Is metal by far the most misunderstood genre?

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

Here's an example to back up what I'm saying.

Consider the following lyrics from Opeth's "Serenity Painted Death":

*snip*

Imagine Mikael Akerfedlt using his "nice singing voice" for this part. It would sound fucking ridiculous. The lyrics, the message, the music being played, all DEMAND growled vocals. If he softly crooned lyrics about murdering an entire village while guitars and drums blaze with ferocity behind him, it would sound like a weak parody. 

I don't see why an actual melody (which would be, of course, appropriately dark for the subject matter) would weaken this piece. This is coming, of course, from someone who hasn't heard the piece in question.

Because normal voice wouldn't near show the intensity necessary for some things.

Saying growls are bad because they have no melody is like insulting the drums for having no melody, and requesting all bands use xylophone instead.

[Gadough]

Also, I'll say what I always say in regards to growls. The voice is an instrument, and if you can handle the distortion of a guitar, you should be able to handle the distortion of a voice.

There's a huge difference between a guitar and a voice.  A guitar is synthetic, a human voice is organic.  Most people, if they saw a mechanical bird with 3 eyes, would say, "wow, that's cool", or maybe that it's weird, or useless.  But if you saw a bird in nature with a 3rd eye in the middle of it's forehead, chances are you're going to be feel disturbed, or upset, or grossed out.

I'd be like, "kickass dude! Where are my Poke Balls?"

But seriously, I don't see much of a difference between the two. I understand your point. But I view them as one and the same, or if not that, at least worthy of being viewed and understood in the same manner.

[Ravenheart]

There's a fine line between growls and guitar distortion.

[WindMaster]

Although Opeth is instrumentally a great band, I can't listen to much of their catalog because the vocals are so silly. I'd like to know why Akerfeldt insists on growling when his clean vocals are so nice.

Because that is part of their sound and style.  That is like saying, "I'd like to know why Dream Theater insists on shredding when their slower playing is so nice."  Just like shredding is part of DT, growling is part of Opeth.  Deal with it, or don't listen.

I understand that; I chose the second option, which is not to listen to any of their albums but Heritage. However, I also think that "DT should play just slower stuff, it's much nicer than the shredding they do so often" is a perfectly legitimate thing to say about them. Maybe you don't get shredding and you think it sounds stupid, but you still think DT is a talented group of people that you would totally listen to if they did less shredding. This is just called having an opinion about things.

But this is far and away not what I was getting at with my comment. My point was that even a person who understands metal enough to be on this board might ask "Why does Akerfeldt do so much growling?"; failing to understand metal isn't the problem. I get that Opeth has a certain style, and I hypothetically understand the appeal of screamed vocals, what with their extreme emotion. But I still think it sounds silly. I understand screaming. I just don't like it.

Here's an example to back up what I'm saying.

Consider the following lyrics from Opeth's "Serenity Painted Death":

*snip*

Imagine Mikael Akerfedlt using his "nice singing voice" for this part. It would sound fucking ridiculous. The lyrics, the message, the music being played, all DEMAND growled vocals. If he softly crooned lyrics about murdering an entire village while guitars and drums blaze with ferocity behind him, it would sound like a weak parody. 

I don't see why an actual melody (which would be, of course, appropriately dark for the subject matter) would weaken this piece. This is coming, of course, from someone who hasn't heard the piece in question.

Go listen to it, and you'll see why clean singing wouldn't fit.

[Gorille85]

Some people don't like growls, fine. But you can't deny that it's pretty important in extreme metal. Just listen to some Gojira. Minus the growls it's not the same band, and it wouldn't fit at all.

[Zantera]

Some people don't like growls, fine. But you can't deny that it's pretty important in extreme metal. Just listen to some Gojira. Minus the growls it's not the same band, and it wouldn't fit at all.

Yeah I agree. I think really heavy or extreme metal needs harsher vocals. There are a few exceptions, Devin Townsend has some really heavy stuff without really growling (though he has a few screams) but generally I think heavier music would sound lame with soft vocals.

[Gadough]

That Gojira song is a fantastic example, Marc.

For me, growls add so much power when utilized correctly. Heavy guitars, pounding drums, thundering bass, and growling. It all just fits. I'm no expert in music, so it's difficult for me to put my thoughts into words here. All I know is that to my ears, it sounds good, and it sounds right.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

I'll admit I used to hate growls, but then I got to see the point of them. Now I think they're great, except in some bands, like I hate the ones in Periphery.

