Reapsta linked ... in their own "About" section, this is in bold letters.
"Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information."
Okay so then read the study yourself. I think the methodology seems sound. Take a point in time where people are or are not vaccinated. See what outcomes happen over the next few months. They have a large sample size. The one thing you could pick apart is that they do controls for age and other health factors. I think this is wise, but you could argue they did it wrong, or weren't transparent enough in their methods, for whatever reason.
What if you read it yourself? What's your opinion?
I'm grossly hesitant on the response of 'do your own research'.... I don't have to do my own research - I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm more of an expert than an entire global community with decades of experience, education, and expertise.
In my experience, obscure places are the only place to find real information about anything. Even when operating under the best of intentions, there are uncomfortable/nuanced aspects of any field that don't translate well into broadly popular mainstream publications.
What exactly is your experience / credentials? Serious question, I'm not baiting, I'm genuinely curious.
If education wasn't so damn expensive, I am sure a lot of people will gladly become educated about the same topics the experts learned at their institutions.
Being a scholar and someone who likes to learn means always striving to educate one self. If you know and understand where and what those institutions are teaching and how, you can do the same yourself. Even at that those experts do not agree with each other and will agree to disagree and leave it at that.
I think a great question to ask people is...What if all you knew and understood turned out to be completely wrong?
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[Willpower for what? Staying up with the protocols? I know having been in the office last week for a couple days, and watching how most do (or don't) stick with the plan, I can tell you that in the group environment, it's difficult to stay disciplined. And a week before that, we were in a group meeting and the entire group - 8-ish people - agreed that we were distanced enough and all vaccinated, and so we didn't require each other to wear masks. Someone else came in about halfway through the day and after about 45 minutes made an issue of the lack of masks. It's hard to know what IS right versus what just "seems" right.
This is completely true. I took my daughter to a kid's birthday party on Saturday. It was in a local community center room, and was a combined kids/family party. There must have been at least 100 people in the room, with less than 5 keeping their masks on for the two hours that we were there. Most did not wear masks, including me. My daughter wore hers at first, but opted to take it off since she was running around.
I generally kept to myself and didn't mingle, but I certainly would have felt weird wearing a mask for two hours when nobody else was. I never felt at-risk, since I didn't have many people close to me at any given time, but after two years of hearing from experts and politicians that it's not advisable to put yourself into those situations, it does feel weird to attend a big party.
I tend to go with the flow - if I'm in a store or public place where it is required (through February 28th here in Illinois), then I follow suit. But in a smaller social setting or my office, I'll usually not wear one. We really have to get used to not wearing masks all the time again - it's what I tell my wife when we talk about the school masking issue. I'm not a fan of how this lawsuit in Illinois ripped the band aid off and is forcing a more immediate change instead of allowing the schools to make a gradual adjustment for the kids, but at the same time, I do see that it's not a practice that can be maintained indefinitely with no end.
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Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.
This is what I'm fearful of. Restrictions would be better eased one at a time to see / measure the impact. Capacities ... then masks... then vaccine requirements .... Doing them all at once leaves a strong possibility of another yo-yo effect of having to reintroduce restrictions. It's happened every time a new wave comes along - last thing needed is to create a self-induced wave.
Except.... COVID has consistently defied these easy extrapolations. California, Florida.
For example, those Denmark numbers make me skeptical, IF you follow the experts that say the incubation period is 2 to 14 days (google "COVID Incubation period" and you'll get more valid sources than you can shake a testing swab at). That means that basically literally at day ONE of the relaxation, everyone not only stopped all protocols, but somehow operated instantaneously to propagate that virus MORE than when we didn't even know we HAD a virus.
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Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.
This is what I'm fearful of. Restrictions would be better eased one at a time to see / measure the impact. Capacities ... then masks... then vaccine requirements .... Doing them all at once leaves a strong possibility of another yo-yo effect of having to reintroduce restrictions. It's happened every time a new wave comes along - last thing needed is to create a self-induced wave.
I mentioned the other week that I thought it was odd for Sweden to loosen restrictions when their spike wasn't even done yet. I didn't look until now at Denmark's cases... wtf were they thinking? Basically just got under the peak and now it's peaked again. Why not wait until that actually goes down? Either way, I'd imagine it will still go down, just going to take a bit longer and maybe costs some more lives.
If education wasn't so damn expensive, I am sure a lot of people will gladly become educated about the same topics the experts learned at their institutions.
Most people don't become educated in sciences because they don't have the desire to study and work hard enough to become educated.
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As for that site Reapsta linked ... in their own "About" section, this is in bold letters.
"Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information."
Okay so then read the study yourself. I think the methodology seems sound. Take a point in time where people are or are not vaccinated. See what outcomes happen over the next few months. They have a large sample size. The one thing you could pick apart is that they do controls for age and other health factors. I think this is wise, but you could argue they did it wrong, or weren't transparent enough in their methods, for whatever reason.
What if you read it yourself? What's your opinion?
I'm grossly hesitant on the response of 'do your own research'.... I don't have to do my own research - I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm more of an expert than an entire global community with decades of experience, education, and expertise.
Even if you don't want to read the papers yourself there are actual medical doctors/researches who disagree with the consensus around COVID. Are their opinions invalid because they're in the minority?
In my experience, obscure places are the only place to find real information about anything. Even when operating under the best of intentions, there are uncomfortable/nuanced aspects of any field that don't translate well into broadly popular mainstream publications.
What exactly is your experience / credentials? Serious question, I'm not baiting, I'm genuinely curious.
I do data analysis for a living and did IT before that. Took university class in study design. Expert I am not but it's not like I open the papers and am like "lol fancy numbers."
Always gotta look for that one stack overflow question or that one Youtube video with under 2,000 views that actually explains what you're looking for.
There are other things I've done... I don't feel like power levelling myself too much, where the best knowledge is found in listening to tons of interviews with people who have done it before and picking out the random helpful tidbits here and there. Whereas a lot of the time the books give a good high level overview but are light on specifics.
And in terms of psychology, the weird freudian shit is basically mandatory reading, as long as you then compare it with the more up-to-date/scientific research.
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Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.
This is what I'm fearful of. Restrictions would be better eased one at a time to see / measure the impact. Capacities ... then masks... then vaccine requirements .... Doing them all at once leaves a strong possibility of another yo-yo effect of having to reintroduce restrictions. It's happened every time a new wave comes along - last thing needed is to create a self-induced wave.
I mentioned the other week that I thought it was odd for Sweden to loosen restrictions when their spike wasn't even done yet. I didn't look until now at Denmark's cases... wtf were they thinking? Basically just got under the peak and now it's peaked again. Why not wait until that actually goes down? Either way, I'd imagine it will still go down, just going to take a bit longer and maybe costs some more lives.
If education wasn't so damn expensive, I am sure a lot of people will gladly become educated about the same topics the experts learned at their institutions.
Most people don't become educated in sciences because they don't have the desire to study and work hard enough to become educated.
So people are too lazy to actually do the work involved in learning something new?
That's says more about human behaviors to me. That people do not have enough will power to actually put in the work involved in order to achieve. Why do people not have that drive and desire to work for stuff?
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As for that site Reapsta linked ... in their own "About" section, this is in bold letters.
"Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information."
Okay so then read the study yourself. I think the methodology seems sound. Take a point in time where people are or are not vaccinated. See what outcomes happen over the next few months. They have a large sample size. The one thing you could pick apart is that they do controls for age and other health factors. I think this is wise, but you could argue they did it wrong, or weren't transparent enough in their methods, for whatever reason.
What if you read it yourself? What's your opinion?
I'm grossly hesitant on the response of 'do your own research'.... I don't have to do my own research - I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm more of an expert than an entire global community with decades of experience, education, and expertise.
In my experience, obscure places are the only place to find real information about anything. Even when operating under the best of intentions, there are uncomfortable/nuanced aspects of any field that don't translate well into broadly popular mainstream publications.
What exactly is your experience / credentials? Serious question, I'm not baiting, I'm genuinely curious.
If education wasn't so damn expensive, I am sure a lot of people will gladly become educated about the same topics the experts learned at their institutions.
Being a scholar and someone who likes to learn means always striving to educate one self. If you know and understand where and what those institutions are teaching and how, you can do the same yourself. Even at that those experts do not agree with each other and will agree to disagree and leave it at that.
I think a great question to ask people is...What if all you knew and understood turned out to be completely wrong?
When an extremely high amount of experts say to get the virus, I'm going to lean to them. If it were 60/40 or 50/50 then yeah, I'd read up more. That's where Chad is going. The majority say take the vaccine. The outliers saying don't is minimal.
ReaP to answer your question. Yes. When it's so lopsided from experts on taking the vaccine, their opinion should be looked at as an outlier.
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Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.
This is what I'm fearful of. Restrictions would be better eased one at a time to see / measure the impact. Capacities ... then masks... then vaccine requirements .... Doing them all at once leaves a strong possibility of another yo-yo effect of having to reintroduce restrictions. It's happened every time a new wave comes along - last thing needed is to create a self-induced wave.
I mentioned the other week that I thought it was odd for Sweden to loosen restrictions when their spike wasn't even done yet. I didn't look until now at Denmark's cases... wtf were they thinking? Basically just got under the peak and now it's peaked again. Why not wait until that actually goes down? Either way, I'd imagine it will still go down, just going to take a bit longer and maybe costs some more lives.
If education wasn't so damn expensive, I am sure a lot of people will gladly become educated about the same topics the experts learned at their institutions.
Most people don't become educated in sciences because they don't have the desire to study and work hard enough to become educated.
So people are too lazy to actually do the work involved in learning something new?
That's says more about human behaviors to me. That people do not have enough will power to actually put in the work involved in order to achieve. Why do people not have that drive and desire to work for stuff?
Not sure why you would be surprised about this.
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When an extremely high amount of experts say to get the virus, I'm going to lean to them.
God dammit Joe!
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Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.
This is what I'm fearful of. Restrictions would be better eased one at a time to see / measure the impact. Capacities ... then masks... then vaccine requirements .... Doing them all at once leaves a strong possibility of another yo-yo effect of having to reintroduce restrictions. It's happened every time a new wave comes along - last thing needed is to create a self-induced wave.
I mentioned the other week that I thought it was odd for Sweden to loosen restrictions when their spike wasn't even done yet. I didn't look until now at Denmark's cases... wtf were they thinking? Basically just got under the peak and now it's peaked again. Why not wait until that actually goes down? Either way, I'd imagine it will still go down, just going to take a bit longer and maybe costs some more lives.
If education wasn't so damn expensive, I am sure a lot of people will gladly become educated about the same topics the experts learned at their institutions.
Most people don't become educated in sciences because they don't have the desire to study and work hard enough to become educated.
So people are too lazy to actually do the work involved in learning something new?
That's says more about human behaviors to me. That people do not have enough will power to actually put in the work involved in order to achieve. Why do people not have that drive and desire to work for stuff?
Not sure why you would be surprised about this.
I lived in a first year of science and engineering dorm in college freshman year. Id say about 80% of the people got weeded out into easier majors. Humans generally are lazy, but also, some things just aren't meant for people. Not everyone is good with math for example.
Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.
This is what I'm fearful of. Restrictions would be better eased one at a time to see / measure the impact. Capacities ... then masks... then vaccine requirements .... Doing them all at once leaves a strong possibility of another yo-yo effect of having to reintroduce restrictions. It's happened every time a new wave comes along - last thing needed is to create a self-induced wave.
Except.... COVID has consistently defied these easy extrapolations. California, Florida.
For example, those Denmark numbers make me skeptical, IF you follow the experts that say the incubation period is 2 to 14 days (google "COVID Incubation period" and you'll get more valid sources than you can shake a testing swab at). That means that basically literally at day ONE of the relaxation, everyone not only stopped all protocols, but somehow operated instantaneously to propagate that virus MORE than when we didn't even know we HAD a virus.
I took a look at Denmark's numbers. The two peaks are about 2 weeks apart. Seems plausible to me that easing restrictions may have lead to the second spike. Obviously, that's hard to say as a fact, but it looks very possible. My statement earlier makes me really wonder why they eased when the spike didn't even come down, it was just starting to come down. I still think NJ got it right, waited until the peak was completely over to announce lifting restrictions, but the loosing still doesn't happen for a month. NJ also never re-imposed a statewide mask mandate. I think the state actually handled covid well since the vaccines made their way to the masses. Doesn't mean covid didn't do its damage, but there's only so much that mandating can do in the end.
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When an extremely high amount of experts say to get the virus, I'm going to lean to them.
God dammit Joe!
I was on a roll dammit! :lol Vaccine!
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- The shots are not complication free
No, but strictly speaking, nothing is. Condoms are not "complication free." And using one, even using one correctly, is not a guarantee that one will remain pregnancy free or STD free. However, the odds of complications of any sort are staggeringly low, and the fact that "complications" can and do happen in extremely rare situation does not mean that they aren't effective or that the effectiveness doesn't somehow staggeringly, overwhelmingly outweigh the potential complications.
- A big part of the vaccine push was that you should take it even if you already had COVID, which given the research that's come out later is highly questionable. It also matters as pertains to mandates that don't take into account whether or not you already had the virus
I'm not speaking to the mandates, because I think I've already made my position on mandates clear. But as far as a recommendation--whether someone should get vaccinated under those circumstances--I personally still it is a perfectly reasonable recommendation, given the data. We know that people who have had covid have gotten it again, sometimes several times. We also know of cases of the unvaccinated where early infections were mild and subsequent infections were more severe. And we also know of cases where early infections of the unvaccinated were mild, and person subsequently vaccinated, and subsequent infections were also mild. In those cases, it is a lot harder to make grand proclamations about causation vs. merely correlation. But correlation seems reasonable. Not to mention the separate issue of the vaccines also reducing transmission somewhat. Those benefits, to me, seem to clearly make subsequent vaccination a really good idea.
Are you seriously comparing wearing a condom and having it fail in preventing pregnancy/STDs to the life altering adverse reactions that thousands around the globe are experiencing when getting injected with these shots?
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When an extremely high amount of experts say to get the virus, I'm going to lean to them.
God dammit Joe!
I was on a roll dammit! :lol Vaccine!
That might be your best typo ever
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As for that site Reapsta linked ... in their own "About" section, this is in bold letters.
"Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information."
Okay so then read the study yourself. I think the methodology seems sound. Take a point in time where people are or are not vaccinated. See what outcomes happen over the next few months. They have a large sample size. The one thing you could pick apart is that they do controls for age and other health factors. I think this is wise, but you could argue they did it wrong, or weren't transparent enough in their methods, for whatever reason.
What if you read it yourself? What's your opinion?
I'm grossly hesitant on the response of 'do your own research'.... I don't have to do my own research - I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm more of an expert than an entire global community with decades of experience, education, and expertise.
In my experience, obscure places are the only place to find real information about anything. Even when operating under the best of intentions, there are uncomfortable/nuanced aspects of any field that don't translate well into broadly popular mainstream publications.
What exactly is your experience / credentials? Serious question, I'm not baiting, I'm genuinely curious.
If education wasn't so damn expensive, I am sure a lot of people will gladly become educated about the same topics the experts learned at their institutions.
Being a scholar and someone who likes to learn means always striving to educate one self. If you know and understand where and what those institutions are teaching and how, you can do the same yourself. Even at that those experts do not agree with each other and will agree to disagree and leave it at that.
I think a great question to ask people is...What if all you knew and understood turned out to be completely wrong?
When an extremely high amount of experts say to get the virus, I'm going to lean to them. If it were 60/40 or 50/50 then yeah, I'd read up more. That's where Chad is going. The majority say take the vaccine. The outliers saying don't is minimal.
ReaP to answer your question. Yes. When it's so lopsided from experts on taking the vaccine, their opinion should be looked at as an outlier.
Something you may want to consider reading up on a bit more is a concept called regulatory capture, which is about as much of a conspiracy theory as tax fraud. This will explain why such a high amount of "experts" have been pushing the vaccine.
I'm sure you wouldn't mind a live, unfiltered, televised debate between the "experts" and the so-called "outliers", correct? I know the "experts" sure would, which is why they have been doing everything in their power to censor, de-platform, and de-legitimize all dissenting views that don't align in lockstep with the official narrative.
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Are you seriously comparing wearing a condom and having it fail in preventing pregnancy/STDs to the life altering adverse reactions that thousands around the globe are experiencing when getting injected with these shots?
No, he's probably saying that the absolute success rate is about the same and the general safety is about the same, though I think that's probably underselling the vaccine. But even in your original example, yeah, getting pregnant or getting an STD is about as life altering as a bad vaccine reaction. How many people got a serious adverse reaction compared to how many people got seriously sick from COVID, a wave of which could only be stopped by vaccines, is a very very very small number compared to a mountain of cases.
For sure, there is some alternate source that "questions the official narrative" that I am undoubtedly going to be referred back to. Nevermind that "the official narrative" is a stream of mutually verifiable news/facts/data/COVID history compiled by tens upon tens of thousands of medical workers all around the globe even first hand over social media, and journalists/communication experts who pass that on through news sources and official organizations.
This isn't about whether CNN thinks your ingroup is right politically or whether it's wrong. It's not opinion journalism, but on vaccines this time as a singular issue instead of this or that politician. The "official narrative" isn't preselected or vetted or subjected to bias of a minority of journalists, it is formed in real time, almost minute-by-minute at first as everyone reported on every little thing happening with COVID.
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Even if you don't want to read the papers yourself there are actual medical doctors/researches who disagree with the consensus around COVID. Are their opinions invalid because they're in the minority?
This is anecdotal, but one of my medical doctor friends (pediatrist, so not really a virologist, but smart educated person) was/is very against the mainstream around covid. Every time I try to get him to show me data to support what he was saying, it was some oddball resource that was unverified and I could find a verified source that showed he was wrong. You mention that peer reviewing can show bias, but do you think you also have a bias that's skewing your vision here? I know for a fact the person I'm talking about is easily skewed by hard right politics because he regularly shares bogus alex jones related stuff as his proof of things. Once again, smart and educated medical doctor but quite clearly letting his bias get into the way.
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Something you may want to consider reading up on a bit more is a concept called regulatory capture, which is about as much of a conspiracy theory as tax fraud. This will explain why such a high amount of "experts" have been pushing the vaccine.
Not just regulatory capture, but what Pharmaceutical companies they own stock in or who writes their grant checks. If you need the national institute of health to fund your research, then are you going to publicly speak out against it?
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Something you may want to consider reading up on a bit more is a concept called regulatory capture, which is about as much of a conspiracy theory as tax fraud. This will explain why such a high amount of "experts" have been pushing the vaccine.
Not just regulatory capture, but what Pharmaceutical companies they own stock in or who writes their grant checks. If you need the national institute of health to fund your research, then are you going to publicly speak out against it?
Exactly. "Oh, you're thinking about speaking out against what you see is clearly morally, ethically, and scientifically wrong? I guess you don't want that grant money then..."
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Even if you don't want to read the papers yourself there are actual medical doctors/researches who disagree with the consensus around COVID. Are their opinions invalid because they're in the minority?
This is anecdotal, but one of my medical doctor friends (pediatrist, so not really a virologist, but smart educated person) was/is very against the mainstream around covid. Every time I try to get him to show me data to support what he was saying, it was some oddball resource that was unverified and I could find a verified source that showed he was wrong. You mention that peer reviewing can show bias, but do you think you also have a bias that's skewing your vision here? I know for a fact the person I'm talking about is easily skewed by hard right politics because he regularly shares bogus alex jones related stuff as his proof of things. Once again, smart and educated medical doctor but quite clearly letting his bias get into the way.
I am absolutely biased. But I've changed my mind on COVID before and, I assume, could change it again.
But you're getting into the verified/unverified sources thing again. I know a bunch of people are talking about expert consensus, and in some cases it's a valid way to look at things, but COVID has become too political. Too much clout and money is involved in who makes what decisions and has what opinions about COVID. I would generally trust the expert consensus in something like, say, astronomy. If you go out and say you think Dark Energy is a clumsy explanation for holes in existing scientific theories, you aren't going to be called a merchant of death on Twitter, be banned from Youtube, and lose your ability to get grant funding (at least I hope this is the case).
But inasmuch as expert consensus is useful (and I don't think it's that useful to begin with, lack of competition pressure to test ideas), it's not useful here because of the politics involved.
I don't know your doctor or their specific arguments. Maybe their information does suck. But verified/unverified is not the determinate factor here.
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I'll agree with you that covid has become too political.
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Something you may want to consider reading up on a bit more is a concept called regulatory capture, which is about as much of a conspiracy theory as tax fraud. This will explain why such a high amount of "experts" have been pushing the vaccine.
Not just regulatory capture, but what Pharmaceutical companies they own stock in or who writes their grant checks. If you need the national institute of health to fund your research, then are you going to publicly speak out against it?
Exactly. "Oh, you're thinking about speaking out against what you see is clearly morally, ethically, and scientifically wrong? I guess you don't want that grant money then..."
This is a very frequent obstacle in these discussions and it needs to be addressed as head-on as I possibly can: are you guys aware that you live in a world whose borders spread far beyond North America, that the CDC isn't the supreme overlord of the planet's entire health industry, and a variety of vaccines is currently being used (and a further variety is being developed), only one or two of which received *some* funding from your national institutions? Capture of which regulatory bodies, the entire world's? Be precise - how are citizens in China, Brazil, France, Norway, Serbia, Australia, Monaco and Nigeria concretely being harmed by "the narrative" on vaccines, which is morally, ethically and scientifically wrong? Which politicians are pulling the strings here? Who decided this would happen? Whose money? Again, feel free to be as precise as possible, if this is so transparently wrong and a non-expert can take it apart so easily and casually.
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:corn
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Even if you don't want to read the papers yourself there are actual medical doctors/researches who disagree with the consensus around COVID. Are their opinions invalid because they're in the minority?
In the face of conflicting information amongst experts, I'll tend to lean towards siding with the masses. Let me ask you this, you get 9 doctors that diagnose you with prostate cancer, and one who operates in an obscure, hard to find location who says you're healthy as a horse. Who are you going to tend to believe believe?
Always gotta look for that one stack overflow question or that one Youtube video with under 2,000 views that actually explains what you're looking for.
EXACTLY .... "what you're looking for". Thanks for proving that point.
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Even if you don't want to read the papers yourself there are actual medical doctors/researches who disagree with the consensus around COVID. Are their opinions invalid because they're in the minority?
In the face of conflicting information amongst experts, I'll tend to lean towards siding with the masses. Let me ask you this, you get 9 doctors that diagnose you with prostate cancer, and one who operates in an obscure, hard to find location who says you're healthy as a horse. Who are you going to tend to believe believe?
Always gotta look for that one stack overflow question or that one Youtube video with under 2,000 views that actually explains what you're looking for.
EXACTLY .... "what you're looking for". Thanks for proving that point.
In this example, is the one doctor the only one who is able to actually run a lab test to confirm?
This feeds into the second point you're making. The data supporting the various COVID mitigation methods that I have seen is, by and large, deeply flawed. As is a lot of the data saying "lol the vaccines are actually a conspiracy to sterilize the population." I have no interest in engaging with junk science just because it supports conclusions I agree with. I hope that's not what you're suggesting.
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Something you may want to consider reading up on a bit more is a concept called regulatory capture, which is about as much of a conspiracy theory as tax fraud. This will explain why such a high amount of "experts" have been pushing the vaccine.
Not just regulatory capture, but what Pharmaceutical companies they own stock in or who writes their grant checks. If you need the national institute of health to fund your research, then are you going to publicly speak out against it?
Exactly. "Oh, you're thinking about speaking out against what you see is clearly morally, ethically, and scientifically wrong? I guess you don't want that grant money then..."
This is a very frequent obstacle in these discussions and it needs to be addressed as head-on as I possibly can: are you guys aware that you live in a world whose borders spread far beyond North America, that the CDC isn't the supreme overlord of the planet's entire health industry, and a variety of vaccines is currently being used (and a further variety is being developed), only one or two of which received *some* funding from your national institutions? Capture of which regulatory bodies, the entire world's? Be precise - how are citizens in China, Brazil, France, Norway, Serbia, Australia, Monaco and Nigeria concretely being harmed by "the narrative" on vaccines, which is morally, ethically and scientifically wrong? Which politicians are pulling the strings here? Who decided this would happen? Whose money? Again, feel free to be as precise as possible, if this is so transparently wrong and a non-expert can take it apart so easily and casually.
Are you familiar with Klaus Schwab, executive chairman of the World Economic Forum and author of "COVID-19: The Great Reset"? His teachings may interest you...
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This is a very frequent obstacle in these discussions and it needs to be addressed as head-on as I possibly can: are you guys aware that you live in a world whose borders spread far beyond North America, that the CDC isn't the supreme overlord of the planet's entire health industry, and a variety of vaccines is currently being used (and a further variety is being developed), only one or two of which received *some* funding from your national institutions? Capture of which regulatory bodies, the entire world's? Be precise - how are citizens in China, Brazil, France, Norway, Serbia, Australia, Monaco and Nigeria concretely being harmed by "the narrative" on vaccines, which is morally, ethically and scientifically wrong? Which politicians are pulling the strings here? Who decided this would happen? Whose money? Again, feel free to be as precise as possible, if this is so transparently wrong and a non-expert can take it apart so easily and casually.
Very fair point. I've heard random stories from other countries. Some German internal government report talking about how they needed their government messaging to more actively spread fear about COVID. A hot mic conversation among Israeli government officials talking about how they were pushing Pfizer shots because of the big contract they signed with that company.
One thing I would say is, a lot of the better COVID research seems to come from countries not America because they don't seem dedicated to promoting narratives the way we are (admitted defect in American culture). I also think, in general, looking at how corrupt America's institutions are, I have a hard time believing none of the rest of the world is the same way at all. Doesn't seem realistic.
But you're right that in the end I don't follow political dynamics in the rest of the world closely enough to speak on them, or their credibility, with any specificity.
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Are you familiar with Klaus Schwab, executive chairman of the World Economic Forum and author of "COVID-19: The Great Reset"? His teachings may interest you...
As someone who does not have time to read a 110 page document, who exactly does Mr Schwab think it orchestrating such a plan?
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Are you familiar with Klaus Schwab, executive chairman of the World Economic Forum and author of "COVID-19: The Great Reset"? His teachings may interest you...
As someone who does not have time to read a 110 page document, who exactly does Mr Schwab think it orchestrating such a plan?
I would also be interested in this response.
Every piece of rhetoric I see come out of the WEF is disturbing, but I think it's more an expression of what a certain class of people already think rather than any sort of driver of policy.
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Even if you don't want to read the papers yourself there are actual medical doctors/researches who disagree with the consensus around COVID. Are their opinions invalid because they're in the minority?
This is anecdotal, but one of my medical doctor friends (pediatrist, so not really a virologist, but smart educated person) was/is very against the mainstream around covid. Every time I try to get him to show me data to support what he was saying, it was some oddball resource that was unverified and I could find a verified source that showed he was wrong. You mention that peer reviewing can show bias, but do you think you also have a bias that's skewing your vision here? I know for a fact the person I'm talking about is easily skewed by hard right politics because he regularly shares bogus alex jones related stuff as his proof of things. Once again, smart and educated medical doctor but quite clearly letting his bias get into the way.
I am absolutely biased. But I've changed my mind on COVID before and, I assume, could change it again.
But you're getting into the verified/unverified sources thing again. I know a bunch of people are talking about expert consensus, and in some cases it's a valid way to look at things, but COVID has become too political. Too much clout and money is involved in who makes what decisions and has what opinions about COVID. I would generally trust the expert consensus in something like, say, astronomy. If you go out and say you think Dark Energy is a clumsy explanation for holes in existing scientific theories, you aren't going to be called a merchant of death on Twitter, be banned from Youtube, and lose your ability to get grant funding (at least I hope this is the case).
But inasmuch as expert consensus is useful (and I don't think it's that useful to begin with, lack of competition pressure to test ideas), it's not useful here because of the politics involved.
I don't know your doctor or their specific arguments. Maybe their information does suck. But verified/unverified is not the determinate factor here.
And you know why I think it has become too political. Because the entire political system is corrupted. And it's been corrupted long before America's inception. Every civilization has some form of corruption within it's societal social structures for the people to abide by.
Knowing how humans behave and respond should tell you what to expect in these sorts of scenarios. And how people will utilize these moments for their own purposes whether beneficial or detrimental to humans, and even the entire ecosystem of the world.
It's why I said good luck with getting the entire world to take this vaccine. And peoples reasons for why they won't vary based on various determinations.
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And you know why I think it has become too political. Because the entire political system is corrupted. And it's been corrupted long before America's inception. Every civilization has some form of corruption within it's societal social structures for the people to abide by.
Knowing how humans behave and respond should tell you what to expect in these sorts of scenarios. And how people will utilize these moments for their own purposes whether beneficial or detrimental to humans, and even the entire ecosystem of the world.
It's why I said good luck with getting the entire world to take this vaccine. And peoples reasons for why they won't vary based on various determinations.
I agree in a broad sense, but then what. The world is running off a cliff. Either it needs to be stopped or there need to be parachutes available for the people who want them.
While I've mostly been coming at this from... a certain view point, this is a both sides problem. Why any older/at risk person didn't get a COVID shot is a question well worth asking. I've seen a lot of posts here talking about their "political biases" but that's more a way to put opinions they disagree with in a box that can be disregarded. Everyone's opinions are sincere from their own point of view.
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Oh dear lord. The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk. For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled. *awaits to be told Google is part of it*
Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."
The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.
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Something you may want to consider reading up on a bit more is a concept called regulatory capture, which is about as much of a conspiracy theory as tax fraud. This will explain why such a high amount of "experts" have been pushing the vaccine.
Not just regulatory capture, but what Pharmaceutical companies they own stock in or who writes their grant checks. If you need the national institute of health to fund your research, then are you going to publicly speak out against it?
Exactly. "Oh, you're thinking about speaking out against what you see is clearly morally, ethically, and scientifically wrong? I guess you don't want that grant money then..."
This is a very frequent obstacle in these discussions and it needs to be addressed as head-on as I possibly can: are you guys aware that you live in a world whose borders spread far beyond North America, that the CDC isn't the supreme overlord of the planet's entire health industry, and a variety of vaccines is currently being used (and a further variety is being developed), only one or two of which received *some* funding from your national institutions? Capture of which regulatory bodies, the entire world's? Be precise - how are citizens in China, Brazil, France, Norway, Serbia, Australia, Monaco and Nigeria concretely being harmed by "the narrative" on vaccines, which is morally, ethically and scientifically wrong? Which politicians are pulling the strings here? Who decided this would happen? Whose money? Again, feel free to be as precise as possible, if this is so transparently wrong and a non-expert can take it apart so easily and casually.
Well, Brazil and most South American countries, are having a hard enough time keeping people from migrating into the United States as it is. So they have worse things to worry about. They are fighting with the indigenous people for their usage of their land. That's way worse than a disease making you sick. You're being forced off your land in order for the country and others not in your own land to benefit off it's exploitation. The land you utilized for centuries that included healthy habits that did benefit the people. Now all that is gone and you're health suffers because of that. Which is worse, a disease with possiblity of death based on the condition of your health, or the depletion of the land that provides beneficial healthy sustainability taken from you as you're forced to relocate and adapt somewhere unknown?
That's what a lot of those people there have to worry about among this virus, so they're weighing of situations is going to be different than people here in America and elsewhere in the world.
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And you know why I think it has become too political. Because the entire political system is corrupted. And it's been corrupted long before America's inception. Every civilization has some form of corruption within it's societal social structures for the people to abide by.
Knowing how humans behave and respond should tell you what to expect in these sorts of scenarios. And how people will utilize these moments for their own purposes whether beneficial or detrimental to humans, and even the entire ecosystem of the world.
It's why I said good luck with getting the entire world to take this vaccine. And peoples reasons for why they won't vary based on various determinations.
I agree in a broad sense, but then what. The world is running off a cliff. Either it needs to be stopped or there need to be parachutes available for the people who want them.
While I've mostly been coming at this from... a certain view point, this is a both sides problem. Why any older/at risk person didn't get a COVID shot is a question well worth asking. I've seen a lot of posts here talking about their "political biases" but that's more a way to put opinions they disagree with in a box that can be disregarded. Everyone's opinions are sincere from their own point of view.
Then people should learn to do things for themselves like planting and gathering foods, how to build a shelter/home, how to defend themselves from harm, and many other things that people rely on others to do for them.
I said, what if an older person says, "If this is the way I go out then this is how I go." It's as if their mindset is that they themselves feel accepting of dying and are welcoming of it.
It's why I am fascinated with human behaviors and mindsets because every human on this Earth is not the same and will never be. And based on upbringings as a child is how your mindset and behaviors are determined, and the many environmental surroundings that can influence these behaviors and mindsets.
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Then people should learn to do things for themselves like planting and gathering foods, how to build a shelter/home, how to defend themselves from harm, and many other things that people rely on others to do for them.
This is what I'm afraid of. If you have the money to buy a generator/solar panels/fuel/food reserves prepping is a viable lifestyle. For most people, if the electricity can't be delivered because the government is that incompetent, good luck.
I said, what if an older person says, "If this is the way I go out then this is how I go." It's as if their mindset is that they themselves feel accepting of dying and are welcoming of it.
Agreed in the sense of, they have a right to their perspective and maybe I'm wrong. I know before the shots there were older people who said, "Look, if I get COVID I might die. Or if I stay inside I might die of old age or some sickness anyway. If I'm at risk of death, might as well spend it actually being alive." I can even see why older people didn't want to get the shots immediately. New thing. But even the murmurs of side-effects almost exclusively seemed to affect the young. What's the value in wanting to die? Even if you think life sucks, it can always turn around.
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The % of those not vaccinated is higher with the 50 years old and younger group.
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The % of those not vaccinated is higher with the 50 years old and younger group.
Which intuitively runs counter to the thankfully-not-as-prevalent-as-it-could-have-been trope of "liberals vaccinate, conservatives deny" nonsense.
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Oh dear lord. The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk. For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled. *awaits to be told Google is part of it*
Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."
The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.
I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.
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There is no way to over-state the mental health toll the pandemic has taken on people. We have only just begun to grasp the enormity of it all. As we move back into "normal" life (what is that again?) the cracks will continue and develop into fissures right before our eyes. And probably in many of our own homes.
I think very few people will emerge completely unscathed. We are all certainly forever changed.
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There is no way to over-state the mental health toll the pandemic has taken on people. We have only just begun to grasp the enormity of it all. As we move back into "normal" life (what is that again?) the cracks will continue and develop into fissures right before our eyes. And probably in many of our own homes.
I think very few people will emerge completely unscathed. We are all certainly forever changed.
I don’t think the divisiveness of society will go away in any of our lifetimes. That is hear to stay. Sadly.
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There is no way to over-state the mental health toll the pandemic has taken on people. We have only just begun to grasp the enormity of it all. As we move back into "normal" life (what is that again?) the cracks will continue and develop into fissures right before our eyes. And probably in many of our own homes.
I think very few people will emerge completed unscathed. We are all certainly forever changed.
And I see that within many people. What affects me is that fact that it has mentally changed others.
But also, realizations are not always pretty. Those revelations can cause one to question oneself and analyze their entire lifestyle choices and decisions. The lifestyle questions of, is this worth it? Was it worth it?
What helped me a lot was listening to music with a positive message. Those that say, "Even when things get chaotic, everything will be alright."
The strength of ones will is dependent on their mindset in times of turmoil and struggle, keeping that positive attitude and smile while the world is burning behind you. No matter what the outcome is, you never give up to those mental challenges and try and remain positive about your outlook of life.
Edit: I wanted to add that some of these mental health tolls can be self-induced.
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There is no way to over-state the mental health toll the pandemic has taken on people. We have only just begun to grasp the enormity of it all. As we move back into "normal" life (what is that again?) the cracks will continue and develop into fissures right before our eyes. And probably in many of our own homes.
I think very few people will emerge completely unscathed. We are all certainly forever changed.
I don’t think the divisiveness of society will go away in any of our lifetimes. That is hear to stay. Sadly.
If you think it will just happen suddenly in our lifetimes, that's like believing Jesus the savior is returning sometime soon.
There are many, many things that have to happen first before that divisiveness "goes away". That division is based on people's mentalities, and some are cultural based. Every place on this Earth has divisiveness and disagreements. Not everyone will agree on the same issues as everyone has their own opinions on matters.
If everyone was allowed to run for office and get the chance to be elected as an official will see this very thing. There are many great mindsets out there that have some great ideas, but are not wanting to deal with the hassle and baggage that comes with it.
Everything has baggage and these things are not simple. They're complicated and requires a lot of work to achieve those "dreams" of a united utopia.
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My daughter said something very moving today. I told her the mask requirement for school would be ending soon and I asked how she felt about it. She was unsure about the timing of it, and thought some kids would rather keep their masks on, because they might be shy or just more comfortable hiding their faces. I was a shy kid (and became a shy adult). If this happened when I was in school I could have been someone who would prefer wear a mask even once the requirement was lifted (it would have hid the acne too!). But to think a kid would feel more comfortable hiding their face just made me feel sad, to think someone would rather face the world and all it had to offer behind a mask. How would that child grow and develop, foster friends, create intimate relationships?
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@Cool Chris that story is indeed sad and I have the same questions you do.
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The % of those not vaccinated is higher with the 50 years old and younger group.
When a lot of news media has been (incorrectly) communicating the message that COVID does not affect young people since the start of the pandemic, then this might be expected.
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The % of those not vaccinated is higher with the 50 years old and younger group.
When a lot of news media has been (incorrectly) communicating the message that COVID does not affect young people since the start of the pandemic, then this might be expected.
Where I live, its been the opposite. News, commercials pushing for those to get the vaccine.
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My daughter said something very moving today. I told her the mask requirement for school would be ending soon and I asked how she felt about it. She was unsure about the timing of it, and thought some kids would rather keep their masks on, because they might be shy or just more comfortable hiding their faces. I was a shy kid (and became a shy adult). If this happened when I was in school I could have been someone who would prefer wear a mask even once the requirement was lifted (it would have hid the acne too!). But to think a kid would feel more comfortable hiding their face just made me feel sad, to think someone would rather face the world and all it had to offer behind a mask. How would that child grow and develop, foster friends, create intimate relationships?
I get it... That was definitely me as a kid. I did everything in my power to stay invisible. If I can't be seen, then can't be hurt.
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As for that site Reapsta linked ... in their own "About" section, this is in bold letters.
"Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information."
Okay so then read the study yourself. I think the methodology seems sound. Take a point in time where people are or are not vaccinated. See what outcomes happen over the next few months. They have a large sample size. The one thing you could pick apart is that they do controls for age and other health factors. I think this is wise, but you could argue they did it wrong, or weren't transparent enough in their methods, for whatever reason.
What if you read it yourself? What's your opinion?
This is what I reference as "cherry-picking". Finding the data that supports one's ideas/view in obscure places.
In my experience, obscure places are the only place to find real information about anything. Even when operating under the best of intentions, there are uncomfortable/nuanced aspects of any field that don't translate well into broadly popular mainstream publications.
And please, can we stop with saying "cherry picking"? Either what I'm saying is broadly mis-representing some larger point or it is not. If it is, then why.
You seem to be implying that you distrust (at best) or know better (at worst) than an entire medical and scientific community, and recognized best practice for decades. Seems odd... but ok.
Absolutely a matter of distrust. Even if they are good at science, everyone is subject to the incentives they operate under. I trust not the incentives under which mainstream science operates. To me a lot of what's happening with mRNA vaccine hype is string theory all over again.
Exactly the point I keep harping on, which has apparently gotten me on Reapsta's "ignore list".
Not my intention.
And what's the alternative? Some guy on Youtube? Guys like Malone? Articles that have not yet met any industry standard?
I'd trust either more than our public health authorities. But again I'd read multiple sources (that aren't deliberately lying to you) and draw your own conclusion.
In Googling this stuff I've seen links to studies that disagree with my opinion that don't seem to be written by liars. I find they tend to study from small sample sizes or weird obscure things in the data, but they do exist.
But it hardly matters for people of a more libertarian bent. Because it's not about "take shots at the consensus (or regulations) so that we can work toward improving it (or them)". It's about "take shots at the consensus (or regulations) so that people reject it and it can stop placing artificial limits on the competitive market". I guess that's more of a PR topic, though.
In fairness, you've kind of got me. But the issue to me is that any consensus seeking organization by nature cannot reach a good result. Competition is inefficient but it's the only way, at a societal scale, to produce valuable/accurate results.
Back on the main topic, this is my third week back at the office and I just feel pretty done. Especially since I've already had COVID, as had the son I was desperately trying to protect. I'll keep getting boosters with my flu shot and wearing masks as long as asked, but I really feel the psychology of being told to go back to the office has worn on my a bit already, and I can imagine how that's the case for people who never had the ability to WFH. There's something that just really had me taking it more seriously when the company was saying "this is so important to us, we want you to work from home". I'm still following the guidance to the best of my ability, but working in an environment where that no longer plays is definitely having an effect on my willpower.
I got sent to do WFH in March of 2020. Would never want to go back to the office. Sorry they're sending you back.
Also agreed as to the aspect of "oh guys we care so much about COVID lol just kidding it's no longer profitable." My company was giving extra pay to certain workers during the height of COVID, then took away that extra pay as well as the extra time off even as it was talking about how we still need to fight the pandemic. Talking out of both sides of their mouths!
Absolutely appreciate this response, and it confirms what I've suspected all along. We see this from a similar angle (more than you and others might expect), but it just comes down to me thinking it's safer to roll with the tide, and you thinking it's safer to roll against it. I can understand both points of view, but a libertarian I am not. In fact, I'd trust our healthcare system a lot more if we were in France or Taiwan. So I'm sure we could have a lot of good conversations on a number of topics down the line :biggrin:
But it hardly matters for people of a more libertarian bent. Because it's not about "take shots at the consensus (or regulations) so that we can work toward improving it (or them)". It's about "take shots at the consensus (or regulations) so that people reject it and it can stop placing artificial limits on the competitive market". I guess that's more of a PR topic, though.
Funny enough, but there's someone here of a more libertarian bent. I'm not interested in "taking shots" at anyone, and in fact that is what I'm trying to avoid. For every "shot" from a libertarian bent, there's an equal and opposite "shot" from the consensus. We're gaslighting. We're cherry-picking. We're nose picking. We're whatever.
Back on the main topic, this is my third week back at the office and I just feel pretty done. Especially since I've already had COVID, as had the son I was desperately trying to protect. I'll keep getting boosters with my flu shot and wearing masks as long as asked, but I really feel the psychology of being told to go back to the office has worn on my a bit already, and I can imagine how that's the case for people who never had the ability to WFH. There's something that just really had me taking it more seriously when the company was saying "this is so important to us, we want you to work from home". I'm still following the guidance to the best of my ability, but working in an environment where that no longer plays is definitely having an effect on my willpower.
Willpower for what? Staying up with the protocols? I know having been in the office last week for a couple days, and watching how most do (or don't) stick with the plan, I can tell you that in the group environment, it's difficult to stay disciplined. And a week before that, we were in a group meeting and the entire group - 8-ish people - agreed that we were distanced enough and all vaccinated, and so we didn't require each other to wear masks. Someone else came in about halfway through the day and after about 45 minutes made an issue of the lack of masks. It's hard to know what IS right versus what just "seems" right.
First paragraph: I've got no idea what you are saying there man.
Second paragraph: Willpower to do more than check the box. And if protocols do break down I'm unlikely to care much.
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Oh dear lord. The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk. For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled. *awaits to be told Google is part of it*
Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."
The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.
I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.
lol
This thread has become a total shit show.
My daughter said something very moving today. I told her the mask requirement for school would be ending soon and I asked how she felt about it. She was unsure about the timing of it, and thought some kids would rather keep their masks on, because they might be shy or just more comfortable hiding their faces. I was a shy kid (and became a shy adult). If this happened when I was in school I could have been someone who would prefer wear a mask even once the requirement was lifted (it would have hid the acne too!). But to think a kid would feel more comfortable hiding their face just made me feel sad, to think someone would rather face the world and all it had to offer behind a mask. How would that child grow and develop, foster friends, create intimate relationships?
I'm sure that's a hard realization to hear from your kid, but there have literally always been kids going through school who felt like this.
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There is no way to over-state the mental health toll the pandemic has taken on people. We have only just begun to grasp the enormity of it all. As we move back into "normal" life (what is that again?) the cracks will continue and develop into fissures right before our eyes. And probably in many of our own homes.
I think very few people will emerge completely unscathed. We are all certainly forever changed.
I don’t think the divisiveness of society will go away in any of our lifetimes. That is hear to stay. Sadly.
That statement - which I don't realistically disagree with - bums me out, though. We HAVE tackled issues of that magnitude and moved the needle. It's really a matter of will at this point. I tend to think we LIKE the divisiveness, as much as we lament it. I don't really have that gene, necessarily, but I get the impression that some people get personal satisfaction, get self-worth, out of "conquering" those that disagree with their world view. It's clearly affirming to some people.
And the funny thing is, the implications of that are staggering. If you - random John Q. Public member - get energy, get power, get affirmation, out of pwning someone who is of the opposite party as you, something that is likely a combination of nature and nuture, something that is likely at least to some degree out of the individuals purely conscious control, why is it so hard to fathom that some other member of society, let's say Joseph Q. Public, gets that same jolt from pwning someone of the opposite gender, or sexual preference, or race? If we can advocate for equality on the identity politics front, why can't we either advocate for equality of the POLITICS front, or better yet, recognize that for some, their POLITICAL identity is just that?
For someone like me, sure, the mechanics are objective; whether we hold taxes, or raise taxes a little, or raise taxes a lot, that's a tactical thing that I can control and isn't tied to my being. But I certainly didn't choose to be a libertarian in world view. I didn't choose to have the experiences I did or be born into the family I did, which all reinforced my beliefs regarding personal autonomy, any more than I chose to be attracted to females that have pretty smiles and long hair? So why is it any more proper to ridicule me or send me to the "out-group" for either?
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The % of those not vaccinated is higher with the 50 years old and younger group.
When a lot of news media has been (incorrectly) communicating the message that COVID does not affect young people since the start of the pandemic, then this might be expected.
Where I live, its been the opposite. News, commercials pushing for those to get the vaccine.
Can only speak to the US experience, but yes our media has hyped up how COVID can affect young people even though, looking at the data, it really doesn't. I looked up the total COVID deaths for people under 40 in the US and it's less than the amount of car accident deaths we have every year. We all get into cars without a second thought, yet we are petrified of what happens to young people if they get COVID. I know that if it is you or your kid that being on the wrong side of the statistics feels very personal to you. But if we started making all our decisions that way as a society we would become paralyzed.
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Absolutely appreciate this response, and it confirms what I've suspected all along. We see this from a similar angle (more than you and others might expect), but it just comes down to me thinking it's safer to roll with the tide, and you thinking it's safer to roll against it. I can understand both points of view, but a libertarian I am not. In fact, I'd trust our healthcare system a lot more if we were in France or Taiwan. So I'm sure we could have a lot of good conversations on a number of topics down the line :biggrin:
lol the US healthcare system. Neither a free market nor fully regulated. All the drawbacks of both and the benefits of neither. I was scheduling a service recently and they told me what they expected the price to be. I was actually shocked.
If I am around the forums more I look forward to your posts popping up as well.
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Oh dear lord. The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk. For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled. *awaits to be told Google is part of it*
Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."
The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.
I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.
lol
This thread has become a total shit show.
Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.
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Oh dear lord. The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk. For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled. *awaits to be told Google is part of it*
Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."
The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.
I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.
lol
This thread has become a total shit show.
Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.
Another (two) statements that bum me out. I see a number of people that don't agree, but I don't see "shit show". It's mostly respectful. Honest question: what's the desired outcome here?
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Honestly thought most of the recent debate was fair even if I don't personally agree and think some things said are a bit bogus, I don't think anyone came across as an asshole or anything like that. Didn't seem like a shit show to me either, just respectful disagreements for the most part.
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Oh dear lord. The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk. For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled. *awaits to be told Google is part of it*
Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."
The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.
I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.
lol
This thread has become a total shit show.
Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.
Another (two) statements that bum me out. I see a number of people that don't agree, but I don't see "shit show". It's mostly respectful. Honest question: what's the desired outcome here?
Not sure if a desired outcome is possible...we've been bashing our heads against the same fucking spot on the wall for over a hundred pages, without a single move in ideology from anyone's perspective. I recall a saying about doing the same thing over and over expecting different results... maybe you get a boner from the art of argument itself, you are a lawyer after all, I just get frustrated.
-
I looked up the total COVID deaths for people under 40 in the US and it's less than the amount of car accident deaths we have every year. We all get into cars without a second thought, yet we are petrified of what happens to young people if they get COVID.
I guess that is the kind of confidence 200 Billion a year road infrastructure spending and federal mandates to wear a safety mask belt affords the populace. :P
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I looked up the total COVID deaths for people under 40 in the US and it's less than the amount of car accident deaths we have every year. We all get into cars without a second thought, yet we are petrified of what happens to young people if they get COVID.
I guess that is the kind of confidence 200 Billion a year road infrastructure spending and federal mandates to wear a safety mask belt affords the populace. :P
I don't think the way people work is quite so nuts and bolts.
Flying is far, far safer than driving but I have yet to talk to a person that doesn't get at least a little nervous about it. The airlines don't help themselves by making planes a claustrophobic environment, but, fundamentally, driving is familiar and feels like it's in your control. Flying is unfamiliar and you have no impact on the outcome.
With disease, generally, as a population we understood that basic sanitation and not being around people when you're sick are the best you can do and otherwise disease is a part of life. By hyping up asymptomatic transmission and making COVID seem like more of a general threat to the population than it actually was, that implicit understanding was broken. An actual accounting of how many lives were saved by this, if any, I would guess is years away. I've seen no encouraging data. The breaking of people psychological and the financial ruin are already immediately obvious.
-
Personally I blame the people driving around in unvaccinated cars.
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Personally I blame the people driving around in unvaccinated cars.
My airbag protects you. Your airbag protects me.
-
The breaking of people psychological and the financial ruin are already immediately obvious.
I've seen no double blind studies that demonstrate that.
Touche.
But when it comes to the effects of masks, other NPIs, and COVID shots, the positive effects of those policies require in depth studies in order to sort out the multiple confounding factors involved.
Whereas, you look at the social upheaval we've seen in the past couple years and the transfer of wealth to the rich, both are obviously linked to one thing. I suppose you could argue that a world economy and society with fewer underlying issues could have handled COVID better. But to argue that COVID wasn't necessarily the match that lit the tinder... I'd certainly love to read it.
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Personally I blame the people driving around in unvaccinated cars.
My airbag protects you. Your airbag protects me.
Airbags not so much, but ABS, CAS, ESC and TCS all do.
-
I actually blame ourselves and our selfishness. Not with just disease prevention, but also the selfish things we humans do to the ecosystem of the Earth. We are selfish beings that take and take with a regard for our own species and treat the other living organisms on this Earth as lesser beings. It's even gotten to where humans treat each other as lesser beings based on what is termed "intelligence" and it has been used nefariously many times against people.
If you want people to learn and understand things, teach them without expecting any sort of pay back in return for the knowledge. Not expecting any payback is doing things out of the kindness of one's own heart. Doing "good" actions and expecting something in return is not doing things out of the kindness of your heart.
Even jobs and services could be done out of the kindness of one's heart, but people expect things in return for their work and time. Which is why people expect money they can spend on the various products to please ourselves. Will people do their services for food, shelter, clothes, and hospitality? Some will and some won't. If you care enough to perform "good intention" actions, should you not expect anything in return?
The breaking of people psychological and the financial ruin are already immediately obvious.
I've seen no double blind studies that demonstrate that.
Do you need a study to notice this? I don't think you do. You can see it when interacting with people and how far people will go to avoid any discussion of pandemic related doings. People know that it can cause rifts and will just avoid talking about it and go about their day agreeing to disagree, while enjoying their time out of the house.
There was so much tension already boiling in the pot and this pandemic was like adding more water to the pot that's boiling over.
-
The breaking of people psychological and the financial ruin are already immediately obvious.
I've seen no double blind studies that demonstrate that.
Touche.
But when it comes to the effects of masks, other NPIs, and COVID shots, the positive effects of those policies require in depth studies in order to sort out the multiple confounding factors involved.
Whereas, you look at the social upheaval we've seen in the past couple years and the transfer of wealth to the rich, both are obviously linked to one thing. I suppose you could argue that a world economy and society with fewer underlying issues could have handled COVID better. But to argue that COVID wasn't necessarily the match that lit the tinder... I'd certainly love to read it.
I deleted the post because I realised I was just being tired and irritable. I've been working 14 hour days for 10 days straight. Sorry.
-
The breaking of people psychological and the financial ruin are already immediately obvious.
I've seen no double blind studies that demonstrate that.
Touche.
But when it comes to the effects of masks, other NPIs, and COVID shots, the positive effects of those policies require in depth studies in order to sort out the multiple confounding factors involved.
Whereas, you look at the social upheaval we've seen in the past couple years and the transfer of wealth to the rich, both are obviously linked to one thing. I suppose you could argue that a world economy and society with fewer underlying issues could have handled COVID better. But to argue that COVID wasn't necessarily the match that lit the tinder... I'd certainly love to read it.
I deleted the post because I realised I was just being tired and irritable. I've been working 14 hour days for 10 days straight. Sorry.
Appreciated but I mostly thought it was funny.
EDIT: And cut your hours back!
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Maybe so, but its not conductive to good debate, and you deserve better than that.
The hours were exceptional: we were doing an experiment at facility we can only use 2 weeks per year, so it was pretty full on. I have a 4 day weekend coming up to compensate. :D
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Maybe so, but its not conductive to good debate, and you deserve better than that.
Aw shucks
The hours were exceptional: we were doing an experiment at facility we can only use 2 weeks per year, so it was pretty full on. I have a 4 day weekend coming up to compensate. :D
At least it's for something productive and actually timely. Enjoy the coming long weekend.
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Oh dear lord. The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk. For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled. *awaits to be told Google is part of it*
Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."
The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.
I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.
lol
This thread has become a total shit show.
Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.
Another (two) statements that bum me out. I see a number of people that don't agree, but I don't see "shit show". It's mostly respectful. Honest question: what's the desired outcome here?
Not sure if a desired outcome is possible...we've been bashing our heads against the same fucking spot on the wall for over a hundred pages, without a single move in ideology from anyone's perspective. I recall a saying about doing the same thing over and over expecting different results... maybe you get a boner from the art of argument itself, you are a lawyer after all, I just get frustrated.
Well, no boners here, I can tell you. But I long ago realized that AGREEMENT as a goal is futile. I ask only for understanding. And "understanding" is an easy standard because it's on me, and it's freely given. I can't FORCE myself to agree with people whose life philosophies are not my own, but I CAN force myself to UNDERSTAND them, so when they disagree with my choice of laws, for example, I can see where they are coming from. Dave and I are probably as polar opposites as two men can be on most of these things, but it's almost always civil, because I (like to think I) UNDERSTAND where he's coming from. I'll vote against him every time, but I understand him.
For me, anyway, and I don't mean this personally but rather in my experience, it's harder to HATE when you have understanding. There's a humanity that comes with that, a humanity that is sorely lacking in most of the political discourse in our country today. Not a day goes by - literally - that I don't see a Tweet and I think "you kiss your mother with that mouth?" Not swears, but just the vitriol, the hate, the animosity. I can't imagine going through life with those negative feelings simply because our core gut instincts, or our processing of risk, or whatever it is that is at the core of our politics, are based on different premises.
The funny thing for me, is, not really ascribing to either party (and therefore not being welcome by either one) I see how similar they really are. A lot of both sides is rooted in fear, in insecurity, and in a need for acceptance. Once you get to that level, it ought to be easier than it seems to be.
-
I became a first-time parent months after the initial lockdowns. And holy shit. In some ways, I feel like I lucked out (got to wfh, not much going on out in the world to miss out on, etc) while in other ways, the one-two punch of becoming a parent and COVID lockdowns basically ended my social life and spiraled me into some kind of Stanley Kubrik scenario where I felt totally trapped by domestic pressure and dead to the world. New parents probably struggle to hang on to themselves as it is, but in this case, the lockdowns leveled any part of my social identity not already completely pounded into the dirt by becoming a parent.
Luckily, 9 months in, I started getting mental help from a therapist. And many walls/monitors/guitars/etc in my home have their continued intactness to thank that for. Things have gotten a lot better, almost in direct relationship to me being able to say "enough is enough", take personal risks, trust my child to external care during the workday and some nights, etc... all stuff that would have normally gotten smoothened over much sooner, but thanks to COVID, took longer for us.
I've heard the same thing echoed from my therapist, and other parents. People have dealt with depression or dealt with kids who have become severely depressed (can't imagine being a high schooler virtually, I mean come on). I'm of the opinion that lockdowns and restrictions have done far more harm than good, and anyone who thinks I'm being dishonest on insincere about that opinion can go back to the early pages of this thread and read me taking the exact opposite stance in the early days.
That said, like others, still fully support masking (where it makes sense and isn't just a virtue signal) and vaccination (all adults should be doing it so we can stop this nonsense around subjecting it to the youngest of kids).
-
Oh dear lord. The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk. For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled. *awaits to be told Google is part of it*
Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."
The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.
I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.
lol
This thread has become a total shit show.
Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.
Another (two) statements that bum me out. I see a number of people that don't agree, but I don't see "shit show". It's mostly respectful. Honest question: what's the desired outcome here?
Not sure if a desired outcome is possible...we've been bashing our heads against the same fucking spot on the wall for over a hundred pages, without a single move in ideology from anyone's perspective. I recall a saying about doing the same thing over and over expecting different results... maybe you get a boner from the art of argument itself, you are a lawyer after all, I just get frustrated.
Well, no boners here, I can tell you. But I long ago realized that AGREEMENT as a goal is futile. I ask only for understanding. And "understanding" is an easy standard because it's on me, and it's freely given. I can't FORCE myself to agree with people whose life philosophies are not my own, but I CAN force myself to UNDERSTAND them, so when they disagree with my choice of laws, for example, I can see where they are coming from. Dave and I are probably as polar opposites as two men can be on most of these things, but it's almost always civil, because I (like to think I) UNDERSTAND where he's coming from. I'll vote against him every time, but I understand him.
For me, anyway, and I don't mean this personally but rather in my experience, it's harder to HATE when you have understanding. There's a humanity that comes with that, a humanity that is sorely lacking in most of the political discourse in our country today. Not a day goes by - literally - that I don't see a Tweet and I think "you kiss your mother with that mouth?" Not swears, but just the vitriol, the hate, the animosity. I can't imagine going through life with those negative feelings simply because our core gut instincts, or our processing of risk, or whatever it is that is at the core of our politics, are based on different premises.
The funny thing for me, is, not really ascribing to either party (and therefore not being welcome by either one) I see how similar they really are. A lot of both sides is rooted in fear, in insecurity, and in a need for acceptance. Once you get to that level, it ought to be easier than it seems to be.
You can't honestly tell me that you don't get at least a little bit of a chubby from a good argument..
-
I looked up the total COVID deaths for people under 40 in the US and it's less than the amount of car accident deaths we have every year. We all get into cars without a second thought, yet we are petrified of what happens to young people if they get COVID.
I guess that is the kind of confidence 200 Billion a year road infrastructure spending and federal mandates to wear a safety mask belt affords the populace. :P
I don't think the way people work is quite so nuts and bolts.
Flying is far, far safer than driving but I have yet to talk to a person that doesn't get at least a little nervous about it. The airlines don't help themselves by making planes a claustrophobic environment, but, fundamentally, driving is familiar and feels like it's in your control. Flying is unfamiliar and you have no impact on the outcome.
With disease, generally, as a population we understood that basic sanitation and not being around people when you're sick are the best you can do and otherwise disease is a part of life. By hyping up asymptomatic transmission and making COVID seem like more of a general threat to the population than it actually was, that implicit understanding was broken. An actual accounting of how many lives were saved by this, if any, I would guess is years away. I've seen no encouraging data. The breaking of people psychological and the financial ruin are already immediately obvious.
Well, all of you owe it to yourselves to read Dave Ropeik's book "How Risky Is It Anyway?" We as humans are HORRIBLE at comparatively assessing risk. HORRIBLE. The book starts off with the anecdote of the woman - overweight, by the way (it's relevant) - who was fighting tooth and nail to have her kid's school shut down because TRACE levels of a contaminant were found in a random air sample taken in the library. WELL below any prescribed limits for remediation, but she was ADAMANT. And the author recounts her going outside for a break in the hearings to chain smoke two cigarettes on break, along with her weight a risk he put at, if I remember correctly, something like 10,000 times the chance to get cancer than the contaminant in the school. She was oblivious.
I've given up trying to ascribe any relative reason to discussions like these. Who knows, and frankly, who CARES why someone rates something of "more risk" to them than not, even if it's not accurate? I'm scared of heights and spiders. So? I'm probably not going to die of either one, but I'm still scared. So? There's not a subject in the P/R thread where someone isn't either ignoring or glossing over numbers of SOME kind.
-
I became a first-time parent months after the initial lockdowns. And holy shit. In some ways, I feel like I lucked out (got to wfh, not much going on out in the world to miss out on, etc) while in other ways, the one-two punch of becoming a parent and COVID lockdowns basically ended my social life and spiraled me into some kind of Stanley Kubrik scenario where I felt totally trapped by domestic pressure and dead to the world. New parents probably struggle to hang on to themselves as it is, but in this case, the lockdowns leveled any part of my social identity not already completely pounded into the dirt by becoming a parent.
Luckily, 9 months in, I started getting mental help from a therapist. And many walls/monitors/guitars/etc in my home have their continued intactness to thank that for. Things have gotten a lot better, almost in direct relationship to me being able to say "enough is enough", take personal risks, trust my child to external care during the workday and some nights, etc... all stuff that would have normally gotten smoothened over much sooner, but thanks to COVID, took longer for us.
I've heard the same thing echoed from my therapist, and other parents. People have dealt with depression or dealt with kids who have become severely depressed (can't imagine being a high schooler virtually, I mean come on). I'm of the opinion that lockdowns and restrictions have done far more harm than good, and anyone who thinks I'm being dishonest on insincere about that opinion can go back to the early pages of this thread and read me taking the exact opposite stance in the early days.
That said, like others, still fully support masking (where it makes sense and isn't just a virtue signal) and vaccination (all adults should be doing it so we can stop this nonsense around subjecting it to the youngest of kids).
2020 was very hard for us - the kids were 4 and 2 at the time and my youngest wouldn't keep a mask on. He almost NEVER left the house for an entire year, aside from car rides and visits to grandparents'. The original strain of covid was really strong and scary, so we all followed "orders" and stayed closer to home. Vacations were cancelled and we didn't take the kids to very many places that summer. I felt like my world closed in around me with my job, family, and home all needing my attention at the same time, and while I didn't seek professional help (and probably should have), I can definitely look back at the strain on my family and completely acknowledge that I did not handle it well at all.
