Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread

[krands85]

What I'm most interested in is season 8 in 4K - mainly so I can see episode 3 properly.

[MirrorMask]

I'm unsure about a rewatch. One one hand, now that the dust (ash from King's Landing?) has settled, I could enjoy it with a free mind and without expectations, and concentrate on the visual aspects which are stunning, and maybe try and concentrate on the story without the costant tension of not knowing what happens next.

On the other hand, the story is so nonsense that I'm afraid that even a rewatch will make me realize better the 546 things that make no sense, and other 310 that I didn't notice the first time.

But at least the battle of Winterfell and the burning of King's Landing should be enjoyable if you focus just on the visual spectacle.

[Chino]

My gripe with watching the show again is going to be all the characters and arcs that start and the realization that they go absolutely nowhere the last time we see them.

[cramx3]

My gripe with watching the show again is going to be all the characters and arcs that start and the realization that they go absolutely nowhere the last time we see them.

I have no plans on rewatching anytime soon.  I need to wait until I forget things and go back wtih a fresh mind.  It worked wonders for Lost watching the end again since I forgot all the details and was able to enjoy the final season more than when I watched it in real time. 

[faizoff]

I rewatched the entire season right after the finale and I still enjoyed it. Apart from the super rushed timelines I have no real issue with the arcs of any characters, I do wish some of the things were probably executed differently like Sapochnik's idea of killing off a ton of characters like Jorah in the first few mins of Battle of Winterfell, other than that I'm ok with season 8. I've made my peace with it.

It's unfortunate it didn't go out on a high note like Breaking Bad which will forever be my number 1 show and the blueprint on how to properly end things. But to end GOT without rushing the story I honestly think it would've taken another 3 seasons minimum. If you watch the documentary 'The Last Watch' pretty much everyone from the producers to the production manager and many others were pretty much done with the show this last season. They were physically and mentally done.

In any case, it was a missed opportunity but I don't begrudge following the show for so long and accept the bitter sweet ending.

[KevShmev]

Yep, most of the character arcs ended just fine.

I wish Daenerys' ending had been better; I had no problem with her burning down King's Landing, as she had threatened to do that before and it was not the sudden turn many think it was, but her death scene was underwhelming. 

And while we can quibble with the endings the individual Starks got, House Stark ultimately winning the Game of Thrones was totally the right thing. 

The Red Woman, The Hound and The Mountain, Cersei, Jaime, Jorah, Theon, Brienne, Sansa and Tyrion all got great endings.  And while many didn't like it, I would argue that Jon got a great ending as well, as he saved the seven kingdoms from the mad queen and then ended up going to live with the wildlings where he was always the happiest.  Arya's ending was a bit strange, going west to explore, but the moment where she realized she wanted to live instead of killing Cersei and dying herself, before thanking The Hound, was awesome.

Bran ending up the rule of the six kingdoms is still kind of an eye-roller, but when you consider that the pilot ended with him being pushed out of a window, the series then ending with him on the throne is kind of sweet justice, even if the path there was rather odd for him.  However, one big takeaway for me is that being the ruler of the seven (now six) kingdoms ultimately doesn't mean a lot.  Think of the rulers we saw throughout the series. Robert was the king for only, what, 6-7 episodes and was murdered by his own wife.  Joffrey was a little shitbag whom no one liked or respected.  Tommen was a nice kid, but too young to command much respect and was easily to manipulate. Cersei was the ruler most of the last two seasons, but was hated by nearly everyone.  Danny was the ruler for like 45 seconds before being killed.  And then Bran ended up the ruler at the end after Drogon destroyed the actual throne, and in a clear demonstration of how little being the king/queen really meant, despite being a member of the family that won the Game of Thrones, Bran was not even featured in the final montage that ended the series.

[faizoff]

Speaking of that ending montage, it gives me goosebumps every time I watch it or listen to that track. I know for sure I will get very emotional when that score gets played when seeing Ramin Djwadi live in a few months. Despite how the ending was paced, that last bit with the Starks was great to see.

[MirrorMask]

And while many didn't like it, I would argue that Jon got a great ending as well, as he saved the seven kingdoms from the mad queen and then ended up going to live with the wildlings where he was always the happiest. 

I wish he had more control over it - and that his lineage meant something, anything.

He should have taken up the throne, and as his first act he should have abolished the hereditary monarchy, being the one to propose an elective one - rather than Tyrion who, for the record, was supposed to be on trial and not allowed to speak  and then he should have pissed off with the wildlings.

Some random speech about how the war for the throne has destroyed the kingdom and generated blood feuds that would go on forever and anyway almost anybody's dead bla bla bla could have sold the idea somehow I guess.

