*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[wolfking]

But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.

Some did, but some did not.  I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo.  I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred."  JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.

I think that solo is perfect.

Yeah, we had this discussion not long ago.  I personally can see what people mean with the shred but I love it.  It's live don't forget and you can really see JP in that moment on this one.  As a guitarist, sometimes when you feel it, you just want to rip in.

I think that's the difference.  Live, feeling it, I agree - let it rip.  But for the studio recording of TT, IMO it's a bit much.

Yep.

That solo section of TT really dragged down a decent song.  Dunno what JP was thinking for that one.

[TAC]

That solo is awesome!

[wolfking]

That solo is awesome!

Indeed......in a different song.

[Kram]

That solo is awesome!

Indeed......in a different song.

Outside producer might have come in handy on this one..

[TAC]

That solo is awesome!

Indeed......in a different song.

Hah..your comments have really thrown me on this album. I kind of thought you'd dig this. You seem to be looking for something different from Dream Theater. I don't think DT12 is anywhere near as strong as this, but you're on the opposite side. Interesting.

[erwinrafael]

Awaken the Master is really hot on Spotify streaming right now. Quite some time since I saw a Dream Theater song overtake Panic Attack in their "popular meter" given how PA is in many playlists.

[wolfking]

That solo is awesome!

Indeed......in a different song.

Hah..your comments have really thrown me on this album. I kind of thought you'd dig this. You seem to be looking for something different from Dream Theater. I don't think DT12 is anywhere near as strong as this, but you're on the opposite side. Interesting.

I'm surprised a little too mate how polar opposite our opinions are on this one.  We see eye to eye on most things and have done for quite some time so yeah, interesting one.

I still need to try again though.  Have to force myself to listen to it truthfully.

[jayvee3]

But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.

Some did, but some did not.  I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo.  I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred."  JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.

I think that solo is perfect.

Yeah, we had this discussion not long ago.  I personally can see what people mean with the shred but I love it.  It's live don't forget and you can really see JP in that moment on this one.  As a guitarist, sometimes when you feel it, you just want to rip in.

I think that's the difference.  Live, feeling it, I agree - let it rip.  But for the studio recording of TT, IMO it's a bit much.

Yep.

That solo section of TT really dragged down a decent song.  Dunno what JP was thinking for that one.

I think the solo is great and fits perfectly. And if it's not your bag, it only goes for about 45 seconds, so it wouldn't be long enough to drag the song down for mine. But all good, I feel like I've gotten very used to the differing opinions on new album cycles, so I just roll with it. Hopefully you find some things worth revisiting some more on repeat listens bud 

[Dellers]

DT12 has more standout tracks than this.

Simply no. I'd only ever wanna listen to Surrender To Reason and maybe Illumination Theory ever again. Not that I'd turn off the radio if some of the other songs except The Enemy Inside (which would make me turn it off) came on, but they're not songs I feel the need to hear again. Incredibly weak album IMO, which was made worse by one of the worst mixes I've ever heard and a completely broken CD master. They did nothing right with that one from where I'm sitting. The new album is top notch with the exception of not having any dynamics.

[erwinrafael]

The Bigger Picture is a good, even great, song.

[Awaken]

But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.

Some did, but some did not.  I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo.  I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred."  JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.

I think that solo is perfect.

Yeah, we had this discussion not long ago.  I personally can see what people mean with the shred but I love it.  It's live don't forget and you can really see JP in that moment on this one.  As a guitarist, sometimes when you feel it, you just want to rip in.

I think that's the difference.  Live, feeling it, I agree - let it rip.  But for the studio recording of TT, IMO it's a bit much.

Yep.

That solo section of TT really dragged down a decent song.  Dunno what JP was thinking for that one.

That section of the solo is a little - jarring - but ultimately it's the art JP wanted to create.  It's grown on me with repeat listens but I don't know if it will ever not have a jarring feel to me.  Maybe that's what they, or just JP, intended.  IDK.  Sounds like the band were extremely pleased across the board with what they created, that's enough for me. 

[Awaken]

The Bigger Picture is a good, even great, song.

