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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: nikatapi on August 25, 2023, 05:02:59 AM
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Good to see James at least being open about his struggle with the old material, which is understandable given his age and natural decline of the human voice.
"Well, anything off Images and Words is mildly unpleasant because I can't sing like that anymore," LaBrie says of the material on Dream Theater's 1992 breakout LP. "I can't sing in the stratosphere. [Those songs are from] 30 years ago.
"I'll alter the melodies to fit into what my voice is these days, but I still love those songs. But for me to do 'Another Day' and sing that whole last verse and chorus, it's like, yeah right!
"Any of the songs that I find extremely challenging would be from before I ruptured my vocal cords, anything that was [recorded] before December 30th, 1994. Before I did that, I was able to sing up in those higher registers, and it was nothing for me. It was effortless.
"But I still do fondly look at those songs from those albums. But I'd say that it's more about the beauty of singing songs from any era... because I'll just alter the melodies to make it work and still enjoy the vibe and still enjoy what the song represents to us, and to the fans."
https://www.revolvermag.com/music/dream-theaters-james-labrie-my-least-favorite-songs-play-live
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The other factor is that they didn't know how to write vocal melodies back on the first two albums. I mean, they wrote vocal melodies that sound really cool as far as note choices and how those blend with the music. But there are plenty that are written poorly from the standpoint of NOT being conducive to actually being able to replicate them well in a live setting where you can't just sing line by line, either because they stay too long in too high and narrow a register, or they lack breath space, or what have you. OAMAT, Another Day, and Take the Time are poster children for that. It's all well and good when your singer is in his 20s and feels immortal. But it's just not sustainable, even for the most impressive of vocalists.
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The other factor is that they didn't know how to write vocal melodies back on the first two albums. I mean, they wrote vocal melodies that sound really cool as far as note choices and how those blend with the music. But there are plenty that are written poorly from the standpoint of NOT being conducive to actually being able to replicate them well in a live setting where you can't just sing line by line, either because they stay too long in too high and narrow a register, or they lack breath space, or what have you. OAMAT, Another Day, and Take the Time are poster children for that. It's all well and good when your singer is in his 20s and feels immortal. But it's just not sustainable, even for the most impressive of vocalists.
Very true. Especially on Images the vocal lines are unrealistic when considering a live performance.
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I'm happy it was being discussed at least, but whatever fix the band does, they need to do a better job than the last couple of legs. It is going to have to be addressed.
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i'm just happy that Octavarium was on his list of favorites to sing.
but, i'm only going to see that show if he can perform it. i'll wait for some videos first before buying a ticket.
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I'm happy it was being discussed at least, but whatever fix the band does, they need to do a better job than the last couple of legs. It is going to have to be addressed.
I agree. It's good they are finally addressing it, but the changes need to be more radical and extensive IMO on a whole.
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What I found more insightful than his admitting he can't sing I&W the same way he used to in his 20s - we all agree on that probably - is that he said he is changing the melodies to suit what he can sing. This is something people have brought up on other threads and I feel like it's always brought up as a negative thing-- on that is contributing to the live struggles. But here he is saying he is altering the notes to what he feels he can accomplish.
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The other factor is that they didn't know how to write vocal melodies back on the first two albums. I mean, they wrote vocal melodies that sound really cool as far as note choices and how those blend with the music. But there are plenty that are written poorly from the standpoint of NOT being conducive to actually being able to replicate them well in a live setting where you can't just sing line by line, either because they stay too long in too high and narrow a register, or they lack breath space, or what have you. OAMAT, Another Day, and Take the Time are poster children for that. It's all well and good when your singer is in his 20s and feels immortal. But it's just not sustainable, even for the most impressive of vocalists.
Very true. Especially on Images the vocal lines are unrealistic when considering a live performance.
That also easily extends to Awake as well with some melodies in IF and Voices just being brutal to perform live.
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What I found more insightful than his admitting he can't sing I&W the same way he used to in his 20s - we all agree on that probably - is that he said he is changing the melodies to suit what he can sing. This is something people have brought up on other threads and I feel like it's always brought up as a negative thing-- on that is contributing to the live struggles. But here he is saying he is altering the notes to what he feels he can accomplish.
I didn't experience that the two times I saw them on these last two legs. I'm thinking that maybe we can't wing this as we go, depending on the night. Settle in and agree on a new melody and stick with it. It feels like he's not sure of the melody until he actually sings it.
And the different melody doesn't explain the pitchiness.
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Good to see James at least being open about his struggle with the old material, which is understandable given his age and natural decline of the human voice.
"Well, anything off Images and Words is mildly unpleasant because I can't sing like that anymore," LaBrie says of the material on Dream Theater's 1992 breakout LP. "I can't sing in the stratosphere. [Those songs are from] 30 years ago.
"I'll alter the melodies to fit into what my voice is these days, but I still love those songs. But for me to do 'Another Day' and sing that whole last verse and chorus, it's like, yeah right!
"Any of the songs that I find extremely challenging would be from before I ruptured my vocal cords, anything that was [recorded] before December 30th, 1994. Before I did that, I was able to sing up in those higher registers, and it was nothing for me. It was effortless.
"But I still do fondly look at those songs from those albums. But I'd say that it's more about the beauty of singing songs from any era... because I'll just alter the melodies to make it work and still enjoy the vibe and still enjoy what the song represents to us, and to the fans."
https://www.revolvermag.com/music/dream-theaters-james-labrie-my-least-favorite-songs-play-live
Well, if this isn't a straight answer to all those
who were thinking it was a matter of ego, I don't know what is.
He freely admits there's a problem, and is publicly stating his plans to adjust for it.
I would think there is a lot of pressure on him from both sides, from the fans who expect him to deliver and also from within the band/management (I don't know which) who are requiring him to still be able to sell those songs from the pre-injury era.
He also freely admits that his injury ended some of his ability in the top range. Many injuries end careers. It happens all the time in sports (where the comparison is apt as singing is an athletic event), and so often with singers. Look at Julie Andrews. There are many others whom we don't hear about, because maybe they weren't as famous or they just gave up. James didn't. He could still sing, even though not quite the same, but he didn't give up. He kept on going, doing what he was born to do. And he does so to this day. There's no arguing with his tenacity in the face of adversity, and I admire him for it.
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There are over 200 official songs Dream Theater has brought out since 1989. I really don't know why they choose songs that are obvious out of LaBrie's range these days and then torture them until it fits in, in the vocal range of LaBrie. So many songs aren't that high (or vocal-fast)... why can't they infiltrate them in the setlist?
I've seen it happen quite a few times, that he sang another line than (then?) the original and it's always a compromise... never a win-win or something that comes close to a win-win situation. I'm totally ok with that some songs aren't able to perform anymore, due to the vocals, but really do not understand the torturing until it fits. It's not like they run out of songs.
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There are over 200 official songs Dream Theater has brought out since 1989. I really don't know why they choose songs that are obvious out of LaBrie's range these days and then torture them until it fits in, in the vocal range of LaBrie. So many songs aren't that high (or vocal-fast)... why can't they infiltrate them in the setlist?
Agreeing, there are many songs that are in a medium-high range and with soaring, lyrical melodies that would show him at his best.
Those songs need to come out of hiding.
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With all due respect to LaBrie, unfortunetly the real problem is that his overall live performances in most of DT songs, including the most recent albums, haven't been good. And this problem wasn't addressed in that interview.
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There are over 200 official songs Dream Theater has brought out since 1989. I really don't know why they choose songs that are obvious out of LaBrie's range these days and then torture them until it fits in, in the vocal range of LaBrie. So many songs aren't that high (or vocal-fast)... why can't they infiltrate them in the setlist?
I'd guess the band feels those songs are the ones fans want to see? But I agree, play the stuff he can be his best at singing. I'm open to seeing the rest of those songs live. I know PMU is their hit and they are going to play it, but there's soooo many other songs I'd be happy to see them play that he can probably perform significantly better on.
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There are over 200 official songs Dream Theater has brought out since 1989. I really don't know why they choose songs that are obvious out of LaBrie's range these days and then torture them until it fits in, in the vocal range of LaBrie. So many songs aren't that high (or vocal-fast)... why can't they infiltrate them in the setlist?
I'd guess the band feels those songs are the ones fans want to see? But I agree, play the stuff he can be his best at singing. I'm open to seeing the rest of those songs live. I know PMU is their hit and they are going to play it, but there's soooo many other songs I'd be happy to see them play that he can probably perform significantly better on.
Agreed. Outside of this message board, the fan favorites are the ones that are hardest for him to sing.
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With all due respect to LaBrie, unfortunetly the real problem is that his overall live performances in most of DT songs, including the most recent albums, haven't been good. And this problem wasn't addressed in that interview.
Right... I noticed on tour that it wasn't just the high notes. Some of the pitchiest sounding performances to me seemed to be newer stuff.
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With all due respect to LaBrie, unfortunetly the real problem is that his overall live performances in most of DT songs, including the most recent albums, haven't been good. And this problem wasn't addressed in that interview.
Right... I noticed on tour that it wasn't just the high notes. Some of the pitchiest sounding performances to me seemed to be newer stuff.
Look, I don't want to sound like that guy bagging on James; he's the reason I got into DT in the first place, and he's still a unique and special singer, so I have no real complaints (I listen to bands whose singers have not aged NEARLY as well). But if we're going to acknowledge a change in circumstance, and we're going to try to mitigate that change in circumstance, we ought to at least be HONEST about what that circumstance is. The two times I saw him on this cycle, the noticeable problem to me WASN'T the high notes. The problem for me was that in the middle of the song his pitch would seem to vary pretty noticeably. I feel like that's an eminently fixable problem, but to fix a problem you have to acknowledge it.
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Yeah, the Images/Awake material is the most challenging for the high pitched stuff, but he has been struggling with the recent material A LOT. Not to keep beating on a dead horse, but losing his range isn't the same thing as not being able to sing in tune. The former is expected with age/injuries/whatever, but the latter is a much bigger issue and there's no real excuse for a world touring, professional singer to not do it.
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And how do we know that he is not addressing issues of pitch? Just because the scope of the interview, based on the interviewer's questions or what he is allowed to come out and say by band management to whatever other factors affected what he said or didn't say, did not include the pitch issue, that's a lousy excuse to call him out on being dishonest or essentially lying by omission. That's pretty harsh when we don't know all the facts.
He publicly mentioned that he has a problem and is working on it. This is a step in the right direction.
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And how do we know that he is not addressing issues of pitch? Just because the scope of the interview, based on the interviewer's questions or what he is allowed to come out and say by band management to whatever other factors affected what he said or didn't say, did not include the pitch issue, that's a lousy excuse to call him out on being dishonest or essentially lying by omission. That's pretty harsh when we don't know all the facts.
He publicly mentioned that he has a problem and is working on it. This is a step in the right direction.
Not sure if directed at me or not, but that's not what I was implying at all.
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Not sure if directed at me or not, but that's not what I was implying at all.
Not directed at you at all. It was a general response to the overall tone I was seeing in the thread.
It's only the first (that I know of) public declaration of a problem, and something like this takes guts, but it also takes team approval before the fact. For example, remember Olympic gymnast Simone Biles? She was having problems with balance. Unheard of and uncharacteristic for a gymnast at her level, right? But then it came out that she was having, and working on, balance issues. It didn't come out until later on that she was also working through some other issues that were affecting her performance at the same time.
These things are discussed among teams and with management long before they publicly come out. An omission of the full scope of the issue(s) should not be assumed to be a wilful concealment of all that is going on, but the agreed-upon extent that is allowed to be revealed by the entire team at large at the present time.
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I know PMU is their hit and they are going to play it, but there's soooo many other songs I'd be happy to see them play that he can probably perform significantly better on.
As a perfect example, The Ministry of Lost Souls lost tour. To me their best performance I've ever seen live, even LaBrie nailed it spot-on. Not the highest high's, not Images-or-Awakish, but perfectly fits his nowadays voice and the song is so beautiful. And there are many, many more.
I hope they re-find themselves with song that are still within LaBrie's range, and we've not seen a thousand times before (like Scenes from a Memory).
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range is not what people are complaining about. That's perfectly fixed with the melodychanges and downtuning like on PMU.
it's not being on pitch within his range that's been bugging fans last 2 tours.
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The other factor is that they didn't know how to write vocal melodies back on the first two albums. I mean, they wrote vocal melodies that sound really cool as far as note choices and how those blend with the music. But there are plenty that are written poorly from the standpoint of NOT being conducive to actually being able to replicate them well in a live setting where you can't just sing line by line, either because they stay too long in too high and narrow a register, or they lack breath space, or what have you. OAMAT, Another Day, and Take the Time are poster children for that. It's all well and good when your singer is in his 20s and feels immortal. But it's just not sustainable, even for the most impressive of vocalists.
Beat me to it. Those songs on Images and Words are phenomenal, but not at all conducive to a singer. Yes, a person can sing them. But singing them for 150 nights a year? Pass. No way. Well said all around bosk.
And very pleased JLB just came out and said that. The fact he sings them anyway is a testament to him. He could very well say no. So a big thanks to James for being honest, and still giving it his all. The human voice is unlike any other instrument. It changes continually, and doesn't change the same way for people.
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range is not what people are complaining about. That's perfectly fixed with the melodychanges and downtuning like on PMU.
it's not being on pitch within his range that's been bugging fans last 2 tours.
I also think that's what at least 85% of us are talking albout. I hope, like crystalstars17 said, that that interview was a way they found to let the fans know, politely, that they are aware of the vocals problems live and are working on it. Although, personally, it felt more like LaBrie was belittling the issue, shifting the focus from what it really is. I don't think he was being dishonest (I always enjoy his interviews, always a nice, down-to-earth guy), but maybe it's very difficult for him to talk about it openly, to the fullest extent (by the way, I don't think he or DT have any obligation to make it public). I hope that JLB manages to give a better live performance, considering his age, modifying the melodies when necessary. I really would like to see him as DT vocalist until the end of the band. And I still like a lot his studio performances, being The Astonishing my favorite performance in any album that he ever recorded. :hefdaddy
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With all due respect to LaBrie, unfortunetly the real problem is that his overall live performances in most of DT songs, including the most recent albums, haven't been good. And this problem wasn't addressed in that interview.
This.
Everyone understands about the 1992-1994 stuff. It doesn't address the fact that everything else is also an issue.
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And how do we know that he is not addressing issues of pitch? Just because the scope of the interview, based on the interviewer's questions or what he is allowed to come out and say by band management to whatever other factors affected what he said or didn't say, did not include the pitch issue, that's a lousy excuse to call him out on being dishonest or essentially lying by omission. That's pretty harsh when we don't know all the facts.
He publicly mentioned that he has a problem and is working on it. This is a step in the right direction.
All will become clear on the next tour. If we get to the DT16 tour and he still is having the exact same issues he had on View and DreamSonic, then we have an unmitigated problem.
EDIT: to clarify, I am not even thinking about I&W stuff. On the last two tours they opened each night with the Alien and that was all over the place. That's the sort of thing I believe fans will not be as forgiving about because he just wrote that.
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I utterly LOVE DT and JLB. The night my two sons and I stalked the tour bus and got to meet and talk with everyone in the band, JLB sat and talked with us for a solid 15 minutes….just us three and him. He was and is such a nice guy and genuinely ‘care’ (or seemed to at least) about the conversation we were having. It was something I’ll never forget.
He ‘was’ an incredible singer for a very long time. He IS the voice of DT. But the sad truth is he simply can’t do it live anymore. It’s sad, it’s heartbreaking….but the tone/pitch issues and the changing of the influx on phrasing of the vocals…..it’s just too much at this point. The efforts to hide it and adjust to his age make it even more glaring.
I will continue to go to every DT concert I can because as I said…..I utterly love the band. I’ll cheer and take home great memories from the concerts…..but the hey day of DT is long in the past.
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I will continue to go to every DT concert I can because as I said…..I utterly love the band. I’ll cheer and take home great memories from the concerts…..but the hey day of DT is long in the past.
This really depends on what you consider the "heyday"! If you're an early 90's, I&W/Awake-era purist, then yeah maybe that's a valid opinion for you. But why look at it in such bleak, all-or-nothing terms?
I think we're looking at here is a new era. And it wouldn't be the first new era for this band. Why not see the present day as a new beginning? Sure, it won't sound like Awake. But if every album sounded the same, we'd get bored. If they never had moved on from that same old formula, amazing as it was, then we wouldn't have all the other flavors of amazing. We wouldn't have Black Clouds and Silver Linings. We wouldn't have Octavarium. Or even Scenes From A Memory.
So now we are in the era of View and Astonishing. This is a fine thing. If this is where the band's creativity is heading, and what James is capable of singing now, then I'm here for it. 🥂
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I will continue to go to every DT concert I can because as I said…..I utterly love the band. I’ll cheer and take home great memories from the concerts…..but the hey day of DT is long in the past.
This really depends on what you consider the "heyday"! If you're an early 90's, I&W/Awake-era purist, then yeah maybe that's a valid opinion for you. But why look at it in such bleak, all-or-nothing terms?
I think we're looking at here is a new era. And it wouldn't be the first new era for this band. Why not see the present day as a new beginning? Sure, it won't sound like Awake. But if every album sounded the same, we'd get bored. If they never had moved on from that same old formula, amazing as it was, then we wouldn't have all the other flavors of amazing. We wouldn't have Black Clouds and Silver Linings. We wouldn't have Octavarium. Or even Scenes From A Memory.
So now we are in the era of View and Astonishing. This is a fine thing. If this is where the band's creativity is heading, and what James is capable of singing now, then I'm here for it. 🥂
I am on the same page as you. Of course there are some contexts in life where you shouldn't accept anything less than the best, and hold yourselves and others to the highest standard, but if you do that all the time, you'll probably just bum yourself out. :lol
When it comes to Dream Theater, my personal approach is more along the lines of, "I am so happy to have this band in my life and so thankful that they are still making awesome music almost 40 years in. That is an exceedingly rare thing these days." Do I think that the band's best period is behind them and we're probably never getting anything on par with the "Big Four" ever again? Yes. Do I worry about it? Nope!
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I will continue to go to every DT concert I can because as I said…..I utterly love the band. I’ll cheer and take home great memories from the concerts…..but the hey day of DT is long in the past.
This really depends on what you consider the "heyday"! If you're an early 90's, I&W/Awake-era purist, then yeah maybe that's a valid opinion for you. But why look at it in such bleak, all-or-nothing terms?
I think we're looking at here is a new era. And it wouldn't be the first new era for this band. Why not see the present day as a new beginning? Sure, it won't sound like Awake. But if every album sounded the same, we'd get bored. If they never had moved on from that same old formula, amazing as it was, then we wouldn't have all the other flavors of amazing. We wouldn't have Black Clouds and Silver Linings. We wouldn't have Octavarium. Or even Scenes From A Memory.
So now we are in the era of View and Astonishing. This is a fine thing. If this is where the band's creativity is heading, and what James is capable of singing now, then I'm here for it. 🥂
I am on the same page as you. Of course there are some contexts in life where you shouldn't accept anything less than the best, and hold yourselves and others to the highest standard, but if you do that all the time, you'll probably just bum yourself out. :lol
When it comes to Dream Theater, my personal approach is more along the lines of, "I am so happy to have this band in my life and so thankful that they are still making awesome music almost 40 years in. That is an exceedingly rare thing these days." Do I think that the band's best period is behind them and we're probably never getting anything on par with the "Big Four" ever again? Yes. Do I worry about it? Nope!
All of this.
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I will continue to go to every DT concert I can because as I said…..I utterly love the band. I’ll cheer and take home great memories from the concerts…..but the hey day of DT is long in the past.
This really depends on what you consider the "heyday"! If you're an early 90's, I&W/Awake-era purist, then yeah maybe that's a valid opinion for you. But why look at it in such bleak, all-or-nothing terms?
I think we're looking at here is a new era. And it wouldn't be the first new era for this band. Why not see the present day as a new beginning? Sure, it won't sound like Awake. But if every album sounded the same, we'd get bored. If they never had moved on from that same old formula, amazing as it was, then we wouldn't have all the other flavors of amazing. We wouldn't have Black Clouds and Silver Linings. We wouldn't have Octavarium. Or even Scenes From A Memory.
