Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[TheGreatPretender]

I rarely skip songs. I almost always listen to whole albums. Must be the effect of being in the casette tape generation. Anyway, I actually find the concept of a live exclusive really cool. My favorite Vai song is Whispering A Prayer, which is a live exclusive.

TDOE is indeed a wankfest but it did serve a musical purpose in the SFAM album as the on steroids homage to the instrumental section of Metropolis Pt. 1.

Hey, I rarely skip songs too, when I listen to the albums, but I'll gladly listen to Enigma Machine when I listen to DT12. In fact, I'd much rather sit through the studio version of Enigma Machine, than through the studio version of Stream of Consciousness, Hell's Kitchen or Erotomania. I only ever listen to the latter two when I listen to the albums all the way through.

The funny thing is, in the case of DT, their live exclusives were always songs that I didn't think were anything that special. And in fact, those would be the songs I tend to skip or sometimes just tune right out. But maybe that's because DT actually puts their best stuff onto their albums.

[Skeever]

Been thinking about it long and hard, and I think my controversial opinion is that I'd like to see MP rejoin DT. Not necessarily with the level of influence he had before, but with someone who is still enough of a creative contributor.

[TheGreatPretender]

Been thinking about it long and hard, and I think my controversial opinion is that I'd like to see MP rejoin DT. Not necessarily with the level of influence he had before, but with someone who is still enough of a creative contributor.

I wouldn't.

But you know, I have thought about that too. Let's say there was a hypothetical situation where for whatever reason MM decided to leave, or was asked to leave (let's hope neither ever happens), and they did ask MP to rejoin the band.
Would he have as much creative influence? Would he want to take over all the bootleg/setlist stuff that he did before, and if he would, would they let him? I mean, it would be a really weird situation. On the one hand, MP did basically run the band for 25 years, but on the other, since he left, it's been almost 5 years, and since then, JP has been running things quite differently, so DT is a bit of a different machine now, with more constant setlists, click tracks, pre-recorded backing vocals, etc. And for them to LET MP come back, I don't see him being in a position to say, "How about we just pick up where we left off?" But on the other hand, given his controlling and OCD nature, even if he did get to take care of bootlegs, Ytsejam stuff, etc., would he be able to function in the band without having control over setlists, and other executive decisions that JP makes these days?

[King Postwhore]

Been thinking about it long and hard, and I think my controversial opinion is that I'd like to see MP rejoin DT. Not necessarily with the level of influence he had before, but with someone who is still enough of a creative contributor.

You have a better chance of agreeing  with Scheavo in the P&R Forum.

[Stadler]

Been thinking about it long and hard, and I think my controversial opinion is that I'd like to see MP rejoin DT. Not necessarily with the level of influence he had before, but with someone who is still enough of a creative contributor.

I'm up for this as well, and I'm of the opinion that if they could cross the bridge of even getting to that point, they could figure out the setlists and what not.   Honestly, though, I think if that was ever to happen, John would be in the position of having to choose between James and MP.  I think James would leave. 

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm up for this as well, and I'm of the opinion that if they could cross the bridge of even getting to that point, they could figure out the setlists and what not.   Honestly, though, I think if that was ever to happen, John would be in the position of having to choose between James and MP.  I think James would leave.

I highly doubt it. I'm sure James would oppose MP coming back, but I don't think he'd leave the band. There have been some negativity brewing beneath the surface during the last couple of years of MP's tenure, but people always try to make it out to have been like some kind of deep seeded hatred between the two, and that's a little too extreme.

Either way, I highly doubt MM is going anywhere, so thankfully, we won't have to worry about it.

[hefdaddy42]

If something were to happen to MM or he were to leave, I don't think the guys in DT would ask MP back.  I think they would find a new drummer.

[TheGreatPretender]

If something were to happen to MM or he were to leave, I don't think the guys in DT would ask MP back.  I think they would find a new drummer.

At this point, it's honestly tough to imagine MP being back in DT at all. Like I said, the way the band is run now has changed completely, so MP being in the band as it is now, would be a very different kind of presence than what it was before. It's not even a matter of whether they'd ask him back, I think it's more of a matter of whether he'd even accept.

Like, what could they possibly say? JP: "Hey Mike, how would you like to come back to Dream Theater, the band you started and ran for 25 years, on a probationary basis? Let's just be clear, we'll be deciding on the set lists, studio engineers and other executive decisions. We'll consider your input of course, but the final decisions are all up to me. But we'll be happy to have you back behind the kit."

I feel like MP would consider something like that a complete insult and not even agree to it.

