Re: DT16 Timeline Thread - John finished recording guitar parts

[nobloodyname]

Sure.

The point is the other band members are not subject to criticism on the same basis.

[hefdaddy42]

Because they aren't guilty of it like he is.

This is pretty simple.

[nobloodyname]

When was the last time JP did something innovative? He's not exactly Tosin Abasi.

"This is pretty simple"? Good grief.

[hefdaddy42]

Do you mean, innovative for him?  Or innovative for the guitar world?

He used an 8-string on the latest album.  That's new, for him.  Which is kind of the point.  MP never does anything new for him, anymore.

Not sure what you're looking for here.  MP has been fairly open about no longer developing his game, or even practicing any more.  That's the source of all the crap he gets, and also why no one else gets any crap.

[Setlist Scotty]

He used an 8-string on the latest album.  That's new, for him.  Which is kind of the point.  MP never does anything new for him, anymore.

In all fairness, if you're going to reference the 8-string, it's easy to counter with the fact that MP has historically changed his drum set up for different bands, and to varying degrees between DT album/tour cycles, which I don't think is really that much different. It could even be argued that him playing in the variety of different bands and with the different musicians has given him new experiences to reference as he returns to the studio with DT. So it has to be more than just that. I'd give JR a pass because he's always monkeying with new devices and apps. But when it comes to JP and JM, I gotta agree with Paul that it's not as if they're doing anything revolutionary with their respective instruments either, even though they do practice regularly (especially JM).

I think another thing to keep in mind is that MP was super busy juggling a bunch of other things for DT and other bands, so it's not as if he wasn't keeping busy. In fact, he sometimes commented about how he was still busy doing stuff like editing concert videos while the rest of the band enjoyed a break. Of course he brought that on himself, and for now it's hard to say how much that, or his outside bands/projects, will consume his time now that he's back in DT after the extended break. But he's a workaholic. It's just that sitting behind a drum kit and practicing technique is not something that is a priority for him; he'd rather spend that time in other constructive ways or on vacation.

[hefdaddy42]

I'll just say that, as someone who plays drums and guitar, that changing from 17 drums to 21 drums or 12 cymbals to 15 cymbals is not the same as changing from 7 strings to 8 strings.  It's not the same.

And I already said that I wouldn't characterize MP as lazy.  That's not it, not the way I would describe it.  But he's definitely less into putting time into his instrument than the others.  It's not a comparison or disparagement I would make, but it's easy to see why people make it.

[Setlist Scotty]

I'll just say that, as someone who plays drums and guitar, that changing from 17 drums to 21 drums or 12 cymbals to 15 cymbals is not the same as changing from 7 strings to 8 strings.  It's not the same.

Fair enough. Not being a musician, I'll take your word for it. And as a disclaimer, I'm certainly not trying to be overly critical of JP's or JM's playing. But being that you say there is a difference between them growing as musicians as opposed to MP with his "bag 'o tricks"®, can you cite some specific examples where JP and JM have really shown growth in comparison to MP? And by that, not simply that JP now has an eight-string.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

The criticism that MP gets is unique to his situation but I do not think the other guys are immune from criticism. As hef pointed out, JM, JR and JP all practice daily so they do not get flack for not practicing. They get hit for other things.

JR gets accused of just noodling through all of his solos, which is fair in my view. When it first came out I was not so thrilled by how much JP relied on single note chugging on View, in spite of my belief that it is an overall very good performance. But those guys practice all the time and JP has done so many lessons over the years. He has a huge vocabulary and skill set to call upon because of decades of continued practice. He is not to guitar what MP is to drums. I think some of the 'meh' feelings about the drums is that people feel like MP is relying on a relatively small set of ideas that does not seem to grow. It doesn't mean he isn't a great player. BB King had a much smaller vocabulary than contemporaries and he is still a legend. As the years went on he actually played less and less.

As for JP, he is not innovating like Tosin but as others said, adding an 8 string to the mix is something a little different; let's see where it goes. I don't need him or anyone else in the band to innovate necessarily. Ultimately I do expect JP NOT to repeat himself all the time and I think he does a very good job of that.

[TAC]

I, for one, am in no way going to underestimate MP and his ability. I think he is going to BRING IT on the next DT album. He has worked very hard to get back into the band and I think he probably feels like he's got something to prove.