[theseoafs]

Because normal voice wouldn't near show the intensity necessary for some things.

Saying growls are bad because they have no melody is like insulting the drums for having no melody, and requesting all bands use xylophone instead.

Where am I, at the Linguistics Cafe? Because everybody here is putting words in my mouth!

I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER said that the reason growls were bad was because they don't have melody. (I never even said growls were bad. They're not good or bad; they're just growls. I said I found them silly and I would prefer Akerfeldt to always sing cleanly.)

If we're going to have a discussion on this topic, we're going to have to learn to make relevant arguments.

EDIT: ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever,

[Gadough]

So what you're saying, theseoafs, is that you think growls are bad because they don't have melody.

Whatever. I disagree with you, but I respect your opinion anyway.

[MasterShakezula]

I think Jazz is the most misunderstood genre.

People assume it's all dissonant chords and tuneless twiddling that only jazz fans can appreciate.

And that it's incredibly boring to learn, play or listen to....


In reality, it's actually much worse than that.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're joking. 

[Gorille85]

I think Jazz is the most misunderstood genre.

People assume it's all dissonant chords and tuneless twiddling that only jazz fans can appreciate.

And that it's incredibly boring to learn, play or listen to....


In reality, it's actually much worse than that.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're joking.

It wouldn't surprise me. Kotowboy seems to be pretty close-minded music-wise.

[Dark Castle]

Because normal voice wouldn't near show the intensity necessary for some things.

Saying growls are bad because they have no melody is like insulting the drums for having no melody, and requesting all bands use xylophone instead.

Where am I, at the Linguistics Cafe? Because everybody here is putting words in my mouth!

I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER said that the reason growls were bad was because they don't have melody. (I never even said growls were bad. They're not good or bad; they're just growls. I said I found them silly and I would prefer Akerfeldt to always sing cleanly.)

If we're going to have a discussion on this topic, we're going to have to learn to make relevant arguments.

EDIT: ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever,

So they're silly?  I actually find that more insulting.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

Because normal voice wouldn't near show the intensity necessary for some things.

Saying growls are bad because they have no melody is like insulting the drums for having no melody, and requesting all bands use xylophone instead.

Where am I, at the Linguistics Cafe? Because everybody here is putting words in my mouth!

I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER said that the reason growls were bad was because they don't have melody. (I never even said growls were bad. They're not good or bad; they're just growls. I said I found them silly and I would prefer Akerfeldt to always sing cleanly.)

If we're going to have a discussion on this topic, we're going to have to learn to make relevant arguments.

EDIT: ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever,

So they're silly?  I actually find that more insulting.

This.

And if you don't wanna be misconstrued that way, don't outright say you wish he sang something with melody instead of growls.

[WindMaster]

Because normal voice wouldn't near show the intensity necessary for some things.

Saying growls are bad because they have no melody is like insulting the drums for having no melody, and requesting all bands use xylophone instead.

Where am I, at the Linguistics Cafe? Because everybody here is putting words in my mouth!

I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER said that the reason growls were bad was because they don't have melody. (I never even said growls were bad. They're not good or bad; they're just growls. I said I found them silly and I would prefer Akerfeldt to always sing cleanly.)

If we're going to have a discussion on this topic, we're going to have to learn to make relevant arguments.

EDIT: ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever,

So they're silly?  I actually find that more insulting.

This.

And if you don't wanna be misconstrued that way, don't outright say you wish he sang something with melody instead of growls.

but that's still not saying he doesn't like growls. Theseoafs never specifically stated that he doesn't like growls.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

Because normal voice wouldn't near show the intensity necessary for some things.

Saying growls are bad because they have no melody is like insulting the drums for having no melody, and requesting all bands use xylophone instead.

Where am I, at the Linguistics Cafe? Because everybody here is putting words in my mouth!

I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER said that the reason growls were bad was because they don't have melody. (I never even said growls were bad. They're not good or bad; they're just growls. I said I found them silly and I would prefer Akerfeldt to always sing cleanly.)

If we're going to have a discussion on this topic, we're going to have to learn to make relevant arguments.

EDIT: ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever,

So they're silly?  I actually find that more insulting.