And yeah, the music over the Stark montage was awesome, Djwadi is amazing and I hope he becomes an household name for scores in the future 

[ariich]

My gripe with watching the show again is going to be all the characters and arcs that start and the realization that they go absolutely nowhere the last time we see them.

Yeah I don't really have any interest in watching it again sadly, for exactly that reason. I'd be watching all these intriguing character and narrative arcs in the knowledge that they don't end up going anywhere interesting (or anywhere at all in some cases).

[MirrorMask]

For a rewatch - just pretend that it's the Olenna Tyrell show, and quit when she dies.

Only downside is missing the eye candy and badassery that is the following episode, with Drogon attacking the Lannister army, but this way you spare yourself the Hollywood clichès fest that is Beyond the Wall, and the trainwreck of season 8 

[KevShmev]

Considering Season 8 was not a trainwreck, that post makes no sense whatsoever.

[The Walrus]

Considering Season 8 was not a trainwreck, that post makes no sense whatsoever.

Makes plenty of sense. I might not use the word trainwreck or go that far, but I have tons of conflicting feelings on season 8, and disappointment is chief among them.

[KevShmev]

I have been consistent that I think Season 8 was not as great as it could have been, and there are certain things I wish would have been done better, but calling a trainwreck is such ridiculous hyperbole that it's almost funny.  But hey, that is the internet for ya.

Edit: the word "trainwreck" implies that everything went wrong.  It did not.  Like I said, a few things could have been done better, but a lot went right and many characters arcs ended perfectly. 

Mirror Mask, to address your point from earlier:

Regarding Jon's lineage, it did mean something. Danny finding out about it was another blow to her slowly-devolving state of mind.  Once she decided to help the North fight the Night King, so much went wrong for her, and finding out that she was not the true living heir to the throne was another brick in the wall, so to speak.

[MirrorMask]

If trainwreck is too much, I'll switch from a train to a zeppelin, the Hindenburg: sure, Game of Thrones was a technological and unparalleled marvel, but right now all I can think about is how it crashed and burned upon landing 

And yes, Jon's lineage did meant something (negative) for Dany, but from the very issue that George Martin used to see if D&D were "worthy" of adapting Game of Thrones (he asked them who was Jon's mother), I expected something more than "just another reason to make Dany snap".

[XJDenton]

many characters arcs ended perfectly.   

I can think of one or two: Brienne and possibly Sansa. Every other arc had some severe problems in my view. In any case, you'd expect a few survivors in a train wreck.

[lordxizor]

Train wreck is a little strong for my opinion, but disappointing and interest killing is fair. I have no interest in ever rewatching the series because of the ending.

[ariich]

Train wreck is a little strong for my opinion, but disappointing and interest killing is fair. I have no interest in ever rewatching the series because of the ending.

I agree. I didn't find it a train wreck and I didn't hate it. I just didn't find it at all interesting or satisfying.

I can think of one or two: Brienne and possibly Sansa. Every other arc had some severe problems in my view.

Sansa's was good. Brienne's was ok but a bit unsatisfying. I thought Dany's arc was one of the few that worked well despite what people claim about it being rushed. The rest all felt pretty meh or just didn't hang together well for me (or in some cases, I outright disliked).

[XJDenton]

I could see where they wanted to go with Dany's arc but her fall from grace needed, like, 2 more seasons to be in any way natural. The problem I had with Brienne's arc were directly tied in with how shittily Jaime's arc was handled at the end so I place most of the blame there.

[ariich]

I could see where they wanted to go with Dany's arc but her fall from grace needed, like, 2 more seasons to be in any way natural.

I don't agree, but then I've disliked how power-hungry and vindictive she is for a few seasons already so it felt completely natural to me.

[XJDenton]

I agree she was power-hungry and vindictive, but she was also someone who was heavily characterized as someone who wanted to protect the common folk and the oppressed. Even in season 7 she was saying she had no desire to be "Queen of the Ashes" and then suddenly, 6 episodes later she was burning children to death. The end point was consistent with her portrayal in earlier seasons but the shift from "flawed but ultimately well intentioned queen" to "burn them all" was in my opinion too abrupt.

As a point of comparison, Walter White's flaws such as pride and willingness to kill if pushed were telegraphed early, but it still took 4 seasons to go from the "Chemistry teacher with a dark streak" to the Heisenberg that was happy to feed a kid ricin to achieve his goals. 

[KevShmev]

While true about saying she didn't want to be the "Queen of the Ashes," I believe it was that very same conversation where Daenerys earlier said that he was going to fly her dragons to King's Landing and take it down, before Tyrion basically talked her out of it.  While I think her "turn" shouldn't have happened so close to the end (I agree that the aftermath of that should have been covered in at least one season), it was telegraphed quite well. 

