*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[crystalstars17]

I mean, I'm also not a fan of all their old stuff. I just can't connect with their way of writing on the last 3 or so albums. It's just a me thing. Something about how they write songs/melodies/riffs, etc., with a few minor exceptions, just doesn't do anything for me.

Oh I get you! It's just in general something I've noticed in the fandom, and not just here. Your comment just reminded me of it.

I think there's enough for everyone to find what they love (and don't). With 30+ years of music everyone's bound to love some things and even strongly dislike others. I think it's the same with any band that's been around as long.

[wolfking]

Cheers for the replies lads.  I'll put it away and get it out again in a couple of weeks I think.  Or I'll see if I have any urge to.  I haven't checked any live performances from the tour at all so really interested actually to watch a couple of the title track.  Hopefully there's a couple of quality ones out there.

I loved it from the start and grew on me with more listens, but that's only me. I don't think anyone should try that hard to like any album. If its not grabbing you there's nothing wrong with that. There's too much great music out there to force it. 

Agree 100%, but it is DT, so you have to make a bit more of an effort than most bands I feel.

At this point, I don't feel like going back to it, but that's okay.

[TAC]

Cheers for the replies lads.  I'll put it away and get it out again in a couple of weeks I think.  Or I'll see if I have any urge to.  I haven't checked any live performances from the tour at all so really interested actually to watch a couple of the title track.  Hopefully there's a couple of quality ones out there.

I loved it from the start and grew on me with more listens, but that's only me. I don't think anyone should try that hard to like any album. If its not grabbing you there's nothing wrong with that. There's too much great music out there to force it. 

Agree 100%, but it is DT, so you have to make a bit more of an effort than most bands I feel.

At this point, I don't feel like going back to it, but that's okay.

Tell you what... I'll take your listens to AVFTTOTW if you take my listens to DT12.  Deal?

[wolfking]

Cheers for the replies lads.  I'll put it away and get it out again in a couple of weeks I think.  Or I'll see if I have any urge to.  I haven't checked any live performances from the tour at all so really interested actually to watch a couple of the title track.  Hopefully there's a couple of quality ones out there.

I loved it from the start and grew on me with more listens, but that's only me. I don't think anyone should try that hard to like any album. If its not grabbing you there's nothing wrong with that. There's too much great music out there to force it. 

Agree 100%, but it is DT, so you have to make a bit more of an effort than most bands I feel.

At this point, I don't feel like going back to it, but that's okay.

Tell you what... I'll take your listens to AVFTTOTW if you take my listens to DT12.  Deal?

Best deal I've been offered today.

[TAC]

Cheers for the replies lads.  I'll put it away and get it out again in a couple of weeks I think.  Or I'll see if I have any urge to.  I haven't checked any live performances from the tour at all so really interested actually to watch a couple of the title track.  Hopefully there's a couple of quality ones out there.

I loved it from the start and grew on me with more listens, but that's only me. I don't think anyone should try that hard to like any album. If its not grabbing you there's nothing wrong with that. There's too much great music out there to force it. 

Agree 100%, but it is DT, so you have to make a bit more of an effort than most bands I feel.

At this point, I don't feel like going back to it, but that's okay.

Tell you what... I'll take your listens to AVFTTOTW if you take my listens to DT12.  Deal?

Best deal I've been offered today.

I'm here for you, mate!

[Dream Team]

Nice write-up Wolfking. I remember being slammed repeatedly for my criticism of the constant chugging so I'm glad a respected poster like you also highlighted it. It's pretty freakin' obvious.

[goo-goo]

Nice write-up Wolfking. I remember being slammed repeatedly for my criticism of the constant chugging so I'm glad a respected poster like you also highlighted it. It's pretty freakin' obvious.

I still find the melodies (or lack of melodies as Wolfking put it) the weakness of this album. They are just not there, or are very weird and forced. Production is top notch and there are things here and there that make it very interesting and refreshing. But for me, the lack of melody is greatly highlighted for making this a forgettable album. DoT was catchy, great vocal melodies, awesome songs (At Wit's End is beautiful), and even the singles were intricate enough but still kept it good on the vocal melodies.

