Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[wolfking]

I always could never really get past the Muse Stockholm Syndrome similarities.

[Zook]

When it comes to listening to full albums, I don't mind when Never Enough comes on, but can't wait for Prophets of War to end. Sure I could skip it, but I don't like skipping songs if I'm listening to the full album. If it came on shuffle, I'd definitely skip it, but I remedied that by deleting it from my phone.

[wolfking]

When it comes to listenign to full albums, I don't mind when Never Enough comes on, but can't wait for Prophets of War to end. Sure I could skip it, but I don't like skipping songs if I'm listening to the full album. If it came on shuffle, I'd definitely skip it, but I remedied that by deleting it from my phone.

I'm exactly the same way.  I almost feel guilty if I think about skipping a song when I intended to listen to the whole album.  Glad I'm not the only one who does this, I always thought it might have been a bit odd.

[TheGreatPretender]

Depends what is less silly, judging bands based on opinions or no...based on opinions, any band can be the best, even One Direction. I rather judge based on things like influency, consistency and many other things. Of course you can have your favorite bands, but they're being along the greatest only because it's one of your favorites it's another thing.

EDIT: Also, the greatest bands club thing, i'm talking something like TOP 50 or 100 bands, not 1000 or 2000.

So you're talking about sales, then. In which respect there is no such thing as the greatest band, there's only such thing as "most successful" or "most marketable."

If Led Zeppelin were a new band that came out in this day and age, they wouldn't sell crap because the hey day of Rock'n'Roll is over, and that's pretty much why DT isn't a big worldwide sensation, the world is more interested in other kinds of music, other types of sounds. But that doesn't make what they do any less great. And in terms of sheer musicianship, DT could blow any of those all time top selling rock bands out of the water. So, really, skill is the only tangible value that you could actually compare the bands by. And I'm not saying that makes DT's music BETTER, (although that, combined with many other elements, in my opinion, does make them better) but just the same, influence and sales don't make a band better either. So who's to say that DT doesn't belong up there with the all time greats like Zepplin? Especially considering that the term "underrated" exists for a reason, and as far as worldwide influence goes, DT is a very underrated band.

[nightmare_cinema]

Some woman out there seems to REALLY enjoy Never Enough.

I love Prophets of War, Never Enough, Along for the Ride, Forsaken, I Walk Beside You... all are awesome songs. Forsaken and I Walk Beside You to me have always been examples of how Dream Theater can write simple, formulaic, straightforward songs entirely in 4/4 and still make them amazing. They'll never be up there with ACOS or 8VM or TCOT in terms of how much I love them, but I love them all the same! For me it'd be like saying that I really don't enjoy Blackfield just because I'm obsessed with Voyage 34 or The Sky Moves Sideways. I really enjoy the tracks where they rein themselves in a little and stick to a tight schedule, they're never going to be my favourites in any list but I still think they're awesome. And there are several DT tracks I think are wank and don't like at all so it's not like I'm just fangirling over everything.

I dislike most of DT12 and find a lot of it rather bland, but BC&SL/ADToE/SC are all freakin' awesome albums.

My controversial opinion: Awake, while being a fantastic album, comes under most other Dream Theater albums for me.

DT12 is my second to least favourite, above WDADU. So far.

Non-controversial opinion: Scenes is, and always will be, the greatest album in existence.

[Prog Snob]

I just don't like Never Enough's lyrical premise. Save it for the autobiography.  And like some others said, the Muse resemblance is distracting.

[425]

Depends what is less silly, judging bands based on opinions or no...based on opinions, any band can be the best, even One Direction. I rather judge based on things like influency, consistency and many other things. Of course you can have your favorite bands, but they're being along the greatest only because it's one of your favorites it's another thing.

EDIT: Also, the greatest bands club thing, i'm talking something like TOP 50 or 100 bands, not 1000 or 2000.

Sure, someone can THINK that the best band ever is One Direction. In fact, I know people who do. Now, that opinion can be more or less justified (in this case, less, in the case of, say, Pink Floyd, more), but it's still an opinion.