So now we are in the era of View and Astonishing. This is a fine thing. If this is where the band's creativity is heading, and what James is capable of singing now, then I'm here for it. 🥂
I am on the same page as you. Of course there are some contexts in life where you shouldn't accept anything less than the best, and hold yourselves and others to the highest standard, but if you do that all the time, you'll probably just bum yourself out. :lol
When it comes to Dream Theater, my personal approach is more along the lines of, "I am so happy to have this band in my life and so thankful that they are still making awesome music almost 40 years in. That is an exceedingly rare thing these days." Do I think that the band's best period is behind them and we're probably never getting anything on par with the "Big Four" ever again? Yes. Do I worry about it? Nope!
All of this.
I'm by far saying that I don't like them, in fact, it's the opposite. I agree with near all the above. There have been some pretty incredible songs and albums written in the Mangini era and I think they're still phenomenal musicians and a band I'll go to see until the opportunity to see them stops.
But for me....the prime DT era so to speak, when they were Dream F'n Theater was that three album run of SFAM, 6DOIT and TOT. That was them in full stride. That's not taking away from Images, Awake and FII because I dig the hell out of those albums as well....and Octavarium was a freaking solid album also....but...that three album run for me WAS peak DT.
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Not to get too off topic, but gmillerdrake makes a good point. I think there are different eras of the band that fans consider those “golden years”. I realize there is the “big four” which is sort of the majority consensus. But for me, I would expand it and just say ‘92-‘06 were the peak of this band. While I like, and sometimes love, stuff they’ve done since then. They just were never really the same after that. Or maybe I changed. If someone were to ask me where to start, I would just point them to anything during that period, then just keep going. Ok, maybe not FII for their first listen. But you know what I mean.
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DT is still my fave band, they keep making great albums, but I 100% agree with Trav86. And I don't think I ever known another band that continued 14 years at their peak.
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I agree with the last few posts. So pleased in hindsight I became a fan at the end of 2002 (I lamented not finding out about them sooner for years!) because I caught them when they were at the absolutely peak of their game live. Hard to believe that's over 20 years ago and I've now been a fan for most of their career. Time does funny things :)
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DT is still my fave band, they keep making great albums, but I 100% agree with Trav86. And I don't think I ever known another band that continued 14 years at their peak.
Absolutely spot on. Trav nailed it. While there were relative “dips” in that time period (hey, they can’t all be zingers) their peak period was in the time frame he referenced. Never thought about it in those terms, but it’s an amazing accomplishment when you think about it.
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Not to get too off topic, but gmillerdrake makes a good point. I think there are different eras of the band that fans consider those “golden years”. I realize there is the “big four” which is sort of the majority consensus. But for me, I would expand it and just say ‘92-‘06 were the peak of this band. While I like, and sometimes love, stuff they’ve done since then. They just were never really the same after that. Or maybe I changed. If someone were to ask me where to start, I would just point them to anything during that period, then just keep going. Ok, maybe not FII for their first listen. But you know what I mean.
So everything went downhill once JLB grew a beard? ;D
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Not to get too off topic, but gmillerdrake makes a good point. I think there are different eras of the band that fans consider those “golden years”. I realize there is the “big four” which is sort of the majority consensus. But for me, I would expand it and just say ‘92-‘06 were the peak of this band. While I like, and sometimes love, stuff they’ve done since then. They just were never really the same after that. Or maybe I changed. If someone were to ask me where to start, I would just point them to anything during that period, then just keep going. Ok, maybe not FII for their first listen. But you know what I mean.
So everything went downhill once JLB grew a beard? ;D
Well, i think he had some facial hair during the FII tour at some point :lol
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I am on the same page as you. Of course there are some contexts in life where you shouldn't accept anything less than the best, and hold yourselves and others to the highest standard, but if you do that all the time, you'll probably just bum yourself out. :lol
Oh I am in no way saying that we or the band should lower our standards! What I am saying is that yes, there is a new normal, and that in order to continue to hold up to a certain standard, that new normal needs to be acknowledged, even embraced.
A singer should always sing what they sing best. Here I go again, I know but please indulge me another opera analogy as both forms of singing are demanding and require an excellent command of technique and smart choices in order to sustain a thriving career: An opera singer typically will sing one type of role when they're young, a different type of role in the middle, and yet a different type later on. With each transition, they remain the same voice type, but take on roles with a different set of demands.
I'll use soprano Natalie Dessay as an example. She is a high coloratura soprano who became famous for singing the role of Olympia the Doll in The Tales of Hoffman. The role is written with high notes above high C, and her aria (which I've studied) is written with a high E flat (Eb6). She always performed the aria by ending it with a sustained Ab6! 😱
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/abFJyb3cNv8
Ultra high notes were her wheelhouse, her claim to fame. As her career progressed, she was a regular Queen of the Night - a role that she sang as her voice achieved weight and drama, but still requires rapid-fired high F's (F6). As she aged, she was singing lower, heavier roles like Violetta in La Traviata (high D) and eventually switched out of high coloratura repertoire entirely, switching to the mid-range lyric soprano roles in Hoffman and The Magic Flute instead (Pamina, another role I've studied, is only written to go up to a B flat). So, long story short, Ms. Dessay has not dropped her high standard by not singing the roles with all the craziest high notes that she became famous for, she is merely embracing her new normal in order to continually achieve that standard.
So if you can compare Ms. Dessay's and James's careers (and bear with me, this may only make sense to me and if so, apologies), I&W/Awake was his Tales of Hoffman era, Octavarium was his Queen of the Night, and Astonishing/today is his switch from the Queen to Pamina. Dessay is no less a great soprano for not singing notes above high C anymore or dropping the Doll and the Queen of the Night to embrace a different set of roles. She has simply made a series of smart moves to sustain her career. James can make similar choices and would still be the same great tenor.
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https://www.youtube.com/shorts/abFJyb3cNv8
Christ. That goes right through me 🤭
But seriously, amazing talent!
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Not to get too off topic, but gmillerdrake makes a good point. I think there are different eras of the band that fans consider those “golden years”. I realize there is the “big four” which is sort of the majority consensus. But for me, I would expand it and just say ‘92-‘06 were the peak of this band. While I like, and sometimes love, stuff they’ve done since then. They just were never really the same after that. Or maybe I changed. If someone were to ask me where to start, I would just point them to anything during that period, then just keep going. Ok, maybe not FII for their first listen. But you know what I mean.
So everything went downhill once JLB grew a beard? ;D
Well, i think he had some facial hair during the FII tour at some point :lol
If he would just shave he could sing better! :lol
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https://www.youtube.com/shorts/abFJyb3cNv8
Christ. That goes right through me 🤭
But seriously, amazing talent!
Yes, she's amazing! 😁 One of the GOAT's for sure. And fwiw, I have always held James in the highest esteem among the greatest singers on earth.
As for my Angel of Music, I really do believe his struggles can be alleviated with technical and repertoire adjustments. When he stops trying to sing the early material and extra high notes, and sings what he sings best now, I guarantee you that the high larynx and registration issues (which absolutely affect facility with pitch) will mostly if not entirely go away.
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i've been a huge fan of dream theater since the early 2000s, and i gotta say, james labrie's vocals have gone through some changes over the years. back in the day, his voice was like a powerhouse - hitting those high notes and carrying the complex melodies like a champ. the dude had serious range and control.
but, you know, time doesn't spare anyone. as the years rolled on, i've noticed a noticeable drop in his vocal quality. it's not like he's lost it all, but you can hear the strain and fatigue in his voice, especially when he tries to hit those high notes that used to come so effortlessly. his tone has also changed - it's less smooth and more raspy now.
i can't blame the guy, though. singing for a band like dream theater is no joke, and it's only natural that his voice would change with age and all the wear and tear from touring. plus, those high-energy performances night after night take their toll.
it's not all bad news, though. labrie still brings a ton of emotion to his singing, and he's adapted his style to work with his current vocal capabilities. the band has also adjusted their music to accommodate his changing voice, which is pretty cool.
all in all, while his vocals might not be what they once were, i still got mad respect for james labrie. he's a rock legend, and his journey through the years is a testament to the reality of getting older. ain't none of us staying 20 forever, right?
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i've been a huge fan of dream theater since the early 2000s, and i gotta say, james labrie's vocals have gone through some changes over the years. back in the day, his voice was like a powerhouse - hitting those high notes and carrying the complex melodies like a champ. the dude had serious range and control.
Even in the I&W days, his control was never that great.
He has always been inconsistent. Always. Now, he's had some great tours, most notably the ToT, 8V, and DT12 tours. But what James you get at any particular concert THROUGHOUT their career has always been a crapshoot.
And I love James, but let's not wax poetic about "back in the day". It's simply not true.
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i've been a huge fan of dream theater since the early 2000s, and i gotta say, james labrie's vocals have gone through some changes over the years. back in the day, his voice was like a powerhouse - hitting those high notes and carrying the complex melodies like a champ. the dude had serious range and control.
Even in the I&W days, his control was never that great.
He has always been inconsistent. Always. Now, he's had some great tours, most notably the ToT, 8V, and DT12 tours. But what James you get at any particular concert THROUGHOUT their career has always been a crapshoot.
And I love James, but let's not wax poetic about "back in the day". It's simply not true.
I love how "the 2000's" was "back in the day". :) :) :) :) (Just busting on you, TheHoveringSojourn!!! All in fun from an old-timer!)
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The thing is, and we talked about it in the Dreamsonic Thread...at the show, James never sounds too bad. It's all in the volume and excitement.
I remember going to the Scenes show in Boston in 2000 and thinking the show was great, but when I finally got the actual show, James was practically unlistenable.
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those high-energy performances night after night take their toll.
Don't think DT have done a "high-energy" performance in at least 15 years. ;D
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those high-energy performances night after night take their toll.
Don't think DT have done a "high-energy" performance in at least 15 years. ;D
gotta admit, tho, i miss those days.
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I will continue to go to every DT concert I can because as I said…..I utterly love the band. I’ll cheer and take home great memories from the concerts…..but the hey day of DT is long in the past.
This really depends on what you consider the "heyday"! If you're an early 90's, I&W/Awake-era purist, then yeah maybe that's a valid opinion for you. But why look at it in such bleak, all-or-nothing terms?
I think we're looking at here is a new era. And it wouldn't be the first new era for this band. Why not see the present day as a new beginning? Sure, it won't sound like Awake. But if every album sounded the same, we'd get bored. If they never had moved on from that same old formula, amazing as it was, then we wouldn't have all the other flavors of amazing. We wouldn't have Black Clouds and Silver Linings. We wouldn't have Octavarium. Or even Scenes From A Memory.
So now we are in the era of View and Astonishing. This is a fine thing. If this is where the band's creativity is heading, and what James is capable of singing now, then I'm here for it. 🥂
I am on the same page as you. Of course there are some contexts in life where you shouldn't accept anything less than the best, and hold yourselves and others to the highest standard, but if you do that all the time, you'll probably just bum yourself out. :lol
When it comes to Dream Theater, my personal approach is more along the lines of, "I am so happy to have this band in my life and so thankful that they are still making awesome music almost 40 years in. That is an exceedingly rare thing these days." Do I think that the band's best period is behind them and we're probably never getting anything on par with the "Big Four" ever again? Yes. Do I worry about it? Nope!
All of this.
Big agreement here. I saw Genesis two years ago and Phil wasn't great but the show was still amazing. I never thought I would get that opportunity. I'm sure there's some 12 year old somewhere that is 2 or 3 years away from discovering Dream Theater and I hope they get the opportunity to see them even if the show isn't as flawless as when I saw them in 2011 (which is when I think they were in their "heyday")
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DT has never really been about high energy shows. It's more about execution of really difficult parts. They are not Pantera.
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I don't really get why the impulse is to compare Dream Theater to something like Pantera or Iron Maiden when discussing on stage energy and general stage presence. There are plenty of artists in their genre who have a similar style of music and put on a much more engaging stage performance. Between the Buried and Me is the example that sticks out to me, even Haken has brought a lot of energy the last couple times I've seen them. There is definitely more of a spectrum of how engaging an artist can be on stage and it doesn't always have to be at the extreme level of some of the more bombastic metal bands out there.
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I don't think you'd get many to disagree that Maiden is a gold standard when it comes to stage presence, so I get why they would be mentioned in discussions about stage presence.
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I really do believe his struggles can be alleviated with technical and repertoire adjustments. When he stops trying to sing the early material and extra high notes, and sings what he sings best now, I guarantee you that the high larynx and registration issues (which absolutely affect facility with pitch) will mostly if not entirely go away.
First, thanks for the detailed description above. The way you looked at the eras as that singer aged, was very clear and makes a lot of sense. I am not a professionally trained vocalist (I do sing), but my wife is. And she has said similar things about JLB. I agree with the quoted above. I think JLB has to spend a lot of time with the band and modify how he sings everything to fit where his voice is now. Yes, he needs to work at it (I am sure he will), and once he's vocally strong, find the baseline and work from there.
BUT, the big question is -- will people accept what JLB's "new normal" is. *I* certainly will, because I want to see JLB have consistently strong performances.
However...
Even in the I&W days, his control was never that great.
He has always been inconsistent. Always. Now, he's had some great tours, most notably the ToT, 8V, and DT12 tours. But what James you get at any particular concert THROUGHOUT their career has always been a crapshoot.
And I love James, but let's not wax poetic about "back in the day". It's simply not true.
This point by TAC is absolutely spot-on. James is just not consistent. He never has been. And I'm not sure, even with modified the songs to fit his "new normal," whatever that might ultimately end up being, that the consistency will improve. Maybe it will. We just don't know. Other factors are in play live -- getting a cold, whether the air is dry or moist, what he's eating, how much sleep he gets, etc. Hell, air conditioning on a tour bus is absolutely BRUTAL for singers. Etc., etc., etc.
So TAC is absolutely correct. Even James pre-vocal chord injury was extremely inconsistent live. I don't see a lot of proof that he'll all of a sudden become consistent because he's singing in a more comfortable spot in his register. Time will tell. Fingers crossed. As a fan of his, I really hope once he puts in all the work, he sounds awesome, and is consistent, and all this stuff can go away.
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Yeah... it even mentions that in the Lifting Shadows book. The book actually mentions that his tendency to sing sharp* was a mark against him during auditions.
My take is that his sheer power used to mask it better. Just like an athlete who has dodgy fundamentals but still makes brilliant play after brilliant play due to their innate physical gifts.
Edit: *Flat, sorry. Derrick Oliver (who signed DT) explicitly references being concerned with LaBrie's tendency to sing flat, but was convinced by Prater that James could he coached through it. It's all on the first two pages of the "Face the Bitter Fight" chapter.
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I don't really get why the impulse is to compare Dream Theater to something like Pantera or Iron Maiden when discussing on stage energy and general stage presence. There are plenty of artists in their genre who have a similar style of music and put on a much more engaging stage performance. Between the Buried and Me is the example that sticks out to me, even Haken has brought a lot of energy the last couple times I've seen them. There is definitely more of a spectrum of how engaging an artist can be on stage and it doesn't always have to be at the extreme level of some of the more bombastic metal bands out there.
How old are the guys in the Buried and Me and Haken?
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I don't think you'd get many to disagree that Maiden is a gold standard when it comes to stage presence, so I get why they would be mentioned in discussions about stage presence.
they certainly are my gold standard :tup
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james labrie is undoubtedly the greatest singer of all time.
those who claim he sings flat are completely mistaken.
his voice is pure magic
his stage presence is remarkable
he dominates the stage with confidence...
his stage banter is both humorous and captivating, keeping the audience engaged throughout...
to the haters, i say: open your ears... truly appreciate the incredible talent of james labrie, who rightfully holds the title of the king of singing!
...And let's remember, we all age, and that's just a natural part of life...
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^ James LaBrie in the HOUSE!! Glad you could join us, James. We're a good group, if a tad critical now and then. But welcome!
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^ James LaBrie in the HOUSE!! Glad you could join us, James. We're a good group, if a tad critical now and then. But welcome!
:rollin
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OK, I'll spill.
I'm a JLB simp.
As a young man I was always a big music enthusiast. Some would say that I was passionate about music, and my love for progressive rock and metal ran deep. In the 90s, I had listened to countless bands and artists, but one day, my life took an unexpected turn thanks to the James LaBrie Mullmuzzler album.
It all began when I stumbled upon a dusty old record store in the heart of her town. While browsing the shelves, I noticed an album cover that caught my eye. It featured a striking image of a man shouting in another man's ear, and a sticker that referenced the legendary Dream Theater vocalist. The album was titled "Mullmuzzler" and had an intriguing aura about it. I decided to take a chance and purchased it, even though I knew nothing about JLB or Mullmuzzler at the time.
As I played the album for the first time, the music poured into my ears like a cascade of passion. The combination of James LaBrie's powerful vocals and the prog metal instrumentals left me in awe. I was captivated by the lyrical depth and the way the music seemed to tell a story of its own. I thought Beezlebubba was one of the greatest things I'd ever heard.
An intern
In a silhouette
Gets DNA
From the president
Let me tell you...
I guarantee it
He's got his
Yes senator
The bill's fat...
It feels good...
I didn't mean that
It's for the children
Don't forget it
Cause slick Willy
He's selling his jive
Slick Willy
He's taking a dive
Slick Willy
Slick Willy
Slick Willy
Oh Arafat
And Albright
America
A sad sight
Let me tell you...
I guarantee it
He's got his
You might also like
Guardian Angel
MullMuzzler
Shores Of Avalon
MullMuzzler
His Voice
MullMuzzler
We've got that we deserved
It's much too late
To go back
We were taken for the ride...
So many tried to say
We have only taken
What we've sown
And when time passed
It had grown
Into
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Bubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
While the country
Is burning down
We're being sold out
In the big town
Have they got yours?
Cause I guarantee you...
They've got mine
Now slick Willy
He's selling his jive
Slick Willy
Is taking a dive
Slick Willy
Slick Willy
Slick Willy
Slick Willy
Slick Willy
Slick Willy
We've got that we deserved
It's much too late
To go back
We were taken for the ride...
So many tried to say
We have only taken
What we've sown
And when time passed
It had grown
Into
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Bubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
I soon discovered that there were multiple JLB albums, such as Explorer's Club, as well as another Mullmuzzler album. Each with its own unique charm. I immersed myself in the music, spending countless hours dissecting the lyrics, deciphering the melodies, and connecting with the emotions conveyed through the songs. The music became my refuge, my companion through both joyous and challenging times.
My newfound passion for the Mullmuzzler albums led me to connect with like-minded individuals in online music communities. But then, nothing was more mindblowing then when I finally heard James LaBrie's work with Dream Theater. Up until the mid 00s, I had known about Dream Theater from the sticker on the Mullmuzzler CD, but I had never chanced upon their music. And that dusty record store I mentioned never had any DT in stock.
Finally, with the dawn of youtube, it was all at my fingertips. I wound up buying a ton of Dream Theater CDs on Amazon.com. And I have never looked back. But still, Mullmuzzler 1 is very special to me, being my first JLB album.
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I have never heard of anyone getting into DT through albums like Mullmuzzler and Explorer's Club. That is definitely a unique path, one that could only occur in one of those old preowned record stops that have a lot of weird used inventory.
I won't lie - JLB was a hurdle for me, initially. I love his voice now, but it was an acquired taste. His solo albums never did much for me.
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It all began when I stumbled upon a dusty old record store in the heart of her town.
Who's town?
-
It all began when I stumbled upon a dusty old record store in the heart of her town.
Who's town?
JLB's dog, Faythe
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Those lyrics aged like milk. :\
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It all began when I stumbled upon a dusty old record store in the heart of her town.
Who's town?
Not sure how that got in there!
-
I'm happy it was being discussed at least, but whatever fix the band does, they need to do a better job than the last couple of legs. It is going to have to be addressed.
The question is would they replace him with a younger voice that can deliver the old material as it should? These are important to be able to sing as written. I can't see the band saying they will write songs around the decline of James and be ok with not performing them or having him sing them differently. Unless they're ok with being that old band going through the motions or conceding to a lower standard.
-
An intern
In a silhouette
Gets DNA
From the president
Let me tell you...
I guarantee it
He's got his
Yes senator
The bill's fat...
It feels good...
I didn't mean that
It's for the children
Don't forget it
Cause slick Willy
He's selling his jive
Slick Willy
He's taking a dive
Slick Willy
Slick Willy
Slick Willy
Oh Arafat
And Albright
America
A sad sight
Let me tell you...