[porcacultor]

I, for one, am in no way going to underestimate MP and his ability. I think he is going to BRING IT on the next DT album. He has worked very hard to get back into the band and I think he probably feels like he's got something to prove.

That what I'm expecting too. I can't imagine him phoning it in, not on this occasion (I don't think he ever does, really).

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I don't think anyone is accusing him of 'phoning it in' or being lazy.

[porcacultor]

I don't think anyone is accusing him of 'phoning it in' or being lazy.

Ok? I definitely didn't address this at anyone, it was just my way of conveying the message.

[gzarruk]

What I think contributes to MP being criticized for it (besides him publicly admitting to not practicing at all) is that he has released a lot more albums than the other guys, so we hear the same "bag of tricks" on a lot more albums on a yearly basis. Him being so prolific actually hurts him in a way because we get to hear him do his thing in a lot more albums and a lot of different bands at the same time. It can get tiring for some people.

[The Letter M]

What I think contributes to MP being criticized for it (besides him publicly admitting to not practicing at all) is that he has released a lot more albums than the other guys, so we hear the same "bag of tricks" on a lot more albums on a yearly basis. Him being so prolific actually hurts him in a way because we get to hear him do his thing in a lot more albums and a lot of different bands at the same time. It can get tiring for some people.

What's interesting about that is you hear those criticisms from Megafans who seek out to listen to everything MP does so they're submitting themselves to hearing all of these different bands and albums Mike's done and hearing his usual fills and grooves.

I love a lot of what Mike has done and consider myself a fairly avid fan but I never got into AMob, Metal Allegiance, TWD, or heard his stuff with A7X or Bigelf, so there's quite a bit of his stuff I've never heard. I haven't overexposed myself to his playing like I'm sure many of his fans have, and so I don't feel like I've heard the same stuff over and over.

To me, Mike just has a certain style and musical vocabulary that has reached its max capacity. Many musicians reach that and for better or worse, it's what makes them well-known or popular. Some fans love that and expect it, while others grow tired. It's all about expectations, both of the musician and the fan.

Do I expect Mike to blow us away with DT16? Not really but I do expect drumming on par with anything Mike has done in the last 13 years, and none of that has disappointed me personally.

-Marc.

[Lax]

I usually regret that posts get lost in the quantity, so I'm quite happy to see I've created a pair of answers
I guess we are going to be quieted down since we are off topic tho...

About the "lazy MP"
-I felt personnally that most drum tracks were getting less and less surprising after SDOIT.
-Inspiration corner technique is the opposite of creativity to me.
That's why I got the feeling MP was becoming lazy in DT.

About the "I hope MP doesn't cripple modern DT" thing :
-Modern DT is already criticized for being just a binge a repeat of chug chug, answering+unisson solo, no more risk taken with songs with no verses, rare instrumentals, rare epics, you name it.
-There is still a way to bring modern DT down to something even less surprising and appealing.
So I said I hope MP is coming with fresh ideas, because many people dislike modern DT.
As I am not expecting much, it leaves room to be happily surprised !

AVFTTOTW changed my perception of the band with MM, the drum tracks are fantastic and intricate. Who knows what the next album would have been.

Jumping on the critics wagon, I disagree about it being unbalanced :
-JR is litterally hated by people who can't stand his pig sound solos etc (I have many on the guitar discord)
-JM is criticized as a guitarist copying what JP is doing. I would hate being treated as an octave pedal !
-JLB is getting obliterated.
-JP is harder to criticize because he is feeled as the band's motor, especially producing stuff, and with things like the astonishing. On the other hand, he is expected to drop outstanding solos and he did that through all the albums...So it's hard to call his entire composing lazy.

[emtee]

I can almost guarantee that MP will create some new fills and add to his bag of tricks for #16.

He said on more than one occasion that there was an insane expectation to always outdo each previous album while in DT and it weighed on him. He's now enjoyed a long break from DT and that pressure has been absent. DT is going to attempt to blow our minds (conjecture on my part) and each member is going to dig deep to try to create something special. Just wait...

[gzarruk]

To me, Mike just has a certain style and musical vocabulary that has reached its max capacity. Many musicians reach that and for better or worse, it's what makes them well-known or popular. Some fans love that and expect it, while others grow tired. It's all about expectations, both of the musician and the fan.

Do I expect Mike to blow us away with DT16? Not really but I do expect drumming on par with anything Mike has done in the last 13 years, and none of that has disappointed me personally.

