Dream Theater: The Astonishing (now with moment of betrayal!)

[Evermind]

The best part of this song was absolutely the quiet intro. I liked the bombastic follow-up too, but the first twenty second or so were my favourite. I look forward to more parts like that on the album.

And yeah, this song isn't much more different from DT12 stuff for me. Alright track and certainly can be great in context of the album, but I'm not digging it that much. I did like the bridge and the lyrics overall. I think this song will grow on me when I get my hands on the full album.

[ErHaO]

I think people may be referring to there being frequent parts in the songs where one can hear multiple Labrie's singing at one time. As a power/symphonic metal fan I am used to that and I like it (when done right), but I can see why people do not like it.

Also, I think the cymballs are loud enough. I can clearly hear them and I personally do not like them very loud and in front. But that is personal preference, offcourse. I do agree they could be a tad louder at the start though, to capture that epic feeling.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I feel like Mangini sounds like a kid just banging away at his new drum set.

I'm no Mangini lover, but seriously? Portnoy used one fill all the time and you insult Mangini's fills? 

I find Mangini to actually be more musical than Portnoy.

Wow. I love Mangini and all, but I do think this is a controversial opinion. 

[GandL]

At first listen, it was meh ! But after second and 3rd now I dig it, cool song, I like it.

[rab7]

I feel like Mangini sounds like a kid just banging away at his new drum set.

I'm no Mangini lover, but seriously? Portnoy used one fill all the time and you insult Mangini's fills? 

I find Mangini to actually be more musical than Portnoy.

Wow. I love Mangini and all, but I do think this is a controversial opinion. 

I'm unsure what different people define as "musical". I personally enjoy Portnoy's drumming a lot more because it always sounded interesting. His drums would sing their own parts rather than be an accompaniment like most drum parts. I think that's what people are defining as "musical."

Using this definition, the most "musical" thing I've heard from Mangini is his cymbal patterns during the main riff of The Enemy Inside. Everything else he does seems to just mirror the rhythm of the guitars or keyboards. I'm not denying his talent and skills, and I'm nowhere near the "Portnoy needs to come back" camp, but his parts just don't seem to sing like Portnoy's did.

[Enigmachine]

I adored the song, it reminded me what I liked most about the last two albums with a ton of energy and bombastic melodies. The sound quality wasn't great but that's to be expected from a conversion to a radio show.

[ansell]

It blows my mind that there is 70 odd minutes of music to hear between these 2 songs, and another 70ish after Monent of Betrayal.

 

[Kotowboy]

That would be well over 140 minutes

The entire album is 130 minutes.

[ansell]

That would be well over 140 minutes

The entire album is 130 minutes.

Hence my use of 'odd' and 'ish' 

...math is hard.

[Kotowboy]

Yeah it's funny that we've heard two songs off the new album and there's still 2 whole hours left to hear

[bosk1]

But like, listen to the first big hits of Moment of Betrayal.. everything sounds huge and massive, except for his crash cymbals.

This I agree with. Those are some really weak sounding crash hits. Like the cymbals were still grumpy over having to get out of bed early.

  Not sure I feel exactly the same based on your description, but close enough.  Yeah, I have noticed that too.  I don't want to take away from Mangini's playing in any respect.  But while the production on his drums isn't bad by most standards, it just doesn't have the punch that I am used to in DT's music, and I do miss that.  But I cannot understate how difficult drums are to produce well in a mix.  Yes, I will concede that it isn't completely a lost art because a LOT of bands out there do it well.  But there have also been a lot of bands (probably more than the bands that do it well) that have had less than ideal drum tracks on their recordings.  I know this is a dated example, but I have mentioned before that I first really became aware of how difficult it must be as a result of years of listening to Jimmy DeGrasso.  I saw him live on numerous occasions in the '80s and '90s and was well aware of what a beast of a drummer he is (still one of my favorites to this day).  But none of the stuff he did with Y&T or most of his other projects during that time period really stood out in terms of the drum sound.  His stuff with Suicidal Tendencies sounded a bit better.  But it wasn't until his time in Megadeth that his drums were really recorded and reproduced well.  Say what you will about the music during his tenure, but the drum sound is amazing.  Same drummer, but completely different sound depending on who was recording/engineering the sound.  As a fan of DT, I just wish that they could find this "missing piece" and reproduce Magini's parts in a way that shows off his power as a drummer as well.

