Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[GuineaPig]

True, but there is also a difference between the story and the plot, and differing opinions on which is which.  To me, the basic story is of a guy who started off good, with good intentions, who through a series of tragedies and lack of proper guidance, became something very, very evil.  That's not a bad story right there, if a bit cliché.

It's how it all played out that most people have trouble with.  I think of that as the plot.  Or hell, maybe that's the story and the outline is the plot.  Which is which?

I think the story and plot are very much intertwined.  I was under the impression that when people refer to "story" rather than the plot, is that the "story" includes the thematic elements in addition to plot.  But I may be off base.

The "basic story" you describe of the prequels is one shared by literally thousands of works of fiction.  It's not a useful descriptor, because it's so vague and reductive.  By boiling down the entirety of what happens to a couple of words, one can make anything sound like anything else, or sound compelling.  Just to give two other noteworty (and visual examples), The Godfather films and Breaking Bad both share the same "basic story."  But they are both very different (and far superior), because when you're working off the basis of something as simple as that, execution is 99%. 

If we're going to be this vague, one could just as easily apply the "Well, the core story is good!" argument to loads of other dreck.  Twilight, or Battleship, or that endless string of awful parody movies, etc.

[Orbert]

But that's still essentially true.  Movies often get made because there's just enough "core story" to string together a series of explosions or car crashes or tit scenes or dudes beating the shit out of each other.  Whatever you have.  Sometimes movies get made because they really do tell a great story.  Anakin Skywalker's basic story isn't bad, it really is the execution that sucked.  The dialogue.  The missing scenes that would've made his motivations more clear.  The too-many scenes of crap because Lucas thought it was really a love story or something.

But the more I think about it, the more I realize that I don't know the difference between "story" and "plot" other than that I'm sure they mean different things. 

[ReaPsTA]

From what I can tell, you guys are basically right.  A story is a journey a character goes through.  The plot is simply what happens.

The story in the prequels is wrong, and the plot is a mess.

[Orbert]

[The King in Crimson]

"You'll always shoot first with Hahn." 

[Dream Team]

One of those weird things - even though my oldest daughter has all 6 episodes on DVD, I watched portions of AOTC and ROTS this past week while Spike was airing them. As I watch, I'm trying to decide with my wife (who is only half-watching and not much of a fan) is Christensen REALLY that shitty of an actor, or is it mostly Lucas' writing and directing? Or is it 50-50? Impossible to tell really, I just know my youngest daughter, all of 13, was making fun of his acting. 

[Adami]

Hayden was quite good in Shattered Glass. I blame mostly Lucas for having no clue how to direct actors (as everyone who has worked with him has said). But Hayden clearly didn't understand the character either.

[Kotowboy]

Plus shooting entirely on Green Screen can't motivate you as an actor very well. As Ewen Mcgregor has said many times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlc01vH8kLU&t=8m01s

[Cool Chris]

But Hayden clearly didn't understand the character either.

I've seen Episodes 1-3 probably 3 times each and I don't understand that character either.

Is Darth Malak the most annoyingly difficult enemy in the history of video games?

[zepp-head]

I never had trouble understanding Anakin, I love his character actually, but Hayden definitely didn't have a whole hell of a lot to go on. 

And yes, he was good in Shattered Glass despite being overshadowed by Peter Sarsgaard.  People who knew Glass in real life said the performance was spot on.  There are a lot of great actors in the prequels but a lot of flat performances.

[Adami]

Yea I'd say that when you have Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson, Natalie Portman, Jar Jar Binx, and Samuel L. Jackson in movies and still can only get mediocre performances at best, then the fault is with Lucas.

[King Postwhore]

Yea I'd say that when you have Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson, Natalie Portman, Jar Jar Binx, and Samuel L. Jackson in movies and still can only get mediocre performances at best, then the fault is with Lucas.

You sly devil.  Well I blame Lucas anyway.  His love scenes were the worst in history.  Even deaf people shuttered.

[Vivace]

I'll take it one step further:

Lucas didn't understand the character of Anakin.

[Pols Voice]

Christensen was badly miscast.

[Adami]

Christensen was badly miscast.

While I agree....I gotta ask, who would you have cast? Is there really anyone who would have delivered those lines better and have been a better Anakin based solely on the already written scripts?

[zepp-head]

Yea I'd say that when you have Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson, Natalie Portman, Jar Jar Binx, and Samuel L. Jackson in movies and still can only get mediocre performances at best, then the fault is with Lucas.

Or even some of the bit parts by good actors/actresses like Rose Byrne.

Christensen was badly miscast.

While I agree....I gotta ask, who would you have cast? Is there really anyone who would have delivered those lines better and have been a better Anakin based solely on the already written scripts?

That's the dilemma, nobody has really ever offered a viable alternative.  Early talks were about Leo DiCaprio and nobody liked the idea and thought it would be an awful choice, and at the time, it likely would have been since that was pre-Scorcese and Nolan Leo.