This.

And if you don't wanna be misconstrued that way, don't outright say you wish he sang something with melody instead of growls.

but that's still not saying he doesn't like growls. Theseoafs never specifically stated that he doesn't like growls.

I realize he is now saying that. I don't really understand, but I know he now said it.

[theseoafs]

So what you're saying, theseoafs, is that you think growls are bad because they don't have melody.

Whatever. I disagree with you, but I respect your opinion anyway.

lol

[Nick]

While I quite agree with your point, and agree harsh vocals should be used to express certain emotions, an entire album of this is just laughable.

Why is a whole album of harsh vocals laughable?  Just because you don't like an album full of harsh vocals, doesn't mean others don't like it.  I love an album full of them, and most of the music I listen to would make no sense to have clean vocals over them.

We all have our likes and dislikes, and I just don't like my albums sounding like shit.

Growling can be an effective technique, but I honestly can't understand how anyone values them as a primary vocal approach.

Also, if an album you listen to can't have clean vocals because the lyrics are that dark and angry for the entire album then I simply find the lyrics laughable, and in the end the record will likely still sound like garbage to me.

[Dark Castle]

While I quite agree with your point, and agree harsh vocals should be used to express certain emotions, an entire album of this is just laughable.

Why is a whole album of harsh vocals laughable?  Just because you don't like an album full of harsh vocals, doesn't mean others don't like it.  I love an album full of them, and most of the music I listen to would make no sense to have clean vocals over them.

We all have our likes and dislikes, and I just don't like my albums sounding like shit.

Growling can be an effective technique, but I honestly can't understand how anyone values them as a primary vocal approach.

Also, if an album you listen to can't have clean vocals because the lyrics are that dark and angry for the entire album then I simply find the lyrics laughable, and in the end the record will likely still sound like garbage to me.

Holy fuck you have extremely rude opinions that are extremely closeminded.  Lyrics aren't the only reason for growling vocals, Napalm Death's music would make no sense whatsoever to have angsty clean vocals, it would not blend at all, also the fact that you're assuming lyrics for growling are dumbed down dark and angry is so stupid.

[Nick]

While I quite agree with your point, and agree harsh vocals should be used to express certain emotions, an entire album of this is just laughable.

Why is a whole album of harsh vocals laughable?  Just because you don't like an album full of harsh vocals, doesn't mean others don't like it.  I love an album full of them, and most of the music I listen to would make no sense to have clean vocals over them.

We all have our likes and dislikes, and I just don't like my albums sounding like shit.

Growling can be an effective technique, but I honestly can't understand how anyone values them as a primary vocal approach.

Also, if an album you listen to can't have clean vocals because the lyrics are that dark and angry for the entire album then I simply find the lyrics laughable, and in the end the record will likely still sound like garbage to me.

Holy fuck you have extremely rude opinions that are extremely closeminded.  Lyrics aren't the only reason for growling vocals, Napalm Death's music would make no sense whatsoever to have angsty clean vocals, it would not blend at all, also the fact that you're assuming lyrics for growling are dumbed down dark and angry is so stupid.

How are my opinions rude? There are all things about music we don't like, growling is one of the things that generally really turn me off. I realize that lyrics are not the only reason for growling, but as was talked about in earlier discussion I find it to be one of the justifiable reasons for growling, and if the lyrics of an album are all extreme enough to justify growling then I would do some major loling at the lyrics (if I could understand any of them). Lyrics aside I generally pay far more attention to vocal melodies than I do actual lyrics, and growling generally doesn't do anything for me, and in many cases of its application it ends up destroying what I think is otherwise fantastic music.

And if thinking everyone who dislikes growling is close-minded lets you sleep better at night, then by all means keep going with that approach whenever a discussion comes up.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

So if an albums lyrics are all extreme, then it's laughable? I really don't understand at all.

[theseoafs]

This thread is ridiculous. Let's take a few steps back.

I originally posted in this thread because I wanted to show that "growling" and "metal" don't really have anything to do with each other intrinsically. I wanted to voice my opinion as a person who understands metal, but doesn't like growling, because that's what the thread was about. Along the way, people with Akerfeldt boners got all pissy and offended that I don't see the attraction in growling, ignoring everything else that I had to say.

Is anyone in this thread really talking about the subject at hand, or is everyone just trying to convince me that I was wrong and that I should be listening to music with growling right now? Because this is something I really am not interested in discussing.