+1 - it's been the highlight of DT12 for me since release day.  That song speaks to me similarly to 'This is the Life', which is a highlight of ADTOE for me. 

[MirrorMask]

The Bigger Picture is a good, even great, song.

+1 - it's been the highlight of DT12 for me since release day.  That song speaks to me similarly to 'This is the Life', which is a highlight of ADTOE for me.

The Bigger Picture is an awesome song and the best off DT12.

[Trav86]

I find all of this so odd because I’ve listened to TT I don’t know how many times, and never once has the solo seemed out of place. It never crossed my mind.

[Kotowboy]

Yeah to me it sounds like a typical DT modulation.

[ErHaO]

After some tries, I unfortunately just can't really get into this album. There is something about the vocal melodies and rythms that does not excite me. The title track keeps making a good impression though, so I can see that growing on me.

[Stadler]

*snip*

So I'd say what's actually lazy is this context-free generalizing and denigrating of perfectly valid, clearly carefully considered and both rhythmically and harmonically varied backing parts as somehow uniform "chuggas".

I'd say this also applies to the misunderstanding of the album's, and the band's growing use of, complex rhythms, changing meters and tempos, and just the over-all experimentation with time. I noticed it a tiny bit on ADTOE and DT12, but it really came to the fore with DOT, and now it's really present in AVFTTOTW. There's a lot of multi-meter and mixed-meter playing going on here, most likely due to Mike's limb-independent drumming skills. He matches the other three instruments so well rhythmically that when the band is locked in to something, they're all really locked in together now, though that isn't to say Portnoy didn't do some of this with the band, I just think with Mangini, they've been able to explore it a lot more now. Parts of "Pale Blue Dot" and "A View From The Top Of The World" had me scratching my head upon first listens, and some of the songs on the new album still have me struggling to count them out!

I guess if you're a musician and/or composer, you have an easier time picking these things out and thus, appreciating them more. If you're not, I could see how it might not mean that much, especially if you just want solid grooves and metal riffs, but DT want to obviously explore this complex stuff a lot more and I don't think they'll stop or slow down. As a drummer myself, I am simultaneously amazed and annoyed by things that Mangini does with DT, in that they are very technical and jaw-dropping at times, even to the point of laughing in disbelief (first time I heard the slow-down break in the middle of "Pale Blue Dot", my jaw was agape and I couldn't help but rewind it and laugh a few times), but at the same time, I think he overplays on some stuff, like the first half of the first verse of "Transcending Time" (which feels a bit too busy just because he can, since his hand-speed is so fast).

Either way, I can understand why some folks might not grasp some of the things the band does if they're not musically inclined, and then feel like the songs sound too busy or same-y if they can't spot the differences, musically speaking, and that's fine, but to say they're "lazy" or or uninspired just feels wrong to me, considering how much their musical horizons have been broadened over the years.

-Marc.

As someone who doesn't have Kyo's knowledge, but also isn't a neophyte, starting to bristle at the "you don't understand! You'll NEVER understand!" line of reasoning with this album.  Fair enough, some of the comments are perhaps unfounded (the "lazy") but let's not swing this the other way.

I've long said that the beauty of DT for me was that they DID play in 13/27 time, but it always CONNECTED, or GROOVED like it was 4/4.  That's Portnoy's real gift, IMO (I love "Bird On A Wire" on the new NMB; I was in the car and I tried to drum along and it was like I had epilepsy I couldn't get it; but when I just let myself listen, it made perfect rhythmic sense to me).   I've also said that Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 13/27, and that's not really a complement.    If that's where the band is going, fair enough, it's their band and good luck and god speed.   But that doesn't mean I'm too simple to get it, that doesn't mean it's over my head, that doesn't mean "more time" and "it'll click".   

