Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Tom Bombadil]

My controversial opinion is that I like every song on BC&SL. ANTR has great riffs, and while some may be repeated too much, the song progresses well, not to mention that Beautiful Agony is...well, beautiful. AROP has one my favorite DT choruses, an admittedly good guitar solo, and an admittedly bad keyboard solo, but not so bad that it detracts from the song. Wither is nothing special, but it's a well written song. The Shattered Fortress is my favorite of the 12 step songs, because it doesn't just rehash old ideas. It actually makes them fit in the album,  makes them sound new again, and takes them in new directions. TBOT has so much emotion in the beginning and the final guitar solo, and the middle isn't bad itself. TCOT is just epic. Sure, there are weaknesses in the lyrics, but the song does take me for a ride. The album promises a vast adventure, and it delivers. And to all the haters of this album, this is what I think. Please try to forgive.

How exactly is The Shattered Fortress not just rehashing old ideas? The first 9 minutes are straight from other 12SS songs, which is precisely why I don't like that song.

[Zyzzyva17]

I agree that most of the song is taken from previous parts, but almost everything that returns in the song is presented differently from in its original song. They don't change it entirely, but I'd argue they add enough for it not to be a "rehash." What's funny is that I like the song precisely because it uses so many previous ideas. It gives the song a sort of compositional nature. Whatever that's supposed to mean.

[Tom Bombadil]

Fair enough.. I can certainly respect that opinion, I just don't happen to share it 

[TheGreatPretender]

How exactly is The Shattered Fortress not just rehashing old ideas? The first 9 minutes are straight from other 12SS songs, which is precisely why I don't like that song.

Considering that from the opening riff and the first verses in the song are all original, that statement is fairly inaccurate.

I agree that most of the song is taken from previous parts, but almost everything that returns in the song is presented differently from in its original song. They don't change it entirely, but I'd argue they add enough for it not to be a "rehash." What's funny is that I like the song precisely because it uses so many previous ideas. It gives the song a sort of compositional nature. Whatever that's supposed to mean.

All of this. It's by far my favorite of the 12SS, the use of so many different passages makes it that much more progressive, and hearing references to those earlier songs definitely adds to the experience.

[Crow]

How exactly is The Shattered Fortress not just rehashing old ideas? The first 9 minutes are straight from other 12SS songs, which is precisely why I don't like that song.

Considering that from the opening riff and the first verses in the song are all original, that statement is fairly inaccurate.

Opening riff is a reprise of the guitar lead in This Dying Soul
The first verses are a reprise of a riff in The Glass Prison

Literally everything until the second half of the guitar solo AT THE VERY END is a reprise of something. JSYK. The riff that plays under the "responsible" vocal part and a bit before it is the only section of the song not a reprise of something else.

[gmillerdrake]

Fair enough.. I can certainly respect that opinion, I just don't happen to share it 

Same here. I can see why it's popular and a lot of people like it.....it uses great parts from the other great AA Saga songs. I've said it a few times here in different threads, I just think it was a lazy, predictable way to end that 12 Step Suite. Using segments of all the other songs "makes sense" but it is/was predictable and the lazy aspect for me comes in because it's just cut and paste moments that are sloppy transitions.

  Is it 'good' music, are they still playing at a high level and does it 'sound' good? For the most part. But I'd like to have heard a more creative ending song for that AA deal.....a stand alone song.


A controversial opinion that I've mentioned in this thread that stems from the AA Saga is that had MP not began the AA saga songs he'd have bolted from DT years ago. I don't think his personality allowed him to entertain leaving while that saga remained unfinished. My opinion is completing that AA saga was the only thing holding his interest in DT and once it was completed he was 'finished'.

[TheGreatPretender]

Opening riff is a reprise of the guitar lead in This Dying Soul
The first verses are a reprise of a riff in The Glass Prison

The "Fateful ascent" part is from The Glass Prison, yes, but "Freedom calls my name" those parts are original, at least in terms of vocals, and the ambient parts really add a different flavor to it.
I could hear This Dying Soul reprisein the opening solo, but the riff didn't ring a bell at all. So to me, they did enough with it to give it an original flavor and make it sound like a lot more than just a rehash.

