DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[ReaPsTA]

What "easy opportunity" are you referring to?  They can't do WDADU for legal reasons, so there is no opportunity.

Are they really not allowed to re-record the songs? I thought when you signed label contracts they owned the recordings but the artist owned the songs. Otherwise DT wouldn't be able to release live recordings of the tracks. Or is their Mechanic contract that bad?

 

And as far as other pre-I&W unreleased songs, as far as I know, there isn't anything "unreleased."  They have put just about everything they can out there, through one means or another.

Agreed but there's something in particular about WDADU not having James on it that bugs me. The album also isn't on Spotify.

[Stadler]

What "easy opportunity" are you referring to?  They can't do WDADU for legal reasons, so there is no opportunity.  And as far as other pre-I&W unreleased songs, as far as I know, there isn't anything "unreleased."  They have put just about everything they can out there, through one means or another.

If you can't, I understand, but can you elaborate?   Unless the publisher blocks it for some (unknown) reason, they ought to be able to record their songs again.  Kiss, Maiden, Swift, Leppard, Squeeze, Mike + The Mechanics... they've all done it. 

[Setlist Scotty]

"Hugh Syme cover art confirmed"

It's not confirmed is it? Just speculation.
Of course it's 99% likely to be him.

confirmed, because of this here being present in the viewfinder: http://www.hughsyme.com/#651

I'm seeing a textured background in that link and some type along the top, but nothing else. Am I missing something or did he pull the artwork from that link?

Regarding the idea of re-recording some older songs in the studio, I don't think it's a bad idea for a bonus CD to their new one any more than them doing some covers like they did for BCaSL - maybe even putting a new spin on them. Most fans (or at least newer fans) may not be familiar with the old songs, but by including them on a bonus CD, it will heighten their awareness of these old tracks, not unlike them including Another Won and Raise the Knife in the Score setlist did the same for those songs. Yeah, several of the guys might not have an attachment to them, but if they were to be reworked to some degree, then they would. That said, it's a moot point since noxon said there are no re-recordings, but it's fun to imagine.

[lucasembarbosa]

We have a new cryptic video for FII, SFaM and SDOIT. The last slides with the initials and time stamps might be for new songs... We've had two in the last video and two in this also.

TA 09:32
ATC 07:35
IM 06:02
SG 10:05

https://www.facebook.com/TheDreamTheaterWorld/videos/1682404188813741/

[pg1067]

I know DT likely wouldn't do it but it can't be that hard to build click tracks, record songs that are already written, then have a mix/mastering engineer work their magic.

I can't comment on how "hard" or "easy" it might be to do this, but the fact is that WDADU is a 32-year old album that 60% of the band had nothing to do with.  Why would JLB or JR, much less MM (who hasn't even played half of the songs live) want to re-record the album?  JP has never expressed any interest in doing this, and I don't think JM has ever expressed any sort of interest in any nostalgia (except for his comments during the WDADRu band commentary about the way the band worked on songs and recordings back in the early days).

Oh, and by the way, WDADRu is a re-recording of the album.

Taylor Swift is re-recording her entire discography because of label issues DT can do one album. Could bring on guest musicians. Could re-release one of the songs with a music video celebrating the good old days. People these days love nostalgia and energetic/technical music. There will likely never be another Through the Fire and Flames, but you can catch the same energy.

I have no idea what the highlighted means, but that's not a DT song or album title.  I also have no idea what Taylor Swift might be doing, but she presumably has an army of guest musicians play on her albums.  Could DT do this?  Of course they could, but why would they want to.  WDADU is a part of their past, not their future.  Despite the fact that a relatively small number of folks on DTF talk about this as a realistic possibility, there is probably relatively little demand for this.

What "easy opportunity" are you referring to?  They can't do WDADU for legal reasons, so there is no opportunity.  And as far as other pre-I&W unreleased songs, as far as I know, there isn't anything "unreleased."  They have put just about everything they can out there, through one means or another. 