[V_R11]

The thing with DT for me is that I very rarely purely love what I hear at the first time, but the more I listen to it, the more it grows on me. That's the beauty of this band for me. Definitely pumped to hear the rest 

[The Stray Seed]

I'm really impressed by the drumming, what a punch!! I absolutely love the rythmic section, it is so interesting from start to finish. Actually, everything in this song is impressive. Inspired, cohesive and melodic songwriting, excellent balance between instruments and such a natural flow in the music, one of the greatest build-ups since Finally Free. Can't help but listening again and again, and it keeps growing! Oh boy, you nailed it DT!!!

[erciccio]

But like, listen to the first big hits of Moment of Betrayal.. everything sounds huge and massive, except for his crash cymbals.

This I agree with. Those are some really weak sounding crash hits. Like the cymbals were still grumpy over having to get out of bed early.

  Not sure I feel exactly the same based on your description, but close enough.  Yeah, I have noticed that too.  I don't want to take away from Mangini's playing in any respect.  But while the production on his drums isn't bad by most standards, it just doesn't have the punch that I am used to in DT's music, and I do miss that.  But I cannot understate how difficult drums are to produce well in a mix.  Yes, I will concede that it isn't completely a lost art because a LOT of bands out there do it well.  But there have also been a lot of bands (probably more than the bands that do it well) that have had less than ideal drum tracks on their recordings.  I know this is a dated example, but I have mentioned before that I first really became aware of how difficult it must be as a result of years of listening to Jimmy DeGrasso.  I saw him live on numerous occasions in the '80s and '90s and was well aware of what a beast of a drummer he is (still one of my favorites to this day).  But none of the stuff he did with Y&T or most of his other projects during that time period really stood out in terms of the drum sound.  His stuff with Suicidal Tendencies sounded a bit better.  But it wasn't until his time in Megadeth that his drums were really recorded and reproduced well.  Say what you will about the music during his tenure, but the drum sound is amazing.  Same drummer, but completely different sound depending on who was recording/engineering the sound.  As a fan of DT, I just wish that they could find this "missing piece" and reproduce Magini's parts in a way that shows off his power as a drummer as well.

I agree with you.
The doubt I have is that the Band (John Petrucci in primis) probably likes and is at ease with this kind of "drums sound", and they don't understand precisely what we are missing in there...
I don't know why, probably they didn't like the "over-the-top" style of Portnoy, and they prefer a more "mechanical" drumming that is more a pure frame to the rest of the music rather than a "primary" instrument...
I think it's a pity, because I love MM's style and where it stands out it really adds value to the songs (like in the Enemy Inside, where I think also the sound matches the song mood)

[jsbru]

It makes sense that they would debut Moment of Betrayal in the context of a metal radio show. It's easily one of the most metal and most straightforward things on the album. But of course this choice in the context of the other marketing activities goes further down the misleading path of the trailer, indicating that the album is much more along the lines of modern heavy DT (think DT12) than it really is. The intro before the verse riff kicks in, particularly the first ~22 seconds with just the piano and the violin (or is it a cello?), are actually more representative of a good chunk of the album than the metal song that follows is.

That's good, because that was my favorite part of the song.  I even liked the first verse being heavy the way it was.  The chorus was pretty cliché, though.  And the pre-chorus was a bit out of place.  As long as what you say is true, and as long as Petrucci's solos remain as good as this, I'm still very excited for this album.

[bosk1]

Noxon, that was a great review.  That was really a well thought out approach, and I think it came off well in the execution.  Nice job.

One thought on this:

And when the conflict is resolved, and the story gets a happy ending, the songs become hopeful and anthemic. And yet, completely fresh sounding. Melodic rock and pop done absolutely to perfection. “Our New World” has the most catchy chorus from Dream Theater in a long time – I absolutely love it. And then there’s the credit sequence. Or that’s what it feels like at least. The title track feels a bit out of place, following the strong “Our New World”, because it already felt like we had our victory celebration, and this track comes along with yet another anthem.