We've moved on though - 2021 was much better for us, and 2022 should be as close to pre-pandemic life for us as we can. My daughter's school voted to be mask optional starting tomorrow, so she finally gets to experience school without a mask, and we've started ditching them in public a little ahead of the relaxation of the mandate at the end of the month
-
I actually blame ourselves and our selfishness. Not with just disease prevention, but also the selfish things we humans do to the ecosystem of the Earth. We are selfish beings that take and take with a regard for our own species and treat the other living organisms on this Earth as lesser beings. It's even gotten to where humans treat each other as lesser beings based on what is termed "intelligence" and it has been used nefariously many times against people.
If you want people to learn and understand things, teach them without expecting any sort of pay back in return for the knowledge. Not expecting any payback is doing things out of the kindness of one's own heart. Doing "good" actions and expecting something in return is not doing things out of the kindness of your heart.
Even jobs and services could be done out of the kindness of one's heart, but people expect things in return for their work and time. Which is why people expect money they can spend on the various products to please ourselves. Will people do their services for food, shelter, clothes, and hospitality? Some will and some won't. If you care enough to perform "good intention" actions, should you not expect anything in return?
I think all of this is human nature though and can't be changed. You can control the worst of it (not dumping toxic waste into the river), but people are what they are. It would be nice if you didn't need money to motivate people, but if it's not money then the only reason anyone does anything is the threat of violence if they don't. Trying to perfect human nature always leads to some sort of tragedy. And, at least personally, I've never seen anyone's vision of utopia that I like. You have to allow for a certain amount of degeneracy in order for life to have any excitement.
-
Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.
This pretty much describes me as well. It's why I will never ask for access to the PR forum. I can literally script what many people here will say because no one changes, they just recycle the same talking points ad nauseum.
Sometimes I will try and then realize what a waste of time it is so I then resort to trying to play comic relief by posting something humorous around the discussion at hand, like the Urine Treatment or that idiot from Kentucky saying that Medicare gives you Covid.
-
Oh dear lord. The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk. For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled. *awaits to be told Google is part of it*
Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."
The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.
I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.
lol
This thread has become a total shit show.
Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.
Another (two) statements that bum me out. I see a number of people that don't agree, but I don't see "shit show". It's mostly respectful. Honest question: what's the desired outcome here?
Not sure if a desired outcome is possible...we've been bashing our heads against the same fucking spot on the wall for over a hundred pages, without a single move in ideology from anyone's perspective. I recall a saying about doing the same thing over and over expecting different results... maybe you get a boner from the art of argument itself, you are a lawyer after all, I just get frustrated.
Well, no boners here, I can tell you. But I long ago realized that AGREEMENT as a goal is futile. I ask only for understanding. And "understanding" is an easy standard because it's on me, and it's freely given. I can't FORCE myself to agree with people whose life philosophies are not my own, but I CAN force myself to UNDERSTAND them, so when they disagree with my choice of laws, for example, I can see where they are coming from. Dave and I are probably as polar opposites as two men can be on most of these things, but it's almost always civil, because I (like to think I) UNDERSTAND where he's coming from. I'll vote against him every time, but I understand him.
For me, anyway, and I don't mean this personally but rather in my experience, it's harder to HATE when you have understanding. There's a humanity that comes with that, a humanity that is sorely lacking in most of the political discourse in our country today. Not a day goes by - literally - that I don't see a Tweet and I think "you kiss your mother with that mouth?" Not swears, but just the vitriol, the hate, the animosity. I can't imagine going through life with those negative feelings simply because our core gut instincts, or our processing of risk, or whatever it is that is at the core of our politics, are based on different premises.
The funny thing for me, is, not really ascribing to either party (and therefore not being welcome by either one) I see how similar they really are. A lot of both sides is rooted in fear, in insecurity, and in a need for acceptance. Once you get to that level, it ought to be easier than it seems to be.
You can't honestly tell me that you don't get at least a little bit of a chubby from a good argument..
Okay. Maybe. :)
-
I became a first-time parent months after the initial lockdowns. And holy shit. In some ways, I feel like I lucked out (got to wfh, not much going on out in the world to miss out on, etc) while in other ways, the one-two punch of becoming a parent and COVID lockdowns basically ended my social life and spiraled me into some kind of Stanley Kubrik scenario where I felt totally trapped by domestic pressure and dead to the world. New parents probably struggle to hang on to themselves as it is, but in this case, the lockdowns leveled any part of my social identity not already completely pounded into the dirt by becoming a parent.
Luckily, 9 months in, I started getting mental help from a therapist. And many walls/monitors/guitars/etc in my home have their continued intactness to thank that for. Things have gotten a lot better, almost in direct relationship to me being able to say "enough is enough", take personal risks, trust my child to external care during the workday and some nights, etc... all stuff that would have normally gotten smoothened over much sooner, but thanks to COVID, took longer for us.
I've heard the same thing echoed from my therapist, and other parents. People have dealt with depression or dealt with kids who have become severely depressed (can't imagine being a high schooler virtually, I mean come on). I'm of the opinion that lockdowns and restrictions have done far more harm than good, and anyone who thinks I'm being dishonest on insincere about that opinion can go back to the early pages of this thread and read me taking the exact opposite stance in the early days.
That said, like others, still fully support masking (where it makes sense and isn't just a virtue signal) and vaccination (all adults should be doing it so we can stop this nonsense around subjecting it to the youngest of kids).
I'm just reading this... not that you need any affirmation from me, but very proud of you. I'm a strong proponent of therapy (real therapy) and I know for me, I've been relying on my therapist a lot more over the last 18 months or so, and I'm better for it, by a long shot.
Respect, and I hope the process continues to be a positive one for you.
-
Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.
This pretty much describes me as well. It's why I will never ask for access to the PR forum. I can literally script what many people here will say because no one changes, they just recycle the same talking points ad nauseum.
Sometimes I will try and then realize what a waste of time it is so I then resort to trying to play comic relief by posting something humorous around the discussion at hand, like the Urine Treatment or that idiot from Kentucky saying that Medicare gives you Covid.
Well, as a general proposition, and someone for whom more voices are better than fewer, I would hope at some point you'd reconsider. You (and Lonestar) have a lot to offer, and for someone like me who is as interested in learning as anything else, I get a lot out of the opposing points of view. Again, if "getting people to agree with you" is the goal, you're probably good where you are, because you'll be disappointed. But even just to soften some of the divisiveness would be a help to everyone.
-
I actually blame ourselves and our selfishness. Not with just disease prevention, but also the selfish things we humans do to the ecosystem of the Earth. We are selfish beings that take and take with a regard for our own species and treat the other living organisms on this Earth as lesser beings. It's even gotten to where humans treat each other as lesser beings based on what is termed "intelligence" and it has been used nefariously many times against people.
If you want people to learn and understand things, teach them without expecting any sort of pay back in return for the knowledge. Not expecting any payback is doing things out of the kindness of one's own heart. Doing "good" actions and expecting something in return is not doing things out of the kindness of your heart.
Even jobs and services could be done out of the kindness of one's heart, but people expect things in return for their work and time. Which is why people expect money they can spend on the various products to please ourselves. Will people do their services for food, shelter, clothes, and hospitality? Some will and some won't. If you care enough to perform "good intention" actions, should you not expect anything in return?
I think all of this is human nature though and can't be changed. You can control the worst of it (not dumping toxic waste into the river), but people are what they are. It would be nice if you didn't need money to motivate people, but if it's not money then the only reason anyone does anything is the threat of violence if they don't. Trying to perfect human nature always leads to some sort of tragedy. And, at least personally, I've never seen anyone's vision of utopia that I like. You have to allow for a certain amount of degeneracy in order for life to have any excitement.
I understand all of that. But all that, is the outcome of a people expanding their dominance over the world and establishing their perceptions of that utopia upon others whom did not agree. Because of this, what we are living today is the outcome of all of that. There was knowledge lost and forgotten, things destroyed, and many other forms of life lost due to those established perceptions asserting dominance of the land.
The truth is that the people that did it, are but one of the many various humans that roamed the Earth. Everyone only knows one perspective, while the many others are ignored or have been forgotten.
Think about what would have been here still if not for the selfish behaviors of humans.
What is surprising is the lack of culture among Americans and others, and it's fascinating to see how much culture influences the perceptions of life, attitudes, behaviors, and mindsets of humans.
Look at the cultures that did not have "money" but still found a way to gather payment for their work. Some of what is known as "work" was just essential every day obligations and responsibilities of a person. Think about this, the arts and crafts of Native American people is the culture, and it's fascinating how these turned from every day use items into items to be displayed and not utilized for it's purpose within the culture. Cultural appropriation is interesting in how dominance of another culture can assimilate people. Psychological manipulation is utilized when assimilating people into the dominant culture.
Why would I pay someone for something I could easily do myself? Laziness? Selfishness?
Utopias are pretty much people trying to perfect the human species. Humans will never be perfect and humans are not Gods, even though humans try to achieve that power.
Humans need to understand that everyone is human and will and does things that all humans are capable of accomplishing. One person's accomplishments has long lasting effects because it shows that a human being is capable of achieving such a task.
That is the premise of Dream Theaters new album. Take a chance though you may die, seeing a view from the top of the world.
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...But I long ago realized that AGREEMENT as a goal is futile. I ask only for understanding. And "understanding" is an easy standard because it's on me, and it's freely given. I can't FORCE myself to agree with people whose life philosophies are not my own, but I CAN force myself to UNDERSTAND them, so when they disagree with my choice of laws, for example, I can see where they are coming from. Dave and I are probably as polar opposites as two men can be on most of these things, but it's almost always civil, because I (like to think I) UNDERSTAND where he's coming from. I'll vote against him every time, but I understand him.
For me, anyway, and I don't mean this personally but rather in my experience, it's harder to HATE when you have understanding. There's a humanity that comes with that, a humanity that is sorely lacking in most of the political discourse in our country today.
Sadly, this is what is more often than not sadly lacking in discourse. Rather than seeking understanding, the spoken or unspoken position of many is simply, "I'm obviously right, and if I can't persuade you to agree with me, I don't have time for you."
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...But I long ago realized that AGREEMENT as a goal is futile. I ask only for understanding. And "understanding" is an easy standard because it's on me, and it's freely given. I can't FORCE myself to agree with people whose life philosophies are not my own, but I CAN force myself to UNDERSTAND them, so when they disagree with my choice of laws, for example, I can see where they are coming from. Dave and I are probably as polar opposites as two men can be on most of these things, but it's almost always civil, because I (like to think I) UNDERSTAND where he's coming from. I'll vote against him every time, but I understand him.
For me, anyway, and I don't mean this personally but rather in my experience, it's harder to HATE when you have understanding. There's a humanity that comes with that, a humanity that is sorely lacking in most of the political discourse in our country today.
Sadly, this is what is more often than not sadly lacking in discourse. Rather than seeking understanding, the spoken or unspoken position of many is simply, "I'm obviously right, and if I can't persuade you to agree with me, I don't have time for you."
Would that be considered patience? Being patient with someone who doesn't understand.
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My mom got covid. She's got bad body aches as her main symptom. My father tested negative but he almost seems more sick with cold symtoms. Luckily, it seems from the early stages, they should recover and be fine. Glad they are vaxxed or things could be much worse considering age and health.
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My mom got covid. She's got bad body aches as her main symptom. My father tested negative but he almost seems more sick with cold symtoms. Luckily, it seems from the early stages, they should recover and be fine. Glad they are vaxxed or things could be much worse considering age and health.
With you, Marc. Good luck and I hope they get better soon. I know for my parents (84 and 82) they definitely had symptoms, but nothing incapacitating, thank god.
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My mom got covid. She's got bad body aches as her main symptom. My father tested negative but he almost seems more sick with cold symtoms. Luckily, it seems from the early stages, they should recover and be fine. Glad they are vaxxed or things could be much worse considering age and health.
I hope they get better soon! What's crazy is I got Covid a few weeks back, tested positive and my wife never did despite her getting sick. My brother and his gf had the same thing, both were sick, she was positive and he was negativ .
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Thanks fellas, and yeah, this isn't the first time I've heard or experienced someone sick and their companion also sick but not positive. Such as my gf, or my sister and her husband. It's just weird like that.
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That blows. Hopefully they get past it well enough.
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https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/19931641.covid-data-will-not-published-concerns-misrepresented-anti-vaxxers/?ref=twtrec
Public Health Scotland will stop publishing data on covid deaths and hospitalisations by vaccination status - over concerns it is misrepresented by anti-vaxx campaigners.
The public health watchdog announced the change in policy in its most recent covid statistical report, saying the frequency and content of the data would be reviewed.
Instead, officials will focus on publishing more robust and complex vaccine effectiveness data.
PHS officials said significant concerns about the data being misused deliberately by anti-vaccination campaigners is behind the move.
The report published on Wednesday will be the last weekly publication to include the data on infection rates among the vaccinated and unvaccinated.
It must be cool to be able to be able to publish "robust and complex vaccine effectiveness data" and not provide the raw numbers to the public for them to be able to audit your work.
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Well, my son is running a 100 degree fever and is very achy. Considering school is the only place he goes, literally, if he has Covid it came from there. Still getting daily emails about kids testing positive every day. May have finally caught up with him. Wife is taking him to be tested now.
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Well, my son is running a 100 degree fever and is very achy. Considering school is the only place he goes, literally, if he has Covid it came from there. Still getting daily emails about kids testing positive every day. May have finally caught up with him. Wife is taking him to be tested now.
That sucks - I'm pretty sure my daughter caught it from school too. She got it the week after they returned from Christmas break in January, when Omicron was spreading like crazy. The school would usually have 3-5 kids out with covid each week. That week they had 24 students out, and then 29 more the week she came down with it. Not much anyone can do but deal with the illness. I hope he feels better!
I thought this was hilarious - our school board met Monday night to vote on making masks optional. A lot of parents got together to speak in favor of the plan, with only one showing up wishing to retain masks, as his kid is immunocompromised and deserves to go to school without having to risk infection. So one mom posted this in their private Facebook group:
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274048733_10228392847791002_4719309178879271205_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=iSXZWsPpxBcAX-7HyO9&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=00_AT_BGHrxGafoRdYftH1Ncewv5JIBR0N5Q4IpabkuU63nOA&oe=62134C61)
I've never seen a better definition of irony - a parent going to protest covid mitigations in school who can't go because she's positive for covid because their family doesn't follow covid mitigation strategies. :lol
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Well, my son is running a 100 degree fever and is very achy. Considering school is the only place he goes, literally, if he has Covid it came from there. Still getting daily emails about kids testing positive every day. May have finally caught up with him. Wife is taking him to be tested now.
Oh man. Hopefully it clears quickly for him.
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Well, my son is running a 100 degree fever and is very achy. Considering school is the only place he goes, literally, if he has Covid it came from there. Still getting daily emails about kids testing positive every day. May have finally caught up with him. Wife is taking him to be tested now.
That sucks - I'm pretty sure my daughter caught it from school too. She got it the week after they returned from Christmas break in January, when Omicron was spreading like crazy. The school would usually have 3-5 kids out with covid each week. That week they had 24 students out, and then 29 more the week she came down with it. Not much anyone can do but deal with the illness. I hope he feels better!
I thought this was hilarious - our school board met Monday night to vote on making masks optional. A lot of parents got together to speak in favor of the plan, with only one showing up wishing to retain masks, as his kid is immunocompromised and deserves to go to school without having to risk infection. So one mom posted this in their private Facebook group:
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274048733_10228392847791002_4719309178879271205_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=iSXZWsPpxBcAX-7HyO9&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=00_AT_BGHrxGafoRdYftH1Ncewv5JIBR0N5Q4IpabkuU63nOA&oe=62134C61)
I've never seen a better definition of irony - a parent going to protest covid mitigations in school who can't go because she's positive for covid because their family doesn't follow covid mitigation strategies. :lol
I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make. Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs. They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu. TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative. There's no real irony there for them. It's the way things are "supposed to go".
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Well, my son is running a 100 degree fever and is very achy. Considering school is the only place he goes, literally, if he has Covid it came from there. Still getting daily emails about kids testing positive every day. May have finally caught up with him. Wife is taking him to be tested now.
Very unfortunate wish you the best of luck.
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I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make. Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs. They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu. TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative. There's no real irony there for them. It's the way things are "supposed to go".
I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances. But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.
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I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make. Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs. They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu. TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative. There's no real irony there for them. It's the way things are "supposed to go".
I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances. But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.
Okay, Alanis. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make. Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs. They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu. TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative. There's no real irony there for them. It's the way things are "supposed to go".
I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances. But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.
I genuinely don't understand.
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I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make. Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs. They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu. TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative. There's no real irony there for them. It's the way things are "supposed to go".
I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances. But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.
I genuinely don't understand.
Ironic.
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I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make. Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs. They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu. TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative. There's no real irony there for them. It's the way things are "supposed to go".
I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances. But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.
I genuinely don't understand.
"Sorry I can't come to the meeting to protest the COVID protocols. I didn't obey the protocols and caught COVID, so I can't come."
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I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make. Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs. They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu. TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative. There's no real irony there for them. It's the way things are "supposed to go".
I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances. But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.
I genuinely don't understand.
"Sorry I can't come to the meeting to protest the COVID protocols. I didn't obey the protocols and caught COVID, so I can't come."
But to me it would only be ironic if disobeying the protocols necessarily lead to her catching COVID (and her knowing that was the case), which seems like an inference that can't really be made. Is it also ironic if someone who follows the COVID protocols gets COVID even though they followed the protocols?
It's why this whole idea of linking catching a highly contagious disease to peoples' behaviors makes no sense to me in the first place. It causes moralizing and trying to make value and retrospective judgements about something that can't actually be known.
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I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make. Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs. They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu. TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative. There's no real irony there for them. It's the way things are "supposed to go".
I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances. But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.
I genuinely don't understand.
"Sorry I can't come to the meeting to protest the COVID protocols. I didn't obey the protocols and caught COVID, so I can't come."
But to me it would only be ironic if disobeying the protocols necessarily lead to her catching COVID (and her knowing that was the case), which seems like an inference that can't really be made. Is it also ironic if someone who follows the COVID protocols gets COVID even though they followed the protocols?
It's why this whole idea of linking catching a highly contagious disease to peoples' behaviors makes no sense to me in the first place. It causes moralizing and trying to make value and retrospective judgements about something that can't actually be known.
It doesn't matter how the family caught covid. The fact that they wanted to protest covid mitigations yet were positive for covid and couldn't into the school board meeting because of their positive test is the irony.
Also, it is completely possible to make an educated guess that if they are fighting that hard against their children wearing a mask in school, they likely also do not wear masks when in public, despite a mandate within our state to do so. Not that any of that matters at all with regard to my finding the entire situation funny and ironic.
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I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make. Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs. They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu. TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative. There's no real irony there for them. It's the way things are "supposed to go".
I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances. But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.
I genuinely don't understand.
"Sorry I can't come to the meeting to protest the COVID protocols. I didn't obey the protocols and caught COVID, so I can't come."
But to me it would only be ironic if disobeying the protocols necessarily lead to her catching COVID (and her knowing that was the case), which seems like an inference that can't really be made. Is it also ironic if someone who follows the COVID protocols gets COVID even though they followed the protocols?
It's why this whole idea of linking catching a highly contagious disease to peoples' behaviors makes no sense to me in the first place. It causes moralizing and trying to make value and retrospective judgements about something that can't actually be known.
That's actually more ironic, if we're really digging in to the literal meaning of the word.
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It doesn't matter how the family caught covid. The fact that they wanted to protest covid mitigations yet were positive for covid and couldn't into the school board meeting because of their positive test is the irony.
Also, it is completely possible to make an educated guess that if they are fighting that hard against their children wearing a mask in school, they likely also do not wear masks when in public, despite a mandate within our state to do so. Not that any of that matters at all with regard to my finding the entire situation funny and ironic.
I mean I don't know I know I'm being hyper rational but it seems kinda crappy to find amusement in someone getting sick unless it's absurd (lol, who hasn't gotten COVID at this point?), or unless they brought it upon themselves or deserved it somehow.
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It doesn't matter how the family caught covid. The fact that they wanted to protest covid mitigations yet were positive for covid and couldn't into the school board meeting because of their positive test is the irony.
Also, it is completely possible to make an educated guess that if they are fighting that hard against their children wearing a mask in school, they likely also do not wear masks when in public, despite a mandate within our state to do so. Not that any of that matters at all with regard to my finding the entire situation funny and ironic.
I mean I don't know I know I'm being hyper rational but it seems kinda crappy to find amusement in someone getting sick unless it's absurd (lol, who hasn't gotten COVID at this point?), or unless they brought it upon themselves or deserved it somehow.
I'm not pointing fingers at Grappler or anyone here in particular, but there are a group of people in general for whom "not wearing a mask" MEANS they brought it on themselves, and that they DO deserve it.
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But to me it would only be ironic if disobeying the protocols necessarily lead to her catching COVID (and her knowing that was the case), which seems like an inference that can't really be made.
I would say that it's a pretty easy inference to make, especially if they are hell-bent against such protocols. Who is more likely to catch it?
Is it also ironic if someone who follows the COVID protocols gets COVID even though they followed the protocols?
Maybe. Depends on the conversation, I guess.
It's why this whole idea of linking catching a highly contagious disease to peoples' behaviors makes no sense to me in the first place. It causes moralizing and trying to make value and retrospective judgements about something that can't actually be known.
But a lot of it CAN be known. Your insistence otherwise doesn't make it so. It's not a random mystery.
The best way to safeguard against the disease is vaccination and booster, and wearing masks in certain situations is also beneficial. People that refuse all of that, and protest against the practices, are already moralizing.
EDIT: NO ONE deserves it. "Bringing it on themselves" and "deserving it" are two different things.
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Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on". We would, presumably, not suggest that first line responders and healthcare workers are "bringing it on" because they're knowingly and willingly subjecting themselves to increased exposure rates, right? I don't think so. I can very much avoid masks and distancing without increasing my infection odds if, for example, I work full time out of the house, have no kids and get my groceries delivered. Rare circumstances, sure, and that woman was clear she was going to be AT the meeting, but still. The judgement to further an agenda is not changing any minds.
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But to me it would only be ironic if disobeying the protocols necessarily lead to her catching COVID (and her knowing that was the case), which seems like an inference that can't really be made.
I would say that it's a pretty easy inference to make, especially if they are hell-bent against such protocols. Who is more likely to catch it?
Neither. I don't think cloth masks do anything. COVID particles are smaller than the fiber gaps in cloth masks. At best, they stop about 50% of them from escaping the mask every time you breath out. But if you spent even a minute in a room with someone you've both breathed out multiple times and hotboxed the room with your COVID particles. I think you're a Cigar guy right? It's like a cigar lounge. The moment you step into one it's a haze. COVID particles in the air do the same thing. I am aware of no randomized, controlled studies that show cloth masks do anything except for a slight improvement regarding transmission rates in older people. But this is the Bangladeshi study where COVID cases were self-reported.
It's why this whole idea of linking catching a highly contagious disease to peoples' behaviors makes no sense to me in the first place. It causes moralizing and trying to make value and retrospective judgements about something that can't actually be known.
But a lot of it CAN be known. Your insistence otherwise doesn't make it so. It's not a random mystery.
Let's assume for the sake of argument masks actually do something. In the real world, the outcomes are seemingly random. One of the first times I went in public around a crowd I got COVID. I know someone who's gone into work around hundreds of other people for almost two years, gets tested regularly, and has never gotten it. I just don't think the causation can be found/implied.
The best way to safeguard against the disease is vaccination and booster, and wearing masks in certain situations is also beneficial. People that refuse all of that, and protest against the practices, are already moralizing.
If they're not telling you that you can't wear a mask or get a COVID shot, how is it moralizing?
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Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on".
I wouldn't say that I "judge" people, and never think people deserve it, but at this point, 2 years into it, anyone who chooses not to take the recommended and reasonable precautions - while very much free to make those choices - will get not sympathy from me should those choices and actions lead to unfavorable consequences. It's not judgement as much as it is lack of sympathy - at least, from my perspective. Choices have consequences (both good and bad). Those that own the choice, also own the consequence.
Look, you (royal) go outside in February rain without an umbrella or a coat, then getting wet is something you brought on yourself. I'm not judging you for it, but I've got no sympathy for your situation. And please Bill... no need to find the situations (but what if it's because the smoke detector went off at 2am?) where it's quite reasonable. For once, just go along with the point. ;D I'm speaking generally.
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Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on".
I wouldn't say that I "judge" people, and never think people deserve it, but at this point, 2 years into it, anyone who chooses not to take the recommended and reasonable precautions - while very much free to make those choices - will get not sympathy from me should those choices and actions lead to unfavorable consequences. It's not judgement as much as it is lack of sympathy - at least, from my perspective. Choices have consequences (both good and bad). Those that own the choice, also own the consequence.
Interesting. Interesting.
Look I am not perfect I find amusement at things you "shouldn't" laugh at all the time. Maybe there's something specific to that situation. Maybe it's because I am far from an ideal person.
But going with 'when people suffer the consequences of their bad choices they get no sympathy' as a default/stated philosophy? It doesn't take much creativity to find situations where if you apply that reasoning you'll run into some serious issues.
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I'm not finding enjoyment in a family being sick.
I'm finding enjoyment in the fact that they couldn't leave the house to protest against something they are passionate about because they got sick with the same illness that the mitigations are (were) in place for.
I'm done discussing that point.
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Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on".
I wouldn't say that I "judge" people, and never think people deserve it, but at this point, 2 years into it, anyone who chooses not to take the recommended and reasonable precautions - while very much free to make those choices - will get not sympathy from me should those choices and actions lead to unfavorable consequences. It's not judgement as much as it is lack of sympathy - at least, from my perspective. Choices have consequences (both good and bad). Those that own the choice, also own the consequence.
Look, you (royal) go outside in February rain without an umbrella or a coat, then getting wet is something you brought on yourself. I'm not judging you for it, but I've got no sympathy for your situation. And please Bill... no need to find the situations (but what if it's because the smoke detector went off at 2am?) where it's quite reasonable. For once, just go along with the point. ;D I'm speaking generally.
Your feelings are not uncommon. I have grown weary of the unvaccinated (especially those not doing it for political reasons) and have grown to despise them. Shrugs.....
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Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on".
I wouldn't say that I "judge" people, and never think people deserve it, but at this point, 2 years into it, anyone who chooses not to take the recommended and reasonable precautions - while very much free to make those choices - will get not sympathy from me should those choices and actions lead to unfavorable consequences. It's not judgement as much as it is lack of sympathy - at least, from my perspective. Choices have consequences (both good and bad). Those that own the choice, also own the consequence.
Look, you (royal) go outside in February rain without an umbrella or a coat, then getting wet is something you brought on yourself. I'm not judging you for it, but I've got no sympathy for your situation. And please Bill... no need to find the situations (but what if it's because the smoke detector went off at 2am?) where it's quite reasonable. For once, just go along with the point. ;D I'm speaking generally.
Of course. And the general is the problem. It's not about "deserve" it's about schadenfreude for a position/opinion you collective disagree with. And women who get raped shouldn't wear skirts and tight shirts, and long hairs shouldn't bitch when they don't get jobs, and queens shouldn't complain when people don't accept them for "who they are", and if you don't want an abortion, don't have sex, and soldiers who get blown up in war, well, they volunteered, amirite? They all deserve it.
Freedom of choice for one person with the overwhelming consequences of all those others who disagree with them is no free choice at all.
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Your feelings are not uncommon. I have grown weary of the unvaccinated (especially those not doing it for political reasons) and have grown to despise them. Shrugs.....
Neat. Curious how doing it for political reasons makes it worse. They can't be sincere?
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Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on".
I wouldn't say that I "judge" people, and never think people deserve it, but at this point, 2 years into it, anyone who chooses not to take the recommended and reasonable precautions - while very much free to make those choices - will get not sympathy from me should those choices and actions lead to unfavorable consequences. It's not judgement as much as it is lack of sympathy - at least, from my perspective. Choices have consequences (both good and bad). Those that own the choice, also own the consequence.
Look, you (royal) go outside in February rain without an umbrella or a coat, then getting wet is something you brought on yourself. I'm not judging you for it, but I've got no sympathy for your situation. And please Bill... no need to find the situations (but what if it's because the smoke detector went off at 2am?) where it's quite reasonable. For once, just go along with the point. ;D I'm speaking generally.
Your feelings are not uncommon. I have grown weary of the unvaccinated (especially those not doing it for political reasons) and have grown to despise them. Shrugs.....
And I grow weary of those with gall and gumption to presume they know better than I do what should go in my body. Only rather than add to the hate in this world, I'm trying to remember that they have a real right to their opinion - just as much as I do - and me chilling them does a disservice to my libertarian beliefs. Rather than create more alienation and more divisiveness, I'm trying to break down the in-groups and out-groups.
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Your feelings are not uncommon. I have grown weary of the unvaccinated (especially those not doing it for political reasons) and have grown to despise them. Shrugs.....
Neat. Curious how doing it for political reasons makes it worse. They can't be sincere?
Yeah, the people doing it for political reasons are fucking stupid. But surely there's room for people that simply have a conflict or a legit fear of some sort.
I had a fear of flying for years, no matter how airline safety was touted. Safer than driving to work. But no way in hell would I get on a plane. I can easily see people like that with the vaccine. Once you hook that needle up, there's no going back.
Honestly, I'm fucking appalled that I have to show my vax card to see Dream Theater next week. (yes, I know it's not a DT issue)
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Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on".
I wouldn't say that I "judge" people, and never think people deserve it, but at this point, 2 years into it, anyone who chooses not to take the recommended and reasonable precautions - while very much free to make those choices - will get not sympathy from me should those choices and actions lead to unfavorable consequences. It's not judgement as much as it is lack of sympathy - at least, from my perspective. Choices have consequences (both good and bad). Those that own the choice, also own the consequence.
Look, you (royal) go outside in February rain without an umbrella or a coat, then getting wet is something you brought on yourself. I'm not judging you for it, but I've got no sympathy for your situation. And please Bill... no need to find the situations (but what if it's because the smoke detector went off at 2am?) where it's quite reasonable. For once, just go along with the point. ;D I'm speaking generally.
Your feelings are not uncommon. I have grown weary of the unvaccinated (especially those not doing it for political reasons) and have grown to despise them. Shrugs.....
And I grow weary of those with gall and gumption to presume they know better than I do what should go in my body. Only rather than add to the hate in this world, I'm trying to remember that they have a real right to their opinion - just as much as I do - and me chilling them does a disservice to my libertarian beliefs. Rather than create more alienation and more divisiveness, I'm trying to break down the in-groups and out-groups.
There's a story in the Bible about these people called Lepers...Which describes the mindset of those who consider others contaminated to be a part of their in group.
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Your feelings are not uncommon. I have grown weary of the unvaccinated (especially those not doing it for political reasons) and have grown to despise them. Shrugs.....
Neat. Curious how doing it for political reasons makes it worse. They can't be sincere?
Yeah, the people doing it for political reasons are fucking stupid.
I wouldn't say fucking stupid but I don't think it's a good idea. If you think there's some political issue with getting a shot but you think it would medically benefit yourself to get it, you can do what's best for you without believing anyone should be compelled to do it. I don't really find something like a hunger strike persuasive, but at least it's a good show. I'm not sure if getting a COVID shot does the same thing.
But to each their own.
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Your feelings are not uncommon. I have grown weary of the unvaccinated (especially those not doing it for political reasons) and have grown to despise them. Shrugs.....
Neat. Curious how doing it for political reasons makes it worse. They can't be sincere?
I'm not sure what sincerity has to do with anything but yeah - I believe they are being sincere - sincerely stupid.
The reasons why doing it for political reasons make it worse is that their thinking isn't consistent. If they are military, they will go take that hill because of orders but getting this particular vaccine - well now they have their personal freedoms. Just ignant!
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Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on".
I wouldn't say that I "judge" people, and never think people deserve it, but at this point, 2 years into it, anyone who chooses not to take the recommended and reasonable precautions - while very much free to make those choices - will get not sympathy from me should those choices and actions lead to unfavorable consequences. It's not judgement as much as it is lack of sympathy - at least, from my perspective. Choices have consequences (both good and bad). Those that own the choice, also own the consequence.
Look, you (royal) go outside in February rain without an umbrella or a coat, then getting wet is something you brought on yourself. I'm not judging you for it, but I've got no sympathy for your situation. And please Bill... no need to find the situations (but what if it's because the smoke detector went off at 2am?) where it's quite reasonable. For once, just go along with the point. ;D I'm speaking generally.
What about not being healthy enough by not eating a nutritious diet and now you have a variety of heath issues because you just have to have that donut burger deep fried in bacon grease?
I have a sympathy for them, but don't come crying to me when they made that choice and decision knowing full well what the potential detrimental, dreadful outcome may be.
If you don't want health issues caused by a bad diet, and raise your odds of catching Covid, maybe you should consider doing something about it rather than forcing others to take a quick fix, cause eating nutritiously is hard. That's putting it in a nice, blunt way. I could say more, but that would be considered inconsiderate, but it's the truth in weighing outcomes by one's own choices.
And if humans do not assess these risky outcomes well. Why expect humans to be that way all of sudden when a world-wide situation occurs.
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Your feelings are not uncommon. I have grown weary of the unvaccinated (especially those not doing it for political reasons) and have grown to despise them. Shrugs.....
Neat. Curious how doing it for political reasons makes it worse. They can't be sincere?
I'm not sure what sincerity has to do with anything but yeah - I believe they are being sincere - sincerely stupid.
The reasons why doing it for political reasons make it worse is that their thinking isn't consistent. If they are military, they will go take that hill because of orders but getting this particular vaccine - well now they have their personal freedoms. Just ignant!
That's tolerance. And people have high tolerance for what they will take for the purposes of defending their beliefs. Why do people join the military? It's not because they enjoy being yelled at and demanded to answer to the higher ranked authority.
When this tolerance reaches a certain point, people will disobey the authority and say "enough is enough" this is where I draw my line in the sand.
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Your feelings are not uncommon. I have grown weary of the unvaccinated (especially those not doing it for political reasons) and have grown to despise them. Shrugs.....
Neat. Curious how doing it for political reasons makes it worse. They can't be sincere?
I'm not sure what sincerity has to do with anything but yeah - I believe they are being sincere - sincerely stupid.
The reasons why doing it for political reasons make it worse is that their thinking isn't consistent. If they are military, they will go take that hill because of orders but getting this particular vaccine - well now they have their personal freedoms. Just ignant!
That's tolerance. And people have high tolerance for what they will take for the purposes of defending their beliefs. Why do people join the military? It's not because they enjoy being yelled at and demanded to answer to the higher ranked authority.
When this tolerance reaches a certain point, people will disobey the authority and say "enough is enough" this is where I draw my line in the sand.
Tolerance is a 2-way street.
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We're down to 1 positive in our facility. Dear God I hope this is the end.
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Tolerance is a 2-way street.
Lots of people do things every day that I tolerate without them even knowing I'm tolerating it...
I'm not just saying this stuff to win internet points. I know both a leftie and a righty who blame 'baby bitches' who won't engage in COVID mitigation/'stupid liberals' for letting communism ruin our society. This shit rots your brain folks!
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Your feelings are not uncommon. I have grown weary of the unvaccinated (especially those not doing it for political reasons) and have grown to despise them. Shrugs.....
Neat. Curious how doing it for political reasons makes it worse. They can't be sincere?
I'm not sure what sincerity has to do with anything but yeah - I believe they are being sincere - sincerely stupid.
The reasons why doing it for political reasons make it worse is that their thinking isn't consistent. If they are military, they will go take that hill because of orders but getting this particular vaccine - well now they have their personal freedoms. Just ignant!
You can't know they are inconsistent unless you know EXACTLY what they are thinking. There are SO MANY VARIABLES to these things you cannot possibly say that "taking a hill under military orders" and "taking a vaccine because the government mandates it" are necessarily "inconsistent". And you're patently ignoring the ways the GOVERNMENT is inconsistent in their application of "harm to society" as a means for furthering their agenda. Heart disease kills far more people in the US than COVID; our obesity rates are through the roof. How about the government start mandating weight requirements for our citizenry? Why don't we "fat-shame" the way we "vaccine-shame"? Where's the thread where we rag on everyone eating a Big Mac or a Whopper as "sincerely stupid"?
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Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on".
I wouldn't say that I "judge" people, and never think people deserve it, but at this point, 2 years into it, anyone who chooses not to take the recommended and reasonable precautions - while very much free to make those choices - will get not sympathy from me should those choices and actions lead to unfavorable consequences. It's not judgement as much as it is lack of sympathy - at least, from my perspective. Choices have consequences (both good and bad). Those that own the choice, also own the consequence.
But going with 'when people suffer the consequences of their bad choices they get no sympathy' as a default/stated philosophy? It doesn't take much creativity to find situations where if you apply that reasoning you'll run into some serious issues.
I didn't mean to imply I have a blanket default "no sympathy" for anyone making bad choices. For a lot of bad choices that are completely discretionary and self serving, knowingly "bad" or unsafe, and reasonably avoidable, I would say more often than not I would struggle to be sympathetic. Knowingly driving impaired and getting into a car accident? Not much sypmathy. Consuming 5000 calories daily of a high fat diet with no exercise then having "underlying conditions" ... not much sympathy. Unvax'd, unmasked, routinely going to crowded indoor spaces for purely discretionary purposes? Not much sympathy if you contract COIVD.
There will always be 'exceptions to the rule'. Example, my wife's uncle was killed in a head-on collision a number of years ago from a 20-something year old kid that fell asleep at the wheel. He'd been up all night (working I think) and driving home. Bad choice - most certainly given the outcome. But I can feel sympathy for the hell he's going thru (ie, having to live with his own actions taking the life of another person).
Yeah, the people doing it for political reasons are fucking stupid. But surely there's room for people that simply have a conflict or a legit fear of some sort.
And that's fine. If one fears the vaccine, but takes other reasonable precautions (masking, distancing, isolating etc...) and contracts COVID, I can feel sympathy. Those that spit in the face of all reasonable precautions is where I'm not likely to sympathize.
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Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on".
I wouldn't say that I "judge" people, and never think people deserve it, but at this point, 2 years into it, anyone who chooses not to take the recommended and reasonable precautions - while very much free to make those choices - will get not sympathy from me should those choices and actions lead to unfavorable consequences. It's not judgement as much as it is lack of sympathy - at least, from my perspective. Choices have consequences (both good and bad). Those that own the choice, also own the consequence.
But going with 'when people suffer the consequences of their bad choices they get no sympathy' as a default/stated philosophy? It doesn't take much creativity to find situations where if you apply that reasoning you'll run into some serious issues.
I didn't mean to imply I have a blanket default "no sympathy" for anyone making bad choices. For a lot of bad choices that are completely discretionary and self serving, knowingly "bad" or unsafe, and reasonably avoidable, I would say more often than not I would struggle to be sympathetic. Knowingly driving impaired and getting into a car accident? Not much sypmathy. Consuming 5000 calories daily of a high fat diet with no exercise then having "underlying conditions" ... not much sympathy. Unvax'd, unmasked, routinely going to crowded indoor spaces for purely discretionary purposes? Not much sympathy if you contract COIVD.
There will always be 'exceptions to the rule'. Example, my wife's uncle was killed in a head-on collision a number of years ago from a 20-something year old kid that fell asleep at the wheel. He'd been up all night (working I think) and driving home. Bad choice - most certainly given the outcome. But I can feel sympathy for the hell he's going thru (ie, having to live with his own actions taking the life of another person).
What you think is what you think. That's fair. And it's not like I don't have my inner moments of "you fucking idiot" (not about you). But I've said this elsewhere: everyone has a story. And when everyone has a story, NO ONE does. Sure, they have their life experiences, but we get to the point that it's impossible to take every one of the 7.9 billion (side bar: I've always used "7.3" and I googled it for shits and giggles - shits and googles? - and we're at 7.9 billion. ALMOST 8 BILLION PEOPLE) stories into account. Was that kid working? Working to feed his family, working to buy dope, what? Does it matter? We're human and we're fallible. We are exceedingly tactical - meaning, A to B to C - and we, as a means of survival, have a knack for finding connections and causation where none really exists. I can't sit here and muster a whole lot of disgust when you have people like my parents - vaxx'ed and in assisted living where I have to literally YELL at them to get out of their room and see people - and they get COVID, and I haven't, after numerous concerts, numerous flights, and kids around me that are in the germ soup we call schools. You said - and I think it was just a figure of speech - there are "exceptions to the rule". But there aren't any rules, only patterns, trends, and generalizations, and we're not even really talking about those. We're talking about SPECIFIC applications of those patterns/trends/generalizations, and in some cases, then ACTING on those (demanding that those that knowingly deviate from the patterns/trends/generalizations face arbitrary and subjective "consequences").
If we're just shooting the shit here, and noting "huh, I think that guy is an idiot!" then I'll go start my weekend. But it doesn't feel like that. I think a large majority of people saying "idiot!" WOULD enact laws, regulations, policies that would punish that idiocy.
Yeah, the people doing it for political reasons are fucking stupid. But surely there's room for people that simply have a conflict or a legit fear of some sort.
And that's fine. If one fears the vaccine, but takes other reasonable precautions (masking, distancing, isolating etc...) and contracts COVID, I can feel sympathy. Those that spit in the face of all reasonable precautions is where I'm not likely to sympathize.
Quick question, who decides "reasonable"? And why is disregarding those arbitrarily determined "reasonable" precautions automatically "spitting" on them? I can respect them, I can understand them, but not feel they are appropriate. Speeding laws, for one. Several gun laws for another.
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Well, my son is running a 100 degree fever and is very achy. Considering school is the only place he goes, literally, if he has Covid it came from there. Still getting daily emails about kids testing positive every day. May have finally caught up with him. Wife is taking him to be tested now.
Well, a day later and he is even sicker than before. No test result yet, but seems we know the answer. Coughing uncontrollably, trouble breathing, vomiting, diarrhea, the whole thing. He's way sicker than my daughter when she had it.
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Well, my son is running a 100 degree fever and is very achy. Considering school is the only place he goes, literally, if he has Covid it came from there. Still getting daily emails about kids testing positive every day. May have finally caught up with him. Wife is taking him to be tested now.
Well, a day later and he is even sicker than before. No test result yet, but seems we know the answer. Coughing uncontrollably, trouble breathing, vomiting, diarrhea, the whole thing. He's way sicker than my daughter when she had it.
I'm a pretty pragmatic guy, generally, but watching my kids (and now grandkids) be sick is probably the hardest thing I've endured as a parent. I feel for you and your family. Here's hoping the worst symptoms abate quickly.
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Well, my son is running a 100 degree fever and is very achy. Considering school is the only place he goes, literally, if he has Covid it came from there. Still getting daily emails about kids testing positive every day. May have finally caught up with him. Wife is taking him to be tested now.
Well, a day later and he is even sicker than before. No test result yet, but seems we know the answer. Coughing uncontrollably, trouble breathing, vomiting, diarrhea, the whole thing. He's way sicker than my daughter when she had it.
That sucks, but I hope he has a speedy recovery. Kids are strong.
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Not gonna quote the whole post, but just wanted to point out "exception to the rule" was being used as figure of speech. Not everything need to be taken so literally.
Well, my son is running a 100 degree fever and is very achy. Considering school is the only place he goes, literally, if he has Covid it came from there. Still getting daily emails about kids testing positive every day. May have finally caught up with him. Wife is taking him to be tested now.
Well, a day later and he is even sicker than before. No test result yet, but seems we know the answer. Coughing uncontrollably, trouble breathing, vomiting, diarrhea, the whole thing. He's way sicker than my daughter when she had it.
I'm a pretty pragmatic guy, generally, but watching my kids (and now grandkids) be sick is probably the hardest thing I've endured as a parent. I feel for you and your family. Here's hoping the worst symptoms abate quickly.
+1. That's tough on you, Prof. Hope it passes as quickly as it came on.
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If we're just shooting the shit here, and noting "huh, I think that guy is an idiot!" then I'll go start my weekend. But it doesn't feel like that. I think a large majority of people saying "idiot!" WOULD enact laws, regulations, policies that would punish that idiocy.
That has happened many many times throughout history. This is why we have regulations on food, medicine, building codes, on vehicle safety, putting a swimming pool in your back yard, hell even keeping a chicken coop. Laws and policies are designed to keep "idiots" from harming other people with their idiocy. And these laws and regulations started with one person speaking out and gathering the support of others toward their cause.
That doesn't mean I like having all of these regulations. I didn't like having some city employee come to my house six months after I got a new AC unit installed to ensure it was installed correctly (my tax dollars at work!) but probably somewhere some family or some property was damaged by some incompetent HVAC business and laws were changed. And now the city makes money to ensure my family is protected. Seems like a racket to me, but what the fuck do I know? Maybe it is keeping me and mine safe. Maybe I'm just too much of an "idiot" to understand how an AC unit could potentially harm me and I need that regulation. Is that a form of punishment?
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ProfessorPeart, I hope your son feels better soon. You've probably already done so, but perhaps a call into his pediatrician's office just as a precaution? At least have a game plan going into the weekend for what to do should he need more supportive care. Might set your mind at ease a little bit. :heart
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If we're just shooting the shit here, and noting "huh, I think that guy is an idiot!" then I'll go start my weekend. But it doesn't feel like that. I think a large majority of people saying "idiot!" WOULD enact laws, regulations, policies that would punish that idiocy.
That has happened many many times throughout history. This is why we have regulations on food, medicine, building codes, on vehicle safety, putting a swimming pool in your back yard, hell even keeping a chicken coop. Laws and policies are designed to keep "idiots" from harming other people with their idiocy. And these laws and regulations started with one person speaking out and gathering the support of others toward their cause.
That doesn't mean I like having all of these regulations. I didn't like having some city employee come to my house six months after I got a new AC unit installed to ensure it was installed correctly (my tax dollars at work!) but probably somewhere some family or some property was damaged by some incompetent HVAC business and laws were changed. And now the city makes money to ensure my family is protected. Seems like a racket to me, but what the fuck do I know? Maybe it is keeping me and mine safe. Maybe I'm just too much of an "idiot" to understand how an AC unit could potentially harm me and I need that regulation. Is that a form of punishment?
I'm not sure I can articulate this clearly, and let's not assume that I necessarily think the housing regulations are okay either (I'm indifferent, truth be told and you'll see why in a second) but there's a pretty broad difference of scope here. There are at least FIVE parties involved in your scenario above, and only two or three in the scenario at hand. The vast majority of regulations in that arena aren't about the sort of utopian "balancing the individual right versus the greater good" that seems to surround the vaccine issue. You need not put an AC unit in and no one is going to be the wiser, and no one is going to call you (in any meaningful way) an idiot either way. Most housing regs aren't for you and me; they are for the insurance companies, so that they will underwrite houses so that mortgage companies will issue loans so that the housing market remains robust. And unless you've been a homeowner for generations, you've likely signed away any rights you had to object to that when you bought; you agreed, before you got the right in title to that property, to acquiesce to that intrusion. There's no component of "fundamental rights" in the constitutional sense to ANY of this.
Vaccines are different, though. I struggle with why some people (not suggesting you, Harmony, I'm speaking generally) don't UNDERSTAND - I didn't say "agree", I didn't say "accept", just "understand" - the conceptual difference of say, getting a driver's license (another mode of government intrusion in our lives that sometimes gets offered when talking about vaccines) and having the government stick a needle in your arm, and why that might be a problem for some people.
This isn't to you, Harmony, in response to anything you wrote, but it anticipates a certain response that I might get from others on something: That we've "done this" before for other vaccines isn't really the point; it was a slippery slope then, and this is just that hen coming home to roost. Letting it go then on the premise that "it's not that big a deal" I can only venture didn't contemplate a scenario like the COVID-19 pandemic, and rather than it being an example of why we should STFU on a COVID vaccine, is likely the best argument why we SHOULDN'T. What's next?
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If we're just shooting the shit here, and noting "huh, I think that guy is an idiot!" then I'll go start my weekend. But it doesn't feel like that. I think a large majority of people saying "idiot!" WOULD enact laws, regulations, policies that would punish that idiocy.
That has happened many many times throughout history. This is why we have regulations on food, medicine, building codes, on vehicle safety, putting a swimming pool in your back yard, hell even keeping a chicken coop. Laws and policies are designed to keep "idiots" from harming other people with their idiocy. And these laws and regulations started with one person speaking out and gathering the support of others toward their cause.
That doesn't mean I like having all of these regulations. I didn't like having some city employee come to my house six months after I got a new AC unit installed to ensure it was installed correctly (my tax dollars at work!) but probably somewhere some family or some property was damaged by some incompetent HVAC business and laws were changed. And now the city makes money to ensure my family is protected. Seems like a racket to me, but what the fuck do I know? Maybe it is keeping me and mine safe. Maybe I'm just too much of an "idiot" to understand how an AC unit could potentially harm me and I need that regulation. Is that a form of punishment?
There's countries that do not have these regulations and were well off before the others implemented their regulations onto them. The effects of colonization determined what regulations humans follow.
If you want AC you would have to know how to do it, if not, then that sucks for you and now you have to gather wood for your fireplace. But, oh no, houses don't have fireplaces anymore.
Social Structures were changed into what is considered "the norm" and what is happening is these are being challenged and reconsidered. Do humans really need these benefits and "advantages"?
Urbanization and Industrialization changed humans social constructs and we're only seeing the consequences of that decision now. Both the beneficial and the detrimental consequences.
In some societies and cultures, you don't think for yourself to determine what is good for you. Whatever the authority determines is good for the people, everyone has to follow. China is a great example of that with it's Child Laws and it's regulation of Masculinity and Male Dominance. Women from China leave there so they can be better treated here in America. Now they're concerned the boys are being more effeminate, and China is doing things to prevent that feminity and are requiring the boys to do more masculine things.
For the betterment of China as a Nation. They determined that effeminate boys are a threat to that. And many other things are considered a threat to their National Standards.
It goes way beyond regulations and rules and is about Nationalism, the betterment of the country, and control of the populace.
Every Nation wants to be the number one GOAT nation. And America benefits from that label and people are saying, nah, you aren't, we are. And then we get into fights and conflicts and that's how wars begin.
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I'm not sure I can articulate this clearly, and let's not assume that I necessarily think the housing regulations are okay either (I'm indifferent, truth be told and you'll see why in a second) but there's a pretty broad difference of scope here. There are at least FIVE parties involved in your scenario above, and only two or three in the scenario at hand. The vast majority of regulations in that arena aren't about the sort of utopian "balancing the individual right versus the greater good" that seems to surround the vaccine issue. You need not put an AC unit in and no one is going to be the wiser, and no one is going to call you (in any meaningful way) an idiot either way. Most housing regs aren't for you and me; they are for the insurance companies, so that they will underwrite houses so that mortgage companies will issue loans so that the housing market remains robust. And unless you've been a homeowner for generations, you've likely signed away any rights you had to object to that when you bought; you agreed, before you got the right in title to that property, to acquiesce to that intrusion. There's no component of "fundamental rights" in the constitutional sense to ANY of this.
Vaccines are different, though. I struggle with why some people (not suggesting you, Harmony, I'm speaking generally) don't UNDERSTAND - I didn't say "agree", I didn't say "accept", just "understand" - the conceptual difference of say, getting a driver's license (another mode of government intrusion in our lives that sometimes gets offered when talking about vaccines) and having the government stick a needle in your arm, and why that might be a problem for some people.
This isn't to you, Harmony, in response to anything you wrote, but it anticipates a certain response that I might get from others on something: That we've "done this" before for other vaccines isn't really the point; it was a slippery slope then, and this is just that hen coming home to roost. Letting it go then on the premise that "it's not that big a deal" I can only venture didn't contemplate a scenario like the COVID-19 pandemic, and rather than it being an example of why we should STFU on a COVID vaccine, is likely the best argument why we SHOULDN'T. What's next?
You could make a serious argument that the slippery slope "fallacy" is one of the most damaging memes to cogent discussion of anything. Slippery slopes are inevitable.
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Vaccines are different, though. I struggle with why some people (not suggesting you, Harmony, I'm speaking generally) don't UNDERSTAND - I didn't say "agree", I didn't say "accept", just "understand" - the conceptual difference of say, getting a driver's license (another mode of government intrusion in our lives that sometimes gets offered when talking about vaccines) and having the government stick a needle in your arm, and why that might be a problem for some people.
The concept I have a hard time with is you characterizing getting a driver's license as being a "government intrusion." That belies your particular distinct perspective on these matters in much the same way (although opposite) to some of the others here (which I assume includes me) whose perspectives you object to.
This isn't to you, Harmony, in response to anything you wrote, but it anticipates a certain response that I might get from others on something: That we've "done this" before for other vaccines isn't really the point; it was a slippery slope then, and this is just that hen coming home to roost. Letting it go then on the premise that "it's not that big a deal" I can only venture didn't contemplate a scenario like the COVID-19 pandemic, and rather than it being an example of why we should STFU on a COVID vaccine, is likely the best argument why we SHOULDN'T. What's next?
That we've been through it before really IS the point. Calling something a slippery slope doesn't make it so. The results of our response to the Spanish Flu in the early 1900s were the blueprint for what should have happened with COVID, down to mask wearing and vaccinations.
What's next? The next big virus, for which a sizable portion of the populace will irrationally object to any recommended practices of protection. And we'll have a million or more citizens die, many of whom will die needlessly. Except it will be worse next time, because I'm sure that many healthcare workers will say "to hell with this" after being overwhelmed with THIS round.
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I find it fascinating that questions like "what's next" in these kinds of context expecting the path of "what could / will go wrong?" How about thinking about it in the context of "what could go right?"
Maybe what's next is ... nothing. Bill... just as you said constantly remind us, Kavanaugh's appointment did not literally mean women died. Like Hef said, envisioning a "slippery slope" doesn't mean there is one.
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Are we still micromanaging the shit out of a simple medical procedure?
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Vaccines are different, though. I struggle with why some people (not suggesting you, Harmony, I'm speaking generally) don't UNDERSTAND - I didn't say "agree", I didn't say "accept", just "understand" - the conceptual difference of say, getting a driver's license (another mode of government intrusion in our lives that sometimes gets offered when talking about vaccines) and having the government stick a needle in your arm, and why that might be a problem for some people.
The concept I have a hard time with is you characterizing getting a driver's license as being a "government intrusion." That belies your particular distinct perspective on these matters in much the same way (although opposite) to some of the others here (which I assume includes me) whose perspectives you object to.
This isn't to you, Harmony, in response to anything you wrote, but it anticipates a certain response that I might get from others on something: That we've "done this" before for other vaccines isn't really the point; it was a slippery slope then, and this is just that hen coming home to roost. Letting it go then on the premise that "it's not that big a deal" I can only venture didn't contemplate a scenario like the COVID-19 pandemic, and rather than it being an example of why we should STFU on a COVID vaccine, is likely the best argument why we SHOULDN'T. What's next?
That we've been through it before really IS the point. Calling something a slippery slope doesn't make it so. The results of our response to the Spanish Flu in the early 1900s were the blueprint for what should have happened with COVID, down to mask wearing and vaccinations.
What's next? The next big virus, for which a sizable portion of the populace will irrationally object to any recommended practices of protection. And we'll have a million or more citizens die, many of whom will die needlessly. Except it will be worse next time, because I'm sure that many healthcare workers will say "to hell with this" after being overwhelmed with THIS round.
Are you accounting for how humans lifestyles were back then? Human lifestyles are not the same as they were back then.
They are more invested in different aspects and have different mindsets than before.
Imagine what we could have had if they didn't have the mindset that Cannabis causes the white children to act out like the immoral black man and made a plant illegal for everybody. Because that's how the mindsets were not even 100 years ago.
You can't expect peoples mindsets to change within 100 years, it takes generations for mindsets to change and that requires trust and obedience. You obey authority, don't question it, and just do what your told.
Lots of humans die needlessly. Take a look at third world countries who have humans dying needlessly because other humans just have a desire and want for certain products that deplete the resources, causing hardships for those people that reside in that place. Yet, humans still desire those things and are not changing anytime soon. To where they won't deplete those resources and cause hardships for others, if they supposedly care about humans.
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What's next? The next big virus, for which a sizable portion of the populace will irrationally object to any recommended practices of protection. And we'll have a million or more citizens die, many of whom will die needlessly. Except it will be worse next time, because I'm sure that many healthcare workers will say "to hell with this" after being overwhelmed with THIS round.
When the speed limit was lowered to 55 mph nationally, compliance was so bad that eventually the lower speed limit was scrapped. People didn't follow the law and the government gave up on it knowing that it might be more dangerous because people don't want to drive that slow.
People have the right to make decisions that carry risks/consequences to life in order to get some other benefit. If you want to do those things you can do them.
And in terms of the healthcare workers thing - and this applies to a lot of different arguments about COVID - I don't know why the average person is somehow responsible for the state of the healthcare system. Somehow during the last few months hospitals experienced peak profits in spite of low staffing and high COVID case numbers. Fixing the healthcare system is a public policy issue not something we all need to band together to do. It's like when California tried to get people to save water by not flushing after they took a piss, meanwhile the almond industry uses 10% of the state's water.
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Vaccines are different, though. I struggle with why some people (not suggesting you, Harmony, I'm speaking generally) don't UNDERSTAND - I didn't say "agree", I didn't say "accept", just "understand" - the conceptual difference of say, getting a driver's license (another mode of government intrusion in our lives that sometimes gets offered when talking about vaccines) and having the government stick a needle in your arm, and why that might be a problem for some people.
The concept I have a hard time with is you characterizing getting a driver's license as being a "government intrusion." That belies your particular distinct perspective on these matters in much the same way (although opposite) to some of the others here (which I assume includes me) whose perspectives you object to.
I honestly don't follow; I only said "government intrusion" as a sort of placeholder for why it's similar to a vaccine. FOR ME, I don't have much problem with quote, government intrusion, unquote, where it's a reasonable compromise. I only object to it when it's the collective running rough shod over the fundamental rights that we, the people, have. Roe (in terms of the "trimester limitations") is right. Planned Parenthood is right. The silly "abortion is legal up until you get a positive pregnancy test" are not. The former allow you a reasonable choice to exercise your rights to autonomy, while providing a reasonable protection for the individual life to have theirs. The latter is just the guv'ment telling you what to do. I feel like my position isn't just "the opposite" of what others want; I like to think my position let's ALL of us do what we want, whereas the opposite will always have some subset of the population looking to right past wrongs.
This isn't to you, Harmony, in response to anything you wrote, but it anticipates a certain response that I might get from others on something: That we've "done this" before for other vaccines isn't really the point; it was a slippery slope then, and this is just that hen coming home to roost. Letting it go then on the premise that "it's not that big a deal" I can only venture didn't contemplate a scenario like the COVID-19 pandemic, and rather than it being an example of why we should STFU on a COVID vaccine, is likely the best argument why we SHOULDN'T. What's next?
That we've been through it before really IS the point. Calling something a slippery slope doesn't make it so. The results of our response to the Spanish Flu in the early 1900s were the blueprint for what should have happened with COVID, down to mask wearing and vaccinations.
What's next? The next big virus, for which a sizable portion of the populace will irrationally object to any recommended practices of protection. And we'll have a million or more citizens die, many of whom will die needlessly. Except it will be worse next time, because I'm sure that many healthcare workers will say "to hell with this" after being overwhelmed with THIS round.
Okay, so? "Irrational" is a meaningless word here. it just means you don't agree. I think objecting to protection is (or rather can be) EXTREMELY rational. I don't agree with it, but it's (or rather it can be) rational.
I don't see anywhere in any mainstream law, regulation, statute, philosophy, dictum, or manifesto where "needless deaths" are to be avoided at all cost, including to personal freedom. I mourn for them, of course, but isn't any homicide "needless" by definition?
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I find it fascinating that questions like "what's next" in these kinds of context expecting the path of "what could / will go wrong?" How about thinking about it in the context of "what could go right?"
Maybe what's next is ... nothing. Bill... just as you said constantly remind us, Kavanaugh's appointment did not literally mean women died. Like Hef said, envisioning a "slippery slope" doesn't mean there is one.
I don't disagree with any of that. I've already said that we're humans so we're really SHITTY at being strategic, and we're really SHITTY at judging relative risk. I was merely pointing out that this COULD BE the slippery slope in action, that's all.
(But there's no doubt that the slippery slope DOES exist; we see it all the time in a multitude of ways with a corresponding degree of harm.)
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I find it fascinating that questions like "what's next" in these kinds of context expecting the path of "what could / will go wrong?" How about thinking about it in the context of "what could go right?"
Maybe what's next is ... nothing. Bill... just as you said constantly remind us, Kavanaugh's appointment did not literally mean women died. Like Hef said, envisioning a "slippery slope" doesn't mean there is one.
I don't disagree with any of that. I've already said that we're humans so we're really SHITTY at being strategic, and we're really SHITTY at judging relative risk. I was merely pointing out that this COULD BE the slippery slope in action, that's all.
(But there's no doubt that the slippery slope DOES exist; we see it all the time in a multitude of ways with a corresponding degree of harm.)
This is not a "gotcha" question but a serious question. Does the "slippery slope" argument always mean "harm"? Can it be a slippery slope to anything beneficial for society? Can one person's "harm" be another person's "benefit?"
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I find it fascinating that questions like "what's next" in these kinds of context expecting the path of "what could / will go wrong?" How about thinking about it in the context of "what could go right?"
Maybe what's next is ... nothing. Bill... just as you said constantly remind us, Kavanaugh's appointment did not literally mean women died. Like Hef said, envisioning a "slippery slope" doesn't mean there is one.
I don't disagree with any of that. I've already said that we're humans so we're really SHITTY at being strategic, and we're really SHITTY at judging relative risk. I was merely pointing out that this COULD BE the slippery slope in action, that's all.
(But there's no doubt that the slippery slope DOES exist; we see it all the time in a multitude of ways with a corresponding degree of harm.)
This is not a "gotcha" question but a serious question. Does the "slippery slope" argument always mean "harm"? Can it be a slippery slope to anything beneficial for society? Can one person's "harm" be another person's "benefit?"
I am not Stadler but the answer is always harm.
A building takes years to build but can be destroyed in a day. An emergency measure can be passed in a week of furious emotion and take years to unwind. A moral panic causes drug laws to be enacted that a century later have resulted in a massive prison industrial complex we still can't unwind.
The easier choice is never the right choice. And it's the one you always "slip" into.
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the answer is always harm.
This explains a lot.
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I find it fascinating that questions like "what's next" in these kinds of context expecting the path of "what could / will go wrong?" How about thinking about it in the context of "what could go right?"
Maybe what's next is ... nothing. Bill... just as you said constantly remind us, Kavanaugh's appointment did not literally mean women died. Like Hef said, envisioning a "slippery slope" doesn't mean there is one.
