Coronavirus

[The Walrus]

So we have not received our stimulus check (or our IRS refund). Has anyone used this website to query status?

https://www.irs.gov/coronavirus/get-my-payment

Last year was the first time I did not receive my payment on time. I didn't call my accountant until June, when I finally got tired of waiting. He said it's rare, but sometimes people's refunds get stuck in 'processing' which apparently mine was. After I called him, he called the IRS and within a few days my refund was in my mailbox. I also called the IRS before that, but they told me to call my accountant first. So you might want to make a phone call if you haven't received it yet!

The site tells me it 'needs more information' if I want direct deposit but doesn't tell me whether or not a check has been mailed to my address; I got my 2019 refund over a month ago, so I wonder when it's coming. I earn way less than 75k, so it should be soon. But I might just enter my DD info tonight.

[soupytwist]

With most of the world in some form of lockdown the numbers for infections and deaths seems relatively small.....But at some point we have to come out of lockdown (long before a vaccine hits) and when that happens if those numbers start to ramp up - simply put we are in trouble.

[jingle.boy]

As of today:

Total cases vs. U.S. population
.0030487805

Total deaths vs. U.S. population
.0002134146

Total unemployed: over 30 million

It's time to ease back into normalcy while using common sense as our guide.

With most of the world in some form of lockdown the numbers for infections and deaths seems relatively small.....But at some point we have to come out of lockdown (long before a vaccine hits) and when that happens if those numbers start to ramp up - simply put we are in trouble.

To these above two posts, I remember seeing a "meme" at the outset of this which was something along the lines of "If in a couple of months everyone thinks the all of the measures taken to combat the virus were an immense over-reaction, it simply means they worked."

How would this sound?  Contraction rates of 10%-20% (or more), and death rates of 1% or 2%, and likely even more than 30M unemployed?

[jingle.boy]

OK, but that entirely misses the point, since doctors and nurses are generally too busy to  be leading protests.

Isn't that pretty much the point?

[jingle.boy]

Here's where I come down on this whole thing.

This is a public health issue.  So I feel that the people that need to be making the decisions for how to proceed are healthcare professionals. 

If I have an automotive issue, I will listen to my mechanic.  But in a public health issue, I don't give a shit about my mechanic's medical opinion, no matter how loudly he yells it from the capitol steps.

If I have a legal issue, I will listen to my attorney.  But if I have a plumbing issue, I will not seek my attorney's advice or opinion.

My doctor may give me instructions that I don't like, but they are instructions that I should follow if I intend to maximize my healthy well-being.  Just like my mechanic will give me advice on the care of my car, and my attorney will give me advice on my will, and my financial planner will give me advice on estate planning, and if I don't follow their advice because I think that I know better, then I'm a fucking idiot.

I get that a lot of people DON'T LIKE what is happening right now, but that doesn't mean that it isn't in the best interests of our country from a public health perspective (which is the most important perspective, since, again, we are dealing with a public health problem).

What do you do when your mechanic comes to you and says "You cannot drive the car without a transmission; fixing that transmission will cost you $6000."

Or, your attorney says "We can sue the pants off your neighbor and force them to cut that tree DOWN!  My hourly rate is $750 an hour, and my retainer is $15,000."   

None of these decisions exist in a vacuum, and with immense respect to you, it's the "then I'm a fucking idiot" judgment that is at heart of my push back.  No, you're not a "fucking idiot", you just have a different risk profile, or a different prioritization of issues.  If that car is a '74 Pontiac on it's last leg, you're not a "fucking idiot" if you say you're going to drive it until it drops and get a new car.   Contrast, if it's a '78 Datsun 280Z, maybe it makes sense to put that $6000 transmission in there and preserver your cherry vintage ride.    Maybe the tree is out in the back yard, and you're just sticking it to the dick that called the cops on your 4th of July party last year, or maybe the tree is right over the kitchen and if it falls it destroys your $250,000 house.

We are allowed to do this math.  We are allowed to have differing variables.