I still have not heard the entire album, so I can only speculate a bit about context, but I will suggest a slightly different way of viewing it that seems to make sense to me both in terms of context AND how this sort of thing has been handled on some other prog concept albums I have heard (as well as some operas/musicals/theater productions).  Rather than being viewed as a "credit sequence," does it make sense more as an "epilogue?"  I say that because the function of an epilogue is often along the lines of, "Here is a bit of a recap of the ending and some a bit of a teaser into what happened to the characters next just to give a sense that life is continuing on after the story and things are still happening that are shaped by our story, even if the main part of the story itself has been resolved."

[bosk1]

I agree with you.
The doubt I have is that the Band (John Petrucci in primis) probably likes and is at ease with this kind of "drums sound", and they don't understand precisely what we are missing in there...
I don't know why, probably they didn't like the "over-the-top" style of Portnoy, and they prefer a more "mechanical" drumming that is more a pure frame to the rest of the music rather than a "primary" instrument...
I think it's a pity, because I love MM's style and where it stands out it really adds value to the songs (like in the Enemy Inside, where I think also the sound matches the song mood)

I don't know that it is necessarily that they didn't "like" how Portnoy had his drums recorded and produced.  I think the much more likely scenario is simply that they just aren't as focused on the drum sound and don't have anyone onboard as part of the team that knows how to get a better overall drum sound.  When Portnoy was in the band, he and Petrucci co-produced and seemed to be much more in charge of the final sound.  As a drummer AND a type-A personality, Portnoy would have pushed to have the drum sound more up front and sounding a certain way.  And either he or whoever they had working on the album knew how to capture the sound Mike wanted.  I think Petrucci is more focused on the sound of the lead instruments (his guitar sound, the keyboards, and the vocals), and without Portnoy present, I think (and this is pure speculation) that the drum sound just gets neglected a bit, and without anyone there to push it or who knows how to produce it with that sound we are used to, it just doesn't happen.

[wolven74]

I love the song as a whole, but I do want something different than DT12. Something that breathes. Thats why the intro to this song is so great. I felt a bit disappointed when the metal guitars kicked in, as we've heard that already in TGOM. I wanted something different in the second release from this album. Glad the majority of this album--according to reviews--is softer, more acoustic. I love JPs clean sounds.

That being said, I do love that when the metal kicks in on this track it's not busy. It's something you can bob your head to. It's definitely got groove.

[obelix5150]

But like, listen to the first big hits of Moment of Betrayal.. everything sounds huge and massive, except for his crash cymbals.

This I agree with. Those are some really weak sounding crash hits. Like the cymbals were still grumpy over having to get out of bed early.

  Not sure I feel exactly the same based on your description, but close enough.  Yeah, I have noticed that too.  I don't want to take away from Mangini's playing in any respect.  But while the production on his drums isn't bad by most standards, it just doesn't have the punch that I am used to in DT's music, and I do miss that.  But I cannot understate how difficult drums are to produce well in a mix.  Yes, I will concede that it isn't completely a lost art because a LOT of bands out there do it well.  But there have also been a lot of bands (probably more than the bands that do it well) that have had less than ideal drum tracks on their recordings.  I know this is a dated example, but I have mentioned before that I first really became aware of how difficult it must be as a result of years of listening to Jimmy DeGrasso.  I saw him live on numerous occasions in the '80s and '90s and was well aware of what a beast of a drummer he is (still one of my favorites to this day).  But none of the stuff he did with Y&T or most of his other projects during that time period really stood out in terms of the drum sound.  His stuff with Suicidal Tendencies sounded a bit better.  But it wasn't until his time in Megadeth that his drums were really recorded and reproduced well.  Say what you will about the music during his tenure, but the drum sound is amazing.  Same drummer, but completely different sound depending on who was recording/engineering the sound.  As a fan of DT, I just wish that they could find this "missing piece" and reproduce Magini's parts in a way that shows off his power as a drummer as well.

Yes, drums are a real drag to mix. But it's Chycki.. that guy has worked with so much high level talent. I am still waiting for the day when they call up Jens Bogren or Jacob Hansen to do one of their mixes...

More specific to what I've heard from TA.. The drums don't sound -bad- (to me). It's definitely a completely different ballgame compared to the hyper-real raw tones of an album like 6 Degrees, but I don't mind it. I just don't absolutely love it - I'll never be using this record's drum sound as a reference for one of my own mixes or what I want another mixing engineer to shoot for. And I'm consistently disappointed with how weak and small all of Mangini's cymbal sounds on the DT studio albums are. (I thought for a while that it was because he doesn't hit too hard when he's recording, but he's hardly The Animal for much of Breaking The Fourth Wall and his cymbals sound fine there) Will it break my enjoyment of TA? No way. But it's a shame that such an indisputably high level band can't get a correspondingly high level mix.