I've already said that we're humans so we're really SHITTY at being strategic,
If you're familiar with Pokemon, the history of Twitch Plays Pokemon is enlightening - https://www.reddit.com/r/twitchplayspokemon/wiki/historyoftpp_gen1
A stream was put up that allowed the mob to collectively play Pokemon Red. A reasonably experienced casual player can beat the game in about two days of continuous play. It took the mob two weeks. Over that period:
- Religion was formed
- A false prophet was formed
- Political systems formed based on how the mob should control the game, with arguments about whether Democracy or Anarchy was superior
- Due partially to mistakes and partially malicious actors, multiple valuable Pokemon were purposefully killed off
- Some parts of the game were simply intraversable without Democracy mode
- Multiple boss battles took multiple attempts at beating them hoping to get the right sequence of moves because no way were they going into Democracy mode
EDIT AND MOST IMPORTANTLY - There were multiple discussions on Reddit about what strategies they should use to proceed through the game. The suggested strategies had nothing to do with what even a normal, thinking person would think is the best way to progress through the game. Instead, it was trying to compromise a strategy that could possibly work with the adopted religious, political, and iconographic allegiances the player base had adopted.
I am not kidding - You will learn more about how society functions by understanding TPP than reading any social science book.
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I find it fascinating that questions like "what's next" in these kinds of context expecting the path of "what could / will go wrong?" How about thinking about it in the context of "what could go right?"
Maybe what's next is ... nothing. Bill... just as you said constantly remind us, Kavanaugh's appointment did not literally mean women died. Like Hef said, envisioning a "slippery slope" doesn't mean there is one.
I don't disagree with any of that. I've already said that we're humans so we're really SHITTY at being strategic, and we're really SHITTY at judging relative risk. I was merely pointing out that this COULD BE the slippery slope in action, that's all.
(But there's no doubt that the slippery slope DOES exist; we see it all the time in a multitude of ways with a corresponding degree of harm.)
This is not a "gotcha" question but a serious question. Does the "slippery slope" argument always mean "harm"? Can it be a slippery slope to anything beneficial for society? Can one person's "harm" be another person's "benefit?"
To the first question, it depends. To the second question yes.
Lastly, to the third, a big yes, and my people are an example of that. The slippery slope being we are not intelligent enough to know what's good for our own people. Hence why those in power went out of their way to instill their authority onto us. They considered my ancestors and many other cultures as lesser than their own culture.
The Third World countries are another example of one person's harm being another's benefit.
It's the rhetoric of...Doing this will benefit them, creating "jobs" and help them sustain themselves, all they need is to abide by our societal behaviors and mindsets, thus making them beneficial people of society.
We do not know the future, we can not predict what the outcomes will be. We can not expect things of the future, because doing so will guarantee disappointment and resentment when the outcomes of the future do not meet your expectations of it.
An example is the expectations instilled of future technology such as flying cars and hover boards.
We can always try and predict the future to be more aware of a possible outcome, but we must also realize that our expected outcome won't possibly happen as well. We shouldn't always expect our outcome to be what reality determines the outcome to be.
That's what should be expected and has been proven throughout history in many different societal structures.
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I find it fascinating that questions like "what's next" in these kinds of context expecting the path of "what could / will go wrong?" How about thinking about it in the context of "what could go right?"
Maybe what's next is ... nothing. Bill... just as you said constantly remind us, Kavanaugh's appointment did not literally mean women died. Like Hef said, envisioning a "slippery slope" doesn't mean there is one.
I don't disagree with any of that. I've already said that we're humans so we're really SHITTY at being strategic, and we're really SHITTY at judging relative risk. I was merely pointing out that this COULD BE the slippery slope in action, that's all.
(But there's no doubt that the slippery slope DOES exist; we see it all the time in a multitude of ways with a corresponding degree of harm.)
This is not a "gotcha" question but a serious question. Does the "slippery slope" argument always mean "harm"? Can it be a slippery slope to anything beneficial for society? Can one person's "harm" be another person's "benefit?"
No, yes, and yes. :) :) But that's me; I consider the "slippery slope" to be any time a seemingly innocuous incremental change makes it far more likely for a transitional change to happen than it would have before the incremental change. Now, we quibble about tax rates all the time, but there's no real serious debate about removing taxes altogether; Abe Lincoln's implementation of a temporary Federal Income Tax - later made permanent by Bill Taft - is the very definition of a "slippery slope" and it both causes harm (to some) and benefits (to some).
Linguisitically, of course, the metaphor of a "slippery slope" implies falling, implies harm. But it need not be, IMO.
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I find it fascinating that questions like "what's next" in these kinds of context expecting the path of "what could / will go wrong?" How about thinking about it in the context of "what could go right?"
Maybe what's next is ... nothing. Bill... just as you said constantly remind us, Kavanaugh's appointment did not literally mean women died. Like Hef said, envisioning a "slippery slope" doesn't mean there is one.
I've already said that we're humans so we're really SHITTY at being strategic,
If you're familiar with Pokemon, the history of Twitch Plays Pokemon is enlightening - https://www.reddit.com/r/twitchplayspokemon/wiki/historyoftpp_gen1
A stream was put up that allowed the mob to collectively play Pokemon Red. A reasonably experienced casual player can beat the game in about two days of continuous play. It took the mob two weeks. Over that period:
- Religion was formed
- A false prophet was formed
- Political systems formed based on how the mob should control the game, with arguments about whether Democracy or Anarchy was superior
- Due partially to mistakes and partially malicious actors, multiple valuable Pokemon were purposefully killed off
- Some parts of the game were simply intraversable without Democracy mode
- Multiple boss battles took multiple attempts at beating them hoping to get the right sequence of moves because no way were they going into Democracy mode
I am not kidding - You will learn more about how society functions by understanding TPP than reading any social science book.
And yes, that's a great insight into the behaviors and mindsets of humans. Thanks for bringing this up, I need to save this because I feel it really does shed light into human mindsets and behaviors. Also, on the outcomes of reality compared to the expectations of possible outcomes.
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the answer is always harm.
This explains a lot.
But you're a harm guy, aren't you? Isn't that a variable in most if not all of your equations? It's not for me, and for others. Some, yes, but not all. I don't see "harm" - which is subjective in many cases - as being the be-all and end-all of these discussions.
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I can't recall ever hearing the term "slippery slope" used for anything but going negative. Considering a slope means going down, I am not immediately aware of a situation where the term makes sense to be used for something positive.
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I can't recall ever hearing the term "slippery slope" used for anything but going negative. Considering a slope means going down, I am not immediately aware of a situation where the term makes sense to be used for something positive.
You could argue that the WFH movement was a bit of a slippery slope. A lot of people who "temporarily" were sent home from the office have stayed that way due to simple inertia (me included).
But a lot of places have had to come back. And you can see the middle-manager class try to astroturf public opinion back to going to the office with articles about how lonely working from home is. WFH being a thing into the future is not an inevitability.
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the answer is always harm.
This explains a lot.
But you're a harm guy, aren't you? Isn't that a variable in most if not all of your equations? It's not for me, and for others. Some, yes, but not all. I don't see "harm" - which is subjective in many cases - as being the be-all and end-all of these discussions.
I'm drawing a complete blank by what you mean by "a harm guy"? Help me understand what you mean.
I can't recall ever hearing the term "slippery slope" used for anything but going negative. Considering a slope means going down, I am not immediately aware of a situation where the term makes sense to be used for something positive.
True enough... but Harmony raised the good question of need it always be considered a negative thing. To the point of "one person's harm is another person's benefit"... racial acceptance, sexual orientation/identification, diversity/equity/inclusion, religious acceptance would be good examples.
As for things people may have feared would be a 'slippery slope' to negative consequences ... various industry deregulations might have been feared to be a 'slippery slope' that ended up benefitting society. Same could be said for certain technology innovations - self-driving vehicles for instance. AI. Genetic engineering. Medical research (for instance, animal organ transplants).
And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head.
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I can't recall ever hearing the term "slippery slope" used for anything but going negative. Considering a slope means going down, I am not immediately aware of a situation where the term makes sense to be used for something positive.
You could argue that the WFH movement was a bit of a slippery slope. A lot of people who "temporarily" were sent home from the office have stayed that way due to simple inertia (me included).
But a lot of places have had to come back. And you can see the middle-manager class try to astroturf public opinion back to going to the office with articles about how lonely working from home is. WFH being a thing into the future is not an inevitability.
Cram... read "The Other Gods" by H P Lovecraft. Plenty of sliding up slippery slopes in that short story. :biggrin: How many writers can make geometry, architecture, and art so horrific.
Speaking for our company, WFH began as inertia and has morphed into a way to be more productive. There's no way we could have pulled through the type of volume we pulled through in 2020 and 2021 working in the office (both years we banner years; 2021 being better than any two previous years combined). We actually sold my office and have likely decided not to renew the lease in the owner's office in B-burg (we retain our original office)... our bet being that Commercial Real Estate may have peaked and it was time to get out. The vast majority of our business is online as we are completely paperless and I can conduct client interviews via phone or Zoom. I'm happy to meet a client if necessary, but I'm way, way more productive at home.
I think WFH is the majority wave of the future for the industries in which it makes sense (I'm a Mortgage Loan Originator).
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CDC coordinating with Facebook on propaganda - https://www.icandecide.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/IR0543-FB-emails-with-OMB-002.pdf
Very trustworthy
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So you want cheese with that nothing burger?
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Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on".
I wouldn't say that I "judge" people, and never think people deserve it, but at this point, 2 years into it, anyone who chooses not to take the recommended and reasonable precautions - while very much free to make those choices - will get not sympathy from me should those choices and actions lead to unfavorable consequences. It's not judgement as much as it is lack of sympathy - at least, from my perspective. Choices have consequences (both good and bad). Those that own the choice, also own the consequence.
Look, you (royal) go outside in February rain without an umbrella or a coat, then getting wet is something you brought on yourself. I'm not judging you for it, but I've got no sympathy for your situation. And please Bill... no need to find the situations (but what if it's because the smoke detector went off at 2am?) where it's quite reasonable. For once, just go along with the point. ;D I'm speaking generally.
Your feelings are not uncommon. I have grown weary of the unvaccinated (especially those not doing it for political reasons) and have grown to despise them. Shrugs.....
You prefer to only catch Covid from vaccinated folks. :)
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I can't recall ever hearing the term "slippery slope" used for anything but going negative. Considering a slope means going down, I am not immediately aware of a situation where the term makes sense to be used for something positive.
You could argue that the WFH movement was a bit of a slippery slope. A lot of people who "temporarily" were sent home from the office have stayed that way due to simple inertia (me included).
But a lot of places have had to come back. And you can see the middle-manager class try to astroturf public opinion back to going to the office with articles about how lonely working from home is. WFH being a thing into the future is not an inevitability.
Cram... read "The Other Gods" by H P Lovecraft. Plenty of sliding up slippery slopes in that short story. :biggrin: How many writers can make geometry, architecture, and art so horrific.
Speaking for our company, WFH began as inertia and has morphed into a way to be more productive. There's no way we could have pulled through the type of volume we pulled through in 2020 and 2021 working in the office (both years we banner years; 2021 being better than any two previous years combined). We actually sold my office and have likely decided not to renew the lease in the owner's office in B-burg (we retain our original office)... our bet being that Commercial Real Estate may have peaked and it was time to get out. The vast majority of our business is online as we are completely paperless and I can conduct client interviews via phone or Zoom. I'm happy to meet a client if necessary, but I'm way, way more productive at home.
I think WFH is the majority wave of the future for the industries in which it makes sense (I'm a Mortgage Loan Originator).
WFH - is now the reality depending on the job. I was talking to a friend of mine recently who was speaking with the building maintenance manager at my old job and their monthly electricity cost for the 3 buildings has dropped significantly. I would love to see that bill.
My own State is seriously looking at vacating the many buildings we occupy as a cost savings measure and they are trying to get us a 5.5% salary increase across the board to go along 2% increase we got in January which means we could have a 7.5% in 2022. This will increase the States ability to recruit and retain talent nationwide. When they recalled employees back in the summer of last year, they saw a massive increase retirements and resignations. Hell, my own State announced in January a minimum $15.00 an hour for all State employees. Our Governor is a dickhead but I credit him for backing this move.
My point is that covid has forced businesses to reconsider their business model and WFH along with making a living wage is part of that.
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Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on".
I wouldn't say that I "judge" people, and never think people deserve it, but at this point, 2 years into it, anyone who chooses not to take the recommended and reasonable precautions - while very much free to make those choices - will get not sympathy from me should those choices and actions lead to unfavorable consequences. It's not judgement as much as it is lack of sympathy - at least, from my perspective. Choices have consequences (both good and bad). Those that own the choice, also own the consequence.
Look, you (royal) go outside in February rain without an umbrella or a coat, then getting wet is something you brought on yourself. I'm not judging you for it, but I've got no sympathy for your situation. And please Bill... no need to find the situations (but what if it's because the smoke detector went off at 2am?) where it's quite reasonable. For once, just go along with the point. ;D I'm speaking generally.
Your feelings are not uncommon. I have grown weary of the unvaccinated (especially those not doing it for political reasons) and have grown to despise them. Shrugs.....
You prefer to only catch Covid from vaccinated folks. :)
HA! :)
But at this point, it's more about the disruption of other people's lives by a minority of the unvaccinated. Take the trucker's strike in Canada. They are protesting the disruption in their lives and the disruption of their "personal freedoms" by doing that exact same thing to others but they are too ignorant to understand this.
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CDC coordinating with Facebook on propaganda - https://www.icandecide.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/IR0543-FB-emails-with-OMB-002.pdf
Very trustworthy
Stop spreading dangerous right wing misinformation, you bigot.
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Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on".
I wouldn't say that I "judge" people, and never think people deserve it, but at this point, 2 years into it, anyone who chooses not to take the recommended and reasonable precautions - while very much free to make those choices - will get not sympathy from me should those choices and actions lead to unfavorable consequences. It's not judgement as much as it is lack of sympathy - at least, from my perspective. Choices have consequences (both good and bad). Those that own the choice, also own the consequence.
Look, you (royal) go outside in February rain without an umbrella or a coat, then getting wet is something you brought on yourself. I'm not judging you for it, but I've got no sympathy for your situation. And please Bill... no need to find the situations (but what if it's because the smoke detector went off at 2am?) where it's quite reasonable. For once, just go along with the point. ;D I'm speaking generally.
Your feelings are not uncommon. I have grown weary of the unvaccinated (especially those not doing it for political reasons) and have grown to despise them. Shrugs.....
You prefer to only catch Covid from vaccinated folks. :)
HA! :)
But at this point, it's more about the disruption of other people's lives by a minority of the unvaccinated. Take the trucker's strike in Canada. They are protesting the disruption in their lives and the disruption of their "personal freedoms" by doing that exact same thing to others but they are too ignorant to understand this.
No, the truckers just don't want to live under a social credit system linked to a QR code under the guise of public health, but many people are too ignorant to understand this.
I would say that not being able to take a train or fly domestically in your own country without being injected with a big pharma product that you don't want or need is a serious infringement on basic human freedoms and worth fighting for.
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You have a phone they already have that though.
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As far as I know, you can fly within America without being vaccinated. Unless I’m missing the info.
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You have a phone they already have that though.
They know our exact location at any given moment, no doubt about that. However, we are inching closer and closer towards having your bank account frozen and all assets seized for having "unacceptable views" (aka committing a thought crime) as the glorious PM of Canada would say. Sorry, that's not a world that I want to live in.
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As far as I know, you can fly within America without being vaccinated. Unless I’m missing the info.
I was referring to Canada.
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As far as I know, you can fly within America without being vaccinated. Unless I’m missing the info.
I was referring to Canada.
Gotcha!
Well, we all Canada is basically 1930's Germany anyway, so I'm not too shocked.
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But at this point, it's more about the disruption of other people's lives by a minority of the unvaccinated. Take the trucker's strike in Canada. They are protesting the disruption in their lives and the disruption of their "personal freedoms" by doing that exact same thing to others but they are too ignorant to understand this.
In talking about the Canadian trucker protests, it is useful to consider that there are two separate ones that are significant. The first and more prominent in the media is the one in Ottawa. The second and less prominent (but arguably more impactful practically speaking) is the blockade at the US/Canada border. These two protests from what I can tell aren't really actually connected, and in an interview with one of the leaders of the Ottawa protest, he actually distanced himself a bit from the border blockade. The blockade I think is outside the scope of this particular thread and more of a political question.
As pertains to the Ottawa protest, as far as I can tell, every claim about them being violent or blocking roadways is an outright falsehood or an exaggeration of some minor incident. Given that, I would hope no one here is actually going to argue against the right of peaceful protest, even if it is disruptive or uncomfortable. Like in a sense I don't even know what you're trying to say or imply here. They absolutely know they are being disruptive or they wouldn't do it. But in their minds they have a legitimate grievance. In a free society you have the right to protest as a way to generate negotiating leverage.
This is an overall trend I see in this thread. Being mad at parents for using aggressive tactics against school boards when they don't like masking policies. Calling the trucker protest stupid because you think it is disruptive. In free societies these are the tactics available to push your opinion rather than using violence. If you tell people they can't argue vigorously and effectively for what they want, then what option are you leaving them...
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You have a phone they already have that though.
They know our exact location at any given moment, no doubt about that. However, we are inching closer and closer towards having your bank account frozen and all assets seized for having "unacceptable views" (aka committing a thought crime) as the glorious PM of Canada would say. Sorry, that's not a world that I want to live in.
That's a bit extreme. Freewill is still yours. They just squeeze you about going to places. That happens in major cities but not all places.
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As far as I know, you can fly within America without being vaccinated. Unless I’m missing the info.
I was referring to Canada.
Gotcha!
Well, we all Canada is basically 1930's Germany anyway, so I'm not too shocked.
:lol
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No, the truckers just don't want to live under a social credit system linked to a QR code under the guise of public health, but many people are too ignorant to understand this.
This post (and your subsequent ones) remind me of the old axiom...
(https://www.brainyquote.com/photos_tr/en/m/marktwain/103535/marktwain1-2x.jpg)
You clearly have no knowledge about what those protests were really about, so pretty please, with a cherry on top, ferme la bouche.
@Reapsta.... the Ottawa event was far from a peaceful protest. I have many colleagues who work in Ottawa, so I'm not solely relying on media reports when I say with absolute confidence, this was more of an occupation than a protest. It doesn't take too much hunting to provide proof of the that. Was there direct physical violence - not exactly. But that's shouldn't be the only yardstick of "peaceful".
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Was there direct physical violence - not exactly. But that's shouldn't be the only yardstick of "peaceful".
What other measurements are you including here?
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So have we discussed the cohort study of 12M people who had covid and their massively increased risk factors for cardiovascular diseases yet?
As many of you know, my 52 year old sister died in December from what appeared to be a heart attack. The diagnosis on her death certificate was pulmonary embolism but an autopsy was never done so the final diagnosis was based on her symptoms prior to her death and the info from the paramedics who were trying to revive her. As far as we know, she never had Covid. She had multiple tests - maybe even half a dozen - in the months leading up to her death. But she could've had Covid in the early days and had been minimally symptomatic or completely asymptomatic. She was semi-cautious about exposure TBH. She had kids she let play with other kids in the neighborhood and my brother-in-law continued to work in sales and often was exposed to many people in a day. At any rate, I'm very sensitive to these findings and will be for some time, I'm sure. IMO it should be of concern for anyone who has had Covid - maybe even for those of us who have not (could we have had asymptomatic Covid?) Watch for cardiovascular symptoms. If you or your loved one has symptoms, don't shrug them off.
Here are the bullet points of the article:
Overall, a COVID-19 infection significantly increased the risks of developing various cardiovascular diseases for 12 months afterward compared to individuals who were not infected.
Individuals infected with COVID-19 had a 63% greater risk of developing any of those 20 cardiovascular diseases over the year after infection compared to the uninfected cohort.
The researchers estimated that there were 45 additional individuals with any of those 20 cardiovascular diseases per 1000 people at the end of the year compared to the uninfected cohort.
For heart attack, stroke, and cardiovascular death, those infected with COVID-19 had a 55% higher risk compared to the control groups.
There were 23 extra cases of heart attack, stroke, and cardiovascular death per 1000 compared to controls.
Veterans with COVID-19 had a 72% higher risk of developing heart failure in the 12 months following their infection compared to the control cohorts.
Infected veterans also had a range of 53-84% greater risk of developing one of the five arrhythmias compared to the control groups.
Individuals who had COVID-19 had a 71% higher risk of developing atrial fibrillation.
Individuals who had COVID-19 had a 52% greater risk of stroke, 63% higher risk of heart attack, 300% higher risk of pulmonary embolism.
And here is something very important — individuals who had COVID-19 had a 500 times higher risk of myocarditis compared to the control group. The researchers did two additional analyses to eliminate any possibility that vaccination status was a confounding variable.
The researchers also divided the study population into subgroups based on age, race, sex, obesity, smoking, hypertension, diabetes, chronic kidney disease, hyperlipidemia, and cardiovascular disease, in an attempt to rule out other confounding variables. The study authors concluded that the higher risks of cardiovascular outcomes were “evident in all subgroups.”
The researchers also found that the cardiovascular risks “were also evident in people without any cardiovascular disease before exposure to COVID-19, providing evidence that these risks might manifest even in people at low risk of cardiovascular disease.”
The researchers also examined cohorts based on care settings — not hospitalized, hospitalized, and intesive care. They found that although risks increased with the level of care, they found higher risks of cardiovascular disease even in those who never needed hospitalization before being infected.
One concern, addressed by the authors, of this study is that it is a somewhat biased population — Veterans Administration patients tend to be older, male, and white. However, the data did not find any reduction in risk when examining subgroups that elminated these issues.
Link to the summation: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/covid-causes-substantial-long-term-cardiovascular-risks-get-the-vaccine/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork&fbclid=IwAR1axq8-7xpylDI_tAPFsEcvJ6mfYmvUS_GLK4xZJ5w35OglJINyNoG6z2o
Link to the study: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01689-3
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Some weaknesses in that study are addressed in the link below. But unlike the article author I think the study does have some ominous implications and to your point is something personally and societally should be monitored.
https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/long-term-cardiovascular-complications?utm_source=url
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Some weaknesses in that study are addressed in the link below. But unlike the article author I think the study does have some ominous implications and to your point is something personally and societally should be monitored.
https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/long-term-cardiovascular-complications?utm_source=url
I am a long term follower of Vinay Prasad and have posted articles authored by him in this thread before. I respect him a great deal. I was aware of his views on the study weaknesses. I am also very much aware of his constant harping (and agree with him) on the need for more and more research. Your link is in no way a surprise to me. I appreciate you posting it. And if you don't already, I highly recommend his podcast with Dr. Zubin Damania "The VPZD show."
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Some weaknesses in that study are addressed in the link below. But unlike the article author I think the study does have some ominous implications and to your point is something personally and societally should be monitored.
https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/long-term-cardiovascular-complications?utm_source=url
I am a long term follower of Vinay Prasad and have posted articles authored by him in this thread before. I respect him a great deal. I was aware of his views on the study weaknesses. I am also very much aware of his constant harping (and agree with him) on the need for more and more research. Your link is in no way a surprise to me. I appreciate you posting it. And if you don't already, I highly recommend his podcast with Dr. Zubin Damania "The VPZD show."
Interesting I didn't even know that existed. Might do so thank you.
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Was there direct physical violence - not exactly. But that's shouldn't be the only yardstick of "peaceful".
What other measurements are you including here?
Completely choking off the downtown core
Harassing citizens and businesses
Defacing national monuments
Polluting the air
Noise pollution from the truck horns including overnight
Property damage
Threats to politicians and the Prime Minister “catch a bullet” being a phrase the chief organizer used
Concealed weapons
Numerous bylaw infractions (erecting structures, unsafe fuel storage among others)
General lawlessness
Just cuz they say it’s peaceful, while blowing up bouncy castles for all the children they brought with them, doesn’t make it so.
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Was there direct physical violence - not exactly. But that's shouldn't be the only yardstick of "peaceful".
What other measurements are you including here?
Completely choking off the downtown core
Harassing citizens and businesses
Defacing national monuments
Polluting the air
Noise pollution from the truck horns including overnight
Property damage
Threats to politicians and the Prime Minister “catch a bullet” being a phrase the chief organizer used
Concealed weapons
Numerous bylaw infractions (erecting structures, unsafe fuel storage among others)
General lawlessness
Just cuz they say it’s peaceful, while blowing up bouncy castles for all the children they brought with them, doesn’t make it so.
Sounds like you're describing the CHAZ occupiers of Portland. Is there a difference between the two occupying protests. And don't forget about Occupy Wall Street.
The point of protests is to get others to notice and take action. It's the outcome of silencing and ignoring people.
There was also the Dakota Access Pipeline protest where the officers sprayed them with water during the cold winter weather.
What this tells me is that the authorities need to get off their high horse and start listening to the people. Unless, they do have an agenda and the outcome is not what we the people are expecting.
Just like people fear the future of possible outcomes from Covid. So too are people fearing the future of the possible outcomes of these mandates and orders, designed to control the populace.
Fear is what drives actions and the defense mechanisms of humans. And that threat is the threat of one's livelihood and sustainability.
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Just cuz they say it’s peaceful, while blowing up bouncy castles for all the children they brought with them, doesn’t make it so.
To go through line by line:
Completely choking off the downtown core - I have mixed opinions on this and have heard contradicting information about levels of access to the protest are (have heard that there are paths for, say, Emergency Vehicles to go through). But that aside, that doesn't mean it isn't peaceful
Harassing citizens and businesses - Want more evidence on this. Harassments has become a meaningless word. Stories? Is this something that happens often? If you have a protest of 20 people and one person there gets into a fight, there's a problem. If you have thousands/hundreds of people somewhere and you hear sporadic stories of bad behavior, you can't let the actions of a few characterize the whole
Defacing national monuments - Very skeptical of this claim. There was some war memorial that the protesters were supposedly defacing then the video comes out and it's fine and they're shoveling snow off of it
Polluting the air - Irrelevant
Noise pollution from the truck horns including overnight - While funny I agree this was obnoxious I think the court was right to tell them to knock it off
Property damage - Need documentary evidence of this or at least some stories I can put into a broader context
Threats to politicians and the Prime Minister “catch a bullet” being a phrase the chief organizer used - Do not agree with this rhetoric but it is rhetoric and not an imminent threat of violence
Concealed weapons - I believe the right to keep and bear arms is absolute. I know concealed weapons are illegal in Canada and personally think weapons at a protest are bad idea, but to me it is not lacking in peacefulness
Numerous bylaw infractions (erecting structures, unsafe fuel storage among others) - I don't know how this is unpeaceful. The unsafe fuel storage might be somewhat of an issue depending on the risks they are creating
General lawlessness - Too vague
To get at some more general points/my own biases:
- I know you were mentioning the word occupation earlier. I think this usage of wording is very risky. As you can label any peaceful protest an occupation and use the police to clear it. Doing this effectively makes peaceful protest illegal unless the government approves it
- In general this kind of public... rowdiness doesn't affect me that much on a personal level. For some reason I leave near residences where people either shoot guns or blow up firecrackers late at night. Hasn't happened for a while (I guess Winter) but I just live with it. When Holidays happen that involve fireworks happen around here people pop off and I've never seen it fit to file a noise complaint. Just don't see the need to involve the state in people doing what they do. Perhaps though if it were ongoing for multiple weeks I'd feel different
- Back in 2011, when the Occupy Wall Street protests were happening, based on what I know, clearing them out was similarly wrong to do. God forbid bank executives be inconvenienced even slightly
- It's not like anyone is perfectly consistent on this including me. By nature I really hate people protesting on roads, as everyone needs said roads. While I'm not sure the Ottawa protest is quite removing access to public spaces in the way that its detractors claim, on some fundamental level it still bothers me. So then I have to go back and think, well, if I think the police are wrong to break this up, then what else might they be wrong to break up that I agree with less. If we say protesting on the road means it's illegal, that's something a government can very easily selectively enforce
- To bring this back to the overall point of this thread and less about the abstract politics of protesting in general - Discussions about COVID and how to best manage COVID do not supersede peoples' basic rights. This is one of the reasons I think it's important to be more realistic about the consequences of COVID, not being so trusting of authority, and our lack of ability to control it. Fear, powerful authority, and an over-optimistic idea of what's within our control all lead to doing things that are very bad. What's happening in Canada shows this is not some abstract fear
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The point of protests is to get others to notice and take action. It's the outcome of silencing and ignoring people.
And again, this is how conflicts in society are resolved without violence. You can't ban people from major social media platforms, choke their finances, and ban protesting and then wonder why politics has become increasingly divisive. Implicit in that line of thinking is that there is some group of people who are just irrational, should not be allowed to organize, and need to shut up. This will never happen and should never happen.
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Completely choking off the downtown core
Harassing citizens and businesses
Defacing national monuments
Polluting the air
Noise pollution from the truck horns including overnight
Property damage
Threats to politicians and the Prime Minister “catch a bullet” being a phrase the chief organizer used
Concealed weapons
Numerous bylaw infractions (erecting structures, unsafe fuel storage among others)
General lawlessness
That sounds like an ordinary Tuesday in Seattle.
I am all for protesting, but I don't care who you are or what your cause is, get the fuck off the roads.
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Completely choking off the downtown core
Harassing citizens and businesses
Defacing national monuments
Polluting the air
Noise pollution from the truck horns including overnight
Property damage
Threats to politicians and the Prime Minister “catch a bullet” being a phrase the chief organizer used
Concealed weapons
Numerous bylaw infractions (erecting structures, unsafe fuel storage among others)
General lawlessness
That sounds like an ordinary Tuesday in Seattle.
I am all for protesting, but I don't care who you are or what your cause is, get the fuck off the roads.
Why not be like that one guy who rammed down protestors blocking the road?
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@Reapsta. You clearly have your sources you will believe, and I if I as a Canadian who has been following this daily for the last 23 days, and who knows people with first hand knowledge, is someone you’re going to contest each and every point, you’re obviously dug in with your tribe. Not interested in giving you more data points to contest. You’ve obviously done your own research, and drawn your own conclusions. To characterize this as “rowdiness” is a clear demonstration of ignorance, or hard core bias. I don’t care which; you’ve shown your hand, and there’s no useful discourse to be had here.
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Completely choking off the downtown core
Harassing citizens and businesses
Defacing national monuments
Polluting the air
Noise pollution from the truck horns including overnight
Property damage
Threats to politicians and the Prime Minister “catch a bullet” being a phrase the chief organizer used
Concealed weapons
Numerous bylaw infractions (erecting structures, unsafe fuel storage among others)
General lawlessness
That sounds like an ordinary Tuesday in Seattle.
I am all for protesting, but I don't care who you are or what your cause is, get the fuck off the roads.
Why not be like that one guy who rammed down protestors blocking the road?
You talking Charlottesville?
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I am all for protesting, but I don't care who you are or what your cause is, get the fuck off the roads.
Amen to this. The minute you start blocking traffic, threatening motorists, etc., you become just a disruptive asshole, not a good-hearted protestor.
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Completely choking off the downtown core
Harassing citizens and businesses
Defacing national monuments
Polluting the air
Noise pollution from the truck horns including overnight
Property damage
Threats to politicians and the Prime Minister “catch a bullet” being a phrase the chief organizer used
Concealed weapons
Numerous bylaw infractions (erecting structures, unsafe fuel storage among others)
General lawlessness
That sounds like an ordinary Tuesday in Seattle.
I am all for protesting, but I don't care who you are or what your cause is, get the fuck off the roads.
Why not be like that one guy who rammed down protestors blocking the road?
You talking Charlottesville?
That and many others...
That made me type into YouTube, "running down protestors on roads" and I found a lot of news stories of different incidents of people doing this.
And I also found this Vice news story of an Oklahoma law...
https://youtu.be/DsSt2sd-f-c
And here's one from the occupation of Seattle.
https://youtu.be/KxeNxaJqPbE
So what is the difference of these protests and the mandate protest in Canada?
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Not speaking on Canada since they're under a different rule of law, but in the US you have a right to peaceably assemble to redress grievances. I'd say it's up to the govt and to the collective population to decide what defines peaceable. In the case of the Canadian protest, they didn't qualify
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Not speaking on Canada since they're under a different rule of law, but in the US you have a right to peaceably assemble to redress grievances. I'd say it's up to the govt and to the collective population to decide what defines peaceable. In the case of the Canadian protest, they didn't qualify
Didn't qualify under what determination? It shouldn't matter, the right to protest applies to any human being. And this isn't based on a human law. It's human nature to protest when you feel silenced and ignored. How do children get attention, they cry or act out, this is called "cry for attention".
These behaviors of protesting are how humans handle the situation of being ignored. Or as Stadler puts it, having enough of being treated as the lesser out group, while being excluded from the better in group.
Authoritarianism is fascinating, only due to how it's based on human behaviors and the desire for power and control.
What I do not like is how the authority utilizes Detrimental situations for their own beneficial gain. And this is something that has occurred throughout human history in every culture of the world. I would even say that is the foundation of what history is.
And there are humans out there who are tired of living under the current system of society. They're awakening to the realization of how the world is run and what our sustainability is reliant upon. So they're voicing their concerns and one way is to gather and protest for the world to hear. But based on many different variables, the concerns of the people vary.
Horton heard the whos and had to convince the others to hear the whos. Their needs to be a leader who is the Horton for the people.
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I am all for protesting, but I don't care who you are or what your cause is, get the fuck off the roads.
Amen to this. The minute you start blocking traffic, threatening motorists, etc., you become just a disruptive asshole, not a good-hearted protestor.
This is where my comments are coming from. You can protest all you like at a school board meeting but the minute you rip people's mask off or threaten their lives then you are trying to restrict others freedoms and you are disrupting their lives and you should be stopped cold in your tracks.
So if you don't want to Vax then don't but don't bitch about wearing a mask on an airplane or when places of education or businesses require masks. They have freedoms too.
It's not that hard folks........
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I am all for protesting, but I don't care who you are or what your cause is, get the fuck off the roads.
A problem though is - If you live in a city, is a protest even possible without blocking the roads?
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I am all for protesting, but I don't care who you are or what your cause is, get the fuck off the roads.
A problem though is - If you live in a city, is a protest even possible without blocking the roads?
Yes.
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Their called sidewalks.
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No, the truckers just don't want to live under a social credit system linked to a QR code under the guise of public health, but many people are too ignorant to understand this.
This post (and your subsequent ones) remind me of the old axiom...
(https://www.brainyquote.com/photos_tr/en/m/marktwain/103535/marktwain1-2x.jpg)
You clearly have no knowledge about what those protests were really about, so pretty please, with a cherry on top, ferme la bouche.
@Reapsta.... the Ottawa event was far from a peaceful protest. I have many colleagues who work in Ottawa, so I'm not solely relying on media reports when I say with absolute confidence, this was more of an occupation than a protest. It doesn't take too much hunting to provide proof of the that. Was there direct physical violence - not exactly. But that's shouldn't be the only yardstick of "peaceful".
This post (and your subsequent ones) remind me of the old axiom...
(https://quotefancy.com/media/wallpaper/3840x2160/1715490-Mark-Twain-Quote-It-s-easier-to-fool-people-than-to-convince-them.jpg)
I have been following the Freedom Convoy since its inception and watching live streams on the ground and video updates from the organizers. It was a peaceful gathering to protest the government's ongoing draconian Covid restrictions and end all mandates. To say that it was about anything other than that indicates either stupidity or willful ignorance.
I don't listen to the demands of authoritarians, so I will continue to speak out against what I know to be wrong.
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I have been following the Freedom Convoy since its inception and watching live streams on the ground and video updates from the organizers. It was a peaceful gathering to protest the government's ongoing draconian Covid restrictions and end all mandates.
And that about sums it up. You've been following the propagandist anarchists that that feed your own echo chamber. Were there some peaceful participants/activities. Sure.... but I'll also note that "peaceful" =\= "lawful". To call it a peaceful protest is viewing it through your own bias and anti-gov't lens - which is fine... you do you. But embrace your inner anarchy if this is going to be your stance. Post and defend their manifesto. Quote Pat King from his videos. Acknowledge that they seized public property for 22 days.
To say that it was about anything other than that indicates either stupidity or willful ignorance.
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F1401.gif&hash=7c1f0d7de4d5eb082a45e472164309180dfebf18)
(https://quotefancy.com/media/wallpaper/3840x2160/1715490-Mark-Twain-Quote-It-s-easier-to-fool-people-than-to-convince-them.jpg)
See, now you're getting it!
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Their called sidewalks.
Very cramped!
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How inconvenient for them. Better to inconvenience others. :)
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Their called sidewalks.
Very cramped!
And uneven!
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Their called sidewalks.
Very cramped!
And uneven!
If you had enough people on the sidewalks, they'd become effectively unwalkable!
How inconvenient for them. Better to inconvenience others. :)
If it's not inconvenient, it's a crappy protest.
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At least in the city there are alternative routes non-protesters can take. One of the Canadian protests was clogging a main artery between US and Canada. Or was I reading propaganda? ???
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Man, can't believe this thread is going to put me on the side of the freedom truckers.
If the Truckers want to do a little Civil Disobedience, that's their call. If they choose to do it in a way that disrupts daily life, the Government can either remove them (forcibly) or decide to back down on mandates that, quite honestly, don't even make sense from my point of view.
The continued disruption caused by the protests is not the fault of the protestors, but it's the fault of a Government that does absolutely nothing but sit on its hands and wait to see which side public opinion favors for the next election.
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At least in the city there are alternative routes non-protesters can take. One of the Canadian protests was clogging a main artery between US and Canada. Or was I reading propaganda? ???
I believe you are correct.
In some broader moral sense, the border blockade might be defensible, but it's a complicated issue that's better sorted out in P/R. No interest in trying to defend it here.
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you know what I kind preferred it when everyone ignored Canada most of the time
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Man, can't believe this thread is going to put me on the side of the freedom truckers.
Here’s the thing, by the time it got to Ottawa, it was no longer a protest about van mandates for truckers crossing the border. This “movement” was co-opted by Canada’s version of the alt right. It was just aided along by a couple dozen big rigs that started the idea, then a couple more dozen truckers who piled on to the “cause”. This was never solely a protest by truckers.
And again, this was far more than civil disobedience. As for forcibly removing them, that was last weekend at the Ambassador Bridge; and this weekend in Ottawa.
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So I woke up this morning congested, with a brutal headache and backache. Of course in these days my mind immediately goes to covid panic mode.. Bust out the rapid test and it comes up negative. Take another a few hours later, negative again. No fever, and I can still taste and smell (especially the atrocious BO of the dude I walked by in the store yikes!!)
It occurs to me, this is the first legit cold I've had since December 2019,and it happened in the first week of being unmasked.
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Oh goodie :P
First we complain about supply chain issues! Then we incite people to sabotage the supply chain!
And then we try to figure out how to spell the months of the year. GENIUS!
(https://i.imgur.com/juCFNz2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CR6uio1.jpg)
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:lol
I just can't...I'm going back to my soup, 7up and binge watching Punisher. Forgot how relaxing being sick is.
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So I woke up this morning congested, with a brutal headache and backache. Of course in these days my mind immediately goes to covid panic mode.. Bust out the rapid test and it comes up negative. Take another a few hours later, negative again. No fever, and I can still taste and smell (especially the atrocious BO of the dude I walked by in the store yikes!!)
It occurs to me, this is the first legit cold I've had since December 2019,and it happened in the first week of being unmasked.
I meant to reply to your post. You might want to retest again in a couple of days. I know a number of people who tested negative at the onset of symptoms and then tested positive 2-3 days later.
In any case, I hope you feel better soon. :heart
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So I woke up this morning congested, with a brutal headache and backache. Of course in these days my mind immediately goes to covid panic mode.. Bust out the rapid test and it comes up negative. Take another a few hours later, negative again. No fever, and I can still taste and smell (especially the atrocious BO of the dude I walked by in the store yikes!!)
It occurs to me, this is the first legit cold I've had since December 2019,and it happened in the first week of being unmasked.
I meant to reply to your post. You might want to retest again in a couple of days. I know a number of people who tested negative at the onset of symptoms and then tested positive 2-3 days later.
In any case, I hope you feel better soon. :heart
Oh I definitely will, got 6 more tests here, and my work will test tuesday upon entry. My symptoms are already lightening up just with good rest, so hopefully it's just a mild bug. Thanks!!
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Keep us posted! Am I in the growing minority of people who have never taken a Covid test? My wife is stockpiling them here. Our 10 year old will sneeze a couple times and she will give her a test.
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Keep us posted! Am I in the growing minority of people who have never taken a Covid test? My wife is stockpiling them here. Our 10 year old will sneeze a couple times and she will give her a test.
Took another tonight, negative again. That combined with no fever, and the fact that my pozole with ghost pepper sauce was delicious and beyond spicy, points to a common cold. I'll test again tomorrow, and Tue am at work, but I think I'm just sick lol.
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Keep us posted! Am I in the growing minority of people who have never taken a Covid test? My wife is stockpiling them here. Our 10 year old will sneeze a couple times and she will give her a test.
I've taken two when New York needed them for travel to and from last year but the thought of using one every time you feel a little congested or similar kind of baffles me. Last month I had a cold which morphed into a sinus infection and everything progressed exactly as it has in the past with me but I still got the "did you test yourself?" whenever I mentioned it to someone as if what I have could only be Covid and it was some plague level thing. I suppose it's a peace of mind kind of deal but unless I'm forced to I don't see the need to take a test.
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Keep us posted! Am I in the growing minority of people who have never taken a Covid test? My wife is stockpiling them here. Our 10 year old will sneeze a couple times and she will give her a test.
I've taken two when New York needed them for travel to and from last year but the thought of using one every time you feel a little congested or similar kind of baffles me. Last month I had a cold which morphed into a sinus infection and everything progressed exactly as it has in the past with me but I still got the "did you test yourself?" whenever I mentioned it to someone as if what I have could only be Covid and it was some plague level thing. I suppose it's a peace of mind kind of deal but unless I'm forced to I don't see the need to take a test.
I don't get it either. My son has asthma. Am I supposed to stick one of these things up his nose every day?
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I have been following the Freedom Convoy since its inception and watching live streams on the ground and video updates from the organizers. It was a peaceful gathering to protest the government's ongoing draconian Covid restrictions and end all mandates.
And that about sums it up. You've been following the propagandist anarchists that that feed your own echo chamber. Were there some peaceful participants/activities. Sure.... but I'll also note that "peaceful" =\= "lawful". To call it a peaceful protest is viewing it through your own bias and anti-gov't lens - which is fine... you do you. But embrace your inner anarchy if this is going to be your stance. Post and defend their manifesto. Quote Pat King from his videos. Acknowledge that they seized public property for 22 days.
To say that it was about anything other than that indicates either stupidity or willful ignorance.
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F1401.gif&hash=7c1f0d7de4d5eb082a45e472164309180dfebf18)
(https://quotefancy.com/media/wallpaper/3840x2160/1715490-Mark-Twain-Quote-It-s-easier-to-fool-people-than-to-convince-them.jpg)
See, now you're getting it!
How is viewing raw, live footage of what was actually happening on the ground in Ottawa and listening to what the organizers had to say (something that Trudeau could have easily done) considered "following propagandist anarchists"? What should I have done to educate myself on the convoy, listen to corporate legacy media?
How about acknowledging that the government has seized everyone's LIVES for two years?! I'm sorry the honking upset you.
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Our lives have been SEIZED??
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Our lives have been SEIZED??
:omg: OMG
Get the torches and pitchforks!! :biggrin:
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Our lives have been SEIZED??
No. You weren't paying attention. He said our LIVES have been seized. Big difference.
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:lol
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Thanks Bosk for the facts!
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I am all for protesting, but I don't care who you are or what your cause is, get the fuck off the roads.
Amen to this. The minute you start blocking traffic, threatening motorists, etc., you become just a disruptive asshole, not a good-hearted protestor.
This is where my comments are coming from. You can protest all you like at a school board meeting but the minute you rip people's mask off or threaten their lives then you are trying to restrict others freedoms and you are disrupting their lives and you should be stopped cold in your tracks.
So if you don't want to Vax then don't but don't bitch about wearing a mask on an airplane or when places of education or businesses require masks. They have freedoms too.
It's not that hard folks........
So.... it's stepping over the line to rip off someone else's mask, but not stepping over the line for them to demand (that is to say, enforce consequences for failure to perform) you wear one? So really only one side's freedom matters there...
(Quick note: no one has the right to be "free from virus" as far as I know. The U.S. Constitution, for example, promises the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, not " a viral free experience at the local strip mall").
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So I tested again this morning, and it came back positive. Motherfucker, looks like a paid week off for RJ.
I guess that's why we vigilantly test, I could've assumed I was fine today, and gone around my town being a little plague spreader, but took a cautionary stance instead.
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So I tested again this morning, and it came back positive. Motherfucker, looks like a paid week off for RJ.
I guess that's why we vigilantly test, I could've assumed I was fine today, and gone around my town being a little plague spreader, but took a cautionary stance instead.
I'm sorry to hear that, RJ. I hope you feel better soon.
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So I tested again this morning, and it came back positive. Motherfucker, looks like a paid week off for RJ.
I guess that's why we vigilantly test, I could've assumed I was fine today, and gone around my town being a little plague spreader, but took a cautionary stance instead.
I'm shocked I haven't contracted it yet. I was sick once, but was negative and found out it was a viral infection that was not covid.
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I know I probably don't need to say this, but be careful and stay on top of your symptoms, bro. I'm glad it is feeling relatively mild, and in all likelihood it will stay that way, but I know you have some underlying stuff that could potentially cause problems, so PLEASE stay on top of it and stay safe.
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I know I probably don't need to say this, but be careful and stay on top of your symptoms, bro. I'm glad it is feeling relatively mild, and in all likelihood it will stay that way, but I know you have some underlying stuff that could potentially cause problems, so PLEASE stay on top of it and stay safe.
Absolutely.
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So I tested again this morning, and it came back positive. Motherfucker, looks like a paid week off for RJ.
I guess that's why we vigilantly test, I could've assumed I was fine today, and gone around my town being a little plague spreader, but took a cautionary stance instead.
I'm shocked I haven't contracted it yet. I was sick once, but was negative and found out it was a viral infection that was not covid.
I kind of feel the same way. Over the last few months, I've taken more tests than I can count (including the more accurate PCR tests) but all negative. I have actually felt really good over the last month and a half or so, so have only taken a handful of tests, but still.
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I kind of feel the same way. Over the last few months, I've taken more tests than I can count (including the more accurate PCR tests) but all negative. I have actually felt really good over the last month and a half or so, so have only taken a handful of tests, but still.
Why so many tests?
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I know I probably don't need to say this, but be careful and stay on top of your symptoms, bro. I'm glad it is feeling relatively mild, and in all likelihood it will stay that way, but I know you have some underlying stuff that could potentially cause problems, so PLEASE stay on top of it and stay safe.
Indeed. Be well.
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So I tested again this morning, and it came back positive. Motherfucker, looks like a paid week off for RJ.
I guess that's why we vigilantly test, I could've assumed I was fine today, and gone around my town being a little plague spreader, but took a cautionary stance instead.
I'm shocked I haven't contracted it yet. I was sick once, but was negative and found out it was a viral infection that was not covid.
I kind of feel the same way. Over the last few months, I've taken more tests than I can count (including the more accurate PCR tests) but all negative. I have actually felt really good over the last month and a half or so, so have only taken a handful of tests, but still.
I am a broken record, but since most things have reopened after winter 2020/2021 (the last time a lot of us were on strictly serious social shutdown "I'm not seeing anyone for any reason" mode), it is in fact still possible to get a flu, or a cold! I would know, I tested negative four times for four different newly occurring symptoms/illnesses, including one that EXTREMELY kicked my ass and had me convinced it would be COVID, from late November to mid-January. Then I got the thing too lol, at least that one went well.
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I am another of the ( suppose) few who haven't ever taken a COVID test.
This is the longest stretch I've ever had in my life of not feeling sick. Which means I've probably had COVID asymptomatically 6 or 7 times lol.
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I've taken one covid test during this whole ordeal. I hosted a poker game a few weeks back and woke up the next morning feeling the worst I have since maybe the flu a couple years ago. I got my CVS thermometer and it read 93.4. I got one of my meat probes and it gave me the same reading. My head hurt so bad, and I couldn't swallow anything without puking it up violently within just a few seconds.
Showed up negative for Covid and was fine by 9pm that evening (though dehydrated as hell). Must have just been a stomach thing, or just the strangest hangover I've ever experienced.
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Chino, you are not a brisket.
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Back when I found it more of a concern a local gas station I frequented was closed due to a COVID test among its staff. Went and got a test to be sure.
Have not gotten one since then. Found out I had it when I had an antibody test done.
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I kind of feel the same way. Over the last few months, I've taken more tests than I can count (including the more accurate PCR tests) but all negative. I have actually felt really good over the last month and a half or so, so have only taken a handful of tests, but still.
Why so many tests?
"An abundance of caution". I was traveling, including flying, a lot, both for work and to see my parents (in Florida) and felt obliged to test after each trip. With parents in their '80s at one end, and young children (my step son has a 4 year old and a 6 month old).
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I am all for protesting, but I don't care who you are or what your cause is, get the fuck off the roads.
Amen to this. The minute you start blocking traffic, threatening motorists, etc., you become just a disruptive asshole, not a good-hearted protestor.
This is where my comments are coming from. You can protest all you like at a school board meeting but the minute you rip people's mask off or threaten their lives then you are trying to restrict others freedoms and you are disrupting their lives and you should be stopped cold in your tracks.
So if you don't want to Vax then don't but don't bitch about wearing a mask on an airplane or when places of education or businesses require masks. They have freedoms too.
It's not that hard folks........
So.... it's stepping over the line to rip off someone else's mask, but not stepping over the line for them to demand (that is to say, enforce consequences for failure to perform) you wear one? So really only one side's freedom matters there...
(Quick note: no one has the right to be "free from virus" as far as I know. The U.S. Constitution, for example, promises the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, not " a viral free experience at the local strip mall").
Yeah - exactly!
What about violence do you not understand?
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I am all for protesting, but I don't care who you are or what your cause is, get the fuck off the roads.
Amen to this. The minute you start blocking traffic, threatening motorists, etc., you become just a disruptive asshole, not a good-hearted protestor.
This is where my comments are coming from. You can protest all you like at a school board meeting but the minute you rip people's mask off or threaten their lives then you are trying to restrict others freedoms and you are disrupting their lives and you should be stopped cold in your tracks.
So if you don't want to Vax then don't but don't bitch about wearing a mask on an airplane or when places of education or businesses require masks. They have freedoms too.
It's not that hard folks........
So.... it's stepping over the line to rip off someone else's mask, but not stepping over the line for them to demand (that is to say, enforce consequences for failure to perform) you wear one? So really only one side's freedom matters there...
(Quick note: no one has the right to be "free from virus" as far as I know. The U.S. Constitution, for example, promises the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, not " a viral free experience at the local strip mall").
Yeah - exactly!
What about violence do you not understand?
I think we're clearly talking past each other. I saw no violence in merely "threatening someone's life" as opposed to an actual battery. If that is an assault on someone's freedom, then so is threatening their liberty. If you're literally talking touching someone, there's a difference there, for sure. I've always said, everything I say is valid UP TO a provable crime occurs.
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Also, if you make a law to do something, by definition it is violence. If you don't comply, the cops are coming with their guns.
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NJ governor announced today that March 4th will be the final weekly Covid briefing as we transition to the new normal where covid reporting isn't needed weekly. That date also coincides with the 2 year anniversary of the first confirmed covid case in the state. What a wild and sad 2 years it's been.
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I'm also in the minority that have not been COVID tested... I did Antibody test prior to receiving the vax just to see if I had the Antibodies as I was uncommonly sick for three days at the beach in Oct 2019 (weirdest experience I've ever had).
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In our city and county, mask mandates fall by the wayside as of this coming Monday, since case counts have fallen quite a bit.
I hope it doesn't come back to bite us in the ass like it did the last time they let the mandates go. I really do.
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That's my fear as well. But I am a little more hopeful this time. Just have to wait and see.
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If it comes back, it's not likely (IMO) due to loosening of the restrictions but due to a new variant.
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Just because mandates fall doesn't mean you have to take yours off.
Signed-someone who caught covid on day one of mandates being dropped :p
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If it comes back, it's not likely (IMO) due to loosening of the restrictions but due to a new variant.
To this I only say BA.2.
Just because mandates fall doesn't mean you have to take yours off.
Signed-someone who caught covid on day one of mandates being dropped :p
I'll still be masking indoors in populated places (I'm looking at you, Costco) for quite some time, and will probably break it out again in the usual cold/flu season. That's prolly gonna be my new norm for at least 1 more year - and I doubt I'll be the only one.
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If it comes back, it's not likely (IMO) due to loosening of the restrictions but due to a new variant.
To this I only say BA.2.
BA.2 has been around too long for me to think of it as a concern. I think we would have seen more upticks since it's discovery a couple months ago. I mean, it only took a few weeks from when omnicron was first discovered to it becoming an issue and BA.2 has been advertised as more contagious so I feel like, and I could be wrong, if it was a major variant of concern, we would know by now. It may also just be that it being a subvariant of omni that natural infection from omni also protects you from BA.2 (I have no idea, just thinking aloud if that could be the case)
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If it comes back, it's not likely (IMO) due to loosening of the restrictions but due to a new variant.
Given variants are more likely the more infected people there are, they are correlated factors.
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If it comes back, it's not likely (IMO) due to loosening of the restrictions but due to a new variant.
Given variants are more likely the more infected people there are, they are correlated factors.
Yes I can see that, but we aren't going to go to 0 infections and we can't control everyone. We have to accept as the NJ governor called it in his announcement today the "new normal" where covid isn't going away and we can't have restrictions and mandates forever.
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So just an update...all in all my covid experience has been rather bland. Monday was the worst with fever, chills, and brutal bodyaches, but the fever broke that night, and now I'm just resigned to a good sore throat and getting tired easily. Looking to be back at work on Monday if everything goes as planned, not sure how it's gonna pan out though since we're supposed to get tested upon entry, but my boss assured me there's different protocol for anyone who recently tested positive and went through quarantine. Very thankful for the vaccine, being over 50 and a type 2,this could've gotten really ugly, and I could see exactly where it would've gotten ugly on that Monday when my breathing was tight.
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It's not too often one sees the word "bland" from a chef, and is very happy about it
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If it comes back, it's not likely (IMO) due to loosening of the restrictions but due to a new variant.
Given variants are more likely the more infected people there are, they are correlated factors.
CORRELATED, not CAUSAL. I'm cool with however this plays out, as long as 1) the pandemic isn't further weaponized to achieve non-COVID goals, and 2) we remember that COVID's gonna do what COVID's gonna do regardless of what we humans do. If you want to improve your odds, by all means you should be able to without rancor, abuse or ridicule. If you DON'T want to improve your odds, by all means you should be able to without rancor, abuse, or ridicule. I get that "masks are not for you, they're for everyone else", but as I've said numerous times, we don't have a fundamental right to be optimized against viral infection.
Me? I have a mask with me wherever I go; I'm also very cool with holding it up and saying "yes or no?" and going with what makes my immediate company comfortable. I'm decent at reading rooms, and I'm not a "fuck you I do what I WANT" kind of guy, so it will be case-by-case no doubt.
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CORRELATED, not CAUSAL.
I've worked in science for two decades and have 70+ papers under my belt in the field of correlation spectroscopy. Can we work on the assumption that I am aware of the difference?
I'm cool with however this plays out, as long as 1) the pandemic isn't further weaponized to achieve non-COVID goals, and 2) we remember that COVID's gonna do what COVID's gonna do regardless of what we humans do.
How well it can do it is very much dependent on what humans do though. It's much less likely to evolve the fewer people who have it, and the more of those people who are vaccinated. Otherwise medicine and public health measures would be worthless endeavours.
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we remember that COVID's gonna do what COVID's gonna do regardless of what we humans do.
I really don't understand this statement. We're the hosts. We enable the virus. We move the virus. We are the vessel by which it travels, spreads, and grows. We're very much in a crucial part of what COVID's gonna do.
Though, XJ said it better.
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CORRELATED, not CAUSAL.
I've worked in science for two decades and have 70+ papers under my belt in the field of correlation spectroscopy. Can we work on the assumption that I am aware of the difference?
Of course you are. Not everyone else is, though. That's plain just by reading this thread. And it's not a criticism, necessarily, just a comment.
I'm cool with however this plays out, as long as 1) the pandemic isn't further weaponized to achieve non-COVID goals, and 2) we remember that COVID's gonna do what COVID's gonna do regardless of what we humans do.
How well it can do it is very much dependent on what humans do though. It's much less likely to evolve the fewer people who have it, and the more of those people who are vaccinated. Otherwise medicine and public health measures would be worthless endeavours.
No doubt, but we North Americans sometimes forget that there are six other continents, and we are only about 580 million out of almost 8 BILLION people on the planet. Not even 10% of the world population. We've seen WILDLY different agendas here in the states when it comes to "what humans do", and those agendas didn't translate into WILDLY different outcomes. In fact, for a long time - up to Omicron - the outcomes were almost identical. You can't find a post in the last five pages (other than mine) that even acknowledges this fact let alone incorporates it into the analysis.
None of this is to say we shouldn't be actively doing our part, but there has to be some understanding of where that part fits in the bigger picture.
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Something no one talks about - Animals can get and spread COVID. Implications should be obvious...
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Something no one talks about - Animals can get and spread COVID. Implications should be obvious...
Go vegetarian?
Sounds good!
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Crap... I just fed my roommate's fish....
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Crap... I just fed my roommate's fish....
To whom?
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My understanding is that while animals can get and transmit covid, they are very unlikely to transmit it to humans. I recall reading of different variants found in deer but they didn't think they posed threats to humans. The CDC website says
At this time, there is no evidence that animals play a significant role in spreading SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, to people.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/animals.html (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/animals.html)
The wording seems to suggest it's possible, but just not very likely. But I guess we can't rule out the possibility of it happening in the future.
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Even if we accept the CDC's take on transmission as true, the other issue is mutation.
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Something no one talks about - Animals can get and spread COVID. Implications should be obvious...
What are the obvious implications?
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Something no one talks about - Animals can get and spread COVID. Implications should be obvious...
What are the obvious implications?
Transmission/mutation to humans
Not in our control
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Something no one talks about - Animals can get and spread COVID. Implications should be obvious...
Yep. Don't do this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLmQTIS9Rv4
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Something no one talks about - Animals can get and spread COVID. Implications should be obvious...
What are the obvious implications?
Transmission/mutation to humans
Not in our control
Was it ever in our control?
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Something no one talks about - Animals can get and spread COVID. Implications should be obvious...
What are the obvious implications?
Transmission/mutation to humans
Not in our control
Was it ever in our control?
Well, I mean, you know my answer to that I'm sure
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This conversation is getting weird.
Can't we all just get along and disagree with Stadler together?
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This conversation is getting weird.
Can't we all just get along and disagree with Stadler together?
Yeah! :)
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This conversation is getting weird.
Can't we all just get along and disagree with Stadler together?
Yeah! :)
Stadler, personally ending the divisiveness!
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He's also good at grab ass. Trust me.
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He's also good at grab ass. Trust me.
I wear glasses...so I literally paid to read this.
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He's also good at grab ass. Trust me.
I wear glasses...so I literally paid to read this.
And worth every penny, amirite! :) :)
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This conversation is getting weird.
Can't we all just get along and disagree with Stadler together?
Yeah! :)
NO!!!
Am I doing it right?
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a very even handed dive into the topic of vaccines & freedom from the always entertaining and informative Abigail from Philosophy Tube https://youtu.be/Va0RCgbywGc
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Just tested negative for covid...9 day turnaround from initial positive to the negative...fairly painless experience altogether thankfully with no known collateral damage.
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Just tested negative for covid...9 day turnaround from initial positive to the negative...fairly painless experience altogether thankfully with no known collateral damage.
Awesome!
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Just tested negative for covid...9 day turnaround from initial positive to the negative...fairly painless experience altogether thankfully with no known collateral damage.
Awesome!
Especially thankful I didn't get anyone the Sat before I tested, I was at a big AA speaker meeting, maskless, talking and hugging people all around. I started feeling symptoms the next morning. As far as I know, nobody caught it.
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Current situation in my house. My daughter brought home a bad cold last week and was out sick for two days. I now have the cold and took yesterday off of work because I was so miserable. I haven't slept well in 2-3 nights. My daughter then brought home the stomach flu this week and will be out sick for two days again.
Good thing we got rid of the masks and now these other bugs are flying around schools again causing a TON of kids to miss school. The last time we had the stomach flu in the house was January 2020. We went two years without it because the kids had masks on at school.
For the record, I agree with giving it a try without masks and my daughter is so happy about it. But the causation of the cold and stomach flu going around isn't lost on me - those masks did help keep these other viruses at bay, even if Omicron snuck around them.
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275612570_10228529191399507_3799970061743348773_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=5cJOJnslxy0AX_m8kB7&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=00_AT8LuQyAe1Giboow5l3ie_sXAm_DsuuLNBss2-o4v8NXEQ&oe=622F7D7E) (https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275494140_10228529192239528_916404614026387607_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=F5j80kG0JbwAX9Zk39d&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=00_AT8Hl4s8SKR9Yaj2uTVq66ABzZIIErT6p0Q9WjvVmgK1NQ&oe=622E7DEE)
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Current situation in my house. My daughter brought home a bad cold last week and was out sick for two days. I now have the cold and took yesterday off of work because I was so miserable. I haven't slept well in 2-3 nights. My daughter then brought home the stomach flu this week and will be out sick for two days again.
Good thing we got rid of the masks and now these other bugs are flying around schools again causing a TON of kids to miss school. The last time we had the stomach flu in the house was January 2020. We went two years without it because the kids had masks on at school.
For the record, I agree with giving it a try without masks and my daughter is so happy about it. But the causation of the cold and stomach flu going around isn't lost on me - those masks did help keep these other viruses at bay, even if Omicron snuck around them.
That's something we would have had to contend with no matter what. Many peoples' immune systems have gotten a nice long vacation. I feel like this was inevitable. I return to the office next week and I'm anticipating being decently sick at some point within the first month back.
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I know that, and as my favorite comic strip showed, we are back to normal.
I just find it sad that so many parents raged about kids wearing masks, yet they're ok with calling their kids out of school numerous times for illnesses. I hate that my daughter has missed 4 out of 9 school days within the last two weeks. A 50% attendance rate for a few weeks is acceptable and normal as long as they don't have to wear a mask?
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I know that, and as my favorite comic strip showed, we are back to normal.
I just find it sad that so many parents raged about kids wearing masks, yet they're ok with calling their kids out of school numerous times for illnesses. I hate that my daughter has missed 4 out of 9 school days within the last two weeks. A 50% attendance rate for a few weeks is acceptable and normal as long as they don't have to wear a mask?