And I would say the same for pretty much every other part of the song, aside from maybe the riff from The Root Of All Evil, but that riff is so awesome, I'm glad they didn't do much to it.

[Rodni Demental]

I don't get why people get so upset about The Shattered Fortress reprising all those section. The keyword here is reprise. I thought it was really cool when I first heard all those references. And it's not like it is a ripoff because it was their song, and it's not like it's a rehash because this song is directly related to those other songs as a finale and even still,  it's not like there wasn't significant change. Also, being the final piece in a suite what else did you expect? They may be stand alone songs, but the purpose of this last piece was to tie up all the musical/lyrical themes from the pieces so far. If we had a completely original composition and tacked it on the end of the 12SS, people would say it had nothing to do with the other songs and it would feel out of place.

If there's any song that can get away with reprising these passages it's this one, it just makes sense to kind of collect up all the highlights just to bring context to the suite as a whole. I thought after Repentance anything could happen, but I like how the final piece re-examines the ground we've tred from a new perspective. So I don't know if that's controversial in itself, but I think The Shattered Fortress is the perfect ending to the 12SS.

[Onno]

I completely agree with you.

[Crow]

There's nothing wrong with it, I don't consider it a bad song, but on the other hand I much prefer basically every single reprised bit in the original songs over in TSF. It's suitable as an ending since the entire suite had a lot of reprising in it but it would've been more satisfying to have a song that reprised less and had more of its own original content. They do reprise stuff in interesting ways most of the time though. The reprise of the Repentance chorus (in a different time signature and with distortion instead of clean guitar, etc.) is probably my favorite bit of the song, so.

[BlobVanDam]

Some of the reprisals are very well done, and add a new twist to the section, while others just feel like they shoehorned in a section that really didn't fit, which leads to a few really awkward transitions. The "take all of me..." verse is the main example that sticks out.
And it has always bugged me that during the TGP riff reprisal that closes off the song, they put the bell sound on the wrong beat. It's supposed to be on the 8/8, not on the 1!

[Rodni Demental]

Hmm I never noticed the bell was on the beat this time. XD Maybe it was intended to be some sort of symbolic resolve as some form of concluding intentness. Or maybe that'd be reading far too much into it. 

[puppyonacid]

Yea you might be. People don't tend to over analyse round here.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yea you might be. People don't tend to over analyse round here.

Can't tell if that's a joke or not. But I certainly hope it is.

[MonagFam]

I’m not sure if it’s controversial (maybe it’s common knowledge) or if it’s inappropriate, but I’ve felt that at some point Portnoy grew to really dislike Myung (probably throw in Labrie as well, but my focus here is Myung).   

A little background – I didn’t get into DT until several years ago, and was introduced by way of listening to the albums sequentially starting with I&W.  I didn’t do much research on the band, and really just spoke a lot about what I liked/didn’t like, or why did Kevin Moore leave, what about Sherinian…that sort of thing. 

My first real glimpse into the band was the DVD that came with the Systematic Chaos CD.  I remember at the time being really bothered by a few things.  Portnoy made a big deal to say how much Rudess “rocked,” he talked about Petrucci’s lyrics, etc. etc.  Yet I don’t recall anything on Myung…and if that wasn’t enough he has a shot of him (Portnoy) laying down a bass line.  I guess that really stood out to me (and I was probably already looking to accuse him of something).

Anyway, then I’d feel like Myung was really taken out of the mix.  Then I’d read about how Portnoy would talk about difficulties writing around Myung’s lyrics, etc. 

Portnoy leaves the band, and it all feels different.  Myung seems to have a voice again – two tracks in the last two albums with his lyrics, a better mix in the audio (though I still would like to see them scale back and do less double/tripling of guitar work). 

I would love to hear any thoughts on this, or maybe if I need to be put in my place a bit.   I believe you are the experts on this and it's something I've wanted to discuss before.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

If I recall correctly, Myung had spoken about planning on writing more lyrics even before Portnoy left, so I don't think there was a direct correlation there.

[Implode]

I think their personalities always clashed, whether it was a problem at the any time or not. Way back when they first started, didn't JM and MP try living together? If I remember correctly, it didn't work out and one of them had to move out after a couple weeks.