-Marc.

I think that's a very accurate explanation/description. And, yeah, we shouldn't expect Mike or DT as a whole to reinvent the wheel for album 16.

[hefdaddy42]

But being that you say there is a difference between them growing as musicians as opposed to MP with his "bag 'o tricks"®, can you cite some specific examples where JP and JM have really shown growth in comparison to MP? And by that, not simply that JP now has an eight-string.

No.  I mean, I guess it's within my ability, but I don't care enough to take the time to go on such a search.  Like I said, it's not my argument, it's just one that I understand.

[Wim Kruithof]

I've spend many hours in all those Portnoy-back threads but there is one thing I can't get my finger round... if Dream Theater is so excited to have Portnoy back... if they feel like the circle is full and inspiration is going through the roof... why can't we?

I became fan in the Mangini era and Mangini is wonderful gifted, but if Petrucci, Rudess, Myung and even LaBrie can't wait to get back into the studio with founder Portnoy, neither can I.

[crystalstars17]

I've spend many hours in all those Portnoy-back threads but there is one thing I can't get my finger round... if Dream Theater is so excited to have Portnoy back... if they feel like the circle is full and inspiration is going through the roof... why can't we?

I became fan in the Mangini era and Mangini is wonderful gifted, but if Petrucci, Rudess, Myung and even LaBrie can't wait to get back into the studio with founder Portnoy, neither can I.

i can't deny that you have a point here.

[TAC]

if Dream Theater is so excited to have Portnoy back... if they feel like the circle is full and inspiration is going through the roof... why can't we?

How excited are they? It's been crickets since the announcement. Perhaps they have some sort of agreement with Mangini to not overshadow his solo album press campaign. I feel like you just don't reunite with MP and not do a few press/podcast interviews yourself about it.


I think one of the reasons, personally, is that Mangini was just so damned likeable. If he were to leave and MP return, I think a lot of said that we'd at least hope it would've been of his own accord, which it was clearly not. Plus, the music didn't suffer at all in the Mangini Era. They've continued to make excellent albums.

I think there were a lot of people that were sick of MP's schtick when he left, including some in the band.

One other thing is that it's been surmised by some that this was a business decision and that the end is near. Those aren't exactly reasons to get excited either.

[nikatapi]

if Dream Theater is so excited to have Portnoy back... if they feel like the circle is full and inspiration is going through the roof... why can't we?

How excited are they? It's been crickets since the announcement. Perhaps they have some sort of agreement with Mangini to not overshadow his solo album press campaign. I feel like you just don't reunite with MP and not do a few press/podcast interviews yourself about it.


I think one of the reasons, personally, is that Mangini was just so damned likeable. If he were to leave and MP return, I think a lot of said that we'd at least hope it would've been of his own accord, which it was clearly not. Plus, the music didn't suffer at all in the Mangini Era. They've continued to make excellent albums.

I think there were a lot of people that were sick of MP's schtick when he left, including some in the band.

One other thing is that it's been surmised by some that this was a business decision and that the end is near. Those aren't exactly reasons to get excited either.

Keep in mind that Portnoy was on tour with The Winery Dogs until very recently.

[TAC]

Keep in mind that Portnoy was on tour with The Winery Dogs until very recently.

But why would that stop JP from doing interviews? I wonder if Rodrigo has put in a request yet, and if so, what has he been told. I think there'd be tons of places that would want an interview with any member of DT.

I wonder if they've given Mangini, say, 30 days of non competing press so he can promote his solo album.

[Wim Kruithof]

I wonder if they've given Mangini, say, 30 days of non competing press so he can promote his solo album.

This. Showing respect to Mangini is all I can think of.

[MrMike]

But why would that stop JP from doing interviews? I wonder if Rodrigo has put in a request yet, and if so, what has he been told. I think there'd be tons of places that would want an interview with any member of DT.

I wonder if they've given Mangini, say, 30 days of non competing press so he can promote his solo album.

My guess is there's not much more for them to say at this point.  MP is still in Japan with TWD until the end of next week.  Until he's able to be fully involved and they're able to get together and begin writing (which may not be until January), all they likely know at this point is that yes MP is coming back.  Which everyone with internet access already knows by now.