(I'm of course hesitant to evaluate a mix based on such a low quality stream, but it does sound to me like the mix as a whole is working - the guitars are smoother than I'd expect for a heavy song but they work, and I love how forward the keys are. I'm not so sure about how highly processed LaBrie is, and I wish the orchestra was given a little more sonic space to really make things sound massive in parts like the end. But on the whole I'd say this is the best mix of the MM era.. maybe on record #4 with MM they'll finally get that whole snare drum thing down! )

[Another_Won]

I agree with you.
The doubt I have is that the Band (John Petrucci in primis) probably likes and is at ease with this kind of "drums sound", and they don't understand precisely what we are missing in there...
I don't know why, probably they didn't like the "over-the-top" style of Portnoy, and they prefer a more "mechanical" drumming that is more a pure frame to the rest of the music rather than a "primary" instrument...
I think it's a pity, because I love MM's style and where it stands out it really adds value to the songs (like in the Enemy Inside, where I think also the sound matches the song mood)

I don't know that it is necessarily that they didn't "like" how Portnoy had his drums recorded and produced.  I think the much more likely scenario is simply that they just aren't as focused on the drum sound and don't have anyone onboard as part of the team that knows how to get a better overall drum sound.  When Portnoy was in the band, he and Petrucci co-produced and seemed to be much more in charge of the final sound.  As a drummer AND a type-A personality, Portnoy would have pushed to have the drum sound more up front and sounding a certain way.  And either he or whoever they had working on the album knew how to capture the sound Mike wanted.  I think Petrucci is more focused on the sound of the lead instruments (his guitar sound, the keyboards, and the vocals), and without Portnoy present, I think (and this is pure speculation) that the drum sound just gets neglected a bit, and without anyone there to push it or who knows how to produce it with that sound we are used to, it just doesn't happen.

Exactly this.  I've always thought this when reading about the difference in the drum sounds.

[chwik]

Well, THAT was disappointing

Why?

I didn't really hear anything different than anything off of DT12 with MOB. Maybe within context of entire album it will resonate better with me.

Fair point. Yes, it makes sense in the story of the album. And if my memory (or "neurologically wired" bias as a DT fan) is not playing tricks on me; this is the most straight forward progmetal track on the album, which means you still have 120 min of varied material to look forward to (plus, noxons review basically confirms this, and I think he was not completely satisfied with DT12).

[emtee]

I feel pretty confident that if we were able to hook a truth detector up to JP and ask him about the drums and the focus on the drums
he would say they put an incredible amount of time, energy and focus on trying to get it right. But there is a bottom line reality here
(well in my mind anyways) that the percussive department of MM is lacking in recorded quality as compared with earlier DT albums.
And when you hear MM talking about it, it's always 'this washes out that and that washes out this and when we try A it bleeds into
B and C suffers as a result. As Bosk mentioned, yes it's difficult but I have too many modern albums that have beautiful, warm
full bodied drum sounds and crisp clear cymbal sounds so I know it's not impossible. I guess if the entire DT team is OK with the
drums and cymbals then we are all wasting our energy talking about it. We have to come to terms with the fact that, for some of
us, when the drummer changed, the drummers sounds also changed. Permanently. And in fairness, since I don't have the album
yet and have not been able to play it through my home system, these comments could change. I may actually like it.

[bosk1]

^Well said.  I agree.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I think that what bosk says might be true to a certain level, but there's something that also has to be taken into account: Portnoy plays TAMA drums, Mangini plays PEARL, and those two brands sound entirely different. Portnoy plays Sabian cymbals and Mangini plays Zidjian symbals, and those two brands sound entirely different. They play in entirely different styles, they use different mics, their drum placement in the studio is different so the bleed from each mic signal will affect the overall sound of the entire thing. Mangini is MUCH more precise metronome-wise, so no wonder he sounds like a human machine sometimes as opposed to Portnoy, who usually has a very organic/flawed sound to his playing.