I don't think there was ever any real negative feelings though. We never heard MP bash JM, even after the break up. He probably just respected their differences and kept disagreements quiet. The same goes for JM. If MP had any problems with JM I think we would've heard more about directly from MP like with JLB.

[MonagFam]

We never heard MP bash JM, even after the break up. He probably just respected their differences and kept disagreements quiet. The same goes for JM. If MP had any problems with JM I think we would've heard more about directly from MP like with JLB.

This is a good point and something I didn't consider.  MP comes across as pretty direct and there would likely be something quoted if he really disliked him.

[FracturedMirror]

We never heard MP bash JM, even after the break up. He probably just respected their differences and kept disagreements quiet. The same goes for JM. If MP had any problems with JM I think we would've heard more about directly from MP like with JLB.

This is a good point and something I didn't consider.  MP comes across as pretty direct and there would likely be something quoted if he really disliked him.

I think if there were problems between the two that had went on for a long time, they wouldn't have stayed together in the group for so long.  You gotta remember that MP, JP, and JM were all in the group together for what is, as far as most bands go anyway, a long time before even JLB came on board.  The core trio of the band stayed together from 1985 to 2010, so I don't think there were any significant personality clashes among them; at least not in the first couple of decades together.

[Ben_Jamin]

I don't get why people get so upset about The Shattered Fortress reprising all those section. The keyword here is reprise. I thought it was really cool when I first heard all those references. And it's not like it is a ripoff because it was their song, and it's not like it's a rehash because this song is directly related to those other songs as a finale and even still,  it's not like there wasn't significant change. Also, being the final piece in a suite what else did you expect? They may be stand alone songs, but the purpose of this last piece was to tie up all the musical/lyrical themes from the pieces so far. If we had a completely original composition and tacked it on the end of the 12SS, people would say it had nothing to do with the other songs and it would feel out of place.

If there's any song that can get away with reprising these passages it's this one, it just makes sense to kind of collect up all the highlights just to bring context to the suite as a whole. I thought after Repentance anything could happen, but I like how the final piece re-examines the ground we've tred from a new perspective. So I don't know if that's controversial in itself, but I think The Shattered Fortress is the perfect ending to the 12SS.

Thank you so much for this post. I love the reprises because I feel theu represent a feeling or emotion of whatever your using the 12 steps to overcome.

[BlobVanDam]

If I recall correctly, Myung had spoken about planning on writing more lyrics even before Portnoy left, so I don't think there was a direct correlation there.

Yep, I recall that too. Also, without MP writing lyrics, it was almost necessary for him to step up and help out, because JP is responsible for the bulk of the lyrics now.

[TheGreatPretender]

If I recall correctly, Myung had spoken about planning on writing more lyrics even before Portnoy left, so I don't think there was a direct correlation there.

Yep, I recall that too. Also, without MP writing lyrics, it was almost necessary for him to step up and help out, because JP is responsible for the bulk of the lyrics now.

And yet, JLB's lyrics are still being rejected.

[Jaffa]

If I recall correctly, Myung had spoken about planning on writing more lyrics even before Portnoy left, so I don't think there was a direct correlation there.

Yep, I recall that too. Also, without MP writing lyrics, it was almost necessary for him to step up and help out, because JP is responsible for the bulk of the lyrics now.

And yet, JLB's lyrics are still being rejected.

Source?  From what I've read, he felt that he'd written enough lyrics for his solo album that he didn't feel the need to write anything for DTDT. 

[BlobVanDam]

If I recall correctly, Myung had spoken about planning on writing more lyrics even before Portnoy left, so I don't think there was a direct correlation there.

Yep, I recall that too. Also, without MP writing lyrics, it was almost necessary for him to step up and help out, because JP is responsible for the bulk of the lyrics now.

And yet, JLB's lyrics are still being rejected.

Source?  From what I've read, he felt that he'd written enough lyrics for his solo album that he didn't feel the need to write anything for DTDT. 

I remember reading that too. Come on Jaffa, you're the search king, go and find the source to back yourself up!

[TheGreatPretender]

I may be thinking of ADTOE, but I remember reading that he wrote lyrics for 3 songs and they were rejected. Either way, my point still stands, since ADTOE only features JLB's lyrics on one song and it's the shortest one.

