Dream Theater entered the studio in February v. No News is Good News

[Mosh]

My feelings regarding the drummers :

I liked MP a lot until he quit the band and it was revealed how much of a control freak he was.

I love MM as a person - genuinely grateful to be in the band and his technical abilities are off the charts.

As for their playing on DT albums - I really liked MP's rock approach more than MM's robotic technique.

I think MM's solos are incredibly dull - even as a drummer myself who understands what he's doing.

I wish MM would lay back a bit more and just feel the music a bit more and not go

" Oh this bit is in 15 - i'll play 12 over 16 and then one bar of 3 over 6 and then reverse it between my left and right side "

Just PLAY.





- But overall i'd rather have MM in the band than MP.

This exactly.

Also, I've never said that MM can't groove. I know he can, I've listened to him play with Extreme and Nuno's solo band. The problem is that he doesn't groove. He doesn't seem to be interested in that. His drumming in DT has no feeling.

[BlackInk]

I remember back when he was completely new to the band I posted something like "I must be the only one to like his playing more than his personality". MM does seem like a nice person. But I recognize the type of personality he has, I know a few people who are like that. And quite honestly, I can't really stand them. It's not the 'being-nice' part that bothers me, that is of course really good and admirable. But MM has always come across as a try-hard. Someone who always says what everyone wants and is afraid to speak up against people. I'm quite convinced that that's not all of what he actually is though, and it's just an image I've formed through the limited information I have from him. But that is why I'm not as sold on him being a swell dude as most others seems to.

So between that, and the 'control freak' personality of Portnoy, I actually don't know who I'd prefer. Not that it matters, but still. Discussion.

[mikemangioy]

You know, there are pros and cons to both drummers for me. In the end I've got no preferences in the contest of DT(even though MP might be my favorite drummer ever). Even if MP was a control freak, I admired his perfect combo of grooviness and technicality, and just loved the little things that he added live. He's kind of mean, sometimes though.And towards the end of his carreer in the band (talking about SC and BCSL) he was definetly taking too much control. MM on the other end is a nice person, so fucking funny, and it really shows that he's so passionate about what he does, and truly believes in it - if the guy wants to do extremely technical stuff on drums in this band, let him do that, I enjoy the different approach he has compared to the other Mike. But still, he's pretty much a machine, and his drum sounds are a bit.. plastic. Although BTFW proved me wrong on both those aspects, maybe he was really enjoying playing in Boston, since it's his hometown, and so he kicked ass like never before.  So yeah, I'm pretty 50/50 about the whole thing, it also explains my username 

[425]

People praised MM before he was in the band.  Now it's like their opinions changed. I don't get it.

It's almost like they formed an initial impression and then received new data and in some cases had their impression change.

From my limited knowledge of Mangini I formed a tentative opinion, and then I listened to two whole DT albums that he played on, and my opinion changed. Are you saying that once I formed an opinion once I should never ever have had my opinion change?

Honestly don't get the "You MUST have an unreservedly positive opinion of Mangini's drumming or you're just a whiner who doesn't understand" thing.

[Prog Snob]

People praised MM before he was in the band.  Now it's like their opinions changed. I don't get it.

From my limited knowledge of Mangini I formed a tentative opinion, and then I listened to two whole DT albums that he played on, and my opinion changed. Are you saying that once I formed an opinion once I should never ever have had my opinion change?

Not at all. What I'm saying is that it seems some people praised him based on knowing very little about him or just formed their opinion based on what other people said instead of waiting to have sufficient information to form a valid and respectable opinion.  It seems that sometimes people will just speak to be heard and not necessarily have anything concrete to back what they say. 

By the way, don't assume that I'm referring to you. This is just a generalization based on what I've seen.

[425]

Ah, okay. That makes a bit more sense. I wasn't around here pre-ADTOE, anyway, so there's that. Thanks for clearing it up. Also, my third paragraph is a generalization and not necessarily directed at you.

[Mosh]

When I heard Mangini was joining the band I was really excited. I liked what he did with Extreme and he seemed like a good fit. Then ADTOE came out and I didn't find any of the drum parts interesting and also really disliked the mix. I felt like had to struggle to find the nuances in his playing. I know a lot of people boil it down to an ego thing with MP, but I loved how high his drums were in the mix. DT12 had a much better drum sound, I still don't hear what people are complaining about with it, but again a lot of Mangini's parts just didn't resonate with me. It's definitely a step in the right direction and there were some moments I really liked from him, but I'm not sold on him in DT just yet.

[Prog Snob]

Ah, okay. That makes a bit more sense. I wasn't around here pre-ADTOE, anyway, so there's that. Thanks for clearing it up. Also, my third paragraph is a generalization and not necessarily directed at you.

    No problem, my friend. 

[JayOctavarium]

Wait.... MP left Dream Theatre?

