Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album

[dongringo]

These wine tasting events are nothing new for GT. He's been doing this a lot for the past couple years. I wanted to drive up there to one of these at one time, but wouldn't do it now.

[El Barto]

It didn't make me wanna run out and buy the album or anything, but Get Started wasn't was a lot better than I was expecting based on the comments here.  Jackson/Rockenfield sounded pretty strong.  An actual guitar solo might have been nice, and Tate's vocal melodies were pretty unexciting, but it actually had a better feel than the last few albums. 

[dongringo]

It didn't make me wanna run out and buy the album or anything,

 

[MasterShakezula]

It didn't make me wanna run out and buy the album or anything,

 

I bet if you had Geoff's wine, you'd be paying double price just to get your hands on the album.   

[dongringo]

I wouldn't mind trying some of that wine. Wonder who wrote the recipe? 

[KevShmev]

As of right now, it's the second-lowest rated QR on Progarchives, with a 2.37.

The lowest rated by them on the site is Q2K, with a 2.04.

Unbelievably, both still beat the 1.85 rating the new dredg record has over there.

[MasterShakezula]

As of right now, it's the second-lowest rated QR on Progarchives, with a 2.37.

The lowest rated by them on the site is Q2K, with a 2.04.

Unbelievably, both still beat the 1.85 rating the new dredg record has over there.

I'm not familiar with Dredg.  Did they make some sort of concept album about Youtube or stripping, to somehow under-exceed QR's post 1997 repertoire?

[Perpetual Change]

As of right now, it's the second-lowest rated QR on Progarchives, with a 2.37.

The lowest rated by them on the site is Q2K, with a 2.04.

Unbelievably, both still beat the 1.85 rating the new dredg record has over there.

I can see why the negativity has been stronger toward dredg. Because an average album release on the back of a fantastic one just doesn't draw them same reaction as a terrible album released on the back of a bad one. I think of it kinda like this: dredg fans' expectation levels for the band were dropped overnight from like a perfect 10 to a 5. QR fans just went from 2 to 1. The farther fall hurts more, just like the first fight with a significant other is way worse than the 100th.

For reference, remember how Falling into Infinity or Train of Thought were originally received?

[MasterShakezula]

As of right now, it's the second-lowest rated QR on Progarchives, with a 2.37.

The lowest rated by them on the site is Q2K, with a 2.04.

Unbelievably, both still beat the 1.85 rating the new dredg record has over there.

I can see why the negativity has been stronger toward dredg. Because an average album release on the back of a fantastic one just doesn't draw them same reaction as a terrible album released on the back of a bad one. I think of it kinda like this: dredg fans' expectation levels for the band were dropped overnight from like a perfect 10 to a 5. QR fans just went from 2 to 1. The farther fall hurts more, just like the first fight with a significant other is way worse than the 100th.

For reference, remember how Falling into Infinity or Train of Thought were originally received?

If QR made an album of the quality of FII or TOT in 2013, that would be more than a viable comeback. 

[The Dark Master]

For reference, remember how Falling into Infinity or Train of Thought were originally received?

FII and ToT are not even close to DTC in terms of a fall from grace.  Despite the relatively high expectations leading off of Awake and I&W, the response to FII at the time was no where near as venomous as the response to DTC.  I actually started getting into Dream Theater in the FII period, and a lot of DT fans who helped get me into the band said that it was still a great album, even if it was not on the quality of it's predecessors.  Despite a few weak tracks, the album had more then enough stand out songs for it to please the majority of Dream Theater fans at the time.  I really think much of FII's negative reputation was built up years later by members of the band talking about how the album, despite it's strong points, was originally intended to be so much more.  After that, people began to see it as a maimed remnant of what should have been a great album, rather then judging it on it's own merits.

As for Train of Thought, I wouldn't say the album was universally hated when it came out, but it was a very divisive record.  The fans who had bitched about parts of 6DOIT being too heavy despised the album, but the more metal of Dream Theater's fans (myself included, as well as many other DT fans I knew at the time) loved the shit out of it because we had always wanted at least one DT record like that.  Furthermore, the sound of ToT helped the band to break even farther back into the public eye, thus building on the success of the albums that came before it.  I know a lot of younger metalheads who discovered DT during the ToT period.  That record gained a whole new legion of fans for DT, which more then made up for some disgruntled, old-school prog snobs.

