Author Topic: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism  (Read 35303 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline El JoNNo

  • Posts: 1779
  • Gender: Male
  • EMOTRUCCI
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #315 on: March 19, 2012, 10:03:40 AM »
What's wrong with my definitions?  Those are the classical definitions.
A theist believes in God. Anyone that is not a theist is a person that does not believe in God. Agnostics are not theists. Therefore, agnostics do not believe in God. Therefore, agnostics are atheists.

That's my train of thought. It's why I think there's a difference between disbelief in the existence of God and belief in the nonexistence of God.

Can't you believe in a god without knowing there is one?  In that case, you would be agnostic, and a theist.
Isn't a belief based on conviction of some fact?
YES, which is why an agnostic is not an atheist.  They have no conviction of a belief.  In fact, an agnostic thinks that no such conviction is possible.

Theists have conviction, and atheists have conviction.  Agnostics believe that there is no conviction.

OK, that is where you are wrong. I have posted this multiple times. Gnostic refers to knowledge, theist refers to believe.

I am an agnostic atheist; I am agnostic when it comes to life on other planets and yet my position is a lack of belief in a god and I believe there is life in the universe somewhere.

Agnostics are atheists or theists.

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 4174
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #316 on: March 19, 2012, 10:24:51 AM »
The problem is that the definitions bleed into each other, making no one interpretation absolutely correct.
If you are an atheist or theist, does any sliver of doubt put you then into the agnostic camp?  Yes, if you interpret the definitions one way.  Coming to one consensus on the correct interpretation of the definitions, or trying to prove one interpretation correct over another, looks like an excercise in futility.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline GuineaPig

  • Posts: 3754
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #317 on: March 19, 2012, 11:13:51 AM »
The problem is that the definitions bleed into each other, making no one interpretation absolutely correct.
If you are an atheist or theist, does any sliver of doubt put you then into the agnostic camp?  Yes, if you interpret the definitions one way.  Coming to one consensus on the correct interpretation of the definitions, or trying to prove one interpretation correct over another, looks like an excercise in futility.

I don't think the definitions bleed into each other.  If you believe in a god or gods, you're a theist (or a deist or whatever, but let's keep it simple).  If you don't believe in gods, you're an atheist.  Whether you're an agnostic or not only indicates the level of conviction you have in those beliefs.
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea."

Offline El JoNNo

  • Posts: 1779
  • Gender: Male
  • EMOTRUCCI
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #318 on: March 19, 2012, 11:18:00 AM »
Yeah, they don't bleed at all.

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 4174
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #319 on: March 19, 2012, 11:45:23 AM »
The problem is that the definitions bleed into each other, making no one interpretation absolutely correct.
If you are an atheist or theist, does any sliver of doubt put you then into the agnostic camp?  Yes, if you interpret the definitions one way.  Coming to one consensus on the correct interpretation of the definitions, or trying to prove one interpretation correct over another, looks like an excercise in futility.

I don't think the definitions bleed into each other.  If you believe in a god or gods, you're a theist (or a deist or whatever, but let's keep it simple).  If you don't believe in gods, you're an atheist.  Whether you're an agnostic or not only indicates the level of conviction you have in those beliefs.

If you can be both, that is what I mean by "bleed into each other".
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline Rathma

  • Posts: 620
  • oh no she didnt
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #320 on: March 19, 2012, 12:03:02 PM »
Well since this thread is all about semantics and classification (lol @ arguing over definitions of atheist etc. without a decided definition of "God"), here's a riddle: M claims to be ignostic. He believes that "... a coherent definition of God must be presented before the question of the existence of god can be meaningfully discussed. Furthermore, if that definition is unfalsifiable, [he] takes the theological noncognitivist position that the question of the existence of God (per that definition) is meaningless." So can M be classified as an atheist or does he need a new category?

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36297
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #321 on: March 19, 2012, 12:06:44 PM »
Who gives a god damn?
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Rathma

  • Posts: 620
  • oh no she didnt
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #322 on: March 19, 2012, 12:15:46 PM »
Now that is a truly neutral stance.

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36297
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #323 on: March 19, 2012, 12:20:39 PM »
Now that is a truly neutral stance.