[Dark Castle]

While I quite agree with your point, and agree harsh vocals should be used to express certain emotions, an entire album of this is just laughable.

Why is a whole album of harsh vocals laughable?  Just because you don't like an album full of harsh vocals, doesn't mean others don't like it.  I love an album full of them, and most of the music I listen to would make no sense to have clean vocals over them.

We all have our likes and dislikes, and I just don't like my albums sounding like shit.

Growling can be an effective technique, but I honestly can't understand how anyone values them as a primary vocal approach.

Also, if an album you listen to can't have clean vocals because the lyrics are that dark and angry for the entire album then I simply find the lyrics laughable, and in the end the record will likely still sound like garbage to me.

That there, in the bold basically equates to you saying that growls are shitty, and you can't possibly understand how anyone like it, all the while saying how laughable and garbage it sounds.  Granted to you, but still, I find that rude.  My father while he doesn't like growls at least has the courtesy to acknowledge that growls add something to the music, and while he doesn't enjoy them, he sees how people can.  People who don't like growls should at least have that much courtesy, which from reading this thread, many people don't.

[ehra]

Why do metal vocalists have to growl all the time? Why can't they use more clean vocals!

Why do power metal singers have to be so high all the time? Why can't they just sing like men!

Why do metal bands use so much double bass all the time? Why can't they just chill out for a bit!

Why do prog bands use keyboards so much? Why can't they just play real metal!

Why do Noise bands just make a bunch of noise? Why can't they just make normal music!

Why does techno have so many bleeps and bloops. Why can't they just play an instrument?

Why does bands do things I don't care for? Why can't they just do thing I like more!




Anyway, this discussion always gets stupid fast. Growls are a technique, just like anything else in music. Some artists use it more than others because they feel it best suits the music they're making. Making blanket statements like "an entire album of *established, widely used musical technique* is just silly!" seems like a dumb thing to say because someone could very well put that technique to use in a way that you end up finding appealing. You know, since we're talking about tools/techniques and not finished products. No one bitches about A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte for being a painting made entirely out of dots. Doesn't that sound stupid? A painting made of nothing but tiny dots? Man that'd be silly.



Oh, and dubstep is the most misunderstood genre.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

Why do metal vocalists have to growl all the time? Why can't they use more clean vocals!

Why do power metal singers have to be so high all the time? Why can't they just sing like men!

Why do metal bands use so much double bass all the time? Why can't they just chill out for a bit!

Why do prog bands use keyboards so much? Why can't they just play real metal!

Why do Noise bands just make a bunch of noise? Why can't they just make normal music!

Why does techno have so many bleeps and bloops. Why can't they just play an instrument?

Why does bands do things I don't care for? Why can't they just do thing I like more!




Anyway, this discussion always gets stupid fast. Growls are a technique, just like anything else in music. Some artists use it more than others because they feel it best suits the music they're making. Making blanket statements like "an entire album of *established, widely used musical technique* is just silly!" seems like a dumb thing to say because someone could very well put that technique to use in a way that you end up finding appealing. You know, since we're talking about tools and not finished products.



Oh, and dubstep is the most misunderstood genre.

I completely agree with all of this. Including the dubstep statement. I don't know how I forgot to mention that, but dubstep is indeed the most misunderstood I'd say.

[Nick]

While I quite agree with your point, and agree harsh vocals should be used to express certain emotions, an entire album of this is just laughable.

Why is a whole album of harsh vocals laughable?  Just because you don't like an album full of harsh vocals, doesn't mean others don't like it.  I love an album full of them, and most of the music I listen to would make no sense to have clean vocals over them.

We all have our likes and dislikes, and I just don't like my albums sounding like shit.

Growling can be an effective technique, but I honestly can't understand how anyone values them as a primary vocal approach.

Also, if an album you listen to can't have clean vocals because the lyrics are that dark and angry for the entire album then I simply find the lyrics laughable, and in the end the record will likely still sound like garbage to me.

That there, in the bold basically equates to you saying that growls are shitty, and you can't possibly understand how anyone like it, all the while saying how laughable and garbage it sounds.  Granted to you, but still, I find that rude.  My father while he doesn't like growls at least has the courtesy to acknowledge that growls add something to the music, and while he doesn't enjoy them, he sees how people can.  People who don't like growls should at least have that much courtesy, which from reading this thread, many people don't.