What reasons are those?  The copyrights are all owned and/or controlled by the then band members (or corporate entities that they own and control), and that's all that's needed.  The band doesn't own or control the original masters, but the original masters aren't needed to do a re-recording.  Unless they entered into a contract at some point that prohibits re-recording any or all of WDADU, I'm not sure what legal reason might prevent it.

What "easy opportunity" are you referring to?  They can't do WDADU for legal reasons, so there is no opportunity.

Are they really not allowed to re-record the songs? I thought when you signed label contracts they owned the recordings but the artist owned the songs. Otherwise DT wouldn't be able to release live recordings of the tracks. Or is their Mechanic contract that bad?

The sound recording copyrights are owned by MCA Records, which is now part of Universal Music Group.  I suspect that, if DT really wanted to do something with the original recordings (e.g., a remix or remaster), they could get a license from UMG (although who knows at what cost).  Of course, who knows if the original recordings even exist or what condition they're in?

If you can't, I understand, but can you elaborate?   Unless the publisher blocks it for some (unknown) reason, they ought to be able to record their songs again.

The publisher is a corporate entity that the band owns and controls, so that wouldn't be an issue (again, unless there are behind-the-scenes agreements that aren't public knowledge).

[Kyo]

Assuming that the last slide with the initials hints at new songs, it's time to start guessing song titles:

TA = Troll Arithmetic 09:32
ATC = Agitated Tentacle Clowns 07:35
IM = Incontinent Manatee 06:02
SG = Squid Gymnastics 10:05

[pg1067]

Assuming that the last slide with the initials hints at new songs, it's time to start guessing song titles:

TA = Troll Arithmetic 09:32
ATC = Agitated Tentacle Clowns 07:35
IM = Incontinent Manatee 06:02
SG = Squid Gymnastics 10:05

 

[lucasembarbosa]

Assuming that there will be three more videos like this with TOT/8V/SC, BC&SL/ADTOE/DT12 and TA/DoT/DT15, we could expect at least 6 new tracks...

So far, regarding the length of the songs, I like it!!

[fadetoblackdude7]

I wonder if they’re presenting the new song times to us in the order that they are on the album?

[bosk1]

What "easy opportunity" are you referring to?  They can't do WDADU for legal reasons, so there is no opportunity.  And as far as other pre-I&W unreleased songs, as far as I know, there isn't anything "unreleased."  They have put just about everything they can out there, through one means or another. 

What reasons are those?  The copyrights are all owned and/or controlled by the then band members (or corporate entities that they own and control), and that's all that's needed.  The band doesn't own or control the original masters, but the original masters aren't needed to do a re-recording.  Unless they entered into a contract at some point that prohibits re-recording any or all of WDADU, I'm not sure what legal reason might prevent it.

Don't know, other than what I have heard.  Obviously, I have not seen whatever contracts they originally signed.  But my impression from what I have heard is that the original label has the rights to that material, which precludes them from re-recording them.  I know of other bands that signed deals in the '70s and '80s that have said similar things, so I don't doubt that those kinds of deals exist (or, at least, that there are certain types of contracts in that industry that are, at the very least, interpreted as not allowing the artists to re-record that material later on, and that that interpretation at least has enough teeth that the bands don't want to waste time and money litigating whether or not it will hold up in court).  I also have heard in some of those situations where performing the songs live, and having those live versions show up on albums is not a problem.  Having that background, DT being in that situation does not surprise me. 

I might be mistaken about what DT have said about it, and I might be mistaken about other parts of this as well.  But that is my recollection of what was said and my understanding of where they are on that. 

[devieira73]

In the beginning of this new video, did anyone notice another possible cover at left? Is the DT logo at the top of that image?

[jonny108]

Yeah there's been a couple of similar images with the DT font on each video.  Could also be the single/s artwork also. 