DTC received a very negative, hateful response from the majority of Queensryche fans since the beginning, unlike the relatively subdued response FII received.  Furthermore, DTC isn't gaining QR any new, younger fans, unlike what ToT did for Dream Theater.  I really do not see how DTC can be compared to those to albums in any way.

[MasterShakezula]

Honestly, I'd say that even DT's weakest albums are waaaay stronger than any of Q's output after PL.  And it's not like I exactly worship TOT and its followups, either.

[snowdog]

I find it funny that "The Most Helpful Favorable Review" on Amazon has 1 out of 4 people who found it "helpful".

[Samsara]

Has QR been disbanded yet?  This coming from the guy who hosts the QR equivalent of DTF....

Such a damn waste. Here is a post I put up on The Breakdown Room yesterday. Pretty much sums up the whole D2C impact:

In light of what would I would call the abomination that is Dedicated to Chaos, I quote a guitar player and band leader respected throughout metal, rock and progressive circles regarding writing new music:

Quote

"I try to stay pure to the initial conception of our band; we're a progressive band and we're a metal band, mixed.

"We always try to push some sort of boundary and do something that's a little bit different, some sort of element we haven't done before. You'll hear that for sure. You don't want to repeat yourself, but at the same time it's important to stay focused on what makes up the sound of the band."

That quote comes from John Petrucci of Dream Theater, talking about the band's new album, A Dramatic Turn of Events and how John approaches writing a new record.

Source: https://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=160660

I was a HUGE fan of DT from when I first heard them in 1995 through about 1999. I loved everything from When Dream and Day Unite through Falling into Infinity.

And while since then, I have liked their work less and less, it still SOUNDED LIKE DREAM THEATER. I remained a fan, still went to shows and supported them, even though I was very vocal about my personal dislike in the directions they were taking. I still respected them.

Why?

JP says it all -- the band's songwriters KNOW what fans want. Yet they are also artists and need room to experiment a little. As a fan, while I might not enjoy a particular direction, as long as the band that I am a fan of still sounds like the same band, and most importantly, has a keen sense of WHAT THEY ARE AS A BAND, and stays true to that, I'll support them.

That's where "Tateryche" missed the boat heavily here with Defecation to Chaos.

QUEENSRYCHE, at its core, is a guitar-driven hard rock/metal band, with progressive influences and dramatic vocal melodies. The band also had a nice grasp of current sounds and styles it incorporated into its records.

Every single QR record, including Q2k and everything post-Degarmo, still, at its core, was a guitar driven hard rock record. Sure, some songs missed the boat, some performances weren't great, but they still sounded like they belonged under the name "Queensryche," despite who wrote them.

Dedicated to Chaos ignores that factor entirely. And that's not novel and forward-thinking. That is, frankly, in my opinion, stupidity.

Petrucci, and various other musicians, get the absolute need for that BALANCE of artistic expansion and expectation. They accept and embrace that and make sure they have the finger on the pulse of what the fans think, and instead of shrugging it off, strive to always be conscious of what their band IS, as a sound, as a piece of musical art.

Wake-up call, Geoff Tate. If you love pop music driven by drums and keyboards, that's great my man. Music is beautiful. But Queensryche isn't that. The more you rattle off how you make music for yourself and brush aside and ignore any fan expectation, the less successful the band will be.

Queensryche is a guitar-driven hard rock band. Accept that. Relish it. Be thankful for it. And the next album you attempt to create, embrace that and find that balance between art and expectation. Otherwise, the band Chris, Michael, Eddie, Scott and yourself worked so hard to build up since 1981 will be stripped of any of its relevance and most importantly, any of its credibility going forward.

[contest_sanity]

Very well said.

Also, LOL at "Defecation to Chaos."

[stryker]

Very well said indeed!

