Explain This Passage to Me, Please.

[emindead]

bösk1 pointed out this in another thread and got me curious on something:

(...) Jesus and his Apostles preached that the only, exclusive way a person can be saved is through Jesus.  John 14:6:  "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (...).

1. There's no other way getting into Heaven if it is not by Jesus?
2. How literal must we take this passage then?

[bosk1]

1.  Yes
2.  Very

[Adami]

1. No
2. Not at all




Sorry bosk, just felt like the thread would die if I didn't.

[bosk1]

We each have our role to play.

[Nigerius Rex]

I think there is another way and it has to do with the free market and libertarianism.

[Adami]

I think there is another way and it has to do with the free market and libertarianism.

 

By far one of your best posts.

[bosk1]

I could be mean and point out that that's not saying much.  But I won't.  Because that would be mean.

[Nigerius Rex]

That would be mean.

[yeshaberto]

Not as mean as saying that Jesus is the only way....













even though my answer is also yes and very

[Adami]

Well we can't take it THAT literally.


Or else the only way to get to heaven is to find jesus' body, cut it in half and walk through it!

[sirbradford117]

Because Christ entered the world as a human, we are now able to understand and reach the non-human Father.  Simple as that.

[Adami]

So before jesus, no one reached heaven? It was just empty?

[bosk1]

So before jesus, no one reached heaven? It was just empty?

That question calls for a LONG, complicated answer.  I'll try to do the short version.  Here's an interesting quote that attempts to explain it from one angle: 

"Paul mentions in Romans 3 that Old Testament believers were forgiven "in the forbearance of God" (Rom 3:25). A forbearance is a postponement on a debt—like when a student graduates from college but doesn't have a good enough job to repay his student loans, the feds may say "We'll give you five years— but then you'll have to start paying." In the Old Testament, God gave his people a forbearance until Christ could come and pay their sin-debt for them. In this way they could avoid the punishment for their sins, even though Christ had not yet died for them.

When Paul introduces his doctrine of justification by faith alone in this same chapter, be backs it up with the Old Testament, saying it's a "righteousness from God apart from law," but one "to which the Law and the Prophets testify" (Rom 3:21). The "Law and the Prophets" is a technical term for the Hebrew Scriptures, our Old Testament Paul specifically backs up his teaching by citing Abraham's justification by faith from Genesis (Rom 4) and David's speaking of the forgiveness of sins in Psalm 32 (Rom 4:7-8).

I think that is actually a pretty decent summary without getting too deep.  Essentially, it was God's plan all along that Jesus would pay for the sins of all mankind.  So for those who lived according to faith in Him prior to Jesus, God forstalled judgment until Christ died and actually paid the price that allowed them to be saved. 

Put another way, God forordained it before creation, so it was as good as a done deal.  This, I believe is why in revelation, it describes Jesus as "the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world."  (Rev 13:8)

[Adami]

Seems like an odd decision, but it's cool.

[El Barto]

What about the Apache?

[Quadrochosis]

What about the people who were alive before the time of Moses?

[Adami]

What about the people who were alive before the time of Moses?

I think they count with what bosk said.

[bosk1]

What about the Apache?

One of the most awesome agents of death, destruction, and mayhem ever invented.  AH-64 Apache

What about the people who were alive before the time of Moses?

I think they count with what bosk said.

Yes. 

[Quadrochosis]

What about the people who were alive before the time of Moses?

I think they count with what bosk said.

Oh alright, I thought he was talking about the Jewish God specifically.

[bosk1]

What about the people who were alive before the time of Moses?

I think they count with what bosk said.

Oh alright, I thought he was talking about the Jewish God specifically.

  Same God.  Different time, but same God.

[Quadrochosis]

What about the people who were alive before the time of Moses?

I think they count with what bosk said.

Oh alright, I thought he was talking about the Jewish God specifically.

  Same God.  Different time, but same God.

I understand that, I misread your post, I thought you were only talking about the Jewish people, and not everybody before the Jews.

[El Barto]

The Apache question is still valid.  They were around long after Christ, but had no actual means of knowing anything about that whole deal.  I'm assuming they weren't punished for their own, God given ignorance. 

[Adami]

The Apache question is still valid.  They were around long after Christ, but had no actual means of knowing anything about that whole deal.  I'm assuming they weren't punished for their own, God given ignorance. 

God makes himself known. They chose to not recognize it.

[bosk1]

Barto, I could speculate, but I won't since speculation is all it would be, and my guesswork plus a dollar might not even get you a cup o' joe.

Here's the only Bible passage I am aware of that kinda-sorta discusses the issue.  I'll let you read it and draw your own conclusions, from Romans 1 and 2:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

I similar passage occurs in Romans where Paul is addressing Greeks in Athens who thought they would more of less use the "let's cover all our bases" approach and having altars to every god they were aware of.  Paul takes it upon himself to preach to them the God they did not know (from Acts 17):

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

      TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

   Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood[c] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

[Jamesman42]

bösk1 pointed out this in another thread and got me curious on something:

(...) Jesus and his Apostles preached that the only, exclusive way a person can be saved is through Jesus.  John 14:6:  "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (...).

1. There's no other way getting into Heaven if it is not by Jesus?
2. How literal must we take this passage then?

1. Yes.
2. How non-literal can you take it?

[Progmetty]

The middle man thing is the only thing that puts me off about Christianity, the general repeated notion that humans are not worthy of directly contacting God to ask for forgiveness, you need the priest or Jesus to get into heaven and so on, it would really make me feel inferior, I'd better off burn in hell with dignity.

[Adami]

The middle man thing is the only thing that puts me off about Christianity, the general repeated notion that humans are not worthy of directly contacting God to ask for forgiveness, you need the priest or Jesus to get into heaven and so on, it would really make me feel inferior, I'd better off burn in hell with dignity.

 

[Arcaeus]

Then enjoy your eternal damnation, sinner.

[Progmetty]

Nah I'll be just fine.
But your post was pretty metal

[hefdaddy42]

How literal must we take this passage then?

It depends on how seriously you take the Gospel of John.

[Dr. SeaWolf]

How literally SHOULD one take the Gospel of John?  I think I remember hearing in an interview with Bart Ehrmann that it's the most "suspect" of the gospels, from a scholarly perspective.

[bosk1]

How literally SHOULD one take the Gospel of John?  I think I remember hearing in an interview with Bart Ehrmann that it's the most "suspect" of the gospels, from a scholarly perspective.

IMO, very.  I don't hold Ehrmann's opinion on the subject in very high regard, obviously.  But even if one were to ignore that book altogether, there are plenty of other passages that discuss the exclusivity of salvation through Jesus.  John 14:6 is just the most blunt and succinct.

[Dr. SeaWolf]

Where else in the Gospels does Jesus imply that he is the only way to get saved?

[emindead]

What about the Apache?

One of the most awesome agents of death, destruction, and mayhem ever invented.  AH-64 Apache

Believe it or not, the AH-64 Apache was the only poster that ever hanged on my bedroom's wall.

Weird, I think bösk1 is spot on regarding his answer about Heaven...

For his other answer, though... El Barto pretty much pointed out where I was wanting to get.

[hefdaddy42]

How literally SHOULD one take the Gospel of John?  I think I remember hearing in an interview with Bart Ehrmann that it's the most "suspect" of the gospels, from a scholarly perspective.

Well, I didn't say "literally."  I said "seriously."  But I can see where the confusion would arise.