[Setlist Scotty]

Assuming that the last slide with the initials hints at new songs, it's time to start guessing song titles:

TA = Troll Arithmetic 09:32
ATC = Agitated Tentacle Clowns 07:35
IM = Incontinent Manatee 06:02
SG = Squid Gymnastics 10:05

It's also time to start guessing why Kyo is going with a sea creatures theme with most of his guesses! 

 

[pg1067]

Don't know, other than what I have heard.  Obviously, I have not seen whatever contracts they originally signed.  But my impression from what I have heard is that the original label has the rights to that material, which precludes them from re-recording them.  I know of other bands that signed deals in the '70s and '80s that have said similar things, so I don't doubt that those kinds of deals exist (or, at least, that there are certain types of contracts in that industry that are, at the very least, interpreted as not allowing the artists to re-record that material later on, and that that interpretation at least has enough teeth that the bands don't want to waste time and money litigating whether or not it will hold up in court).  I also have heard in some of those situations where performing the songs live, and having those live versions show up on albums is not a problem.  Having that background, DT being in that situation does not surprise me. 

I might be mistaken about what DT have said about it, and I might be mistaken about other parts of this as well.  But that is my recollection of what was said and my understanding of where they are on that.

So...I don't have any firsthand knowledge about DT's contracts, but as I mentioned earlier, the copyrights for all of the WDADU songs are owned by the then-band members and/or business entities that they own and control.  Based on my experience, that gets us about 98% of the way to there being no legal restrictions against re-recording.  As far as '70s and '80s recording contracts, yes, they sometimes did give the record company not only ownership of the sound recording copyrights, but also musical composition copyrights.  These were not common.  Mechanic Records was a sub-label started by MCA, and MCA did not commonly do this.

As I also noted previously, DT did, for all intents and purposes, re-record WDADU.  That it was a live recording doesn't make any legal difference (again, in the absence of a really weird contractual provision).

All that being said, it's certainly possible that the band members don't fully understand the situation.  In fact, I suspect that, at most, only one of them has ever given much thought to it.  I doubt very much JLB, JR and MM have ever thought about it, and it doesn't strike me as the sort of thing that JM would think about.  And, at the end of the day (although you'd obviously know better than I), I don't think that any of them care even a little, tiny bit, much less enough to seek a definitive opinion about the legalities.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Assuming that the last slide with the initials hints at new songs, it's time to start guessing song titles:

TA = Troll Arithmetic 09:32
ATC = Agitated Tentacle Clowns 07:35
IM = Incontinent Manatee 06:02
SG = Squid Gymnastics 10:05

It's also time to start guessing why Kyo is going with a sea creatures theme with most of his guesses! 

 

[bosk1]

...the copyrights for all of the WDADU songs are owned by the then-band members and/or business entities that they own and control. 

...

Mechanic Records was a sub-label started by MCA, and MCA did not commonly do this.

Not sure what leads you to either of those conclusions.  But anyhow...

That it was a live recording doesn't make any legal difference (again, in the absence of a really weird contractual provision).

Again, I don't know what the contract said.  But I was told of a similar thing in the past with a '70s artist where fans in the '80s and '90s were clamoring for the band to re-record their first two albums, which were owned by a small label that had become defunct, which resulted in the albums long since being out of print.  He mentioned that they were not allowed to re-record the album in the studio.  But some of the songs had been played live and were on live releases.  So, again, I have firsthand knowledge of at least one artist where that was the case.  But again, he is a musician and not a lawyer.  That may have simply been an incorrect understanding on his part, and he wasn't inclined to test the waters, which I get. 

All that being said, it's certainly possible that the band members don't fully understand the situation.  In fact, I suspect that, at most, only one of them has ever given much thought to it.  I doubt very much JLB, JR and MM have ever thought about it, and it doesn't strike me as the sort of thing that JM would think about.  And, at the end of the day (although you'd obviously know better than I), I don't think that any of them care even a little, tiny bit, much less enough to seek a definitive opinion about the legalities.