[Phoenix87x]

I would have liked to see what Tom Hardy would have done with the role. He just has a presence about him where I respect and find him captivating.

Hayden on the other hand, I just don't find appealing, whether its Star Wars or any of his other work.

[Adami]

I would have liked to see what Tom Hardy would have done with the role. He just has a presence about him where I respect and find him somewhat captivating.

Hayden on the other hand, I just don't find appealing, whether its Star Wars or any of his other work.

Considering how terrible he was in Star Trek, I doubt he would have been any better in Star Wars. And I like Tom Hardy, but he's still bound by the script and directing.

[Pols Voice]

Christensen was badly miscast.

While I agree....I gotta ask, who would you have cast? Is there really anyone who would have delivered those lines better and have been a better Anakin based solely on the already written scripts?

Well, the character wasn't well written at all, but I think Hayden was a dud. He's not how I pictured Anakin. There isn't a known actor I can think of who would have worked, but Hayden wasn't really that well known either.

[Adami]

It depends on how he's written. As it is, Anakin is written poorly and can't be played as anything other than what we have seen.


However thinking about it now, I would have removed the overly emotional whiny kid angle. I would have had young Anakin be an idealist and a romantic who is forced to rid himself of emotions by the Jedi. As he then grows emotionless, he uses his cold logic to determine that the Jedi must be exterminated in order to bring about a perfect sense of order. It would also play much more into the Darth Vader we knew from the other movies.

[Pols Voice]

It depends on how he's written. As it is, Anakin is written poorly and can't be played as anything other than what we have seen.

For me, Hayden's acting was just dull and lifeless. Somebody with more spark could inject some life into the bad dialogue, so I could say "What a poorly done character, but at least the acting's great!" The original trilogy has some corny lines, but the cast was more charismatic. And Ewan McGregor was great as Obi-Wan, but didn't have the best material to work with. But yeah, maybe Lucas wanted a dull, lifeless Anakin, so any actor in the role would have been pretty similar.

[Vivace]

It wouldn't have mattered who was casted in the role of Anakin. The problems were already present in the Phantom Menace. When you have actors like Liam Neeson, Ewan MacGregor and Natalie Portman who all had excellent performances in the past and now all three have lifeless, uninspired characters here, it's no longer a question of who you cast but of Russian Roulette. You could have cast Patrick Steward in the role and I bet it wouldn't have changed a thing. Granted, Hayden isn't established like the three I mentioned above, but I have heard he has potential. Anakin was just a poorly written and conceived character the minute Lucas decided he wanted to flesh out his past. As mentioned his whiny attitude, complete disregard for any authority, self-centered, self righteous attitude (same issues with the new James Kirk mind you) pretty much guaranteed that most people will simply try and pretend this character profile does not exist.

[MetalJunkie]

But Hayden clearly didn't understand the character either.

Is Darth Malak the most annoyingly difficult enemy in the history of video games?

What? He's easy. Just destroy the "human batteries" he uses.

[orcus116]

Found this over at my parents house:



Now to track down the other two.

[senecadawg2]

Yea I'd say that when you have Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson, Natalie Portman, Jar Jar Binx, and Samuel L. Jackson in movies and still can only get mediocre performances at best, then the fault is with Lucas.

 

[The King in Crimson]

Well, Jar Jar has been good in every other movie I've seen him in.

[senecadawg2]

 

Seriously... Jar Jar is a perfect example of how sometimes a 'comic relief' character can go terribly wrong.

[Pols Voice]

It's Binks, not Binx. The more you know.

[zepp-head]

Skids and Mudflap. 

[Adami]

Skids and Mudflap. 

I might talk smack about the Star Wars prequels, but Transformers 2 is the worst movie I have ever seen in my life that wasn't trying to be bad. I'd rather watch the prequels over and over than Transformers 2.

[Zook]

Skids and Mudflap. 

They were supposed to be comic relief?

[Super Dude]

Skids and Mudflap. 

I might talk smack about the Star Wars prequels, but Transformers 2 is the worst movie I have ever seen in my life that wasn't trying to be bad. I'd rather watch the prequels over and over than Transformers 2.

...Implying that the prequels were trying to be bad?

Skids and Mudflap. 

They were supposed to be comic relief?

I gotta second that.

[Adami]

Skids and Mudflap. 

I might talk smack about the Star Wars prequels, but Transformers 2 is the worst movie I have ever seen in my life that wasn't trying to be bad. I'd rather watch the prequels over and over than Transformers 2.

...Implying that the prequels were trying to be bad?

Not at all. Implying that Transformers 2 was immensely worse than any of the prequels.

[Orbert]

Found this over at my parents house:



Now to track down the other two.

Sweet!




Han shot first.




 

[Super Dude]

Speaking of which, I was going through some old records at my grandparents' house (my girlfriend got me a record player for my birthday a year ago and it finally occurred to me to ask if they had some records), and I found the original 1977 soundtrack. I'm gonna go get it from them next week.