Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[TheGreatPretender]

I think You Not Me is a good song. It doesn't have anything special about it that makes it stand out in DT's otherwise amazingly stellar catalog, but I still think it's enjoyable to listen to.

[Jaq]

Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

[Sycsa]

Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

I agree. Taking account the supreme production which hasn't been matched since, Derek's tasteful playing, it's easily among the best of them.

[BlobVanDam]

Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Agreed. I think a lot of the omitted tracks were omitted for good reason, and all of the changes to the music were for the better. The only demo edit I'd probably revert is keeping the extra verse in LITS, but that's very minor. And while I quite like the pre-chorus of Hollow Years, I think it flows a bit better without it, so right decision there too.
The only thing I would change about FII is dropping YNM. I wouldn't add back anything else either. Had it been a double album, it would have been a Load/Reload situation.

[Sycsa]

Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Agreed. I think a lot of the omitted tracks were omitted for good reason, and all of the changes to the music were for the better. The only demo edit I'd probably revert is keeping the extra verse in LITS, but that's very minor. And while I quite like the pre-chorus of Hollow Years, I think it flows a bit better without it, so right decision there too.
The only thing I would change about FII is dropping YNM. I wouldn't add back anything else either. Had it been a double album, it would have been a Load/Reload situation.

I would miss the pre-chorus of YNM, that alone makes the song album-worthy. YOM is superior and good as it is.

[BlobVanDam]

Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Agreed. I think a lot of the omitted tracks were omitted for good reason, and all of the changes to the music were for the better. The only demo edit I'd probably revert is keeping the extra verse in LITS, but that's very minor. And while I quite like the pre-chorus of Hollow Years, I think it flows a bit better without it, so right decision there too.
The only thing I would change about FII is dropping YNM. I wouldn't add back anything else either. Had it been a double album, it would have been a Load/Reload situation.

I would miss the pre-chorus of YNM, that alone makes the song album-worthy. YOM is superior and good as it is.

Even though I don't think YNM is bad, I wouldn't miss it, and it's the only song that weakens the album for me (I'm a bigger fan of it than most, I think).
And I actually don't think YOM is any better than YNM. Even though I'm not a fan of the song, I think the album version was also an improvement over the demo. I prefer the ill fitting poppier chorus of YNM over the more '90s alt-rock mediocrity of YOM's chorus.

[Prog Snob]

Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Agreed. I think a lot of the omitted tracks were omitted for good reason, and all of the changes to the music were for the better. The only demo edit I'd probably revert is keeping the extra verse in LITS, but that's very minor. And while I quite like the pre-chorus of Hollow Years, I think it flows a bit better without it, so right decision there too.
The only thing I would change about FII is dropping YNM. I wouldn't add back anything else either. Had it been a double album, it would have been a Load/Reload situation.

I prefer the original version of TAMP much more.  After seeing them play the original version live before the album even came out, I can say that IMHO it is far superior to the version we have on the CD.  I was extremely disappointed when the CD came out and heard that version.  I like how MP describes it in the Lifting Shadows book.   

I would have also dropped YNM for The Way It Used To Be.  YNM is okay, but it sounds like they were deliberately trying to make a Top 10 hit and it's a bit disappointing to know it probably wasn't a song the band would have normally written, especially considering the lyrical assistance.

[BlobVanDam]

I prefer the original version of TAMP much more.  After seeing them play the original version live before the album even came out, I can say that IMHO it is far superior to the version we have on the CD.  I was extremely disappointed when the CD came out and heard that version.  I like how MP describes it in the Lifting Shadows book.   

Until very recently I would have agreed, but recently I realized I don't mind the album version of TAMP at all. The vibe always used to bother me, but not really any more.
And listening back to the demo version, the tempo plods a bit, and it feels a bit more same-y with the other demo tracks, and feels like it's lacking a little something. I'm not sure the album version rectifies that in a way I'm entirely happy with, but I do prefer it nonetheless. Judging by how the other songs turned out, maybe the demo version would have sounded a lot better with the FII production though.

I would have also dropped YNM for The Way It Used To Be.  YNM is okay, but it sounds like they were deliberately trying to make a Top 10 hit and it's a bit disappointing to know it probably wasn't a song the band would have normally written, especially considering the lyrical assistance.

The outside songwriter isn't a big deal at all to me. Sure, it wasn't the best fit for them, but it's not like he turned it from Metropolis into I Walk Beside You or anything. He turned it from YOM to YNM. No loss!

[ZKX-2099]

It is their biggest carreer mistake that The Way It Used To Be was not an album track.

Also Burning My soul gets too much shit.

[Prog Snob]

Until very recently I would have agreed, but recently I realized I don't mind the album version of TAMP at all. The vibe always used to bother me, but not really any more.
And listening back to the demo version, the tempo plods a bit, and it feels a bit more same-y with the other demo tracks, and feels like it's lacking a little something. I'm not sure the album version rectifies that in a way I'm entirely happy with, but I do prefer it nonetheless. Judging by how the other songs turned out, maybe the demo version would have sounded a lot better with the FII production though.

Exactly! 

The outside songwriter isn't a big deal at all to me. Sure, it wasn't the best fit for them, but it's not like he turned it from Metropolis into I Walk Beside You or anything. He turned it from YOM to YNM. No loss!

Neither song worked for me.  Though I would have taken the former by a slight margin.   

[KevShmev]

Not only does the FII version of Take Away My Pain destroy both the demo and the live OIAL versions, but it is overall a damn fine song, and one of the better tracks on Falling into Infinity.

[BlobVanDam]

It is their biggest carreer mistake that The Way It Used To Be was not an album track.