You seem to be out to create a standard for greatest band of all time that will eventually lead to a conclusion that everyone can agree on. The only way to do that, since no one has devised a method to evaluate the quality of music objectively, would be to use either sales or some formula involving the sales of bands they've influenced.

I think we should use the word "greatest" to refer to something closer to the actual meaning of the word "great." Even if it means we can't state definitively that one band is the greatest.

Note: I think that my method doesn't eliminate the distinction between favorite band and great band. I might consider a band to be a great band judging on the quality of their musicianship and songwriting, but I may not personally care too much for it. For me, Zep could be a limited example of the former (I think they're overrated, but still a good band. However, I don't enjoy them very much aside from a few songs). Similarly, I might recognize the mediocrity of a band's musicianship or songwriting but there could be something about that them that makes them one of my favorites, even if I don't consider them to be that great (I really like Steve Harris's solo band though they really aren't that fantastic of a band).

A good metric for greatest band could be what I suggested: musicianship and songwriting, perhaps measured over a period of time (to determine consistency). I think DT is the greatest band in all these respects. They have an exceedingly high level of musicianship as well as superb songwriting, and DT12 is every bit as excellent in these respects as Awake. All of these traits, they have more of than any other band of which I know. That's why I think they're the greatest band ever.

[nightmare_cinema]

Yeah it does come across a little martyrdom-like. Stockholm Syndrome has been one of my favourite songs since I was about 15 so the flavour is quite welcome to me

[nightmare_cinema]

A good metric for greatest band could be what I suggested: musicianship and songwriting, perhaps measured over a period of time (to determine consistency). I think DT is the greatest band in all these respects. They have an exceedingly high level of musicianship as well as superb songwriting, and DT12 is every bit as excellent in these respects as Awake. All of these traits, they have more of than any other band of which I know. That's why I think they're the greatest band ever.

Surely musicianship and songwriting is just as impossible to quantify, though? I mean even musicianship, most people would agree Petrucci for example is a virtuoso at his instrument, but plenty would also argue he overuses vibrato to a distracting level, he places too much emphasis on technical prowess over feels, whatever (neither of which I personally think). And as for songwriting, again it's impossible to objectively assess. Unless you're just talking about your own personal method of assessing which band is, for you, the greatest. Which seems a more likely premise. In which case, ignore me, it's late, I'm tired. DT became the greatest band in my world the minute Stream of Consciousness clicked nine years ago and all I can really go by is how their music makes me feel. Nothing ('xcept Wilson) has ever come close since <3

[Prog Snob]

Yeah it does come across a little martyrdom-like. Stockholm Syndrome has been one of my favourite songs since I was about 15 so the flavour is quite welcome to me

I really have no issue with Muse. I've never really listened to them enough to give them a fair judgement. I just don't think that JLB has any business trying to sound like him.

[nightmare_cinema]

Oh, you mean you think his vocals are too like (or trying to be like) Matt Bellamy's? I always felt the comparison was drawn from the music itself, not the vocals.

[Zook]

I'm sure the Bellamy vocals were all MP's idea, and I'm sure, just like with Forsaken, JLB had a better melody or singing style originally.

[Prog Snob]

Oh, you mean you think his vocals are too like (or trying to be like) Matt Bellamy's? I always felt the comparison was drawn from the music itself, not the vocals.

When I first heard Never Enough, people were making a lot of comparisons to Muse.  I had never heard a Muse song before so I gave that track a listen.  I felt like it was as similar to his vocal style as it could be without being blatantly obvious.  Not just the tone of his voice but the vocal melodies themselves. 

I'm sure the Bellamy vocals were all MP's idea, and I'm sure, just like with Forsaken, JLB had a better melody or singing style originally.

I don't doubt that it was MP's idea.  We know for a fact he is a big Muse fan, though I am not sure if JLB is/was.

[nightmare_cinema]

I really (and I'm not trying to be obtuse) don't understand what it is about JLB's vocals on Never Enough that cause people to say he sounds like he's trying to emulate Bellamy. I've been a huge fan of Muse for 11 years and Dream Theater for 9 and I don't know what JLB is doing that people think is so much like Bellamy...? I can certainly imagine Bellamy singing it, but it's not like his style is completely unique with no similar vocalists out there. Anyone able to enlighten me?