I said earlier in the thread that growls can be used well and in a manner I like. I think as an effect, as an added spice to a song or album they can be used well and add to the album. Some of my favorite examples are how Riverside, Ayreon, and often Amorphis use growls. This thread was discussing growls, and I've given my opinion on them, I know you don't like it but I hardly find it rude. Had I come into your top 50 thread and make some major stink about how all the albums with growls are garbage or something similar that would be rude, but I'm not about to do something like that.

This thread is ridiculous. Let's take a few steps back.

I originally posted in this thread because I wanted to show that "growling" and "metal" don't really have anything to do with each other intrinsically. I wanted to voice my opinion as a person who understands metal, but doesn't like growling, because that's what the thread was about. Along the way, people with Akerfeldt boners got all pissy and offended that I don't see the attraction in growling, ignoring everything else that I had to say.

Is anyone in this thread really talking about the subject at hand, or is everyone just trying to convince me that I was wrong and that I should be listening to music with growling right now? Because this is something I really am not interested in discussing.

I absolutely agree with you. I can't tell you how many times people think metal = black/death metal and completely write off the entire rest of the genre. On the flip side I remember walking into breakfast one morning and almost having an aneurism as I heard a fat gothic looking chick say the following to the person she was with. Paraphrased: "I don't see why so many people call Iron Maiden a metal band, Bruce Dickinson isn't even a metal vocalist, he's never done any sort of extreme vocals."

I swear to god it took everything in my power not to launch into rage mode and destroy her.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

This thread is ridiculous. Let's take a few steps back.

I originally posted in this thread because I wanted to show that "growling" and "metal" don't really have anything to do with each other intrinsically. I wanted to voice my opinion as a person who understands metal, but doesn't like growling, because that's what the thread was about. Along the way, people with Akerfeldt boners got all pissy and offended that I don't see the attraction in growling, ignoring everything else that I had to say.

Is anyone in this thread really talking about the subject at hand, or is everyone just trying to convince me that I was wrong and that I should be listening to music with growling right now? Because this is something I really am not interested in discussing.

I absolutely agree with you. I can't tell you how many times people think metal = black/death metal and completely write off the entire rest of the genre. On the flip side I remember walking into breakfast one morning and almost having an aneurism as I heard a fat gothic looking chick say the following to the person she was with. Paraphrased: "I don't see why so many people call Iron Maiden a metal band, Bruce Dickinson isn't even a metal vocalist, he's never done any sort of extreme vocals."

I swear to god it took everything in my power not to launch into rage mode and destroy her.

I'm pretty sure we can all agree on this.

[theseoafs]

Okay. Good. That's really all I was saying. If you want to disagree with me and try to convert me to a growl-lover (it won't work, by the by), then whatever, but I don't want to discuss that. I wanted to discuss what the thread was initially about. It seemed odd to me that the OP thought "What? Less growls? This dude doesn't even understand metal!" and left it at that, because growling is not metal.

[Ben_Jamin]

I enjoy when growls are used well. But if they're used all the time, especially if they're undistinguishable, I'll just listen to the music instead, loads of bands do this.

Vildhjarta is awesome because they have one guy for the grunts and another for screams. Both two different aspects of growling.

I also sometimes don't like high pitch singers, and I've seen people praise them a, lot when a softer toned voice would suit better.

I've tried imagining different styles of singing for many songs, especially Coheed and Cambria as their songs would suit a lower powered voice. Which is one reason I really enjoy Ayreon.

[pain of occupation]

wow. intense thread.

just thought i'd tell anyone that thinks the heaviest opeth sections require growls to revisit the best song off watershed (doesn't even need to be named as we're all in agreement). in them first two verses, mikael is going back n forth between lines of clean vox and lines of growls - and musically they actually get heavier underneath the clean lines, switching into blastbeat mode...ya, its some pretty deadly shit  i'd love to hear him utilize more clean vox over that much heaviness (and that's not to complain about his growling at all).

