New Live Release: BREAKING THE FOURTH WALL discussion thread

[PixelDream]

Watched the blu-ray. Multi channel soundtrack has dynamics so that's good fortunately. Not crazy about JP's rhythm tone but it works, especially with MM's good sounding drums. This release finally pulled me over when it comes to Mangini. I really appreciate how he's accentuating everyone's parts, what a gifted drummer. TSF isn't a favorite pf mine, but the performance of the song is energizing. Awake set is nostalgic and just awesome.

[TheGreatPretender]

Is it an overlay of stuff that was on the screen at the time? Kinda like what they did for a moment in the ambient section of Illumination Theory just before the orchestra came in where it showed the shadow creatures on screen, then it showed a perspective of the audience with the screen in the distance but also an overlay of the same image.

Well, you'd think so, but paid attention to the screen a few times, and those times, the screen was actually showing the guys play, and from a different angle, no less, so during those times, it's definitely not what was on the screen.

[PixelDream]

What exactly is JMX playing with that foot board? Extra low end notes or something?

[rumborak]

Nobody really knows. My theory is he's tweeting stuff.

[Rodni Demental]

I'm curious about that as well. Kinda looks the the footboards Geddy Lee uses but he uses it to trigger external sounds and samples that have been programmed to certain notes so I don't actually know what Myung is doing either cause Rudess is normally responsible for that stuff. Has to be some kind of effect or double up of his bass notes. He could even use to put the 5th in there to have a bass power chord effect when there's supposed to be a rhythm guitar section but I'm just speculating, I have no idea.

[RaiseTheKnife]

Does JMX use the Taurus pedals for any other songs other than Looking Glass?

[PixelDream]

My father was watching along and was really impressed that he's playing these parts and pressing stuff with his feet. 

Second viewing: Trial of Tears is amazing! Definitely an improvement on the Budokan version although I also really like that one.

[Rodni Demental]

He uses the pedals during The Enemy Inside aswell (there's a good shot of it just before James comes to hug rape him and proceeds to prentend to play his bass over his shoulder in the next shot  ). It looks like John is following the same notes that he'd be playing on bass.

[PixelDream]

JLB also stands out with his showmanship on this release. He's really good at hyping up the crowd, even when the music gets as pretentious as the outro of Breaking All Illusions. There's a lot of bombast but he always stays involved in the music no matter what's going on.

As far as pitch correction goes, yes I do hear some here and there and his voice has some enhancement going on. But I've looked at some bootleg vids from this tour and he's actually way more consistent and in tune than he has been in years. I'm so bummed out that I missed them this tour.

[PetFish]

I still don't get why JM gets credit for "Bass and Taurus Pedals" but JR doesn't get credit for "Keyboards, Continuum, Seaboard, Zen Riffer, and iOS Apps" and JP doesn't get credit for "Guitars and HGH".

Why do Taurus Pedals receive special recognition?  It's the same with the Chapman Stick I think... "Bass and Chapman Stick".  At the very least JR should get "Keyboards and Zen Riffer".

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I still don't get why JM gets credit for "Bass and Taurus Pedals" but JR doesn't get credit for "Keyboards, Continuum, Seaboard, Zen Riffer, and iOS Apps" and JP doesn't get credit for "Guitars and HGH".

Why do Taurus Pedals receive special recognition?  It's the same with the Chapman Stick I think... "Bass and Chapman Stick".  At the very least JR should get "Keyboards and Zen Riffer".

I dunno, first world problems at their best.

[King Postwhore]

 

Man, such issues to sort out.

[BlobVanDam]

The live version sounds a lot better though, and not just because it's fuller. Honestly, as much as I love that section, something about the way it was recorded or mixed on the album just doesn't sound good. I'm not sure what it is. But with most live strings like that, usually, they have such a soft and organic tone to them, that if you turn the volume way up high, it'll still sound good, but the ones on the album, there's something umm.. almost coarse about them. What kind of post processing did they do, I wonder. I don't know. But in BTFW they definitely have that beautiful, soft and organic tone that's much more pleasant to listen to.

Have you listened to both versions on the same equipment? Because honestly, it's predominantly the studio version that there's barely any difference in tone at all between the two. Side by side I can't even pick them apart with my headphones except for a couple of specific articulations, and the moments of crowd noise.

[PixelDream]

OK the alternate DT12 easter egg part at the credits is so nice. I really hope they'll use this for a song. It just sounds like something new and a bit more loose. Love it.