[fadetoblackdude7]

When I heard Mangini was joining the band I was really excited. I liked what he did with Extreme and he seemed like a good fit. Then ADTOE came out and I didn't find any of the drum parts interesting and also really disliked the mix. I felt like had to struggle to find the nuances in his playing. I know a lot of people boil it down to an ego thing with MP, but I loved how high his drums were in the mix. DT12 had a much better drum sound, I still don't hear what people are complaining about with it, but again a lot of Mangini's parts just didn't resonate with me. It's definitely a step in the right direction and there were some moments I really liked from him, but I'm not sold on him in DT just yet.

3rd time's a charm 

[rumborak]

Regarding the groove thing, my take on it is that while he *can* groove, it's a bit of an acquired skill for him, because it's not how he approaches drumming by default. His natural approach seems to be "deconstruct, then reconstruct". So, he focuses on playing a 5/8 on his left hand and a 12/16 on his right, and then switches left and right hand. That is impressive indeed.
There is a YouTube video where he kinda gives a public lesson in a big auditorium. The interesting part is when he talks about some style where one of the grandmasters told him "no, you have to be a bit sloppy here. That's what makes the style.". He then proceeds to explain " Ah, so I need to be ahead by 1/32, and some other times be late by a 1/32." He then proceeds to give an example ... and it sounds awful. It sounded exactly like someone who's been practicing his whole life to be precise, and then added a style's "feel" as a controlled addition to this precision.

TLDR: I think MM is by nature a technical drummer. So, joining DT I think he felt he could (and should) live out that part which comes natural to him.

[Kotowboy]

Yeah I subscribe to the school of thought that you can't teach "feel" - you just have to have it.

[mikeyd23]

Oh and Mangini can groove when he wants to...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00GXRzoJbiI

I loved everything about that video, from the playing to the sound of his drums and cymbals... Great stuff, and definitely had some "groove" IMO.

[Calvin6s]

Yeah I subscribe to the school of thought that you can't teach "feel" - you just have to have it.

Yes and no.  The more comfortable you get playing a song, the more you concentrate on dynamics as opposed to playing the notes.

Groove really is a meaningless debate though.  I'm sure we've all had the band rehearsal situation where visitors knock on your door to say "dude, that was so tight.  It is just so solid .... locked in  <blah blah blah>".  Then you get another visitor that doesn't really subscribe to your style tell you "the problem is it just doesn't groove".  Now these are fellow musicians, so you can hear what their definition of groove is.  They just have a *different* groove than you and assume their groove is right. Telling somebody to "groove more" really seems to be more of a condescending comment rather than constructive criticism.

What is groove:
Is it that funky staccato?
Is it that R&B flow?
Is it that Pantera machine lock?
Is it Meshuggah playing with groove?
Is it that classical 3/4 push?

Is it the way the drummer locks in with the rhythm (like lots of metal)?
Or is it the way the drum establishes a beat and the rhythm weaves more than locks (like hard rock such as AC/DC)?

Groove debates are largely ruled by style ... where both are right.

As far as Mangini goes, my reservations are not his ability, his groove, his technical prowess ....   I just want him to have more effect on the final product (songwriting effect, not technique effect).  It is more encouraging more Mangini than a claim there is anything wrong with him.

[Skeever]

I remember back when he was completely new to the band I posted something like "I must be the only one to like his playing more than his personality". MM does seem like a nice person. But I recognize the type of personality he has, I know a few people who are like that. And quite honestly, I can't really stand them. It's not the 'being-nice' part that bothers me, that is of course really good and admirable. But MM has always come across as a try-hard. Someone who always says what everyone wants and is afraid to speak up against people. I'm quite convinced that that's not all of what he actually is though, and it's just an image I've formed through the limited information I have from him. But that is why I'm not as sold on him being a swell dude as most others seems to.

So between that, and the 'control freak' personality of Portnoy, I actually don't know who I'd prefer. Not that it matters, but still. Discussion.

I don't agree with all of this, but I do agree that, to some extent Mangini strikes me as a player who is maybe too respectful to really have his voice heard. With so many albums he's played on, you always hear retroactive excuses for why the performance is underwhelming:

(not verbatim paraphrases of how I've interpreted things)
Elements of Persuasion: "I only had a few days"
Dramatic Turn: "I tried to respect the parts that were written"
DT12: "I had no control over how the drums were going to sound"

And with DT13, it's shaping up to be "I was snowed in and couldn't make it to the studio."

Mangini seems like a great, friendly, respectful guy, and he's a hell of a player. But I do feel like he's the kind of person who just doesn't want to speak up and take ownership for what he records. I read into things this way, because I'm the same type of person usually, and like Mangini I always seem to be trying to accommodate everyone else. I just wish he'd flex some muscle and do something that expresses his full potential as a player.