[nightmare_cinema]

I feel certain that those people were almost definitely referring specifically to Stockholm Syndrome rather than Bellamy's voice as a whole... listen to the opening (instrumental) few bars of Stockholm Syndrome and then Never Enough right next to each other, they're so blatantly similar I just figured that was where the comparison came from.

[Zook]

I really (and I'm not trying to be obtuse) don't understand what it is about JLB's vocals on Never Enough that cause people to say he sounds like he's trying to emulate Bellamy. I've been a huge fan of Muse for 11 years and Dream Theater for 9 and I don't know what JLB is doing that people think is so much like Bellamy...? I can certainly imagine Bellamy singing it, but it's not like his style is completely unique with no similar vocalists out there. Anyone able to enlighten me?

I haven't heard many Muse songs (thankfully) but that whole breathing deeply thing is something that the Muse guy does, and something that wasn't needed in Never Enough other than for MP to let everyone know how much he likes Muse.

[nightmare_cinema]

Awwww yeah, this has just made me listen to Stockholm Syndrome properly for the first time in a few months, I remember the first time I ever heard this track on Kerrang TV and everything, and nearly crying with awe as an overwhelmed and obsessed 14 year old, gooooood memories! <3

[Prog Snob]

I really (and I'm not trying to be obtuse) don't understand what it is about JLB's vocals on Never Enough that cause people to say he sounds like he's trying to emulate Bellamy. I've been a huge fan of Muse for 11 years and Dream Theater for 9 and I don't know what JLB is doing that people think is so much like Bellamy...? I can certainly imagine Bellamy singing it, but it's not like his style is completely unique with no similar vocalists out there. Anyone able to enlighten me?

The vocals on the song are completely unlike anything else JLB has sang before and since, so people started to draw a comparison to something/someone. Like I said above I didn't know who Muse was until I heard the comparisons.  I picked up it immediately.  Maybe saying the styles sound identical is a bit drastic, but the influence is certainly there.

[nightmare_cinema]

I just listened to Never Enough, and noticed the breathing, good point. I never even noticed that. With Muse it's one of those awful things, once you hear it and start to focus on it you can't hear anything else but Bellamy frantically gasping for breath every couple of bars, it's rather offputting.

[TheGreatPretender]

Surely musicianship and songwriting is just as impossible to quantify, though? I mean even musicianship, most people would agree Petrucci for example is a virtuoso at his instrument, but plenty would also argue he overuses vibrato to a distracting level, he places too much emphasis on technical prowess over feels, whatever (neither of which I personally think).

Anyone who says JP puts too much emphasis on technicality over emotion has clearly never heard The Spirit Carries on or Through Her Eyes. To name a few of many.

[nightmare_cinema]

Yeah it's normally people who really, really hate progressive metal as a whole that I've heard say things like that. One response: Lines in the Sand.

[Prog Snob]

Yeah it's normally people who really, really hate progressive metal as a whole that I've heard say things like that. One response: Lines in the Sand.

Great response.   

There are many others.  Most people just associate the name Dream Theater with a specific style so judging the book by it's cover becomes their logic. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah it's normally people who really, really hate progressive metal as a whole that I've heard say things like that. One response: Lines in the Sand.

Well, people with that kind of negativity aren't being objective anyway, so as far as I'm concerned, their opinions hold much less of a value as a result. If I really hate a band or a type of music, I can't honestly say that I'm listening to it with the most open of minds, because I don't really want to hear it. But as a result, when discussing such a band or music, I wouldn't make it my business to comment on something like that anyway, if I don't understand it, or am not extensively familiar with it.

[Outcrier]

I can see what you mean when it comes to influence -- bands like The Beatles and Led Zeppelin have influenced probably hundreds of millions of people, and in that respect, that's an accomplishment. However, I still don't personally think they're great because even though they have influenced many, they don't influence me. I don't see why one's opinion of something is silly if it is based solely on the person's tastes -- that's exactly what an opinion is!

This is it, even if you personally don't think they're great, you are aware of what they did and you can respect them, isn't?