Oh sorry, I forgot that you were asking a question. My post was more in reply to the entire discussion we're having. It wasn't supposed to be a direct response to your question.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Omega

  • Posts: 805
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #324 on: March 19, 2012, 06:26:47 PM »
Well, good to know it made sense to someone, but let me put it differently.

You're objection to quantum mechanics explaining the big bang is that such an event requires something to exist in order for a quantum event to happen, but there's no reason to assume that what created our universe has to be something completely alien from our own. As I said, this doesn't fundamentally answer the question of why we exist, as it just begs the question of what this multiverse/metaverse is. It could be "God," under some definition, or it could basically be part of something even larger, and completely beyond our comprehension to understand. We're tiny, naive and ignorant creatures, who are but a tiny nothing of just our own, known universe.

You're just assuming a "multiverse" (for which no evidence exists and is clearly mere conjecture) actually exists and are then just attributing this supposed multiverse with godly qualities (spaceless, immaterial, etc). In order to escape the perfectly reasonable conclusion of a creator, you take a leap of faith and simply postulate "well, the multiverse could have caused our universe to come into existence" and then attribute the multiverse with god-like qualities. Why assume a multiverse exists? Why assume the alleged multiverse has godly qualities? Merely postulating the existence of a multiverse serves only to push the beginning back a step. A multiverse would still be nothing more than an amalgamation of space, time, energy and matter yet on a much grander scale. It's like changing the size of our universe to be trillions upon trillions of times larger than what we believe it is. Given our scientific endeavors, various philosophical reasons, and the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin theorem, that multiverse would still, ultimately, necessitate a beginning and explanation for its existence.
ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ

Offline Scheavo

  • Posts: 5444
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #325 on: March 19, 2012, 09:17:37 PM »
Well, good to know it made sense to someone, but let me put it differently.

You're objection to quantum mechanics explaining the big bang is that such an event requires something to exist in order for a quantum event to happen, but there's no reason to assume that what created our universe has to be something completely alien from our own. As I said, this doesn't fundamentally answer the question of why we exist, as it just begs the question of what this multiverse/metaverse is. It could be "God," under some definition, or it could basically be part of something even larger, and completely beyond our comprehension to understand. We're tiny, naive and ignorant creatures, who are but a tiny nothing of just our own, known universe.

You're just assuming a "multiverse" (for which no evidence exists and is clearly mere conjecture) actually exists and are then just attributing this supposed multiverse with godly qualities (spaceless, immaterial, etc).

I never said that said multiverse has you're godly qualities, I in fact said that these qualities don't have to be alien - that is, that which created our universe could very easily have spacelike, timelike, materiallike properties. Also, "mere conjecture" is not conjecture based upon unexplainable features of reality, math, and explainable features of reality. Conjecture? Yes, and I have always admitted that.

Quote
In order to escape the perfectly reasonable conclusion of a creator, you take a leap of faith and simply postulate "well, the multiverse could have caused our universe to come into existence" and then attribute the multiverse with god-like qualities. Why assume a multiverse exists? Why assume the alleged multiverse has godly qualities?

Why assume the multiverse exists? I'm not assuming the multiverse exists. I'm acknowledging that the multiverse could exist.

I never assumed that the multiverse does have godly qualities, I said it could be "God," because as Rathma pointed out above, at some point the discussion has to define God, and there are certain definitions of "God" I couldn't deny. I mean, one some level I'm really suggesting to you is maybe that which created our universe is "God," but that God isn't an agent who decided, and freely made the universe.

Quote
Merely postulating the existence of a multiverse serves only to push the beginning back a step. A multiverse would still be nothing more than an amalgamation of space, time, energy and matter yet on a much grander scale.

Do you read what I write, or just respond with an argument already in place that I'm making?

Quote
As I said, this doesn't fundamentally answer the question of why we exist, as it just begs the question of what this multiverse/metaverse is. It could be "God," under some definition, or it could basically be part of something even larger, and completely beyond our comprehension to understand.

If the multiverse is part of something even larger, who am I or you to make claims as to it's existence, the nature of it's existence, and possibly think we could answer why it exists? Not that I think these answers are possible, ever, to know.