I do need to revisit a View like Wolfking did because I really wasn't in the mood since my wife and I were getting a divorce (initial stages were the emotional aspect is just dreadful). But this was the first album that DT didn't get me through a hard time in life.

I did catch them live and I must say, the live show is amazing, with piped vocals and everything. I don't go to DT shows to expect the old DT to come up. This lineup and presentation deserves all the praise...think of it as DT 2.0 (same applies to Opeth lol).

[Samsara]

I read the last few pages of this thread, plus Wolfking's thoughts on it. Here's my .02:

AVFTTOTW is a really good Dream Theater record. In some ways, it is the most "Dream Theater-like" record that they've made since Mangini joined the band. Many of you have broken down the tracks and made good points about sections and such. So I won't jump on that. I'll just go by "feel."

I think the last two records have been where a lot of bands DT's age are. You're not seeing a lot of new ground. You're seeing them come back around to do what they do really well. Fates Warning did it with Theories of Flight, and probably (IMO) didn't need to do Long Day Goodnight. But Theories really gave people the entirety of the Alder-era catalog in style in one nice big package that was one of the best albums of their career. I feel like between Distance Over Time and AVFTTOTW, we have that with Dream Theater.

The production is wonderful, the songs are solid, the musicianship top-notch, and I think James sounds wonderful on both.

Are they top-5 in DT's catalog? For me, no, and I am guessing for most, that would be no as well. But for me, they are by far more consistent and superior records to the handful that came before them. DT has seemed to dial in nowadays what they do well, and they are doing it.

Now if they did this five records into their career, that would be an issue for me. But looking at almost 40 years, and 15 records, it makes a lot of sense to me. They are still relevant, making new music, going out and supporting that new music (which I absolutely applaud, as some bands make new records and then don't play them, relegating them to nostalgia). Dream Theater is saying "this is who we are, we love our new music, here it is." As a fan since the mid-90s when I first heard them, and a proud fellow native Long Islander, I couldn't be happier that the band I loved in the 90s has come back these past two records and made albums that really encapsulate who they are, from a historical perspective.

There just comes a point where there aren't a lot of creative mountains to climb. Love it or hate it, I think The Astonishing taught Petrucci that. I'm not a fan, but I can appreciate the bold experiment. But I think most fans would agree, the direction wasn't quite...what we expect from Dream Theater. And then boom, records followed that very clearly were in the ballpark of what most know and love from DT.

A View From the Top of the World is a solid addition to the catalog that is exciting to listen to and while it may not break any new ground, it's a fun romp through what Dream Theater does best.

[Dream Team]

Perfectly stated!

[wolfking]

Nice write-up Wolfking. I remember being slammed repeatedly for my criticism of the constant chugging so I'm glad a respected poster like you also highlighted it. It's pretty freakin' obvious.

Things like that don't normally resonate or jump out to me all that much, but it was very obvious and prevalent as the album went on.

[wolfking]

Nice write-up Wolfking. I remember being slammed repeatedly for my criticism of the constant chugging so I'm glad a respected poster like you also highlighted it. It's pretty freakin' obvious.

I still find the melodies (or lack of melodies as Wolfking put it) the weakness of this album. They are just not there, or are very weird and forced. Production is top notch and there are things here and there that make it very interesting and refreshing. But for me, the lack of melody is greatly highlighted for making this a forgettable album. DoT was catchy, great vocal melodies, awesome songs (At Wit's End is beautiful), and even the singles were intricate enough but still kept it good on the vocal melodies.

I do need to revisit a View like Wolfking did because I really wasn't in the mood since my wife and I were getting a divorce (initial stages were the emotional aspect is just dreadful). But this was the first album that DT didn't get me through a hard time in life.

I did catch them live and I must say, the live show is amazing, with piped vocals and everything. I don't go to DT shows to expect the old DT to come up. This lineup and presentation deserves all the praise...think of it as DT 2.0 (same applies to Opeth lol).