Since this is the controversial opinion thread, I'm just going to be blunt about this - I don't think any of the left off tracks from FII were very good, and I think some of the appeal is the nature of them. RTK is the best of the bunch for me, but I still wouldn't want it on the album. Everything else is samey '90s pop rock stuff to me, on the same level as YNM/YOM, and I'm just fine without DT having another U2 inspired track on an album. Controversial opinions!

Also Burning My soul gets too much shit.

It's not bad at all! It's a bit cheesy and bonehead, but I dig that, and it adds some diversity to the album that really benefits it.

[Zook]

Not only does the FII version of Take Away My Pain destroy both the demo and the live OIAL versions, but it is overall a damn fine song, and one of the better tracks on Falling into Infinity.

Agreed.

[BlobVanDam]

Neither song worked for me.  Though I would have taken the former by a slight margin.   

I'll take the latter by a slight margin, but as neither song worked for me either, no point splitting hairs here. We'll just agree to drop it from the album altogether.

[rumborak]

Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Absolutely. Same thing with the snare sound on IAW. Sure, a more natural snare sound would have been better, but I always thought people bought into MP's "omfg, the album is unlistenable! Prater ruined everything!!" And when he finally got his way and replaced the  original track with a real snare, it sounded like horse manure.

[BlobVanDam]

Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Absolutely. Same thing with the snare sound on IAW. Sure, a more natural snare sound would have been better, but I always thought people bought into MP's "omfg, the album is unlistenable! Prater ruined everything!!" And when he finally got his way and replaced the  original track with a real snare, it sounded like horse manure.

I don't think MP has anything to do with people disliking the snare any more than MP being responsible for people not liking FII. It's a very '80s sounding snare that I can see a lot of people wouldn't like.

Not me however. I love the '80s snare! I enjoy it on the Firehouse albums too. Big part of the charm and uniqueness of IaW.

[rumborak]

I think what was MP's doing was this notion that it utterly marred the whole album to the point of unlistenability. I always had the impression that once he started taking that stance publicly, you heard it a lot more on DTF.
And it's just the same thing with FII. It's an excellent album overall, and the fact that it managed to become this "born-again classic", despite official labeling as a "ruined album", shows that.

[BlobVanDam]

I think what was MP's doing was this notion that it utterly marred the whole album to the point of unlistenability.

Given that IaW is their most universally loved album, I think it's a pretty tiny minority (if anybody) that believes the snare drum makes the album unlistenable. I don't see that MP's opinion on it has influenced people.

[Prog Snob]

Neither song worked for me.  Though I would have taken the former by a slight margin.   

I'll take the latter by a slight margin, but as neither song worked for me either, no point splitting hairs here. We'll just agree to drop it from the album altogether.

[LCArenas]

Surrounded is currently my favorite DT song of them all.

[Implode]

And there is nothing wrong with that.

[?]

And there is nothing wrong with that.

[Zook]

Surrounded is currently my favorite DT song of them all.

Surrounded has been my favorite DT song since 2006. It's also the first DT song I ever heard.

[moof]

Surrounded has always been my favourite song until it was taken over by Raise the Knife very recently

[jakepriest]

I don't really hear in appeal in Raise the Knife. If anything it's a really mediocre song and the vocal melodies are kinda bad in my opinion.

[Nearmyth]

I don't really hear in appeal in Raise the Knife. If anything it's a really mediocre song and the vocal melodies are kinda bad in my opinion.

I used to think it was a subpar song, but then I listened to a remastered version or with better quality or w/e and I loved it.

I think You Not Me is a good song, but You Or Me is so much better.

Also, not sure if this is that controversial, but Where Are You Now? Is one of the best FII demo songs.

[Tom Bombadil]

I don't really hear in appeal in Raise the Knife. If anything it's a really mediocre song and the vocal melodies are kinda bad in my opinion.

Agreed. Its my least favorite song on Cleaning Out the Closet.

[TheGreatPretender]

Raise The Knife is better than most songs on FII. Better than Trial of Tears.

[Jaq]

Raise The Knife is better than most songs on FII. Better than Trial of Tears.

Well you've certainly come to the right thread, sir.

[marlencrabapple]

I guess not liking FII is an unpopular opinion now. The only thing I like about it are the drums and parts of a few songs.

[Lucien]

Raise The Knife is better than most songs on FII. Better than Trial of Tears.

  Well that's a bold statement

Just like how I think These Walls is better than Octavarium, though both songs are brilliant

[gmillerdrake]

Raise The Knife is better than most songs on FII. Better than Trial of Tears.

Nope. Even in a matter of opinion such as this......this statement is flat out wrong. Sorry. Thanks for playing. Try again later.

[TheGreatPretender]

Raise The Knife is better than most songs on FII. Better than Trial of Tears.

  Well that's a bold statement

And I stand by it. 

[jakepriest]

I guess not liking FII is an unpopular opinion now. The only thing I like about it are the drums and parts of a few songs.

¨

I only like Peruvian Skies, Hell's Kitchen and Trial of Tears on FII. I can listen to Burning My Soul and Take Away My Pain but the rest bores me to tears. 

[rumborak]

Maybe not a  controversial opinion, but rather a statement: I don't own either of the last two albums. When ADTOE came out I was somewhere in India or something and wouldn't have been able to buy the album for a loong while, so I ended up downloading it. By the time I was finally able to get it properly, it had slipped out of the rotation already. And when DT12 came out, I listened to the stream when it was available, and after that I already had lost interest again. Since then I put it on maybe 4 times, through Google Music.