I am surprised someone wouldn't like the way Brienne's arc ended.  Her getting knighted was one of the highlights of the final season (if you didn't get a nice feeling when she smiled at the end of that scene, you are dead inside ), and then her final scene, with her writing Jaime's entry in the Book, was so good.  I get why some didn't like the end to Jaime's, with his returning to King's Landing to be with Cersei, but I think it fit the nature of his character well, and he had redeemed himself pretty well.  I went from "man, I cannot wait for this guy to die" in the first two seasons to really liking him by the later seasons. 

[Adami]

It felt like there were 2-3 seasons skipped. The endings probably work, but they need to get there naturally, instead of just skipping there.

Six Feet Under had one of the best endings I've ever seen. But if you put that exact ending at the end of season 3, it just makes no sense and feels terribly out of place.

Continuum had a similar problem. Ending made perfect sense but felt out of place and rushed. Big difference was that Continuum was cancelled and they were forced to rush to the ending. GoT people just seemed to want to move on and skipped to the ending.

[MirrorMask]

As a point of comparison, Walter White's flaws such as pride and willingness to kill if pushed were telegraphed early, but it still took 4 seasons to go from the "Chemistry teacher with a dark streak" to the Heisenberg that was happy to feed a kid ricin to achieve his goals.

Another brilliant example of Breaking Bad's strong writing is Walt doing something completely and utterly stupid, but in character: when Gael was killed and Hank thought he was Heisenberg, Walt couldn't keep his trap shut and hinted that Gael was just an imitator, because he was so stubborn and proud that he couldn't allow for anyone else to get credit for "Heisenberg". It was something completely stupid (I was almost yelling at the screen "shut up! shut up you idiot, shut up!", but absoutely in character for Walter White.

The whole Dany thing, instead.... the more I think of it the more it leaves me puzzled.

I accept her being ruthless and having her selective violence becoming less selective, but the events of the penultimate episode are weird.

Dany said something about "Cersei thinks our mercy is a weakness", implying that she might not care for the people in the Red Keep.
Varys says as much to Jon ("We know what she's about to do"), so Tyrion begs with her to give a chance of surrender to the city, the infamous ringing of the bells.
Tyrion then talks to Jaimie and he looks damn sure that the city will fall - "No, Cersei will lose", "There won't be an Iron Fleet much longer", how is he so sure? Did Dany told him her plan? if so, that would mean that Dany said "I'm gonna destroy the Iron Fleet attacking from above, then I'm gonna take out all the scorpions and open the gates for my army", which was already a victory plan with minimal civilian casualties, did she add "then I guess I'm gonna burn them all"? or Tyrion just figured that the  dragon was invicible anyway, something that for the record negates the whole "Oh no, Euron killed a dragon, there are scorpions, Dany can't use freely Drogon anymore!" thing?

We then come to the battle: Dany pulls out her perfect plan, in 10 minutes or so destroys the fleet and the walls, the city falls, and then she just snaps, with the official explanation coming from the authors being "she saw the Red Keep and she thought of all her family has lost". She then goes street to street to methodically destroy and burn everything, giving all the time in the world to Cersei to escape, which she almost did. The equivalent, in case the White House is occupied by a tyrant, of needlessly carpet bombing the city of Washington while the White House sits there alone in a park.

She could have flown to the Red Keep and burn it regardless of the civilians inside, with maybe some wildfire caches exploding accidentally and creating more damage - and then when confronted she could have angrily said she didn't care, proving she was losing her compassion. But apparently some nuance wasn't enough so she had to needlessly destroy the city AND have the dragon behind her to give the impression of her being a demon with wings AND a huge red Targaryen banner to call back nazism AND her speech about conquering the entire world like she never, ever, ever said she'd want to do.

[KevShmev]

Let me preface this by saying that this is not a defense of her decision to burn down King's Landing.

Now, while it is easy to say that she should have just flown to the Red Keep and taken down Cersei, I think she wanted to make sure Cersei would have no escape and die. By taking down the capital first, Cersei had nowhere to escape (Dany was unaware of the boat Tyrion had set up for Cersei and Jaime to escape in).  Had she gone straight for the Red Keep, Cersie could have possibly slipped out and into the city and somehow gotten away while Drogon was finishing off the Red Keep.  Plus, by forcing Cersei to see the capital being burned down to the ground, she defeated her mentally first before killing her physically when Drogon caused the Red Keep to collapse on Cersie (and Jaime) and kill her.  I definitely think that was a big part of it, especially after Cersei had Dany's best friend's head chopped off right in front of her.  She wanted Cersei to suffer first instead of giving her a quick death.

That is why I think Cersei's death was handled well.  Sure, seeing Arya cut her throat would have been sweet, but Cersie went out mentally defeated, which was fitting for a villain who always prided herself (right or wrong) as being a thinker and strategist rather than a fighter. 