Exactly.  See my previous point.  Record companies pulled a lot of shady stuff back then (and still do, I'm sure).  Some of it involved forcing bands with no leverage to sign away rights they would never sign away if they knew what they were doing or had already gotten big enough to have some clout.  Some of that involved just lying to bands about what they could and couldn't legally do.  And even if the label never did any of that kind of thing, band members just may not fully understand what they can or can't do, and won't bother to further explore the issue if it isn't an issue that is important to them.

[TAC]

  But I was told of a similar thing in the past with a '70s artist where fans in the '80s and '90s were clamoring for the band to re-record their first two albums, which were owned by a small label that had become defunct, which resulted in the albums long since being out of print.  He mentioned that they were not allowed to re-record the album in the studio. 

You might say they were struck down..

[bosk1]

By you, baby.

Excellent intuition, by the way.  Did you know that already, or did you just glean who I was talking about because...well, because it was me?

[TAC]

By you, baby.

Excellent intuition, by the way.  Did you know that already, or did you just glean who I was talking about because...well, because it was me?

Well, both kind of. I mean it's not uncommon for you to cite Y&T in any conversation, but I'm well aware that they had two albums as Yesterday & Today before they became Y&T. I was not aware of any contracts.

I had Struck Down on 8-track when I was a kid.


I haven't followed them very closely but how much of those two albums have been represented on a live release throughout the years? I know early on they played 25 Hours A Day on the Live At The Civic video.

[bosk1]

By you, baby.

Excellent intuition, by the way.  Did you know that already, or did you just glean who I was talking about because...well, because it was me?

Well, both kind of. I mean it's not uncommon for you to cite Y&T in any conversation, but I'm well aware that they had two albums as Yesterday & Today before they became Y&T. I was not aware of any contracts.

I had Struck Down on 8-track when I was a kid.


I haven't followed them very closely but how much of those two albums have been represented on a live release throughout the years? I know early on they played 25 Hours A Day on the Live At The Civic video.

There was a time (late '80s to mid '90s) when I would have offered you a decent chunk of change for that 8-track.

25 Hours was on Open Fire Live, not the SF Civic video.  Here is the track listing from that:
1      Hang 'Em High
2      Dirty Girl
3      Lipstick And Leather
4      Don't Stop Runnin'
5      Rescue Me
6      Mean Streak
7      Rock & Roll's Gonna Save The World
8      Guitar Solo
9      Hell Or High Water
10      Forever

(which I probably could have done from memory, since I watched that thing relentlessly)  Since that was a headlining show, there were obviously more songs played, but I have no idea what they were.  Only those 10 appear on the actual release.

The only other ones are Struck Down (song) and Beautiful Dreamer, which were on Yesterday & Today Live.  I think that's it.  They also re-recorded I'm Lost on Musically Incorrect, and that is where the discussion came up that I was referring to above, because they had finally managed to buy back the rights to those first two albums, which they then re-released.   

[Cool Chris]

WDADU is a part of their past, not their future. 

Definitely. Though being part of history doesn't mean those songs need to be boxed away in a dusty old warehouse along with the ark of the covenant.

... by including them on a bonus CD, it will heighten their awareness of these old tracks, not unlike them including Another Won and Raise the Knife in the Score setlist did the same for those songs.

That would be a great idea. That was a ballsy call on that Score set. DT was my favorite band at the time, and I hadn't heard either of those songs. I was not active on these forums and never read newsgroups/magazines/fan club stuff, so I really only knew the band via official releases and eventually DVD commentaries.

[TAC]

25 Hours was on Open Fire Live, not the SF Civic video.   

OK, but that was pretty much the same year/time period, no? Anyway, I think that's why I confused the two.

There was a time (late '80s to mid '90s) when I would have offered you a decent chunk of change for that 8-track.