I don't understand that connection. I never "raged" about kids wearing masks, but I am sort of indifferent to it. I told my kids to "follow the rules", because that's what we do at that age, and my stepson in particular is pretty adamant about wearing them, but honestly, at least here in CT, the administration of the mask policies has been less than scientific (see the Politics thread; I don't agree with DeSantis, but I do know what he means when he says "COVID theater"). And while I would never be "OK" with my kid being home from school sick, I understand the process and realize that being "sick-free" is not a reality, and, in terms of immuno-health, has it's plusses and minuses. I can't speak for all parents any more than you can, but I think reducing it so simply misses some important points and points of view.
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There was definite rage from parents, with lots of school boards having to call the police to their meetings because of threats - on a nationwide level. Watching these board meetings has been fascinating to see the parental behavior.
I followed our local parents in my district pretty closely, who created a Facebook group to coordinate their efforts. While they remained calm when speaking in front of our school board (I do give them a lot of credit for that), their online messaging consists of full-on rage. When our school district wasn't fast enough for them in adjusting their mask policy, they threatened all sorts of action against them. The district asked parents for their patience throughout the process, however, these parents refused to be patient and demanded that they capitulate. A few parents kept the pitchforks out, even after the policy was adjusted, with statements that they will never let this "abuse" happen to their children again. The anger about their children having to wear a paper mask when at school drove them to a fervor. I monitored it just because I didn't want to be dropping off my kid at school and being surprised by a protest or something more serious. Sadly, the BLM riots and January 6th showed us that when enough people on one side of a political belief get worked up enough, they can be driven to take things too far.
Like you, I'm indifferent. When covid numbers were big, I felt like masks were justifiable. They truly have their use to help reduce transmission within a population (in this case, children in a school), and if they didn't work, doctor's wouldn't wear them when performing surgery. Now that covid numbers are a lot less, I agree with the decision to take the masks off.
My point was that it's nonsense to just dismiss what masks do by saying "they don't work." Well gee, the timing on the stomach flu and colds keeping kids home is impeccable. I know we're not going to be illness free, but to sit back and say "masks don't work" and being angry about kids having to wear them....while not being bothered by having your kid miss 50% of their school days over a period of 2 weeks seems ass-backward to me. Heaven forbid your kid have to wear a paper mask at school, but we're perfectly fine with calling them out of school repeatedly because other kids keep getting them sick.
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There was definite rage from parents, with lots of school boards having to call the police to their meetings because of threats - on a nationwide level. Watching these board meetings has been fascinating to see the parental behavior.
I followed our local parents in my district pretty closely, who created a Facebook group to coordinate their efforts. While they remained calm when speaking in front of our school board (I do give them a lot of credit for that), their online messaging consists of full-on rage. When our school district wasn't fast enough for them in adjusting their mask policy, they threatened all sorts of action against them. The district asked parents for their patience throughout the process, however, these parents refused to be patient and demanded that they capitulate. A few parents kept the pitchforks out, even after the policy was adjusted, with statements that they will never let this "abuse" happen to their children again. The anger about their children having to wear a paper mask when at school drove them to a fervor. I monitored it just because I didn't want to be dropping off my kid at school and being surprised by a protest or something more serious. Sadly, the BLM riots and January 6th showed us that when enough people on one side of a political belief get worked up enough, they can be driven to take things too far.
Like you, I'm indifferent. When covid numbers were big, I felt like masks were justifiable. They truly have their use to help reduce transmission within a population (in this case, children in a school), and if they didn't work, doctor's wouldn't wear them when performing surgery. Now that covid numbers are a lot less, I agree with the decision to take the masks off.
My point was that it's nonsense to just dismiss what masks do by saying "they don't work." Well gee, the timing on the stomach flu and colds keeping kids home is impeccable. I know we're not going to be illness free, but to sit back and say "masks don't work" and being angry about kids having to wear them....while not being bothered by having your kid miss 50% of their school days over a period of 2 weeks seems ass-backward to me. Heaven forbid your kid have to wear a paper mask at school, but we're perfectly fine with calling them out of school repeatedly because other kids keep getting them sick.
Certainly, if you've read any of my posts here over the last ten years, you know I agree with that. I think ANY blanket statement like that (in this arena) is likely nonsense. I'm just struggling with the next step; I certainly don't want my kids to be sick. The worst thing in the world is to see your child suffering from a cold, or stomach flu, or something like that. But I have a more macro, philosophical look at things. We don't live in a bubble. We live in the world. I don't WANT my kid to be sick, and I don't WANT my kid to have the experience of leukemia or something like that, but enduring a cold, or a stomach flu for a couple days has, for me, as many potential positives as negatives. I don't feel the trade-offs are such that it makes sense to have our kids wearing masks if the benefit is just fewer incidents of the common cold.
I'm also not too keen on the "timing" argument. There are too many incidents over the last two years that "seem" to make common sense, but with further scrutiny, don't stand up to that. For the longest time, Florida and California had almost diametrically opposed COVID policies, and yet... had almost the same numbers in terms of cases and deaths per capita.
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I'm not sure where you are getting your stats and am not disagreeing with your analysis but wish to point out that Florida has been accused more than once on distributing misleading data that puts them in a 'better' light with regard to cases and deaths. This is just one link. There are others to be looked at using your favorite search engine.
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/11/scicheck-desantis-comments-social-media-posts-mislead-on-covid-19s-toll-in-florida/
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Almost all the data I reference re: COVID cases and deaths are from https://www.worldometers.info/
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Almost all the data I reference re: COVID cases and deaths are from https://www.worldometers.info/
That looks like a cool website.
I'm a bit more concerned by this statement on where they glean their data: "Official reports, directly from Government's communication channels or indirectly, through local media sources when deemed reliable."
Again, I haven't taken the time to look at Florida's numbers specifically so I can't say whether or not your source is accurate. I'm just saying that numbers can be manipulated quite easily. People on the conservative end of the spectrum say they are OVER reported and people on the liberal end of the spectrum claim they are UNDER reported. States are doing reporting differently. And media sources? LoL, ok.....
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Almost all the data I reference re: COVID cases and deaths are from https://www.worldometers.info/
That looks like a cool website.
I'm a bit more concerned by this statement on where they glean their data: "Official reports, directly from Government's communication channels or indirectly, through local media sources when deemed reliable."
Again, I haven't taken the time to look at Florida's numbers specifically so I can't say whether or not your source is accurate. I'm just saying that numbers can be manipulated quite easily. People on the conservative end of the spectrum say they are OVER reported and people on the liberal end of the spectrum claim they are UNDER reported. States are doing reporting differently. And media sources? LoL, ok.....
That's what I call playing the numbers game.
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Almost all the data I reference re: COVID cases and deaths are from https://www.worldometers.info/
That looks like a cool website.
I'm a bit more concerned by this statement on where they glean their data: "Official reports, directly from Government's communication channels or indirectly, through local media sources when deemed reliable."
Again, I haven't taken the time to look at Florida's numbers specifically so I can't say whether or not your source is accurate. I'm just saying that numbers can be manipulated quite easily. People on the conservative end of the spectrum say they are OVER reported and people on the liberal end of the spectrum claim they are UNDER reported. States are doing reporting differently. And media sources? LoL, ok.....
I would agree with all of this, and I do recall during Florida's giant surge early on in the pandemic that a health department employee in Florida blew the whistle on heavy governmental pressure to change the numbers and under-report the number of cases or deaths.
I just find it amazing that going back to normal means that it's generally acceptable for kids to be sick. People get angry over kids having to wear masks, but calling our kids out of school for 4 out of 9 days is acceptable? I can't even get her homework because the school will only send homework home for 5 day absences or more (covid quarantine).
I have a health degree and understand that illnesses have their usefulness in keeping our immune systems running property, but at the same time, wouldn't it be nice to find a way to reduce the spread of the stomach flu in a school? We embrace certain tools, like technology, but we can't embrace mask usage when ill so we're not spreading germs?
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I also want to point out that it may be problematic to compare/contrast Florida to California in another way. Let's just say we accept all the reported data from both of those states as accurate. Is it still fair to compare them?
Florida tends to have higher temps which would allow for more outdoor activities/gatherings which would limit spread of a viral illness spread by respiratory droplets.
California has warm temps too but not in exactly the same way. Northern California, the coastal areas, and Sierra Nevada foothills can have much cooler/wetter climates. Covid cases could be more robust in those areas where people cannot congregate outside year around.
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Almost all the data I reference re: COVID cases and deaths are from https://www.worldometers.info/
That looks like a cool website.
I'm a bit more concerned by this statement on where they glean their data: "Official reports, directly from Government's communication channels or indirectly, through local media sources when deemed reliable."
Again, I haven't taken the time to look at Florida's numbers specifically so I can't say whether or not your source is accurate. I'm just saying that numbers can be manipulated quite easily. People on the conservative end of the spectrum say they are OVER reported and people on the liberal end of the spectrum claim they are UNDER reported. States are doing reporting differently. And media sources? LoL, ok.....
I would agree with all of this, and I do recall during Florida's giant surge early on in the pandemic that a health department employee in Florida blew the whistle on heavy governmental pressure to change the numbers and under-report the number of cases or deaths.
I just find it amazing that going back to normal means that it's generally acceptable for kids to be sick. People get angry over kids having to wear masks, but calling our kids out of school for 4 out of 9 days is acceptable? I can't even get her homework because the school will only send homework home for 5 day absences or more (covid quarantine).
I have a health degree and understand that illnesses have their usefulness in keeping our immune systems running property, but at the same time, wouldn't it be nice to find a way to reduce the spread of the stomach flu in a school? We embrace certain tools, like technology, but we can't embrace mask usage when ill so we're not spreading germs?
Sounds like a problem with the school system more so than the sickness.
Humans can't control everything in this world. That's when Nature laughs and proves humans wrong, and it's happened time and time again throughout history.
One way to stop spread is to not send your kid to school, but with the way the system of this society is ran, that is not a possibility. So that is not the problem of the illness, but an issue of the very system of society we humans are required to live by. Meaning, not many can afford to keep their children at home, so they send them to school sick.
You could even isolate the child within the school while letting a teacher teach them on a personal level, sort of like having a teacher that would teach students that show signs of illness.
There's ways around things.
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Almost all the data I reference re: COVID cases and deaths are from https://www.worldometers.info/
That looks like a cool website.
I'm a bit more concerned by this statement on where they glean their data: "Official reports, directly from Government's communication channels or indirectly, through local media sources when deemed reliable."
Again, I haven't taken the time to look at Florida's numbers specifically so I can't say whether or not your source is accurate. I'm just saying that numbers can be manipulated quite easily. People on the conservative end of the spectrum say they are OVER reported and people on the liberal end of the spectrum claim they are UNDER reported. States are doing reporting differently. And media sources? LoL, ok.....
I would agree with all of this, and I do recall during Florida's giant surge early on in the pandemic that a health department employee in Florida blew the whistle on heavy governmental pressure to change the numbers and under-report the number of cases or deaths.
I just find it amazing that going back to normal means that it's generally acceptable for kids to be sick. People get angry over kids having to wear masks, but calling our kids out of school for 4 out of 9 days is acceptable? I can't even get her homework because the school will only send homework home for 5 day absences or more (covid quarantine).
I have a health degree and understand that illnesses have their usefulness in keeping our immune systems running property, but at the same time, wouldn't it be nice to find a way to reduce the spread of the stomach flu in a school? We embrace certain tools, like technology, but we can't embrace mask usage when ill so we're not spreading germs?
All fair points, and I'm not going to waste even a sentence on defending Florida and/or their numbers. But then there's the the NY Times Morning article about how little we actually control COVID and how often it has defied the common wisdom. And there's this NY Times article (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/09/briefing/covid-precautions-red-blue-states.html), and I quote: "Combined, these factors seem as if they should have caused large differences in case rates. They have not. And that they haven’t offers some clarity about the relative effectiveness of different Covid interventions." Read the rest of the article for context, but it's pretty clear that the common wisdom is anything but.
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Isn't Florida where the girl that was in charge of stats fired for not keeping the "right" statistics or something like that??
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Isn't Florida where the girl that was in charge of stats fired for not keeping the "right" statistics or something like that??
^Fake news.
https://news.yahoo.com/rebekah-jones-covid-whistleblower-wasn-103039488.html
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And just for the record, California and New York, to name two, have both weathered scandals about under-reporting COVID numbers. I get Harmony's original point - take ANY numbers with a grain of salt - but it goes across all lines, and if we're going to accept some we might as well accept all. I can't imagine that it's a case of China (whose numbers are simply incredulous at this point).
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Isn't Florida where the girl that was in charge of stats fired for not keeping the "right" statistics or something like that??
^Fake news.
https://news.yahoo.com/rebekah-jones-covid-whistleblower-wasn-103039488.html
Did Stadler write that article? :biggrin:
Jones now claims that she was “terrified” by the police’s visit.
I guess "terrified" would need to be "TERRIFIED" to be written by him. :biggrin:
I started reading the article and was wondering why it seemed like a hit piece. Then I saw it was from the National Review. It made sense then.
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Isn't Florida where the girl that was in charge of stats fired for not keeping the "right" statistics or something like that??
^Fake news.
https://news.yahoo.com/rebekah-jones-covid-whistleblower-wasn-103039488.html
Did Stadler write that article? :biggrin:
Jones now claims that she was “terrified” by the police’s visit.
I guess "terrified" would need to be "TERRIFIED" to be written by him. :biggrin:
I started reading the article and was wondering why it seemed like a hit piece. Then I saw it was from the National Review. It made sense then.
Where are the COMMAS?!?
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A whole weekend without discussion. That should be a good sign. And perhaps it is, for this community is largely Europe and NA. Asia is getting hammered again.
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1503420660869214213
It's worth 5 minutes of your day to scroll through this guys posts. HK is getting slaughtered - literally. And Mainland China is about to feel it.
"Without the benefits of mass elderly vaccination or any infection-acquired immunity, Omicron remains highly lethal"
And South Korea looks like this:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNsb66SVsAUR-vG?format=jpg&name=small)
Stay safe and diligent people.
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And just for the record, California and New York, to name two, have both weathered scandals about under-reporting COVID numbers. I get Harmony's original point - take ANY numbers with a grain of salt - but it goes across all lines, and if we're going to accept some we might as well accept all. I can't imagine that it's a case of China (whose numbers are simply incredulous at this point).
I would imagine when it comes to the states at least, if we got actual, honest numbers from each state, I'd guess they'd be really similar.
We'll never see honest numbers from China, that was like my Dr. asking me how much I drank a week, it was always a quarter of the actual amount...
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Someone I consider a friend, a mentor an uncle is now in icu battling covid complications. His name is Stan. He went in 2 weeks ago with serious breathing issues (oxygen levels down to 70%).
He got better Monday already wanting out and being stubborn like he always is. But the other day his stats dropped they had to put him into deep sleep and ventilator. Just learned earlier today he is not urinating so they are worried about kidneys. I am beside myself.
I guess I could say I have been lucky for I have only lost my grand parents (my dads, my mom lost her parents as a child) from natural causes and while we obviously grieved it is part of life. And my grandparents being in Poland while we live in Canada last 30 years, how do I say this. I loved my grandparents but they really weren't in my everyday life outside of the handful of times flying for vacations over the last 3 decades.
This hits a lot harder and closer for me and it's.. well scary, saddening and shocking. I'm crying for the whole family. I don't believe it is happening
A bit of context, his family and my family have been friends for 25 years. My youngest brother met Kathy and Karolina (twins) in grade school, being polish they got talking. They just moved in to the neighbourhood and realized they live still 2 blocks away from my parents home.(we all kids have moved out but the old farts are still in the same houses)
I remember the day they came over as a family, and we all just hit it off. Family trips, get togethers, tight through good times and bad times. His 3 daughters and son are mine and my brothers close friends. My cousin is married to one of the daughters .I am the godson to my cousins one son. My mom and dad are both still best friends with Stan and his wife Ela. So yes family.
Everytime I hear the phone message or call a dread runs through me. It hurts. I just needed to type, do something. already drove around in the country, went for walk. Poured a stiff whiskey and coke. Just sitting and fucking waiting... trying to be positive, trying to pray. Thank you if you guys read this. Thank you in advance because I know this community is some of the nicest caring people.
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That's tough to hear man. I hope it turns out for the best.
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Spiritus, so sorry to hear that. That was a touching read.
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Just received notice that we no longer have to wear masks at our facility unless we are in a patient area. This is amazing news. For the first time in over two years! This is subject to change, of course, if a new wave washes in. But for now, I'm grateful to have turned the corner. It has felt like forever.
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And as of this writing, our county is down to 0 cases for the first time in 2 years. :metal
We'll see for how long though.
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And as of this writing, our county is down to 0 cases for the first time in 2 years. :metal
We'll see for how long though.
This. I'm as excited as anyone for this to be over, but I can't shake the feeling that this current calm is too good to be true. :eek
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And as of this writing, our county is down to 0 cases for the first time in 2 years. :metal
We'll see for how long though.
This. I'm as excited as anyone for this to be over, but I can't shake the feeling that this current calm is too good to be true. :eek
And now we're up to one case.
Oh well - it was good while it lasted..... :)
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Here in Ontario, the paediatric cases in ICU > adults. :tup <sarcasm>
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I miss the great memes from the early days of the pandemic in March 2020:
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/90682576_1865320170266871_5043290413033586688_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=6dl3HXpz1IcAX8c0_6h&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AT-x_sPixjel1jlYMhKJgfILMn0YZv5zFaH5k1uNgeLtyQ&oe=62631DAD)
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I miss the great memes from the early days of the pandemic in March 2020:
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/90682576_1865320170266871_5043290413033586688_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=6dl3HXpz1IcAX8c0_6h&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AT-x_sPixjel1jlYMhKJgfILMn0YZv5zFaH5k1uNgeLtyQ&oe=62631DAD)
(https://i.imgflip.com/46fsgl.jpg)
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I miss the great memes from the early days of the pandemic in March 2020:
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/90682576_1865320170266871_5043290413033586688_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=6dl3HXpz1IcAX8c0_6h&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=00_AT-x_sPixjel1jlYMhKJgfILMn0YZv5zFaH5k1uNgeLtyQ&oe=62631DAD)
That came up in my FB memories today lol
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FB Memories??
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Yes they are telling you what to remember. What, do you do that on your own?!
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Those early memories are weird to read now. I had one that talked about how the first confirmed cases were being reported in my county, then a few days later about how someone in my office had been exposed. There was a dreadful "It's coming!" feel at the time.
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Those early memories are weird to read now. I had one that talked about how the first confirmed cases were being reported in my county, then a few days later about how someone in my office had been exposed. There was a dreadful "It's coming!" feel at the time.
Unlike the dread of 'it's still fucking here'. Article from 2 hours ago:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/spring-wave-of-covid-19-be-prepared-canada-experts-warn-1.5832740
Officials in Ontario, Quebec, Alberta and B.C. say wastewater analysis suggests COVID-19 infections are beginning to climb again. However, experts say it's not yet clear whether Canada's next wave will be a surge or a ripple. "It could be a wave, it could be a smaller wave… It's not entirely clear what’s on deck, but we'll probably have a rise in cases and we know that whenever there's a rise in cases, there's usually this corresponding rise, sadly, in hospitalizations and deaths."
Public health officials tracking prevalence of COVID-19 through municipal wastewater testing in Ontario say they’re seeing a "sustained increase" in the viral signal in a variety of locations.
The increase comes after the province rolled back mask mandates and other restrictions including capacity limits for many indoor spaces and vaccine passports. Other provinces that have also recently eased restrictions, such as Alberta and B.C., are also seeing an uptick in viral load through wastewater data.
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Those early memories are weird to read now. I had one that talked about how the first confirmed cases were being reported in my county, then a few days later about how someone in my office had been exposed. There was a dreadful "It's coming!" feel at the time.
I remember a post in my local neighborhood Facebook group blowing up with 150-200 comments when someone reported that our McDonalds had an employee that was covid positive. The neighborhood was freaking out, with so many people posting "OMG, I went through that drive-through today!" or "Why are/aren't they closed?" Then the manager of the McDonalds had to chime in and address the accusation.
The same goes for the woman that explained how she covered her countertop in butcher paper when bringing home take-out food. Potentially covid contaminated containers from the restaurant stayed on one section of the paper and the food was transferred to clean plates on the other side of the paper. Then everything was discarded.
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Yep. I remember the YouTube videos demonstrating how to disinfect everything you brought home from the store.
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Yes they are telling you what to remember. What, do you do that on your own?!
:lol
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Yep. I remember the YouTube videos demonstrating how to disinfect everything you brought home from the store.
Wow, I remember one of those. WTF??
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Yep. I remember the YouTube videos demonstrating how to disinfect everything you brought home from the store.
Wow, I remember one of those. WTF??
We didn’t know what we didn’t know.
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Yep. I remember the YouTube videos demonstrating how to disinfect everything you brought home from the store.
Wow, I remember one of those. WTF??
We didn’t know what we didn’t know.
Yep!
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Yep. I remember the YouTube videos demonstrating how to disinfect everything you brought home from the store.
Wow, I remember one of those. WTF??
We didn’t know what we didn’t know.
Yep!
My parents were leaving non-refrigerated stuff in the garage for a couple days before bringing it into the house.
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Before we knew what the primary transmission vectors were, I could definitely at least understand why certain persons would have done that.
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Some viruses and bacterias are easily spread via fomites. It was logical in the beginning to suspect SARS-CoV-2 could be too.
This is why we are encouraged to wash our hands frequently and when someone is sick in your home to wipe down frequently touched surfaces like door knobs, phones, and light switches.
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Someone I consider a friend, a mentor an uncle is now in icu battling covid complications. His name is Stan. He went in 2 weeks ago with serious breathing issues (oxygen levels down to 70%).
He got better Monday already wanting out and being stubborn like he always is. But the other day his stats dropped they had to put him into deep sleep and ventilator. Just learned earlier today he is not urinating so they are worried about kidneys. I am beside myself.
I guess I could say I have been lucky for I have only lost my grand parents (my dads, my mom lost her parents as a child) from natural causes and while we obviously grieved it is part of life. And my grandparents being in Poland while we live in Canada last 30 years, how do I say this. I loved my grandparents but they really weren't in my everyday life outside of the handful of times flying for vacations over the last 3 decades.
This hits a lot harder and closer for me and it's.. well scary, saddening and shocking. I'm crying for the whole family. I don't believe it is happening
A bit of context, his family and my family have been friends for 25 years. My youngest brother met Kathy and Karolina (twins) in grade school, being polish they got talking. They just moved in to the neighbourhood and realized they live still 2 blocks away from my parents home.(we all kids have moved out but the old farts are still in the same houses)
I remember the day they came over as a family, and we all just hit it off. Family trips, get togethers, tight through good times and bad times. His 3 daughters and son are mine and my brothers close friends. My cousin is married to one of the daughters .I am the godson to my cousins one son. My mom and dad are both still best friends with Stan and his wife Ela. So yes family.
Everytime I hear the phone message or call a dread runs through me. It hurts. I just needed to type, do something. already drove around in the country, went for walk. Poured a stiff whiskey and coke. Just sitting and fucking waiting... trying to be positive, trying to pray. Thank you if you guys read this. Thank you in advance because I know this community is some of the nicest caring people.
Stan passed away this morning.
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Spiritus,
I'm truly sorry for your loss. Virtual hugs. :heart
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Thank you for feeling comfortable posting the update, Spiritus. We are all here for you with our sympathies.
I guess I could say I have been lucky for I have only lost my grand parents (my dads, my mom lost her parents as a child) from natural causes and while we obviously grieved it is part of life.
This is me. I remember all four of my grandparents dying, and while each passing was sad it their own right, because they all lived rich, full lives, it seemed ok. I've never lost anyone where I felt they died "before their time" or in a way outside of "natural causes/old age."
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That's awful Spiritus. Sorry to hear.
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Goddamn. So sorry to hear this.
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Sorry for your loss Spiritus :sad:
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My condolences for the loss of your mentor, Spiritus.
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The rest of the world in 2020-2021: "Well, we implemented all the Covid restrictions we could think of."
China in 2022: "Amateurs."
https://www.yahoo.com/video/control-soul-desire-freedom-shocking-191048377.html
Footage circulated on Chinese social-media app Weibo purported to show a drone flying over apartment buildings where residents stepped out onto their balconies. It was not clear when the footage was filmed.
“Please comply with Covid restrictions,” a voice says over the drone’s loudspeaker, according to the Economist senior China correspondent Alice Su. “Control your soul’s desire for freedom. Do not open the window or sing.”
All residents who test positive for Covid are required to go to a hospital or other quarantine facility. Video allegedly from one makeshift hospital in Shanghai, shared by CNN, appeared to show patients fighting over basic necessities including food:
Unverified photos and videos of children who tested positive for Covid being separated from their parents have circulated widely on Chinese social media, sparking an outcry from residents.
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The rest of the world in 2020-2021: "Well, we implemented all the Covid restrictions we could think of."
China in 2022: "Amateurs."
https://www.yahoo.com/video/control-soul-desire-freedom-shocking-191048377.html
Footage circulated on Chinese social-media app Weibo purported to show a drone flying over apartment buildings where residents stepped out onto their balconies. It was not clear when the footage was filmed.
“Please comply with Covid restrictions,” a voice says over the drone’s loudspeaker, according to the Economist senior China correspondent Alice Su. “Control your soul’s desire for freedom. Do not open the window or sing.”
All residents who test positive for Covid are required to go to a hospital or other quarantine facility. Video allegedly from one makeshift hospital in Shanghai, shared by CNN, appeared to show patients fighting over basic necessities including food:
Unverified photos and videos of children who tested positive for Covid being separated from their parents have circulated widely on Chinese social media, sparking an outcry from residents.
China is going insanely overboard with quarantining. 23,000 cases in a city of 29 million, and only 1,100 of those cases are symptomatic.
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I already had a bad feeling about this. It's coming around again. I can only imagine Illinois won't be far behind as some southern counties are already over CDC thresholds.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/philadelphia-to-reinstate-indoor-mask-mandate-amid-surge-in-new-covid-cases-01649708225?siteid=yhoof2
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I already had a bad feeling about this. It's coming around again. I can only imagine Illinois won't be far behind as some southern counties are already over CDC thresholds.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/philadelphia-to-reinstate-indoor-mask-mandate-amid-surge-in-new-covid-cases-01649708225?siteid=yhoof2
Yeah - I struggled whether to get my second booster shot and was considering whether I should wait for fall but my wife has severe asthma, so I didn't think it's worth the risk. I got the shot on Friday at 10:30 but I dind't start feeling the effects until 3:00pm Saturday - right smack dab in the middle of a production upgrade. Ugh.. was all better by noon on Sunday.
I am not surprised by the uptick. It's inevitable, exspecially for those who refuse to get vaccinated.
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My 1st booster (3rd shot) is coming up in the 3rd week of May.
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The thing is, these newer strains of Omicron (and we probably don't have to wait much longer for Pi to come along) are jumping the vax's. It's inevitable really, the vax's were developed to combat Alpha, and we're now a dozen+ iterations down the line. I know a few people that have caught COVID it twice, and read a headline recently that there are cases of people catching a second case within months of their first. Yay antibodies!.
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I already had a bad feeling about this. It's coming around again. I can only imagine Illinois won't be far behind as some southern counties are already over CDC thresholds.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/philadelphia-to-reinstate-indoor-mask-mandate-amid-surge-in-new-covid-cases-01649708225?siteid=yhoof2
Yeah - I struggled whether to get my second booster shot and was considering whether I should wait for fall but my wife has severe asthma, so I didn't think it's worth the risk. I got the shot on Friday at 10:30 but I dind't start feeling the effects until 3:00pm Saturday - right smack dab in the middle of a production upgrade. Ugh.. was all better by noon on Sunday.
I am not surprised by the uptick. It's inevitable, exspecially for those who refuse to get vaccinated.
Well, if like Chad says, it's jumping the vax, that's not really a major point anymore.
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I already had a bad feeling about this. It's coming around again. I can only imagine Illinois won't be far behind as some southern counties are already over CDC thresholds.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/philadelphia-to-reinstate-indoor-mask-mandate-amid-surge-in-new-covid-cases-01649708225?siteid=yhoof2
Yeah - I struggled whether to get my second booster shot and was considering whether I should wait for fall but my wife has severe asthma, so I didn't think it's worth the risk. I got the shot on Friday at 10:30 but I dind't start feeling the effects until 3:00pm Saturday - right smack dab in the middle of a production upgrade. Ugh.. was all better by noon on Sunday.
I am not surprised by the uptick. It's inevitable, exspecially for those who refuse to get vaccinated.
Well, if like Chad says, it's jumping the vax, that's not really a major point anymore.
The evidence from the last surge showed that the vast majority of hospitalizations were to do the unvaxxed.
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I already had a bad feeling about this. It's coming around again. I can only imagine Illinois won't be far behind as some southern counties are already over CDC thresholds.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/philadelphia-to-reinstate-indoor-mask-mandate-amid-surge-in-new-covid-cases-01649708225?siteid=yhoof2
Yeah - I struggled whether to get my second booster shot and was considering whether I should wait for fall but my wife has severe asthma, so I didn't think it's worth the risk. I got the shot on Friday at 10:30 but I dind't start feeling the effects until 3:00pm Saturday - right smack dab in the middle of a production upgrade. Ugh.. was all better by noon on Sunday.
I am not surprised by the uptick. It's inevitable, exspecially for those who refuse to get vaccinated.
Well, if like Chad says, it's jumping the vax, that's not really a major point anymore.
The evidence from the last surge showed that the vast majority of hospitalizations were to do the unvaxxed.
They're talking about an uptick in cases, not hospitalizations.
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There's no doubt there will be another covid wave, and another and so on. This is life as we know it for the foreseeable future and I'm not concerned much at all at this time.
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Reported case increases are essentially meaningless as many (most?) people are testing at home and not reporting positive tests. Looking at hospitalizations is a metric worth noting but often lags behind what is currently happening in your community.
I recommend monitoring the waste water tracking. https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#wastewater-surveillance
Found this graph on Twitter which claims to show % covid increased in the last 15 days for some cities based on data from the above link as of yesterday.
(https://i.imgur.com/I4U6xXt.jpg)
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Ontario has "officially" declared a 6th wave. And while it's jumping the vax, the vax still is the best safeguard against hospitalizations and/or severe outcomes. As Harmony said, case counts are meaningless at this stage of the pandemic. Hospitalizations (although a lagging indicator of spread) are the metric that needs to be monitored and managed as best as possible - and that happens thru vacc'n, masking, and distancing.
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Yep, people who've been vaccinated can still get it, and those who've had it can get it again. It's a virus. The important thing is that your symptoms will be less severe. Evidence for that is overwhelming. A bad cold for a week versus a few months in the hospital on a ventilator and likely permanent damage to multiple systems. The shot is still worth it.
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Reported case increases are essentially meaningless as many (most?) people are testing at home and not reporting positive tests. Looking at hospitalizations is a metric worth noting but often lags behind what is currently happening in your community.
I recommend monitoring the waste water tracking. https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#wastewater-surveillance
Found this graph on Twitter which claims to show % covid increased in the last 15 days for some cities based on data from the above link as of yesterday.
(https://i.imgur.com/I4U6xXt.jpg)
This was brought up on CNN today https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/12/health/cases-rise-ba-2/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/12/health/cases-rise-ba-2/index.html)
Beyond case counts, which may be a less reliable pandemic metric because testing numbers have dropped, coronavirus levels in wastewater are telling a largely reassuring story.
Wastewater monitoring is considered a reliable warning of what's on the way. US numbers are trending up slightly but are still at one of the lowest levels seen since July, according to Biobot Analytics, a company that analyzes wastewater samples from across the country.
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I am co-chair at a HS pantry for an organization called 'Student Support Network'. During our three hours at the school today, my co-chair got a text from her husband that he tested positive. They had relatives in from Jersey over the weekend (all vaxxed, all boosted once or twice).
Well, she tested positive upon arriving home. At least we were both masked 95% of the time during 'work', always masked when within six feet of each other. I'm negative now, but it suxx that my wife and I have to isolate distance-wise for the next few days. Yes, we're both vaxxed and one time boosted. We're definitely getting the second booster much sooner than planned. We're lucky!
And, darn, we had a rib roast to attend on Friday night.
Had a false positive test, and then two negatives so far 48 hours later.
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Strange thing I noticed. Before the pandemic, I never realized how much of a pain in the ass it is going into the office. Even 3 days a week is a fucking pain. Everyone is now working for Thursday afternoons as we head home and don't have to go back in until the following Tuesday. It's almost like a 4 day weekend.
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Strange thing I noticed. Before the pandemic, I never realized how much of a pain in the ass it is going into the office. Even 3 days a week is a fucking pain. Everyone is now working for Thursday afternoons as we head home and don't have to go back in until the following Tuesday. It's almost like a 4 day weekend.
I’ve only had to go into the office about once a month during the pandemic, and even that seems like way too much effort.
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Puleeze.
You guys are wussies. ;D
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Puleeze.
You guys are wussies. ;D
Actually, it's not as bad as listening to Power Windows. :lol
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Yesterday ....
1st day of new job. All day in-person strategy session, followed by social drinks food. At the strategy session in the office, I'm the only one of about 30 people that came with a mask. It was a large space, we're all spread out, so I ditched it after breakfast/coffee. It felt pretty safe and secure.
Went to the bar/pub, wearing a mask inside - again, I'm the only of our group wearing a mask, and hardly anyone in the whole place has one other than the staff. The one guy I'm sitting next to for about 5-10 minutes while I had my mask off for ONE drink, and stuffed some nachos and pizza in my mouth to quell my hunger, sends a note to the group this morning that he tested positive.
JFC. My first time out in a public setting like this, or any kind of large social gathering (other than movie theaters), since March of '20, and despite all the precautions I take, I'm directly exposed to COVID sans masks. So, I (and the rest of the jingle.family will be somewhat be on pins and needles until probably Tuesday or Wednesday before I'll feel "clear".
FFS.
This ... THIS ... is the kind of shit that makes me take the precautions I do (I got no ill-will towards the other guy, it's just a random fucking thing - this was his first crowded gathering in 2022 - though, if he tested positive just 16 hours after the gathering, it's unlikely he caught it yesterday). All the power to you guys that have avoided it so far, and are comfortable being out in public maskless in crowded spaces. It's still a fucking crapshoot.
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Chad, is the jingle family at a particular risk...obviously you don't have answer that..
I mean, I know being sick blows, but I assume you're all vaccinated. Even if you do test positive, don't you have confidence that you're protected by the vaccine?
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Yesterday ....
1st day of new job. All day in-person strategy session, followed by social drinks food. At the strategy session in the office, I'm the only one of about 30 people that came with a mask. It was a large space, we're all spread out, so I ditched it after breakfast/coffee. It felt pretty safe and secure.
Went to the bar/pub, wearing a mask inside - again, I'm the only of our group wearing a mask, and hardly anyone in the whole place has one other than the staff. The one guy I'm sitting next to for about 5-10 minutes while I had my mask off for ONE drink, and stuffed some nachos and pizza in my mouth to quell my hunger, sends a note to the group this morning that he tested positive.
JFC. My first time out in a public setting like this, or any kind of large social gathering (other than movie theaters), since March of '20, and despite all the precautions I take, I'm directly exposed to COVID sans masks. So, I (and the rest of the jingle.family will be somewhat be on pins and needles until probably Tuesday or Wednesday before I'll feel "clear".
FFS.
This ... THIS ... is the kind of shit that makes me take the precautions I do (I got no ill-will towards the other guy, it's just a random fucking thing - this was his first crowded gathering in 2022 - though, if he tested positive just 16 hours after the gathering, it's unlikely he caught it yesterday). All the power to you guys that have avoided it so far, and are comfortable being out in public maskless in crowded spaces. It's still a fucking crapshoot.
Stress less man, you'll be fine.
Plus, it's a new job social thing, you can't avoid that sort of setting just because you 'might' get COVID.
I don't go out fucking anywhere and still got it somehow!
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So I got COVID about two weeks ago. I'm not vaccinated at all. For me, it was about 2 days of body aches, fever with a sore throat and fatigue. Was coughing up some shit for a few days but wasn't bedridden at all. Was still going to work outside of hours so I didn't come in contact with anyone. For me it was like a normal flu. If COVID wasn't a thing, I would have carried on as normal.
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Obviously I feel bad for jingle and the jingle family, and it goes without saying that I hope no one in the clan gets it, but I'm not sure I can live that way. Man plans and God laughs.
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Obviously I feel bad for jingle and the jingle family, and it goes without saying that I hope no one in the clan gets it, but I'm not sure I can live that way. Man plans and God laughs.
Well, no positive test (yet), but I've run the gauntlet of COVID symptoms since about dinnertime on Saturday - extremely sore throat, tight chest, cough, aches, intestinal issues, coughing up phlegm. Only need nausea and fever to complete the set.
And to answer your question Tim... yes, both jingle.kids suffered from asthmas as children. It's largely a non-issue, but who knows how they'd handle a respiratory virus.
I'm quite thankful that the person that told the group Friday morning he tested positive, because I've been able to mask and isolate since then - and it seems the virus has spared the rest of the jingle.family.
I guess my earlier point was that if I - as a very risk averse person taking many precautions most other people don't - can get this, it just goes to show how easily it spreads.
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Did you test positive (I hope not)?
Look, I'm not interested in arguing with you when your health is at stake, and the ONLY think I want you to take from my posts here is that when it comes to your health, I hope you and your family get through this relatively scott-free. But there ARE flaws in your logical conclusion based on one data point.
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Come on guys. There's no need to even suggest that there might be an argument... And is it really, after everything that's happened over the last few years and the things we've read from others in this very thread, hard to imagine why someone would be concerned? If someone got it and it was mild and no big deal, that's great. We can only hope it's like that for everyone. But it's not a head scratcher why someone would be concerned.
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Missing 2 things Stads.
1. When you're sick before covid, a high majority stay home.
2. You have to know the mindset of the people around you that influence your situation.
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Missing 2 things Stads.
1. When you're sick before covid, a high majority stay home.
2. You have to know the mindset of the people around you that influence your situation.
And number 2 was kind of where I was going; how can you? I didn't think I said "not to be concerned", outright, but there are things we control and things we don't, and even the things we control it's not an absolute. I can't go around worrying about that meteor that didn't hit me.
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Come on guys. There's no need to even suggest that there might be an argument... And is it really, after everything that's happened over the last few years and the things we've read from others in this very thread, hard to imagine why someone would be concerned? If someone got it and it was mild and no big deal, that's great. We can only hope it's like that for everyone. But it's not a head scratcher why someone would be concerned.
As someone who's read these two's arguments about covid for 2 years now... one thing I noticed is this:
I guess my earlier point was that if I - as a very risk averse person taking many precautions most other people don't - can get this, it just goes to show how easily it spreads.
Kind of falls into exactly what Stads has been saying for awhile:
Man plans and God laughs.
Unless you plan on isolating the rest of your life, you kind of just have to accept the risk of getting sick from covid or really, any other disease at this point. It's not going to disappear and self isolating isn't really a good solution either when you consider that vaccines still do a great job at preventing serious illness. I still am of the belief that everyone is going to catch covid at some point. All of the people I know of locally (only a couple who I know about) who have recently got it are people who never yet had an infection. Having said that, hope you are feeling better and the family is all good, Chad.
In other news, Ozzy's covid infection is on the mend.
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That's about where I'm at. My daughter and I are battling bad chest colds right now. I haven't felt this sick for years, specifically the last two - having social distanced as much as we can and wearing masks when needed. She tested negative for covid, so there was no reason for me to test. Neither of us have had fevers at all, just bad congestion, coughs, etc.
I'm sure I'll catch covid someday and at least we're at a point now where vaccines are available and the virus has mutated enough to be less severe. A few months ago, i was really angry that the masks came off and all of a sudden we were batting colds and the stomach flu again, but that's the reality of the situation - being back to normal with a lot of illnesses spreading to make up for two years of families generally staying healthier.
It's aggravating to be sick a lot, but after a little while, I got over that mindset that EVERYONE needs to avoid ALL illnesses for my benefit. It was nice while it lasted, but it's also nice to not have to deal with covid mitigations. Being exposed to covid at times will be part of our lives going forward.
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Come on guys. There's no need to even suggest that there might be an argument... And is it really, after everything that's happened over the last few years and the things we've read from others in this very thread, hard to imagine why someone would be concerned? If someone got it and it was mild and no big deal, that's great. We can only hope it's like that for everyone. But it's not a head scratcher why someone would be concerned.
As someone who's read these two's arguments about covid for 2 years now... one thing I noticed is this:
I guess my earlier point was that if I - as a very risk averse person taking many precautions most other people don't - can get this, it just goes to show how easily it spreads.
Kind of falls into exactly what Stads has been saying for awhile:
Man plans and God laughs.
Unless you plan on isolating the rest of your life, you kind of just have to accept the risk of getting sick from covid or really, any other disease at this point. It's not going to disappear and self isolating isn't really a good solution either when you consider that vaccines still do a great job at preventing serious illness. I still am of the belief that everyone is going to catch covid at some point. All of the people I know of locally (only a couple who I know about) who have recently got it are people who never yet had an infection. Having said that, hope you are feeling better and the family is all good, Chad.
In other news, Ozzy's covid infection is on the mend.
Yeah but there's a time and place for everything. And there's responding to what was actually posted. If I come here posting an argument about how people other than myself should be handling the possibility of getting covid, masking or not, going here but not there, etc, then ok, maybe I'm asking for an argument/debate/what have you. If come here posting that I've been exposed and am concerned for myself or my family (which I suppose I've just learned not to do), then make me a cup of online tea, play me some Katatonia, wish me the best, and pull up a chair in case I want to continue talking about it.
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Yeah but there's a time and place for everything. And there's responding to what was actually posted.
This. I typed in a long post about how, in my experience as a person working with unmasked kids and unmasked myself throughout the pandemic who only started getting sick as people en masse started getting vaccinated and started seeing other people, what killed a lot of virus transmission before was a bit masks (and it sure is nice to hide my red nose and reduce the chance I'm giving someone something on public transport and in the grocery store) and a lot of social distancing. Just not being around people as much as pre-pandemic will make you a lot less sick. Those levels of social isolation aren't likely to be maintained over long periods of time.
But I deleted the post. What's the point? It's only my perspective, not a lot of people have had the same desensitizing experience of working an essential job unmasked, not a lot of people who did take care and killed their social lives up to omicron takeover have gotten so close and comfortable with the idea of eventually getting COVID as early as I have, and more importantly, I know how much it meant to Chad to not catch it.
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Yeah but there's a time and place for everything. And there's responding to what was actually posted. If I come here posting an argument about how people other than myself should be handling the possibility of getting covid, masking or not, going here but not there, etc, then ok, maybe I'm asking for an argument/debate/what have you. If come here posting that I've been exposed and am concerned for myself or my family (which I suppose I've just learned not to do), then make me a cup of online tea, play me some Katatonia, wish me the best, and pull up a chair in case I want to continue talking about it.
I'd generally agree with you if it werent for the years of these two often debating about covid. I also didnt, and mostly havent (although there have been times...), read their arguments as aggressive or harsh on each other so I didn't really take it the way you seem to have. I think it's safe to say we all want to see Chad recover and everyone wishes him and his family the best.
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Did you test positive (I hope not)?
not yet. 0-for2 so far. Given all the symptoms I've had in a 36 hour period, I'm fully convinced I'm positive though - time and testing will tell.
Look, I'm not interested in arguing with you when your health is at stake, and the ONLY think I want you to take from my posts here is that when it comes to your health, I hope you and your family get through this relatively scott-free. But there ARE flaws in your logical conclusion based on one data point.
As you've said many times over the years, everyone has their own calculus of risk. You've got yours; I've got mine; mrs.jingle has hers, and so on and so on. I don't fault you for yours; I didn't fault anyone for theirs on Thursday at this event. I'm really not sure what conclusion I'm making that is flawed?
As it turns out, 4 more from our group have now tested positive - all of whom were sitting around the person that notified the group Friday morning he tested positive. Seems fairly logical to conclude he was the 'spreader' within our group. And I don't fault him at all... it is what it is, and I never expected I'd go my whole life without catching COVID. I was merely lamenting about how easy this is to spread, and hence why I take the precautions I do, as I have 3 other people to consider at home that don't even have the risk threshold that *I* do.
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Did you test positive (I hope not)?
not yet. 0-for2 so far. Given all the symptoms I've had in a 36 hour period, I'm fully convinced I'm positive though - time and testing will tell.
This was me a few days after Easter. 2 people at our dinner gathering turned up positive and I started to feel crappy. I tested every day for 5 days - all negative. One of the women's own daughter felt crappy and did a pcr test (negative). In retrospect, I think the feeling crappy part was my body doing its job to fight off the virus. Like when we get a booster.
But yes, time will tell. Hope you feel better soon. My ass was DRAGGING hard and all I wanted to do was sleep.
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Did you test positive (I hope not)?
not yet. 0-for2 so far. Given all the symptoms I've had in a 36 hour period, I'm fully convinced I'm positive though - time and testing will tell.
This was me a few days after Easter. 2 people at our dinner gathering turned up positive and I started to feel crappy. I tested every day for 5 days - all negative. One of the women's own daughter felt crappy and did a pcr test (negative). In retrospect, I think the feeling crappy part was my body doing its job to fight off the virus. Like when we get a booster.
But yes, time will tell. Hope you feel better soon. My ass was DRAGGING hard and all I wanted to do was sleep.
This happened with my gf and her mother. I woke up sick with covid on New Years day.... in my gf's bed at her parents house where we spent the entire night before. My gf and her mother after I told them I was sick, they said they felt sick. Their PCR tests negative and mine was positive.
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Really sorry to hear about your situation, Chad. The fact that you and I differ on our individual risk assessment aside, I understand and respect that your level of concern is very high, and I sincerely hope that if you end up having been infected, that you and yours are in the majority that passes through this with little to no adverse impact. Hang in there, buddy.
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Sucks to hear you have symptoms Chad. Hope it's not too bad for you. I guess all you can do know is wait it out and then get back to it. A couple of days and you'll be fine again.
It's great to take your precautions so serious but I learned, if you're gonna get you're gonna get it. You just work through it and treat it like any other sickness.
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And to answer your question Tim... yes, both jingle.kids suffered from asthmas as children. It's largely a non-issue, but who knows how they'd handle a respiratory virus.
Gotcha.
My youngest also has asthma. After he got his booster, his asthma really kicked up. His pediatrician sent him to an asthma doctor that blamed the booster, and has advised him and my wife to not get the second booster.
I'm not sure how I feel about that. My wife is comfortable with him not getting it.
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Really sorry to hear about your situation, Chad. The fact that you and I differ on our individual risk assessment aside, I understand and respect that your level of concern is very high, and I sincerely hope that if you end up having been infected, that you and yours are in the majority that passes through this with little to no adverse impact. Hang in there, buddy.
Thanks Bosk. I really appreciate those words.
Perhaps mischaracterizing what my level of concern is. It really isn't something I'm overly concerned about for my own wellbeing - it's the impact to the rest of the jingle.family who potentially are impacted by my actions.
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Yeah but there's a time and place for everything. And there's responding to what was actually posted. If I come here posting an argument about how people other than myself should be handling the possibility of getting covid, masking or not, going here but not there, etc, then ok, maybe I'm asking for an argument/debate/what have you. If come here posting that I've been exposed and am concerned for myself or my family (which I suppose I've just learned not to do), then make me a cup of online tea, play me some Katatonia, wish me the best, and pull up a chair in case I want to continue talking about it.
I'd generally agree with you if it werent for the years of these two often debating about covid. I also didnt, and mostly havent (although there have been times...), read their arguments as aggressive or harsh on each other so I didn't really take it the way you seem to have. I think it's safe to say we all want to see Chad recover and everyone wishes him and his family the best.
I'm not at all trying to imply that your last sentence isn't true - I'm sure it is. But for the rest I guess we'll agree to disagree. My comments weren't only directed towards Stadler's. I just think there's a time for everything and the appropriate response to something like this is support. Similar to what Bosk posted below.
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Winner winner, chicken dinner. Positive COVID test. Not sure if the first two tests came back negative because I did the full back-of-the-pallette swab. This time, I did just the nasal passage, and it came up double-bar.
As for the rest. We all good. Stads and I are keyboard sparring partners the way 9 and 11 year old brothers rough-house with one another. It's all good with me, and I'm 100% certain he'd say the same.
Some of the above comments were a bit of a poke-in-the-eye with their (unintended I'm certain) dismissiveness, but again... we all good.
6 more days of masking and isolating. Yay me!
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Hope its a mild one. Get well soon.
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Winner winner, chicken dinner. Positive COVID test. Not sure if the first two tests came back negative because I did the full back-of-the-pallette swab. This time, I did just the nasal passage, and it came up double-bar.
Not happy to hear you got it, but hopefully it will give you more confidence going forward about the whole thing.
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Feel better Chad, I apologize if my comments were poorly timed and received.
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Winner winner, chicken dinner. Positive COVID test. Not sure if the first two tests came back negative because I did the full back-of-the-pallette swab. This time, I did just the nasal passage, and it came up double-bar.
Not happy to hear you got it, but hopefully it will give you more confidence going forward about the whole thing.
I agree, Chad, sounds awful but getting it might actually be a helpful thing for you long term. Hopefully, it will make things easier and make you more confident to live with it being out there going forward. You'll come out the other side and it might calm your nerves. Accept it and get better and you'll be back at 100% before you know it. It's easy for me to say because mine was mild but I didn't think much of it and was back in a couple of days. I was never scared of it though and as I've said before, an unpopular opinion but I'm not vaxxed and was fine so you'll be fine mate. Hope the family can avoid it.
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Damn, sorry to hear that. Hope you feel better soon.
Also, FWIW, I've been told that it is a good idea to let your doctor know you tested positive even with an at-home test. Both because there are antivirals available now and you have to start them early on and also because it will be in your record in case there is any reason you need it for insurance purposes, employment purposes, or disability purposes (on the statistically remote chance you have a longer than average bout of symptoms).
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Yes, you definitely have to let your doctor know.
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Winner winner, chicken dinner. Positive COVID test. Not sure if the first two tests came back negative because I did the full back-of-the-pallette swab. This time, I did just the nasal passage, and it came up double-bar.
As for the rest. We all good. Stads and I are keyboard sparring partners the way 9 and 11 year old brothers rough-house with one another. It's all good with me, and I'm 100% certain he'd say the same.
Some of the above comments were a bit of a poke-in-the-eye with their (unintended I'm certain) dismissiveness, but again... we all good.
6 more days of masking and isolating. Yay me!
1000% I'd say the same. And I'll repeat what I said before (that some people missed): Look, I'm not interested in arguing with you when your health is at stake, and the ONLY think I want you to take from my posts here is that when it comes to your health, I hope you and your family get through this relatively scott-free.
I really hope you get through this quickly and unscathed. I've got my fingers crossed for you and your family.
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Get well soon, Bro! You did everything you could to avoid it. Funny now that things have slowed, I think I know more people in my circle who have caught it than during the various peaks. That seems counterintuitive to me but it's true.
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Get well soon, Bro! You did everything you could to avoid it. Funny now that things have slowed, I think I know more people in my circle who have caught it than during the various peaks. That seems counterintuitive to me but it's true.
That's my experience as well.
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Get well soon, Bro! You did everything you could to avoid it. Funny now that things have slowed, I think I know more people in my circle who have caught it than during the various peaks. That seems counterintuitive to me but it's true.
That's because it hasn't really "slowed", but people are acting like it has.
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Get well soon, Bro! You did everything you could to avoid it. Funny now that things have slowed, I think I know more people in my circle who have caught it than during the various peaks. That seems counterintuitive to me but it's true.
That's because it hasn't really "slowed", but people are acting like it has.
QFT. Hospitalizations are down but the pandemic isn't over. I still don't know if I've ever had it. Never felt sick enough to get tested. :dunno:
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Get well soon, Bro! You did everything you could to avoid it. Funny now that things have slowed, I think I know more people in my circle who have caught it than during the various peaks. That seems counterintuitive to me but it's true.
That's because it hasn't really "slowed", but people are acting like it has.
QFT. Hospitalizations are down but the pandemic isn't over. I still don't know if I've ever had it. Never felt sick enough to get tested. :dunno:
I REALLY want to take the antibody test. I read somewhere that something like 60% of Americans have the antibodies; I don't know if that includes the vaccine or if it's just a result of having been sick, but if the latter that means a LOT of people had it and didn't know about it.
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My understanding is both cause the antibody test to be positive. Not sure about the duration though.
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Get well soon, Bro! You did everything you could to avoid it. Funny now that things have slowed, I think I know more people in my circle who have caught it than during the various peaks. That seems counterintuitive to me but it's true.
That's because it hasn't really "slowed", but people are acting like it has.
The virus itself hasn't slowed, but a significant amount of the deaths/severe illness has slowed down (7 day death average in the US is at its lowest since last May). When even Fauci says the pandemic is over, I'm not sure there's much else to say here. We will be dealing with covid infections for the foreseeable future, maybe the rest of our lives and onward. The way people act is seemingly to the way covid is less impacting our daily lives.
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Get well soon, Bro! You did everything you could to avoid it. Funny now that things have slowed, I think I know more people in my circle who have caught it than during the various peaks. That seems counterintuitive to me but it's true.
That's because it hasn't really "slowed", but people are acting like it has.
Spot on. I'm sick as shit, but not sick enough to go to the hospital. And since (at least here in NA), there are no longer accurate case counts because most are testing at home with no way to officially report it, there's literally no idea of what the spread is. This 30-person event I was at ... 5 people have come down with it. 16% infection rate is pretty significant - and I'm not sure I'd say that COVID hasn't affected my daily life atm (along that of the rest of the jingle.family)
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Dammit Chad. Get better, pal.
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Get well soon, Bro! You did everything you could to avoid it. Funny now that things have slowed, I think I know more people in my circle who have caught it than during the various peaks. That seems counterintuitive to me but it's true.
That's because it hasn't really "slowed", but people are acting like it has.
QFT. Hospitalizations are down but the pandemic isn't over. I still don't know if I've ever had it. Never felt sick enough to get tested. :dunno:
I REALLY want to take the antibody test. I read somewhere that something like 60% of Americans have the antibodies; I don't know if that includes the vaccine or if it's just a result of having been sick, but if the latter that means a LOT of people had it and didn't know about it.
My brother and his wife had it, but made it through ok. So many different variables. He thinks it's all in the DNA, but it could vary among family members too. I've heard of people getting pretty sick just from the vaccine. Aches, pains, diarrhea, vomiting, practically the whole 9 yards.
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Never heard of throwing up and diarrhea but all the other stuff. It last only 1 day plus. 2 days the most. To me, I'd rather go though that so is lessens the damage the virus would do if I didn't have it. I'll assume at some point I'll get it as 60% have all ready.
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Edit .... 6 out of 30 now. 20% of people at this event caught COVID. So yeah, it ain't slowing down, but when only 1 out of 30 was wearing a mask (me), people are most certainly acting like there's nothing to worry about.
Bottom line... me taking my mask off for about 10 minutes at this event to sip a drink and eat some food has now led to 3 days (and counting) of being sick - this morning I couldn't function whatsoever. Isolating from my family for 10 days while wearing a mask in my own house. Kinda doesn't seem worth some nachos, a couple of slices of pizza, and a Jack-and-Ginger.
But, now I've gotten it, so there won't be a cloud hanging over me for sometime about whether I can / will catch it - even though Omicron has the capability of double-infecting people.
@ Dubleagent.... my experience - the brief "sickness" from the vacc absolutely pales in comparison to the sickness from the virus. And this is "supposedly" a mild case given that I'm an otherwise healthy 50-year old, triple-vacc'd individual.
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Hang in there Chad.
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I haven't been going out hardly at all. Masks are one thing, but distancing is the key. I was never too crazy about breathing the same air as others even before the pandemic. So, there it is...
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Hang in there Chad.
I'm hangin, man
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Bottom line... me taking my mask off for about 10 minutes at this event to sip a drink and eat some food has now led to 3 days (and counting) of being sick - this morning I couldn't function whatsoever. Isolating from my family for 10 days while wearing a mask in my own house. Kinda doesn't seem worth some nachos, a couple of slices of pizza, and a Jack-and-Ginger.
You most likely would have caught it regardless of that 10 minutes or not. Masks primarily prevent you from spreading, they do a much worse job at protection.
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Feel better, dude.
I just had to get a rapid test since my brother (who went to Morsefest with me this weekend and who I went to dinner with last night) tested positive this morning. It came back negative, but it could be a false negative, so I will be masking the rest of the week to be on the safe side in regards to those around me. I feel like I have the flu today, so who the hell knows.
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Hope you are back to 100% soon Chad!
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Hang in there Chad.
I'm hangin, man
That's what she said...
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Just to throw my own experience in here, I tested positive for covid last Friday. Wasn't too surprised about it considering I attended three concerts and one PAX East-adjacent party within the span of a single week.
I'm vaccinated with J&J and have a single Moderna booster. I would say my immune system is well above average; the only time other than this I remember being substantially sick within the past decade was my senior year of college after I went without sleep for at least 40 hours.
I started with a scratchy throat on Wednesday, which developed into a sore throat and a mild fever the next day. On Friday morning my throat and fever felt even worse so I took a test and it was positive. That day was definitely the worst, though my fever was only 99.8 degrees. Saturday started off about the same but my fever started to improve towards the end of the day. By Sunday my fever was pretty much gone and my throat, while still sore, was better as well. All and all I was only really sick for a couple days. I felt much more sick the night after my first vaccine, though that was limited to a single night.
The most concerning thing for me is that my sense of smell is pretty much gone now. Not completely, but enough to the point where I can barely get a whiff of my deoderant when putting my nose right up against the stick. Most people apparently get it back within a couple weeks, but with how lucky I've been with the rest of my recovery, I hope I don't end up one of those people who lose it for a year or even more.
Assuming I get my sense of smell back before long, I don't regret my actions. I'm not the kind of person who'd avoid doing activities I enjoy to avoid the possibility of getting sick. But I also recognize I'm in a position where I can afford to get sick (I'm young, pretty healthy, and live alone) and not everyone is fortunate enough to be in that situation.
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That stinks Buddy.
(You'll have to take my word for it.)
Sorry.
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:neverusethis:
If I were a plumber or a mortician I'd probably be happy about it.
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Edit .... 6 out of 30 now. 20% of people at this event caught COVID. So yeah, it ain't slowing down, but when only 1 out of 30 was wearing a mask (me), people are most certainly acting like there's nothing to worry about.
Bottom line... me taking my mask off for about 10 minutes at this event to sip a drink and eat some food has now led to 3 days (and counting) of being sick - this morning I couldn't function whatsoever. Isolating from my family for 10 days while wearing a mask in my own house. Kinda doesn't seem worth some nachos, a couple of slices of pizza, and a Jack-and-Ginger.
But, now I've gotten it, so there won't be a cloud hanging over me for sometime about whether I can / will catch it - even though Omicron has the capability of double-infecting people.
@ Dubleagent.... my experience - the brief "sickness" from the vacc absolutely pales in comparison to the sickness from the virus. And this is "supposedly" a mild case given that I'm an otherwise healthy 50-year old, triple-vacc'd individual.
Jesus, that's shit man. Hope you get through it quick.
Funny how it affects people differently as I mentioned I was a bit crook but didn't spend any additional time and still went about my business, albeit working from home for 2 days.
To the last point, does anyone have any idea why someone not vaxxed like myself can get COVID and be sick but still fully function like normal yet a majority of the vaxxed people I know at work had it worse? I'm not trying to stir shit, just generally intrigued.
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Kade, I think that speaks to the unpredictability and unknown-ness of the virus. I mean, people are right to be weary of it, but it just seems so random. My wife and I have basically worked 5-6 days a week through the whole thing..me at a fucking grocery store, and my wife at an assisted living facility, and we've both been clean.
Bubble Chad has some pizza with guys on his brand new job, and BAM, he gets it. I mean, it's fucked.
People range from asymptomatic to being the "sickest I've ever been in my life".
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To the last point, does anyone have any idea why someone not vaxxed like myself can get COVID and be sick but still fully function like normal yet a majority of the vaxxed people I know at work had it worse? I'm not trying to stir shit, just generally intrigued.
We don't know why (yet). If I were a betting man, I'd wager it has to do with genetics.
Many people get Covid and are completely asymptomatic. IIRC around 40%.
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To the last point, does anyone have any idea why someone not vaxxed like myself can get COVID and be sick but still fully function like normal yet a majority of the vaxxed people I know at work had it worse? I'm not trying to stir shit, just generally intrigued.
We don't know why (yet). If I were a betting man, I'd wager it has to do with genetics.
Many people get Covid and are completely asymptomatic. IIRC around 40%.
Genetics was my simple guess also. I've never really been the sick kind and have had no vaccinations for anything for years. I think some are just lucky.
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Dude, life is all about luck.
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Dude, life is all about luck.
Fuck, I should know that more than anyone! :lol
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Dude, life is all about luck.
Fuck, I should know that more than anyone! :lol
I didn't want to say it..but yes. We all should know it.
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Completely random is what it is. When millions die, thousands have long COVID, and all the other points made - there’s no rhyme or reason to it.
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Completely random is what it is. When millions die, thousands have long COVID, and all the other points made - there’s no rhyme or reason to it.
True mate.
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Completely random is what it is. When millions die, thousands have long COVID, and all the other points made - there’s no rhyme or reason to it.
True mate.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/855/914/ca4.jpg)
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Edit .... 6 out of 30 now. 20% of people at this event caught COVID. So yeah, it ain't slowing down, but when only 1 out of 30 was wearing a mask (me), people are most certainly acting like there's nothing to worry about.
Bottom line... me taking my mask off for about 10 minutes at this event to sip a drink and eat some food has now led to 3 days (and counting) of being sick - this morning I couldn't function whatsoever. Isolating from my family for 10 days while wearing a mask in my own house. Kinda doesn't seem worth some nachos, a couple of slices of pizza, and a Jack-and-Ginger.
But, now I've gotten it, so there won't be a cloud hanging over me for sometime about whether I can / will catch it - even though Omicron has the capability of double-infecting people.
@ Dubleagent.... my experience - the brief "sickness" from the vacc absolutely pales in comparison to the sickness from the virus. And this is "supposedly" a mild case given that I'm an otherwise healthy 50-year old, triple-vacc'd individual.
Jesus, that's shit man. Hope you get through it quick.
Funny how it affects people differently as I mentioned I was a bit crook but didn't spend any additional time and still went about my business, albeit working from home for 2 days.
To the last point, does anyone have any idea why someone not vaxxed like myself can get COVID and be sick but still fully function like normal yet a majority of the vaxxed people I know at work had it worse? I'm not trying to stir shit, just generally intrigued.