[Fluffy Lothario]

To the extreme metal fans who, as they always do in these discussions, try to appeal to some open-mindedness which would allow all us simple heathens to "understand" using growls/screams: how about, as you never seem to do, you try to practice the same sense of empathy? Even if you like it, surely you can still hear that extreme metal is hardly a walk in the park. You honestly can't understand why some people aren't interested, why they wouldn't want to listen to death growls (especially if they don't like metal in the first place), and how they might go a bit further and think it sounds ridiculous, silly, laughable, etc? Not even a little bit? I mean, if you can't do that, then how close-minded are you?

Anyway, rap is a pretty good answer. Another hugely misunderstood genre is "world" music, considering it's not even remotely a genre at all. Hey, let's lump all traditional and non-Western forms of music in the entire world under one term. After all, who would want to listen to any of it, apart from hippies and posers who want to pretend to meditate?

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

To the extreme metal fans who, as they always do in these discussions, try to appeal to some open-mindedness which would allow all us simple heathens to "understand" using growls/screams: how about, as you never seem to do, you try to practice the same sense of empathy? Even if you like it, surely you can still hear that extreme metal is hardly a walk in the park. You honestly can't understand why some people aren't interested, why they wouldn't want to listen to death growls (especially if they don't like metal in the first place), and how they might go a bit further and think it sounds ridiculous, silly, laughable, etc? Not even a little bit? I mean, if you can't do that, then how close-minded are you?

I wouldn't consider myself an extreme metal fan. Also, we aren't being close-minded. By your logic:

Growling can be an effective technique, but I honestly can't understand how anyone values them as a primary vocal approach.

How is that not close-minded? It's saying about the same thing we are, only turned the other way.

Sucky 5000th post. Oh well.

(edited to make it sound less angry, since I don't like sounding like that so much)

[Dark Castle]

To the extreme metal fans who, as they always do in these discussions, try to appeal to some open-mindedness which would allow all us simple heathens to "understand" using growls/screams: how about, as you never seem to do, you try to practice the same sense of empathy? Even if you like it, surely you can still hear that extreme metal is hardly a walk in the park. You honestly can't understand why some people aren't interested, why they wouldn't want to listen to death growls (especially if they don't like metal in the first place), and how they might go a bit further and think it sounds ridiculous, silly, laughable, etc? Not even a little bit? I mean, if you can't do that, then how close-minded are you?

Anyway, rap is a pretty good answer. Another hugely misunderstood genre is "world" music, considering it's not even remotely a genre at all. Hey, let's lump all traditional and non-Western forms of music in the entire world under one term. After all, who would want to listen to any of it, apart from hippies and posers who want to pretend to meditate?

Um, I'm not saying clean vocals are garbage, like a lot of people who don't like growling are saying growling is.  I'm sure being close minded.  I enjoy plenty of bands that don't have growling whatsoever.

[ehra]

You honestly can't understand why some people aren't interested, why they wouldn't want to listen to death growls (especially if they don't like metal in the first place), and how they might go a bit further and think it sounds ridiculous, silly, laughable, etc?

Can I understand how people who otherwise claim to be people who love music and are open minded in their appreciation of music can then turn around, point at a widely used musical technique and claim that not only can they not even comprehend how anyone else would value it, but also say that the technique in of itself is (regardless of any context if may or may not be used in) "ridiculous, silly, laughable, ect"? No, I can't. Especially from fans of a genre that has its own share of close minded detractors like prog.

Also, nice bait and switch. No one has any issue with people who "aren't interested" or simply "wouldn't want to listen to death growls (especially if they don't like metal in the first place)". If this discussion were about widespread use of double bass in metal and people were calling the use double bass to be "ridiculous, silly, laughable, ect" and other people were arguing against that claim I wonder if you'd still be saying the people arguing are "close-minded" for not being able to emphasize with people for not accepting it.

Calling it "ridiculous, silly, laughable, ect" isn't just a simple, harmless "It's not for me" or "I don't like it" statement. It's a claim that it's a less legitimate, less valid form of musical expression. Which, coming from your average Joe that just listens to what's on the radio or readily admits they only like a specific type of music, I could completely understand. Not from people who otherwise show a more widespread appreciation for music for music's sake. It's like the literary critics or scholars whose brain ooze out their ears whenever the topic of Fantasy comes up.

[Zantera]

Interesting how this thread has become a "Growl vs no growl" discussion, but I could see it coming really.
As for the topic, it doesn't bother me if someone doesn't like growls, but when they start using words like "laughable", "silly" and "ridiculous" it does bother me, because then it's said in a condescending way.