I mean really, all you're doing is positing a multiverse, of sorts, but saying this something larger involves God, with the properties you attribute to God (spacelessness, timelessness, etc), without ever answering the question if it's possible "to exist" without being in space, in time, material, etc, or answering how such an "entity," "thing," or "being" could create the Universe. You're basically critiquing your own argument, and it's not a critique I disagree with.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 09:58:05 PM by Scheavo »

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 53498
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #326 on: March 20, 2012, 04:16:25 AM »
Agnostics are atheists or theists.

Yeah, they don't bleed at all.

Thanks for clearing that up.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline GuineaPig

  • Posts: 3754
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #327 on: March 20, 2012, 05:45:21 AM »
Agnostics are atheists or theists.

Yeah, they don't bleed at all.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Agnosticism is not a theological position.  There's no bleeding there. 
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea."

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 53498
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #328 on: March 20, 2012, 09:38:39 AM »
It's called humor.

Even though the semantics are tripping some people up, I am pretty sure most of us are agreed on the underlying concepts.

So what was this thread about again?
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #329 on: March 20, 2012, 10:44:33 AM »
God knows.

"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline Sigz

  • BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13537
  • Gender: Male
  • THRONES FOR THE THRONE SKULL
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #330 on: March 20, 2012, 12:16:53 PM »
Quote
The world is a stage, but the play is badly cast.

Offline kirksnosehair

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 8521
  • Gender: Male
  • Bryce & Kylie's Grandpa
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #331 on: March 20, 2012, 12:51:54 PM »

Offline Ħ

  • Posts: 3247
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #332 on: March 20, 2012, 08:32:47 PM »
So......are we in agreement? Does anyone disagree that atheism is making a positive claim (i.e., God does not exist)?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Sigz

  • BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13537
  • Gender: Male
  • THRONES FOR THE THRONE SKULL
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #333 on: March 20, 2012, 08:46:13 PM »
If you believe in a god or gods, you're a theist (or a deist or whatever, but let's keep it simple).  If you don't believe in gods, you're an atheist.  Whether you're an agnostic or not only indicates the level of conviction you have in those beliefs.

This is where I stand, however you want to take it to mean.
Quote
The world is a stage, but the play is badly cast.

Offline Ħ

  • Posts: 3247
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #334 on: March 20, 2012, 08:57:17 PM »
Let me ask in a different way. Must a person posit a positive reason to believe in the nonexistence of God in order to validate atheism? And if a person cannot posit a positive reason to believe in the nonexistence of God, should they take an agnostic stance, rather than an atheistic one?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36297
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #335 on: March 20, 2012, 08:57:51 PM »
I stand with Hef's post on it.



However one thing we all seem to be agreeing on is that Agnosticism isn't a theological stance and has no real reason to be grouped with Theism or Atheism.


I am Agnostic myself as I reject (most likely) the ability to know knowledge. However when it come's to a god of any kind, I don't believe but I don't reject the notion either. Which is why I don't classify myself as atheist.


But in the end, who cares? Why does it matter how we group together peoples belief systems? We're not even talking about the belief systems anymore, just how to best categorize them for no reason.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Omega

  • Posts: 805
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #336 on: March 20, 2012, 09:00:35 PM »
Again, I think it bears re-iterating that atheism has traditionally meant "God does not exist".
ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ

Offline the Catfishman

  • Posts: 490
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #337 on: March 21, 2012, 12:44:39 AM »
no it hasn't.

Offline Ħ

  • Posts: 3247
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #338 on: March 21, 2012, 01:05:45 AM »
yes
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36297
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #339 on: March 21, 2012, 01:11:51 AM »
Again, I think it bears re-iterating that none of this is relevant in the slightest bit.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Ħ

  • Posts: 3247
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #340 on: March 21, 2012, 01:13:13 AM »
Other than it being the whole point of the thread?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36297
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #341 on: March 21, 2012, 01:17:02 AM »
Other than it being the whole point of the thread?

It's going nowhere dude. You and other theists want to define atheism a certain way. Atheists want to define it another way. Despite its definition, everyone has their own beliefs. You and Omega will never agree with the atheists and the atheists will never agree with you.