Very good points! Though they only fit under the assumption that people are only risking their own health. If my mechanic said that driving my car could kill me and potentially thousands of other people, that's very different than "Well..it's my car and I can decide what it's worth"

Yeah, like if you owned a Pinto, not a Datsun.

[jingle.boy]

Unfortunately it's not just about public health. Economic catastrophe for untold millions globally is an equal factor. While I believe strongly in our ability to bounce back, I think it might take years. As mentioned before, that's why this thing has been so difficult to navagate.

I think you're absolutely right.  I'm more concerned about the alternative though...where the virus (which by the way, doesn't care about whether we're getting tired of social distancing measures, economic conditions, or how long it's inconveniencing entire societies) kills millions - perhaps 10s of millions - more, and there is still economic collapse that would take years to recover from.

I think some of this (and I'll say this isn't directed to anyone here... just the general unrest seen in society - which isn't limited to the US... we're seeing it up here as well), goes to the human culture of 'entitlement'.  'I don't like this, I don't want this, it needs to change.'  That kinda attitude.  'We're owed better' kinda thing.  Like I said, Mother Nature doesn't give a fuck about humanity.  Also, you think the generations a hundred years ago deserved or enjoyed WWI or the Spanish flu?  You think the 30s and 40s deserved or enjoyed the Depression and WWII?  We don't deserve or enjoy this, but it doesn't mean there's an ability to will ourselves out of it.

Mother Nature is like The Rock right now - "I doesn't matter what you think".

[Lethean]

All caught up on this thread and just wanted to say +1 to jingle's posts.  And hef and Kattelox as well (and I totally agree - just wear the mask!)

I read a few pages back that some are really starting to struggle and I just wanted to say hang in there.  My work has been sending out advice from mental health professionals - a lot of it is kind of common sense but sometimes hearing a reminder can't hurt.  One of the things they've pushed is exercise, and I just wanted to chime in and agree.  It's not a magic pill that makes everything better, but it is so beneficial on many different levels - great for the body in different ways, great for the mind too.  It can make you sharper/improve memory, and it can alleviate and reduce stress an anxiety.  I almost always feel pretty good when I work out, so anecdotally, I second this.  Recently, there were a couple work outs where I just felt *awesome* afterwards.  Course, I was listening to Katatonia during my workout so...  But on a more serious note - if it's not something you're doing now, why not give it a try?  The advice from work including not doing something that is going to stress you out more - for example if too many people are walking in your neighborhood and that increases your personal stress level, then just don't do it and do something else instead.  If you're a complete beginner, just marching or jogging in place in your living room/basement/back yard is a great start that you can build on.

[Northern Lion]

I don't want to sound unfeeling or callous.  But I am sick and tired of this quarantine stuff!  I'm sick and tired of peoples natural rights being taken so willy-nilly by power hungry governments.  Because of all this overbearing government rule stuff, the economy around the world is collapsing, we are heading strait into a worldwide famine, and I just can't take it anymore!

Of course I don't want more people to get sick and die, I don't want that at all.  But I'm a "teach people correctly and let them govern themselves" type of guy.  Businesses are perfectly capable of making changes so their employees and customers can stay safe.  Grocery stores did it, hardware stores did it.  All the ones deemed essential did it just fine!  People should decide if they want to go for a walk or not, or a family outing, or heaven forbid, go to a park without fear of being arrested!  What kind of society have we turned into?

This is all nonsense and I can't stand it anymore!

Sorry for the rant, and I hope I didn't offend anyone.

[TAC]

I don't want to sound unfeeling or callous.  But I am sick and tired of this quarantine stuff!  I'm sick and tired of peoples natural rights being taken so willy-nilly by power hungry governments.  Because of all this overbearing government rule stuff, the economy around the world is collapsing, we are heading strait into a worldwide famine, and I just can't take it anymore!

I totally don't understand this statement. Natural rights? I don't get it.