I get that some may not agree.

[MirrorMask]

Nah, while I still think that it's not the brightest idea to destroy all the city leaving the Red Keep for last, I can get behind the reasoning of "Look Cersei, your kingdom comes crashing down in flames, there's no escape".

Counter argument just for the sake of imagining scenes that didn't happen: it would have been still quite a blow if, with the Iron Fleet burning in the distance and the walls crumbling down, Cersei would have seen the dragon emerge from the smoke of the walls and then fly closer... and closer.... and closer.... and realizing that yes, it's coming for HER. And while this wasn't shown, she could have thought "I'm going down but the bitch is crazy, she will never be loved after this, I've lost but so did she". It could have been an actual reply to Qyburn, "Your grace, please, let's run away and keep you safe, the war is lost". "Lost? she's burning down the city. People will hate her for this. She lost too, wether she realizes it or not".

Also let's consider that King's Landing was her ancestral seat of rule - the Allies destroyed all of Berlin in WWII because they didn't care for Hitler, but I don't think that the crusaders would have considered methodically destroying Jerusalem brick by brick an acceptable option, since the whole purpouse was to win it back from the infidels. She might have wanted SOMETHING to rule upon. She probably didn't like the city plan and wanted to rebuild it anew since she was at it 

[soupytwist]

It's crazy to think after all the build up on this show, both character and story wise - they basically wrapped it in 4 episodes (I consider the first 2 episodes of Season 8 as still building up).   

[MirrorMask]

I see it more as seven seasons with three bonus episodes. Tackle the first three at the end of Season 7, and you have a 10 episodes regular season that ends the White Walker threat. The three other episodes solve the Dany / Cersei thing.

[The Walrus]

Lindsay Ellis recently put up a video analyzing Game of Thrones. She's incredibly good at making longform video essays and after watching this I started binging her channel. Well worth a watch if you have the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hys_m3BPTS8

[KevShmev]

Despite some thinking he hated it, looks like Conleth Hill didn't after all... https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/game-of-thrones-actor-blames-the-media-for-the-poor-response-to-its-final-season-183500780.html

And while I do not put a ton of stock into awards show, it was awesome to see it received a record number Emmy nominations for Season 8. Take that, haters.

[The Walrus]

Do they give Emmys for Biggest Rush To Finale?

[ariich]

And while I do not put a ton of stock into awards show, it was awesome to see it received a record number Emmy nominations for Season 8. Take that, haters.

Well, almost all of them are either "technical" awards or those covering music, acting or directing, all of which were praised even by people who thought the writing was crap. So the number of awards is irrelevant from that perspective.

More relevant is the fact that like previous years, it still got nominated for Outstanding Drama Series and the finale for Outstanding Writing for a Drama Series.

[Chino]

Despite some thinking he hated it, looks like Conleth Hill didn't after all... https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/game-of-thrones-actor-blames-the-media-for-the-poor-response-to-its-final-season-183500780.html

And while I do not put a ton of stock into awards show, it was awesome to see it received a record number Emmy nominations for Season 8. Take that, haters.

“If it comes to an end, it’s gonna p*** you off no matter that because it’s the end." 

I don't remember people being pissed when Breaking Bad wrapped up.

[KevShmev]

Well, almost all of them are either "technical" awards or those covering music, acting or directing, all of which were praised even by people who thought the writing was crap. So the number of awards is irrelevant from that perspective.

More relevant is the fact that like previous years, it still got nominated for Outstanding Drama Series and the finale for Outstanding Writing for a Drama Series.

For sure. I hope it wins both.

“If it comes to an end, it’s gonna p*** you off no matter that because it’s the end." 

I don't remember people being pissed when Breaking Bad wrapped up.

That's because the ending to Breaking Bad was so awesome that only those who are certifiable wouldn't have liked it.

In the case of Game of Thrones, the ending were merely "good" overall, not awesome, plus with a million arcs to wrap it up, it was literally impossible to make everyone happy since everyone had different ideas of how each character's story should end.

[The Walrus]

Wouldn't have been impossible had they not rushed the bejesus out of it.

[Grappler]

Despite some thinking he hated it, looks like Conleth Hill didn't after all... https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/game-of-thrones-actor-blames-the-media-for-the-poor-response-to-its-final-season-183500780.html

And while I do not put a ton of stock into awards show, it was awesome to see it received a record number Emmy nominations for Season 8. Take that, haters.

“If it comes to an end, it’s gonna p*** you off no matter that because it’s the end." 

I don't remember people being pissed when Breaking Bad wrapped up.

I think he's right In this instance.  I've felt that people are mad because it didn't come to an end in THEIR way.  The showrunners and writers were in a rock and a hard place.  No matter what they did, people would hate it because it wasn't how they envisioned the show ending.