[BlobVanDam]

I may be thinking of ADTOE, but I remember reading that he wrote lyrics for 3 songs and they were rejected. Either way, my point still stands, since ADTOE only features JLB's lyrics on one song and it's the shortest one.

The same can also be said about ToT. It's typical for JLB to only write lyrics for one song on the album (none on BCASL), and I haven't heard about it being due to his lyrics being rejected.

[TheGreatPretender]

The same can also be said about ToT. It's typical for JLB to only write lyrics for one song on the album (none on BCASL), and I haven't heard about it being due to his lyrics being rejected.

Yeah, but my point is, if we're under the assumption that without MP, JP needs other members to pick up the slack and write more lyrics, and that is why JM is writing lyrics again, then by that logic, JP shouldn't be thankful to get 3 sets of lyrics from JLB.

I don't have the time or will power to go searching for that interview, especially since JLB did a crapton of interviews between 2011 and 2013, but I'm fairly certain I remember reading that he wrote 3 sets of lyrics, and that JP thought his lyrics were better suited. Not in a resentful way, but I do remember him mentioning something of the sort.

[Jaffa]

I am definitely not the search king.     This one turned out to be fairly easy, though.  I don't have a DTF link, but this is the interview in question.  The specific question is about halfway down, or you can CTRL+F "lyrics" and it'll bring you right to it.  In any case:

when it came to the lyrics I just said to John and the guys “you know what, I’m gonna step back, I’ll get involved in the next album, but right now I’ve written all these words for my solo album and I’m gonna step back” that’s just where I wanted to be. I’ve written all my words for “Impermanent Resonance”, Matt (Guillory) and I we split the lyrical writing but I just felt I’ve expressed myself enough as it is and everyone was cool, they wanted me to write like John “you got to write a couple man!” I was like “no, I think you should do it”

Now, in fairness to your point, TGP, I actually do remember reading what you're talking about, too.  But I'm pretty sure that was for ADTOE.  On DTDT, JLB seems pretty clear that it was his choice not to write anything. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Now, in fairness to your point, TGP, I actually do remember reading what you're talking about, too.  But I'm pretty sure that was for ADTOE.  On DTDT, JLB seems pretty clear that it was his choice not to write anything.

Right. Sorry, I didn't mean to insinuate that JLB's lyrics were rejected from DT12, I was just saying since MP left in general, since we are talking about picking up the slack of MP's lyrics.

[emtee]

Here's mine.

My gut instinct (which correctly predicted major trouble within DT when MP made public comments about JLB) is sensing that JR is
not feeling 'driven' or 'fulfilled' within DT and that it won't be long before he moves along. I think the $$ is very good and provides
a good quality of life, but the type of music DT is creating is not meshing with the type of music he is passionate about. I see one
tour, maybe 2 and depending on what the next studio album turns out to be...that DT13 may be his last.

[ReaperKK]

If I recall correctly, Myung had spoken about planning on writing more lyrics even before Portnoy left, so I don't think there was a direct correlation there.

Yep, I recall that too. Also, without MP writing lyrics, it was almost necessary for him to step up and help out, because JP is responsible for the bulk of the lyrics now.

And yet, JLB's lyrics are still being rejected.

Source?  From what I've read, he felt that he'd written enough lyrics for his solo album that he didn't feel the need to write anything for DTDT. 

Thank god JLB doesn't write many lyrics. DT has never really been consistent in the lyric department but JLB lyrics make me cringe, his solo albums suffer because of the lyrical content IMO.

[MonagFam]

but the type of music DT is creating is not meshing with the type of music he is passionate about. I see one
tour, maybe 2 and depending on what the next studio album turns out to be...that DT13 may be his last.

Interesting.  What do you see as the type of music he's passionate about.  I know that I've tried a solo album or two, and haven't gotten into that quite as much

[Sacul]

Controversial opinions? Ok, here we go:

Octavarium<Illumination Theory
I&W<<<Awake
KM=DS=JR
Mike=Mike

[Lucidity]

Thought of the day-- A Nightmare to Remember kicks Illumination Theory's ass.

[jakepriest]

Thought of the day-- A Nightmare to Remember kicks Illumination Theory's ass.

They are equally bad in my eyes.