[Northern Lion]

I don't want to sound unfeeling or callous.  But I am sick and tired of this quarantine stuff!  I'm sick and tired of peoples natural rights being taken so willy-nilly by power hungry governments.  Because of all this overbearing government rule stuff, the economy around the world is collapsing, we are heading strait into a worldwide famine, and I just can't take it anymore!

I totally don't understand this statement. Natural rights? I don't get it.

In the Declaration of Independence of the US it states that rights are granted by God (or nature if you will) and not by governments.  In other words, people are naturally free and governments do not have the authority to curtail those rights in anyway because they don't give them in the first place.

I know it sounds like an archaic idea in this day and age, but it's one I strongly believe in.  I hope that helps.

[TAC]

Well, that's a rebellious document, no? Are you advocating for a rebellion against the government? And then what? Who's in charge? God? A lot of people don't believe in God.
Nature? Are we going to start doing rain dances in the summer?


I mean, even the people that wrote that saw fit to form a government.


So people are fucked in we lock down and people are fucked if we don't lock down, but I just can't get on board with this notion of "taking away our rights." I believe our government is actually trying to protect us. It may or may not do more harm, but this notion of the government oppressing us is...yeah, you said it...archaic.

[The Walrus]

Okay well my little rural town just went from 10 cases to 27 confirmed cases in a day. Who cares if you're sick of it... do your part. Sorry if that sounds callous but this is a group effort and we need everybody's participation.

NOBODY'S RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY OR INFRINGED UPON. If you really feel like they are, you do not know real oppression.

[Northern Lion]

Well, that's a rebellious document, no? Are you advocating for a rebellion against the government? And then what? Who's in charge? God? A lot of people don't believe in God.
Nature? Are we going to start doing rain dances in the summer?

No, that's not exactly where I was going with any of that.  It simply means rights don't come from government, therefore they can't take them away.  Although they certainly do all the time, especially right now, that is the root of my rant and frustration.

I'm not suggesting any civil war or violent conflict of any kind.

[TAC]

But what rights are you talking about? The right to spread a disease?

If they let this rip loose, people'd be bitching about the fact that no one did anything.

I mean, are you advocating the government should've turned a blind eye to this whole thing because..well..rights? there should be NO public policy to help derail this virus?

[Northern Lion]

Okay well my little rural town just went from 10 cases to 27 confirmed cases in a day. Who cares if you're sick of it... do your part. Sorry if that sounds callous but this is a group effort and we need everybody's participation.

NOBODY'S RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY OR INFRINGED UPON. If you really feel like they are, you do not know real oppression.

Kattlelox, I could make a long list, but I'm not going to argue.  I just believe that people and businesses are perfectly capable of social distancing, wearing masks, washing their hands, staying home if they need to and so forth without the heavy hand of government enforcing it.

I'm not opposed to doing any of those things, I do them myself, and I would hope that others do them as well.  But that should be their own choice.

I'm a very very staunch liberty minded person.  So that's where I'm coming from in all of this.

[Northern Lion]

But what rights are you talking about? The right to spread a disease?

If they let this rip loose, people'd be bitching about the fact that no one did anything.

I mean, are you advocating the government should've turned a blind eye to this whole thing because..well..rights? there should be NO public policy to help derail this virus?

TAC, did you read what I said?  I agree the government has the info, and I agree that info should be given to the people as swiftly as possible as well as the gravity of it.  But that's where the governments should have stopped, at least "The Land of the Free" anyway.  As I said, teach people what's correct, and let them govern themselves.  This is hardly me advocating a "blind eye".

Also, please understand, I'm not an anarchist.  I have no problem with government, as long as it leaves it's citizens alone and enacts laws to protect rights and not take them away.

[The Walrus]

Okay well my little rural town just went from 10 cases to 27 confirmed cases in a day. Who cares if you're sick of it... do your part. Sorry if that sounds callous but this is a group effort and we need everybody's participation.

NOBODY'S RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY OR INFRINGED UPON. If you really feel like they are, you do not know real oppression.