I guarantee it
He's got his
You might also like
Guardian Angel
MullMuzzler
Shores Of Avalon
MullMuzzler
His Voice
MullMuzzler
We've got that we deserved
It's much too late
To go back
We were taken for the ride...
So many tried to say
We have only taken
What we've sown
And when time passed
It had grown
Into
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Bubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
While the country
Is burning down
We're being sold out
In the big town
Have they got yours?
Cause I guarantee you...
They've got mine
Now slick Willy
He's selling his jive
Slick Willy
Is taking a dive
Slick Willy
Slick Willy
Slick Willy
Slick Willy
Slick Willy
Slick Willy
We've got that we deserved
It's much too late
To go back
We were taken for the ride...
So many tried to say
We have only taken
What we've sown
And when time passed
It had grown
Into
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Bubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Beelzebubba
Best part of the song, IMO.
On a serious note, I think that first Mullmuzzler album was pretty great for the most part.
-
Just want to put out there that I am a big fan of both Mullmuzzler albums. I think they’re really underrated.
-
Just want to put out there that I am a big fan of both Mullmuzzler albums. I think they’re really underrated.
They're also pretty unique in style. I love the following solo albums under James' own name, but as great as they are, they're "just" prog metal albums. Especially the latest two - again, great albums, but you could swap some songs here and there between the two albums and no one would be the wiser.
The two Mullmuzzler were something unique, not like Dream Theater, not like another prog metal band, it was just something crafted specifically to let James shine. I think also they both complement each other quite nicely - the first has the best songs, but the second as a whole album is overall better and more consistent.
And Beelzebubba is possibly the worst song (or if you prefer, least good) on James' entire solo discography, sorry :biggrin:
-
I really dig (most) of the two Mullmuzzler albums. I just struggle with the production. Everything sounds like a demo.
I'd LOVE to hear those albums with the production of EoP.
-
And Beelzebubba is possibly the worst song (or if you prefer, least good) on James' entire solo discography, sorry :biggrin:
no worries...
i'm kinda out there... a little insane some may say...
I just made that whole thing up... :lol
-
I really dig (most) of the two Mullmuzzler albums. I just struggle with the production. Everything sounds like a demo.
I'd LOVE to hear those albums with the production of EoP.
I don't think they sound terrible, but they do sound like the individual parts were recorded in home studios and then emailed in. Which is a lot of albums nowadays, even some really great ones that sound excellent, but back then it was kind of a new thing and I think that probably hurt the overall sound a bit.
Both have their share of good songs, but I think the first has the stronger overall writing. The second has some really cool stuff too though. And yeah, those were songs that were right for James' voice, unlike a lot of DT material.
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What I found more insightful than his admitting he can't sing I&W the same way he used to in his 20s - we all agree on that probably - is that he said he is changing the melodies to suit what he can sing. This is something people have brought up on other threads and I feel like it's always brought up as a negative thing-- on that is contributing to the live struggles. But here he is saying he is altering the notes to what he feels he can accomplish.
I think that changing up the melodies to suit what he can now sing is key. However, and I've pointed this out before, he's honestly not very good at it. Improvising and embellishing your vocals is something that some excel at and others do not, and he most certainly does not. I think to avoid the train wrecks what he needs to work on is standardizing much of what he sings, rather than thinking he can wing it on stage, because his improvised vocals tend to be pretty awful. I don't know what their tour rehearsals are like, but I'd bet that those rehearsals are where he can resolve a lot of the problems, and frankly, the rest of the band should be pretty involved in this aspect of the show now.
-
I really dig (most) of the two Mullmuzzler albums. I just struggle with the production. Everything sounds like a demo.
I'd LOVE to hear those albums with the production of EoP.
I don't think they sound terrible, but they do sound like the individual parts were recorded in home studios and then emailed in. Which is a lot of albums nowadays, even some really great ones that sound excellent, but back then it was kind of a new thing and I think that probably hurt the overall sound a bit.
Both have their share of good songs, but I think the first has the stronger overall writing. The second has some really cool stuff too though. And yeah, those were songs that were right for James' voice, unlike a lot of DT material.
They definitely don't sound terrible at all. They sound like demos. They sound like they are ready to be properly recorded, you know?
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I really dig (most) of the two Mullmuzzler albums. I just struggle with the production. Everything sounds like a demo.
I'd LOVE to hear those albums with the production of EoP.
I don't think they sound terrible, but they do sound like the individual parts were recorded in home studios and then emailed in. Which is a lot of albums nowadays, even some really great ones that sound excellent, but back then it was kind of a new thing and I think that probably hurt the overall sound a bit.
Both have their share of good songs, but I think the first has the stronger overall writing. The second has some really cool stuff too though. And yeah, those were songs that were right for James' voice, unlike a lot of DT material.
They definitely don't sound terrible at all. They sound like demos. They sound like they are ready to be properly recorded, you know?
Yeah, it's too bad they couldn't have been properly produced and recorded in the same studio.
Also, Mangini's drum parts are really good on those albums. I'm not super familiar with what he's done with DT, but they definitely don't have that mechanical drum machine type quality to them that people complain about.
-
Just want to put out there that I am a big fan of both Mullmuzzler albums. I think they’re really underrated.
They're also pretty unique in style. I love the following solo albums under James' own name, but as great as they are, they're "just" prog metal albums. Especially the latest two - again, great albums, but you could swap some songs here and there between the two albums and no one would be the wiser.
The two Mullmuzzler were something unique, not like Dream Theater, not like another prog metal band, it was just something crafted specifically to let James shine. I think also they both complement each other quite nicely - the first has the best songs, but the second as a whole album is overall better and more consistent.
And Beelzebubba is possibly the worst song (or if you prefer, least good) on James' entire solo discography, sorry :biggrin:
I think this is the best description I have ever seen for these albums. I feel exactly the same way.
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And Beelzebubba is possibly the worst song (or if you prefer, least good) on James' entire solo discography, sorry :biggrin:
no worries...
i'm kinda out there... a little insane some may say...
I just made that whole thing up... :lol
Dude, I figured you had to be trolling. I mean there's no way anybody likes that song let alone loves it.
That said I do love LaBrie's solo work but EoP is just something else. On fire lyrically, compositional, and sonically. I really dig (most) of the two Mullmuzzler albums. I just struggle with the production. Everything sounds like a demo.
I'd LOVE to hear those albums with the production of EoP.
Agreed. In the booklet for the first one James gushes about how great Terry Brown was to record vocals with and I'm thinking, really? Cause your vocals sound like they were recorded in a shed.
It's not terrible and in some ways it works for the album. I think 2 actually works quite well even though it's a quite unique sound but yeah, you gotta be in the mood and in the right frame of mine to look past the production.
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I love James on the Tim Donahue Madmen and Sinners album. Stellar!!!!
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Also suffers from less than stellar production (mostly drums) but a fantastic James album is Frameshift - Unweaving the Rainbow.
Their other album with Sebastian Bach is also great.
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I forgot that Terry Brown did the Mullmuzzler album (though just the vocals, or did he produce the whole thing?).
That Framshift album is definitely one of the best sounding recordings of James. A shame it didn’t have a real drummer.
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I really dig (most) of the two Mullmuzzler albums. I just struggle with the production. Everything sounds like a demo.
I'd LOVE to hear those albums with the production of EoP.
THIS.
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I forgot that Terry Brown did the Mullmuzzler album (though just the vocals, or did he produce the whole thing?).
That Framshift album is definitely one of the best sounding recordings of James. A shame it didn’t have a real drummer.
He’s credited as producing the whole album. He produced just the vocals on Scenes from a Memory though.
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I forgot that Terry Brown did the Mullmuzzler album (though just the vocals, or did he produce the whole thing?).
That Framshift album is definitely one of the best sounding recordings of James. A shame it didn’t have a real drummer.
He’s credited as producing the whole album. He produced just the vocals on Scenes from a Memory though.
Ah, that's right. Still guessing the whole thing would have turned out better if it were recorded all in the same room with a proper studio and budget (which I imagine they didn't really have).
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I love James on the Tim Donahue Madmen and Sinners album. Stellar!!!!
That Frameshift album is definitely one of the best sounding recordings of James. A shame it didn’t have a real drummer.
Both are great records where the writers knew what they wanted from James, and got it brilliantly.
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I forgot that Terry Brown did the Mullmuzzler album (though just the vocals, or did he produce the whole thing?).
That Framshift album is definitely one of the best sounding recordings of James. A shame it didn’t have a real drummer.
He’s credited as producing the whole album. He produced just the vocals on Scenes from a Memory though.
Ah, that's right. Still guessing the whole thing would have turned out better if it were recorded all in the same room with a proper studio and budget (which I imagine they didn't really have).
Agreed
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What I found more insightful than his admitting he can't sing I&W the same way he used to in his 20s - we all agree on that probably - is that he said he is changing the melodies to suit what he can sing. This is something people have brought up on other threads and I feel like it's always brought up as a negative thing-- on that is contributing to the live struggles. But here he is saying he is altering the notes to what he feels he can accomplish.
I think that changing up the melodies to suit what he can now sing is key. However, and I've pointed this out before, he's honestly not very good at it. Improvising and embellishing your vocals is something that some excel at and others do not, and he most certainly does not. I think to avoid the train wrecks what he needs to work on is standardizing much of what he sings, rather than thinking he can wing it on stage, because his improvised vocals tend to be pretty awful. I don't know what their tour rehearsals are like, but I'd bet that those rehearsals are where he can resolve a lot of the problems, and frankly, the rest of the band should be pretty involved in this aspect of the show now.
Agreed 100%
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I really dig (most) of the two Mullmuzzler albums. I just struggle with the production. Everything sounds like a demo.
I'd LOVE to hear those albums with the production of EoP.
THIS.
Those albums also have incredible Mangini performances, but indeed they sound almost like demo recordings, with the drums suffering most.
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What I found more insightful than his admitting he can't sing I&W the same way he used to in his 20s - we all agree on that probably - is that he said he is changing the melodies to suit what he can sing. This is something people have brought up on other threads and I feel like it's always brought up as a negative thing-- on that is contributing to the live struggles. But here he is saying he is altering the notes to what he feels he can accomplish.
I think that changing up the melodies to suit what he can now sing is key. However, and I've pointed this out before, he's honestly not very good at it. Improvising and embellishing your vocals is something that some excel at and others do not, and he most certainly does not. I think to avoid the train wrecks what he needs to work on is standardizing much of what he sings, rather than thinking he can wing it on stage, because his improvised vocals tend to be pretty awful. I don't know what their tour rehearsals are like, but I'd bet that those rehearsals are where he can resolve a lot of the problems, and frankly, the rest of the band should be pretty involved in this aspect of the show now.
Agreed 100%
I also agree. A lot of work needs to be done by the entire band to make sure those new vocal melodies can be delivered consistently night after night by JLB, and he is comfortable with it and enjoys it. This is a difficult process for a singer. JLB has admitted he can't sing like he used to. That took guts. Now they have to band together as a family and make sure not just that JLB sings things in a way everyone is happy with, but that JLB has the confidence and believe in the new melodies.
I give James Labrie a TON of credit. As, I think, should most fans. But now that he has stepped up and said that he can't do some of the things he used to, as fans, I think that while we're entitled to not like what they come up with and express that, I feel we also now owe JLB a lot of positivity and support. He is still a great singer. He's just lost the high end that he once had. And that has to be really hard on a singer like that.
I'd love to see DT fly Ray Alder in from Spain and all work together on finding the right vocal melody modifications. Alder has done it masterfully with Fates Warning. I have zero doubt that DT can do it too.
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just next time, think about and rehearse these things before a tour starts.
Though they did change tuning and melodies, that could've been avoided by proper rehearsals
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just next time, think about and rehearse these things before a tour starts.
Though they did change tuning and melodies, that could've been avoided by proper rehearsals
yeah, i agree. every band has to work out stuff like this in rehearsals and it's weird that they can't seem to straighten out JLBs parts that they must know he can't sing anymore (due to no fault of his own)
i also agree with what some others were saying about how it's time for the other band members to step up (or move? lol they all stand still like statues most of the show) and pick up some of the slack. it's not fair to leave it entirely on james
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I respect that James LaBrie has never used autotune.
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I respect that James LaBrie has never used autotune.
Assuming you're counting Melodyne in that, I wouldn't be so sure. I'd say 99% of singers these days use it. It's not even a big deal.
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I respect that James LaBrie has never used autotune.
doesn't he use Melodyne?
edit: what adami said. it's definitely not a big deal but i'm also pretty sure he has used it lol
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They definitely use it in their studio releases and probably live releases as well. I don't think that he actually uses it live but there was a time when I had my suspicions and now I'm kind of wondering if maybe it was something that they stopped.
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They definitely use it in their studio releases and probably live releases as well. I don't think that he actually uses it live but there was a time when I had my suspicions and now I'm kind of wondering if maybe it was something that they stopped.
He has actually admitted it is used sometimes in the studio and live releases but never in concert.
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I really dig (most) of the two Mullmuzzler albums. I just struggle with the production. Everything sounds like a demo.
I'd LOVE to hear those albums with the production of EoP.
I don't think they sound terrible, but they do sound like the individual parts were recorded in home studios and then emailed in. Which is a lot of albums nowadays, even some really great ones that sound excellent, but back then it was kind of a new thing and I think that probably hurt the overall sound a bit.
Both have their share of good songs, but I think the first has the stronger overall writing. The second has some really cool stuff too though. And yeah, those were songs that were right for James' voice, unlike a lot of DT material.
They definitely don't sound terrible at all. They sound like demos. They sound like they are ready to be properly recorded, you know?
Yeah, it's too bad they couldn't have been properly produced and recorded in the same studio.
Also, Mangini's drum parts are really good on those albums. I'm not super familiar with what he's done with DT, but they definitely don't have that mechanical drum machine type quality to them that people complain about.
Mangini's drums all sound triggered to me which gives that drum machine quality to them IMO
What I found more insightful than his admitting he can't sing I&W the same way he used to in his 20s - we all agree on that probably - is that he said he is changing the melodies to suit what he can sing. This is something people have brought up on other threads and I feel like it's always brought up as a negative thing-- on that is contributing to the live struggles. But here he is saying he is altering the notes to what he feels he can accomplish.
I think that changing up the melodies to suit what he can now sing is key. However, and I've pointed this out before, he's honestly not very good at it. Improvising and embellishing your vocals is something that some excel at and others do not, and he most certainly does not. I think to avoid the train wrecks what he needs to work on is standardizing much of what he sings, rather than thinking he can wing it on stage, because his improvised vocals tend to be pretty awful. I don't know what their tour rehearsals are like, but I'd bet that those rehearsals are where he can resolve a lot of the problems, and frankly, the rest of the band should be pretty involved in this aspect of the show now.
Agreed 100%
Completely agree, I don't feel like he was always this way (I might be misremembering) but he'll have a great line and it sounds like he decides to just take that shit right off the rails.
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There's a lot of autotune on recent DT albums and some moments where it is pretty noticeable at that (a couple sections on The Astonishing namely). It's not a big deal though, I'm not sure if there's a single notable rock band out there that doesn't use some autotune, it's just the industry standard and has been for decades. Kind of a misunderstood tool IMO.
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yeah, definitely not a big deal. but the post saying he never used it was definitely misleading!
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There's a lot of autotune on recent DT albums and some moments where it is pretty noticeable at that (a couple sections on The Astonishing namely). It's not a big deal though, I'm not sure if there's a single notable rock band out there that doesn't use some autotune, it's just the industry standard and has been for decades. Kind of a misunderstood tool IMO.
The term is widely misunderstood and often conflated with other production VST’s/techniques, some of which have been in use since the mid ‘80s.
Doctoring or comping vocals is not the same as employing’Autotune,’ which, as anyone who’s ever recorded can tell you, is a virtually useless plugin unless a singer is already 95% there to begin with.
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If he ever just stopped putting the “w” sound before every vowel that would be a big improvement for me.
Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me . . .
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If he ever just stopped putting the “w” sound before every vowel that would be a big improvement for me.
Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me . . .
:rollin
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haha :D
Every time I wonder about it, I feel like JLB can't be replaced just like that...Imagine from the other members perspective :
1) He has been there since I&W, his voice is the only known by most, like axl rose for gnr.
2) They are old and probably don't imagine changing their habits.
3) Maybe they think the chances someone not too young can do the work, at this age, without being a diva etc...
4) Low risk to wreck another part of the DT fanbase
5) Maybe they like the band writes album, then singer rehearses via webcam :D
6) True friendship over opinion
Cons :
-They hit a technical limitation like that
-Even if it's not like anselmo at the end of pantera, he seems not a lot physically with the band outside of tours.
-He puts W and Wo before voyels :D
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If he ever just stopped putting the “w” sound before every vowel that would be a big improvement for me.
Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me . . .
That is painfully true :lol
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Every time I wonder about it, I feel like JLB can't be replaced just like that...Imagine from the other members perspective :
1) He has been there since I&W, his voice is the only known by most, like axl rose for gnr.
2) They are old and probably don't imagine changing their habits.
3) Maybe they think the chances someone not too young can do the work, at this age, without being a diva etc...
4) Low risk to wreck another part of the DT fanbase
5) Maybe they like the band writes album, then singer rehearses via webcam :D
6) True friendship over opinion
Cons :
-They hit a technical limitation like that
-Even if it's not like anselmo at the end of pantera, he seems not a lot physically with the band outside of tours.
-He puts W and Wo before voyels :D
All very valid points.
Let's remember our community here is a small world. For every user that posts that they can live without Pull Me Under, there are dozens of fans at concerts that will roar when the song starts. True, JLB has his fair share of critics but there would be an equally large (I daresay WAY LARGER) number of people that would jump ship without him. I am one of those, for sure - I would not "ragequit" the band if James were to go, but they'd better put a total and complete masterpiece of an album to keep me interested.
Also, which band with this longevity, and this stability with the lead singer, changed vocalist and remained at the top of their game? with due proportions, look at Judas Priest, they brought in a guy that could do (and scream) anything Halford could do and even more, and the fanbase still dwindled and people wanted Rob back anyway.
There's no scenario, at this point of their carreer, where DT changes vocalist and do even better than before. Best scenario? they play more or less the same venues they usually do with less people in attendance, and fans for a while enjoy the novelty of hearing Take the Time and Voices live like it's 1994 again. But replacing James would bring DT into "bands that still go on replacing members here and there while there's still people who want to see them" territory, the twilight of their carreer.
EDIT: Another aspect to consider, who would even replace James? prog metal is a small world, there is no singer out there who could potentially join DT and cause an earthquake of excitement and sales. Maybe Russell Allen, but still DT won't become bigger stars overnight. So they either get an unknown talent like Priest did with Ripper, a guy no one knows, or an estabilished singer from the genre. In neither of these two cases the prog world "breaks" and everyone jumps on DT's bandwagon.
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To respond to the post above:
Its not a matter of getting bigger or selling more. Its a matter of delivering the same quality of music and performing live up to their standards.
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And under no circumstances does this fan think that Russell Allen is a move in that direction.
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Every time I wonder about it, I feel like JLB can't be replaced just like that...Imagine from the other members perspective :
1) He has been there since I&W, his voice is the only known by most, like axl rose for gnr.
2) They are old and probably don't imagine changing their habits.
3) Maybe they think the chances someone not too young can do the work, at this age, without being a diva etc...
4) Low risk to wreck another part of the DT fanbase
5) Maybe they like the band writes album, then singer rehearses via webcam :D
6) True friendship over opinion
Cons :
-They hit a technical limitation like that
-Even if it's not like anselmo at the end of pantera, he seems not a lot physically with the band outside of tours.
-He puts W and Wo before voyels :D
All very valid points.
Let's remember our community here is a small world. For every user that posts that they can live without Pull Me Under, there are dozens of fans at concerts that will roar when the song starts. True, JLB has his fair share of critics but there would be an equally large (I daresay WAY LARGER) number of people that would jump ship without him. I am one of those, for sure - I would not "ragequit" the band if James were to go, but they'd better put a total and complete masterpiece of an album to keep me interested.
Also, which band with this longevity, and this stability with the lead singer, changed vocalist and remained at the top of their game? with due proportions, look at Judas Priest, they brought in a guy that could do (and scream) anything Halford could do and even more, and the fanbase still dwindled and people wanted Rob back anyway.