[425]

Surely musicianship and songwriting is just as impossible to quantify, though? I mean even musicianship, most people would agree Petrucci for example is a virtuoso at his instrument, but plenty would also argue he overuses vibrato to a distracting level, he places too much emphasis on technical prowess over feels, whatever (neither of which I personally think). And as for songwriting, again it's impossible to objectively assess. Unless you're just talking about your own personal method of assessing which band is, for you, the greatest. Which seems a more likely premise. In which case, ignore me, it's late, I'm tired. DT became the greatest band in my world the minute Stream of Consciousness clicked nine years ago and all I can really go by is how their music makes me feel. Nothing ('xcept Wilson) has ever come close since <3

Sure it is. You're completely right. As you suggested later in your post, what I was positing there was my own personal method for determining my own opinion about a band's greatness. I think that it is not possible, within the current context of human understanding of music, to objectively state the superiority of one band, style or piece over another. I'm not willing to say that it will be for all of time impossible to do so, but right now, it is. Aesthetic judgements in the realm of music are, at this time, up to every individual to make for himself.

[WheyWaffles]

Controversial opinion: I'd rather watch/listen to JP sing off-key (like in the old days) than lip-sync virtually everything.

I feel like I'm watching a fucking Megadeth DVD trying to enjoy Luna Park here.  Every time they show him with his exaggerated facial expressions suggestive of "I'm really singing guys, honest" it breaks my immersion and makes me want to just watch Enchant's Live At Last instead.  Aside from varied setlists, this is the only reason I ever find myself missing MP.  It may not matter as much to most fans, but this hugely affects the live experience for me to the point where I doubt I'll watch Luna Park again.

[Zook]

A lot of bands have the other mics too low in the mix when playing live. JP probably is singing along, you just can't hear him.

[WheyWaffles]

A lot of bands have the other mics too low in the mix when playing live. JP probably is singing along, you just can't hear him.

I think that was probably a decision made while mixing the DVD/BD.  It's not as though JP's vocals got lost somewhere between his mic and the soundboard.  Having him audible on the DVD/BD was an option.  I wish they'd opted for it to the detriment of "perfection."

[Zook]

A lot of bands have the other mics too low in the mix when playing live. JP probably is singing along, you just can't hear him.

I think that was probably a decision made while mixing the DVD/BD.  It's not as though JP's vocals got lost somewhere between his mic and the soundboard.  Having him audible on the DVD/BD was an option.  I wish they'd opted for it to the detriment of "perfection."

I'm sure he knows he can't sing. The Wither demo is full of noticeable auto tune, and there's the Spirit Carries On demo.

[BlobVanDam]

Along for the Ride, to me, is in the same boat as These Walls and The Answer Lies Within: songs that aren't bad by any means and are enjoyable enough in the context of their respective albums, but very little about any of them is particularly memorable or noteworthy.

These Walls would make my DT Top 10.

It would easily make my top 20. Amazing song, and it rivals Octavarium for me, although it's like comparing apples to oranges, because both succeed at different ends of the scale. It shouldn't get lumped with AFTR or TALW, because it's worlds ahead of both of them.

[Kotowboy]

It would easily make my top 20. Amazing song, and it rivals Octavarium for me, although it's like comparing apples to oranges, because both succeed at different ends of the scale. It shouldn't get lumped with AFTR or TALW, because it's worlds ahead of both of them.

I love These Walls & The Answer Lies Within but I don't really like Along For The Ride.

I think that Along For The Ride is the only song on the album were the lumpy sounding snare is a big issue. I can deal with it on all the other songs.

[Tom Bombadil]

Rather fitting for this thread, but I think Along for the Ride is much better than These Walls and TALW.

[Lucien]

Along for the Ride, to me, is in the same boat as These Walls and The Answer Lies Within: songs that aren't bad by any means and are enjoyable enough in the context of their respective albums, but very little about any of them is particularly memorable or noteworthy.

These Walls would make my DT Top 10.

These Walls is my #1 

[FlyingBIZKIT]

These Walls has never really clicked for me

[Kotowboy]

These Walls is my #1 

These Walls has never really clicked for me