[erwinrafael]

Trial of Tears holy shit that intro!

One of my favourite parts of the gig, including both times I saw them. It's a shame the DVD wasn't filmed later in the tour as they've recently started expanding it. Check this out from the Argentina gig, they all launch into this improv for a few minutes and then come back round.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvGY_WTqSXg

It's awesome. Made me grin like a madman. Starts at 2:15ish.

Damn, that was awesome. That seems to be the part of the show that has changed the most since it began in January.

I love Mangini's face when they finish at 5:23. He's all like "yeah, we're pretty good."

I hope this would actually become a song in the next album. It sounded so good!

If this is just a jam, it's really cool to hear an improv jam in 7/4. 

[PixelDream]

Man, that was great. This together with the DT12 easter egg stuff like this could be a nice opening to a new direction. DT12 is so typical for the band, and actually ADTOE also.. it would be almost silly if they'd stay in exactly the same style.

[Madman Shepherd]

So there hasn't really been any discussion about the songs being "album tempo".  I honestly forgot all about it until halfway through the show and then for a split second I thought, "I think they must be using a faster click track."  Then I realized that was kind of dumb of me to think and that the album tempo is pretty much perfect as it is. 

[PixelDream]

I don't get what you're trying to say but do you mean the songs sound faster or something?

They never used click with MP live right?

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Nope. That always resulted in faster-than-life performances.

I remember a couple of performances of Caught in a Web during the Octavarium tour. Fast shit.

[Rodni Demental]

So there hasn't really been any discussion about the songs being "album tempo".  I honestly forgot all about it until halfway through the show and then for a split second I thought, "I think they must be using a faster click track."  Then I realized that was kind of dumb of me to think and that the album tempo is pretty much perfect as it is.

I never noticed it either for this show, I suppose that's a fair indication that the songs didn't get dragged down or feel like they were plodding away to the "click".

Nope. That always resulted in faster-than-life performances.

I remember a couple of performances of Caught in a Web during the Octavarium tour. Fast shit.

Let's not forget The Glass Prison on Bucharest and other live vids from the time. Poor John trying to play those arpeggios at Mike's superhuman tempo.

[Madman Shepherd]

I don't get what you're trying to say but do you mean the songs sound faster or something?

They never used click with MP live right?

There has been significant opposition on this board to them using a click track with MM.  Some people think it makes the songs drag in a live setting.  The discussion may have even been in this thread but possibly dozens of pages back.  Now that the live album/bluray is out, seems people have forgotten that.  Kinda shows me that the discussion was just sort of...overblown to begin with maybe?

[rumborak]

Not so much overblown, but it seems to depend on how one is experiencing the concert. I was at the very show, and for one or two songs I thought it was plodding. When I saw the DVD version I didn't think that.

[TheGreatPretender]

I understand being averse to a click track because it might make the songs feel too rigid or that it defeats the possibility of spontaneity or something. But to complain that they're the same tempo as they are on the album is just silly. As impressive as it would be to see DT play their songs even faster than they already do, it's completely unnecessary. And honestly, I don't like it when bands play their music faster live, because it seems like they're just rushing through the song, just so they could pack more material into a single set list.

But anyway, regarding the fear of music feeling too rigid, I'd say for the most part, that's been averted. Even though MM plays his parts flawlessly, he still gives it a very organic feel.

[RaiseTheKnife]

That Argentina jam was awesome.  But yeah, its just the Wasteland chords in 7/4, so I don't think it will be turn into anything beyond just a cool jam.

[Grizz]

Sometimes the crowd sounds piped in, but otherwise a great concert. I'd say Score is still LaBrie's finest moment.

I think Score is probably LaBrie's most consistent concert. But I've also heard mentions of certain parts being overdubbed. And besides, in terms of stage presence, I'd say LaBrie was at his all time worst in Score (among officially released video material). I mean, overall, it was pretty standard, but there were certain parts where he seemed so stiff for some reason.

He was sick at the time. As in physically ill. The Wallngford show from just before has him sounding like complete shit (the one where he comes in early on Metropolis removing the instrumental section and prompting a drum solo).

I can definitely say this is my favorite live release of theirs. Up to this one, there was always something obviously amiss with a given live DVD. LSFNY had the ridiculous seizure-inducing animations. Chaos in Motion sounded like crap, and so did LALP. Score's orchestra was painful to listen to.
This one pulls it all together without any big flaw. The orchestra sounds great, James sounds great, the video quality is excellent. And it includes a best-of of SFAM and Awake, two of their most-liked albums.

