@TAC, Stadler, Jingleboy:
I'm trying to be level-headed here. I'm open to being proven wrong. Insults do not prove me wrong. Condemnation does not prove me wrong. Generally, I'm looking for a tight, logical argument, pointing out exactly why what I said is "chauvinistic." I understand that chauvinism is the belief that men are superior to women. I do not believe that. I believe we are entitled to the same natural rights. I think people should try to be the best version of themselves, and good marriage will involve both parties helping each other do just that. So, I need you to identify for me exactly where I am saying something chauvinistic.
But seriously, at age 29, I am woefully unsuccessful in romance
No....really?
Yeah, really. I had a few relationships in my mid-20s, but they didn't work out. One case was bad chemistry (we couldn't talk), one case was bad circumstances (she was about 10 years older and wanted to settle soon), and one case was, to be frank, a failure because we were both losers. She had alcohol and mental problems, and I had no ambition in life. I've had a few years to think about this, and I do believe that I've been a loser for most of my adult life. I do think I'm turning it around, though, and am on a very good upward trajectory.
Disclaimer: I am religious and believe the following things as assumptions, so take everything I say with a grain of salt: (i) divorce is not acceptable except in cases of adultery, (ii) sex before marriage is not OK, (iii) artificial birth control is not OK, and (iv) husbands and wives are duty-bound to serve each other. I just want to get that out of the way before saying anything else, because it shapes how I think about things.
OK, good. Hold that thought...
I do mean that stuff.
Losing attraction for my future spouse is one of my biggest fears and a major reason why I've been cautious about getting involved in romantic entanglements. I often look at older men and their wives and I ask myself, "Would I trade places with them?" Very often, I think to myself, no way in hell. I see hippopotamuses with bob-cuts, and that makes me want to nope out of the marriage path real quick. There is no problem with getting older, getting stretch marks, getting crows feet, but some people really do let themselves go. Call me a sexist pig, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who just puts in no effort to look good.
This has to be one of the most fucked up paragraphs I've read in my 17 years on DTF.
Thanks.
Why on earth would you have a fear of losing attraction. What if you marry someone that is smoking hot but turns into a real bitch, but stays hot? Is that OK? You're attracted to her still right?
Just because I have a fear of losing attraction doesn't mean I also have other fears, like those you brought up.
Why are you worried about hippos? Just look at us here on DTF. Everyone here has married up. No hippos here that I've seen. Hippos are out there for sure but how is that a worry at all? What if you married a wonderful girl who gave you 3 wonderful children. Guess what...birth weight can be difficult to lose. What do you do then? Bodies change as you get older.
As for DTF mens' wives, I have no clue what anyone looks like. I'm just talking about what I have seen in the world around me. As for bodies changing, I acknowledge and appreciate that. They can also fluctuate, too, within a given year.
As far as trading places with them...nope. You become them, and you'll have a smartass 29 y/o looking at you funny.
Thanks? But surely, you'd recognize that it's good to look at people further along than you and learn from mistakes they've made, and see what they have in their life that you wouldn't want in yours, be it posture problems or hippo wives.
I'm also super fearful of being with a woman who loses her sex drive. That would be agonizing and frustrating to break out of.
What happens if it's YOU that loses their sex drive? Huh??
Sure, I'm fearful of that, too. But I can be fearful of both things, can't I?
In light of my fears, my game plan is to wait until I'm older, am done with grad school, have a ginormous income and a lot of money, and then go for a younger woman. I'm thinking that when I'm 36 I'll go for a 25-yr-old. That way, I'll have a lot to offer, and she's younger and therefore will have a longer sex life, and there isn't much biological pressure to have kids ASAP because fertility issues are not yet present. Preferably someone from a family-oriented community where the women value child-rearing, cooking, cleaning, family, etc.. I know I'm a pig for this, but it results in the best situation for me, so, yeah, sorry not sorry. And she's taken care of--it's a win-win for everyone. I play the long game and I'm overly cautious of bad marriage outcomes.
Maybe I spoke too soon above....
WTF is this? That sounds like a great plan. You could also open a Playboy Mansion while you're at it.
Where is that coming from? I am not promiscuous at all and have no desire to be. I have no interest in "plate spinning" or whatever the red pill people talk about. I don't want to build a harem, jeez. I'm interested in optimizing the odds of a happy marriage. And a happy marriage for me would involve ready, willing sex. If I had reason to think that girl X wouldn't readily have sex with me, I wouldn't marry X. Doesn't that sound reasonable?
Sure a 25 y/o girl has a longer sex life, especially compared to her 36 y/o husband, whose sex life shortens by the year.
I understand women have a tighter fertility window. Men experience a decline in fertility, but women become literally infertile. There are increased risks from old sperm, but the risks aren't nearly as severe as old eggs. So I do understand that there is a minor, minor cost to waiting. But I think the pros outweigh this con here.