Everyone's musical "touch points" are different.   I don't admire 47 time changes in 39 time just for the sake of them; if they are a tool or another piece of vocabulary to connect or to communicate, fine - and I do deeply respect that DT has a LOT more tools in their tool box than many other bands - but they don't resonate with me as an fact unto themselves.   DT has never been a band of "moderation", that's true.  I think this release will ultimately be like ToT; if you like that direction then it'll be your bag, and if you don't it won't.   All the knowledge in the world isn't going to change that.  For me, DT is still a top band, but there are other albums/songs I'm going to reach for first, for better or worse.

[erwinrafael]

It's the other way around. It's Portnoy who plays a simple beat like it is complicated while Mangini drums something like 6/8 but actually turns out to be 7/8 (the Sleeping Giant chorus). And last time I checked, it is not in Mangini's time when they played a song that changes time signatures every bar.

I always asked for an example of a 4/4 that Mangini played that does not sound like a 4/4, but to this day you have not given me one.

[hefdaddy42]

But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.

I don't know, Stads, I don't see anything objectionable in anything that Kyo or M posted there, or anywhere else, especially given the context of what they were responding to.

I also don't understand 13/27 grooving like 4/4.  The drawing point for me with their odd time sigs has always been that they were ODD, and most certainly DIDN'T groove like 4/4, regardless of drummer.  ANYONE can groove in 4/4.  That's what has always set DT apart.  One big difference between them and other complex bands is that they've always had great melody to go along with their, well, oddness.

[bosk1]

But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.

I don't know, Stads, I don't see anything objectionable in anything that Kyo or M posted there, or anywhere else, especially given the context of what they were responding to.

I also don't understand 13/27 grooving like 4/4.  The drawing point for me with their odd time sigs has always been that they were ODD, and most certainly DIDN'T groove like 4/4, regardless of drummer.  ANYONE can groove in 4/4.  That's what has always set DT apart.  One big difference between them and other complex bands is that they've always had great melody to go along with their, well, oddness.

All of this.

[lovethedrake]

But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.

I don't know, Stads, I don't see anything objectionable in anything that Kyo or M posted there, or anywhere else, especially given the context of what they were responding to.

I also don't understand 13/27 grooving like 4/4.  The drawing point for me with their odd time sigs has always been that they were ODD, and most certainly DIDN'T groove like 4/4, regardless of drummer.  ANYONE can groove in 4/4.  That's what has always set DT apart.  One big difference between them and other complex bands is that they've always had great melody to go along with their, well, oddness.

I’m not a moderator but IMO calling other posters arrogant and claiming their posts are garbage is pretty objectionable.   But I don’t really care…. It’s just keyboard warrior stuff.   Also,  the word arrogant is being thrown around recklessly and completely improperly.   

[cramx3]

But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.

I'm one of these people.

The time signatures never really mattered to me because I honestly don't understand them well enough.  It all comes back to the simpleness of whether or not I enjoy the music.  And usually, I end up enjoying the complexity of DT but not because of my understanding of it or the music theory, but because DT has always been able to take something complicated and make it sound melodic and good to my ears. 

[Ben_Jamin]

I agree with Hef.

Transcending Time is a nice example of there being great vocal melodies. When I listened to the instrumental, I noticed how much JLB adds to that ending. I actually would say he makes that ending, just adding those "transcending Time" vocals at the end makes the ending have that impact it does. Without it, it doesn't have that much of the same impact.

The instrumentals actually showcase this a lot. Which I find myself singing the melodies. I also noticed JR is playing the progression and includes these melodies which are also sung by JLB. Also, his Rhythms for the vocals are awesome as well, I am serious in saying this album has some of their best rhythm work to date.

[Awaken]

But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.

I'm one of these people.

The time signatures never really mattered to me because I honestly don't understand them well enough.  It all comes back to the simpleness of whether or not I enjoy the music.  And usually, I end up enjoying the complexity of DT but not because of my understanding of it or the music theory, but because DT has always been able to take something complicated and make it sound melodic and good to my ears.

Same boat.  I appreciate the complexity, virtuosity, etc but what I have always loved most is how it all gels together to form a great song.  To me, this new album is a compilation of really good to great songs (and maybe a few classics, Sleeping Giant/Awaken the Master/A View are approaching that level). 

[MirrorMask]

But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.

I'm one of these people.