[emtee]

Even though MP says..."never say never" I will go ahead and say it. JP will never ask MP to rejoin. And I'll bet it has as much to do
with the spouses as it does with the band members. When you go through a very difficult time the spouses are there as protective
rocks, keeping your spirits up and looking out for your mental and physical well being. Grudges are held forever in these situations.
Add to that, JLB would say it's either him or me, make your choice. I'll put $$ on the table that if MM ever decides to split, they will
recruit a new drummer.

[erwinrafael]

Been thinking about it long and hard, and I think my controversial opinion is that I'd like to see MP rejoin DT. Not necessarily with the level of influence he had before, but with someone who is still enough of a creative contributor.

You missed his arsenal of four drum fill patterns?

[puppyonacid]

I know what you're driving at there as in MP's playing did start to sound a bit repetitive......but that is harsh!

[TheGreatPretender]

You missed his arsenal of four drum fill patterns?

No, I think he misses the ass and balls.

[goo-goo]

If something were to happen to MM or he were to leave, I don't think the guys in DT would ask MP back.  I think they would find a new drummer.

Definitely this.

Would love to see Bobby Jarzombek or Marco Minnemann behind the kit. Long shot (Jarzombek declined to audition, and Marco didn't want to be in the band) but their heart could change.

It's hard to imagine MP back in DT at this stage of the game..maybe for a one-time show...and that's a big MAYBE. But on a full time basis, I don't think so. Would be hard for the current DT to get out of their current comfort zone...Seems like they seem more relaxed than when MP was around.

[Dublagent66]

Yeah, I would say if something were to happen and DT needed a drummer, thinking that MP has a shot of coming back would be 100% controversial.

[hefdaddy42]

The only way I see MP drumming with the band again is in a guest spot at a live performance kind of like DS did at the WDADRU show.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

The only way I see MP drumming with the band again is in a guest spot at a live performance kind of like DS did at the WDADRU show.

I agree.

That being said, I don't see the current lineup being interested in doing a 'reunion' show or something to that extent. Those were MP things that aren't happening ever again, I think.

[hefdaddy42]

You're probably right.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't know about "ever", but most probably not in near future. We definitely won't be seeing a 30th anniversary reunion.

[King Postwhore]

The only way I see MP drumming with the band again is in a guest spot at a live performance kind of like DS did at the WDADRU show.

I agree.

That being said, I don't see the current lineup being interested in doing a 'reunion' show or something to that extent. Those were MP things that aren't happening ever again, I think.

You're probably right.

I don't know about "ever", but most probably not in near future. We definitely won't be seeing a 30th anniversary reunion.

That's what they said.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

It probably depends a lot of their relationship, which seems nothing short of strained these days. Even though MP is somewhat OK with Rudess, as long as James LaBrie is in the band I can't see Portnoy hitting the stage with DT ever again (which is probably going to be until the band is officially done).

[TheGreatPretender]

Personally, I don't care either way. It'd be cool to see MP on stage with them again some day, but I'm talking about like, when they're in their 60s or 70s, and don't make any more albums, at which stage, if they offered to do a reunion gig, he could either let it go and perform with them one or two songs for old time's sake, or end up a stubborn old man along the lines of Robert Plant. But that's like 10+ years down the line.
As it stands right now, MP has been in the band for way too long, so doing any kind of a reunion gig with him while they're still a recording band would only make MP fanboys hope against hope that it would lead to him coming back full time. And I highly doubt DT would want to plant that kind of a seed into people's brains.

[Grizz]

more constant setlists, click tracks, pre-recorded backing vocals, etc.

This is a lot of why I would enjoy having MP back. I only got to see the band twice before they started doing this, and I prefer it (and have a shitty memory).

[PROGdrummer]

Been thinking about it long and hard, and I think my controversial opinion is that I'd like to see MP rejoin DT. Not necessarily with the level of influence he had before, but with someone who is still enough of a creative contributor.

You missed his arsenal of four drum fill patterns?

FWIW, Mangini doesn't do much more.

[TheGreatPretender]

This is a lot of why I would enjoy having MP back. I only got to see the band twice before they started doing this, and I prefer it (and have a shitty memory).

Yes, but my whole point is, if MP did come back, there's absolutely no reason to believe that any of that stuff will revert back to how it was before he left.

[Skeever]

Yeah, Black Clouds tour was barely a rotating setlist. It was a static setlist with one or two interchangeable parts. Plus, the majority of the band seem to like the way things are now much better, and I don't see MP ever coming back on less than democratic terms.