I bought it at a, well I wouldn't call it a flea market, but more of a county fair at a used record booth. I was thrilled to find it. I was probably 16 or 17 when I saw it.

[Max Kuehnau]

"Hugh Syme cover art confirmed"

It's not confirmed is it? Just speculation.
Of course it's 99% likely to be him.

confirmed, because of this here being present in the viewfinder: http://www.hughsyme.com/#651

I'm seeing a textured background in that link and some type along the top, but nothing else. Am I missing something or did he pull the artwork from that link?

Regarding the idea of re-recording some older songs in the studio, I don't think it's a bad idea for a bonus CD to their new one any more than them doing some covers like they did for BCaSL - maybe even putting a new spin on them. Most fans (or at least newer fans) may not be familiar with the old songs, but by including them on a bonus CD, it will heighten their awareness of these old tracks, not unlike them including Another Won and Raise the Knife in the Score setlist did the same for those songs. Yeah, several of the guys might not have an attachment to them, but if they were to be reworked to some degree, then they would. That said, it's a moot point since noxon said there are no re-recordings, but it's fun to imagine.

I messaged you about it, Scotty. You'll see what we found and it will most likely make sense to you.

[Kotowboy]

I hope DT15 isn't another BC&SL "Four Epics and two shorter songs".

I get bored of albums with few tracks very quickly.

I hope it's at least nine individual tracks again like ADTOE, DT12 and D/T

[Stadler]

Assuming that there will be three more videos like this with TOT/8V/SC, BC&SL/ADTOE/DT12 and TA/DoT/DT15, we could expect at least 6 new tracks...

So far, regarding the length of the songs, I like it!!

AND

I wonder if they’re presenting the new song times to us in the order that they are on the album?

No offense to either of you, but that's a pet peeve of mine.  What do song lengths have to do with anything other than, well, song lengths?   You get nothing from that other than, well, song lengths.   I guess you get SOME indication of how many songs are on the album, but in terms of anything tangible, "Yesterday" (2:07) and "Revolution 9" (8:13), nuff said. 

I remember when Flying Colors came out and they published the titles and times and everyone went bat-shit crazy about how "great" Infinite Fire and Blue Ocean were, WITHOUT HAVING HEARD THEM, simply because they were the two longest songs on the record.   For my money, FC is one of the better albums Mike has done since leaving DT, and those two don't even crack the top five songs of the record.  MAYBE Infinte Fire comes in at five. 

[TAC]

Chill out old man. People are just getting over excited.

Besides, who would go bat shit crazy over anything Flying Colors related??

[Lonk]

I hope DT15 isn't another BC&SL "Four Epics and two shorter songs".

I get bored of albums with few tracks very quickly.

I hope it's at least nine individual tracks again like ADTOE, DT12 and D/T

If the trend continues with this videos, I'm assuming we will get at least 8-10 tracks.

If those are really length/abbreviations for new songs (not reason to believe they aren't), and guessing it won't be a double disc, we have about 33 minutes of music in 4 songs. Averaging the same length, 8 songs would put it at 66 minutes. 10 songs would push it over the 80 minute mark, so maybe a few songs on the 5-8 minute range. We'll see 

[Stadler]

Chill out old man. People are just getting over excited.

Besides, who would go bat shit crazy over anything Flying Colors related??

Get off my lawn! Damn kids. 

[Enigmachine]

No offense to either of you, but that's a pet peeve of mine.  What do song lengths have to do with anything other than, well, song lengths?   You get nothing from that other than, well, song lengths.   I guess you get SOME indication of how many songs are on the album, but in terms of anything tangible, "Yesterday" (2:07) and "Revolution 9" (8:13), nuff said. 

I remember when Flying Colors came out and they published the titles and times and everyone went bat-shit crazy about how "great" Infinite Fire and Blue Ocean were, WITHOUT HAVING HEARD THEM, simply because they were the two longest songs on the record.   For my money, FC is one of the better albums Mike has done since leaving DT, and those two don't even crack the top five songs of the record.  MAYBE Infinte Fire comes in at five.

