SFAM vs. Operation: Mindcrime

[The Dark Master]

Why should that matter? Anyone can have an opinion on an album regardless of if they grew up with it or not.

Well since Mindcrime came out in my childhood, and Scenes came out in my adolescence, I technically did grow up with both.  Would that actually add any validity to my argument?  I don't think that should really matter.....

[emindead]

SFAM is my favourite album of all time. I tried to get into other concept albums. My ears started to listen to O:M. My ears were not pleased with that they heard.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

SFAM is my favourite album of all time. I tried to get into other concept albums. My ears started to listen to O:M. My ears were not pleased with that they heard.

But, were you?

[The King in Crimson]

O:M easily.

SFAM has a couple of parts that, musically and lyrically, don't work well. O:M works very well all the way through. Plus, it has "Suite Sister Mary."

[dongringo]

O:M for me too.

Other excellent concept albums include:

Fate's Warning - A Pleasant Shade of Gray
Circus Maximus - Isolate
Vanden Plas - The Seraphic Clockwork

[Phantasmatron]

Vanden Plas - The Seraphic Clockwork

Wow.  Props for mentioning APSOG, but I'm surprised to see The Seraphic Clockwork mentioned as one of the best concept albums.

I found it bland.  Not terrible, but lyrically too complex to do justice to its story in just a few songs and musically kind of dry.  What did you hear that I didn't?

[dongringo]

I guess it just hits me in a different way than it does you. All the human senses are that way actually. People hear, see, taste, smell, and feel differently. 

[Progmetty]

Definetly SFAM.
O:M live DVD VS. SFAM live DVD?
Just gives me a chance to say I thought the acting on stage during songs thing in O:M was so fuckin lame it makes Queen Latifa look good, I just recently saw it and man there was a couple times I had to look away.

[Tomislav95]

Definetly SFAM.
O:M live DVD VS. SFAM live DVD?
Just gives me a chance to say I thought the acting on stage during songs thing in O:M was so fuckin lame it makes Queen Latifa look good, I just recently saw it and man there was a couple times I had to look away.

Yes, SFAM live DVD kick ass 

[eric42434224]

Definetly SFAM.
O:M live DVD VS. SFAM live DVD?
Just gives me a chance to say I thought the acting on stage during songs thing in O:M was so fuckin lame it makes Queen Latifa look good, I just recently saw it and man there was a couple times I had to look away.

There was acting in Operation Livecrime?  It was recorded on the Empire tour.
When comparing the live performances, you should use the original one.

[hefdaddy42]

Vanden Plas - The Seraphic Clockwork

Wow.  Props for mentioning APSOG, but I'm surprised to see The Seraphic Clockwork mentioned as one of the best concept albums.

I found it bland.  Not terrible, but lyrically too complex to do justice to its story in just a few songs and musically kind of dry.  What did you hear that I didn't?

A friend of mine tried to get me into that one, but I had a similar reaction as you, Phantasmatron.  It just didn't work for me, at all.

[Samsara]

bosker,

On a DT site, OF COURSE SFAM is going to win. Just like on a QR site, Mindcrime is going to win. This thread, although a very valid discussion, is skewed for SFAM to win, just based on the fact that it is posted HERE. lol.

Frankly, back in the mid-late 1990s, Queensryche was my favorite band, DT was my #2. So when SFAM came out, I was all over it, and couldn't wait to hear it. But frankly, it falls flat, and I think the album as a whole is EXTREMELY overrated. It is good, but it isn't (to my ears) the great record so may here think it is.

The concept is ok, not very imaginative, but it's ok. Mindcrime's tale of social revolution and manipulation was much more exciting and compelling.

Sonically, SFAM is more adventurous, but Mindcrime's music was much more dramatic and flowed better.

But again, on DTF, SFAM is always going to win. On any QR board, Mindcrime will win.

SFAM, to this fan, was a good concept album that was cool at the time, but doesn't really stand the test of time for me. Unlike The Wall, Mindcrime, etc.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Mindcrime's tale of social revolution and manipulation was much more exciting and compelling.

Sonically, SFAM is more adventurous, but Mindcrime's music was much more dramatic and flowed better.

Among others, these two points specifically, are right on.

[bosk1]

On a DT site, OF COURSE SFAM is going to win. Just like on a QR site, Mindcrime is going to win. This thread, although a very valid discussion, is skewed for SFAM to win, just based on the fact that it is posted HERE. lol.

Of course.  See this quote:

And, BTW, this poll isn't meant to "prove" anything.  Given that this is in the DT section on the DT forum, I have little doubt SFAM will most likely stay ahead.  But I'm still curious about how they stack up to fans here and some of the reasons why.