I've only ever heard dynamic range compression artifacts used stylistically before now.


It's funny that, regarding the visuals on Scarred, I had taken a couple pictures from the NYC show and Google Goggles recognized the stock images from which they were sourced.

I'm currently preparing a waveform comparison of DT12CD, DT12HD, BtFWCD, AsYd Boot, and Grizz Lossy Boot. I have no clue what to do after importing them into Audacity.

[Grizz]

Okay, so the CD version is still downlo being brought over by my friend so that I may view the single part of that single track for educational purposes only while the CD is in my possession, so let's just see a quick comparison of the overall IT for a compression view:

[fischermasamune]

Can you explain better what these waves mean?

[rumborak]

I understand being averse to a click track because it might make the songs feel too rigid or that it defeats the possibility of spontaneity or something. But to complain that they're the same tempo as they are on the album is just silly.

I don't know how many concerts you've been to, but music is perceived very differently based on the external circumstances. What seems like a perfectly fine tempo for a song in a calm living room environment, will be perceived as plodding in a more adrenaline-driven environment such as a live concert.
Dismissing the state of the listener, the performers, and the environment they are in as "silly", is frankly rather ignorant about humans work.

[Implode]

So that's why songs seem to be playing insanely fast if they wake me up.

[rumborak]

I guess so.
I have certainly played most songs live a good chunk faster than normal because of the adrenaline, and the people there didn't notice it. When listening to a recording of it later I noticed how much faster than regular they were.  I would argue that if both performers and listeners find the tempo appropriate, then it is the right one.

So, while the click is great for a live DVD (which is usually enjoyed in a calm environment), it's not good for the people actually being there at the concert.

[Grizz]

Can you explain better what these waves mean?

Jack, although you can see that the peaks are squashed on BTFW and Grizz Lossy. The difference is one is the result of a bad phone the other a bad master.

[jammindude]

"I was thinkin we could walk on the water and still find reasons to swim inside..."

[BlobVanDam]

I understand being averse to a click track because it might make the songs feel too rigid or that it defeats the possibility of spontaneity or something. But to complain that they're the same tempo as they are on the album is just silly.

I don't know how many concerts you've been to, but music is perceived very differently based on the external circumstances. What seems like a perfectly fine tempo for a song in a calm living room environment, will be perceived as plodding in a more adrenaline-driven environment such as a live concert.
Dismissing the state of the listener, the performers, and the environment they are in as "silly", is frankly rather ignorant about humans work.

That. What works perfectly for the energy in the studio does not always translate the same with the energy of a live performance. For example, the studio tempo for the outro of TSCO kills that song dead for me on LALP, even though it's fine on the album. In other instances, the studio tempos work perfectly well, and speeding them up too far live loses the vibe that makes the original so good.
It's a hard thing to quantify, but it's not at all a silly phenomenon.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't know how many concerts you've been to, but music is perceived very differently based on the external circumstances. What seems like a perfectly fine tempo for a song in a calm living room environment, will be perceived as plodding in a more adrenaline-driven environment such as a live concert.
Dismissing the state of the listener, the performers, and the environment they are in as "silly", is frankly rather ignorant about humans work.

I've been to plenty of concerts.
Regardless of how things might be perceived, I just think that saying, "They should play their songs faster live than in the studio" is kind of a silly thing to expect. Some bands choose to do it, some don't, some only do it for certain songs, others might do it for every song, but it's certainly not something that should be considered mandatory.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I honestly haven't even noticed it for The Glass Prison on the Gigantour DVD, but apparently, someone said they're playing it faster, I don't know. But sometimes it is noticeable, and when it is, it feels like the song is being rushed through, even if it's to drive the energy up.
But regardless, for the past two Dream Theater tours, never once have I felt like anything was plodding or dragging. Even songs that I wasn't particularly excited to hear never dragged for me.

[FsF]

I still don't get why JM gets credit for "Bass and Taurus Pedals" but JR doesn't get credit for "Keyboards, Continuum, Seaboard, Zen Riffer, and iOS Apps" and JP doesn't get credit for "Guitars and HGH".

Why do Taurus Pedals receive special recognition?  It's the same with the Chapman Stick I think... "Bass and Chapman Stick".  At the very least JR should get "Keyboards and Zen Riffer".

The first thing I thought of when I saw it was "Geddy Lee used to be credited to those on Rush albums", which probably explains it.