And over what? The definition of a damn word that has no relevance to anything past an introductory statement.

This thread will just go on and on and on and on. You and Omega and others will keep saying the same things over and over, and the atheists will keep saying the same things over and over. What is the point?
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Ħ

  • Posts: 3247
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #342 on: March 21, 2012, 01:24:45 AM »
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Rathma

  • Posts: 620
  • oh no she didnt
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #343 on: March 21, 2012, 01:26:15 AM »
Welp, that pretty much nailed the coffin.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 53498
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #344 on: March 21, 2012, 04:22:22 AM »
Must a person posit a positive reason to believe in the nonexistence of God in order to validate atheism?
No.

And if a person cannot posit a positive reason to believe in the nonexistence of God, should they take an agnostic stance, rather than an atheistic one?
No.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Ħ

  • Posts: 3247
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #345 on: March 21, 2012, 07:40:09 AM »
Okay...
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #346 on: March 21, 2012, 08:03:03 AM »
Somewhere between the terms atheist and agnostic there's the actually the key stance missing that (I think) most people adhere to who call themselves agnostic: The "I don't care" stance to the question. That is, weren't it for the constant media barrage of religious zealots, we would never even talk about God, because it's a topic we don't even feel has any merit or relevance to our lives. I can definitely say it never comes up as a topic among my friends on its own. Only the Santorums and Phelps out there force us to talk about it.

rumborak
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline GuineaPig

  • Posts: 3754
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #347 on: March 21, 2012, 08:15:27 AM »
Somewhere between the terms atheist and agnostic there's the actually the key stance missing that (I think) most people adhere to who call themselves agnostic: The "I don't care" stance to the question. That is, weren't it for the constant media barrage of religious zealots, we would never even talk about God, because it's a topic we don't even feel has any merit or relevance to our lives. I can definitely say it never comes up as a topic among my friends on its own. Only the Santorums and Phelps out there force us to talk about it.

rumborak

I agree.  And it's unfortunate that people like Adami don't want to call themselves "atheist", because it conjures up the image of arrogant douchebags.
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea."

Offline Omega

  • Posts: 805
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #348 on: March 21, 2012, 02:37:29 PM »
no it hasn't.

My God, Catfish. I truly wonder which plane of existence you inhabit. The statement that atheism has traditionally meant "God does not exist" is as accurate as saying that, traditionally, theism has meant "God exists". To deny this is just seems to be an act of petty desperation.


Somewhere between the terms atheist and agnostic there's the actually the key stance missing that (I think) most people adhere to who call themselves agnostic: The "I don't care" stance to the question. That is, weren't it for the constant media barrage of religious zealots, we would never even talk about God, because it's a topic we don't even feel has any merit or relevance to our lives. I can definitely say it never comes up as a topic among my friends on its own. Only the Santorums and Phelps out there force us to talk about it.

rumborak

I suppose that stance is most closely embodied by "verificationsim"

It's going nowhere dude. You and other theists want to define atheism a certain way. Atheists want to define it another way. Despite its definition, everyone has their own beliefs. You and Omega will never agree with the atheists and the atheists will never agree with you.

And over what? The definition of a damn word that has no relevance to anything past an introductory statement.

Yes, we are defining atheism in the traditional and correct manner. Atheists want to re-define it in a desperate attempt to claw themselves out of the indefensible position that God does not exist. You realize something is amiss here and so state "despite its definition, everyone has their own beliefs." Take that for what it is saying: there is an objective meaning, definition of a word that is being deliberately corrupted by one's beliefs. I suppose that I can take any word I so desire, disregard the definition of it and slap on my own "belief" of what I think or want the word should mean and convince others that this new corruption of the word is the correct one.
ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ

Offline Rathma

  • Posts: 620
  • oh no she didnt
Re: Bertrand Russell's 'teapot' analogy to define atheism
« Reply #349 on: March 21, 2012, 03:13:33 PM »
there is an objective meaning, definition of a word that is being deliberately corrupted by one's beliefs.

Dude, there are no such things as objective meanings of words. Ask any linguist. The important thing is to try to agree on a definition, not to insist on some authoritative "traditional" definition.