[Nick]

If the band were writing great music then I don't think nearly as many fans would be giving them shit. Queensryche's sound had some pretty significant changes with Empire, and again with Promised Land, and especially with the latter fans rejoiced in the change. So many bands are applauded for being innovative and for changing their sound and not becoming stale, and the reason Queensryche gets so much shit for their changes I feel have very little to do with the change in sound itself.

[King Postwhore]

If the band were writing great music then I don't think nearly as many fans would be giving them shit. Queensryche's sound had some pretty significant changes with Empire, and again with Promised Land, and especially with the latter fans rejoiced in the change. So many bands are applauded for being innovative and for changing their sound and not becoming stale, and the reason Queensryche gets so much shit for their changes I feel have very little to do with the change in sound itself.

Well Nick like Rush, QR did change but kept the essence of who they were.  The writing like you said is very sub par but this is a real radical change to a fanbase all ready waning.

[dongringo]

What if DT came out with something DTC in sound, written in large part by outside writers who didn't write the songs originally for the Queensryche sound, then said that album sales don't matter to them? It would be a slap in the face to their fans. Even FII sounded like DT. DTC doesn't sound anything like Queensryche apart from one song. They've tried to snow their fans by saying that it sounds like Empire or a current Rage For Order. Apart from Michael Wilton, who apparently is just along for the ride, they have lost touch with reality. They apparently think their fans are stupid. If they don't get it together and become what they are again, and fast, they will be playing nothing but casinos and county fairs for the rest of their careers.

[MasterShakezula]

What if DT came out with something DTC in sound, written in large part by outside writers who didn't write the songs originally for the Queensryche sound, then said that album sales don't matter to them? It would be a slap in the face to their fans. Even FII sounded like DT, and is far above being compared to anything QR's done without DeGarmo.  DTC doesn't sound anything like Queensryche apart from one song. They've tried to snow their fans by saying that it sounds like Empire or a current Rage For Order. Apart from Michael Wilton, who apparently is just along for the ride, they have lost touch with reality. They think their fans are stupid. If they don't get it together and become what they are again, and fast, (And they probably won't) they will be playing nothing but wine chateaus and strip clubs for the rest of their careers or until Geoff ditches QR and attempts to do a MJ-type solo thing, playing up his Peter-Pan-complex..

This, adjusted a bit to be more accurate to my opinion.  I do agree with essentially everything you said, though. 

[dongringo]

^ 

[wolfking]

Queensryche - Dedicated to Chaos.

I have been a fan of Queensryche for about 13 years now.  I discovered Mindcrime and Empire and was in love ever since.  Now, it’s no news that the band has had a rough time over the last 15 years but I for one, have supported them my whole 13 years and supported all of their later albums.  It’s 2011 and things are pretty shaky in the Ryche camp.  Late last month they released their eleventh studio album Dedicated to Chaos.  Tate seems pretty egotistical lately and it seems he is very happy with this output and it seems he doesn’t care who disagrees.  This is solely a Tate record with help from his outside songwriters.  We see, (from my point of view) the other three members been brought down to session musicians just doing what they are told for their pay check, with little or no input into the songwriting of this album.   We see declining sales which we all hope might knock some sense into Tate.  We also see the band wanting you to prove your purchase of the new album just to see a promotional clip.  It’s difficult to see where this band is heading.

With all this, I was still eager to purchase my copy and see what I tought for myself.  I am reviewing the special edition here which includes 16 tracks.  Regarding all the negative press and reviews from you guys on here and all over the web, I decided to dive into Dedicated to Chaos with no expectations, and simply taking the album for what it is.  With a band like Queensryche, I think I owe it to them to give this a good go.

Now, is DTC as bad as everyone says it is.......well......unfortunately.......well...almost.  What we have here is a random collection of 16 tracks each with no rhyme or reason with a lack of hooks or memorable melodies.  Tate says himself it is suppose to be just a collection of songs, and it shows as the regular edition has a different track listing, which I still don’t understand the reasons behind.  This album is nothing that the band has done before.  I remember I think bosk said that Scott said in an interview that this is a metal record.  Calling this a metal record is a laughable as calling Symphony X’s Iconoclast perfect dinner party music.  This is the softest, tamest album Queensryche have come up with.  I give the band credit though for doing something different, I actually always like when bands evolve and do different styles.  Saying that, there’s a difference between evolved styles and just mediocre songs.