The overall drum producing experience with both drummers seems like an entirely different beast, and we had been used to a certian drum sound for over 20 years so getting something different can be distracting at first.

One thing is for certain, I don't know if there's a Portnoy record that sounds bad drum-wise. His recordings are usually amazing.

[adastra]

I can't pinpoint the part that sounds like The Great Debate

[chwik]

I can't pinpoint the part that sounds like The Great Debate

Well, if you look closely there is a Great Debate going on in this thread 

[shadow1psc]

I think that what bosk says might be true to a certain level, but there's something that also has to be taken into account: Portnoy plays TAMA drums, Mangini plays PEARL, and those two brands sound entirely different. Portnoy plays Sabian cymbals and Mangini plays Zidjian symbals, and those two brands sound entirely different. They play in entirely different styles, they use different mics, their drum placement in the studio is different so the bleed from each mic signal will affect the overall sound of the entire thing. Mangini is MUCH more precise metronome-wise, so no wonder he sounds like a human machine sometimes as opposed to Portnoy, who usually has a very organic/flawed sound to his playing.

The overall drum producing experience with both drummers seems like an entirely different beast, and we had been used to a certian drum sound for over 20 years, so getting something different can be distracting at first.

One thing is for certain, I don't know if there's a Portnoy record that sounds bad drum-wise. His recordings are usually amazing.

As a drummer, I can tell you that there isn't going to be a different sound between brands. Not one discernable after EQ, Compression and mixing. The difference in drums (and to a lesser extent, cymbals) comes in the material used, and the size of it. Then you have the heads and how they're tuned (the biggest factor), and then the stick, tip, how the drummer plays, etc. Then you've also gotta consider the room, the microphones used, the technique used with said microphones etc etc. Not saying your comment is wrong, but the basis is off.

[Kotowboy]

I can't pinpoint the part that sounds like The Great Debate

Well, if you look closely there is a Great Debate going on in this thread 

[obelix5150]

I think that what bosk says might be true to a certain level, but there's something that also has to be taken into account: Portnoy plays TAMA drums, Mangini plays PEARL, and those two brands sound entirely different. Portnoy plays Sabian cymbals and Mangini plays Zidjian symbals, and those two brands sound entirely different. They play in entirely different styles, they use different mics, their drum placement in the studio is different so the bleed from each mic signal will affect the overall sound of the entire thing. Mangini is MUCH more precise metronome-wise, so no wonder he sounds like a human machine sometimes as opposed to Portnoy, who usually has a very organic/flawed sound to his playing.

The overall drum producing experience with both drummers seems like an entirely different beast, and we had been used to a certian drum sound for over 20 years, so getting something different can be distracting at first.

One thing is for certain, I don't know if there's a Portnoy record that sounds bad drum-wise. His recordings are usually amazing.

As a drummer, I can tell you that there isn't going to be a different sound between brands. Not one discernable after EQ, Compression and mixing. The difference in drums (and to a lesser extent, cymbals) comes in the material used, and the size of it. Then you have the heads and how they're tuned (the biggest factor), and then the stick, tip, how the drummer plays, etc. Then you've also gotta consider the room, the microphones used, the technique used with said microphones etc etc. Not saying your comment is wrong, but the basis is off.

ultimately, pretty true. It's not like all Zildjians are smaller and weaker sounding than all Sabians (actually my limited experience with the two has been the exact opposite). The biggest difference in sound between the two is probably the way they physically approach the drums more than anything else (which is pretty clear if you compare that one clinic Enemy Inside video to any of the videos of Portnoy tracking in the studio). It's also a question of the aesthetics they are going for - I feel like now post MP in the Chycki era, they are consciously going for really triggered mechanized sounding tones. So rather than general incompetence, I would say that it's just the aesthetic style they're going for - and it happens to not be my favorite. (That being said, I do wanna be clear that I don't -HATE- this drum tone, and I actually think it can suit the music at times, like in The Gift of Music)

[bosk1]

I think that what bosk says might be true to a certain level, but there's something that also has to be taken into account: Portnoy plays TAMA drums, Mangini plays PEARL, and those two brands sound entirely different. Portnoy plays Sabian cymbals and Mangini plays Zidjian symbals, and those two brands sound entirely different. They play in entirely different styles, they use different mics, their drum placement in the studio is different so the bleed from each mic signal will affect the overall sound of the entire thing. Mangini is MUCH more precise metronome-wise, so no wonder he sounds like a human machine sometimes as opposed to Portnoy, who usually has a very organic/flawed sound to his playing.