Kattlelox, I could make a long list, but I'm not going to argue.  I just believe that people and businesses are perfectly capable of social distancing, wearing masks, washing their hands, staying home if they need to and so forth without the heavy hand of government enforcing it.

I'm not opposed to doing any of those things, I do them myself, and I would hope that others do them as well.  But that should be their own choice.

I'm a very very staunch liberty minded person.  So that's where I'm coming from in all of this.

Your rights are not being taken away. Make your list - they're not being taken away. No offense intended, but I question whether or not you know what real oppression looks like if being told to stay home a little while and wear a mask is infringing on your rights, homie.

For the record... it IS still people's choice to wear a mask. I went into a gas station this evening to get some medicine and forgot to wear my mask. Nobody made a stink. I saw people in the grocery store today (only a couple) without masks - nobody stopped them. This is not tyranny, yo. Ain't nobody hanging out your front door with a rifle threatening you to get back inside

[TAC]

Lion, I didn't say anything about you turning a blind eye.

I just don't think the government should. They can't let this rip. They are doing what they think is right to protect us. And I don't think they're being "willy nilly" or "power hungry" by doing so.  I don't know why anyone would have a problem with that. This ain't North Korea.

[KevShmev]

Not to jump in the middle of this, but...

Kattlelox, I could make a long list, but I'm not going to argue.  I just believe that people and businesses are perfectly capable of social distancing, wearing masks, washing their hands, staying home if they need to and so forth without the heavy hand of government enforcing it.

I'm not opposed to doing any of those things, I do them myself, and I would hope that others do them as well.  But that should be their own choice.

I'm a very very staunch liberty minded person.  So that's where I'm coming from in all of this.

yes, people are capable of it, but being capable of it and actually doing it are two different things.

I am generally a smaller government person, but I feel this instance is one where many need (and I am going to be blunt here) to be protected from their own stupidity, especially since their stupidity could have a widespread effect (like getting others sick and killing them).  I know that sounds harsh, but I think it's true. 

[Northern Lion]

Okay well my little rural town just went from 10 cases to 27 confirmed cases in a day. Who cares if you're sick of it... do your part. Sorry if that sounds callous but this is a group effort and we need everybody's participation.

NOBODY'S RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY OR INFRINGED UPON. If you really feel like they are, you do not know real oppression.

Kattlelox, I could make a long list, but I'm not going to argue.  I just believe that people and businesses are perfectly capable of social distancing, wearing masks, washing their hands, staying home if they need to and so forth without the heavy hand of government enforcing it.

I'm not opposed to doing any of those things, I do them myself, and I would hope that others do them as well.  But that should be their own choice.

I'm a very very staunch liberty minded person.  So that's where I'm coming from in all of this.

Your rights are not being taken away. Make your list - they're not being taken away. No offense intended, but I question whether or not you know what real oppression looks like if being told to stay home a little while and wear a mask is infringing on your rights, homie.

For the record... it IS still people's choice to wear a mask. I went into a gas station this evening to get some medicine and forgot to wear my mask. Nobody made a stink. I saw people in the grocery store today (only a couple) without masks - nobody stopped them. This is not tyranny, yo. Ain't nobody hanging out your front door with a rifle threatening you to get back inside

OK,

People have been arrested going for a walk
people have been arrested going to a park
people have been arrested for going to get pizza
people have been arrested for holding church

Hefty fines have also been given out.

Right to travel, right to assemble and worship, right to commerce, right to not have hefty fines levied against you.  It may not be happening in your neck of the woods (which I'm very grateful for), but it is happening in the US.

And, don't worry, I'm not offended at all.  I'm just frustrated and feeling cooped up.  Which I'm sure many others feel also.  This is just how I react to it.

[The Walrus]

Okay. In those instances, was there a state of emergency/disaster declaration? Is it a violation of rights when people get arrested for violating curfews during hurricanes? Why is this any different?

[Northern Lion]

Lion, I didn't say anything about you turning a blind eye.