[Calvin6s]

Is there a YouTube video out there yet of a Mangini clinic where he breaks down some of his DT recording drum work?  Mangini mega fans .... a little help?

[Calvin6s]

Is there a YouTube video out there yet of a Mangini clinic where he breaks down some of his DT recording drum work?  Mangini mega fans .... a little help?

Mangini time sigs

A bit of a stretch on what I was requesting, but there's something.

[nikatapi]

Since this thread has turned out to be a MM discussion, i'll add my two cents.
First of all, yes, Mike wants to keep everyone happy and try not to be pushy as far as his demands are concerned, he has admitted that. And i'm sure that all this time in DT he wanted to keep the band together and not be another MP to push things too far.
On the other hand, he is not very happy with his sound on ADTOE, he specifically said to me that his interpretation of the sound is like being recorded with just two mics. And i couldn't agree more, a lot of stuff is hidden behind the horrendous production, which is not his responcibility but mostly JP's. And the snare sound on DT12 was also not his decision, but he decided to go forward just to try something different, and respect the producer's vision.

Given that, when i told him about BTFW, in terms of sound and in terms of playing-intrepreting older parts, he told me that he feels more comfortable and he now feels free to be more like himself, since he has been accepted by most of the fans, and he doesn't need to prove himself anymore as being capable of keeping the band sounding like Dream Theater. He also said that he has found ways to make his drum recordings easier for everyone (i hope he doesn't mean triggering drums, but he didn't want to answer in specific) and improve his sound, so i guess BTFW levels of drum sound or better are to be expected of the next album.

As far as grooving, i personally feel that MM has more dynamics and groove than MP, he might play superfast some times, but he is definitely a very different drummer, he feels the rhythm in a certain (unique) way, and he is sometimes more subtle in accenting things and complimenting the other instruments. Of course crappy drum production doesn't help, so maybe this is why he sounds robotic. But listening to his natural sound during the Zildjian day event, where he played TEI and part of IT, he is definitely a groovy and very powerful player.

So i guess on the new album, first of all the drum sound needs to be improved (and all the cymbals should be audible this time, not buried) and maybe Mike will try to be more experimental. Of course in the end, it is a matter of production, so if JP rejects some of his ideas, it's not entirely Mike's fault for more generic sounding parts.

[erwinrafael]

I think that the positive reaction of fans to MM's drumming in BTFW indicates that the perception of being robotic is really more of a production issue. I have been playing the DT12 and BTFW versions of the DT12 songs back to back, and MM is not really deviating much from the studio versions, but the drumming feels more alive.

[Woodworker1]

I completely agree; I was one who did not really appreciate MM's drumming until I saw BTFW.  Being able to see and hear what he is playing made all the difference.  I was blown away by how much better I could hear MM on the DVD, and the amount of drum parts shown that I never would have caught by listening the CD.

I think that the positive reaction of fans to MM's drumming in BTFW indicates that the perception of being robotic is really more of a production issue. I have been playing the DT12 and BTFW versions of the DT12 songs back to back, and MM is not really deviating much from the studio versions, but the drumming feels more alive.

[erwinrafael]

TLG, in particular, really shone in the BTFW version compared to the DT one.

On another note, JP is not in the studio as well based on the FB update. 

[JayOctavarium]

So it's just JMX sitting there alone. What is he doing?


...bass

[GasparXR]

So it's just JMX sitting there alone. What is he doing?


...bass

Yeah, bassically.

[JayOctavarium]

But... we're talking about John Myung, Not Geezer...

[GasparXR]

But... we're talking about John Myung, Not Geezer...

Oh, come on, you don't have to be such a nib about it.

[JayOctavarium]

But... we're talking about John Myung, Not Geezer...

Oh, come on, you don't have to be such a nib about it.

Oh shit...

[Prog Snob]

Whatever happened to Gaspar Green?

[GasparXR]

Whatever happened to Gaspar Green?

John Myung's silly bow face took priority.

[Prog Snob]

Whatever happened to Gaspar Green?

John Myung's silly bow face took priority.

Clearly, the wiser choice.   

[ReaPsTA]

Vacant's a pretty good song.  If JM and JR want to just write some stuff on their own, I'm not going to complain.

[hefdaddy42]

Vacant's a pretty good song.  If JM and JR want to just write some stuff on their own, I'm not going to complain.

No doubt.

[bosk1]

Vacant's a pretty good song.  If JM and JR want to just write some stuff on their own, I'm not going to complain.

No doubt.

Hush, hush, darlin'.

[King Postwhore]

Vacant's a pretty good song.  If JM and JR want to just write some stuff on their own, I'm not going to complain.

No doubt.

Hush, hush, darlin'.

Don't Speak bosk1.

[bosk1]

That's what she Zydar said. 

[King Postwhore]

I just blew a bubble from my nose laughing.