[Grizz]

Aside from The Final Frontier tour and the festivals, the only constants were A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany. There was plenty of variation. See https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39025.0

[Skeever]

Doesn't look like much variety to me. Not like previous tours.

[Mosh]

To be fair, those were shorter sets. Of course earlier tours had more variety, they were doing 3 hours a night. When you're doing a shorter set with two staples that already take up around 40 minutes of the set, there isn't going to be much room for variation. They did the best they could on that tour.

[cramx3]

I saw DT twice on that tour and both nights had completely different sets besides A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany, which as stated were the only two songs played every night.  So I would say there was a good amount of rotation, but not as much as some previous tours.  Also as mentioned, those shows were shorter since it was Progressive Nation, I think only 1.5 hour set lists.

Weird how that link to the concert archives is missing the NYC show from that tour, I think it was a day after the NJ show.  I remember that show very well because my "friend" ripped me off big time that night and we no longer became friends although I had a really good time at the concert.  Also they did Metropolis with Dweezil Zappa that night.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, Black Clouds tour was barely a rotating setlist. It was a static setlist with one or two interchangeable parts. Plus, the majority of the band seem to like the way things are now much better, and I don't see MP ever coming back on less than democratic terms.

Yeah, I think your second point gets more to the heart of the matter. IF MP came back (not that he is), and even if he did want to jumble set lists again, there's nothing to say the band would give him that free reign. So saying, "I want MP to come back because I miss rotating setlists," is pointless. If people prefer his drumming to MM's, that's a different issue, and I can understand that. But if people prefer the way MP ran things, I wouldn't hold my breath.

The only way I see MP having actual control of Dream Theater again is if the band as it is now fell apart entirely, and DT was no more. And then MP and JP got together and decided to revive it together. But given the morale of the band as it is now, that's something else that I really don't see happening.

[TAC]

Aside from The Final Frontier tour and the festivals, the only constants were A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany. There was plenty of variation. See https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39025.0

Right, I believe AROP was played pretty much every show, no? So the only constants were ANTR, AROP, and TCOT. They basically then switched out over half the show from night to night. The setlist wasn't very long, so that may add to the illusion that things weren't rotating, when in fact over half the show rotated on a nightly basis.

[Stadler]

I'm up for this as well, and I'm of the opinion that if they could cross the bridge of even getting to that point, they could figure out the setlists and what not.   Honestly, though, I think if that was ever to happen, John would be in the position of having to choose between James and MP.  I think James would leave.

I highly doubt it. I'm sure James would oppose MP coming back, but I don't think he'd leave the band. There have been some negativity brewing beneath the surface during the last couple of years of MP's tenure, but people always try to make it out to have been like some kind of deep seeded hatred between the two, and that's a little too extreme.

Either way, I highly doubt MM is going anywhere, so thankfully, we won't have to worry about it.

Speculation of course, but I don't think that particular acrimony is that exaggerated.  There were some clips of the selection process where James appeared downright giddy.

I think the spouses thing is a real thing, but I also think that is the one that is easiest to overcome. 

As for the last, I would take out "thankfully".  For me, it's just not the same.   DT was a special band for me, separate from the pack, and now they are one of many pretty good bands I listen to.  I'm a realist, though, in that I don't pine for anything (if I was to, it would be Blackmore back into Purple, not Portnoy back into DT) but I don't typically play that game.  It is what it is. 

[TheGreatPretender]

As for the last, I would take out "thankfully".  For me, it's just not the same.   DT was a special band for me, separate from the pack, and now they are one of many pretty good bands I listen to.  I'm a realist, though, in that I don't pine for anything (if I was to, it would be Blackmore back into Purple, not Portnoy back into DT) but I don't typically play that game.  It is what it is.

Well, that is unfortunate. To me they're as special as ever. The past 2 albums have been a big improvement over BC&SL, and everything that made DT special, wasn't done because of Mike Portnoy alone. I do think they should pick up doing Ytsejam releases, although without rotating set lists or demos, there is little potential for that anyway. It's not like we're going to see or hear something we don't already see or hear on their official live releases. And everything else that we haven't heard on their ADTOE tour we got for Christmas, for free, so that was really awesome of them. The only other thing they could do better is documentary footage. Jordan Rudess seems to have really taken a liking to the camera, with all the Youtube stuff he's been doing, so I would love to see him record a full on behind the scenes making of documentary for their next album, the way MP did for Systematic Chaos. But aside from that, I'd say their standards of excellence are as great as ever, and their live shows are better than ever in terms of production and polish, if you ask me.
I can understand the non-rotating set lists might be a bit dull for someone who goes to see them live more than once or twice, but for everyone else, who only gets to see them once, it's better I think, because I won't be sitting here thinking, "Aww dammit, Montreal got Metropolis AND Hollow Years, meanwhile Toronto got The Great Debate and New Millennium. That sucks!"