The time signatures never really mattered to me because I honestly don't understand them well enough.  It all comes back to the simpleness of whether or not I enjoy the music.  And usually, I end up enjoying the complexity of DT but not because of my understanding of it or the music theory, but because DT has always been able to take something complicated and make it sound melodic and good to my ears.

Same here.

I'll make an example, the iconic drum intro to Painkiller. I'm not a drummer, I don't know if it's a simple intro (as long as you master double bass), or it's a very complex one. And truth to be told, I don't care. The intro is  badass and I enjoy it. It's something very simple that anyone with a bit of practice can easily learn? it doesn't take away from my enjoyment of it. It's a very complex intro and every drummer drools hearing it and wish they could play it that good? well, I'd appreciate Scott Travis' talent, but it wouldn't make me love the intro even more, to my ears it sounds good because I just happen to like it.

[geeeemo]

Why do I like Dream Theater? Of course it's the prog metal. But there are many bands that do that and I don't care for them. Do I understand time signatures or many of the other musical things discussed here? Not really. I studied classical piano, but am not a musician nor play now. But what I love is that they are not boring. They have melody, there is a story told with the music (and lyrics of course). Needing to listen many times to "get it" is what makes it good. What gives the music longevity. The solo in TT is cool for many reasons. I really don't care for TT as much as I am not into that "Rush" sound. But the solo fits somehow and gives texture to the song.

This whole record has so much to it. At first, I was not liking it That much. But I knew better. I kept an open mind. Every song is good. No skips. It does not sound like any other DT record. But it sounds like DT. Which is exactly what I want and love.

[svisser]

Needing to listen many times to "get it" is what makes it good. What gives the music longevity.

Amen. I think this should be understood better.

I have always felt that prog music should make you wait. It demands listening intently to understand and requires respect for where it goes. Perfect examples are Pink Floyd's Echoes, Tool's Fear Inoculum, and (in my opinion) Dream Theater's SDOIT. Also IQ's The Road Of Bones

I have also really been enjoying a lot of Prog/Tech Death for that reason. Black Crown Initiate, Obscura, NeObliviscaris and even newer Cattle Decapitation is really getting into that area of music where it demands more than just a casual listen.

[Architeuthis]

But what I love is that they are not boring. They have melody, there is a story told with the music (and lyrics of course). Needing to listen many times to "get it" is what makes it good. What gives the music longevity. The solo in TT is cool for many reasons. I really don't care for TT as much as I am not into that "Rush" sound. But the solo fits somehow and gives texture to the song.

Oh completely!  I love that it takes many listens to finally get it. It turns into a musical adventure and as you go it just keeps getting better. I've always like most of their songs on the first listen, but when the light really comes on after a few listens, then the WoW factor kicks in.
As far as the Rush sound on TT, I kind of hear that, but am I the only one who hears a bit of a Boston feel in this song? Especially the vocal harmonies and chord phrasings on both keys and guitar.  Btw, I love the solo and the shredding part takes me completely off guard, I laugh every time at the randomness of it. But in a good way. 

[bosk1]

But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.

I'm one of these people.

The time signatures never really mattered to me because I honestly don't understand them well enough.

To clarify what I think Kyo was saying and Hef was echoing:

Kyo was NOT saying that one needs to understand the theory, the musicality, etc. to enjoy DT's music or to "get" DT's music.  Obviously, that isn't the case.  What he IS saying is that, for those who say things like "DT aren't treading new ground" or "this is DT by numbers" or what have you, anyone who would say those things clearly does not get what DT are doing. 

[Kyo]

To clarify what I think Kyo was saying and Hef was echoing:

Kyo was NOT saying that one needs to understand the theory, the musicality, etc. to enjoy DT's music or to "get" DT's music.  Obviously, that isn't the case.  What he IS saying is that, for those who say things like "DT aren't treading new ground" or "this is DT by numbers" or what have you, anyone who would say those things clearly does not get what DT are doing.