My guess is because people are just that unique and everyone's health is vastly different from one another. A persons health is based on whatever they decide to do to their own body, and some people have chosen to do detrimental damage to their own bodies. Genes also play a role on a persons development of health issues as well.
Many doctors have said, if one is concerned about where their health truly lies and what issues they may have with their body, to go see them. When people go to the doctors, they fear what they might be told is wrong with them. I would hope that a person doesn't lie to them and tells them everything about their body, as a wrong diagnosis can also have a detrimental effect to a persons health.
I do wonder if people didn't even know their health was that bad until they ended up getting severe symptoms of covid.
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Edit .... 6 out of 30 now. 20% of people at this event caught COVID. So yeah, it ain't slowing down, but when only 1 out of 30 was wearing a mask (me), people are most certainly acting like there's nothing to worry about.
Bottom line... me taking my mask off for about 10 minutes at this event to sip a drink and eat some food has now led to 3 days (and counting) of being sick - this morning I couldn't function whatsoever. Isolating from my family for 10 days while wearing a mask in my own house. Kinda doesn't seem worth some nachos, a couple of slices of pizza, and a Jack-and-Ginger.
But, now I've gotten it, so there won't be a cloud hanging over me for sometime about whether I can / will catch it - even though Omicron has the capability of double-infecting people.
@ Dubleagent.... my experience - the brief "sickness" from the vacc absolutely pales in comparison to the sickness from the virus. And this is "supposedly" a mild case given that I'm an otherwise healthy 50-year old, triple-vacc'd individual.
I hope you turn the corner real soon and start feeling better.
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Edit .... 6 out of 30 now. 20% of people at this event caught COVID. So yeah, it ain't slowing down, but when only 1 out of 30 was wearing a mask (me), people are most certainly acting like there's nothing to worry about.
Bottom line... me taking my mask off for about 10 minutes at this event to sip a drink and eat some food has now led to 3 days (and counting) of being sick - this morning I couldn't function whatsoever. Isolating from my family for 10 days while wearing a mask in my own house. Kinda doesn't seem worth some nachos, a couple of slices of pizza, and a Jack-and-Ginger.
But, now I've gotten it, so there won't be a cloud hanging over me for sometime about whether I can / will catch it - even though Omicron has the capability of double-infecting people.
@ Dubleagent.... my experience - the brief "sickness" from the vacc absolutely pales in comparison to the sickness from the virus. And this is "supposedly" a mild case given that I'm an otherwise healthy 50-year old, triple-vacc'd individual.
Jesus, that's shit man. Hope you get through it quick.
Funny how it affects people differently as I mentioned I was a bit crook but didn't spend any additional time and still went about my business, albeit working from home for 2 days.
To the last point, does anyone have any idea why someone not vaxxed like myself can get COVID and be sick but still fully function like normal yet a majority of the vaxxed people I know at work had it worse? I'm not trying to stir shit, just generally intrigued.
My guess is because people are just that unique and everyone's health is vastly different from one another. A persons health is based on whatever they decide to do to their own body, and some people have chosen to do detrimental damage to their own bodies. Genes also play a role on a persons development of health issues as well.
Many doctors have said, if one is concerned about where their health truly lies and what issues they may have with their body, to go see them. When people go to the doctors, they fear what they might be told is wrong with them. I would hope that a person doesn't lie to them and tells them everything about their body, as a wrong diagnosis can also have a detrimental effect to a persons health.
I do wonder if people didn't even know their health was that bad until they ended up getting severe symptoms of covid.
While I get all that, I think genetics is probably more the play. Of course what people do to their bodies may have an effect but I've seen fit younger people get it worse than middle aged females who are overweight.
Plus, what I know of Chad, he's a fit dude who looks after himself well, so cases like that make me think it's just pure luck and genetics. I just wasn't sure if there was any actual research behind it all as I don't really follow COVID news and findings.
And what do you mean, are you saying a doctor would lie and give a wrong diagnosis? I don't understand. Speaking of general practitioners, I haven't been to one in over 10 years........probably should do something about that.
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Obviously, underlying health issues often have a big impact on the severity of infection wrt COVID, but as Kade said, my general / overall health is about as ideal as it can be for a 50 year old male.
Starting Day 4, and I'm no worse than I was when I went to bed last night - which is a helluva lot more than I can say about yesterday morning.
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Obviously, underlying health issues often have a big impact on the severity of infection wrt COVID, but as Kade said, my general / overall health is about as ideal as it can be for a 50 year old male.
Starting Day 4, and I'm no worse than I was when I went to bed last night - which is a helluva lot more than I can say about yesterday morning.
Day 4, surely you're coming around the final couple of bends mate. Hang in there!
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Obviously, underlying health issues often have a big impact on the severity of infection wrt COVID, but as Kade said, my general / overall health is about as ideal as it can be for a 50 year old male.
Starting Day 4, and I'm no worse than I was when I went to bed last night - which is a helluva lot more than I can say about yesterday morning.
Day 4, surely you're coming around the final couple of bends mate. Hang in there!
I had a work colleague that was hit hard for 10 days, and another who said he was suffering with some minor lingering symptoms for a month. I'm just taking this one day at a time, and glad this morning is better than yesterdays.
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Obviously, underlying health issues often have a big impact on the severity of infection wrt COVID, but as Kade said, my general / overall health is about as ideal as it can be for a 50 year old male.
Starting Day 4, and I'm no worse than I was when I went to bed last night - which is a helluva lot more than I can say about yesterday morning.
Day 4, surely you're coming around the final couple of bends mate. Hang in there!
I had a work colleague that was hit hard for 10 days, and another who said he was suffering with some minor lingering symptoms for a month. I'm just taking this one day at a time, and glad this morning is better than yesterdays.
Even though mine was super mild, I had lingering fatigue for over a week. Wasn't anything that affected daily routine though. I went back to weight training 6 days after getting it (yes, idiot I know) and got gassed super easy. Just knocked up really quick.
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I wouldn't say one's covid's symptoms are exactly random, although it certainly seems like that. I'd probably say genetics, current health/age, and viral load all play a role.
Starting Day 4, and I'm no worse than I was when I went to bed last night - which is a helluva lot more than I can say about yesterday morning.
Damn, you got it pretty bad it seems, but hang in there and you'll recover soon. I had about 7 days of symptoms but after the first 2 days (when the fever broke) I probably would have returned to work if it weren't for covid protocols because it just felt like a really bad cold. A lot of us had the lingering exhaustion so you may expect that once all the initial symptoms disappear. I'm sure the isolation in your home away from your family is tough too, I know a few of my friends struggled with that part of their illness.
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I worked with a woman who's husband caught Covid. She still slept with him at night, and she never caught it.
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I worked with a woman who's husband caught Covid. She still slept with him at night, and she never caught it.
Yeah, my parents didn't separate when my mom got it a couple months ago but my dad never got it.
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I still feel awful - fever, chills, minor cough, etc. - so I will get another rapid test tomorrow. Probably can't go back to the office until a second test comes back negative as well. Working from home again today.
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I still feel awful - fever, chills, minor cough, etc. - so I will get another rapid test tomorrow. Probably can't go back to the office until a second test comes back negative as well. Working from home again today.
Sounds like you got it, maybe get a PCR test since the rapids aren't too accurate for? Either way, rest up and feel better.
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Still can't believe I didn't get the cough, especially considering I smoked for 25 years
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Well, I avoided it for 25 months (plus whenever it really was here), but I officially tested positive for COVID this morning. :( :(
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Well, I avoided it for 25 months (plus whenever it really was here), but I officially tested positive for COVID this morning. :( :(
Sorry to hear that Kev. We popped our cherry the same week.
Most of my symptoms seem to be fading... just very light headed today (which could have something to do with only getting about 3-4 hours sleep).
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I managed to sleep from about 9:30pm to 6 am, which is pretty darn good for me, so I think all of that sleep helped. I felt awful when I woke up, but do not feel quite as awful now. Still not good, just not as awful.
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Dammit. I feel bad for both of you. I hope you both mend soon.
Just trying to be helpful here, but I read an article by the CDC that running song polls does wonders for one's COVID symptoms. Iron Maiden! Top 100! :) :) :) :)
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Dammit. I feel bad for both of you. I hope you both mend soon.
Just trying to be helpful here, but I read an article by the CDC that running song polls does wonders for one's COVID symptoms. Iron Maiden! Top 100! :) :) :) :)
Patience, good sir. That is next after we finish VH. :metal :metal
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Dammit. I feel bad for both of you. I hope you both mend soon.
Just trying to be helpful here, but I read an article by the CDC that running song polls does wonders for one's COVID symptoms. Iron Maiden! Top 100! :) :) :) :)
Patience, good sir. That is next after we finish VH. :metal :metal
I know this is the wrong place, but your avatar made me think of it: I watched the SNL where Taylor did the 10-minute "All Too Well"; what a tremendous performance.
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I know this is the wrong place, but your avatar made me think of it: I watched the SNL where Taylor did the 10-minute "All Too Well"; what a tremendous performance.
Hell yeah! I may need to watch that later to pep up some from this covid blahness.
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Covid problems:
Awoke from a long nap around 6:45 pm and had to pee. I didn't go till just now (around 8:50) simply because I didn't have the energy or strength to get up and go. And going all over myself seemed unwise. :lol :lol
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Damn.
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.
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Damn.
Yep - my advice to you is that every time you get up, make yourself a strong screwdriver time of day be damned.
Remember, you need your vitamin C. :hat
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Covid problems:
Awoke from a long nap around 6:45 pm and had to pee. I didn't go till just now (around 8:50) simply because I didn't have the energy or strength to get up and go. And going all over myself seemed unwise. :lol :lol
Yeah, that's what hit me the most was just that complete lack of energy. For me it lasted two days tops.
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Covid problems:
Awoke from a long nap around 6:45 pm and had to pee. I didn't go till just now (around 8:50) simply because I didn't have the energy or strength to get up and go. And going all over myself seemed unwise. :lol :lol
Depends; how old is the couch? :)
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Covid problems:
Awoke from a long nap around 6:45 pm and had to pee. I didn't go till just now (around 8:50) simply because I didn't have the energy or strength to get up and go. And going all over myself seemed unwise. :lol :lol
Yeah, that's what hit me the most was just that complete lack of energy. For me it lasted two days tops.
This is day 4 for me (since Tuesday was really when I started to feel depleted) and my energy level is still pretty low.
The good news is, the fever seems to be totally gone and my throat isn't quite as sore, although I think the latter could be drainage could be coating my throat making it less like dry like when getting over a cold or sinus infection, but the nausea, and some of the fun that can sometimes go along with that, has been terrible this morning.
Covid problems:
Awoke from a long nap around 6:45 pm and had to pee. I didn't go till just now (around 8:50) simply because I didn't have the energy or strength to get up and go. And going all over myself seemed unwise. :lol :lol
Depends; how old is the couch? :)
Haha, the nap was in my normal comfy bed. That is the one fringe benefit of this: I busted out the electronic blanket and leave it on, so when I crawl into bed to sleep, given the chills I have had all week, getting under those warm covers feels pretty awesome. :hat :hat
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I still have a bit of a stuffy nose and get tired when standing for more than eight seconds, but I am definitely not as sick as I was a few days ago. This being quarantined in my condo for a few more days may drive me crazy :lol, but it is what it is. I had zero issues with breathing, and have had no loss of taste or smell, so I guess I should feel pretty lucky.
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Glad you're starting to feel a little better - hopefully you'll start to get some energy back.
I hope you're doing better as well Jingle.
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Glad you're starting to feel a little better - hopefully you'll start to get some energy back.
I hope you're doing better as well Jingle.
I am. At this point (still tested positive yesterday), it's just a bit of chest congestion, and the occasional runny nose. Thanks for asking Chris. If not for the fact I'm still shedding the virus, I could definitely resume 'normal' activities. Such as it is, I'm still masking and isolating until I know there's no chance to infect the rest of the jingle.family.
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Covid problems:
Awoke from a long nap around 6:45 pm and had to pee. I didn't go till just now (around 8:50) simply because I didn't have the energy or strength to get up and go. And going all over myself seemed unwise. :lol :lol
Depends; how old is the couch? :)
I think you may have solved his problem, Stads. ;)
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Haven't popped in this thread in a bit......sorry to hear it was Chad and Kev's turn to get this thing. Good to see/read that you guys are battling it well. The exhaustion and feeling weak is definitely the symptom that is the most strange to experience. Here's to both of you getting back to full health soon! :tup
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Haven't popped in this thread in a bit......sorry to hear it was Chad and Kev's turn to get this thing. Good to see/read that you guys are battling it well. The exhaustion and feeling weak is definitely the symptom that is the most strange to experience. Here's to both of you getting back to full health soon! :tup
Woke up this morning without a tight chest for the first time in a week. Still some fairly mild coughing, but it should be just a matter of days before the worst of these symptoms are gone. Then we'll see how the energy/fatigue is once I start trying to get back to exercising.
Hopefully I can get a couple negative tests by the weekend, and get back into general population within my own house. :lol
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start trying to get back to exercising.
I wish you luck with this, truly. I've lamented in the exercise thread about what Covid did to my motivation to exercise. I ran 5 miles 3-5 days a week prior to catching Covid for the first time in December of 2020. Since then, my desire and motivation to get out and run has vanished. I've thrown in three half marathons since then but with little to no training....and I still play hockey for three hours every sunday, but my point is where there once wasn't an issue getting motivated to get out and run there now lies an issue getting myself to go do it.
Maybe it coincides with ageing and the fact I've thrown a lot of miles on my legs since 2008.....whatever the reason it was never an issue until AFTER I had Covid the first time.
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Haven't popped in this thread in a bit......sorry to hear it was Chad and Kev's turn to get this thing. Good to see/read that you guys are battling it well. The exhaustion and feeling weak is definitely the symptom that is the most strange to experience. Here's to both of you getting back to full health soon! :tup
Woke up this morning without a tight chest for the first time in a week. Still some fairly mild coughing, but it should be just a matter of days before the worst of these symptoms are gone. Then we'll see how the energy/fatigue is once I start trying to get back to exercising.
Hopefully I can get a couple negative tests by the weekend, and get back into general population within my own house. :lol
Still a week away from Dr Strange I'd imagine.
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Haven't popped in this thread in a bit......sorry to hear it was Chad and Kev's turn to get this thing. Good to see/read that you guys are battling it well. The exhaustion and feeling weak is definitely the symptom that is the most strange to experience. Here's to both of you getting back to full health soon! :tup
Woke up this morning without a tight chest for the first time in a week. Still some fairly mild coughing, but it should be just a matter of days before the worst of these symptoms are gone. Then we'll see how the energy/fatigue is once I start trying to get back to exercising.
Hopefully I can get a couple negative tests by the weekend, and get back into general population within my own house. :lol
Still a week away from Dr Strange I'd imagine.
Unfortunately. Best case, Thursday; most likely, next Monday.
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Haven't popped in this thread in a bit......sorry to hear it was Chad and Kev's turn to get this thing. Good to see/read that you guys are battling it well. The exhaustion and feeling weak is definitely the symptom that is the most strange to experience. Here's to both of you getting back to full health soon! :tup
Thanks, man!
I am still exhausted and have a slightly stuffy nose, but otherwise I am mostly back to normal, though I notice my carpal tunnel syndrome, which has been 90% better in the last year, has been acting up again the last few days, so I guess that is a side effect of having had covid. Back to doing my daily exercises for that, I guess.
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My CTS got a lot better when I started regularly taking vitamin d.
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I'm on Day 12 post exposure / Day 10 post symptoms onset / Day 8 post positive test ...still tested positive today
sniffles and occasional coughing still. The damn thing just lingers on. I'll test again Saturday and hope that I get my first not-positive test.
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I'm on Day 12 post exposure / Day 10 post symptoms onset / Day 8 post positive test ...still tested positive today
sniffles and occasional coughing still. The damn thing just lingers on. I'll test again Saturday and hope that I get my first not-positive test.
Wow Chad!
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I'm on Day 12 post exposure / Day 10 post symptoms onset / Day 8 post positive test ...still tested positive today
sniffles and occasional coughing still. The damn thing just lingers on. I'll test again Saturday and hope that I get my first not-positive test.
Wow Chad!
Wow what? You sound surprised. This isn't terribly uncommon.
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I'm on Day 12 post exposure / Day 10 post symptoms onset / Day 8 post positive test ...still tested positive today
sniffles and occasional coughing still. The damn thing just lingers on. I'll test again Saturday and hope that I get my first not-positive test.
Wow Chad!
Wow what? You sound surprised. This isn't terribly uncommon.
Just wow. That's all. :lol
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I'm on Day 12 post exposure / Day 10 post symptoms onset / Day 8 post positive test ...still tested positive today
sniffles and occasional coughing still. The damn thing just lingers on. I'll test again Saturday and hope that I get my first not-positive test.
Wow Chad!
Wow what? You sound surprised. This isn't terribly uncommon.
Yes, quite common. I think was isn't totally known is how infectious you are if you are still testing positive. I've read after 10 days you "probably" are no longer infectious. Which still doesn't make sense that employers and schools welcome people back after 5 days.
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It's 5 days if no temp and you test negative.
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And then all you have to worry about is the possibility of ‘brain fog’ and hair loss for a couple of months.
Not trying to be a downer for you, but to wake up some of the naysayers around these parts. As a former smoker for decades, I am petrified about getting this, as I await my second booster shot. Yeah , I’ll survive, but what will I be able to do afterwards.
Keep fighting the good fights, Chad and Kev👍
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It's 5 days if no temp and you test negative.
Not in our schools and not at my job. 5 days and asymptomatic and you are good to go. They do not require a retest.
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I've wondered about the science behind the 5 days asymptomatic rule. But yeah, 8 days of positive is fairly normal. I think I was negative by day 7 but had symptoms for about 10 days. I was shocked I was negative on day 7 but who knows with at home tests. Work didn't need me back that badly so I quarantined a total of 10 days to be safe. You are getting better so that's the good news.
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I read you can still test positive even a week or two after all your symptoms are gone. Not sure how true that is. Over here we don't need a negative test to go back to normal. Just once we are symptom free.
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And then all you have to worry about is the possibility of ‘brain fog’ and hair loss for a couple of months.
I didn't even need COVID for that!
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I read you can still test positive even a week or two after all your symptoms are gone. Not sure how true that is. Over here we don't need a negative test to go back to normal. Just once we are symptom free.
Oh, I'm sure of that. Again, there's no rhyme or reason to the symptoms, or how long it can take to fully expel the virus. So long as I'm testing positive though, I'm not going in to general population. I'll say this though, my first positive test, the line was dark - almost black. The test I took on Saturday, more orange. The test I took today, a very faint orange. My 'positivity' is clearly waning, so hopefully by the weekend I'm out of solitary confinement. :lol
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Aside from a tiny sniffle and still feeling like someone beat me up, I feel mostly fine now.
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Aside from a tiny sniffle and still feeling like someone beat me up, I feel mostly fine now.
I've heard a lot of people talk about being god awful fatigued. You have any of that?
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Pretty much, yes. I am perpetually sleepy anyway :lol, but I still feel physically exhausted.
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And then all you have to worry about is the possibility of ‘brain fog’ and hair loss for a couple of months.
I didn't even need COVID for that!
Haha, might use that as my excuse from now on.
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Pretty much, yes. I am perpetually sleepy anyway :lol, but I still feel physically exhausted.
It took me about 3 weeks to fully get over the exhaustion but I my workouts were still compromised.
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Aside from a tiny sniffle and still feeling like someone beat me up, I feel mostly fine now.
I've heard a lot of people talk about being god awful fatigued. You have any of that?
That was the main thing I felt. Barely any of the other symptoms, but walking from the bedroom to the kitchen would wear me down instantly.
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And then all you have to worry about is the possibility of ‘brain fog’ and hair loss for a couple of months.
I didn't even need COVID for that!
😀
A good sign that you still have your sense of humor 👍
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Aside from a tiny sniffle and still feeling like someone beat me up, I feel mostly fine now.
I've heard a lot of people talk about being god awful fatigued. You have any of that?
That was the main thing I felt. Barely any of the other symptoms, but walking from the bedroom to the kitchen would wear me down instantly.
The first bout of Covid I had in December of 20' the fatigue was brutal. I described it then like gravity was about 10x what it normally would be....every movement was just lagging and dragging and was exhausted to walk any distance and would just plop and melt into the couch or bed. That lasted a solid 4-5 days.
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That's the one thing my brother said when he had it. It was like a really bad cold, but wearing a 100lb flak jacket. He couldn't walk to the mailbox without being gassed.
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Very thankful I've had none of that. Was light-headed and in a bit of a fog one day last week, but that's it.
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Very thankful I've had none of that. Was light-headed and in a bit of a fog one day last week, but that's it.
I'd bet that's because you're vaxed. I wasn't vaxed in 20' and it was rough symptoms......got Covid in December of 21' also but was vaxed and it was literally like a day or two of runny nose and some coughing...light cold symptoms really.
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I have either never had it yet, or I did at some point and was asymptomatic. :dunno:
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Hoping everyone here gets healed with no long covid symptoms.
Over 13K cases in FL yesterday. Here we go again.
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Hoping everyone here gets healed with no long covid symptoms.
Over 13K cases in FL yesterday. Here we go again.
And that's just the ones you know about.
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My CTS got a lot better when I started regularly taking vitamin d.
Your CTS?
I have been reading and seeing a few videos regarding the positive effects of taking vitamin D for long covid.
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Hoping everyone here gets healed with no long covid symptoms.
Same here. Get well peeps. :tup
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Very thankful I've had none of that. Was light-headed and in a bit of a fog one day last week, but that's it.
Now you’re describing every day of my life
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Looks like NJ's cases are starting to, or maybe have, peaked for this wave. 7 day average for the state has been consistent at just under 5k cases a day for about a week now. I kind of expect these to start dropping soon and for the rest of the summer to be pretty calm until the fall for the next wave, at least locally. Just my guess, looks like covid is pretty low in the UK right now and we have seemed to follow them by a month or two.
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Very thankful I've had none of that. Was light-headed and in a bit of a fog one day last week, but that's it.
Now you’re describing every day of my life
Take it to the weed thread hippies.
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We need to implement liking posts somehow. Y'all are too funny today. :lol
But likewise, I haven't tested positive for covid yet. I've been pretty sick a few times, but no hard evidence it was the plague. Knocking on wood that remains the case.
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I lost my sense of taste for 72 hours a week and a half ago..
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I lost my sense of taste for 72 hours a week and a half ago..
But you’ve lost your sense of musical taste for much longer than that.
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(https://c.tenor.com/wIGmhtjCB7cAAAAC/ohsnap-wilsmith.gif)
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I lost my sense of taste for 72 hours a week and a half ago..
But you’ve lost your sense of musical taste for much longer than that.
Lost?
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Damn.... :lol
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:lol
I knew that was coming.
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I lost my sense of taste for 72 hours a week and a half ago..
But you’ve lost your sense of musical taste for much longer than that.
The empathy in this post is second to none. :lol
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I called it though, didn’t I? :lol
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Ouch!
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I called it though, didn’t I? :lol
:lol
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TACPOX
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Well it finally happened. Tested positive this morning. Woke up feeling dizzy with a headache, body aches, a cough. Likely caught it at a Clutch concert this past Sunday.
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Hope it's a relatively short and unobtrusive event for you
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My county is back up to High transmission rate, and masks are now recommended indoors again. :facepalm:
I was directly exposed to covid twice this week. Once on Monday night, at an outdoor girl scout meeting for my daughter. One of the girls tested positive on Tuesday morning. Not too concerned about that since we were all outside, even though the girls were all close to each other. The second was on Tuesday, when I sat in my boss' office with him. He tested positive yesterday. That is definitely more concerning to me, since we were both unmasked and sitting a couple of feet apart.
I have minor cold symptoms now, which started on Wednesday (my daughter complained of a sore throat over the weekend and stayed home from school due to cold symptoms on Monday. She tested negative). I tested negative yesterday and won't test again unless I show more symptoms in the next couple of days. I may just have the slight cold that my daughter had.
It is what it is. I find it amusing though because my boss asked me to start coming into the office more than once per week. So the only reason I got exposed is because he wanted me in the office more, and he ended up being the one exposing me to covid. :lol
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https://news.yahoo.com/mask-rules-suddenly-back-california-151004179.html
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/sacramento-school-district-returns-to-indoor-mask-mandate-due-to-local-covid-19-surge/ar-AAY1qgj
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/one-of-nj-s-largest-school-districts-reinstates-mandatory-masks-for-kids-and-teachers/ar-AAXYibY
https://collegenews.org/mask-mandates-reinstated-at-several-us-universities/
Good times.
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https://news.yahoo.com/mask-rules-suddenly-back-california-151004179.html
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/sacramento-school-district-returns-to-indoor-mask-mandate-due-to-local-covid-19-surge/ar-AAY1qgj
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/one-of-nj-s-largest-school-districts-reinstates-mandatory-masks-for-kids-and-teachers/ar-AAXYibY
https://collegenews.org/mask-mandates-reinstated-at-several-us-universities/
Good times.
Yup...county I live in fired up the indoor mandate yesterday. Went to an AA meeting last night, and they stated it at the beginning and passed them out. Of course there was the one ass who literally ranted about how the bill of rights was being trampled on blah blah...meeting secretary quickly shut him up by pointing out AA tradition 1 that states our common welfare comes first, personal recovery depends upon AA unity, and asked him to take such conversations outside the room. That shit stops at the door, and I fucking love it.
It is funny though, I have to wear them indoor where I'm at, but if I travel less than a half mile to the north, I'm in CoCo County and don't. Crazy times man.
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Probably for the Politics thread, but found out today WA state is in day number 826 of our Governor's State of Emergency.
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https://news.yahoo.com/mask-rules-suddenly-back-california-151004179.html
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/sacramento-school-district-returns-to-indoor-mask-mandate-due-to-local-covid-19-surge/ar-AAY1qgj
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/one-of-nj-s-largest-school-districts-reinstates-mandatory-masks-for-kids-and-teachers/ar-AAXYibY
https://collegenews.org/mask-mandates-reinstated-at-several-us-universities/
Good times.
Yup...county I live in fired up the indoor mandate yesterday. Went to an AA meeting last night, and they stated it at the beginning and passed them out. Of course there was the one ass who literally ranted about how the bill of rights was being trampled on blah blah...meeting secretary quickly shut him up by pointing out AA tradition 1 that states our common welfare comes first, personal recovery depends upon AA unity, and asked him to take such conversations outside the room. That shit stops at the door, and I fucking love it.
It is funny though, I have to wear them indoor where I'm at, but if I travel less than a half mile to the north, I'm in CoCo County and don't. Crazy times man.
It's a good thing the virus knows to spread itself differently in different counties! ::)
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Probably for the Politics thread, but found out today WA state is in day number 826 of our Governor's State of Emergency.
Yeah... Liberal leaders don't want to be the one to say it's over... But some point, it has to be over.
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So after running errands around town with the current reinstated health order in action, it's blatantly clear the majority of people are fucking over it and just are ignoring it. :lol
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Knock on wood but I made it through progpower USA without getting covid. Three tests now from the nose and throat came back negative, although I'll test again in a couple days.
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Knock on wood but I made it through progpower USA without getting covid. Three tests now from the nose and throat came back negative, although I'll test again in a couple days.
You took THREE TESTS?? Why, is that for work?
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Knock on wood but I made it through progpower USA without getting covid. Three tests now from the nose and throat came back negative, although I'll test again in a couple days.
You took THREE TESTS?? Why, is that for work?
With a fourth on the way.
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Knock on wood but I made it through progpower USA without getting covid. Three tests now from the nose and throat came back negative, although I'll test again in a couple days.
You took THREE TESTS?? Why, is that for work?
Virtually everyone I spoken to that's had Omicron COVID - and from my own personal experience - have at least 2 (my nephew had 5) negative tests before getting a positive one. I'd say if you're not symptomatic, no reason to test (unless required for work). I wasn't positive until my 3rd test - 4 days after exposure and 2 days after symptoms.
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I don't see what the problem is with testing frequently. I had to travel to O'Hare and spent over 5 days in Atlanta around thousands of people. I also took one test via the nose and the next day took one via throat sample because I heard people who had a negative with a nasal swab popped positive when they swabbed their throat. The third was actually my first test before I even left for the airport. The fourth will be done in a few days because I also heard it might not be detected for several days.
It's not a huge effort, they're at home tests that take seconds to do. It's not for work either, it's just out of concern. A lot of my friends and bands and crew members got covid during and after progpower including my girlfriend who has it badly right now. So I'm testing frequently. So far so good, no symptoms.
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OK. If your girl has it and you're a close contact, I get that. They way you posted was that you were just testing just because..
I suppose with these tests and their margin of error, you test enough, you'll eventually get a positive result.
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Too damn expensive to keep buying them to test yourself.
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To attend ProgPower, I went to where I always went when I had to get one every week to attend classes...CVS. The way it's done there is a self-swab in the nose. They don't even watch you, they just ask if you know how to do it, you say yes, and they go and do other stuff, like filling prescriptions for the people picking up in the next lane.
I just find that hilarious. Not including how everyone at ProgPower was going to various places throughout the city where their exposure is just as high as being at ProgPower, and no testing or vaccination card is required for such things. Such as the restaurants and being at the airport or the MARTA transit system.
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I've seen two positive tests posts so far from friends on Facebook who attended PPUSA. Fully expecting more. Good luck guys.
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Took my first ever Covid test yesterday. Was the last in our family to do so. Fortunately - and I mean that literally, as we are not living like hermits, we've just been lucky - no one here has ever tested positive. Wife insisted as my voice is a bit hoarse, though my throat is not sore at all.
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Test kits are still free us up here. I think we’ve got 8-10 boxes in the cupboard (5 tests in a box). They were giving them out like candy on Hallowe’en for a while.
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Test kits are still free us up here. I think we’ve got 8-10 boxes in the cupboard (5 tests in a box). They were giving them out like candy on Hallowe’en for a while.
Oh wow. They are like 10 bucks each over here.
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Test kits are still free us up here. I think we’ve got 8-10 boxes in the cupboard (5 tests in a box). They were giving them out like candy on Hallowe’en for a while.
Us too. I could for a while (don't know if I still can) drive up to the town Board of Education office and they will just hand them to you. Last time I went in, I asked for four boxes (2 in a box) and she came out with five "by mistake" and said "just take it, you'll use it!". Okay!
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I saw on facebook some people post about covid concerns after Progpower. I don't feel sick so I haven't tested myself.
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Me and like 2 of my close buddies I was around the whole fest are out here dodging positive results like Neo right now :lol
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Quit worrying.
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Quit worrying.
Seriously.
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Who said I'm worrying about anything? I'm not. If I get it then I get it. I just wanna know if I do.
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Who said I'm worrying about anything? I'm not. If I get it then I get it. I just wanna know if I do.
When you start coughing you "might" have it.
And why do you wanna know? If you're not showing symptoms, then what's the difference? And say you get it...then what?
Stop thinking about it and go about your life. At what point in our lives does a daily covid test become part of the morning routine? Shit, shower, coffee, covid test..
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Who said I'm worrying about anything? I'm not. If I get it then I get it. I just wanna know if I do.
Why?
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Test kits are still free us up here. I think we’ve got 8-10 boxes in the cupboard (5 tests in a box). They were giving them out like candy on Hallowe’en for a while.
Oh wow. They are like 10 bucks each over here.
Have a kid mate and fast track em into school and you'll have free ones coming out of your clacker :lol
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Test kits are still free us up here. I think we’ve got 8-10 boxes in the cupboard (5 tests in a box). They were giving them out like candy on Hallowe’en for a while.
Oh wow. They are like 10 bucks each over here.
Have a kid mate and fast track em into school and you'll have free ones coming out of your clacker :lol
Like Kade needs another reason to not have a kid.. :lol
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Test kits are still free us up here. I think we’ve got 8-10 boxes in the cupboard (5 tests in a box). They were giving them out like candy on Hallowe’en for a while.
Oh wow. They are like 10 bucks each over here.
Have a kid mate and fast track em into school and you'll have free ones coming out of your clacker :lol
True?! .......nah....still not worth it. ;D
Test kits are still free us up here. I think we’ve got 8-10 boxes in the cupboard (5 tests in a box). They were giving them out like candy on Hallowe’en for a while.
Oh wow. They are like 10 bucks each over here.
Have a kid mate and fast track em into school and you'll have free ones coming out of your clacker :lol
Like Kade needs another reason to not have a kid.. :lol
The list of reasons is already at capacity. :lol
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We got more free ones from the post office. When my wife saw them, she was like...OK how many do we have NOW? :lol
Er...12. :lol
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We got more free ones from the post office. When my wife saw them, she was like...OK how many do we have NOW? :lol
Er...12. :lol
Keep them. They may become a collectors item one day.
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My wife orders them periodically, I can't recall a time there weren't a bunch in the medicine cabinet. And since they have a shelf life they can't be stockpiled forever.
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Who said I'm worrying about anything? I'm not. If I get it then I get it. I just wanna know if I do.
Why?
I find this an odd response. I want to know if I caught the virus. That's it, that's the reason. Is something wrong with that?
I also work at a shipping facility with hundreds of employees... so it's nice to know if I have it before going in. Sorry if I sound perturbed but I was once dogged here for not wearing masks much anymore back in 21, but now I'm testing after a big fest and getting questioned about it? :lol
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Sorry if I sound perturbed but I was once dogged here for not wearing masks much anymore back in 21, but now I'm testing after a big fest and getting questioned about it? :lol
I thought so. And I certainly didn't dog you then, and I'm not dogging you now. I guess I was wondering what changed for you.
You just seem super concerned now about it.
I also work at a shipping facility with hundreds of employees...
Why would feel more susceptible at Progpower than you would at work with "hundreds of employees"?
Surely you don't test everyday after work, do you?
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Who said I'm worrying about anything? I'm not. If I get it then I get it. I just wanna know if I do.
Why?
I find this an odd response. I want to know if I caught the virus. That's it, that's the reason. Is something wrong with that?
I also work at a shipping facility with hundreds of employees... so it's nice to know if I have it before going in. Sorry if I sound perturbed but I was once dogged here for not wearing masks much anymore back in 21, but now I'm testing after a big fest and getting questioned about it? :lol
That certainly wouldn't have been me.
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Maybe he doesn't want to give it to his employees after getting it at ProgPower. Maybe he wants to know in case he's eligible for antivirals. Maybe he has relatives that he'll avoid seeing if he's positive. Etc, etc.
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My thinking all along is that everyone has their own level of comfort with this virus. A few people at work wore masks all day at work long after the requirement was dropped, but my thought was, if that made them comfortable, more power to them. Same for those who were fine going unmasked.
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Mike, I'm not trying to bust your balls. I'm really not. You can test where and whenever you want. But I find it interesting why people do things the way they do in regards to Covid. You struck me as someone that didn't seem all that concerned, or at least was accepting life as it was, so when you said you were testing daily, I noticed.
Maybe he has relatives that he'll avoid seeing if he's positive.
Then in that case, probably best to avoid them for the next couple of weeks anyway. Not sure what testing has to do with it. These tests aren't 100% accurate. Not even close.
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Aren't you contagious days before symptoms arise anyway? There's so much grey areas with these testing things. You feel sick, stay at home or limit public contact where you can. I don't see what a COVID test is going to do to make you do things differently anyway than you normally would if you get sick.
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I mean, if you want to judge then go ahead? If the tests aren't accurate then why are so many people relying on them? How can you say they aren't accurate if it's showing many people getting it?
I just shared that I was testing and haven't popped for it yet, I didn't expect that of all things to raise eyebrows. Jeeze. I also live with my parents until I move out next week, as I've been here for a few months, so there's that on top of everything else...
At the end of the day I just want to know if I have it. And I've been to proper testing places as well. I'm not just relying on these home tests. Would never have thought being proactive was questionable.
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I mean, if you want to judge then go ahead? If the tests aren't accurate then why are so many people testing positive? How can you say they aren't accurate?
I just shared that I was testing and haven't popped for it yet, I didn't expect that of all things to raise eyebrows. Jeeze. I also live with my parents until I move out next week, as I've been here for a few months, so there's that on top of everything else...
At the end of the day I just want to know if I have it. And I've been to proper testing places as well. I'm not just relying on these home tests
Are you feeling sick?
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Mike, I'm not trying to bust your balls. I'm really not. You can test where and whenever you want. But I find it interesting why people do things the way they do in regards to Covid. You struck me as someone that didn't seem all that concerned, or at least was accepting life as it was, so when you said you were testing daily, I noticed.
To address this, until last year I worked with my family in a business of 4 employees. Currently I am not only back living with my family but I now work in a large space with hundreds of people, and as I already said my girlfriend, who I just spent a week with, has it badly. So I just want to know.
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I mean, if you want to judge then go ahead? If the tests aren't accurate then why are so many people testing positive? How can you say they aren't accurate?
I just shared that I was testing and haven't popped for it yet, I didn't expect that of all things to raise eyebrows. Jeeze. I also live with my parents until I move out next week, as I've been here for a few months, so there's that on top of everything else...
At the end of the day I just want to know if I have it. And I've been to proper testing places as well. I'm not just relying on these home tests
Are you feeling sick?
No, but I can have it and be asymptomatic. Anything else to ask...? If I have it, I can't bring it to my job.
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I personally just don't understand the sense in testing daily if you're not even feeling sick regardless of close contacts but rules are pretty relaxed over here, no one gives a shit about it anymore in the slightest. If you're asymptomatic, then you wouldn't know you're bringing it to your job. Probably lots of people in the same boat. They wouldn't test cause they're not sick.
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I personally just don't understand the sense in testing daily if you're not even feeling sick regardless of close contacts but rules are pretty relaxed over here, no one gives a shit about it anymore in the slightest. If you're asymptomatic, then good for you I guess.
I mean I've given you every reason under the sun to understand why I'm doing it, this isn't rocket science Kade, not sure what else I can tell you. Lethean gets it.
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I personally just don't understand the sense in testing daily if you're not even feeling sick regardless of close contacts but rules are pretty relaxed over here, no one gives a shit about it anymore in the slightest. If you're asymptomatic, then good for you I guess.
I mean I've given you every reason under the sun to understand why I'm doing it, this isn't rocket science Kade, not sure what else I can tell you. Lethean got it.
All good Mike, you do you, apologies if I offended. I just have a strong and it seems controversial opinion on the matter, don't mind me.
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It's all good, Mike.
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Sorry if I sound perturbed but I was once dogged here for not wearing masks much anymore back in 21, but now I'm testing after a big fest and getting questioned about it? :lol
I thought so. And I certainly didn't dog you then, and I'm not dogging you now. I guess I was wondering what changed for you.
You just seem super concerned now about it.
I also work at a shipping facility with hundreds of employees...
Why would feel more susceptible at Progpower than you would at work with "hundreds of employees"?
Surely you don't test everyday after work, do you?
Again. Not super concerned. I don't fear covid. But I would like to know if I have it before going to work there each day. I'm not sure how you keep misinterpreting this as some fear or huge worry that I have. I'm just doing my part to stay aware. I don't feel more susceptible, I never said that. My point is that if I got it at the fest then I don't want to spread it anymore than I already might have.
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All good folks, just felt like I wasn't getting my points across no matter how clear I was trying to be. No hard feelings buddies
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I just want to know why you think you got it specifically from the fest, when you and anyone else could have caught it elsewhere in Atlanta. At the pizza place, at wholefoods, at the MARTA rail-line where lots of random people are in a congested space, in their hotel rooms, the airport. We who attended all took this risk, and even though they did all they could by requiring testing/proof of vaccination, people still caught it apparently. Would you then assume with those protocols that everyone should've been fine. Imagine if someone who had a vaccination card ended up being asymptomatic and ended up being positive later on. Those that tested seems to me like the people who are for sure, not spreading the virus.
I am more concerned about it raining, me getting soaked, and it being pretty cold in McCray's when I went to eat. I say this because last time I had gotten myself soaked at work, and it was cold when I left, then a few days later had a cold with congestion, runny nose, and all that fun stuff.
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Mike, I'm not trying to bust your balls. I'm really not.
And yet you are. :biggrin:
Then in that case, probably best to avoid them for the next couple of weeks anyway. Not sure what testing has to do with it. These tests aren't 100% accurate. Not even close.
You're right... there is a strong likelihood of false negatives, but positive results are rarely 'false-positives'. Positive RAT is pretty much always accurate (I've not heard personally, or in any news or medical releases, of issues around false positives) And knowing if/when one is positive is never a bad thing - and it's never a bad thing to be proactive about it. If not for the person that tested and told the crew (based on very mild symptoms) from the event I was at, I would've never masked and isolated in my own house for the 36 hours before my own symptoms came on, which ultimately saved the rest of the jingle.family from catching it. So yeah, testing after being at an extremely high risk event ... :tup
Being in indoor spaces elbow-to-elbow, unmasked for 60-90 minutes at a time, multiple times over a four day period is a HIGH risk event. None of the other things you listed Ben are anywhere near as high risk as being inside Centre Stage for up to 20 sets of concerts. It's completely logical to think and be concerned about catching it in that environment. But I guess ignorance is bliss for some.
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Ben, I never said I got it just from PPUSA. You also make a lot of assumptions about me in that post but they are invalidated by a post I already made the other night:
I don't see what the problem is with testing frequently. I had to travel to O'Hare and spent over 5 days in Atlanta around thousands of people.
You would not have had to lecture me if you just read that... sheesh.
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I am more concerned about it raining, me getting soaked, and it being pretty cold in McCray's when I went to eat. I say this because last time I had gotten myself soaked at work, and it was cold when I left, then a few days later had a cold with congestion, runny nose, and all that fun stuff.
Getting cold and rained on doesn't cause the flu or a cold.
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Ben, I never said I got it just from PPUSA. You also make a lot of assumptions about me in that post but they are invalidated by a post I already made the other night:
I don't see what the problem is with testing frequently. I had to travel to O'Hare and spent over 5 days in Atlanta around thousands of people.
You would not have had to lecture me if you just read that... sheesh.
I wouldn't be so sure on that.
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Kind of confused why you guys went so hard on him for testing after he said his gf (who I didn't even know was at the festival!) was positive. It should be a no brainer at this point if you have a known close contact positive that you should test yourself to make sure the spread stops there. I dont think his past of questioning mask use has any correlation to testing after known exposure. I'm one of those "I'm over covid" types of people at this point, but all that still makes sense to do.
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I am more concerned about it raining, me getting soaked, and it being pretty cold in McCray's when I went to eat. I say this because last time I had gotten myself soaked at work, and it was cold when I left, then a few days later had a cold with congestion, runny nose, and all that fun stuff.
Getting cold and rained on doesn't cause the flu or a cold.
Right... as Stads often reminds us, correlation is not causation.
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Marc, this was my response after Mike mentioned his girl.
OK. If your girl has it and you're a close contact, I get that. The way you posted was that you were just testing just because..
My only point was this constant testing seems excessive. Not MIKE's constant testing, but more in general. If anyone who goes to a high risk event, or has a close family member with it, then just assume that you may have it. I mean, other than getting time off from work, what's going to change?
Not directing this at Mike, but I think people are getting obsessed with constant testing.
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A lot of companies have specific time off policies for covid, mine for example does as it does not go against your allotted sick time. So it is important to know if you have it and need time off from work. I'm sure every company is different regarding this though.
I'm not even sure who is obsessed with constant testing these days. It may just be the bubble I live in, but most people don't seem to regularly test themselves unless they feel sick or had a known exposure. I was at the same festival, I saw Mike there. I have felt fine and I have not tested myself. If Mike or someone else I had chatted with had told me they had covid, I may need to test myself just to make sure I don't expose others. That hasn't been the case for me.
It's no surprise people got covid at the festival though. It's 4 long days indoors. It's basically expected to happen. I was never too worried, vax, boosted, and covid recovered from omni. It's possible I could get it again, just not very likely at this time. It seems I made it out fine as we are 4 days past the ending of the festival.
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Cool.
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Kind of confused why you guys went so hard on him for testing after he said his gf (who I didn't even know was at the festival!) was positive. It should be a no brainer at this point if you have a known close contact positive that you should test yourself to make sure the spread stops there. I dont think his past of questioning mask use has any correlation to testing after known exposure. I'm one of those "I'm over covid" types of people at this point, but all that still makes sense to do.
All of this, seriously
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and similarly, Wilderun just had some members get sick with covid and advised anyone who met them at progpower to get tested. It's just the common practice in these times. (I saw their set, but did not meet them or get close to them)
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I was hanging with them for a while.
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Dammit! :lol
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Kind of confused why you guys went so hard on him for testing after he said his gf (who I didn't even know was at the festival!) was positive. It should be a no brainer at this point if you have a known close contact positive that you should test yourself to make sure the spread stops there. I dont think his past of questioning mask use has any correlation to testing after known exposure. I'm one of those "I'm over covid" types of people at this point, but all that still makes sense to do.
Not to get into it again, I just find it bizarre even with close contacts, if you're not sick, why continually test yourself. As Tim said, it's gets obsessive.
Again, over here everything is relaxed as fuck so I'm obviously just seeing it from a different perspective. Here you can be around close contacts galore and go to work and about your business as per normal, you don't need to worry until you start feeling sick, which is sensible IMO.
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I'd say any time you are near someone who gets covid, you mind races. Some, feel ok as long as there are no symptoms. Others are more cautious because they are worried they were near those who got it.
Individual decision.
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Didn't realize testing a few times equaled obsessive but okay. Jeeze.
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Didn't realize testing a few times equaled obsessive but okay. Jeeze.
I don't know, I don't want to get into it again but I feel sometimes people continually test like they are almost looking for a positive result. I'm not aiming that at you but some of the workers I have have come across that way where I am.
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This isn't directed at anyone specifically, just something that has evolved over the last 2.5 years in society. What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)? That's one of the big things that this fucking pandemic has done to society I believe - so much questioning/challenging other peoples choices, actions, behaviours. TBH, it's my (and a lot of other people) belief that not worrying until you start to feel sick is very much NOT sensible (generally speaking). Case in point - my situation. If I did nothing until I was symptomatic, then I am 100% certain that the jingle.family would have caught it. And we all know this virus hits everyone differently, from asymptomatic, to sniffles, to a case of a bad flu, to hospitalization, to death. Jingle.son had asthma as a child, so for me (and many others), it would be far from sensible to just wait to see symptoms before taking action.
But in the end, you do you (I type that with no sarcasm at all). Genuinely, everyone can do what works for them, and I ain't gonna be bothered if it has no impact on me or my wellbeing in any way. I did me (for my situation, I didn't see a need to test until I was symptomatic). Mike can do Mike - if wants to test daily, who fucking cares and it shouldn't it matter or bother or make anyone wonder anything/
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Bingo, Chad.
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This isn't directed at anyone specifically, just something that has evolved over the last 2.5 years in society. What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)? That's one of the big things that this fucking pandemic has done to society I believe - so much questioning/challenging other peoples choices, actions, behaviours. TBH, it's my (and a lot of other people) belief that not worrying until you start to feel sick is very much NOT sensible (generally speaking). Case in point - my situation. If I did nothing until I was symptomatic, then I am 100% certain that the jingle.family would have caught it. And we all know this virus hits everyone differently, from asymptomatic, to sniffles, to a case of a bad flu, to hospitalization, to death. Jingle.son had asthma as a child, so for me (and many others), it would be far from sensible to just wait to see symptoms before taking action.
But in the end, you do you (I type that with no sarcasm at all). Genuinely, everyone can do what works for them, and I ain't gonna be bothered if it has no impact on me or my wellbeing in any way. I did me (for my situation, I didn't see a need to test until I was symptomatic). Mike can do Mike - if wants to test daily, who fucking cares and it shouldn't it matter or bother or make anyone wonder anything/
It's more than the last 2.5 years. We're moving toward two decades now of this line of thinking. This is a key part to most of what I write over in P/R. Does it REALLY bother you if, say, I THINK life starts at conception or birth? I'm talking about the concept, the idea. Does it REALLY bother you if, say, I'm uncomfortable around certain people? Does it REALLY bother you if, say, I own no guns, one gun, or 50 guns? Of course not, but we're at the point now where our FEELINGS are all that matter. If I'm UNCOMFORTABLE - something I control, not you - that is deemed enough now to demand you to act differently.
We are so insecure as a society that it's not enough to tolerate, to live-and-let-live. If you don't live your life like me, it's seemingly an affront to me. It's got to stop at some point; the question is whether we will realize it ourselves or whether it will be foisted on us by someone else.
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What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)?
Not much. But I'm not seeing that it "matters" to anyone in this thread. And not sure why people are reporting posts. After reading through the whole thing, seems like a big "nothing to see here." My take from reading the posts: Melphina posted that he tested 4 times, while being asymptomatic. TAC, Woflk, and maybe another one or two questioned why someone would test that many times and asked why, since it is a bit odd to test that many times, especially if not having symptoms. Melphina for some reason took the questioning personally and got defensive, causing TAC and Wolfk to feel they had to explain themselves and re-post the same thing, of basically "I just find it strange that someone would test that many times for no reason." And round and round following the same pattern. Am I missing something?
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I bowed out yesterday.
And I love Mike!
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What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)?
Not much. But I'm not seeing that it "matters" to anyone in this thread. And not sure why people are reporting posts. After reading through the whole thing, seems like a big "nothing to see here." My take from reading the posts: Melphina posted that he tested 4 times, while being asymptomatic. TAC, Woflk, and maybe another one or two questioned why someone would test that many times and asked why, since it is a bit odd to test that many times, especially if not having symptoms. Melphina for some reason took the questioning personally and got defensive, causing TAC and Wolfk to feel they had to explain themselves and re-post the same thing, of basically "I just find it strange that someone would test that many times for no reason." And round and round following the same pattern. Am I missing something?
Uh.. well, I got defensive when people told me to "stop worrying" and I kept listing a plethora of valid reasons why I was testing and Kade continued to grill me about it and was told that it was obsessive to take less than a handful of tests. But yes, "for some reason" I got defensive. I do not understand why on earth someone would find it strange that I test once a day after a crowded festival in a big city. Come on. Don't gaslight me please, that's really what this feels like when I explain myself to exasperation and I'm still met with people who are confused by my reasoning. I think I've been completely normal and fair and reasonable. Sorry for the trouble. I'll shut up about it now :/
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Since you're new here, I'll offer some unsolicited advice: Try not to take every time somebody asks you a question as a personal attack. It usually isn't. No need to be so defensive.
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What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)?
Not much. But I'm not seeing that it "matters" to anyone in this thread. And not sure why people are reporting posts. After reading through the whole thing, seems like a big "nothing to see here." My take from reading the posts: Melphina posted that he tested 4 times, while being asymptomatic. TAC, Woflk, and maybe another one or two questioned why someone would test that many times and asked why, since it is a bit odd to test that many times, especially if not having symptoms. Melphina for some reason took the questioning personally and got defensive, causing TAC and Wolfk to feel they had to explain themselves and re-post the same thing, of basically "I just find it strange that someone would test that many times for no reason." And round and round following the same pattern. Am I missing something?
If you're asking regarding the posts being reportable, I don't know. But if you're asking in general, yes, I think so - I don't think that's quite an accurate description of how it went down. I re-read it just now to make sure I'm not misremembering - They asked, he answered - not really defensively at all considering the THREE TESTS?? question might itself make someone defensive. He made a joke about being Neo, and was told to quit worrying, which is kind of rude. Then he explained a few more times, and the horse that was already dead and buried and decomposed was dug up and the bones were beaten some more.
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Since you're new here, I'll offer some unsolicited advice: Try not to take every time somebody asks you a question as a personal attack. It usually isn't. No need to be so defensive.
I'm not new here.
I think I can read context very well. Don't tell someone to not be offended or upset if they clearly are. That is gaslighting. I don't take every question as a personal attack and I never even said they were attacks. But, you writing that does upset me because you are dismissing my concerns. Please don't.
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What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)?
Not much. But I'm not seeing that it "matters" to anyone in this thread. And not sure why people are reporting posts. After reading through the whole thing, seems like a big "nothing to see here." My take from reading the posts: Melphina posted that he tested 4 times, while being asymptomatic. TAC, Woflk, and maybe another one or two questioned why someone would test that many times and asked why, since it is a bit odd to test that many times, especially if not having symptoms. Melphina for some reason took the questioning personally and got defensive, causing TAC and Wolfk to feel they had to explain themselves and re-post the same thing, of basically "I just find it strange that someone would test that many times for no reason." And round and round following the same pattern. Am I missing something?
If you're asking regarding the posts being reportable, I don't know. But if you're asking in general, yes, I think so - I don't think that's quite an accurate description of how it went down. I re-read it just now to make sure I'm not misremembering - They asked, he answered - not really defensively at all considering the THREE TESTS?? question might itself make someone defensive. He made a joke about being Neo, and was told to quit worrying, which is kind of rude. Then he explained a few more times, and the horse that was already dead and buried and decomposed was dug up and the bones were beaten some more.
Thank you.
Sorry, again, for the problems and derailing. Nothing more to say.
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:lol Well, not sure what you mean by "gaslighting." But telling the folks who run this place what we can or cannot tell you to do is likely to end in your stay here remaining short.
And, yeah, relatively speaking, 10 months is "new."
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:lol Well, not sure what you mean by "gaslighting." But telling the folks who run this place what we can or cannot tell you to do is likely to end in your stay here remaining short.
And, yeah, relatively speaking, 10 months is "new."
I've been here for years. I'm telling you not to gaslight me which is disrespectful and you then laugh at me. Admin or not, Jerry, it is rude and uncalled for. I didn't do anything to you. That's not fair. I've asked politely several times.
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Not sure whether you are using my first name because (1) you found my name online and are attempting a subtle threat by showing how adept you think you are at Internet sleuthing, or (2) you are a previously banned user who snuck back in her with a new account name. Either way, you are breaking the forum rules, and people who have tried either of the above in the past have not been successful. Whoever you are, good luck and goodbye.
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I guess you missed the posts a few months back in the picture thread where Melphina disclosed he is Kattelox/Walrus/Mike? My take is that he used your name to demonstrate that you very much *do* know each other.
Not sure which rules he broke - other than the assumption that you Bosk made that he was a banned user.
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He probably went too far just now, but I'm on melphina's side. This issue was resolved (all sides apologized and said they were good) before the bosk stepped in and made it worse. Maybe the biggest mod blunder I've seen in all my years here.
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He probably went too far just now, but I'm on melphina's side. This issue was resolved (all sides apologized and said they were good) before the bosk stepped in and made it worse. Maybe the biggest mod blunder I've seen in all my years here.
Not that there are "sides" to be had (imo), but I see Mike's point in how and why he responded to some of the posts the way he did. I'd also disagree with Bosk's assessment of the exchanges, but agree that a little gas was drizzled a fire that was pretty much out.
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The fire was already out though :lol like why re-ignite that. Everyone said their peace and moved on.
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And where did he tell him what he could or could not do? He asked Bosk, politely, not to dismiss him, and got a snarky response in return. :dunno:
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And where did he tell him what he could or could not do? He asked Bosk, politely, not to dismiss him, and got a snarky response in return. :dunno:
Well, factually speaking, Mike did literally type "don't tell me" ... so that's the only thing I can think that Bosk was referring to. But to then transition into Mod-Mode and threaten a ban over that specific comment is kinda over the top imo. We all put our britches on one leg at a time, so a comment like that wasn't being critical of how the discussion was being moderated, and not a personal attack ... so again, I'm unclear what rule was broken to warrant a ban.
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Whatever happens, I'm a bit more disturbed that people were actually reporting this thread.
But I'm trying to mind my own business because doing that is free.
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I've said this before, but I really think Mods that are actively involved in threads/discussions should recuse themselves from banning users on the fly that they are directly interacting with. Playing judge, jury, and executioner while one is also the plaintiff is unbalanced.
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wait so did Bosk really not know that this is Mike? It wasn’t a secret or anything, I barely post here and I knew.
edit: more to the point, as far as I recall he wasn’t banned he just deleted his former account I think.
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Well that escalated predictably.
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Well, Bosk is the king of misdirection. Does that mean we can call DTF Jerry world? :lol :rollin
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That was the Walrus with a new name?
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That was the Walrus with a new name?
yup
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Goo goo g'joob.
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That was the Walrus with a new name?
yup
Thanks. I didn't know.
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(https://i.imgur.com/EXyTUro.jpg)
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So what will Kattlelox/Walrus/Melphina's next username be?
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So what will Kattlelox/Walrus/Melphina's next username be?
jingle.cuz
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So what will Kattlelox/Walrus/Melphina's next username be?
NotMiketake4
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Bosk2
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Bandeeznutz
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That was the Walrus with a new name?
yup
I had no idea that was him. I last remember him posting a picture, don't remember which account that was from.
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When he called him Jerry….
(https://haphazardstuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Real-Genius-1985-comedy-William-Atherton-Professor-Hathaway.jpg)
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Can you nail a 6" spike with your.........
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Can you nail a 6" spike with your.........
That was yesterday, what have you done for me today?
I need to watch that movie again.
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I've said this before, but I really think Mods that are actively involved in threads/discussions should recuse themselves from banning users on the fly that they are directly interacting with. Playing judge, jury, and executioner while one is also the plaintiff is unbalanced.
Seconding. I've been here on and off ten years and the only times I have ever felt there were blunders was in situations like these. It's almost predictable at this point that kerfuffles between regular users burn out much quicker and with less consequence than something between a mod and a user, when it should be the other way around.
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I don't look at the Post Your Pictures Thread. I had no idea Melphina is Mike until he posted his pictures in the ProgPower thread. Even though I saw him at ProgPower I didn't talk to him, not out of any hatred or anything, but I myself don't really start conversations. I only talked to like 4 people who attended ProgPower, including Marc.
Ben, I never said I got it just from PPUSA. You also make a lot of assumptions about me in that post but they are invalidated by a post I already made the other night:
I don't see what the problem is with testing frequently. I had to travel to O'Hare and spent over 5 days in Atlanta around thousands of people.
You would not have had to lecture me if you just read that... sheesh.
Sorry if I came across as lecturing you. That's my bad. I also didn't see that post either.
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It especially bums me out not just because of how much I enjoy him on the forum, but also because he has contributed something interesting to this particular thread that apparently brought disagreement but was going to work itself out within a few replies. I have gone on this thread several times to straight up argue with people, not that politely, and not just defend myself, I guess I could have been warned or banned for a spot of heated discussion if a mod were online at the same time and participating in the discussion with a mod hat on.
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It especially bums me out not just because of how much I enjoy him on the forum,
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I'm hopeful he and Bosk can work things out in private. I doubt either one wants this to be going this far.
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It especially bums me out not just because of how much I enjoy him on the forum,
I am acknowledging my subjectivity, cut me some slack :lol
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It especially bums me out not just because of how much I enjoy him on the forum,
I am acknowledging my subjectivity, cut me some slack :lol
Oh... I was just agreeing with you that I enjoy him on the forum too.
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Can you nail a 6" spike with your.........
That was yesterday, what have you done for me today?
I thought it was "not at the moment."
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Can you nail a 6" spike with your.........
That was yesterday, what have you done for me today?
I thought it was "not at the moment."
Oh it was. But the pic just reminded me of another of my favorite lines from it.
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Oh... I was just agreeing with you that I enjoy him on the forum too.
Ow, misunderstood :heart Right, that type of cut out quoting with no comment is sometimes used to highlight something funny someone said, but of course you wouldn't be caught dead using an internet social norm invented after the year 2006 :biggrin:
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Oh... I was just agreeing with you that I enjoy him on the forum too.
Ow, misunderstood :heart Right, that type of cut out quoting with no comment is sometimes used to highlight something funny someone said, but of course you wouldn't be caught dead using an internet social norm invented after the year 2006 :biggrin:
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;D
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(https://i.imgur.com/EXyTUro.jpg)
Something that closely resembles a DTF train wreck of sorts. ???
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Oh... I was just agreeing with you that I enjoy him on the forum too.
Ow, misunderstood :heart Right, that type of cut out quoting with no comment is sometimes used to highlight something funny someone said, but of course you wouldn't be caught dead using an internet social norm invented after the year 2006 :biggrin:
MoraWinterSoul is currently my favorite poster on this forum. :) :) :) :)
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Oh... I was just agreeing with you that I enjoy him on the forum too.
Ow, misunderstood :heart Right, that type of cut out quoting with no comment is sometimes used to highlight something funny someone said, but of course you wouldn't be caught dead using an internet social norm invented after the year 2006 :biggrin:
:lol
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Oh... I was just agreeing with you that I enjoy him on the forum too.
Ow, misunderstood :heart Right, that type of cut out quoting with no comment is sometimes used to highlight something funny someone said, but of course you wouldn't be caught dead using an internet social norm invented after the year 2006 :biggrin:
MoraWinterSoul is currently my favorite poster on this forum. :) :) :) :)
:mora:
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What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)?
Not much. But I'm not seeing that it "matters" to anyone in this thread. And not sure why people are reporting posts. After reading through the whole thing, seems like a big "nothing to see here." My take from reading the posts: Melphina posted that he tested 4 times, while being asymptomatic. TAC, Woflk, and maybe another one or two questioned why someone would test that many times and asked why, since it is a bit odd to test that many times, especially if not having symptoms. Melphina for some reason took the questioning personally and got defensive, causing TAC and Wolfk to feel they had to explain themselves and re-post the same thing, of basically "I just find it strange that someone would test that many times for no reason." And round and round following the same pattern. Am I missing something?
What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)?
Not much. But I'm not seeing that it "matters" to anyone in this thread. And not sure why people are reporting posts. After reading through the whole thing, seems like a big "nothing to see here." My take from reading the posts: Melphina posted that he tested 4 times, while being asymptomatic. TAC, Woflk, and maybe another one or two questioned why someone would test that many times and asked why, since it is a bit odd to test that many times, especially if not having symptoms. Melphina for some reason took the questioning personally and got defensive, causing TAC and Wolfk to feel they had to explain themselves and re-post the same thing, of basically "I just find it strange that someone would test that many times for no reason." And round and round following the same pattern. Am I missing something?
Uh.. well, I got defensive when people told me to "stop worrying" and I kept listing a plethora of valid reasons why I was testing and Kade continued to grill me about it and was told that it was obsessive to take less than a handful of tests. But yes, "for some reason" I got defensive. I do not understand why on earth someone would find it strange that I test once a day after a crowded festival in a big city. Come on. Don't gaslight me please, that's really what this feels like when I explain myself to exasperation and I'm still met with people who are confused by my reasoning. I think I've been completely normal and fair and reasonable. Sorry for the trouble. I'll shut up about it now :/
Wow, I was reported? :lol :lol :lol
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This isn't directed at anyone specifically, just something that has evolved over the last 2.5 years in society. What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)? That's one of the big things that this fucking pandemic has done to society I believe - so much questioning/challenging other peoples choices, actions, behaviours. TBH, it's my (and a lot of other people) belief that not worrying until you start to feel sick is very much NOT sensible (generally speaking). Case in point - my situation. If I did nothing until I was symptomatic, then I am 100% certain that the jingle.family would have caught it. And we all know this virus hits everyone differently, from asymptomatic, to sniffles, to a case of a bad flu, to hospitalization, to death. Jingle.son had asthma as a child, so for me (and many others), it would be far from sensible to just wait to see symptoms before taking action.