The Music/Performances;

Now,  Tate says this album is more focused on rhythm with the guitars being more of a sprinkled delicacy, instead as acting as a rhythm instrument.  From that description, that’s actually what we get here.  The combo of Scott and Eddie is really, really great.  With the limited music they have to work with, they have provided a solid, great rhythm section to this record, which does make parts of it quite enjoyable.  Michael also does a wonderful job.  Michael’s choices in tones, notes and just his choice of where to put different guitar lines is really excellent.  It’s a different side of his guitar playing we rarely see and with the simplicity of what’s on offer here, he sounds fantastic.  The two or three guitar solos he does get, you can hear some classic Ryche styles trying to get through, although he’s cut short but Tate. 

It’s funny how Tate driven this record is and he in fact is the weakest link.  The band performs these songs really well, but Tate just doesn’t seal the deal.  He sounds old, tired, run down, and he just doesn’t put anything into his vocals at all, it just sounds like he doesn’t give a shit.  He also goes for some highs which almost verge on his voice cracking and straining.  A disappointing performance from him which brings the record down.  Also, I don’t know what Parker’s role is.  I’d be very surprised if he even played a single note on this record.  Also, it’s amusing how he is in the band photos but not even listed as a permanent band member.  His name gets listed under Randy who played keyboards as ‘additional guitar’. Christ, poor bastard.

Music and Performances: 6/10. (The 6 is for the other three not Tate.)

Production;

The overall sound of the disc I think is very good.  Considering Kelly is back at the helm I was worried, but sonically, the record sounds great.  The atmospheres that the songs are trying to deliver really shine through the production, mostly in the music though.  Again, Tate’s vocals are ordinary and I feel they are also not produced and mixed that well in the record.  It just seems at times that his vocals are popped on top of the music, not meshing with the music at all.  Also, there’s a lot of vocals here that should have been re done, it brings it down.  I can get past that though and mostly the audio quality of the album is good.

Production: 3/5


Lyrics;

Oh Christ, I feel I’ve addressed the good things of the record, and yes I do feel this record has some good.  Now we get down to the songs and lyrics.  The lyrics here are just atrocious.  Coming from a guy that wrote the Mindcrime story, it’s just too hard to forgive some of these lyrics, they are just fucking embarrassing.  The song titles themselves are a joke.  Wot We Do, LUVNU, WTF, come on, give us Queensryche fans some fucking credit Geoff.  Even some songs which have some decent ideas, are just executed poorly and just amateurish.  I will save some of the topics for my reviews on the songs.

Lyrics: 0/5


Songs;

Get Stated:  Okay, I thought Pearl Jam released a new cd and it was put in the DTC cover by mistake when I first put this song on, because that’s what it sounds like the band is going for on this song.  I love Pearl Jam though so overall this really is one of the better songs.  It’s got a good grove, and I like the middle section.  This is decent radio rock, nothing more.  3/5

Hot Spot Junkie:  One of only two songs that Eddie contributes to.  This musically is also not too bad.  I didn’t mind this when it got going, but Tate, WTF Tate.  Wifi frenzy world?!  The way Tate sings Youtube makes me want to strangle some fucking cats, and I love cats.  Seriously, these lyrics, and Tate’s delivery is just awful.  With better lyrics and a more solid performance, this would have been okay.  Saying that, overall I don’t mind it and it’s one of the only songs that hints at the older Ryche sound.  2.5/5

Got It Bad:  At this stage of the record I was thinking, “Hey, this isn’t as bad as everyone is making it out to be.”  Then this song came on.  Seriously, WTF is this?  This song seems to be about Geoff having a sunglasses fetish, which, I can’t really relate to.  The chorus is just awful.  Eddie and Scott try and save it and really after multiple listens, surprisingly, I’m actually singing along to the chorus.  LOL.  It is a little catchy but it doesn’t mean it not bad. Also, ‘Bad dog, don’t make me beg,’ *slaps forehead* 1.5/5