Correct. I'm sure some are misunderstanding it that way by default, but I'm not saying "you missed all this stuff, so now that it's been revealed to your feeble mind, you HAVE to like it!". Nothing of the sort. Nobody is forced to like anything. Perfectly valid reactions include "I don't care, I still don't like it", "I don't care because I don't hear/understand it" and "OK, but I do prefer things simpler, so this is not for me".

But when you're not in a position to fully appreciate the music on the level at which some aspects of it were (clearly) created, you should not be making disrespectful remarks questioning the band's creative efforts. If the extra effort they put in and the stuff that is going on as a result of that is lost on YOU, that doesn't say anything about their efforts as creative musicians.

[Elite]

But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.

I'm one of these people.

The time signatures never really mattered to me because I honestly don't understand them well enough.

To clarify what I think Kyo was saying and Hef was echoing:

Kyo was NOT saying that one needs to understand the theory, the musicality, etc. to enjoy DT's music or to "get" DT's music.  Obviously, that isn't the case.  What he IS saying is that, for those who say things like "DT aren't treading new ground" or "this is DT by numbers" or what have you, anyone who would say those things clearly does not get what DT are doing. 

Is DT treading new ground then? What do people who would say that not get about what DT are doing? I find this post quite confusing, truth be told. What I read in Kyo's (long) post (on the last page) is mostly in the last part; it's pretty pointless to hold DT to an insanely high standard that they should be reinventing themselves every new album. That's simply not going to happen and didn't happen on this album either. That says nothing about creative or uncreative this new album is. It has plenty of creative moments, without actually treading new ground.

[Stadler]

But some people really don't understand, and really never will understand.

I don't know, Stads, I don't see anything objectionable in anything that Kyo or M posted there, or anywhere else, especially given the context of what they were responding to.

I don't disagree; I noted that with the reference to "lazy".  But that's where it stops, no?  A listener need not understand in order to get enjoyment out of the work, and if they don't get enjoyment out of the work, then it is what it is.   

I also don't understand 13/27 grooving like 4/4.  The drawing point for me with their odd time sigs has always been that they were ODD, and most certainly DIDN'T groove like 4/4, regardless of drummer.  ANYONE can groove in 4/4.  That's what has always set DT apart.  One big difference between them and other complex bands is that they've always had great melody to go along with their, well, oddness.

I think, sort of, we're saying the same thing.  Words fail here  because we're trying to describe something undescribable.   But what I mean isn't "groove" in the same sense of "easy" or "simple"; this isn't that shuffle with brushes you hear at jazz shows.   I mean it in the sense of not being distracting.  Yeah, there are moments where it's "odd", but there was a cohesiveness to it all that allowed the listener to take from it what they could/wanted, whether it's that rhythm, a vocal melody, a tone, whatever.   It's not DT, but "Turn It On Again" by Genesis is a fantastic example of this; it's NOT 4/4, it's 13/8* and it turns around every two bars, but it feels RIGHT.  It "grooves".  It's not simple; the ear knows something isn't adding up, but it still makes sense.  Though Erwinrafael called me out on "examples", I did give another one albeit facetiously (I don't know what time signature "Bird On A Wire" is).   Regardless of the time signature or complexity of playing there always seemed to be a tension and resolution.  I accept that it's me, and what I'm in tune with, but the new album is almost uncomfortable at times because it seems almost for "odd" for odd's sake.   "Hey let's count to 27!".   "Why?"  "Because we can!"

If someone doesn't agree, that's fine.  I'm cool with that, and I get that people perceive music in different ways. But I'm not denigrating the band, belittling them, or anything like that, and none of this is knowledge-based.  Me taking additional music theory isn't going to change that.


*  That's according to Phil; others have put it at 13/4 (verse/chorus) or 9/4 (intro/bridge).

[Samsara]

Finally listened to the album enough to share some basic thoughts.

I dig it. It's more...virtuostic than Distance Over Time, IMO. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I had figured it would be and I was worried that the solo spots would go back to the level where they stood apart from the song, instead of supporting it. I was pleasantly surprised that those moments were very much (for the most part) tastefully done to enhance the tune. Sure, there are some moments of over-abundant wankery, but that's Dream Theater and to be expected. But it was much more tastefully done this time, IMO.