I just don't think the government should. They can't let this rip. They are doing what they think is right to protect us. And I don't think they're being "willy nilly" or "power hungry" by doing so.  I don't know why anyone would have a problem with that. This ain't North Korea.

I know you didn't, I must have worded it wrong.  And you're right, we aren't North Korea.  But tyranny is tyranny, even if it's light tyranny.  At least, that's how I see it.

[Lethean]

It's not tyranny.  It's the government doing their job.  The government can't always "leave the citizens alone."  If they did, we wouldn't need government in the first place.  Sometimes we need to have restrictions on certain rights, and this is one of those times.

[KevShmev]

I get being frustrated as a result of being cooped up, but no one gave us the right to do whatever we want, whenever we want. 

[The Walrus]

NL, I just want to say I appreciate your take on this and that I understand how you're feeling, even if I disagree with the overall point.

[Northern Lion]

Okay. In those instances, was there a state of emergency/disaster declaration? Is it a violation of rights when people get arrested for violating curfews during hurricanes? Why is this any different?

Well, I'm sure you are going to think I'm crazy, but yes it is.  "State of emergency" does not equal "take away rights and freedoms".  A state of emergency does not have the authority to suspend the constitution of the united states.

And no worries, I guess the cat is out of the bag with where I sand on things .  Part of me wishes I had just kept my mouth shut, but oh well.

[Northern Lion]

Kattelox, TAC and Kev thanks for sparring a little, and I don't mind that neither of you agree with me, it's totally fine.  I just needed to vent a little and get it off my chest. 

[The Walrus]

All good, fam. No ill will or mean spirits here. It's nice to have a civil disagreement. Stay healthy and safe.

[Ben_Jamin]

I get your frustrations NL.

Here's a question. If you got tested, and you find out you had it already before this lockdown, and visited Grandma, how would you react?

[Northern Lion]

I get your frustrations NL.

Here's a question. If you got tested, and you find out you had it already before this lockdown, and visited Grandma, how would you react?

That's a good question.  I would be scared out of my wits, but there's also nothing I could do about it.  If I had known, I wouldn't have gone to visit in the first place.

[Ben_Jamin]

I get your frustrations NL.

Here's a question. If you got tested, and you find out you had it already before this lockdown, and visited Grandma, how would you react?

That's a good question.  I would be scared out of my wits, but there's also nothing I could do about it.  If I had known, I wouldn't have gone to visit in the first place.

What if, Grandma is fine?

[Northern Lion]

I get your frustrations NL.

Here's a question. If you got tested, and you find out you had it already before this lockdown, and visited Grandma, how would you react?

That's a good question.  I would be scared out of my wits, but there's also nothing I could do about it.  If I had known, I wouldn't have gone to visit in the first place.

What if, Grandma is fine?

Then hallelujah!  Praise the Lord!  And I can rest easy at home while I get better.

Freedom is one of the governing principles of my life, but with that freedom comes responsibility.  I just want to make that choice myself instead of government making it for me.

[jammindude]

"A person is smart.  People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

Unfortunately....this is why governance in general is necessary and vital.   

[The Walrus]

Then hallelujah!  Praise the Lord!  And I can rest easy at home while I get better.

Freedom is one of the governing principles of my life, but with that freedom comes responsibility.  I just want to make that choice myself instead of government making it for me.

NL, sounds like you need to watch Westworld. 

[Ben_Jamin]

I get your frustrations NL.

Here's a question. If you got tested, and you find out you had it already before this lockdown, and visited Grandma, how would you react?

That's a good question.  I would be scared out of my wits, but there's also nothing I could do about it.  If I had known, I wouldn't have gone to visit in the first place.

What if, Grandma is fine?

Then hallelujah!  Praise the Lord!  And I can rest easy at home while I get better.

Wouldn't that mean you possibly infected grandma, yet she's ok.

Freedom is one of the governing principles of my life, but with that freedom comes responsibility.  I just want to make that choice myself instead of government making it for me.

See that's what it comes down to for me. We are all responsible people, its now that we have to be more responsible than usual.