[Samsara]

Boskarooni,

I know, I know.   I saw you had it covered. I just don't think either album gets a fair shake on the individual band boards. The rock/metal community at large would be the better judge.

And I'm pretty sure (based on nothing but observation), that as a whole, the rock/metal community considers Mindcrime one of the absolute finest conceptual works of all time (in the same breath as Tommy and The Wall), whereas SFAM is just "a good concept record by Dream THeater, one of their finest albums."

p.s. Coz - missed your post. Thanks my man.

[bosk1]

I just don't think either album gets a fair shake on the individual band boards. The rock/metal community at large would be the better judge.

Yeah, but the problem is that true "progressive metal" or "progressive rock" is such a relatively small subgenre that a much of the rock/metal community at large either has their eyes glaze over or goes into seizures if you play them a song with more than 3 chords that lasts more than 3 1/2 minutes.    Yes, I'm grossly exaggerating, of course.  But still, the reality is that nothing DT does is going to get a fair shake by the rock/metal community at large. 

[Samsara]

Boskerman,

I disagree. I think Dream Theater has upped its profile and is highly respected among the general rock/metal community, sub-genres aside. People remember Dream Theater for Pull Me Under, and with the exposure they've gotten the past six years, that crowd has re-awoken and taken note.

DT's reputation has never been better (Portnoy drama aside).

That said, I do hear partially what you are saying. DT is hamstrung by the fact the songs are grossly inflated in terms of length. That said, SFAM is pretty accessible, overall. Strange Deja Vu, The Spirit Carries On, the radio edit of Home, etc.

Anyway, give the mainstream folks (which you and I still fall into, depending on what we are listening to) a little credit. lol. I think if a song is six or seven minutes, you'll still grab attention if the song itself is good.

But when you go 10+, it gets a little old some times.

Anyway, what were we talking about again? I went over 3.5 minutes. I forget...

[Nekov]

I disagree. I think Dream Theater has upped its profile and is highly respected among the general rock/metal community, sub-genres aside. People remember Dream Theater for Pull Me Under, and with the exposure they've gotten the past six years, that crowd has re-awoken and taken note.

True, but it only started happening after the release of Train of Thought which is the point where DT started inclining more to the metal side and loosing some of the prog.

[Samsara]

I disagree. I think Dream Theater has upped its profile and is highly respected among the general rock/metal community, sub-genres aside. People remember Dream Theater for Pull Me Under, and with the exposure they've gotten the past six years, that crowd has re-awoken and taken note.

True, but it only started happening after the release of Train of Thought which is the point where DT started inclining more to the metal side and loosing some of the prog.

Not at all. SFAM got the ball rolling. It advanced from there. Yes, there was a huge push upward after ToT, but there was also a bump with SFAM. Concept albums in 1999 weren't a dime-a-dozen like they are now. In 1999, DT got some traction because they did one.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Another aspect too consider....  Back in the 80's Metal was all about big hair, spandex (can someone PLEASE purge this from my brain), make-up, and catchy melodies but fairly simplistic music and standard lyrics.  QR were actually pretty unique in the style and complexity of their music.  Besides the First EP, which was pretty straight forward, things expanded from there.  The Warning album was one of my Favorites of the 80's.  I'm not sure if it's actually considered a "Concept" album, but it does tell a story and carry an overall theme.  For the time... they were quite bold in not just falling into the mainstream metal throng, which they had more than enough talent too do and make $$$.  With this in mind, when OM came out, there was really nothing else from those years too compare it to.  That makes it inspiring, and look at the commercial success it had.

When DT did SFAM, they were already at the top of a much larger Progrock subgenre then there was in the 80's.  The album at the time seemed a logical thing to do for DT.  OM was very bold and had a big impact on the metal world.  Did SFAM carry that same kind of impact?  While I don't know if QR actually falls into the true Deffinition of "Progressive Rock", OM was.  It's all of course personal choice, but having grown up with both albums in my adult life, OM was just bigger, bolder and better.

[dongringo]

Another aspect too consider....  Back in the 80's Metal was all about big hair, spandex (can someone PLEASE purge this from my brain), make-up, and catchy melodies but fairly simplistic music and standard lyrics.  QR were actually pretty unique in the style and complexity of their music.  Besides the First EP, which was pretty straight forward, things expanded from there.  The Warning album was one of my Favorites of the 80's.  I'm not sure if it's actually considered a "Concept" album, but it does tell a story and carry an overall theme.  For the time... they were quite bold in not just falling into the mainstream metal throng, which they had more than enough talent too do and make $$$.  With this in mind, when OM came out, there was really nothing else from those years too compare it to.  That makes it inspiring, and look at the commercial success it had.