There's no scenario, at this point of their carreer, where DT changes vocalist and do even better than before. Best scenario? they play more or less the same venues they usually do with less people in attendance, and fans for a while enjoy the novelty of hearing Take the Time and Voices live like it's 1994 again. But replacing James would bring DT into "bands that still go on replacing members here and there while there's still people who want to see them" territory, the twilight of their carreer.
EDIT: Another aspect to consider, who would even replace James? prog metal is a small world, there is no singer out there who could potentially join DT and cause an earthquake of excitement and sales. Maybe Russell Allen, but still DT won't become bigger stars overnight. So they either get an unknown talent like Priest did with Ripper, a guy no one knows, or an estabilished singer from the genre. In neither of these two cases the prog world "breaks" and everyone jumps on DT's bandwagon.
When I saw Dream Theater people were dancing in the aisels during pull me under. The security people kept having to force people to go back to their seats.
When I come to dreamtheaterforums.org it's 10 pages of complaining about James and calling on him to be replaced.
No wonder these guys all shut down their "official" forums long ago.
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When I come to dreamtheaterforums.org it's 10 pages of complaining about James and calling on him to be replaced.
No wonder these guys all shut down their "official" forums long ago.
Yes, because truly that's all this forum is about. :\
Your exaggeration conveniently ignores everything except those "10 pages," as well as the positive things said in support of James. If you feel some of that discussion is negative, you might better spend your time contributing something positive to that conversation and having a discussion rather than criticizing a community you've been part of for a few days.
And, no, that isn't why any of the members of DT shut down their official forums long ago.
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Ape
There is a lot of great comradery on this forum as well as some deep music discussions and in some cases some personal ones that always show support. I have only been here 2 years but this is a great place to discover new music, partake in some fun roulettes and share opinions agreed or challenged but always respectful. Welcome to the forum! There's a lot of great stuff here. :)
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Shut up, newbie. We don't like you either.
I kid, I kid. :biggrin:
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Yeah, I know, but I like you all!. :heart
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I'm going to try and be more positive. I admit I did not join with noble intentions. I had heard this place was very negative from another group I'm a part of, and rushed here to defend the band. When I finally got here I found more or less what I expected, lots of criticizing the band going completely off the rails, tons of negativity, and basically the mentality of sportsradio the day after the football team loses.
But since I'm still here, I will try a different approach, or leave altogether. I will not criticize the mods anymore for letting bashing slide and I will not resort to just trolling when things seem hopeless for those who still enjoying liking DT.
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When I finally got here I found more or less what I expected, lots of criticizing the band going completely off the rails, tons of negativity, and basically the mentality of sportsradio the day after the football team loses.
links? i'm relatively new myself but haven't seen any of this. i enjoy DT a lot but i also enjoy eating popcorn so please point me to it! :corn
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I'm going to try and be more positive. I admit I did not join with noble intentions. I had heard this place was very negative from another group I'm a part of, and rushed here to defend the band. When I finally got here I found more or less what I expected, lots of criticizing the band going completely off the rails, tons of negativity, and basically the mentality of sportsradio the day after the football team loses.
But since I'm still here, I will try a different approach, or leave altogether. I will not criticize the mods anymore for letting bashing slide and I will not resort to just trolling when things seem hopeless for those who still enjoying liking DT.
Woah!. You shouldn't have to TRY. I didn't realize there was a DT mafia... :lol
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When I finally got here I found more or less what I expected, lots of criticizing the band going completely off the rails, tons of negativity, and basically the mentality of sportsradio the day after the football team loses.
links? i'm relatively new myself but haven't seen any of this. i enjoy DT a lot but i also enjoy eating popcorn so please point me to it! :corn
No, this is just attempting to bait me into negativity and trolling, 10 minutes into my pledge to do better
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I had heard this place was very negative from another group I'm a part of
Well, don't believe the hype, because it isn't true.
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I'm going to try and be more positive. I admit I did not join with noble intentions. I had heard this place was very negative from another group I'm a part of, and rushed here to defend the band. When I finally got here I found more or less what I expected, lots of criticizing the band going completely off the rails, tons of negativity, and basically the mentality of sportsradio the day after the football team loses.
WE will all defend the band. I bought my ticket and loved the show, but like when a football team plays, it's ok to say the QB threw a bad pick or something like that. We're just talking, shooting the shit.
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When I finally got here I found more or less what I expected, lots of criticizing the band going completely off the rails, tons of negativity, and basically the mentality of sportsradio the day after the football team loses.
links? i'm relatively new myself but haven't seen any of this. i enjoy DT a lot but i also enjoy eating popcorn so please point me to it! :corn
No, this is just attempting to bait me into negativity and trolling, 10 minutes into my pledge to do better
requesting a link to aforementioned "off the rails, negative sportsradio" isn't baiting, i was just interested in seeing it myself! seems like it might not actually exist tho since it is possible to have a negative opinion of something without it being off the rails negative
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I'm going to try and be more positive. I admit I did not join with noble intentions. I had heard this place was very negative from another group I'm a part of, and rushed here to defend the band. When I finally got here I found more or less what I expected, lots of criticizing the band going completely off the rails, tons of negativity, and basically the mentality of sportsradio the day after the football team loses.
But since I'm still here, I will try a different approach, or leave altogether. I will not criticize the mods anymore for letting bashing slide and I will not resort to just trolling when things seem hopeless for those who still enjoying liking DT.
What do you mean by this? Judging by your other post about DT's alleged politics, which was chock full of negative stereotypes-- about Jews in particular-- I would say you are on thin ice but just curious as to your intentions.
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I'm going to try and be more positive. I admit I did not join with noble intentions. I had heard this place was very negative from another group I'm a part of, and rushed here to defend the band. When I finally got here I found more or less what I expected, lots of criticizing the band going completely off the rails, tons of negativity, and basically the mentality of sportsradio the day after the football team loses.
But since I'm still here, I will try a different approach, or leave altogether. I will not criticize the mods anymore for letting bashing slide and I will not resort to just trolling when things seem hopeless for those who still enjoying liking DT.
You do you, of course; I'd never tell you what to do or not, but if you're interested, and have an open mind, join the fun. I know I've experienced a couple different communities more or less related to the band, and this is BY FAR the most civil, the most intelligent, and the most.... giving, for lack of a better word, of any I've been to. There is at least one, maybe two - we're not going to name names or provide links - that in my not so humble experience, SEVERELY crossed the line (lines?) over the years. I've only once, ever, contemplated notifying someone off-line of activity on-line and it was at one of those sites.
In contrast, here, these are my friends. Not my "internet friends", my FRIENDS. We meet. We break bread. We attend each other's weddings, funerals and other life events. There are people here that I talk to regularly and we haven't mentioned "Dream Theater" in years, save maybe to coordinate concert meetings. Some I don't agree with on all - or many - "issues", but I've come to learn that differing opinions aren't character flaws.
I think you'll find what you bring here. If you come in with a negative attitude looking for conflict, you'll find it, because you reap what you sow. If you come in looking for good people that won't always pull punches or tell you what you want to hear, then you'll find that too, and maybe, just maybe, come out with some relationships that will enrich your life.
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Amen, Brother.
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I'm going to try and be more positive. I admit I did not join with noble intentions. I had heard this place was very negative from another group I'm a part of, and rushed here to defend the band. When I finally got here I found more or less what I expected, lots of criticizing the band going completely off the rails, tons of negativity, and basically the mentality of sportsradio the day after the football team loses.
But since I'm still here, I will try a different approach, or leave altogether. I will not criticize the mods anymore for letting bashing slide and I will not resort to just trolling when things seem hopeless for those who still enjoying liking DT.
What do you mean by this? Judging by your other post about DT's alleged politics, which was chock full of negative stereotypes-- about Jews in particular-- I would say you are on thin ice but just curious as to your intentions.
Hello There,
Looking back, I recognize that my responses may have come across as trolling, and for that, I apologize. It wasn't the right way to handle the situation, and I regret my actions.
In the heat of the moment, while defending the band from criticism, I allowed my emotions to get the best of me. Rather than engaging in a constructive and mature dialogue, I resorted to a less than appropriate approach. I now see that this was a mistake, and I'm committed to learning from it.
Also... I want to stress that I hold the Jewish community in extremely high regard and had no intention of causing offense or implying anything negative. It's crucial to me that this is made clear, and I apologize for any misunderstandings or hurt feelings that may have arisen.
As for the locked thread, I respect the decision made by the moderators, and I won't discuss the specifics, as per their wishes. Moving forward, I aim to approach discussions with more thoughtfulness, empathy, and understanding, ensuring that my words and actions reflect the respect and consideration everyone deserves.
If you'd like to discuss the specifics of the Politics of Dream Theater thread, or anything else from my trolling days, please add it to my inbox.
I'm going to try and be more positive. I admit I did not join with noble intentions. I had heard this place was very negative from another group I'm a part of, and rushed here to defend the band. When I finally got here I found more or less what I expected, lots of criticizing the band going completely off the rails, tons of negativity, and basically the mentality of sportsradio the day after the football team loses.
But since I'm still here, I will try a different approach, or leave altogether. I will not criticize the mods anymore for letting bashing slide and I will not resort to just trolling when things seem hopeless for those who still enjoying liking DT.
You do you, of course; I'd never tell you what to do or not, but if you're interested, and have an open mind, join the fun. I know I've experienced a couple different communities more or less related to the band, and this is BY FAR the most civil, the most intelligent, and the most.... giving, for lack of a better word, of any I've been to. There is at least one, maybe two - we're not going to name names or provide links - that in my not so humble experience, SEVERELY crossed the line (lines?) over the years. I've only once, ever, contemplated notifying someone off-line of activity on-line and it was at one of those sites.
In contrast, here, these are my friends. Not my "internet friends", my FRIENDS. We meet. We break bread. We attend each other's weddings, funerals and other life events. There are people here that I talk to regularly and we haven't mentioned "Dream Theater" in years, save maybe to coordinate concert meetings. Some I don't agree with on all - or many - "issues", but I try to remember that differing opinions aren't character flaws.
I think you'll find what you bring here. If you come in with a negative attitude looking for conflict, you'll find it, because you reap what you sow. If you come in looking for good people that won't always pull punches or tell you what you want to hear, then you'll find that too, and maybe, just maybe, come out with some relationships that will enrich your life.
Yes... I recognize that now. I will try a different approach.
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Why would someone actually join the forum to cause negativity? Is this a "see I told you so" situation? Give the forum a chance or be gone, JEEZ! :facepalm:
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Why would someone actually join the forum to cause negativity? Is this a "see I told you so" situation? Give the forum a chance or be gone, JEEZ! :facepalm:
Yes. And then turn around and tell everyone instead of just moving on. It’s all attention seeking.
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Why would someone actually join the forum to cause negativity? Is this a "see I told you so" situation? Give the forum a chance or be gone, JEEZ! :facepalm:
That is the plan!
Why would someone actually join the forum to cause negativity? Is this a "see I told you so" situation? Give the forum a chance or be gone, JEEZ! :facepalm:
Yes. And then turn around and tell everyone instead of just moving on. It’s all attention seeking.
I'm deeply sorry that, in being sorry, I have found new ways to offend. Let's please keep this on topic, and feel free to slide into my DMs if you'd like to hash it out privately. :metal
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I will not resort to just trolling when things seem hopeless for those who still enjoying liking DT.
I mean, I get you, but everyone here is enjoying and liking DT. We just get more caught up in the inside baseball and analysis, and we've been in the fandom for so long that we can discuss changes we have observed over a long period of time, without giving the backstory of the history of our thoughts and opinions to each other, because we know those thoughts and opinions. I know what everyone here thought about every tour after ADTOE because I was literally here discussing these tours with them, and some of these guys go 10+ years beyond that. We all share that place of awareness that Dream Theater is a great band in history because we're here on a DT-related forum 20, 15, 10 years later discussing them. If you're just coming in here, you'll read those stories of how much we really love Dream Theater when we get sappy, just not every day and in every discussion :heart
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Why would someone actually join the forum to cause negativity? Is this a "see I told you so" situation? Give the forum a chance or be gone, JEEZ! :facepalm:
That is the plan!
Why would someone actually join the forum to cause negativity? Is this a "see I told you so" situation? Give the forum a chance or be gone, JEEZ! :facepalm:
Yes. And then turn around and tell everyone instead of just moving on. It’s all attention seeking.
I'm deeply sorry that, in being sorry, I have found new ways to offend. Let's please keep this on topic, and feel free to slide into my DMs if you'd like to hash it out privately. :metal
There's nothing to hash out, its all good, enjoy the forum, its what you make of it. I truly love it and the peeps here. :metal :tup
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I will not resort to just trolling when things seem hopeless for those who still enjoying liking DT.
I mean, I get you, but everyone here is enjoying and liking DT. We just get more caught up in the inside baseball and analysis, and we've been in the fandom for so long that we can discuss changes we have observed over a long period of time, without giving the backstory of the history of our thoughts and opinions to each other, because we know those thoughts and opinions. I know what everyone here thought about every tour after ADTOE because I was literally here discussing these tours with them, and some of these guys go 10+ years beyond that. We all share that place of awareness that Dream Theater is a great band in history because we're here on a DT-related forum 20, 15, 10 years later discussing them. If you're just coming in here, you'll read those stories of how much we really love Dream Theater when we get sappy, just not every day and in every discussion :heart
I agree with this post a lot. :)
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I think the darkest eras of this forum were mine portnoy getting Tom DeLonged and the astonishing :D
Did those last long, I doubt it
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I think the darkest eras of this forum were mine portnoy getting Tom DeLonged and the astonishing :D
Did those last long, I doubt it
I'm not 1000% sure what that means, but it got a laugh out loud nonetheless.
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Well well... It looks as if someone has taken over my job here :lol :rollin
Thanks, actually. It was becoming a bit of a chore.
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Confidentially, I just saw this posted online:
DREAM THEATER's JAMES LABRIE Blasts Singers Who Lip Sync, Says Backing Tracks Are 'Acceptable' When Used 'Creatively'
https://blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theaters-james-labrie-blasts-singers-who-lip-sync-says-backing-tracks-are-acceptable-when-used-creatively#lnga7lm7c7iaeufz9l%0A
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I think the darkest eras of this forum were mine portnoy getting Tom DeLonged and the astonishing :D
Did those last long, I doubt it
I'm not 1000% sure what that means, but it got a laugh out loud nonetheless.
I remember a lot of people being pretty happy when Mike left. I do think it was misguided, a lot of fans were just blaming Mike for what they perceived to be a dip in quality of the band, and MP was an easy target since he was always putting himself out there. In retrospect it's a bit silly. But I remember MP one thing back in the band shortly after leaving and I cannot imagine what would have happened to the fandom if they had really let him back in because a lot of people were really excited to see how the band would grow out from under MP's thumb.
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I think the darkest eras of this forum were mine portnoy getting Tom DeLonged and the astonishing :D
Did those last long, I doubt it
I'm not 1000% sure what that means, but it got a laugh out loud nonetheless.
I remember a lot of people being pretty happy when Mike left. I do think it was misguided, a lot of fans were just blaming Mike for what they perceived to be a dip in quality of the band, and MP was an easy target since he was always putting himself out there. In retrospect it's a bit silly. But I remember MP one thing back in the band shortly after leaving and I cannot imagine what would have happened to the fandom if they had really let him back in because a lot of people were really excited to see how the band would grow out from under MP's thumb.
I was definitely one of those people that thought it was a good move for the band to go without him. I wasn’t a big fan of SC and BC&SL (at the time) and like you said, I blamed Mike. I felt ADTOE was a return to form, and I thought the band was headed in a better direction. Looking back now, there is something missing since he’s been gone. I’ve mentioned before that it took several albums for me to notice it. Portnoy was constantly pushing to try new things and find inspiration in other places. It started to cause some unbalanced albums. The last three with him were “peaks and valleys” types but man were the peaks fucking huge!
As for the last part, I think the vast majority of fans, outside of this forum, would have welcomed Portnoy back at any time. And still would. All over Facebook , YouTube and Reddit you still see all of the “bring back MP” or “the good ol’ days with MP” comments abound.
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I think the darkest eras of this forum were mine portnoy getting Tom DeLonged and the astonishing :D
Did those last long, I doubt it
I'm not 1000% sure what that means, but it got a laugh out loud nonetheless.
I remember a lot of people being pretty happy when Mike left. I do think it was misguided, a lot of fans were just blaming Mike for what they perceived to be a dip in quality of the band, and MP was an easy target since he was always putting himself out there. In retrospect it's a bit silly. But I remember MP one thing back in the band shortly after leaving and I cannot imagine what would have happened to the fandom if they had really let him back in because a lot of people were really excited to see how the band would grow out from under MP's thumb.
I was definitely one of those people that thought it was a good move for the band to go without him. I wasn’t a big fan of SC and BC&SL (at the time) and like you said, I blamed Mike. I felt ADTOE was a return to form, and I thought the band was headed in a better direction. Looking back now, there is something missing since he’s been gone. I’ve mentioned before that it took several albums for me to notice it. Portnoy was constantly pushing to try new things and find inspiration in other places. It started to cause some unbalanced albums. The last three with him were “peaks and valleys” types but man were the peaks fucking huge!
As for the last part, I think the vast majority of fans, outside of this forum, would have welcomed Portnoy back at any time. And still would. All over Facebook , YouTube and Reddit you still see all of the “bring back MP” or “the good ol’ days with MP” comments abound.
Was The Astonishing period really that dark? Divisive, sure. But for me that hated the album, the only thing dark was that I started to ponder if I'd still be a fan if they did another album like that.
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After hearing The Gift of Music, The Astonishing was the first album since becoming a fan in 2000 that I didn’t buy on release day. It was probably a month after it came out that I heard the whole thing. It took multiple listens to get through.
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After hearing The Gift of Music, The Astonishing was the first album since becoming a fan in 2000 that I didn’t buy on release day. It was probably a month after it came out that I heard the whole thing. It took multiple listens to get through.
Huh..
I feel like The Gift Of Music perfectly encapsulates what Dream Theater is in 4 minutes.
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After hearing The Gift of Music, The Astonishing was the first album since becoming a fan in 2000 that I didn’t buy on release day. It was probably a month after it came out that I heard the whole thing. It took multiple listens to get through.
Huh..
I feel like The Gift Of Music perfectly encapsulates what Dream Theater is in 4 minutes.
It’s okay. By then I was burnt out on the self-titled album, and when I heard The Gift of Music, it just sounded like more of the same. And all of the storyline stuff that was coming out online seemed so cheesy and unoriginal. There was nothing appealing about it and I only went and bought it out of loyalty.
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After hearing The Gift of Music, The Astonishing was the first album since becoming a fan in 2000 that I didn’t buy on release day. It was probably a month after it came out that I heard the whole thing. It took multiple listens to get through.
Huh..
I feel like The Gift Of Music perfectly encapsulates what Dream Theater is in 4 minutes.
It’s okay. By then I was burnt out on the self-titled album, and when I heard The Gift of Music, it just sounded like more of the same. And all of the storyline stuff that was coming out online seemed so cheesy and unoriginal. There was nothing appealing about it and I only went and bought it out of loyalty.
I found The Gift Of Music on its own remarkably refreshing after DT12. The story is cheesy but it didn't bother me too much. There's a lot to chew on, even too much to chew on, with The Astonishing.
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After hearing The Gift of Music, The Astonishing was the first album since becoming a fan in 2000 that I didn’t buy on release day. It was probably a month after it came out that I heard the whole thing. It took multiple listens to get through.
Huh..
I feel like The Gift Of Music perfectly encapsulates what Dream Theater is in 4 minutes.
It’s okay. By then I was burnt out on the self-titled album, and when I heard The Gift of Music, it just sounded like more of the same. And all of the storyline stuff that was coming out online seemed so cheesy and unoriginal. There was nothing appealing about it and I only went and bought it out of loyalty.
I found The Gift Of Music on its own remarkably refreshing after DT12. The story is cheesy but it didn't bother me too much. There's a lot to chew on, even too much to chew on, with The Astonishing.
I’m glad you liked it. Different strokes.
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The Gift of Music is one of my favorites from the Mangini era. I love it when that choir bursts in at the end.
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I think the darkest eras of this forum were mine portnoy getting Tom DeLonged and the astonishing :D
Did those last long, I doubt it
I'm not 1000% sure what that means, but it got a laugh out loud nonetheless.