[Stadler]

As for the last, I would take out "thankfully".  For me, it's just not the same.   DT was a special band for me, separate from the pack, and now they are one of many pretty good bands I listen to.  I'm a realist, though, in that I don't pine for anything (if I was to, it would be Blackmore back into Purple, not Portnoy back into DT) but I don't typically play that game.  It is what it is.

Well, that is unfortunate. To me they're as special as ever. The past 2 albums have been a big improvement over BC&SL, and everything that made DT special, wasn't done because of Mike Portnoy alone. I do think they should pick up doing Ytsejam releases, although without rotating set lists or demos, there is little potential for that anyway. It's not like we're going to see or hear something we don't already see or hear on their official live releases. And everything else that we haven't heard on their ADTOE tour we got for Christmas, for free, so that was really awesome of them. The only other thing they could do better is documentary footage. Jordan Rudess seems to have really taken a liking to the camera, with all the Youtube stuff he's been doing, so I would love to see him record a full on behind the scenes making of documentary for their next album, the way MP did for Systematic Chaos. But aside from that, I'd say their standards of excellence are as great as ever, and their live shows are better than ever in terms of production and polish, if you ask me.
I can understand the non-rotating set lists might be a bit dull for someone who goes to see them live more than once or twice, but for everyone else, who only gets to see them once, it's better I think, because I won't be sitting here thinking, "Aww dammit, Montreal got Metropolis AND Hollow Years, meanwhile Toronto got The Great Debate and New Millennium. That sucks!"

Two things:  one, it WASN'T just Mike, and I know that.   But I take the approach that a band is like a sports team, and changing one member by definition changes the dynamic of the whole.   For me, I though Mike's prodding/suggesting/haranguing (depending on what camp you are in) made James a better singer.  I just listened to ADTOE last night, and other than This is The Life (which is a top 5 song for me) there was nothing on there that made me go "Whoa!". 

Two, it's not any one thing.  Granted, I like the rotating setlists, not because I see multiple shows, but because 1) it creates a mystery before the show that doesn't otherwise exist nowadays, and 2) I think it makes them play better and with more fire, more urgency, and more diligence.  And I have every Ytsejam CD release (I was working on the DVDs before the break) so that is a plus.  It's just a general vibe and a general accessibility and openness that I think is missing.  I don't expect JP or JR or JLB or JMX to be something they're not.   That is unrealistic (even though the band themselves committed to just that at the time).  Again I go back to the sports analogy, and how its as much the way the parts interact as it is the parts themselves.

[Setlist Scotty]

Aside from The Final Frontier tour and the festivals, the only constants were A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany. There was plenty of variation. See https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39025.0

Right, I believe AROP was played pretty much every show, no? So the only constants were ANTR, AROP, and TCOT. They basically then switched out over half the show from night to night. The setlist wasn't very long, so that may add to the illusion that things weren't rotating, when in fact over half the show rotated on a nightly basis.

Exactly - and if you were to look at the setlists from Australia on that tour (where they did do 2 hour sets), you'd see even more variation. In fact they did back-to-back shows in Melbourne, and only ANtR and TCoT were played both nights.
 
 

It's hard to imagine MP back in DT at this stage of the game..maybe for a one-time show...and that's a big MAYBE. But on a full time basis, I don't think so. Would be hard for the current DT to get out of their current comfort zone...Seems like they seem more relaxed than when MP was around.

Agreed - as of now, I can't imagine MP coming back to DT full-time. However, the one way that I can imagine them extending the invitation to him is if their popularity really starts to dwindle and they find themselves playing the same venues they did in the 90s. At that point, JP might start to think about what it would take to bring back the audience, and at that point he might think a reunion with MP would do the trick (and I think it would to some degree). If the band was to invite MP back, there definitely would be some negotiating on the control aspect of who oversees what. I don't expect that things will be like they were when MP was first in the band, but I imagine that MP would require that he oversee certain things as part of his agreement to rejoin the band.

As a side point, I find it interesting that, at least on the surface, it doesn't appear that MP has absolute (or near absolute) control of any of the bands that he's currently involved in - all of them seem to be more like democracies or are directed by others in the band. With that being the case, I wonder why that couldn't have been the case in DT originally, so that MP didn't feel burned out like he did by 2010.