When DT did SFAM, they were already at the top of a much larger Progrock subgenre then there was in the 80's.  The album at the time seemed a logical thing to do for DT.  OM was very bold and had a big impact on the metal world.  Did SFAM carry that same kind of impact?  While I don't know if QR actually falls into the true Deffinition of "Progressive Rock", OM was.  It's all of course personal choice, but having grown up with both albums in my adult life, OM was just bigger, bolder and better.

That was very well stated. I also remember when OM came out. That album had a HUGE impact on the metal world. I totally agree that it was bigger, bolder and better.

[7thHanyou]

SFAM is the album that got me into Dream Theater, so I picked it.  It's consistently interesting and it varies enough that I never feel bogged down by too much shredding or tranquilized by too many slow moments.  At first I thought the story itself was a bit silly, and I still do--but it's executed beautifully with the music, which is all that matters.  Read through the story and it doesn't have much of an impact, but the presentation changes that.

O:M is good, but I find it hard to listen to all the way to the end.  Suite Sister Mary is an absolute highlight.  The concept is better on paper than SFAM's, but it's executed so...consistently that by the end I don't care as much.  I really do think the first half of the album is much stronger, peaking at Suite Sister Mary.

For the record, I actually believe Iron Maiden's Seventh Son of a Seventh Son is better than O:M.  A bit more obscure, yes, but it works as a concept album because the music takes you on a journey.  Given that it's my favorite Iron Maiden album and a contemporary of O:M, I sometimes wonder why it's left out of these sorts of discussions.  But even Seventh Son doesn't quite measure up to SFAM for me because of its disjointed style and less obvious story.

The only concept album I like more than SFAM is Snow by Spock's Beard, but I don't know if Snow is better (IMO it's not as consistent in quality, but may make up for it by sheer volume).  Various Savatage albums trail closely behind SFAM as favorites.

[dongringo]

Savatage! I don't know why I always forget about Streets in these discussions.

[mentalny]

I think both albums are TOP 3 albums in general for me. I really like OM and concept is great. But of course I gave vote for SFAM because of dream theater.

I would agree a little with 7thHanyou.

[ZirconBlue]

For the record, I actually believe Iron Maiden's Seventh Son of a Seventh Son is better than O:M.

Strangely, Bruce Dickinson would disagree with you.  Or, at least he did several years ago.

[7thHanyou]

For the record, I actually believe Iron Maiden's Seventh Son of a Seventh Son is better than O:M.

Strangely, Bruce Dickinson would disagree with you.  Or, at least he did several years ago.

I've read that.  I believe he said that O:M was more cohesive and effective in terms of concept, which I think is kind of indisputable.  I mean, what is Seventh Son of a Seventh Son's story?  Is it very clear?  You get an idea, but it might be out of order and it might be purely allegorical.  Six songs out of the eight relay a story (with The Evil That Men Do and The Clairvoyant being exceptions), but the story's nowhere near Mindcrime's, which really works as a rock opera of sorts.

I guess my take on it is that it still manages to feel like a concept album through unity of atmosphere, and the atmosphere is remarkably strong, as are the lyrics on all songs but The Prophecy.  For the most part, I just think it's a better album musically and its concept works as a consequence of that.  Almost the same way I feel about SFAM--the music comes first.  Of course, in the case of SFAM, the concept is better fleshed-out.

By the time SFAM came out, as some other people have noted, people had a good idea of what to expect from concept albums--and SFAM lived up to it, IMO.  When O:M and Seventh Son came out, there just weren't many metal concept albums, if any.  Both were pioneers, but O:M was a bit more ahead of its time.  It deserves credit for that.

[Perpetual Change]

Six songs out of the eight relay a story (with The Evil That Men Do and The Clairvoyant being exceptions), but the story's nowhere near Mindcrime's, which really works as a rock opera of sorts.

And I'd disagree with Bruce. Unlike most people here in authority positions, I don't think a concept album has to practically be a rock opera to be good; nor do I think that the story of a concept album necessarily has to be so clear or even part of every song. But, meh, not even gonna bother.

[eric42434224]

; nor do I think that the story of a concept album necessarily has to be so clear or even part of every song. But, meh, not even gonna bother.

If there are songs on an album that arent part of a concept, then it isnt a concept album.

[Samsara]

I think both albums are TOP 3 albums in general for me. I really like OM and concept is great. But of course I gave vote for SFAM because of dream theater.

Exactly the reason why doing said poll on these two albums is ridiculous here.

Same if we did the poll over at AnybodyListening.net's board (www.anybodylistening.net/breakdownroom). Pointless.