Around the World:  I thought the opening credits of ER was on my TV when this started, sounds exactly like it.  Not really digging this song, ‘all we need is love’.......hmm....I’m a sucker for a decent love song but this is just crap really.  It has some really nice melodies, and a decent atmosphere and I really like Michael’s guitar, but really it doesn’t cut it. 2/5

Higher:  I guess the cabaret thing they were doing really rubbed off here.  A more big band, jazzy type which really isn’t too bad.  Again, the rhythm section is great and I like Michaels solo.  The sax is a nice touch too.  It gets old really quick, and one problem I have with the record is Geoff and his melodies just all sound the same through most of the songs.  There’s variety in the songs, which is a good thing, but no variety with Geoff’s vocals. I hate the ending too, it ruins the mood of the song. 2.5/5

Retail Therapy:  Here’s a good one, despite some rubbish lyrics again.  This one reminds me a bit of Hit the Black.  One of the more rockier songs on the record, and one of the highlights for me.  A really good chorus.  The lyrics do let it down. 3.5/5

At the Edge:  Probably the highlight along with RT, and the only song that reminds me of Queensryche.  A darker tone and atmosphere.  It’s not as accessible and needs some listens but the second half of the song is good with some great prog elements.  The band really work together well on this one. 4/5

Broken:  Something very different here.  It needs to be a little shorter, but for what it is, it’s okay.  This is where the album starts to get dragged down but songs which just don’t click and are less memorable.  I don’t know what Tate was going for here, it’s different, but doesn’t deserve repeated listens.  If Tate put in more of a performance it would have been better. 2.5/5

Hard Times:  Just boring.  Goes for like five minutes and goes nowhere.  Again, the three musicians deliver what they have to work with, but it’s nowhere near enough to save it. Poorly placed after Broken. 1/5

Drive:  Bit more of a groove here.  Nice darker riffs, but again, the lyrics are ordinary.  I like the chorus, this also reminds me a little of older Queensryche. 3/5

I Believe: WTF is this?  This sucks, just fucking shut up Geoff!! 0.5/5

LUVNU:  Crap, childish title, but reminds me a little of HITNF, but not as good.  Simple music, average lyrics, but it’s listenable.  Doesn’t go anywhere though. 2/5

Wot We Do:  This is by far the worst song Queensryche has ever done.  Absolute shit lyrics, shit music, shit performance.  No, just no. 0/5

I Take You:  Hmm...there’s nothing memorable here, but I’ll listen to it, it’s actually good compared to the shit song before.  2/5

The Lie: The second Eddie song, but I don’t like it.  I don’t mind the chunky guitars here but the tempo again is lacking and by this stage of the album, I’ve had enough.  Don’t mind Michaels parts though, you get again a glimpse of older Ryche. 2/5

Big Noize:  They can’t even fucking spell properly.  This could have had some potential.  I wish they grew on the ideas and evolved the songs instead of keeping it the same.  A slow end to a very slow second half of the album. 1.5/5

Songs: 33.5/80

As you can see, it’s the songs that really let this album down.  Some okay listens towards the start but by track 8 it just gets slower and slower and is just tiring.  I feel I have been as fair as possible.  I really have given the album a good go and in some parts, I enjoyed it.  I haven’t compared too much to old Ryche and I feel I have taken the songs for what they are.  It interested me with the band doing something so different, but since the songs just don’t cut it, I’m pretty over it.  I will chuck it on once in a while, because it is something different, but I don’t like where the bands is headed.  After American Solider, I was very happy, that was a return to good music and there was hope for Queensryche.  It would be interesting to see where they go from here.  I was going to say that this is the second worst Ryche record after Q2K, but then I remembered that that album has Right Side of My Mind, so therefore, Dedicated to Chaos is Queensryche’s worst record.

Score: 42.5/100

[emtee]

^Great review.