Pretty much agree with this whole statement.  Well said.

Sorry about the divorce too mate.  Hope you're getting there.

[wolfking]

Nicely said Brian.  I can get on board with most of that.

[TAC]

I do need to revisit a View like Wolfking did because I really wasn't in the mood since my wife and I were getting a divorce (initial stages were the emotional aspect is just dreadful). But this was the first album that DT didn't get me through a hard time in life.

My first marriage ended not long after Awake was released, and it was a brutal time. I have such a connection to Space Dye Vest because of that time.

[wolfking]

Such a haunting song.  I have Awake in the car at the moment.

[KevShmev]

The constant chugging on this record bugged me at first as well, but I think I got used to it and don't even notice it anymore.

[Stadler]

I'm still not over the tattooing of the bass drum. The mix is better so it's more tolerable, but we're doing the rankings thread now, and it's the one thing that keeps each post-2010 album at least one or two slots lower - for each album - than they'd ordinarily be.

[TAC]

I'm still not over the tattooing of the bass drum.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

[Samsara]

I'm still not over the tattooing of the bass drum.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

I took it as constantly using the bass drum over and over again, hard.

[Stadler]

I'm still not over the tattooing of the bass drum.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

I took it as constantly using the bass drum over and over again, hard.

Exactly; I don't care for the combination of Mangini's style, which includes an aggressive use of the bass drum, and the mix, which puts that bass drum, IMO, prominently in the mix.  It seems to me - again, my impressions - that every song has at least one extended passage where there is the "rat-a-tat-tat" of the bass drum. Contrast that with, say, Kashmir, where there is literally two beats per bar. 

[emtee]

Subjectivity...I get it. But you do realize that Portnoy largely built his reputation upon heavy and consistent use of double bass as well as hand feet combinations. In this regard I see no difference between MM and MP. MP's detractors have always called out his constant use of dbl bass  A comparison between Bonzo, who rarely even used 2 bass drums, to MM or MP is kind of missing the core approaches and styles of the 3 drummers. Just one man's opinion though...to each his own.

[KevShmev]

emtee, I agree.  I lost track of how many times on the first 10 Dream Theater albums that Portnoy seemingly tried to beat his bass drums into submission with his feet (not a criticism, just an observation).  And his drums were always prominently in the mix, in a good way, so it's not like Mangini's are much louder than his were.  I just think the bass drumming on this record combined with the amount of guitar chugging makes it seem like it is more pronounced than normal when it really isn't.

[Stadler]

Subjectivity...I get it. But you do realize that Portnoy largely built his reputation upon heavy and consistent use of double bass as well as hand feet combinations. In this regard I see no difference between MM and MP. MP's detractors have always called out his constant use of dbl bass  A comparison between Bonzo, who rarely even used 2 bass drums, to MM or MP is kind of missing the core approaches and styles of the 3 drummers. Just one man's opinion though...to each his own.

I remember noticing on Images and Words - when I first got it - that "wow, that guy can SING!!!, but holy shit, does that drummer love the double bass!".   I get it.

For some reason, though, it's bothersome on the recent releases.  I don't know if it's the sound of the recording, the mix, or my head, or what.  I'm not suggesting there's math or science there, it's just what I notice. 

[DoctorAction]

I listened to the album (without IM) today for the first time in a while after reading this thread.

A solid listen. D/T is deffo my favourite MM/DT album but this is entertaining (and really consistent when you drop IM).

On the other hand: it's far from essential DT; it lacks the emotion and energy of its predecessor; and there are some VERY familiar DT arrangements across it.

Exceeds expectations for a late career album, in summary.

I'm repeating myself but would love to hear them recording live together in the studio as the basis for an album. Drop the click, get some proper vibe, dirt and meat down. Would be a step into something different and fresh without going too far away from their core strengths.

[Kram]

Subjectivity...I get it. But you do realize that Portnoy largely built his reputation upon heavy and consistent use of double bass as well as hand feet combinations. In this regard I see no difference between MM and MP. MP's detractors have always called out his constant use of dbl bass  A comparison between Bonzo, who rarely even used 2 bass drums, to MM or MP is kind of missing the core approaches and styles of the 3 drummers. Just one man's opinion though...to each his own.