[Mosh]

When Blaze Bayley was dismissed from Maiden, he was given, among other deals, a solo album deal. His first album came out around the same time (maybe even the same day) as Iron Maiden's new album, Brave New World. The release calendar was determined by the record label and it was seen as kinda shitty to Blaze as it totally overshadowed the release of his album. I suppose Dream Theater wants to avoid even the perception of something similar like that and genuinely want Mangini to have a good shot at a successful solo career. Anyway, it's not like there is much to talk about until there's some new music anyway.

[MirrorMask]

You're correct, they came a week apart - 22th May for Blaze, 29th May Brave New World.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I don't think there is anything more for them to say at this stage. MP is a pretty straight shooter so over time I wouldn't be surprised if he gives his full account of what happened. But as for right now, I assume everything they wanted to say at this time was included in the press release.

[Setlist Scotty]

But being that you say there is a difference between them growing as musicians as opposed to MP with his "bag 'o tricks"®, can you cite some specific examples where JP and JM have really shown growth in comparison to MP? And by that, not simply that JP now has an eight-string.

No.  I mean, I guess it's within my ability, but I don't care enough to take the time to go on such a search.  Like I said, it's not my argument, it's just one that I understand.

Well, just before you told Paul "This is pretty simple." So I would imagine it should be easy for you to explain. So with all due respect, the fact that you won't (or can't) kinda proves Paul's point.

[hefdaddy42]

But being that you say there is a difference between them growing as musicians as opposed to MP with his "bag 'o tricks"®, can you cite some specific examples where JP and JM have really shown growth in comparison to MP? And by that, not simply that JP now has an eight-string.

No.  I mean, I guess it's within my ability, but I don't care enough to take the time to go on such a search.  Like I said, it's not my argument, it's just one that I understand.

Well, just before you told Paul "This is pretty simple." So I would imagine it should be easy for you to explain. So with all due respect, the fact that you won't (or can't) kinda proves Paul's point.

It doesn't PROVE anything, this isn't a court of law FFS.  None of this is anything but opinions.  If you agree, great.  If you don't, great.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

JP's vocabulary is pretty significant. I think the criticism is that MP has been repeating himself for a long time - not that he isn't innovating.

If someone thinks JP is repeating himself I would say there is some evidence of simplicity on View, but overall he is not recycling riffs or ideas to any major degree. Dream Theater sounds like Dream Theater, to be sure, but he is not playing the same riffs or solos over and over again.

Even Bach reused ideas here and there. The question is whether it is happening all the time over a period of decades. It is not in JP's case. The other thing to point out is that if MP is about 'energy and vibe' (paraphrasing here as I don't have the exact words from the interview), JP is the opposite. They don't approach their parts the same way and the function of their instruments is totally different. I don't think anyone needs to 'show growth' at 55 years of age but I do think Hef has a valid point - one that I have personally noticed and have heard other drummers agree with - that is backed up by Mike's own words.

[dparrott]

Boy has this thread gone sideways.  So no timeline updates I guess? 

[porcacultor]

if Dream Theater is so excited to have Portnoy back... if they feel like the circle is full and inspiration is going through the roof... why can't we?

How excited are they? It's been crickets since the announcement.

I'm not sure about the other guys, but on Instagram MP has been constantly referring to his return in a very excited way. No concrete news about the reunion, but for instance:

- When addressing Charlie Dominici's passing (RIP) he mentioned how they were texting when the news came out and how happy Charlie was that Mike was back in the band. Mike added that he too, was thrilled to "finally" be back in the band.

- When attending some sort of camp (or just taking an opportunity to sign drum heads), he made a point to make a video of him signing and drawing the Majesty symbol by hand (saying stuff like "I wonder if I remember how to do this... *draws it* it's just like riding a bike! Feels so good to do this again!").

- Regarding that same music camp, he made a point to show that they had to black out the "FORMER MEMBER OF [DREAM THEATER]" part to assert that he is, indeed, in Dream Theater.

Small stuff, mostly posted in Stories and thus lost to time (so I apologize if any of the quotes are not verbatim, but I assure you that the message was this). But he's definitely not quiet about it, even though he's on tour with the Winery Dogs and posting about other stuff.

[Dream Team]

I like A View quite a bit but I definitely hear recycled ideas from JP.

[Ben_Jamin]

If there's one thing we can be pretty confident in predicting, it's what the drums will be like in the DT16. Does anyone really expect it to be very different from what we can hear on the latest NMB records, or Transatlantic or SoA?

The best example I could give would be how his drumming was for LTE3 and JP's solo album.