I remember a lot of people being pretty happy when Mike left. I do think it was misguided, a lot of fans were just blaming Mike for what they perceived to be a dip in quality of the band, and MP was an easy target since he was always putting himself out there. In retrospect it's a bit silly. But I remember MP one thing back in the band shortly after leaving and I cannot imagine what would have happened to the fandom if they had really let him back in because a lot of people were really excited to see how the band would grow out from under MP's thumb.
I was definitely one of those people that thought it was a good move for the band to go without him. I wasn’t a big fan of SC and BC&SL (at the time) and like you said, I blamed Mike. I felt ADTOE was a return to form, and I thought the band was headed in a better direction. Looking back now, there is something missing since he’s been gone. I’ve mentioned before that it took several albums for me to notice it. Portnoy was constantly pushing to try new things and find inspiration in other places. It started to cause some unbalanced albums. The last three with him were “peaks and valleys” types but man were the peaks fucking huge!
As for the last part, I think the vast majority of fans, outside of this forum, would have welcomed Portnoy back at any time. And still would. All over Facebook , YouTube and Reddit you still see all of the “bring back MP” or “the good ol’ days with MP” comments abound.
I think the something missing is a voice that has equal weight in the songwriting discussion - for better or for worse. Mangini obviously does not have the pull that MP did to sway the songwriting or the production.
One thing to consider is the effect that time has on emotions and opinions. A lot of people were very unhappy about the last MP albums (and yes, a lot of people were fine or happy with them) but over a decade has passed and now those feelings have softened or been forgotten. Passions have moderated and nostalgia has crept in. But how good were the last 3 MP albums, really? You state you weren't a fan of the last 2 and blamed MP. I quite agree with you here. But do you think the recent MM albums were worse?
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About gift of music, after the first wedding days with the astonishing at the release, when my optimism went down as I removed songs to the playlist until none remained...
I listened to gift of music yesterday and it's so suspect to hear JLB singing closer to SFAM range than what it really was around DT12...I feel tricked.
On the other hand they did an image&word tour which was a bet less risky than play peekaboo with a bull's balls...
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Confidentially, I just saw this posted online:
DREAM THEATER's JAMES LABRIE Blasts Singers Who Lip Sync, Says Backing Tracks Are 'Acceptable' When Used 'Creatively'
https://blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theaters-james-labrie-blasts-singers-who-lip-sync-says-backing-tracks-are-acceptable-when-used-creatively#lnga7lm7c7iaeufz9l%0A
He's not wrong, i kind of agree with him. Do i prefer bands that use backing tracks? No.
Also, there's no doubt in my mind that for the BITS section he was singing along to the backing track but at a very low volume - before being called out about it and his lower octave singing became present in the mix.
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I think the darkest eras of this forum were mine portnoy getting Tom DeLonged and the astonishing :D
Did those last long, I doubt it
I'm not 1000% sure what that means, but it got a laugh out loud nonetheless.
I remember a lot of people being pretty happy when Mike left. I do think it was misguided, a lot of fans were just blaming Mike for what they perceived to be a dip in quality of the band, and MP was an easy target since he was always putting himself out there. In retrospect it's a bit silly. But I remember MP one thing back in the band shortly after leaving and I cannot imagine what would have happened to the fandom if they had really let him back in because a lot of people were really excited to see how the band would grow out from under MP's thumb.
I was definitely one of those people that thought it was a good move for the band to go without him. I wasn’t a big fan of SC and BC&SL (at the time) and like you said, I blamed Mike. I felt ADTOE was a return to form, and I thought the band was headed in a better direction. Looking back now, there is something missing since he’s been gone. I’ve mentioned before that it took several albums for me to notice it. Portnoy was constantly pushing to try new things and find inspiration in other places. It started to cause some unbalanced albums. The last three with him were “peaks and valleys” types but man were the peaks fucking huge!
As for the last part, I think the vast majority of fans, outside of this forum, would have welcomed Portnoy back at any time. And still would. All over Facebook , YouTube and Reddit you still see all of the “bring back MP” or “the good ol’ days with MP” comments abound.
I think the something missing is a voice that has equal weight in the songwriting discussion - for better or for worse. Mangini obviously does not have the pull that MP did to sway the songwriting or the production.
One thing to consider is the effect that time has on emotions and opinions. A lot of people were very unhappy about the last MP albums (and yes, a lot of people were fine or happy with them) but over a decade has passed and now those feelings have softened or been forgotten. Passions have moderated and nostalgia has crept in. But how good were the last 3 MP albums, really? You state you weren't a fan of the last 2 and blamed MP. I quite agree with you here. But do you think the recent MM albums were worse?
I know I do. Maybe "worse" isn't the word; maybe "on par" is the word. I never thought SC or BC&SL sucked. They weren't SFAM or 8V (I thing TOT is on the same level as SC and BC&SL, maybe even a half step below), but then again what was? U2 has been chasing the JT and AB! for decades, but that doesn't mean every thing after "sucks".
I do think that while they are still very good, while they still make music I want to hear, while I still want to see them live, they are not the same band as when Mike P. was there. They lost a bit of je nais se quoi that hasn't returned as of yet.
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Man, Stadler makes a great point there.
It's very rare that a band delivers a sustained run of masterpieces. For the vast majority of fans, U2's best days are way in the rearviewmirror. Many on this board feel Metallica is decades removed from their last 'great' release.
For THIS music fan, what sets DT apart from so many other bands I enjoy is the fact they legitimately released seven albums in a row where each and every release left me breathless.
I&W through 8VM is a run of music that is nearly unparalleled for me.
It's the reason I'm still spinning each new release and attending shows, even though I feel the last seven releases are, for lack of a better term, a step below their best work.
Nothing wrong with that!
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I think the darkest eras of this forum were mine portnoy getting Tom DeLonged and the astonishing :D
Did those last long, I doubt it
I'm not 1000% sure what that means, but it got a laugh out loud nonetheless.
I remember a lot of people being pretty happy when Mike left. I do think it was misguided, a lot of fans were just blaming Mike for what they perceived to be a dip in quality of the band, and MP was an easy target since he was always putting himself out there. In retrospect it's a bit silly. But I remember MP one thing back in the band shortly after leaving and I cannot imagine what would have happened to the fandom if they had really let him back in because a lot of people were really excited to see how the band would grow out from under MP's thumb.
I was definitely one of those people that thought it was a good move for the band to go without him. I wasn’t a big fan of SC and BC&SL (at the time) and like you said, I blamed Mike. I felt ADTOE was a return to form, and I thought the band was headed in a better direction. Looking back now, there is something missing since he’s been gone. I’ve mentioned before that it took several albums for me to notice it. Portnoy was constantly pushing to try new things and find inspiration in other places. It started to cause some unbalanced albums. The last three with him were “peaks and valleys” types but man were the peaks fucking huge!
As for the last part, I think the vast majority of fans, outside of this forum, would have welcomed Portnoy back at any time. And still would. All over Facebook , YouTube and Reddit you still see all of the “bring back MP” or “the good ol’ days with MP” comments abound.
I think the something missing is a voice that has equal weight in the songwriting discussion - for better or for worse. Mangini obviously does not have the pull that MP did to sway the songwriting or the production.
One thing to consider is the effect that time has on emotions and opinions. A lot of people were very unhappy about the last MP albums (and yes, a lot of people were fine or happy with them) but over a decade has passed and now those feelings have softened or been forgotten. Passions have moderated and nostalgia has crept in. But how good were the last 3 MP albums, really? You state you weren't a fan of the last 2 and blamed MP. I quite agree with you here. But do you think the recent MM albums were worse?
I know I do. Maybe "worse" isn't the word; maybe "on par" is the word. I never thought SC or BC&SL sucked. They weren't SFAM or 8V (I thing TOT is on the same level as SC and BC&SL, maybe even a half step below), but then again what was? U2 has been chasing the JT and AB! for decades, but that doesn't mean every thing after "sucks".
I do think that while they are still very good, while they still make music I want to hear, while I still want to see them live, they are not the same band as when Mike P. was there. They lost a bit of je nais se quoi that hasn't returned as of yet.
I think this is a good explanation.
And BarstoolWarrior…what I mean is that the last couple with MP albums had their ups and downs, the Mangini albums are mostly…boring.
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I'm kind of of up and down on Systematic Chaos, but all of the Mangini albums are better than Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
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I'm kind of of up and down on Systematic Chaos, but all of the Mangini albums are better than Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
I personally like BC&SL better than The Astonishing.
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Neither SC or BCSL are faves of mine, but I can say that I like them a lot more now than when they came out.
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I've always liked SC a lot, despite a significant chunk of the album not doing it for me (Repentence, Prophets, Ministry). BCSL is way down the list, although still having some really cool material as well. But I would probably put every single Mangini-era album above both of them.
But what does that have to do with James' interview comments about his singing?
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But what does that have to do with James' interview comments about his singing?
No idea. We came to a fork in the road, and went the wrong way :lol
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But what does that have to do with James' interview comments about his singing?
No idea. We came to a fork in the road, and went the wrong way :lol
You might say, 'we crossed the crooked step' :rollin
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But what does that have to do with James' interview comments about his singing?
No idea. We came to a fork in the road, and went the wrong way :lol
You might say, 'we crossed the crooked step' :rollin
You might say this thread took a dramatic turn. But I bet if we keep going long enough it will eventually come full circle.
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I'm kind of of up and down on Systematic Chaos, but all of the Mangini albums are better than Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
noooo
the count and nightmare alone make it better than most of them!
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I also agree on BC&SL, i consider it one of the worst DT albums, especially in terms of lyrics.
On topic though, it's a great showcase for James, and the bonus disc with the covers has some excellent singing.
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the covers bonus disc indeed rules
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Like the album proper, the covers disc has got some good stuff and some stuff I am not interested in very much.
I definitely put Black Clouds in my bottom 3. But the thing is, at least for me, the margin between albums is very, very small. A "bottom 3" DT album for me still has some pretty spectacular music. To compare Black Clouds with an album I rank several spots higher, for example, I would say that, minute-for-minute, Black Clouds has probably about the same amount of music I really enjoy as Images & Words (as well as about the same amount of music that I don't really care for). Two things give Images a distinct edge for me: (1) the peaks are generally just higher; and (2) when it comes to the songs themselves, there's nothing in any of the songs on Images that makes me say, "I really love MOST of this song, but this one thing right here feels out of place and distracts me every time I hear it." Black Clouds has that latter factor. Even on a song as nearly-perfect as Nightmare, there's that one little bit that is really distracting to me. The Astonishing is the only other album that has that for me. In every other case, I can just take a song and either like it or don't like it. But those two albums have a few spots that are very frustrating because I am otherwise really enjoying myself, but then find myself taken out of the moment by something really distracting.
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The Astonishing is the only other album that has that for me.
It's the "music player" section, isn't it? It gets me every time :lol
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I'm kind of of up and down on Systematic Chaos, but all of the Mangini albums are better than Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
noooo
the count and nightmare alone make it better than most of them!
They certainly do NOT.
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The Astonishing is the only other album that has that for me.
It's the "music player" section, isn't it? It gets me every time :lol
What? ??? No, of course not. That part is amazing. Why would you say that?
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Omg people, I LOVE Black Clouds. 🖤 Top 3 for me!
But to each their own!
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the cover disc was the better one, so yeah BCSL is bottom 4 on my list
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the cover disc was the better one
Agreed.
The only album I have ranked lower than BC&SL is WDADU.
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Black Clouds has a lot of songs I really want to like but are held back for one reason or another:
A Nightmare to Remember: I hate Portnoy's DAY AFTER DAY section. I normally can tolerate his vocals but he really should have stayed behind the drum kit for this one. It completely ruins the studio version of this song. I exclusively listen to the Berlin 2019 version, I love James's wicked scream.
Rite of Passage: Cool lyrics and concept but just drags on too long. It seems like they were trying to make it this album's As I am/Panic Attack/Constant Motion but it's just not nearly as catchy or engaging as any of those songs.
Wither: I actually dig this song and think it's a pretty nice ballad.
The Shattered Fortress: Weak lyrics ("I AM RESPONSIBLE!!!" just makes me cringe every time) and borrows way too much from other songs in the suite. The fact that it ends with The Glass Prison's intro riff also makes no sense. The entire suite is about Portnoy's evolution from alcoholism to sobriety, so why TF would it end with the same notes it began with??
The Best of Times: Again, weak lyrics. I get that it's a very heartfelt message from Portnoy to his dad but some of it is just a bit too on the nose for me. Petrucci's guitar solo is incredible though. Thank god they didn't let Portnoy sing this one at least.
The Count of Tuscany: 10/10, I love this song and think it's perfect as is. The cheesy lyrics actually really fit the B-movie horror vibes of the song. One of my favorite things they've ever done.
Labrie slays Stargazer and To Tame a Land on the bonus disk. I don't really know any of the other songs (besides Larks but that's an instrumental) so I haven't bothered to listen to them.
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I don't know of he slays To Tame A Land. I wished they had rerecorded the vocals during those sessions.
But he does indeed slay Stargazer....and the Queen tracks and TYFFMH.
I wish they let him sing like that on the album proper. They really cage him in in the studio.
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A Nightmare to Remember: I hate Portnoy's DAY AFTER DAY section. I normally can tolerate his vocals but he really should have stayed behind the drum kit for this one. It completely ruins the studio version of this song. I exclusively listen to the Berlin 2019 version, I love James's wicked scream.
Not to mention the blast beat section that is completely unnecessary and out of place AND the fact the song drags on forever....song should've ended around the 13-14 minute mark....those last couple minutes are just filler BS that do nothing but bloat the song.
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Nah, the song is just about perfect in every way. Other than the "rrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!111!!," there isn't a thing I would change about it.
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The song for me works just fine up until the end of the Beautiful Agony section. Then it kinda goes off in weird ways (roahr included). An external producer could have suggested both a way to work around the possible ways to get to that part, and also how to organize better the second half of the song.
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it's beautiful and i love it
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I've never had any problem with Portnoy's vocals on ANTR, I just wish the song had a big final movement instead of just meandering to a finish. I have similar feelings about the ending of Pale Blue Dot.
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I'm a fairly big fan of BC&SL. It ranks somewhere in the midle of the pack for me, but I really enjoyed it on release and it still sits fairly well to my ears. The bonus disc is really good as well, but it certainly isn't better than the original music. DT have always done really good covers IMO.
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The bonus disc is really good as well, but it certainly isn't better than the original music. DT have always done really good covers IMO.
Agreed.
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nothing to see. wrong thread. 🌚
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:iknow:
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I don't buy James' excuse. He is pitchy as all hell singing in the middle of his range. You can hear this in all the newer songs too.
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^agreed that it is not strictly a range problem
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I don't buy James' excuse. He is pitchy as all hell singing in the middle of his range. You can hear this in all the newer songs too.
^agreed that it is not strictly a range problem
It's not just range. I've spent a fair amount of time here defending him in the past, but there's a point where you just have to call it. It's his entire technique.
Registration (issues with blending head and chest registers for a seamless transition), issues with breath support (getting "off the breath" and singing in his throat/nose), a high larynx (related to the other aforementioned issues because when those technical basics are in place the larynx can't pop up) which causes a "pinched" sound and prevents facility throughout the range; sytlistic choices that have caused bad singing habits (the sneery Nafaryus tone needs to go, it's not cute outside of The Astonishing), I could go on, but what I've noticed is that when he isn't messing around with character voices and over the top improv, the technique - and with it the voice - is still there.
All of this tells me that it's been too long since he's worked with a teacher. Especially as the body changes, the technique needs to be re-solidified and sometimes entirely reworked in order to get the best optimal performance out of the voice for a lifetime. I trust that he's a smart singer and he knows all of this, he just needs to go and do it. All the tea and breathing treatments in the world won't help him if his technique is a mess. That's like patching the roof on a building that has cracks in the foundation.
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I don't buy James' excuse. He is pitchy as all hell singing in the middle of his range. You can hear this in all the newer songs too.
^agreed that it is not strictly a range problem
It's not just range. I've spent a fair amount of time here defending him in the past, but there's a point where you just have to call it. It's his entire technique.
Registration (issues with blending head and chest registers for a seamless transition), issues with breath support (getting "off the breath" and singing in his throat/nose), a high larynx (related to the other aforementioned issues because when those technical basics are in place the larynx can't pop up) which causes a "pinched" sound and prevents facility throughout the range; sytlistic choices that have caused bad singing habits (the sneery Nafaryus tone needs to go, it's not cute outside of The Astonishing), I could go on, but what I've noticed is that when he isn't messing around with character voices and over the top improv, the technique - and with it the voice - is still there.
All of this tells me that it's been too long since he's worked with a teacher. Especially as the body changes, the technique needs to be re-solidified and sometimes entirely reworked in order to get the best optimal performance out of the voice for a lifetime. I trust that he's a smart singer and he knows all of this, he just needs to go and do it. All the tea and breathing treatments in the world won't help him if his technique is a mess. That's like patching the roof on a building that has cracks in the foundation.
Very valid points. Seems like a continuation of bad habits / technique that has seen him in a downward trajectory ever since the Astonishing tour.
Hopefully he will try to review and come up with some improvements that could help sustain his performance.
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It's not just range. I've spent a fair amount of time here defending him in the past, but there's a point where you just have to call it. It's his entire technique.
Registration (issues with blending head and chest registers for a seamless transition), issues with breath support (getting "off the breath" and singing in his throat/nose), a high larynx (related to the other aforementioned issues because when those technical basics are in place the larynx can't pop up) which causes a "pinched" sound and prevents facility throughout the range; sytlistic choices that have caused bad singing habits (the sneery Nafaryus tone needs to go, it's not cute outside of The Astonishing), I could go on, but what I've noticed is that when he isn't messing around with character voices and over the top improv, the technique - and with it the voice - is still there.
All of this tells me that it's been too long since he's worked with a teacher. Especially as the body changes, the technique needs to be re-solidified and sometimes entirely reworked in order to get the best optimal performance out of the voice for a lifetime. I trust that he's a smart singer and he knows all of this, he just needs to go and do it. All the tea and breathing treatments in the world won't help him if his technique is a mess. That's like patching the roof on a building that has cracks in the foundation.
I love this post and I don't even need to agree with it. I love it because it's respectful, informed (I'm sure the author is at the very least formally trained singer, most probably a coach), and exhudes admiration and concern rather than entitled disdain.
Seriously, thank you crystalstars.
If I can hypotesise with you (I can't do much more without having the man himself in my studio in front of my piano for at least half an hour), and add to your very valid points, we're talking about a technique (or lack of) that was easy to predict as unsustainable once reaching the age of tissues decadence, right from the start. James has never really sung with his larynx down and he has always preferred to negotiate mezzavoce passages with air (THE voice killer) rather than covering with upper space (please forgive my wording liberties, but I'm on my third language here) and extreme inclination. Furthermore, whenever I've watched him live, I never noticed much abdominal movement, no splat nor hooking, while it was easy to spot the quite high and quick breathing which can be associated to constat belting (the second voice killer). That's a very powerful style in your 20's, but it's a kind of deal with the devil, and I suspect the food poisoning incident just came before and in place of an inevitable breakdown.
I agree on your pitch analysis and I dare to bring on the table a distinct lack of palatine veil's muscular tone (when flat, but I never heard him go sharp) and I strongly and respectfully concur he needs to rethink his technique, and he's possibly 20 years late. Problem his you need rest and time to do that, not tour cycles, even if not extremely intensive. I've been singing in correct opera style four days a week for twenty years and I still needed more than a year to fully recover my instrument once the ventilators focked my throat up, just imagine how difficult must it be for a rock star constantly living on a high stress high stakes schedule.
He needs to put in the work, and I'm sure he does, but I believe he really should be given proper time.
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Seriously, thank you crystalstars.
You're very welcome and thank you for your knowledgeable analysis also!
I love James, he is my favorite singer and I have nothing but the utmost respect for him and hope that he will pull through these current struggles and come out shining. 🌟
That's a very powerful style in your 20's, but it's a kind of deal with the devil, and I suspect the food poisoning incident just came before and in place of an inevitable breakdown.
I have always theorized that the injury was something that was just waiting to happen, and that the sickness incident was just a catalyst to make it happen sooner. But I believe with his pre-injury belting, constantly bringing weight up (all the way to the tippity-top!) from the bottom, the raspy effects (again, all the way up there, ouch), among other things (some of which you mentioned) and a vocal hemorrhage was just waiting for him on the horizon. The way he was singing at that time was in no way appropriate for a light lyric tenor (or for anyone) and not sustainable long-term.