Honestly, I don't think it is a Tama vs. Pearl or a Sabian vs. Zildjian thing at all.  Yes, they sound different.  But two things to consider:
1.  There are LOTS of artists that play Pearl and/or Zildjian that sound amazing.
2.  Live recordings of Mangini typically sound MUCH better.
That leads me to believe it is strictly a recording and production issue, and not an instrument/playing issue. 

One thing is for certain, I don't know if there's a Portnoy record that sounds bad drum-wise. His recordings are usually amazing.

That is true NOW, but I wouldn't say that was the case from the get-go.  WDADU...everything sounds bad, so you can't really single out the drums.  With I&W, I don't think he has a great drum sound, even aside from the triggered snare.  Awake is better, but still lacking.  But from then on, I agree.  I think Portnoy learned fairly early on how to capture a good drum sound, and has worked with guys at the production stage who get it as well, and he has benefitted from that.

The overall drum producing experience with both drummers seems like an entirely different beast, and we had been used to a certian drum sound for over 20 years so getting something different can be distracting at first.

Yes.  And, to some degree, I get that it is just "different," and I try to back off my own preferences and what I am "used to" when offering any critique.  But that said, while I wouldn't say the drum sound is "bad," it could be a lot better than it is, and a lot of fans have recognized that.  It isn't just that it is different and may not fit our preferences based on DT's past sound.  We just feel that it definitely could benefit from being improved.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I think that what bosk says might be true to a certain level, but there's something that also has to be taken into account: Portnoy plays TAMA drums, Mangini plays PEARL, and those two brands sound entirely different. Portnoy plays Sabian cymbals and Mangini plays Zidjian symbals, and those two brands sound entirely different. They play in entirely different styles, they use different mics, their drum placement in the studio is different so the bleed from each mic signal will affect the overall sound of the entire thing. Mangini is MUCH more precise metronome-wise, so no wonder he sounds like a human machine sometimes as opposed to Portnoy, who usually has a very organic/flawed sound to his playing.

The overall drum producing experience with both drummers seems like an entirely different beast, and we had been used to a certian drum sound for over 20 years, so getting something different can be distracting at first.

One thing is for certain, I don't know if there's a Portnoy record that sounds bad drum-wise. His recordings are usually amazing.

As a drummer, I can tell you that there isn't going to be a different sound between brands. Not one discernable after EQ, Compression and mixing. The difference in drums (and to a lesser extent, cymbals) comes in the material used, and the size of it. Then you have the heads and how they're tuned (the biggest factor), and then the stick, tip, how the drummer plays, etc. Then you've also gotta consider the room, the microphones used, the technique used with said microphones etc etc. Not saying your comment is wrong, but the basis is off.

I'm not a drummer myself, but I've worked with a lot of them and there's usually a big 'opinion' of Sabian being better sounding than Zidjian and so forth. I don't have a drum-trained ear, so I hear them both just fine. But, as with a lot of piano sounds, there are some that get along with mixes very well and there are some who don't, so I reckon it's something similar to that extent. It's good to have someone to clarify me the details, but I know that every recording is bound to sound different unless you replicate the room, the mics, the mic position, the preamps, the FX chain, the instrument, the musician, etc. so my point was based around that premise.

Thanks for the clarification, though. 

[RMGadelha]

I can't pinpoint the part that sounds like The Great Debate

The first pre-chorus that starts with the word "through".

[Progmetty]

I feel like Mangini sounds like a kid just banging away at his new drum set.

I'm no Mangini lover, but seriously? Portnoy used one fill all the time and you insult Mangini's fills? 

I find Mangini to actually be more musical than Portnoy. When you tune in and really listen and study to what he's doing its amazing. And I found that watching his Enemy Inside video I discovered even more cool things that I can now hear when I put the track on. Love these things!

100% with you on that.

[adastra]

I can't pinpoint the part that sounds like The Great Debate

The first pre-chorus that starts with the word "through".

Oh   Well there's the reason i didn't find it!!!   It doesn't TGD at all!   

[Kotowboy]

Nor do I .