But in the end, you do you (I type that with no sarcasm at all). Genuinely, everyone can do what works for them, and I ain't gonna be bothered if it has no impact on me or my wellbeing in any way. I did me (for my situation, I didn't see a need to test until I was symptomatic). Mike can do Mike - if wants to test daily, who fucking cares and it shouldn't it matter or bother or make anyone wonder anything/
Chad, I love you man, I really do, but this is aimed at me and Tim.
I'll just put out there that I really actually don't give a shit what others do. After my year, lol, trust me, there's very little in life I give a fuck about right now. At the end of the day, when everything is said and done, nothing matters. I've seen that. My view on reality has altered so people taking tests has less than zero impact on me.
I come from a very different perspective with the whole COVID thing and I was mainly just super curious on the whole over obsession with testing, especially when one isn't sick at all. Look, I'm not vaccinated at all. I'm not anti whatsoever, more power to people and each to their own but I just choose not to, I've never been a big jabber. I've been heavily judged for my take but that's water off a ducks back, couldn't give two fucks. I even fought my work and won when they tried to mandate it. So, yes, my perception on everything is different to most, and luckily I've had flus worse than COVID so that ramps up my curiosity even more. I'm not trying to trivialize it because I know for some it's serious.
Look, I just feel people obsess their lives these days worrying about it. You know, you could walk outside and be dead before you know it. Life is short and could be gone in a second, trust me I know! So, it's fascinating to me when people obsess and monopolize their time over it but again, each to their own.
But from someone who has cheated death, stop worrying about COVID and if you MIGHT catch it or be exposed to it. Once you catch it, you get over it and move on. My thinking is, fate plays a part, those that have died with COVID, their time was up, simple as that. The rest of us that get over it in a couple of days, it's not a big issue, life goes on. This isn't directed at you Chad just some thinking from my perspective at the moment, but seriously, when we say 'stop worrying,' it means just that, cause life can end before your eyes without you even knowing.
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This isn't directed at anyone specifically, just something that has evolved over the last 2.5 years in society. What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)? That's one of the big things that this fucking pandemic has done to society I believe - so much questioning/challenging other peoples choices, actions, behaviours. TBH, it's my (and a lot of other people) belief that not worrying until you start to feel sick is very much NOT sensible (generally speaking). Case in point - my situation. If I did nothing until I was symptomatic, then I am 100% certain that the jingle.family would have caught it. And we all know this virus hits everyone differently, from asymptomatic, to sniffles, to a case of a bad flu, to hospitalization, to death. Jingle.son had asthma as a child, so for me (and many others), it would be far from sensible to just wait to see symptoms before taking action.
But in the end, you do you (I type that with no sarcasm at all). Genuinely, everyone can do what works for them, and I ain't gonna be bothered if it has no impact on me or my wellbeing in any way. I did me (for my situation, I didn't see a need to test until I was symptomatic). Mike can do Mike - if wants to test daily, who fucking cares and it shouldn't it matter or bother or make anyone wonder anything/
Chad, I love you man, I really do, but this is aimed at me and Tim.
I'm serious as a heart attack when I say it is/was not. My post may have been partially triggered by your/Tim's posts, but I cannot express with enough sincerity that these comments of were not at, or directed to, or about you/Tim specifically. I've seen, read and personally experienced (outside of DTF - yes! I actually do have life outside of DTF) too much of this kind of behaviour over the last 2 years.
I'm not anti whatsoever, more power to people and each to their own but I just choose not to, I've never been a big jabber. I've been heavily judged for my take but that's water off a ducks back, couldn't give two fucks. I even fought my work and won when they tried to mandate it.
Dude... and you know I love you just as much back, but this statement is literally an example of someone opposed to being vaccinated. You aren't the stereotypical "anti-vax" person, but you literally went to some length to not vaccinate yourself. This is the literal definition of being against/anti-vax(ccination). Just own it man. :lol
But from someone who has cheated death, stop worrying about COVID and if you MIGHT catch it or be exposed to it. Once you catch it, you get over it and move on.
Literally millions - maybe 10s of millions - of people can't/haven't/aren't able to just "move on". Over 6M dead worldwide, and still a couple thousand people per day are dying from this. Look, mrs.jingle also very much believes that everything happens for a reason. Doesn't mean people can't take reasonable steps to prevent bad outcomes, and everyone's definition of reasonable steps is different. For someone who died in a head on collision that chose not to or forgot to wear a seatbelt, I'm not sure I would think that it was their time to go. That's me though (no snark or sarcasm). I don't suspect you would tell someone who got into your car not to worry about wearing a seatbelt... "hey, we MIGHT get into a car accident, but once we do we'll get over any injuries". :lol Ok, there's a little sarcasm there. ;)
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Mate, my work wanted to mandate the vaccine for all staff or else we lost our jobs. Now, I wasn't going to quit my job over it, I'm not that stupid, I would have gotten it, but I don't go down without a fight.
They wanted staff to be vaccinated yet we didn't need to check the status of our customers. So vaccinated or non vaccinated people could enter the facility. So I potentially was being forced to vaccinate while I could have 200 people using the pool that I'm watching that aren't vaccinated?!? Fuck that.
There were holes in the conditions they were going by in relation to us getting vaccinated and I pulled it apart and they were wrong. I stand up for my staff with what I feel is right. If it came down to it, as I said I was getting it, but the basis around it didn't make sense and I've always challenged things like that.
Anti vax, whatever, it's just a title, at the end of the day, I couldn't care less if I am or not. I'm fine being judged about it, it doesn't matter.
As for the other stuff, we just have to agree to disagree I think. Over 6M dead, oh well, their time was up. The dude who didn't put on a seatbelt and died from a crash, oh well, he's fault for forgetting, his time was up. Again, I should be dead, so my viewpoint is fucked as I struggle through things, but man, I do love you, but I do think you need to relax on the whole thing just a little.
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Well...I've been feeling unwell, I noticed this when I was at work the other day, I had started to feel a headache. I also haven't had time to rest from ProgPower and went straight to work closing, and opening the next day. I was off yesterday, and felt more fatigue, slept most of the day, and now have a dry cough. I took a home test and it came back positive. Yay me...
What I find fascinating is that even with all these "reasonable steps" they took at the festival, people still got it.
Am I worried about it...NO.
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Wow, suddenly there's a lot of love in this thread! :lol
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Anti Vax = Anti Cart Returns. :lol
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This isn't directed at anyone specifically, just something that has evolved over the last 2.5 years in society. What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)? That's one of the big things that this fucking pandemic has done to society I believe - so much questioning/challenging other peoples choices, actions, behaviours. TBH, it's my (and a lot of other people) belief that not worrying until you start to feel sick is very much NOT sensible (generally speaking). Case in point - my situation. If I did nothing until I was symptomatic, then I am 100% certain that the jingle.family would have caught it. And we all know this virus hits everyone differently, from asymptomatic, to sniffles, to a case of a bad flu, to hospitalization, to death. Jingle.son had asthma as a child, so for me (and many others), it would be far from sensible to just wait to see symptoms before taking action.
But in the end, you do you (I type that with no sarcasm at all). Genuinely, everyone can do what works for them, and I ain't gonna be bothered if it has no impact on me or my wellbeing in any way. I did me (for my situation, I didn't see a need to test until I was symptomatic). Mike can do Mike - if wants to test daily, who fucking cares and it shouldn't it matter or bother or make anyone wonder anything/
Chad, I love you man, I really do, but this is aimed at me and Tim.
I'll just put out there that I really actually don't give a shit what others do. After my year, lol, trust me, there's very little in life I give a fuck about right now. At the end of the day, when everything is said and done, nothing matters. I've seen that. My view on reality has altered so people taking tests has less than zero impact on me.
I come from a very different perspective with the whole COVID thing and I was mainly just super curious on the whole over obsession with testing, especially when one isn't sick at all. Look, I'm not vaccinated at all. I'm not anti whatsoever, more power to people and each to their own but I just choose not to, I've never been a big jabber. I've been heavily judged for my take but that's water off a ducks back, couldn't give two fucks. I even fought my work and won when they tried to mandate it. So, yes, my perception on everything is different to most, and luckily I've had flus worse than COVID so that ramps up my curiosity even more. I'm not trying to trivialize it because I know for some it's serious.
Look, I just feel people obsess their lives these days worrying about it. You know, you could walk outside and be dead before you know it. Life is short and could be gone in a second, trust me I know! So, it's fascinating to me when people obsess and monopolize their time over it but again, each to their own.
But from someone who has cheated death, stop worrying about COVID and if you MIGHT catch it or be exposed to it. Once you catch it, you get over it and move on. My thinking is, fate plays a part, those that have died with COVID, their time was up, simple as that. The rest of us that get over it in a couple of days, it's not a big issue, life goes on. This isn't directed at you Chad just some thinking from my perspective at the moment, but seriously, when we say 'stop worrying,' it means just that, cause life can end before your eyes without you even knowing.
Those that died from it, more than likely had bad health already. If you have breathing issues, this could be a problem.
I also have my views on why this virus came about. I contribute it to how our human lifestyles are and the resulting outcomes it has on our health. We are doing things to the planet itself and for me, I see this as the consequence for our actions. If we continue down this path, these "Plagues" will only get worse. I would think of it as a wake-up call for humanity to reassess our lifestyle, society, and the very things we are doing to the ecosystem of this planet.
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Anti Vax = Anti Cart Returns. :lol
NO! I always return my carts dammit! ;D
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This isn't directed at anyone specifically, just something that has evolved over the last 2.5 years in society. What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)? That's one of the big things that this fucking pandemic has done to society I believe - so much questioning/challenging other peoples choices, actions, behaviours. TBH, it's my (and a lot of other people) belief that not worrying until you start to feel sick is very much NOT sensible (generally speaking). Case in point - my situation. If I did nothing until I was symptomatic, then I am 100% certain that the jingle.family would have caught it. And we all know this virus hits everyone differently, from asymptomatic, to sniffles, to a case of a bad flu, to hospitalization, to death. Jingle.son had asthma as a child, so for me (and many others), it would be far from sensible to just wait to see symptoms before taking action.
But in the end, you do you (I type that with no sarcasm at all). Genuinely, everyone can do what works for them, and I ain't gonna be bothered if it has no impact on me or my wellbeing in any way. I did me (for my situation, I didn't see a need to test until I was symptomatic). Mike can do Mike - if wants to test daily, who fucking cares and it shouldn't it matter or bother or make anyone wonder anything/
Chad, I love you man, I really do, but this is aimed at me and Tim.
I'll just put out there that I really actually don't give a shit what others do. After my year, lol, trust me, there's very little in life I give a fuck about right now. At the end of the day, when everything is said and done, nothing matters. I've seen that. My view on reality has altered so people taking tests has less than zero impact on me.
I come from a very different perspective with the whole COVID thing and I was mainly just super curious on the whole over obsession with testing, especially when one isn't sick at all. Look, I'm not vaccinated at all. I'm not anti whatsoever, more power to people and each to their own but I just choose not to, I've never been a big jabber. I've been heavily judged for my take but that's water off a ducks back, couldn't give two fucks. I even fought my work and won when they tried to mandate it. So, yes, my perception on everything is different to most, and luckily I've had flus worse than COVID so that ramps up my curiosity even more. I'm not trying to trivialize it because I know for some it's serious.
Look, I just feel people obsess their lives these days worrying about it. You know, you could walk outside and be dead before you know it. Life is short and could be gone in a second, trust me I know! So, it's fascinating to me when people obsess and monopolize their time over it but again, each to their own.
But from someone who has cheated death, stop worrying about COVID and if you MIGHT catch it or be exposed to it. Once you catch it, you get over it and move on. My thinking is, fate plays a part, those that have died with COVID, their time was up, simple as that. The rest of us that get over it in a couple of days, it's not a big issue, life goes on. This isn't directed at you Chad just some thinking from my perspective at the moment, but seriously, when we say 'stop worrying,' it means just that, cause life can end before your eyes without you even knowing.
Just gonna throw two things out there, that might or might not mean anything to you. One is that "obsessing" might not be the best way to describe an abundance of caution. The precautions we each choose to make cover a massive range, from complete disregard to fairly stringent measures. Describing any of them beyond a certain point as "obsessive" is an unnecessarily judgemental way to put it. I'm not calling you out. I seriously doubt you were trying to be judgemental. I'm must pointing out that others might reasonably take it that way. Just one of those things that people may not think about.
The other is that your stark "well, your time's up, mate" is missing a different point. I don't really disagree with the sentiment, but I think it's missing an important detail. I'm not afraid of being dead. Far from it. Covid is one of the most godawful ways to go out I can think of, though. We're talking very bottom of the list. Car crash and struck by lightning are blessings compared to them. I don't take precautions because I'm afraid of dying. I'm not. I take precautions because I'm afraid of dying after two weeks being unable to breathe. Again, just something to think about.
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struck by lightning are blessings compared to them.
Not if you survive.
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Anti Vax = Anti Cart Returns. :lol
So everywhere we go shopping, my wife always returns the cart. I whip out phone and take her picture everytime, and I tell her I'm gonna email the manager so they can use that for the Employee Of The Month Board in the lunchroom.
This is when she won a couple of months ago!
(https://i.imgur.com/GX7sSIa.jpg)
-
This isn't directed at anyone specifically, just something that has evolved over the last 2.5 years in society. What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)? That's one of the big things that this fucking pandemic has done to society I believe - so much questioning/challenging other peoples choices, actions, behaviours. TBH, it's my (and a lot of other people) belief that not worrying until you start to feel sick is very much NOT sensible (generally speaking). Case in point - my situation. If I did nothing until I was symptomatic, then I am 100% certain that the jingle.family would have caught it. And we all know this virus hits everyone differently, from asymptomatic, to sniffles, to a case of a bad flu, to hospitalization, to death. Jingle.son had asthma as a child, so for me (and many others), it would be far from sensible to just wait to see symptoms before taking action.
But in the end, you do you (I type that with no sarcasm at all). Genuinely, everyone can do what works for them, and I ain't gonna be bothered if it has no impact on me or my wellbeing in any way. I did me (for my situation, I didn't see a need to test until I was symptomatic). Mike can do Mike - if wants to test daily, who fucking cares and it shouldn't it matter or bother or make anyone wonder anything/
Chad, I love you man, I really do, but this is aimed at me and Tim.
I'll just put out there that I really actually don't give a shit what others do. After my year, lol, trust me, there's very little in life I give a fuck about right now. At the end of the day, when everything is said and done, nothing matters. I've seen that. My view on reality has altered so people taking tests has less than zero impact on me.
I come from a very different perspective with the whole COVID thing and I was mainly just super curious on the whole over obsession with testing, especially when one isn't sick at all. Look, I'm not vaccinated at all. I'm not anti whatsoever, more power to people and each to their own but I just choose not to, I've never been a big jabber. I've been heavily judged for my take but that's water off a ducks back, couldn't give two fucks. I even fought my work and won when they tried to mandate it. So, yes, my perception on everything is different to most, and luckily I've had flus worse than COVID so that ramps up my curiosity even more. I'm not trying to trivialize it because I know for some it's serious.
Look, I just feel people obsess their lives these days worrying about it. You know, you could walk outside and be dead before you know it. Life is short and could be gone in a second, trust me I know! So, it's fascinating to me when people obsess and monopolize their time over it but again, each to their own.
But from someone who has cheated death, stop worrying about COVID and if you MIGHT catch it or be exposed to it. Once you catch it, you get over it and move on. My thinking is, fate plays a part, those that have died with COVID, their time was up, simple as that. The rest of us that get over it in a couple of days, it's not a big issue, life goes on. This isn't directed at you Chad just some thinking from my perspective at the moment, but seriously, when we say 'stop worrying,' it means just that, cause life can end before your eyes without you even knowing.
Just gonna throw two things out there, that might or might not mean anything to you. One is that "obsessing" might not be the best way to describe an abundance of caution. The precautions we each choose to make cover a massive range, from complete disregard to fairly stringent measures. Describing any of them beyond a certain point as "obsessive" is an unnecessarily judgemental way to put it. I'm not calling you out. I seriously doubt you were trying to be judgemental. I'm must pointing out that others might reasonably take it that way. Just one of those things that people may not think about.
The other is that your stark "well, your time's up, mate" is missing a different point. I don't really disagree with the sentiment, but I think it's missing an important detail. I'm not afraid of being dead. Far from it. Covid is one of the most godawful ways to go out I can think of, though. We're talking very bottom of the list. Car crash and struck by lightning are blessings compared to them. I don't take precautions because I'm afraid of dying. I'm not. I take precautions because I'm afraid of dying after two weeks being unable to breathe. Again, just something to think about.
This entirely depends on your own health. It's why everyone should have went to see their doctors to assess where their health lies and how to go about it with their doctor, if they were so concerned about how Covid may possibly affect them. There are people that have went to their doctor and were told not to get a vaccine, my auntie was one of them.
If I go from Covid, then so be it. This world sucks anyways and it's going to hell anyways.
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If I go from Covid, then so be it. This world sucks anyways and it's going to hell anyways.
As cynical as I am at the moment, I'm on board with this. And yes, peoples underlying issues surely have a factor on how they handle COVID.
Maybe it's my struggles at the moment, but from what I've seen coming back from the dead just about, there's no need to be afraid of dying, there's a possibility whatever comes afterwards is better than where we are now anyway.
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Anti Vax = Anti Cart Returns. :lol
So everywhere we go shopping, my wife always returns the cart. I whip out phone and take her picture everytime, and I tell her I'm gonna email the manager so they can use that for the Employee Of The Month Board in the lunchroom.
This is when she won a couple of months ago!
(https://i.imgur.com/GX7sSIa.jpg)
Husband of the year right here.
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Hell fucking yes! :lol
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I took a home test and it came back positive. Yay me...
That sucks. I hope you feel better soon.
Also, another person I know from Progpower on facebook posted they are positive just today.
Mike's "obsessive" testing is showing to have been the prudent thing to do in such a situation of known covid spread and contact.
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If I go from Covid, then so be it. This world sucks anyways and it's going to hell anyways.
As cynical as I am at the moment, I'm on board with this. And yes, peoples underlying issues surely have a factor on how they handle COVID.
Maybe it's my struggles at the moment, but from what I've seen coming back from the dead just about, there's no need to be afraid of dying, there's a possibility whatever comes afterwards is better than where we are now anyway.
I agree man. And I contribute my POV of death to how much death I have seen from many different reasons. I know Death is a part of life and there is nothing we can do about it. It's nature that things will wilt and die. We can try all we can to prevent it, but nature laughs. For myself, all I can do is just live life the best that I can and hope for a better future for the upcoming generations.
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I took a home test and it came back positive. Yay me...
That sucks. I hope you feel better soon.
Also, another person I know from Progpower on facebook posted they are positive just today.
Mike's "obsessive" testing is showing to have been the prudent thing to do in such a situation of known covid spread and contact.
I only tested because I was having the symptoms.
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I took a home test and it came back positive. Yay me...
That sucks. I hope you feel better soon.
Also, another person I know from Progpower on facebook posted they are positive just today.
Mike's "obsessive" testing is showing to have been the prudent thing to do in such a situation of known covid spread and contact.
I only tested because I was having the symptoms.
That's fine. But people are getting sick 5 days later so it made sense for someone who has concerns to test for a period of time. I personally have not tested since coming back, I have not felt sick. If I feel like shit tomorrow, I would. I don't expect to.
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If I go from Covid, then so be it. This world sucks anyways and it's going to hell anyways.
As cynical as I am at the moment, I'm on board with this. And yes, peoples underlying issues surely have a factor on how they handle COVID.
Maybe it's my struggles at the moment, but from what I've seen coming back from the dead just about, there's no need to be afraid of dying, there's a possibility whatever comes afterwards is better than where we are now anyway.
I agree man. And I contribute my POV of death to how much death I have seen from many different reasons. I know Death is a part of life and there is nothing we can do about it. It's nature that things will wilt and die. We can try all we can to prevent it, but nature laughs. For myself, all I can do is just live life the best that I can and hope for a better future for the upcoming generations.
We prevent it each day by our actions when we go about our life, but yeah, we just have to live the best we can but when our time is essentially up, there's nothing we can do about it.
-
This isn't directed at anyone specifically, just something that has evolved over the last 2.5 years in society. What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)? That's one of the big things that this fucking pandemic has done to society I believe - so much questioning/challenging other peoples choices, actions, behaviours. TBH, it's my (and a lot of other people) belief that not worrying until you start to feel sick is very much NOT sensible (generally speaking). Case in point - my situation. If I did nothing until I was symptomatic, then I am 100% certain that the jingle.family would have caught it. And we all know this virus hits everyone differently, from asymptomatic, to sniffles, to a case of a bad flu, to hospitalization, to death. Jingle.son had asthma as a child, so for me (and many others), it would be far from sensible to just wait to see symptoms before taking action.
But in the end, you do you (I type that with no sarcasm at all). Genuinely, everyone can do what works for them, and I ain't gonna be bothered if it has no impact on me or my wellbeing in any way. I did me (for my situation, I didn't see a need to test until I was symptomatic). Mike can do Mike - if wants to test daily, who fucking cares and it shouldn't it matter or bother or make anyone wonder anything/
Chad, I love you man, I really do, but this is aimed at me and Tim.
I'll just put out there that I really actually don't give a shit what others do. After my year, lol, trust me, there's very little in life I give a fuck about right now. At the end of the day, when everything is said and done, nothing matters. I've seen that. My view on reality has altered so people taking tests has less than zero impact on me.
I come from a very different perspective with the whole COVID thing and I was mainly just super curious on the whole over obsession with testing, especially when one isn't sick at all. Look, I'm not vaccinated at all. I'm not anti whatsoever, more power to people and each to their own but I just choose not to, I've never been a big jabber. I've been heavily judged for my take but that's water off a ducks back, couldn't give two fucks. I even fought my work and won when they tried to mandate it. So, yes, my perception on everything is different to most, and luckily I've had flus worse than COVID so that ramps up my curiosity even more. I'm not trying to trivialize it because I know for some it's serious.
Look, I just feel people obsess their lives these days worrying about it. You know, you could walk outside and be dead before you know it. Life is short and could be gone in a second, trust me I know! So, it's fascinating to me when people obsess and monopolize their time over it but again, each to their own.
But from someone who has cheated death, stop worrying about COVID and if you MIGHT catch it or be exposed to it. Once you catch it, you get over it and move on. My thinking is, fate plays a part, those that have died with COVID, their time was up, simple as that. The rest of us that get over it in a couple of days, it's not a big issue, life goes on. This isn't directed at you Chad just some thinking from my perspective at the moment, but seriously, when we say 'stop worrying,' it means just that, cause life can end before your eyes without you even knowing.
Just gonna throw two things out there, that might or might not mean anything to you. One is that "obsessing" might not be the best way to describe an abundance of caution. The precautions we each choose to make cover a massive range, from complete disregard to fairly stringent measures. Describing any of them beyond a certain point as "obsessive" is an unnecessarily judgemental way to put it. I'm not calling you out. I seriously doubt you were trying to be judgemental. I'm must pointing out that others might reasonably take it that way. Just one of those things that people may not think about.
The other is that your stark "well, your time's up, mate" is missing a different point. I don't really disagree with the sentiment, but I think it's missing an important detail. I'm not afraid of being dead. Far from it. Covid is one of the most godawful ways to go out I can think of, though. We're talking very bottom of the list. Car crash and struck by lightning are blessings compared to them. I don't take precautions because I'm afraid of dying. I'm not. I take precautions because I'm afraid of dying after two weeks being unable to breathe. Again, just something to think about.
This entirely depends on your own health. It's why everyone should have went to see their doctors to assess where their health lies and how to go about it with their doctor, if they were so concerned about how Covid may possibly affect them. There are people that have went to their doctor and were told not to get a vaccine, my auntie was one of them.
You presume that a doctor can tell you how you'll react. Dr. Kidney was very clear that he didn't have the foggiest idea how I'd react to covid because there's absolutely zero pattern to draw a conclusion from. He's had patients that were already on death's door shake it off like it was nothing, and he's had patients that were in perfectly good health drop dead. And mind you that 100% of his patients are in the high risk group. They get infected, they recover, they die, all at about the same rate as everybody else, and there's just no way of predicting how it'll go.
If I go from Covid, then so be it. This world sucks anyways and it's going to hell anyways.
Did you even read what I wrote? I share your cynicism about life, so "so be it" is perfectly applicable when it comes to dying. Not about dying of a specific disease. Would you say "Oh, if I die of ALS, so be it?"
-
I took a home test and it came back positive. Yay me...
That sucks. I hope you feel better soon.
Also, another person I know from Progpower on facebook posted they are positive just today.
Mike's "obsessive" testing is showing to have been the prudent thing to do in such a situation of known covid spread and contact.
I fully take on board the nature of the word 'obsessive' and how I used and referred to it. I used it as a general term in relation to my views on the entire subject, not essentially as targeting a specific case, even if it came across like that.
-
If I go from Covid, then so be it. This world sucks anyways and it's going to hell anyways.
As cynical as I am at the moment, I'm on board with this. And yes, peoples underlying issues surely have a factor on how they handle COVID.
Maybe it's my struggles at the moment, but from what I've seen coming back from the dead just about, there's no need to be afraid of dying, there's a possibility whatever comes afterwards is better than where we are now anyway.
I agree man. And I contribute my POV of death to how much death I have seen from many different reasons. I know Death is a part of life and there is nothing we can do about it. It's nature that things will wilt and die. We can try all we can to prevent it, but nature laughs. For myself, all I can do is just live life the best that I can and hope for a better future for the upcoming generations.
We prevent it each day by our actions when we go about our life, but yeah, we just have to live the best we can but when our time is essentially up, there's nothing we can do about it.
And there is a plethora of ways we all could go. The thing is we don't know how we will go. And with this current lifestyle and habits we are living, there are more ways we can possibly die.
This isn't directed at anyone specifically, just something that has evolved over the last 2.5 years in society. What does it matter what other people do when it quite literally has ZERO impact on you (royal)? That's one of the big things that this fucking pandemic has done to society I believe - so much questioning/challenging other peoples choices, actions, behaviours. TBH, it's my (and a lot of other people) belief that not worrying until you start to feel sick is very much NOT sensible (generally speaking). Case in point - my situation. If I did nothing until I was symptomatic, then I am 100% certain that the jingle.family would have caught it. And we all know this virus hits everyone differently, from asymptomatic, to sniffles, to a case of a bad flu, to hospitalization, to death. Jingle.son had asthma as a child, so for me (and many others), it would be far from sensible to just wait to see symptoms before taking action.
But in the end, you do you (I type that with no sarcasm at all). Genuinely, everyone can do what works for them, and I ain't gonna be bothered if it has no impact on me or my wellbeing in any way. I did me (for my situation, I didn't see a need to test until I was symptomatic). Mike can do Mike - if wants to test daily, who fucking cares and it shouldn't it matter or bother or make anyone wonder anything/
Chad, I love you man, I really do, but this is aimed at me and Tim.
I'll just put out there that I really actually don't give a shit what others do. After my year, lol, trust me, there's very little in life I give a fuck about right now. At the end of the day, when everything is said and done, nothing matters. I've seen that. My view on reality has altered so people taking tests has less than zero impact on me.
I come from a very different perspective with the whole COVID thing and I was mainly just super curious on the whole over obsession with testing, especially when one isn't sick at all. Look, I'm not vaccinated at all. I'm not anti whatsoever, more power to people and each to their own but I just choose not to, I've never been a big jabber. I've been heavily judged for my take but that's water off a ducks back, couldn't give two fucks. I even fought my work and won when they tried to mandate it. So, yes, my perception on everything is different to most, and luckily I've had flus worse than COVID so that ramps up my curiosity even more. I'm not trying to trivialize it because I know for some it's serious.
Look, I just feel people obsess their lives these days worrying about it. You know, you could walk outside and be dead before you know it. Life is short and could be gone in a second, trust me I know! So, it's fascinating to me when people obsess and monopolize their time over it but again, each to their own.
But from someone who has cheated death, stop worrying about COVID and if you MIGHT catch it or be exposed to it. Once you catch it, you get over it and move on. My thinking is, fate plays a part, those that have died with COVID, their time was up, simple as that. The rest of us that get over it in a couple of days, it's not a big issue, life goes on. This isn't directed at you Chad just some thinking from my perspective at the moment, but seriously, when we say 'stop worrying,' it means just that, cause life can end before your eyes without you even knowing.
Just gonna throw two things out there, that might or might not mean anything to you. One is that "obsessing" might not be the best way to describe an abundance of caution. The precautions we each choose to make cover a massive range, from complete disregard to fairly stringent measures. Describing any of them beyond a certain point as "obsessive" is an unnecessarily judgemental way to put it. I'm not calling you out. I seriously doubt you were trying to be judgemental. I'm must pointing out that others might reasonably take it that way. Just one of those things that people may not think about.
The other is that your stark "well, your time's up, mate" is missing a different point. I don't really disagree with the sentiment, but I think it's missing an important detail. I'm not afraid of being dead. Far from it. Covid is one of the most godawful ways to go out I can think of, though. We're talking very bottom of the list. Car crash and struck by lightning are blessings compared to them. I don't take precautions because I'm afraid of dying. I'm not. I take precautions because I'm afraid of dying after two weeks being unable to breathe. Again, just something to think about.
This entirely depends on your own health. It's why everyone should have went to see their doctors to assess where their health lies and how to go about it with their doctor, if they were so concerned about how Covid may possibly affect them. There are people that have went to their doctor and were told not to get a vaccine, my auntie was one of them.
You presume that a doctor can tell you how you'll react. Dr. Kidney was very clear that he didn't have the foggiest idea how I'd react to covid because there's absolutely zero pattern to draw a conclusion from. He's had patients that were already on death's door shake it off like it was nothing, and he's had patients that were in perfectly good health drop dead. And mind you that 100% of his patients are in the high risk group. They get infected, they recover, they die, all at about the same rate as everybody else, and there's just no way of predicting how it'll go.
If I go from Covid, then so be it. This world sucks anyways and it's going to hell anyways.
Did you even read what I wrote? I share your cynicism about life, so "so be it" is perfectly applicable when it comes to dying. Not about dying of a specific disease. Would you say "Oh, if I die of ALS, so be it?"
Yes I would. See for me, I am only living because I wake up each day. I actually hate this life right now. But I am not going to go to lengths to try and kill myself. If it so happens that an illness causes me to go then so be it.
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Minor point regarding testing: if the tests are unreliable, that's a reason to do more of them. Not less.
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Minor point regarding testing: if the tests are unreliable, that's a reason to do more of them. Not less.
The home tests are only there under a FDA emergency authorization. Once that goes from Emergency to "Normal" those tests become moot as they are not approved by the FDA. it says so right on the box.
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I live in Sweden. The FDA has no power here. :P
In any case, approval is irrelevant to the statistical point I was making. If tests are unreliable due to false negatives, multiple tests reduce the likelihood that a positive result (which is nearly always true barring a systemic error) goes undetected by at least one of the tests.
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I took a home test and it came back positive. Yay me...
That sucks. I hope you feel better soon.
Also, another person I know from Progpower on facebook posted they are positive just today.
Mike's "obsessive" testing is showing to have been the prudent thing to do in such a situation of known covid spread and contact.
I fully take on board the nature of the word 'obsessive' and how I used and referred to it. I used it as a general term in relation to my views on the entire subject, not essentially as targeting a specific case, even if it came across like that.
You don't need to explain yourself more than you already have. I'm cool with your opinions and while I never thought you had any sort of negative intent, I think it did come off that way. It's all good, you've explained yourself perfectly fine.
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I took a home test and it came back positive. Yay me...
That sucks. I hope you feel better soon.
Also, another person I know from Progpower on facebook posted they are positive just today.
Mike's "obsessive" testing is showing to have been the prudent thing to do in such a situation of known covid spread and contact.
I fully take on board the nature of the word 'obsessive' and how I used and referred to it. I used it as a general term in relation to my views on the entire subject, not essentially as targeting a specific case, even if it came across like that.
You don't need to explain yourself more than you already have. I'm cool with your opinions and while I never thought you had any sort of negative intent, I think it did come off that way. It's all good, you've explained yourself perfectly fine.
Cheers for that Marc.
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Mate, my work wanted to mandate the vaccine for all staff or else we lost our jobs. Now, I wasn't going to quit my job over it, I'm not that stupid, I would have gotten it, but I don't go down without a fight.
They wanted staff to be vaccinated yet we didn't need to check the status of our customers. So vaccinated or non vaccinated people could enter the facility. So I potentially was being forced to vaccinate while I could have 200 people using the pool that I'm watching that aren't vaccinated?!? Fuck that.
There were holes in the conditions they were going by in relation to us getting vaccinated and I pulled it apart and they were wrong. I stand up for my staff with what I feel is right. If it came down to it, as I said I was getting it, but the basis around it didn't make sense and I've always challenged things like that.
Anti vax, whatever, it's just a title, at the end of the day, I couldn't care less if I am or not. I'm fine being judged about it, it doesn't matter.
As for the other stuff, we just have to agree to disagree I think. Over 6M dead, oh well, their time was up. The dude who didn't put on a seatbelt and died from a crash, oh well, he's fault for forgetting, his time was up. Again, I should be dead, so my viewpoint is fucked as I struggle through things, but man, I do love you, but I do think you need to relax on the whole thing just a little.
First, thanks for that additional context on your work situation. Second, zero judgment. I thought about typing it in my last response, but didn't think it needed to be said between us. But, just in case, now I'll say it. I have no judgment to you on this - you do you.
Lastly, to the bolded part ... you're definitely probably right. Seriously. On the flipside, for as much as I should could relax a little, you could recognize that COVID still is a serious matter for a whole shit ton of people. ;)
Now let's hug it out.
(https://c.tenor.com/EWYAXy0A2k0AAAAM/friends-joey.gif)
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I took a home test and it came back positive. Yay me...
That sucks. I hope you feel better soon.
Also, another person I know from Progpower on facebook posted they are positive just today.
Mike's "obsessive" testing is showing to have been the prudent thing to do in such a situation of known covid spread and contact.
I fully take on board the nature of the word 'obsessive' and how I used and referred to it. I used it as a general term in relation to my views on the entire subject, not essentially as targeting a specific case, even if it came across like that.
You don't need to explain yourself more than you already have. I'm cool with your opinions and while I never thought you had any sort of negative intent, I think it did come off that way. It's all good, you've explained yourself perfectly fine.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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I apologise if I come across that I'm trivializing COVID. I've always said, it's been mild over here compared to overseas, so that skews my viewpoint for sure. The stats are there and I'm certainly not a conspiracy type of guy either that says it doesn't exits, not in the slightest, stats are facts. I work with a couple of those and luckily I know I'm not that fucking crazy. These people are a little different again lol. So, I admit I may play it down and that has worked for me over here in my situation and for luckily, but I certainly realise the serious nature of it all for sure.
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Dude... and you know I love you just as much back, but this statement is literally an example of someone opposed to being vaccinated. You aren't the stereotypical "anti-vax" person, but you literally went to some length to not vaccinate yourself. This is the literal definition of being against/anti-vax(ccination). Just own it man. :lol
Sorry, if I may interject, but NO. I am not anti-vaccine, in fact I've had both and a booster, as has all my family, but I am pretty strongly against mandates. There is a difference between not wanting to vaxx YOURSELF, and not accepting that the government can (or should) DEMAND EVERYONE be vaxx'd. From a privacy perspective, I don't see much difference between having the right to abort a baby (I am pro-choice) and having the right to deny a needle in your arm. I get that we - society - is conflicting on that point, but that doesn't mean I agree with society. I'm okay with reasonable restrictions against those that don't vaxx - REASONABLE - but there are layers to this issue.
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Dude... and you know I love you just as much back, but this statement is literally an example of someone opposed to being vaccinated. You aren't the stereotypical "anti-vax" person, but you literally went to some length to not vaccinate yourself. This is the literal definition of being against/anti-vax(ccination). Just own it man. :lol
Sorry, if I may interject, but NO. I am not anti-vaccine, in fact I've had both and a booster, as has all my family, but I am pretty strongly against mandates. There is a difference between not wanting to vaxx YOURSELF, and not accepting that the government can (or should) DEMAND EVERYONE be vaxx'd. From a privacy perspective, I don't see much difference between having the right to abort a baby (I am pro-choice) and having the right to deny a needle in your arm. I get that we - society - is conflicting on that point, but that doesn't mean I agree with society. I'm okay with reasonable restrictions against those that don't vaxx - REASONABLE - but there are layers to this issue.
Thank you Bill, wonderfully articulated. If that was any other poster that posted that towards me, I would be banned now but cause it was Chad, I explained myself and kept it cool because I could have gotten pretty offended.
But, the situation at my work was poorly handled. When we had a cut off date to be vaccinated, the State Government Health Guidelines they referenced it to, I pulled apart and threw it back at them. It came down to the occupant density guidelines for staff and customers deep in the document. Can't remember exactly but there was a conflict I think my company referenced it where the occupant density was the same for customers and staff yet staff has to be vaxxed but customers didn't according to my organisation or something like that. The manager laughed at me when I presented it but it eventually went up to the Director and CEO. Phone calls were made to the Government's Health Department and what I pulled from the document was correct and the mandate was dropped.
I've had vaccines in the past but not for years now. I'm not anti, but I oppose the government trying to force me into a vaccine just to do my job when others would be able to visit my work, for non essential services and not have to be vaccinated, that was just absurd.
For months, non vaxxed weren't allowed out to restaurants, movie, bars etc without proof and I was fine sacrificing all that, I don't go out much anyway and that was my choice to sacrifice because of my decision. That has since all been dropped everywhere.
If it came down to it, I would have gotten vaccinated but in no way was I doing it just cause the company was telling me without a fight. I'm not anti-vax, but am anti-mandates for sure.
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Yeah, as someone who has gotten three COVID shots so far (the booster late last year), I totally agree with Bill's post as well. :tup :tup
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I've been thinking about this for a few weeks. It's going to take many years to calculate the total impact that covid had globally. IMO, almost every calamity we are currently experiencing can be partially or wholly attributable to covid. Supply chain woes, inflation, food and product shortages, labor force, and while I may be reaching a bit, it's also plausible that Putin took covid into account while factoring whether or not it was the right time to invade. This will be studied by scholars and books will be written. In the final analysis, it may turn out to be one of the most impactful events in human history.
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I've been thinking about this for a few weeks. It's going to take many years to calculate the total impact that covid had globally. IMO, almost every calamity we are currently experiencing can be partially or wholly attributable to covid. Supply chain woes, inflation, food and product shortages, labor force, and while I may be reaching a bit, it's also plausible that Putin took covid into account while factoring whether or not it was the right time to invade. This will be studied by scholars and books will be written. In the final analysis, it may turn out to be one of the most impactful events in human history.
Don't blame a virus. It was the actions of those in power that caused the problems we are dealing with now.
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I've been thinking about this for a few weeks. It's going to take many years to calculate the total impact that covid had globally. IMO, almost every calamity we are currently experiencing can be partially or wholly attributable to covid. Supply chain woes, inflation, food and product shortages, labor force, and while I may be reaching a bit, it's also plausible that Putin took covid into account while factoring whether or not it was the right time to invade. This will be studied by scholars and books will be written. In the final analysis, it may turn out to be one of the most impactful events in human history.
Don't blame a virus. It was the actions of those in power that caused the problems we are dealing with now.
Could you please elaborate? Are you saying over reaction, inaction, wrong course(s) of action. I'm just trying to get specifics.
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Let me state a few things first so that there (hopefully) isn’t any misunderstandings. All that I’m saying on this matter is without judgment nor does anything anyone has commented about change my opinion of anyone here. Kade is my closest non-US friend, and nothing about COVID, or politics, or music is going to change that. Bill’s in the top 3 (he knows who he's behind :lol). Any banter I/we have back and forth is just that - banter. We may have differences of opinions on matters, and may not understand the basis for those differences sometimes, but that could be said for anything - the love of growlie music, or Margot Robbie as the most beautiful woman on the planet. I can understand and accept these differences, even if I disagree with them. Now, to the matter at hand.
Dude... and you know I love you just as much back, but this statement is literally an example of someone opposed to being vaccinated. You aren't the stereotypical "anti-vax" person, but you literally went to some length to not vaccinate yourself. This is the literal definition of being against/anti-vax(ccination). Just own it man. :lol
Sorry, if I may interject, but NO. I am not anti-vaccine, in fact I've had both and a booster, as has all my family, but I am pretty strongly against mandates. There is a difference between not wanting to vaxx YOURSELF, and not accepting that the government can (or should) DEMAND EVERYONE be vaxx'd. From a privacy perspective, I don't see much difference between having the right to abort a baby (I am pro-choice) and having the right to deny a needle in your arm. I get that we - society - is conflicting on that point, but that doesn't mean I agree with society. I'm okay with reasonable restrictions against those that don't vaxx - REASONABLE - but there are layers to this issue.
Almost entirely fair points ;) :P . And yes, we (you and I) do not see eye-to-eye on this matter. Our governments demand / require things of citizens all the time for public health reasons. I personally don't see a significant issue in requiring people not to drink and drive (my body my choice!) If the gov't can mandate no one drink and drive in the interest of public health, I don't have issues with other mandates in the interest of public health - and a global multi year pandemic sometimes stretches the "reasonability" of such mandates ... which I'm willing to accept. Look, I know you have a different outlook on this point, so no need to waste your finger power pointing out how I'm wrong - you've done it ad infinitum already. We're not trying to convince each other of whose more right/wrong here, we're just expressing thoughts and opinions. Yours and mine are different on this point, so let's just agree to disagree.
My stance on the vaccines... For virtually my entire adult life, I did not get a flu vaccine because I didn’t see the need or value to me. I was completely ambivalent about it. I’m not wholly anti-vax - I didn’t actively chose *not* to get a flu vaccine. I have my MMR shots, and Tetanus, and others. Am I “anti-vax” because I was passively ambivalent about the flu vaccine? I wouldn’t say so. But (imo) people taking an approach similar to what Kade has/does described .... perhaps the more accurate term is anti-THIS-vax. Look, I’m not saying this as an attack or with judgment (see post above), but just be honest and real about things. When one actively decides for themselves they don’t want/need the vaccine, and poses an official challenge and escalation to their CEO about getting the vaccine, they are against the vaccine - and I get that it's with their own completely valid and legitimate reasons. I personally don't fully understand or agree with that position, but that's me. I also don't agree that Margot Robbie is the hottest woman on earth, or that growls are generally an appealing vocal style. But that's me, and others would disagree with me. And that's ok. You do you (royal); I'll do me
I also don't buy into the notion that people are JUST anti-mandates. Would you go into a restaurant that had a red sticker for a health and safety violations on the door? Would you buy a house that didn't have an electrical safety certificate? Do you wear a seatbelt? Do you have car insurance? All of those things are mandated. And few people blow a gasket over those.
Let me posit this to the group. I assume that in Kade's line of work, swim instructors and emergency personnel are required to have police background checks and/or be certified in CPR and other health measures? Are we against those measures? Would we tolerate or accept skirting around that "mandate"? I suspect the people that want to point the finger at the gov't for various layers of vaccine mandates are not against all “government mandates”. But *this* mandate was something to take a stand over. That tells me that (and this isn't directed at you, Kade, as it's the case for millions of people - maybe 10s of millions), it is ‘this mandate, for this vaccine’ that they are/were against* - not that they are/were anti-gov’t mandates generally speaking.
*And I simply don't understand why this is/was the case for so many.
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I've been thinking about this for a few weeks. It's going to take many years to calculate the total impact that covid had globally. IMO, almost every calamity we are currently experiencing can be partially or wholly attributable to covid. Supply chain woes, inflation, food and product shortages, labor force, and while I may be reaching a bit, it's also plausible that Putin took covid into account while factoring whether or not it was the right time to invade. This will be studied by scholars and books will be written. In the final analysis, it may turn out to be one of the most impactful events in human history.
Don't blame a virus. It was the actions of those in power that caused the problems we are dealing with now.
Could you please elaborate? Are you saying over reaction, inaction, wrong course(s) of action. I'm just trying to get specifics.
Any action really. Done by politicians. Not a virus.
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Considering all states and countries acted differently and there was no difference in the end game, I'm not sure I can so easily blame politicians other than on very specific choices. Generally speaking, I think I would disagree blaming politicians over the virus itself.
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I think as we look back there will be Monday morning quarterbacking but there were two administration's involved, as well as multiple governmental agencies, pharma companies and countless others. Their goal, having minimal data in real time, was to keep as many humans alive as possible and to keep health care facilities from imploding. Difficult decisions had to be made. I can't agree that politicians were to blame.
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Agree with the Monday morning quarterbacking statement...but people seem to have short memories.
Early days, there was little to no PPE for medical providers. In the US there were not enough ventilators. I'd like to just consider where we would be today had the government NOT stepped in. Because when our doctors and nurses get sick and some of them die, who takes care of the rest of us? Even for non-Covid related things? Who provides your cancer treatment? Who delivers your baby? Who does your angiogram after your heart attack? Who takes care of your parent after they have a stroke?
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Let me state a few things first so that there (hopefully) isn’t any misunderstandings. All that I’m saying on this matter is without judgment nor does anything anyone has commented about change my opinion of anyone here. Kade is my closest non-US friend, and nothing about COVID, or politics, or music is going to change that. Bill’s in the top 3 (he knows who he's behind :lol). Any banter I/we have back and forth is just that - banter. We may have differences of opinions on matters, and may not understand the basis for those differences sometimes, but that could be said for anything - the love of growlie music, or Margot Robbie as the most beautiful woman on the planet. I can understand and accept these differences, even if I disagree with them. Now, to the matter at hand.
Wives excluded, AMEN to that.
Dude... and you know I love you just as much back, but this statement is literally an example of someone opposed to being vaccinated. You aren't the stereotypical "anti-vax" person, but you literally went to some length to not vaccinate yourself. This is the literal definition of being against/anti-vax(ccination). Just own it man. :lol
Sorry, if I may interject, but NO. I am not anti-vaccine, in fact I've had both and a booster, as has all my family, but I am pretty strongly against mandates. There is a difference between not wanting to vaxx YOURSELF, and not accepting that the government can (or should) DEMAND EVERYONE be vaxx'd. From a privacy perspective, I don't see much difference between having the right to abort a baby (I am pro-choice) and having the right to deny a needle in your arm. I get that we - society - is conflicting on that point, but that doesn't mean I agree with society. I'm okay with reasonable restrictions against those that don't vaxx - REASONABLE - but there are layers to this issue.
Almost entirely fair points ;) :P . And yes, we (you and I) do not see eye-to-eye on this matter. Our governments demand / require things of citizens all the time for public health reasons. I personally don't see a significant issue in requiring people not to drink and drive (my body my choice!) If the gov't can mandate no one drink and drive in the interest of public health, I don't have issues with other mandates in the interest of public health - and a global multi year pandemic sometimes stretches the "reasonability" of such mandates ... which I'm willing to accept. Look, I know you have a different outlook on this point, so no need to waste your finger power pointing out how I'm wrong - you've done it ad infinitum already. We're not trying to convince each other of whose more right/wrong here, we're just expressing thoughts and opinions. Yours and mine are different on this point, so let's just agree to disagree.[/quote]
We can and will disagree and still be friends; but I should point out, drunk driving is not analogous. I said I WOULD support reasonable consequences for no vaccine (losing one's job is not reasonable) just like I accept that if I drink I can't, temporarily, drive. Driving is not a right. So as long as you don't prevent me from DRINKING, we're good. We just need to find the vaccine equivalent of "Uber".
I also don't buy into the notion that people are JUST anti-mandates. Would you go into a restaurant that had a red sticker for a health and safety violations on the door? Would you buy a house that didn't have an electrical safety certificate? Do you wear a seatbelt? Do you have car insurance? All of those things are mandated. And few people blow a gasket over those.
You're confusing things. They aren't mandated; they are required in order to do certain other things. I CAN go in that restaurant if I'm a sucker for punishment (and diahrea). I sold my house half a year ago with no inspection; so someone DID buy my house without at least PROOF of an electrical safety certificate. I sometimes wear a seatbelt, and sometimes I don't. If I don't drive, I don't need car insurance. I can make the choice. Sitting on my couch, I need not do a thing. The vaccine mandate - like the healthcare mandate, which I also oppose (though I know why they did it) - affects my being even if I'm not doing anything other than sitting on the couch.
Let me posit this to the group. I assume that in Kade's line of work, swim instructors and emergency personnel are required to have police background checks and/or be certified in CPR and other health measures? Are we against those measures? Would we tolerate or accept skirting around that "mandate"? I suspect the people that want to point the finger at the gov't for various layers of vaccine mandates are not against all “government mandates”. But *this* mandate was something to take a stand over. That tells me that (and this isn't directed at you, Kade, as it's the case for millions of people - maybe 10s of millions), it is ‘this mandate, for this vaccine’ that they are/were against* - not that they are/were anti-gov’t mandates generally speaking.
*And I simply don't understand why this is/was the case for so many.
Again, not the same. I don't need a vaccine to do my job. I DO need a law license. And if I'm selling myself as an attorney, I should be able to prove that I am what I say, and the license is that. I can - like with my PE license - decide to let it lapse. No harm no foul, though I can't stamp and sign drawings anymore. I can also decide to renew if I choose to go back to being an engineer. My choice. If Kade is a life guard (I know you're more than that, buddy, but bear with) I DO need to know if he can swim. I DON'T need to know if he's vaccinated.
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Look, I know you have a different outlook on this point, so no need to waste your finger power pointing out how I'm wrong - you've done it ad infinitum already.
And yet, here we are again. :lol <sigh>
We can and will disagree and still be friends; but I should point out, drunk driving is not analogous. I said I WOULD support reasonable consequences for no vaccine (losing one's job is not reasonable) just like I accept that if I drink I can't, temporarily, drive. Driving is not a right. So as long as you don't prevent me from DRINKING, we're good. We just need to find the vaccine equivalent of "Uber".
In the context of a global pandemic, I don't really care about "rights" of US citizens. This isn't a *US* pandemic, it's a global one - so I don't take into consideration "rights" as defined by various Constitutions. The virus sure doesn't care about said "rights".
I also don't buy into the notion that people are JUST anti-mandates. Would you go into a restaurant that had a red sticker for a health and safety violations on the door? Would you buy a house that didn't have an electrical safety certificate? Do you wear a seatbelt? Do you have car insurance? All of those things are mandated. And few people blow a gasket over those.
You're confusing things. They aren't mandated;
Well, passing health inspections is for restaurants; Home builders have to pass their inspections to in order to sell their product.(I meant to put "new homes" in my original statement... sure resale is a different case).
Again, not the same. I don't need a vaccine to do my job. I DO need a law license.
First, if you're going to pull the "not the same" card (twice in this post now), then please avoid the abortion comparison to COVID... because pregnancies and a global pandemic aren't the same. Second, why do you need a law license to do your job? Required by law I assume, which in a sense is tantamount to a "mandate"?
If Kade is a life guard (I know you're more than that, buddy, but bear with) I DO need to know if he can swim. I DON'T need to know if he's vaccinated.
On an individual level, you have somewhat of a valid point. On a societal level though? Let's just leave it at you and I disagreeing with what's reasonable to accept in the interests of public health and safety.
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If Kade is a life guard (I know you're more than that, buddy, but bear with) I DO need to know if he can swim. I DON'T need to know if he's vaccinated.
Bingo.
I'm a pretty damn good swimmer, a good lifeguard, can maintain pool pumps and water quality. I need certificates for all those, being vaccinated or not, that doesn't come into the conversation.
I'll put this out there. Chad doesn't still believe my stance considering the lengths I went to to get the mandate overturned. The basis was all customers vaxxed or non vaxxed could come in and use the aquatic facilities while staff had to be vaccinated. Say someone has a heart attack and I need to give CPR (which has happened but only once in my career to me), I have no idea if this person is vaccinated or not. Since COVID we are taught that rescue breaths don't have to be given but I'm getting close and personal with this person trying to revive them and I don't know their status on vaccinations. Is that fair to me? but would I bork and not try and save the guy? Of course not.
Now, I know you'll come back and say that's what the company was doing trying to protect the worker getting the mandate, but isn't that my choice? I sure as hell am not going to shy away from rescuing someone because of COVID. I did CPR once many many years ago, an older man, was dead before he hit the floor but froth and all from the mouth, blood from his head from hitting the floor, I went all in and blew into him and broke some ribs trying to revive him. Diseases or anything did not come into my mind at the time.
Now, my point of view is that I've dealt with vomit, blood, shit, piss all hands on. I've stuck my hands up toilets to unblock them and cleaned up some bogus things. People really are the worst, that's my line of work, and I've never gotten sick....yet. But this is all MY CHOICE, I'll deal and touch anything, it doesn't worry me so the thinking that the company would lose me as a worker who keeps their venues operating because I wouldn't get a COVID vaccination is just laughable. So this line from Chad "what's reasonable to accept in the interests of public health and safety." doesn't wash with me from what I've seen and done, sorry. I'd get something like Hepatitis way before I'd start worrying about a bout of COVID.
Maybe you just need to be in a line of work that I'm in to get a different perspective, I'm not sure. I just see things how they are and call a spade a spade.
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If Kade is a life guard (I know you're more than that, buddy, but bear with) I DO need to know if he can swim. I DON'T need to know if he's vaccinated.
Bingo.
I'm a pretty damn good swimmer, a good lifeguard, can maintain pool pumps and water quality. I need certificates for all those, being vaccinated or not, that doesn't come into the conversation.
Totally fine, and totally accurate. I just have trouble with the notion of people (generally) being supposedly "against mandates" around vaccination, but don't balk at other mandates - especially when they're are all designed to accomplish the same fundamental thing - public safety.
I'll put this out there. Chad doesn't still believe my stance ...
Not true. I believe your stance. I just don't necessarily agree with or personally relate with it. Nonetheless, I understand it is your stance and I accept it - kinda like growls. Honestly mate, think if it the same way. On an individual level, this is no bigger deal to me than that.
I'd get something like Hepatitis way before I'd start worrying about a bout of COVID.
And yet you got COVID.... and were luckily one of the not-serious cases. Which I'm personally very grateful for.
Maybe you just need to be in a line of work that I'm in to get a different perspective, I'm not sure. I just see things how they are and call a spade a spade.
Maybe ... but I definitely know something about calling a spade a spade. ;)
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If Kade is a life guard (I know you're more than that, buddy, but bear with) I DO need to know if he can swim. I DON'T need to know if he's vaccinated.
Bingo.
I'm a pretty damn good swimmer, a good lifeguard, can maintain pool pumps and water quality. I need certificates for all those, being vaccinated or not, that doesn't come into the conversation.
Totally fine, and totally accurate. I just have trouble with the notion of people (generally) being supposedly "against mandates" around vaccination, but don't balk at other mandates - especially when they're are all designed to accomplish the same fundamental thing - public safety.
Because those things are requirements to do my job, and always have been. A COVID vaccine is not.
I'll put this out there. Chad doesn't still believe my stance ...
Not true. I believe your stance. I just don't necessarily agree with or personally relate with it. Nonetheless, I understand it is your stance and I accept it - kinda like growls. Honestly mate, think if it the same way. On an individual level, this is no bigger deal to me than that.
That maybe comes back to our lines of work being different perhaps, not sure. Not sure why you keep bringing growls up? :lol
I'd get something like Hepatitis way before I'd start worrying about a bout of COVID.
And yet you got COVID.... and were luckily one of the not-serious cases. Which I'm personally very grateful for.
I'd take another bout of COVID over Hepatitis anyday.
Maybe you just need to be in a line of work that I'm in to get a different perspective, I'm not sure. I just see things how they are and call a spade a spade.
Maybe ... but I definitely know something about calling a spade a spade. ;)
I know you do, you're not an idiot and I'm not saying anything about your line of work, you're more successful than I'll ever be but I think it could have an influence on things.
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I feel left out.
Quote.
Quote.
Quote.
Quote.
Quote.
Quote.
And....
Quote.
I feel much better.
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I feel left out.
Quote.
Quote.
Quote.
Quote.
Quote.
Quote.
And....
Quote.
I feel much better.
Trying to work the quoting part out took more time than the responses, brutal.
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Hell, me singular responses are short. Stads puts me in a coma reading his manifestos. (Love you Stads!)
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Hell, me singular responses are short. Stads puts me in a coma reading his manifestos. (Love you Stads!)
So you can spell manifestos, but you can't fucking spell...MY??
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Hell, me singular responses are short. Stads puts me in a coma reading his manifestos. (Love you Stads!)
So you can spell manifestos, but you can't fucking spell...MY??
I just read it in a bad British accent.
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I typed it as Bizaro.
Adami will understand. Tim, clueless.
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What's Bizaro?
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Exactly.
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Is that some sort of show or something?
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.oraziB sa ti depyt I
.dnatsrednu lliw imadA .sseleulc ,miT
Indeed.
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.oraziB sa ti depyt I
.dnatsrednu lliw imadA .sseleulc ,miT
Indeed.
:lol
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(https://c.tenor.com/MjePgsk1DRcAAAAM/how-why.gif)
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Maybe you just need to be in a line of work that I'm in to get a different perspective, I'm not sure. I just see things how they are and call a spade a spade.
Maybe ... but I definitely know something about calling a spade a spade. ;)
I know you do, you're not an idiot and I'm not saying anything about your line of work, you're more successful than I'll ever be but I think it could have an influence on things.
I never thought you were saying anything about my line of work (nor was I trying to imply anything about yours. Also, I was just trying to be cheeky with the comment about knowing how to call a spade a spade.
Trying to work the quoting part out took more time than the responses, brutal.
Chat with me and Bill for long enough, you'll get the hang of it. :rollin :rollin :rollin
Anyway, back to how this all started.... I guess Melphina is still banned for breaking the unwritten rule of hurting Bosk's feelings? :lol :lol
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Yeah....uhh......sorry Mike.
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If Kade is a life guard (I know you're more than that, buddy, but bear with) I DO need to know if he can swim. I DON'T need to know if he's vaccinated.
Bingo.
I'm a pretty damn good swimmer, a good lifeguard, can maintain pool pumps and water quality. I need certificates for all those, being vaccinated or not, that doesn't come into the conversation.
Totally fine, and totally accurate. I just have trouble with the notion of people (generally) being supposedly "against mandates" around vaccination, but don't balk at other mandates - especially when they're are all designed to accomplish the same fundamental thing - public safety.
You and me both; I've alluded to this idea elsewhere in the P/R forum to other issues. For me, I'm NOT cool with other mandates, as a general proposition. I approach these things criticially. For me, I start with the premise that "Government ought to mind their own bee's wax" and rationalize from there. Then there's the role of the individual in a democratic society. I have to decide whether I want to live in this America, and I have to realize that - despite what various TikTok influencers tell you - I don't get to set the terms of that "living". I've chosen to live my life in a way that isn't a constant battle; if the mandate passes through the appropriate steps of Congress, I'm going to get vaccinated. Doesn't mean I AGREE with that, but it does mean that I accept my responsibility to be a good citizen more than I want my opinions validated and affirmed. There's a LOT I do on a daily basis to live in our society that I disagree with.
I think others might disagree, but I don't consider this hypocrisy. It's a series of choices that may or may not all fit together snugly.
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If Kade is a life guard (I know you're more than that, buddy, but bear with) I DO need to know if he can swim. I DON'T need to know if he's vaccinated.
Bingo.
I'm a pretty damn good swimmer, a good lifeguard, can maintain pool pumps and water quality. I need certificates for all those, being vaccinated or not, that doesn't come into the conversation.
Totally fine, and totally accurate. I just have trouble with the notion of people (generally) being supposedly "against mandates" around vaccination, but don't balk at other mandates - especially when they're are all designed to accomplish the same fundamental thing - public safety.
I think others might disagree, but I don't consider this hypocrisy. It's a series of choices that may or may not all fit together snugly.
I don't think I see any hypocrisy there. You have your belief systems, but will still do your parts as/when required (or mandated) in a democratic nation. Seems legit to me
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*Clank*
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Fauci tested positive. Guess it had to happen eventually.
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I can't wait till famous people getting Covid stops being a news story.
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I can't wait till famous people getting Covid stops being a news story.
I generally only care if it’s an older celebrity I like. Cause then I get nervous.
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I can't wait till famous people getting Covid stops being a news story.
Same here...though I thought the Fauc getting it was noteworthy.
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I can't wait till famous people getting Covid stops being a news story.
Same here...though I thought the Fauc getting it was noteworthy.
That's cute. Does he call you Lone? :lol
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I can't wait till famous people getting Covid stops being a news story.
Same here...though I thought the Fauc getting it was noteworthy.
That's cute. Does he call you Lone? :lol
No.. He calls me The Lone
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I call you, Mr. Thrust.
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Gotta believe the Fauch was double vaxxed and double boosted, like many of us, and still got it.
It seems far less lethal now so that's good. Maybe it's time to move on and realize we're stuck with this forever. I've been wearing a mask at the hospital now for 27 months. I'm over it.
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Gotta believe the Fauch was double vaxxed and double boosted, like many of us, and still got it.
It seems far less lethal now so that's good. Maybe it's time to move on and realize we're stuck with this forever. I've been wearing a mask at the hospital now for 27 months. I'm over it.
Same dude... We're still required to mask. Just us, the food servers, all the employees I serve are mask less. And we test twice a week..
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To this day, I still don't know if I've had it or not. Either had it with little to no symptoms (possibly allergies) or never had it. Had my 2 shots, but passed on the 3rd booster. :dunno:
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Gotta believe the Fauch was double vaxxed and double boosted, like many of us, and still got it.
It seems far less lethal now so that's good. Maybe it's time to move on and realize we're stuck with this forever. I've been wearing a mask at the hospital now for 27 months. I'm over it.
Same dude...
Same as well. I was a bit past the time frame for the second booster, so I got it done just because it seems like the smart thing to do to keep my risk of bad symptoms if I get it as low as possible. But not particularly concerned, and haven't been for awhile.
And, yeah, I know "the virus doesn't care whether I'm 'over it.'" Yeah. Viruses aren't capable of "caring" about anything. We get it. But we've long been past the point where most of us understand that it is going to spread regardless and that it is not going to have more than a bad flu's or bad cold's impact on the overwhelmingly vast majority of people who get it, which is why most people are out there living their lives and not worrying about it.