I think if he could go back to the way he was singing around Score, which is when I feel he was really at the top of his game as a singer, it would be good for him. I know he has always leaned toward more of a CCM, rather than classical (my background, and from your post I surmise yours too) method, which I can't speak to as much, and he's slipped more and more into CCM in recent years which has only been detrimental, but with that said it could be serendipitous for him that the band may be concentrating more on the older material from the Octavarium era, which could serve to help bring back some healthier habits through muscle memory if nothing else.
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As a guy who a long time ago took singing lessons, I wish I would be so knowledgeable about singing tecniques :lol I understand half of what you're talking about and I wish I would (still) remember / know more.
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James is the biggest X factor moving forward. If he can gets things diagnosed and fixed, DT will have a nice finale to their career.
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Funny thing, as I'm reading this, I'm listening to Robert Plant and the Sensational Space Shifters live in LA back in 2016. And this is a man that was known for his ridiculous range, and almost as famous for LOSING his range. Well, I don't think he lost it; this is an hour or so of master class singing. Granted, it's not "Led Zeppelin!!!" but it's amazing, and when - during the last song of the main set, a medley with "Whole Lotta Love" in it, he goes for the gold, HE NAILS IT. Then in the encore - "Going To California" - it's a subdued performance for the most part, but Robert ad libs the outdo a bit and the voice starts to kick in a bit... but in EVERY CASE, even when stretching, when he goes for a note, he HITS it. This is a man that took care of his voice and uses it like the instrument it is.
I know I don't speak for every one, but for me, I don't really care if he can still hit the G#5 or whatever it is, but I do care that if he goes for a C3, he hits the damn C3. In Bridgeport, this last tour, I thought he was really good - not great though, because there was a stretch in the third song or so where he got really pitchy. I don't know if it's a volume thing, or a hearing thing, or a human flesh and blood thing, but I think I'd like to see that addressed in some fashion. The rest will take care of itself.
My humble opinion, only, and as I am not (yet) in the band or not (yet) their trusted advisor, I have no say in the matter.
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Awesome posts by both crystalstars and Indiscipline (didn't know you were a vocalist expert like crystalstars). It's good to know that the problem is with his technique and less to do with the limitations of growing older (although obviously those are still there). I just hope he does get the help that he needs to once again right the ship, much the same way the rest of the band pushed him to do so at the end of 2002. And if that means doing a bit of down-tuning or altering some of the insane vocal melodies, no problem.
I can't help but think of when Rush surprisingly resurrected the song Circumstances from the Hemispheres album in 2007 - a song where Geddy is singing in the stratosphere. Besides the band tuning down, he altered the vocal melody to something much more reasonable and the result was just as enjoyable. I was happy to be able to see it live, something that wouldn't have happened (or would have been a disaster if it had) if they would've insisted on sticking to the way it was on the album.
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Funny thing, as I'm reading this, I'm listening to Robert Plant and the Sensational Space Shifters live in LA back in 2016. And this is a man that was known for his ridiculous range, and almost as famous for LOSING his range. Well, I don't think he lost it; this is an hour or so of master class singing. Granted, it's not "Led Zeppelin!!!" but it's amazing, and when - during the last song of the main set, a medley with "Whole Lotta Love" in it, he goes for the gold, HE NAILS IT. Then in the encore - "Going To California" - it's a subdued performance for the most part, but Robert ad libs the outdo a bit and the voice starts to kick in a bit... but in EVERY CASE, even when stretching, when he goes for a note, he HITS it. This is a man that took care of his voice and uses it like the instrument it is.
Agreed with all of this. Plant is a master.
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What I don’t quite get with James is he’s studied with several (purportedly) reputable vocal coaches in the past. Not sure why he would have stopped doing that, especially if age was catching up with him.
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What I don’t quite get with James is he’s studied with several (purportedly) reputable vocal coaches in the past. Not sure why he would have stopped doing that, especially if age was catching up with him.
His food poisoning ruptured vocal chord injury was a shame. I know, through interviews in the past, he did get help from his mentors to recover and strengthen his chords again but that injury was brutal. All considered, he did very well since that incident. Now with age and strenuous and demanding touring its taken its toll.
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Do we know for a fact that he is not being coached by anyone presently?
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Do we know for a fact that he is not being coached by anyone presently?
I don't know one way or the other, just responding to the implication that he wasn't. All I know is that he was for some time so it would seem weird for him to have these problems, but I imagine vocal coaching is more art than science with a million different opinions and beliefs on what is the right way to do things.
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His food poisoning ruptured vocal chord injury was a shame. I know, through interviews in the past, he did get help from his mentors to recover and strengthen his chords again but that injury was brutal.
In the alternate universe I wonder how things would have played out if he continued to sing like he did in the years leading up to the injury. There is no way that was sustainable.
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Awesome posts by both crystalstars and Indiscipline (didn't know you were a vocalist expert like crystalstars). It's good to know that the problem is with his technique and less to do with the limitations of growing older (although obviously those are still there). I just hope he does get the help that he needs to once again right the ship, much the same way the rest of the band pushed him to do so at the end of 2002. And if that means doing a bit of down-tuning or altering some of the insane vocal melodies, no problem.
I can't help but think of when Rush surprisingly resurrected the song Circumstances from the Hemispheres album in 2007 - a song where Geddy is singing in the stratosphere. Besides the band tuning down, he altered the vocal melody to something much more reasonable and the result was just as enjoyable. I was happy to be able to see it live, something that wouldn't have happened (or would have been a disaster if it had) if they would've insisted on sticking to the way it was on the album.
Some of this is psychological with the audience too, in the sense that, our brains look for patterns, look for familiarity, look for synchronicity. Paul Stanley was using alternative melodies for songs all the way back to the early 80's; there's a really good video from one of the last first-era makeup shows, in Sydney Australia, and he sings an alternate melody in the verse of Detroit Rock City (I don't believe it was driven by vocal limitations, since a) his voice was still VERY strong then, and b) the alternate melody is probably harder to sing) but after two repetitions, one's ear gets it. It's "normal" so to speak. When vocalists hit clams - think of the live Fountain of Salmacis on the UK version of Genesis' Three Sides Live - your ear notices it. So when James does go out of pitch it stands out way more than any altered melody will. I'm sure some "fan" (in quotes for a reason) will gripe about not hitting the F#5 or something, but 95% of us will take the performance for what it is, and celebrate how he can still hit the notes he's being asked to hit.
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Awesome posts by both crystalstars and Indiscipline (didn't know you were a vocalist expert like crystalstars). It's good to know that the problem is with his technique and less to do with the limitations of growing older (although obviously those are still there). I just hope he does get the help that he needs to once again right the ship, much the same way the rest of the band pushed him to do so at the end of 2002. And if that means doing a bit of down-tuning or altering some of the insane vocal melodies, no problem.
I can't help but think of when Rush surprisingly resurrected the song Circumstances from the Hemispheres album in 2007 - a song where Geddy is singing in the stratosphere. Besides the band tuning down, he altered the vocal melody to something much more reasonable and the result was just as enjoyable. I was happy to be able to see it live, something that wouldn't have happened (or would have been a disaster if it had) if they would've insisted on sticking to the way it was on the album.
Some of this is psychological with the audience too, in the sense that, our brains look for patterns, look for familiarity, look for synchronicity. Paul Stanley was using alternative melodies for songs all the way back to the early 80's; there's a really good video from one of the last first-era makeup shows, in Sydney Australia, and he sings an alternate melody in the verse of Detroit Rock City (I don't believe it was driven by vocal limitations, since a) his voice was still VERY strong then, and b) the alternate melody is probably harder to sing) but after two repetitions, one's ear gets it. It's "normal" so to speak. When vocalists hit clams - think of the live Fountain of Salmacis on the UK version of Genesis' Three Sides Live - your ear notices it. So when James does go out of pitch it stands out way more than any altered melody will. I'm sure some "fan" (in quotes for a reason) will gripe about not hitting the F#5 or something, but 95% of us will take the performance for what it is, and celebrate how he can still hit the notes he's being asked to hit.
Phil has vocal clams? Really? :D
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I always preferred the live version of Fountain of Salmacis on 3SL to the studio version, mainly because of how poor the production on Nursery Cryme is. I never really noticed off notes by Phil on that track. To be honest, I prefer the live version of almost any Genesis track to the studio version. Just listen to the double drumming on the Seconds Out Firth of Fifth solo and tell me it's not incredible. Anyways...
"AWAY FROM ME COLD-BLOODED WOMAN, YOUR THIRST IS NOT MIIIIIIIIIIIIIINEEEEE"
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I always preferred the live version of Fountain of Salmacis on 3SL to the studio version, mainly because of how poor the production on Nursery Cryme is. I never really noticed off notes by Phil on that track. To be honest, I prefer the live version of almost any Genesis track to the studio version. Just listen to the double drumming on the Seconds Out Firth of Fifth solo and tell me it's not incredible. Anyways...
"AWAY FROM ME COLD-BLOODED WOMAN, YOUR THIRST IS NOT MIIIIIIIIIIIIIINEEEEE"
I don't know; maybe it's me, but I always LOVED Phil's live vocals. They always seemed so... authentic and real to me. I know that's an odd word to use when talking about live vocals, especially in the 70s and early 80s, but it's the word that fits the best.
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It's good to know that the problem is with his technique and less to do with the limitations of growing older
It's both, but it's definitely not "just age" as many suspect. As a singer gets older they need to be keeping up with the changes in the body by constantly adjusting their technique.
Do we know for a fact that he is not being coached by anyone presently?
We don't. I don't know him personally. It's speculation based on what I am hearing live (and in live recordings) these days with a trained ear.
All I know is that he was for some time so it would seem weird for him to have these problems
Without at least a "checkup" on a regular basis with a second set of ears, bad habits can creep in. Especially as the voice changes with age, illness, injury/scar tissue, too much belting, years of touring, etc taking their toll, all the more does even the best professional who has built a solidly reliable technique need to check in with a good technician once in a while. Think of it as a tuneup. It's just necessary maintenance.
I agree on your pitch analysis and I dare to bring on the table a distinct lack of palatine veil's muscular tone (when flat, but I never heard him go sharp) and I strongly and respectfully concur he needs to rethink his technique, and he's possibly 20 years late.
Very possibly. I agree about the palate. I also think he has some issues with vowels, and spreading. This is a trifecta of bad habits that can bring down the best technique over time.
I don't think all of these habits are entirely new, either. As early as the early 2000's you can hear him scooping up to a higher note with an audible "wah" syllable before the word. This tells me it's a long-standing issue with approach to the note that has worsened, perhaps because (speculation alert) it has not been addressed. You can hear this as early as Chaos in Motion but it's at its worst when it becomes a full on "yyyah" when attempting the F# in Learning to Live on the recent I&W anniversary tour.
Problem his you need rest and time to do that, not tour cycles, even if not extremely intensive.
He needs to put in the work, and I'm sure he does, but I believe he really should be given proper time.
And this is exactly what he never got. After the injury, he should've been on vocal rest, not on tour.
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One thing I'm curious about is those cameo videos (and apologies if those have been dissected here previously).
It seems like the pitchiness isn't a problem in those (at the expense of a more "rubato" tempo, which is a perk of singing alone). Are James' bad habits perceptible in those?
As a non-expert, it feels like a bit of a night and day contrast between those videos where he hits the notes in his living room and live recordings of the most problematic moments (where not only is pitch an issue, but at some points his voice feels "weak", which I really don't know whether it's just a vocal issue or a live mixing issue, with EQ/compression either being applied poorly or not at all for his voice to properly "face" the rest of the [much louder] instruments).
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One thing I'm curious about is those cameo videos (and apologies if those have been dissected here previously).
It seems like the pitchiness isn't a problem in those (at the expense of a more "rubato" tempo, which is a perk of singing alone). Are James' bad habits perceptible in those?
As a non-expert, it feels like a bit of a night and day contrast between those videos where he hits the notes in his living room and live recordings of the most problematic moments (where not only is pitch an issue, but at some points his voice feels "weak", which I really don't know whether it's just a vocal issue or a live mixing issue, with EQ/compression either being applied poorly or not at all for his voice to properly "face" the rest of the [much louder] instruments).
Good question and I look forward to crystalstars' and Indiscipline's responses, but from my non-expert viewpoint, it's much easier to do something as a one-off at your house that lasts at best a couple minutes in comparison to being on tour for over a month at a time, traveling from city to city and performing a 2 hour show (or more) several times a week. Touring will be a drain for anyone, but especially a 60 year old vocalist.
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One thing I'm curious about is those cameo videos (and apologies if those have been dissected here previously).
I'm no vocal expert, but the Cameo version of Endless Sacrifice on YouTube was from me purchasing that as a gift for a few of my DT buddies. FWIW, I thought he did a nice job on it ;D
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One thing I'm curious about is those cameo videos (and apologies if those have been dissected here previously).
Oh haha, my husband keeps threatening to get me one of these for Christmas :omg: :biggrin: I'm casually wondering if he'd sing a cover song, because there are two that I can think of (a Firewind song, and an another song originally sung by Michael Kiske) that I'd love to hear him sing, but I digress...
Are James' bad habits perceptible in those?
I haven't seen more than a few of them, but from what I've heard, yes. Lots of the same technical bugs (the scooping up to the higher note, the "wah" before a syllable) that often pop up in live settings for him, if not to the same extent.
I can't speak to the "live mixing issue" if there is one as that's outside of my knowledge, but maybe Indiscipline or someone else can address that. I do wonder whether he has a tendency when singing live to do more pushing than he does when in the studio. The Cameo videos may be more like the studio setting for him so they sound less pushed. You don't get the sort of screaming up to the high notes as you would in a live stage performance. Pushing will cause him to bring more weight up from the chest voice into the top causing an imbalance of registration and a constrained top. Add pushing for volume on top of that and it's a perfect storm. :facepalm:
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One thing I'm curious about is those cameo videos (and apologies if those have been dissected here previously).
Oh haha, my husband keeps threatening to get me one of these for Christmas :omg: :biggrin: I'm casually wondering if he'd sing a cover song, because there are two that I can think of (a Firewind song, and an another song originally sung by Michael Kiske) that I'd love to hear him sing, but I digress...
Are James' bad habits perceptible in those?
I haven't seen more than a few of them, but from what I've heard, yes. Lots of the same technical bugs (the scooping up to the higher note, the "wah" before a syllable) that often pop up in live settings for him, if not to the same extent.
I can't speak to the "live mixing issue" if there is one as that's outside of my knowledge, but maybe Indiscipline or someone else can address that. I do wonder whether he has a tendency when singing live to do more pushing than he does when in the studio. The Cameo videos may be more like the studio setting for him so they sound less pushed. You don't get the sort of screaming up to the high notes as you would in a live stage performance. Pushing will cause him to bring more weight up from the chest voice into the top causing an imbalance of registration and a constrained top. Add pushing for volume on top of that and it's a perfect storm. :facepalm:
Oh wow! That does make sense. In my informal singing explorations at home (where I try not to over exert myself, but probably isn't a good idea to do without taking classes), I can definitely relate to the difference between scooping up to notes and just managing to "hit it" from muscle memory.
I really wish he'd take this downtime in band activities to "re-center" himself technique wise (and for all I know he may be doing that). Having done the whole top 100 list thing for the band (and thus showing some choice cuts to my wife, who isn't familiar with the band and is digging a bunch of it), it became even clearer to me how James is the band's (not that) "secret" weapon. His pop sensibilities and vocal character really set DT apart from other groups in the same genre, which makes this whole live issues situation more painful to witness as a fan.
I got a bit of flack on another topic for saying I thought James was "delivering the goods" in the last Rock in Rio performance, but I do honestly think that was a good night for him. Not "perfect", but in general I thought his efforts blended in with the rest of the band. Taking a few samples from the Dreamsonic tour in particular, however, (I remember picking out a performance of Solitary Shell to check out), it got a little more complicated. Like a whole chorus off-key as soon as the notes got a little higher. Which isn't to say he isn't trying hard, what I'm learning with these insights from you and Indiscipline is that maybe he's trying too hard in a not-recommended direction.
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Good technique or bad, it's just easier to sound good on a single song, such as in those cameo videos. For one thing, it's shorter. As an amateur rock singer, I can fake my way through a single song any time and sound decent. Maybe I'm singing it mostly correctly. And maybe I'm using horrible technique to fake my way through it. Either way, I can sound pretty good for 4 minutes, even if I'm using bad technique, because the voice isn't going to tire out that quickly. When I got to join Y&T onstage several years ago, I got all kinds of compliments and had a few people telling me I "blew Jeff Scott Soto off the stage" (he came onstage as a guest after me), although I appreciated the compliments, I tried to remind people that I had the "easy" job of just doing one song. Again, I can fake my way through one song and sound good. That's WAY different than having to sing an entire set. So James sounding good on the cameo videos during the same timeframe that he may have struggled through some live shows is not surprising.
Second, it's a lot easier to hit the right notes when you can hear yourself so much clearer and aren't competing with other instruments, crowd noise, etc. So, again, not a surprise or a big mystery that he might be able to sound better in a cameo than in some live settings.
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Good technique or bad, it's just easier to sound good on a single song, such as in those cameo videos. For one thing, it's shorter. As an amateur rock singer, I can fake my way through a single song any time and sound decent. Maybe I'm singing it mostly correctly. And maybe I'm using horrible technique to fake my way through it. Either way, I can sound pretty good for 4 minutes, even if I'm using bad technique, because the voice isn't going to tire out that quickly. When I got to join Y&T onstage several years ago, I got all kinds of compliments and had a few people telling me I "blew Jeff Scott Soto off the stage" (he came onstage as a guest after me), although I appreciated the compliments, I tried to remind people that I had the "easy" job of just doing one song. Again, I can fake my way through one song and sound good. That's WAY different than having to sing an entire set. So James sounding good on the cameo videos during the same timeframe that he may have struggled through some live shows is not surprising.
Second, it's a lot easier to hit the right notes when you can hear yourself so much clearer and aren't competing with other instruments, crowd noise, etc. So, again, not a surprise or a big mystery that he might be able to sound better in a cameo than in some live settings.
Absolutely agree that the different settings influence things (but way to go singing onstage with Y&T!)
About the second point, however, it makes sense but in-ear monitors have come a long way. I haven't had the experience of being onstage with a pair, but from what I've heard from other musicians and singers the isolation seems to be the real deal (especially if they're the custom-fitted variety). It shouldn't be a problem for James to hear himself if he's using those, but if he's relying on stage monitors (as in speaker wedges at the front of the stage) that's a whole 'nother story (I'm only even mentioning in-ears because I remember reading years ago about DT switching to that type of monitoring, but I don't know if that applied to the whole band).
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Unless things have changed, they all use IEMs now. Just look at any photos of their stage - no wedges anywhere.
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Great posts by crystalstars and Indiscipline. It's nice to read some thoughts by people who actually understand vocal technique while appreciating James and seeing his technical issues at the same time. I'll just add my two cents.
James's technique was never perfect but which rock or metal vocalist's is? I think there are some additional reasons causing his decline to be more pronounced than that of many of his fellow singers. The chief one of them is the one that also made him such a great band mate - his nice and agreeable character. Watching all these early live videos, you get the feeling that he was like "just throw anything at me, super-high range, rasp, screams - sure, I can do it. And if I am not feeling well? Ok, I¨ll suck it up and power through."
He was probably never the type of guy to tell his mates: "Not feeling well, I am going to take it easy tonight." Or "my voice is shot, can we cancel the show"? It's just not how he is made up.
Later, watching the videos from Awake tour, you just have to marvel at his resilience - right after the injury when he should have been resting, he was still giving it his all. It was a make or break tour for the band and he was not the kind of guy to let them down. Even much later, watching Live Scenes, you still see how hard he was going - even though his voice was at 100 % that night, he still cranked out some really good performances.
And thanks to Jaime Vendera, James's vocal coach later down the road, we know that James would sometimes go as far as using cortisone injections for important gigs when he felt his voice could fail him otherwise (according to Vendera, cortisone will allow you to sing like your voice has been magically repaired, but it will also make you feel kind of invincible - you are at the risk of pushing way too hard, because you just do not feel the pain that would stop you from that).
Which brings me to the other point - vocal coaches. For all we know, James might have been working with a coach all these years till today and he could still have been easily ruining his voice. The only vocal approach that is tried and tested over long period of times is bel canto - and even many opera vocal coaches will still get it wrong every now and then, ruining their singer's voices by making lighter voices push too hard (Renata Tebaldi being a notable example), making large voices do the opposite or overusing some not-always-so-sound pieces of advice, like "sing to the mask".