I remember noticing on Images and Words - when I first got it - that "wow, that guy can SING!!!, but holy shit, does that drummer love the double bass!".   I get it.

For some reason, though, it's bothersome on the recent releases.  I don't know if it's the sound of the recording, the mix, or my head, or what.  I'm not suggesting there's math or science there, it's just what I notice.

emtee, I agree as well.  And Stadler - I think Kev hit the nail on the head with his post above.

[goo-goo]

The mix in Portnoy's drums were always top notch but I don't recall the bass drums being that loud. With Mangini's drums, it seems that they are put forward in the mix and are a bit more predominant because Mangini is following JP's rhythm guitar most of the time. So while MP and MM might use the double bass equally, MP didn't follow JP's rhythm guitar as much as MM. MM does follow it most of the time and that is why it sounds a bit more forward. I think with MP, JR followed JP's rhythm guitar more than he does now. To my ears, JR is now a bit more free with other keyboard sounds than just playing "rhythm guitar" with the keyboard. I do get Stads point of view and what he is trying to say. I don't know if I convey it properly myself but I do hear that difference. Remember Mangini is following the orchestration of the song, including the double bass and JP's guitars are part of that orchestration if that makes sense (I'm no musician and might be using terms incorrectly so please bear with me lol).

[gzarruk]

Portnoy used to get lots of criticism or his extensive use of RLKK* fills in a lot of stuff through the years. I've even seen that specific pattern called the Portnoy fill in some drum teaching environments

*If you don't know what I mean with this, THAT fill in PMU is a great example. You'll know which one I'm refering to

[goo-goo]

Portnoy used to get lots of criticism or his extensive use of RLKK* fills in a lot of stuff through the years. I've even seen that specific pattern called the Portnoy fill in some drum teaching environments

*If you don't know what I mean with this, THAT fill in PMU is a great example. You'll know which one I'm refering to

LOL. I've seen that too. Reminds me of the Carlos Santana guitar run that he is famous for and uses it in almost every single song.

[TAC]

I personally love excellent double bass work. I generally don't think it can be overdone.

I actually find that both MP and MM have very effective double bass styles.

MP seemed to use the double bass to enhance his drum patterns and MM seems to use it to enhance the bass (JM) patterns.

[wolfking]

I personally love excellent double bass work. I generally don't think it can be overdone.

I actually find that both MP and MM have very effective double bass styles.

MP seemed to use the double bass to enhance his drum patterns and MM seems to use it to enhance the bass (JM) patterns.

Yeah, I'm all good with whatever, double bass is always welcome for me.  Both are great, but I've always just liked MP's drum style more on a whole.

[Architeuthis]

I like double bass when it's used at the right times. Portnoy,  Peart, and Mangini are great examples and they don't overdo it. 
That's why I can't listen to Dragonforce for more than a couple of songs.  It seems that the drummer is on a double kick marathon.  Just way over the top. 

[crystalstars17]

Dragonforce

😍

Not a connoisseur of drums, but I love Dragonforce! Marc Hudson's vocals are the cat's meow! 🤩 Absolutely flawless live!!!

[Stadler]

I like double bass when it's used at the right times. Portnoy,  Peart, and Mangini are great examples and they don't overdo it. 
That's why I can't listen to Dragonforce for more than a couple of songs.  It seems that the drummer is on a double kick marathon.  Just way over the top. 

See, and I know it's all my perception, but in terms of a scale of "tasteful to overdone", I'm Peart << Portnoy <<<< Mangini.  The best analogy I can give is Petrucci and Malmsteen are both shredders, but Petrucci is most often just on the short side of "tasteful" and Malmsteen is many time just on the long side of "tasteful".   

[hefdaddy42]

Malmsteen is never tasteful.

[Stadler]

Malmsteen is never tasteful.

My point exactly. 

[hefdaddy42]

You are clearly a man of rare insight and perspicuity.