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Yeah, and that seems to be a general consensus, even in my area where everyone has been overtly strict in following the mandates. Alameda County just re-installed their mandate and I'd say half the population are basically 'whatevs'
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All the way back to the beginning of this it was never about trying to stop people from getting it.....it was about not overwhelming the hospitals. Never say never....but, I think we're past that point and we can all agree that Covid (or variants of Covid) is not going to vanish....it'll be a part of our lives for years if not forever.
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All the way back to the beginning of this it was never about trying to stop people from getting it.....it was about not overwhelming the hospitals. Never say never....but, I think we're past that point and we can all agree that Covid (or variants of Covid) is not going to vanish....it'll be a part of our lives for years if not forever.
I think that was a main part, but also minimizing harm. If Stadler gets some mild covid and recovers, who cares? Right? Hell, we can probably point and laugh. But the problem is when people are dying, getting long covid, etc. Not avoidable by any stretch, but something to always try to reduce.
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All the way back to the beginning of this it was never about trying to stop people from getting it.....it was about not overwhelming the hospitals. Never say never....but, I think we're past that point and we can all agree that Covid (or variants of Covid) is not going to vanish....it'll be a part of our lives for years if not forever.
I think that was a main part, but also minimizing harm. If Stadler gets some mild covid and recovers, who cares? Right? Hell, we can probably point and laugh. But the problem is when people are dying, getting long covid, etc. Not avoidable by any stretch, but something to always try to reduce.
For sure.....it's still a scary ass virus. Just recently a guy I knew socially, we'd hung out a dozen or so times and our kids hang out.....he had a pretty major back surgery. After the surgery the meds he was on hammered his immune system....he catches Covid....spends three months in the ICU and ultimately died. Dude was 44 years old.....more or less in good health other than that back surgery but still.....'young' guy who's body couldn't handle the virus due to his weakened state.
I am under no illusions that the virus can still kill and can still cause issues. I just think that 'we' as a society....America in particular.....are past the point of restrictions and lockdowns etc etc. Not saying that's right or wrong or whatever....I just don't see us ever going back to what it was as far as the mandates and what not.
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All the way back to the beginning of this it was never about trying to stop people from getting it.....it was about not overwhelming the hospitals. Never say never....but, I think we're past that point and we can all agree that Covid (or variants of Covid) is not going to vanish....it'll be a part of our lives for years if not forever.
Yup. I still regularly check the NJ stats. I find it interesting. This current wave is already a good ways down from the peak (still has a lot to go though) but it's very noticeable on the curves to see how this wave the death curve didn't shoot too far up. It did go up as a 4 week lag over cases but it has never rose anywhere near the heights of previous waves although the cases went past all but the January wave. To me, it seems covid is not as deadly as it once was. It's not going anywhere and I still believe it will take a miracle to never get covid, but this is life now. There will be another wave, I'd guess later in the fall.
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it will take a miracle to never get covid
Every person that I knew who hadn't had covid and had made it the past two years without getting it......has come down with it in the past few months. I don't know that I personally know anyone who hasn't had it at least once.
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it will take a miracle to never get covid
Every person that I knew who hadn't had covid and had made it the past two years without getting it......has come down with it in the past few months. I don't know that I personally know anyone who hasn't had it at least once.
*raises hand* That isn't to say that I think I won't get it. But so far, nothing (or have been asymptomatic and didn't know I had it).
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it will take a miracle to never get covid
Every person that I knew who hadn't had covid and had made it the past two years without getting it......has come down with it in the past few months. I don't know that I personally know anyone who hasn't had it at least once.
We don't know each other from anywhere but here, but I have not had it, my husband has not had it, my kids have not had it (that we know of). That said, I fully expect to come into contact with it at some point. I am not looking forward to it - who has time to be sick? - but am confident that I will be fine because of my vaccines and my dedication to hand washing and avoiding people who are sick. I must say I am getting less patient with people who come to work and attend meetings when they have had close contact exposure. Yesterday a woman came to a meeting at work and her child had just tested positive that morning - though she did wear an N95 mask. But this same woman also attended a retirement dinner last night for a coworker and guess what? You can't wear a mask when you eat. :tdwn
She made her own choice and I have to live with that. But it does annoy the fuck out of me. I have a friend who just began chemo for breast cancer. I'd like to go and spend some time with her but just this one possible exposure makes me feel like that is too big of a risk. I feel like 2 1/2 years in, the notion of being aware of risking others' health shouldn't be a hard ask. And I'm not talking about going to the store or a concert - if I don't want the risk, I don't have to take it. I don't have that choice at work if people come in sick or exposed.
I had the flu about 5 years ago. I was sicker than I have ever been in my entire life. NO WAY I want to go through that again. I even missed Christmas with my family. And I had gotten a flu vaccine that year. I can only imagine how sick I would've gotten if I hadn't.
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it will take a miracle to never get covid
Every person that I knew who hadn't had covid and had made it the past two years without getting it......has come down with it in the past few months. I don't know that I personally know anyone who hasn't had it at least once.
It seemed from my own anecdotal evidence that most (almost all that I personally know) of the people who got covid on this current wave had never had it before.
However, my gf and her sister and parents have not had it yet. I woke up in their house sick with covid and they didn't get it :lol so I don't know how that family has skirted it for so long, but I keep telling my gf that her time is coming :lol I do think they survived my infection because they got their 3rd moderna shot right before I got sick with covid so their immunity was probably pretty strong then. And generally, it seems the moderna shots are the strongest.
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I hear you, Harmony.
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To Bosk and Harmony.....I hope your continued avoidance of 'the Covid' continues! :tup
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To Bosk and Harmony.....I hope your continued avoidance of 'the Covid' continues! :tup
Yeah, I'll try to do the same too. :tup
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To Bosk and Harmony.....I hope your continued avoidance of 'the Covid' continues! :tup
Me too--especially since I have 2 weeks of back to back summer camps with the kids coming up shortly. Glad I just got me second booster. :lol
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I read a nice article yesterday titled What does it mean to say ‘COVID is over’?. And while the dire crisis of the pandemic is over, COVID will never be over. It was a really good op ed about the one side that COVID still kills (at least in Ontario) 20-ish people a day - which at that rate, sustained across a year, would put it in the running for one of the major contributors to overall mortality. On top of the deaths it is causing, it is also inflicting illness, including serious illness, that continues to exact a real toll on our health-care system, though the hospitalization metrics are improving at this time. Even beyond all of that, there are still social, emotional, and economic costs incurred by COVID-19 that are being felt widely across the population — and medically compromised or otherwise vulnerable individuals still must live their lives with extreme caution.
But there actually is a strong case that it *is* over, in a meaningful sense. Ontario just weathered a wave in which all indicators pointed to widespread infection. We can look at scientific indicators like wastewater, or we can look at the anecdotal ones. As Gary pointed out, so many households, including my own, have had a case of COVID-19 in the past couple of months. That was not the case in any previous wave. And yet we got through this wave, despite the obvious widespread infections, with virtually no public-health measures. Masking is not mandatory outside a few logical, niche environments. Schools stayed open. So did restaurants, bars, entertainment venues, sports complexes, and businesses of all kinds. There were no capacity limits. Hospital utilization certainly rose, but in the most critical metric — ICU occupancy — we never came close to the levels we have seen in previous waves.
I think the journalist summed it up perfectly - COVID-19 will always be with us, but maybe the pandemic is about as "over" as it’s ever going to be. It won’t get much better than this anytime soon. Are we at the point where this is what COVID-19 will be like going forward?
Ya know, after reading the article, it dawned on me that there is a very good chance the people I love will die of COVID-19. Again, as Gary recounted, as friends and loved ones get older and more medically vulnerable, it seems like a grim inevitability that, sooner or later, instead of falling victim to cancer or seasonal influenza, or some other illness or ailment, they may pick up COVID-19 and die from it. Depending entirely on when that happens, though, they may not be considered a victim of the pandemic.
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Ya know, after reading the article, it dawned on me that there is a very good chance the people I love will die of COVID-19. Again, as Gary recounted, as friends and loved ones get older and more medically vulnerable, it seems like a grim inevitability that, sooner or later, instead of falling victim to cancer or seasonal influenza, or some other illness or ailment, they may pick up COVID-19 and die from it. Depending entirely on when that happens, though, they may not be considered a victim of the pandemic.
This is a fucked up thought. I mean, why even think it?
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Ya know, after reading the article, it dawned on me that there is a very good chance the people I love will die of COVID-19. Again, as Gary recounted, as friends and loved ones get older and more medically vulnerable, it seems like a grim inevitability that, sooner or later, instead of falling victim to cancer or seasonal influenza, or some other illness or ailment, they may pick up COVID-19 and die from it. Depending entirely on when that happens, though, they may not be considered a victim of the pandemic.
This is a fucked up thought. I mean, why even think it?
It's already happening. It doesn't even have to be an age-related thing. People have put off care because of the pandemic and are now finding out they have cancer and a lot of other life-threatening diseases.
My sister did not die of Covid but she very likely died because of Covid. She had health problems that her doctors and 3 hospital stays did not manage well because of the pandemic. She received sub-standard care because of Covid. It cost her her life. We are in the process of obtaining her medical records and working with a malpractice attorney. We don't expect to even go to court. We expect the pandemic to be the excuse for any issue that we may uncover during the records review. It is going to be a long haul. We have been told the process of obtaining the records and having them reviewed by experts will take over a year. We are in a long line of families doing the exact same thing.
And yes, Covid will be around like the seasonal flu. And it will kill people every year, just like the seasonal flu.
It is not a fucked up thought, it is reality.
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I’m not sure what’s fucked up about it … as Harmony said, it’s happening already. Happened to Gary’s friend. And realizing / accepting that COVID will be with us forever also brings about future deaths will occur after the “pandemic” is unofficially and officially over.
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OK. I see.
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I mean, we're all gonna die of something. I don't understand what changes just because it's COVID.
I’m not sure what’s fucked up about it … as Harmony said, it’s happening already. Happened to Gary’s friend. And realizing / accepting that COVID will be with us forever also brings about future deaths will occur after the “pandemic” is unofficially and officially over.
Sorry mate, I don't fully understand your point. You do everything you physically can to avoid and manage it so I wouldn't waste energy worrying about it.
Just add it to the list of cancer, flu's, disease, suicide, old age, freak accidents, allergic reactions, heart attacks, strokes, choking, drowning, aneurysms, violence.........meh. Such is life.
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I mean, we're all gonna die of something. I don't understand what changes just because it's COVID.
I’m not sure what’s fucked up about it … as Harmony said, it’s happening already. Happened to Gary’s friend. And realizing / accepting that COVID will be with us forever also brings about future deaths will occur after the “pandemic” is unofficially and officially over.
Sorry mate, I don't fully understand your point. You do everything you physically can to avoid and manage it so I wouldn't waste energy worrying about it.
Just add it to the list of cancer, flu's, disease, suicide, old age, freak accidents, allergic reactions, heart attacks, strokes, choking, drowning, aneurysms, violence.........meh. Such is life.
I don't waste energy worrying about it. My comment was "It dawned on me"... the thought came, and it went. I just thought I'd comment on it. 100% agree with your second point up there. To that end, I do actively take reasonable steps to avoid accidents, heart disease, violence etc ... And so I do/will with COVID as well.
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I mean, we're all gonna die of something.
Speak for yourself.
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Neither I nor anyone in my nuclear family, nor my Mom nor my brother, have gotten COVID yet, although I suppose an asymptomatic case can't be ruled out.
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Neither I nor anyone in my nuclear family, nor my Mom nor my brother, have gotten COVID yet, although I suppose an asymptomatic case can't be ruled out.
This.
At this point, my wife, two kids, and I are the ONLY people I personally know who have NOT tested positive, This includes my extended family and dozens of co-workers and even all 4 members of my band?!?
And it's not for lack of trying–I have taken every available precaution, worn masks religiously, got every shot when I was supposed to, and have probably taken 50 tests at this point (due to constant close contacts).
I don't want to minimize or trivialize the risk (frankly, it's simply not in my nature to do so), but I made the decision a few weeks back to stop wearing a mask (which I've long questioned the sense in wearing).
If, after all of this time, I haven't caught it, then if/when I do, I will chalk it up to God's plan.
That, or, as Hef pointed out, I've had asymptomatic cases, which is entirely possible.
Otherwise, I'm at a loss.
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I mean, we're all gonna die of something. I don't understand what changes just because it's COVID.
I wonder how many people have died in car wrecks on the way to getting a vaccine.
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I mean, we're all gonna die of something. I don't understand what changes just because it's COVID.
I wonder how many people have died in car wrecks on the way to getting a vaccine.
Probably a shit-ton fewer than died alone in a hospital with a tube down their throat.
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I mean, we're all gonna die of something. I don't understand what changes just because it's COVID.
I wonder how many people have died in car wrecks on the way to getting a vaccine.
Probably a shit-ton fewer than died alone in a hospital with a tube down their throat.
And several other tubes as well. I wish I could post it here but there was a TikTok video of a nurse describing all the tubes. Believe me, you want NONE of those.
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Well, congratulations on completely missing the point.
:clap:
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Well, congratulations on completely missing the point.
:clap:
It's kinda hard to miss nothing. :biggrin:
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Well, congratulations on completely missing the point.
:clap:
It's kinda hard to miss nothing. :biggrin:
You went right past irony into whole new category. It certainly can't be understood for you. :loser:
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Well, congratulations on completely missing the point.
:clap:
:lol
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I mean, we're all gonna die of something.
Speak for yourself.
:lol Touche.
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I mean, we're all gonna die of something. I don't understand what changes just because it's COVID.
I wonder how many people have died in car wrecks on the way to getting a vaccine.
Are you anti seatbelt? That's the real question?
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I mean, we're all gonna die of something. I don't understand what changes just because it's COVID.
I wonder how many people have died in car wrecks on the way to getting a vaccine.
Current estimates of US traffic accidents during 2020 were 1.31 deaths per 100,000,000 miles driven.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/2020-fatality-data-show-increased-traffic-fatalities-during-pandemic
According to this site, the vast majority of the population live within 10 miles of a vaccination site, but lets assume a worst case scenario of 50 miles (an hours drive).
https://www.westhealth.org/resource/vaxmap-potential-covid-19-vaccine-locations/
In 2022 there were 228.2 million registered drivers, lets assume that all of them decide to drive to get vaccinated, and also actually decide to get vaccinated (again not realistic, but a fairly reasonable "worst case"). That equates to 228.2 million multiplied by 100 miles = 22.8 billion miles driven to get vaccinated.
Multiply that by the death rate = (28,800,000,000/100,000,000)*1.31 = 378 deaths, or approximately 0.04% of the current COVID death toll.
So, to answer your question: not many.
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Well, congratulations on completely missing the point.
:clap:
I personally feel that Jingle's takes on the pandemic have mostly been all wrong since day 1, so don't make the mistake of thinking I am taking his side when I say this: I have no idea what point you were trying to make.
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That you have a better chance of dying in a car crash than you do from Coronavirus. That's what he meant by it.
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Well, congratulations on completely missing the point.
:clap:
I personally feel that Jingle's takes on the pandemic have mostly been all wrong since day 1, so don't make the mistake of thinking I am taking his side when I say this: I have no idea what point you were trying to make.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/1MJ7cRuntKE3C/giphy.gif)
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Well, congratulations on completely missing the point.
:clap:
I personally feel that Jingle's takes on the pandemic have mostly been all wrong since day 1, so don't make the mistake of thinking I am taking his side when I say this: I have no idea what point you were trying to make.
Hmmm…. Never knew there was a right or wrong to one’s own personal risk assessments. Really not sure what the need or point was of making the first 1/2 of that post was if not to pass your judgment of my attitudes.
Stay classy, Sacramento.
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The "need or point" was fully explained in the second half of the post, so grow up and read before opening your mouth.
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That you have a better chance of dying in a car crash than you do from Coronavirus. That's what he meant by it.
Road related fatalities are between 30-50k a year (in the USA), whereas COVID killed 375k in 2020, and over 1 million since the pandemic started. So it's not a view backed by the numbers.
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The "need or point" was fully explained in the second half of the post, so grow up and read before opening your mouth.
What purpose did the first half of that comment serve? All it accomplished was pointing out you literally believe / think you're more "right" than me. I've got no problem having a difference of opinions or attitudes, but to call out mine as "wrong" is .... well, I don't know the right adjective. If you'd said something like "Chad and I see things quite differently when it comes to COVID, but on this comment, I too am not sure what the point is".. that'd be totally fine.
I'm really unclear about the need for the backhanded swing at me, while pointing out we're on opposite "sides" - Americans are all about their divisiveness, eh? IMO, there need not be "sides" when it comes to sickness, health. Different views and opinions and attitudes... fine. But "sides"??
And with your response, I guess the personal attack rule doesn't apply to you?
Still keepin it classy. :tup I guess I get to find out if the block function works on mods.
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That you have a better chance of dying in a car crash than you do from Coronavirus. That's what he meant by it.
Road related fatalities are between 30-50k a year (in the USA), whereas COVID killed 375k in 2020, and over 1 million since the pandemic started. So it's not a view backed by the numbers.
I agree with you. Just pointing out what he meant.
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Huh. Maybe I’m cynical but I assumed he meant trying to get the shot killed more people than Covid.
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Wife just got it for the second time after chaperoning our kids school trip on the east coast. So far just cold like symptoms, but we were planning on spending the weekend at a lake house with extended family which is why she tested herself as her cousin is a breast cancer survivor.
Too short of notice to cancel the reservation obviously, so we’re out a chunk of money, plus we bought a ton of food as well.
Funny enough, she got it 6 months ago and we had to cancel Christmas visits with everyone.
I hate Covid.
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Fuck, that blows Mark. Good to hear it's just like a cold, but sucks to miss the family trip/vaca.
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My wife has been very concerned and cautious about avoiding Covid as the family is going to HI on Sunday, with me joining them next Sunday. I'm not overly concerned about getting it while there, as we will be in a fairly isolated area and really only interacting with her family. But I have told her I have no intention of staying there if I get Covid while we are there.
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I received three packages all on the same day containing a total of (16) at home covid tests? I'm assuming this was the whole government provided stuff from ages ago but I have no idea. Never ordered these or anything.
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I received three packages all on the same day containing a total of (16) at home covid tests? I'm assuming this was the whole government provided stuff from ages ago but I have no idea. Never ordered these or anything.
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't those tests come with an expiration date?
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I received three packages all on the same day containing a total of (16) at home covid tests? I'm assuming this was the whole government provided stuff from ages ago but I have no idea. Never ordered these or anything.
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't those tests come with an expiration date?
I'll have to take a look....I'm sure you're right. It was just odd to get them all on one day.
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It finally happened, damn.
I wanted to live through all of this as a proud person who immediately took this seriously, but alas, I fell.
As of today, I'm positive to Covid... and I'm 99% sure I got it at the Alice Cooper concert wednesday. Last night I started to feel bad, and today I did the test.... I'm positive.
I have to say so far it's just a normal flu.... I'm not devastated, I "just" cough from time to time and I have a headache. I still feel the smells. I hope this is already the worst I'll ever be and shake it off soon, I mean, I had three vaccines, they must be useful for something right?
What can I say? we have to go on living at a certain point, but beware! never lower your guard down. Now I wish I had kept the mask at the concert, but it was no longer mandatory and nobody was wearing it and it was so hot.........
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Feel better soon, man, and take it easy. Sounds like your symptoms are similar to what mine were (awful flu, but mild overall by COVID standards), and hopefully they stay that way. :tup :tup
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I wanted to live through all of this as a proud person who immediately took this seriously, but alas, I fell.
I wouldn't take it so hard on yourself. Hope you feel better soon.
It seems this current wave isn't just dying off though. The numbers went down a bunch locally but about half way to low numbers it starting creeping back up and I've noticed some more people getting sick here who hadn't caught covid yet. But all cases I'm familiar with inside my circle of people I know, it's all been very flu like and nothing more serious. I see most people back in action in 5 days which is better than the 7 day sickness I had in January.
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I wanted to live through all of this as a proud person who immediately took this seriously, but alas, I fell.
I wouldn't take it so hard on yourself. Hope you feel better soon.
It seems this current wave isn't just dying off though. The numbers went down a bunch locally but about half way to low numbers it starting creeping back up and I've noticed some more people getting sick here who hadn't caught covid yet. But all cases I'm familiar with inside my circle of people I know, it's all been very flu like and nothing more serious. I see most people back in action in 5 days which is better than the 7 day sickness I had in January.
Yeah, I think we're in that transition phase from it being "oh fuck I got covid I'm gonna die" to it being a mere inconvenience.
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I wanted to live through all of this as a proud person who immediately took this seriously, but alas, I fell.
I wouldn't take it so hard on yourself. Hope you feel better soon.
It seems this current wave isn't just dying off though. The numbers went down a bunch locally but about half way to low numbers it starting creeping back up and I've noticed some more people getting sick here who hadn't caught covid yet. But all cases I'm familiar with inside my circle of people I know, it's all been very flu like and nothing more serious. I see most people back in action in 5 days which is better than the 7 day sickness I had in January.
Yeah, I think we're in that transition phase from it being "oh fuck I got covid I'm gonna die" to it being a mere inconvenience.
I think we're long past that, no?
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I would venture to guess that the vast majority of people have been over it for quite a long time but it's more the public perception of the severity of the virus that has quickly and quietly started to wane as of late. That being said it still perplexes me when I'm listening to new podcast episodes and the hosts make comments about still being overly cautious about going out and they continue to order Door Dash and the like because eating inside of a restaurant is a risk, stuff like that. Total end of 2020 vibes and I kind of feel bad for the people that are still like that.
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I feel bad for people who are immunocompromised or care for someone who is because they cannot afford to take the same kind of risks that others are able to.
A good friend of mine is under treatment for breast cancer. Exposure to Covid could be lethal at worst and delay her treatment at best.
It is always good to remember that many people have different ways to assess their own personal risks and make choices based on that. Judging them from our own frames of reference really isn't helpful or fair to them.
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I feel bad for people who are immunocompromised or care for someone who is because they cannot afford to take the same kind of risks that others are able to.
A good friend of mine is under treatment for breast cancer. Exposure to Covid could be lethal at worst and delay her treatment at best.
It is always good to remember that many people have different ways to assess their own personal risks and make choices based on that. Judging them from our own frames of reference really isn't helpful or fair to them.
This.
And frankly, this post could be applied to a myriad of issues.
Well-said, harmony.
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I feel bad for people who are immunocompromised or care for someone who is because they cannot afford to take the same kind of risks that others are able to.
A good friend of mine is under treatment for breast cancer. Exposure to Covid could be lethal at worst and delay her treatment at best.
It is always good to remember that many people have different ways to assess their own personal risks and make choices based on that. Judging them from our own frames of reference really isn't helpful or fair to them.
This.
And frankly, this post could be applied to a myriad of issues.
Well-said, harmony.
+1
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I feel bad for people who are immunocompromised or care for someone who is because they cannot afford to take the same kind of risks that others are able to.
A good friend of mine is under treatment for breast cancer. Exposure to Covid could be lethal at worst and delay her treatment at best.
It is always good to remember that many people have different ways to assess their own personal risks and make choices based on that. Judging them from our own frames of reference really isn't helpful or fair to them.
Obvious statement is obvious, and I hope this isn't directed at me, because I was wasn't making any judgements.
I mean, this, as WMunn says is applicable across most issues.
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Well, your comment did say “we’re” past this - potentially implying it’s all of society that is past taking precautions. When it isn’t, nor should it be..
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My statement was not directed at anyone. If it were, I would've quoted and spoken directly to that person. :chill
Look - we all struggle with this. It is human. I'm talking to myself as much as anyone else.
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Well, your comment did say “we’re” past this - potentially implying it’s all of society that is past taking precautions. When it isn’t, nor should it be..
"We" does imply society, but it doesn't imply "all" of society. Can't "we" be used generally, or must it "everyone" be included. "We" ought to be able to refer to the vast majority, no?
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Well, your comment did say “we’re” past this - potentially implying it’s all of society that is past taking precautions. When it isn’t, nor should it be..
"We" does imply society, but it doesn't imply "all" of society. Can't "we" be used generally, or must it "everyone" be included. "We" ought to be able to refer to the vast majority, no?
Fair enough. Personally, I think the more people who are "over it" and act closer to a pre-covid "normal" is what is extending this. I think gov'ts and businesses should've updated HVACs, and (more) people could (should) mask in crowded indoor settings. And for us here in Canada... make the fourth fucking shots available to the masses.
As an example, more and more hospitals around here are having to shut down their ER's (either temporarily, or not with a 24-hour availability) - a good chunk of them due to COVID outbreaks. The health and existential crisis may be mostly over, but there is still a crisis in society - just look at availability of products, and the shit-show of airports.
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I think Covid had an effect on why some of the issues at airports are happening, but do you think it has any current impacts? In other words, I feel that Covid contributed but is not currently contributing, if that makes any sense.
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I got my second booster shot a month ago.
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I think Covid had an effect on why some of the issues at airports are happening, but do you think it has any current impacts? In other words, I feel that Covid contributed but is not currently contributing, if that makes any sense.
For airports, the lingering aspect surely plays a part (ie, people that permanently left the 'air travel'* profession in 2020/2021). And it's still one of the many factors contributing to the overall shit-show. On top of higher demand, a persistent pilot shortage at regional carriers has led to flight reductions and cancellations. Weather, a deficit of airport workers and employees out sick with Covid have also snarled traffic (https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/july-4th-travelers-face-canceled-flights-crowded-airports-and-higher-fares/ar-AAZ58TM)
We can't undo the past, but we can take steps to improve current situations for better future outcomes (I say this as it applies to anything - not just COVID)
*pilots, attendants, ground crew, airport staff etc ...
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I would venture to guess that the vast majority of people have been over it for quite a long time but it's more the public perception of the severity of the virus that has quickly and quietly started to wane as of late. That being said it still perplexes me when I'm listening to new podcast episodes and the hosts make comments about still being overly cautious about going out and they continue to order Door Dash and the like because eating inside of a restaurant is a risk, stuff like that. Total end of 2020 vibes and I kind of feel bad for the people that are still like that.
There is only a small segment of the population for whom COVID maximalism was ever a possibility. And some of those people who theoretically are priviledged enough to isolate are just doubling down.
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I think Covid had an effect on why some of the issues at airports are happening, but do you think it has any current impacts? In other words, I feel that Covid contributed but is not currently contributing, if that makes any sense.
I read somewhere that even if you are triple vaccinated, the risk of getting long covid is at least in the single digit percentages, and could be as much as a third depending how you measure it. So given that transmission mitigation measures are basically null atm, means that people in higher risk of transmission jobs are going to see attrition, coupled with the fact that there is a shortage of staffing in general.
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Are forumers in Europe hearing about spikes in hospitalizations due to Omicron BA.5? I'm seeing some posts from doctors that are worrisome. Mostly that symptoms seem to mimic meningitis vs. a common cold. Here is a substack from a cardiologist with some sourced graphs. Variants are, of course, to be expected. Variants with neurological sequela that are highly contagious give me pause.
https://erictopol.substack.com/p/the-ba5-story
I just made my appointment for my 2nd booster as I am over 50 and to my knowledge have never had Covid. I had been planning to boost in the fall. I just changed my mind and will be getting it on Friday.
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https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-01730-y
Seems like BA.5 is likely to vary a lot depending on the country's infection history.
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Are forumers in Europe hearing about spikes in hospitalizations due to Omicron BA.5? I'm seeing some posts from doctors that are worrisome. Mostly that symptoms seem to mimic meningitis vs. a common cold. Here is a substack from a cardiologist with some sourced graphs. Variants are, of course, to be expected. Variants with neurological sequela that are highly contagious give me pause.
https://erictopol.substack.com/p/the-ba5-story
I just made my appointment for my 2nd booster as I am over 50 and to my knowledge have never had Covid. I had been planning to boost in the fall. I just changed my mind and will be getting it on Friday.
Not following all of Europe, but the situation in Italy (56 millions of habitants) is of 1.011.228 cases in total, with 7.648 hospitalizations.
It seems that it's hitting harder fragile and unvaccinated people. I'm still sick, with just the common flu symptoms - headache, fever that goes up and down, and coughing (had a horrible fit last night in the middle of the night that lasted 15 minutes if not more, I hope it will be a one time accident).
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Hope you feel better soon, MirrorMask.
Thanks for the info to you and XJD.
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In the UK we are definitely on an uptick of cases, with talk of a being on the brink of a 5th wave. But these new strains BA.4 and BA.5 while apparently super spreaders are milder strains so with the vaccines there shouldn't be any major disruptions. It's no longer headline news here, you actually have to search for Covid info at the minute.
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Spain is the same. There is a new wave due to these new variants. Many people at the office I work at have been getting it lately (and based on how my throat feels I suspect I may have it as well).
I think periodical vaccination and some care is the only way to go. Unfortunately this thing is not going to go away unless the whole world shuts down for a month or two, which is not going to happen.
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Welp, just tested positive. Luckily the view from the hotel in Germany I'm staying at has a wonderful view of the mountains.
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Welp, just tested positive. Luckily the view from the hotel in Germany I'm staying at has a wonderful view of the mountains.
Good luck and get well soon!
Thanks also to the previous forumers that wished me well. I might be already past the worst phase, I still feel my head heavy and some little coughs here and there, but no fever anymore, apparently, and the coughing fit that brutally woke me up in the middle of sunday night was a one time occourence. I'm still not well, but today is definitively the "less worse" day so far, just like yesterday was.
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Our turn has arrived.
Had 2 week vacation to Michigan planned. My Mom was due for a heart valve procedure so my daughter, son in law and Grandkids were going for support as well as a family reunion and a 1 year birthday party for my Grandson. I'm still in FL and was going to drive up tomorrow.
Received a call that my son in law has it as does my granddaughter. They are all staying with my Mom so now she is exposed also. I suspect my daughter is next. Ugghhh...stress! The heart valve is canceled now for Mom. Not sure she can survive covid. I feel helpless as I know how difficult things must be there now. I guess I stay in FL and pray. That's all I can do.
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Damn. That's a tough one.
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Sorry emtee, that's a tough situation
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Emtee, I am so sorry. Thinking nothing but positive thoughts for you and your mom.
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Praying that it's a mild strain that's hit your family and that your Mom isn't affected too bad by this
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Our turn has arrived.
Had 2 week vacation to Michigan planned. My Mom was due for a heart valve procedure so my daughter, son in law and Grandkids were going for support as well as a family reunion and a 1 year birthday party for my Grandson. I'm still in FL and was going to drive up tomorrow.
Received a call that my son in law has it as does my granddaughter. They are all staying with my Mom so now she is exposed also. I suspect my daughter is next. Ugghhh...stress! The heart valve is canceled now for Mom. Not sure she can survive covid. I feel helpless as I know how difficult things must be there now. I guess I stay in FL and pray. That's all I can do.
Sorry to hear that, sending positive thoughts your way. Hopefully the strain now is weakened for everyone to not cause very serious illness. I had a 2 week vacation recently and 1st week was great, then the 2nd week the entire family came down with COVID. Thankfully it was very similar to a cold but it sucked a further two weeks as we rotated one by one with the infection. All of us were vaxed apart from my 2 year old, who was down for just a day and a half with fever and then just had a runny nose later. We're all good now but it did suck a ton of our energy.
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Thanks for the kind words. It's been a rough 2.5 years for all of us.
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Emtee, thinking about you and hoping that things turn out as best they can for you and your family.
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Emptee, that all blows. As Stadler says, hoping things work out for the best.
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Joining along wishing things turn out for the best, emtee!!! :tup
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Our turn has arrived.
Had 2 week vacation to Michigan planned. My Mom was due for a heart valve procedure so my daughter, son in law and Grandkids were going for support as well as a family reunion and a 1 year birthday party for my Grandson. I'm still in FL and was going to drive up tomorrow.
Received a call that my son in law has it as does my granddaughter. They are all staying with my Mom so now she is exposed also. I suspect my daughter is next. Ugghhh...stress! The heart valve is canceled now for Mom. Not sure she can survive covid. I feel helpless as I know how difficult things must be there now. I guess I stay in FL and pray. That's all I can do.
That's fucked. I gotta say, as much as I trivialize things in here, it's situations like these I don't really take into account which is poor on my part at times I guess. A life saving operation cancelled because of this thing is textbook definition of evil. I hope it can somehow all work out for you and your family emtee.
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I'm negative, whoohooo!!!
I'm still not good 'cause the cough has kinda taken over, and this morning I was already resigned to the idea of being already positive, turns out I'm negative and I can go back to work!!!
All things considered, it's been "just" a flu. I had a bad weekend with fever, and lingering coughing fits (plus I had a headache until last thursday), but all in all in the grand scheme of things it's been just a mild annoyance. It's a pity not even the vaccine could protect me fully (had my last shot in January after all, and there are variants), but I'm sure that without a vaccine, this thing would have devastated me.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery to the other forumers involved!
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Crazy times.
Update: every person my son in law came in contact with got it. Mom, grandkids, daughter, both his parents. Also got a call from my Dad. He and my stepmother in NC both have it. I'm on vacation but the director called me today and begged me to come back because 4 of my colleagues are out with covid. I agreed to cut my vacation short to help out.
I guess the positive is that nobody has been hospitalized...just very sick for 4 or 5 days. Except the grandkids were only 3 days.
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emtee, is everything well with your family?
My 4 year old tested positive on Monday. Ironically she was scheduled for her first vaccine dose next Monday. The first day she had a very high fever and no energy. Tuesday her fever was up and down and she was still lethargic, and today (Wednesday) she seems her normal self. The rest of us are vaccinated and have been testing negative all week. The nurse said to try and keep her isolated, apparently not understanding 4 year olds are not totally self-sufficient.
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That's rough to hear, hope it gets better. Isolating a kid that age is extremely difficult, when my 4 year old niece got COVID last year, her parents and siblings all masked up in the house when near her and tried to have her stay in just one or two rooms. Hope your daughter gets healthy quickly, this strain seems very infectious though not as serious for the most part.
I too was wondering about you emtee. Hope everyone is doing ok.
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That's rough to hear, hope it gets better. Isolating a kid that age is extremely difficult, when my 4 year old niece got COVID last year, her parents and siblings all masked up in the house when near her and tried to have her stay in just one or two rooms.
We basically moved her in to our bedroom, thinking that if anyone gets Covid it's preferable Mom gets it since she is not working over the summer, and I moved in to her room. The first couple days she was content to lay in bed and watch movies and play on the tablet, but she is getting restless now that she feels fine and has her energy back. Our family is feeling a bit disconnected, not having meals together and such, but aside from the uncomfortably small bed I've kinda enjoyed having a room to myself for a change. :)
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Joe Biden has tested positive for covid.
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Joe Biden has tested positive for covid.
2-for-2 on POTUS.
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Joe Biden has tested positive for covid.
2-for-2 on POTUS.
Right? Covid don't give a fuck man.
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Anyone ready to get their under 5's vaxxed?
I was a bit apprehensive, but after meetings with both our son's doctors (endocrin and pediatrician), both are wholeheartedly recommending going through with it. So I think we'll be doing it sooner rather than later. Just gotta find a time that works with the schedule.
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Anyone ready to get their under 5's vaxxed?
I was a bit apprehensive, but after meetings with both our son's doctors (endocrin and pediatrician), both are wholeheartedly recommending going through with it. So I think we'll be doing it sooner rather than later. Just gotta find a time that works with the schedule.
I don't have an under 5, so kind of a moot point. But if I did, here's kind of where my thinking is: I have some concerns about a vaccine for a child in that early a stage in his/her development, and based on what the virus has been doing, who it is affecting, and how, I don't see an overwhelming need to vaccinate at that age. But I would absolutely consult with our pediatrician, get a second opinion, kick it around with my doctor friends, and do a lot of reading on my own after that to form a better-informed opinion before making a decision. It could be that any concerns I have, as well as my lack of virus-related concerns for that age group, are completely misplaced. And I would want to be better informed if I needed to make that decision for someone in my household.
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My 4 year old just got his second shot. He received his first shot on the first weekend that it was available, and his third shot will be in 5 months. The dosage for the age group is 1/10th of an adult dose, so it's a very small amount. He really had zero side effects, aside from a likely sore arm and being a little cranky several hours after the second shot.
I have no concerns about the child vaccine and our pediatrician's office has recommended the shot and/or hasn't stated a position where parents should be concerned about it. They have a very strict regular vaccine schedule and do not allow ANY parents to deviate from that schedule. They'd rather you not be their patient than screw around with your kids' regular vaccines. I've always appreciated that.
As for my kids, they are pretty active. We have them in summer camp, so they're around other kids on a daily basis. With cases on the rise, I'd rather have them get the shots than take any chances without them. School will start in a month as well, bringing all of the additional exposure to illnesses, including covid.
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I don't have an under 5, so kind of a moot point. But if I did, here's kind of where my thinking is: I have some concerns about a vaccine for a child in that early a stage in his/her development, and based on what the virus has been doing, who it is affecting, and how, I don't see an overwhelming need to vaccinate at that age. But I would absolutely consult with our pediatrician, get a second opinion, kick it around with my doctor friends, and do a lot of reading on my own after that to form a better-informed opinion before making a decision. It could be that any concerns I have, as well as my lack of virus-related concerns for that age group, are completely misplaced. And I would want to be better informed if I needed to make that decision for someone in my household.
I hear you - I was very apprehensive as well. My son's had Covid, and has done fine. That said, he is in one of the risk groups, so that factors into the equation for me.
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They have a very strict regular vaccine schedule and do not allow ANY parents to deviate from that schedule. They'd rather you not be their patient than screw around with your kids' regular vaccines.
That seems very odd to me, and something I wouldn't get on board with. And not from a vax standpoint, just in general. Fundamentally, I view medical care as being a team effort. It is the doctor's office's job to offer advice, make recommendations, and help me be informed about decisions that I make. It is not their job to simply present their schedule of treatment and basically say, "This is what we are going to do. If you aren't on board, there's the door." Kind of similar to an investment advisor. My team advises me and provides info, but doesn't unilaterally make investment decisions without my consent (barring an emergency), and if they did, I would no longer be working with them.
That office's philosophy seems odd to me. Not that they aren't entitled to do business how they see fit. More power to them if that is their model, and their customers are on board with it. But for me, no thank you.
@Skeever: Yeah, that makes total sense. That is absolutely a big part of the equation that should be factored in.
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They have a very strict regular vaccine schedule and do not allow ANY parents to deviate from that schedule. They'd rather you not be their patient than screw around with your kids' regular vaccines.
That seems very odd to me, and something I wouldn't get on board with. And not from a vax standpoint, just in general. Fundamentally, I view medical care as being a team effort. It is the doctor's office's job to offer advice, make recommendations, and help me be informed about decisions that I make. It is not their job to simply present their schedule of treatment and basically say, "This is what we are going to do. If you aren't on board, there's the door." Kind of similar to an investment advisor. My team advises me and provides info, but doesn't unilaterally make investment decisions without my consent (barring an emergency), and if they did, I would no longer be working with them.
That office's philosophy seems odd to me. Not that they aren't entitled to do business how they see fit. More power to them if that is their model, and their customers are on board with it. But for me, no thank you.
I can see both sides, TBH. And it really depends a lot upon the type of clinic in my experience. Private office docs/NPs can really run their practice how they want. With the only exception being that if they see Medicaid patients, there are some rules and stipulations about how they provide those services.
If the clinic is affiliated with a hospital system, then they typically are constrained by that system.
I know some physicians who - for various reasons - have a lot of special needs kids including those with compromised immune systems and severe medical risk factors. By allowing parents to space vaccines outside of recommended guidelines, that potentially puts their other clients at risk who come into contact with them in waiting rooms and the like. Families who have these special needs kids appreciate that their physicians and nurse practitioners set policies that keep their kids as safe as possible and follow the vaccine guidelines for all patients. They are busy enough that if a parent has a problem with their policy, they don't mind if they get their services elsewhere.
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^That makes total sense.
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If the clinic is affiliated with a hospital system, then they typically are constrained by that system.
Yes they are affiliated with a hospital system. The website states that they follow guidelines recommended by the American Pediatric Association and refers patients to their policy page. That link is broken right now so I can't delve into it further, but that's the gist of it. When expecting parents take a tour of the facility, that's one thing they stress - you're on board with the vaccine schedule, or you need to find another pediatrician.
That seems very odd to me, and something I wouldn't get on board with. And not from a vax standpoint, just in general. Fundamentally, I view medical care as being a team effort. It is the doctor's office's job to offer advice, make recommendations, and help me be informed about decisions that I make. It is not their job to simply present their schedule of treatment and basically say, "This is what we are going to do. If you aren't on board, there's the door." Kind of similar to an investment advisor. My team advises me and provides info, but doesn't unilaterally make investment decisions without my consent (barring an emergency), and if they did, I would no longer be working with them.
That office's philosophy seems odd to me. Not that they aren't entitled to do business how they see fit. More power to them if that is their model, and their customers are on board with it. But for me, no thank you.
Harmony may be correct in that they hospital affiliation forces them into a certain type of vaccine schedule. But from my perspective, over the last 15-20 years, parents have become more and more childhood vaccine skeptical, thanks to Jenny McCarthy and her going on TV, stating that vaccines gave her kids autism.
My sister in law has fallen into that set of beliefs, especially after her oldest son was diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder. She "researched" and is adamant that a certain combination of vaccines gave it to the kid. She shopped around until she found a pediatrician that would let HER create her own vaccine schedule for her second kid (who also has genetic issues). I agree with you that medical treatment should be a partnership between the patient/family and doctor, but at the same time, I have a great dislike of parents opting out of general vaccinations based on skepticism. My country bumpkin sister in law does not know more than an MD, nor should she be in charge of determining at what age her children should get these vaccines based on Doctor Google.
I really like how our doctor's office has said NO to parents who want to wrest control over standard childhood vaccines. If you don't want your kid to get their measles shot, then they don't want to treat your kid. It's a nice, clean policy that keeps doctors from having to spend time debating the benefit of childhood vaccinations with certain types of parents. And for the record, the office and doctors are fantastic when it comes to knowledge and treating our kids, and they are a VERY busy office. So eliminating the constant vaccine debates frees up the doctors time for everyone.
Back on topic though, this all goes back to the covid vaccine debates of the last year and a half - there is plenty of data due to the pool of sick individuals being so large. History shows that long-term side effects are generally shown within two months of a vaccine dose, and these vaccines have been studied for much longer than that before being given approval.
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I've never heard of a clinic refusing to provide care. Are there other instances/conditions where/when this happens?
Regarding the under 5s, our pediatrician and nephrologist (kidney doc) both said they had no problems with our 4 year old getting the vaccine. Like I said, she was scheduled for her first shot a week after she got Covid. On that note, she is back to normal, though her body is a little sore, likely from both the virus and not being active the last few days. Now my wife has is it, and is congested. My 11 year old and myself feel good and are testing negative. If she gets it and I don't, I am probably going to be banished to a hotel.
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Never mind. The Cool family is now 4-for-4. Mrs. is feeling much better, the 11 year old has a scratchy throat, the 4 year old is back to normal, and I feel fine.
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I've never heard of a clinic refusing to provide care. Are there other instances/conditions where/when this happens?
They're not refusing service to anyone. They're just saying that if you want them to be your doctors, you need to go along with their childhood vaccination schedule - they are happy to discuss it with families and talk about it, but they're not going to make changes to the vaccines given and the ages at which they are given.
Case in point - my sister in law found a pediatrician that would let HER (mom) choose what vaccines her kid gets, and which combinations of vaccines at a particular age of her child. Her (internet) research led her to believe that autism is caused by a certain combination of childhood vaccines provided at the same time and she wasn't going to let her second child be stricken by autism if she could prevent it by being the one to control at what age her child gets a needle in the arm.
My pediatrician's office won't let parents control that aspect of treatment - the changing of vaccines and mixing and matching when they are given. They have it set in stone for families, so when you schedule your child's X year checkup, they come in with a tray and 1-3 syringes lined up. I'm sure they deal with plenty of religious exemptions as well, but they don't want parents marching in and demanding control over the process because of what they read online or see on TV.
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I get all that, so I should have said they are putting conditions on service. Which I have not encountered before. But my experience with medical issues doesn't stray beyond the basics (other than my lkid's kidney) and I just go with whatever is recommended.
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Jingle.son just tested positive. Man, we all just got our 4th shots 1 week ago. No one else is testing positive (yet). Mrs.jingle and I have both been driving him to/from work for the past 5 days as well. So far, no symptoms for me, but I had it just 2.5 months ago. Mrs.jingle is operating Nader the assumption we already has it, it’s it symptomatic or positive yet.
Good times!
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Jingle.son just tested positive. Man, we all just got our 4th shots 1 week ago. No one else is testing positive (yet). Mrs.jingle and I have both been driving him to/from work for the past 5 days as well. So far, no symptoms for me, but I had it just 2.5 months ago. Mrs.jingle is operating Nader the assumption we already has it, it’s it symptomatic or positive yet.
Good times!
Any chance it's a false positive? Was he showing symptoms? Are you going to infect Nick's entire wedding party now?
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I don’t think false positives are a thing. And yeah, he’s got a lot of symptoms -sore throat, cough, aches, nausea …
Already sent Nick a PM. If I’m still symptom free and test negative on Friday, I’ll likely still go. If I’m positive, I’ll not be - not sure I can cross the border without lying, tbh.
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I don’t honk false positives are a thing. And yeah, he’s got a lot of symptoms -sore throat, cough, aches, nausea …
Already sent Nick a PM. If I’m still symptom free and test negative on Friday, I’ll likely still go. If I’m positive, I’ll not be - not sure I can cross the border without lying, tbh.
It would suck if you can't make the trip.
My wife's work tests regularly, and they have a bunch of false positives, but if your son is showing symptoms, then yeah, he's got it. I'm sorry the poor guy is going through it.
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Unless someone tests daily, and gets 1 positive test in the middle of 6 negative tests, I’d go on the assumption that “false positive” = asymptomatic.
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Right, yeah, that's just it. But the symptoms are the tell tale sign. Hopefully he gets through it without too much hassle.
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Jingle.son just tested positive. Man, we all just got our 4th shots 1 week ago. No one else is testing positive (yet). Mrs.jingle and I have both been driving him to/from work for the past 5 days as well. So far, no symptoms for me, but I had it just 2.5 months ago. Mrs.jingle is operating Nader the assumption we already has it, it’s it symptomatic or positive yet.
Good times!
That sucks mate, hopefully you stay in the clear.
Serious question, what makes you go and get another shot after you've already had COVID and quite badly plus already had three shots? Not trying to start anything, I'm genuinely curious.
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To add to minimizing the affects I'd guess. I also got my second booster months ago.
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Fair enough. Sounded like Chad was quite bad the first time so just makes me wonder the thinking behind it.
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I'd be more open to another booster if they have a new updated vaccine. I know that immunity wanes, but I'm not exactly sure what another dose of the same does at this point when I already recovered from an infection after the booster.
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@ Kade... For starters, it's the national health guidance. The effects of the vaccine and infection "immunity" have been proven to wane over time - reducing effectiveness against infection quite considerably after a number of months (generally, after 6ish months in both vaccine and infection anti-bodies). The original vaccines are only showing effectiveness of 20% (protection against infection). Our last shots were in December, so it'd been 7 months - imo, a booster seemed logical. "Immunity" from infection or vaccines doesn't last forever. For some viruses is does, not this though. Flu vaccines are annual, I personally think that COVID vaccines require a more frequent schedule.
More importantly, the current Omicron variants are 'jumping' vaccines and infection protection.
https://www.npr.org/2022/07/11/1110804098/omicron-ba5-variant-covid-reinfections
"Not only is it more infectious, but your prior immunity doesn't count for as much as it used to," he explains. "And that means that the old saw that, 'I just had COVID a month ago, and so I have COVID immunity superpowers, I'm not going to get it again' — that no longer holds."
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2022-07-reinfection-pandemic-months-illness-covid.html
Omicron variants, and BA.5 specifically, show several worrying features. They can evade immunity acquired through earlier infections and breakthrough infections in vaccinated people.
Supposedly, Moderna is close to having an Omicron-specific booster in development or in testing.
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Fair enough mate, that's all totally over my head. Its just my pig head that doesn't believe everything they read.
I spoken to a few customers at work that had adverse reactions to it. So I've always been skeptical, but I don't get shots for anything so each to their own and more fool me.
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Well, after weeks of diliberating, I opted to get my second booster Saturday night.
As an original recipient of the J&J, I've been eligable for the booster since March, but have been dragging my feet for a few reasons: lower numbers, mental exhausting with the topic, and the promise of an Omicron-specific booster on the horizon.
The numbers have obviously risen, and after talking to my mom (who works for the board of health in my state) and three different doctors, I realized that the time is now.
For those who are considering waiting for the Omicron-specific booster, all of my sources said the same thing: 'probably' October at the soonest. For me, that's just too long to wait, especially considering my personal health sitation and the fact that I work with the general public.
Surprisingly, I have still not tested positive. I've taken dozens of tests over the past three years, and have been convinced on multiple occasions that I had Covid, but I have yet to see that 'double line.'
Obviously, the tests are suspect, but I have probably taken 60, so you'd have to think any room for error has been nullified. Go figure.
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Fair enough mate, that's all totally over my head. Its just my pig head that doesn't believe everything they read.
I spoken to a few customers at work that had adverse reactions to it. So I've always been skeptical, but I don't get shots for anything so each to their own and more fool me.
I don't believe everything I read either - but when it's coming from multiple (most) credible news, medical and scientific sources, I tend to take notice and defer to the expertise and experience of physicians and researchers.
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Well, after weeks of diliberating, I opted to get my second booster Saturday night.
As an original recipient of the J&J, I've been eligable for the booster since March, but have been dragging my feet for a few reasons: lower numbers, mental exhausting with the topic, and the promise of an Omicron-specific booster on the horizon.
The numbers have obviously risen, and after talking to my mom (who works for the board of health in my state) and three different doctors, I realized that the time is now.
For those who are considering waiting for the Omicron-specific booster, all of my sources said the same thing: 'probably' October at the soonest. For me, that's just too long to wait, especially considering my personal health sitation and the fact that I work with the general public.
Surprisingly, I have still not tested positive. I've taken dozens of tests over the past three years, and have been convinced on multiple occasions that I had Covid, but I have yet to see that 'double line.'
Obviously, the tests are suspect, but I have probably taken 60, so you'd have to think any room for error has been nullified. Go figure.
Funny enough, I had this conversation just this weekend. And it's not like I've lived a hermit life. I've seen concerts, flew more times than I can count, etc. I'm still careful, but I'm living my life. COVID at this point is a real thing, but it's not a controlling thing.
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Well, after weeks of diliberating, I opted to get my second booster Saturday night.
As an original recipient of the J&J, I've been eligable for the booster since March, but have been dragging my feet for a few reasons: lower numbers, mental exhausting with the topic, and the promise of an Omicron-specific booster on the horizon.
The numbers have obviously risen, and after talking to my mom (who works for the board of health in my state) and three different doctors, I realized that the time is now.
For those who are considering waiting for the Omicron-specific booster, all of my sources said the same thing: 'probably' October at the soonest. For me, that's just too long to wait, especially considering my personal health sitation and the fact that I work with the general public.
Surprisingly, I have still not tested positive. I've taken dozens of tests over the past three years, and have been convinced on multiple occasions that I had Covid, but I have yet to see that 'double line.'
Obviously, the tests are suspect, but I have probably taken 60, so you'd have to think any room for error has been nullified. Go figure.
Funny enough, I had this conversation just this weekend. And it's not like I've lived a hermit life. I've seen concerts, flew more times than I can count, etc. I'm still careful, but I'm living my life. COVID at this point is a real thing, but it's not a controlling thing.
I've had the same conversation. 60% has got infected in the US (I think I read that somewhere)
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As for me, I guess I'm finally over it.
The weird thing is that I've almost been worse once I became negative, than when I was positive.
Being positive was just a flu, after all: three days of fever, normal coughing save a nightly rough fit, headache for six days.
Once I became negative, a persistent cough kicked in, and I had to do a nebulizer therapy for a week. I coughed way more, and suffered way more from it, as a negative.
I basically suffered 20 days for this Covid thing, all things considered I got it lucky 'cause it was just an annoyance, but it was a big annoyance. It wasn't three days of flu, it was 20 days of having always something, as relatively harmless it was the whole experience.
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That happens to me normally after getting sick. for 2 to 3 months I have nasal drip and I cough non stop.
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My boss just developed a sinus infection coming out of COVID. I'm relatively I would have developed something more (my flu-like cases always develop into a chest infection), but the Doc I saw (over the phone) prescribed puffers and anti-biotics for me to take 2 days into my bout of COVID. It certainly didn't hurt, and I'm certain it did help.
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I also had a lingering cough for a couple weeks after being negative. That and fatigue were rough at times, but it slowly went away and one day just kind of hit me that I realized all my covid symptoms had gone away because it was a slow process.
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My boss just developed a sinus infection coming out of COVID. I'm relatively I would have developed something more (my flu-like cases always develop into a chest infection), but the Doc I saw (over the phone) prescribed puffers and anti-biotics for me to take 2 days into my bout of COVID. It certainly didn't hurt, and I'm certain it did help.
Do you take some sort of probiotics when taking anti biotics?
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Nope.
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Fair enough.
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My boss just developed a sinus infection coming out of COVID. I'm relatively I would have developed something more (my flu-like cases always develop into a chest infection), but the Doc I saw (over the phone) prescribed puffers and anti-biotics for me to take 2 days into my bout of COVID. It certainly didn't hurt, and I'm certain it did help.
Do you take some sort of probiotics when taking anti biotics?
I got bitten by something last weekend and my entire right arm puffed up like Popeye, and the PA prescribed some heavy duty pro-biotics. She was a professional and said something like "you might want to take a pro-biotic; the antibiotics might disrupt the chemistry in your gut" or whatever. I think it was like day three or day four (or both) and there were a couple of moments that were best described as "crime scene".
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Just seems like doctors these days are quick to prescribe anti biotics left right and centre. Im basing that on nothing though. Can't our immune systems fight some things off itself sometimes?
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Just seems like doctors these days are quick to prescribe anti biotics left right and centre. Im basing that on nothing though. Can't our immune systems fight some things off itself sometimes?
Yes.
And I'm not one to jump at medication. I'm typically a firm believer in 'body, heal thyself' for most things. But when it can't, I'm all for medication - as a response, or pre-emptively.
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Well, not questioning you or your doctor, but why did your doc give you antibiotics when you had a known VIRAL infection?
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Antibiotics are for bacterial infections. You can't cure a cold or flu with antibiotics. Doctors should know that and stop pushing drugs for big pharma.
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Well, not questioning you or your doctor, but why did your doc give you antibiotics when you had a known VIRAL infection?
Because i told him that my history of respiratory issues is that they routinely migrate into my chest and lungs, and develop in to a chest infection / bronchitis. So he decided to be proactively pre-emptive about it. Plus, he'd seen post-COVID cases of other types of infection.
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Well, not questioning you or your doctor, but why did your doc give you antibiotics when you had a known VIRAL infection?
Because i told him that my history of respiratory issues is that they routinely migrate into my chest and lungs, and develop in to a chest infection / bronchitis. So he decided to be proactively pre-emptive about it. Plus, he'd seen post-COVID cases of other types of infection.
Yep - the doctor does the same for my wife.
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Well, not questioning you or your doctor, but why did your doc give you antibiotics when you had a known VIRAL infection?
Because i told him that my history of respiratory issues is that they routinely migrate into my chest and lungs, and develop in to a chest infection / bronchitis. So he decided to be proactively pre-emptive about it. Plus, he'd seen post-COVID cases of other types of infection.
This happens to me with head colds.
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Fair enough; that makes sense.
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Antibiotics are for bacterial infections. You can't cure a cold or flu with antibiotics. Doctors should know that and stop pushing drugs for big pharma.
OK, I'll be sure to follow random advice from the internet than that if my doctor.
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I can't remember the last time I took an anti-biotic
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Antibiotics are for bacterial infections. You can't cure a cold or flu with antibiotics. Doctors should know that and stop pushing drugs for big pharma.
You can catch more than one disease at a time. A weakened immune system and damaged lung tissue from COVID makes you more susceptible to secondary bacterial infections. A large number of covid deaths were from secondary bacterial pneumonia.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-92220-0
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Well, not questioning you or your doctor, but why did your doc give you antibiotics when you had a known VIRAL infection?
Yeah....this is kind of what I was alluding to.
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Antibiotics are for bacterial infections. You can't cure a cold or flu with antibiotics. Doctors should know that and stop pushing drugs for big pharma.
While the replies above certainly have their circumstances around it, yeah, this is what I meant, they pump them out too frequent too often.
Well, not questioning you or your doctor, but why did your doc give you antibiotics when you had a known VIRAL infection?
Because i told him that my history of respiratory issues is that they routinely migrate into my chest and lungs, and develop in to a chest infection / bronchitis. So he decided to be proactively pre-emptive about it. Plus, he'd seen post-COVID cases of other types of infection.
Fair enough, giving antibiotics to be proactive though seems odd but what the fuck would I know. I just feel the more drugs are pumped into people the more susceptible we get to things. I kinda believe the more we take the more the immune system weakens. Again, I have nothing to base that on, just myself really and my own history.
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Antibiotics are for bacterial infections. You can't cure a cold or flu with antibiotics. Doctors should know that and stop pushing drugs for big pharma.
OK, I'll be sure to follow random advice from the internet than that if my doctor.
No ones giving advice, just thoughts and opinions.
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Fair enough, giving antibiotics to be proactive though seems odd but what the fuck would I know. I just feel the more drugs are pumped into people the more susceptible we get to things. I kinda believe the more we take the more the immune system weakens. Again, I have nothing to base that on, just myself really and my own history.
Doctors have been encouraged for years not to prescribe antibiotics unless there is clearly a bacterial infection present as the more of them out there the less effective the antibiotics get as the bacteria become resistant. Less 'shock value' so to speak.
There may be some special cases where some judgement can be exercised but on the whole way too many antibiotics are prescribed.
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Fair enough, giving antibiotics to be proactive though seems odd but what the fuck would I know. I just feel the more drugs are pumped into people the more susceptible we get to things. I kinda believe the more we take the more the immune system weakens. Again, I have nothing to base that on, just myself really and my own history.
Doctors have been encouraged for years not to prescribe antibiotics unless there is clearly a bacterial infection present as the more of them out there the less effective the antibiotics get as the bacteria become resistant. Less 'shock value' so to speak.
There may be some special cases where some judgement can be exercised but on the whole way too many antibiotics are prescribed.
Generally speaking, I agree 100%. Given my specific situation and history, I had no issue taking the meds at the time.
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Fair enough, giving antibiotics to be proactive though seems odd but what the fuck would I know. I just feel the more drugs are pumped into people the more susceptible we get to things. I kinda believe the more we take the more the immune system weakens. Again, I have nothing to base that on, just myself really and my own history.
Doctors have been encouraged for years not to prescribe antibiotics unless there is clearly a bacterial infection present as the more of them out there the less effective the antibiotics get as the bacteria become resistant. Less 'shock value' so to speak.
There may be some special cases where some judgement can be exercised but on the whole way too many antibiotics are prescribed.
Cheers Brent, my thoughts too.
Fair enough, giving antibiotics to be proactive though seems odd but what the fuck would I know. I just feel the more drugs are pumped into people the more susceptible we get to things. I kinda believe the more we take the more the immune system weakens. Again, I have nothing to base that on, just myself really and my own history.
Doctors have been encouraged for years not to prescribe antibiotics unless there is clearly a bacterial infection present as the more of them out there the less effective the antibiotics get as the bacteria become resistant. Less 'shock value' so to speak.
There may be some special cases where some judgement can be exercised but on the whole way too many antibiotics are prescribed.
Generally speaking, I agree 100%. Given my specific situation and history, I had no issue taking the meds at the time.
Fair enough man.
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Fair enough, giving antibiotics to be proactive though seems odd but what the fuck would I know. I just feel the more drugs are pumped into people the more susceptible we get to things. I kinda believe the more we take the more the immune system weakens. Again, I have nothing to base that on, just myself really and my own history.
I don't know if it's a code to live by, but I think there's some underlying truth to that. I've had this conversation with my doctor (we're both sort of nerds in that way) and my therapist (who has no hard and fast rules, but generally stays away from recommending medication unless the benefits are clear). The prevalence of medications and the immediacy of social media has, in my opinion, promoted a kind of impatience that has not been a positive for our society. We've abdicated control to our dopamine receptors.
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Fair enough, giving antibiotics to be proactive though seems odd but what the fuck would I know. I just feel the more drugs are pumped into people the more susceptible we get to things. I kinda believe the more we take the more the immune system weakens. Again, I have nothing to base that on, just myself really and my own history.
I don't know if it's a code to live by, but I think there's some underlying truth to that. I've had this conversation with my doctor (we're both sort of nerds in that way) and my therapist (who has no hard and fast rules, but generally stays away from recommending medication unless the benefits are clear). The prevalence of medications and the immediacy of social media has, in my opinion, promoted a kind of impatience that has not been a positive for our society. We've abdicated control to our dopamine receptors.
Thank you, well said, 100% agree. I'm just a big advocate for natural immunity unless completely necessary. I think people these days (not meaning anyone here) are quick to get some drugs from their doctor when it's something quite mild that will take its own course in a couple of days. Doctors also seem to just write people scripts and get them in and get them out. Doctors I feel really should look more at the underlying causes to things instead of prescribing some pills to put it at bay.
Again, I'm ignorant when it comes to doctors, I don't have a GP and haven't been to a doctors clinic in over 10 years. I know that will change as I get older but so far so good.
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My wife has been beating the natural immunity drum, especially when it comes to masks for children.
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My wife has been beating the natural immunity drum, especially when it comes to masks for children.
She's against the masks for children? Yeah, I kind of get that. Do we want to impair their immune systems at a young age before its properly even developed? Seems like a recipe for disaster when they become adults.
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My wife has been beating the natural immunity drum, especially when it comes to masks for children.
She's against the masks for children? Yeah, I kind of get that. Do we want to impair their immune systems at a young age before its properly even developed? Seems like a recipe for disaster when they become adults.
Right, that's exactly it.
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Mask use doesn’t impair the immune system.
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Mask use doesn’t impair the immune system.
I think you're taking that too literally. It's just the whole wrapping them in cotton wool kind of concept from a young age, I think that's what MrsTAC is getting at.
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Mask use doesn’t impair the immune system.
I think you're taking that too literally. It's just the whole wrapping them in cotton wool kind of concept from a young age, I think that's what MrsTAC is getting at.
Hey, I’m not too far from your position. Before Covid, I hadn’t gotten any medication (minus oral surgery stuff since I’m a pussy when it comes to mouth pain) and I still don’t take meds other than the vaccines for Covid/flu. I’m a big supporter of building up natural immunity. That said, while I agree that kids need to build it up and be exposed to stuff, the mask won’t have an impact on that. So while it’s literal, best I can read, that is how Mrs. Tac was meaning it. Though he can correct me if I’m wrong.