When you get to the rock and metal vocal coaching business, the situation gets much worse. Many coaches are just phonies spouting nonsense , let's say about safe way of rasp.(Peple claiming that James did not use proper technique to do his Awake vocals are just ignorant - I mean, of you try to sing like this without proper technique, you won't finish a phrase, let alone a song. Let alone a whole show. But even with proper technique, this is not sustainable - or it is, but in the same way as smoking two packs a day is sustainable. Some people live long and healthy lives even then, but this is because they were blessed with resilient body, not because they had utilized a safe cigarette smoking technique.)
There are some other rock and metal vocal coaches who are not complete crooks, but still just make their careers out of giving some pretty basic advice, like drinking tea, doing good warm-ups etc. When it comes to complicated issues like navigating passagio, they are clueless. Most of them would probably say that singing with high larynx the way James does is ok, as long as "you do it properly". So, to finally make my point, even if James does use a coach, chances are the coach won't know what to do with his voice. In the end, with vocal coaches, as in many other lines of business, a more famous a coach, more likely he is to be not that competent, just good at making their clients feel good about themselves.
The other reason why James' decline is so marked is quite simple. He was gifted a once in a generation voice, not unlike, say, the greatest tenor of 20th century, Luciano Pavarotti. And if you go from a 16 cylinder voice (Bugatti) to just 8 (Bentley), people will notice it more than if you go from 8 to 6. James now might be just at quite ordinary 4 cylinders, but for many singers, this is where they started.
And finally, there are DT vocal melodies, with their often crazy high tessitura (something like the average pitch). It is not really the high notes James had to hit, like Fsharp in Learning to Live. It is just the sheer amount of time you have to spend hanging around high C or above to sing stuff like Images and Words. This is just not sustainable, unless your natural voice is even higher that a normal tenor, which James's is not. He just could sing it at the time so he did it, but any classically trained vocal coach would tell you that IaW songs would kill any tenor voice over time (compare that to ACOS, where James spends a lot more time in a normal tenor range, hoovering around E4, rarely going above G4 - how much more relaxed it sounds - it does because this was his sustainable range, this was where he really was Freddie 2nd ed.).
Add to that the amount of touring and you have a perfect recipe for disaster. Considering all of the above, you actually have to start marvel how, for so many years, James's voice held up so well, despite all the abuse. It seems that as late as in 2014 or 2015, he was still pretty impressive live, though he had always had off-nights.
As a fan, it grieves me as much as anyone to see him struggle like he does now. But he was always fighting an extremely uphill battle, the battle that almost anyone would have been bound to lose a lot earlier than James did.
And this is why I can't really stand some of the entitled and ignorant fans who keep bashing him and calling for him be fired. This is both mean and stupid. And hypocritical because, let's be honest, if overwhelming majority of people were in James's shoes, they would keep going too, like he does. (Indiscipline had a great post on what singers losing their voices go through in some other thread). Of course, wishing (and saying aloud) he would make the decision to retire on his own is something else entirely, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you choose your words carefully, ideally the same words you would use when talking to your old friend. Because, and I might be a bit romantic or sentimental, the guys who gave me so many great moments are, in a way, like my friends. It is definitely not a typical producer-consumer relationship.
Sorry for the rant (This is by far my longest post at DTF). But where else should I speak my mind about the burning issues that no one in my normal gives a rat's ass about?
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Great posts by crystalstars and Indiscipline. It's nice to read some thoughts by people who actually understand vocal technique while appreciating James and seeing his technical issues at the same time. I'll just add my two cents.
James's technique was never perfect but which rock or metal vocalist's is? I think there are some additional reasons causing his decline to be more pronounced than that of many of his fellow singers. The chief one of them is the one that also made him such a great band mate - his nice and agreeable character. Watching all these early live videos, you get the feeling that he was like "just throw anything at me, super-high range, rasp, screams - sure, I can do it. And if I am not feeling well? Ok, I¨ll suck it up and power through."
He was probably never the type of guy to tell his mates: "Not feeling well, I am going to take it easy tonight." Or "my voice is shot, can we cancel the show"? It's just not how he is made up.
Later, watching the videos from Awake tour, you just have to marvel at his resilience - right after the injury when he should have been resting, he was still giving it his all. It was a make or break tour for the band and he was not the kind of guy to let them down. Even much later, watching Live Scenes, you still see how hard he was going - even though his voice was at 100 % that night, he still cranked out some really good performances.
And thanks to Jaime Vendera, James's vocal coach later down the road, we know that James would sometimes go as far as using cortisone injections for important gigs when he felt his voice could fail him otherwise (according to Vendera, cortisone will allow you to sing like your voice has been magically repaired, but it will also make you feel kind of invincible - you are at the risk of pushing way too hard, because you just do not feel the pain that would stop you from that).
Which brings me to the other point - vocal coaches. For all we know, James might have been working with a coach all these years till today and he could still have been easily ruining his voice. The only vocal approach that is tried and tested over long period of times is bel canto - and even many opera vocal coaches will still get it wrong every now and then, ruining their singer's voices by making lighter voices push too hard (Renata Tebaldi being a notable example), making large voices do the opposite or overusing some not-always-so-sound pieces of advice, like "sing to the mask".
When you get to the rock and metal vocal coaching business, the situation gets much worse. Many coaches are just phonies spouting nonsense , let's say about safe way of rasp.(Peple claiming that James did not use proper technique to do his Awake vocals are just ignorant - I mean, of you try to sing like this without proper technique, you won't finish a phrase, let alone a song. Let alone a whole show. But even with proper technique, this is not sustainable - or it is, but in the same way as smoking two packs a day is sustainable. Some people live long and healthy lives even then, but this is because they were blessed with resilient body, not because they had utilized a safe cigarette smoking technique.)
There are some other rock and metal vocal coaches who are not complete crooks, but still just make their careers out of giving some pretty basic advice, like drinking tea, doing good warm-ups etc. When it comes to complicated issues like navigating passagio, they are clueless. Most of them would probably say that singing with high larynx the way James does is ok, as long as "you do it properly". So, to finally make my point, even if James does use a coach, chances are the coach won't know what to do with his voice. In the end, with vocal coaches, as in many other lines of business, a more famous a coach, more likely he is to be not that competent, just good at making their clients feel good about themselves.
The other reason why James' decline is so marked is quite simple. He was gifted a once in a generation voice, not unlike, say, the greatest tenor of 20th century, Luciano Pavarotti. And if you go from a 16 cylinder voice (Bugatti) to just 8 (Bentley), people will notice it more than if you go from 8 to 6. James now might be just at quite ordinary 4 cylinders, but for many singers, this is where they started.
And finally, there are DT vocal melodies, with their often crazy high tessitura (something like the average pitch). It is not really the high notes James had to hit, like Fsharp in Learning to Live. It is just the sheer amount of time you have to spend hanging around high C or above to sing stuff like Images and Words. This is just not sustainable, unless your natural voice is even higher that a normal tenor, which James's is not. He just could sing it at the time so he did it, but any classically trained vocal coach would tell you that IaW songs would kill any tenor voice over time (compare that to ACOS, where James spends a lot more time in a normal tenor range, hoovering around E4, rarely going above G4 - how much more relaxed it sounds - it does because this was his sustainable range, this was where he really was Freddie 2nd ed.).
Add to that the amount of touring and you have a perfect recipe for disaster. Considering all of the above, you actually have to start marvel how, for so many years, James's voice held up so well, despite all the abuse. It seems that as late as in 2014 or 2015, he was still pretty impressive live, though he had always had off-nights.
As a fan, it grieves me as much as anyone to see him struggle like he does now. But he was always fighting an extremely uphill battle, the battle that almost anyone would have been bound to lose a lot earlier than James did.
And this is why I can't really stand some of the entitled and ignorant fans who keep bashing him and calling for him be fired. This is both mean and stupid. And hypocritical because, let's be honest, if overwhelming majority of people were in James's shoes, they would keep going too, like he does. (Indiscipline had a great post on what singers losing their voices go through in some other thread). Of course, wishing (and saying aloud) he would make the decision to retire on his own is something else entirely, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you choose your words carefully, ideally the same words you would use when talking to your old friend. Because, and I might be a bit romantic or sentimental, the guys who gave me so many great moments are, in a way, like my friends. It is definitely not a typical producer-consumer relationship.
Sorry for the rant (This is by far my longest post at DTF). But where else should I speak my mind about the burning issues that no one in my normal gives a rat's ass about?
I like the I&W stuff as much as the next guy, but really? Not unlike Pavarotti? Seems a bit of a reach to be honest.
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:lol
I know, right?
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The other reason why James' decline is so marked is quite simple. He was gifted a once in a generation voice, not unlike, say, the greatest tenor of 20th century, Luciano Pavarotti. And if you go from a 16 cylinder voice (Bugatti) to just 8 (Bentley), people will notice it more than if you go from 8 to 6. James now might be just at quite ordinary 4 cylinders, but for many singers, this is where they started.
I like the I&W stuff as much as the next guy, but really? Not unlike Pavarotti? Seems a bit of a reach to be honest.
It might but it is not, IMO, as long as we are talking about pure natural talent. Both had extremely distinctive timbres and crazy amount of harmonics in their voices, something that does set a singer apart.
The difference in how the two talents were realized is something else though. Pavarotti is what happens if you take a great natural voice and couple it with perfect technique, good coaching and repertoire choice, plus careful vocal management. James is what happens if none of the four applies. It feels weird to say that he wasted his talent, considering the career he had, but in a way, he did. And no, IaW is not the best showcase of his true potential, for the reasons I have talked about before. It is just too damn high for almost any singer to be able to sound their best. I never realized how much talent James had used to have early on until I heard early live recordings of The Killing Hand (which was written for Charlie, so the tessitura is a lot more reasonable, despite all the high screams James uses to embelish the song).
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Most here are probably more engage / informed than me regarding LaBrie's ability to replicate studio stuff live.
I've always thought JLB was the weakest point in the band live simply bc he couldn't replicate his vocals very consistently after rupturing his vocal chords. My biggest issue, however, is in the last 10 years he's SO BREATHY live. Does every word have to sound like he's been asked by a doctor to breath deeply?
But I also sympathize with any technically gifted singer who's now in his 50's, 60's....the human voice wasn't meant to do at 58 what it could do at 23...simple as that. ANd frankly JLB's voice has remained pretty strong over the years since it "recovered". It's kind of a no-win situation for them.
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Great posts by crystalstars and Indiscipline. It's nice to read some thoughts by people who actually understand vocal technique while appreciating James and seeing his technical issues at the same time. I'll just add my two cents.
James's technique was never perfect but which rock or metal vocalist's is? I think there are some additional reasons causing his decline to be more pronounced than that of many of his fellow singers. The chief one of them is the one that also made him such a great band mate - his nice and agreeable character. Watching all these early live videos, you get the feeling that he was like "just throw anything at me, super-high range, rasp, screams - sure, I can do it. And if I am not feeling well? Ok, I¨ll suck it up and power through."
He was probably never the type of guy to tell his mates: "Not feeling well, I am going to take it easy tonight." Or "my voice is shot, can we cancel the show"? It's just not how he is made up.
Later, watching the videos from Awake tour, you just have to marvel at his resilience - right after the injury when he should have been resting, he was still giving it his all. It was a make or break tour for the band and he was not the kind of guy to let them down. Even much later, watching Live Scenes, you still see how hard he was going - even though his voice was at 100 % that night, he still cranked out some really good performances.
And thanks to Jaime Vendera, James's vocal coach later down the road, we know that James would sometimes go as far as using cortisone injections for important gigs when he felt his voice could fail him otherwise (according to Vendera, cortisone will allow you to sing like your voice has been magically repaired, but it will also make you feel kind of invincible - you are at the risk of pushing way too hard, because you just do not feel the pain that would stop you from that).
Which brings me to the other point - vocal coaches. For all we know, James might have been working with a coach all these years till today and he could still have been easily ruining his voice. The only vocal approach that is tried and tested over long period of times is bel canto - and even many opera vocal coaches will still get it wrong every now and then, ruining their singer's voices by making lighter voices push too hard (Renata Tebaldi being a notable example), making large voices do the opposite or overusing some not-always-so-sound pieces of advice, like "sing to the mask".
When you get to the rock and metal vocal coaching business, the situation gets much worse. Many coaches are just phonies spouting nonsense , let's say about safe way of rasp.(Peple claiming that James did not use proper technique to do his Awake vocals are just ignorant - I mean, of you try to sing like this without proper technique, you won't finish a phrase, let alone a song. Let alone a whole show. But even with proper technique, this is not sustainable - or it is, but in the same way as smoking two packs a day is sustainable. Some people live long and healthy lives even then, but this is because they were blessed with resilient body, not because they had utilized a safe cigarette smoking technique.)
There are some other rock and metal vocal coaches who are not complete crooks, but still just make their careers out of giving some pretty basic advice, like drinking tea, doing good warm-ups etc. When it comes to complicated issues like navigating passagio, they are clueless. Most of them would probably say that singing with high larynx the way James does is ok, as long as "you do it properly". So, to finally make my point, even if James does use a coach, chances are the coach won't know what to do with his voice. In the end, with vocal coaches, as in many other lines of business, a more famous a coach, more likely he is to be not that competent, just good at making their clients feel good about themselves.
The other reason why James' decline is so marked is quite simple. He was gifted a once in a generation voice, not unlike, say, the greatest tenor of 20th century, Luciano Pavarotti. And if you go from a 16 cylinder voice (Bugatti) to just 8 (Bentley), people will notice it more than if you go from 8 to 6. James now might be just at quite ordinary 4 cylinders, but for many singers, this is where they started.
And finally, there are DT vocal melodies, with their often crazy high tessitura (something like the average pitch). It is not really the high notes James had to hit, like Fsharp in Learning to Live. It is just the sheer amount of time you have to spend hanging around high C or above to sing stuff like Images and Words. This is just not sustainable, unless your natural voice is even higher that a normal tenor, which James's is not. He just could sing it at the time so he did it, but any classically trained vocal coach would tell you that IaW songs would kill any tenor voice over time (compare that to ACOS, where James spends a lot more time in a normal tenor range, hoovering around E4, rarely going above G4 - how much more relaxed it sounds - it does because this was his sustainable range, this was where he really was Freddie 2nd ed.).
Add to that the amount of touring and you have a perfect recipe for disaster. Considering all of the above, you actually have to start marvel how, for so many years, James's voice held up so well, despite all the abuse. It seems that as late as in 2014 or 2015, he was still pretty impressive live, though he had always had off-nights.
As a fan, it grieves me as much as anyone to see him struggle like he does now. But he was always fighting an extremely uphill battle, the battle that almost anyone would have been bound to lose a lot earlier than James did.
And this is why I can't really stand some of the entitled and ignorant fans who keep bashing him and calling for him be fired. This is both mean and stupid. And hypocritical because, let's be honest, if overwhelming majority of people were in James's shoes, they would keep going too, like he does. (Indiscipline had a great post on what singers losing their voices go through in some other thread). Of course, wishing (and saying aloud) he would make the decision to retire on his own is something else entirely, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you choose your words carefully, ideally the same words you would use when talking to your old friend. Because, and I might be a bit romantic or sentimental, the guys who gave me so many great moments are, in a way, like my friends. It is definitely not a typical producer-consumer relationship.
Sorry for the rant (This is by far my longest post at DTF). But where else should I speak my mind about the burning issues that no one in my normal gives a rat's ass about?
There's a lot of love in that post, Animal, and it's really commendable. There is also some love-driven hyperbole (I'm ok with everything love-driven and definitely a sucker for hyperbole per se) and a handful of misconceptions about belcanto/Tebaldi/Pavarotti I won't address here lest boring everyone to tears (but I would love to discuss in another thread or at the pub). I'd like to point out a couple of things though:
1) Comparing opera singers' careers and modus operandi (no pun intended) to not opera singers' ones never helps. Every aspect and focus are different (again, a tale for another thread, but - without going into the physical mechanics - just think about decibels, frequency and venue of performance, pay grade, etc.) the same way, say, a marathon runner and a 100m dasher are different.
I'd say even comparing rock singers' careers would not be much productive. For example, on a post above, Stadler (without making unfair comparisons, mind you) was talking about Plant, his singing intelligence, and the way he's still able (at 75 I believe) to excellently pick his spots. Well, Mr Plant (please Stads stop me whenever I'm incorrect) had a first part of career in which he basically conquered the world by unsustainable singing i.e. the vocal deal with the devil. When Zep disbanded he was roughly the same age James was when recording Awake and basically range-shot and coarse. Now, I don't know what Plant did to "recover" or resist age, but I know Plant - from 1980 on - could definitely afford to sing whatever he liked, in the key and range he pleased, whenever he felt like, and to have every single component of the recording/performing/touring experience catered to his needs, the needs of a legend. James, not for unfairness but for the nature of the beast, never had such luxury. On the other hand, Bruce had a workhorse career in a phenomenally consistent shape, but then again Bruce is basically technique and energy incarnate. Then there's Kiske, but the jury is still out about wether he's actually a human being. See? Comparing careers is fun, but it hardly helps to analyse problems.
2) No matter what sort of vocal coach they employ, the vocalists we are talking about are world class singers spending decades in symbiosis with an instrument they know inside out, and I promise no coach can force them to take dangerous paths without their fully aware consent. It's always a deal made weighing losses and gains. The problem nowadays is we are dealing for the fist time in history, hence with no previous operative experience, with The 60/70 Years Old Touring Rock-Metal Vocalist, which could be said is as much a singularity as a 60/70 years old pornstar.
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The other reason why James' decline is so marked is quite simple. He was gifted a once in a generation voice, not unlike, say, the greatest tenor of 20th century, Luciano Pavarotti. And if you go from a 16 cylinder voice (Bugatti) to just 8 (Bentley), people will notice it more than if you go from 8 to 6. James now might be just at quite ordinary 4 cylinders, but for many singers, this is where they started.
I like the I&W stuff as much as the next guy, but really? Not unlike Pavarotti? Seems a bit of a reach to be honest.
It might but it is not, IMO, as long as we are talking about pure natural talent. Both had extremely distinctive timbres and crazy amount of harmonics in their voices, something that does set a singer apart.
The difference in how the two talents were realized is something else though. Pavarotti is what happens if you take a great natural voice and couple it with perfect technique, good coaching and repertoire choice, plus careful vocal management. James is what happens if none of the four applies. It feels weird to say that he wasted his talent, considering the career he had, but in a way, he did. And no, IaW is not the best showcase of his true potential, for the reasons I have talked about before. It is just too damn high for almost any singer to be able to sound their best. I never realized how much talent James had used to have early on until I heard early live recordings of The Killing Hand (which was written for Charlie, so the tessitura is a lot more reasonable, despite all the high screams James uses to embelish the song).
It's hard to compare the talent of two individuals who are performing in two entirely different traditions at two entirely different levels.
It's even harder when in the same breath you are saying that (presumably because of a highly inconsistent body of work as a whole) one of the two being compared didn't have good coaching, perfect technique, vocal management etc. Ultimately you are saying someone's VERY small sample size showed that his gifts were comparable to someone who performed at an exceedingly high level for decades. It's just a *really* tough comparison to make. Usually I think we think of people having incredible talent because of their high performance over a period of time. This is why we think of Pavarotti in the way we do. There are cases in which someone's star burns bright for a very short period of time and we are left wondering 'what if?' But is that really how people viewed JLB back in the period you reference and do they even think that now? You're really in the minority in this one.
I guess the way I think of it is different. I haven't heard the JLB sample set you have in mind, but if I did and were blown away by it I would think of it more as promise or potential rather than generational talent that rivals the all time greats in a foreign genre. In a sense it is like my trying to compare Petrucci's talent to Segovia's (and even that is not the greatest analogy because Petrucci, unlike JLB, has been an undeniable Guitar God for so long). How do you even compare the two given they're not speaking the same language...at all. They're being asked to do entirely different things for entirely different audiences with different expectations.
Saying JLB had immense promise/potential in the early part of his career seems more appropriate. And had X, Y and Z been different, he could have been one of the all-time greats in rock and heavy music. Just hard for me to see the comparison you made for a variety of reasons.