Well I've said this before, but DT are very clearly a band with very effective longer tracks. Even probably the most disputed of the big epics, Illumination Theory, still seems to be considered one of the better songs by the band. I also think many would agree that their hit rate is higher with songs that are over the 10 minute mark than below, or at least that they generally have higher highs. You might not feel that way and there are of course longer songs that are looked upon with a bit less enthusiasm, but I think fans generally love it when the band go more into more sprawling and progressive structures. Transitions into other songs aside, there's only so much a band can do (albeit still a lot) in 5 minutes as opposed to being given the breathing room and scope of 10. Sure, you could perhaps extend that content into multiple songs, but then it'd lack that same adventurious quality that a longer song has, with its release of musical tension taking much longer to resolve, giving it that more epic quality.

[the_silent_man]

^ Agreed.
For me, personally, DT's strengths lie in longer, epic songs. They are almost always the better ones on any given album.
On the last few releases I have missed these longer songs and whilst the last album was a strong one, it still feels "DT-lite" to me in some regards with some songs that would have benefited from being longer.
Obviously this is not always the case and it has to be balanced in terms of lengths.

So far, if these are indeed the track lengths, then colour me happy. I hope it continues when and we'll get another few 9/10 minute songs on the next few updates.

[Sebastián Pratesi]

"Hugh Syme cover art confirmed"

It's not confirmed is it? Just speculation.
Of course it's 99% likely to be him.

confirmed, because of this here being present in the viewfinder: http://www.hughsyme.com/#651

I'm seeing a textured background in that link and some type along the top, but nothing else. Am I missing something or did he pull the artwork from that link?

He pulled it. It was there a few days ago. It was an edit of this picture of The Betsy Orb: https://www.reddit.com/r/whatisthisthing/comments/6rvcp8/giant_swiss_ball_between_two_buildings_in_miami

[geeeemo]

^ Agreed.
For me, personally, DT's strengths lie in longer, epic songs. They are almost always the better ones on any given album.
On the last few releases I have missed these longer songs and whilst the last album was a strong one, it still feels "DT-lite" to me in some regards with some songs that would have benefited from being longer.
Obviously this is not always the case and it has to be balanced in terms of lengths.

So far, if these are indeed the track lengths, then colour me happy. I hope it continues when and we'll get another few 9/10 minute songs on the next few updates.

It seems that the "epics" are generally the favorites. ACOS, 8Varium, LtL, ItNoG, Home, LitS, ItPoE, Nightmare, TCoT, BAI, IT, AWE. The 12 step songs. I have an Epics playlist. It's the best one for me.
I hope for a mondo epic on DT15. 

[pg1067]

...the copyrights for all of the WDADU songs are owned by the then-band members and/or business entities that they own and control. 

...

Mechanic Records was a sub-label started by MCA, and MCA did not commonly do this.

Not sure what leads you to either of those conclusions.  But anyhow...

With respect to the ownership of the copyrights, anyone can run searches on the U.S. Copyright Office's website, which I did, and those searches indicate that the musical composition copyrights are owned as indicated.  The only way that's not true is if there have been unrecorded transfers of the ownership, which is unlikely.

I'm not sure which of the two statements about MCA you're questioning.  Mechanic Records being a sub-label of MCA is public knowledge and easily verified through any number of online sources.  The other statement is more based on what I know about UMG through having represented it, but MCA was folded into UMG only a couple years after I graduated law school, so I'll admit there's no real basis for that statement as it relates to MCA.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Re: Song lengths

I like knowing them for two reasons:
1) because I'm a nerd who likes numbers & statistics
2) because it gives a rough idea of how the album will be paced

[wolfking]

I don't see the harm in knowing the tracklist beforehand.  I mean sure it doesn't tell you anything but that, but I always enjoy finding out little bits of tidbits like that in the lead up to an album.