I think everyone turns in fantastic performances. I haven't isolated on everyone yet (usually I do that later, and then just listen to each person ), but I really found nothing at all to be critical of. James LaBrie is totally in his comfort zone. And he stretches just enough to make the songs dynamic from a vocal perspective (I did feel like while the last couple records were well done vocal performances, James was focusing on making sure he could duplicate the songs live without an issue). No insane notes, but enough higher parts to really give the songs more emotion and emphasis on certain notes. Well done.

I don't really have any "favorites" yet, but now beginning my fifth listen, I do remember some passages in Transcending Time and Awaken the Master caused me to look up (in a good way). Looking forward to digging in more.

Hopefully the tour schedule works out so I can see them do some of these tunes live. 

[Stadler]

To clarify what I think Kyo was saying and Hef was echoing:

Kyo was NOT saying that one needs to understand the theory, the musicality, etc. to enjoy DT's music or to "get" DT's music.  Obviously, that isn't the case.  What he IS saying is that, for those who say things like "DT aren't treading new ground" or "this is DT by numbers" or what have you, anyone who would say those things clearly does not get what DT are doing.

Correct. I'm sure some are misunderstanding it that way by default, but I'm not saying "you missed all this stuff, so now that it's been revealed to your feeble mind, you HAVE to like it!". Nothing of the sort. Nobody is forced to like anything. Perfectly valid reactions include "I don't care, I still don't like it", "I don't care because I don't hear/understand it" and "OK, but I do prefer things simpler, so this is not for me".

But when you're not in a position to fully appreciate the music on the level at which some aspects of it were (clearly) created, you should not be making disrespectful remarks questioning the band's creative efforts. If the extra effort they put in and the stuff that is going on as a result of that is lost on YOU, that doesn't say anything about their efforts as creative musicians.

And to that extent, I've agreed with you. There's no call for calling this band "lazy" or not putting in the effort.  And I am always in awe of people - even musicians I don't like - that can take their creativity to places I don't even know exist.  So there's a ton of respect there.

Having said that, I do - respectfully - think there are some (maybe not you) that seem to imply that if one doesn't like it, then one isn't putting in the work themselves or isn't smart enough to "get it".  This is the guy that took almost ten years to digest Afraid Of Sunlight by Marillion, took almost 20 years to "get" the Dead, and STILL, to this day, gives "Grace Under Pressure" a listen every couple months in the off chance that it clicks after 38 years of non-click.  So I'm okay with slow-burn.   But there's only so much one can do; the elements need to be there to begin with, and I think that's what we're discussing here.   

[Stadler]

I dig it. It's more...virtuostic than Distance Over Time, IMO. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I had figured it would be and I was worried that the solo spots would go back to the level where they stood apart from the song, instead of supporting it. I was pleasantly surprised that those moments were very much (for the most part) tastefully done to enhance the tune. Sure, there are some moments of over-abundant wankery, but that's Dream Theater and to be expected. But it was much more tastefully done this time, IMO.

I think everyone turns in fantastic performances. I haven't isolated on everyone yet (usually I do that later, and then just listen to each person ), but I really found nothing at all to be critical of. James LaBrie is totally in his comfort zone. And he stretches just enough to make the songs dynamic from a vocal perspective (I did feel like while the last couple records were well done vocal performances, James was focusing on making sure he could duplicate the songs live without an issue). No insane notes, but enough higher parts to really give the songs more emotion and emphasis on certain notes. Well done.

I will say this: from the John/John/Jordan perspective, this is a solid record.  I think Petrucci in particular is in stellar form; there's wankery, there's melody, there's diversity in playing... it's hard to criticize the playing here.  I still haven't gotten all the nuances of Jordan's playing; I feel like he might be doing more than what I've heard so far, but what I have heard is solid.   I think James sings well; I don't think he really stretches himself here, but what he does sing is solid; I would never say that he's phoning it in.  The tone of his voice is still as stellar as ever.  I imagine that he will have little trouble delivering on this album live.