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Now, I don't know what Plant did to "recover" or resist age, but I know Plant - from 1980 on - could definitely afford to sing whatever he liked, in the key and range he pleased, whenever he felt like, and to have every single component of the recording/performing/touring experience catered to his needs, the needs of a legend. James, not for unfairness but for the nature of the beast, never had such luxury. On the other hand, Bruce had a workhorse career in a phenomenally consistent shape, but then again Bruce is basically technique and energy incarnate. Then there's Kiske, but the jury is still out about wether he's actually a human being. See? Comparing careers is fun, but it hardly helps to analyse problems.
Phenomenal posts with much to discuss, just wanted to further elaborate on this here: All the metal guys in their fifties who regularly get cited as an example of a perfectly preserved voice, like Kiske, Roy Khan, Russell Allen and so forth, have all for various reasons strayed away from the road schedule of the typical working metal vocalist like James, or indeed Bruce. Bruce Dickinson is the only example I can think of who really did the thing, because afaik he was still a road warrior during his longer break from Maiden. One guy out of hundreds who have done the lifestyle and paid the price with their voices, even though a lot haven't paid as much as James has.
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On the other hand, Bruce had a workhorse career in a phenomenally consistent shape, but then again Bruce is basically technique and energy incarnate.
That he absolutely is! 💯
Then there's Kiske, but the jury is still out about wether he's actually a human being.
Oh, I can say with absolutely certainty that he definitely is NOT! :biggrin:
I have always been enamored of these more "operatic" style rock lead singers with strong tenor voices - the aforementioned, as well as Geoff Tate (what do you think of him?). I always counted James as one of them. They are all non-human, in fact I see them as angelic beings of a sort (how's that for love-driven hyperbole? :biggrin: ).
That said, it is tempting to compare singers between genres because as we know, the voice only works one way. I've been guilty of this too (having in the past described how a classical singer changes repertoire as they age, for example a coloratura soprano in her youth who gradually switches to more lyric soprano repertoire ::raises hand::). Coming from a classical background, but loving rock and metal, I couldn't help but fall in love with these singers. It's as if they cross the boundaries of space and time to create something so uniquely gorgeous in its unlikely combination (and some of them do have classical training, like Geoff Tate).
But you're correct in saying that the goals of the two genres can't be more different. It's literally a marathon vs a sprint. Or perhaps a marathon vs triathlon and winning the gymnastics all-around, all at once. What these guys do, and the challenges they're facing now, are entirely in a class by themselves.
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One thing to remember for Kiske is that when he left Helloween in 1993 he basically disappeared. He left the metal scene, he did the occasional collaboration here and there, but never did a world tour again until Avantasia (one singer out of many, he had just several songs to sing over a set) and eventually the Helloween reunion. He had years, no, literally DECADES to rest his voice and not subject it to strain and fatigue.
Granted, his ability is basically inhuman as Indiscipline pointed out, but it's an important detail to remember.
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I'm not sure Kiske is the best example. If the recent Helloween tours have showed us anything, it's that the singer with more touring experience keeps his voice in better shape throughout the tour and has less of a chance of becoming sick, and that's Andi Deris. And Andi has toured as much since early 90s as James LaBrie has.
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It's hard to compare the talent of two individuals who are performing in two entirely different traditions at two entirely different levels.
Saying JLB had immense promise/potential in the early part of his career seems more appropriate. And had X, Y and Z been different, he could have been one of the all-time greats in rock and heavy music. Just hard for me to see the comparison you made for a variety of reasons.
Thanks for expressing your views so clearly. I'll try to do the same. I was trying to cover a lot of ground with my first post so I was painting with broad strokes and maybe, as Indiscipline says, there was some love driven hyperbole.
Your points are entirely reasonable. I was a bit sloppy with my words - I really should not have used "talent" since a vocalist's talent is a rather multidimensional thing - natural quality and beauty of their voice, musicality, technical agility, vocal endurance and resilience, expressiveness, being good at recognizing and incorporating good advice...and we could go on. From that point of view, my comparison was certainly a stretch.
What I really had in mind when talking about talent was actually only the first dimension, something that is unique to vocalists only - the natural quality of their instruments. Glad you mentioned Petrucci and Segovia (as a classical guitarist who dabbled in playing electric, I guess I get the analogy here. I actually think it is a pretty good one, as long as we are aware of limit any analogy necessarily has). Petrucci's instrument is EBMM with Messa amps, Segovia's was, among others, Hauser. Now, there is no doubt that in the hands of someone less skilled than these two guitar greats, the said instrument would sound nowhere near so good. But we would still recognize they are great instruments. The same can be said about Steinway pianos or Guarneri violins played be less than stellar players.
It's kind of same with voices. When I am listening to early recordings of The Killing Hand, my take is James did use to possess an exceptional instrument, a vocal equivalent of being gifted a Stradivarius violin. It was just a function of his anatomy. But the way he used this instrument is something entirely different - as much as I love these recordings, I can hear his technical shortcomings even in those. And I never liked some of his stylistic or technical choices. But the sound he was capable of (when using his range optimally) was certainly glorious (to my ears) and the amount of upper harmonics, a ring in the voice, was through the roof. As I said, I hadn't heard it with IaW or Awake, I only recognized this quality after listening to early recordings The Killing Hand and A Change of Seasons.
Of course, as any such appraisal, even this one is necessarily subjective. But I hope this additional clarification makes more sense than the original post. As my reasoning makes clear, there might be many people, who, anatomically, might have instruments potentially as great as Pavarotti, but we would never consider the talented singers as they might be either entirely unmusical, or not enough in tune with their bodies to nail even basic technique or downright tone deaf. In the same manner, there are many great singers who were gifted much more ordinary instruments.
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There's a lot of love in that post, Animal, and it's really commendable. There is also some love-driven hyperbole (I'm ok with everything love-driven and definitely a sucker for hyperbole per se) and a handful of misconceptions about belcanto/Tebaldi/Pavarotti I won't address here lest boring everyone to tears (but I would love to discuss in another thread or at the pub). I'd like to point out a couple of things though:
1) Comparing opera singers' careers and modus operandi (no pun intended) to not opera singers' ones never helps. Every aspect and focus are different (again, a tale for another thread, but - without going into the physical mechanics - just think about decibels, frequency and venue of performance, pay grade, etc.) the same way, say, a marathon runner and a 100m dasher are different.
I'd say even comparing rock singers' careers would not be much productive. For example, on a post above, Stadler (without making unfair comparisons, mind you) was talking about Plant, his singing intelligence, and the way he's still able (at 75 I believe) to excellently pick his spots. Well, Mr Plant (please Stads stop me whenever I'm incorrect) had a first part of career in which he basically conquered the world by unsustainable singing i.e. the vocal deal with the devil. When Zep disbanded he was roughly the same age James was when recording Awake and basically range-shot and coarse. Now, I don't know what Plant did to "recover" or resist age, but I know Plant - from 1980 on - could definitely afford to sing whatever he liked, in the key and range he pleased, whenever he felt like, and to have every single component of the recording/performing/touring experience catered to his needs, the needs of a legend. James, not for unfairness but for the nature of the beast, never had such luxury. On the other hand, Bruce had a workhorse career in a phenomenally consistent shape, but then again Bruce is basically technique and energy incarnate. Then there's Kiske, but the jury is still out about wether he's actually a human being. See? Comparing careers is fun, but it hardly helps to analyse problems.
2) No matter what sort of vocal coach they employ, the vocalists we are talking about are world class singers spending decades in symbiosis with an instrument they know inside out, and I promise no coach can force them to take dangerous paths without their fully aware consent. It's always a deal made weighing losses and gains. The problem nowadays is we are dealing for the fist time in history, hence with no previous operative experience, with The 60/70 Years Old Touring Rock-Metal Vocalist, which could be said is as much a singularity as a 60/70 years old pornstar.
Thank you for your insights, Indiscipline. As I already said in the response to TheBarstoolWarrior, I was trying to cover too much ground in my original post. So there indeed was a lot of hyperbole and simplification. And some points might have come off differently than intended. So I'll try to clarify (at the risk of killing even those few that might have survived so far with another shot of concentrated nerd-style boredom).
1) I believe comparisons can make sense as long as we are entirely clear about the generalities that are the same and specifics that are different - and how all these affect the result. All singers have some things in common. They use their voice, which, being dependent on anatomy, is a finite source. The longetivity is positively affected by using sustainable technique and hitting the sweet-spot between overusing and under-training one's voice, healhy lifestyle choices etc. The reasons I mentioned opera singers is that they can rely on at least some tried and tested principles, as this style has been around for quite a long time (although it has been subject to changes, as anything). Even then, they still can ruin their voices, even if they try their best to get everything right - after all, vocals is the most arcane instrument to learn or coach and human body is fickle.
From that point of view, rock/metal singing is still a very young art, there is much more trial and error. As you mentioned, there are no historical precedents to touring metal vocalist in their 60's. They are also subject to the same corporeal fickleness, no matter how hard they try to get everything right. They often make unsustainable choices for stylistic reasons (like James spending so much time in stratoshere or using a lot of rasp, unlike many vocalists he is often compared to). And finally, we get much more variance in how they can realistically manage under-training/overusing sweet-spot. The touring schedules and amount of breaks they can afford to take can vary wildly, depending on an individual singer's or band's circumstances. DT always seemed like a pretty extreme band in this regard - grueling schedule with 5-6 shows a week, long sets, demanding repertoire.
Anyway, back to the main point. I used opera singers to show that things are not as clear cut as "if you listen to your coach, get your technique right, don't live like a party animal, your voice will be ok". Sometimes, using more general comparisons can help to illustrate the main point better than going with the ones that are more kind to kind (even though, for its clumsy execution, my original post is not a good demonstration of that).
2) I fully agree with that. Coaches are extremely unlikely to make singers take paths the singers would consider dangerous. But what at least some of them might be likely to do is failing to say "I don't think you should do this" when dealing with a client who is dead set about something they want (and, even worse, a client they really like or are too afraid to lose). They are human after all.
And little bit beside these points: I'd be interested to hear your take as to what Bruce Dickinson is doing right, technically, that allows him to endure aging better than most. I tended to assume that his longetivity was just a function of a being blessed with more robust voice and, maybe, playing fewer shows per week when on a tour. He also has this gritty husky timbre, which seems less likely to be affected by time. But no doubt you'll be able to discern much more than I am here.
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I'm not sure Kiske is the best example. If the recent Helloween tours have showed us anything, it's that the singer with more touring experience keeps his voice in better shape throughout the tour and has less of a chance of becoming sick, and that's Andi Deris. And Andi has toured as much since early 90s as James LaBrie has.
That's a good point about Andi, but here's where I'll agree with Indiscipline (to paraphrase) about these types of comparisons being "unhelpful", and Animal's assertion that (to paraphrase again) voices inherently come with different "natural qualities". Andi has a much heavier voice, and possibly a more naturally resilient one. I would throw it out on the table that, though he sings in the tenor range, he may actually be a high baritone who has figured out how to blend falsetto into his top range, extending it (big speculation here). At the very least he's a heavier tenor (pertaining to the vocal cords, it means literally thicker, larger cords) who possesses a strong natural resilience. Heavier voices also have their "breaks" (between registers) in a different place from their lighter or higher-placed counterparts. Michael Kiske sustains such a relentlessly high tessitura because of this. For example, Andi's "break" (into head voice/lighter mechanism) may happen around C or D, while Michael's may happen around G above the staff. This is how he is able to comfortably live all day up there.
As for MK cancelling due to illness, that is neither here nor there. Anyone can get sick, and depending on how sick, a smart singer will cancel. Any singer with a reliable technique can sing through a cold, and this is often inevitable, but something far worse like flu or covid that affects the lungs is a different story. As for what his situation was, we just don't know.
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I have always been enamored of these more "operatic" style rock lead singers with strong tenor voices - the aforementioned, as well as Geoff Tate (what do you think of him?). I always counted James as one of them. They are all non-human, in fact I see them as angelic beings of a sort (how's that for love-driven hyperbole? :biggrin: ).
I only own a couple QR albums and I never watched the man live, so mine is gonna be a pretty uninformed and ignorant opinion I'd rather spare you and other fans. *smiles*
And little bit beside these points: I'd be interested to hear your take as to what Bruce Dickinson is doing right, technically, that allows him to endure aging better than most. I tended to assume that his longetivity was just a function of a being blessed with more robust voice and, maybe, playing fewer shows per week when on a tour. He also has this gritty husky timbre, which seems less likely to be affected by time. But no doubt you'll be able to discern much more than I am here.
Again, and I can't stress this enough, my opinion is worth crap in general and more crap in particular without having the artists in question under drill by the piano. Now that I feel more comfortable ...
Bruce has been gifted with great genetics regarding muscular fiber, stamina and endurance; he is in fact - just like another Bruce across the pond - the most animated human being I have ever witnessed on a stage. Beyond that, he's an athlete (I think he practices fencing, please correct me, informed people) and an athlete's regime and discipline are the main voice preserving factors as far as I'm concerned. Regarding technique: his larynx is always inclined and he always sets the perfect amount of space required right on the inhaling phase, and those are unequivocable signs of operatic (i.e. correct if you care for longevity) training. But first of all - because everything starts and ends with the abdomen - please observe the man's constant and both fluid and strong abdominal work . It's been a 40 years ongoing masterclass.
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Regarding technique: his larynx is always inclined and he always sets the perfect amount of space required right on the inhaling phase, and those are unequivocable signs of operatic (i.e. correct if you care for longevity) training.
This (in bold) is exactly what James doesn't do! And to his detriment.
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Regarding technique: his larynx is always inclined and he always sets the perfect amount of space required right on the inhaling phase, and those are unequivocable signs of operatic (i.e. correct if you care for longevity) training.
This (in bold) is exactly what James doesn't do! And to his detriment.
Would you say he did that better around Score period or was this always an issue? I remember you said that technically, he seemed at his best in that time, and I agree. He seemed most relaxed, hitting notes more comfortably than even in the early 90's
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I mean, if you're not going to incline your larynx, then why even bother? :)
(I kid; I'm actually fascinated by this conversation. I love the science of things like this that so many of us take for granted.)
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Me too, Stadler. When I see crystalstars17, Indiscipline and Animal discussing singing particulars, I feel richer for witnessing it.
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https://youtu.be/HU6dCZto-UE?list=OLAK5uy_ncYQNzm1hJwOtdxa6ee7jLIZC78f2Z-kA&t=83
Found this album i never heard JLB did vocals for just now :laugh:
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https://youtu.be/HU6dCZto-UE?list=OLAK5uy_ncYQNzm1hJwOtdxa6ee7jLIZC78f2Z-kA&t=83 (https://youtu.be/HU6dCZto-UE?list=OLAK5uy_ncYQNzm1hJwOtdxa6ee7jLIZC78f2Z-kA&t=83)
Found this album i never heard JLB did vocals for just now :laugh:
Some of the lyrics are awkward, but, otherwise, I really like that album.
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There's a book that goes with that one, I think?
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https://youtu.be/HU6dCZto-UE?list=OLAK5uy_ncYQNzm1hJwOtdxa6ee7jLIZC78f2Z-kA&t=83
Found this album i never heard JLB did vocals for just now :laugh:
I like the album, I Am The Point has some excellent JLB vocals. I also have the book, but unfortunately haven't read it.
There's also a second book of the same name with its own album as well.
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I have always been enamored of these more "operatic" style rock lead singers with strong tenor voices - the aforementioned, as well as Geoff Tate (what do you think of him?). I always counted James as one of them. They are all non-human, in fact I see them as angelic beings of a sort (how's that for love-driven hyperbole? :biggrin: ).
That said, it is tempting to compare singers between genres because as we know, the voice only works one way. I've been guilty of this too (having in the past described how a classical singer changes repertoire as they age, for example a coloratura soprano in her youth who gradually switches to more lyric soprano repertoire ::raises hand::). Coming from a classical background, but loving rock and metal, I couldn't help but fall in love with these singers. It's as if they cross the boundaries of space and time to create something so uniquely gorgeous in its unlikely combination (and some of them do have classical training, like Geoff Tate).
Okay, I am a singer. I am NOT professionally trained, and to all of you who are, my opinion wouldn't mean a thing in the discussion of how a person sings. But, I am a historian of Queensryche, and helped write their only biography, so I have a pretty good understanding of Tate's history as a singer, and what he does. My wife IS a professionally trained singer however. So she has dumped some commentary in my ears over the years, not only to help me get better, but to understand the complexities of voice.
Proud husband moment -- she had a short-lived metal project called Trans World Tribe. You can check her out doing some originals and covers here - https://transworldtribe.bandcamp.com/album/defiance-e-p
(my favorite original is "Roller Coaster" and I LOVE her cover of "Hallowed Be Thy Name" - eat your heart out Bruce!)
Regarding Tate, he was trained by the late Maestro David Kyle. Like many of the Maestro's students, he had a way of teaching his students how to "push" their voice in a way that is very much debated whether it is healthy or not. But, Tate's work with David Kyle didn't last long. He took lessons, got the basics, and then did his own thing. Tate's status as a tenor or baritone has also been a bit of a debate. I always thought he was a tenor, and then after people showed a lot to me, changed my mind. But there is no debate (for me) that during his prime (1983-1992), while his range declined, his voice was absolutely powerful, rich, and he had excellent control. Probably the finest combination of all those following Freddie Mercury and Steve Perry, imo. Tate, in a way, created a style of singing. Not completely, because everyone is influenced by each other. But when I was doing my new book on Queensryche (see the QR thread for more on that) that is coming out in March/April this year, I spoke briefly with Michael Kiske of Helloween, who certainly was blown away by seeing QR in 1984 and what Tate was doing as a singer. Dickinson was blown away by what Tate could do live...stuff Bruce couldn't do without a lot of effort, Tate was just doing.
While Tate may have declined a lot over the years, with smoking being a factor, age, alcohol consumption, etc., I still think his prime as a vocalist is probably THE voice in hard rock/metal for that period. No one other than Mercury or Perry, from 1983-1992, could touch Tate. And since QR was generally considered heavy metal from 83-88, I'd argue that Tate was the "best" or at least most gifted METAL singer of that period.
Over the years, as my wife has observed, Tate's technique got sloppy, then better, then sloppy, etc. It's clear he's worked at his craft again over the last several years. But his range in his head voice is very limited these days. He uses falsetto to hit the high notes, which he only experimented with in the past (he tried it in the 2003-2005 timeframe, abandoned it, and now is doing it again much more convincingly). Sorta how Halford used to use his head voice to hit high stuff, and now he's mostly falsetto.
Anyway, just some rambles from a baritone cover band singer who got some applause doing 90s stuff, who absolutely loves tenor singers.
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Tate was the gold standard during those years. I mean, that whole genre of singing is named after him.
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Anyway, just some rambles from a baritone cover band singer who got some applause doing 90s stuff, who absolutely loves tenor singers.
Thank you for your knowledge!
I'm not familiar with David Kyle or his methods, but some of the old classical teachers in the twentieth century were known for pushing voices into "bigger" dramatic repertoire either before they were ready or beyond their instrument's natural capabilities (not referring to talent here but the relative "size" of the voice and the niche it was best suited for). I remember for example having two lessons (in the early 2000's) with a coach who wanted to "push" my lighter soprano voice, best suited to Mozart and Handel, into the Puccini and Verdi heroines of La Boheme and La Traviata. :omg: I walked away quickly and never went back. So I know these guys are out there still, but it was rather more common in the 20th century.
I've seen a lot of debate as to whether Geoff Tate is a baritone or a tenor and to my ears (trained singer, but not a coach so take with a grain of salt) he is what the musical theater world would call a "baritenor" - that voice that falls right on the cusp and can go either way - perfectly suited to the title role in The Phantom of the Opera (which I would pay an obscene amount to hear him sing). In the classical realm he would likely be a larger tenor voice, not a dramatic tenor, but a "spinto" tenor (the term, ironically, means "pushed") and refers not only to the voice but also to the style of singing. So maybe Kyle was onto something, maybe not, and perhaps we'll never know (and as Tate is not a classical singer, it's largely irrelevant).
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Really great posts here, and I love all the love shown for Labrie here. I’ve also been alarmed by his past few tours and I just really hope he get the vocal coaching he needs to get back in shape. Hopefully this next phase in DT history will help with that. It’s a new chapter for DT, and I’d really love it if James comes out with one of his best performances (in recent times) both on the new album and the tour that follows.