What happens when she's 45 and you're 56? Let me tell you brother, no one bats 1.000 at that age.
I'll last longer, I guess. *shrugs*
Seems like the only long game you're thinking is your 29 y/o dick. And you are a pig for thinking this stuff. As you say sorry not sorry.
You are basically ensuring a bad marriage outcome, as you put it.
Why, exactly, is that? What exactly is going to be the problem with my plan as I have described it? Do you have a better plan for optimizing success or for avoiding those pitfalls I said I was afraid of?
And that thought about being religious? I'm calling bullshit on that.
You don't get to tell me that. I decide that.
I was 46 when I got divorced. I generally have no rules (that aren't also laws) when it comes to dating, but it only took me about two weeks to decide that "under 30" was generally off limits to me. I told this story before, but I swear it's true. Talking to a very cute 26 year old at a bar, and in the course of the conversation I said "you look like Susannah Hoffs" (she did). "Who?" "Susannah Hoffs. The Bangles." "Who?" "The Bangles. Walk Like An Egyptian?" "Who?" "What are you, a fucking owl?" Okay, so I didn't say the last one, but the rest, yep.
I wouldn't date under 30 if I were 46, either, man. 36 to 25 is a fair distance though, wouldn't you think?
H2, I don't know that all of that is "sexist" but I do believe most of that is wishful thinking. If you don't get swept off your feet by the love of your life, you're not going to be any less afraid of those things when your older and have "ginormous cash". And if you do get swept off your feet by the love of your life, you're not going to give a SHIT about those things you're worried about.
Thanks, I appreciate your words of wisdom. In the end, the latter circumstance will probably be what happens and I won't make a rational decision.
*quoting TAC*
+1 to all of this.
Stads was far more gracious in his retort than I'm about to be, because I'm literally disgusted there are men like this out there that view a relationship/marriage the way that H describes.
OK, let me hear SPECIFICALLY what the disgusting part is, and why. Your reply to me, if I may be forthright, is an emotional outburst of disgust, but it is not a rational critique. I'm just not going to be swayed by emotional outbursts. Please come down to my level and give me a cold, rational critique of why my reasoning is flawed.
I'll also throw out the rhetorical question of what to ensures that YOU (H) don't become a hippo, or a weathered old grape who grows eyebrows like Abe Bagota, earlobes that sag to your shoulders, balls to your knees, and a boiler you can rest your beer on while sitting upright? Where's the guarantee that you'll keep the will, drive, ability, time and motivation to remain an (apparent) Adonis-like physical specimen? How are you so assured that at 36, you'll be some hotshot big-swingin-dick that 25 year-old hotties are gonna trip over to throw their pussy at you?
OK, what I'm gonna say is gonna trigger you even more, but I don't think a man's looks matter as much as a woman's. I think the man's income is proportional to the woman's looks. I'm sorry, this is just what I see! Reality is often disappointing. I'm not 100% sure that "at 36, [I'll] be some hotshot big-swingin-dick that 25 year-old hotties are gonna trip over to throw their pussy at [me]." But waiting until that time is the best chance I have, I think, at success. I do believe in myself. So I'll roll the dice. Assume the worst--I am a 2/10 neckbeard who's as good-looking as I'll ever get. Do you think I have a better strategy available to me? Why shouldn't I bide my time and build my assets so I can offer something better?
That post was the egregious epitome of vanity, arrogance and selfishness. If all that matters is younger sex, just get a subscription to an escort service, because you are beyond shallow, and that would fulfill your needs. I really hope you're intention was to troll the group (though I suspect not), cuz otherwise ... well, I said it to open this paragraph.
Hear me out. The original problem, as I saw it, was: how, as a man, do you find yourself in a marriage where you have a wife who voluntarily wants to please you sexually? Most men don't want to be in a situation where their wives don't try to look good and refuse sex. So how do you avoid that? I'm not claiming to
know, but the paradigm I've adopted for myself is that I have to offer as much as possible, and, as an average-looking, somewhat short, dopey guy like me, that requires (but of course is not limited to) having a sizable income, and in my case, that means waiting a few years. Trust me, I think there are really important things besides that: Integrity. Having values. Being responsible. Dressing well. Staying fit. Etc.. But no matter how hard I try, and for most guys, unless they are male models or something, there is a limit to how much you can really improve yourself, and I believe a man can make up for those hard limits by improving his income. At least for myself, this is what I see. Bro, you don't know this, but I live in the cheapest apartment in town, I have no car, I have a job that pays right above poverty level. Do you think chicks at 29 want to date a 29-year-old with no car, and no house, and who lives in an apartment where the roof leaks every time it rains? Imagine the best case scenario for me, where I am a literal saint. Still I'm not gonna pull anyone.