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I’m a big supporter of building up natural immunity. That said, while I agree that kids need to build it up and be exposed to stuff, the mask won’t have an impact on that. So while it’s literal, best I can read, that is how Mrs. Tac was meaning it. Though he can correct me if I’m wrong.
Generally speaking, aren't the masks designed to keep germs out (or in)? If they have no impact on exposing kids to stuff, why do the kids have to wear them?
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I’m a big supporter of building up natural immunity. That said, while I agree that kids need to build it up and be exposed to stuff, the mask won’t have an impact on that. So while it’s literal, best I can read, that is how Mrs. Tac was meaning it. Though he can correct me if I’m wrong.
Generally speaking, aren't the masks designed to keep germs out (or in)? If they have no impact on exposing kids to stuff, why do the kids have to wear them?
Depends on the type of mask and the size of the droplets/particles we want to keep in or out.
Are schools talking about mask mandates? (I genuinely have no idea.) I'm torn on the masks for kids subject. The age of the kid factors in. As does the potential the kid has an underlying medical condition OR a parent/family member at home with an underlying medical condition. Seems like the middle school and high schooler can decide if they want to wear one.
I think masking younger kids is useless. They are going to spread their germs and masks won't stop that much. I think focusing on hand washing and keeping kids home when they have symptoms would be a better bang for our buck (as far as lowering transmission of diseases).
I don't think masks will get in the way of a healthy immune system development. Immediately after birth a healthy infant begins building their immune systems. Want a healthy immune system in kids? Let them play on the dirty carpet, get a dog, take them to some preschool playdates and family get-togethers. That'll be more than sufficient.
Frankly, monkeypox in the school setting is more worrisome to me by the day. I guess we'll see what happens come fall. :P
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Masks have a minor effect in protecting you from getting it, but have a much larger impact in keeping you from easily spreading it if you DO have it. In that respect, if your aim is to limit the spread of the disease, most people should probably be wearing them in situations where social distancing is not possible and the air quality/ventilation and is bad (i.e. places where the virus is likely to stick around (including kids).
Also, for all this talk of natural immunity, there is at least one study that showed outcomes are actually worse if you are infected a second time, so lets not be too keen to subject our kids to a good ol' pox party.
https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-1749502/v1/499445df-ebaf-4ab3-b30f-3028dff81fca.pdf?c=1655499468
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Also, for all this talk of natural immunity, there is at least one study that showed outcomes are actually worse if you are infected a second time, so lets not be too keen to subject our kids to a good ol' pox party.
https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-1749502/v1/499445df-ebaf-4ab3-b30f-3028dff81fca.pdf?c=1655499468
Well, no one is saying they are keen to get their kids sick. I sure as heck didn't.
And this study, glancing quickly, was a study on vets. I thought we were talking about kids. Did I miss the disclosed ages of the participants?
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At quick glance.
Sees its 17 pages.
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At quick glance.
Sees its 17 pages.
Lots of big words too.
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Any pictures?
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I rest my case.
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Any pictures?
Actually not in this case!
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Masks have a minor effect in protecting you from getting it, but have a much larger impact in keeping you from easily spreading it if you DO have it. In that respect, if your aim is to limit the spread of the disease, most people should probably be wearing them in situations where social distancing is not possible and the air quality/ventilation and is bad (i.e. places where the virus is likely to stick around (including kids).
Also, for all this talk of natural immunity, there is at least one study that showed outcomes are actually worse if you are infected a second time, so lets not be too keen to subject our kids to a good ol' pox party.
https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-1749502/v1/499445df-ebaf-4ab3-b30f-3028dff81fca.pdf?c=1655499468
I hope this is sarcasm.
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What would lead you to that conclusion?
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What would lead you to that conclusion?
Because no one gave the impression they were 'keen' to expose their children to viruses and diseases.
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Well, my brother got covid. So today I'm doing the old man's laundry and food shopping. Don't want him near the old man.
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Well, my brother got covid. So today I'm doing the old man's laundry and food shopping. Don't want him near the old man.
Shit man, that blows. Definitely keep him away from Papashmegland.
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Yup. He's in the spare bedroom in his house. I washed the kitchen floor and bathroom floor. A load of laundry. Now food shopping. Tomorrow I'm working so I can get out early Monday to take my old man to get a scan.
Vacation is 10 days away.
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3 weeks for me.
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I forgot Brian just had his wisdom teeth removed. He's miserable.
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Well, my brother got covid. So today I'm doing the old man's laundry and food shopping. Don't want him near the old man.
Good man. Hope no one else gets sick and your brother's symptoms are minimal. :tup :tup
And if you are doing laundry all week, I will send you minw to do. :biggrin: :biggrin:
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I'm dead. Lol. Just got home. Man, it's so damn hot and muggy.
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No shit (the heat). Spent most of the morning working around the yard, and after dinner. I sweated as much after the sun went behind the house as I did when I was right in it. Very humid.
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I saw an article on yahoo just now (https://www.yahoo.com/news/still-order-free-home-covid-141814265.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/still-order-free-home-covid-141814265.html)) stating that the free government provided covid tests will stop on September 2nd (this Friday). You can go here https://special.usps.com/testkits (https://special.usps.com/testkits) and get them if you haven't yet. I haven't so might as well get the 8 free tests now in case the fall brings something new. Or just in case, like I had a bad cough a couple weeks ago and made sure to test myself before coming to work.
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The pandemic might be over, but Covid sure as fuck ain't. Tested positive and it's going to wipe out what was to be an epic vacation beginning Saturday. >:(
At this point I honestly don't feel all that bad. I'm feverish as hell, but my blood o2 feels alright, and the sinus thing is pretty pedestrian. We'll see how it goes, I guess.
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I got my second booster (4th shot total) last night. The last time I had a covid shot was November 2021 for the first booster dose - I could have gotten one sooner, but my wife and I were waiting for the "official" advice for general adults to get them. Arm is sore and I got hit with a wave of exhaustion about 5 hours afterwards. No other real side effects, not that I was expecting anything crazy. It has the Omicron-specific additive, which is nice - I just don't have time in my life to test positive and have to cancel the things we have going on.
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The pandemic might be over, but Covid sure as fuck ain't. Tested positive and it's going to wipe out what was to be an epic vacation beginning Saturday. >:(
At this point I honestly don't feel all that bad. I'm feverish as hell, but my blood o2 feels alright, and the sinus thing is pretty pedestrian. We'll see how it goes, I guess.
OH NO! This is your Rammstein trip? I feel so bad for you, sincerely. Any possibility? Testing out?
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The pandemic might be over, but Covid sure as fuck ain't. Tested positive and it's going to wipe out what was to be an epic vacation beginning Saturday. >:(
At this point I honestly don't feel all that bad. I'm feverish as hell, but my blood o2 feels alright, and the sinus thing is pretty pedestrian. We'll see how it goes, I guess.
Aw man.....sorry to hear that EB. Hope it stays mild and you power through it quickly.
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El Barto, that sucks. I'm so sorry.
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Sorry to hear EB. The timing sucks. Anytime but vacation.
Hope it's mild and short in duration.
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Oof that is terrible timing, get well soon though and maybe you can catch up to the end of your plans if you feel well enough?
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The pandemic might be over, but Covid sure as fuck ain't. Tested positive and it's going to wipe out what was to be an epic vacation beginning Saturday. >:(
At this point I honestly don't feel all that bad. I'm feverish as hell, but my blood o2 feels alright, and the sinus thing is pretty pedestrian. We'll see how it goes, I guess.
Very unfortunate. Be well.
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That blows Bart. Were you travelling internationally?
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The pandemic might be over, but Covid sure as fuck ain't. Tested positive and it's going to wipe out what was to be an epic vacation beginning Saturday. >:(
At this point I honestly don't feel all that bad. I'm feverish as hell, but my blood o2 feels alright, and the sinus thing is pretty pedestrian. We'll see how it goes, I guess.
Fucking lame dude...did you already buy your PT ticket?
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Thanks, guys. The first half of my trip was mostly unpaid for. I'll lose $50 on the rental car, but my airline points will be refunded. Hadn't booked any rooms yet. I've purchased PT tickets for 3 shows, and I'm hopeful to make one or two of them. SF is almost certainly out, but I'll flip that one for more than I paid for it. Almost certainly enough to cover the loss on the car. In reality I've got a week-ten days to get well enough to travel, and I'm keeping optimistic.
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Here's hoping it's a mild bout.
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I got COVID halfway during a 2 week vacation which blew as I couldn't do the rest of the things I had planned but thankfully it was a mild cold like infection. Sucks El Barto, been there and hope you feel better soon. Ironically I think I got mine from a Coldplay concert during the first half of my vacation.
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Sorry to hear it, EB.
Here's hoping it's a mild bout.
Same!
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I got COVID halfway during a 2 week vacation which blew as I couldn't do the rest of the things I had planned but thankfully it was a mild cold like infection. Sucks El Barto, been there and hope you feel better soon. Ironically I think I got mine from a Coldplay concert during the first half of my vacation.
Almost certainly caught mine at Rammstein, San Anotnio. In hindsight I suppose it's a good thing I didn't get to meet up with Progmetty after the show.
With no frame of reference I'm not sure how mild mine is, but I'm not currently on a respirator, so I couldn't consider it severe. I'm feverish as all fuck, with a headache to go along with the basic aches and chills. I'm the sort that likes to let symptoms run their course rather than knocking them down with meds, so I'm tolerating the fever during the day. Research suggests fever does help to fight it off. A mild bout of nausea last night, and a sore throat today, likely related. Otherwise I don't feel any worse.
Interestingly, the kidney docs aren't recommending Remdesivir or Paxlovid. That surprised me. The told me to stop taking one of the immunosuppressants for a week, so presumably they've decided that the possible side effects of those are worse than the increased risk of rejection. Go figure. Needless to say, the first day I feel better I'll be back on the Myfortic. Just because one carries more risk doesn't mean I want to lean on the less risky avenue too hard.
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Six days after I became symptomatic I'm closing in on symptom free. Temp is pretty close to normal at 97.7. Throat's still sore, and the typical nagging cough you have after a cold, but otherwise I feel alright. At the same time the antigen test still turned insta-red, so I'm presumably still sporting a huge load of bugs. I was very fortunate that the massive fatigue was never an issue, but at the same time sitting around the house for a week hasn't exactly filled me with vim.
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Glad to hear the update. Assuming you binged some other films/genres based on your post in Movies/TV?
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Headaches (sinus pressure) at all El Barto?
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Glad to hear the update. Assuming you binged some other films/genres based on your post in Movies/TV?
Watched the first two MiB movies, but mostly stuck with Star Trek. Some DS9 episodes in honour of Louise Fletcher, but mostly more silly fair.
Headaches (sinus pressure) at all El Barto?
Cold symptoms were honestly quite mild. Did have a headache early on, but unrelated to sinus pressure. Had a bit of sinus pressure a couple of days in, but again it was very mild. Only real issue I had is the nagging cough and accompanying scratchy throat.
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That's good new sir.
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Strangely, my sense of smell took a big hit last night. It's not gone, but it's not particularly strong right now, either. Other than that I'm symptom free, though still testing very positive. Seems odd that it'd go away after I seem to have fought the whole thing off. I can smell alcohol, vinegar, coffee, etc., but I really have to get right up on it. Thankfully, I've still got enough to maintain my sense of taste. I was certainly able to enjoy my coffee this morning.
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Glad to hear the update. Assuming you binged some other films/genres based on your post in Movies/TV?
Watched the first two MiB movies, but mostly stuck with Star Trek. Some DS9 episodes in honour of Louise Fletcher, but mostly more silly fair.
Headaches (sinus pressure) at all El Barto?
Cold symptoms were honestly quite mild. Did have a headache early on, but unrelated to sinus pressure. Had a bit of sinus pressure a couple of days in, but again it was very mild. Only real issue I had is the nagging cough and accompanying scratchy throat.
Big fan of Louise Fletcher. And you being largely symptom free. ,)
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Spent a good chunk of last week with fever, sore throat and body aches, then the rest of the week with congestion. Tested positive on Monday (Symptoms started last Saturday) but by Friday I was negative with lingering symptoms until yesterday.
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I have two flights in Europe today. People voluntarily masking up is less than 10% I'd wager.
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I have two flights in Europe today. People voluntarily masking up is less than 10% I'd wager.
I'd put it closer to 5% from when I flew from EWR to AMS last week. Honestly not surprising. It's slowly been going down the last year the amount of people masked up.
Spent a good chunk of last week with fever, sore throat and body aches, then the rest of the week with congestion. Tested positive on Monday (Symptoms started last Saturday) but by Friday I was negative with lingering symptoms until yesterday.
Glad you recovered fairly quickly. I'm also glad I didn't catch it from you. :yarr
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Spent a good chunk of last week with fever, sore throat and body aches, then the rest of the week with congestion. Tested positive on Monday (Symptoms started last Saturday) but by Friday I was negative with lingering symptoms until yesterday.
Sorry to hear that you had to go through that, but grateful it doesn't seem to be that big a burden. :tup
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I just flew to Florida and back - four legs - and I could count the maskers on two hands more or less.
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I have two flights in Europe today. People voluntarily masking up is less than 10% I'd wager.
I'd put it closer to 5% from when I flew from EWR to AMS last week. Honestly not surprising. It's slowly been going down the last year the amount of people masked up.
Seems a little mad to me given how much of a petri dish planes can be given their notoriously bad air quality. Interestingly enough, in Italy you should still mask up on public transport, except a plane....
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I have two flights in Europe today. People voluntarily masking up is less than 10% I'd wager.
I'd put it closer to 5% from when I flew from EWR to AMS last week. Honestly not surprising. It's slowly been going down the last year the amount of people masked up.
Seems a little mad to me given how much of a petri dish planes can be given their notoriously bad air quality. Interestingly enough, in Italy you should still mask up on public transport, except a plane....
But studies have shown that the airflow in planes (top to bottom) along with filtration is likely a reason why people don't typically get covid from flying. But the airport itself is more likely to be a spot to get covid if you are stuck in a busy terminal than the plane it seems.
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Since Covid started I've been my kid's school a couple times after hours since my wife works there, and once for an evening band concert. But otherwise haven't set foot inside the place since spring 2020. Tonight was Back to School night. My kid is in 6th grade and wife has taught there since before we met, so it's been a big part of our lives such that this night didn't hold any special significance, but at some point I stopped, looked around at all the kids and their families, and felt such happiness seeing all the smiles, kids with their friends, and just the joy of people being together. Without getting political, it is crazy to think we lost this for the better part of 2 years.
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I have two flights in Europe today. People voluntarily masking up is less than 10% I'd wager.
I'd put it closer to 5% from when I flew from EWR to AMS last week. Honestly not surprising. It's slowly been going down the last year the amount of people masked up.
Seems a little mad to me given how much of a petri dish planes can be given their notoriously bad air quality. Interestingly enough, in Italy you should still mask up on public transport, except a plane....
But studies have shown that the airflow in planes (top to bottom) along with filtration is likely a reason why people don't typically get covid from flying. But the airport itself is more likely to be a spot to get covid if you are stuck in a busy terminal than the plane it seems.
Or if you are on the plane for a while on the tarmac with the air systems off.
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Thinking back, I did have a REALLY bad case of flu back in Feb 2020 (like the worst I've ever had) but I'm pretty certain it wasn't spreading in Germany at that time.
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The lingering aspect of Covid really sucks ass. I've felt generally alright for over a week now, but I'm still not particularly healthy. Wound up scrubbing the Mexico Rammstein gig (and last night's looked great) because I didn't feel like I'd be able to spend ~7 hours on my feet. Had a nice evening in LA Friday night, but still felt kind of crappy that afternoon. In the meantime I'm still dealing with occasional cold-like symptoms that come and go. Considering how lucky I got with this whole thing, I can't complain, but even my lightweight version of it has still been a real drag. Can't imagine what it's like for the people who get waylaid by the thing.
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Decided to hit a new aa meeting last night in a different town, get some new flavor to my recovery, and managed to find the one meeting of the more than a thousand in the greater SF Bay Area that still required masks. f
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The lingering aspect of Covid really sucks ass. I've felt generally alright for over a week now, but I'm still not particularly healthy. Wound up scrubbing the Mexico Rammstein gig (and last night's looked great) because I didn't feel like I'd be able to spend ~7 hours on my feet. Had a nice evening in LA Friday night, but still felt kind of crappy that afternoon. In the meantime I'm still dealing with occasional cold-like symptoms that come and go. Considering how lucky I got with this whole thing, I can't complain, but even my lightweight version of it has still been a real drag. Can't imagine what it's like for the people who get waylaid by the thing.
I hear too many stories of this not going completely away like a cold does. I feel like I can endure anything for a finite period; I think that indefinite "tail" would be a very hard thing to accept.
I'm sorry you missed your show; I know how much you were looking forward to it.
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Colds always seem to have lingering affects for me. A lingering cough from nasal drip for example.
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Well f*** me. Joined the club El Barto. Tested positive For covid today. Now I can't go to Progstock.
101.2 temp.
Aches and pain.
Coughing.
Nasal pressure and drip.
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Damn. Feel better folks.
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Jeesh Joe. I hope you feel better. Have you ruled out going completely even if you feel up to it?
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Jeesh Joe. I hope you feel better. Have you ruled out going completely even if you feel up to it?
He won't. It's kind of surprising how long it'll bug you. My actual covid symptoms have been gone for nearly 10 days. It's just a general funk that stuck around long enough to hamper my plans.
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I wish but no
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Dang, that sucks to hear, fellas. :( :(
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Well f*** me. Joined the club El Barto. Tested positive For covid today. Now I can't go to Progstock.
101.2 temp.
Aches and pain.
Coughing.
Nasal pressure and drip.
That sucks, some shit timing on top of it all. Get well soon.
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Well f*** me. Joined the club El Barto. Tested positive For covid today. Now I can't go to Progstock.
101.2 temp.
Aches and pain.
Coughing.
Nasal pressure and drip.
Feel better Joe, it seems the fall wave is here :(
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No fever this morning. No sinus pressure. Wife going to get my prescription for Paxovid. Doctor says my vaccine and booster are helping limit the big issues.
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FYI, Paxlovid will give you a bad taste in the back of your mouth about 1-2 hours after you take them. I was taking cough drop to minimize the taste so I would recommend having something of the sort to help.
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Thanks. I'll drink a lot of Gatorade. No candies or mints ect in my house.
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Doctor says my vaccine and booster are helping limit the big issues.
Obvious statement is obvious.
Glad it's settling down for you bro.
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Well, the wife and godson has it. Now we can all hang indoors. Lol
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Well, the wife and godson has it. Now we can all hang indoors. Lol
I wish you guys well; I hope you get back to normal as quick as possible.
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On the plus side I've lost 7 pounds since catching the virus. Lol
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When I got covid back in February I lost near 10 pounds, it just killed my appetite. That was my longest lasting symptom.
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I found this article to be surprising/alarming. Ever heard of medium Covid?
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/10/covid-symptoms-medium-term-post-infection-complications/671684/
This part in particular:
When scientists analyzed Sweden’s national health registry, for example, they found that the chance of developing pulmonary embolism—an often deadly clot in the lungs—was a startling 32 times higher in the first month after testing positive for the virus; after that, it quickly diminished. The clots were only two times more common at 60 days after infection, and the effect was indistinguishable from baseline after three to four months. A post-infection risk of heart attack and stroke was also evident, and declined just as expeditiously. In July, U.K. epidemiologists corroborated the Swedish findings, showing that a heightened rate of cardiovascular disease among COVID patients could be detected up to 12 weeks after they got sick. Then the hazard went away.
I'm not trying to be an alarmist but if you or someone you love has recently had Covid, please be vigilant about any lingering symptoms and when in doubt - don't delay contacting your doctor.
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So is that the same as Mild Covid?
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Did you read the article?
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When I got covid back in February I lost near 10 pounds, it just killed my appetite. That was my longest lasting symptom.
oh man, that is crazy. When I had it, it was the exact opposite. I have ravenous hunger. It felt like I was completely exhausted and I could not stop eating, like as if to rebuild strength.
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Well, it’s my turn. Caught it while on vacation at Universal in Orlando. Woke up feeling off Friday morning, by the afternoon was in full blown aches, chills, and started vomit by evening. Thankfully our flight home wasn’t until Saturday night. Took a test when we got home and it it turned positive within a minute.
I’m sure being trapped in an underground cavern for an hour because Hagrids Motorbike ride broke down or being in multiple 2 hour wait lines to see Halloween Horror Night scare houses had little to do with. ;)
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Bivalent'd up this week. Side effects were not bad at all, just a bit tired.
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Bivalent'd up this week. Side effects were not bad at all, just a bit tired.
Same. Got mine on Friday. Outside of a really sore shoulder and a headache, it was all good.
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Got mine this morning, no aftereffects so far, but I didn't have any with my previous 4 shots.
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Well, it’s my turn. Caught it while on vacation at Universal in Orlando. Woke up feeling off Friday morning, by the afternoon was in full blown aches, chills, and started vomit by evening. Thankfully our flight home wasn’t until Saturday night. Took a test when we got home and it it turned positive within a minute.
I’m sure being trapped in an underground cavern for an hour because Hagrids Motorbike ride broke down or being in multiple 2 hour wait lines to see Halloween Horror Night scare houses had little to do with. ;)
Suck, hope it's a quick one. Feel better.
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jingle.family got ours a few weeks back - with me being out more often, and jingle.daughter starting her school placements, and it being 'indoor' season, better to be proactive on this measure, imo.
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I had the second booster back in may of this year then I did get covid in early july so I have to wait a bit until I can get the new bivalent shot but I’ll likely get it as well just to be on the safe side.
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I have stopped masking everywhere except one place - the light rail that I take to work, especially in these flu season months. My son got a bad flu that required oral steroids to overcome a few weeks ago, and I've had a linger cough/congestion for several weeks now. I think I picked it up on the train, and so this week I reinstituted a practice that was common from when I lived in Asia - people, especially those who are getting sick or getting over something, masking up in dense, crowded spaces.
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Well…now it happened to me.
So we flew into Orlando last Friday with the plan of spending 1 week visiting my son, his wife, and my new baby granddaughter…and then a second week with just the wife and me at Disney World and Universal, returning home on Saturday the 12.
During our visit on Sunday, my throat felt a little bit scratchy, and Monday morning I woke up feeling like death. I hadn’t lost any sense of taste, but I had what felt like a really bad head cold (sinus congestion draining into lungs making for a bad cough). I thought it was just a head cold, but I wanted to err on the side of caution for the baby, so I picked up a home test kit and did two tests to be sure. Both came back positive.
At first we feared the worst. That our ENTIRE trip was canceled, and we would have to just sequester in our hotel room for the entire two weeks and then go home. But we called the front desk, and they only ask that we stay in our rooms for 5 days. That really surprised me…but it surprised me even more when I called Costco travel and they said that all the Covid disclaimers at both theme parks had been removed from their websites, and all Covid restrictions had been lifted!!
I’m still not entirely certain how this is going to pan out. My symptoms were actually pretty mild (the actual head cold I got last March was worse) and as of today (Wednesday) I’m already about 75% back to normal. Mrs. Dude tested negative on Monday, but after being forced to be sequestered with me, she started showing mild symptoms and just tested positive today. But basically, we’ve been told that as long as we are symptom free by next Monday, we can proceed at our own discretion.
What do you guys think? If you were symptom free but possibly still a carrier, would you proceed with your 8K trip? Or start asking for refunds?
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Personally, as long as I felt up to it, I go on with the vacation. You literally flew cross country to spend a week in a hotel and then fly back home?
Maybe you could skip the theme parks and see your family the second week. That would have to be up to them and you might not be able to "hold" the baby.
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The general thought is that after 5 days, you are not very contagious anymore. You can always wear a mask and/or social distance when you're around people, especially family.
When we had newborn babies, we always asked family to wash their hands before holding them. I think I'd be fine if a family member wanted to hold our baby and was honest by saying "hey, I just got over covid, but I'll wash my hands, wear a mask while holding her and keep my face away from theirs."
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If you are symptom free, I'd say mask up (mostly because its so soon and you will be around people, so be nice to them) and try to enjoy yourself. It seems a lot of people are getting over it fairly quickly these days.
My brother just tested positive. He thinks he had it back right before I did, his fiance tested positive and he was sick but his tests never came up positive. Now it just did and his fiance is negative this time. There's so many situations I've heard of like this. Either way, he actually says he felt worse back then than now.
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I’m on day 5 after contracting it in Orlando (must be a cesspool there).
First 24 was easily the worst, but after feeling 50% better the second day it’s been a slow climb to feeling normal. Still congested, still coughing, still tired. There are moments I feel “spaced out” so to say, I get angry for no reason, walking the dog wears me out. I’m not feeling myself at all.
I’m allowed to go back to work Friday so that’ll be interesting. I work at a sporting goods store that is severely understaffed and currently over stocked with product. My fuse was already short at work so I hope my head is clear enough to not have any extra drama to deal with.
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I managed to get this shot on Saturday before I got sick.
That’s me with my son and 5 month old granddaughter.
(https://i.imgur.com/zk8usLx.jpeg)
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Holy shit... You're Cram3x's dad :omg:
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:rollin :rollin
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Holy shit... You're Cram3x's dad :omg:
I take it my son looks like him?
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Holy shit... You're Cram3x's dad :omg:
I thought the exact same thing!
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Someone wanna post a pic of Marc... I'm mobile
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Jamx3 style!!!
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Holy shit... You're Cram3x's dad :omg:
I take it my son looks like him?
Were you aware that your son is a well known DTF poster?
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:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin i can see it
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:rollin :rollin
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I managed to get this shot on Saturday before I got sick.
That’s me with my son and 5 month old granddaughter.
(https://i.imgur.com/zk8usLx.jpeg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FcOndOZXkAMwjdq?format=jpg&name=large)
I'm kinda thinking Jammindude and Stadler were separated at birth. :lol
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I'm kinda thinking Jammindude and Stadler were separated at birth. :lol
I've often referred to Ben as Stadler West just based on non sensical musical opinions.
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Oh geeze, I can see that too :rollin :rollin :rollin
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OMG IS THAT BILL???
This is honestly the first time I’ve ever seen a picture of him. It’s like a fluffy Jammin!!
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I knew this forum attracted a certain type, but I didn't know it attracted a certain phenotype!
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Good lord that's frightening
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I knew this forum attracted a certain type, but I didn't know it attracted a certain phenotype!
Yes….I had to Google this.
Are you saying we look alike because we both like dream theater or because we both hang out here? I’m confused. :rollin
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I knew this forum attracted a certain type, but I didn't know it attracted a certain phenotype!
Yes….I had to Google this.
Are you saying we look alike because we both like dream theater or because we both hang out here? I’m confused. :rollin
Haha wasn't that deep. Just a silly way of pointing out the similarities.
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And I still haven’t seen a picture of this guy who is supposedly my son’s doppelgänger.
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And I still haven’t seen a picture of this guy who is supposedly my son’s doppelgänger.
It's the dude in the picture with Bill. As far as I know.
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And I still haven’t seen a picture of this guy who is supposedly my son’s doppelgänger.
That's me next to Stadler. Maybe not the best picture to see the similarities, but it's there. Specifically the eyes, forehead, and hair.
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IDK…
Maybe I’m biased because I changed his diaper, but I’m not seeing it. :rollin
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Definitely not the best picture. But there is definitely a resemblance.
The only difference between Jammin and Stadler, is that Stadler's parents had dental insurance 40 years ago! :lol :lol
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Definitely not the best picture. But there is definitely a resemblance.
The only difference between Jammin and Stadler, is that Stadler's parents had dental insurance 40 years ago! :lol :lol
They had insurance….they just couldn’t afford braces. :lol
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(https://i.postimg.cc/44QV6qQp/spiderman-meme-template.png) (https://postimages.org/)
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:lol
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I'm kinda thinking Jammindude and Stadler were separated at birth. :lol
I've often referred to Ben as Stadler West just based on non sensical musical opinions.
Wait, what?!?
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I'm kinda thinking Jammindude and Stadler were separated at birth. :lol
I've often referred to Ben as Stadler West just based on non sensical musical opinions.
Wait, what?!?
(https://i.imgur.com/XB5eVVY.gif)
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Sigh.
In the beginning of 2021, I had COVID before I was eligible for vaccination, and my blood oxygen dropped to 70. I was in the ICU for a week. Thankfully, I didn't have to be intubated. I was also diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, and I had a third comorbidity - I weighed 460 pounds at the time.
So imagine my horror when the at-home test showed positive a few minutes ago. I guess I've stacked the odds a little more in my favor. I'm up to date on vaccinations, with my most recent booster two months ago. I'm down to 380, and my diabetes is in remission. A1C has been 5.3 the last few times.
So even with all that, I'm still freaking out a little. Maybe I have mild PTSD from my ICU stay? I don't know. But for what it's worth, at this point in my infection last year, my blood oxygen was 81. It's currently sitting at 97. Even with that, I'm still terrified, though. Don't know if I'll get any sleep because I'll be checking my O2 every 10 minutes.
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Damn dude. Sorry to hear that - I would suspect much of the fear is coming from between your ears. With the state of the pandemic atm, it's highly unlikely you'll get it as bad as last year.
Fingers crossed for you though.
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If your A1C is 5.3 then...I don't know. Just keep losing the weight.
I have Type 2 and I would love to get to a 5.3.
Your body is much better prepared to handle the Covid. Try to relax, dude.
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Just got home from the immediate care for what I expected to be a sinus infection and was informed I also tested positive for Covid. Not great, what with the respiratory issues my wife is going through right now. Needless to say, I now have to quarantine for 5 days. Good times.
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Just got home from the immediate care for what I expected to be a sinus infection and was informed I also tested positive for Covid. Not great, what with the respiratory issues my wife is going through right now. Needless to say, I now have to quarantine for 5 days. Good times.
You can't catch a break mate.
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Just got home from the immediate care for what I expected to be a sinus infection and was informed I also tested positive for Covid. Not great, what with the respiratory issues my wife is going through right now. Needless to say, I now have to quarantine for 5 days. Good times.
You can't catch a break mate.
Tell me about it. You sound like my coworkers. They are in utter disbelief over our 'luck' lately. Even better, my son tested positive as well.
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Hopefully, your son like most youth have very little symptoms. Us grownups get hit a little more.
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They prescribed me that Paxlovid drug for the Covid. 30 pills in 5 days. Hoping that helps me along. Thankfully, my wife tested negative. A positive test for her would be a ticket straight into the hospital.
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Hang in there, PP.
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30 pills in 5 days?! :eek
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They prescribed me that Paxlovid drug for the Covid. 30 pills in 5 days. Hoping that helps me along. Thankfully, my wife tested negative. A positive test for her would be a ticket straight into the hospital.
30? Mine was only 2 a day for 5 days.
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They prescribed me that Paxlovid drug for the Covid. 30 pills in 5 days. Hoping that helps me along. Thankfully, my wife tested negative. A positive test for her would be a ticket straight into the hospital.
30? Mine was only 2 a day for 5 days.
Huh, I was also 30 in 5 days. It was 3 pills at once, twice a day.
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Not mine. Weird. I had a ten pills. 2 a day.
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Thinking about you, Prof. Hoping for the best of a shitty situation for you and your family.
:heart
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Thinking about you, Prof. Hoping for the best of a shitty situation for you and your family.
:heart
Thanks man. You sure nailed it. Makes you ask, what else can happen? I probably shouldn't ask that.
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Thinking about you, Prof. Hoping for the best of a shitty situation for you and your family.
:heart
Thanks man. You sure nailed it. Makes you ask, what else can happen? I probably shouldn't ask that.
Shingles?
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Sorry to hear, Prof P. You're on a rough patch of road right now for sure.
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Thinking about you, Prof. Hoping for the best of a shitty situation for you and your family.
:heart
Thanks man. You sure nailed it. Makes you ask, what else can happen? I probably shouldn't ask that.
Shingles?
:lol
I'm 46. Guaranteed I'm getting that vax as soon as I can. Known several people who have suffered that and it sounds beyond awful.
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Wish you a speedy recovery.
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Shingles?
- Sean Connery, looking at his facebook advertisements.
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Well, my son lost his sense of taste and smell today. I'm getting the most sick from the Paxlovid. Stuff is nasty. Makes me feel way worse after I take it, but that is considered normal. Couple that with the awful taste it gives me in my mouth, such a foul medicine.
My buddy texted me and his daughter, who is the same age as my son, came down with it and she is extremely sick. Looking more like when and not if you get sick with this.
Just ordered a bunch of N95 masks for the post-isolation days. Also need to order more antigen tests so we can test starting on Monday to try and clear the post-isolation phase a little sooner. My insurance gives me 8 at a time for free via a prescription so that is nice, I guess.
Still have 3 more days of isolation to go. So glad I bought a new bed recently. If I had to do this on our old bed my back would be destroyed. The big wedge pillows are an extra bonus for sitting in bed. It's not too bad. I don't mind being alone. My wife is going stir crazy with me not around though. She's really struggling with this.
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Jesus, man. You need a time machine and set it to three weeks from now.
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Tested negative today. Still have to get my son when he wakes up. I was thinking about when/how I could have come down with this and started to realize I think I was on the back half of the infection when I tested positive. I have to believe I was already 4-5 days in when I tested positive. Nothing else makes sense to me.
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So I was pretty sick last week with the Flu. Like in bed for 5 days. If I hadn't known any better, I would have assumed it was covid but I was testing negative. I spread it to my gf, she had same issues. SHe even lost her sense of smell, but nope, the flu not covid. Very odd. My battle with the flu was significantly worse than my battle with covid. I have all the same fatigue as well even though I'm mostly recovered now.
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I got the flu for the first time in I don't know how long last year and it was so bad I ended up in the ER. I was shocked when it came back flu. That was immensely worse than this first bout of Covid for me.
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I'm pretty convinced everyone at my work has the 'rona. Everyone: "Nah, it's just seasonal allergies."
Bruh.
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I managed to avoid it all this time, but it finally caught me. :lol Started feeling a bit "off" Saturday afternoon, and then it just slammed me a couple of hours later. Max-vaxxed and not worried, but it's not fun. Feels like a severe cold, but with added congestion/head pressure and lethargy.
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Sounds just like what I went through.
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I got the flu for the first time in I don't know how long last year and it was so bad I ended up in the ER. I was shocked when it came back flu. That was immensely worse than this first bout of Covid for me.
Funny enough I also got a really bad case of the flu this year and I can't even remember the last time I was sick with the flu. I tested a bunch and it was always negative. It kicked my ass a lot more than when I had covid.
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In an odd turn of events, my son tested positive again. He literally has left the house once in the last month plus. Went to the ER with some stomach issues and tested positive 2 weeks after last testing positive. He has zero symptoms. If it wasn't for my wife's health we probably would mostly ignore it, but he is isolating again for a few days. Not a big deal since he doesn't like being anywhere other than his room. Just weird.
My wife had 3 hospital given tests last week alone for medical stuff and all came back negative. Been reading up and this could be a case of some leftover stuff in his system and he may not even be contagious.
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In an odd turn of events, my son tested positive again. He literally has left the house once in the last month plus. Went to the ER with some stomach issues and tested positive 2 weeks after last testing positive. He has zero symptoms. If it wasn't for my wife's health we probably would mostly ignore it, but he is isolating again for a few days. Not a big deal since he doesn't like being anywhere other than his room. Just weird.
My wife had 3 hospital given tests last week alone for medical stuff and all came back negative. Been reading up and this could be a case of some leftover stuff in his system and he may not even be contagious.
So... we've had a raging debate in our household about this. About a month and a half ago, maybe two months now, my two grandsons, their mother, her parents, and my wife all tested positive. Everyone followed the protocols from the CDC. "Mom", though better and now back to work, keeps semi-randomly testing positive. Fair play, all that could be user error; she's not the most diligent and disciplined person I've ever met. About two weeks ago, my step son tested positive. He followed the protocols, and after I think it was eight days, tested negative. Couple days later, he had to test for something at work, and popped positive. Tested AGAIN and was back to negative.
Somewhere in the corner of the inter webs my stepson found something that said that it's POSSIBLE to keep testing positive for up to three months after an initial bout of the COVIDs but without the contagiousness. I haven't been able to replicate that research, but it's a fair question. I know for me, in my house, we're not going crazy but we're trying to be reasonable. Lot's of handwashing, etc. So far, knock wood, I've dodged all the slings and arrows. It's funny; I'm the one that travels the most (I fly about twice a month) and am out in the real world most (I don't hesitate to go to shows/concerts/whatever) and yet, during that one outbreak I didn't test positive (despite repeated testing; my nose was bleeding from the repeated tests).
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I recall traveling internationally last year that you could file for some sort of excuse for positives if you can show you've been testing positive for a long period of time after the first time where you were actually sick. I don't know why this happens, but it does seem common enough.
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In an odd turn of events, my son tested positive again. He literally has left the house once in the last month plus. Went to the ER with some stomach issues and tested positive 2 weeks after last testing positive. He has zero symptoms. If it wasn't for my wife's health we probably would mostly ignore it, but he is isolating again for a few days. Not a big deal since he doesn't like being anywhere other than his room. Just weird.
My wife had 3 hospital given tests last week alone for medical stuff and all came back negative. Been reading up and this could be a case of some leftover stuff in his system and he may not even be contagious.
So... we've had a raging debate in our household about this. About a month and a half ago, maybe two months now, my two grandsons, their mother, her parents, and my wife all tested positive. Everyone followed the protocols from the CDC. "Mom", though better and now back to work, keeps semi-randomly testing positive. Fair play, all that could be user error; she's not the most diligent and disciplined person I've ever met. About two weeks ago, my step son tested positive. He followed the protocols, and after I think it was eight days, tested negative. Couple days later, he had to test for something at work, and popped positive. Tested AGAIN and was back to negative.
Somewhere in the corner of the inter webs my stepson found something that said that it's POSSIBLE to keep testing positive for up to three months after an initial bout of the COVIDs but without the contagiousness. I haven't been able to replicate that research, but it's a fair question. I know for me, in my house, we're not going crazy but we're trying to be reasonable. Lot's of handwashing, etc. So far, knock wood, I've dodged all the slings and arrows. It's funny; I'm the one that travels the most (I fly about twice a month) and am out in the real world most (I don't hesitate to go to shows/concerts/whatever) and yet, during that one outbreak I didn't test positive (despite repeated testing; my nose was bleeding from the repeated tests).
Was he doing PCR or lateral flow tests?
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In an odd turn of events, my son tested positive again. He literally has left the house once in the last month plus. Went to the ER with some stomach issues and tested positive 2 weeks after last testing positive. He has zero symptoms. If it wasn't for my wife's health we probably would mostly ignore it, but he is isolating again for a few days. Not a big deal since he doesn't like being anywhere other than his room. Just weird.
My wife had 3 hospital given tests last week alone for medical stuff and all came back negative. Been reading up and this could be a case of some leftover stuff in his system and he may not even be contagious.
So... we've had a raging debate in our household about this. About a month and a half ago, maybe two months now, my two grandsons, their mother, her parents, and my wife all tested positive. Everyone followed the protocols from the CDC. "Mom", though better and now back to work, keeps semi-randomly testing positive. Fair play, all that could be user error; she's not the most diligent and disciplined person I've ever met. About two weeks ago, my step son tested positive. He followed the protocols, and after I think it was eight days, tested negative. Couple days later, he had to test for something at work, and popped positive. Tested AGAIN and was back to negative.
Somewhere in the corner of the inter webs my stepson found something that said that it's POSSIBLE to keep testing positive for up to three months after an initial bout of the COVIDs but without the contagiousness. I haven't been able to replicate that research, but it's a fair question. I know for me, in my house, we're not going crazy but we're trying to be reasonable. Lot's of handwashing, etc. So far, knock wood, I've dodged all the slings and arrows. It's funny; I'm the one that travels the most (I fly about twice a month) and am out in the real world most (I don't hesitate to go to shows/concerts/whatever) and yet, during that one outbreak I didn't test positive (despite repeated testing; my nose was bleeding from the repeated tests).
Was he doing PCR or lateral flow tests?
I have never performed CPR on him and I know nothing about his flow. We're not that close. :)
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::)
To rephrase, was it a lab test or one of the little plastic thingies that look similar to a pregnancy test?
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::)
To rephrase, was it a lab test or one of the little plastic thingies that look similar to a pregnancy test?
Pregnancy test. Swab the nose, drip the drops, wait 15 minutes and "one bar or two?".
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That is indeed curious. False positives for lateral flow testing kits do happen, but they are exceedingly rare according to UK statistics at least. These kits are far less sensitive than lab tests, so you only really get positive results if you have an active infection. PCR (lab) positives are more common in the aftermath of an infection depending on the particulars of your immune response.
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That is indeed curious. False positives for lateral flow testing kits do happen, but they are exceedingly rare according to UK statistics at least.
That was my understanding, too.
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Like Stads, the stuff I was reading was similar. I have a feeling this is the case of some leftover material that hasn't flushed out of his system and caused a positive. It's most likely not contagious but just some leftover parts of the bug. I'll probably test him sooner than 5 days. Like I said, doesn't really affect him other that he keeps his door closed and comes down to the kitchen with an N95 mask on. We stocked up on those when both he and I tested positive. All to protect my wife.
The only time he left the house after the first isolation was with my wife, in her car, and they were together for 4-5 hours. She keeps testing negative at the hospital which really fuels my belief he's not contagious.
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Are the tests all from the same batch? Could just be a compliance/QA issue.
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Are the tests all from the same batch? Could just be a compliance/QA issue.
Well, on that I can answer; we've been mixing and matching brands. My healthcare still allows for up to 8 kits per month. We've been getting them pretty regularly (and using them because of the grand kids) and so it's only been recently that we've had any consistency in brands.
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For us, I tested positive in the immediate care with the high-end test. My son then tested positive with the at home antigen test after I got home. We both then tested negative twice in 48 hours on the antigen tests. He then tested positive again in the ER with their high-end test.
Like Stads, I get 8 tests per person per 30 days via insurance. We got 2 batches so far. Both are the Flowflex tests.
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Are the tests all from the same batch? Could just be a compliance/QA issue.
Since I've had reason to do some digging on false positives the past couple of days >:( ...they are pretty rare, and what was found in a particular study was that there was a bum batch of tests that resulted in most of the observations. So yeah, mixing up batches/brands is good.
Also, Paxlovid can drive you towards a negative result, but there can be a rebound and you start testing again. All that business about reinfection wiith omicron a month after having it the first time was very likely actually just Paxlovid rebound.
We had a carpenter in on Thursday to put in the baby gates and cat door for the basement...he took a test on Thursday night on a lark, and showed up positive. He was wearing a mask throughout (he's hyper careful, he's had a recurrence of cancer), and we were most of the time, but of course the baby wasn't. We're all a vaxxed as we can be, but this is really not making things fun at the moment. Odds of long Covid off omicron seem to be about 5%, but it will really fuck things up if you are in that 5%. To that point...
My cousin (mid 40s) got it in ~May. Not long before that, he had to switch up some of his psych meds, as the ones that had worked for him for a decade went out of production for some reason. Well, ever since he had Covid, has has had significant post-acute CNS issues, to a point where he couldn't even work anymore. His psychiatrist was trying other meds, and this culminated in my cousin winding up in the hospital after yelling at the cops that he was Jesus. After that was pretty rocky, and he wound up being involuntarily hospitalized again starting the night before Thanksgiving, for a week. What a fucking mess. Well, I think I figured out what happened. I stumbled across something in the literature about inflammation and increased permeability of the blood/brain barrier during/after Covid. So, I think he was effectively getting mega-doses of his meds, which sent him into psychosis. Why I had to be the one to figure this out, and not his fucking psychiatrist, well....
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Dayum. Hopefully a new 'scrip/dosage will clear that up!
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Yeesh...sounds like a lot. Hope he finds a regimen that works for him.
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To anyone in the medical/hospital industry - is there any talk of relaxing the requirement for patients being required to provide a PCR covid test prior to a procedure?
My father in law had a scheduled surgery yesterday that was delayed for over three hours because there was a mixup with the clinic not providing the surgical center with his PCR covid test results. My father in law went and got tested 3 days prior and the hospital could see that, but they never received the results. After we got it cleared up, he was taken down for the surgery - I asked an orderly that escorted me to the pre-op area if he had heard anything about relaxing the PCR test requirement and he said possibly soon.
I'm just curious if anyone else has heard any talk about it.
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Are the tests all from the same batch? Could just be a compliance/QA issue.
Since I've had reason to do some digging on false positives the past couple of days >:( ...they are pretty rare, and what was found in a particular study was that there was a bum batch of tests that resulted in most of the observations. So yeah, mixing up batches/brands is good.
Also, Paxlovid can drive you towards a negative result, but there can be a rebound and you start testing again. All that business about reinfection wiith omicron a month after having it the first time was very likely actually just Paxlovid rebound.
We had a carpenter in on Thursday to put in the baby gates and cat door for the basement...he took a test on Thursday night on a lark, and showed up positive. He was wearing a mask throughout (he's hyper careful, he's had a recurrence of cancer), and we were most of the time, but of course the baby wasn't. We're all a vaxxed as we can be, but this is really not making things fun at the moment. Odds of long Covid off omicron seem to be about 5%, but it will really fuck things up if you are in that 5%. To that point...
My cousin (mid 40s) got it in ~May. Not long before that, he had to switch up some of his psych meds, as the ones that had worked for him for a decade went out of production for some reason. Well, ever since he had Covid, has has had significant post-acute CNS issues, to a point where he couldn't even work anymore. His psychiatrist was trying other meds, and this culminated in my cousin winding up in the hospital after yelling at the cops that he was Jesus. After that was pretty rocky, and he wound up being involuntarily hospitalized again starting the night before Thanksgiving, for a week. What a fucking mess. Well, I think I figured out what happened. I stumbled across something in the literature about inflammation and increased permeability of the blood/brain barrier during/after Covid. So, I think he was effectively getting mega-doses of his meds, which sent him into psychosis. Why I had to be the one to figure this out, and not his fucking psychiatrist, well....
First (and foremost), I hope the Millah family makes it through these tribulations unscathed. I have a one-year-old grandson and I get the anxiety all this produces.
But second - and to be very clear, I am NOT a conspiracy theorist, and I believe science first and foremost - that last example is one of my worries. We DON'T know everything, and sometimes we don't know what we don't know. I know you can't plan for the 1% every time, but in cases like that... it's one of the reasons I'm so against mandates and people telling me (or my family) what I have to do. It's certainly one of the reasons why I'm so against a political party or political bloc bullying me into doing to what they WANT me to do vis-a-vis medicine. And finally it's one of the reasons I'm so against "media" (in quotes to cover social media, news media, etc.) being the information source, since too often there is an agenda that is antithetical to REAL truth, the hard truth, the truth with bumpy edges and subtle nuances.
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So China appears to be fucked ATM. They have reported good vaccination rates (90%) so that might be helpful. But reportedly the elderly are the most reluctant to get the jab (40%) and that is definitely not good. Hospitals are struggling to cope with the surge.
Their zero Covid policy is reportedly biting them in the butt now. I can't help but wonder how this is going to impact world economy going forward.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/12/18/china-covid-model-deaths/
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Yeah, one way or another - it was going to be a disaster. The economy is going to continue to suffer with shortages. Trying to hold back a Tsunami for 3 years, and now it's built up so much the whole dam is going to bust.
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Economy wise, I would imagine this will only accelerate the process of the west investing in their own domestic chip fabrication. But yeah, I think its a tragedy that China didnt use these 3 years to get the vulnerable population vaccinated. 40% in the elderly population is pretty terrible.
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Economy wise, I would imagine this will only accelerate the process of the west investing in their own domestic chip fabrication. But yeah, I think its a tragedy that China didnt use these 3 years to get the vulnerable population vaccinated. 40% in the elderly population is pretty terrible.
Combined with the lower efficacy of their vaccine, and 3 years of "zero COVID" policies have gained little-to-no infection or herd immunity, this is a disaster waiting to happen. In the old matter of 'bend but don't break', China seems like it's about to break because they refused to bend.
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Anyone here know what percentage of Chinese exports North America relies on for pharmaceuticals and medical supplies? Asking for a friend.
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Probably a shit ton. Just like every other product.
Oh, also, The Grinch came early for me. COVID positive on Saturday. Nothing serious health wise - sniffles, sneezing, watery eyes. Like hayfever, tbh. But, mrs.jingle and jingle.daughter have not had it yet, and jingle.daughter has a very important week in her school placement - teaching three lessons this week. So, being Christmas and all, this is a ripe-fucking-shitty time for this to hit.
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So sorry, Chad. That's a major bummer getting it right at this time. :(
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Probably a shit ton. Just like every other product.
Oh, also, The Grinch came early for me. COVID positive on Saturday. Nothing serious health wise - sniffles, sneezing, watery eyes. Like hayfever, tbh. But, mrs.jingle and jingle.daughter have not had it yet, and jingle.daughter has a very important week in her school placement - teaching three lessons this week. So, being Christmas and all, this is a ripe-fucking-shitty time for this to hit.
Shit, that fucking sucks mate! :tdwn
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Ugh - sorry to hear that. I hope you recover quickly and the family doesn't get it next.
But could the silver lining be getting to avoid the in-laws for Christmas? My husband and I had the flu for Christmas like in 2016. The worst illness I've ever had but there was that one silver lining...plus I got to sleep all day on Christmas and when does THAT ever happen?
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Probably a shit ton. Just like every other product.
Oh, also, The Grinch came early for me. COVID positive on Saturday. Nothing serious health wise - sniffles, sneezing, watery eyes. Like hayfever, tbh. But, mrs.jingle and jingle.daughter have not had it yet, and jingle.daughter has a very important week in her school placement - teaching three lessons this week. So, being Christmas and all, this is a ripe-fucking-shitty time for this to hit.
That blows Chad. Good luck to Jinggirl.
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Ugh - sorry to hear that. I hope you recover quickly and the family doesn't get it next.
But could the silver lining be getting to avoid the in-laws for Christmas? My husband and I had the flu for Christmas like in 2016. The worst illness I've ever had but there was that one silver lining...plus I got to sleep all day on Christmas and when does THAT ever happen?
If only I had that silver lining. We disassociated with our respective (sibling) in-laws a few years ago. The only family we see this time of year is our respective mothers. My dad passed away a few years ago, and mrs.jingle's dad is figuratively dead to her. So, it's a double bummer if we don't get to see them - because they also don't have much family to spend time with.
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Ugh - sorry to hear that. I hope you recover quickly and the family doesn't get it next.
But could the silver lining be getting to avoid the in-laws for Christmas? My husband and I had the flu for Christmas like in 2016. The worst illness I've ever had but there was that one silver lining...plus I got to sleep all day on Christmas and when does THAT ever happen?
If only I had that silver lining. We disassociated with our respective (sibling) in-laws a few years ago. The only family we see this time of year is our respective mothers. My dad passed away a few years ago, and mrs.jingle's dad is figuratively dead to her. So, it's a double bummer if we don't get to see them - because they also don't have much family to spend time with.
*Internet hug Chad* I'm like Mrs. jingle in relation to my father and we are also going to skip the inlaws this year but only because they are just too stressful to be around.
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mrs.jingle is positive.
(https://media.tenor.com/HP4xD1x7fnMAAAAC/good-times-margaret-jo-mc-cullin.gif)
She's taking it surprisingly well - guess she got all her anger out over the weekend. health-wise, it ain't no big thing ... my symptoms were already abating on Sunday; she's starting to get a little sneezy. The bigger thing is trying to make sure we don't spread it to the jingle.young-adults.
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sorry to hear that, hope the symptoms stay mild.
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Anyone here know what percentage of Chinese exports North America relies on for pharmaceuticals and medical supplies? Asking for a friend.
I'm probably the best person here to answer that, though the best I can do is a lot of hand-waving.
A substantial portion of the starting materials for the synthesis of small molecule drugs come from China. The manufacture of the drugs themselves is more typically going to be in India or the US.
I wouldn't expect the biologic drugs would be subject to much impact, those supply chains don't typically involve China.
As for medical supplies, I guess it depends what supplies in particular. Much of that stuff goes through Puerto Rico (for example, after one of the hurricanes took down a couple of manufacturing facilities for a couple of months, there was a shortage of IV saline bags).
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Economy wise, I would imagine this will only accelerate the process of the west investing in their own domestic chip fabrication. But yeah, I think its a tragedy that China didnt use these 3 years to get the vulnerable population vaccinated. 40% in the elderly population is pretty terrible.
Combined with the lower efficacy of their vaccine, and 3 years of "zero COVID" policies have gained little-to-no infection or herd immunity, this is a disaster waiting to happen. In the old matter of 'bend but don't break', China seems like it's about to break because they refused to bend.
I'm not totally clear what you all are advocating for? Forced vaccination? Why wouldn't that be yet another adder to the list of the supposed human rights violations that get tagged on China (I only write it that way because while many ARE legit complaints, not all are)?
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Probably a shit ton. Just like every other product.
Oh, also, The Grinch came early for me. COVID positive on Saturday. Nothing serious health wise - sniffles, sneezing, watery eyes. Like hayfever, tbh. But, mrs.jingle and jingle.daughter have not had it yet, and jingle.daughter has a very important week in her school placement - teaching three lessons this week. So, being Christmas and all, this is a ripe-fucking-shitty time for this to hit.
God bless; I hope your family can come out of this unscathed. :heart
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Hey Chad, hope it skates through your household with minimal impact.
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Economy wise, I would imagine this will only accelerate the process of the west investing in their own domestic chip fabrication. But yeah, I think its a tragedy that China didnt use these 3 years to get the vulnerable population vaccinated. 40% in the elderly population is pretty terrible.
Combined with the lower efficacy of their vaccine, and 3 years of "zero COVID" policies have gained little-to-no infection or herd immunity, this is a disaster waiting to happen. In the old matter of 'bend but don't break', China seems like it's about to break because they refused to bend.
I'm not totally clear what you all are advocating for? Forced vaccination? Why wouldn't that be yet another adder to the list of the supposed human rights violations that get tagged on China (I only write it that way because while many ARE legit complaints, not all are)?
I’m not advocating for anything. Just offering my thoughts and receptions on the matter.
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Just tested positive. High fever, brutal body aches and cough. So much for a Christmas gathering.
Hopefully it's short in duration.
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Dammit. Hopefully it passes fast for you emtee.
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Sucks to be sick for Christmas.
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2nd negative test last night, so I'm out of the woods. mrs.jingle ... tested this morning; line is faint, but she's probably got a couple more days before her 1st negative test. One more day of Pax meds.
jingle.young-adults dodged it this time. So the score is Covid 4 (me x 2; jingle.son, mrs.jingle); jingle.house 1 (jingle.daughter).
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Sucks to be sick for Christmas.
This. Last year covid ruined Christmas for my family. So far, we are looking good to celebrate as usual tonight and tomorrow, but yeah, it's definitely causing issues for lots of people right now. Same with the flu. Fingers crossed everyone has a safe holiday and those who are sick, get well soon.
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Since the topic of Myocarditis has been coming up a lot recently and I happened to find this study that was shared on reddit, figured I'd share it here too:
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.061025 (https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.061025)
CONCLUSIONS:
Immunoprofiling of vaccinated adolescents and young adults revealed that the mRNA vaccine–induced immune responses did not differ between individuals who developed myocarditis and individuals who did not. However, free spike antigen was detected in the blood of adolescents and young adults who developed post-mRNA vaccine myocarditis, advancing insight into its potential underlying cause.
Seems like they are starting to find that certain people had an underlying "condition" (I don't think that's the right word, but not sure how else to explain it) where they were going to be susceptible to this reaction and it seems that if they didn't get the vaccine and instead got a natural covid infection, they likely would have had Myocarditis and it likely would have been worse.
It seems like it's just an unfortunate aspect of a vaccine that's very safe, but still can cause an issue with a very tiny portion of the population. This other article's study found that to be as high as 39 cases per 100,000, so that's a good idea of the % chance that you would be the unfortnate person to have an myocarditis issue. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/eci.13947 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/eci.13947)
Also, before people say that's still not acceptable (which I feel is a bit bogus to think considering all other risks we generally take), those who had myocarditis were almost all healed naturally and were mild cases. It's an incredibly smaller % of those who had sever or death from this.
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Lucky me. 2nd bout of Covid. I had been triple vaxxed and got it last January on a business trip to Vegas. I have a compromised immune system so my doc sent me for monoclonal antibodies.
I meant to get the latest iteration of the vaccine. The key word is "meant" in that sentence. 😑
I was on a business trip this past Tuesday and due to storms was stuck in Atlanta overnight and at the airport for about 19 hours. Now on Paxlovid and feeling miserable af.
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I dont know what's worse, being stuck in the airport for that long or having covid. Either way, you got hit hard. Feel better soon.
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I guess I'm wondering how people who get Covid these days know that they have it. I mean yeah, you get tested and the test says you have it, but how did you decide to get tested in the first place? What made you think it was Covid and not just a regular cold? It's winter where I am. I get sniffles, coughs, sore throat, and it's gone in a day or two. I'll admit, if I cough more than once or twice in an hour, I'll think "Oh shit, is this it? Did I finally get Covid?" Then later I realize that I haven't coughed for the rest of the day, and the next day, I'm fine. This has happened a few times. If it's gone the next day, I'm gonna assume it wasn't Covid, and even if it was, I'm not even showing symptoms anymore.
Covid is a respiratory disease, so I assume the cough is going to be a bronchial cough, my lungs feeling like there's crap in there that needs to be expelled, not a tickle in the back of my throat like a "normal" cough.
They say that if I'm showing symptoms, I should get tested. Well, yeah. But how are Covid symptoms any different from my normal winter maladies?
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It's tough, but I think part of it is instinctual. There's been so many times the last two years where I had the sniffles and didn't think I had covid, but only tested to make sure and be safe for going into work with others. But when I finally did have covid, I just knew that was it. Even last month when I had the flu, I knew it wasn't covid for some reason. I tested, negative. I just got over a small cold too, this time I didn't bother testing. I was pretty sure it wasn't covid, and I guess I'll never know, but it was a quick recovery and a mild cold.
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I hear ya Bob, I've had those situations for months (Is this dry throat COVID? Is this random headache going to develop into something else? Is this just a tickle in my throat, or might it be the first sign of COVID?) I think if multiple symptoms persist for an extended period (more than a day), the prudent thing to do is test. Not sure if RATs are still readily available in the US, but they are up here. So, after I had very bad sniffling/sneezing/watery eyes for a couple days, I tested. I was positive, but the symptoms abated almost immediately, and it wasn't no big deal for me. However, I'd already passed it to mrs.jingle, and she got a really bad case.
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When I had it a few months ago, it started as a tingle in the back of my throat on a Saturday afternoon. By Sunday afternoon it had developed into a sore throat, low energy and coughing. When I went to sleep that night, I slept 2 hours before I woke up feeling like I was suffocating. After being up for 3 hours in the middle of the night, decided to grab a test and it came back positive.
So I guess for me was more that progressively getting worse that made me want to get tested, instead of initially assuming that's what it was.
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For me it was the combo of high fever and worst body aches I've ever had. It started with a tickle in the throat and then chills. Then the fever hit and kicked my ass. I still have a slight cough.
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For me it was the combo of high fever and worst body aches I've ever had. It started with a tickle in the throat and then chills. Then the fever hit and kicked my ass. I still have a slight cough.
I think Bob's point is, what if the symptoms aren't quite as obvious or severe?
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Basically, yeah. If I feel really sick and have multiple symptoms, especially for several days, I'll get tested. But regular colds still exist, and I get them sometimes. Sure, I'd like to err on the side of caution, but I'm not giving in to paranoia, either.
I've heard from a few friends who've had Covid in the past year that "it was like having a bad cold or flu". Well, if that's all it was, then maybe I don't see the problem.
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All I know is, I had a series of work trips back in Oct./Nov. and I had some potential COVID exposure. Every sniffle, every cough, every clearing of my throat, I did a test. At one point, my nose was bleeding from taking the friggin' swab up the nostril. All negative.
I'm not testing after every possible symptom. If there's reasonable doubt as to whether I have it, I'll gladly test all day long, but all the millions of viruses and what not that have been around for decades didn't just disappear when COVID came along.
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Basically, yeah. If I feel really sick and have multiple symptoms, especially for several days, I'll get tested. But regular colds still exist, and I get them sometimes. Sure, I'd like to err on the side of caution, but I'm not giving in to paranoia, either.
I'm not sure taking a test is giving in to paranoia?
I've heard from a few friends who've had Covid in the past year that "it was like having a bad cold or flu". Well, if that's all it was, then maybe I don't see the problem.
From personal experience (see above)... that might all it be for you/me, but as evidenced by my situation, others can directly catch it, and get much more sick. THAT is the issue to be aware of.
:tup to Stads. I'm of the same mind.
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Yea, taking a test isn't giving into paranoia. I've never had COVID to my knowledge but I have gotten tested a lot. Better to just quickly rule it out.
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For me, if I show up into the office coughing... people are going to ask. That's just how it is these days. There's clear signs all over the building to not come in if you are sick. But if you just have a cold, I think it's fine to come in. But you can't be sure without taking a test, so just take a home test and then when people ask, you can give them a sense of safety knowing you don't have covid.
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I never had the sore throat or cold-like symptoms when I got it. I was 99% certain it was just a stomach bug/flu type sickness. I only took the test because my work needed me too. I would have gone back to work within 48 hours because I felt good enough to do so although I did have a lingering cough.
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I mean yeah, you get tested and the test says you have it, but how did you decide to get tested in the first place?
I think people are just curious.
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I mean yeah, you get tested and the test says you have it, but how did you decide to get tested in the first place?
I think people are just curious.
Of they feel sick and start to test. That's what I did. I felt run down and felt a fever coming on and yup, I was positive.
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I mean yeah, you get tested and the test says you have it, but how did you decide to get tested in the first place?
I think people are just curious.
For me, it's a courtesy thing. I have a family member that is HIV positive. If we have a family gathering and one of my kids is sick, I want to re-assure them that nobody in the house has covid. During the height of the pandemic, my kids having the sniffles kept that individual from coming once or twice, just to be safe. Same goes for work or school - we don't want to send a covid-positive person out of the house until they're not as contagious.
So we test for covid when we feel the need to test, but not every single time someone gets sick.
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That all makes sense. I was just curious, because I do get seasonal allergies and "normal" coughs and sniffles, and my workplace has signs saying "Do not come in if you have cough, fever, headache, etc." (something like that), but I'm not going to test every time I have a cough. Two straight days of coughing with no sign of it get any better, yeah, I'll test. I've tested three times so far; I'm not against it or anything. I was just wondering how others decided to test, and it's pretty much what I figured.
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Just move to Missouri.....Covid doesn't exist here anymore.