The big question for me, as a big fan since the first EP ( is that whistling I hear...yep) is what now? Executives at a label
have budgets and therefore minimal expectations of sales performance. Will the exec's give QR a pass on this and allow
them 100% creative direction or will they put pressure on QR to change direction? Who knows. I really envision increasing
tension between members of the band in the coming months, and that will increase tenfold if the label is breathing
down Tate's back. Time will tell.

[Perpetual Change]

I'm actually pretty astounding that there are even fans like you, wolf, who are still even interested to see what they do after this.

[Jirpo]

Nice review wolf!

[bosk1]

Interesting comparison note:  At the upcoming High Voltage festival, Queensryce are buried at the #4 spot on the first day whereas DT are headlining day 2.  

[jjrock88]

good review........i agree that the only two good tracks are RT and At the Edge..........the rest is pure garbage.  I said it before, I will never play the hard copy of DTC ever again.

[stryker]

Interesting comparison note:  At the upcoming High Voltage festival, Queensryce are buried at the #4 spot on the first day whereas DT are headlining day 2.  

Interesting comparison indeed!   

[Nick]

Bought 4 tickets today for $72. I remember when I couldn't get 2 tickets for that kind of money.

[The Dark Master]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HcG4oY3jf4

Seriously, this is what the band wanted to keep secret from public to ensure only people who have purchased the album can view it? Pffft!

I just watched it for the first time today.  634 views.  So much for "exclusive content" being a strong incentive to actually buy the album.  Hell, even assuming all 634 views were from people who actually bought the album (and I'm sure more then a few of them were not), that's only 1 in every 16 people who purchased it in the first week.

BTW Wolf, great review.  Pretty close to how I felt about the album, too.  

EDIT:  I just noticed the video in Wolf's link, while being the official video, is not on QR's official youtube account, so I'm guessing some fan uploaded it themselves.  Intriguingly, this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRWcdSTVCUc does seem to be hosted by the band, is open to public viewing, and I have noticed the view counter has shot up like 100 views in the past minute, (although it still has less then 300).  Curiouser and curiouser...........

[wolfking]

Thanks guys.   

Dark Master, yeah, I just searched youtube and it came up.  it's definitely just from a fan.  Interesting that the band themselves have hosted it.

[dongringo]

Nice review wolf, but imo some of your scores are too high. It really doesn't deserve a 42.5/100. I mean, it only has one decent Queensryche sounding song on it. The rest are Geoff Tate and Friends and in most cases aren't even mediocre songs. Just my opinion. 

[wolfking]

Nice review wolf, but imo some of your scores are too high. It really doesn't deserve a 42.5/100. I mean, it only has one decent Queensryche sounding song on it. The rest are Geoff Tate and Friends and in most cases aren't even mediocre songs. Just my opinion. 

Yeah, I felt I may have been very generous, perhaps too much.  Nevertheless, as I said there were elements I did enjoy.

[dongringo]

Nice review wolf, but imo some of your scores are too high. It really doesn't deserve a 42.5/100. I mean, it only has one decent Queensryche sounding song on it. The rest are Geoff Tate and Friends and in most cases aren't even mediocre songs. Just my opinion. 

Yeah, I felt I may have been very generous, perhaps too much.  Nevertheless, as I said there were elements I did enjoy.

That's cool. Glad you enjoyed some of it.

[alirocker08]

Don't know if this has been brought up before, but on the Queensryche Youtube channel, the video for 'Wot We Do', has has the ratings disabled and they're controlling the comments that get let through.

I saw it last month and there was probably only one positive comment in a sea of negativity. Guessing that they couldn't handle the criticism.

[MasterShakezula]

Don't know if this has been brought up before, but on the Queensryche Youtube channel, the video for 'Wot We Do', has has the ratings disabled and they're controlling the comments that get let through.

I saw it last month and there was probably only one positive comment in a sea of negativity. Guessing that they couldn't handle the criticism.

This is Geoff Tate we' re talking about, here.  He has kind of become the MJ of metal/prog/what-ever-post-1997-QR-is-sposed-to-be.